Climate Change is back to Front

[steve_a]

Hi Everybody,

Climate change exists and has existed for some years now. "Whaaaat?" I hear you ask. "Yup!" Is my reply.

Notice I said 'climate change' and not global warming. How many of us have made comments over the years about, 'It's never been so hot', or 'It's never rained so much' or even, 'Where's the snow?', 'It's never snowed as much'.

The recent reports about the north pole ice cap melting was overshadowing the increase of the ice cap of the south pole!

So what can we make of all this? That the climate is indeed changing, for whatever reason (I beleive natural). The climates are changing. We've seen massive floods in Pakistan and China, drought in Russia and the US, then massive snowfalls in Europe and deluges of rain in the UK. Even here in Northeastern Brazil we have had more rain than normal this year, which was good for me as it filled up my small reservoir, but for other villages scattered around these parts proved fatal as rivers burst their banks and demolished properties.

So why is all this back to front? Because the governments in their wisdom are trying to slow down or stop climate change (so they say) when we should be taking precautions in how to adapt to the change in climate that is beginning to happen.

This means that farmers would begin to experiment on new crops that would be able to survive the different climates (I'm already doing this by the way), adapting housing to be more independent on energy for when the grid goes down caused by downed power lines, even moving house to higher ground, or nearer to resources like wood.

I'm not saying that all this should be done right away, as I don't beleive the climate will change overnight, however if there seems to be a trend building up or the difference between the heat of the summer and the cold of the winter becomes too extreme we need to be in a position to take care of our interests and not be caught on the hop when the bad weather arrives, whatever that weather might bring.

So, what I'm trying to get at is that instead of trying to find the global cause, find the local solution before the problem really gets hold.

Best regards,

Steve

[Celine]

Bring solutions to the table NOt problems..

Great thread steve, many farmers i have spoken to feel the same way you do.,

The planet is NOT in danger... we are , if we do not adapt

[Luke]

So, what I'm trying to get at is that instead of trying to find the global cause, find the local solution before the problem really gets hold.

The planet is NOT in danger... we are , if we do not adapt
Great posts.
Yes, we should do what nature always urges us to do: adopt to everchanging environment.
Problem is, we erected so much (mental) barriers and beliefs that we are slow to react. Worse, people instead of searching for solutions themselves, just look for government for it. And they will be given- solution that will benefit the system.
Here we have high temperatures intermixed with torrential rains, followed by flooding. There ware similar circumstances in 1997, and in 1984-6 before that, from what my father recalls, so at least from here , it looks like sequence, but with higher amplitude on each recourse.
Problem is, 11-13 years is longer that any govt ruled here. People do forget. We have building communities flooded now, that were erected in places flooded in 1997. It is sad, people lost their property, but they knew where they were building, they only hoped another such flood will not happen. Bad bet if you ask me.
On the other hand, historic cities (from XII-XIII centuries), build on chosen hills , were safe even in most blighted areas. What I see from that our ancestors already successfully dealt with similar weather patterns. We have not yet reached temperatures from medieval warm period yet.

BTW. Discrepancy in data between north and south poles makes me think, that reason for relocation of those all blackop guys to south hemisphere might not be War at all. The north is going more and more CHAOTIC. Again, heightened military activity in the north might have something to do with resources hidden there, but I see strong possibility of something changing in Northern "Vile Vortex". Again- no hard data, but damn big hunch about that.

[steve_a]

Hi SaiCo,

Could the North Pole, South Pole changes be the 'pole shift' that everybody is talking about? That the South Pole will freeze over more than the North? That the southern hemisphere will take on all the tracts as the weather in the north, having winter in December and summer in July and vice versa? Hence all the wierd weather patterns... Just a thought.

