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Warlock
23rd December 2012, 04:58
"Make no mistake about it--enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better, or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretense. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true"--ADYASHANTI

I read this on Icke's website.

The reason it resonated with me was because as I have seen through the continually increasing lies, being 'posed' as truth, my life has not become happier. It has become more frustrating, specifically with the media and the politicians.

How in the world can you have a conscience and be a member of the MSN? How can you campaign for political office, and knowingly lie through your teeth, fulling intending NOT to fullfill your promises to the people?

How can money be raised for 911 victims, hurricane victims, or whatever victims of whatever disaster, and then some of that money be pilfered?

How can someone who ripped off old people with a financial scam do jail time, and after their release, be asked to lecture at a well known college?

How can someone 'lose' over one billion dollars, and get away with it?

Is it better to get drunk and party every night, pretending you don't see what is happening? Forget about the pretending part, is it just better to NOT see what is going on? How about the "What you don't see won't hurt you" philosophy for life?

Everything is such a bunch of bull****.

It's just incredible!

Warlock

Freed Fox
23rd December 2012, 05:06
Makes one feel despicably powerless.

This is what I am grappling with right now. Unfortunately I can't believe in 'creating your own reality' beyond utilizing delusion.

I want to stay positive, but....

johnf
23rd December 2012, 05:29
Isn't one of the things we are supposed to let go of in the process
control of others? Thats why it is such a hard path to follow or even understand.
Any resistance to what is arising in the moment is false. Pure action to protect another, or right a social wrong is supposed to be a natural reaction of a pure spirit.

markpierre
23rd December 2012, 05:37
It works toward personal enlightenment right up to the point where you compromise or retreat, in order to save your own view of yourself.

He's not really talking about the outer world.

It begins with discovering the fraudulent nature of the world. But that's the least of the deceptions to expose, and the easiest to live with.

"The world is all a fraud, and I'm not." That's the biggest lie of all. "I'm an innocent victim". The second biggest lie.

truthseekerdan
23rd December 2012, 05:53
The difference between an optimist and a pessimist is that an optimist thinks this is the best possible world. A pessimist fears that this is true.

Dawn
23rd December 2012, 05:54
Warlock, my heart goes out to you. You are seeing the absolute insanity of this world, and it is really shocking. Perhaps that is why the Dali Llama simply says over and over that what you can really do is 'have compassion for yourself and others'. That pretty much sums it up.

After a while it somehow becomes OK, after the initial shock of what your are seeing wears off. What I mean is that you see it all through the eyes of love and compassion for yourself and those 'others' you see all around you. As this ripens your own personal life becomes rather smooth and untroubled.

Another way to see this is that our own internal struggle with it all begins to fade away. We just love all of the strife both within and without ourselves. In a way this is the final release of arrogance and pride, where we used to see ourselves as somehow free of all of this (and the 'others' as foolish)....
We finally realize that there is no 'right path or right way'.

From where I sit now, I see this stage as what is called 'wisdom'. It is a final resting in love and acceptance of all that is... even the insanity of it all.

thetruepathofwisdom
23rd December 2012, 05:54
I also feel frustrated and I sometimes feel there is nothing I can do to change the state of the world. This is because we have only removed the surface layer of lies and deception. There is a lot of knowledge being kept from us. Once you completely remove all false paradigms and perceptions, you can then completely separate yourself from the illusionary world.

So do not despair, this is just the beginning. What is important is that we stay strong and focused, following our heart and never leading astray. Nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING can hold 6 billion people in ignorance for a very long time. It is like David Icke said, we are but a ball being held at the bottom of an ocean, as soon as it is let go, we rise back to the top, to our true state of being. And we are pushing it back up!

JP

Tony
23rd December 2012, 09:58
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and leaves one with a sense of relief.

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 10:19
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and a sense of relief.

Hi Tony I think it is dangerous to take a quote and think that is the totality or essence of the teaching.
If anyone is into file sharing-- have a look on Piratebay for Adyashanti then select "The end of your world or spontaneous awakening"
As with other enlightened teachers he talks about disassembling the self/ego to reveal your true nature which is compassionate and has that essence of bliss, contentedness, freedom from misery, the things the Buddha spoke of.

