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Whiskey_Mystic
15th May 2012, 19:00
This thread was triggered by a comment that Ishtar made.




But I won't waste time talking to someone who won't listen because they're convinced they have the full story. There's nothing I can do with that.

Thank you again for your eloquence, Ishtar. This pretty much sums up my entire frustration with Avalon lately. I'd been searching for the words to describe it and you nailed it.

There are certain levels of training that people need to have in order for a community like this to thrive. This is why I am always going on and on about nonviolent communication. The other foundation that we all need in a forum so extraordinary as this one is the Zen concept of Beginner's Mind as taught by Shunryu Suzuki.

Without these basic skills, our community continues to chase its tail in a cycle of reaction. We could be an example to the rest of the internet of how to conduct ourselves with respect for each other.

Maybe I will start a thread on this again. It hasn't gotten much traction before, but I think it very important.
__________________________________________________ _____

Ok, so I did start a new thread. To focus, this thread is for a discussion on how Avalon can be a shining beacon of civility and shared wisdom to an internet that seems to do more bickering and back biting than actually moving us towards the greater levels of understanding of the human condition and our place in the greater scheme of things.

Avalon has a tremendous amount of wisdom to share within itself, but we keep getting in our own way. Let's see where this goes.

Ishtar
15th May 2012, 19:17
What a great title for a thread, Whiskey!

I'm not sure if this is going off at a tangent, and whether you want to establish a more broader based discussion first, but, in the spirit of helping to get this thread going, I'd like to make just one suggestion upfront that I think would help enormously.

On my forum, we don't allow ad hominem attacks ... at all, not ever, not under any circumstances. People can attack the material or the content of the thread as much as they like. They can attack the argument. But they cannot make personal attacks on each other.

I find this makes a huge difference... not least, because, I have to say, most of us consenting adults know how to conduct ourselves without being given a load of rules. But I established that rule because it is, as I've learned to my cost, one of the favoured techniques of disinformation agents ~ they gang up on forums to bully their target into submission to support their own agenda. These sorts of people are known as 'bushwhackers' and they are very deliberate in how they attack. They circle like sharks and they go for the jugular.

A certain Harvard-based (yes, I kid you not) group of bushwhackers used to rule whole fiefdoms of Wikipedia in its early days, and so I first came up against them during the Aryan invasion of India debate which did actually in the end, rewrite the history books and those pages of Wikipedia, no matter how hard the bushwhackers defended them. But it was a bruising process for everyone concerned.

We are in an information war, and these kinds of operatives are on this forum and I even do have the odd one on mine, from time to time. I tend to let them stay on, because I'd rather have them where I can see them. If I chuck them off, they'll only send somebody else and then I'd have to get to know a new person all over again. But as soon as there's any hint of ad hominems, they're bounced off.

I believe that if ad hominems were a fireable offence on here, discussions would be much more pleasant and more productive and enlightening, because the other thing is, when people feel personally under attack, they dig in and get entrenched in their positions. So for people to be able to grow intellectually and in their understanding ~ to be able to change their mind, in essence, without feeling they're losing face ~ it's necessary to protect the members with that kind of a rule.

Anyway, just pitching in really, just to get this excellent thread started.... well done, Whiskey...!

RMorgan
15th May 2012, 19:17
Hey mate,

Great thread!

Well, the first basic requirement to achieve a real evolution of the mind is to keep it open, while preserving a healthy sense of skepticism.

When a person is arrogant and believe that he/she has already achieved an absolute level of knowledge about everything, well, itīs the same thing as being blind, deaf and dumb.

Then thereīs no reason to be here in the first place.

People must have in mind that we discuss pretty complex stuff here, I mean, some top-level philosophic questions that even our most brilliant minds havenīt answered yet.

So, if the basic purpose of this forum is to be a healthy environment where we all can learn from each other, all of us must know that any level of arrogance isnīt welcomed, since we havenīt even scratched the surface of most problems discussed here.

I often wonder what would happen if the ancient Greek philosophers had such an amazing tool like the internet! What would they be able to achieve!

