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Reaver
18th October 2012, 22:50
A fatalist rant, I almost cut my veins when I finished the product:

Spirituality and Authenticity go together. The idea of spirituality is also related to the idea of being authentic, to find and create expressions which ultimately are used to refine the Human Totality.

You have to understand that the ideas of Spirituality and Authenticity have been severely prostituted through the ages and the Alternative Media has also done a good job to give its Frankensteined versions to pacify people with ideas of Peace & Love.

Religions have sold Spirituality as something which requires submission of some kind. Islam, Judaism and Christianity require people to surrender to an idea which is supposed to be bigger than themselves and this idea has various methods to keep people in check, something like taking advantage of people's fear of death and promising a place of eternal damnation for their eternal and sinful soul.

Religions which revolve around Karma require another kind of submission to some unknowable destiny, a compound interest on your soul so that you don't question why your life is so miserable and why there's so much insanity in the world... these religions would have you believe that it's all because you were a bad boy/girl in some ancient past life that you don't even remember... meanwhile the priest class will feast at your miserable expense. So this is far from being Spiritual, it is closer to Psychopathy, Neurosis and what have you. This insanity couldn't possibly offer any venues for Authenticity.

Modern times do a good of job when it comes to corrupting an idea like Authenticity. You've got all sorts of masks to decorate your miserable life. Cultural programming has a key role to play in all of this because in some distant past there were people who launched revolutions, offered political reforms and died for you (even though you didn't even lived back then).... so this can only mean that you are free... free to choose one of the many carbon copies so that you can become "it".

Perhaps you can be a big CEO... you'll get your stars on your forehead in school, you'll get your cute degree and your mighty PhD, you'll work in the Corporation and rise to the top... in the end it turns out you are a pedophile and an emotionally unstable person who has too much money and very few brain cells since you also happen to be a coke abuser. This can only be a Simulacra of Authenticity to keep you pacified while you dream about becoming the big noise and the biggest PIMP in town.

Ah, aren't we Aware folks conscious of all this? now comes the harsh truth that few within the Alternative Media are willing to accept. The fact that the Alternative Media is a three ring circus for the most part. This is a medium which provides a permutation of the old Simulacra you see taking place within society day in and day out.

A place where people can get together to repudiate their mind, be afraid of Judgement and take all kinds of pretty labels to avoid facing the Truth. Who is willing to come face to face with the fact that this world is going down the drain, that maybe one of these days the Leviathan is gonna kick the door down and rape their children... that's just too painful to face.

So what we'll do is to create brand new versions of corrupted Spirituality and Authenticity. We have terms like Indigo, Star seed, Star child, Multidimensional, Light bodies, Divine. But everyone seems to be scared ****less of just being a mere human being who has to put effort, sweat, blood and tears to achieve perfection (if that's even possible). Who wants to stare at the abyss only to realize that they have been seriously dissociated since day one? who wants to stare at a mirror to see their own weakness reflected?

Some even like to use the term "The Powers That Were" so that the monster may go away. The next day you'll look outside the window to see a mother screaming because her only child was blown up into tiny pieces by the Artillery Shells which were commissioned by "The Powers That Were" and she asks to the heavens "Why, why, why, why". You'll walk down the street repeating cute phrases like "We are multidimensional beings" "We are already perfect" "The Powers That Were" and all of a sudden you stare at a bloody gang fight were dozens are killed in cold blood.

You keep deluding yourself with your cute phrases. You want to prove to yourself that "All is Well" "All is as it should be" so you find a person to tell her/him everything about The Powers That Were and everything about their Multidimensional nature, your cute hopes get crushed when you realize this person couldn't care less and thinks you are nuts.... ah, but everything is as it should be, you tell yourself that "All is Well".

The night comes down and the nasty images comes rushing to your mind, somehow you know you should accept that the Elite still have a pretty strong grip on people's destiny and that most people just want to make it in the big leagues... you don't want to accept the Truth which shows you that there are very few people who give a **** and who have little to no cohesion... this realization is too painful so you'll wake up, repeat your delusional mantras and maybe you'll just have a nice and polite exchange on a virtual forum where no one strives to better themselves... because the pain is so great that you and your "Awake and Aware" peers have degraded Truth into another recreational activity.

You are scared of writing what you really feel and think so like an ostrich you'll bury your head in your ass and hide behind civility... you are so afraid of having to walk steep roads that you won't bother to study the works of people who had great ideas, you won't bother to challenge yourself and so you'll let someone else do it for you... you prefer your stupid camaraderie, you prefer to deny Judgement because that's bad according to your favourite alternative celebrities, you prefer your fake smiles and your pretty thoughts of compassion.

How can anyone who denies the harsh and ugly reality within themselves and out there call themselves authentic and spiritual? how can anyone who is afraid of becoming more be called authentic? I call these types delusional.

Of course some nebulous, painless and fluffy kind of spirituality is more popular with some people. To attempt the Hero's Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) towards Authenticity is too much to ask. We want unicorns to ride, not dragons to face.

We only want our hugs and our smile and our fluffy compassion... we want ascension, we want benevolent aliens, we want a massive change in consciousness.... but please dear "Source" don't allow us to stand alone in the cold cave of the world, don't give us sleepless nights where the awareness of a world that is and the awareness of that world that should've been clash within our fragile minds.

Dear "Source" give us our Placebo so that we can numb our pain and become Inauthentic expressions of ourselves, the pain is too much to bare, please give us our spiritual terms and send your legions of friendly ETs to make this nightmare stop.

But what if we are alone in this sector of the Universe, the Source has forgotten about its children and there's no alien army nor a cosmic wave that will save the day,? can we face the possibility that we are alone in a Dark Abyss and that it's up to us and only us to get ourselves out of this mess? can we face the possibility that we are far from being divine and that we are a bunch of broken humans who have to sweat and bleed to achieve divinity?

Fred Steeves
18th October 2012, 23:06
Reaver, the day is coming when the Truth you know in your heart will rise to match that of your "beautiful mind", to steal a movie phrase. When that happens, you will truly be a force in this world to be reckoned with.

I'm glad to know you, even though we are often at odds.(LOL)

Cheers Mate,
Fred

Cartomancer
18th October 2012, 23:12
Well said and well written. Hang in there. Knowing what is going on is a large part of the solution.

Gardener
18th October 2012, 23:30
Nothing fatalist about that rant Reaver, in fact it is a very acute truth which everyone (you and me included) needs to look at with some deep introspection every single day of our lives if we are to even begin to root out the insidious lies we tell ourselves.
I like this story of Reprobus..........it reminds me where the hero's journey begins, with a lot of good intentions.
http://www.thehighcalling.org/attitude/christbearer-story-saint-christopher

Sammy
18th October 2012, 23:57
Nothing fatalist about that rant Reaver, in fact it is a very acute truth which everyone (you and me included) needs to look at with some deep introspection every single day of our lives if we are to even begin to root out the insidious lies we tell ourselves.
I like this story of Reprobus..........it reminds me where the hero's journey begins, with a lot of good intentions.
http://www.thehighcalling.org/attitude/christbearer-story-saint-christopher

Quite interesting as I recently discovered that (for me) the foundation of all my intentions depends entirely upon my attitude. Cheers, Chester

Hervé
19th October 2012, 00:22
Fatalist... nop!

Realist... yep!

By their fruit... where are the fruits of 1000s of years of prayers, positive thinking and love and light fluffs?

Then, one only needs to look around to notice the fruits of those same 1000s of years of organized programming, the planned warss, the yearly increase of missing children, etc...

markpierre
19th October 2012, 02:27
If you can remove the idea of 'spiritual' from everything you've illustrated, then put it back and include absolutely everything without exception,
you might have an easier time with what you still regard as inauthentic.
It is all authentic. Every fraud and ridiculous pandering to outside forces. It authentically reflects your own predisposition to judgement.

"Enter the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road is spacious which leads to destruction, and many are those who are going in it.
How narrow is the gate and strict the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it!" Whether that's Matthew associated with Christianity is irrelevant.
It's solid advice.

No one wants to hear that. But the easiest way to deny it is to pretend to embrace it. Form armies to protect that pretense. Hence 'religion', and then hence 'spiritual' identity.
No one is fooled when they stumble across the need in themselves to be honest, and then brutally honest. It's a change so unprecedented and startling in the individual
that it changes everything. The world from a place to hide and seek safety in the status quot, into a place that rejects everything about the awakening mind.

The 'few' is you, but probably not until you've seemingly incidentally found yourself on the razors edge. You discovered it, you didn't create it.
So use the blessing of coming to recognize what life 'isn't', and allow that discovery in everyone else. In their time, in their own way. You can spend a lot of fruitless attention and worry
on what has to change in it's own timing and in it's own way. Attention better spent balancing on that razor. Your world will always reflect exactly what you need to see, and what you have yet to take responsibility for. The responsibility is in acceptance without judgement.

That's a good thing isn't it? Who is it that's waking up? It's you. Just you.

modwiz
19th October 2012, 04:20
Yum yum, a delicious meal from your mind, Reaver. . I am always comforted hearing the voice of someone who "gets it". A few more and we could fill a Volkswagen. Although authenticity needs no second opinion, it does not mind some company.

The generosity and compassion of your post will likely go largely unrecognized. 9eagle9 demonstrated how welcome the truth is. Her problem is she stayed with someone and tried to talk them through their stuckness, even smacking them when they got hysterical. Only in the movies does smacking an hysteric bring them back to reason. In real life they just get indignant and call you mean. Maybe even call the police.

Most think compassion is treacly goo and ego massages and therefore end up staying stuck. The evidence is in the world we find ourselves in. A handful of psychopaths almost retarded from inbreeding running the world, because people have had bad relationships with (insert whoever), and need their hand held through a lifetime of therapy.

Thanks again, Reaver. One of the most refreshing posts I have read in some time. :thumb:

lookbeyond
19th October 2012, 04:49
Hey Reaver, i hav days like this too, but to survive we all spend a bit of time in denial in our reality to pay the bills, at least ur awake and realise that we do hav to do the "work" ourselves, yet as you may discover thru a lifetime of experience (possibly yet to come) there is more than meets the eye to this world...

Kind Reguards lookbeyond

Sammy
19th October 2012, 10:35
When a human being is dealing with any other one or more human beings, you have beings interacting which in almost all cases are only aware of 5% or so of the makeup of their minds. To phrase it another way, most human beings exists solely within their conscious mind and give no value to the other 19/20ths of the rest of their mind component. No wonder they appear inauthentic and/or act inauthentic. How can one "authentically" be what one does not even know? So I see most of us actually quite inauthentic (I place my former self at the top of this list / I place my current self making measurable strides).

Thus for me, authentic beings have been able to undo their "petty" egos (the ego shell around their conscious mind) such that they are able to integrate and then get to know the vast untapped resource of the rest of their soul. This is when a "healthy ego" begins to emerge (a rare sight to see on our lovely planet IMO).

An authentic being (to me) is one who strives to get to the root of themselves. Note that none of this has anything to do with morals or intentions. Those "things" - morals and intentions come from choices. A person can better know themselves and still choose to attempt to become archon of the multiverses. It just gives them a better shot at achieving their goal if they are honest with themselves, allow themselves to accurately look themselves in the mirror, deconstruct what they think they see and then allow the foundation that is left to become a consciously connected being. This does not mean that they will give a **** about anyone else.

Anyways, when this is done, the Spirit Being has achieved unity. They have become a realized quantum being. Their future now rests solely (again) in their hands. I am sure the top echelon of the illumed and nutty are for the most part realized quantum beings.

Now for some speculation - There is likely a balanced component of solo practitioners that are quite realized quantum beings who are not aligned with the perceived goals of the "illuminati" but note the word solo. At the deepest levels of the psyche, something suggests to me it may all balance out down to one very last teensee tinesee decision that is constantly being made over and over - "Is my self hatred going to ultimately consume me or am I going to cry uncle and choose to live in positive relationship with the rest of myself?"

Now, being a handicapper by trade, the odds of extending the time span (or the experiential "time span" some might see as "extension") increases in proportion to the degree we choose to seek ways to live with each other as opposed to resting in the obsession to destroy each other... but what do I know anyways?

At least I suggested taking the 7.5 points last night in the Seattle / SF NFL contest (the game landed on 7). Sometimes even the clueless can guess a coin flip right, hey?

justone

greybeard
19th October 2012, 11:25
Yogananda said " The darkness comes from the same place as the light"

As long as we are in duality there will be choices between basically fear and love.
Without pain, violence, greed, hate etc there would be no need to bring out the higher aspects of our human nature.
Out of negative acts are born forgiveness, compassion etc.
The reason we still have evil is that it was fought with the same vibration that caused it---hate of war and hate of everything judged to be not good.
I would not be seen at an anti war rally but I might be seen at a peace rally said Mother Teresa.
Seems a slight difference in linguistics but the end result is quite different.

Chris

Dorjezigzag
19th October 2012, 15:18
can we face the possibility that we are alone in a Dark Abyss and that it's up to us and only us to get ourselves out of this mess?

Great post Reaver you cut through the illusions and got some where near to the essence of the problem, I can feel the will resounding from your words.

Your post reminded me of this scene from the the film bridesmaids, OK this is hollywood emotional manipulation but the sentiment has some truth; perhaps her chosen career path would not be popular with Avalonians though!

best line
"you're your problem Annie, and you are also your solution!"
lUbWIlgo4MU

Carmody
19th October 2012, 17:06
A few more and we could fill a Volkswagen.