Enlightenment is enlightenment their being only One it does not vary, but it is expressed differently due to the earthly persona but in the formless is identical. There are nearly three years here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=7764&viewfull=1#post7764 posting of information on enlightenment by various contributors--- some great videos.

Chris

Fred Steeves
23rd December 2012, 10:34
Pressure creates diamonds.

Tony
23rd December 2012, 10:39
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and a sense of relief.

Hi Tony I think it is dangerous to take a quote and think that is the totality or essence of the teaching.
If anyone is into file sharing-- have a look on Piratebay for Adyashanti then select "The end of your world or spontaneous awakening"
As with other enlightened teachers he talks about disassembling the self/ego to reveal your true nature which is compassionate and has that essence of bliss, contentedness, freedom from misery, the things the Buddha spoke of.

Enlightenment is enlightenment their being only One it does not vary, but it is expressed differently due to the earthly persona but in the formless is identical. There are nearly three years here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=7764&viewfull=1#post7764 posting of information on enlightenment by various contributors--- some great videos.

Chris





Hello Chris,
Yes, he is repeating the Buddhas teachings, but this dissembling has to done with care.

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 10:43
Enlightened teachings say that every thought you have is untrue (its filtered/filed/evaluated judged by ego before you are even fully conscious of it) because it is founded on the false premise that there is an individual you, separate, in every way, from everything else.
Spiritual teachers help to relieve you of that illusion.

Chris

Tony
23rd December 2012, 10:57
Some teachers use a hammer to crack a nut!
The student needs to recognise the illusory shell,
and remove it for themselves.

Though as it is an illusion, and there is nothing to remove,
it still has to be recognised.

I have seen some of these 'teacher' at work,
and they lay a guilt trip on their students, to
keep them coming back for more.


It's just a personal observation.

Guiding other's spiritual welfare is a great responsibility.




Tony

Tony
23rd December 2012, 11:12
I've seen Mr A at work.
He just says, "IT IS AS IT IS", to a woman who was having a terrible time. She was crying, and he just says, "IT IS AS IT IS".
In truth, "IT IS AS IT IS" but in the relative world we have to recognise the cause of our suffering, and deal with it kindly.

If the ego is stubborn and we have very close relationship with an authentic teacher, then the crazy wisdom hammer can come out, to crack the ego 'nut'!
And, that has to be done to the right person, at the right, at the right time, in the right place. It is the pointing out instruction.

Too many new gurus use the right words, at the wrong time, and their followers do the same thing!

Oh, the times Kathie and I have been in meetings, and have this creepy thing come over us.
However, I have had the hammer treatment, and it was very painful, but worked.




Tony

Dancerrose
23rd December 2012, 11:20
"Make no mistake about it--enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better, or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretense. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true"--ADYASHANTI




I know what I want to say here but I’m struggling for the right words. Please don’t be offended at my meagre efforts to put my thoughts down here.

Something happens smack in the middle of our awakening - we see the world, we see the pain and suffering, and we feel helpless to do anything about it.

Thankfully we move beyond that. We come to see the world as a great big life lesson for everyone and that we have no right to interfere with other people’s lessons. It’s all about personal and spiritual growth - rising above it all.

It‘s more about what we let go of than it is to do with what we take on.


It’s not about right or wrong, better than or worse than. It’s not about what level you’re at or what rung on the spiritual ladder you’re on. It’s a very personal and very spiritual journey for each of us.

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 11:23
Its a cosmic joke but not laughable.
What if there is no self to remove the illusion of individual self?
Then if that is so, it would appear that the more effort that is seemingly made the more there is the thought that there is an individual me doing the work.
The spiritual ego is then strengthened immensely.

Ramesh Balsekar said that " The biggest obstacle to enlightenment is the thought that I am the doer"
I am the the this, the that, removing obstacles to enlightenment.
The me doing is the biggest obstacle.
However the paradox is that Meditation and true self enquiry (What am I?) is very helpful.

Chris

Dancerrose
23rd December 2012, 11:30
We have to get out of our own way. Yes?

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 11:40
We have to get out of our own way. Yes?