So, to sum up, be polite, respectful, humble and open-minded. Thatīs all we need for this forum to thrive! :)

Cheers,

Raf.

RunningDeer
15th May 2012, 20:08
"...how Avalon can be a shining beacon of civility and shared wisdom to an internet that seems to do more bickering and back biting than actually moving us towards the greater levels of understanding of the human condition and our place in the greater scheme of things."

Allow the definitions of Wisdom to flourishes by accepting that we all express in uniquely different ways: heart, humor, heart/mind, mind, Mind, Higher Self, Oneness of All, I Amness, satire (as long as it's not towards another), silliness, etc.

See all expressions as a rich, creative diversity. Allow for equality of methods in these teaching tools & approaches to reach those that come upon them in synchronistic timing.

Trust that the knowledge seeps into the layers of spirit and material being, wherever the Wisdom was destined to serve in that moment.

Wisdom is allowing.
Wisdom is accepting.
Wisdom is co-creation.
Wisdom is experimentation.
Wisdom is the courage to step out of one’s comfort zone.
Wisdom is courage to speak from one’s heart.
Wisdom is encouragement.
Wisdom is the gift of unspoken words.
Wisdom is the courage to step aside.
Wisdom is allowing the other to shine.
Wisdom is knowing when to leave it be.
Wisdom is teaching with a nod and a smile.
Wisdom is knowing when to take a stand.

Peace,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer (now RunningDeer)

Whiskey_Mystic
15th May 2012, 20:46
Ishtar,

I hear what you are saying. this is exactly why community foundation is so important. If people are grounded properly then they cannot be dragged into the whirlpool. Good provocateurs know just how to push our buttons and totally derail whatever productivity is happening. If we take responsibility for not reacting to the push of the button, then we cannot be derailed. I am easily frustrated myself , so I am as guilty as anyone on this point.

I think, for those who need it, Ruiz's The Four Agreements is a good starting point for learning not to react. Since everyone assumes that they are not the one that needs it, everyone should read it. If this were my classroom, it would be required.

Whiskey_Mystic
15th May 2012, 20:53
Raf,

You are so right. If I am convinced that I already know something or that my position is "right", then I have no room to learn. Flexibility is needed. If I am not willing to seriously challenge my own sacred cows, then I am done learning. Humility is very valuable for learning new things.

Ishtar
15th May 2012, 20:54
I think, for those who need it, Ruiz's The Four Agreements is a good starting point for learning not to react. Since everyone assumes that they are not the one that needs it, everyone should read it. If this were my classroom, it would be required.

I hadn't heard of Ruiz's Four Agreements, and so I Googled them and found that they derive from what looks to be a shaman, or shamanic practitioner from the Toltec tradition, Don Miguel Ruiz and they are:

agreement 1

Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

agreement 2

Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

agreement 3

Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

agreement 4

Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.

Thank you for introducing me to those four rules, Whiskey. They seem simple, but their roots go down deep into a well of wisdom.

Fred Steeves
15th May 2012, 20:55
Did any of ya'll ever have to sit at "the kid's table" when you were young at special family get together dinners? I hated it, and even though I was welcome to respectfully comment on the adult conversation at the main table, I discovered that I would soon become ignored if what I was saying didn't pass muster. Sometimes when I would persist anyway, mom had a way of discreetly giving me that "look"(LOL) that let it be known I was treading on thin ice, without being embarrassed family wide with a public admonishment.

There's an awful lot of energy crackling through the aether these days, we're living 24/7 in a giant pressure cooker. That goes for all of us, whether consciously realized or not.... But it's o.k.... If we can really make an effort to recognize, but cut ourselves some slack with the stupid sh!t we all do and say from time to time, that leads directly to having the same compassion for others when they say or do stupid sh!t.

Cheers All,http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Fred

Alex Laker
15th May 2012, 23:07
I am convinced that if we disagree, then neither of us is right.

DeDukshyn
15th May 2012, 23:32
Ok ... So Ishtar and Whiskey have the "full story" and the rest ... don't? ... ;-)

People (including myself) need to stop saying this and start trying to show it for the rest of us rather than complaining others "don't know" -- it's just another victim mentality. Everyone has a "whole story" story.