Stop it. You're killing me.

~~~~~

We need both kinds. Country AND Western (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZfUnCK5qk).

GloriousPoetry
19th October 2012, 18:09
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.

By imagination I am talking about the spiritual body that becomes awakened when the inner highways of your being have been recognized and they spill out into this world through the eyes of imagination.

Save a place for when you manifest your creative act no one can tell you it was based on fact but rather it came from penetrating the fact to arrive where your place was first at through your own special knack.

Reaver
19th October 2012, 19:49
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.
This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.

See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their [insert adjective] mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.

The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

Understand that what has happened is that humans have gone through a seriously ****ed up process of dissociation and the result is an insane behavior and insane perceptions of the surrounding world and of themselves. Maya then becomes the resulting veil of ignorance and the fragmentation of human consciousness... but is DOES NOT mean that the world of matter is just some cosmic joke which will be fixed with beautiful thoughts.

Surely Imagination is a key factor, anyone can imagine beautiful societies... but it's a completely different matter altogether to bring these kind of societies about. Friction will take place because very few people are willing to cope with the painful process of Individuation.

Now is it that the world of matter is a mere illusion? or is it the we have a narrow understanding of it and the underlying factors which give birth to matter? or is it that the pain of existing in such a messed up place invites us to rationalize our problems and we delude ourselves by repeating: this is just an illusion, intent is gonna fix it all... well the hippies certainly had a lot of positive intent and that didn't sop the madness.

The current state of the world can be seen as a metaphorical nightmare. That doesn't mean that insanity is just a made up concept because when you look at it, it has a very long reach. By just imagining a better future, you won't bring about a better world. Such imagination has to be accompanied by a deconstructive process which will plunge you into the dark abyss. So the Maya can hopefully be broken by Knowledge (and no Knowledge is not just some mechanistic and boring BS, it can be very beautiful and creative), Hard Work and Dedication.

The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?

Beren
19th October 2012, 20:07
This post of yours has balls. I don`t know will I be censured or not but it`s the truth.
Why do you think all abandoned Jesus?
All that he fed, cured and freed from demons and else?

When he asked his disciples will even they would leave them- Peter replied that they don`t have a place where they could go (implying they would probably leave...)...

Simple as this: Be the truth. Always. It may be harsh for you. You may be beaten,killed,hungry...
But if you stay your ground-you change the world by small start. Later on seed will grow and become huge plant.

Whatever you do-do it from the heart and your soul.
And stand your ground!

Be not afraid.

DeDukshyn
19th October 2012, 20:28
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.
This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.

See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.

The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

Understand that what has happened is that humans have gone through a seriously ****ed up process of dissociation and the result is an insane behavior and insane perceptions of the surrounding world and of themselves. Maya then becomes the resulting veil of ignorance and the fragmentation of human consciousness... but is DOES NOT mean that the world of matter is just some cosmic joke which will be fixed with beautiful thoughts.

Surely Imagination is a key factor, anyone can imagine beautiful societies... but it's a completely different matter altogether to bring these kind of societies about. Friction will take place because very few people are willing to cope with the painful process of Individuation.

DISCLAIMER: I POSTED THIS BEFORE I EVEN FINISHED THE PRODUCT BY ACCIDENT, SO THIS IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS

Now is it that the world of matter is a mere illusion? or is it the we have a narrow understanding of it and the underlying factors which give birth to matter? or is it that the pain of existing in such a messed up place invites us to rationalize our problems and we delude ourselves by repeating: this is just an illusion, intent is gonna fix it all... well the hippies certainly had a lot of positive intent and that didn't sop the madness.

The current state of the world can be seen as a metaphorical nightmare. That doesn't mean that insanity is just a made up concept because when you look at it, it has a very long reach. By just imagining a better future, you won't bring about a better world. Such imagination has to be accompanied by a deconstructive process which will plunge you into the dark abyss. So the Maya can hopefully be broken by Knowledge (and no Knowledge is not just some mechanistic and boring BS, it can be very beautiful and creative), Hard Work and Dedication.

The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?

One also has to consider that although it seems appropriate to remove all "imagination" from "real", the two are actually completely bound to each other -- and not by spirit / magic / witchcraft or sorcery, but by simple logic of the progression of the creation of "reality".

Take a look at you computer you are reading this on. It came 100% from imagination -- the software, the language the software was written in , all the technology, behind it -- all HAD to be imagined before it could be real. Look at your house -- It was imagined long before it manifested in "reality". look at our effed up global economy -- both the economy, its successes and its failures, existed in someones imagination before it was "real"

Think of all our science that we base our reality around - without each scientific consideration being spurred by an imagination, we'd still be banging rocks together. All our media, all our laws, all our culture and religions -- all would be nowhere without the input of imagination to bring forth it's manifestation. [I]Nothing manifests without first being imagined.

One might say, "This tree! This tree was not imagined before it was manifested!" -- I would say the absence of evidence is no case the evidence of absence, prove there is no Being behind creation.

Our "Imagination" and our "reality" are not seperable in iny manner. Our reality does not exist as it does without imagination.


I am not arguing the tone of your original post, just that there is always more than one way of seeing things -- and often, all will be "right" from the person who has the perspective that they are seeing it from.

So in this sense I agree with both yourself, and the person you responded to, each from you own perspective. There is no common reality until humanity becomes a common (single) being.

My 2 cents ;)

DeDukshyn
19th October 2012, 20:56
Yogananda said " The darkness comes from the same place as the light"

As long as we are in duality there will be choices between basically fear and love.
Without pain, violence, greed, hate etc there would be no need to bring out the higher aspects of our human nature.
Out of negative acts are born forgiveness, compassion etc.
The reason we still have evil is that it was fought with the same vibration that caused it---hate of war and hate of everything judged to be not good.
I would not be seen at an anti war rally but I might be seen at a peace rally said Mother Teresa.
Seems a slight difference in linguistics but the end result is quite different.

Chris

There currently is only a very tiny shift required to change the world. The example you gave shows how subtle this shift need be.

If I ask for confirmation in my understanding, before responding, this shift is lent to. If I can use empathy to try to see the main point of where someone is coming from before telling them they are wrong, I have lent to this shift.

If I choose to percieve the growing expressions of love istead of the growing expression of fear (both are growing the same), then my subsequent choices and decision will be in reference to that love instead of that fear and I will automatically have a propensity to make decisions that will further that expression, rather than the expression of fear.

If I choose not to see things as representative of the labels they have been given, but rather choose not to see the labels and only respond as such, I have lent to this shift towards a better planet.

If I choose to not react or make selections from my emotions, I can no longer be manipulated through fear and I have lent to this shift.

If I choose not expess in any way, that which I hate or fear, I have done my part in not progpogating that hate or fear. No problems can be effectively solved with hate or fear. We have been programmed that this is the only way to get things done .. in reality, and my life is a huge testament and I'm sure many others as well, that moving forward through problems with love and empathy as in the long run, multitudes better than using hatred or fear.

Got bit carried away .. My 2 cents.

Reaver
19th October 2012, 21:26
One also has to consider that although it seems appropriate to remove all "imagination" from "real", the two are actually completely bound to each other -- and not by spirit / magic / witchcraft or sorcery, but by simple logic of the progression of the creation of "reality".
Did I ever imply that Imagination has no impact on the "real"? The point I'm trying to make is that some people use imagination as a means of escapism from the harsh reality we currently live in. Imagination is ONE of the key factors that will help us to get out of this mess (if ever) when channeled properly and when it is combined with other elements as to increase its effectiveness and practicality.

See it is one thing to imagine a system and then proceed to make comparisons with previous or existing systems. Then you'd have to go through a process of trial an error, make constant adjustments, you would have to use Reason to a degree... maybe you'd need to destroy it and begin anew, you'll come across obstacles like the current system and its monsters... but it's a disturbing matter when people think that all you need to change the world is the vision of a better world. The former is intelligent even if it crashes and burns because it seeks to refine itself by using a plethora of tools, the latter is delusional because it only pursues the feel good effect and rests on irrational faith.


There currently is only a very tiny shift required to change the world. The example you gave shows how subtle this shift need be.

What is the thought process you follow/implement to reach this conclusion? How can a "very tiny shift" revolutionize human awareness? what is this "subtle" change all about? is it meditation? is it reason? is it hope?

Chris Gilbert
19th October 2012, 21:50
Great points Reaver!!

If one actually researches and pursues older spiritual traditions, rather than New Age or channeling-based interpretations of such, it becomes readily apparent that trying to mentally force oneself to be positive 24/7 is NOT authentic growth, it's pure mental gymnastics.

In my own experience, growing in awareness via Taoist mediation practices and other avenues actually causes me to become MORE sensitive to the negative aspects of this world, but awareness of the non-linear helps to alleviate the suffering born of feeling trapped in a short-term, linear sense. As a result, physical and emotional pain can actually be worse than before, but at the same time one 'suffers' less.

Rather than resting in negative or positive thoughts, a better test would be if one can be conscious of both at once without getting attached to either.

Reaver
19th October 2012, 22:07
In my own experience, growing in awareness via Taoist mediation practices and other avenues actually causes me to become MORE sensitive to the negative aspects of this world, but awareness of the non-linear helps to alleviate the suffering born of feeling trapped in a short-term, linear sense. As a result, physical and emotional pain can actually be worse than before, but at the same time one 'suffers' less.
This is a result of a direct confrontation with those monsters. You could use a plethora of band-aids to treat symptoms and feel good for a while, but since the root causes are ignored, then the pain will start to grow. A drug abuser is not addicted to the drug itself, but to the pacifying or invigorating effects of the drug... but since this never tackles the root, then it will start to fail at some point so the drug abuser will need larger and larger doses... I guess the consequences are obvious to most at this point so I won't get into details.

In a similar vein, these mental gymnastics are a mere emotional drug which will fail eventually. So ironically anyone who uses mere band-aids is in for a constant pain,a void of sorts. The one who actually feels the true pain and faces the root causes will suffer, but that suffering is legitimate and when understood, it can be destroyed or transmuted. This is the Hero leaping into the Abyss, who will be reborn after going through a metaphorical and sometimes literal hell. In a sense you build immunity and since you understand the demon's anatomy, you'll be able to use counter measures which are rooted in a genuine understanding with their degree of Intuition and Reason.

DeDukshyn
19th October 2012, 22:16
One also has to consider that although it seems appropriate to remove all "imagination" from "real", the two are actually completely bound to each other -- and not by spirit / magic / witchcraft or sorcery, but by simple logic of the progression of the creation of "reality".
Did I ever imply that Imagination has no impact on the "real"? The point I'm trying to make is that some people use imagination as a means of escapism from the harsh reality we currently live in. Imagination is ONE of the key factors that will help us to get out of this mess (if ever) when channeled properly and when it is combined with other elements as to increase its effectiveness and practicality.

I was responding to ths specifically:


Posted by Gloriouspoetry
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.
This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.
-- what she stated was correct, everything in this world has been born of imagination -- nothing came into this world without it being imagined first - nothing. It's not that it is a "part" of it, but rather it is the sole beginning of everything -- exactly as this lady had posted. My point was actually to show that what you interpreted her as saying was specific and correct from your point of view -- and also what she said was also correct from the point of view she had -- I backed that up with an explanation that she did not. Did you think that you may just be misunderstanding her, or just not seeing it from her perspective and that it may be valid? This is where this comes in ...


If I ask for confirmation in my understanding, before responding, this shift is lent to. If I can use empathy to try to see the main point of where someone is coming from before telling them they are wrong, I have lent to this shift.

============================================

Back to this for a minute though ...

... some people use imagination as a means of escapism from the harsh reality we currently live in. Imagination is ONE of the key factors that will help us to get out of this mess (if ever) when channeled properly and when it is combined with other elements as to increase its effectiveness and practicality.
I fully agree with you here. This is very true. However, this is nothing new. There has always been and likely always will be a subset of people that "dream" more than they "act". I cannot change them, nor do I feel the need to, nor do I feel authorized to. I'm ok with letting them have their beliefs and imaginations, some of these go on to become great artists who spread a message through non-traditional means. I am no on to judge process that are outside of my understanding.

==========================================



See it is one thing to imagine a system and then proceed to make comparisons with previous or existing systems. Then you'd have to go through a process of trial an error, make constant adjustments, you would have to use Reason to a degree... maybe you'd need to destroy it and begin anew, you'll come across obstacles like the current system and its monsters... but it's a disturbing matter when people think that all you need to change the world is the vision of a better world. The former is intelligent even if it crashes and burns because it seeks to refine itself by using a plethora of tools, the latter is delusional because it only pursues the feel good effect and rests on irrational faith.

I see you point, but also consider all that you listed above starts as a mind process. Reason happens in the mind, comparison happens in the mind, adjustments need to be chosen by the mind. I may accuse people of trying to create "reality" from their minds if that keeps up ;) ;)

===========================================




There currently is only a very tiny shift required to change the world. The example you gave shows how subtle this shift need be.


What is the thought process you follow/implement to reach this conclusion? How can a "very tiny shift" revolutionize human awareness? what is this "subtle" change all about? is it meditation? is it reason? is it hope?

I sense sarcasm ;) ... but If you really want to know I can teach you a little of how to come to these conclusions and why they work -- the key is communication because like imagination, communication is also a creator of our "reality". It is actually simple, but our minds have weird blockages that can block the most logical of things, I don't know how or why, but I do know when the blockages are cleared, a shift occurs and you can never go back to the old way of thinking ever again -- but this is good thing for most and is how I see that the world is indeed changing from the inside out.

If you are not 100% interested I don't want to waste my or your time.

My 2 cents ;)

danimyl
19th October 2012, 22:29
Reaver! Now here is someone who is ready to hear. Right, right, and right, I say in regard to this post. Take a moment my friend and be available in your heart. Your feelings are shared by many.


The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?

The difference now is that this did not come from the human mind (http://wp.newmessage.org/the-new-message-on-religion/):


when you look about, either at home or in foreign lands, you will find there is a great poverty, a great poverty in that people’s lives are not demonstrating this Presence and the power of this Knowledge. The look of disappointment and dissatisfaction, the sense of regret in the older people, the sense of hopelessness and discouragement in the young [are] evidence that this Power and this Presence are not being experienced. Religion has become now a yoke and a harness for people, requiring them to believe along certain prescribed lines of thought and to behave along certain prescribed lines of behavior. But this is far from the essence of what religion is really for.

I hope you'll take a moment with it.

Reaver
19th October 2012, 22:42
-- what she stated was correct, everything in this world has been born of imagination -- nothing came into this world without it being imagined first - nothing. It's not that it is a "part" of it, but rather it is the sole beginning of everything -- exactly as this lady had posted. My point was actually to show that what you interpreted her as saying was specific and correct from your point of view -- and also what she said was also correct from the point of view she had -- I backed that up with an explanation that she did not. Did you think that you may just be misunderstanding her, or just not seeing it from her perspective and that it may be valid? This is where this comes in ...
$200 and my arrogance say I'm spot on in my judgement. Still... I'll concede there's room for me to be wrong. The again we'll have to wait for a reply of hers which goes more in depth.


I fully agree with you here. This is very true. However, this is nothing new. There has always been and likely always will be a subset of people that "dream" more than they "act". I cannot change them, nor do I feel the need to, nor do I feel authorised to. I'm ok with letting them have their beliefs and imaginations, some of these go on to become great artists who spread a message through non-traditional means. I am no on to judge process that are outside of my understanding.

See... this degree of tolerance can go both ways. One has to take a closer look at it. If you tolerate such fantasies from people who are religious, then don't be surprised when you see Holy Wars or insane rites of passage. If people within the alternative media take a stance of "fantasize all day" don't be surprised to see the Orwellian Paradigm getting stronger. Now I'm not just talking about the kind of action that is taken to the streets to raze everything to the ground... rather I'm talking about a creative input, something which is capable of countering the Leviathan to some degree. From a poem to a scientific discovery. Now I get that such process can take quite a while, I mean to find out some medium of expression that you are comfortable with... but there are some people who have been stuck for years and years telling themselves that "all is as it should be"... Those kind of people need a kick in their ass, not positive reinforcement. Then again some are lost cases.

And I'm not saying that you should go around pounding people with a war hammer, rather I'm talking about an attitude which truly challenges them to become more, sometimes you have to get under people's skin in very non political correct way.


I see you point, but also consider all that you listed above starts as a mind process. Reason happens in the mind, comparison happens in the mind, adjustments need to be choosen by the mind. I may accuse people of trying to create "reality" from their minds if that keeps up
Yeah so? I like to think I'm not that stupid, so yeah of course I understand there's a large degree of mental activity involved in those and that they have their root in Imagination. The main point I was trying to make is that one of those expressions lead to delusions and denial while the other leads to some sort of evolution by confronting and accepting reality in all its grandiosity and monstrosity.


I sense sarcasm
Not at all. I was being dead serious.

norman
19th October 2012, 23:12
Not at all. I was being dead serious.





Reaver, I'm so glad to see you are actually getting your rubber on the road these days.

Watch out for small children around the blind bends.....:) ... oh, and maybe a Volkswagen with the wheels off.

modwiz
19th October 2012, 23:38
Hey, Reaver. Feeling the love yet? 9eagle9 skyped this to me:


You may let Reaver know that I practically wet my pants reading his post

I could have sent this to you in a PM, but there may be a handful of people glad to hear a peep(ee) out her.
:cheer2:

DeDukshyn
19th October 2012, 23:43
$200 and my arrogance say I'm spot on in my judgement.

It matters not, you made an assumption without knowing and projected it on someone. Just because it may correlate to a similar answer does not mean you "knew". Eventually a million monkeys in eternity will type Shakespeare (well it's not true but you know the saying).

