If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

[Midnight]

I just finished reading "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" There is a lot of wisdom expressed in the book, but I was a bit frustrated by the author stressing that only certain aspects of enlightenment could be achieved with the imput of a "master".

After reading the book, I googled Sogyal Rinpoche, and it appears that he has been involved in litigious matters involving students that he is alleged to have exploited sexually. This is an all too familiar story when it comes to buddhist gurus from the east coming to the west (is this a problem in the east as well?)

So does the fact that this author was probably using his highly respected position in his buddhist centers to get sex negate his message in his book? Maybe not, but it leaves me with a feeling that I have been fooled by a supposedly pious buddhist.

There is a buddhist saying, "If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him". I think this is telling us that we should be very careful when we listen to people who claim they have a monopoly on the essential truth.

Even if a message "resonates" for you, you should ask the question as to whether your mind is completely your own. Perhaps your mind is a completely independent entity, but are you 100% sure this is true. So my advice is to carefully observe your thinking.
You know who you really are. Make your thoughts and your behaviour consistent with this knowledge. Kill the buddha.

[OZ.]

Well first of all what does Buddha has to do with that ^^
Didn't the religion come after his life?
Did he wrote "The Tibetan Book of living and dying" ?

Do not throw the baby with the water.
Having said that, maybe with all respect you have to take you own advice; (quoted:we should be very careful when we listen to people who claim they have a monopoly on the essential truth.)

your deffinition of essential truth ?

For me if essential truth was in religious books, from the past, then this truth is just a word. And so THE truth can not fool anyone, if yes so your truth is just a word.

Truth is inside you, always be & always will be, and it's a good news. But if it has to do with "thoughts" then again just a word.

[The Arthen]

I never understood why some westerners would get fooled by areas of Eastern philosophy in the first place. If you feel that's wrong, then just go with it until you're proven wrong?

The "Eastern" seduction of "enlightenment and philosophy" has been used against many people many times already - yet there're still so many who go along with that "seduction", only to get pissed off later.

So who's fault is that? :)

[delfine]

I just finished reading "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" There is a lot of wisdom expressed in the book, but I was a bit frustrated by the author stressing that only certain aspects of enlightenment could be achieved with the imput of a "master".

After reading the book, I googled Sogyal Rinpoche, and it appears that he has been involved in litigious matters involving students that he is alleged to have exploited sexually. This is an all too familiar story when it comes to buddhist gurus from the east coming to the west (is this a problem in the east as well?)

So does the fact that this author was probably using his highly respected position in his buddhist centers to get sex negate his message in his book? Maybe not, but it leaves me with a feeling that I have been fooled by a supposedly pious buddhist.

There is a buddhist saying, "If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him". I think this is telling us that we should be very careful when we listen to people who claim they have a monopoly on the essential truth.

Even if a message "resonates" for you, you should ask the question as to whether your mind is completely your own. Perhaps your mind is a completely independent entity, but are you 100% sure this is true. So my advice is to carefully observe your thinking.
You know who you really are. Make your thoughts and your behaviour consistent with this knowledge. Kill the buddha.

The above quote means that if you get the notion that you´re enlightened, you should kill that notion.
Stricktly speaking your mind is not "your own" same as your body isn´t. Because who are you? To find out that there is no entity, that you can call "you", or "I" is the gist of enlightenment.

[bram]

A lot of this has to do with the tantric sexual practices, and a great many charletons (just google tantric sex) who are offering home made forms of yoga promising instantaneous enlightenment through numerous sexual practices. And remember, not everyone who is called Rinpoche is an enlightened being!

bottom line- trust yourfeelings, your body is seldom wrong on these matters. If he seems like a con-man, he probably is (Jimmy Saville).

[bram]

As for whether this is a problem in the east, I remeber not so long ago, a buddhist monk in Cambodia was charged with multiple counts of rape.

he was hiding in the ruins at Ankar Wat, then jumping out on female tourists and molesting them. Ego driven unconscious behaviour occurs wherever men with egos occur!

[OZ.]

The above quote means that if you get the notion that you´re enlightened, you should kill that notion.