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

Rocky_Shorz
15th May 2012, 23:35
in a forum, people gather to discuss their ideas and opinions, the most important rule to remember is people react with anger to your words if it isn't what they believe, but that is someone who was awakened to beliefs outside of their box. let it settle in then continue the conversation...

if you reply with anger, a wall is built and it becomes personal...

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 00:06
Ok ... So Ishtar and Whiskey have the "full story" and the rest ... don't? ... ;-)

People (including myself) need to stop saying this and start trying to show it for the rest of us rather than complaining others "don't know" -- it's just another victim mentality. Everyone has a "whole story" story.

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

I'm not sure what you mean. I certainly don't have any kind of "full story" and do not claim to. I'm a student and always will be.

What I have done here is to open a dialog about how our community can have a stronger foundation. I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us.

DeDukshyn
16th May 2012, 00:16
... TRIM ...
I'm not sure what you mean. I certainly don't have any kind of "full story" and do not claim to. I'm a student and always will be.

What I have done here is to open a dialog about how our community can have a stronger foundation. I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us.


Perhaps I read too much into these words: (clarity edit) If one is to judge who does or doesn't have "the full story" - then the one judging would have to have the full story to determine this. All moot as it was intended as light gesture - hopefully communicated by the winky smiley ...


This thread was triggered by a comment that Ishtar made.




But I won't waste time talking to someone who won't listen because they're convinced they have the full story. There's nothing I can do with that.

Thank you again for your eloquence, Ishtar. This pretty much sums up my entire frustration with Avalon lately. ....

=======================


.... I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us

You mean like this below which I posted in the same post? I think I got what you were after and participated. And I appreciate with and agree with these efforts, else I would have steered clear ;-) Good initiative for sure!

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 00:25
We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>


I totally agree about the sandwiches. That kind of thing is just not helpful.

DeDukshyn
16th May 2012, 00:45
We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>


I totally agree about the sandwiches. That kind of thing is just not helpful.

I think in cases where someone does feel compelled to to interrupt a thread's intent with a potentially worthy non-constructive point that would be considered off topic, the best course of action would be to start a new thread with the new perspective, link to the original and then from the original to the new one, and invite the contraversial discussion to this new thread, that way everyone has access to both side if anyone so cares for that size of view, but at the same time the original thread starters topic stays on the topic of his intent. If we all considered this a little more, it may save the mods some time having to "split" threads. My 2 cents ;)

sygh
16th May 2012, 02:24
Thank you for starting this thread. It would be wonderful to see Avalon continue as a forum. So much is going on in the world today, so much pressure, so such strife, and so much disinformation being spewed out, it's hard to know what's bunk and what's solid. The fact is, our government, leastwise, here in the U.S. and the Federal Reserve has manipulated us and lied to us so many times, and about so many things, we no longer trust them to tell us anything of substance. That is the real problem I see, it's a matter of trust.

Further, many different groups of people out in the world are being told they are being personally attacked by other groups of people. This type of disinformation is a campaign aimed at dividing us. Let us be a beacon of light for those who find themselves rubbing their eyes while saying to themselves, this ain't the way it really is.

Maybe we can go forward by trying to make sure what we post really does have some substance to it by first checking the source. And even after checking the source and doing our homework before we post the information, we can still be ready to be open to debunking it -if necessary. Just trying to help.

One thing is for sure... its not bad to hope or work toward a better today, or a better future. Every sham or con is not a reflection of some sort of bad we have done, here at Avalon; the twisted image actually belongs to the grifter. Further, not every person trying to do something good is Superman or Superwoman. These people are only trying to do the best they can. Let us respect them and God grant us the wisdom to tell the difference.

Finally, this is Bill Ryan's forum and though Bill isn't frequenting the place much any more, it may just be we are keeping the forum going until such a time as he either comes back or, decides to pass the torch.