Yes thats it.
You can do anything you are drawn to do but you dont take credit for any end result.
Its as though you are fully aware in the moment and see yourself acting out the play of consciousness.
There is the knowing that the action and actor are not what you truly are.
Best wishes
Chris

binemaya
23rd December 2012, 14:10
I don´t know about enlightenment but the only way I survive this hard life is believing and knowing and feeling that there is truth and joy and love.
:music: and for instance music always reminds me that there is.... :-)

Dancerrose
23rd December 2012, 15:59
In other words, it’s like there’s a script we wrote or agreed to follow a long time ago but we have forgotten about it and some part of us realises this and works to ‘nudge’ us back onto our path of personal and spiritual development. The feeling for me sometimes, during meditation, is that we have a lot of growing - a lot of maturing - to do before we can rise above this world - this dimension. We are more than these bodies. I hope that doesn’t sound too weird.

truthseekerdan
23rd December 2012, 16:41
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and leaves one with a sense of relief.

Dear Toni, hope you know by now that the best teachers teach from the heart, not from the book.

Hope this helps...


Much Love & Wisdom

truthseekerdan
23rd December 2012, 17:13
We have to get out of our own way. Yes?

Yes, it does not come from the mind (lower mind (http://www.higherawareness.com/growth-tools/bridging-higher-to-lower-mind.html)). Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment.


1ChPAO9AYzI

DeDukshyn
23rd December 2012, 19:43
What I see in this is a massive perversion of the term "Enlightenment", and I also see how this perversion of true enlightenment is serving the PTB.

Twist the understanding of a term until lit no longer means to many what it's intended meaning is, then demonize it and watch the minions (knowingly or unknowingly) do the rest of the work.

Same thing happened with "New Age" over the last 70 years. Icke claims that the CIA "invented it" -- er, no, but they did pervert and adulterate the term, exactly the same process has come about.

I do not have the same definition of enlightenment as what is used to demonize it.
So tell me, what is this definition of enlightenment, from the way and enlightened person views it, compared to how it is defined for the context of this thread?

Food for thought ;)

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 19:55
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

DeDukshyn
23rd December 2012, 20:53
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Enlighten means literally, to "bring light to". So it simply means to have an expanded awareness to be able to "see" a larger picture where previously it could not be seen. That's about it! ;)

Of course from there I could go into examples with details about the quantum physics / consciousness connection and how that relates to physical world, because as you realize the connection between consciousness and matter, you suddenly get a clearer perception about the nature of reality -- like a "light" that was cast in the darkness that prevented previous understanding -- "enlightenment". This is one example, that fits into the simple definition. Enlightenment is not an event, but a "path" of ever expanding that awareness.

People think (or have been led to believe) that it is a religious or spiritual term -- but it is not. Religion, I found, brings little enlightenment, or just enough to keep you there and tithing, and (true) spirituality starts to become prevalent via the process of enlightenment, as when that light expands to reveal the field of view wide enough you can see clearly the mind / matter / "heart" / ego connection, which all true spirituality is based around.

The definition is very simple, and even science can and does "enlighten" people to certain extents.

I can't imagine what definition has been force fed that would imply the word means anything otherwise.

That's my two cents worth. ;)

Godiam
23rd December 2012, 20:54
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and leaves one with a sense of relief.

Well, To Me, Happiness is not found by realising 'something' But by making the Choice to be Happy!

A destuctive force isn't always a negative thing!

HUGS..........Godiam

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 20:57
I've seen Mr A at work.
He just says, "IT IS AS IT IS", to a woman who was having a terrible time. She was crying, and he just says, "IT IS AS IT IS".
In truth, "IT IS AS IT IS" but in the relative world we have to recognise the cause of our suffering, and deal with it kindly.

If the ego is stubborn and we have very close relationship with an authentic teacher, then the crazy wisdom hammer can come out, to crack the ego 'nut'!
And, that has to be done to the right person, at the right, at the right time, in the right place. It is the pointing out instruction.

Too many new gurus use the right words, at the wrong time, and their followers do the same thing!

Oh, the times Kathie and I have been in meetings, and have this creepy thing come over us.
However, I have had the hammer treatment, and it was very painful, but worked.




