(Scientific) Evidence for What's Coming [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

smat

27th March 2010, 21:01

Here is an e-mail message I wrote to my mate regarding this article:-
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Hi Billy, here is one theory that you will find an interesting read.
I am a skeptic, but I am also have an open mind.
Imagine if the governments know something that we don't and information like this may need to be leaked out bit by bit.

This long article joins the dots together, I'm only part way through it, but indications are that things may be happening sometime after June this year.
So from the original planet X theories, to the galactic alignment theories to the passing through galactic plain theories, to asteroids, pole shifts, magnetic pole reversals, earth changes, new world order, global awakening, evolution in consciousness, bird flu, swine flu, global warming, ice age, the day after tomorrow, CME's from the sun, quiet sun, earthquakes, tsunamis, EMP's losing our power grid, global economic collapse, H.A.R.R.P. , secret societies, suppression of earths history, population explosion, peak oil theory, alien disclosure, economic warfare, cold war, hot war, break up of America, Project Camelot, illigitimate president, bail outs, TARP, quantitative easing, revolutions, insurrections, inflation, deflation, break up of the European Union, collapse of the dollar, collapse of the Euro, collapse of grease, a global debt default, free energy, suppressed technologies, web bots,codex alamantatious, google street view, doomsday seed bank, New York, twin towers and the meaning of the tower Tarrot card, concrete jungle where dreams are made of, corporate controlled media, power struggle, russia today, Astronomical Precession of the equinox and 2012, the great year (or 26000 year cycle), dawn of a new age, order out of chaos, nazification of America, obama care, looting of pension funds, hidden in hollywood, false flag terror attacks, war in the middle east, global terrorism, tacions, 2012 Apocalypse, end of days, police state, water on the moon, the norway spiral, obama's nobel peace prize, the kill shot from the sun, star gates, andromidans, orions, reptilians, anunaki, giants, sumaria, atlantis, 2001 a space odecy, 2010 the year we made contact, ancient pyramids, lost civilisations, hidden knowledge, library of Alexandria, the davinci code, 9-11 truth, life on mars, water on the moon, collapse of earths magnetic field, the shrinking heliosphere of the sun, merkabah the chariot of ascension, inter dimensional, extra terrestrial, the coldest winter, the weather report of this summer (the hottest on Record)... questions, questions questions.... who needs to watch the drivel on propagandized tv and the low vibrational mind numbing people on radio one teaching people how to talk and act stupid and worship celebrities, knowing, the secret, birds falling out of the sky, plane crashes, satellite colisions, nuclear sub colisions, the g5, g6, g20, jay z, the rocker fellas, the dot com bubble, housing bubble , bail out bubble, rigging of the stock market, gold suppression, interest to privately owned banks for creating money out of thin air and devaluing our currencies using gambling derivatives and fractional reserve banking, the fall of the federal reserve, increase in food prices, food shortages, bank foreclosures, conspiracy theorists, time travel, jump gates, crop circles, ufo's, GMT, universal time, the sun earth moon connection, 365.24 days a year, 365.24 cubits in length of one side of the great pyramid, hyper dimensional physics, structures on the moon and mars, mars the god of war, the 2012 surprise, the alien agenda,

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1023724/pg1
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Thanks for posting this article, it is very interesting,
I am trying my best to wake up my friends, how can they be more interested in watching football and coronation street that possibly the biggest event ever in earth's history.

love smat

MorningSong

27th March 2010, 22:08

Wow smat! That is some list you've got there!

Makes me wonder How In The World are there so many people that are still asleep????

NorthernSanctuary

27th March 2010, 22:45

"..Makes me wonder How In The World are there so many people that are still asleep????"

They won't be sleep for long. From Cliff's latest info, there is a big drop in Internet info next Oct/2011... probably the internet will be down at that point.

smat

28th March 2010, 00:21

hi guys, I've been reading through this wonderful info that has been linked to in this thread, I love the bit about the sun being a great vacuum with a plasma shell... thus explains the color of the sunspots, but the thing that did really blow me away was 'The Wave' , I got through chapter one of 42 chapters and wow it is like revealing the secrets of the universe, everything you could ever wish to know seems to be in them chapters.... I recommend using firefox and installing an add on called 'scrapbook' and get all this valuable information documented on your pc.

Here is a link to chapter 1.. the rest follows, and THANK YOU op for starting this thread.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/wave_i.htm

Steven

28th March 2010, 01:15

Hi everyone. I am reading it and have some clarification to bring about the power grid. I am EE and working for a large electrical power company. My mother tongue is french, so I may make some mistake in technical terms. It already happened in my country in 1989 and we took the steps to ensure the intelligent protection relays would resist another EMP. I am not saying a large EMP is not a problem, it always depends on its magnitude and the length of time it hits the power grid. But, I will try to clarify some questions.

Quote: "Again, this is out there. Days. There is a 'domino' effect because of how our electrical grid is designed. It has safeguards which actually take it down - in segments - automatically in order to keep from frying things... These automatic protection are made with a part that take a portion of monitoring on the electrical line (tension and current) and bring it to computer like relays which have algorithm to "open" the line with breakers if a problem occurs.These intelligent relays are made of small microchips sensitive to EMP, (NOT THE POWER LINE COMPONENTS WHICH ARE MADE FOR INTENSE POWER AND HEAT)If these intelligent relays are not metalically surrounded and grounded, their DC components may heat and be damaged from an EMP, so by default, it opens up the line and the current won't circulate until the relay is or repaired, or replaced, or simply bypassed.Old electromagnetic relays are still in place and will be the best protection because they do not have DC components like microchips. New intelligent relays are well protected, many have a Faraday cage like surrounding which is also grounded and will be efficient against EMP. But, there are many cheap relays protection that can be fragile against EMP. Still, if a major breakdown happens because of poor relays protection, they can be bypassed and the current can flow on a power line without automatic protection in emergency case. but the components of what those automatic systems are supposed to protect are not protected from EMP and/or huge static loads to ground. I'm not an EE so not sure what that means. So when the system tries to protect itself - it can cascade - quickly. But if certain parts of the system get damaged - again this is out there - then it can take years to replace them. I really doubt it.Maybe months and still, after few weeks, the most important electrical needs can be reestablished, like hospitals for example. Problem is, the companies who make this stuff don't have enough raw materials on hand - right now - to make them all. Once again, these protections are not necessary in emergency case to make the power line to function. Some of them don't even have back up power sources.... they are 'commercial' suppliers ! Think about it. Really think about it."

What could be a very grave scenario would be that the power line components, like MegaVars transformers, high tension breakers, or power central alternators would be damaged by the EMP. These large components would take years to be replaced. But if this happens, all life would be fried.The distribution network, from 4KV to 25KV, is more fragile to EMP, but still if an EMP is intense enough to fry the coil of a 50KVars transformer, our body, made of water, would not survive.

An EMP tend to bounce on metallic surface and pass through all other material making them to vibrate at high frequencies, like a microwave with water molecule.

Namaste, Steven

MorningSong

28th March 2010, 15:09

Thanks for your expertise, Steven!

Good to have our own "inside man" to help us understand!

samvado

28th March 2010, 15:53

Here's an investigation from someone that looked into all the latest Scientific (NASA) evidence on what's happening in/to our solar system and the expected impact on the planet. It is consistent and integrates with previous prophecies, photon belt ideas, Px/Nemesis, 2012, evolution of consciousness. Lots of info:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1023724/pg1

I have looked into it, and found this on the godlike-thread:

Astronomers call the cloud we're running into now the Local Interstellar Cloud or "Local Fluff" for short. It's about 30 light years wide and contains a wispy mixture of hydrogen and helium atoms at a temperature of 6000 C. The existential mystery of the Fluff has to do with its surroundings. About 10 million years ago, a cluster of supernovas exploded nearby, creating a giant bubble of million-degree gas. The Fluff is completely surrounded by this high-pressure supernova exhaust and should be crushed or dispersed by it.

whats wrong with this picture?

1.) 10 million years ago the earth was full of high developed life forms, basically the same as today. remember, the dinos bite the dust about 65 million years ago.
IF a SUPERNOVA had exploded "nearby" (within 200 ly), not to mention a CLUSTER of them, we would be DUST, and earth a life-free planet. look here (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2311-supernova-poised-to-go-off-near-earth.html)

2.) if you read WIKI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Interstellar_Cloud) the situation looks much less annoying.
quote: "The Solar System entered the Local Interstellar Cloud at some time between 44,000 and 150,000 years ago and is expected to remain within it for another 10,000 to 20,000 years."

remember, I read about 1% of that post. if I had read on who knows what else someone with decent astronomical knowledge might find....

K626

28th March 2010, 16:12

As I said elsewhere, not so bovvered about da cloud.

