Your thoughts on free masons

[Pixie]

I recently met a free mason and I felt like I should not trust him and yet when I research about masons I don't find anything too bad... What do you think

[Moemers]

I think that no one can do anything to you unless you step out of love.

[Dale]

Hello,

I'd recommend reading the book "The Secret Teachings of All Ages (http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-All-Ages-Encyclopedic/dp/1605064882/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283472375&sr=8-2)," by Manly Palmer Hall. He was a 33rd degree Freemason as well as a brilliant spirit.

I have nothing against Freemasonry; I know several Masons and find them to be very intelligent and spiritual people. I'm not saying that all Masons are like this, however. I'm sure there are corrupt individuals in the organization, like anywhere else.

There is a thread on this forum addressing the issue directly (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1497-Freemasonry), started by a Freemason we have as a member on Avalon. It's quite interesting, as well, and would probably clear up a good many misconceptions.

-Cipher

[Pixie]

Thank you very much cypher :)

[tone3jaguar]

If he is 32 degree or lower he is probably just a good guy who is a member of a fraternal organization. If he is 33rd degree then look out.

[norman]

My thoughts on Freemasons, for you.

I know 2 Freemasons.

I know of many more and much 'higher' than the 2 I know.

I get a mental nausia whenever I meet either of the 2 freemasons I know. There is something fundamentally "corrupt" about their whole presence.

Whenever I have got into conversation with them about their being freemasons I get the same stock replies. They just "joined to do the best they could for their families and themselves".

When I look closely at the affairs of just one of them I see a trail of corrupt dealings going back beyond the time I've known him. All the way from snapping up cheap land that couldn't be built upon and then mysteriously COULD!.... be built upon, who was the planning officer at the local council?, yes you can guess, another or his beehive mates..... to..... getting himself and 2 of his 'children' extreemly well paid subcontractor work on huge money sink operations like the decomissioning of the Trawsfunydd neuclear Powerstation in North Wales ( particularly disgusting news for me personally because I was very heavily involved in the campaign/operation to get the place shut down in the first place ) [ and when I met his son and told him that, he laughed and bought me a pint ]

THe other freemason I know is very 'sheepish' about it with me and tries to avoid allowing it to come up as an issue with us in conversation.

I'm in no doubt at all that the sort of 'energy' and 'brotherliness' going on with freemasons is ( even at it lowest levels ) fully complicit with the greatest crimes and lies and corruption going on in the whole world. It not unlike becoming a member of a large political party excedpt that this one never actually goes through the pretence of trying to get elected and function "publicly".

I believe that the higher masons are so accustomed to being 'on the winning side' that they have confidence in their corruption that in infectious for the ones lower down who try it out gently at first and discover that it really 'works' and so they become more confident and convicted to the brotherhood, believing that it really is the all powerful seeing eye etc...etc... and nothing outside of the brotherhood can ever really 'touch' the affairs of the brothers, even when they blatantly break the rules of the land.

I pondered all of this for years and at one time i put together an audio CD project and tried to put into words my best alternative to the 'power' of the secrecy of the brotherhood. What I tried to single out was the simple fact that the power of the brotherhood really lies in the deeply personal relationship and comitment between them. It seems as if we, the rest of us, have to play by the stunted 'public' rules of the state while these brothers secretly only pretend to do so and actually carry on the real business of their lives in a personal and very non public relationship with each other.

My intention was to suggest that we, the rest of us, need to, well, I'll say it here just like I said it on the back of the CD in 2004.....


( after a quote from Vaclav Havel anda quote from Theodore Roszak )

I added a 'quote' from myself......:

"........We shouldn't believe in anything Public, Commercial or Political. I think we should all get personal and first set about solving the biggest crimes and dispelling the biggest lies of I time......."



ok, I think,and you did ask for thought here, that we, the rest of us, have to apply the same method they use to counteract what they do and possibly even round them up and take them out of circulation altogether. We have to use the "personal" principle and side step any and nearly all accountability to stupid made up rules that the makers of those rules don't even live by themselves.

I DO realise that THAT COULD be interperated as a Bloody Revolution. After all, that's sort of what the French Revolution was like really. I mean, when a crowd of people swarm down an avenue in a capitol city grabbing anyone and everyone that has ever played a part in their oppression, and sloughtering them without a 'public' trial, just purely on the basis that "WE all know they're guilty", that's suddenly playing the game by the samr kind of rules that the 'brotherhood' has been getting it's own way by. TIT for TAT mate!

err... sorry if that was more than you'd expected. Just thought I give you my thoughts.

[Fredkc]

If he is 32 degree or lower he is probably just a good guy who is a member of a fraternal organization. If he is 33rd degree then look out.
Thank you T3J.

As it happens the most intelligent, moral, and self-giving man I have met in this life, happened to have gone through 32 degree, and then dropped participation. He still carried on every one of the high ideals set forth in their credo, and never spoke of his acts, or his previous involvement.

He mentored people around him.
He helped people from other countries get to the US, for education, then employed them.
He was a tireless friend to his neighbors.
A tireless enemy to abusers of any kind.
A tireless educator, adviser and confessor to my friends.
He was my father (http://fredsitelive.com/personal/dad/).

On the day of his funeral, I never saw so many complete strangers, people he had helped and worked with, and mostly men openly weeping. I was envied for how lucky I had been, being his son, and told repeatedly there would never be another like my father.

It's 42 years later, and I know they weren't just saying it for me.

Organizations of all kinds can, and do bring out the faithful.

Fred

[bluestflame]

i hear ya fred , me great uncle was one

[One]

You don't need to look at individuals. You can't have secret societies with power and influence in a democracy. The potential for corruption is massive. Its as simple as 1+1=2 to be honest. I really can't see the difficulty here. Thats another thread though.

As far as trustworthiness goes. I'd say less than average. Joining would most likely be a self serving consideration in most cases I would think.

[Ixopoborn]

I have had contact with many Freemasons. A notable freemason is a member of this forum, Rimbaud. There is little doubt that Rimbaud is caring and honest. This is my clear impression from the way he writes. I like people like Rimbaud.

I agree though that the current structure of freemasonry is wrong and is in need of reform. Systematically approved secrecy is, in general, unnecessary, harmful and bad.

Freemasonry at its best is populated by people like Rimbaud and Fred's father. Most freemasons having nothing close to their integrity and good behaviour.

