Compassion

[Fred Steeves]

So I was just thinking...(Oh god, here he goes)LOL.

If you were an eternal soul, who knew all the ins and outs of Creation, the nuts and bolts so to speak, you would "know" what's going on. But would you "Know" what's going on? Maybe the answer is that there is a vast difference between the small k, and the large K.

So what if, there was a sacred "Teacher", who could upon request, take this eternal being from "knowing", to "Knowing"?

What if, this teacher told you: "Straight up, once this begins, there is no turning back, and your identity as you know it will have been scrubbed. It will have ceased to exist, and you will have to earn it back. You will suffer greatly, you will make others suffer greatly, and not know why. Over the seeming eons, you will do the 'best' of things, and you will most importantly first do the 'worst' of things. You will only eventually Know compassion, once you have been able to recognize your atrocities, know that you have ventured beyond the realms of forgiveness, and then you will Know that you were already forgiven".

Continuing: "The next time you approach me, I will look into your eyes, and you will be able to teach ME compassion in an instant!!! ARE YOU READY???"

[Belle]

Okay. Like the OP. Read it a few times through...

knowing - mind understanding/rationalizing

Knowing - experiencing/being

Did get a quick flash of deja vu.... a "so that's what I agreed to?" sort of thing.

Other than that...naw. Got nothing.

[music]

Small k, big K. Similar to things I see, though because we see the same things with different eyes, I see only love (small l) and Love (big L). When we live from a place of human love (small l), we have concepts like knowing and pity. When we operate from the big L Love of higher consciousness, knowing becomes understanding, and pity becomes compassion.

Fundamentally the same experience though, and I would dare say that many others here see a similar thing with their own eyes.

[Tony]

Children play make-believe games.
One day they will grow up.
The sad thing is,
they prefer the make-believe games,
and do not notice they are already grown up.






Tony

[Tony]

Both Barrels!

It is sad you say you do not know what Compassion is,
when it is your very Essence.

You Know what compassion is.
Your every word screams compassion,
You know, you know.

Stop doubting, and Love others
more that your self.

Now!

[Fred Steeves]

Stop doubting, and Love others
more that your self.


Now!




O.K. Tony, brace yourself dear sir.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

[Tony]

Stop doubting, and Love others
more that your self.


Now!




O.K. Tony, brace yourself dear sir.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

What time is it there, shouldn't you be in bed?

[PurpleLama]

It is said, that God taps you on the shoulder, before He hits you upside the head with the two by four.

[lookbeyond]

I believe that compassion develops as the soul does, that if you dont feel it ,then it isnt there yet, and going on from this , when all have compassion what a wonderful world this will be!

Kind Reguards, lookbeyond

[Tony]

Compassion will challenge you.

[lookbeyond]

Yes, i agree, it does and mostly with those i know well.

[Fred Steeves]

This story is one facet of my inspiration for the OP. I was really taken the first time I heard it more than a decade ago. Now does this mean I just happen to like this story? Or can metaphor sometimes "ring a bell" so to speak?


“When Narada came to Vishnu and said, “What is the secret of your Maya (illusion of separateness)?” Vishnu took him and threw him into a pool. And the moment he fell under the pool he was born as a princess in a very great family, and went through all the experiences of childhood and being a little girl, finally married to a prince from another kingdom and she went to live with him in his kingdom.

And they were in tremendous prosperity, and palaces and peacocks and all that sort of thing, then suddenly there was a war, and their kingdom was attacked and utterly destroyed, and the prince himself was killed in battle. And so he was cremated, and she, as a dutiful wife, was about to throw herself, weeping, on the funeral pyre and burn herself, an act of sadhi or self-sacrifice, when suddenly, Narada woke to find himself being pulled out of the pool by his hair.

And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””

[Belle]

Compassion will challenge you.

Compassion alone can lead to the desire to fulfill someone's wants...relieving their immediate 'pain', and yours.

Compassion tempered with wisdom can reveal their needs...

[PurpleLama]

I am you and you are me and we are all together.


This story is one facet of my inspiration for the OP. I was really taken the first time I heard it more than a decade ago. Now does this mean I just happen to like this story? Or can metaphor sometimes "ring a bell" so to speak?


“When Narada came to Vishnu and said, “What is the secret of your Maya (illusion of separateness)?” Vishnu took him and threw him into a pool. And the moment he fell under the pool he was born as a princess in a very great family, and went through all the experiences of childhood and being a little girl, finally married to a prince from another kingdom and she went to live with him in his kingdom.

And they were in tremendous prosperity, and palaces and peacocks and all that sort of thing, then suddenly there was a war, and their kingdom was attacked and utterly destroyed, and the prince himself was killed in battle. And so he was cremated, and she, as a dutiful wife, was about to throw herself, weeping, on the funeral pyre and burn herself, an act of sadhi or self-sacrifice, when suddenly, Narada woke to find himself being pulled out of the pool by his hair.

And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””

[Tony]

When we realise the brilliance of our true nature,


we realise that everyone else has this same brilliant nature.
Then one cannot help but love.

Everything else is a temporary, passing, fleeting, impermanent, not real, illusory mirage.

Which still needs to be respected....loved!

