Thorium reactors...which nation will lead the way?

[Lefty Dave]

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/107672/The_Thorium_Dream/


Greetings friends and neighbors

Wondering how many are aware of this process, called Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors...? Do you think they are a good idea? What nation would be likely to give this technology a try? US built them in the sixties...but sadly, they didn't fit into everyone's plans for the future.
I feel they are worth a look, at least !!!

What are your thoughts?

Thanks for your time...

Blessings

[Flash]

The poor guy promoting Thorium reactors is going face to face on competing with fossil fuel organisations, the most powerfull on earth. Although the process seems quite interesting and almost free energy as well, the only way I can see this happening is if the actual PTB leave the planet. Otherwise, I so think his life may be at risk.

How many have tried to implement interesting energies.

[Lefty Dave]

The poor guy promoting Thorium reactors is going face to face on competing with fossil fuel organisations, the most powerfull on earth. Although the process seems quite interesting and almost free energy as well, the only way I can see this happening is if the actual PTB leave the planet. Otherwise, I so think his life may be at risk.

How many have tried to implement interesting energies.

Thanks for your thoughts, Flash...
I doubt the PTB would be going through all this trouble to enslave us, ....if they were leaving. LOL Each of us put ourselves at risk when we try to introduce a novel concept...like LFTR or free energy....or Peace.
What I'm looking to determine here is....which nation might be willing to allow some (corporate) (private) investors to build and operate a prototype. That way, we could lead by example, Don't want to go through the process , only to be stopped ...as they did to Tesla.
My first thought was some small island nation (state) ...as...one of the by products of a thorium reactor is excess heat...and can be redirected straight into a desalinization operation, using the excess heat to create fresh water. Seems like a really good idea for an island nation with limited fresh water resources. A win-win situation.
So if a group if investors could get assurances from a government...it doesn't seem THAT farfetched .

Thanks again for your reply, Flash.

[Rocky_Shorz]

as for the little Island, Australia is already doing it...

[Lefty Dave]

as for the little Island, Australia is already doing it...


Pray tell, Rocky....I'd like to hear more about this.

[Lefty Dave]

as for the little Island, Australia is already doing it...


Pray tell, Rocky....I'd like to hear more about this.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor PS thought I'd include this definition for those who don't know...

[TargeT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4

I'm gonna say F it and try to build my own like the nuclear boy scout (he built a breeder reactor in a shed)


LFTR is a current functional ultra efficient energy production method, it could change the world; which country will go for it? with the Fukishema fear campaign in full swing I doubt any will

[Rocky_Shorz]

as for the little Island, Australia is already doing it...


Pray tell, Rocky....I'd like to hear more about this.

they are running several test reactors right now, one of the people involved is a friend on my twitter, I'll take a look and see if he can drop in to Avalon for an update...

[haibane]

I've been keeping an eye on this for quite a while, and it seems to me that the first is most likely going to be China, just because they don't have all the legislative friction built in the system - one of the major hurdles is the alloys required for the highly corosive molten fluoride salts, which have been developed many years ago, but aren't certified for use in commercial nuclear reactors. The certification process is known to be extremely expensive and to take years at least.

There has recently been a strategic alliance made between Australia and Czech Republic, where supporting technology has been developed for quite a while, but that development has been struggling with lack of funding, which, as I understand, is supposed to come from the EU ...

I really believe this technology might be the next big thing in near future - there's apparently enough thorium to last the entire planet for thousands of years, and then it can also be cheaply extracted from sea water. Even if LFTR isn't THE ultimate free energy tech of the future, it might help the transition to something better (unless we end up with the old business model with well entrenched, aggressively ultra-conservative industry like the current ones). The benefits would be so many:

cheap energy - cheap enough to make routine flights to Earth's orbit possible with technology that pretty much exists today, even if in experimental stage
all kinds of chemicals can be made by splitting stuff in high temperatures which can be reached by LFTR - a process which is used in chemical industry only on a small scale due to price of energy (for example petrol with an exact octane number with zero impurities, which would mean very little pollution and high efficiency that can be further aided by other already existing technologies; and if anyone still cares, the carbon and oxygen could be even taken from the CO2 in the air to alleviate the "carbon footprint")
many kinds of expensive exotic heavy elements can be made as by-products - for example isotopes needed to power interplanetary probes, cancer cure (even though there are probably better ways to deal with that)