I understand resistance to abandoning the vail of secrecy which distinguishes freemasonry. In my determined opinion, the secrecy aspect should be dumped as soon as possible or else Freemasony will be left without any worthwhile role or good thinking members in the future.

Sorry Rimbaud if this upsets you. I mean no upset. The so called 4th density existence that we are being drawn towards will have no place for secrecy. Freemasonry must decide to drop this aspect of it's culture if it wants to survive.

[Teakai]

If he is 32 degree or lower he is probably just a good guy who is a member of a fraternal organization. If he is 33rd degree then look out.

I agree, tone3jaguar.

They might make a jolly good brother, but a bloody awful human being.
If you're not one of us, you're nothing.

[MariaDine]

Those one chose a path or those the path choses you ?! :)
...that sound awful...Ehehehhe !

[MariaDine]

Dear Pixie ! :) ...never mind all what is said here. Follow your heart.

These encounters happen for a reason. Must of us have them all the time. This «things« come to us because we have to question what is «presented» to us. Like homework. We have to explore, question..and come to our own conclusions. Don't be afraid ....of anything. Free mansons, templars, rosecrucians...etc
Ask youself... Why do I need »this» ?...Why have I need to find out side of myself , validation ,assurrance , .............that I am on the right track?

It?s not a silly question.

But NO ONE is going to the homework for you. Freedom of choice. Chose wisely.

Namaste
MD


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKOckpO1WA8

[Kulapops]

I think they should all be free... I'm not paying for a single one of them...

[Zook]

My thoughts on Freemasons, for you.
I know 2 Freemasons.
I know of many more and much 'higher' than the 2 I know.
I get a mental nausia whenever I meet either of the 2 freemasons I know. There is something fundamentally "corrupt" about their whole presence.
Whenever I have got into conversation with them about their being freemasons I get the same stock replies. They just "joined to do the best they could for their families and themselves".
[...]


A telling tale of two masons. I agree for the most part, Norman. IMO, a fraternal organization should be a free association of like-interested individuals. If those interests are not sinister, then there is no harm. But if those interests extend into control of the clergy, the polity, or the laity - and human nature invariably brings about such extensions - then what fraternal organizations really represent are vehicles for fascist insurrection.

That being said, I'm being visited by cat 1 Hurricane Earl as I type. Power may go off at any time. Satellite imagery of Earl provides the perfect context for my own views on human organization (fraternal and otherwise). Think of a calm sea. Now think of eddies in the calm sea. Now think of a giant whirlpool spinning the sea. My point is this. A calm sea is beautiful
in itself, but eventually the eyes crave for something different, something that stirs the calm sea. Enter eddies. Eddies give sprite to the calm sea. And when the eddies dissipate, the calm sea soothes our eyes again. Now suppose the eddies don't dissipate but, rather, superimpose. And later still, the superimpositions themselves superimpose, and still again ... We now have a whirlpool. Plant the satellite image of Hurricane Earl in your mind (I realize that it's a wind vortex, but we can apply it to a water vortex as well; here, I'm guessing that most of you have read Edgar Allan Poe's 'Descent into The Maelstrom').

But here's my point, calm seas (representing individuals) are nondestructive; reversible eddies (representing small groups) are nondestructive; irreversible eddies are vectored towards the formation of whirlpools, and these (representing large groups) are destructive.

In short, my argument is an argument of scale. Human nature does not permit nondestructive human organization beyond a threshold group size. This threshold size is usually quite small, perhaps smaller than that which can fit in a pub. Certainly, freemasonry, being an international brotherhood is well beyond the nondestructive threshold. In short, freemasonry is necessarily destructive.

Anyways, my preliminary thoughts on the matter. More after Hurricane Earl passes through.

Cheers
Uncle Zook

[Kulapops]

Eddie's a freemason ? :eek:

I'd never have guessed...

[Humble Janitor]

I don't know enough masons to make a judgment. I've always believed they were guys in funny hats that liked to get together to drink beer and play pool.

Only until I found this site did I learn about the influence of the higher-level masons on politics and societies around the world.

[Swami]

We must be getting CLOSE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvSemVgF28

[Zook]

Hi Humble J,


I don't know enough masons to make a judgment. I've always believed they were guys in funny hats that liked to get together to drink beer and play pool.

Only until I found this site did I learn about the influence of the higher-level masons on politics and societies around the world.

Well, I've read enough about 'em to make a judgment. :ranger:

I'd like to lock 'em up :lock1:; throw away the key; give 'em a cookie 'n a cup of water on a daily basis, each.

I'm just sayin'.

[Lost Soul]

If he is 32 degree or lower he is probably just a good guy who is a member of a fraternal organization. If he is 33rd degree then look out.

Concur. Anyone who is 32nd degree or lower is in ignorance of what happens at higher levels. These lesser masons are the front men who put a good face onto the face of masonry.

[Rimbaud]

I have had contact with many Freemasons. A notable freemason is a member of this forum, Rimbaud. There is little doubt that Rimbaud is caring and honest. This is my clear impression from the way he writes. I like people like Rimbaud.

I agree though that the current structure of freemasonry is wrong and is in need of reform. Systematically approved secrecy is, in general, unnecessary, harmful and bad.

Freemasonry at its best is populated by people like Rimbaud and Fred's father. Most freemasons having nothing close to their integrity and good behaviour.

I understand resistance to abandoning the vail of secrecy which distinguishes freemasonry. In my determined opinion, the secrecy aspect should be dumped as soon as possible or else Freemasony will be left without any worthwhile role or good thinking members in the future.

Sorry Rimbaud if this upsets you. I mean no upset. The so called 4th density existence that we are being drawn towards will have no place for secrecy. Freemasonry must decide to drop this aspect of it's culture if it wants to survive.

Not at all Ixopoborn...In fact I totally agree with you; the best way to remove fear and mistrust is to be completely open and honest. I'm working towards that as are many of the younger current or ex Grand Masters of the Fellow Craft. Believe me that we loathe being mistrusted and feared...It's a sign of the times I'm afraid and I'm sure that there are many ultra high ranking Masons reading these comments right now...I know most of them especially in the UK and France..it's hard if not impossible to convince the converted..but generally speaking they are good blokes.

Peace my friends

Rimbaud

[Rimbaud]

Concur. Anyone who is 32nd degree or lower is in ignorance of what happens at higher levels. These lesser masons are the front men who put a good face onto the face of masonry.