Tony

Yes timing and context is everything!

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 21:01
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Enlighten means literally, to "bring light to". So it simply means to have an expanded awareness to be able to "see" a larger picture where previously it could not be seen. That's about it! ;)

Of course from there I could go into examples with details about the quantum physics / consciousness connection and how that relates to physical world, because as you realize the connection between consciousness and matter, you suddenly get a clearer perception about the nature of reality -- like a "light" that was cast in the darkness that prevented previous understanding -- "enlightenment". This is one example, that fits into the simple definition. Enlightenment is not an event, but a "path" of ever expanding that awareness.

People think (or have been led to believe) that it is a religious or spiritual term -- but it is not. Religion, I found, brings little enlightenment, or just enough to keep you there and tithing, and (true) spirituality starts to become prevalent via the process of enlightenment, as when that light expands to reveal the field of view wide enough you can see clearly the mind / matter / "heart" / ego connection, which all spirituality is based around.

The definition is very simple, and even science can and does "enlighten" people to certain extents.

I can't imagine what definition has been force fed that would imply the word means anything otherwise.

That's my two cents worth. ;)

Yes but many spiritual teachings have layers of meaning. Then we have divine dichotomy, paradoxes, and all the rest. I agree, of course, with your definition, but that's not the end of it. When one brings light to something, the light transforms it. This is the light of God that transforms the world.

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 21:02
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Enlighten means literally, to "bring light to". So it simply means to have an expanded awareness to be able to "see" a larger picture where previously it could not be seen. That's about it! ;)

Of course from there I could go into examples with details about the quantum physics / consciousness connection and how that relates to physical world, because as you realize the connection between consciousness and matter, you suddenly get a clearer perception about the nature of reality -- like a "light" that was cast in the darkness that prevented previous understanding -- "enlightenment". This is one example, that fits into the simple definition. Enlightenment is not an event, but a "path" of ever expanding that awareness.

People think (or have been led to believe) that it is a religious or spiritual term -- but it is not. Religion, I found, brings little enlightenment, or just enough to keep you there and tithing, and (true) spirituality starts to become prevalent via the process of enlightenment, as when that light expands to reveal the field of view wide enough you can see clearly the mind / matter / "heart" / ego connection, which all spirituality is based around.

The definition is very simple, and even science can and does "enlighten" people to certain extents.

I can't imagine what definition has been force fed that would imply the word means anything otherwise.

That's my two cents worth. ;)

Yes I agree---its the removal of ignorance---things are seen clearly and the process is on going.
There are paradoxes but that's the essence of it.
Thanks

chris

Tony
23rd December 2012, 21:05
Isn't e n l i g h t e n m e n t clarity?

Tony

PS There was once a time when I thought everything was special and holy, and i took everything very seriously. A Tibetan lama gave me a small piece of blue paper, and I took it as a spiritual gesture - as it was a blank piece of paper. I asked what signified, and he said, "To write my phone number down on." At the moment, all my holiness was destroyed...;) don't we tie ourselves in knots, eh?

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 21:10
I'd have to disagree with ADYASHANTI, realising 'something' does make one happier, feel more confident, and leaves one with a sense of relief.

Well, To Me, Happiness is not found by realising 'something' But by making the Choice to be Happy!

A destuctive force isn't always a negative thing!

HUGS..........Godiam

I can actually agree with both statements here. This is the divine dichotomy I mentioned. One can actually have two apparent opposites exist simultaneously. I agree that realising something, even if that something is very ugly, gives one a positive sense of understanding it and thus transcending it in a sense. At the same time, one can feel sad or discouraged by that same realization. Who says the two can't be true at once?

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Isn't e n l i g h t e n m e n t clarity?

Tony
Yes light always brings clarity.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Isn't e n l i g h t e n m e n t clarity?

Tony

PS There was once a time when I thought everything was special and holy, and i took everything very seriously. A Tibetan lama gave me a small piece of blue paper, and I took it as a spiritual gesture - as it was a blank piece of paper. I asked what signified, and he said, "To write my phone number down on." At the moment, all my holiness was destroyed...;) don't we tie ourselves in knots, eh?