[PurpleLama]

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly
I'm crying

Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
Man you been a naughty boy. You let your face grow long
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

Mister City Policeman sitting, pretty little policemen in a row
See how they fly like Lucy in the sky, see how they run
I'm crying, I'm crying
I'm crying, I'm crying

Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye
Crabalocker fishwife pornographic priestess
Boy you been a naughty girl, you let your knickers down
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, coo coo ca choo

Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun
If the sun don't come
You get a tan from standing in the English rain
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, coo coo ca choo, coo coo ca choo

Expert textpert choking smokers
Don't you think the joker laughs at you? (Ha ha ha! He he he! Ha ha ha!)
See how they smile like pigs in a sty, see how they snied
I'm crying

Semolina pilchard climbing up the Eiffel Tower
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna
Man you should have seen them kicking Edgar Alan Poe
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, coo coo ca choo coo coo ca choo
coo coo ca choocoo coo ca choo
Goo gooooooooooo jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly
I'm crying

Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
Man you been a naughty boy. You let your face grow long
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

Mister City Policeman sitting, pretty little policemen in a row
See how they fly like Lucy in the sky, see how they run
I'm crying, I'm crying
I'm crying, I'm crying

Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye
Crabalocker fishwife pornographic priestess
Boy you been a naughty girl, you let your knickers down
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun
If the sun don't come
You get a tan from standing in the English rain
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob goo goo goo goo joob

Expert textpert choking smokers
Don't you think the joker laughs at you? (Ha ha ha! He he he! Ha ha ha!)
See how they smile like pigs in a sty, see how they snied
I'm crying

Semolina pilchard climbing up the Eiffel Tower
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna
Man you should have seen them kicking Edgar Alan Poe
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob
Goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob
Goo gooooooooooo jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba

[Tony]

This story is one facet of my inspiration for the OP. I was really taken the first time I heard it more than a decade ago. Now does this mean I just happen to like this story? Or can metaphor sometimes "ring a bell" so to speak?


“When Narada came to Vishnu and said, “What is the secret of your Maya (illusion of separateness)?” Vishnu took him and threw him into a pool. And the moment he fell under the pool he was born as a princess in a very great family, and went through all the experiences of childhood and being a little girl, finally married to a prince from another kingdom and she went to live with him in his kingdom.

And they were in tremendous prosperity, and palaces and peacocks and all that sort of thing, then suddenly there was a war, and their kingdom was attacked and utterly destroyed, and the prince himself was killed in battle. And so he was cremated, and she, as a dutiful wife, was about to throw herself, weeping, on the funeral pyre and burn herself, an act of sadhi or self-sacrifice, when suddenly, Narada woke to find himself being pulled out of the pool by his hair.

And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””








I'm sure we've all been princesses at one time!

[Tony]

The opposite to Compassion is Selfishness.

We have a 'Me first' society. We have been divided, and encouraged to be better than the rest,
to be an individual and live the dream! Whose dream?

We are being told to only trust our instincts. Would you trust anyone who, only trusted themselves?
There picture is far too small.

When I listen to the news they are saying two things at the same time!
They are saying, “This is what is wrong....aren't we doing well!”
Meaning this is the problem, didn't we create it nicely.
Wars, famine, finance, education, health, living conditions.....I swear that is how the 'elite' communicate via the 'news'.
Their 'sacred' chosen ones are being told how the evils ones are doing.

Because 'they' control both sides, all arguments are pointless.
The problem is, 'they' leave a few honest people in the middle giving the right argument,
but the honest people do not know the full picture!
So it all goes round in circles with us 'mice in the maze' left watching and wandering, and forgetting it's all an illusion.:pop2: :fencing: :baby:

Sentient beings are selfish creatures, with selfish instincts. It is these instincts that cannot be trusted.
We have to find the antidote to this 'self' preservation

We have to be free from selfishness, to be able to have Compassion.





Tony

[Mark]

And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””

What an absolutely amazing story. This is why parables are so powerful. The places they can take you in your mind when you work it in the attempt to understand them.

[Sebastion]

Agreed 100% Rahkyt....and taking it to the next level might point to the Silent Watcher aspect or it could be known as essence, Itself.





And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””

What an absolutely amazing story. This is why parables are so powerful. The places they can take you in your mind when you work it in the attempt to understand them.

[Fred Steeves]

So it all goes round in circles with us 'mice in the maze' left watching and wandering, and forgetting it's all an illusion.:pop2: :fencing: :baby:


Exactly Tony! Isn't that just what Vishnu demonstrated to Narada? All in the blink of an eye?

Of course this also nicely demonstrates the fallacy of the existance of time and space. So much, in so few words.

[another bob]

It is said, that God taps you on the shoulder, before He hits you upside the head with the two by four.

Love wants to reach out and manhandle us,
Break all our teacup talk of God.

If you had the courage and
Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights,
He would just drag you around the room
By your hair,
Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world
That bring you no joy.

Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly
And wants to rip to shreds
All your erroneous notions of truth

That make you fight within yourself, dear one,
And with others,

Causing the world to weep
On too many fine days.

God wants to manhandle us,
Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself
And practice His dropkick.

The Beloved sometimes wants
To do us a great favor:

Hold us upside down
And shake all the nonsense out.

But when we hear
He is in such a "playful drunken mood"
Most everyone I know
Quickly packs their bags and hightails it
Out of town.


Hafiz

[Jeffrey]

A garden hose.

It is connected to a faucet.