That rules me out then sadly :-(

[Strat]

I would advise just treating him as any other man. Simple as that. I've researched free masonry and I can see that the ceremonies are strange but whatever. The fact of the matter is I'll bet there is an extremely high probability that most free masons are regular people and aren't plotting to do you harm.

Just treat him as you would anyone else. If you feel threatened then stay away, as you would anyone else.

[Zook]

I would advise just treating him as any other man. Simple as that. I've researched free masonry and I can see that the ceremonies are strange but whatever. The fact of the matter is I'll bet there is an extremely high probability that most free masons are regular people and aren't plotting to do you harm.

Just treat him as you would anyone else. If you feel threatened then stay away, as you would anyone else.

Better yet, find a building in your area that has the freely masonic symbol hovering over its front entrance, you know, gymnasium, auditorium, videtorium, velodrome, etc. In the dark of night and anywhere on the path leading to the masonic meeting mouth, dig a trench about yay wide, yay long, yay deep, and say "yee hah!!" loud enough so that no one can hear. Cover your newly excavated yay-cubed in volume cavity with a piece of canvass painted to look like a generic slab of sidewalk (you can usually find these on the walls of your local art gallery).

Go home. Kiss the wife. Catch up on some Project Avalon Forum articles. Bring the dog in; put the cat out (preferably in teh neighbor's yard); mix yourself a mug of hot chocolate. Kiss the wife. Trade your peepers for the pineal eye and watch the sheeple run the chase steeple.

When morning breaks, kiss the wife, make her breakfast, take a shower, put your hunting hat on, check the chambers in your rifle. Then open the back door and let your sound hound do the rest. If you trained his ears properly, he will lead you to the hole of squeals. Along the way, try and collect friends, colleagues, fellow municipalites, oh, and at least one Japanese tourist. There's always safety in numbers.

Make sure you take your cell phone with you. Remember, the rifle is just for intimidation. You'll need to call in the pest control people. They have the proper tools to handle wild and free trapped masons.

[Carrera]

We must be getting CLOSE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvSemVgF28

I watched this, and what came to mind, was a good start, like now they are being revealed.... But in the end it seemed like almost propaganda FOR the masons. They were totally excused, and any who think otherwise, almost ridiculed. I'm sure most who start their "journey" as a Mason, in the lower degrees does so with good intentions. And some might all the way, but some look for more power and might become more corrupted. The power which they may have, the higher degree they have. This I say without any inside information, but there is much info out there that suggest otherwise. I dont think it's all conspiracy "theories", but facts.

This video show me an "last" attempt to defend themselves. The end of the video, makes me feel uncomfortable, as I feel the lies.

[sjkted]

Here's my take on freemasonry, and this is without the conspiracy parts of 33 degree and higher which have merit, but are not needed for an understanding. My take is not to hate the player but to hate the game. For example, doctors, politicians, and policemen are players in a corrupt system, but that doesn't mean that all of them are bad people.

Here's my gripe with freemasonry as a whole. Some basic public facts are that freemasonry is an international organization, has a large membership of people who work in high-level leadership positions such as police chiefs, judges, firemen, politicians, and lawyers. These people are meant to serve as the guardians of our legal and justice system.

We know that freemasons have special signs to identify each other and they agree as part of their basic oath to not convict a fellow freemason. So, what happens when a freemason (especially a high-ranking one) commits a crime.

First, he should be arrested. Then, he should be taken to jail and charged with a crime. Then, he should be prosecuted by the district attorney. Then, he should be judged by a judge and possibly a jury.

Normally, justice works in these scenarios, with the exception of high profile people like O.J. who can buy their way out with public opinion and the best legal team money can buy.

But, most of these high-level public positions are held by freemasons. If a freemason was arrested, the police chief could arrange to drop the charges. Or, if he was charged, the district attorney could choose not to prosecute or put up a poor case that would be easily knocked down by an A-level legal team. Or, the judge could decide not to prosecute a fellow freemason. When you look at how many of these people publicly admit to being freemasons, it's not a theoretical consideration.

So, you have people who have taking conflicting oaths: to protect the country, the constitution, the honor of their office, etc. And they have also vowed to protect fellow freemasons.

One could ask which one they choose to honor, but the results are quite obvious based on the world events and massive covert corruption that exists. If these people chose to honor the oath to their office, heads would be rolling and the corruption would be removed.

In conclusion, freemasonry creates a super-sovereign organization that is not under the jurisdiction of any laws. And it's top-level members are exempt for any prosecution for the crimes they frequently commit. How could anyone see this as being a good thing?

--sjkted

[rgray222]

Free Mason's, Iluminati, Builderberger or any other name you want to call them it is up to us to force change, change is not put upon us by others it is accepted by us when we do not question! Question all and bring it into the light. Do not think others manipulate or control us!

THE URGENT NEED FOR DISCLOSURE
Can you only imagine if we had the following:

Consider: A technology which enables energy generation from the so-called zero point field and which enables every home, business, factory and vehicle to have its own source of power -without an external fuel source. Ever. No need for oil, gas, coal, nuclear plants or the internal combustion engine. And no pollution. Period.

Consider: A technology using electro-gravitic (magnetic) devices which allows for above surface transportation - no more roadways to cover fertile farmland since transportation could take place totally above the surface.

Now you will probably find this hard to believe but we have had this type of technology since the 50's.
But in the 1950s, oil was plentiful, nobody worried too much about pollution, global warming was not the faintest concern and the powers that be just wanted stability . The status quo. And besides, why risk the tectonic changes related to such a disclosure? Let a later generation take care of it. Well that generation is now here, problems on our planet are immense and getting larger everyday! Disclosure is almost central to the continued existence of mankind!

Covert reverse-engineering projects have resulted in huge quantum leaps forward in technologies which, once applied to military systems, could be a real threat to ET s which may be here peacefully. The attempts to rapidly militarize space is likely a result of a myopic, militaristic and paranoid view of extraterrestrial projects and intentions. If left unchecked, it can only result in catastrophe.

Indeed this group, no matter how well-intentioned, is in urgent need of exposure so that global statesmen with a new perspective can intercede in this situation. While there no evidence that the ET civilizations are at all hostile, it is also clear that it is unlikely that they will allow unfettered and growing interference with their operations. Self-defense is likely a universal quality. And while tremendous restraint has been shown by the ET s thus far, might there be a ‘cosmic trip wire' if human covert technologies begin to reach parity and we are using such advanced technologies in a bellicose fashion? The prospect is sobering.