Swanny

28th March 2010, 17:12

What do we need to be bovvered about??
What do you think is going to happen and when K?

samvado

28th March 2010, 21:48

double post deleted

samvado

28th March 2010, 21:49

What do we need to be bovvered about??
What do you think is going to happen and when K?

If I may: I would be VERY concerned about a CME coming our way.
If there are no STO aliens out there with enough tech to shield us from such a superstorm our entire grid could possibly melt.
depending on the strength of the CME and the weakness of earth magnetic field it is not unthinkable that EACH & EVERY electric appliance that is not very deep underground (a mile or more) will fry. That means then end of civilisation for a VERY long time, longer than most of us will probably live. There will be no repair crews to fix things, no factories to build spares, no cars to transport them, no radio to communicate & coordinate. its basically wild west with better weapons and less food.

OK, maybe I have painted it a bit too bleak, but maybe not, it all depends on the factors mentioned above.

K626

28th March 2010, 21:58

If I may: I would be VERY concerned about a CME coming our way.
If there are no STO aliens out there with enough tech to shield us from such a superstorm our entire grid could possibly melt.
depending on the strength of the CME and the weakness of earth magnetic field it is not unthinkable that EACH & EVERY electric appliance that is not very deep underground (a mile or more) will fry. That means then end of civilisation for a VERY long time, longer than most of us will probably live. There will be no repair crews to fix things, no factories to build spares, no cars to transport them, no radio to communicate & coordinate. its basically wild west with better weapons and less food.

OK, maybe I have painted it a bit too bleak, but maybe not, it all depends on the factors mentioned above.

The cooling and venting systems of nuclear power stations would also be a major worry. France would be the last place to be.

Solphilos

28th March 2010, 22:03

The global-grid failure, wild west scenario would not a be big concern to me; during such a scenario will be plenty of "order" waiting in underground facilities with technologies we can only dream about, waiting for the perfect time to reestablish rule, under perhaps a new banner of course. Perhaps this is what their New World Order is all about.

samvado

28th March 2010, 22:08

The cooling and venting systems of nuclear power stations would also be a major worry. France would be the last place to be.

happy at least one other human being shares my concern. I have asked questions in various physics forums and where laughted out of them.
all I wanted to know was "do they shut down by gravity alone" which could be done easily, considering the rods are hanging from the ceiling (somewhat), but alas, it has not been considered.

I could not find anything in english google but the german wiki has this entry:

Auch ein abgeschaltetes Kernkraftwerk ist auf die Versorgung mit elektrischer Energie angewiesen, beispielsweise zur Aufrechterhaltung der Kühlung und für die Instrumentierung und Überwachung. Im Normalfall wird der Bedarf aus dem öffentlichen Energieversorgungsnetz gedeckt. Ist das nicht möglich, laufen Notstromaggregate an.

it basically confirms we are f*cked should the CME be strong enough to fry the emergency power supply.

maybe this would be 20 bucks well spent: http://www.new.ans.org/store/photosrc/l_690055

all of a sudden real-estate in the southern sahara looks quite inviting <g>

Swanny

29th March 2010, 08:27

If I may: I would be VERY concerned about a CME coming our way.
If there are no STO aliens out there with enough tech to shield us from such a superstorm our entire grid could possibly melt.
depending on the strength of the CME and the weakness of earth magnetic field it is not unthinkable that EACH & EVERY electric appliance that is not very deep underground (a mile or more) will fry. That means then end of civilisation for a VERY long time, longer than most of us will probably live. There will be no repair crews to fix things, no factories to build spares, no cars to transport them, no radio to communicate & coordinate. its basically wild west with better weapons and less food.

OK, maybe I have painted it a bit too bleak, but maybe not, it all depends on the factors mentioned above.

Apart from the nuclear power stations it sounds good to me :)

Swanny

29th March 2010, 08:28

If I may: I would be VERY concerned about a CME coming our way.
If there are no STO aliens out there with enough tech to shield us from such a superstorm our entire grid could possibly melt.
depending on the strength of the CME and the weakness of earth magnetic field it is not unthinkable that EACH & EVERY electric appliance that is not very deep underground (a mile or more) will fry. That means then end of civilisation for a VERY long time, longer than most of us will probably live. There will be no repair crews to fix things, no factories to build spares, no cars to transport them, no radio to communicate & coordinate. its basically wild west with better weapons and less food.

OK, maybe I have painted it a bit too bleak, but maybe not, it all depends on the factors mentioned above.

Apart from the nuclear power stations it sounds good to me :)

john.d

29th March 2010, 08:57

Apart from the nuclear power stations it sounds good to me :)

The only thing is , if it did go belly up here in the uk . You are never very far from a power station or hoardes of hungry people .Half of me thinks just sit tight because benevolent et's wouldnt let that happen so close to the end of the cycle . The other half thinks i should emigrate to New Zealand :)
Its good to be prepaired but maybe we are buying too much into the fear thing ? Maybe a water filter , wood stove, non perishables and garden will do ?
I think we are all agreed that a big cme is comming in the near future though . My intuition tells me to be prepaired for one and the more i read , the more it seems inevitable .

John

John

Swanny

29th March 2010, 09:23

IF it does get bad...

The hoards of hungry people don't worry me too much. There are still places that are too far away from people to make it worth their while going to have a look. By the time they have given up on the idea of the government coming to help them they will have run out of petrol or the CME will have killed their cars so they won't be out driving around looking for food.
I've already spotted a few hard to reach places with good water supplies to head for. :cool:
The towns and cities will be horrible places.

South Island of New Zealand is probably the best place to head for.

Definitely don't think that ET's will save us.
They didn't worry about the Tsunami or the people of Haiti
I imagine if they were to do anything they would let most of us die then move in

john.d

29th March 2010, 09:38

IF it does get bad...

South Island of New Zealand is probably the best place to head for.

Definitely don't think that ET's will save us

Why south island ? I was looking at the north .......

There are lots of sightings of ufo's at the mo . Maybe they are already doing things to help ? Maybe thats what the sphere's around the sun are doing ? Gawd knows :)

John

blue777

29th March 2010, 09:53

stardustaquarion

29th March 2010, 10:48

Godlikeproductions is not the most serious of places in my oppinion, they may have gathered data but in the time I followed their "whiselblowers" and other data NOTHING of what they said was going to happen has happened. There is a man in youtube, Mike, (feveriam) that totally bought into it and did many videos about a group from the catholic church and what will happen and how the economy will collapse within three months. We are still here.... more than a year later

I do know beneficial ETs exist and I know we are being assisted, we will not be saved from our own irresponsibility but we are being assisted within what free will allows, we can buy into the fear (and buy into the illuminati agenda) or we can raise our vibration to avert earth changes for nothing is stronger in the universe than the power of unconditional love

Earth is our home, we can care for it or we can ignore it. If we do not unite and start thinking as comunity we are truly stuffed

Worse case escenario, I live in the UK too and I have seen great demostrations of self organization and courage, I don't think people here will expect much from governments. I have no doubt that there will be a bit of panic at the begining but when things settle people knows how to organize themselves. One of the great advantages of living in the UK is that we have no fire arms, we have plenty water and we have the sea, we already have LETS and local currencies systems, local farmers markets all running parallel to the current monetary systems.

Focusing in what we want rather than in what we don't can create enormous change. I don't say ignore reality, but most of what comes as "the latest panic" is never reality and never comes to pass. I have made preparations too but we can not stop living just because someone says something is going to happen

Remeber 2003 when Toya said that there was going to be pole shift? and planet X. This is 2010 we are still here

My other argument will be why, if it was a done deal, the illuminati Holywood is putting so much effort into make us "dream" the reality they desire? It is because IT IS NOT a done deal and we can still shift those apocalyptic escenarios. Probabilities change, all the time forward and backwards

Peace

K626

29th March 2010, 10:56

How will this effect our nuclear power stations?
lol

Proabably best not to be living in France at the time.

K626

29th March 2010, 10:57

mike1414

29th March 2010, 11:57

If I may: I would be VERY concerned about a CME coming our way.
If there are no STO aliens out there with enough tech to shield us from such a superstorm our entire grid could possibly melt
Tunguska....

imo we should individually only really try to concern or think about our own choices and decisions where we are the centres of our own universes....we could spend time thinking about an infinate amount of game over possibilites and scenarios that could maybe potentially if only only if hopefully not happen when we could spend time thinking and trying to understand that i/we are the star performer and producer of this stage we/i call life and not merely an overcharged spectator with a box of popcorn...(salted or sweet...im not fussy, i like both)
we should follow our hearts and do only what feels right now with the best of intentions at the heart of our choices...the future will unfold just as it was always supposed to...

peace always
mike

Swanny

29th March 2010, 12:50

My other argument will be why, if it was a done deal, the illuminati Holywood is putting so much effort into make us "dream" the reality they desire? It is because IT IS NOT a done deal and we can still shift those apocalyptic escenarios. Probabilities change, all the time forward and backwards

Peace
Definately not a done deal. They are putting too much into technology that would be a complete waste of time if things were certain.

