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dreamchaser
18th August 2010, 13:54
How did it come about that we have to pay the government money for a house on a piece of land? Obviously we didnt always have to. We didnt always have money, and governments. Tribes of cave people likely had to go wherever the food was. And lived as such. As we evolved and grew in knowledge we learned to do many things! One ONLY has to look at the world today to see the way humans have shaped it. We learned to make tools, clothes, huts. We learned how to domesticate certain crops, and animals, and we passed this knowledge on to our children, and so on, and so on until what? A governing body told us we now all had to do it another way, their way?

Who decided things HAD to change like that? And why was it apparently just accepted by everyone? Ok, so money took over as the approved means of barter. BUT, did everyone just forget that we learned most of what we knew about surviving off the land on our own, without money, and governments? Funny how in foresight we can look at a decision and see it as a step forward, and then look back and maybe realise it was actually a step back.

So, what have we learned from our history, our heritage? I KNOW there are many fundamental things that are either just plain wrong or some that are dangerous to the point of threatening our survival on earth, our mother, the living planet that gave us life.

One thing i just cannot fathom though is the earth gave birth to ALL life. it was here long before any of us, and will likely be here long after all life is gone. Why do we have to pay the government, who apparently work for us, to use the land we were all born on? Like many things in the world today it doesnt make any sense.

Love and peace to all. :love:

Wood
18th August 2010, 14:17
The idea behind taxes is to fund the government, that serves the people, so it can provide services to the people ensuring that the human rights and other basic needs are covered regardless of your actual income: food, water, housing, education, healthcare, security, etc.
I think it is good in theory. The government should support people in our current state, where we have fragile bodies compared with the environment. The government should be the true representative of the community.

The bad part, though, is that we put the wrong people in government and they use the taxes to wage wars, enrich themselves, pollute the environment and keep the people controlled through many means.

However, I think the 'survival of the fittest' scenario is even worse. To let people just organise themselves in small communities would put the civilisation back a few hundred years. Also, small communities are weaker against warlords and natural catastrophes.

I think we have to pursue a raise in consciousness so we will put good people in charge of the administration of our planet. With good administration I mean one that supports everyone to express themselves to their true potential and not a big-brother type of administration.

I think the best example of society we have nowadays in the world is the scandinavian. I am sure it has flaws and it may be getting worse since the 90's, but I think it is a good prototype given our current level of awareness.

RedeZra
18th August 2010, 14:20
hi Dreamchaser

it's all a design - a plan and a plot - to make the many poor and eventually without property at all

it's not nice but we need to think positive and invite God into our lives

God is working to change this system and with a little help from our positive thoughts words and deeds - it might be accomplished in a couple of decades

Steven
18th August 2010, 15:52
...God is working to change this system and with a little help from our positive thoughts words and deeds - it might be accomplished in a couple of decades

Indeed, we need to unite under a common ground, and it is our spiritual heritage.

The notion of property is in my opinion way to much distorted by our actual system. The laws that defines it are quite complicated, hidden, and remarquably globalist. If some people are thinking about the laws of the land and the laws of the seas, look at the agenda 21!

In my opinion, this notion has to be transcended at another level of consciousness. We are not owner, we are experiencer. We come here and go and let the place to our children. The owning notion is not really adequate because it creates all sort of distortion in our society. Look at the extreme. The 'latifundarios' in latin america. One familly own a piece of land in the brasilan amazon forset as big as Belgium! And they do nothing with it, while there are over 10 millions of 'sem-terra' or 'without land' brasilian who waits a piece of land to cultivate.

In my opinion, we are not owner of a land, but responsible of it. Its use, developpement and protection for the future generation to come. We need our land to survive. If a specie from an outside world come here and tell us we are not the owner of Earth, they are right. But, if they tell us they are the owner, they are wrong. The ones that needs it for its survival, developement and evolution is the one responsible for its use, developement and protection.

I have a piece of land, it was to my ancestors before me. I will transfere it to my sons and hope they will do the same for the generation to come. But, I gradually changed my notion of ownership to a notion of 'usership'. I am responsible for this land because this land will be still there for human necessities after my death.