I never stop learning, before being an Avalon member iv'e never argued with people about my experience, when i go within there is no "notion of being enlightend" these are just words for this experiense of oneself.
Put away the word "notion" and we have another meaning.

This is not about philosophy, if it help people to have a practical experience for themselves then it's great. But it seems that most remain mired in philosophy (words etc).

It's about feeling & i'll stop arguing this, even put words on it reduce the possibility, i want to be free every days and feel again & again this magic.
No strings attached, get it simple.

it's like i'm speaking with my mind, get caught in this game so often (this is the real war, inside). :)

OZ shut up please

[johnf]

This is my understanding of this phrase. There are many experiences that people have had down through the centuries that have been considered, the ultimate freedom, people who have had them often have a feeling of urgency to pass it it on. It seems that many have had the experience of seeing through the self on a deep enough level that there is no self to be found anymore, and people with an interest in liberation can see that there is something there ,and they start projecting thier own ideas of inadequacy or superiority on the "teacher", in order to build up an idea of an obtainable moment or object called liberation, enlightenment etc, where thereafter, they will never have any discomfort or difficulty, and above all will not have to look at anything negative about themselves anymore. If the person who is trying to pass on thier experience to others goes along with this deifying of themselves for whatever feeling of superiority or bliss or whatever that seems to come along with it, they will start to sink back into self, the sex abuse thing seems to be a common form of it but I think there are others, just the idea of a self realized being or guru is enough to create plenty of temptation to drag an uninspected self along from moment to moment.
I think that there are many who have developed healthy, and real habits of looking through the self in the present, in our time, and there is a trend to constantly repeat that they are not anyone special, and even explain to others how to deconsruct thier own ideas of them as teachers, or whatever the false idea of seperation is that the person is creating around the activity.
"Killing the Buddha" seems to be simply the seeing through and letting go of any idea and feeling of attainment that comes along with spiritual experience, because these things are obstacles to being present, and if held on to can develop into harmful behaviors.

John

[AOG]

There are many ways this message has been interpreted. Followers of Buddhism find it perplexing, and rightfully so, as it is completely antithetical to what their religion teaches. For instance: do not kill living creatures; something we surely can all agree to.

If the 'Buddha' represents enlightenment, then to find enlightenment is to end the journey. However, enlightenment cannot be a stationary destination, as such a thing denotes finality (or, in other words) death. The enlightenment of one must hold true to the universe by being a continuum of all things, and so it must never end.

'To kill the Buddha' then means to defeat a current state of being, to transition into another state, or, to be alive.

'To kill the Buddha' then means to challenge the veracity of every authority we've faced, to see if what is said holds true to our own journey and our own concepts of universal truths.

'To kill the Buddha' may also mean that we must not rely on anyone but our own selves to guide us through.

'To kill the Buddha' perhaps denotes the contradictory, contentional nature in this world, in that we are forced to strive to overcome adversity, and succeed through the failure of others.

'To kill the Buddha' is to overcome self-delusion and delusion that has been imposed upon us.

'To kill the Buddha' is something that I would not do if I were to meet with Buddha on my path. I would much prefer to talk to him.

[Heartsong]

If you find the Buddha, it is not the Buddha but a creation of your mind.

[Innocent Warrior]

To kill the Buddha is to shift the focus of your consciousness from outside yourself, to within, while travelling the path of enlightenment. Enlightenment is the end of suffering.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I'd always understood the adage to be

IF you find the Buddha on the path, kill him.

Note the 'if'. :) It's not like an instruction to go hunt him down!

And my interpretation had always been this one...
'To kill the Buddha' may also mean that we must not rely on anyone but our own selves to guide us through.In other words, don't fall for the trap of worshiping an idol — or an idea. Enlightenment is internal, and does not 'come from' an external source.

[greybeard]

Another quote which is attributed to The Buddha is "Put no head above your own"
That could well tie in with the OP question.