Why south island ? I was looking at the north .......

Less people

If it does get bad there won't be any flights to anywhere.

Best to move now if you think you need to.
I wish I had somewhere to go.
Anyone need a lodger??? :)

K626

31st March 2010, 11:16

Think we'll be ok till next summer. But then really some descisions need to be made.

TheRebel

31st March 2010, 12:18

Find the recent interview of Lucus (who's made a great presentation, which can be found on www.the-rabbits-hole.com) and listen what he has to say recently...

Tv9dw2FsEss

bashi

31st March 2010, 15:05

all I wanted to know was "do they shut down by gravity alone" which could be done easily, considering the rods are hanging from the ceiling (somewhat), but alas, it has not been considered.

it basically confirms we are f*cked should the CME be strong enough to fry the emergency power supply.

<g>

The rods are free-falling into the reactor in case of emergency shut down, either automatically or manually. Nothing to worry too much.
Read this:

http://energiewelt.rwe.com/KKW_Texte.pdf

.

samvado

31st March 2010, 15:40

The rods are free-falling into the reactor in case of emergency shut down, either automatically or manually. Nothing to worry too much.
Read this:

that is good news, potentially,.I would feel better if I knew that its default behavior, and "handabschaltung" is no euphemismn for another electrically driven mechanism. in which the "hand" would flip a switch (which would be useless, if absolutely no electricity is there).

so if you have the connection, ask simply what happens if for whatever reason not a single electrical mechanism will work, not even a switch.

I could think of a magnetic holding mechanism that lets the rods go when electr. fails. but there is no telling if anybody ever thought of such a situation (CME).

thanx
best
-sam

bashi

31st March 2010, 16:53

"Die beiden Regelplatten werden von Gleichstrommotoren mit einem Untersetzungsgetriebe angetrieben. Zwischen Regelplatte und Getriebe befindet sich eine magnetische Kupplung. Diese Kupplung löst bei Reaktorschnellabschaltung die Verbindung zwischen beiden Bauteilen, wodurch die Regelplatten von einer Blattfeder in den Reaktor "eingeschossen" werden."
source: http://www.hs-ulm.de/Institut/ISM/FUE/SMT/Forschungsreaktor/

This reactor is built according to general appicable security regulations.
So its not only a gravitational pull, but a spring will shoot the rods/plates inside, if there is no electricity.

samvado

31st March 2010, 17:16

This reactor is built according to general appicable security regulations.
So its not only a gravitational pull, but a spring will shoot the rods/plates inside, if there is no electricity.

thanx bashi, you made my day. lets just pray the french & the one spanish are built to the same specs and I can enjoy a CME in a nice 1850 setting in north spain :-)

bashi

31st March 2010, 17:27

I agree with your concerns about a CME. Maybe i am even more pessimistic. North Spain ? In an unaccessible area/cave?

samvado

31st March 2010, 17:50

I agree with your concerns about a CME. Maybe i am even more pessimistic. North Spain ? In an unaccessible area/cave?

short version: all electricity fails, I jump my bike & stuff I collected for that day and go SOUTH because I cant sustain myself in n.germany for very long (if at all).
I chose spain because I could potentially reach it by bike and I know people there. also: I dislike italy, or rather italians with their mob gangs (already without CME).
the only other options would be greece. I dont like the balkan, thru which I had to pass (or italy). and I dont speak a word greek, and turkey is near, and all the other states I'd rather not be near in such a situation.
I may go on to marocco if I had to. its a nice place, friendly people last time i was there.

why would I need a cave?

bashi

31st March 2010, 18:44

shorter version: elbtunnel is closed, but you managed to take the bridge and head off south. After latest 4-5 days without electricity law and order will brake down, even in law abiding germans. After the 5th day your bicycle will be taken from you by a gang near Aachen. Also all equipment and also your shoes. Good journey !

samvado

31st March 2010, 18:58

well, as I said, short version. the long one would enlighten you towards my strategic planings to avert such a scenario.... :-)

lightblue

31st March 2010, 19:02

duplicate, sorry

lightblue

31st March 2010, 19:04

short version: all electricity fails, I jump my bike & stuff I collected for that day and go SOUTH because I cant sustain myself in n.germany for very long (if at all).
I chose spain because I could potentially reach it by bike and I know people there. also: I dislike italy, or rather italians with their mob gangs (already without CME).
the only other options would be greece. I dont like the balkan, thru which I had to pass (or italy). and I dont speak a word greek, and turkey is near, and all the other states I'd rather not be near in such a situation.
I may go on to marocco if I had to. its a nice place, friendly people last time i was there.

why would I need a cave?

you stick with wherever you say you have friends then...

and don't forget to hold your nose, should you have to pass the balkans on your way tho greece..

p.s. bashi mentions another viable option - a cave..

best wishes to you l

samvado

31st March 2010, 19:17

and don't forget to hold your nose, l

sorry, didnt mean to imply that the balcan is stinking, I just dont like places with too many guns in circulation (I know, its in the constitution for americans, but still, the fewer the better IMO)

Spain has rigid gun laws in case you wondered.

But this is really material for a new thread, if anyone takes it serious enough.

I am off to england for a few days, love to join in later in the week.

ciao
-sam

bashi

31st March 2010, 19:19

Samvado, why not discuss these things in length on a new thread? Like: “The SUPER CME”

high light, nice to see you again. Your balkan-origin speaks out...;)

This thread has gone a bit off topic.
Here some news about the cosmic ribbon:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2010/15jan_ibex2.htm

They managed to stitch a theory together and now all are happy.
I think this ribbon is a “steady state” phenomenon. It is absolutely unlikely that it just developed at a time Humans were able – for the first time officially – to leave the boundaries of this solar system. Of course it is interesting to follow any new findings in this respect, but I think its nothing to worry about. At least not from this angle.

.

Swanny

31st March 2010, 19:21

Why does everyone think you need guns?? I pointy stick can be just as deadly

Man has been killing man long before guns were invented :fencing:

samvado

31st March 2010, 19:23

Why does everyone think you need guns?? I pointy stick can be just as deadly

Man has been killing man long before guns were invented :fencing:

yes, but with my bike I can outrun a pointy stick ...!!

Swanny

31st March 2010, 19:40

Just wobble a bit and they will miss :)

lightblue

31st March 2010, 19:41

yes, but with my bike I can outrun a pointy stick ...!!

i happen to know a thing or two about bikes and i also know that they get nicked - a lot! best wishes l

lightblue

31st March 2010, 19:51

Samvado, why not discuss these things in length on a new thread? Like: “The SUPER CME”

high light, nice to see you again. Your balkan-origin speaks out...

This thread has gone a bit off topic.
Here some news about the cosmic ribbon:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2010/15jan_ibex2.htm

They managed to stitch a theory together and now all are happy.
I think this ribbon is a “steady state” phenomenon. It is absolutely unlikely that it just developed at a time Humans were able – for the first time officially – to leave the boundaries of this solar system. Of course it is interesting to follow any new findings in this respect, but I think its nothing to worry about. At least not from this angle.

hi bashi, good to see you too, at long last...hope you can get this thread back on track..needs some serious frequency upping...

i think you could carry your threads over from AV1..don't ask me how..only, i've noticed that people have done so..

good luck with that

.

bashi

31st March 2010, 19:56

I dont intend to do so. I thought of letting go...

lightblue

31st March 2010, 20:02

please reconsider, we do need as many scientifics as poss...

bashi

31st March 2010, 20:08

The original NASA announcement was indeed scary:

mTnwjd8CF1c&feature=player_embedded

Notice how they are asked about their personal reaction when the data came in and was verified. McComas about his first reaction to the data: “TERROR!!!” (see after 25:00)

rosie

31st March 2010, 20:21

I am hoping the findings from Cern DO open the doorway for a new way of looking at
our solar system, which in turn may actually wake up the masses when they are told of the new findings and how our physicists were wrong in the past, and how they must now re-write all the formulas that they use now.

This, I believe, will be the mother load of information that is so needed at this moment in time.

We will see more people starting to think for themselves, once they realize all is not what it seems to be.

love & light

Latest Press Releases
LHC research programme gets underway 30.03.2010

Geneva, 30 March 2010. Beams collided at 7 TeV in the LHC at 13:06 CEST, marking the start of the LHC research programme. Particle physicists around the world are looking forward to a potentially rich harvest of new physics as the LHC begins its first long run at an energy three and a half times higher than previously achieved at a particle accelerator.

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/

bashi

31st March 2010, 21:27

Hell, how to post a picture?

lightblue

31st March 2010, 22:20

lightblue

31st March 2010, 22:22

duplicate, sorry..

bashi

31st March 2010, 23:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTnwj...layer_embedded

they didn't explain it quite well...how does the ribbon relate to the shrinking helisphere - for example...i may have missed that bit..

not uneventful..

