what if the whole '2012' things are not *real* and just a mere wishful-thinking?

[niki]

what if that's the case? are you all ready?

indeed I do also wish that at least *something* would happen, especially on/around the often 'prophesied/predicted' date of December 21 2012.

but, what if these whole "2012" things are just clever & creative man's made-up hoax/scams/theories,
and/or not real and just our mere wishful-thinking/fantasy/escapism from everyday's harsh/mundane reality/real-life?

in fact, if NOTHING happens on or around that date, and the mundane "life/business goes as usual" with all humanity/society, that's what I'm afraid the most!

-regards from truth-seeker from Indonesia-
-Niki-

[Wind]

Let's wait and see. If nothing happens then life continues and we have to move on, it's simple as that.

[Sibyl]

what if that's the case? are you all ready?

indeed I do also wish that at least *something* would happen, especially on/around the often 'prophesied/predicted' date of December 21 2012.

but, what if these whole "2012" things are just clever & creative man's made-up hoax/scams/theories,
and/or not real and just our mere wishful-thinking/fantasy/escapism from everyday's harsh/mundane reality/real-life?

in fact, if NOTHING happens on or around that date, and the mundane "life/business goes as usual" with all humanity/society, that's what I'm afraid the most!

-regards from truth-seeker from Indonesia-
-Niki-
Same here. If nothing at all happens good or bad, it will to be a big eye opener for me. No longer will I listen to anymore BS on so-called ‘Truth’. I will consider myself done with searching. I’m not sorry that I spent so much money and time on learning what I’ve learned, but I’m afraid that I will not be able to listen to, nor trust another human being that has any of ‘The’ so-called answers.

I’ve seen many self appointed guru’s now putting a lot of effort into pushing that time date up just in case nothing happens so that they will be able to continue selling their BS. There will probably be some who have not been around very long who will still listen and continue to pay money for truth. But for me, no more.

[Kimberley]

When we all wake up on December 22nd all will still be in perfect order.

If you have not seen this thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52700-2012-Crossing-Over-the-best-movie-on-2012-yet-



Here is a movie to watch about what is happening...

2012-Crossing-Over-the-best-movie-on-2012-yet



hlfYHAV1i8w

[Cidersomerset]

21 st Dec 2012 has not registered with me since I became aware of the Mayan calender thing 4/5 years ago.
Echos of it had been in the background earlier without it registering.I remember David icke being asked about it
and he saw no resinance in it.There were mention of it in some of the Camelot interviews & radio shows.
Coast to Coast and some other radio shows were/are full of it, the history & Scyfi channels have made programmes about it...

Bob & Ion says nothing will happen. Its the shortest daylight day of the year here in the UK.
I'l get up go to work come back get on the forum and hope we are all still here !! cheers Steve...

Thats not to say many people are not spiritually waking up !!

[Rollo]

The change is inevitable, too much energy is directed to this date. I see better world for all of us but I agree we have to wait and see. No matter what we will adapt as usual. Love you all creative people:whistle:

[Ellisa]

I agree with you CS,and there is also the fact that when you are having your breakfast cup of tea my Dec 21 will be nearly over!

That is the trouble with date specific prophesy, it does not take the International Date Line into account!

[spiritguide]

2012 and beyond will be exactly what you make of it. You control your environment and everything in it.

:peace:

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

Honestly, I couldn´t care less.

Whatever happens, I´m ready.

If something great, completely extraordinary happens, I´m ready.

If things continue to go on like they are right now, I´m ready.

If things get much worse, I´m ready.

Whatever happens, I´m living a happy life right now and I intend to continue to do so.

Raf.

[Youniverse]

Will something "happen" for you? I already know something will change for me as it is, and has been doing. Since we all create our own reality from our beliefs, and we all "see" things in our own unique way, what I experience will be something different than you. But the difference for many will be a subtle one, varying in degrees. A lot depends on how firm our belief structures and expectations are regarding 2012 and beyond. Remember, the process works the exact opposite to what most of us have believed most of our lives. First comes the belief/thoughts/emotions, then comes the reality we experience. I could go on and on but I know for a fact I will not be fearful heading into Dec.21, at all. Only focussing on my positive vision for the future and right now.

[BrianEn]

Then my life will continue as it was before.

[indigopete]

Same here. If nothing at all happens good or bad, it will to be a big eye opener for me. No longer will I listen to anymore BS on so-called ‘Truth’. I will consider myself done with searching

Sibyl -

That actually wouldn't be a bad thing. If we all stopped being lead and started doing some leading ourselves, the world would be a better place.

Also, remember something else - when it comes to geological anthropological or even geopolitical earth changes, having a fixation about specific dates is just plain stupid. If you're lucky, major earth changes happen over a period of a few centuries. All you need to do is look at the cyclic markers we work with on a daily basis to see that . . .

Midday:
Significance=Very High, marks end of the sun's daily ascension
Does anything happen ? = No. It's very boring

Full Moon:
Significance = Very High, marks the end of a lunar cycle which controls the tides, and god knows how many other terrestrial cycles of activity
Does anything happen ? = Not unless you're looking and not if it's cloudy

Vernal (Spring) Equinox:
Significance: = Very high, marks the exact equilibrium point of the earth's passage through the plane of the ecliptic with the sun directly over the equator at noon UTC. Major practical impact on the planet as it indicates the start of summer in the Northern hemisphere)
Does anything happen ? = No. Very boring

Solar Maximum:
Significance: = Very High. Marks the period of sunspot cycles which effectively denote its electromagnetic "heartbeat". Is likely to be of critical importance to life on earth
Does anything happen ? = No. Very boring (You might notice it if you're a fruitfly)

So there you go - if that's how noticeable the markers are for earth change cycles that are right in our faces, don't expect any fireworks for a 26,000 year one. Big highways don't have sharp corners and we're probably just in the middle of a 300 year "corner" right now. Newtonian Physics, discovery of planetary motion, Electricity, Industrial Revolution, Communications Revolution, Television, Internet Quantum Theory . . . . and you're still waiting for a bang ?

Sorry, but you're smack in the middle of the biggest known evolutionary jump that ever happened on this planet as it is !

Just get your surfboard out and jump on :)

Pete

[white wizard]

The changed has already happened and if you really wanna see it then you need to

start paying attention to the people, animals and earth. The change has been so

subtle that unless you look at the big picture very care fully you will miss it and

people 30 years from know after the smoke clears will be like wow things were really

starting to change in 2010-2012, but no one connected all the dots till much later.

Relax enjoy the shift it will gain more traction in coming years and make itself very

known. If you are expecting some big event than you may be very disappointed,

because Gaia has chosen this to be a very smooth transition over time and if

you really start paying attention to the signs it will become obvious whats

occurred.

8KtciXkpYrc

here is a video that may help

[Davidallany]

what if that's the case? are you all ready?

indeed I do also wish that at least *something* would happen, especially on/around the often 'prophesied/predicted' date of December 21 2012.

but, what if these whole "2012" things are just clever & creative man's made-up hoax/scams/theories,
and/or not real and just our mere wishful-thinking/fantasy/escapism from everyday's harsh/mundane reality/real-life?

in fact, if NOTHING happens on or around that date, and the mundane "life/business goes as usual" with all humanity/society, that's what I'm afraid the most!

-regards from truth-seeker from Indonesia-
-Niki-
This question is a good motivator to elevate one's awareness by one's own efforts using all available methods. Instead of waiting for an outside force to manifest. All one has to do is to start the spiritual journey and continue studying, questioning and practicing. That have been said I believe that real change has been happening allover the world, and this sort of magnitude indicates an outside influnce on humanity.

[Carmen]

"Doubters" usually negate the subtle change of consciousness of the "Presence"of the present moment. Their minds are too full with "doubting" Change has been going on for quite some time now and will continue to. Change of weather, changes in environment, changes in consciousness. But, if we are not "present" it just flies right over our head!!

[Sibyl]

@ indigopete

Yes Pete, I think you are very right about not following anyone, and if this date is not any more interesting than the rest of the times we are living through, then I will have taken a somewhat giant leap forward when I choose to drop what I consider to be excess crap. It certainly won’t be the first time that realization has come after a good slap up the side the head with a two by four, but I do end up learning something...I think. ;)

[Ellisa]

Of course there will be change. Life on this planet is cyclical- as the ancient inhabitants found out many times as the ice approached and retreated, and in another example, disaster occurred when the dinosaurs and then the mammoths found their environments changed--- some think incredibly quickly, almost overnight.

Personally I believe things are changing physically, some of it in measurable ways. I am yet to be convinced that the changes will affect the world in a sort of flash of truth-- but that is just my belief. I do think we will survive, but I do also think we will need to adapt to some new things happening, maybe without our control, with regard, for instance, to weather, climate shift and the consequences of our reckless carbon production.

I don't however believe for one moment that the Maya's predictions are at the heart of the situation, and I notice that no-one has commented on my valid point regarding date-based prophesy. To allow the prophesy to manifest worldwide there should be 3 days allowed! The 20th, then 21st and finally the 22nd, depending on where you live!

.

[Arrowwind]

It seems that perhaps some folks are not understanding the astronomy of the 2012. I can only encourage you to watch this movie. It explains the Yugas according to Vedic writings better than most. The yuga teaching explains it much more clearly than the Mayan teaching in my opinion.

Regardless of what happens it is a calling to wake up to love, not to truth, not to new government, not to changed economics, not to ascension.... It is a calling to open your heart. Now if this calling is valid, based on the stars or calendar or the new age teacher or whatever direction you are getting your informaiton from, what do you have to loose.

Allow your heart to open, allow your mind to open. Thats all we really have to think about regarding this shift. Its really the only part that we can play if we actively want to grow anyway. There is nothing to loose and everything to gain though loving more and allowing yourself to enter into the higher esoteric levels of loving.

As far as I can tell this shift into more consciousness is being called forth from most of the major teachings.
All we really have to do is open our hearts and just be here now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfYHAV1i8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfYHAV1i8w)

[indigopete]

It seems that perhaps some folks are not understanding the astronomy of the 2012

@Arrowwind

Have you and idea how far away (and how big) the galactic centre is ??? :eek:

We've been lined up with it for years for all practical purposes. Everybody's hearts are already open. Many folk's have been since the dawn of man.