Best regards,

Steve

[Burke]

Piers Corbyn of the Weather Action Foundation, interviewed here by RT, says that (around) 132 yrs ago there was flooding in Pakistan accompanied by a heat wave in Russia much the same as we have seen recently and believes this to all be cyclical. I spent a half hour trying to dig up some documented proof on this just to toss it to those who constantly claim every weather anomaly as absolute poof of AGW since the concept hit the world stage. Then I remembered that I don't really post anything, anywhere, anymore, much less have a need for documented proofs to throw out as ammunition against ignorance found though out the net, so I readily abandoned the process as a waste of time. In short, I have no proof, just these man's words, and I found them interesting.

eEmUS7PAWFw

good times!

[Luke]

Hmm. Quite interesting, Heretic :) Sorry you got so cynical about thirst for knowledge on the net .... ok, who am I kidding, the sole reason internet exist is pr0n :P
Anyway. Solar-lunar magnetic field corelation affecting weather. With high possibility on earth's field fluctuations thrown into mix.
Now, if my programming skills would be any better, I'd think about program that would (1) model movement of main bodies in our solar system (2) calculate vectors of influence of their (2a) rotational momentum (2b) Magnetic field of main solar System bodies on given place on earth. Something Astrology-meets-physics and climate thingy. Though I'm more interested in astrological FX market predictions, this seem like a worthy project for skilled programmer :)

hunch again, but I think Mr. Corbyn is on the money, about both cycles and AGW proponents being on gravy train :)

[Fredkc]

Well... Mercury is heating up,
Earth is heating up,
Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, all show signs of heating up.

In the more esoteric realms of statistics, these events combine to form whats known as, "a pattern". Maybe even a trend.

For one: We are in fact still emerging from the last Ice Age. Geological events like these are known to take longer than the current "48 hour news cycle". And of course, less ice means more..... warm......ing.

For another, from the great "Global Warming Hack", allow me to show you 1000 years of avg. global temperature data (http://fredsitelive.com/personal/CurEvents/100yrTemps.html). It does show that, whatever is causing it, it isn't us.

No, I do not imply that we are helpless in this, but neither do I think anything will be solved by confiscating my BMW. Besides, you can't. It isn't paid off, yet.

Pictorially what I think we are dealing with is a challenge of something like this:

http://fredsitelive.com/personal/CurEvents/magnetosphere.jpg

over this:

http://fredsitelive.com/images/post/galaxy_radiation.jpg

And toss in an approaching "storm" from elsewhere in the galaxy. Put that all together and you have a challenge worthy of developing mankind's abilities on a cosmic scale, or, barring that, the ability to go elsewhere for several millennia, then return.

Seems to me, what we need are some well thought out, well supported intentions.

Sorry, this is as far as my thinking takes me, on just one cup of coffee.
Fred

[Burke]

What is fascinating to me is that this seems to be a self correcting system, (heating causes thermal expansion which in turn causes extreme weather, as well as glaciation and earth changes that inevitably cause cooling...in cycles caused by mostly unknown external forces) The science is not all that well understood and I am not surprised at the least because we are so limited in our scope and vision, as well as the small range of spectrum we have to draw data from to explain how planets and climates work in this relatively NEW science as it is.

I took a look at the science when the global warming meme caught traction with the powers that be as the UN began to look as if they were actually gonna use it as a globalizing tool. I am by no means an expert from doing this and mostly what I found is how little I know, and that in reality...this lack of understanding how climate works on the whole is the predominate theme though out the entire discipline.

What I found is that the whole idea of exploiting climate fears is not at all new and has been kicked around since the dawn of time. Some measure of "proof" of this can be observed by looking to the records of our written word from establishment owned media. Since 1851 the New York Times had been creating climate alarmist articles which changed from cooling to warming and then back again. I am unaware if back then it was meant to just sell papers, or generate fear based on an agenda as it seems to be today.

I remember growing up in the 70s under the auspicious warnings by climate scientist that we were in fact heading into a an ice age and there was doom and gloom back then as well, although it was relatively ignored by TPTB. Nevertheless I was rather amused by how long this had been going on, as it had flip flopped once in my life already only to see it rear up again, yet WARMING this time...to set global policy and financially enslave the world even more. Needless to say, I am no longer amused.