Aside from that absolutely everything you identify with must be released if you wish to to know "The Truth."
Another Buddhist concept as said by Eckhart Tolle is "No self, no problem"
The thought that there is an individual self, a doer, must be let go of if the state of Enlightenment is hoped for.
So along with personal baggage the though that "I am a Buddhist, or any other self identification must be let go of"

The clue is in the I am claim, followed by a qualification.
For example I could say, "I am a musician"----no that's not what I am, playing is a function.
Any attempt to define "me" is inaccurate--partial-- limiting and seems exclusive---separation in disguise.
So while one may follow the teaching of The Buddha--its not wise to assume an identity as following the Buddha-- a Buddhist.
Obviously that applies to following any path--hence the expression "Pathless path"
The finger pointing at the moon is not in itself the moon.
As Bill said "Enlightenment is internal"--its our True Self.
C

[ZooLife]

I came here for the blood......

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/093e6e7ab581e8167155ed00a03fe705/http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff235/stella_pearl/Halloween/Blood.png

:whip: ;)

(But seriously, the message tucked in this thread alludes to who we really are and always have been)

[Shezbeth]

'To kill the Buddha' is something that I would not do if I were to meet with Buddha on my path. I would much prefer to talk to him.

Awww, lookit you tryin' to be all righteously passive,... I'd have given a perfect 10 to this OP if not for the last statement.

I posit that in addition to the emphasis that has erstwhile been provided, that the only place on your path that you might find 'The Buddha' would be while peering into the mirror. It is not 'The Buddha' that one is killing, it is the self that perceives 'The Buddha'.

[ZooLife]

It is not 'The Buddha' that one is killing, it is the self that perceives 'The Buddha'.

:whoo:

Aye Matey!

Eye Matey!

I Matey!

(whoops, got carries away there, I blame in on the caffeine, it's kicking in...)

[Shezbeth]

One of my favorite phrases - of unknown contribution (to me) - is "Before enlightenment, one should chop wood and cultivate the fields; after enlightenment, one should chop wood and cultivate the fields,".

In addition to the literal interpretation of tending to what needs tending - sustenance and their living needs - there is a metaphoric/metaphysic correlation. The chopping of wood, the 'cutting away' applies to the reason, and the cultivation of the fields applies to the growth and/or further development of the body; not just the individual's body, but the bodies (and minds) of the young and developing! The individual who perceives themselves as having 'become' enlightened is stuck at 1/3rd of the equation, perceiving a completion of that which is truly only completed at the cessation of the body, that being the full expression of life. This is comparable to the guru who sits atop the mountain waiting for others to seek them out.

Personally, I doubt that Buddha ever referred to himself as enlightened; I find it more plausible that he was referred to as enlightened, and as he and many teachers will likewise respond he would then have denied the claim, and further asserted that everyone was/is.

In any case, there is still wood, and there are still fields. Thank you for this thread AOG; I had been contemplating something along those lines, and now I have no need. ^_^

[Skyhaven]

edit: better left unsaid.

[Hym]

Oh, my! What a hard life he had! Pampered by a father who taught him nothing of being a servant of others or of being a parent, so much so that he left his responsibilities as a new father and left his wife and child alone, forever. What a crippled life he had until he left the confines of his parents illusion and what an irresponsible parent, and a supremely self-serving "servant" of the people his father was. Is it any surprise that this original Buddhist became the ultimate self-absorbed man, leaving the human condition to teach others what the meaning of life is all about. Really?

I wonder how many would have a problem with being so pampered and sheltered, so imprisoned by the selfishness of a "kingly" parent for 29 years that they would leave and spend the rest of their life on such a journey? Few. Very few. The imprint of that many years of luxury was a permanent, visceral, tactile resource for a man who then had no problem taking his body and mind to the limits of experiences living in poverty and freedom of thought. I am not impressed. Try doing that having lived your life in another body, from an impoverished childhood, in a world of intense manipulation of body, mind, culture, and electromagnetic overstimulation….Buddha that, Brother!

I have no problem with Siddhartha. We'd most likely have laughed a lot, especially reading the hard-hitting poems I've made, making a mockery of the imagery of his path others have made, and then we'd cry about the manipulation those on those paths have been conned into following. Then, without hesitation, we'd get on with making the differences we make in our daily lives.