All besides the point though, and not worth wasting more keystrokes on ...

And this brings me straight back to communication again and the true problems on earth - lazy people with imaginations is such a small problem in the grand scheme, well, from my pov. But again, I'm not disagreeing with your overall point. I do agree it is a bit of an a issue. I think of Avalon as being a bit authentically spiritually anemic as well, but I digress.

So, please don't get me wrong about my intent - I agree with your OP and I am picking on small things with you with purpose (something others don't see) -- I don't really mean any of it - it is just demonstration to reveal a larger picture that I hope others can relate with and bring further discussion. This will go a bit off topic but just to enlarge the picture for bigger discussion.



Problem on earth is that things look dire, and humanity is under the "control" of an elite that appears to only have their own interests at heart with choices and decisions.

So, the traditional way of dealing with a scenario like this has always been to attempt to remove the offending parties from power with force. Well, there have been many grand kingdoms that have fallen due directly to this process over thousands of years ... many, many, many times, but the overall problem never seems to leave. But this time it will work! Right? After-all if I fight hard enough .... maybe we never fought hard enough previously? Maybe a billion more people need to die fighting? I guess that is better than a billion dying without fighting, but if we fight - we will lose. They want us to fight to justify their attack on us. As soon as we attack them -- boom there's a fight and we lose. This has been the case for thousands and thousands of years.

If traditional fighting works, why isn't it working? Could it be that we are wrong? Could it be that "fighting" the elite is not really the answer?

Let's assume we do fight and for some strange reason against all odds and stats it works this time, and we mange to kill off the current elite. How many years do you think it will be before they establish their control again? There's a line up of people behind every one of those bastards ready and willing to take their place and even if we get all the current ones - more will be born. Each time they have to fight us they get better at it. You see, if we take this approach we aren't thinking about the long term, because we will end up in the same situation again very quickly. Taking them out, killing them, hating, fighting, etc. is the wrong problem to try to solve. The world's problems never have and never will be solved this way.

So I see many many people shouting about how come we aren't fighting!??! and .. If we aren't fighting we must be losing! and .. all this is just ploy to keep the masses divided and fighting amongst ourselves while they get their jobs done. If anyone has a good "fighting" plan they think is foolproof, let us see it please.



So how can this world be fixed? From the inside out through subtle individual shifts in perception. It is our personal responsibility -- one cannot force change in others. Why these shifts? To rid the structure in which their control is implemented through on an individual level.

Their control structure exists inside of our minds -- not in any external system we can dismantle (they'll build a new, better one even if we do - time means nothing to them) -- this is important, and is the reason why outright fighting never has and never will work. This control structure is made from two things "fear" and "reason" -- the two elements that are used by the reactionary mental program often called "ego" (not to be confused with the psychiatric term which is a little different) to implement in your mind the selections in life that they want you to make. Let's look at big Pharma -- fear the disease, reason to yourself that if you take lot's of their drugs you will have better health. This is the only method they need to employ for everything.

Fear WW3? Awesome, do what I say and together we will avert it. Fear a world run by a single "elite" government of ultimate control? Is that the biggest fear? Let me tell you there is a plan in the works that is their solution for you -- and you will not know it is them, and you will readily accept it. Why? because the fear of the alternative was too horrible to bear and they made you select. Little did you know that both available selections that you "reasoned" with your fear was theirs. This is their process and you cannot win it if you play this game. They will just keep planning bigger atrocities and offering you a better way as someone else, ad infinitum.

We must stop playing this game! It is the only way due to the mechanism of their control being within our own minds. It is encoded culturally and passed from generation to generation, institution to institution, and seems "normal" to us because there is a certain logic behind it. But that apparent logic is not even really logic, but a twisted type of logic that is actually driven by emotional response.

The key to removing this "program" from our minds is within this subtle shift of perception I was referring to previously. Is any of this starting to make sense? There's a lot more to cover but that is the underlying principle - I should give more detailed examples perhaps ... I need to take a break ... ;)




¤=[Post Update]=¤

Hey Modwiz ... So 9Eagle is wet for Reaver? Is that what you said? ;) ;) ;) <snicker, snicker>

I know you guys are rooting against me ;), but that is just because you don't understand me -- perfectly fine. I'm not in a fight or debate with Reaver anyway, although to some it may see so. ;)

Say hi to her for me ;)

modwiz
19th October 2012, 23:54
[/COLOR]Hey Modwiz ... So 9Eagle is wet for Reaver? Is that what you said? ;) ;) ;) <snicker, snicker>

I know you guys are rooting against me ;), but that is just because you don't understand me -- perfectly fine. I'm not in a fight or debate with Reaver anyway, although to some it may see so. ;)

Say hi to her for me ;)

Will do. BTW,she said almost wet herself. Almost doesn't count.

Rooting against you? C'mon, some demon in your head told you that. That phrase alone, 'rooting against me' would get you smeared with eagle feces if the eagle was still around. :p Of course, it would be for your own good. :thumb:

DeDukshyn
19th October 2012, 23:57
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol ;)

modwiz
20th October 2012, 00:21
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol ;)

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

DeDukshyn
20th October 2012, 00:26
Ok, so I took a quick break, I think I have ADD or somethign and can't keep things for long ...

Anyways, so based on what I wrote in the previous post, I think the "fight" has to be brought to the masses -- we need to work with them. Why? Because without them the "elite's" funding and power do not exist. If we remove the control over the masses from the equation -- that is goal. Remember it is still the same goal that we had when we wanted to fight or try to remove them from power, but while we are all programmed to believe that that method is the only solution, it has never properly worked in all history, temporarily at best, but because the actual control structure is inside our minds, all they have to do is activate that at a later time.

The solution I am implementing is to give people tools to break down this mechanism inside their minds, so that the can learn to alleviate within their minds the two main mechanisms of control -- Fear and Reasons. Why am I doing this? Because I have been studying this problem for 15 years, my occupation is problem solving and implementing solutions -- I get paid fairly well for the skill I have, I have examined all the possibilities, I have examined carefully this whole mechanism and how it works, and it is of my firm opinion that only a shift in perception is required to reveal this mechanism and free people from doing the elite's bidding. This is integral to the solution in that without it -- there will never be a solution other than those implemented by the elite themselves to satisfy you of a larger fear, or at best, their ways will return because we are their "enablers".

I used shop with a fear of spending too much money. No I shop completely regardless of how much I spend. No more fear of poverty -- that is a control mechanism of theirs. I now buyh almost exclusively local and/or organic foods and ya, it does cost more. But guess what? The food is higher quality with more nutrients and my family will eat less -- I have already noticed this. My fear was mostly unfounded.

I used to fear sickness. I spent a lot of money on supplements and would go to the doctor whenever I got a cold / flu etc. Now, I eat decently, take a multi and a couple other things, and when I get cold or flu -- no drugs at all. No flu shots.

So after I alleviated some of my fears, I ...

-Don't buy GMOs if I can help it.
-Don't buy foods saturated in big Chemical concoctions.
-Don't buy drugs unless I REALLY need it to live / remedy

Just these three small choices -- all previous profits to the fund the "elite" programs like Monsanto -- I no longer contribute to. The funny thing is I did this quite a long time ago -- before I even started hearing about the horror stories of Monsanto. So why did I make these changes.? They happened naturally and automatically after I started "choosing" with love, instead of 'reacting" with fear. I decided I loved myself and my body enough that I wanted to make these choices.

Now many people WANT to make these choice but do not -- those people still are driven by fear .. it obvious. Fear is the paralyzing force that prevents you from making a proper choice, and it must be eliminated from the place it was never supposed to be (in the forefront of our minds for selection basing -- it is valid as an occasional personal survival tool only)

I have posted in a few places the difference between a choice and a decision -- this distinction is important because you can look at what you are selecting and determine if it is a choice in love or a decision in fear - so subtle a difference, most would write off the whole concept and many do, but so profound the implications of this tiny shift in perception, it alone can make the difference between being controlled or having true freedom ...





The distinction between a "choice" and a "decision" and how to break the control mechanism implanted into our minds and manipulated by the "elite" ...

CHOICE: To select after consideration
DECISION: To select based on a consideration

such a tiny subtle difference with such grand implications.

A - "Choose .... "

A - "Why did you choose that?"
B - "I chose that because .... <insert reason here> "

A - "So based on that consideration you selected .... <insert selection>?"
B - "Yes that was my choice"

A - "Look at the definitions again -- that was a decision based on a reason was it not? Not a choice."
B - "I guess it was, Ok this time I'll choose ... I choose <insert selection>"

A - "Why did you choose that?"
B - "I chose that because .. oh wait ... you got me, it's not a choice if I use a 'because', is it?"

A - "Exactly! A choice is a selection not based on any consideration, but merely a selection with all considerations in mind, but the choice is made from what you love and what you really want, often despite all the considerations"
B - "So if I make selections based on the considerations, then I am merely being a pawn to pre-established 'Reasons' that may not even be my own?"

A - "Yes, that is correct, you cannot have true freedom while all your selections are tied to pre-existing reasons, in that state you exist as a follower of 'reason' and can be easily manipulated. All one has to do is convince you of a reason via any method (fear, lies, spins, 'statistics', religion, media, social pressure, etc), and they can control how you select. This is the current state of the relationship between the Earth's 'elite' and the working class."


Be Un-Reasonable! Shift as much of your selection making away from being "decisions" and toward being genuine "choices". 99% of the people on earth are fooled into believing they are making choices with their 'free will'. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is in part due to the lost distinction between what is a "Choice" and what is a "Decision" -- most people would not have that distinction, and lost with that distinction is their true freedom of "Choice"

Become unpredictable and unreasonable, besides, who needs the stress? All is Well! Choose well! Whatever you choose will be far grander than the selections your are forced into settling on to alleviate the fear that drives "reasons". I promise you this, just think about it for a minute ... As small children we all still knew how to "choose", until that is, we were taught to select by "reason" only.

DeDukshyn
20th October 2012, 00:40
As I said, this is off topic and I am not arguing that people aren't inherently "lazy" -- always has been and always will be.

On the upside -- this perceived problem of "imagination" is actually getting better. Despite what we see in the media, despite our better weapons, despite our higher populations, there are less people dying in wars and conflicts than in almost any other period in history. This is 100% true - check stats if you don't believe me.

And this is just another example of how they control you and us. Via media, we are fearing more and more, but actually, in reality the world is getting better and better. Less people are dying in conflict all the time, crime is going DOWN? Don't believe me? Then don't trust me but do yourself a favour and check stats.

Now why would they be reporting that the world is getting worse when people (the masses) are actually getting better? Any guesses? Maybe to trigger that fear in your mind to make you react.

We must be careful what we react to and how we react ... they want us to play their game ... because they know if we do, they cannot lose ...

I f we employ within ourselves and share with our brothers and sisters all the techniques for removing that program mechanism of action from our (the masses) minds, then the elite have no hope in hell and the problem is permanently solved.

I ain't into temporary solutions or solutions that don't work. So you will never see me "fighting" (well, I don't believe in "never" so "unlikely" is the best word ... ) except to share this wisdom that alleviates us from their control.

Sometimes the choices we will have/want to make will be unorthodox ... so be it. Do we want a solution or a fight we can't win?

My 2 cents.

As I said, off topic, but I wanted to share with you what I said I would. There are lots more of considerations, lots of details, I hope I was clear enough with what I intended to get out. I didn't get much into the communication aspect .. maybe a bit later .. need another break ... ;) ;)

Arrowwind
20th October 2012, 01:08
I have not had time to read this total thread... but I 'm just gonna risk saying that there is no such thing as Inauthenic spirituality.
All people are attracted to and working at a level that they are needing learning on... there is no exception. It is a spontaneous occurance of events that brings us to exactly where we need to be. If it appears inauthenic to someone it is only because they have forgotten what it is like to be in that position and at that level of learning, dealing with whatever false notions of reality are running them.

Even if someone appears to be "inauthenic", trying too hard, wearing a mask of being what is not inside, pretending to be other than what they are, trying to be something else, trying to live in joy instead of the pain they have inside, that inauthenticy is truely authenic for the conflicts and struggles that they are dealing with in the moment. They must be allowed to play out their dramas till they can see themselves for their truths and authenically grow.

Frankley, I think that there are some very highly evolved folks in the "alternative" seen, be it alternative energy, alternative health, alternative foods, as well as the political scene, the Christian scene, the Muslim scene, the Sufi scene, the University scene, the corporate scene, the artists scene, the conventional medical scene, as well as the conspiratory scene. any scene you want to consider there are good and spiritually evolving people learning and doing exactly what they need to be doing to get to the next stop of their evolution.

DeDukshyn
20th October 2012, 04:25
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol ;)

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

hmmm ... maybe poor choice of words then, I think to get across more closely what I meant ... oh well. sht happens! It was still in ballpark though so your post is still well valid ;) ;) <ducks, and looks out for eagle poo> ;)

Finefeather
20th October 2012, 15:46
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.
This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.

See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their [insert adjective] mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.

The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

Understand that what has happened is that humans have gone through a seriously ****ed up process of dissociation and the result is an insane behavior and insane perceptions of the surrounding world and of themselves. Maya then becomes the resulting veil of ignorance and the fragmentation of human consciousness... but is DOES NOT mean that the world of matter is just some cosmic joke which will be fixed with beautiful thoughts.

Surely Imagination is a key factor, anyone can imagine beautiful societies... but it's a completely different matter altogether to bring these kind of societies about. Friction will take place because very few people are willing to cope with the painful process of Individuation.

DISCLAIMER: I POSTED THIS BEFORE I EVEN FINISHED THE PRODUCT BY ACCIDENT, SO THIS IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS

Now is it that the world of matter is a mere illusion? or is it the we have a narrow understanding of it and the underlying factors which give birth to matter? or is it that the pain of existing in such a messed up place invites us to rationalize our problems and we delude ourselves by repeating: this is just an illusion, intent is gonna fix it all... well the hippies certainly had a lot of positive intent and that didn't sop the madness.

The current state of the world can be seen as a metaphorical nightmare. That doesn't mean that insanity is just a made up concept because when you look at it, it has a very long reach. By just imagining a better future, you won't bring about a better world. Such imagination has to be accompanied by a deconstructive process which will plunge you into the dark abyss. So the Maya can hopefully be broken by Knowledge (and no Knowledge is not just some mechanistic and boring BS, it can be very beautiful and creative), Hard Work and Dedication.

The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?
Well I must say, Reaver, that you have an interesting...and advanced mind for your age...I say that because you are a lot younger than I, and when I was your age my mind was ONLY fixed on wine, women and song :) ...but as you can see from my age I have grown up a bit.
It is not my intention to criticize you, merely to offer you some information for your consideration. With such a great attitude I feel it is important that you get as many other ideas as possible so you can straighten out your thinking...because I think you have a lot to offer the world and that is all that matters. So please read this with that in mind...and know, that I give this to you with love.

First...to Gloriouspoetry...Imagination is not the same as illusion. Imagination is the beginning of a creative process, albeit somewhat misdirected most of the time...illusion is state of mind which comes from a lack of knowledge.

I think we are misunderstanding the true nature of illusion. I agree with Reaver that most people who use this word have not got the slightest idea of the reality behind it...for it hides many subtle truths. In stating that people have a narrow understanding of this word may be partially correct at times, but, we might just be surprised to learn how little we know about illusion when we meet up with someone out there who know it's real meaning. This is a vast subject and there is more to 'illusion' than meets the eye :)

The 'reality' of the matter is that the word illusion is often used where it does not strictly apply and we should not lump all mental deceptive states under one name.
The word 'illusion', when used in occult terms, is somewhat misunderstood in the English language because it is used as a translation of the word Maya...now if you look at Wiki:

Maya or Māyā (Sanskrit माया māyāa[›]), in Indian religions, has multiple meanings, usually quoted as "illusion", centered on the fact that we do not experience the environment itself but rather a projection of it, created by us. Māyā is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe. For some mystics, this manifestation is real.[1] Each person, each physical object, from the perspective of eternity, is like a brief, disturbed drop of water from an unbounded ocean. The goal of enlightenment is to understand this—more precisely, to experience this: to see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy. The distinction between consciousness and physical matter, between mind and body (refer bodymind), is the result of an unenlightened perspective.
Now this definition is IMO only partially correct because it relates Maya to Illusion but leaves out the 3rd factor which is Glamor. It does not distinguish between Maya and Illusion and therefore is confusing and leads to a wrong idea of the esoteric and occult truths. Illusion and Maya are NOT actually the same thing, from an occult point of view, and are not strictly synonymous...AND...we also need to include Glamor into the equation because it completes the picture of deceptions.

To know the true nature of 'illusion' we need to place it in it's hierarchical position under another word, and break that down into 3 because everything that exists has 3 components at the top level - this is based on the trinity of all that exists, everything has 3 levels or realms of existence and they perform different functions, although as far as our little minds are concerned they seem to emanate from the same source, which is technically correct. These 3 components or aspects can be seen as Physical(quality of force), Emotional(astral) and Mental(mind attitude). So the best word I have come up with in my 40 or so years of service on this planet is DECEPTION. This IMO is appropriate because we can be deceived in the full spectrum of ways...like...by objects around us, by other people, and by ourselves...(note the correlation of physical, emotional and mental). In a nutshell it means we can be deceived by anything and everyone. In each case they can be seen as distortions of the real truth, owing to the limitations of the human consciousness.
So when someone talks of illusion he/she might just be right on track and we may be the ones who fails to comprehend this complex deception.

So we should see DECEPTION in 3 forms, Maya...Glamor...and Illusion (note the correlation of physical, emotional and mental). They are all very 'real' :) We should also keep in mind that there are no walls around these concepts and they often bleed into and out of each other...So very briefly, because this is a huge subject, we have:

Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.