All this of course goes against some powerful interests - the oil and fossil fuel lobbies seems to want to milk the declining production (according the statistics I've seen oil production has been on steady decline since 2007) for what it's worth, and US is clearly demonstrating willingness to wage wars (or to drag others into conflicts) over such resources or to protect pipelines. It is a matter of countries' leaderships being able to identify and address their strategic interests, as opposed to just being corrupt and near-brain-dead morons, which is the only part that's an utter science fiction about the whole idea. The mankind already has all the technological means to make everyone's life much better without having to turn the whole civilization into a borg-like robot hive controlled be an elite. It's all a matter of education and mind-set.

But still, I believe if the LFTR had been brought up some 10 years earlier, most of the people involved would be either in a gutter or dead by now, it's likely only being allowed to exist because the fossil-end already lurks on the horizon of the next 20 years or so.

[Lefty Dave]

as for the little Island, Australia is already doing it...


Pray tell, Rocky....I'd like to hear more about this.

they are running several test reactors right now, one of the people involved is a friend on my twitter, I'll take a look and see if he can drop in to Avalon for an update...

Thanks, Rocky...that would be a real treat.
I would guess there must be some interest in this technology...if what I've read about it is true.
I had hoped to stir the imagination of some of our associates here ...but they seem to be caught up in other topics...at the moment. Blessings.

[Lefty Dave]

I've been keeping an eye on this for quite a while, and it seems to me that the first is most likely going to be China, just because they don't have all the legislative friction built in the system - one of the major hurdles is the alloys required for the highly corosive molten fluoride salts, which have been developed many years ago, but aren't certified for use in commercial nuclear reactors. The certification process is known to be extremely expensive and to take years at least.

There has recently been a strategic alliance made between Australia and Czech Republic, where supporting technology has been developed for quite a while, but that development has been struggling with lack of funding, which, as I understand, is supposed to come from the EU ...

I really believe this technology might be the next big thing in near future - there's apparently enough thorium to last the entire planet for thousands of years, and then it can also be cheaply extracted from sea water. Even if LFTR isn't THE ultimate free energy tech of the future, it might help the transition to something better (unless we end up with the old business model with well entrenched, aggressively ultra-conservative industry like the current ones). The benefits would be so many:

cheap energy - cheap enough to make routine flights to Earth's orbit possible with technology that pretty much exists today, even if in experimental stage
all kinds of chemicals can be made by splitting stuff in high temperatures which can be reached by LFTR - a process which is used in chemical industry only on a small scale due to price of energy (for example petrol with an exact octane number with zero impurities, which would mean very little pollution and high efficiency that can be further aided by other already existing technologies; and if anyone still cares, the carbon and oxygen could be even taken from the CO2 in the air to alleviate the "carbon footprint")
many kinds of expensive exotic heavy elements can be made as by-products - for example isotopes needed to power interplanetary probes, cancer cure (even though there are probably better ways to deal with that)

All this of course goes against some powerful interests - the oil and fossil fuel lobbies seems to want to milk the declining production (according the statistics I've seen oil production has been on steady decline since 2007) for what it's worth, and US is clearly demonstrating willingness to wage wars (or to drag others into conflicts) over such resources or to protect pipelines. It is a matter of countries' leaderships being able to identify and address their strategic interests, as opposed to just being corrupt and near-brain-dead morons, which is the only part that's an utter science fiction about the whole idea. The mankind already has all the technological means to make everyone's life much better without having to turn the whole civilization into a borg-like robot hive controlled be an elite. It's all a matter of education and mind-set.

But still, I believe if the LFTR had been brought up some 10 years earlier, most of the people involved would be either in a gutter or dead by now, it's likely only being allowed to exist because the fossil-end already lurks on the horizon of the next 20 years or so.


Thanks for your reply Haibane...you make some very good points here...and have great insight on the subject....appreciate your input. !

[haibane]

Well, thank you Lefty Dave for bringing the subject up. I've noticed this doesn't seem to catch up the imagination of regular Avalonians as much as free energy and such - it's after all a technology you can't build at home and power your household for free ... Although in theory you might have an LFTR the size of a refrigerator, it would still have to be manufactured by a big corp, and very heavily secured, but it'd still be radioactive as hell inside, so I can't imagine one at every home (not to mention its efficiency wouldn't be too high at such size). But I still think more people ought to learn about thorium and start nagging their legislative representation about it. I'm currently working on a website on the subject for regular people, most likely only in Czech language, but I'll try and publish some of the material here in English at some point.