We need our International Statesmen involved with so vast a problem. But if access is denied -and the subject remains undisclosed and off the global radar screen - we are left with the unelected few to decide our fate and act on our behalf. This must change, and soon.

In the final analysis, while the changes attendant such a disclosure related to UFOs and ET s would be massive and profoundly impact virtually every aspect of life on earth, it is still the right thing to do. Secrecy has taken on a life of its own - it is a growing cancer which needs to be cured before it destroys the life of earth and all who dwell on her.

The reasons for secrecy are clear: global power, economic and technological control, geo-political status quo, the fear of scandal surrounding the exposure of such projects and their behavior and so forth.In the early days the need for secrecy are almost understandable but 60 years later the need for disclosure far outstrips the need for secrecy!

But the one thing more dangerous than disclosure is continued secrecy. The promising relationship between humanity and people from other planets is being militarized and strained by failed thinking and failed programs run completely in secret. Even those that currently hold this technology in secret are beginning to see the light. Power means nothing if you are not here to wield it! In my previous post you see that I have attempted to layout how the disclosure has already started, but now it needs to start bubbling to the surface at a much more rapid pace.

The vast majority of the power economic, political and otherwise is with America, Western Europe and Japan but that only represents a little over 10% of the population of Planet Earth so the powers that be are scared to death of putting all peoples on this globe on an equal footing. This is immoral, unethical and wrong on so many levels that it must change and it must change now!

As daunting as disclosure may be, with all its potential for short-term instability and change, continued secrecy means that we will destroy the earth through our folly and greed. The future of humanity, which has been delayed and hijacked for the past 50 years, cannot be hijacked for 50 more. For we do not have 50 more years - the earth's ecosystem will collapse before then.
http://www.educatinghumanity.com

[noxon medem]

- guess it is okay, if they are realy free.

[Rimbaud]

Better yet, find a building in your area that has the freely masonic symbol hovering over its front entrance, you know, gymnasium, auditorium, videtorium, velodrome, etc. In the dark of night and anywhere on the path leading to the masonic meeting mouth, dig a trench about yay wide, yay long, yay deep, and say "yee hah!!" loud enough so that no one can hear. Cover your newly excavated yay-cubed in volume cavity with a piece of canvass painted to look like a generic slab of sidewalk (you can usually find these on the walls of your local art gallery).

Go home. Kiss the wife. Catch up on some Project Avalon Forum articles. Bring the dog in; put the cat out (preferably in teh neighbor's yard); mix yourself a mug of hot chocolate. Kiss the wife. Trade your peepers for the pineal eye and watch the sheeple run the chase steeple.

When morning breaks, kiss the wife, make her breakfast, take a shower, put your hunting hat on, check the chambers in your rifle. Then open the back door and let your sound hound do the rest. If you trained his ears properly, he will lead you to the hole of squeals. Along the way, try and collect friends, colleagues, fellow municipalites, oh, and at least one Japanese tourist. There's always safety in numbers.

Make sure you take your cell phone with you. Remember, the rifle is just for intimidation. You'll need to call in the pest control people. They have the proper tools to handle wild and free trapped masons.

Thank you for your comments,

Oh boy..what more can I say? I'm at a complete loss as to comment further..I'm sorry not to have assisted your research Zookumar

Rimbaud

[Zook]

Bonjour Rimbaud,


Thank you for your comments,
Oh boy..what more can I say? I'm at a complete loss as to comment further..I'm sorry not to have assisted your research Zookumar
Rimbaud

I was having a little fun at the expense of the freemasons, true. Nothing of significance was directed at the lower masons; though I won't pretend that nothing was directed. I realize that most masons join simply for brotherhood; but would we have the same ho-hum reaction to those similarly connected with, say, the mafia; you know, low end mafioso and/or sympathizers and/or associates? I think not. So what gives freemasons of any degree, a free pass from external judgment? I guess that's more or less my perspective. Of course, this is more than an intellectual exercise for me; after all, the symbolism (and influence) of freemasonry is ubiquitous in our society; and very little of it is positive, IMHO.

Mind you, perhaps it's me who needs a lesson in tolerance. Then again, perhaps it's me who's asking the hard questions, e.g. why do the lower masons stand around and do virtually nothing when confronted with the crimes of the upper masons? Is it a club of brothers in free association? Or a kennel with top-down obedience?

From what I have read, I'm just not sure this world is made better by freemasonry or any of its invidious institutions. Nor am I sold on the proposition that men enter into their own subjugation freely (unless for perverse reasons, e.g. dominatrix). My best guess is that freemasonry is just another form of the pyramid power structure (which uses many forms to control men).

If I'm wrong, I'll have learned something and you'll have taught me. And that's always a plus. So, please, Rimbaud, I welcome your own thoughts on freemasonry. Btw, I, like yourself, speak frankly. So please don't be offended by anything I write. If I sometimes sound offensive, it is from a point of abject ignorance; not from a point of intention.
:boxing:

[East Sun]

Secret societies are by their nature Prejudiced and have their agenda which rules out others. Masons have a history of being prejudiced, which is a selfish manipulating process in itself.
I was invited to check out the masons but refused. Don't like groups who have hierarchies and levels.
Be free as much as possible as an individual is my motto.

[tazjet]

I think that no one can do anything to you unless you step out of love.

This is the quinessential reply. In life there are only two primal motivations. Love or fear. Whatever is positive and worthwhile is founded in Love, hope, optimism.

Whatever is negative is founded in Fear, like hate, anger, jealousy etc.

Where any organisation whatever spiritual objectives it aspires to, uses secrecy and initiations to grade and exclude others from knowledge of it's teachings you can only conclude that there is something based in fear or manipulation.

Religion of any type often becomes manipulated by an inner priesthood who seek power and control over others. that is not to say that those who join a movement are themselves sinister people. Indeed people who join any religious following are usually seekers looking for answers, but they are also vulnerable to suggestion.

Sadly many people subscribe to religious followings not in a quest for something wholesome, but rather so they can belong to a following.

I give organised religion a wide berth.

[Rimbaud]

Hi Humble J,



Well, I've read enough about 'em to make a judgment. :ranger:

I'd like to lock 'em up :lock1:; throw away the key; give 'em a cookie 'n a cup of water on a daily basis, each.

I'm just sayin'.