Oceans of Love,

Robin

UnrealDreams
16th May 2012, 02:36
I have seen this destructive behavior many times on this forum. Even some of the people who have commented in this thread are the perpetrators, yet they are clueless to this fact. The way that I avoid this is to state my opinion, and then be respectful of everyone else's opinion. IT IS THE BICKERING BACK AND FORTH THAT LOWERS THE QUALITY OF THE FORUM.

If you state your opinion, and then after another viewpoint is achieved, you are coming back into the thread to state the same opinion again in order to 'convince' everyone that your opinion is the correct opinion, then you are part of the problem. It lowers the readability of the thread and degrades the conversation. If your opinion is different than mine, I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to this different viewpoint, and I will thank you and go on about my day. We should all be able to accept other opinions and keep an open mind.

If you want to bicker back and forth, there is a great feature on this forum called a PM. You can use that feature in lieu of destroying the readability of a thread with your back and forth bickering.

I grew up in a rough area of town. There was a saying that I learned there that is true 99% of the time. "If you don't start any sh!t there won't be any sh!t". For me, back then this saying was put into practice as a matter of survival. I use this simple saying in my everyday life and it forces one to be respectful. It sounds so crude, but there is real wisdom in that saying. Respect is something that needs to be earned......but if you don't display respect you will never earn it.

peace and love to all-

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 03:10
Even some of the people who have commented in this thread are the perpetrators, yet they are clueless to this fact.

Perhaps, but perhaps they do realize they have done this. I myself have done this. Any of us can be tempted to try to have the last word when frustrated.

Thank you for your contribution.

write4change
16th May 2012, 05:34
This is a thread that a lot of people could benefit thinking about. That will be the reason it won't go very far. I still wish to express my appreciation for your attempt. Lately, it feels like this has turned into a really weird place. This threads that divide the issue of what is really masculine and feminine have really put me off. I read them to see who was doing what but have not commented in any of them.

Some stuff is now so off the wall that I feel like the intellectual integrity of the site is severely threatened. I personally do not want to be assiciated with sheer meaness and nonsenese. So I stay away which then creates a vacuum from my behavior and others like me that allows more craziness to be on display. It is threads like this that give me hope but I personally do not know what to do with my own feelings. When I am revolted I leave--I do not share.

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 05:55
Write4Change, when we first met you were so vocal and full of information and life experiences to share. I know you have had some physical challenges and cognitive stuff going on, but I have missed your voice here. I know that you have a lot that you could share regarding gender issues. I understand that you don't want to open yourself up to any backlash, but I hope you find a way to share. There are definitely people here that can connect with what you offer.

Debra
16th May 2012, 06:03
Whiskey_Mystic,

You are doing a fine job of moderating and evaluating the sparkling points that are coming forward here.

Just appreciating the thread, and agree wholeheartedly with those points that you are acknowledging from others.

I would probably add, to check in with what baggage you are bringing to the forum each day. For example, you are still fuming over a personal incident at work, and this can - unconsciously - creep into how you participate in a thread. Advice would be, to just be honest with yourself about it as you launch into responding. And if you so wish, share with us too (I think if we know - in a general sense - what might be shaping the tone of a post (not only the content) there is greater understanding between all and acceptance.

Cheers, Zebra

mgray
16th May 2012, 11:17
Thanks for the thoughtful thread. My one suggestion would be:

Check your ego at the homepage. That should bring civility to the fore.

Timreh
16th May 2012, 12:22
What one person believes or what is true for them may not be so for another..

Debating points of view can be interesting but argueing and tit for tat attacks not only feel awful but on forums they are immature and selfish.
There are many Wonderful and Exciting threads that people (me included) just close the door and walk away from because of what they see going on.. negativity and wasted space.

Heres hoping this forum can be steered into one of tolerance and respect, one that is highly esteemed and a benchmark for others on the internet!

Ilie started a helpful thread for anyone that hasn't seen..

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40854-Reporting-problematic-posts-or-private-messages&p=480747#post480747

Hello,

The moderation team does its best to keep this a positive and respectful place, but we cannot read all the forum all the time, so if you notice a problematic post and you receive an inappropriate PM (private message) please report it so we can have a look.