I have friends who identify themselves as Buddhists. Some live as monks in their Tibetan lineage, following the disciplines and constrictions they have accepted as some sort of freedom and penance for having screwed up in some past life. I appreciate that they were aware enough to know, without any verbal or written communications from me, when my son's mother was going thru bardo, and offering her help in the "process". However, She had already known where her path was leading and simply sent them a message of thanks, after she sent an audible song to me, alone in my kitchen, 4 days after leaving the body she occupied.

It is in just such circumstances that I challenge them by reminding them that it is not Tibet that should be freed, but that they should free China, after wallowing in the illusionary constriction of the monks life that they are so proud to live.
Stimulus is the tool of control, used by controllers to alter brain chemistry and to create the addiction of associative self-relief, whether or not it is in the satisfaction of fine foods or the daily pangs of religious hunger relieved by barley, soup, and prayers. Secrets kept secret have no honor in this path we are now all openly responsible for.
I have never associated the life of one man, knowing his past and twisted early life-as well as the liberations he earned along the way, with all of the words others associate with him.

[Shadowman]

This is similiar to the first two commandments

You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.

If you wish to Realize the Absolute
do not worship All That Is in any relative form
Do not worship any relative object or person appearing externally
Or any relative subjective entity appearing internally

Quieten the mind, then both objects and subject evanesce
And you will come to gnow the Kingdom is neither within nor without
neither in the past, nor the future
neither in time, nor space
words cannot contain it, or do it justice

It is the Greatest Gift, and your ultimate destiny
Blessings BE, in truth, you have always been Free

With Love
tim

[Guish]

One of my favorite phrases - of unknown contribution (to me) - is "Before enlightenment, one should chop wood and cultivate the fields; after enlightenment, one should chop wood and cultivate the fields,".

In addition to the literal interpretation of tending to what needs tending - sustenance and their living needs - there is a metaphoric/metaphysic correlation. The chopping of wood, the 'cutting away' applies to the reason, and the cultivation of the fields applies to the growth and/or further development of the body; not just the individual's body, but the bodies (and minds) of the young and developing! The individual who perceives themselves as having 'become' enlightened is stuck at 1/3rd of the equation, perceiving a completion of that which is truly only completed at the cessation of the body, that being the full expression of life. This is comparable to the guru who sits atop the mountain waiting for others to seek them out.

Personally, I doubt that Buddha ever referred to himself as enlightened; I find it more plausible that he was referred to as enlightened, and as he and many teachers will likewise respond he would then have denied the claim, and further asserted that everyone was/is.

In any case, there is still wood, and there are still fields. Thank you for this thread AOG; I had been contemplating something along those lines, and now I have no need. ^_^


I agree with this. Many will agree that enlightenment comes in stages. I usually look at the way a person expresses himself/ herself. The more detached a person is from the body, the calmer the person is. There is no pride in any argument. Every single word said has as objective to relieve others from pain. For me, this is budhahood. Anyway, Budha always said not to listen to me if my teaching don't sound right to you. He was always against blind faith. He wanted to share, people followed him because they wanted to.

[ulli]

http://www.freedomfeens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/a-novice-tibetan-buddhist-monk-plays-with-a-toy-gun.jpg

Train them from a young age.

Oh, and here is that eschatological laundry list from Sheldon Kopps's great book, If You Meet The Buddha On the Road, Kill Him....


This is it!
There are no hidden meanings.
You can’t get there from here and besides there’s no place else to go.
We are all already dying and we will be dead for a long time.
Nothing lasts.
There is no way of getting all you want.
You can’t have anything unless you let go of it.
You only get to keep what you give away.
There is no particular reason why you lost out on some things.
The world is not necessarily just. Being good often does not pay off and there is no compensation for misfortune.
You have a responsibility to do your best nonetheless.
It is a random universe to which we bring meaning.
You don’t really control anything.
You can’t make anyone love you.
No one is any stronger or any weaker than anyone else.
Everyone is, in his own way, vulnerable.
There are no great men.
If you have a hero look again: you have diminished yourself in some way.
Everyone lies, cheats, pretends (yes, you too, and most certainly I myself).
All evil is potential vitality in need of transformation.
All of you is worth something if you will only own it.
Progress is an illusion.
It can be displaced but never eradicated, as solutions breed new problems.
Yet it to necessary to keep on struggling toward solution.
Childhood is a nightmare.
But it is so very hard to be an on-your-own, take-care-of-yourself-cause-there-is-no-one-else-to-do-it-for-you grown-up.
Each of us is ultimately alone.
The most important things, each man must do for himself.
Love is not enough but it sure helps.
We have only ourselves, and one another. That may not be much, but that’s all there is.
How strange that so often it all seems worth it.
We must live within the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power, and partial knowledge.
All important decisions must be made on the basis of insufficient data.
Yet we are responsible for everything we do.
No excuses will be accepted.
You can run, but you can’t hide.
It is most important to run out of scapegoats.
We must learn the power of living with our helplessness.
The only victory lies in surrender to oneself.
All significant battles are fought within oneself.
You are free to do whatever you like. You need only face the consequences.
What at do you know … for sure … anyway?
Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again…