I refuse to allow you to pick a fight with me however much you want to do so. I can only comment that your views ; whilst being pertinent to this discussion, are deeply flawed and lack the base of knowledge that you purport to espouse within these pages. I suggest that if you want to enter a real discussion over an issue that obviously disturbs you; then do so in the correct manner. For example..post another thread?

Rimbaud

[Rimbaud]

Sorry, the above comments were directed towards Zookumar..not anyone else

Rimbaud

[MargueriteBee]

My dad is a 32 degree Mason and he doesn't know jack about spirituality.

[Celine]

LoL Ms Bee

That is not surprising...My opinion is that the spin about Masons, is way over exagerated.

[Lita]

Every male in my family except the youngest 1's were masons, don't know how far up my father went as I was never allowed to know anything .

My brother on the other hand he was the head of his lodge, he didn't say much either. he died suddenly a few years back, even though I don't know much when he died he belonged to the blue lodge.. that is normal I think.. but somebody from England had spoken to him about the Red lodge.. now I have o idea the levels..of when the blue and red belong, somebody here might be able to tell me...
When my brother died other family members wanted to grad all of his mason stuff.. my niece hid it so they didn't get it... but I haven't seen what there was..

I did hear that masons looked after family, well mine never did. ..self absorbed..

Lita

[FrankoL]

Due to my principles and personal character I am not a subject to any kind of organization. My opinion is that I should think for myself and for my reality. Group thinking it doesn’t help you and you are always “inside the box”, so to speak.

On the other hand, as I am very curious, I would love to be a part of freemasons. Just to see what is all that fuss about.

[Zook]

Bonjour Rimbaud,


I refuse to allow you to pick a fight with me however much you want to do so. I can only comment that your views ; whilst being pertinent to this discussion, are deeply flawed and lack the base of knowledge that you purport to espouse within these pages. I suggest that if you want to enter a real discussion over an issue that obviously disturbs you; then do so in the correct manner. For example..post another thread?
Rimbaud

Well ... what is there to say?

On October 3, in message #19, I wrote humorously, or so I thought, my piece about locking freemasons up and throwing away the key. Yeah, as if that is really practical or is what I spend my free time thinking about. Lock freemasons! Lock freemasons! Lock freemasons! Now, I'm no Mark Twain (tho' not from a lack of trying), but I hardly think that a simple crack like that warranted anythinmg serious in return.

So, Rimbaud, when you posted a very defensive message #29 a full week later on Oct. 10, after another failed attempt on my part at freemason satire (seems like the freemasons are not setup for satire), I quickly replied with message #30 to mollify your concerns and/or those of any other mason out there that may have been offended by my frank perspective. I even invited you to educate me about how incredibly wrong my perspective was.

So what was your first reply after my somewhat muted message #30? To seize the invitation and educate me? Hardly. You went all the way back to Oct. 3; took offense at my satire there; and proceeded to get rightly offended by said satire. You'll forgive me if I don't see equivalence between polite communication of knowledge and impolite communication of one's displeasure. You've now had several opportunities to impart your knowledge of freemasonry here in this thread. The thread practically begs for thoughts on free masons. So why this strange request for a separate thread? If I was in a less diplomatic mood, I would say that you weren't interested in a discussion of freemasonry. You sure haven't supplied any thoughts on freemasonry worthy of educating a putative ignoramus like myself. Just insinuation about my manners.

Almost a continuation of our very first encounter (e.g. the thread titled "Clarity in the terms Jew, Zionist, Judaism, Zionism"; messages #23, #24, #25). A thread where (a) you attempted to discuss the relationship between Jews and Arabs; (b) I attempted to steer you back to the topic at hand, e.g. clarity of terms; (c) you took great umbrage and tried to frame my request for topical integrity as an unreasonable abridgment of your freedom of speech. Yet we found harmony - or so I thought - soon afterward. You then took the opportunity to inquire about my opinion of the Macedonian impact on Greece. I replied that I was ignorant of the regional history but that if you wanted to discuss something specific, that you should take the lead and table your own opinion. And altho' I valued your interest enough to spend a whole night reading up on Macedonia-Greece (and I thank you for that, for now I know a lot more about that regional history); you did not likewise value my request enough to pose a proper starting discussion point on Macedonia-Greece.

Nothing from you on freemasonry.
Nothing from you on the clarity of terms Judaism, Zionism, etc.
Nothing from you on Macedonia-Greece.

Where I come from, you get three strikes before you're called out.

But I'm gonna bend the rules a bit in the interest of maintaining group harmony. I am willing to discuss any of those three things, even now, with you. But you have to allow me the full breadth of satire. I'm a very satirical person. I'm sure we can exchange great knowledge and wisdom if we don't take offense at the first opportunity, and save it, instead, for a last resort.

So let's [ctrl-alt-del] this cluttered cul-de-sac of negative emotions and reboot to a better friendship.

:tea:

[Ixopoborn]

Hi Humble J,



Well, I've read enough about 'em to make a judgment. :ranger:

I'd like to lock 'em up :lock1:; throw away the key; give 'em a cookie 'n a cup of water on a daily basis, each.

I'm just sayin'.
Dear Zooumar - I think your remedy is a little harsh to say the least given comments on this thread which establishes that such action would involve incarceration of many good people. The truth is not something so easily assessed and judged upon. There are some excellent aspects to freemasonry and some rather doubtful ones. Unfortunately, the jury is out on what corruption lies at the top or else there would be nothing to debate on this thread.

I have read and heard rumours of despicable corruption in parts of freemasonry whilst I know for a fact that the vast majority of freemasons are completely unaware of this.

The question I personally am no where near answering is whether the many good souls who are also freemasons have been morally hijacked in some way by the alleged despicable few? That there are many thousands of freemasons who are very good souls, I have no doubt at all.

In life, I like to see structures which are safe by design. Personally, I think freemasonry has a design flaw in its secrecy aspect. Unfortunately, secrecy facilitates corruption. Dedicated freemasons will tell you of the secrets having no commercial value at all and not knowing them until you reach certain stages emphasises the moral lessons imparted at each stage. This, I accept. However, the secrecy aspect is, in my opinion, the Achilles heel of freemasonry.

I say remove it and make secrecy a voluntary act for freemasons – allow freemasons to decide which parts of the ritual they keep secret from themselves but make it all publically available to those who have no interest in taking the moral journey through Masonic ritual. That might be an acceptable compromise for freemasons, freemasonry and society at large.