It channels water.

It can contort itself to direct the stream in a number of ways.

What happens if someone steps on the hose? Or kinks it? Ties it in knots?

What happens when someone turns off the faucet, or disconnects the hose?

What happens if someone gathers up a bunch of hoses and directs them into their own pool for their own supply of water? A second-hand source?

Some water has to be artificially treated with chemicals and put through a system of filters because it has become stagnated being separate from the fluidity of the natural spring for so long. A dead pool?

What is the difference between an artificial reservoir and a natural spring?

When a drain becomes clogged, do you snake it?

[another bob]

This story is one facet of my inspiration for the OP. I was really taken the first time I heard it more than a decade ago. Now does this mean I just happen to like this story? Or can metaphor sometimes "ring a bell" so to speak?


“When Narada came to Vishnu and said, “What is the secret of your Maya (illusion of separateness)?” Vishnu took him and threw him into a pool. And the moment he fell under the pool he was born as a princess in a very great family, and went through all the experiences of childhood and being a little girl, finally married to a prince from another kingdom and she went to live with him in his kingdom.

And they were in tremendous prosperity, and palaces and peacocks and all that sort of thing, then suddenly there was a war, and their kingdom was attacked and utterly destroyed, and the prince himself was killed in battle. And so he was cremated, and she, as a dutiful wife, was about to throw herself, weeping, on the funeral pyre and burn herself, an act of sadhi or self-sacrifice, when suddenly, Narada woke to find himself being pulled out of the pool by his hair.

And Vishnu said, “For whom were you weeping?””

Hiya Compassionate Fred!

About 10 years ago I wrote a story about a teacher from an earlier civilization called Ixnay. It was composed of a series of parables, and I'll share one below. Mind you, I never heard the story of Vidhnu and Narada until you posted it here.


Curious about metaphysical matters, a greeb once inquired of Ixnay about the true meaning of the phrase,

“All that appears is nought but illusion".

Ixnay immediately slid a silver ring from a finger, tossed the glimmering ornament into a nearby river, and casually grinning, barely audible, suggested:

"Bring the ring back to me and then you will know."

With great trust in Ixnay, the greeb promptly dived into the river. The instant he entered the water, he lost all consciousness of who he really was. He surfaced, climbed a bank, and stumbled around in unknown territory, completely befuddled.

Eventually, he found a small town, accustomed himself to the locals, and even got himself a few acres to farm for himself. He was intelligent, and over the next few years or so, created ingenious ways to increase the farm yields, eventually becoming the best farmer in the county, and very prosperous.

He married the Mahub's daughter and they had many children. He traveled far and learned even more, and became a great expert on agricultural methods throughout the country. When the country went to war, he joined the army and became an officer. His children grew, and though they had the usual ups and downs (one died while still a child) everyone did well and prospered.

One day, he was walking beside the river, contemplating his interesting life. Although he was successful and had everything life could offer, he
still was not completely happy or satisfied. Something was missing and it continued to bother him, but he had no idea what it was.

It had been raining a great deal in the last week, and suddenly the bank gave way under his feet, submerging him in the swell of a rushing river. As he was swept along under the surface, his eyes spied something silver shining in the bed of the river, and despite his immediate predicament, he was mysteriously drawn to it.

With great effort, he was able to grab the object and rise for air. For what seemed like hours, he battled the turbulent waters, eventually heaving himself with tremendous difficulty onto the bank.

The instant his feet touched the land, he remembered with crystal clarity who he really was. He remembered asking Ixnay the question about illusion, and then diving for the ring in the river. He also remembered all his years as a farmer, soldier, father, husband and successful greeb. But even as he thought of those experiences, they began to fade, just like a dream.

He turned and saw Ixnay smiling at him.

Looking into Ixnay’s eyes, the greeb smiled back, handed over the ring, and exclaimed,

"That was an excellent answer!"

[Jenci]

Which is compassion?

If someone is suffering in my presence and I am the space that allows it...... or I am the person that tries to alleviate it for them?



Jeanette

[Limor Wolf]

Hi Tony, nicely said. The opposite of compassion can also be indifference. good people sometimes build walls around themselvs and they are afraid to act and think compassionately in this rough world that we live in, so they don't. they are afraid to be overwhelmed by feelings and feel helpless in their ability (or inability) to help. the elite certainly like to define rules for us mere mortals to 'aspire' to, their 'rullings' are devoide of emotions and is striving for competitiveness and rivalry, compassion is an ingredient that many are afraid of, there is too much suffering around the world and in this frame of illusion we conclude that it has the power to drain our own energy. that's the nature of the illusion, and that is the nature of the trap. turning back on our human emotions can help reverse the situation, as you wrote above :

" When we realise the brilliance of our true nature, we realise that everyone else has this same brilliant nature. Then one cannot help but love"

Energy exists in abundance, evil, love, greediness,compassion. we choose which one we tap into (not always in a conscious awarness, unfortunetly) and what we empower and with what we flow, and make it a vital part of our lives.

[Limor Wolf]

Which is compassion?

If someone is suffering in my presence and I am the space that allows it...... or I am the person that tries to alleviate it for them?



Jeanette

That is tricky, Jeanette, since we can not always be responsible for other's emotions, we can not take it upon ourselves to carry the journey for someone else, but we can also try and not be the thorn that gets stuck in their feet and to give a caressing touch every now and than.