[Shadowman]

There are many ways this message has been interpreted. Followers of Buddhism find it perplexing, and rightfully so, as it is completely antithetical to what their religion teaches. For instance: do not kill living creatures; something we surely can all agree to.


'To kill the Buddha' is something that I would not do if I were to meet with Buddha on my path. I would much prefer to talk to him.


Hello AOG,


SEEING IS A STATE OF NO-MIND a state of no-thought, a state of pure awareness, when you
simply reflect that which is without any interference, any judgment, any like, any dislike; when you
don’t say a thing about it, you just function like a mirror.

That’s why Buddha says, ”If you want to see, see at once,” because if you start thinking you have
already missed. Seeing at once means don’t bring the mind in. Mind brings time, mind brings
future, mind brings past. Mind starts comparing whether it is right or wrong. It compares with the
old prejudices – with the Gita, with the Koran, with the Bible, with all your conditionings – or it starts
projecting itself into the future, into the world of desires: ”If I believe in this what am I going to attain?
What will be the achievement?” The moment the mind comes in it brings the whole world of the past
and the future. Suddenly you are in a turmoil. Memories are there, desires are there, and that which
was said to you is lost in the turmoil, in the noise.

Buddha says: See it right now! Not even a single moment’s thinking.

Thinking means missing.

Hence this has been Buddha’s constant practice: whenever a new seeker came to him asking
questions, inquiring about truth, God, after-life, he would always say, ”Wait, don’t be in a hurry. Just
sit by my side for at least two years not asking anything. If you really want to be answered, then
forget all your questions for two years. If you don’t want to be answered, then I am ready to answer
right now. But you are not ready to listen. Your very question is coming out of an inner insanity.
There are a thousand and one questions inside asking for attention. While I am answering your
question you will be preparing a new question to be asked; you won’t be listening to me. So if you
really want to be answered, wait for two years. Sit silently by my side not asking, simply watching
what is happening here.

”Much will transpire in these two years: you will see many people flowering. You will see all kinds
of people coming to me: the curious ones who come empty-handed and go empty-handed, the real
seekers who come empty-handed but never go empty-handed – they stay, they remain with me till
they are fulfilled. You will see the slow ones who take a very long long time, a gradual process,
and you will see the quick ones, the intelligent ones who understand immediately. Simply watch.
Walk with me from one village to another village, sit with me under this tree and that tree, imbibe
my spirit, feel my silence, look into my eyes, watch the way I walk, watch the way I sit. Simply watch
for two years and forget all your questions, don’t formulate any questions, and after two years, if you
can fulfil this condition, you will be allowed to ask and I will answer you. And I promise you that
whatsoever the question is it will be solved, whatsoever your thirst is it will be quenched.”

One great philosopher, Maulingaputta, had come, and he was asking great philosophical questions,
of course. Buddha listened – he was very famous, he was well-known all over the country. He had
not come alone, he had come with five hundred of his own disciples. They were sitting behind him.
Buddha listened patiently. For one hour he was asking this question and that – very complicated
questions, complex questions, subtle questions. Then he said, ”I have asked so many questions,
but you have not answered.” Buddha said, ”My way of answering is that you will have to wait for two
years with me These are the questions you have asked of many people. Have you asked them or
not before asking me?”