Glamor (Emotional), is astral in character, and is far more potent at this time than illusion, which we will see next, owing to the enormous majority of people who function astrally/emotionally always. This is a condition where we see others as better than ourselves. We see this clearly in situations where people spend enormous amounts of time and energy and money to attempt to make themselves look better than others, like cosmetics and hairdos and plastic surgery etc etc. These people are delusional and we know that delusion is a false belief about oneself or other people that persists despite its being at variance with the facts in many cases. This is the self deceit of glamor and is, today, one of the biggest tools of the powers who wish to 'enslave us'. Glamor is an emotional deception.

Illusion (Mental), is primarily of a mental nature and is characteristic of the attitude of mind of those people who are more intellectual than emotional...They read a lot, study a lot, yet lack the true inner knowledge. They believe things despite them been known to be incorrect. We see this in false religion and cults and false ideology, and no amount of proof seems to satisfy these people...they are mentally alluded, and we know that illusion is a false impression. These people deceive themselves and are deceived by others simply because they lack real inner knowledge and believe they are making the right choice...despite the facts. We also see illusion in the classic mirage story where people believe they see the water in the distance and if they were more wise they would know it to be an illusion. Illusion is a mental deceptions.

Each of these deceptions we have lumped under the one name of illusion and it is important that we see the divisions because we can best treat or help a brother in need when we know where to start.

The most important thing to realize is that if you or anyone you know is living a life of deception in the form of Maya or Glamor or Illusion then you should ask yourself who is doing the deception?...are you being deceived by others?...or are you the deceiver?

Love to all
Ray

Reaver
20th October 2012, 16:30
Now this definition is IMO only partially correct because it relates Maya to Illusion but leaves out the 3rd factor which is Glamor. It does not distinguish between Maya and Illusion and therefore is confusing and leads to a wrong idea of the esoteric and occult truths. Illusion and Maya are NOT actually the same thing, from an occult point of view, and are not strictly synonymous...AND...we also need to include Glamor into the equation because it completes the picture of deceptions.
Thanks for the heads up :thumb:



Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.
OK I see the sense behind this for the most part, but I would consider the human body to be part of the Human Totality until the body itself dies. After all it's one of your vehicles of expression and can be used as a tool for refinement. Now of course there is the issue of over-identification with the body and that's something you see day in and day out in modern society and to an extent is being reinforced by the dogmas of science. When the physical is elevated to the ultimate reality, then we start to have serious problems.



The most important thing to realize is that if you or anyone you know is living a life of deception in the form of Maya or Glamor or Illusion then you should ask yourself who is doing the deception?...are you being deceived by others?...or are you the deceiver?

In works both ways. We are born into a world where social conditioning is rampant and after our psyche is dissociated, the powers in charge can rely on humanity's willingness to replicate the process. Ultimately it's up to the individual to break the spell, just as in the Hero's Journey, the Individual in question may have mentors and helpers, but ultimately he/she is the one who has to jump into hell itself and recover useful artifacts.

Finefeather
20th October 2012, 18:30
Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.
OK I see the sense behind this for the most part, but I would consider the human body to be part of the Human Totality until the body itself dies. After all it's one of your vehicles of expression and can be used as a tool for refinement. Now of course there is the issue of over-identification with the body and that's something you see day in and day out in modern society and to an extent is being reinforced by the dogmas of science. When the physical is elevated to the ultimate reality, then we start to have serious problems.

It is not correct to say that the body is a vehicle of expression because it does not have it's own mind, so it cannot express itself. It would be a little like saying that the clothing you wear has expression. Every organ and cell of the body is controlled by the subconscious mind. Every gesture or movement you make is made by the conscious mind. If you have ever witnessed a person dying you will notice that as they let out the last breath the body, especially the facial features change to such an extent that you can hardly recognise the person because all expression in the face is gone. This varies in accordance with the 'control' the lower mind had on it's vehicle. The only part the body plays is it gives an outward appearance to your identity and displays the expression of the state of our thinking. This is why, as I said the body is not considered a principle of the Spiritual Being, the real you.
When you talk about the "issues of over-identification...etc" we can immediately see the workings of the self deception of the lower mind...what we know as Maya...when we are more enlightened, with the acquisition of true knowledge this Maya is overcome and the true Spiritual Being can get on with it's higher enlightened expression on earth, using the body as a dimensional tool. This is our goal in life...to rid ourselves of lower mind control and allow the Spirit to express.

Love to you
Ray

Reaver
20th October 2012, 19:21
It is not correct to say that the body is a vehicle of expression because it does not have it's own mind, so it cannot express itself. It would be a little like saying that the clothing you wear has expression. Every organ and cell of the body is controlled by the subconscious mind. Every gesture or movement you make is made by the conscious mind. If you have ever witnessed a person dying you will notice that as they let out the last breath the body, especially the facial features change to such an extent that you can hardly recognise the person because all expression in the face is gone. This varies in accordance with the 'control' the lower mind had on it's vehicle. The only part the body plays is it gives an outward appearance to your identity and displays the expression of the state of our thinking. This is why, as I said the body is not considered a principle of the Spiritual Being, the real you.
I never stated that the body can express itself as a mere mechanical thing as many scientists would have you believe. Now I get that there are underlying principles or impulses which are the invisible causes behind the movement of the body and once you take out these underlying causes you are left with a vegetable or a corpse.

Maybe a different wording is needed. Perhaps "The body is a medium through which the human psyche can express itself" would be more appropriate. If you are trying to express ideas and feelings within your psyche and communicate them to the world, then "body action" is needed. A musician wouldn't be able to transmit the Symphonies within his Imagination without using his body to actually write down or play those notes on a musical instrument.

Finefeather
20th October 2012, 21:33
Maybe a different wording is needed. Perhaps "The body is a medium through which the human psyche can express itself" would be more appropriate.
Yes that sounds like a good way to 'express' it :)


If you are trying to express ideas and feelings within your psyche and communicate them to the world, then "body action" is needed. A musician wouldn't be able to transmit the Symphonies within his Imagination without using his body to actually write down or play those notes on a musical instrument.
Well of course "body action" is needed, but it still does not do the expressing...the body cannot walk by itself or talk by itself it requires the life within. When you play baseball you need a bat and that does not mean the bat is expressing itself other than performing it's own individual qualities like...is it a good bat or a bad bat. So as you have said these are mediums or tools or the means to an end. They are not causes, they perform the intentions and actions of the incarnated life, which drives them and does the expressing.
Love to you
Ray

Sammy
21st October 2012, 10:56
Weird - it seems this post got "duplicated"... the next version is edited and far better.

Sammy
21st October 2012, 11:11
Ok, so I took a quick break, I think I have ADD or something and can't keep things for long ...

Anyways, so based on what I wrote in the previous post, I think the "fight" has to be brought to the masses -- we need to work with them. Why? Because without them the "elite's" funding and power do not exist. If we remove the control over the masses from the equation -- that is goal. Remember it is still the same goal that we had when we wanted to fight or try to remove them from power, but while we are all programmed to believe that that method is the only solution, it has never properly worked in all history, temporarily at best, but because the actual control structure is inside our minds, all they have to do is activate that at a later time.

The solution I am implementing is to give people tools to break down this mechanism inside their minds, so that the can learn to alleviate within their minds the two main mechanisms of control -- Fear and Reasons. Why am I doing this? Because I have been studying this problem for 15 years, my occupation is problem solving and implementing solutions -- I get paid fairly well for the skill I have, I have examined all the possibilities, I have examined carefully this whole mechanism and how it works, and it is of my firm opinion that only a shift in perception is required to reveal this mechanism and free people from doing the elite's bidding. This is integral to the solution in that without it -- there will never be a solution other than those implemented by the elite themselves to satisfy you of a larger fear, or at best, their ways will return because we are their "enablers".

.................................................. ...................

Become unpredictable and unreasonable, besides, who needs the stress? All is Well! Choose well! Whatever you choose will be far grander than the selections your are forced into settling on to alleviate the fear that drives "reasons". I promise you this, just think about it for a minute ... As small children we all still knew how to "choose", until that is, we were taught to select by "reason" only.

Apologies... I wanted to quote the entire post as the entire post is fantastic (IMO) but I hit the magic 5,000 number (never did that before in a post!)...

What I did was I went back to the very first reason I created this entire realm of experience.

I wanted to "know" myself... to experience myself.

It was a wee bit hard to do since I am the all that is, but I was so freaking lonely. So out of my loneliness, I created these experiential realms and I created the experiential vehicles that would explore these realms for the purpose of sending the experiences back to me. Now understand all of these creations, the mini-mes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-Me

...and the realms are simply within me, but I figured that if I complicate the matter of evolving the realms at a slow and massively complex rate such that the mini-mes have a loooonngggg road to getting to a state where they can awaken as to who/what they really are (just me but a whole bunch of mes), that by the time one or more of them did start waking up, the massive complexity would make the entertainment quite fun (for me at least).

Then I started to see the problem. As several of the mini-mes started to wake up to the fact they were simply me stuck inside a trick I created for us (this realm within me and my mini-mes) they realized they could do whatever they wanted as they could not be destroyed because they were essentially copies of me. So they started blowing holes through the fabrics of the multi-verses. I started to see that my experience would be short lived and I wanted it to continue on for a long, long, long time. Thus I got that silly loneliness feeling again. Some of you know this as "Love."

So anyways, I realized (this is now justoneman writing) that at the core of all my decisions is my first choice which is a.) to think, speak, write or do whatever the "f" I want or b.) to act in a manner where I won't end up lonely... and then of course, to balance these two primary impulses that justoneman now knows were the two original energetic participants in the game of tight rope behind the all that is.

Funny, but it just occurred to me these two choices might be worth 1 cent each.

Anyways... what do I know anyways? I know the last thing I need to know and that's the key (IMO to gnosis which is a word very similar to "know sis" (as in sister) and for the illumed and nutty that might be reading my rant, they know her as The Goddess, the Primal Dragon).

Still, could this have been how it all started and thus, by knowing this can I consciously make the real, first level choice in each and every continuing now moment?

This is how I operate nowadays and I don't mind sharing my last secret with others.

Its good (and secondarily it is fun) to be a realized quantum being that chooses to be in right and positive relationship with all and I recommend it highly to everyone.

Enjoy the Day and Love to All, Chester

Sammy
21st October 2012, 11:36
Now of course there is the issue of over-identification with the body and that's something you see day in and day out in modern society and to an extent is being reinforced by the dogmas of science. When the physical is elevated to the ultimate reality, then we start to have serious problems.

The root of the entire problem (IMO) - Jeeez dude, I am really glad you joined Avalon. Quite a stirrer upper you are. Something I am glad to experience.



In works both ways. We are born into a world where social conditioning is rampant and after our psyche is dissociated, the powers in charge can rely on humanity's willingness to replicate the process. Ultimately it's up to the individual to break the spell, just as in the Hero's Journey, the Individual in question may have mentors and helpers, but ultimately he/she is the one who has to jump into hell itself and recover useful artifacts.

Bammo - nailed it.

write4change
21st October 2012, 11:45
I have not had time to read this total thread... but I 'm just gonna risk saying that there is no such thing as Inauthenic spirituality.
All people are attracted to and working at a level that they are needing learning on... there is no exception. It is a spontaneous occurance of events that brings us to exactly where we need to be. If it appears inauthenic to someone it is only because they have forgotten what it is like to be in that position and at that level of learning, dealing with whatever false notions of reality are running them.

Even if someone appears to be "inauthenic", trying too hard, wearing a mask of being what is not inside, pretending to be other than what they are, trying to be something else, trying to live in joy instead of the pain they have inside, that inauthenticy is truely authenic for the conflicts and struggles that they are dealing with in the moment. They must be allowed to play out their dramas till they can see themselves for their truths and authenically grow.

Frankley, I think that there are some very highly evolved folks in the "alternative" seen, be it alternative energy, alternative health, alternative foods, as well as the political scene, the Christian scene, the Muslim scene, the Sufi scene, the University scene, the corporate scene, the artists scene, the conventional medical scene, as well as the conspiratory scene. any scene you want to consider there are good and spiritually evolving people learning and doing exactly what they need to be doing to get to the next stop of their evolution.

I am not a biblical literalist in any form. But I studied the Torah for years and it where I met my husband. It was the Jewish traditon of where ten are gathered there are eleven opinions that appealed to us both. The reformed Torah has the first half of the page with the text and the bottom half of the page with the basic arguments over its meaning thru the centuries.

One of the insights I gleaned from this that so impressed me was that during the Exodus where god was supposedly everything to the people with a daily pillar of fire and flame at night fed daily with manna---that they go to debauchery within a few days of missing the leader Moses presence and when he comes back--the people say the voice of god thunders in their ears and they ask Moses to ask god to never speak to them again and he obliges. And thus, from then on god has had an interpreter.

The implications of all that have rolled around my mind for over 25 years.

Sammy
21st October 2012, 12:09
It is not correct to say that the body is a vehicle of expression because it does not have it's own mind, so it cannot express itself. It would be a little like saying that the clothing you wear has expression. Every organ and cell of the body is controlled by the subconscious mind. Every gesture or movement you make is made by the conscious mind. If you have ever witnessed a person dying you will notice that as they let out the last breath the body, especially the facial features change to such an extent that you can hardly recognise the person because all expression in the face is gone. This varies in accordance with the 'control' the lower mind had on it's vehicle. The only part the body plays is it gives an outward appearance to your identity and displays the expression of the state of our thinking. This is why, as I said the body is not considered a principle of the Spiritual Being, the real you.
I never stated that the body can express itself as a mere mechanical thing as many scientists would have you believe. Now I get that there are underlying principles or impulses which are the invisible causes behind the movement of the body and once you take out these underlying causes you are left with a vegetable or a corpse.

Maybe a different wording is needed. Perhaps "The body is a medium through which the human psyche can express itself" would be more appropriate. If you are trying to express ideas and feelings within your psyche and communicate them to the world, then "body action" is needed. A musician wouldn't be able to transmit the Symphonies within his Imagination without using his body to actually write down or play those notes on a musical instrument.

As Peter Gabriel says, "It (the body) is the way we are tied in."

I find the body to be the border between the within and the without.

I appreciate my physical body. For example, and not that it is the most important thing, but sex where the body is involved is quite awesome and I enjoy that part of having a body immensely.

EDIT: Yes, write4change... I recommend direct experience which is available to anyone and is also a fundamental choice. Then you can begin conscious direct communication with the all that is. You may not like the dialogue but at least it is available to you and anyone who seeks it.
Cheers, Chester

Sammy
21st October 2012, 12:19
Ohhh and one last tid bit I would like to add. A woman can procreate all on her own. A man cannot procreate without a woman. So if anyone is worried about who is the superior species within the species, consider that fact. I am glad to know my place. Enjoy the Day, justone.

Reaver
21st October 2012, 17:11
The root of the entire problem (IMO) - Jeeez dude, I am really glad you joined Avalon. Quite a stirrer upper you are. Something I am glad to experience.
Well one of the main factors yes... the root? maybe one of the roots, I mean you could ask what factors can cause humans to become obsessed with the physical layer of existence and elevate it to the one and only reality. I guess one could come up with many ideas, from a massive psychological trauma to sheer ignorance.


Ohhh and one last tid bit I would like to add. A woman can procreate all on her own. A man cannot procreate without a woman. So if anyone is worried about who is the superior species within the species, consider that fact. I am glad to know my place. Enjoy the Day, justone.
Wrong. A woman may be the fertile ground which allows the child's body to develop and be nurtured, but without the male seed there is no procreation. So even if men could be wiped out of the planet and women were able to constantly replicate sperm by using science, you'd still have a male factor involved. Granted, men wouldn't be able to provide a fertile soil of their own... unless they could create artificial wombs, which may not be that far fetched... and still the feminine factor would be involved.

Sammy
21st October 2012, 23:29
Wrong. A woman may be the fertile ground which allows the child's body to develop and be nurtured, but without the male seed there is no procreation. So even if men could be wiped out of the planet and women were able to constantly replicate sperm by using science, you'd still have a male factor involved. Granted, men wouldn't be able to provide a fertile soil of their own... unless they could create artificial wombs, which may not be that far fetched... and still the feminine factor would be involved.

I have been presented examples of what is known as "immaculate conception" by more than one credible (to me) source. I cannot confirm if this possibility has actually occurred, but my sources have been reliable in other matters of similar nature. So in this specific case, I lean to my sources being accurate. I guess this means we both simply have an opinion and that it differs. I am old school about this. Anyways, great thread Bro. Chester

Arrowwind
21st October 2012, 23:45
[And thus, from then on god has had an interpreter.

The implications of all that have rolled around my mind for over 25 years.

And out of the mouths of babes, the lord my god speaks.

Kiforall
21st October 2012, 23:51
I would have thought the Woman took the seed of the Creator and that became Man.

Zoe x

Arrowwind
21st October 2012, 23:59
Actually it is a genetic deviation from the female genetic code paradigm though the action of genes upon an ovum that a female becomes a male at the time of conception. We have been lied to since the beginning... the beginning of this round anyway. Out of woman's code man is born through the alteration of that code from an outside force. A genetic modification so to speak. An ovum is a seed. A sperm is a living genetic code modification potential...

Reaver
22nd October 2012, 00:04
I have been presented examples of what is known as "immaculate conception" by more than one credible (to me) source. I cannot confirm if this possibility has actually occurred, but my sources have been reliable in other matters of similar nature. So in this specific case, I lean to my sources being accurate. I guess this means we both simply have an opinion and that it differs. I am old school about this. Anyways, great thread Bro. Chester
Care to share them?


Actually it is a genetic deviation from the female genetic code paradigm though the action of genes upon an ovum that a female becomes a male at the time of conception. We have been lied to since the beginning... the beginning of this round anyway. Out of woman's code man is born through the alteration of that code from an outside force. A genetic modification so to speak. An ovum is a seed. A sperm is a living genetic code modification potential...
Can you point towards works which elaborate on the idea? I suspect science can explain this, well at least to a degree that is.

Arrowwind
22nd October 2012, 00:09
Science clearly explains this. Look in any advanced University textbook regarding sex or human genetics.

Carmody
22nd October 2012, 01:31