To report a post or a PM you need to click on this "http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/buttons/report-40b.png" button that you will find under each post or private message.

You will get to a new page where you will explain what the problem is and then click on "Send Report".

The moderation team will get a copy of the reported post or private message with your note attached and will take appropriate action. (We do not see private messages unless you report them. So if someone is causing your trouble via PM do not retaliate on the public forum, but rather report the PM).

(If you don't know what the posting guidelines are you can read them here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/faq.php?faq=avalonguidelines#faq_membershipguideli nes)

PS: If you report a duplicate thread or request a thread merge, please include in your description the links to the relevant Avalon threads :). It will make the task much faster for us.

PS2: Usually the moderators will respond pretty fast, but in some cases it may take 2 or 3 days before we have chance to check our notifications. (By "respond" I mean reading the report and taking appropriate action. We usually send a reply to a report only if more information is needed)

ceetee9
16th May 2012, 13:53
What a great title for a thread, Whiskey!

I'm not sure if this is going off at a tangent, and whether you want to establish a more broader based discussion first, but, in the spirit of helping to get this thread going, I'd like to make just one suggestion upfront that I think would help enormously.

On my forum, we don't allow ad hominem attacks ... at all, not ever, not under any circumstances. People can attack the material or the content of the thread as much as they like. They can attack the argument. But they cannot make personal attacks on each other.

I find this makes a huge difference... not least, because, I have to say, most of us consenting adults know how to conduct ourselves without being given a load of rules. But I established that rule because it is, as I've learned to my cost, one of the favoured techniques of disinformation agents ~ they gang up on forums to bully their target into submission to support their own agenda. These sorts of people are known as 'bushwhackers' and they are very deliberate in how they attack. They circle like sharks and they go for the jugular.

A certain Harvard-based (yes, I kid you not) group of bushwhackers used to rule whole fiefdoms of Wikipedia in its early days, and so I first came up against them during the Aryan invasion of India debate which did actually in the end, rewrite the history books and those pages of Wikipedia, no matter how hard the bushwhackers defended them. But it was a bruising process for everyone concerned.

We are in an information war, and these kinds of operatives are on this forum and I even do have the odd one on mine, from time to time. I tend to let them stay on, because I'd rather have them where I can see them. If I chuck them off, they'll only send somebody else and then I'd have to get to know a new person all over again. But as soon as there's any hint of ad hominems, they're bounced off.

I believe that if ad hominems were a fireable offence on here, discussions would be much more pleasant and more productive and enlightening, because the other thing is, when people feel personally under attack, they dig in and get entrenched in their positions. So for people to be able to grow intellectually and in their understanding ~ to be able to change their mind, in essence, without feeling they're losing face ~ it's necessary to protect the members with that kind of a rule.

Anyway, just pitching in really, just to get this excellent thread started.... well done, Whiskey...!Excellent comment Ishtar. This is an ancient, tried and true technique used not only by disinfo agents, agent provocateurs after they've gained your trust, and ordinary people after they realize they cannot attack the argument so they attack the messenger--either because they're not equipped to and/or because they are not ready to entertain ideas that may make sense but are just too upsetting to their cherished beliefs and/or world views. It is quite easy to get sucked into this type of tit for tat, as you pointed out, so I applaud you for taking the stance you have on your forum that enables people who are truly interested in exchanging ideas to share, learn and grow so they can stay focused on the argument(s) at hand. Bravo!

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 15:02
I appreciate the support you have all shown for this dialog.

We have talked about the Four Agreements and shared some ideas. Let's also take a look at nonviolent communication. A lot of people have not heard this term and do not know that it is an established...."protocol"...we might say.

Have a look at this site- http://www.cnvc.org/

And here is a wonderful article by Katy Butler from Tricycle Magazine. Don't skip this. It is a good read. :-)

http://www.katybutler.com/publications/tricycle/index_files/trike_sayitright.htm

These communication concepts and practices are crucial to building a harmonious community out of diversity, which I believe we are trying to do at Avalon.