What about all the creativity all around you ? Maybe 2012 means that people who harp on about everybody needing to "open their hearts" will stop reading all the negative stuff in the media and taking a different view of what's actually already happening on the planet.

Something else that doesn't get mentioned a lot is that negativity is a good thing. It's an essential element of harmony because it represents the boundary between mutually disharmonious forms of expression, thereby driving them to combine with more harmonious ones. So don't expect everyone to suddenly start being nice to each other after 2012 unless it suits them :)

Here's some more stuff on that for perusal purposes . . . http://alignment2012.com/whatisga.htm. Also, this is a great visualisation of the galactic allignments . . . http://www.lunarplanner.com/HCmovies/HCmovie300Frame.html.

By the way, I speak as someone who read Jose Arguilles' "The Mayan Factor" 20 odd years ago and was blown away by it. It's just that I've had the intervening 20 years to put everything in a bit of perspective.

Pete

[markpierre]

what if that's the case? are you all ready?

indeed I do also wish that at least *something* would happen, especially on/around the often 'prophesied/predicted' date of December 21 2012.

but, what if these whole "2012" things are just clever & creative man's made-up hoax/scams/theories,
and/or not real and just our mere wishful-thinking/fantasy/escapism from everyday's harsh/mundane reality/real-life?

in fact, if NOTHING happens on or around that date, and the mundane "life/business goes as usual" with all humanity/society, that's what I'm afraid the most!

-regards from truth-seeker from Indonesia-
-Niki-

Incredible. How much evidence of change do you need? There is no more 'business as usual'. Better define sleeping again.

Buying in to fantasies has been the problem all along. Sort of have to take responsibility for that don't you?
How do you think buying in to more appealing fantasies will solve it?

[Sabrina]

Many tune into themselves or feel the change in energy and linear time already, and just know something is happening for the good, and intend this.

Others don't. I reckon we'll choose our own timeline on 21st Dec depending on what we focus our attention and heart on, and what our own energy frequency is by then. Free will and all of that :).

But can't say nothing's happening as the revelations of corruption and scandals in the political/financial/religious/medical and social care/education/agricultural worlds etc. over the last few years are pretty unprecedented, allowing the public to wake up and question some of the so called authority figures. Bring it on..

[Hervé]

Too many people are trying to squeeze the data into their theories, you know, like square pegs into round holes kind of things...

Just an example, that so-called alignment... when one draws a line between two points, well they are always aligned and therefore it's impossible to set a date to an alignment that's always there!

Here is a video that explains that the three point alignment galactic center-sun-earth occurs every year -- no fail! -- and explains why the Mayan settled for 2012 for the end of their clock... simply because it symbolizes a triple simultaneous RE_BIRTH!


4nkmSflIQFs


And this is where one can find the script (with pictures) that goes along with the above video: http://www.infinitelymystical.com/es...cked-2012.html (http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/why-maya-picked-2012.html)



The summary and most important picture:



http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/images-2012/izapa-1208pm-2012-screenshot-marked.jpg




The Triple Rebirth of the Sun

Now let's consider something else about the triple rebirth of the sun. As I touched on earlier, a triple rebirth of the sun happens year after year in the years around 2012. This is because the wobble of the earth is so slow that the conditions of the triple rebirth repeat almost exactly from one year to the next. (Eventually, the sun will be in the middle of the dark rift on the day after the winter solstice. Once that happens, there won't be another triple rebirth of the sun for about 26,000 years.) So of all these triple rebirths, why did the Maya pick the one that will happen in 2012? Is there something unique about that one? This leads us to the special configuration of the sacred tree.

The Sacred Tree
It just so happens that on December 21, 2012 at high noon, the sacred tree will be perfectly oriented in the sky over the Maya.

At high noon, the sacred tree will contain a large planetary configuration centered around the sun.

Now, I call this crossbar the crossbar of light since all these objects either reflect or give off light. The sun will be virtually exactly in the middle of Mars and Venus so this crossbar will be very balanced around the sun. The dark rift makes what I call the crossbar of darkness. At midday, this crossbar is not exactly vertical but it is 30 degrees shy of vertical.

[bram]

what if that's the case? are you all ready?

indeed I do also wish that at least *something* would happen, especially on/around the often 'prophesied/predicted' date of December 21 2012.

but, what if these whole "2012" things are just clever & creative man's made-up hoax/scams/theories,
and/or not real and just our mere wishful-thinking/fantasy/escapism from everyday's harsh/mundane reality/real-life?

in fact, if NOTHING happens on or around that date, and the mundane "life/business goes as usual" with all humanity/society, that's what I'm afraid the most!

-regards from truth-seeker from Indonesia-
-Niki-

Hi Niki,

In my opinion, there is a big change going on spiritually, but nothing spectacular will happen on 21/12. To 99% of the world, it will be exactly like 20/12 and 22/12. The change which is taking place in human consciousness is gathering pace and will hopefully reach a tipping point soon (within my lifetime I hope) but i don't see this being related to the mayan calendar. I just think a lot of people like to see magic in numbers....

Love, bram

[Prodigal Son]

I've read all the stuff about the sun / solar system being "upgraded", massive flares, the earth expanding, pole shifts / axis shifts, etc.... personally, I don't see how human life survives ANY of those things... but I do think it is a turning point. I think it is the end of a window of opportunity for TPTW.... We're going into a positive timeline, much to their dismay. Not a good time coming for negative beings.... I do think my ex-wife is in deep doo doo......

[apokalypse]

At most we can do is wish or hope for things to happen have people receive an wake up call see the real reality what we should be live in.

i'm sick of the world right now live in the system of fear and scarcity...people need to wake up and connect with our root.

[Bo Atkinson]

I'm a believer in "build your reality" ... I just installed an antique, found well stone, as a bridge....
http://harmoniouspalette.com/2013Bridge.jpg
To mark the changing times... To span inspirations for tomorrow. To build the change we seek.

[Arrowwind]

I do exactly realize how far the galactic center is and I also realize how powerful it is and its influence on absolutely every star in the galaxy. That one could see that the galactic center affects all the stars and not believe that it can affect all of life is, well, limited thinking. What is happening is far more that crossing the galactic center,, still I think people have not watched the movie. This has been happening for quite a while yes, but at 2012 we cross the line into the Dwapara Yuga, into the bronze age out of the iron age of consciousness. The next 20 years should be quite amazing if it is an amplification of the last 20. This has been predicted and anticpated for many thousands of years in cultures all around the world.

If one were to gain perspective over the last 20 years one would see that humanity is opening its heart already. Even though we still have very negative forces to deal with the ability to communicate from the heart has increased expoentially in my estimation since the 50's and 60s. The consciousness and awareness of people overall is greatly improved.

Of course there have been people with open hearts for a long time. That is not the issue. You have to look at the bell curve of the unfoldment over time.

When people fill their minds with negatives its hard to perceive and feel the positives. This shift is telling us that because of the solar changes in relationship of sun to galactic center and sun to sun (our sun to Sirius) the centers of the brain are activating. Its going to happen wether you believe or not. How fast it happens for you depends on how attached you are to the old paradigm and how attached you are to not shifting your reality. Unlike previous centuries you have the planets and stars and the whole milkyway pulling for you, so it can be much easier.

It is a great time for celebration and to understand what is happening to us... to proclaim it from the mountain tops will only help to speed the transition in the hearts and souls of humanity. This is not death of a world coming, or a nation or a religion, it is a birth of a new way of being at the most grass roots level possible. I have every anticipation that it will bring forth greater changes than the cultural revolution of the 60s did, both for psychology, personal freedom, capacity to give and receive love as well as technological advances and the development of sustainable life choices... for we are seeing already and will see even more clearly our dynamic and symbioitic relationship to nature and our mother earth.

[Mandala]

I think at this point, I wish we could have disclosure. I think that would be the biggest slap to quite a few folks. I think we need something for the masses, or I believe the majority of people will carry on as they have been for eons. We need one big thing, 9-11 truth (open a new investigation due to new evidence), or something that can not be swept under the carpet. I like to see a large number of people go "wtf?"

[niki]

Too many people are trying to squeeze the data into their theories, you know, like square pegs into round holes kind of things...

Just an example, that so-called alignment... when one draws a line between two points, well they are always aligned and therefore it's impossible to set a date to an alignment that's always there!

Here is a video that explains that the three point alignment galactic center-sun-earth occurs every year -- no fail! -- and explains why the Mayan settled for 2012 for the end of their clock... simply because it symbolizes a triple simultaneous RE_BIRTH!


@Amzer Zo : so , are you saying that in the end, the whole "line up" thing of the Galactic alignment is being entirely made-up by the Mayans? as in like "connecting the line" (ie: making the line connection), where there is actually supposed to be NO LINE at all? ... what do we call this: the power of human's "connecting-the-dots" or deduction skill , that's often could be and DID often being misused by people??

and with that said, also, what always have sort of ticked me off is:
isn't the whole 21 December 2012 could just be, in actuality:

1) a pretty sequence of numbers? eg: 21.12.2012 , just sort of like 344334334 , 88088808, 777, etc ??

2) and consequently, just a MADE-UP thing by some people (eg: scammers, hoaxers, or basically, people who are sensationalists / looking for exciting sensations) , with our Gregorian calendar system, using those "ohh so pretty" sequence of numbers like 21.12.2012 ??

if either one is true, that would be bad, and pretty irresponsible things to do, by people/humans... !


At most we can do is wish or hope for things to happen have people receive an wake up call see the real reality what we should be live in.

i'm sick of the world right now live in the system of fear and scarcity...people need to wake up and connect with our root.


I think at this point, I wish we could have disclosure. I think that would be the biggest slap to quite a few folks. I think we need something for the masses, or I believe the majority of people will carry on as they have been for eons. We need one big thing, 9-11 truth (open a new investigation due to new evidence), or something that can not be swept under the carpet. I like to see a large number of people go "wtf?"

@apokalypse & @Mandala : I know exactly what you're talking about.. same here..
and you'll probably be surprised (or not) that there are actually quite a LOT of even "NON-believers"/skeptics/scoffers of these whole "2012" things that actually DO wish the same thing! .. Just read on this famous AboveTopSecret forum's one particular thread here ! : http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread904514/pg1

[Hervé]

Too many people are trying to squeeze the data into their theories, you know, like square pegs into round holes kind of things...