I have not had time to read this total thread... but I 'm just gonna risk saying that there is no such thing as Inauthenic spirituality.
All people are attracted to and working at a level that they are needing learning on... there is no exception. It is a spontaneous occurance of events that brings us to exactly where we need to be. If it appears inauthenic to someone it is only because they have forgotten what it is like to be in that position and at that level of learning, dealing with whatever false notions of reality are running them.

Even if someone appears to be "inauthenic", trying too hard, wearing a mask of being what is not inside, pretending to be other than what they are, trying to be something else, trying to live in joy instead of the pain they have inside, that inauthenticy is truely authenic for the conflicts and struggles that they are dealing with in the moment. They must be allowed to play out their dramas till they can see themselves for their truths and authenically grow.

Frankley, I think that there are some very highly evolved folks in the "alternative" seen, be it alternative energy, alternative health, alternative foods, as well as the political scene, the Christian scene, the Muslim scene, the Sufi scene, the University scene, the corporate scene, the artists scene, the conventional medical scene, as well as the conspiratory scene. any scene you want to consider there are good and spiritually evolving people learning and doing exactly what they need to be doing to get to the next stop of their evolution.

I am not a biblical literalist in any form. But I studied the Torah for years and it where I met my husband. It was the Jewish traditon of where ten are gathered there are eleven opinions that appealed to us both. The reformed Torah has the first half of the page with the text and the bottom half of the page with the basic arguments over its meaning thru the centuries.

One of the insights I gleaned from this that so impressed me was that during the Exodus where god was supposedly everything to the people with a daily pillar of fire and flame at night fed daily with manna---that they go to debauchery within a few days of missing the leader Moses presence and when he comes back--the people say the voice of god thunders in their ears and they ask Moses to ask god to never speak to them again and he obliges. And thus, from then on god has had an interpreter.

The implications of all that have rolled around my mind for over 25 years.

Spoken to me by a friend who is a historian:

That the Egyptians whee INCREDIBLY meticulous record keepers, heck, they'd mention if their underwear was tight, where the sun was on that given day, and how many sheep joe-bob was herding.

And in those records....no such thing as the exodus. Not even a hint. Anywhere.

Flash
22nd October 2012, 05:09
I have not had time to read this total thread... but I 'm just gonna risk saying that there is no such thing as Inauthenic spirituality.
All people are attracted to and working at a level that they are needing learning on... there is no exception. It is a spontaneous occurance of events that brings us to exactly where we need to be. If it appears inauthenic to someone it is only because they have forgotten what it is like to be in that position and at that level of learning, dealing with whatever false notions of reality are running them.

Even if someone appears to be "inauthenic", trying too hard, wearing a mask of being what is not inside, pretending to be other than what they are, trying to be something else, trying to live in joy instead of the pain they have inside, that inauthenticy is truely authenic for the conflicts and struggles that they are dealing with in the moment. They must be allowed to play out their dramas till they can see themselves for their truths and authenically grow.

Frankley, I think that there are some very highly evolved folks in the "alternative" seen, be it alternative energy, alternative health, alternative foods, as well as the political scene, the Christian scene, the Muslim scene, the Sufi scene, the University scene, the corporate scene, the artists scene, the conventional medical scene, as well as the conspiratory scene. any scene you want to consider there are good and spiritually evolving people learning and doing exactly what they need to be doing to get to the next stop of their evolution.

I am not a biblical literalist in any form. But I studied the Torah for years and it where I met my husband. It was the Jewish traditon of where ten are gathered there are eleven opinions that appealed to us both. The reformed Torah has the first half of the page with the text and the bottom half of the page with the basic arguments over its meaning thru the centuries.

One of the insights I gleaned from this that so impressed me was that during the Exodus where god was supposedly everything to the people with a daily pillar of fire and flame at night fed daily with manna---that they go to debauchery within a few days of missing the leader Moses presence and when he comes back--the people say the voice of god thunders in their ears and they ask Moses to ask god to never speak to them again and he obliges. And thus, from then on god has had an interpreter.

The implications of all that have rolled around my mind for over 25 years.

Spoken to me by a friend who is a historian:

That the Egyptians whee INCREDIBLY meticulous record keepers, heck, they'd mention if their underwear was tight, where the sun was on that given day, and how many sheep joe-bob was herding.

And in those records....no such thing as the exodus. Not even a hint. Anywhere.

Are you telling us that this is the first recorded conning story to be able to justify power taking of a whole group of people, or justify land taking who knows, or that this is a created myth to justify the genetic "prefered sons of God" history and whatever that followed (or to hide true origins?).

Very interesting, I had heard about this non recorded exodus by Egyptians before, you confirm it.

Marin
22nd October 2012, 05:56
Actually it is a genetic deviation from the female genetic code paradigm though the action of genes upon an ovum that a female becomes a male at the time of conception. We have been lied to since the beginning... the beginning of this round anyway. Out of woman's code man is born through the alteration of that code from an outside force. A genetic modification so to speak. An ovum is a seed. A sperm is a living genetic code modification potential...

Can you point towards works which elaborate on the idea? I suspect science can explain this, well at least to a degree that is.

A few thoughts from Robert Morning Sky:

This audio highlights Robert Morning Sky's statement:
http://robertmorningsky.com/2013%20MAN%20OF%20FIRE.mp3


"In the ancient ways of the Semsiye, the oldest shamanic tradition - We are a species that is comprised of females and altered females."


"The Y chromosome developed from the X chromosome. The Y chromosome is an altered X chromosome. On the Science.mag website (see abstract below): Human sex chromosomes evolved from autosomes. The first event which marked the beginnings of X/Y differentiation occurred about 240-320 million years ago, shortly after the divergence of mammalian and avian lineage. Somewhere between 240- 320 million years ago the Y chromosome did not exist. If the Y chromosome is the defining aspect of a male then long, long ago the male did not exist."

His conclusion: "We human beings are a species initially genetically directed toward becoming females. Then, a change occurred and we became a species comprised of females and altered females."

Robert Morning Sky's website:
http://robertmorningsky.com/manoffire.html

Supporting Abstracts:

Science 29 October 1999:
Vol. 286 no. 5441 pp. 964-967
DOI: 10.1126/science.286.5441.964
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/286/5441/964.abstract?sid=32e7a60d-d160-4eb2-9417-044d5e7f296e
Abstract:
"Human sex chromosomes evolved from autosomes. Nineteen ancestral autosomal genes persist as differentiated homologs on the X and Y chromosomes. The ages of individual X-Y gene pairs (measured by nucleotide divergence) and the locations of their X members on the X chromosome were found to be highly correlated. Age decreased in stepwise fashion from the distal long arm to the distal short arm in at least four “evolutionary strata.” Human sex chromosome evolution was probably punctuated by at least four events, each suppressing X-Y recombination in one stratum, without disturbing gene order on the X chromosome. The first event, which marked the beginnings of X-Y differentiation, occurred about 240 to 320 million years ago, shortly after divergence of the mammalian and avian lineages."

And

http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/dever/sex_chrom_review.pdf
Abstract
"Sex chromosomes have a disproportionate influence on health and disease. Both the X and Y are atypical in gene content and activity, as a result of their unique evolutionary trajectory. The X and Y chromosomes originated in a pair of autosomes, and differentiated as the Y chromosome degenerated progressively. The Y contains few active genes and is composed largely of repetitive DNA sequences. Most Y genes have copies on the X from which they evolved; this includes even the sex-determining gene SRY as well as several genes required for spermatogenesis. The X contains a disproportionate number of genes that affect reproduction and brain function (or both). It is also subject to inactivation in females, so that females are mosaics composed of patches of tissue that express only the genes on either the maternally or the paternally derived X chromosome. Several widely expressed genes on the Y chromosome code for male-specific proteins that provoke an immune reaction in females; this HY antigen has a measurable effect on maternal-fetal incompatibility. Imprinted paternal X inactivation in rodent extraembryonic tissues would be expected to mitigate the effect of foreign paternal antigens; however, paternal inactivation seems not to occur in the human placenta."

Jenci
22nd October 2012, 11:07
You are scared of writing what you really feel and think so like an ostrich you'll bury your head in your ass and hide behind civility... you are so afraid of having to walk steep roads that you won't bother to study the works of people who had great ideas, you won't bother to challenge yourself and so you'll let someone else do it for you... you prefer your stupid camaraderie, you prefer to deny Judgement because that's bad according to your favourite alternative celebrities, you prefer your fake smiles and your pretty thoughts of compassion.

How can anyone who denies the harsh and ugly reality within themselves and out there call themselves authentic and spiritual? how can anyone who is afraid of becoming more be called authentic? I call these types delusional.

Of course some nebulous, painless and fluffy kind of spirituality is more popular with some people. To attempt the Hero's Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) towards Authenticity is too much to ask. We want unicorns to ride, not dragons to face.

We only want our hugs and our smile and our fluffy compassion... we want ascension, we want benevolent aliens, we want a massive change in consciousness.... but please dear "Source" don't allow us to stand alone in the cold cave of the world, don't give us sleepless nights where the awareness of a world that is and the awareness of that world that should've been clash within our fragile minds.

Dear "Source" give us our Placebo so that we can numb our pain and become Inauthentic expressions of ourselves, the pain is too much to bare, please give us our spiritual terms and send your legions of friendly ETs to make this nightmare stop.

But what if we are alone in this sector of the Universe, the Source has forgotten about its children and there's no alien army nor a cosmic wave that will save the day,? can we face the possibility that we are alone in a Dark Abyss and that it's up to us and only us to get ourselves out of this mess? can we face the possibility that we are far from being divine and that we are a bunch of broken humans who have to sweat and bleed to achieve divinity?


Hi Reaver

People only do what works and I have come to the conclusion that they will continue to do what works until it stops working for them. Only when it stops working will they have the courage and the self-honesty to really examine what underlies all their behaviour.

For many, life is tough enough just dealing with the basics of getting by without having to address the conditioning, programming, coping strategies and the habitual behaviour patterns which have played out the whole of their lives and most likely past lives too.

This stuff is insidious and generally for most people, even if there was a willingness to deal with it, it is hidden from them. The way of acting out through life is so natural for them that they could not even imagine that it is something which could and should be removed.

You are quite right that even in the alternative scene the same issues are seen with people which play out in the collective mainstream. Spiritual experiences do not deal with these issues and may actually create more delusions to add on top of those already there.

Very often the spiritual experiences can appear very transforming and the person may feel that the transformation means that they are now acting from the “spirit” when in fact their actions are still driven by the same ego (I'm defining ego as activity of separate self) which has the same beliefs, conditioning, programs and habitual life/past lives behaviours.

At this stage there is even less need to address these underlying issues because the transformational spiritual experience has made the person feel better. They think they are awake when in fact the same old behaviours are present and few will probably take the steps necessary to clear them out.



You keep deluding yourself with your cute phrases. You want to prove to yourself that "All is Well" "All is as it should be" so you find a person to tell her/him everything about The Powers That Were and everything about their Multidimensional nature, your cute hopes get crushed when you realize this person couldn't care less and thinks you are nuts.... ah, but everything is as it should be, you tell yourself that "All is Well".

Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.




The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

What you seem to be suggesting in this last sentence is that only people who don’t cry when their bones are broken, can claim that the world is an illusion and of course everyone feels pain with broken bones, so you seem to be suggesting that it validates your view that the idea that this world is not illusory.




See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their [insert adjective] mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.





Quite right that “many” do because they speak from the knowledge that they have gained from reading/listening rather than experience. But many does not mean all and I will try to write something here to explain which doesn’t fall short for you and explains why people still cry when their bones get broken even though they realise it is an illusion.


The difficulty with the fact that the world is illusory, is that it can only be experienced. It is not something that can be understood by a conceptual mind. To the mind, the idea that everything is an illusion seems like nonsense because the mind can see that everything here exists and therefore if someone is claiming it is an illusion they must be in the realms of escapism because they can’t handle the cold, hard facts of a seriously messed up world.

But this realisation of the illusion is from an awareness which is vast compared to the relatively tiny conceptual mind which is which is making the judgement about the statement of the illusion.

The reality of someone living from the perspective that all this life is illusion is very different. Here, I am discerning between those who have realised this and shifted their perception permanently between those who are just repeating this because they have either learned or have had a temporary experience of it.

Everything that we perceive is temporary. Our life here in this body is temporary. When the body dies, our existence will remain exactly as it has always been. When we reincarnate again, body will be born, then die and after, the same existence will remain, completely unchanged by the temporary lives lived in human body form.

Most people do not investigate this permanent sense of existence that is always present and far more intimate than anything else. In fact most people don’t even realise it is here present because their awareness is fixed on the “I” that says it exists as opposed to the permanent, unchanging awareness which never says “I” exist.

Committed spiritual practice will bring attention to this awareness which is prior to everything. Over time this sense of what it is will expand and as this expansion happens, so a shift in perception will occur. The idea that everything perceived is an illusion will actually become reality because it will be seen quite clearly that everything arising in this awareness prior to everything, is just temporary and illusory in nature and has no effect on the permanent, unchanging awareness itself.

Once this takes place it is like the genie has been let out of the bottle and there is no putting it back in. It is realised that the whole world and “me” the person, is nothing but illusion and it is unshakeable fact. (Note – there are other ways of coming to this permanent realisation other than spiritual practice.)

Now when people understand this illusory nature from purely an intellectual knowing it never compares in terms of what it truly is to experience it. It’s like me describing to someone who has never eaten vanilla ice cream, what it is. I could describe the smell, the colour, the texture, the coldness, the taste and the sensation in the body when it is eaten and they would probably think they would get a fairly good idea about what I am talking but that description can never be compared to the “experience” of eating the ice cream.

When the shift in perception happens and everything is seen as illusion, the statement “All is Well” naturally arises. This has nothing to do with escapism. In fact when all is seen as illusion, life is engaged in more directly. The purpose of this life it to have an experience of the good, the bad and the ugly and we would only live this life and take part in the experiences/lessons, if it appeared real.

So to the human, the life seems very real. If your bones get broken, it hurts. If someone upsets you, you cry. If you cut yourself, you bleed. Whatever actions you take, there are consequences. You also get to experience a whole range of emotions such a love, joy, happiness, bliss, hope and alongside that all the opposites like hate, sadness, fear, judgement. It seems like there are real successes and triumphs alongside real pain, suffering and loss.

For someone with the perspective that all is illusion there is no reason not to engage fully and directly in all the experiences, even including everything which would be considered bad or painful. Far from being escapism, this is the opposite of the norm where people who see everything as absolutely real but spend their life avoiding pain and seeking pleasure.


Jeanette

Sammy
22nd October 2012, 11:49
One's ego can react to the word "superior" or one can understand the word in the context of where and when the word has been applied. I only go on my own experience. When I was younger and I perceived the human male as dominant (and thus subconsciously I perceived the human male as superior) I had a far less satisfying life and I experienced much greater difficulty. When I was introduced to "mystery school" information, and discovered "the Goddess" (aka the Primal Dragon), my view shifted. When my view started to shift, I had to experience an almost 100% deconstruction of my world view. When I began to experiment with new, world view foundations, my experience became dramatically different than that I had endured prior to my shift.

That my new world view perceives the "female" aspect as the "primal" aspect of "form" - in fact... through the feminine principle comes the realms of form, my entire experience has become strangely smooth, strangely in allignment with all that arises within my awareness.

Thus I found it wise to make my bets that I might be on the righter track here, but again, this is just what I have discovered and this does not mean it is true universally, nor true for any single other human being. I just share my experience and I share what seems to be working for me best today. If one is perceptive, they might be able to see that because they are trying to perceive (as only can be done from within the realms of form) that if you have to place a label of female / male, that one simultaneously creates the other, that "birth" is known to be a female action and thus if one could imagine prior to form then one within form could then apply a symbolic representation of this "prior to form" "realm" as male if one likes those types of labels.

I personally see it as what I call "pre Kether" which is nothing, light and limitless light - and then you have the primal trinity which is the first dive into form. Again, this is all my own subjective interpretation of the information I have received through being a conscious being and it is only represented by the words I have chosen meant to convey what likely cannot be spoken (much less written).

Enjoy the Day and Love to Us All - Chester

Sammy
22nd October 2012, 13:01
Very often the spiritual experiences can appear very transforming and the person may feel that the transformation means that they are now acting from the “spirit” when in fact their actions are still driven by the same ego (I'm defining ego as activity of separate self) which has the same beliefs, conditioning, programs and habitual life/past lives behaviours.


WoW! Lots in this post, Thanks Jenci - ok... I found the spiritual component to be a fixed component. It simply is and has one state - pureness. The ego I experience as a movement through my individuality. I do not see it as "the same" other than if you are simply describing what the word "ego" describes as a generality (thus apologies if I misinterpreted).

I found that earlier in my life I had an extremely unhealthy ego. One that was destructive to others and self destructive. One that created a great deal of anger energies which we know are fear based.

Now, my ego has moved to a more healthy form of expression where I generally directly piss people off less and less BUT, I have also found that the further an individual forms a solidly healthy ego, the collective ego is threatened more and more. From this perspective, we are all, to some extent "caught" within "the matrix."

What pisses the collective ego off the most are "knowers." This is usually revealed when one or more unhealthy egos "go off" and then throw their little tantrums (one of my favorite things to do). I also like to play "the knower" as some have likely concluded. Recently I discovered the last thing I need to know (for now). And that is that I am (and from which I also conclude most of us are) quantum beings. This then makes me a realized quantum being.

I am glad to have come upon the last thing I need to know because now I am able to choose if I want to be a being that is in positive (right) relationship with other quantum and non quantum beings or not. I found that my choice has been, YES, because I see the prospects of becoming "king of the hill" to be less attractive than to be happy just to be one of us. I concluded this because I see the intention of being just one of us increases the probability of extending my experience.

I found the key to creating and supporting this intention depends first and foremost upon my attitude. And my personal and specific attitude is summed up by the simple words, "I love life." And I often think of Kimberley as an example of someone who seems to love life like I do.