Here is a list of Climate Change articles that have appeared in the New York Times from 1875 to 1980 showing how much this scare tactic has been kicked around over just one century.

http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/Heretic1963/NYTclimate.jpg?t=1283890470

My opinion on AGW is that it is all bunk. They, none of them, have a freaking clue about the intricate forces and balances that drive a planetary system, much less it's climate. They cant even define what gravity is or where it comes from, yet we are expected to believe they can actually duplicate planetary system technology by making working models in virtual space that can actually predict future climate patterns. It would be laughable if I weren't watching my fellow humans fall for this fear based garbage.

Natural events have been used since ancient times by the "priesthood" to evoke fear into the common people to make demands and drive them in desired directions through social upheaval.

Virgins were sacrificed to appease the "volcano gods" who would otherwise destroy the natives way of life out of fiery anger. Common people or perceived enemies had to pay the price for failed crops because the "rain gods" withheld their gift until enough blood was spilled. The deluge of Noah was a direct result of our own wickedness and sinful debauchery, and the world had to be cleansed of the filth of humanity by a genocidal god. All atrocities "god ordained", translated, and explained in layman's terms to the common people by the "priesthood" of the day.

Today our priesthood wear white Lab coats and Armani suits while we ignorant commoners still need things explained to us, and as you can see...not much has really changed at all.

[Humble Janitor]

As someone who is currently an Environmental Studies major, it just doesn't make sense to keep living in denial. The planet is not in danger? Are you sleeping or something?

Don't get me wrong. I'm against a carbon tax/carbon offsets. I can't stand greenwashing. Real change begins locally and unfortunately, government can't always be relied upon to adopt/enforce environmental standards.

I think when people on here say adopt, they mean ADAPT.

Also, before you start saying that scientists are full of bunk, you have to remember that some of these folks have been carefully studying the climate for decades. They're not amateurs. Anti-intellectualism isn't going to help you or me here.

[Burke]

Well, my main thrust above was that this idea that man is the root cause of climate change is a ruse. As far as a planet in crisis...that is a different story altogether and has little to do with climate IMHO. They (IPCC and gang) are pointing to natural climate changes and calling it a crisis to instill fear and guilt to centralize power by using junk science to convince us all that is our fault. Guilt that is already there because we ARE indeed trashing this planet. But again, this crisis is a totally separate one that has little to do with warming.

Nor do I feel that what we are witnessing in the climate is any indication at all anything is even wrong with our greenhouse situation. I don't think there is a darn thing wrong with our climate. The warming is natural, as Fred stated above NASA has data available on the net that shows that at lease 5 major bodies are undergoing climate change currently. Hell Jupiter alone has lost one of it's bands in it's southern hemisphere. I don't deny that something is happening. But it seems clear to me that as far as climate goes, humanity is not the cause.

BUT...

I am a firm believer that we should stop dumping toxins, or anything rather, into our skies, waters, and the ground. I feel we should be nurturing the planet and cleaning up our mess and to stop creating them in the first place. I feel we need to work our entire lifestyle around towards not creating "negative" circumstances in which the planet or it's inhabitants suffer in any way for it. I am totally anti pollution and anti toxins.

I feel we are totally ruining the planet and yes there is a major crisis, but make no mistake, It is not the planet that is in crisis, it is humanity and the animals we share the planet with that are in crisis - by exposure to toxins and being endangered by how we process the land for resources in a run away economical fervor for "stuff".

9GorqroigqM

I trust the corporations and bankers (the very same folks who screwed up the planet and who now want to "save" this planet with your money btw) to safeguard this planet with the same confidence I would trust a wild tiger to care for my two year old child.

Correction - I feel more comfortable with the tiger.

I may be cynical, but I realize that I could also be in the wrong here and am willing to listen to any rational science or evidence to the contrary of where I stand on this issue ATM.

EDIT to add:


Also, before you start saying that scientists are full of bunk, you have to remember that some of these folks have been carefully studying the climate for decades. They're not amateurs. Anti-intellectualism isn't going to help you or me here.

This was not my intent at all, I admire science and am a fan of it and consider myself an armchair scientist, although I do wish we could move away from naturalism and take a more holistic approach to science. I realize that "I" am the amateur here and in no way feel that what I said about these particular scientists applies to the whole spectrum.