Just an example, that so-called alignment... when one draws a line between two points, well they are always aligned and therefore it's impossible to set a date to an alignment that's always there!

Here is a video that explains that the three point alignment galactic center-sun-earth occurs every year -- no fail! -- and explains why the Mayan settled for 2012 for the end of their clock... simply because it symbolizes a triple simultaneous RE_BIRTH!


@Amzer Zo : so , are you saying that in the end, the whole "line up" thing of the Galactic alignment is being entirely made-up by the Mayans? as in like "connecting the line" (ie: making the line connection), where there is actually supposed to be NO LINE at all? ... what do we call this: the power of human's "connecting-the-dots" or deduction skill , that's often could be and DID often being misused by people??


[...]

The Mayan didn't imply nor infer anything about their "New (Galactic) Year," only "Westerners" did and ran with that ball as far as they could profit from it...

Here is what Thomas Razzeto writes on is website(http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/why-maya-picked-2012.html):



The “Galactic Alignment” of John Major Jenkins and “Era-2012”

It is very important for me to point out that in the mid-1990s, John Major Jenkins became the first person to link the restart date of the Maya calendar to an astronomical event driven by precession and he refers to this event as the “galactic alignment.” John is well aware of the Maya’s metaphor of the dark rift as the birth canal and he clearly sees the sun’s presence in the dark rift as a rebirth. But there is something astronomers call the galactic equator that is very near the middle of the dark rift and this is what John focused on, perhaps because its exact location is precisely defined by astronomers. Professional astronomers have verified that at the precise moment of the winter solstice, the center of the disk of the sun was closest to the galactic equator in 1998. John noticed that this lineup of the earth, the sun and the galactic equator would occur repeatedly in the years around 1998 with only slight variation from one year to the next. Because of this, John decided to pick a range of 36 years that he centered around 1998 and he refers to these years as the “alignment zone” or “era-2012.” During these years, the disk of the sun, as seen from earth, will be touching the galactic equator at the moment of the winter solstice. John's zone goes from 1980 to 2016 and it obvious includes 2012. In his view, this zone is the intended target of the Maya calendar.

I have tremendous respect for John personally and I like much of his work. While he most certainly discovered how the calendar is linked to the astronomy, I do not find this zone approach to be very satisfying. When I first read John's work in 2008, I seriously doubted that the Maya missed their intended target by 14 years, even though that is still a very small error. With so much precision being demonstrated by the creators of the calendar, it just seemed unlikely that they missed the year they wanted and yet they still hit the solstice exactly. I felt there must be something special about the exact day of the winter solstice of 2012; both the day and the year are the focus. This is why I went further with my own original research and thinking and I came to the conclusion that both the triple rebirth of the sun and the unique configuration of the sacred tree flying through the sky over the Maya was the target of the calendar. John's approach leads to 1998; my approach leads to 2012. (For more details, see: 2012: Why the Galactic Alignment Is Not It. (http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/2012-why-galactic-alignment-is-not-it.html))

Both the restart date and the place where the calendar was created are important. We cannot ignore that this is a Maya calendar, not a global calendar. The people in the southern hemisphere will have a summer solstice, not a winter solstice so the triple rebirth metaphor will not exist for them since the summer solstice is not thought of as a rebirth. But this was not a problem for the Maya since the Maya lived in the northern hemisphere were only concerned with what they will see from their point of view.

My approach focuses on the center of the dark rift, not the galactic equator, although again, these two things are very close to each other. But more importantly, my view focuses on what will happen on that day over the Maya, not what will happen over a long period of time for people all around the world. Also, please consider the fact that no one can ever look up into the sky and see the galactic equator for it is as invisible as the equator of the earth. Both equators are precisely located by scientists yet both are just imaginary lines. It is important to note that the Maya could look up into the sky without a telescope and frequently see the stunning center region of the Milky Way with the dark rift and this makes this astronomy useful for their metaphorical folklore. And it is also important to note that before dawn and after sunset, they will be able to see significant parts of the sacred tree on that special day in 2012. I think that what the Maya could see with their eyes is an essential point in understanding 2012. The idea that the Maya restart their calendar because of the combination of the triple rebirth of the sun and this special configuration of the sacred tree is to the best of my knowledge, original with me. While other people are aware of the solar rebirths and the sacred tree in general, to my knowledge no one has connected them to 2012 like I have.

Hence, as you may be able to realize, the said alignment, for the Northern Hemisphere, has occurred every year around the winter solstice since the late 1970s...



and with that said, also, what always have sort of ticked me off is:
isn't the whole 21 December 2012 could just be, in actuality:

1) a pretty sequence of numbers? eg: 21.12.2012 , just sort of like 344334334 , 88088808, 777, etc ??

2) and consequently, just a MADE-UP thing by some people (eg: scammers, hoaxers, or basically, people who are sensationalists / looking for exciting sensations) , with our Gregorian calendar system, using those "ohh so pretty" sequence of numbers like 21.12.2012 ??

if either one is true, that would be bad, and pretty irresponsible things to do, by people/humans... !



So, yes, a pretty sequence of number being played into people's imagination while connecting unconnectable dots as well as not letting a good opportunity for profit go by

[Youniverse]

"Doubters" usually negate the subtle change of consciousness of the "Presence"of the present moment. Their minds are too full with "doubting" Change has been going on for quite some time now and will continue to. Change of weather, changes in environment, changes in consciousness. But, if we are not "present" it just flies right over our head!!

Yes there is a difference between questioning and doubting. It seems like present times have been characterized as an epidemic of doubting everything, or at least those ideas/opinions deemed too radical and contrary to the status quo. Being a compulsive doubter is not healthy for you or anybody. Most definately question things and once you are satisfied in your research, accept something as truth until a higher understanding comes along and be free to drop that truth for a new truth!

[DeDukshyn]

Everyone knows that building multimillion ton pyramids ~30,000 years ago in Giza, to trap and sustain energy that only comes in 26,000 year intervals, the next of which - all indications point to as "the 21st" is all an elaborate 50,000 year old hoax that the stupid cave man ancients wanted to play on future man. I mean ... who wouldn't, when it was so easy for them to do?? <note the massive sarcasm> ;)

Imagine if our governments got together and wanted to spend $100 trillion dollars on a "hoax" to trick future people 30,000 years in the future to make them think something was happening when it really wasn't ... That makes perfect sense, right?


More than half the world will not be ready -- and for them "nothing" is what will happen .....

Mind you thoughts and your energies on that day and the two subsequent days ... can't hurt now can it? ;)

[DeDukshyn]

Too many people are trying to squeeze the data into their theories, you know, like square pegs into round holes kind of things...

Just an example, that so-called alignment... when one draws a line between two points, well they are always aligned and therefore it's impossible to set a date to an alignment that's always there!

Here is a video that explains that the three point alignment galactic center-sun-earth occurs every year -- no fail! -- and explains why the Mayan settled for 2012 for the end of their clock... simply because it symbolizes a triple simultaneous RE_BIRTH!


@Amzer Zo : so , are you saying that in the end, the whole "line up" thing of the Galactic alignment is being entirely made-up by the Mayans? as in like "connecting the line" (ie: making the line connection), where there is actually supposed to be NO LINE at all? ... what do we call this: the power of human's "connecting-the-dots" or deduction skill , that's often could be and DID often being misused by people??


[...]

The Mayan didn't imply nor infer anything about their "New (Galactic) Year," only "Westerners" did and ran with that ball as far as they could profit from it...

Here is what Thomas Razzeto writes on is website(http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/why-maya-picked-2012.html):



The “Galactic Alignment” of John Major Jenkins and “Era-2012”

It is very important for me to point out that in the mid-1990s, John Major Jenkins became the first person to link the restart date of the Maya calendar to an astronomical event driven by precession and he refers to this event as the “galactic alignment.” John is well aware of the Maya’s metaphor of the dark rift as the birth canal and he clearly sees the sun’s presence in the dark rift as a rebirth. But there is something astronomers call the galactic equator that is very near the middle of the dark rift and this is what John focused on, perhaps because its exact location is precisely defined by astronomers. Professional astronomers have verified that at the precise moment of the winter solstice, the center of the disk of the sun was closest to the galactic equator in 1998. John noticed that this lineup of the earth, the sun and the galactic equator would occur repeatedly in the years around 1998 with only slight variation from one year to the next. Because of this, John decided to pick a range of 36 years that he centered around 1998 and he refers to these years as the “alignment zone” or “era-2012.” During these years, the disk of the sun, as seen from earth, will be touching the galactic equator at the moment of the winter solstice. John's zone goes from 1980 to 2016 and it obvious includes 2012. In his view, this zone is the intended target of the Maya calendar.

I have tremendous respect for John personally and I like much of his work. While he most certainly discovered how the calendar is linked to the astronomy, I do not find this zone approach to be very satisfying. When I first read John's work in 2008, I seriously doubted that the Maya missed their intended target by 14 years, even though that is still a very small error. With so much precision being demonstrated by the creators of the calendar, it just seemed unlikely that they missed the year they wanted and yet they still hit the solstice exactly. I felt there must be something special about the exact day of the winter solstice of 2012; both the day and the year are the focus. This is why I went further with my own original research and thinking and I came to the conclusion that both the triple rebirth of the sun and the unique configuration of the sacred tree flying through the sky over the Maya was the target of the calendar. John's approach leads to 1998; my approach leads to 2012. (For more details, see: 2012: Why the Galactic Alignment Is Not It. (http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/2012-why-galactic-alignment-is-not-it.html))

Both the restart date and the place where the calendar was created are important. We cannot ignore that this is a Maya calendar, not a global calendar. The people in the southern hemisphere will have a summer solstice, not a winter solstice so the triple rebirth metaphor will not exist for them since the summer solstice is not thought of as a rebirth. But this was not a problem for the Maya since the Maya lived in the northern hemisphere were only concerned with what they will see from their point of view.