[Belle]

Which is compassion?

If someone is suffering in my presence and I am the space that allows it...... or I am the person that tries to alleviate it for them?



Jeanette

I am space that allows the possibility to alleviate suffering...I cannot alleviate their suffering...that is for them to do themselves when they are ready.

We've all known people who cling to their suffering, almost reveling in it needlessly for some benefit only they can see.

Free will.

[Jeffrey]

Is compassion a feeling, an action, or a state? Or all three?

It's possible to be empathetic while not being sympathetic.

If true compassion is the opposite of selfishness, are they mutually exclusive? Can compassion acknowledge in others, what isn't present in ourself?

Is it possible to be truly compassionate while not being selfish?

[another bob]

"All the peace and happiness of the whole globe,
the peace and happiness of societies,
the peace and happiness of family,
the peace and happiness in the individual persons' life,
and the peace and happiness of even the animals and so forth,
all depends on having loving kindness toward each other."

Lama Zopa Rinpoche




The definition of compassion is: wanting others to be free from suffering. So compassion is the definition of the highest scope of motivation. It is said that to generate genuine compassion, one needs to realise that oneself is suffering, that an end to suffering is possible, and that other beings similarly want to be free from suffering.



His Holiness the Dalai Lama:

"Nirvana may be the final object of attainment, but at the moment it is difficult to reach. Thus the practical and realistic aim is compassion, a warm heart, serving other people, helping others, respecting others, being less selfish. By practising these, you can gain benefit and happiness that remain longer. If you investigate the purpose of life and, with the motivation that results from this inquiry, develop a good heart - compassion and love. Using your whole life this way, each day will become useful and meaningful."

"Every human being has the same potential for compassion; the only question is whether we really take any care of that potential, and develop and implement it in our daily life. My hope is that more and more people will realise the value of compassion, and so follow the path of altruism. As for myself, ever since I became a Buddhist monk, that has been my real destiny - for usually I think of myself as just one simple Buddhist monk, no more and no less."

Another quote from His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from "The Compassionate Life"

"Compassion without attachment is possible. Therefore, we need to clarify the distinctions between compassion and attachment. True compassion is not just an emotional response but a firm commitment founded on reason. Because of this firm foundation, a truly compassionate attitude toward others does not change even if they behave negatively. Genuine compassion is based not on our own projections and expectations, but rather on the needs of the other: irrespective of whether another person is a close friend or an enemy, as long as that person wishes for peace and happiness and wishes to overcome suffering, then on that basis we develop genuine concern for their problem. This is genuine compassion.
For a Buddhist practitioner, the goal is to develop this genuine compassion, this genuine wish for the well-being of another, in fact for every living being throughout the universe."

"The times when you are suffering can be those when you are open, and where you are extremely vulnerable can be where your greatest strength really lies.
Say to yourself: “I am not going to run away from this suffering. I want to use it in the best and richest way I can, so that I can become more compassionate and more helpful to others.” Suffering, after all, can teach us about compassion. If you suffer, you will know how it is when others suffer. And if you are in a position to help others, it is through your suffering that you will find the understanding and compassion to do so."




"Sometimes we think that to develop an open heart, to be truly loving and compassionate, means that we need to be passive, to allow others to abuse us, to smile and let anyone do what they want with us. Yet this is not what is meant by compassion. Quite the contrary. Compassion is not at all weak. It is the strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to that suffering, whether it is in ourselves or others, without fear; it allows us to name injustice without hesitation, and to act strongly, with all the skill at our disposal. To develop this mind state of compassion...is to learn to live, as the Buddha put it, with sympathy for all living beings, without exception."

Sharon Salzberg



Practice:

1. Spend 5 minutes at the beginning of each day remembering we all want the same things (to be happy and be loved) and we are all connected to one another.

2. Spend 5 minutes -- breathing in - cherishing yourself; and, breathing out - cherishing others. If you think about people you have difficulty cherishing, extend your cherishing to them anyway.

3. During the day extend that attitude to everyone you meet. Practice cherishing the simplest person (clerks, attendants, etc., as well as the "important" people in your life; cherish the people you love and the people you dislike).

4. Continue this practice no matter what happens or what anyone does to you.

The practice of cherishing can be taken very deep if done wordlessly; allowing yourself to feel the love and appreciation that already exists in your heart.




Promise me,
promise me this day,
promise me now,
while the sun is overhead
exactly at the zenith,
promise me:
Even as they strike you down
with a mountain of hatred and violence;
even as they step on you and crush you like a worm,
even as they dismember and disembowel you,
remember, brother, remember:
man is not your enemy.
The only thing worthy of you is compassion --
invincible, limitless, unconditional.
Hatred will never let you face the beast in man.
One day, when you face this beast alone,
with your courage intact, your eyes kind, untroubled
(even as no one sees them),
out of your smile will bloom a flower.
And those who love you
will behold you
across ten thousands worlds of birth and dying.
Alone again,
I will go on with bent head,
knowing that love has become eternal.
On the long, rough road,
the sun and the moon
will continue to shine.