Rimbaud, who posts on this thread, is a freemason. I like Rimbaud and things for which he stands. Does that, Zookumar, mean that I am guilty by association and should also be locked up?

[Zook]

Hi Ixopoborn,


Dear Zooumar - I think your remedy is a little harsh to say the least ... [...] ... This, I accept. However, the secrecy aspect is, in my opinion, the Achilles heel of freemasonry.

I say remove it and make secrecy a voluntary act for freemasons – allow freemasons to decide which parts of the ritual they keep secret from themselves but make it all publically available to those who have no interest in taking the moral journey through Masonic ritual. That might be an acceptable compromise for freemasons, freemasonry and society at large.


Excellent point about secrecy being the Achilles Heel of freemasonry, tho' I might argue that maybe it's just a Big Stubby Toe. IMHO, the more important thing about freemasonry is not secrecy per se, rather, the influence of the masonic order over society at large.

FTR, I don't mind the existence of secret societies as long as they remain completely impotent. On the tail side of the coin, religions are organizational structures that have tremendous influence over society; yet I know of no major religion that is secretive and/or binds free individuals to oaths. To complete the thought, on the round edge of the coin, there is the structure of politics. Politicians - within any political jurisdiction - are largely a secretive club whose members have two mouths, one for the public, and one to communicate among themselves. Politicians are sworn in, e.g. bound to some oath or another. And politicians wield great power over society.

Secrecy. Oaths. Power.

Now which one of the three organizational situations above does freemasonry resemble: the head of the coin? The tail of the coin? Or the round edge of the coin? That's correct: the structure of freemasonry is virtually identical to the round edge of the coin, i.e. the structure of politics. Freemasons belong to a secretive order; they ascend up the order via a series of rituals, recommendations, and oaths; and they have tremendous influence over the engineering of society (in both senses of the word, e.g. draftsman and social).

To be sure, the rule of politicians (within the structure of politics) is that they are liars, with scant few exceptions to this rule. Perhaps the opposite is true for freemasonry; perhaps the rule of masons (within the structure of freemasonry) is honest men, with scant few exceptions to the rule. In math terms, the ratio (32/33) forms a rule, leaving the ratio (1/33) to form the exception. But even in the hypothetical case where all the corrupt men reside above the 32nd degree; the organizational structure necessarily binds the honest men of 32 degrees and below to corrupted rulers. The only freedom left for the icemen of the order, e.g. those members that exist below 32 degrees (our putative honest men) ... is to dissociate from the igloo. And from what I hear, many of them eventually do. We can be thankful for that.



Rimbaud, who posts on this thread, is a freemason. I like Rimbaud and things for which he stands. Does that, Zookumar, mean that I am guilty by association and should also be locked up?

If satire has the power to lock you up, by all means! And melt the key in a foundry!

:rolleyes:

ps: Secret clubs belong on treetops ... with newsprint hats, stuffed tigers and a sign that says "No girlz allowed!!'

... I'm just saying.

[FrankoL]

you guys are discussing around personal positions and actions. too much energy for nothing.

discussion around what is good, honest, bad or corrupt is senseless. what really matters is you and your interaction with things / persons. if one is positive within Freemasons than is OK. Why you have to understand why? it is not your game. people always like to discuss others business and not living theirs. in my opinion is big waste of time, experience.

At the end I will ask a provocative question, for instance what life/experience would you choose, if you have to: a experience when you have to kill - war situation or easy life where you have to learn love. I guess second.
Which is easy?

[morguana]

good points frankol, its how one uses their energy that matters, not the label one relates to. being a part of a group is natural human behaviour .....its what we do within these groups that is important
just my wee half pennys worth
m

[One]

No I think it is important to discuss such matters. If you happened to be a sheep that believed one of your flock was a wolf, you would feel the need to discuss the matter.

I'm not making allegory to the Masons here but simply attempting to show why some people would feel the necessity to debate such issues.

I'm sure nobody has any doubt that there are likely to be good people in the Masons. And i'm sure it is understood that your personal influence in any organisation is important. However, I do think discussing the overall consequences of the existence of such organisations is valid.

[Zook]

Hi FrankoL,


you guys are discussing around personal positions and actions. too much energy for nothing.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't follow the logic of what you are saying. The thread originator, Pixie, inquired about people's views on freemasons. She didn't ask that we manage our energy so it would appear to have contributed to something. When ideas/perspectives/personalities confront each other, there's going to be some wasted energy. That's an unavoidable aspect of human discourse. We are what we are and where we are, in Earthly density. We joke; we tease; we get angry; we appease. I'll chalk yours up as an attempt at appeasement (of those you perceive may be offended by the frankness of discourse).



discussion around what is good, honest, bad or corrupt is senseless. what really matters is you and your interaction with things / persons. if one is positive within Freemasons than is OK. Why you have to understand why? it is not your game. people always like to discuss others business and not living theirs. in my opinion is big waste of time, experience.


Whoa, Rocinante, whoa! Come by that, again ... are you saying that we on the banks of the River of Avalon should refrain from making judgments against the bad and corrupt?? Heap no laurels upon the good and honest?? Yeeeeeeesh.

I ask you, in all earnestness, what is the point of enlightenment if not to distinguish the wise man from the fool? And how do we make effective distinctions in the absence of informed judgment?

As to your point of "it's not your game/business" ... what Earth are we discussing here? The one with the blue and green, tucked inside white cotton? Let me illustrate my point with a metaphor. Consider yourself to be a single water molecule in a pot of water on a stove. When the heat is turned on and your fellow water molecules begin to get excited around you, is it possible for you to remain unexcited much longer? When the others start to boil and jump out of the pot; how long before you jump out of the pot yourself?

Question begs: are human units much different from molecular units in a pot?

When freemasonry starts appropriating the machinery of society to advance itself at the expense of the greater society, is it still no business of the greater society to ask questions ... you know, to poke its nose into the affairs of freemasonry?

Interconnectedness. We don't live in a vacuum, FrankoL. And when we are interconnected, we all have a stake in what happens to our neighbors; for it also happens to us in some fashion at some level. For the most part, we can navigate through this interconnectedness and still have many apparent freedoms and independencies. It's when we cease being vigilant against those that abuse the interconnectedness, that we begin to lose even the apparent freedoms and independencies. Indeed, this is happening right now, in real life, outside the Avalonian thought laboratory.



At the end I will ask a provocative question, for instance what life/experience would you choose, if you have to: a experience when you have to kill - war situation or easy life where you have to learn love. I guess second.
Which is easy?