My approach focuses on the center of the dark rift, not the galactic equator, although again, these two things are very close to each other. But more importantly, my view focuses on what will happen on that day over the Maya, not what will happen over a long period of time for people all around the world. Also, please consider the fact that no one can ever look up into the sky and see the galactic equator for it is as invisible as the equator of the earth. Both equators are precisely located by scientists yet both are just imaginary lines. It is important to note that the Maya could look up into the sky without a telescope and frequently see the stunning center region of the Milky Way with the dark rift and this makes this astronomy useful for their metaphorical folklore. And it is also important to note that before dawn and after sunset, they will be able to see significant parts of the sacred tree on that special day in 2012. I think that what the Maya could see with their eyes is an essential point in understanding 2012. The idea that the Maya restart their calendar because of the combination of the triple rebirth of the sun and this special configuration of the sacred tree is to the best of my knowledge, original with me. While other people are aware of the solar rebirths and the sacred tree in general, to my knowledge no one has connected them to 2012 like I have.

Hence, as you may be able to realize, the said alignment, for the Northern Hemisphere, has occurred every year around the winter solstice since the late 1970s...



and with that said, also, what always have sort of ticked me off is:
isn't the whole 21 December 2012 could just be, in actuality:

1) a pretty sequence of numbers? eg: 21.12.2012 , just sort of like 344334334 , 88088808, 777, etc ??

2) and consequently, just a MADE-UP thing by some people (eg: scammers, hoaxers, or basically, people who are sensationalists / looking for exciting sensations) , with our Gregorian calendar system, using those "ohh so pretty" sequence of numbers like 21.12.2012 ??

if either one is true, that would be bad, and pretty irresponsible things to do, by people/humans... !



So, yes, a pretty sequence of number being played into people's imagination while connecting unconnectable dots as well as not letting a good opportunity for profit go by

So yes, even though the Great Pyramid of Giza (Alan Alford), the Mayans, and ... hhhmmm someone else I can't recall ... all point significance to that date over tens of thousands of years ... the great "caveman" ancient hoaxers tricking us smart future people with fancy random string numbers ... Great Jokesters they were ... ;) hahahah

Without any doubt to anyone who has studied this seriously, the ancients saw some significance in this date and tried to tell us something. We didn't get it, so to keep our egos "happy" it is much easier to say that it's nothing more than a pretty sequence of numbers than "I don't know" ... isn't it?

A similar 2160 year calender is encoded into ... the White House .. I think .. put there by the founding fathers as a part of the decorative sculpture. This calender seems to indicate the cycles between eras of activated pineal and eras of non pineal activation, and points to Dec 21st 2012 as the year of pineal activation ... the "fluoride programs" take on a whole new meaning when you consider this together .... That's all just a hoax too I think though ... ;) ;)

Humans ...

[Youniverse]

And then there's the Great Cross of Hendaye in France.

[Hervé]

[...]

So yes, even though the Great Pyramid of Giza (Alan Alford), the Mayans, and ... hhhmmm someone else I can't recall ... all point significance to that date over tens of thousands of years ... the great "caveman" ancient hoaxers tricking us smart future people with fancy random string numbers ... Great Jokesters they were ... ;) hahahah

[...]

Humans ...

Hi there,

Do you think those already used the Gregorian Calendar?

[DeDukshyn]

[...]

So yes, even though the Great Pyramid of Giza (Alan Alford), the Mayans, and ... hhhmmm someone else I can't recall ... all point significance to that date over tens of thousands of years ... the great "caveman" ancient hoaxers tricking us smart future people with fancy random string numbers ... Great Jokesters they were ... ;) hahahah

[...]

Humans ...

Hi there,

Do you think those already used the Gregorian Calendar?

Read Alan Alford's God's of a New Millennium. And no, lol, neither the very ancient Egyptians, nor the Hopi, nor the Maya used Gergorian calendars. But 2160 years and X days is the same in any language as it is a simple mathematical counting system based on absolutes of the movement of celestial bodies. It makes no difference.

I too questioned the potential accuracy of this date converted to Gregorian ... but at the end of the day, a day is a day, a year is a year, a lunar cycle is a lunar cycle and a precession is 26,000 years (I can't recall the exact number of years so give or take a few), whether you speak in Mayan calendar language, Egyptian, or Pig Latin.

There is no denying it. The ancients, who were far more advanced than us in many ways, have been trying to alert us to this date ... and we didn't get it (or rather ... we have been withheld from the truth).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what this date represents exactly, in fact it may be a generalization or a "midpoint" in which the exact date isn't all that significant, but it indicates something. To claim the Mayan's indication of this date, which is reflected in many other sources worldwide, is a "fancy looking string of numbers" so that is why million ton monuments were erected to hold this info (Giza Great Pyramid, as per Alan Alford is also a calendar besides its primary function), is so preposterous I'm a little surprised at your (or rather the indication you provided) thinking on this Amzer.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[Hervé]

[...]

... I'm not saying what this date represents exactly, in fact it may be a generalization or a "midpoint" in which the exact date isn't all that significant, but it indicates something.

[..]


...


QED



2) and consequently, just a MADE-UP thing by some people (eg: scammers, hoaxers, or basically, people who are sensationalists / looking for exciting sensations) , with our Gregorian calendar system, using those "ohh so pretty" sequence of numbers like 21.12.2012 ??


... is a pretty sequence of number in the Gregorian Calendar that has nothing to do with a cosmic calendar used by the ancients and, so far, I have only found Thomas Razzeto to provide a rational explanation as to why the Mayans settled for a Winter Solstice of a specific, particular year.

However scammers certainly took, and are taking, advantage of that sequence of pretty numbers.


As for the precession of the Equinoxes and Egypt:



[...]



From http://binaryresearchinstitute.org/srg/SiriusResearch.shtml (http://binaryresearchinstitute.org/srg/SiriusResearch.shtml):



Mr. Homann concludes below that:


"These observations clearly indicate that the so-called 'precession of the earth' is NOT a scientific fact, and that the Sirius system has a noticeable gravitational influence on our solar system."



INTERPRETATION OF THE DATA:

Significant time deviations in earth's period of rotation, as measured with respect to Sirius have occurred over certain months (e.g. in the spring of 1989, when Sirius A, Sirius B and the sun were in direct conjunction). Some minor, but nevertheless distinct deviations appear at regular yearly intervals (usually around March). Since these deviations occur annually, the gravitational influence of the moon or perturbations caused by other planets in the solar system can be excluded. Since such deviations from mean sidereal time CANNOT be caused by an increase or decrease in the speed of earth's rotation, I suspect a combined 'gravitational' effect of the sun and the Sirius system on the earth's axis of rotation. In my article "Some more thoughts on gravitation" I have tried to describe how the Sirius system might be responsible for a 'curvature in space' that can reach as far as to our solar system. As we know, the revolution of Sirius B and Sirius A around their common center of gravity over a period of about 49 years proceeds in an almost vertical plane relative to the planetary plane of our solar system. This motion could cause a periodic fluctuation in the curvature of space, similar to an ocean where a calm wind would create long-stretched waves. If a ship were to sail on such waves, its mast will gently swing back and forth. Likewise, during the earth's orbit around the sun the axis of the earth would 'oscillate' due to these periodic fluctuations of the space-curvature between sun and Sirius. Although the speed of earth's rotation remains unchanged (!), a positive or negative time-deviation from mean sidereal time can be measured, depending on the magnitude and direction of the oscillation of the axis, the sidereal point of reference and the latitude on earth from which the measurements are taken. As a matter of fact, the International Earth Rotation Service observes significant daily variations in earth's sidereal rotation period.





It is also very important to remember that despite some major variations in earth's period of rotation, the mean time interval of the sidereal year or earth's complete orbit period basically remains constant.




Even more surprising is the observation that the mean time interval of the sidereal year, as measured with respect to Sirius is nearly identical (by less than one second) to the time interval of the tropical year. According to the theory of 'precession', a yearly time difference of about 1223 s is supposed to occur between a sidereal year and the tropical year.




The meridian transit measurements of Sirius have shown that neither a time difference of 6 × 1223 s, nor a difference of 6 × 3.34 s has occurred over the 6-year observation period from April 1994 to April 2000.




These observations clearly indicate that the so-called 'precession of the earth' is NOT a scientific fact, and that the Sirius system has a noticeable gravitational influence on our solar system. Obviously, Newton's laws of gravitation cannot explain Einstein's universe. In that respect, it requires further study to see if the 49 year cycle of the Sirius system can provide us with an explanation of the large fluctuations and annual irregularities in earth's rate of rotation that have also been observed around 1941 by experts at the US Naval Observatory.




Additional Comment:

Two other phenomena should be mentioned that took place during the conjunction of Sirius A, Sirius B and the sun around the beginning of February to the end of March 1989, as the function of the time deviation entered from the negative into the positive range (see Graph 1). During this time our outermost planet Pluto, whose revolution period of 248.421 years is exactly 5.0004 to 1 in relation to the Sirius B - Sirius A's orbit period of 49.68 years, went through the perihelion of its very eccentric orbit. On 23 March 1989 an 800 m long 'rock' came in strikingly close proximity to our earth at a speed of about 70.000 km/h. Missing our earth by only a few hours - thereby sparing us a gigantic catastrophe - it also went through its perihelion between sun and Sirius. Thanks to astronomers, who discovered it as it already disappeared again into the vastness of space, a major widespread panic was avoided. These celestial phenomena are not subject to plain coincidence, but are lawful celestial mechanical events. In fact, the Sirius system determines the second (empty) focus point, which is essential for the elliptic orbits of these and other celestial bodies in our solar system. Keep in mind that even our earth has its perihelion around January 2, as it passes through the conjunction of sun and Sirius each year






According to how records have been deciphered, Ancient Egyptians were VERY obsessed with Sirius. That was their chronometer/clock.




Accordingly, what DOES generate a precession of the Equinoxes is that our solar systems belongs to, at least, a binary star system.


See: http://binaryresearchinstitute.org/bri/research/introduction/theory.shtml

[DeDukshyn]

[...]

... I'm not saying what this date represents exactly, in fact it may be a generalization or a "midpoint" in which the exact date isn't all that significant, but it indicates something.

[..]


...


QED


... trim ...