Ha ha ha!!!

DeDukshyn
23rd December 2012, 21:10
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Enlighten means literally, to "bring light to". So it simply means to have an expanded awareness to be able to "see" a larger picture where previously it could not be seen. That's about it! ;)

Of course from there I could go into examples with details about the quantum physics / consciousness connection and how that relates to physical world, because as you realize the connection between consciousness and matter, you suddenly get a clearer perception about the nature of reality -- like a "light" that was cast in the darkness that prevented previous understanding -- "enlightenment". This is one example, that fits into the simple definition. Enlightenment is not an event, but a "path" of ever expanding that awareness.

People think (or have been led to believe) that it is a religious or spiritual term -- but it is not. Religion, I found, brings little enlightenment, or just enough to keep you there and tithing, and (true) spirituality starts to become prevalent via the process of enlightenment, as when that light expands to reveal the field of view wide enough you can see clearly the mind / matter / "heart" / ego connection, which all spirituality is based around.

The definition is very simple, and even science can and does "enlighten" people to certain extents.

I can't imagine what definition has been force fed that would imply the word means anything otherwise.

That's my two cents worth. ;)

Yes but many spiritual teachings have layers of meaning. Then we have divine dichotomy, paradoxes, and all the rest. I agree, of course, with your definition, but that's not the end of it. When one brings light to something, the light transforms it. This is the light of God that transforms the world.

I somewhat agree with this -- but did not go that far. For I see the definition simple, but the implications of attaining that larger picture are extremely grand in considerations of the Mind / matter / "heart" / ego connection.

But the definition in my view -- is the expansion of that awareness; it is a single word trying to carry a plethora of meanings in the modern sense. I reduce the meaning to one that envelopes all it's implications, due to the lack of distinction in terms ;)

Freed Fox
23rd December 2012, 21:15
...
That's my two cents worth. ;)

I agree with your definition, I think. I might go even further by saying that Religion (particularly in organized forms) can actually be an impediment when seeking 'enlightenment'. Science can be as well, if one adheres to it as their dogma (consider how often science must revise its own models and conceptualizations in light of new discoveries and advancements).
I've also read the musings of certain individuals (unnamed) who seem to imply a certain enlightened perspective, but simultaneously sound far too certain of themselves to be anything of the sort.

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 21:29
...
That's my two cents worth. ;)

I agree with your definition, I think. I might go even further by saying that Religion (particularly in organized forms) can actually be an impediment when seeking 'enlightenment'. Science can be as well, if one adheres to it as their dogma (consider how often science must revise its own models and conceptualizations in light of new discoveries and advancements).
I've also read the musings of certain individuals (unnamed) who seem to imply a certain enlightened perspective, but simultaneously sound far too certain of themselves to be anything of the sort.

I couldn't agree more with your last statement there. One must be ready to drop ones 'truth' at a moments notice, in light of a higher understanding, a clearer picture.

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 21:42
Without wishing to muddy the water.
Quantum physics is now proving what the mystics of ancient times said is true.
The space in the atom( 99.9%) is where the intelligence lies---the vacuum is not empty.
The space that joins every thing and unites everything is the field in which the formless materialises.
The mystics say that we are the field in which everything comes into being.
We are holographic we are contained in everything and everything is within us.
We are both form and formless and neither.
The mind cant get that.
However that's another story so to speak.

Chris

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 21:45
...
That's my two cents worth. ;)

I agree with your definition, I think. I might go even further by saying that Religion (particularly in organized forms) can actually be an impediment when seeking 'enlightenment'. Science can be as well, if one adheres to it as their dogma (consider how often science must revise its own models and conceptualizations in light of new discoveries and advancements).
I've also read the musings of certain individuals (unnamed) who seem to imply a certain enlightened perspective, but simultaneously sound far too certain of themselves to be anything of the sort.

I couldn't agree more with your last statement there. One must be ready to drop ones 'truth' at a moments notice, in light of a higher understanding, a clearer picture.