Well, you are not trained to read between the lines of these conferences. The panel had been obviously instructed NOT to spread panic. Tomorrow more...

Myra

1st April 2010, 02:51

and don't forget to hold your nose, should you have to pass the balkans on your way tho greece..

Have you been there?

lightblue

1st April 2010, 18:00

Have you been there?

yes i have

bw l

lightblue

1st April 2010, 18:08

Well, you are not trained to read between the lines of these conferences. The panel had been obviously instructed NOT to spread panic. Tomorrow more..

i noticed they sounded a bit scatty...no i don't know how to read between the lines of this subject...is there a reason to panic?

why not start a new thread if there's a lot more about this? bw l

bashi

1st April 2010, 19:18

No need for a new thread. We are on topic.

Well, I stated that I think it’s a “steady state” phenomenon and posted the video. But obviously nobody watched it alert enough to realize the info presented there does not support my claim. Nobody challenged me… :fish:

lightblue

1st April 2010, 19:50

i don't know what you mean...don't know what a steady stete is..something stable, under control, not to worry about is my gues..but what's not to worry about? the existence of the ribbon and the changing heliosphere?..i watched the video alertly enough and thought it was not as clear as thay tried to make it..i used to think that my education was not up to scratch every time i didn't undestand a scientific talk..now i think if they can't explain it to someone outside the community, it's a bad science..i can beieve that this may have been a controlled topic, but why they bothered putting anything forward then..don't know..l:confused:

bashi

1st April 2010, 20:16

Let me point out things more clearly. If you don’t understand, then please ask, OK? That’s the purpose of this thread.

They are not scatty. Remember these are seasoned scientists, not TV moderators. To use this language, something must be up:

McComas
6:26 : “shocking”
13:27 “shocking”, THREE TIMES!
35:50 “My first reaction was TERROR!”

So let me point out the scary parts:

R. Lallement:
18:33 “Presently our star is crossing a very small interstellar cloud, and this cloud is “shripping”(?) our heliosphere”
20:25 “The solar wind is very weak, its amongst the weakest”
21:56 “our helioshere is very strongly distorted”
23:00 “Lindsay will tell us about our heliosphere and how it is at a comfortable location”

So, lets see whether Linsay Bartolone can explain how comfortable we are really…

L. Bartolone:
24:07 “The suns solar wind actually varies, causes the heliosphere to breath periodically”
25:30 “In the distant past and in the far future - since the heliosphere may change in size and shape - the heliosphere might one day, or maybe in the past, has shrunk down so small, that it is inside Earth’s orbit, exposing the Earth to many more cosmic rays”

WHAT? What are you hinting at Linsay?

L. Bartolone
39:40 “what would really have to happen is that we have to clean out of our current environment and pass into an arena of gas and dust that is much much denser than the part we are currently in and that would cause the heliosphere to shrink in”

Well, is not McComas saying this is exactly what is happening?

McComas:
31:15 “We have observed this really narrow ribbon of strong emissions and lots of particles and lots of neutral atoms coming in”
“The main storm was running right down between them” (Voyager satellites)
“The ribbon is very narrow, has a lot of fine structure in it, meaning that somehow the particles are confined in very very localized regions.”
32:28 “and while the ribbon is there, there is some suggestion that it is slightly different and maybe evolving over the 6 months between what we have published now and the next images. So it is really fascinating to watch this feature potentially change over the years and maybe over the solar cycle.”

Now, that strongly suggests an evolving situation!

Some time ago I actually contacted a member of the research team (not one on stage) and asked whether the ribbon shape is evolving, but did not get an answer.
So what to conclude? Maybe no answer is also an answer, especially if you get the mail through a (monitored) university server.

We are living in very interesting times…

lightblue

1st April 2010, 20:50

thanks for your patience

Now, that strongly suggests an evolving situation!

i get that..

but i don't quite get:
39:40 “what would really have to happen is that we have to clean out of our current environment and pass into an arena of gas and dust that is much much denser than the part we are currently in and that would cause the heliosphere to shrink in”

it doesn't sound a good scenario..what's meant by cleaning out our current environment? if the cleaning out was done, that would cause the heliosphere to compress, shrink?..is a shrunken heliosphere good or bad in relation to earth and other planets? does it allow or not allow a serious passage of harmful cosmic rays? maybe not all cosmic rays are harmful..l

bashi

1st April 2010, 21:04

"Clean out OFF our enviro" means leaving current space enviro (mag. field; radiation; dust densities etc..)
Its just another way to say it.

bashi

1st April 2010, 21:06

i cant post a picture. any help?

lightblue

1st April 2010, 21:18

you go to quick reply or reply to thread button, then above, next to the hyperlink icon, there's another:insert image icon..click on that and a window will pop up..i hope that's what you are after..l

bashi

1st April 2010, 21:42

No , that`s not it. A "manage attachments" button should show up below my reply box, but does not. maybe because i am a "junior". wanted to show you the radiation shielding of the heliosphere. have notified gareth. maybe tomorrow

lightblue

1st April 2010, 21:58

oh, you wanted to insert a picture from file..and you haven't tried going to the far right corner (bottom of reply box) of quick reply which says "go advanced"...once you go advanced, there's a paper clip icon there wich does that..i think..

if not - gareth is really helpful, he helped me turn the cub from b&w to gold..i didn't know what i was doing and how i got it in black and white..

morguana is also great, so is samarkis, i think they are both online now..i'd just pm them..

bashi

1st April 2010, 22:33

thanx. was already wandering about your color change

bashi

5th April 2010, 19:56

..is a shrunken heliosphere good or bad in relation to earth and other planets? does it allow or not allow a serious passage of harmful cosmic rays? maybe not all cosmic rays are harmful..l

Here now finally a schematic of the shielding effect of the Heliosphere against cosmic rays:

Its quite substantial

lightblue

5th April 2010, 20:12

if you say so sir senior....i know no criteria...

looks pretty healthy, hope it keeps that way.. l :happy:

bashi

5th April 2010, 20:31

Yeah, i finally made it to "Senior". The process seems to be like this: After one week you will be reviewed and if you have more than 1-2 posts, then you will be bumped up. I screamed like a junior, but obviously no way arround. No big deal, Richard.

bashi

5th April 2010, 20:47

More on IBEX :
Here is their logo

469

It has nothing to do with some evil horned beast, but with the abbreviation of the name
Interstellar Boundary Explorer and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibex

.

lightblue

5th April 2010, 20:58

so a week is up and all is well

...you replied before i put the question to you..thanks ..l

bashi

5th April 2010, 21:08

They had a prediction of what they were expecting to find, before they got the results. Their expectation was to see something like this:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/asset.php?fid=329&uid=313&d=1270500655

The first pic is the prediction. The second a blow up of the IBEX vid at 13:56

.

lightblue

5th April 2010, 21:14

the ribbon structure is key? must watch that video again..

bashi

5th April 2010, 21:18

Yeah, one of the first keys. Lock at the blow up. Do you see these white areas sandwitched between the red ones?

Lyricus

5th April 2010, 21:18

I've also had a look into this and read through the Godlike Productions threads. I'm confused though.......is it being suggested that the ribbon structure is this fluff cloud as mentioned?

If so how long has it been in our solar system I wonder....? IBEX picked this up recently but could it assumed that there is a possibility that this ribbon typed structure has been present in the heliosphere for greater period of time?

bashi

5th April 2010, 21:25

Thats the great question: Do we have a dynamic situation here? It looks like. See my prvious post detailing the comments in the vid

lightblue

5th April 2010, 21:28

Yeah, one of the first keys. Lock at the blow up. Do you see these white areas sandwitched between the red ones?

i do, yes..fine stripes of white between the red..what does that tell you? :confused:

bashi

5th April 2010, 21:42

This is where the reading went off the chart
These readings were NOT off the chart in low resolution.

lightblue

5th April 2010, 21:53

so what do you think they'd show in low resolution?

bashi

5th April 2010, 22:06

The IBEX has a specific resolution. The results strongly suggests that as much higher the resolution is, the denser some areas of the ribbon become.

Imagine this: You are driving on a very long, straight road. The road stretches for 100 km straight ahead and you can see so far. You stop and take out your instrument which can analyse material in the distance by simply pointing in the direction. But it has a low resolution, it means it does not see so sharp at distance.
You point it at the road, and the instrument tells you something like:
” There is a 100 meter wide band of thin iron dust across the road at the distance of 100 km. “
You wont worry and drive full speed ahead.
At 10 km distance from the cloud your instrument reads: “There is a 10 meter wide band of thicker iron dust across the road”
You wont worry and drive full speed ahead.
At 1 km distance it reads. “ There is a 1 m thick band of iron-“something” across the road.
You continue
At 100 m distance it reads: “ There is a 10 cm VERY dense iron-band across the road
You continue
At 10 m distance you can see the 1 cm thick Iron rope spanning across the road.
Would you continue at full speed?