I don't buy Razetto's theory at all. EDIT: Or rather I think there is much more to the story ...

Precession is not an "Earth" thing, it is a law of physics governed by standalone spinning bodies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

So we should lose over 1200 seconds (20 minutes) each six years if precession is real? That doesn't fully compute, but maybe I misunderstood. But if true we lose 2 months of days somehow in 26,000 years? I'm not sure how any days would be lost since a day is a day regardless of axial tilt. If small measurements of time loss were expected due to tilt -- that time would have to be regained back before precession is complete.

Interesting theories though for certain about "gravity" from Sirius affecting our precession, although there's a lot of extrapolation there, thanks for sharing.

You should really check out that book I mentioned though, it makes some interesting considerations around the time periods of ancient earth and is something I think would pique your interest. It's not the be all answer book , but it makes some good considerations. And yes scammers will always be around at every perceived event or significant item of interest .. it is what they do.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Weird .. I got the fatal error 5000 char limit error ... but it still posted ;)

Update: Edited for Clarity Dec 11

[Sirius White]

What ever happens will be subtle....and spiritual. It will take "time" to unfold. But rest assured, the moment is real. But people expecting something elaborate and physical will not see anthing at all.

[OOO]

In my spiritual quest the first thing that I learned was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION...

Nothing is "real" and we are all here to play a fun game of life.

You have free will ....use it.

If all else fails, try sitting in front of a white wall for a few days.

Love to all....

[niki]

In my spiritual quest the first thing that I learned was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION...

Nothing is "real" and we are all here to play a fun game of life.

You have free will ....use it.

If all else fails, try sitting in front of a white wall for a few days.

Love to all....

@OOO : my sincere honest question is: when you said that "the FIRST thing that you learned during your spiritual quest was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION",
were you really experiencing it yourself,
or -with all due respect- it's just your subconscious basically following what many & almost every 'new-age, spiritual' gurus all have seemed to suggest about that "everything is illusion" ? in other words, is it just basically a mere placebo effect / mind/brain-suggestion effect only?..

Just curious.. and want to know the real truth of all this.
thank you.

[we-R-one]

In my spiritual quest the first thing that I learned was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION...

Nothing is "real" and we are all here to play a fun game of life.

You have free will ....use it.

If all else fails, try sitting in front of a white wall for a few days.

Love to all....

@OOO : my sincere honest question is: when you said that "the FIRST thing that you learned during your spiritual quest was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION",
were you really experiencing it yourself,
or -with all due respect- it's just your subconscious basically following what many & almost every 'new-age, spiritual' gurus all have seemed to suggest about that "everything is illusion" ? in other words, is it just basically a mere placebo effect / mind/brain-suggestion effect only?..

Just curious.. and want to know the real truth of all this.
thank you.

Hi Niki,

Not trying to answer for OOO, but I think I understand this person's perspective. Often it's easy to misunderstand what other's are trying to express because the one trying to understand is missing some key information. For many of us who have spiritually awakened, discovering that we live in an illusion is very common. This concept became realized for me when I discovered my own reincarnation experience. Why? Because when you begin to remember who you are, you realize that you are consciousness. When you realize you're consciousness you realize there are no boundries as to where you can go. You realize that you are down here on planet earth living an experience so that you can learn and grow. You then quickly begin to realize that the experiences you are having are illusions created for that learning and growing. You are consciousness, you are not your body, your job, or your experiences. So it has nothing to do with following some 'new-age' guru. Most likely new age gurus are saying this because they have come to the same realization.

I find that as some become more spiritually advance, it become more difficult for them to explain in simple terms, so ones who are trying to understand can catch up. So key pieces often get missed and lead to confusion for the poor souls who are just waking up or haven't come to the same conclusion due to their inexperience and no fault of their own.

To understand the whole consciousness frame of reference I recommend looking into stories that cover NDE(Near Death Experiences) and even reincarnation. Dr. Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon has his own personal experience with a NDE that he shared with the public in both his book and several interviews. What's so perfect about him having an NDE is the fact that he has a medical background and according to him, he was able to rule out all medical reasonings given in the past for people's NDE experiences. He's proving through his own story and medical background that consciousness is a fact and not some fabricated storyline that many who don't want you to know the truth have kept hidden by discrediting the experiences of others. I pulled a short interview for you to listen to, but you can find many more on you tube.

knIC7jQmZkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knIC7jQmZkQ

I hope this helps? Not trying to step on any toes, only trying to help offer interpretation so that a concept can be better understood. Good that you ask questions! You are headed in the right direction.....and welcome to the awakening process!

P.S. Sorry the video picture isn't popping up for some reason, might be a system error. At least you have the link to follow.

[Hervé]

[...]

... I'm not saying what this date represents exactly, in fact it may be a generalization or a "midpoint" in which the exact date isn't all that significant, but it indicates something.

[..]

...


QED
... trim ...

[...]

Precession is not an "Earth" thing, it is a law of physics governed by standalone spinning bodies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession


[...]

Update: Edited for Clarity Dec 11

The "precession" invoked here by Mr. Homann is the so-called lunisolar precession theory which is proven false with the observations and time measurements made with Sirius as the reference point. These measurements demonstrate that the earth is not wobbling or "precessioning." To the contrary, these same mearurements demonstrate the earth to be stably rotating about a stable, non-wobbling, axis of rotation except when Sirius A, B and the sun are in cojunction. Hence, that comment would have been unnecessary had the content of what I posted been fully grasped.

Accordingly, since the observed precession with the sun as reference cannot be due nor attributed to an earth's non-existent wobble, something else is causing it. Hence the supporting evidence provided by the Binary Research Institute for our sun being part of a binary system.



So we should lose over 1200 seconds (20 minutes) each six years if precession is real? That doesn't fully compute...

[...]

Taking Sirius as reference plainly show no time difference between Sidereal and Tropical years over a period of 6 years whereas taking the sun with respect to quasars as reference does show a yearly difference of 1223 s on average.


From http://binaryresearchinstitute.org/bri/research/evidence/lunarcycle.shtml:


Reference Frames

Under the current lunisolar theory of precession it is assumed that the earth goes around the sun 359 degree 59 minutes and 10 arc seconds in a Tropical year, the period from like equinox to like equinox, which is equal to 365.2422 rotations of the earth. This is true if you measure the position of the equinox relative to the fixed stars “outside” the solar system but it is not true if you measure the movement of the equinox relative to the sun or moon or other objects “within” the solar system, where the lunar data shows us that the earth goes around the sun a complete 360 degrees in a tropical year. Unfortunately, neither NASA VLBI (Very-long-baseline interferometry) nor any other official agency measures the earth’s orientation relative to nearby objects, so the paradox goes unnoticed.

Earth orientation measurements are typically made relative to quasars because these objects are so distant (outside the galaxy) that they act as virtual fixed points, ideal for making measurements. And they are ideal. However, failure to consider that we are measuring from a moving frame (the Solar System) to a non-moving frame (the fixed stars) has led to a misinterpretation of the VLBI data.

If the solar system were not moving then simple conclusions about the earth orientation data would be correct (Footnote 1). Or if we knew exactly how much the solar system was moving we could account for such movement and add or subtract such amount from the VLBI measurements. The problem is the solar system moves, and this moving frame needs to be taken into consideration when using points of reference outside the moving frame. As of this writing VLBI data interpretations do not account for this motion or any moving frames.

Ironically, astronomers unknowingly recognize the two different frames at work when it comes to routine calculations within the solar system. For example, when they plot the position of planets or moons within the solar system they use a tropical frame, which by definition excludes precession (Footnote 2) thus no precession adjustment is required or even considered. However, when the position of a star needs to be found you first find the object at a point in time (say J2000) then add precession for each year that has passed since that point. Thus current ephemeris methods account for the two frames; precession is excluded when plotting objects within the solar system and included when plotting objects outside the solar system.


The interesting point about the above quote is that Sirius could be considered both close enough to be part of our solar system and far enough to be a sidereal reference point since, with it: Tropical year = Sidereal year.

For other misconceptions about 21/12/2012, see the discussion starting at this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch--James-Gilliland-and-Trout-Lake-&p=596488&viewfull=1#post596488) <---

[DeDukshyn]

@OOO : my sincere honest question is: when you said that "the FIRST thing that you learned during your spiritual quest was that EVERYTHING IS AN ILLUSION",
were you really experiencing it yourself,
or -with all due respect- it's just your subconscious basically following what many & almost every 'new-age, spiritual' gurus all have seemed to suggest about that "everything is illusion" ? in other words, is it just basically a mere placebo effect / mind/brain-suggestion effect only?..
Just curious.. and want to know the real truth of all this.
thank you.


Allow me to try to help with this ...

There are two main levels of illusion that we actively participate in, a conceptual one and a physical one. The conceptual one can be understood with psychology or advanced spirituality and the physical can be understood by studying quantum physics.

Quantum physics is a bit deep for regular understanding and it takes a while to get a full understanding because of the education required, however, there are some good sources that can put these things into somewhat layman's contexts. The movie "What the !@#$*! Do We Know?!" attempts to do this, without going into any specific quantum physics details. It's a good movie and I can recommend it for considerations.

The most "Real" thing about you is that you are aware and you experience. That's about it. Nothing much else is "Real". Do you remember when you were a baby? Likely not, but then you were far more "Real" because you existed in a more natural state of mind that had no classified illusions assigned to it yet -- you only had awareness and perception, and nothing else.

We think that as we get older we become more planted in "Reality" as we learn to speak a language, and interact with our environment, but the opposite is true, we start out pure, and envelope the Illusion around us through our "learning".

Current languages is the provider of the conceptual illusion. Without it, the conceptual illusion would more or less cease to exist. An example is our labeling of things and how the mind comes to view those things as the labels - rather than what they actually are.

Ekhart Tolle used a good example once about Honey. He said we can know the word "Honey", we can know that bees make it, we can analyze the constituents, we can write an entire thesis on Honey, and read all the encyclopedias about what is "honey", we can become an "educated expert" in honey. But unless you have TASTED honey, all you know are the illusions and labels associated with Honey. You do not have a REAL experience of Honey, UNLESS you taste the honey, regardless of how many facts you know and no matter what your "education" level is about honey. If you haven't tasted it, you only know the illusions that are associated. I call this the difference between true learning and learning "about" things. Notice how the part that provides you the "facts" about reality is not the true learning process in my view ... ;-)

We wrongly associate our labels as the things they represents -- this puts the illusions "about" these things into our minds where we learn to interact completely on this level of illusion, without giving value to the actual things that they are. It seems subtle, but the effect on consciousness is huge.