I found that simplifying life into this breakdown provides for me much more time in the enjoyment phase as opposed to the analysis phase. It means I might now be an actual "doer" more than just a thinker or speaker or writer. Something suggests to me that actions speak the loudest (not an original thought). And that means I am being a "be er" and doing so authentically. I am, today, quite an authentic spirit being and I have no issues stating this as my ego is relatively healthy.

Ooops, did I come across as some "knower?" It would be hard for anyone reading this to determine the truth of what I think I know unless one was able to experience me in the flesh. Thus, if any Avalonian and/or lurker ever gets to San Jose, Costa Rica... look me up. I am happy to spend the day with any of us (and we are all just us from my personal perspective).

Enjoy the Day and Love to Us All, Chester... justoneman

Finefeather
22nd October 2012, 15:50
Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.




The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

What you seem to be suggesting in this last sentence is that only people who don’t cry when their bones are broken, can claim that the world is an illusion and of course everyone feels pain with broken bones, so you seem to be suggesting that it validates your view that the idea that this world is not illusory.




See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their [insert adjective] mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.





Quite right that “many” do because they speak from the knowledge that they have gained from reading/listening rather than experience. But many does not mean all and I will try to write something here to explain which doesn’t fall short for you and explains why people still cry when their bones get broken even though they realise it is an illusion.


The difficulty with the fact that the world is illusory, is that it can only be experienced. It is not something that can be understood by a conceptual mind. To the mind, the idea that everything is an illusion seems like nonsense because the mind can see that everything here exists and therefore if someone is claiming it is an illusion they must be in the realms of escapism because they can’t handle the cold, hard facts of a seriously messed up world.

But this realisation of the illusion is from an awareness which is vast compared to the relatively tiny conceptual mind which is which is making the judgement about the statement of the illusion.

The reality of someone living from the perspective that all this life is illusion is very different. Here, I am discerning between those who have realised this and shifted their perception permanently between those who are just repeating this because they have either learned or have had a temporary experience of it.

Everything that we perceive is temporary. Our life here in this body is temporary. When the body dies, our existence will remain exactly as it has always been. When we reincarnate again, body will be born, then die and after, the same existence will remain, completely unchanged by the temporary lives lived in human body form.

Most people do not investigate this permanent sense of existence that is always present and far more intimate than anything else. In fact most people don’t even realise it is here present because their awareness is fixed on the “I” that says it exists as opposed to the permanent, unchanging awareness which never says “I” exist.

Committed spiritual practice will bring attention to this awareness which is prior to everything. Over time this sense of what it is will expand and as this expansion happens, so a shift in perception will occur. The idea that everything perceived is an illusion will actually become reality because it will be seen quite clearly that everything arising in this awareness prior to everything, is just temporary and illusory in nature and has no effect on the permanent, unchanging awareness itself.

Once this takes place it is like the genie has been let out of the bottle and there is no putting it back in. It is realised that the whole world and “me” the person, is nothing but illusion and it is unshakeable fact. (Note – there are other ways of coming to this permanent realisation other than spiritual practice.)

Now when people understand this illusory nature from purely an intellectual knowing it never compares in terms of what it truly is to experience it. It’s like me describing to someone who has never eaten vanilla ice cream, what it is. I could describe the smell, the colour, the texture, the coldness, the taste and the sensation in the body when it is eaten and they would probably think they would get a fairly good idea about what I am talking but that description can never be compared to the “experience” of eating the ice cream.

When the shift in perception happens and everything is seen as illusion, the statement “All is Well” naturally arises. This has nothing to do with escapism. In fact when all is seen as illusion, life is engaged in more directly. The purpose of this life it to have an experience of the good, the bad and the ugly and we would only live this life and take part in the experiences/lessons, if it appeared real.

So to the human, the life seems very real. If your bones get broken, it hurts. If someone upsets you, you cry. If you cut yourself, you bleed. Whatever actions you take, there are consequences. You also get to experience a whole range of emotions such a love, joy, happiness, bliss, hope and alongside that all the opposites like hate, sadness, fear, judgement. It seems like there are real successes and triumphs alongside real pain, suffering and loss.

For someone with the perspective that all is illusion there is no reason not to engage fully and directly in all the experiences, even including everything which would be considered bad or painful. Far from being escapism, this is the opposite of the norm where people who see everything as absolutely real but spend their life avoiding pain and seeking pleasure.


Jeanette

Hi Jeanette
Thanks for this excellent post...you are one wise gal :)
Love you
Ray

Reaver
22nd October 2012, 21:20
Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.
This is where I use my disclaimer card and clarify that I'm talking about a particular phenomenon. My beef is with those who would use the main idea of spirituality and everything contained within that idea, to pretend that they and the world at large is going to be fixed with those delusions. I'm pointing my finger towards a Simulacra of spirituality, but I'm not denying the possibility/probability/reality of Mystical experiences nor I'm stating that they don't have any value whatsoever.


What you seem to be suggesting in this last sentence is that only people who don’t cry when their bones are broken, can claim that the world is an illusion and of course everyone feels pain with broken bones, so you seem to be suggesting that it validates your view that the idea that this world is not illusory.

Far from it. Again, I'm pointing towards a Simulacra of "the real deal" if you will. Is this world illusory? it depends on what you mean by world. I guess you are pointing towards the world of matter. As I said before, the issue with matter is that we have an incomplete understanding of it. With a mystical experience you may get glimpses and the underlying principles which allow matter to manifest. Maybe you can use mathematics and quantum mechanics to further understand those principles. I still maintain that matter is not some illusory world per se, rather we have an incomplete understanding of it (due to various factors), so those who can look beyond will surely pierce through the illusory veil of ignorance... yet that doesn't make a person stand above the Natural Laws of the world of matter. Anyone can parrot how this world is just an illusion, but it's something else to try and give insights as to what or how this world is an illusion, which is what you are doing, expanding on it and not just parroting a mantra.

Anchor
22nd October 2012, 21:46
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol ;)

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

[off-topic]

Not in Australia it doesnt. In Australia it means f**king. I have to be careful to call network routers "row-ters" and not "root-ers" here :)

Carmody
22nd October 2012, 22:41
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol ;)

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

[off-topic]

Not in Australia it doesnt. In Australia it means f**king. I have to be careful to call network routers "row-ters" and not "root-ers" here :)

considering that the biggest ones are probably made by cisco and are probably compromised in all ways, the other pronunciation might be more appropriate.

Paul
22nd October 2012, 22:49
the biggest ones are probably made by cisco and are probably compromised in all ways
Good point -- you don't get to be the dominant player in a key infrastructure without being in cahoots with the bastards in charge. Our Internet backbone is surely pwned (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwned).

Anchor
22nd October 2012, 22:49
Finally finished reading this thread.

Quality stuff....

One man may consider it illusion, another man, even some similar thing, reality. How can this be?

What does a thing, previously identified as a real thing, then later described or identified as an illusion actually mean to the thinker who has made this observation?

We are individual and each may harbor subtly different subjective views and objectivity (in a discussion among self and otherselves) is only by agreement.

Carmody
22nd October 2012, 22:55
Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.
This is where I use my disclaimer card and clarify that I'm talking about a particular phenomenon. My beef is with those who would use the main idea of spirituality and everything contained within that idea, to pretend that they and the world at large is going to be fixed with those delusions. I'm pointing my finger towards a Simulacra of spirituality, but I'm not denying the possibility/probability/reality of Mystical experiences nor I'm stating that they don't have any value whatsoever.


What you seem to be suggesting in this last sentence is that only people who don’t cry when their bones are broken, can claim that the world is an illusion and of course everyone feels pain with broken bones, so you seem to be suggesting that it validates your view that the idea that this world is not illusory.

Far from it. Again, I'm pointing towards a Simulacra of "the real deal" if you will. Is this world illusory? it depends on what you mean by world. I guess you are pointing towards the world of matter. As I said before, the issue with matter is that we have an incomplete understanding of it. With a mystical experience you may get glimpses and the underlying principles which allow matter to manifest. Maybe you can use mathematics and quantum mechanics to further understand those principles. I still maintain that matter is not some illusory world per se, rather we have an incomplete understanding of it (due to various factors), so those who can look beyond will surely pierce through the illusory veil of ignorance... yet that doesn't make a person stand above the Natural Laws of the world of matter. Anyone can parrot how this world is just an illusion, but it's something else to try and give insights as to what or how this world is an illusion, which is what you are doing, expanding on it and not just parroting a mantra.

There is no parroting a mantra over here. Only scientific protocol and proofing.

and that which is available... is in great depth and of wide swath.

I could do this all day, reaver. And have. to the point of exhaustion and beyond.

The problem is - people listening. As in not listening. Fear, desires, feelings, and so on.

The evidence and data is, as stated, wide and deep.

Even the idea of waterboarding people into the truth is not strong enough, if they don't want to go there. For the truth will break their existing psyche/ego... and they do internally know that, even if their conscious mind denies and does not hear. Thus they refuse truth, until and upon the point of death. It is that strong within them. They'll kill you first.

So all one can do, is to parrot and act out in front of them. Over and over and over and over and over and over..again and again.

Or, grab them by the back of the neck and literally drown them in the truth. And drowning them does not work either. Lord knows, many have tried. The collective kills them for it.

Literally tying someone in a chair and beating the truth into them does not work. They refuse..that powerfully.

Only when it is their 'time', do they finally turn and accept change.

Which requires the parroting and the acting out of the mantras, in front of them.

Forever.

One at a time. When it is their individual time.

We may be on the cusp of a mass awakening but..thousands have said that before at different times.

westhill
23rd October 2012, 02:17
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Heroesjourney.svg

Every human being is their own hero, in their own time (not yours or mine).
Not many are ready at this moment... but they will be.

Jenci
23rd October 2012, 12:49
Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.
This is where I use my disclaimer card and clarify that I'm talking about a particular phenomenon. My beef is with those who would use the main idea of spirituality and everything contained within that idea, to pretend that they and the world at large is going to be fixed with those delusions. I'm pointing my finger towards a Simulacra of spirituality, but I'm not denying the possibility/probability/reality of Mystical experiences nor I'm stating that they don't have any value whatsoever.

Thank you for your clarification, Reaver. I think that it is not just a case of pretending but also they are believing this. Their strong beliefs keep them in denial. I can understand why people can be led into these delusions. Some spiritual experiences can be incredibly powerful and leave them with the sense of well-being, peace and happiness.

Of course it is not the ultimate Truth but when you feel good, after feeling bad for a long time, it is very seductive to let the experiences lead the way.

They talk about the (whole) Spirit guiding them and yet really it is the (divided/separate) ego which is running the show. It's cunning and masquerades as Spirit very well, allowing for perhaps some obvious life changes which appear to be for the better but scratch the surface and the same habitual tendencies are just as present as they always were.

They are like a silent program running in the background, unnoticed but keeping everything going. If you push that person's buttons, the same thing will trigger them that always has and they will react in the same way they always have but now they will notice it even less because they have the addition of love and happiness from their spiritual experiences which is acting as a mask.

Spotting how this ego - the activity of separation - disguises itself as the whole, complete Spirit is not easy. It takes a level of honesty which is usually far too brutal to come from the person them self.

Good spiritual teaching will shine the light on the trickery where if the ego's behaviour is spotted, kicked out the front door, it immediately appears back in the back door, firmly identifying itself as Spirit again; a chameleon always one step ahead of the individual.

The problem in the alternative scene is that a lot of the teachers have not gone through this process themselves and therefore are unable to guide their students/followers through it and out of the delusion, so the underlying programs, conditioning, habitual tendencies and reactions as just a firmly fixed in place.

But even if the person has a good teacher, the obstacle to this is the ego itself. Identify the programs, beliefs and conditioning that need to be removed and the ego's sense of identity/self is crushed to the point it will fear its imminent death and the death which is approaching will feel real and it will resist it with everything it has got.

I agree Carmody's analogy that you could waterboard board them and they will still resist because the removal of these things which define the self, is considered far worse than the torture.

So generally what happens, is the necessary steps are not taken and while surface appearances may show change, there's no real change at the core of the being. It's like clothes store which entices you in with a new window dressing of latest designs only to go inside and find the same old stuff which has been there for years which is up for sale.

So the question is what can be done? I don't actually believe that anything be done to get someone to realise this before they are ready. I hear your frustration, I have felt it too but I have come to realise on a deeper level that everyone is doing what they need to be doing.

We are having this life experience which has been tailor made to our own individual soul requirements which are realised beyond this level of physical manifestation. Some people are here to experience what it is like to be led by their fears and desires. Others are here to move on from that.

When someone is truly ready because it is their time, they will embrace the work that needs to be done to clear the way. In fact I would say, they will be so driven, nothing will stop them.




Is this world illusory? it depends on what you mean by world. I guess you are pointing towards the world of matter.

By world I meant everything. Perhaps it would be better to say that the illusion is everything that is perceived........which includes the world, the rest of the universe, everything contained in it, people, you, me, my mind, my body, my thoughts, my feelings etc. It's that which is prior to perceiving which is Real, the Source.


Jeanette

Fred Steeves
23rd October 2012, 13:03
When someone is truly ready because it is their time, they will embrace the work that needs to be done to clear the way. In fact I would say, they will be so driven, nothing will stop them.


And there we have it, straight between the eyes.

Kiforall
23rd October 2012, 13:35
But what if we are alone in this sector of the Universe, the Source has forgotten about its children and there's no alien army nor a cosmic wave that will save the day,? can we face the possibility that we are alone in a Dark Abyss and that it's up to us and only us to get ourselves out of this mess? can we face the possibility that we are far from being divine and that we are a bunch of broken humans who have to sweat and bleed to achieve divinity?

The Source has not forgotten about it's children but the apron strIngs have been cut. That does not mean we are not alone. When we see how many thanks are given to a post like this we see we are not alone. I think we need to realize we don't need the Source to clean up this mess.
We need each other. We have each other and I see the small changes happening, small disclosures at the moment but good is beginning to tip the balance. The faith should be with each other.

Zoe x

donk
23rd October 2012, 13:38
I just had a thought:

My spiritual belief is that every living thing has a spirit (and maybe even "non-living" things), which is at the most basic, a consciousness that has at least the illusion of free will, if not actual free will (I do not beleive the difference is discernable). Spirits have experiences.

Outside of this framework, this construst I call reality--anything else attached to it is "inauthentic". It may be interesting, fun, horrifying, "important", a waste of time--any of an infinite number of descriptions or conditions--but those are all just details**

The alternative "scene" necessarily needs to be entertaining (or something) needs to have some of these conditions/descriptions/details to exist, as does anything a spirit or group of spirits creates for it to exist. Just because something is "inauthentic" doesn't make it not real. It is real because the spirits believe, and each idea has exactly the amount of strength and energy that we (spirits) give to it.


**the devil is in the details

greybeard
23rd October 2012, 13:41
When someone is truly ready because it is their time, they will embrace the work that needs to be done to clear the way. In fact I would say, they will be so driven, nothing will stop them.


And there we have it, straight between the eyes.

Yes
According to the late Dr Hawkins your being pulled by your destiny.
Eventually the pull is so strong that resistance is futile and painful.

Adyashanti says "Ask what is really important, what is the most important thing? (to you)

So eventually you have to get real and ask that question.
Once you make a sincere commitment to find the answer to the question "What am I?" then you are driven--- you are pulled.
"Coincidences" draw the right lessons to you and some are very painful

Dr Hawkins said-- "If you want to make fast spiritual progress become an alcoholic and join AA."

It works I can truthfully say but I would not recommend it.
You have to be strong enough to surrender.-- smiling.
Chris

ROMANWKT
23rd October 2012, 14:13
Hi all
Check this out http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51214-Mutant-humanity

roman

Jenci
23rd October 2012, 21:12
Although there's nothing we can do to help someone see delusion unless they are ready, information has a way of filtering through over time, so a thread like this has the potential to do some good even if it does not happen immediately.


My initial awakening was spontaneous and within a moment I went from a drunk, not far from my last fatal drink, to being transformed to someone with no need for alcohol, full of life and feeling immense joy. Prior to this I had never studied the subject of spiritual awakening. I didn’t know quite what had happened but I knew it was special.

A couple of weeks after this experience someone came up to me, she was looking at me in a state of awe and she asked me if she could touch me. She said she could feel "it"; something was radiating off me that she wanted to touch.

She stood there for a while touching my arms and staring at me like she was in a trance. Now if before this I thought what had happened to me was special, this really confirmed it to me.

I went through the next few months in such an amazing heady state of bliss. It was like I was being lifted up and carried through life. I felt untouchable and the power that was surging through me was incredible. If you had asked me back then if I could walk on water, I would have said yes. In fact I may have even mentioned it once or twice. ;) My transformation was profound and I knew from looking at all the people around me that this doesn't happen to everyone.

Curious about what had happened, I looked for a spiritual teacher but could not find one near me so I started reading up on spiritual awakening. Some months later I came across a book which really interested me but as I read it, I got the sense it was telling me that what had happened to me was not spiritual awakening.

I remember disregarding this comment in the book and thinking that it had been put in the book for the “others” who hadn’t got it like me. As I went on with reading, it dawned on me that he was talking to everyone reading the book and I got angry - how dare he!

Fortunately something was also present which was telling me that maybe I had got it wrong. I came to realise that in my pursuit of knowledge of spiritual awakening, I had read everything only from a perspective which would validate my experience and I had disregarded the rest.

It had now occurred to me that there was a possibility that I had not awoken like I thought and maybe it was time to start paying attention to all those things I didn’t want to hear, rather than just the ones that resonated.