So you have a thin iron-dust cloud in the beginning, but a massive steel-rope at the end.

You can't transfer this analogy into space, but it is very possible that the densities of some strings in the ribbon are VERY dense plasma. That would not be good news for Earth/Sun, because we will go at full speed through it.

lightblue

5th April 2010, 22:37

great...thanks anyway

:faint:

bashi

5th April 2010, 23:36

Another question is what Voyager 1 or 2 have measured when they moved outside the Helioshere.
They have both missed the storm, flying into areas of space where the densities and effects were 100 to 1000 times less than in the more dense centre of the ribbon.
To get an idea, it will be reasonably assumed that all measured conditions are somehow linear correlated to each other.

That means if Voyager 2 measures a particular density for a particular magnetic field, then a 10 times higher density indicates a 10 times stronger mag. field. This is not a formular, but any approximation of range-values.

So it would be therefor very useful to see in detail what Voyager 1 and 2 have actually measured. This can then be scaled up to the areas of the ribbon where we are heading to.

.

Humble Janitor

6th April 2010, 05:21

Hard to follow along and I don't have the time to read it all. Would appreciate a summary if there is one.

lightblue

6th April 2010, 09:29

So it would be therefor very useful to see in detail what Voyager 1 and 2 have actually measured. This can then be scaled up to the areas of the ribbon where we are heading to.

can the readings be accessed? if so, has anyone analysed? have you? what's likely to happen? thanks.l

HJ, tere's a video a few pages back..

bashi

6th April 2010, 20:25

First, the IBEX completes a complete swath of the sky in 6 months. So the announcement of the next results should be within this month. These new results will bring definite clarity whether we are facing a developing situation or not. Till then I will assume, based on the utterances during the conference, that indeed we have a developing situation. I will purposely exaggerate possible conclusions, not to spread fear, but to open eyes to what is possible. All that might come to pass after the next publication of results, but this eye-opener will enable you to read and understand the next publication and then come to your own conclusions. Even when they try to shroud the results.

494

Second, again the ribbon picture:V1 and V2 are indicating the position of Voyager 1+2. The NOSE is the direction the Sun+Earth are moving.
It can be seen that V1 and V2 are clearly out in the blue. The density at the Nose is at least 2-3 times higher than in V1 and V2. But that number is misleading. Because it says only that in this resolution the density is 2-3 times higher. At higher resolutions we would see that in the Nose-area the number of fine+concentrated ribbons (I will call them ribs now) is 2-3 times higher that at V1/V2. These ribs are to the ribbon like the cloud of iron is to the steel rope (see previous post).

bashi

6th April 2010, 20:39

Here again the picture of the Heliosphere. Please notice the boundary between green and red, the Temination Shock. Thats the interessting boundary. So what happened when V1 orV2 crossed that boundary? Stay tuned ....

495

Also see the ACR (in yellow). That will be explained later.

bashi

6th April 2010, 21:08

The solar wind and its magnetic field are the driving factors of the protective nature of the Heliosphere.
When Voyager 2 reached the Termination Shock in 2007, one important feature was the solar wind. You can see here that the solar wind dropped abruptly from 400 km/sec to less than 150 km/sec. That is explained with a kind of “mass loading” of the wind.

502

In the Nose region of the ribbon, with much higher densities, we can expect the solar wind to cease.

.

lightblue

6th April 2010, 21:21

blanc post, my mistake, sorry..

bashi

6th April 2010, 21:54

Now to the magnetic field at TS:

When Voyager 1 reached the TS at the end of 2004, it was 94 AU far away. One AU is a Astronomical Unit and is the distance Earth-Sun.
So V1 was 94 times further away as the Earth from the Sun, when it measured this magnetic field:

501

You see a graph of the magnetic field measured in minutes/hours, while V1 was crossing the TS. The speed of V1 was 15.5 km/second.

In the first 40 minutes it measured only the solar wind, while it was approaching the TS.
Please notice that the magnetic field of the solar wind at 94 AU distance is only 0.05 nT (nano Tesla), which is just about 1% of the strength it has here at Earth at 1 AU distance.

Then for about 30 minutes it has the “foot”, which represents a kind of transition zone.

Then suddenly the magnetic field increases 50 times at the shock ramp. Voyager 1 crosses this ramp in only 90 seconds, which means the shock-ramp is less than 1500 km thick. That is extremely narrow in comparison to the vast emptiness of space.

We should not forget that V1 and V2 were crossing the TS at points with “no action”. There are not many particles in that area and only weak magnetic fields, which are not squeezing the Heliosphere.

For an area at the Nose with dense ribs, we might see density values 100-1000 times higher/stronger.

That means the magnetic field of the solar wind might encounter areas where the magnetic field of a local rib can be 5000-50000 times stronger. Inside the rib are dense clouds of highly energetic ions with speeds 500-1000 times faster than the solar wind. Not speeds of 150-400 km/second, but 10-90% of light-speed.
At the TS you will also find the ACR, which are Anomalous Cosmic Rays. These are rays far more energetic than the ions in the ribs. These ACRs are much more energetic than expected, with energies which can be created only in big particle-accelerators. The creation of these rays is still a mystery, because nobody has figured out up to now how these EXTREME energetic rays can gather these classes of energies.
All this means a whole new "ball-game".

What that means for the Sun/Earth complex? I don’t know and I think many at NASA also can only speculate.
But one thing is for sure: If this ribbon finds its way into our solar system, then it will DEFINITELY affect our live on Earth.

.

Swami

6th April 2010, 22:02

What about "counterwaves" coming from the black hole of our Galaxy, could they "neutralise" each other in some way...?

Thinking of Paul Laviolette here...

Swami

6th April 2010, 22:03

Double post...

bashi

6th April 2010, 22:25

The nature of Laviolette`s waves are most likely different. They are very fast moving waves relative to our solar system. He is not very specific about the true nature of these waves. Whatever they are, if they exist, they will not have a "counter"-effect.

.

samvado

12th April 2010, 12:18

But one thing is for sure: If this ribbon finds its way into our solar system, then it will DEFINITELY affect our live on Earth.

This tread turned really interesting in my absence.

What makes you think the ribbon could go thru the solar system in an angle that makes it hit the ecliptic? would it have to? how high & wide is it?
How strong is the earth magnetic field in respect to that thing? would the Van Allen radiation belt protect us somehow? as last resort, if its plasma how deep into the earth crust does it go?

Maybe we should start that "super CME tread" and add a few features to cover for extrasolar steel ribbons <just kinddin>

bashi

12th April 2010, 14:49

I think it would be better to just continue this thread. It is better to have all the info in one place than splitting it up now. For future reading it will be more easy.

sam,
why don’t you give me a hand on your first question? You are also a scientist, although not your field, but you can still do some internet-research, connect the dots and post the results with some nice pics. I am not such an expert and harmless in correcting things. It might give rise to some interesting discussions.
Van allen: might get answered with the first question
Plasma: Even in a worst case scenario the plasma would not reach Earth´s surface. Th atmosphere is a VERY strong protection against plasma. It would not reach!
This is not Mercury, where the nearly non existing atmosphere can not prevent plasma from hitting the surface. If it does, then a phenomena called “sputtering” is observed, the removal of surface atoms by the hard hitting plasma. The same process is used in the vacuum-technology to create very thin films.
Mirrors are made like this: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/glass-mirror-coating.html

But Earth is not Mercury. So the plasma will not reach ground. But radiation can; think of UV for example.

rosie

12th April 2010, 15:12

In the mainstream news, good to see! :thumb:
Could Nemesis be Nibiru?

Nasa scientists are searching for an invisible 'Death Star' that circles the Sun, which catapults potentially catastrophic comets at the Earth.

The star, also known as Nemesis, is five times the size of Jupiter and could be to blame for the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

The bombardment of icy missiles is being blamed by some scientists for mass extinctions of life that they say happen every 26 million years.

Nemesis is predicted to lie at a distance equal to 25,000 times that of the Earth from the Sun, or a third of a light-year.

Astronomers believe it is of a type called a red or brown dwarf – a "failed star" that has not managed to generate enough energy to burn like the Sun.

But it should be detectable by a heat-sensitive space telescope called WISE, the Wide-Field Infrared Survey Explorer.

Launched last year, WISE began surveying the skies in January. It is expected to discover a 1000 brown dwarfs within 25 light-years of the Sun – right on our cosmic doorstep – before its coolant runs out in October.

The nearest normal star to us is around 4.5 light-year away.

Our solar system is thought to be surrounded by a vast sphere of icy bodies, twice as far away as Nemesis, called the Oort Cloud.