Thich Nhat Hanh

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Compassion to me is when I know for sure I have hurt or have felt anger directly toward somebody and later feel sorry for that person i have been so nasty. I can not feel compassion for someone who i assume is suffering. That is a judgement based on limited awareness of the situation and person i barely know (but is it really so?). It gets tricky if it turns out that something i did mindlessly in the past lead to that person ended in misery? Ex. left the shopping cart in the middle of parking lot and some hour later a driver tried to avoid hitting it but hit the unsuspecting person i saw later suffering? Should i be compassionate? Maybe i should ask every person i think is suffering if she is suffering because of my mindlessness? I have a vague suspicion i should firstly go and openly ask that person if it is OK for me to feel compassion for her. It has something to do with free will. We are supposed to respect other people free will. If someone do not want others to feel compassion for her or to pray for her, should others continue to pray or feel compassion for her? Same is with helping people. Should i help if nobody asked for it? Someone told in the past you should ask three times before giving up.

[Mark]

That is tricky, Jeanette, since we can not always be responsible for other's emotions, we can not take it upon ourselves to carry the journey for someone else, but we can also try and not be the thorn that gets stuck in their feet and to give a caressing touch every now and than.

... and don't people always try to make us responsible for their emotions??? LOL

That is one of the issues that I have had to deal with a lot in my life. Finally I had to step back and look at myself and wonder why everybody was trying to change me, make me responsible for how they feel?

Until I came upon the teachings of Lojong, the Great Path of Awakening, I had a giant wall between me and other people just because of this reason.

Once I committed to the understanding of Reincarnation and Karma, it became simple to understand and just a bit more difficult to manifest in my life the philosophy of taking responsibility for everything that happens to me, good and bad, and wishing those who remain mired in illusion, and blaming me for their problems, the highest of potentialities regardless.

Every sentient being has been my mother, I have done something to you in a past life, to Bob, to Belle, to Jenci, to Tony. Maybe even killed you all! Muahahahahaaaaa!

So now I take responsibility for you being mad at me.

I love you. I feel you. It's my fault.

[another bob]

I love you. I feel you. It's my fault.

To forgive everybody everything forever -- that to me is the beginning of true compassion.

The next step is to realize there is no blame, there is no fault.

Blame and fault is still part of the illusion of separateness.

There is nothing to forgive, nor anyone to be forgiven.

What is, simply is.




All your images of winter
I see against your sky.

I understand the wounds
That have not healed in you.

They exist
Because God and love
Have yet to become real enough

To allow you to forgive
The dream.

You still listen to an old alley song
That brings your body pain;

Now chain your ears
To His pacing drum and flute.

Fix your eyes upon
The magnificent arch of His brow

That supports
And allows this universe to expand.

Your hands, feet, and heart are wise
And want to know the warmth
Of a Perfect One's circle.

A true saint
Is an earth in eternal spring.

Inside the veins of a petal
On a blooming redbud tree

Are hidden worlds
Where Hafiz sometimes
Resides.

I will spread
A Persian carpet there
Woven with light.

We can drink wine
From a gourd I hollowed
And dried on the roof of my house.

I will bring bread I have kneaded
That contains my own
Divine genes

And cheese from a calf I raised.

My love for your Master is such
You can just lean back
And I will feed you
This truth:

Your wounds of love can only heal
When you can forgive
This dream.

~Hafiz


:yo:

[Fred Steeves]

This bend to the conversation reminds me of Anchor's sage advice, it goes something like this: "If you can't help someone out along their journey, then get out of their way".

How many people have done the same for us along the way? Maybe even some still are...

[Mark]

The next step is to realize there is no blame, there is no fault.

Blame and fault is still part of the illusion of separateness.

When communicating within seperateness you have to use the language of separateness. Doesn't that suck? LOL

There is no you or me.

There is no outside or inside.

There is no black or white.

There is no up or down.

LOLOL

It gets very tedious after a while to be continuously pointing out that none of this is real.

Taking that next step is when the blinders come off and the fact of the 'illusion' is recognized really and truly and made experiential.

But until that experiencing is had, and the blinders are removed, there will remain a separation between an intellectual understanding and the visceral knowing of experience, and people pointing out that there is no computer, there is no typing, there is no spoon, will remain a nuisance and a reason for those without the experience to roll one's eyes. This is a common perspective, isn't it ...

Unless you can bend a spoon for me Bob? LOL

Compassion is similar, as can be evidenced by the lack of it in so many people. It can be shut off, it can be shut down. The heart can be hardened, and then how is one to believe that it is even possible to actually experience what another person is going through emotionally?

Are there not people in the world who very pointedly do not experience compassion for others?

[another bob]

Unless you can bend a spoon for me Bob?

"There is no spoon."

LOL!


Let's not sacrifice one truth (nonduality) in order to assert another (duality) either, my Friend!

Remember, I said, "The next step . . ."

Nondual does not mean not dual, to quote another Friend.

Blessings!

[Mark]

Unless you can bend a spoon for me Bob?

"There is no spoon."

LOL!


Let's not sacrifice one truth (nonduality) in order to assert another (duality) either, my Friend!

Non-dual does not mean not dual, to quote another Friend.

Blessings!

But I think that's my point.

That truth must be sacrificed. All of them.

There is no truth.

[Belle]

If truly there is only one of us here, could we then say that to have compassion for ones self is to have compassion for all?

How can we love others if we do not love ourselves first?

The difficulty for me is to forgive myself. I say that it's easier to forgive others, but is that really forgiveness if I do not apply/experience it toward myself first...perhaps learning along the way that we are already forgiven?