Whiskey_Mystic
16th May 2012, 15:09
Thanks for the thoughtful thread. My one suggestion would be:

Check your ego at the homepage. That should bring civility to the fore.

Good advice, mgray.

I think many on Avalon could benefit from realizing that the first step to overcoming ego is to admit that we have one rather than try to pretend that we are too enlightened for that. If we have the humility to recognize how our ego needs are influencing us, we might be able to set it aside like laying down a burden. I have a big ego myself (I always want to be "right") so this is a good lesson to return to again and again. Great post. Thanks.

Ishtar
16th May 2012, 15:24
Thanks for the thoughtful thread. My one suggestion would be:

Check your ego at the homepage. That should bring civility to the fore.

Good advice, mgray.

I think many on Avalon could benefit from realizing that the first step to overcoming ego is to admit that we have one rather than try to pretend that we are too enlightened for that. If we have the humility to recognize how our ego needs are influencing us, we might be able to set it aside like laying down a burden. I have a big ego myself (I always want to be "right") so this is a good lesson to return to again and again. Great post. Thanks.

This is not directed at your post specifically, mgray, but I think this word 'ego' gets bandied around a little too freely at times, along with the unspoken assumption that the Eastern philosophical way of transcending ego is a 'good thing'. However, in my experience in India and with various gurus and ashrams, some of those spiritual practises don't always lead to non-ego but to a damaged ego.

From that, I came to the view that we need our egos. In my opinion, they're an integral part of our design and as Nature never wastes a single cell, they must be no more superfluous to a happy and balanced human being than 'junk DNA' is 'junk DNA'.

I have noticed that many times when I have been accused of being in my ego, it is actually because I'm doing or saying something that someone is annoyed at me about because I'm not complying with doing it their way.

I don't want to play the 'woman card' ... well, alright, I'm going to then. ;) But if you're a woman with firm opinions and not afraid to express them, you're much more likely to be accused of being 'in your ego' than a man behaving in the same way. </playing of woman card>

I think an ego is like a knife. You can either use it to peel the vegetables and make everyone a pot of delicious Scottish broth soup, or you can use it to injure said party.

In other words, I think that egos in the hands of responsible adults, who respect each others boundaries, are OK and help contribute to lively, entertaining and productive debate.

Anyway, that's just my twopenneth (before anyone accuses me of being in my ego! ;) )

<8>
16th May 2012, 15:29
Hello and thanks for a great subject.

Trying to implement a higher awareness on a forum might do the trick, Perhaps by facing a few words of wisdom every time you are logging on?

For example, If you feel a thought with a strong emotion and the urge to tell how you feel, STOP, this is your thought and emotion, why do you blame others with your feelings?

Ask yourself instead, why am I feeling like this.

We all have our story with thoughts and emotions that we have accumulated throughout life, the wrong words, and it's easy to press any of our buttons.


..8..

DeDukshyn
16th May 2012, 21:59
Another thing that can potentially cause issues are threads that are started with very little intent or direction indicated from the thread starter. I think this could be alleviated if the thread starter states his or her clear intentions of why they started a thread and what type of discussions would be considered off topic -- if the thread starter wants to maintain a specific direction. Likewise - if the thread is intended to be a free-for-all open discussion on anything related - indicate that too. Better to do this up front then try to manage it after the fact (although that is sometimes un-avoidable).

Another issue I am consciously working to avoid is responding to threads without reading a single post - not even the first one. Don't do that! I've done it, and I've even seen people come on to a thread and start b@!tchin about something that they think the topic is on based on what they read in the "New Posts" thread list, without checking which sub forum it is in, and without reading even the initial post. This is just plain offensive and rude. At the very least - responders should read the initial post, determine the sub-forum the thread starter put the thread in, then respond - even if you are just responding to a single post in the thread - knowing the relationship to the larger picture will allow for a more productive comment.

Another tip I could give is if you've never started a thread - start one. It helps to have a view from both sides of the fence and allows the concept of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" to be more front and center.

Whiskey_Mystic
20th May 2012, 19:56
Before I let this thread die, I want to go over the four stages of community development as described by M. Scott Peck

1. Pseudocommunity

When a group first comes together, they are generally polite and avoid conflict. They are not real. So they have a community, but they are faking it.