Let's look at the illusion of "self". What you think you have become -- as a "person" is part of the illusion, remember, anything beyond your awareness, is actually illusion. If you are raised as a baby from Buddhist monks, you will end up an entirely different person than if you were raised by a military general. So what's the real you? Nothing that you are taught and that the ego uses for processing is a part of you, but merely a part of this conceptual illusion we live in. All is variable - the only constant or "Truth" with a capital T is your awareness. Humans use "Reason" to justify this illusion, and pretend it is "real".

For example, we believe that something happens - and that causes us to have an emotional response. This is a big part of the conceptual illusion. But let's say my car get's stolen and I get angry. Did the fact that my car got stolen make me mad? No, I choose to express my "mad-ness" at that time -- that is all, my justification is "He stole my car." Another more spiritual person may get his car stolen and be fully indifferent. Where's the "cause and effect" now? Not there because it was never real - just illusion backed by a "Reason". You see, humans project from a place of timelessness, so in order for me to get "angry", - "angry" has to fully be a part of my self - a part of my mind, an unbalanced part. If I remove that quality from my Being, I no longer will be able to re-act in anger at anything that happens to me, regardless of what is happening in the illusion. My point of awareness is what is real. ;)

Do you see now how this "conceptual" illusion has been put into our minds? We think with it, we talk with it, we relate with it in the form of structured linguistics, but it is not real, it is merely the choices we make backed up by false "reasons" to justify the "reality" of said illusion, rather than accepting full responsibility for our actions. We blame the illusion, then we have to all pretend that that "Illusion" is real so we don't look like the fools we are for having that reaction to illusion. Most of humanity is in agreement to over value this illusion to justify our poor unproductive "reactions" to things, rather than being honest with ourselves. This is why advanced spirituality AND psychology are both methods of coming to the understanding of this -- it is all tied together. Coming to this realization is a bit like "growing up" in a sense, and when you see the truth from this perspective, it is hard not to see everyone still pretending this illusion is "everything" as a childish mindgame. Once you have this awareness it is almost impossible to view the world in any other way.




The next level of illusion is the physical one. This is a persistent illusion, which means it's governance is "mostly" outside our ability to have much control over, outside of other physical reactions (illusion / illusion interaction, however this is more likely related to limits of our consciousness). There are exceptions to this - one being atomic energy and the other being the process of conscious manifestation, which we all partake in in one way or another.

My experiences with conscious manifestation go hand in hand with what quantum physics hints to us about the nature of our reality. Expectation and observation can change result. Right there tells me that our physical environment is all variable - -all potential, until expectation within consciousness is applied. Many experiments in quantum physics proves this actually happens - one is the famous double slit experiment. So if physical environment is affected by consciousness, how "real" is it? It is as real as the expectations of the observer, therefore it is also nothing more than a resultant illusion based on the persistence of form (it's "real-ness"), and conscious interaction. If it is not absolute - it is illusion.

One could describe scales of "real-ness" or of "Illusion-ness" for things, because basically anything that is not God, is some level of illusion. This doesn't mean the illusion isn't important, it means we have been applying the wrong values to the physical realm is all.


I hope that helps a little bit, I tried to "layman-ize" it all the best I could. Sometimes the understanding of something is very difficult to verbalize.


My 2 cents ;)

[DeDukshyn]

... Trim ...

The interesting point about the above quote is that Sirius could be considered both close enough to be part of our solar system and far enough to be a sidereal reference point since, with it: Tropical year = Sidereal year.

For other misconceptions about 21/12/2012, see the discussion starting at this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch--James-Gilliland-and-Trout-Lake-&p=596488&viewfull=1#post596488) <---

I'm still not fully convinced, but I will be further checking your sources a little -- I don't want to distract this thread too much. So what is the force that "prevents" Earth's precession? Gravity from Sirius? It would have to be very powerful, no? Could it be a different force other than "Gravity"? I'm not sure what the exact mechanism would be here or how this would work. Maybe PM me if you have this info or point me to more specific texts on that. Thanks for sharing ;)

[OOO]

@niki
It is a bit daunting when someone tells you that nothing is real. A million questions arise, and the worst of all is self-doubt.
My experience was a slooooowww realization and it came with getting to know/accept/realize/believe/trust/...the existence of my higher self. If you pay real close attention to your voice in your head you can distinguish when you are talking and when You are talking. The first time I heard it scared me and then doubt followed, then denial and eventually it became normal. This alerted me that reality is fluid, multi-dimensional, illusory....

Another aspect that helped me was poking into past lives and 'life between lives'. Michael Newton and his books Journey of Souls[I] and [I]Destiny of Souls (careful to stay away from Newtons personal conclusions) really help you understand your responsibility in this life and why you chose certain obstacles.

Coming to terms that you are more than this rambling mind and dense body is liberating because you get a peak into something more than this reality.

Wow...really sorry that I cannot explain and transfer my feeling/experience to you in a more coherent manner.

DeDukshyn explains it far more eloquently....

In the end its all mind games.

Lots of love...

[Hervé]

You all know how the New Year is celebrated the world round on New Year's Eve... followed by many with their New Year's resolutions... well, it's not much different for the Mayas and THEIR New Year:

From http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-12-10/end-world-hear-2012-prophecy-%E2%80%A6-direct-mouths-mayan-priests:

End of the World? Hear the 2012 Prophecy … Direct from the Mouths of the Mayan Priests
Submitted by George Washington (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/george-washington) on 12/10/2012 10:32 -0500


http://shamangene.com/BLOG/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/mayan_calendar1.jpg


Ignore Second-Hand Information … Hear the Real Prophecy

Preface: The Mayan 2012 end of the world “prophecy” is scaring the pants off numerous children and suicidal teeangers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240718/2012-Mayan-apocalypse-rumors-pose-threat-frightened-children-suicidal-teenagers-says-NASA.html). 1-in-10 (http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5610) people believe that the Mayans have prophesied the end of the world (and see this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9730618/Mayan-apocalypse-panic-spreads-as-December-21-nears.html)). A Google search for "Maya 2012" currently brings up 325 million hits (https://www.google.com/search?q=maya+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a), only slightly less than a search for the most popular words (https://www.google.com/search?q=maya+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=0Oo&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=sex&oq=sex&gs_l=serp.12..0l4.2107.2599.4.3417.3.3.0.0.0.0.121.324.1j2.3.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.4qdygm1FlQI&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=9d9a3e994323bd6c&bpcl=39650382&biw=939&bih=578).

This post is a public service announcement to reach children and adults scared about the Mayan prophecy … to show with the Mayan priests’ own words that the world will not end in 2012.

Many people are talking about the Mayan 2012 prophecy (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/#).

But few know what the Mayan priests actually said about 2012.

In reality, Mayan elders say something very different from what you might have heard.

For example, Wakatel Utiw – leader of the National Council of Elders Mayas, Xinca and Garifuna, Day Keeper of the Mayan Calendar, and 13th generation Quiche Mayan Spiritual Leader - says that the end of the Maya calendar has nothing to do with the end of the world (http://www.ibtimes.com/2012-not-end-world-say-maya-elders-285191).

He also explains that December 21, 2012 might not even be the end of this cycle of the calendar (http://www.shiftoftheages.com/maya-message-2012):

Contrary to popular belief the living elders of the Maya do not agree that December 21, 2012 is the end of their calendar. A new “Sun” represents the beginning of a new Long Count cycle in the calendar system of approximately 5,200 years, which they say may not happen for many years.
And see this (http://www.youtube.com/embed/UJfJqct5AGI).
(A brand new film called “Shift of the Ages” (http://www.shiftoftheages.com/) tells the Mayans’ beliefs in detail … and gives their true warnings.)

Similarly, Tz’utujil Mayan elder Tata Pedro Cruz says that the world will not end in 2012:


po6SL6KaMJ0

Mayan elder and priest Carlos Barrios – who has extensively studied the Mayan calendars – says (http://www.indigenous.youth-leader.org/?p=3712):

Anthropologists visit the temple sites and read the inscriptions and make up stories about the Maya, but they do not read the signs correctly. It’s just their imagination. Other people write about prophecy in the name of the Maya. They say that the world will end in December 2012. The Mayan elders are angry with this. The world will not end. It will be transformed.”
Leonzo Barreno – a Guatemalan native who was trained by Mayan elders (http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2011/12/29/sk-mayan-calendar-1229.html) to read the ancient calendars – says (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2080941/Mayan-calendar-December-21-2012-wont-end-world-says-Leonzo-Barreno.html) says the ‘apocalypse’ concept is a false interpretation of the Long Count calendar, that the Mayan elders taught him that December 21 this year simply marks the start of a new calendar:

‘There are two sides to the story,’ he told CBC. ‘The one that we know is this apocalyptic meaning that has been given to the Long Count.

‘The other side of the story is the Mayan side, which you rarely see on media articles, because they never interview my own people.’

‘For them it’s a joyous event, not an apocalyptic event. What is coming is the end of a calendar and the beginning of a new one.
Ricardo Cajas – president of the Collective of Native Organizations of Colectivo de Organizaciones Indígenas de Guatemala – says (http://prensalibre.com/noticias/controversia-detras-profecia_0_191380911.html) the date did not represent an end of humanity or fulfillment of the catastrophic prophecies, but that the new cycle “supposes changes in human consciousness.” (Translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://prensalibre.com/noticias/controversia-detras-profecia_0_191380911.html)).
Pedro Celestino Yac Noj – a Mayan sage living in Cuba – says (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9730618/Mayan-apocalypse-panic-spreads-as-December-21-nears.html):

The 21st is for giving thanks and gratitude and the 22nd welcomes the new cycle, a new dawn.
Rather than being the end of the world, Mayan priest Jose Manrique Esquive believes (http://intercontinentalcry.org/maya-banned-from-performing-ceremonies-at-ancestral-temples-in-mexico/) that 2012 may bring a transition to a better time for humankind.
And AP noted (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/ap/strange/main5378465.shtml) in 2009:

Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly “running out” on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it’s not the end of the world.