Could that be the difference between knowing and Knowing?

[another bob]

There is no truth.

For your review:

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/two-truths-patrul-rinpoche-lotsawa-house

:yo:

[Fred Steeves]

If truly there is only one of us here, could we then say that to have compassion for ones self is to have compassion for all?

How can we love others if we do not love ourselves first?

The difficulty for me is to forgive myself. I say that it's easier to forgive others, but is that really forgiveness if I do not apply/experience it toward myself first...perhaps learning along the way that we are already forgiven?

Could that be the difference between knowing and Knowing?

I do believe you nicely summed it up there Belle.

[Belle]

This bend to the conversation reminds me of Anchor's sage advice, it goes something like this: "If you can't help someone out along their journey, then get out of their way".

Reminds me of the story of the boy scout who, trying to be helpful, forcefully helps a little old lady across a busy intersection...so focused on helping yet not mindful enough to find out if that is where she wants to go.

[Mark]

*rolls eyes and looks to ~see~ if Bob can bend a spoon* :ballchain:

Words, words, words. It's all semantics. Different ways of saying the same thing. Making what is ultimately simple way too complicated.

Excellent point, Belle ... all in the direction of just BEing without definition, without language.

Language gets in the way of what is really real. Codifies, defines, limits.

Getting past it is getting past all need for argumentation or for misinterpreting what is actually a common experience that we all share.

In the attempt to define it, to act self-referentially and communicate it to others, we find the limits of verbal logic to be many when attempting to describe ...

... what is indescribable.

But we can feel it.

Gotta go with the feeling ... no thinking. NO WORDS.

[Jenci]

Are there not people in the world who very pointedly do not experience compassion for others?


Yes and I feel compassion for them but compassion began with me and all my suffering.

It wasn't until I was able to allow my suffering that I was able to feel compassion for myself. And I felt compassion for my lack of compassion to others, my hate, my prejudice, my fear, my anger, my selfishness....... This is where it began for me being fully immersed in everything that was wrong and everything I had hidden or run from.

Through our suffering we find empathy and reveal compassion.



His Holiness the Dalai Lama:


"The times when you are suffering can be those when you are open, and where you are extremely vulnerable can be where your greatest strength really lies.
Say to yourself: “I am not going to run away from this suffering. I want to use it in the best and richest way I can, so that I can become more compassionate and more helpful to others.” Suffering, after all, can teach us about compassion. If you suffer, you will know how it is when others suffer. And if you are in a position to help others, it is through your suffering that you will find the understanding and compassion to do so."

Exactly ! :)

Jeanette

[Tony]

This bend to the conversation reminds me of Anchor's sage advice, it goes something like this: "If you can't help someone out along their journey, then get out of their way".

How many people have done the same for us along the way? Maybe even some still are...


Hmm, helping someone. On some forums they might kill you for ..............!

[Mark]

Yes, especially if you're judgemental while calling yourself "helping" people.

[Tony]

This bend to the conversation reminds me of Anchor's sage advice, it goes something like this: "If you can't help someone out along their journey, then get out of their way".

How many people have done the same for us along the way? Maybe even some still are...


Hmm, helping someone. On some forums they might kill you for ..............!

What I meant was they might say you are teaching, but that is for another thread!
Compassion is challenging isn't it?


Tony

[another bob]

*rolls eyes and looks to ~see~ if Bob can bend a spoon*

and that would establish what?




Words, words, words. It's all semantics.


"When communicating within seperateness you have to use the language of separateness."

~Rahkyt


:yo:

[Sierra]

I read somewhere recently on another thread (I apologize, I've been grazing widely and I have no idea where it was or who posted it.) that you have to love yourself as you love no one else in the world, and that is the love, that is the source of love that can be poured out on the world.

I've been ruminating on that. It makes sense. If you are not the source, there is no source.

Love youse guys. :)

[Tony]

I love me!;)

[Tony]

The point is, when seeing someone needs help,
one is judging that they need help.
As we all have had help at sometime.

Holding back because of being accused of
Judgement, Ego or Teaching,
lacks courage.

[Tarka the Duck]

Isn't compassion simply about wishing others were free from suffering? And "others" means everyone...people you love and respect, people you dislike, people who have harmed you and hurt those you love, people who irritate the socks off you....;)


Yes, especially if you're judgemental while calling yourself "helping" people.


We are all flawed human beings. We are all susceptible to acting from ego. So what to do, eh? For me, an attempt to help is preferable, even if it may not be done from an ultimately pure motivation.

This is a decision to be made by each individual, and perhaps it is not up to others to judge that decision.

[Mark]

*rolls eyes and looks to ~see~ if Bob can bend a spoon*

and that would establish what?


The emoticon of a smiley straining against the ball in chain is a visual depiction, in this context, of human striving to be released from all constraints while being under the ultimate constraint of material reality.

Even a picture can be condensed into words. But there is a successive loss of understanding with each descent into symbolic representation. From actual experience, to movies, to images, to symbols, to words. These are the limitations of not only language but of all of the 5 senses, in the end. Each sense goes through the filter of the brain, of the ego, is parsed and interpreted according to what we believe we know. Then we use words as tools that sometimes get in the way of the job.


Getting past it is getting past all need for argumentation or for misinterpreting what is actually a common experience that we all share.