Interesting question. But how does that inform our thread topic, namely, our thoughts on free masons? Remember, we're trying hard not to waste energy.

:boxing:

[Rozzy]

Freemasonry has its nose poked into everything everywhere, that being the case it is everybody's business.

Follow the money and you will find the Masons, big money means more Masons.

[Rimbaud]

Zookmuar, if you want me to apologise for misconstruing your zionist debate then I'm happy to do so..Perhaps I was not as informed as I thought I was..yet I must confess that I detest racism in any shape or form..Arab VS Jews are probably the most disgusting event of the 21st Centuary!..When most of us want to live in harmony, Israel continues to build their ghettoes in a revolting manner, whilst Hammas continues to espouse Terror I will never support either of you..Just keep away from my family please.

Rimbaud

[Rimbaud]

Dear Zooumar - I think your remedy is a little harsh to say the least given comments on this thread which establishes that such action would involve incarceration of many good people. The truth is not something so easily assessed and judged upon. There are some excellent aspects to freemasonry and some rather doubtful ones. Unfortunately, the jury is out on what corruption lies at the top or else there would be nothing to debate on this thread.

I have read and heard rumours of despicable corruption in parts of freemasonry whilst I know for a fact that the vast majority of freemasons are completely unaware of this.

The question I personally am no where near answering is whether the many good souls who are also freemasons have been morally hijacked in some way by the alleged despicable few? That there are many thousands of freemasons who are very good souls, I have no doubt at all.

In life, I like to see structures which are safe by design. Personally, I think freemasonry has a design flaw in its secrecy aspect. Unfortunately, secrecy facilitates corruption. Dedicated freemasons will tell you of the secrets having no commercial value at all and not knowing them until you reach certain stages emphasises the moral lessons imparted at each stage. This, I accept. However, the secrecy aspect is, in my opinion, the Achilles heel of freemasonry.

I say remove it and make secrecy a voluntary act for freemasons – allow freemasons to decide which parts of the ritual they keep secret from themselves but make it all publically available to those who have no interest in taking the moral journey through Masonic ritual. That might be an acceptable compromise for freemasons, freemasonry and society at large.

Rimbaud, who posts on this thread, is a freemason. I like Rimbaud and things for which he stands. Does that, Zookumar, mean that I am guilty by association and should also be locked up?

My dear Friend Ixopoborn,

I can't tell you enough how awesome that it was to watch you defending me recently online..it was a very brave move considering the abuse that you could have been subjected to recently. You're a brave Soul and I'm happy to call you a friend. From my part, I have never deigned to hurt anyone ever!. I hope that I never did anyway.

I am a Freemason..as you know very well. I stand up for pertinent questions as usual..but so long as they are on tack..I don't mind answering stuff..just not time after time.

God Bless to you all

Rimbaud

[Celine]

http://www.bilderberg.org/masons.htm

[Ross]

it was a very brave move considering the abuse that you could have been subjected to recently.


Any abuse, from anyone, you hit the report button.

Regards

Ross

[Rimbaud]

Any abuse, from anyone, you hit the report button.

Regards

Ross

Ross , None of the foregoing comments in any way referred towards your wife Celine..I was having a debate with Zookumar and Ixopoborn. I don't believe any of our conversations were out of control, nor did they include your wife. I was hoping to include Celine within these discussions as we're heading towards John Parslows "Poetry Corner" together..I want to mend bridges Ross!..I don't want to insult your wife and really want to be a good friend of Her and you.

Ross I'm so scared about saying anything online these days..I joined Avalon to make friends and not enemys. I'm so sorry Celine and Ross..I started on the wrong foot with you both..Can we start again? I would be happy if you were my friends.

(Andrew) RIMBAUD

[Richard]

with Mod Hat OFF




Ross , None of the foregoing comments in any way referred towards your wife Celine..I was having a debate with Zookumar and Ixopoborn. I don't believe any of our conversations were out of control, nor did they include your wife. I was hoping to include Celine within these discussions as we're heading towards John Parslows "Poetry Corner" together..I want to mend bridges Ross!..I don't want to insult your wife and really want to be a good friend of Her and you.

Ross I'm so scared about saying anything online these days..I joined Avalon to make friends and not enemys. I'm so sorry Celine and Ross..I started on the wrong foot with you both..Can we start again? I would be happy if you were my friends.

(Andrew) RIMBAUD

Rimbaud, Andrew and whoever else:
Since you seem to like to circumvent guidelines, in this one case I will as well and indulge your confusion.
You are one majorly confused individual or your are so schizophrenic one personality doesn't know what the other is doing.
Celine is my wife not Ross's and based on your comments on other forums you know this full well. So the charade above is pointless and stupid.
So you can save the platitudes as they are hollow and without and substance.
In your future posts please leave Celine's name out of it and keep to the topic of the thread and always remember We have no desire whatsoever to be "friends" with the likes of you.

Do us ALL a favor and DON'T Reply to this.

Richard

[Ross]

To clear the air...

Andrew, I was reminding you, that if you felt abuse was being tossed towards you, to hit the report button...that is all.

And to confirm what Richard has stated...I am not married...to anyone...never have been...but that could change at anytime:p

Regards

Ross

[Beth]

To clear the air...

Andrew, I was reminding you, that if you felt abuse was being tossed towards you, to hit the report button...that is all.

And to confirm what Richard has stated...I am not married...to anyone...never have been...but that could change at anytime:p

Regards

Ross

No Ross, I will not marry you!!!!!

[Zook]

Hi Rimbaud,


Ross , None of the foregoing comments in any way referred towards your wife Celine..I was having a debate with Zookumar and Ixopoborn. I don't believe any of our conversations were out of control, nor did they include your wife. I was hoping to include Celine within these discussions as we're heading towards John Parslows "Poetry Corner" together..I want to mend bridges Ross!..I don't want to insult your wife and really want to be a good friend of Her and you.

Ross I'm so scared about saying anything online these days..I joined Avalon to make friends and not enemys. I'm so sorry Celine and Ross..I started on the wrong foot with you both..Can we start again? I would be happy if you were my friends.
(Andrew) RIMBAUD

Listen, in light of Richard's post (message #32) above, I say that we all start over. I don't know you or your situation; and sometimes, not knowing, we tend to take liberties in conversation that we would not take otherwise. I said my piece about freemasons (not knowing when I wrote my first satire that you yourself were a freemason); then I got so focused on the intellectual defense of my position that perhaps I didn't see how that that may have caused you pain. I apologize unconditionally for that.