Namaste, Steven

dreamchaser
18th August 2010, 16:27
Thanks for everyones words on this thread. I agree with all the opinions expressed here, but I have a problem with the money side of it. Money is said to be a value of us? Personally I think we are ALL worth more than something that can be burned or reshaped with some simple tools! lol ;)

Luke
18th August 2010, 17:07
Let me chime in.
Do we OWN the land? we did not created it, we barely understood how processes that made this earth work, we don't even know how precisely ecosystem that support our "vehicles" work.
There is no way we own the land. We are at best, stewards of this rich environment, but right now we behave like plague.
----
That said, governments et all are ideas, and as any idea, they are as good as people putting them to use. Personally I believe that this government is best that governs least, preferably not at all. Laissez-nous faire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez_faire)!

dreamchaser
18th August 2010, 17:44
Perhaps it would be best if we all realised the truth that this earth governs US! She has been creating life for a very long time! We, as the "masters" of the earth try to immitate the way the earth does some things, and in the process of doing so we cause as much progress for our "civilisation" as we do to destroy our home, our life giving mother. We are all embryos! Why do i believe this to be true? Because we do not listen to our life giving mother. We are not yet ready to leave her protective embrace. We havent grown up yet, and the time is now to start doing just that. :love:

Wood
18th August 2010, 17:59
I agree we do not have any right to own the land. We have our spirits. We incarnate here in flesh made out of the earth's matter, and we leave that flesh here when we exit. We only borrow things here, and I believe our behaviour as guests here is, in general, deplorable.

Luke
18th August 2010, 18:19
(...) We havent grown up yet, and the time is now to start doing just that. :love:
Precisely my thoughts :) :thumb:

sjkted
18th August 2010, 20:12
The idea behind taxes is to fund the government, that serves the people, so it can provide services to the people ensuring that the human rights and other basic needs are covered regardless of your actual income: food, water, housing, education, healthcare, security, etc.
I think it is good in theory. The government should support people in our current state, where we have fragile bodies compared with the environment. The government should be the true representative of the community.

The bad part, though, is that we put the wrong people in government and they use the taxes to wage wars, enrich themselves, pollute the environment and keep the people controlled through many means.


You got it right. The problem is that it is always the wrong people in government. I like to call them the power party, whether they are democrats, republicans, etc with very, very few exceptions. Their goal is to get and maintain power. They are nihilists. They don't care whether we sacrifice one group or another or if few people are rich and many are poor, or if society is just, or if people are safe. They only care about getting into office and staying there and keeping their position. It's always been this way. The only solution I have seen that is viable is to have a Constitution and Bill of Rights that recognizes natural, unalienable birth rights that citizens have and constrains the power of government to due process and law making, burdens of evidence, etc. so they are not unlimited in their power.

--sjkted

sjkted
18th August 2010, 20:23
Thanks for everyones words on this thread. I agree with all the opinions expressed here, but I have a problem with the money side of it. Money is said to be a value of us? Personally I think we are ALL worth more than something that can be burned or reshaped with some simple tools! lol ;)

I wanted to respond to this because it's an important topic. Our money system is so distorted, it's impossible to explain how things should be in terms of the current system.

If a country has a sound currency that cannot be manipulated (such as gold or silver), then the natural course of the economy is deflation. That is a good thing. It basically means that things get less expensive because we get smarter -- we find better ways to deliver products and services through technology and efficiencies and better organization. If this is happening, it basically means that we all become wealthier because we can work less hours and things aren't as expensive. Think of how expensive it used to be to have a cell phone. It used to be just for the very rich as it could cost as much as some people were paying for their rent/mortgage payments. Now, nearly everyone has a cell phone.

There are game changers that could entirely change our monetary system. One of these is electric vehicles and another is free energy. If you see the movie Who Killed The Electric Car, we had cars that were about $25K in the late 1980's that could drive at freeway speeds and get 300 miles on a charge. If this wasn't killed, we would have an entire electrical car based infrastructure that could be solar powered. When you combine this with the decreasing cost of solar panels, it could be dirt cheap to drive as much as you want in the near future. These game changers are completely suppressed under our current system, because it would mean that companies like GM would lose money.

The end game for a natural economy operating with natural deflation is that money loses its value. Eventually, when you have all of the new advancements coupled with free or extremely cheap energy and innovations, it would cost almost nothing to buy practically anything you could think of (even expensive items like a jet plane) -- the only remaining "cost" would be that of materials which could be a value given by society. After, all does anyone really "own" the land on which the natural resources sit?

It's something to think about, but we could very easily evolve past needing currency if the system was allowed to run its natural course.

--sjkted

Steven
18th August 2010, 20:46
...After, all does anyone really "own" the land on which the natural resources sit?

No. We use 'owner' but its rather a right of use that doesn't go deep into the ground ;) Of course, it is different from a country to another and the laws change without any warning.

But, one thing for sure is that the authority of any country can easily get you out of the way for many reasons considered as 'public affairs' if your property becomes the interest of the government/buisness power.

So, the concept of ownership isn't absolute in laws for the citizen, but certainly is for the 'ones above all laws'. They give us the right to use the land, as long as they don't need it. We are second class citizens.

I find the old ways of the native american to have an instructive example of philosophy on the relationship we should have with the lands. We come from the lands, naturally, we do not own it, but rather depends upon it for survival. The notion of respecting the land is increased in this point of view.