[TargeT]

Well, thank you Lefty Dave for bringing the subject up. I've noticed this doesn't seem to catch up the imagination of regular Avalonians as much as free energy and such - it's after all a technology you can't build at home and power your household for free ... Although in theory you might have an LFTR the size of a refrigerator, it would still have to be manufactured by a big corp, and very heavily secured, but it'd still be radioactive as hell inside, so I can't imagine one at every home (not to mention its efficiency wouldn't be too high at such size). But I still think more people ought to learn about thorium and start nagging their legislative representation about it. I'm currently working on a website on the subject for regular people, most likely only in Czech language, but I'll try and publish some of the material here in English at some point.

I think a thorium reactor could be built at home, not a very high out put or efficent one however & it would be a much better "economy of scale" if it was produced by a company. Ideally a linked, distributed network of power is best as it's very robust & resistant to power delivery disruption.

As for your website idea:

Here's a US version

http://thoriumpetition.com/


Once 25,000 signatures are collected, we will receive a response from The Obama Administration! Whether President Obama (and Sec. of Energy Steven Chu) respond in an informed manner or not, the response will be a valuable asset as we seek to revolutionise energy production & enable domestic high-tech manufactuing.


Thorium, converted into energy in a Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR pronounced "Lifter"), has the potential to completely eliminate our dependence on fossil fuel based electricity generation... All the while releasing orders of magnitude less radioactive material into the atmosphere than coal and natural gas! No greenhouse gasses are emitted. And operating costs are projected to easily compete with coal.

LFTR has staggering implications beyond lowering the cost of electricity:
Separating thorium from heavy rare earths gives us access to heavy rare Earth elements currently monopolized by China, essential for hi-tech manufacturing jobs.

Normal LFTR operation produces medical isotopes (expected to be in short supply) for fighting Cancer, in an easy to partition form.

LFTR produces fuel (which the world is completely out of) needed by NASA to power deep space probes.

And the waste stream contains far, far less of "the bad stuff" we've all come to associate with today's nuclear power: transuranics such as plutonium and curium.
LFTR is nuclear power, without the drawbacks of nuclear power.


Here's some stuff for you to get info for your site:

To learn more about the Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor visit: http://energyfromthorium.com/

See http://THORIUMREMIX.com/ for full list of multimedia source material.

Key YouTube video components:

Kirk Sorensen @ TEDxYYC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw

Kirk Sorensen @ Protospace - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSmf_qmkbg

Kirk Sorensen @ MRU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3rL08J7fDA

Kirk Sorensen @ TEAC3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-uxvSVIGtU

Kirk Sorensen @ Dr. Kiki Science Hour #84 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpnpyd-jbw

After Fukushima: The Fear Factor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVQ0NvEcyqw

Robert Hargraves @ TEAC3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOoBTufkEog

Alexander Cannara @ TEAC3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUVq81kBKyk

James Kennedy @ TEAC3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrDeB86YpV4

Q: What is thorium and what makes it special?

A: Thorium is a naturally-occuring mineral that holds large amounts of releasable nuclear energy, similar to uranium. This nuclear energy can be released in a special nuclear reactor designed to use thorium. Thorium is special because it is easier to extract this energy completely than uranium due to some of the chemical and nuclear properties of thorium.

Q: What is a liquid-fluoride reactor?

A: A liquid-fluoride nuclear reactor is different than conventional nuclear reactors that use solid fuel elements. A liquid-fluoride reactor uses a solution of several fluoride salts, typically lithium fluoride, beryllium fluoride, and uranium tetrafluoride, as its basic nuclear fuel. The fluoride salts have a number of advantages over solid fuels. They are impervious to radiation damage, they can be chemically processed in the form that they are in, and they have a high capacity to hold thermal energy (heat). Additional nuclear fuel can be added or withdrawn from the salt solution during normal operation.

Q: Are the salts safe?

A: Very safe. Unlike other coolants considered for high-performance reactors (like liquid sodium) the salts will not react dangerously with air or water. This is because they are already in their most stable chemical form. Their properties do not change even under intense radiation, unlike all solid forms of nuclear fuel.