2. Chaos

Eventually, group members will begin to assert their individuals begin to assert their personal beliefs and values into the group. As these beliefs and values come into conflict with each other, the group has chaos

3. Emptiness

Many groups will not make it past chaos. In order for the group to move forward, each group member must let go of their own sacred cows. They must be willing to question what they believe. They must stop clinging to their version of reality and stop vehemently defending it. This will allow them to consider other points of view. If they do this, they might not choose new points of view, but they will be able to respect, empathize, and understand the other group members.

4. Community

Community is a state of being that is hard to describe. People feel peaceful, at ease with one another, accepting of differences, and perhaps celebrate with joy. It is a feeling of wholeness, of oneness, of knowing acceptance for just who you are, faults and all. Differences are appreciated, even honored. People seem to know it is just enough to be human and to experience a true feeling of what love may mean.

There are other processes that have four stages and there are similarities in meaning of the stages, but the processes are very different These are:

Tuckman

Forming
Storming
Norming
Performing

Blanchard

Directing
Coaching
Mentoring
Delegating

Peck

Pseudocommunity
Chaos
Emptying
Community

I think Bill Ryan talked about the Tuckman model back in early 2011, but I can't remember if that was in person or on the forum. Each model has merit and provides a different way of looking at group dynamics and some apply better than others in different situations.

Thank you for reading. I hope that this thread continues to provide ideas for us and the mods to have more harmony and be a model for other forums in how to conduct themselves. If the thread goes quiet now, then I hope it has served those who took the time to read it and participate.

May all beings be free from suffering.
May all beings be at peace.

write4change
20th May 2012, 20:18
Whiskey Mystic, you know I have great respect for you. I really do not want to distract from the positive note that you are sending as the conscious choice of letting this thread die. This is strictly for infromation puposes as it is one of my continual return to thinking points.

In the 80s, my husband and I were part of Scott Peck's 501c3 Foundation for Community. His book the Road Less Traveled has been on the NYT bestseller list from 1979 to 1989 which was something of a new phenomena. He gave a considerable amount of that money to this Foundation and he got several grants and big donations from Fortune 500. He really believed that some of the big coprs bought into his vision. I now understand that was just part of their distractions as they consolidated power. We went to many of his seminars and leadership trainings for community.

You may find this hard to believe but I was at that time so into doing something different that I made a committment never to open my mouth and just listen. I did learn a lot that way about myself by hearing what I would have said and did not and then deciding how glad I was that I kept my mouth shut. The people that went to these things were upper middle class and pretty highly educated because it cost quite a bit and it took a lot of time--three day weekends etc.

Never once did I experience real community. Some sessions the jocking for power was less bitter than others. Always, always, there were about five men who would jockey for power most of the entire session and only towards the end did the frustration become so intense people would just drop and pretend to come to community most of them never coming back. Each group had about 50 people as attending participants. It never was able to become a movement because it was never able to come to consensus about anything.

I have never regretted the experience, time or money but in all honesty I believe it to have been an abject failure or something before its time. I have come to feel that only bed rock conservatives can form a solid block of action because they always act from cohesive certainty which is not the basis of almost all seekers.

Rantaak
20th May 2012, 20:36
If we aren't allowed to be stupid, how can we learn?

Whiskey_Mystic
20th May 2012, 20:52
Write4Change,

I actually don't like Peck personally. I won't go into why. But I do think that some of the things he has taught in his books is practical and useful. Some of it also sucks. I am an expert in online community dynamics and community management, at least within my own field, and I have found Peck's model for community stages to bear out over time. It does not suprise me that he himself had trouble building community experiences. I appreciate your post.

Anchor
14th June 2012, 04:02
I cant read all the threads, I miss out quite a few and I just read this thread from a link in other thread.

What an great thread it is!

My summary of it: Be kind.

<8>
14th June 2012, 07:41
Hey I got an other...


"Do you believe OR do you know"

"Either way, present your thoughts in a respectful way"