***

Definitely not, the Mayan Indian elder insists.

***

Chile Pixtun, a Guatemalan, says the doomsday theories spring from Western, not Mayan ideas.
And if you don’t believe what the current Mayan leaders say, please remember that archaeologists recently found a cache of ancient Mayan calendars which goes thousands of years past 2012 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/archeologists-discover-mayan-hieroglyphs-showing-the-world-continuing-for-thousands-of-years-past-2012.html). And see this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/01/no-mayan-apocalypse-in-2012-but-theres-alot-of-other-amazing-stuff-happening.html).

Note: The Mayan elders do make prophetic warnings, but it has nothing to do with 2012. Specifically, they warn that we need to rein in war and pollution or we will destroy ourselves.

Given that numerous end of the world prophecies (http://www.businessinsider.com/failed-doomsday-predictions-2012-12) have come and gone without incident, and that the Pope has declared (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html) that – due to a miscalculation – we are currently in AD 2016, not 2012 – it is smart to take all date-specific predictions with a spoonful of cynicism.
********************************************************************

BTW, the picture above is an AZTEC carving... not Mayan at all.

[DeDukshyn]

Thanks Amzer, and you are fully correct in that this idea of doomsday is pure nonsense! That aspect of the story is pure sensationalism - and one that drives some people to "scamming".

I have studied American ancients for quite time, and I never ever had the impression the Mayan calendar meant the end of the world. The Mayans themselves say that the reason it only goes to the point it does and then stops, is because it is expected that we will need an entirely "new" calendar after this time.

Many Mayan elders do not even claim to know much about what this point in time represents, but they all say it has something to do with our sun, a few go further than that in their explanations.


I think if there is one thing for certain about the 21st -- it will not be any type of doomsday.

I have the impression (backed by my intuition) that it may be the dawning of a new "Golden Age" on Earth, the start of a directional change ... how that change comes about, whether as the Truth from ET sources to the masses, or some strange energy burst that affects our consciousness, I think is less important if this premise is actually true.

My 2 cents worth ;)

[norman]

" what if the whole '2012' things are not *real* and just a mere wishful-thinking?"


I know forum text doesn't convey humor very well, but, you ARE kidding, right ! ?

[DeDukshyn]

Here's some Mayan descendants giving their take:

3v67pxeizXo

wbAvF0Qcb2o

[DeDukshyn]

I feel compelled to also share that in my opinion, it is possible that the Mayan calendar that exists today is intentionally misleading in its "date".

The Ancient Americas were infiltrated by a "God" that came and changed the course of their civilization, in a similar fashion to how Horus-Ra infiltrated and changed the course of Egyptian culture, steering them out of their "Golden Age" through the introduction of the sense of scarcity, and the resultant "commerce" that was used for controlling the masses. (implanting fear into consciousness, for the purpose of control)

The ancient American scriptures tell a story of two of their "Gods" in opposition with each other -- one trying to preserve their golden age and the other trying to destroy it, by implementing a type of satanic religious culture. I keep in my mind the level of this infiltration may have spread to even their art and artifacts. We all know the level the "elite" go to sometimes to spread their madness ... Just something I keep in mind with all this Mayan stuff. I believe the Aztec and Inca also had calendars of sorts ... might be worth trying to find those and compare that to the Mayan's. I allow a small chance that this may be true, based on the history I know of ancient America.

[Wind]

Ra is benevolent entity. The ancient egyptians were helped by RA.

http://www.lawofone.info/

There have been "good" and "bad" contacts throughout the ages, because we actually were created by other civilizations. "God created man in his own image." Most of them want just good for us, others are neutral and only a very few races are really bad. However, planet Earth has been a long time in under control of the darkness. Illuminati actually originates from ancient Egypt. There were those who twisted the teachings of RA so that they could benefit themselves. It is called service to self... Then there is service to others.

Our history is so convoluted that it is nearly impossible to understand the big picture. When we will regain our past life memories through the shift or DNA upgrade we will remember and then we will understand.

[ThePythonicCow]

So what is the force that "prevents" Earth's precession?

I would ask not what prevents precession, but what causes it.

When a child spins a top, it precesses because the axis of rotation forced by the child's hand is not perfectly aligned with the gravitational field.

But what of the earth's spinning? What caused it to spin, and how did it come to pass that the cause of spinning was not aligned with the gravitational field in which it finds itself?

Perhaps, just perhaps, the cause of the earth's spinning and the nature of the fields in which it finds itself are one and the same, in which case the earth would have no reason to precess in its orbit. Perhaps the apparent precession is due to our choosing a coordinate space that is not aligned with the fields about the earth, but rather choosing a coordinate space that is itself poorly chosen and precessing, relative to what's "really" there.

Discovering a coordinate space that is plausibly connected with the known physics and behavior the various known large objects in and near our solar system, in which coordinate space the earth is not precessing, lends further credence to the possibility that it's not the earth that's precessing, but a poorly chosen coordinate space that's precessing.

[DeDukshyn]

So what is the force that "prevents" Earth's precession?

I would ask not what prevents precession, but what causes it.

When a child spins a top, it precesses because the axis of rotation forced by the child's hand is not perfectly aligned with the gravitational field.

But what of the earth's spinning? What caused it to spin, and how did it come to pass that the cause of spinning was not aligned with the gravitational field in which it finds itself?

Perhaps, just perhaps, the cause of the earth's spinning and the nature of the fields in which it finds itself are one and the same, in which case the earth would have no reason to precess in its orbit. Perhaps the apparent precession is due to our choosing a coordinate space that is not aligned with the fields about the earth, but rather choosing a coordinate space that is itself poorly chosen and precessing, relative to what's "really" there.

Discovering a coordinate space that is plausibly connected with the known physics and behavior the various known large objects in and near our solar system, in which coordinate space the earth is not precessing, lends further credence to the possibility that it's not the earth that's precessing, but a poorly chosen coordinate space that's precessing.

What caused it to spin I think is less relevant than why does it not precess? If you spin a gyroscope, and there are no forces acting otherwise - it precesses. So, I think my question is relevant, the fact that it does spin is more relevant than why it spins for this question ... unless I am missing something still from what you guys are saying ... which is well likely. I can be slow on the uptake sometimes ;)

Edit: Ok I get what you are saying now. So without a plane of gravity pulling at an off angle to perpendicular of azis, then precession will not occur, right?

I found this for consideration: But it will take a little time to grasp all this math ... http://astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro6570/Precession_Free_and_Forced.pdf

Edit2: A lot of that math is beyond me, but it appears according to this that both the Sun's gravity and / or a planet's satellite(s) can also cause "forced precession".

[Wind]

CPriixJ6_Ms

[DeDukshyn]

RA is benevolent entity. The ancient egyptians were helped by RA.

http://www.lawofone.info/

There have been "good" and "bad" contacts throughout the ages, because we actually were created by other civilizations. "God created man in his own image." Most of them want just good for us, others are neutral and only a very few races are really bad. However, planet Earth has been a long time in under control of the darkness. Illuminati actually originates from ancient Egypt. There were those who twisted the teachings of RA so that they could benefit themselves. It is called service to self... Then there is service to others.

Our history is so convoluted that it is nearly impossible to understand the big picture. When we will regain our past life memories through the shift or DNA upgrade we will remember and then we will understand.

Not Ra .. Horus-Ra. Completely different. Horus attached Ra to his name undeservingly, and deceivingly. He started Earth's fall from the last "Golden Age" -- the "structures" he created persist to this day. (I am referring to political and monetary structures -- not the pyramids -- they already existed then, built before or during the last "Golden Age")

[Wind]

Not Ra .. Horus-Ra. Completely different. Horus attached Ra to his name undeservingly, and deceivingly. He started Earth's fall from the last "Golden Age" -- the "structures" he created persist to this day.

So you mean that Horus was actually a malevolent "God"? A service to self entity, if you will.

[Godiam]

I agree with you CS,and there is also the fact that when you are having your breakfast cup of tea my Dec 21 will be nearly over!

That is the trouble with date specific prophesy, it does not take the International Date Line into account!

The simple FACT that SPIRIT does not have a clock (or calender) makes any prediction hard to pin down to a certain day, let alone an hour!
It is my belief that this date is the center-point of a much larger window of opportunity that humanity is going through!

HUGS...........Godiam

[norman]

So you mean that Horus was actually a malevolent "God"?



Anything that makes you passive in the face of encroaching tyranny is malevolent.

[DeDukshyn]

Not Ra .. Horus-Ra. Completely different. Horus attached Ra to his name undeservingly, and deceivingly. He started Earth's fall from the last "Golden Age" -- the "structures" he created persist to this day.

So you mean that Horus was actually a malevolent "God"? A service to self entity, if you will.

It appears that would be the case ... In ancient Times the addition of "Ra" as an extension of a name was to be reserved for the rightful heirs within the ancient Matriarch system that governed ancient Egypt. If you look at Egyptian art, all Kings and Queens previous to Horus have a specific stance where the left foot is slightly ahead of the right foot. This indicates emphasis of the divine feminine within them. If you look at any art of Horus, he has his right foot a giant step ahead and his left foot back -- this indicates a fully "masculine" emphasis which can be interpreted as STS compared to the rest of the ancient royalty in the Egyptian art. Also consider that previous art to this era always had a queen as the main royal figure with a "king" at her side, and after this period it was all about the Kings -- not the queens. This represents the switch from a matriarchal system to patriarchal system.

The video series "The Pyramid Code" from 2008 explains this all a little better, available here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52889-Recommended-Viewing&p=595659&viewfull=1#post595659

[ThePythonicCow]

A lot of that math is beyond me, but it appears according to this that both the Sun's gravity and / or a planet's satellite(s) can also cause "forced precession".

Beyond me too :).

But, yes, from that article it would appear that there are several precessions involved. The earth is not a rigid billiard ball, but rather a flexing structure of varying densities, spinning at an angle in a complex gravity field formed by the sun and moon in particular.