Q: What is nuclear waste and how does a liquid-fluoride reactor address this issue?

A: So-called "nuclear waste" or spent-nuclear fuel is produced in conventional (solid-core) nuclear reactors because they are unable to extract all of the nuclear energy from their fuel before they have to shutdown. LFTR addresses this issue by using a form of nuclear fuel (liquid-fluoride salts of thorium) that allow complete extraction of nuclear energy from the fuel.

[haibane]

I think a thorium reactor could be built at home, not a very high out put or efficent one however & it would be a much better "economy of scale" if it was produced by a company. Ideally a linked, distributed network of power is best as it's very robust & resistant to power delivery disruption.


OK, I won't even touch the petition / politics involved, but let me explain the technical stuff - it's actually quite simple and most of it, I believe, is included in the vids you posted links for:

Did you think about how to transfer the heat from the reactor to turn it into energy? To keep it small enough, you're most likely going to have to use a turbine that's small enough yet efficient, and the whole thing has to be able to withstand heat exceeding 500° C for long periods of time. The medium for heat transfer cannot really be water (mainly because it isn't efficient enough), so you have to resort to exotic inert gasses that transfer heat well. Can you even think of materials required to build the heat transfer system AND the turbine? Can you get hold of such materials and gasses? Do you think an ordinary - or even an extraordinary - DYIer's workshop is equipped to work with high performance jet-engine grade alloys or to make a glass turbine? Of course there are other ways of turning heat to electricity, but then you're looking at a completely different physical scale (think really LARGE heat exchangers etc., an extra building as opposed to a fridge-size device) and also very high material cost.

And now here's the real bummer (and you ought to know by now if you watched those videos): thorium itself isn't even fissile, otherwise those thousands of tons of it excavated every year wouldn't be just laying around outside the quarries or extraction plants. The fissile material here is actually uranium 233, to which the thorium transmutes in the outer layer of the reactor core. In order to start the nuclear reaction, you have to drop some of the U233 into the molten core. Once the reaction starts, U233 is generated (and some can be taken out to store in order to restart the reactor or to seed another one), but I don't think you're very likely to get hold of any.

So yes - I agree you can build one at home if you throw an awful lot of money at it, but actually running it is a completely different matter. As for the 'economy of scale' - I'd say about the 3rd generation of the technology, when it's really mature enough, might make that physical factor possible, but even so, putting such a potentially dangerous (in situation like earthquakes, wars and such - you just can't protect it enough to make in operable size and weight) and expensive to build device in every household doesn't sound like a good idea. If LFTR is ever made in that scale, it's most likely to be used in space exploration, in remote locations such as Antarctic bases, or by military.

While I understand your urge to empower yourself with some cheap/free electricity generation (I'd like that too), LFTR makes economic sense on a community or municipality level, eliminating power losses at long distance transfer (removing need for those ugly and dangerous power lines) while bringing additional benefits according to communities' particular needs, such as water desalination or providing petrol and other chemicals, which could be pretty much 'made-to-order' only in required quantities (the economy of making them being pretty much the same regardless of their composition and volume).

If I were you I'd be looking in the direction of Kapanadze's generator, as it's much simpler and is supposed to run on a good old crowbar you're likely to have around, which you apparently can still use for its original purpose even after you've 'spent' it up in the reaction. But I have yet to see one with my own eyes.

(^__~ )

[Lefty Dave]

WOW....thanks Target....so much info...I'll be here all week....really appreciate what you've given us here.

[TargeT]

WOW....thanks Target....so much info...I'll be here all week....really appreciate what you've given us here.

I've looked into this quite a bit, even attempted to get government attention here locally (NO LUCK....) I think something like this is just going to have to be built by someone; any established company / government help seems unobtainable from my experience.

and I don't think this would be impossible to DIY. just difficult.

a Tungsten housing would be ideal, tho an alloy of it would work fine (tungsten can withstand over 3,100* Celsius) I think the reaction would have to be maintained at above 600* c for any useful power to be pulled off of it, as for the turbines etc.. I'd use a steam turbine system that can be purchased already made, the danger of the system is fairly low, even when actively reacting as its a self regulating system (LFTR reactors use heat convection & fluid expansion properties to self regulate the reactor), the "kicker fuel" would be hard to source, but probably not impossible..