It was time to get humble, so I allowed the idea to seep in that I was not spiritually awake and that all that had happened, although it was incredibly profound, was that I had an experience; something which was impermanent.

This humility snapped me out of this blissful stage I was in and I realised that I had been fooled and deluded by my experience and from then on I decided that I was going to expose the fraud wherever it lurked within me. I realised that the spiritual path was not about feeling better, being at peace or being happy.

It was about the Truth and nothing else and I knew I wouldn’t stop short until I had removed everything which stood in the way of it, however painful or unpleasant it would be and so I embarked on some intense spiritual practise to do that.

Looking back now to those early days, I had the urge to pass on what I had to everyone. I was very lucky something also told me to keep quiet. If I had gone on the internet or made you tube videos I could have been dangerous; packaging my delusions up as awakening and leading others into delusion too.

Jeanette

Finefeather
24th October 2012, 09:59
This humility snapped me out of this blissful stage I was in and I realised that I had been fooled and deluded by my experience and from then on I decided that I was going to expose the fraud wherever it lurked within me. I realised that the spiritual path was not about feeling better, being at peace or being happy.

It was about the Truth and nothing else and I knew I wouldn’t stop short until I had removed everything which stood in the way of it, however painful or unpleasant it would be and so I embarked on some intense spiritual practise to do that.

Looking back now to those early days, I had the urge to pass on what I had to everyone. I was very lucky something also told me to keep quiet. If I had gone on the internet or made you tube videos I could have been dangerous; packaging my delusions up as awakening and leading others into delusion too.

Jeanette
Hi Jeanette
Great story thanks...a true example of the way.
What you have described is a classic case of spiritual glamor...which is emotional deception...which lead in turn to a mental illusion. This state is very common as we get to the crest of the hill of enlightenment. We see ourselves as ready and we think we have conquered the world. This is the state I call "ignorance is bliss"...a spiritual arrogant state...what we are actually radiating at this stage is an emotional state of bliss. BUT...don't forget...this is a most necessary stage in our growth because it allows us to experience this arrogance and self deception and we need this stage so we can clearly recognize it in ourselves and others. Many people go live times in this state of blissful arrogance...and in one life or another the penny will drop.
When you 'fell over the crest of the hill' you realized truth and it is at that moment that we become enlightened. Truth is the only way because we can be our own judge of our reality. Humility is knowing the vastness of life and just how much we do not know. Once we reach this point we also know what is authentic and what is illusion because we have been there, in the thick of illusion and we can testify to the reality of 'inauthenticity'.
Truth is the mighty humbler and there are none so blind as those who do not want to see.
When we recognize and realize this our life becomes useful and we become servers of humanity . From this point we need constant feedback sessions with our selves to avoid the many pitfalls that await. From this point we become targets for those who wish to lure us back down the hill. In time we become invincible and true warriors of the light.

Much love to you
Ray

Sammy
24th October 2012, 14:05
Sometimes there are great posts on this forum. Sometimes there are perhaps the greatest advice of all. My gut tells me these last two posts (and many in the last page or so of this thread) are critically important for someone like me who has discovered the last thing I need to know (in this physical lifetime).

Since I am the only one I need worry about in this regard, I will avoid the lower self's head game of suggesting this advice be considered by others. "Spiritual arrogance" comes to mind. When I consider another here to be projecting spiritual arrogance, I am holding the mirror up only to myself. I find that keeping this fact constantly in mind at this time of my personal evolution is critical to accomplishing the greater mission, which is to be of service to others.

Thanks Jeanette and Ray, Love Chester

donk
24th October 2012, 14:41
Gotta agree with Ches, this is one of my favorite threads ever...found a line by markpierre I HAD to have in my sig line, now this gem from Finefeather (mind if I use it shove it in there too FF?):

Truth is the mighty humbler and there are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

"constant feedback sessions" is how I try to live, thanks for that one too!

GloriousPoetry
24th October 2012, 14:57
When I talk about imagination I am talking about the spiritual body and this doesn't fully awaken in you until you have gone through some really ugly furnaces in this world. Read Neville Goddard " Awakened Imagination"

When I was in my 20's I had the same rants about this world and now in my 40's I realize that what Neville Goddard has to say is some of the most genuine stuff I have applied in my life. Much of my poetry stems from this perspective.

Save a place for when you manifest your creative act no one can tell you it was based on fact but rather it came from penetrating the fact to arrive where your place was first at through your own special knack.

When the inner highways of the spiritual body are awakened they spill out into this world through imaginative eyes.

Many Blessings,

Gloria

Sammy
25th October 2012, 02:11
If you are hoping to transcend or get rid of or otherwise escape your ego - GL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXxarh4El9w

"A Thousand Years"

A thousand years, a thousand more,
A thousand times a million doors to eternity
I may have lived a thousand lives, a thousand times
An endless turning stairway climbs
To a tower of souls
If it takes another thousand years, a thousand wars,
The towers rise to numberless floors in space
I could shed another million tears, a million breaths,
A million names but only one truth to face

A million roads, a million fears
A million suns, ten million years of uncertainty
I could speak a million lies, a million songs,
A million rights, a million wrongs in this balance of time
But if there was a single truth, a single light
A single thought, a singular touch of grace
Then following this single point , this single flame,
The single haunted memory of your face

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head

I may be numberless, I may be innocent
I may know many things, I may be ignorant
Or I could ride with kings and conquer many lands
Or win this world at cards and let it slip my hands
I could be cannon food, destroyed a thousand times
Reborn as fortune's child to judge another's crimes
Or wear this pilgrim's cloak, or be a common thief
I've kept this single faith, I have but one belief

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head
On and on the mysteries unwind themselves
Eternities still unsaid
'Til you love me

Arrowwind
25th October 2012, 03:22
Actually it is a genetic deviation from the female genetic code paradigm though the action of genes upon an ovum that a female becomes a male at the time of conception. We have been lied to since the beginning... the beginning of this round anyway. Out of woman's code man is born through the alteration of that code from an outside force. A genetic modification so to speak. An ovum is a seed. A sperm is a living genetic code modification potential...

Can you point towards works which elaborate on the idea? I suspect science can explain this, well at least to a degree that is.

A few thoughts from Robert Morning Sky:

This audio highlights Robert Morning Sky's statement:
http://robertmorningsky.com/2013%20MAN%20OF%20FIRE.mp3


"In the ancient ways of the Semsiye, the oldest shamanic tradition - We are a species that is comprised of females and altered females."


"The Y chromosome developed from the X chromosome. The Y chromosome is an altered X chromosome. On the Science.mag website (see abstract below): Human sex chromosomes evolved from autosomes. The first event which marked the beginnings of X/Y differentiation occurred about 240-320 million years ago, shortly after the divergence of mammalian and avian lineage. Somewhere between 240- 320 million years ago the Y chromosome did not exist. If the Y chromosome is the defining aspect of a male then long, long ago the male did not exist."

His conclusion: "We human beings are a species initially genetically directed toward becoming females. Then, a change occurred and we became a species comprised of females and altered females."

Robert Morning Sky's website:
http://robertmorningsky.com/manoffire.html

Supporting Abstracts:

Science 29 October 1999:
Vol. 286 no. 5441 pp. 964-967
DOI: 10.1126/science.286.5441.964
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/286/5441/964.abstract?sid=32e7a60d-d160-4eb2-9417-044d5e7f296e
Abstract:
"Human sex chromosomes evolved from autosomes. Nineteen ancestral autosomal genes persist as differentiated homologs on the X and Y chromosomes. The ages of individual X-Y gene pairs (measured by nucleotide divergence) and the locations of their X members on the X chromosome were found to be highly correlated. Age decreased in stepwise fashion from the distal long arm to the distal short arm in at least four “evolutionary strata.” Human sex chromosome evolution was probably punctuated by at least four events, each suppressing X-Y recombination in one stratum, without disturbing gene order on the X chromosome. The first event, which marked the beginnings of X-Y differentiation, occurred about 240 to 320 million years ago, shortly after divergence of the mammalian and avian lineages."

And

http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/dever/sex_chrom_review.pdf
Abstract
"Sex chromosomes have a disproportionate influence on health and disease. Both the X and Y are atypical in gene content and activity, as a result of their unique evolutionary trajectory. The X and Y chromosomes originated in a pair of autosomes, and differentiated as the Y chromosome degenerated progressively. The Y contains few active genes and is composed largely of repetitive DNA sequences. Most Y genes have copies on the X from which they evolved; this includes even the sex-determining gene SRY as well as several genes required for spermatogenesis. The X contains a disproportionate number of genes that affect reproduction and brain function (or both). It is also subject to inactivation in females, so that females are mosaics composed of patches of tissue that express only the genes on either the maternally or the paternally derived X chromosome. Several widely expressed genes on the Y chromosome code for male-specific proteins that provoke an immune reaction in females; this HY antigen has a measurable effect on maternal-fetal incompatibility. Imprinted paternal X inactivation in rodent extraembryonic tissues would be expected to mitigate the effect of foreign paternal antigens; however, paternal inactivation seems not to occur in the human placenta."

Whoa! that's much more than any Universtiy text that I managed to chew through! and it does concur with what I learned and all wrapped up and hidden in there is the reason that we have homosexuals, which is not a learned behavior, but a genetic code manefestation and it also accounts for why young males have a lower survival rate than females. Haven't yet, but I will listen to the links you provided.

Jenci
25th October 2012, 12:24
What you have described is a classic case of spiritual glamor...which is emotional deception...which lead in turn to a mental illusion. This state is very common as we get to the crest of the hill of enlightenment. We see ourselves as ready and we think we have conquered the world. This is the state I call "ignorance is bliss"...a spiritual arrogant state...what we are actually radiating at this stage is an emotional state of bliss. BUT...don't forget...this is a most necessary stage in our growth because it allows us to experience this arrogance and self deception and we need this stage so we can clearly recognize it in ourselves and others.
This is a very important point, thanks Ray. While it may appear that something has gone very wrong, it is a very important lesson for the person going through it.





Truth is the mighty humbler and there are none so blind as those who do not want to see.
The willingness to see is key. With willingness much can be seen and accomplished even if the delusion is thick. If there is no willingness to see through it, then they won't see.



Jeanette

Sammy
25th October 2012, 12:36
Whilst I think you are incredibly perceptive with your analysis of both individual and collective in the alternative scene, you are painting with a broad brush here. Although there may be some people who use the phrase “All is well” in an attempt to feel better, the phrase was borne out of a greater awareness of the Truth and it is used also by people who are actually awake. However perceptive you are, I would suggest your perception here is limited to your mind, rather than the field of awareness it perceived from.
This is where I use my disclaimer card and clarify that I'm talking about a particular phenomenon. My beef is with those who would use the main idea of spirituality and everything contained within that idea, to pretend that they and the world at large is going to be fixed with those delusions. I'm pointing my finger towards a Simulacra of spirituality, but I'm not denying the possibility/probability/reality of Mystical experiences nor I'm stating that they don't have any value whatsoever.


What you seem to be suggesting in this last sentence is that only people who don’t cry when their bones are broken, can claim that the world is an illusion and of course everyone feels pain with broken bones, so you seem to be suggesting that it validates your view that the idea that this world is not illusory.

Far from it. Again, I'm pointing towards a Simulacra of "the real deal" if you will. Is this world illusory? it depends on what you mean by world. I guess you are pointing towards the world of matter. As I said before, the issue with matter is that we have an incomplete understanding of it. With a mystical experience you may get glimpses and the underlying principles which allow matter to manifest. Maybe you can use mathematics and quantum mechanics to further understand those principles. I still maintain that matter is not some illusory world per se, rather we have an incomplete understanding of it (due to various factors), so those who can look beyond will surely pierce through the illusory veil of ignorance... yet that doesn't make a person stand above the Natural Laws of the world of matter. Anyone can parrot how this world is just an illusion, but it's something else to try and give insights as to what or how this world is an illusion, which is what you are doing, expanding on it and not just parroting a mantra.

To discuss anything like this and not consider how critical the "perspective" component is to each and every point is expressing a degree of ignorance. When one can take the next step in understanding that no one can ever share the exact same perspective, one is humbled by also knowing one's truth is really only ever true for the one. And if one is truly honest, that truth will likely change though not all have to change.

I found the last truth I need to know which made me a realized quantum being (my words), but what is my perspective? It is coming from the perspective of a human being experiencing their present lifetime. In that context, what I state is likely true. But from the perspective of my actual being (my Spirit) I am equally certain it is not the last thing I need to know.

Now down to the next level, female / male. The following is clearly subjective. I found that of the two types of human beings that exist on earth at this time, the female is the superior type from the various perspectives that are most important to me. The first of those is based on my observation that in general, females appear to be far more interested in preservation as opposed to risk taking. I found that risk taking increases the chances of destruction. Yes, risk taking also can create new experiences... but with the globe in its current state, perhaps we might be better served if we focused more on preserving what we have which is first and foremost planet Earth. I will stop at this for now but there is far, far more perspectives that then support my view of female superiority.

Jenci
25th October 2012, 14:59
If you are hoping to transcend or get rid of or otherwise escape your ego - GL


"A Thousand Years"

A thousand years, a thousand more,
A thousand times a million doors to eternity
I may have lived a thousand lives, a thousand times
An endless turning stairway climbs
To a tower of souls
If it takes another thousand years, a thousand wars,
The towers rise to numberless floors in space
I could shed another million tears, a million breaths,
A million names but only one truth to face

A million roads, a million fears
A million suns, ten million years of uncertainty
I could speak a million lies, a million songs,
A million rights, a million wrongs in this balance of time
But if there was a single truth, a single light
A single thought, a singular touch of grace
Then following this single point , this single flame,
The single haunted memory of your face

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head

I may be numberless, I may be innocent
I may know many things, I may be ignorant
Or I could ride with kings and conquer many lands
Or win this world at cards and let it slip my hands
I could be cannon food, destroyed a thousand times
Reborn as fortune's child to judge another's crimes
Or wear this pilgrim's cloak, or be a common thief
I've kept this single faith, I have but one belief

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head
On and on the mysteries unwind themselves
Eternities still unsaid
'Til you love me


Hi Chester

This idea that nothing can be done about the ego is the ego itself talking. It likes to play this trick; it’s how it maintains its control.

The ego is often misunderstood. People tend to think it’s defined as the ‘big shot - I’ m special’ character but it manifests just the same in someone who is a frightened victim.

The ego is purely an activity of separation. It keeps the person separate from the Source by giving them the sense that “I” exist, as this body/mind/person, rather than existing as the Source.

It does this through a very simple movement of grasping and resisting. Basically, it’s fears and desires.

The fear is resisting and the desire is grasping. It’s avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. It’s the human condition. All problems people have can be stripped back to this ego grasping and resisting movement; the desires and fears.

So is it possible to transcend desires and fears? Of course it is. Fears and desires are natural emotions but the problem people have with the ego is that they are identified with it. In other words they have a fear and think "I'm frightened" or they have a desire and think "I need".

So when the ego thinks or acts, in this movement of grasping and resisting, they act accordingly, seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.

The inner spiritual work is about freeing the identification with the ego and realising that you are not the ego, which is the separation from the Source. It is not a denial of personality. As individuals we each have a unique, natural, inherent personality which is free from fears and desires but this will only be revealed when the obstacles of fears and desires have been removed.

This freeing of identity with the ego is not a case of stating that you are ‘one with the Source’ but rather something which is realised when you are no longer led around life by your desires and fears.

In the alternative scene there is much talk about love and love is being used to deal with the fear and the darkness and very often what happens is people have spiritual experiences in which they see transformations and they feel better – love conquers all and the fear is gone. Well, supposedly...

All that has happened is that the ego has switched its movement from resisting (fear) to grasping (desire). It’s a very simple movement and predictable.

If their belief/Spirit/love is challenged, resistance will be observed. The grasping of the spiritual self-identity is really fear in disguise; fear of the fear and therefore clinging elsewhere to avoid it.


This identification with their desires and fears is so natural for them that they never question it and instead externalise the source of their problems, difficulties and dissatisfaction in life.

Another thing which is often misunderstood is the unconditional love which Source is. Unconditional means, no conditions. It doesn’t mind either way. Good or bad, no matter. It doesn’t grasp or resist. It doesn’t mind fear, it doesn’t mind happiness.

Very often people talk about being guided by what resonates and while it is true that Truth can have a certain vibration to it which can speak volumes, being pissed off can be the greatest spiritual gem there is. Avoiding being pissed off in favour of clinging to harmony, misses vital opportunities to have life stir up our very deepest issues and manifestations of fears and desires.

Some people may go a thousand years and still be where they are at today but some will, this life time, gain the courage and resolve to delve into the very deepest, darkest aspects of their being.

This moment is all there is and however bad this moment appears to be it with the PTB, the archons, wars, GMO, chemtrails, etc, it’s still the moment to fully face and engage with what is arising within and therefore calling for your attention.


Jeanette

Eram
25th October 2012, 15:51
Very often people talk about being guided by what resonates and while it is true that Truth can have a certain vibration to it which can speak volumes, being pissed off can be the greatest spiritual gem there is. Avoiding being pissed off in favour of clinging to harmony, misses vital opportunities to have life stir up our very deepest issues and manifestations of fears and desires.

Ahh,

another one for on a bathroom tile!


I am a Libra and this here goes for people like me especially. :)


Thank you Jeanette

westhill
25th October 2012, 19:18
Reaver. Where are you?
Have we bored you?

Reaver
25th October 2012, 19:58
I do have a life out there, you know? I don't spend my days wondering how I can entertain crowds on virtual forums. American Idol or X Factor can do that.

angelahedgehog
26th October 2012, 12:08
A fatalist rant, I almost cut my veins when I finished the product:

So what we'll do is to create brand new versions of corrupted Spirituality and Authenticity. We have terms like Indigo, Star seed, Star child, Multidimensional, Light bodies, Divine. But everyone seems to be scared ****less of just being a mere human being who has to put effort, sweat, blood and tears to achieve perfection (if that's even possible). Who wants to stare at the abyss only to realize that they have been seriously dissociated since day one? who wants to stare at a mirror to see their own weakness reflected?

....

You keep deluding yourself with your cute phrases. You want to prove to yourself that "All is Well" "All is as it should be" so you find a person to tell her/him everything about The Powers That Were and everything about their Multidimensional nature, your cute hopes get crushed when you realize this person couldn't care less and thinks you are nuts.... ah, but everything is as it should be, you tell yourself that "All is Well".

...