That remark was directly aimed at those who offer a pseudo-science to create and enforce a desired political policy for the gain of a few, at the cost of many. I am also an intellectual and am surprised I came off as "pro Anti-intellectualism". For that I also offer my humble apologies.

I do not think climate science itself is a pseudo-science either, just this odd tangent created by politically motivated scientists who take up lobbying as a second field as they invest their fortunes in green markets. As far as the science itself: when you make carbon dioxide the main culprit in this "warming" case it seems suspect because everything but water itself is a relativity minor player in the whole greenhouse effect.

[Luke]

To chime in with Heretic: Scientist, as Army generals, always try to win last war.
Problem is, they live in the "world" where linear evolution paradigm actually works, contrary to all evidence proving otherwise. All their predictions are simple extrapolations of current trends ad infinium. Thus usually predictors are deadly wrong, as they want to see linear movement in system that is inherently chaotic.

What we have around us instead is very complex system, designed to adapt to unforeseen changes. And it's quite good with it. It survived more than humans. There were times where 90% of organisms present on the planed was wiped out, and yet this magnificent creature continued, creating new species to fit new purposes and bring life to every place life is possible. Evolution just do not cut it, in my opinion. There are are other mechanisms involved in keeping ecosphere alive and kicking, and my giant grudge against "mainstream scientists" is that they are too blind to see it.

Since science does not see system, only "frozen" section through evolution, they fail to see feedback and organizing mechanisms that governs interaction with this system. Species die, but new species are emerging, old ones change to fit changing environment. However things do change, ecosphere would adapt to new pattern, unless somebody actively prevent it from doing just that.

Which is what we are doing right now.

From my point of view, there is a way to create expanding sustainable civilization: we could extend the patterns and forces already present in the ecosphere. But to do that we need to understand how actually nature works.

We need new science paradigm that sees things as holistic systems, not as frozen state one way streets.

If we continue our pillaging, we would be eradicated by next change. Within our system, bent of pillaging resources, we would be unable to adapt fast enough. Even though if we eradicate 95% of current species, after we are gone, nature will re-emerge and start building anew. So, on the long run, I do not believe Earth is screwed. We, on the other hand, are.

Humble Janitor, think you cannot deny that there are serious problems with current state of "Science". Scientific method is abandoned, replaced with paradigms and authorities that cannot be questioned. Tesla said it best:

"Today´s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Abandoning reason for superstitions never helped anybody.

[Fredkc]

Virgins were sacrificed to appease the "volcano gods" who would otherwise destroy the natives way of life out of fiery anger.
Today our priesthood wear white Lab coats and Armani suits while we ignorant commoners still need things explained to us, and as you can see...not much has really changed at all.So naturally, there being no virgins left in our society, they want to sacrifice my BMW, instead.


My opinion on AGW is that it is all bunk. They, none of them, have a freaking clue about the intricate forces and balances that drive a planetary system, much less it's climate.
Science would do well to stick to its knitting, and avoid delusions of priesthood (for even priests do it poorly).

A coming ice age was a known "fact".
Then the "fact" became global warming.
Then the current cooling trend only scant years old, became an effect of, and therefore "proof" of global warming.

In my previous post, I provided a link to 1000 years of "unadulterated" mean temperature data. If anyone wishes to exercise their scientific bent upon this, and produce a trend, feel free. If you prefer, I can even provide the data in the form of an Excel spreadsheet (http://fredsitelive.com/personal/CurEvents/1000yrTemps.xls).

For those who are in need of quick info, here are the first and last entries:
Year 1001: 16.5835 C avg global temp.
Year 1998: 15.8986 C avg global temp.

Enjoy,
Fred

[Humble Janitor]

I do want to add that it's not just scientists who are noticing the changes to our planet. The folks that live up in the Arctic have to deal with disappearing ice and degraded permafrost on a daily basis.

We don't need carbon taxes or carbon offsets. We DO need to stop poisoning Gaia.