Maulingaputta said, ”That’s true. I have asked Mahavira and he immediately answered. I have
asked Sanjay Vilethiputta” – he was another famous teacher of those days-”and he immediately
answered. I have asked Ajit Keshkambli” – he was a very skeptical philosopher”and he was very
much interested in my questions. And I have asked so many others. We have been traveling all over
the country.”

Buddha said, ”You have asked so many people and they have all answered, but have you got the
answers? If you have got the answers, then why waste my time?”
Maulingaputta said, ”They have answered, but I have not got the answers yet. My questions remain
the same untouched. Their answers have not satisfied me.”
Then Buddha said, ”I can also answer right now as they have answered – it will not satisfy you either.
Now you have to decide. If you really are interested then risk two years’ time and sit silently by my
side.”

Maulingaputta waited for two years, but before he said, ”Yes, I am ready to wait,” one of Buddha’s
great disciples, Manjushri, started laughing. Maulingaputta said, ”Why is this man laughing like
mad?”

Buddha said, ”He is not mad – he is my first disciple who has become enlightened. And I know why
he is laughing – you can ask him yourself.”
Maulingaputta asked Manjushri, ”Why are you laughing?”

He said, ”I am laughing because this Gautam Buddha is tricky! He tricked me the same way.
Listening to what he is saying to you I remembered my own journey to him. Twenty years have
passed; suddenly I remembered – I had completely forgotten – that these were my questions too.
It is as if history is repeating itself. And it is strange that I came with five hundred disciples of my
own just as you have come, and I asked Buddha and the same reply was given to me: Wait for two
years.’ I waited for two years, and I am laughing! I would like to say this to you as a warning: if you
want to ask this man, ask right now, because after two years you will not ask and he will not answer.”

From "Walking in Zen, Sitting in Zen" by Osho


In Lak'ech
tim

[Grizz Griswold]

SEEING IS A STATE OF NO-MIND a state of no-thought, a state of pure awareness, when you
simply reflect that which is without any interference, any judgment, any like, any dislike; when you
don’t say a thing about it, you just function like a mirror.

That’s why Buddha says, ”If you want to see, see at once,” because if you start thinking you have
already missed. Seeing at once means don’t bring the mind in. Mind brings time, mind brings
future, mind brings past. Mind starts comparing whether it is right or wrong. It compares with the
old prejudices – with the Gita, with the Koran, with the Bible, with all your conditionings – or it starts
projecting itself into the future, into the world of desires: ”If I believe in this what am I going to attain?
What will be the achievement?” The moment the mind comes in it brings the whole world of the past
and the future. Suddenly you are in a turmoil. Memories are there, desires are there, and that which
was said to you is lost in the turmoil, in the noise.

Buddha says: See it right now! Not even a single moment’s thinking.

Thinking means missing.

Hence this has been Buddha’s constant practice: whenever a new seeker came to him asking
questions, inquiring about truth, God, after-life, he would always say, ”Wait, don’t be in a hurry. Just
sit by my side for at least two years not asking anything. If you really want to be answered, then
forget all your questions for two years. If you don’t want to be answered, then I am ready to answer
right now. But you are not ready to listen. Your very question is coming out of an inner insanity.
There are a thousand and one questions inside asking for attention. While I am answering your
question you will be preparing a new question to be asked; you won’t be listening to me. So if you
really want to be answered, wait for two years. Sit silently by my side not asking, simply watching
what is happening here.




Wonder what it is that Judges, compares and asks all the questions?
errr aaah just forget the question.... I'll take the two years. LOL

For years when asked, what do you think? by anyone.
What blurted out the mouth, half jokingly, was...I don't try to think, probably just hurt myself. Just realized how true that actually is. (Smiling)

Namaste and Love

bazz

[greybeard]

On the rare occasion I spent time with the enlightened---questions became redundant.
I was bursting with them until I was in their presence.

On reflection the questions were always about me and my life situation--or my search--not really about Truth.
I was looking to get fixed!!!!

There is an expression--maybe a quote--- "God is a jealous God"
I think that just means that, if you are serious, you have to be single minded in pursuit of Truth.
Everything else is self referential (about me)
C