Namaste, Steven

dreamchaser
19th August 2010, 16:32
My heart is warmed to know Im not the only one who feels this way about the world. ;)

Of course I knew already, but Im happier to be able to talk about it!! :D

Aniusia
20th August 2010, 11:47
The Green Beautiful - Movie - Banned in EU


Did you ever wonder why the floor under your feet, in the place where you live are covered with a gray material and you canít see the soil? Why you use pieces of paper entitling you to any value, without which you wonít have nothing, not even food?[...]

......If you havenít wondered on all this, its because youíre like an ant, small cell in the super-organisma and canít see beyond your cellís vision.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5CmMm_SRpM

THIS IS WHAT OUR LIFES SHOULD LOOK LIKE

Everyone interested in pure life, love and our planet should read ANASTASIA:
http://www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org...lish/index.php

:wub:
Anna

Rimbaud
25th August 2010, 02:09
I may be off thread here, but I've always understood that even if you own a house..anything more than fifteen feet under your foundations automatically become part of the State. There were cases of folk digging for coal under their homes after the last World war..a ruling was made to establish State ownership and as far as I'm aware it still exists. In the UK and France anyway.

Rimbaud

sjkted
25th August 2010, 02:28
I may be off thread here, but I've always understood that even if you own a house..anything more than fifteen feet under your foundations automatically become part of the State. There were cases of folk digging for coal under their homes after the last World war..a ruling was made to establish State ownership and as far as I'm aware it still exists. In the UK and France anyway.

Rimbaud

I'm not sure if that's entirely the case here in the US, but if you do some research on water rights which is often more than 15 feet under the ground, it's quite laughable. For example, some people buy property that confers water rights based on some system. Their neighbors may have no water rights and thus cannot dig a well on their property or take the water from it. In some states here, it is illegal to collect rainwater. These government people actually think there isn't enough to go around or something? lol.

--sjkted

dreamchaser
25th August 2010, 09:20
Ok, so then basicly no one has the right to try to take care of themselves past the eye of the great governmental monster. And that we all may OWN a piece of land that was here before any life was here, and will be here long after out bodies turn to dust! Actually thats just to crazy for me to try to wrap me head around at this hour of the morning! :s

Rimbaud
30th August 2010, 00:35
I'm not sure if that's entirely the case here in the US, but if you do some research on water rights which is often more than 15 feet under the ground, it's quite laughable. For example, some people buy property that confers water rights based on some system. Their neighbors may have no water rights and thus cannot dig a well on their property or take the water from it. In some states here, it is illegal to collect rainwater. These government people actually think there isn't enough to go around or something? lol.

--sjkted

I live in a part of the World where water literally pours out of every crevice and crack in the mountain..we actually have to siphon off hundreds of gallons per day which pours into the river below us..That's just my own home...Tens of thousands of gallons of pure water pour off my mountain alone and just dump into the torrent that are French rivers and tributaries..Never a day goes past that I don't think what a waste of precious water goes by..It's rather horrible to contemplate the waste

Rimbaud

Celine
30th August 2010, 00:44
i assure you it is not wasted...

Rivers, tributaries, lakes.... water feeds many

Rimbaud
8th September 2010, 01:27
Celine..I'd just like to to send it where needed in a magical kind of way..in my mind so to speak...I see those kids in Africa, India and any other deprived parts of the World when they have to walk miles to get fresh water..and I see my water sumps pouring all that spring water over the cliffs. I admit that there's nothing that I can do about it however.

God Bless

Andrew

Deega
8th September 2010, 22:58
Hi,

Interesting Tread, we don't often have that question, "who own the land...?", I think that we are part of the land. Societies (by their authority - wealthy financiers) have established through the years that there was an ownership issue in structuring the economy of yester years.

In Canada, you owe a title of a land if you pay your property taxes, if you don't, your title will be put to sell by the government, and he (government) can also decide to make it part of government property for future uses.

On the money question, I humbly think that it was instituted way back as a means of exchanges, but with time, it has become a big business difficult to handle.

All my blessings.

Deega

Ross
9th September 2010, 00:24
Australia:

According to the maxim "to whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also to the sky and to the depths", there is a presumption that a land owner also owns all minerals on or beneath the surface of that land.[3] The presumption is subject to the exception of the Royal metals. As early as the sixteenth century, the common law has held that all gold and silver, whether situated on public or private land, has been owned by the Crown.[4] This Royal prerogative has also been applied in Australia, by both common law[5] and legislation.[6]

However, the principle of the owner of land owning the minerals within it has been virtually abolished by statute in Australia. The general rule is that the Crown (in right of the State) owns all minerals. This has been implemented by statute; initially by enacting that all future grants of land must contain a reservation to the Crown of all minerals. Now, all new grants of freehold titles in Australia have provided that all minerals were reserved to the Crown.

In respect of titles granted prior to the legislation, the owner of the land retained ownership of the minerals (except the Royal metals of gold and silver). That owner may grant a profit ŗ prendre to enter and take minerals.