8yRdDnrB5kM
Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957)

[DeDukshyn]

A lot of that math is beyond me, but it appears according to this that both the Sun's gravity and / or a planet's satellite(s) can also cause "forced precession".

Beyond me too :).

But, yes, from that article it would appear that there are several precessions involved. The earth is not a rigid billiard ball, but rather a flexing structure of varying densities, spinning at an angle in a complex gravity field formed by the sun and moon in particular.



8yRdDnrB5kM
Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957)

You keep adding that .. it doesn't flex that much or it'd be natural disaster day every day ;) Also keep in mind the ocean movements have settled into equilibrium.

Addition: Also, from what I have seen of the abilities of the ancients, I would not be surprised if they could calculate aberrations in the Earth's precession if there are any. So While I do find Amzer's Source very intriguing ... I'm going to stand by my thoughts for now -- the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it. My 2 cents ;)

[SilentFeathers]

I sometimes wonder if this whole 12-21-2012 thing was thought up by a couple of dudes tripping on acid while they were fixated and starring at the Aztec calendar disc.....thinking it was Mayan

[ThePythonicCow]

I found this for consideration: But it will take a little time to grasp all this math ... http://astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro6570/Precession_Free_and_Forced.pdf
Notice that most of this paper's calculations involve more rapid cycles, such as of 306 days, 434 days or 18 years, and seems to involve more substantial comparisons between what's calculated and what's observed.

When it comes to the "long count" precession cycle, they presume the 25,600 yrs cycle length (taking it as "observed")




The observed precession rate of the Earth’s spin axis is ... corresponding to a period of 25,600 yrs.
and then find a decent correlation of the "polar moment of inertia of the Earth" calculated from this "observed" rate with that inferred by the Darwin-Radau approximation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%E2%80%93Radau_equation) of the Earth’s rotational flattening. All of which leads me a bit confused, but unclear as to whether their observations inform us one way or the other as to the essential cause and nature of this long count precession cycle.

[DeDukshyn]

I wouldn't even know where to begin combining the two equations ... :confused:

[ThePythonicCow]

the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it.
As observed against the celestial background, the position of the sun at the times of the various soltices and equinoxes surely does change over an approximately 25,600 year cycle. That I am convinced is true, and was known to the ancients (or to whomever was informing them.) For example, the sun is in the constellation Sagittarius at about the time of our present winter solstice (shortest days in Northern hemisphere), but in 13,000 years, the sun will be in whatever constellation is half way around (Gemini?).

Since Sagittarius is in the general direction of our galaxy's core from here, this means that the earth is on what I called above the "back side" of the sun at this time of year, in current times, but the earth will be on the "front side" of the sun 13,000 years from now when it is winter in the Northern hemispheres.

This is what is the essential observation that is described as the 26,000 precession ... that the earth's seasons cycle, relative to the alignment of the earth, sun and celestrial background, on about a 26,000 cycle.

[DeDukshyn]

the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it.
As observed against the celestial background, the position of the sun at the times of the various soltices and equinoxes surely does change over an approximately 25,600 year cycle. That I am convinced is true, and was known to the ancients (or to whomever was informing them.) For example, the sun is in the constellation Sagittarius at about the time of our present winter solstice (shortest days in Northern hemisphere), but in 13,000 years, the sun will be in whatever constellation is half way around (Gemini?).

Yes, this is what I understand -- all Astrology is actually based around the precession. Part of the original argument came from something I interpreted from one of Amzer's posts. But I may have misunderstood him - I sometimes do.


Addition:
It appears to me that the 21st may be a marker for something that occurs on a completion of a precessional cycle -- some sort of alignment that does something or is a marker for something. "Something to do with the Sun" as one Mayan elder put it.

So even though people are saying that the Sun lined up with the center of the galaxy in '98. Maybe the center isn't what the alignment about, but that became the term used because it was close and was a concept all could understand, as opposed to whatever it really might be. People take things to literally ;)

[ThePythonicCow]

all Astrology is actually based around the precession
I don't know jack about astrology ... but yeah ... I suspect you're exactly right.

[DeDukshyn]

all Astrology is actually based around the precession
I don't know jack about astrology ... but yeah ... I suspect you're exactly right.

Well not "real" astrology -- but mechanics ...

Consider the precession divided into 12 sections and assign each a "sign". Each of these signs is represented by a constellation in the sky -- each constellation represents ~2160 years and due to prescession, each one aligns specifically to say a monument every ~2160. This is like a giant clock for determining what part of the precession the Earth is in -- like a giant clock -- almost exactly.

The Mayan Calendar is very similar, but it seems to mark a point in t ime along the precessional path ... at least this is how I understand it.

One thing is for certain .. the Ancients felt the need to track extremely long periods of time ... Now I reconsider the biblical takes of men living to a 1000 years old. It all makes one think a bit ;)

ADDITION:

Also consider the Sphinx .. consider the lions head was carved over by an overly proud king. Consider it represents the age of Leo. Consider the era of man's history of Cow and Bull worship -- Taurus. Consider the era of the man named Jesus "The fisher of men" and consider the association of the Pisces symbol to Christianity -- his birth lines up with the start of the age of Pisces. Consider many of the great monuments and histories tell us what era they are from by context. ;)

And also consider how wrong we got the timelines ;)

[ThePythonicCow]

And also consider how wrong we got the timelines ;)
That's for sure.

[DeDukshyn]

The Age of Aquarius!!! The Era we poisoned our oceans!!!! hehehe ;)

Or maybe the next flood ... :shocked::shocked: ;) lol!

(but also ... it might make sense to put the era of the Biblical (and Sumerian, and South American) "flood" into this timeframe ... ~25,000 years ago)

[Hervé]

Ok... let me attempt to 'splain simply...

This is the assumption about earth's axis motion to fit the observation of the slight mis-alignment at the equinoxes (i.e. with no precessioning, the background sky in which the sun, considered fixed or immobile, is positionned would always be in the same spot, that is, no change) of the sun position from the previous year:





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Earth_precession.svg/220px-Earth_precession.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earth_precession.svg)

Precessional movement of the Earth. The Earth rotates (white arrows) once a day about its axis of rotation (red). This axis itself rotates slowly (white circle), completing a rotation in approximately 26,000 years.

Earth's precession was historically called precession of the equinoxes because the equinoxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox) moved westward along the ecliptic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic) relative to the fixed stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_star), opposite to the motion of the Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) along the ecliptic.

The stars viewed from earth are seen to proceed in a procession from east to west on a daily basis, due to the earth’s diurnal motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diurnal_motion), and on a yearly basis, due to the earth’s revolution around the sun. At the same time the stars can be observed to move slightly retrograde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde), at the rate of about 50 arc seconds per year, a phenomenon known as the “precession of the equinox".


So, if the above were true, a similar mismatch of timing at "equinox" or "solstice" times with respect to Sirius should also be happening, right?

Well, the observations demonstrate that it doesn't!

Because, taking Sirius as reference for "Sirius Equinoxes/Solstices" and their timing indicate that "Sirius tropical year" = "Sirius sidereal year."

Hence, the earth, herself is not "precessioning." If it were, then "Sirius tropical year" ≠ "Sirius sidereal year."

Since the earth is NOT precessioning, well, then... it's got to be the sun that's moving around the Zodiac... that escaped the chaps who started measuring the Sidereal Time and the Sidereal Year since their data should have told them that the earth rotation is fairly stable and constant (except for nutations and other minor disturbances) and that the earth's rotation axis is also fairly fixed, stable and constant with respect to distant, "fixed" stars.




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Sidereal_Time_en.PNG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sidereal_Time_en.PNG)
Sidereal time vs solar time. Above left: a distant star (the small red circle) and the Sun are at culmination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culmination), on the local meridian. Centre: only the distant star is at culmination (a mean sidereal day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_day)). Right: few minutes later the Sun is on the local meridian again. A solar day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_day) is complete.



A sidereal year is the time taken by the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) to orbit the Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) once with respect to the fixed stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_star). Hence it is also the time taken for the Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) to return to the same position with respect to the fixed stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_star) after apparently travelling once around the ecliptic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic). It was equal to 365.256363004 SI days[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_year#cite_note-IERS-1) (equivalent to 1 year, 6 hours, and 9.1626 minutes), at noon 1 January 2000 (J2000.0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J2000.0)). This is 20m24.5128s longer than the mean tropical year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year) at J2000.0.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_year#cite_note-IERS-1) The word "sidereal" is derived from the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) sidus meaning "star".


A tropical year (also known as a solar year), for general purposes, is the length of time that the Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) takes to return to the same position in the cycle of seasons, as seen from Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth); for example, the time from vernal equinox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernal_equinox) to vernal equinox, or from summer solstice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_solstice) to summer solstice. Because of the precession of the equinoxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession_(astronomy)), the seasonal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season) cycle does not remain exactly synchronized with the position of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun. As a consequence, the tropical year is about 20 minutes shorter than the time it takes Earth to complete one full orbit around the Sun as measured with respect to the fixed stars (the sidereal year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_year)).



Vernal equinox and autumnal equinox: these classical names are direct derivatives of Latin (ver = spring and autumnus = autumn).

March equinox and September equinox: a usage becoming the preferred standard by technical writers choosing to avoid Northern Hemisphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Hemisphere) bias (implied by assuming that March is in the springtime and September is autumnal—true for those in the Northern Hemisphere but exactly opposite in the Southern Hemisphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Hemisphere)).

Accordingly, all the mathematical attempts to explain and predict the phenomena are just unnecessarily complicated formulas square pegs made to fit round holes of theories.

[Ultima Thule]

What if the whole 2012 is not real was the question?
I figure it is near impossible to find out: think of yourself at around midnight, with no clock whatsoever, can you tell the exact moment when the day changes to the next? What is the difference between one minute before midnight and one minute past midnight?
21st december 2012 might be a significant moment where one cycle ends and the next one begins - how can you feel or distinguish whether something has happened or not as the analogical "daybreak" is in distant future? People will be quick to dismiss it as another 2K-nonsense and might be very wrong to do so, as the possible signs of change might not be apparent in their lifetime..
Oh well, one thing is for sure(or not) - the day will grow longer and the summer is once again starting its return to northern hemisphere.

UT