Some get kicked in towards the planets as comets – giant snowballs of ice, dust and rock – and the suggestion is that the Death Star's gravitational influence is to blame.
link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7429335/Search-on-for-Death-Star-that-throws-out-deadly-comets.html

bashi

12th April 2010, 15:51

In the mainstream news, good to see! :thumb:

That already makes me think twice.

"A major clue to Nemesis's existence is a mysterious dwarf planet called Sedna that was spotted on an elongated 12,000-year-long orbit around the sun. "
link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...ly-comets.html

Somebody didnt do the homework, Sednas orbital period is ~19 years.
Its red and far out. But it does not have a 12000 years period.
No NASA link or quote in the article...
It smells a bit like disinfo.:nono:

.

Peace of Mind

12th April 2010, 16:18

There are many theories to this event.

I just hope this isn’t some clever plan to wipe out most of the population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa1jp4EiOcA

With all of the technology and supplies being flown off planet…I've come to think that the elites are packing their bags. I'm also hoping the elites don’t nuke us all from space and blame it on meteors.

Peace

samvado

12th April 2010, 16:37

I think it would be better to just continue this thread. It is better to have all the info in one place than splitting it up now. For future reading it will be more easy.

I was more thinking along the lines of what can we do (buy sleeping bags and water filters etc...)

sam,
why don’t you give me a hand on your first question? You are also a scientist, although not your field,

thats right, it is not my field - and you are so darn effective in it already, I would need 10 times the effort to find something. quite uneconomic if you ask me.

I also have the Ashayana Deane debunking in the pipe and a lot of other things not related to this forum.
I could probably but not in the near future.

bashi

12th April 2010, 18:58

ok, no problem

bashi

12th April 2010, 20:06

In general I think the DIRECT influence of only the ribs on Earth are not much to be feared.
We don`t know the density, volume, mag. field etc of the ribs. That would be too much of speculation.

The data from Voyager ½ were for the outside regions of the heliosphere. As much more you are getting inside, the stronger the suns mag. field and wind gets.
But during a CME also the suns mag. field increases, which is actually the mag. field associated with the CME. That – I assume – would hold the ribs at bay. But how far away? No idea.

In any case, what might be more dangerous are the effects of the ribs/ribbon on the sun itself.
Imagine you are lying next to a sleeping lion, without being able to move from the spot. Somebody comes along with a needle to attack you. You won’t worry much, unless the somebody pinches the lion.
That’s what the ribbon most likely will do with the sun.

IBEX measures only the energetic neutral atoms (ENAs), while the ribs are plasma, which is been kept together by its internal mag.field. How strong are these mag. flux tubes and their interaction with the sun? Who knows.
Worst case scenario is – i imagine - the passage of a flux tube near Earth while the sun is releasing a big CME. There is a (faint) possibility of a certain interaction of the tube with the CME or sun, which can result into a kind of flux tube connection between the sun and earth.
A kind of plasmatic shortcutting. :eek:
Conjecture?

This “flux-transfer-event” is also discussed by NASA:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes/

There might be no necessity for a structured rib near to Earth. Only the increased density of the “fluff”-cloud can feed the intensity of these already existing flux-transfer-events to increase by several orders into catastrophic proportions.

The effects? Watch “Knowing” with Nicolas Cage! :flame:
That’s so far for the fear mongering.

The ribbon can effect the sun in many ways. One effect can be that the heavier elements of ENAs or plasma within the ribbon will cause a kind of shielding effect. That shielding effect might be enough to block a significant amount of sunlight reaching the earth, causing a temporary cooling.

But the same effect might also cause the sun to overheat and react with CMEs or expansion.

Many people do not know what will happen, and the ones who know are getting off-world knowledge.

What is known is, that some CMEs with side effects had happened in the young past, and that EXTREMLY violent actions of the sun happened in the far older past and that Earth had been seriously effected.

The original poster on GLP mentioned EMP.

.

samvado

12th April 2010, 20:30

In any case, what might be more dangerous are the effects of the ribs/ribbon on the sun itself.

I agree - and small changes there can COOK us.

This “flux-transfer-event” is also discussed by NASA:

I always liked "thunderbolds of the gods" and have read all from harp et al.
Funny (or not) NASA again didnt even mention him.

Many people do not know what will happen, and the ones who know are getting off-world knowledge.

OK, if we can tget the latter it may still be fun to prepare for a slight catastophy, like a big CME, if it comes worse and we have an ELE, at least we did our best this time (and have to come back ...)

What is known is, that some CMEs with side effects had happened in the young past,

meaning we are not at risk per se

and that EXTREMLY violent actions of the sun happened in the far older past and that Earth had been seriously effected.

you mean the ELEs - right?

The original poster on GLP mentioned EMP.

wont harm us I guess, only technology

bashi

12th April 2010, 20:36

tomorrow more

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:27

I am not talking about an ELE, at least not jet.

The guy from the original post at GLP, the NASA contractor, mentions also „EMP“ caused by the sun.
EMP means Electro-Magnetic-Pulse. These pulses can occur during a geomagnetic storm, caused by a CME (Coronal Mass Ejection) of the sun.
These CMEs dent or open the magnetic field of the Earth, which is protecting us against cosmic radiation.
See here how a recent CME opens up the outer layers of Earths mag. field like a can:
The white arrow represents the direction of the sun-wind, the blue dot is the Earth: You can see how, within minutes, the outer layers facing the sun are pealed away like shells of an onion. The lightblue and red threads are the lines of the magnetic field. They are modeled based on satellite data and earth data.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5113/85733635.png (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/85733635.png/)

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7985/96258100.png (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/96258100.png/)

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6941/26306892.png (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/26306892.png/)

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/145/28557984.png (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/28557984.png/)

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:33

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7994/49062264.png (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/49062264.png/)

Now it is opened up:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4665/33426022.png (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/33426022.png/)

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7460/78126842.png (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/78126842.png/)

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7064/11496946.png (http://img512.imageshack.us/i/11496946.png/)

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:34

Now it starts closing again:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7533/83684319.png (http://img72.imageshack.us/i/83684319.png/)

Swami

13th April 2010, 17:38

Not scare anybody but has anyone read this thread over at GLP...? :rolleyes:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1036933/pg1

Cool B THX for the explanation...:wink:

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:40

So how does this effect us ?
First physics:
It is the effect of a changing magnetic field, which induces a voltage in a conductor. The general rules for this inductive voltage are:
- The stronger the mag field, the higher the voltage.
- The faster the change of the mag. Field during a specific time, called the magnetic variation, the higher the voltage. The mag. variation can be measured in nT/min (Nano-Tesla per minute).
- Finally, the longer the conductor, the higher the voltage.

So, a high voltage can be induced in even very short cables, if the mag.field is strong and very fast changing.
Also a high voltage can be induced in a cable by a weak mag. field which is only slowly changing, as long as the cable is very long.

How can an EMP occur? There are 3 different scenarios, which I will call E1,E2 and E3

 E1 Pulse – is a very fast component of a nuclear EMP. It is too fast for ordinary lightning protectors and destroys computers and communications equipment.

 E2 Pulse – has many similarities to pulses produced by lightning. It is least dangerous type of EMP because of the widespread use of lightning protection.

 E3 Pulse – is a much slower pulse caused by the Earth’s magnetic field being pushed out of the way by the nuclear explosion or solar storm followed by the field being restored to its natural place. This process can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors (like power lines) which can damage or destroy power line transformers.

.

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:46

E1
The EMP is caused by High altitude nuclear explosion. The release of gamma rays are creating the pulse (by Compton effect scattering of the gamma rays)

This picture shows the duration of an E1 and E2 pulse.
The E1 lasts only a “blink”, causing high induction voltages, because the mag. variation is so dammed fast. The red one is from a nuclear EMP, the green from lightening:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5237/empcharacteristics.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/empcharacteristics.jpg/)

Its characteristics are :

 Pulse travels at 90% of the speed of light

 Peaks after 5 - 10 nanoseconds, over in 1 microsecond

 Normal circuit breakers do not work this fast

 Induced Voltage Amplitude up to 50,000 volts/meter (!)

 Circuit boards are 1 million times more sensitive than vacuum tubes and are very likely to be effected

 Will cause integrated circuits connected to cables to overheat and give false readings, be damaged or destroyed

I will not discuss the devastating effects of this E1 scenario in detail, as this type of EMP is probably the “least of our worries”.
We are focusing here on the effects of the sun.

.

THE eXchanger

13th April 2010, 17:51

i know i was told back in 1984
- a year of an energetic 22
- that in my lifetime, old atlantis, and, old lemuria, would rise from the sea (ocean) ;)
and, that there would be very familiar faces, within the carvings of stones that would rise
(The Source ~ was The Source through Virgina Monte)
back when i was about 25 ~ i am just starting to go thru those old recorded tapes
perhaps, there might be some gems on them

samvado

13th April 2010, 17:55

I will not discuss the devastating effects of this E1 scenario in detail, as this type of EMP is probably the “least of our worries”.
We are focusing here on the effects of the sun.