Crown ownership of minerals has been made universal in Victoria[7] and South Australia[8] by legislative expropriation of all minerals. In Tasmania[9] and New South Wales,[10] this approach of legislative expropriation has been applied on a selective basis (in Tasmania, for gold, silver, oil, hydrogen, helium and atomic substances, and, in New South Wales, for coal). The Crown, pursuant to statute, may grant various leases or licences to enter onto land and take minerals.

State ownership of minerals has had the important result that governments, rather than private landholders, determine the legal regimes governing mineral exploration and production.

So...if you find gold, or any other metals worth a pinch and all minerals on your 'paid for property' it is not yours! also note: ON OR BENEATH your land.

Regards

Ross

Rimbaud
10th September 2010, 22:09
Australia:

According to the maxim "to whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also to the sky and to the depths", there is a presumption that a land owner also owns all minerals on or beneath the surface of that land.[3] The presumption is subject to the exception of the Royal metals. As early as the sixteenth century, the common law has held that all gold and silver, whether situated on public or private land, has been owned by the Crown.[4] This Royal prerogative has also been applied in Australia, by both common law[5] and legislation.[6]

However, the principle of the owner of land owning the minerals within it has been virtually abolished by statute in Australia. The general rule is that the Crown (in right of the State) owns all minerals. This has been implemented by statute; initially by enacting that all future grants of land must contain a reservation to the Crown of all minerals. Now, all new grants of freehold titles in Australia have provided that all minerals were reserved to the Crown.

In respect of titles granted prior to the legislation, the owner of the land retained ownership of the minerals (except the Royal metals of gold and silver). That owner may grant a profit ŗ prendre to enter and take minerals.

Crown ownership of minerals has been made universal in Victoria[7] and South Australia[8] by legislative expropriation of all minerals. In Tasmania[9] and New South Wales,[10] this approach of legislative expropriation has been applied on a selective basis (in Tasmania, for gold, silver, oil, hydrogen, helium and atomic substances, and, in New South Wales, for coal). The Crown, pursuant to statute, may grant various leases or licences to enter onto land and take minerals.

State ownership of minerals has had the important result that governments, rather than private landholders, determine the legal regimes governing mineral exploration and production.

So...if you find gold, or any other metals worth a pinch and all minerals on your 'paid for property' it is not yours! also note: ON OR BENEATH your land.

Regards

Ross

Ross,

That's pretty much the same as I discovered when I bought this house in France...We are allowed limitless water and access to thermodynamic energy..tax free! (They could hardly tax us considering that we sit on a water spring..on the side of a volcano!). We have rows with our local Council..as to who has to clean up the mess caused by the last Earthquake!..our last biggie was a 7.2 biggie..I watched my home and business moving 20 feet from left to right..We're all ok though and so is the house.

What I'm about to say will blow all of your minds...My home..where I live was built by the Rothschilds; right next to the silver mine that they owned in the French Pyrenees!..I actually live in and own a Roth House...but bloody well had to pay for it!!..How unfair is that!

Greetings with humour and love

Rimbaud

dreamchaser
14th September 2010, 14:53
Umm, I was TRYing to communicate that no person can OWN land anywhere!. Its quite rediculous to me the idea that anyone can own land that that not only outlives people, but has been here before ALL life! lol

Ba-ba-Ra
14th September 2010, 18:13
I can't remember who said it but the quote goes something like:

The only thing that's crazier than putting a fence around a piece of land and calling it yours, is the other people who believe it.

I guess the truth really is, we don't own anything. Current gov'ts have seen to that. Here in U.S. even our cars. Try not registering your car or boat or paying insurance on them. Before long it will be impounded. Same with land if you don't pay taxes in a timely fashion. Try catching a fish or snagging a deer without a license (which is a form of payment for the goods). Now they are even trying to limit what fruits and vegetables you can grow on your own property. Here in California, you often don't own the mineral or water rights to your land. Large corporations bought them years ago and the rights stay with them. A law has even been passed saying that all the gold in all the rivers belongs to gov't. So if you go gold panning & find something - don't tell anyone. And then if you try and sell it you have to do it illegally.

I agree we need to support gov't for the good of all, but as we all know, that no longer happens (and perhaps never did) at least in most parts of the world. Time for something new. I believe we're all ready!

Luke
14th September 2010, 18:46
See, whole problem is:
Property it theft, Property is impossible, Property is freedom
And all are true.

Ross
14th September 2010, 21:38
Umm, I was TRYing to communicate that no person can OWN land anywhere!. Its quite rediculous to me the idea that anyone can own land that that not only outlives people, but has been here before ALL life! lol

My last property was a gem, one person said to me, 'wow' you own this? I said, well, Ive paid for it in money but I dont own it, I only have the right to be here for the time I wish to, I am only the custodian...

Regards
Ross