Turbines could also be skipped for more experimental power sources, like the metal that converts heat directly to electricity (imagine the uses of that alloy!) :
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-06/new-alloy-can-convert-heat-directly-electricity


anyway, just idea's,,,,,, like Dr Rossi's E-cat (which runs off enriched palladium (as a catalyst), nickel & hydrogen in a "cool fusion" http://ecat.com/ ) it needs to get built and become functional before ANYTHING will happen (IMO).

[Bo Atkinson]

TargeT,

I'm still only about half way through that Thorium Remix vid of yours... My portable playback is too difficult with construction work at the moment, to play it all in one go....

That guy is inspired with his subject and probably this info has been spread around a long time, on deaf ears. The main reason i never got interested was lack of web back in the 1990s. But a remaining disinterest of mine is the centralized aspect... Big bureaucratically run systems one has to plug into. Also lack of portability. I agree with curiosity and looking for the right means to tinker somehow...

The best long shot i've seen and half visualized, is Keshe's promised (but not yet published) energy system. Which is still secret and possibly suppressed for complex political fallout. Some amazing generalizations of this tech were in his latest vid, from his website (http://www.keshefoundation.org/en/media-a-papers/video-presentions/220-about-the-keshe-foundation).

He uses all the component words without calling it nuclear or emphasizing nuclear tech. Best of all it is not about boiling water. Or converting steam to electricity. Or needing huge centralized operations. This sounds promising to me. If a person listens closely to the whole vid and stops it on every unfamiliar tech term, then, (at least to me), it sounds like he has come up with a micro-nano reactor which converts energy through plasma and ultimately into electricity and other force fields.... All in one and it is too hard for the average person to believe it.

Or maybe my imagination got the better of me, since i already have a weakness for winding spherical coils, (seen in another of his vids and linked here).... (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44130-Fukushima-is-falling-apart-are-you-ready&p=475488&viewfull=1#post475488)

Thanks to all,
~wav


Thanks to danceblackcatdance for listing the latest lecture vid, first link above in my post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44711-Keshe-Foundation-gives-free-energy-and-other-technology-to-ALL-countries.&p=512671&viewfull=1#post512671) --

[Rocky_Shorz]

the simple explanation for everyone is this, you can't create nuclear bombs without nuclear power stations...

if Iran wanted energy, they would be developing Thorium reactors, which the world would accept. the waste is safe in 100 years instead of 35,000

but they want a big ol sword to rattle just like the other kids in the sandbox...


Japan is in discussion with Australia on Thorium reactors to replace their nukes...

studies on the capability of HHO to burn radiated rods is currently in process, it is possible to burn all of Japan's Nuclear Waste without releasing any toxins into the atmosphere...

wonder with advanced as our world is why this process wasn't started sooner...

[Lefty Dave]

Thanks, Wavydome , for your input...and Rocky....I was wondering the same thing about Japan....and Iran....and I find it hard to believe that Russia, China haven't built many LFTR's already....they've known about them for 50 years....
It has also entered my pea brain that a floating LFTR/Desal ship would be ideal for a coastal state/nation to have for emergencies...

Thanks to all who read and or responded to this thread....

[sigma6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4

I'm gonna say F it and try to build my own like the nuclear boy scout (he built a breeder reactor in a shed)


LFTR is a current functional ultra efficient energy production method, it could change the world; which country will go for it? with the Fukishema fear campaign in full swing I doubt any will

I was going to post this and found it, I don't think it is getting enough PR... essentially if thorium is 4 times more available then uranium and you can get 200x more power per equal measure. Then that means that Thorium is 800 TIMES more COST EFFECTIVE then uranium!!!!

And it operates in such a way that they don't have to pressurize the system 70 atmospheres like they have to with uranium AND they can be designed to be AUTOMATICALLY FAIL SAFE in the event of a power shut down WITHOUT HUMAN INTERVENTION....

This deserves more views... Really if what I just stated is true then this is PROOF that the whole energy sector as it is controlled is specifically for the purpose of developing nuclear weapons and the energy is just a side issue...

This is another conspiracy exposed! This is exactly what the US space program was it wasn't about flying 3 men to the moon on thousands of tons of fuel, it was about building intercontinental ballistic missiles. And is burning evidence that should be made more public.

800 TIMES MORE EFFICIENT = $800 DOLLAR BILL = $1

This how they are getting us to pay for them to build NUCLEAR BOMBS.