That means secondary electrical appliances, if not electronically "enhanced" will still work, like older cars and simple generators.
Also lightbulbs and ignition for gas heating.

good news

I agree if we consider nuclear - we might as well give up and go home.

so which realistic scenarios are we talking? the ribbon, single CMEs, anything else?

bashi

13th April 2010, 17:56

Effects of E2 Pulses: I will skip the discussion.

Effects of E3 Pulses:

As you could see above, when a CME hits the earth, the mag field of Earth is been “dented”, weakened or sometime collapsed into areas more close to Earths surface. These effects are macroscopic and are relative slow processes which lasts from tens of seconds to several minutes.
You could see how the outer portion of Earths mag. field (EMF) are opened up on the left side like a can. The inner (stronger) layers of EMF are withholding this plasma onslaught.
In case of a stronger CME, these inner layers of the EMF can be also blown away.
That results in a greatly diminishing EMF on the ground, inducing DC voltage and DC currents, so called Geomagnetically Induced Currents (GIC) into the grid. The faster the diminishing, the higher the voltage and currents of the GICs.
When the EMF re-establishes itself, then again DC voltage and currents are again induced, but flowing into the opposite direction than before.
These induced electric fields of the GICs are in the range of 5-10 V / km

As the grid is AC, it throws the transformers “off balance” (The transformers are actually getting magnetically “over-saturated”). As hundreds to thousands of amperes DC are flowing into these transformers they cause overheating and fires.

If safety measures are taken in time, it will only lead to trip-outs of individual lines and/or to the collapse of the entire system. But these measures can only be activated, if a proper preparation has been implemented before. That includes transformer redundancy and emergency training of the personal.
But it looks like as if these measures are too often simply no-existent.
And as it is government policy to avoid power outages at all costs, it is very likely that the power-companies will NOT switch “OFF”, even if technical reasons dictate it. A burnt transformer is a much better alibi for a power-outage pandemonium in a mega-city, than a disputable decision in favor of hardware safety.
So we are bound to see burnt transformers in future, as we have seen in the past:

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1348/transformerdamageduring.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/i/transformerdamageduring.jpg/)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3563/transformersx.gif (http://img99.imageshack.us/i/transformersx.gif/)

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5805/trnaformerwindingfailur.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/trnaformerwindingfailur.jpg/)

.

bashi

13th April 2010, 18:02

What are the magnetic characteristics of Geomagnetic Storms in terms of numbers?

In March 1989 there was a geomag. storm, which resulted in a grid-failure of the 21GW Hydro Quebec power system.
This storms max magnetic variation was 480 nT/min. After hitting Earths mag. field, it knocked out power to 6 million people within 92 seconds. The outage lasted for 9 hours.

In May 1921 was another storm with a mag. variation up to 4,800 nT/min. The induced ground currents are estimated to have been 10 times stronger than during the 1989 storm.

The Sept. 1859 CME (Carrington event) had a mag. variation of likely more than 5,000 nT/min.

These were some storms of the younger past.

So what is government doing to address the problem?
They contracted some studies on GICs, that’s all I know.

To understand the flow of GICs in power grids and to be able to decide on GIC risk analysis and advice, an analysis of the quasi-DC properties of the grid had been necessary.
That analysis had been coupled with a geophysical model of the Earth that provides the driving surface electric field, determined by combining time-varying ionospheric source fields and a conductivity model of the Earth.
This kind of analysis had been performed for North America, the UK and in Northern Europe. The complexity of power grids, the source of ionospheric current systems and the 3D ground conductivity made an accurate analysis difficult, but not impossible.

.

samvado

13th April 2010, 18:03

- Finally, the longer the conductor, the higher the voltage.

is a coil a long cable in that sense or does it have to be elongated? I would think coil will work too, then what formula dictates the current? I want to find out if I should buy a diesel or if ignition coils will survive ... :-)

But wait, we are talking magnetic flux here, will a faraday cage ( a good one like an old SAFE) not shield anything then?

bashi

13th April 2010, 18:16

The results were and still are shocking:

First the calculated probabilities of transformer failure:

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3023/collapseushvacgridtrans.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/collapseushvacgridtrans.jpg/)

Notice:" Regions with high percentages of at-risk capacity could experience long-duration outages that could extend multiple years."

Here the probable areas affected (US):

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/711/collapse.jpg (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/collapse.jpg/)

These are the areas of prolonged TOTAL collapse incase of a 1921 storm. 130 million people would be affected!

AGAIN: A report from Metatech Corp. estimated that a storm similar to the May 1921 event would today permanently damage over 350 transformers and would leave more than 130 million people in the US without power for a prolonged period (several years)!

What does it mean:
Here an excerpt from the 2008 EMP Commission Report. (The commission had been dissolved after publishing their report):

 “Should the electrical power system be lost for any substantial period of time … the consequences are likely to be catastrophic … machines will stop; transportation and communication will be severely restricted; heating, cooling and lighting will cease; food and water supplies will be interrupted; and many people may die”

.

bashi

13th April 2010, 18:23

So what means encountering an E3 EMP for you?
Remember: These induced electric fields of the GICs are in the range of 5-10 V/km only.
They would not hurt you. Also computers or any stand-alone electronic equipment is unlikely to get affected, as long as not connected to long exterior cables (power-grid, telephone line).
For example: If you attach an antenna of 1 meter length to the power-supply of your PC, it will add only 0.005-0.010 Volts; compared to 110 Volts its nothing. Therefore all the prep with faraday-cages are useless.
It would not help, because there is no need for it, in case of an E3 pulse.

So, if you want to prepare for that, then what should you do?

You will need to prepare for a life without electricity, far away from cities and towns. Learn how to live without all these extras, acquire basic knowledge of essential processes.
Basically become a prepper and
For a worst case scenario: Learn how to live without food.
Oh yes, i am serious!

(See this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?905-You-don%E2%80%99t-need-food-to-live!

.

bashi

13th April 2010, 18:30

is a coil a long cable in that sense or does it have to be elongated? I would think coil will work too, then what formula dictates the current? I want to find out if I should buy a diesel or if ignition coils will survive ... :-)

But wait, we are talking magnetic flux here, will a faraday cage ( a good one like an old SAFE) not shield anything then?

a coil is a long cable.
go for old diesel without motor-management electronics.

As you can see, todays sun scares the heck out of me

samvado

13th April 2010, 18:33

So, if you want to prepare for that, then what should you do?

You will need to prepare for a life without electricity, far away from cities and towns. Learn how to live without all these extras, acquire basic knowledge of essential processes.
Basically become a prepper and
For a worst case scenario: Learn how to live without food.
Oh yes, i am serious!

yeah, my favorite thread :-)

But seriously, there are a few more details to look at.

Firstly I would like to look at a worst case scenario that is survivable. Not an ELE. According to you cars would still run and gas-pumps still work. Water supply may or may not be working.
so getting away from the cities is not as hard if one reacts swiftly.
however, I would like to discuss this in detail in another thread, maybe in the off-the-grid subforum?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

a coil is a long cable.
go for old diesel without motor-management electronics.

As you can see, todays sun scare the heck out of me

I am looking at diesel motorcycles (enfield taurus, 1.5 l/100km) because with a car, if everybody else panics, you are bound to run into a jam soon. with a bike you just hopp thru it or over thru the fields.
but of course you cant take much, so prep is important.

rosie

13th April 2010, 18:43

Swami, looks like the prophets may be right on about Atlantis rising again. Seems like earth is going through her changes right on schedule.

I have noticed more underwater volcanoes in the news now, then I ever have in the past.
Example: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/photogalleries/100210-undersea-volcano-island-japan-pictures/#underwater-volcano-***utoku-okanaba-eruption_12735_600x450.jpg & http://www.physorg.com/news189083558.html

the list goes on.

I have detached myself from any kind of fear over these changes, but I am filled with awe and wonder at it all!

Now, if I lived anywhere near an earthquake zone or volcano, I would now be in the process of moving away to a safer area, now is not the time to procrastinate if one is thinking of moving.
love & light

lightblue

13th April 2010, 18:47

wonder how many people here have a pad in the countryside..with a chimney etc?
but that's also something for another thread...maybe the sun is just having a bad hair day..or else, we might as well say our good byes.. :hug:

samvado

13th April 2010, 18:54

For the Europeans: look here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1089-How-to-prepare-for-a-CME-in-the-European-theatre&p=9469#post9469)

The best way to go will be different depending on where you are located when "it" happens. I am also curious how many EU we have here!