Yes you must be prepared to let go of everything that you thought was true.
Chris

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 21:48
Without wishing to muddy the water.
Quantum physics is now proving what the mystics of ancient times said is true.
The space in the atom( 99.9%) is where the intelligence lies---the vacuum is not empty.
The space that joins every thing and unites everything is the field in which the formless materialises.
The mystics say that we are the field in which everything comes into being.
We are holographic we are contained in everything and everything is within us.
We are both form and formless and neither.
The mind cant get that.
However that's another story so to speak.

Chris

I love that stuff! Hey Chris, could you recommend a good book that merges quantum physics and spiritual teachings? What do you think of Danny Deutsch's books?

greybeard
23rd December 2012, 21:55
Without wishing to muddy the water.
Quantum physics is now proving what the mystics of ancient times said is true.
The space in the atom( 99.9%) is where the intelligence lies---the vacuum is not empty.
The space that joins every thing and unites everything is the field in which the formless materialises.
The mystics say that we are the field in which everything comes into being.
We are holographic we are contained in everything and everything is within us.
We are both form and formless and neither.
The mind cant get that.
However that's another story so to speak.

Chris

I love that stuff! Hey Chris, could you recommend a good book that merges quantum physics and spiritual teachings? What do you think of Danny Deutsch's books?

Im not great on books these days--- I find listening to audio/videos with wireless head phones easier.
However the late Dr David Hawkins "Power vs Force" combines spirituality and science up to a point.

This video is very thought provoking and ma well be helpful

Regards Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

Youniverse
23rd December 2012, 21:59
Ok thanks, that's good. I enjoy the videos/audios as well!

DeDukshyn
23rd December 2012, 22:07
Without wishing to muddy the water.
Quantum physics is now proving what the mystics of ancient times said is true.
The space in the atom( 99.9%) is where the intelligence lies---the vacuum is not empty.
The space that joins every thing and unites everything is the field in which the formless materialises.
The mystics say that we are the field in which everything comes into being.
We are holographic we are contained in everything and everything is within us.
We are both form and formless and neither.
The mind cant get that.
However that's another story so to speak.

Chris

It could be a whole thread ;)

Funny sync ... I was just being reminded of this again yesterday. As well, Miguel Ruiz says in reference of ancient Toltec heritage the exact same thing -- very clearly, his reference was Nagual, for the "space", and Tonal for the "creation", with the coincidence of tonal referring to vibration / sound. The ancients knew quantum physics better than us. ;)

Warlock
24th December 2012, 00:17
First of all, I would like to thank all of you for your comments and input.

I posted this last night in frustration, as it has been one of those periods of time culminating with that horrible school shooting in which I was just fed up with the lies concerning that incident, after reading some articles describing the discrepancies between what may have happened as to what did happen.

I just started thinking off the top of my head, and had to get it out.

Even though I didn't include Sandy Hook, that's what finally set me off.

Warlock

Dancerrose
24th December 2012, 10:40
I do not have the same definition of enlightenment as what is used to demonize it.
So tell me, what is this definition of enlightenment, from the way and enlightened person views it, compared to how it is defined for the context of this thread?


This doesn't answer your question but it simplifies things for me.

The word ‘Awakening’ sits more comfortably with me. The reality of my awakening can be documented by me.

I can become enlightened or more enlightened by a particular concept or new information. To have Spiritual Enlightenment or to reach Spiritual Enlightenment is a concept beyond my grasp. Therefore (for me) the more enlightened I become the more Awake I become.

Dancerrose
24th December 2012, 10:51
PS There was once a time when I thought everything was special and holy, and i took everything very seriously. A Tibetan lama gave me a small piece of blue paper, and I took it as a spiritual gesture - as it was a blank piece of paper. I asked what signified, and he said, "To write my phone number down on." At the moment, all my holiness was destroyed... don't we tie ourselves in knots, eh?


A fantastic reminder that it's really quite simple and we make it complicated. :)

DeDukshyn
27th December 2012, 22:53
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Although you have a few years on me, I always assume our definitions and distinctions are similar. I started my "journey" very young so I feel a bit "old school" when it comes to these things. My rant was perhaps a bit of an exaggerated reaction to the slow and subtle changing of definition of terms that seems to always be happening which is diluting the understanding of spirituality and spiritual concepts. That then creates misinformation disguised as opposition; it was a general rant that partially applied to this thread.