How can anyone who denies the harsh and ugly reality within themselves and out there call themselves authentic and spiritual? how can anyone who is afraid of becoming more be called authentic? I call these types delusional.



Ah I really relate to a lot of what you've said .... But I don't have a definitive answer (yet) ...
"Beatings will continue until morale improves" ;)

Some days I wonder whether we're all just waiting for an inevitable moment when all the conditions will be right for us to take back our planet. I wonder if its a moment we're waiting for because I just don't think that it's something that any one single person can do. Skills to acquire, teamwork to aspire .... I know, grammatically it's a bit off ;)

On the whole, Our unity as the human species has been vastly decimated, our trust sorely tested and although controllable to an extent, fear is subliminally fed through the wires and air all the time. If you stand up for something and face the wrong sort of energy, entity, human, whatever .... You could end up disgraced and discredited ... Lets look at the lyrics of Michael Jackson songs, lets look at what he said about Sony's CEO - but chances are most people only remember the scandal (Pavlov's dog) - I don't want to get into a debate about MJ just illustrating a point.

Deliberate? Debilitating? Destructive?

Of course the pools of spirituality have been muddied ... But it's a little extreme to believe that it was all architected with negative intention. I believe that each time it was created by a well-intended person or group of people who thought they were making their mark, giving people something better to aspire to than arguing, territorial posturing and constant dissension - unity and nations were especially important because during those times it was probably one of the biggest land grabs in the history of the planet.

So I guess we tend to fall back onto trusting the process of life. From great adversity arises strength - maybe inner at first, hopefully outer in the end. The black wave is creeping across the globe. We cannot turn our backs when the hens come home to roost. The warning bells have been sounding for years .... I suspect we passed the tipping point a while ago .... And now we wait for an inevitable moment, the opportunity to bury the bunkers or blow the ships out the sky. (Or a mass awakening)

In the meantime the is a lot to appreciate about being alive on Earth at a time like this. Human beings are creative, inventive and really very loving. Don't let the "icons" fool you, not everyone is into the cornuto and the missing eyeball. Most people are actually very nice - especially when they're deprogrammed.

I could go on, but it's my first day :) x

Sammy
27th October 2012, 12:16
If you are hoping to transcend or get rid of or otherwise escape your ego - GL


"A Thousand Years"

A thousand years, a thousand more,
A thousand times a million doors to eternity
I may have lived a thousand lives, a thousand times
An endless turning stairway climbs
To a tower of souls
If it takes another thousand years, a thousand wars,
The towers rise to numberless floors in space
I could shed another million tears, a million breaths,
A million names but only one truth to face

A million roads, a million fears
A million suns, ten million years of uncertainty
I could speak a million lies, a million songs,
A million rights, a million wrongs in this balance of time
But if there was a single truth, a single light
A single thought, a singular touch of grace
Then following this single point , this single flame,
The single haunted memory of your face

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head

I may be numberless, I may be innocent
I may know many things, I may be ignorant
Or I could ride with kings and conquer many lands
Or win this world at cards and let it slip my hands
I could be cannon food, destroyed a thousand times
Reborn as fortune's child to judge another's crimes
Or wear this pilgrim's cloak, or be a common thief
I've kept this single faith, I have but one belief

I still love you
I still want you
A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
Like galaxies in my head
On and on the mysteries unwind themselves
Eternities still unsaid
'Til you love me


Hi Chester

This idea that nothing can be done about the ego is the ego itself talking. It likes to play this trick; it’s how it maintains its control.

The ego is often misunderstood. People tend to think it’s defined as the ‘big shot - I’ m special’ character but it manifests just the same in someone who is a frightened victim.

The ego is purely an activity of separation. It keeps the person separate from the Source by giving them the sense that “I” exist, as this body/mind/person, rather than existing as the Source.

It does this through a very simple movement of grasping and resisting. Basically, it’s fears and desires.

The fear is resisting and the desire is grasping. It’s avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. It’s the human condition. All problems people have can be stripped back to this ego grasping and resisting movement; the desires and fears.

So is it possible to transcend desires and fears? Of course it is. Fears and desires are natural emotions but the problem people have with the ego is that they are identified with it. In other words they have a fear and think "I'm frightened" or they have a desire and think "I need".

So when the ego thinks or acts, in this movement of grasping and resisting, they act accordingly, seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.

The inner spiritual work is about freeing the identification with the ego and realising that you are not the ego, which is the separation from the Source. It is not a denial of personality. As individuals we each have a unique, natural, inherent personality which is free from fears and desires but this will only be revealed when the obstacles of fears and desires have been removed.

This freeing of identity with the ego is not a case of stating that you are ‘one with the Source’ but rather something which is realised when you are no longer led around life by your desires and fears.

In the alternative scene there is much talk about love and love is being used to deal with the fear and the darkness and very often what happens is people have spiritual experiences in which they see transformations and they feel better – love conquers all and the fear is gone. Well, supposedly...

All that has happened is that the ego has switched its movement from resisting (fear) to grasping (desire). It’s a very simple movement and predictable.

If their belief/Spirit/love is challenged, resistance will be observed. The grasping of the spiritual self-identity is really fear in disguise; fear of the fear and therefore clinging elsewhere to avoid it.


This identification with their desires and fears is so natural for them that they never question it and instead externalise the source of their problems, difficulties and dissatisfaction in life.

Another thing which is often misunderstood is the unconditional love which Source is. Unconditional means, no conditions. It doesn’t mind either way. Good or bad, no matter. It doesn’t grasp or resist. It doesn’t mind fear, it doesn’t mind happiness.

Very often people talk about being guided by what resonates and while it is true that Truth can have a certain vibration to it which can speak volumes, being pissed off can be the greatest spiritual gem there is. Avoiding being pissed off in favour of clinging to harmony, misses vital opportunities to have life stir up our very deepest issues and manifestations of fears and desires.

Some people may go a thousand years and still be where they are at today but some will, this life time, gain the courage and resolve to delve into the very deepest, darkest aspects of their being.

This moment is all there is and however bad this moment appears to be it with the PTB, the archons, wars, GMO, chemtrails, etc, it’s still the moment to fully face and engage with what is arising within and therefore calling for your attention.


Jeanette

Hi Jenci,

No where in any of my comments did I suggest that there is nothing that can be done about the ego. Because I agree with everything you have written above, it is strange to me that you would address your post to me. Perhaps I simply trigger something within something you are experiencing because of my new found confidence in discovering the last thing I need to know for my current lifetime's earth based experience. I am fortunate that I have still plenty of other things to discover in this lifetime and that is what keeps me interested. Of these many things, I am starting to discover that I love everyone. Some folks I don't like very much but I have yet to meet a single person I do not love. I also enjoy being the change I want to see. I see sometimes how my lower self (the unhealthy ego) can dominate me. I have yet to see my higher self do "me" (my healthy ego) wrong. Perhaps we simply have a different definition for ego. That's likely the case. If you happen to go to Wikipedia, you will find dozens of viewpoints regarding what the ego is.

My definition for ego is the very first level of fooling myself that i am other than the all that is. I also see everyone else as the all that is simply fooling themselves they are not. I see all this as the "trick" I had to play on myself to experience myself. I am ok with the trick and I am ok with the experiential realms. I am sad that not everyone appears to have figured out how we simply choose or not to be in positive, right relationship with all else and thus then what a collective experience we might have. Something suggests to me that even in 3D there are likely planets with beings who have collectively figured this out. I hope one day to have the opportunity to incarnate in one of those situations if they exist.

Here is the wikipedia link that demonstrates all the various views of what ego (through the lens of spirituality) is to the various viewers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_%28spirituality%29


I do not completely share Tolle's view for example because I appreciate the original idea of experiencing myself though I can understand some might view taking that first step as insane. My opinion of that is that once I figured out the last thing I needed to know, my insanity vanished (as did any remnant that I am at all separate from all and everything else). Note that the "quantum" component is the key word that implies connectivity with all. "Being" implies that I am one of many experiencing "myself." and of course, "realized" simply implies I fully figured this out. I know other realized quantum beings and thus I am glad not to be alone.

I share more Ken Wilber's view. As an example of a healthy ego, I like to point out Tim Freke. Anyways, I hope this helps clear up what appears to me to be some misunderstanding on your part, Jenci.

Love to You, Chester

Jenci
27th October 2012, 15:53
Hi Jenci,

Because I agree with everything you have written above, it is strange to me that you would address your post to me. Perhaps I simply trigger something within something you are experiencing because of my new found confidence in discovering the last thing I need to know


I was responding to the comment you made, which I put in bold text in my post.


If you are hoping to transcend or get rid of or otherwise escape your ego - GL

It is possible to transcend your ego, which is what I have been talking about in this thread.





Perhaps we simply have a different definition for ego. That's likely the case. If you happen to go to Wikipedia, you will find dozens of viewpoints regarding what the ego is.

Absolutely right, there are different definitions and interpretations for what ego is. If I could throw out the word 'ego' and not use it at all, it would be a lot simpler but people receiving information need some sort of reference point to frame their understanding.

We may have spritual teacher Mr X who says that you have to transcend the ego and then we may have spiritual teacher Mr Y who says that we need our ego and have to integrate within our realisation. Add to that, someone else may say we need to get rid of our ego as opposed to transcend or go beyond it.

So what is the ego?.. and if two different people are teaching two different things are they still using the same definition for "ego"?

And if not, then can we compare their teaching, like for like, to determine who is right and who is wrong? How is the spiritual seeker supposed to work out who they should and shouldn't listen to and what they should and shouldn't do?

All this does is just add confusion about different concepts so what I attempted to do in this thread is make it absolutely clear what my definition of ego was by stating what it was and what it wasn't.

I said it was an activity of separation which enables us to live as a separate person from the Source.

I said it was not the same as our unique, inherent personality which is free from desires and fears.

I described it as an "activity" and a "movement" and I used these words deliberately to give "sense" of what I am talking about, physically in the body.

This can move understanding of what the ego is as a mental concept, which is open to confusion and debate, to something which can be determined in a very physical, experiential way.

I stated that this activity is simply desires and fears. Again this is something that people can relate to far easier than ideas and concepts.

To sum up - Spiritual work is about freeing identification with the desires and fears to allow the Source to express through the human body as the One, rather than the separate person.

Jeanette

Nanoo Nanoo
27th October 2012, 17:39
I like a lot of what you are writing. If i get it id say your expressing the frustration caused by the gap between spiritual belief systems and actual manifestation.


True this the leap of faith is widely misunderstood. How it works has never really been encapsulated into a formula that survives its resistance from obvious cabals.

Dreaming is great, having faith and spirituality is great and nessesary but if you want a leaf out of my book, its to get off our bums and take action to fulfill the dreams and faith mechanisms we so dearly cling to.

Here is is ina simple formula that we can all understand.

Dream : ie, fall asleep fantasising of your desires and goals whilst smiling into them

Believe : ie, make it tangible with real planning and research.

Achieve : ie, take action, define a list of sequential events that will bring your dreams to fruition. And do not stop till you finish your task!

Excellent thread :-) and nice writing btw.

N

Carmody
27th October 2012, 18:38
I do have a life out there, you know? I don't spend my days wondering how I can entertain crowds on virtual forums. American Idol or X Factor can do that.

well., you are 22 years old and still running around stabbing people with your 'developing slant on life' that the young ego can and will do...... so it is expected to hear this kind of remark. I don't mind. :p (even though it poked at me a bit, first)

Sammy
27th October 2012, 19:14
If you are hoping to transcend or get rid of or otherwise escape your ego - GL

It is possible to transcend your ego, which is what I have been talking about in this thread.



I am faced with a dilemma here. Do I respond (which would be coming from a place within my ego by the way) or do I drop it?

I like the challenge of response and so I will attempt to take it on gracefully and be an example of a relatively healthy ego.

To discuss this at all requires one takes a perspective. One cannot take a perspective without there also being one or more alternate perspectives. A being that perceives itself in any dynamic that involves form (thus then produces by its very nature, perspective) must then deal with and from their perspective which then suggests a perceived degree of separation. It is impossible to completely transcend this unless some of my teachers are right - "when a Spirit Being absorbs back into Source."

If any Spirit Being is able to completely and fully transcend their view that they have autonomy over something and not the whole, then they become that whole but then no longer can there be anything else as they are the all that is (at that point). My point is that since I recognize this fact, I then must accept that no matter how enlightened I may ever become, until the day comes where I say (or some being that can say for me says) I am ready to be absorbed back into Source, I am and always will have some degree of "self" which I and others have to deal with. I accept this condition. Through my acceptance, I conclude that it may best be wisest I seek to manifest a healthy "self" or "ego" or whatever word someone might feel more comfortable using.

Perhaps it was insane to take this first step into this realm, but that doesn't mean I have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Perhaps I may end up proven wrong and that no matter what, to incarnate for any reason in any realm of form is foolish, but I would likely end up being that last one in the realm as I would always want to be of service to others in their experience. That is what makes me happiest. I see it as selfish in a selfless way. I just like to be honest about it.

Love to All, Chester

Carmody
27th October 2012, 19:28
The first step is that you both move into the 'gap', and turn and face the change.

Then the ego (as we are wont to call it), recognized... will pout, and wail, and cry, and do basically...anything and everything. As the ego is in charge of or is fundamentally connected to your entire awareness, in all ways, in and out of the human body. In the end, it finally lets go..if you are both stubborn enough..and have enough capacity for surrender. It will be slightly different for everyone. But...essentially the same.

The reality is...that we will tend to take in reams of data and take decades of time, to do what is essentially ....a very simple thing.

It can be sped up, in many cases... by nearly dying -and similar things. (those moments of crystalline clarity, as they call them)

Arrowwind
31st October 2012, 16:02
When the ego is in alignmnent with the higher self, doing the bidding of the higher self, then the ego is no longer a problem. It will always work to manefest the intent of the higher self when in alignment (and for some when in communications actively with HS)... but the intent of the higher self is a convoluted path, designed to bring challenges and discovery... which can make the ego look very bad on some occassions.. for the higherself is not concerned with good or bad relative to our cultural definations... it is concerned with learning to master 3D reality. Hence you have many philosophies, many religions that say this and that is evil, when in fact it is not. Disconnected ego makes a mess for those of us who are committed to the leaning process. And if you are committed to your learning process and in contact with your HS there is no other authority you need to consider.

norman
9th November 2012, 12:05
Cracking thread, Reaver.


[ and you didn't even put it in the spirituality section :biggrin1: ]

F2h94gdk_zk

:first:

Lunesoleil
9th November 2012, 17:34
Ode to love

I'll think of you among the singing of the birds.
Lulled by your presence that captivates my imagination.
I need to drill the inexpressible mystery of my Genesis.
That comes to abort it in vain.
There is room for the song of love
Guardian of the temple of the unfathomable truth.
I approach the source once I abreuvais me.
In the silence of the reflection I surrender.
The power of fairies who surround me.
And the belief that nothing is such that everything is transformed.
Just believe and dream come true.
It is in the outpouring of my thoughts.
I hear in the distance this voice beg me.
Without being able to recognize it, it marvel.
Splendour on the original surface.
As confronted with memories of the past.
It captivates me a carrier mystery of faith.
I know how to hear it.
Prisoner of the senses in turmoil.
Recognition of a love of multiple faces.
Embroiled in unrecognizable ghosts.
I advance in the relentless fog.
Could a slow walk, I do surely.
Achieve this shadow of myself.
And reveal the magnificence of my light

© Lunesoleil (June 2010)(Juin 2010)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMU_F6rZP5Q


I love Snatam Kaur, a friend who fel my music discover this magical power not on the mind

Flash
9th November 2012, 17:44
Bonjour Lune Soleil

J'aime bien ton poème et cette musique.

Cependant, tu vas certainement te faire demander la traduction dans ce forum qui est plutôt anglophone, quoique nous soyons tous de provenance différentes (Brésil, Mexique, Hollande, France, Canada, Roumanie, Chine et j'en passe, d'ailleurs Reaver est mexicain), le forum est surtout en anglais. Mais j'aime bien que tu crées un peu de remous sur la conscience des cultures, surtout pour tous ces anglophones américains lol :p .

Mon deuxième commentaire ou plutôt une question, pourquoi ce magnifique poème dans un fil qui devrait traiter de l'inauthenticité de la spiritualité dans le monde alternatif. La tienne me semble plutôt authentique si on se fie au poème.

Merci de me lire et de me répondre plus tard, je présume, et surtout, bienvenue en tant que membre du forum

Flash

Lunesoleil
9th November 2012, 17:49
Thanks apreciate Flash

I have an automatic, you a translator not to read?

I changed and translated the poem in English, thank you for your help


You do not need to know Flash likes of Saint Augustine, here it is

"Love and do what you want.
If you shut you, shut up by love,
If you speak, speak out of love,
If you corrected corrected by love,
If you forgive, forgive for love.
IEA at the bottom of the root of love heart:
From this root, bad nothing can get out. »
Saint Augustin

Sammy
20th November 2012, 14:07
I have been presented examples of what is known as "immaculate conception" by more than one credible (to me) source. I cannot confirm if this possibility has actually occurred, but my sources have been reliable in other matters of similar nature. So in this specific case, I lean to my sources being accurate. I guess this means we both simply have an opinion and that it differs. I am old school about this. Anyways, great thread Bro. Chester
Care to share them?


Actually it is a genetic deviation from the female genetic code paradigm though the action of genes upon an ovum that a female becomes a male at the time of conception. We have been lied to since the beginning... the beginning of this round anyway. Out of woman's code man is born through the alteration of that code from an outside force. A genetic modification so to speak. An ovum is a seed. A sperm is a living genetic code modification potential...
Can you point towards works which elaborate on the idea? I suspect science can explain this, well at least to a degree that is.

As requested -

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienciareal/cienciareal28.htm


Amazon cultures were known to be able to breed without the use of a male. Because the human body is primarily androgynous, a separation of the sexes is not theoretically necessary for procreation. This contention about the Amazons is backed up by the fact that the zona pellucida (the reproductive body in the female which contains a sack) can be penetrated by a latent male protein within the inherited genetic structure of the female that the body thinks and treats like a sperm. This results in a virgin birth.

It could be argued that the Amazons were unbalanced in the direction of the female energies. Whether or not that is true is not the point. Their culture and the general goddess culture of that time period was supplanted by a patriarchal culture that has attempted to subjugate women to the most unbearable of conditions. The male forces established control. Morality was then generated by the power elite of that particular civilization.


Apologies it took me awhile to rediscover this reference. Love to You, Reaver... Chester