In the attempt to define it, to act self-referentially and communicate it to others, we find the limits of verbal logic to be many when attempting to describe ...

... what is indescribable.


There is no truth.


Taking that next step is when the blinders come off and the fact of the 'illusion' is recognized really and truly and made experiential.

All confirming the first point:


I love you. I feel you. It's my fault.

Compassion. Feeling instead of saying. Going beyond talk and intellect. The feeling that we get when we read something that resonates often occurs when the construction of a sentence hits some sort of nerve within us that fires off a thought that sends the neuro-peptides cascading, we feel an emotion, compassion. Empathy, a visceral understanding.

It's all well and good, no matter how it seems, everything is everything, but within the context of our interaction we must use the tools we have with the understanding we have in order to make ourselves understood.

We go around and around again and again to come back to the same place, the same understanding. I always did love the carousel when I was a kid. :whoo:

[Mark]

Isn't compassion simply about wishing others were free from suffering? And "others" means everyone...people you love and respect, people you dislike, people who have harmed you and hurt those you love, people who irritate the socks off you....;)

Yes, Tarka, that is very true and something to always keep in mind. I hear there is a such thing as impersonal compassion. I think that is necessary when attempting to 'feel' for someone that you don't naturally resonate to. Also, as I've seen written here a lot recently, a related understanding, the ones who test our patience or that we might dislike are especially good sources of practicing our compassion. And they are our greatest teachers.

Thank you for that.

[Jenci]

Go to your own suffering first ~ Mooji



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB6QoSRrRv0




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAZcRUAL68&feature=watch_response



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyWJDTHw0GE&feature=watch_response

[OBwan]

Another term for “Impersonal Compassion” mentioned in the previous note is “Detached Compassion”. The ability to let another walk their path in life without judging is my defination of “Detached Compassion”

If one does not judge, then an anger response will not occur. A love response can then be found, and more choices are available.

I like the defination of empathy I found on dictionary.com

The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

[Finefeather]

Compassion is a state of being where all criticism has ceased to exist in your reality.
What many believe is compassion is in fact pity, which is a state of ignorance of the many manifestations life has to offer.
All actions and situations are seen as possibilities in your own quest to experience the full expression of your consciousness.
Only when you are able to accept all actions and situations as been just another experience in someone's life are you compassionate.
Compassion is the highest initiation one takes on the path of truth and enlightenment.
When you are compassionate you let each person or existence experience that which they are experiencing. (Do not get confused here when helping those who cry out for help, that is not compassion.)
The 3rd truism in Metaphysics is: "You cannot fail", whatever you do in life you will never fail, even if you yourself or others think you have failed, because you have just done exactly what you set out to do.
Compassion is not an emotion it is Wisdom at the highest level.

[21CC]

From a heart or source
WITH compelling emotion
Connection to self

[Tony]

You all are starting to sound totally ridiculous, and using this topic for your own aggrandisement.

Kathie's Mother has Motor neuron disease, near total paralysis. She should have been left on her own, because it was where she should be?

Grow up!

Compassion is getting stuck in and helping!

[Eram]

I read somewhere recently on another thread (I apologize, I've been grazing widely and I have no idea where it was or who posted it.) that you have to love yourself as you love no one else in the world, and that is the love, that is the source of love that can be poured out on the world.

I've been ruminating on that. It makes sense. If you are not the source, there is no source.

Love youse guys. :)


That's very nice Sierra and you know what?

I've been thinking about what you wrote here and suddenly it hit me.
This love for self and all other things is already there. It's not something you have to do.... it's there if you want it or not. It's only hidden behind the mind.
So .....it is absolutely true what you said, but the love is already there.

Maybe I'm rambling a bit...
not such a word smith as some are haha, but to me it felt good to recognize this.

[Fred Steeves]

You all are starting to sound totally ridiculous, and using this topic for your own aggrandisement.

Kathie's Mother has Motor neuron disease, near total paralysis. She should have been left on her own, because it was where she should be?

Grow up!

Compassion is getting stuck in and helping!

Well alrighty then.

[Tarka the Duck]

Compassion is a sense of shared suffering, and as a direct result of that, a desire to alleviate that suffering naturally arises.
It is an outcome of the empathetic feeling and comes from being able to feel the situation from someone else's perspective. Some may choose to label that as ego-driven interference...and others may feel that non-action is equivalent to indifference.

I see it as one of the most important and profound subjects, and should underpin every aspect of this relative world...I would even go so far as to say that is a natural law! And if it's not, it should be ;)

There's a great book by Simon Baron-Cohen called Zero Degrees of Empathy where is examines the premise that violence can only exist in the absence of empathy and that a lack of empathy - thoughtless or cruel behaviour - stems from "people turning people into objects".

[Finefeather]

You all are starting to sound totally ridiculous, and using this topic for your own aggrandisement.

Kathie's Mother has Motor neuron disease, near total paralysis. She should have been left on her own, because it was where she should be?

Grow up!

Compassion is getting stuck in and helping!

I guess you have never wondered what Kathie's Mother's soul really wanted to experience in this life.
And obviously we help people in life, that's part of your growth to help and love those around you when someone cannot fend for themselves, that is not compassion, that all depends on your motive.
"getting stuck in and helping" is not compassion, do I need compassion when I get stuck in and help someone with the dishes?
Your wisdom is questionable.