"Removal of ignorance" is a compact way to put it ;)

greybeard
27th December 2012, 23:19
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Although you have a few years on me, I always assume our definitions and distinctions are similar. I started my "journey" very young so I feel a bit "old school" when it comes to these things. My rant was perhaps a bit of an exaggerated reaction to the slow and subtle changing of definition of terms that seems to always be happening which is diluting the understanding of spirituality and spiritual concepts. That then creates misinformation disguised as opposition; it was a general rant that partially applied to this thread.

"Removal of ignorance" is a compact way to put it ;)

We do as best we can to explain what cant be spoken of.
Definition because they are concepts can only point.
I agree with your post-- I would say its too simple for the mind to get, so keeps changing definition in the hope of finding something it can understand.

Ramana said " Use the thorn to extract the thorn then throw both away" So the intellect is used to remove ego mind the both are let go of.

Still work in progress with me.

Regards Chris

Beren
28th December 2012, 00:11
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Although you have a few years on me, I always assume our definitions and distinctions are similar. I started my "journey" very young so I feel a bit "old school" when it comes to these things. My rant was perhaps a bit of an exaggerated reaction to the slow and subtle changing of definition of terms that seems to always be happening which is diluting the understanding of spirituality and spiritual concepts. That then creates misinformation disguised as opposition; it was a general rant that partially applied to this thread.

"Removal of ignorance" is a compact way to put it ;)

We do as best we can to explain what cant be spoken of.
Definition because they are concepts can only point.
I agree with your post-- I would say its too simple for the mind to get, so keeps changing definition in the hope of finding something it can understand.

Ramana said " Use the thorn to extract the thorn then throw both away" So the intellect is used to remove ego mind the both are let go of.

Still work in progress with me.

Regards Chris

"Who wants to live forever when love must die"
Freddie sang this long ago. It`s a tough concept to grasp (enlightenment) when all thoughts are bent to the "finite" Love.
Or as better stated- our concept and fear of Love being finite.

The very moment we realize that Love is not finite- we are enlightened.

DeDukshyn
28th December 2012, 00:15
DeDukshyn
It might be helpful if you give your definition.
Who knows it might be the same as mine.

Regards Chris

Although you have a few years on me, I always assume our definitions and distinctions are similar. I started my "journey" very young so I feel a bit "old school" when it comes to these things. My rant was perhaps a bit of an exaggerated reaction to the slow and subtle changing of definition of terms that seems to always be happening which is diluting the understanding of spirituality and spiritual concepts. That then creates misinformation disguised as opposition; it was a general rant that partially applied to this thread.

"Removal of ignorance" is a compact way to put it ;)

We do as best we can to explain what cant be spoken of.
Definition because they are concepts can only point.
I agree with your post-- I would say its too simple for the mind to get, so keeps changing definition in the hope of finding something it can understand.

Ramana said " Use the thorn to extract the thorn then throw both away" So the intellect is used to remove ego mind the both are let go of.

Still work in progress with me.

Regards Chris

"Who wants to live forever when love must die"
Freddie sang this long ago. It`s a tough concept to grasp (enlightenment) when all thoughts are bent to the "finite" Love.
Or as better stated- our concept and fear of Love being finite.

The very moment we realize that Love is not finite- we are enlightened.

Well said; and to add, that which we thought was finite love, was not actually love - and we find out what real Love is.

Beren
28th December 2012, 00:22
Well said; and to add, that which we thought was finite love, was not actually love - and we find out what real Love is.

Exactly!
There is a great line in that song where in the second half of the song (after he asks who wants to live forever when love must die): "but touch my tears with your lips, touch my voice with your fingertips and we can have forever and we can love forever, forever is ours today-who waits forever anyway."

An awesome showcase of the opposites. First there was a division from Source (Love) and in that division one perceives death but in second- there is a turning point where "but touch my tears with your lips" comes in meaning that a loving soul touches your tears (fears and sadness) with their lips (with their being which is made of Love) and your first conception of Love being finite-disappears.

Separation from Love brings fear and its fruit and union in love brings everlasting Love!
:)