I think I would like to have a beer with you someday, Rimbaud. You and I, being of practically the same age, have seen this world evolve with approx. the same camera (tho' perhaps not the same lens and/or filters). It would be interesting to know your perspective of the world.

Fact is, I like all the individuals that have popped up in this thread, either by self-inclusion or allusion; and wouldn't want to see anyone in pain. So ... let me make a modest and humble suggestion.

Let's all step back; take a deep breath; and watch the following video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw3oxJvSRj0

[Ross]

3 cheers for zookumar...:cool:

[Pixie]

I thank you all for you input I think I have more than enough info I love you all very much xoxo

[shybastid]

I've actually been told by a mason that my independent thinking has been "observed" by others in Masonry..and that after evaluation, I would not be a good candidate for the organization. He told me that off record.. after a "few."

I question EVERYTHING..Which is why I'm here isn't it?

Which is nice..PFFFTTTT :high5:

I'd rather have the Rosecrusians tell me that..but.. I can live with it.
I'd like to learn more about those guys...(Rose guys)
Masons? Unless your at 13 or higher.. Your not going to teach me anything anyway.Why learn the secret handshake?

[RedeZra]

let's not pretend that masonries did not subvert monarchies


most members of peoples parliaments were masons from the beginning

wrestling political power from Europe's Kings n Queens


so masonry is governing our society

recruiting mason members from the vast network of masonry to key positions of power n influence in all departments n sciences in our western civilisation

bound by an oath to one another as an exclusive clique of invisibles sharing signs n shakes

to get ahead in this world together


most masons are content with this

and have no clue about the workings upstairs


he never will unless he can keep his mouth shut

[Celine]

he never will unless he can keep his mouth shut

I agree


A Mason who is talking..is probably not a mason anymore...

[Zook]

3 cheers for zookumar...:cool:

Thank you, Ross!!

(But I'm not marrying you either.)

:tea:

[John Parslow]

Hello Richard you can accept this note either with or without your MOD hat on.


Rimbaud, Andrew and whoever else:
Since you seem to like to circumvent guidelines, in this one case I will as well and indulge your confusion.
You are one majorly confused individual or your are so schizophrenic one personality doesn't know what the other is doing.
Celine is my wife not Ross's and based on your comments on other forums you know this full well. So the charade above is pointless and stupid.
So you can save the platitudes as they are hollow and without any substance.
In your future posts please leave Celine's name out of it and keep to the topic of the thread and always remember We have no desire whatsoever to be "friends" with the likes of you. Do us ALL a favor and DON'T Reply to this. Richard


Apropos the above response to my friend Andrew and whoever else: I could not help but notice that you seem to be a bit heavy-handed for a MOD and rather facetious by indulging his ‘confusion’ as you so impolitely put it!

Calling a fellow Avalonian member a majorly confused individual or schizophrenic surely goes against everything Avalon stands for, when I joined the Avalon forum I was happy that at last I had found a space albeit cyberspace where we could all share in friendly discussions with like-minded individuals. As for someone making a mistake about which wife belongs to whom this is surely just a simple error not surprising when we use avatar names then sign off with real names.

Reading this thread from top to bottom all I have been able to see is that Andrew has tried very hard to apologize for some very small mistake and for you to say that: “you can save the platitudes as they are hollow and without and substance. In your future posts please leave Celine's name out of it and keep to the topic of the thread and always remember We have no desire whatsoever to be "friends" with the likes of you.” In my personal view, this would hardly seem to be the comments of anyone involved with running a site like this and I can only tell you of my disappointment at the way this is going.

I for one have always found Rimbaud a very kind and caring man (Masonic or otherwise) and I do not like to see him or anyone else castigated on a public forum by a MOD who should really know better …

Love and peace to all. JP :cool:

[Celine]

you obviously are not aware of the entire situation John.


Perhaps Rimbaud doesnt share all with you.



Richard RARELY takes his MOD hat off

I for one am glad he did.

[Richard]

I use the term Mod Hat figuratively as I am not a "Mod", I am not a moderate person. In life I will prefer the sword to the pen more often than not. The mods here are excellent at what they do and I do my best to stay out of their way as a more moderate approach to problems is always preferable. I am only the designer and administrator of this forum and try to stay out of personal conflicts between users as it is the mods job.
They run the place and do so quite well imo
Your friend has on numerous occasions said or acted in strange and at times insulting ways. So my reaction was one of defense for my wife I will never be moderate in those instances.
There is more to the picture here than you are obviously aware of, or you are playing his game. I will not play. the game stops here.

In conclusion JP, if you care to carry this discussion further I ask that you do so in PM with me and spare pixies thread the off topic bs. Thanks

[John Parslow]

Celine my comments were directed entirely to Richard whom I now gather is your husband however I will answer your reply thus:

To state that I am obviously not aware of the entire situation implies that I am either too old or too stupid to read through a thread in it’s entirety and understand the content thereof. I think I am well educated enough to assimilate all that has been said by all parties yet still believe that Rimbaud is trying to offer an olive branch which has patently been thrust back in his face. I reiterate my thoughts that this is not the kind of treatment one would expect from people on the Avalon forum and disheartened by some of the previous postings castigating him.


Richard RARELY takes his MOD hat off I for one am glad he did

Surely an obvious response from a partner!

As to Andrew not sharing all with me; we are in constant contact via email so I can assure you that he is a very caring a loving person and does not warrant the treatment he has deserved here ...

John Parslow

[Celine]

Ummm John... you misinterpreted my words... if you feel that my statementr was an insult...though not sure how, i apologize.

But Andrews behavior issues are NOT only about this thread...

I ignore Andrew's attempts at reconciliation for my own very good reasons.

I dont "treat" him in anyother way but ignoring him..

his behavior here...and on others forums ..and the chat room have led me to not want to intereact with him.

Your strong need to defend him shows a very close relationship..

perhaps you left something on the bench at his "hotel" to?

Now we are both going to get a warning from the mods to "keep it on topic"

I apologize to Pixie and the other thread posters that I have fend emotions..but when John started saying "that means you think im to old or to stupid.."...lt compelled me to share my thoughts and feelings...as i NEVER meant i thought John was stupid or to old, this "extrapolation " of his is based on a one sided point of view

[Beth]

Closing thread at the request of the OP.