[Tarka the Duck]

I guess you have never wondered what Kathie's Mother's soul really wanted to experience in this life.

Aside from the fact that you have no idea whether Tony considered this matter or not, none of us is able to answer that question.
We each have to follow what we see as the most beneficial course of action: in this particular situation, getting stuck in and helping was exactly what her body and mind needed in this life. Doing otherwise would have caused her unbearable suffering: if that was what her soul had wanted in this life, then we were prepared to take the consequences of interfering with that.

[Ceedub]

When compassion is Known, forgiveness is transcended.

[Sierra]

I read somewhere recently on another thread (I apologize, I've been grazing widely and I have no idea where it was or who posted it.) that you have to love yourself as you love no one else in the world, and that is the love, that is the source of love that can be poured out on the world.

I've been ruminating on that. It makes sense. If you are not the source, there is no source.

Love youse guys. :)


That's very nice Sierra and you know what?

I've been thinking about what you wrote here and suddenly it hit me.
This love for self and all other things is already there. It's not something you have to do.... it's there if you want it or not. It's only hidden behind the mind.
So .....it is absolutely true what you said, but the love is already there.

Maybe I'm rambling a bit...
not such a word smith as some are haha, but to me it felt good to recognize this.

Yes! Quieting the mind, getting back to the source is a loverly thing to do ... (nudge nudge wink wink)

[Eram]

Yes! Quieting the mind, getting back to the source is a loverly thing to do ... (nudge nudge wink wink)

hehe.... I'm working on that Sierra. For me it is very nice to be in a phase where I can read a post like yours which makes me feel like I have to do something to be able to become someone and after that come to the realisation that I don't have to do anything because it's already there.


Anyway... to throw in my understanding of compassion....
Compassion to me is, recognising the thing that someone is going through without giving in to the need to change that persons situation into something that I believe to be a better situation, but rather ... hmmm.. I'm lost for words here. I can feel it ..... but it's to difficult to put into words. It is something very selfless.
I have it with my kids sometimes... I can see them struggling with a situation and I force myself to stay in my own 'I am' zone and allow their situation to be just their situation. It is an allowing .... and a feeling for at the same time.
hmmm....... rambling again sorry! :)

[<8>]

Hi...


A really old lady who live next door to me, she use to walk her little dog everyday. You know, real slow but she got where she was supposed to go.
I always took the time to listen and she was so positive even though she struggled in life.

A few weeks ago, A big rottweiler literally bite her little dog into pieces, and I have not seen the old lady after this.
Now, what I have noticed after this, is how everybody I meet bring up this story. And there are more details how the little dog continues to struggle.
And every time I ask, have anyone talked to the old lady, because it was her best friend who got killed so she must be really sad now.

Almost everyone looks at me like who cares, and some even say she was a weird old lady.
People are so caught up in the violence, it's like the drug addicts wanting a new fix = as in more details about how terrible it was.

Today I was thinking that I wanted to hug her if I ever saw her again, that is compassion to me. To be able to see past everything.
It's uncondionally, it's beyond all our little mind games in this reality.

She one time ask me about quotes in the bible that had her worried, I just told her that should not take everything literally.
Because we all do mistakes and it still were normal people who wrote the bible.....

I hope she makes it through this...

[Belle]

We've spent a lot of time and words attempting to describe compassion, and teach compassion, and explain the parameters of compassion...all the while avoiding the point of this thread. It's created an avalanche and war of words.

Is it really that difficult? Or must the simplest of answers continue to slip past our notice because we all know (little k) so much.

Boy, do we have a long way to grow.

[music]

another bob: To forgive everybody everything forever -- that to me is the beginning of true compassion.


Never forgetting that everybody includes ourselves. We must also have compassion toward ourselves.

[Mark]

We are all flawed human beings. We are all susceptible to acting from ego. So what to do, eh? For me, an attempt to help is preferable, even if it may not be done from an ultimately pure motivation.

This is a decision to be made by each individual, and perhaps it is not up to others to judge that decision.

OK, Kathy. You edited this quite a while later, let me address your edit, which is the inclusion of my quote and all that came after:

when that judgmental nature is in total opposition to the help being offered, when it is derogatory in nature, it is indeed a sign that we are a work in progress.

compassion in that example is understanding that everyone involved must be protected within the context of the space they are sharing.

if i'm telling people they need to be a certain way and then i'm calling those people names, calling them deluded, stupid, at the same time what does that say about me?

i suppose there is a tough kind of compassion. my natal expression and persona (biological hardwiring) is as sun and ascendant scorpio. i retain much of that in my expression. i can be harsh sometimes. as you say, we are works in progress.

i am always willing to be open, to share, to be friendly. i do not hold grudges. i release, feel compassion, engage in lojong and wish for the best for all sentient beings, including you and tony and everyone else i interact and those i do not interact with. that is indicative of the fact that i try very hard not make judgments about others. but i do recognize patterns of behavior and if i see them constantly repeating themselves over and over i will comment on the pattern.

but patterns can change. recognizing that and allowing for it is the heart of compassion.

[lyubomir]

Hi Fred Steeves,

You explain something from very deep of you heart. This is something very special...

Keep doing you my friend!

Kind Regards,

Lyubomir

[karelia]

Thread closed for now, upon request.