Swami

13th April 2010, 18:54

Now we all (maybe..) know what all those Fema-coffins are about......

bashi

13th April 2010, 19:07

lightblue

13th April 2010, 19:17

seen it....don't find it beautiful..the sun is having a VERY bad hair day...if you want to put it mildly.. :scared:

samvado

15th April 2010, 08:13

As a shootoff of this thread a few of us currently discuss what a good insurance would be in the face of even a small liklyhood of an all-out CME or other scenarios.

How to prepare for a CME in the European theatre (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1089-How-to-prepare-for-a-CME-in-the-European-theatre)

bashi

15th April 2010, 16:09

Here something recent:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1849556/space_storms_could_threaten_uk_power_grid/

http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1004/14sun/

lightblue

15th April 2010, 16:33

great.............won't a cave man marry me?
:girl_wink:

Swami

15th April 2010, 16:41

great.............won't a cave man marry me?
:girl_wink:

Meet my brother..........:biggrin1:

http://www.crossfiteastbay.com/2009/07/06/captain-caveman1.jpg

bashi

15th April 2010, 16:45

Good luck:

fkz83VFEk1A

:biggrin1:

.

lightblue

15th April 2010, 18:59

http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1849556/space_storms_could_threaten_uk_power_grid/

so what happens with the air traffic control towers in the event? no air traffic i suppose...

swami, thanks for the thought, but i'll decline your kind offer...you brother seems to have outlived quite a few of his wives..i am suspicious.. any trace of freshly dug soil in his backyard? :suspicious:

besides, my mail box by now is packed full and i can afford to up my specification to: self contained two storey one with access to fire wood and clean water.. please do not write unless you can match my new criteria.... :bump2:

bashi, good luck to you too !

bashi

15th April 2010, 19:57

samvado

15th April 2010, 20:25

yeah, the timeline of events...
i will try to write something up

and please copy it over to the HTS group thread (how to survive)

MorningSong

17th April 2010, 07:35

bashi

17th April 2010, 07:43

I want to bring to everyone's attention the recent post by Sickscent, the OP and whistleblower contactee at GLP, on this thread:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?286-Something-Really-BIG-is-Going-on-With-The-Sun

Thanks, morning. Networking is good.
Its a good idea to drag him to have also a look at this thread. Maybe he can add something through his sources.

bashi

17th April 2010, 12:46

How can you know that a CME is coming and how much time do you have to react/prepare? For a lay-person this is quite difficult, but even for scientists it is not easy.

To answer that we have to look at the typical characeristics of a CME and how a CME is detected.

A CME is basically caused by an explosion on the surface of the sun, which releases plasma and radiation into space.
Depending on the initial conditions on the surface, the shape, density, speed, focus etc of the CME can vary.
There are two main interesting CMEs in this discussion:

1. CME without a strong X-ray burst (flare) and (here called type A)
2. CME with a strong X-ray burst (flare) (here called type B)

A Type:
These CME are very difficult to predict and detect. But luckily most of these CMEs do not have enough energy to cause a grid failure.
The CME on the 3rd April was such a type. It was accompanied only by a very moderate B-Class flare and didn’t catch the scientist’s attention until it hit the ACE satellite. The ACE is parked at the Lagrange point L1, a point in the direction of the sun, about 1.5 million km away from earth. 29 minutes after hitting ACE, the CME hit the Earth and caused a mag. variation of 38 nT/min at Boulder, Colorado. That storm had about 20 % of the strength of the geo-mag. storm of 1989 which caused the Quebec grid failure.
The disturbing fact is, that these CMEs are difficult to forecast.
To demonstrate this, here the except from the space weather report, specially the timeline of the warning protocol:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9014/weatherreport1.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/weatherreport1.jpg/)

You can see that there had been a warning of a sudden geo-mag. pulse about 2 hours ahead. No mentioning of the expected strength. Power-companies will likely not shut down their grid because of this unspecific warning.
You can also see that all subsequent warnings were issued AFTER the CME hit the ACE satellite, leaving just a gap of about 20 minutes for power-companies to implement emergency measures.
The minimum time required by power companies to implement emergency measures is about 15 minutes, whatever measures they have.

The max. wind speed behind this shock was about 800 km/second, which is a moderate speed.

That means: In case of a very high energetic CME of type A, travelling at a speed of 2000 km/sec, there will be not enough time - only 5-10 minutes - for the power-companies to react and they will silently go into the night.

That’s why articles like this are appearing:

http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1004/14sun/

There is always a story behind the story.

bashi

17th April 2010, 13:02

Type B:
Most very high energetic CMEs are accompanied by a X-ray flare.
These CME are more easily to detect in time. The X-rays of the flare are travelling much faster than the bulky plasma. Their speed is 10000 to 60000 km/second and are producing a nice announcement for the CME.
They reach only several hours after the explosion on the sun the satellite. There they create a kind of “snowy” pattern in the pictures:

The ACE is continuously sending the measured X-ray levels to Earth, so that a timely warning can be issued. Very high energetic CMEs are having a flare of high M-class, X-class or maybe above.
Any X-Class event is VERY energetic.
To prevent misunderstandings: There is a difference between X-ray and X-class: The first describes only the nature of the radiation, while the later describes the intensity of the flare.

These X-rays are likely to cause malfunctioning in the satellites around Earth.

Very high energetic CMEs are travelling at speeds of about 2000 km/sec, leaving a time window of about 12-20 hours between flare-detection and CME arrival on Earth.

How can you spot a high energetic CME heading to Earth?
The sun very often emits CMEs into all directions. The ones heading to Earth have a specific optical phenomena attached to them, called HALO.
It’s a (semi-)circular appearance of the CME on the pictures. This is caused because the CME heads straight at Earth.
You can compare it with a headlight of a car: If it blinds you, then you know its moving directly towards you.

Here an example for a semi-circular CME, actually the one causing the geo-mag. Storm discussed above:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9071/201004031033c2512mod.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/201004031033c2512mod.jpg/)

You can see a faint circular shape at the lower part of the pic.

.

bashi

17th April 2010, 13:36

How can you inform yourself?

Apart from the SOHO links, look at these:

A) Here a site which measures all CMEs and also Halos:

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/latestCMEs.html

A Halo-CME will show up there like this:

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1793/cactushalocme.png (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/cactushalocme.png/)

See the small asterisk? That is a marked Halo-CME, heading to Earth.
You can click on the highlighted blue number of the CME to see a movie, angle, speed ect.

B) You can also follow the X-ray output of the sun measured by ACE here:

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/today.html

And an update every 1 minute here:

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/Xray_1m.gif

Any high M-class or X-class is interesting.
If you see an X-class spike and afterwards the satellite goes down, then that is a very clear indication.

C) You can watch out for the “snowy” patterns caused by the flare of the CME on the satellite here:

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime-images.html

A sample of how the "snowy" pattern looks like is this:

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6836/200007141236eit195512sn.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/200007141236eit195512sn.jpg/)

Typical samples of “snowy” patterns of former CMEs can be seen here:

http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/coolpics/halo2000Jul14.html

And here:

http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/coolpics/

NOW, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:

If you see the Halo, the highly energetic flare and the “snowy” pattern, then you know that a big CME is on its way.
If you notice that satellite-communication is interrupted, then you can be sure that something very BIG is on its way: The mobile-phone will not work; so the ATM machines; so credit-cards; so GPS.
It means the flare has either temporarily disabled the satellite or fried its circuits permanently.

There will be still 12-20 hours left after onset of these symptoms.

The electric power will still be ON; the Internet also; cash based purchases will still be possible; the traffic lights are still working…
That’s the last time-frame you have to get last things done.
And then everything will come to a stand-still.

After that … Who knows?

.

Sickscent

17th April 2010, 16:14

Hello all! This is SickScent, from the GLP thread. There is a thread I started here on Avalon about this topic, with a link to the pdf I put out. I am so glad this information is making its rounds on the net. In my opinion, and what I have discovered about this Boeing guy, it is not a hoax, and I have validated who he is.

Again, thanks for those investigating this topic!

SickScent

bashi

17th April 2010, 20:28

Here Obamas NASA speech:

oqk_BBq9rT4

Notice at 10:10 "...including a probe of the sun's atmosphere."
There are many small robotic projects in the pipeline, but
this project has been specifically mentioned.

Also at 12:30 "...if it becomes necessary to quickly bring our people home from the International Space Station" ,
obviously refering to irradiation problems, which are occurring during a CME or if a rib interacts somehow with Earth.

.

samvado

20th April 2010, 15:12

Swami

20th April 2010, 15:20

This one has the asterisk behind it..........:shocked:

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/diffmovie/cme0012.html

bashi

20th April 2010, 16:13

This one has the asterisk behind it..........:shocked:

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/diffmovie/cme0012.html

Yes. But it is low speed and OFF centre. So it will be most likely a warm spring breeze.

Swami

20th April 2010, 16:24

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=733

What is the meaning of the abbreviations in the upper line...?

bashi

20th April 2010, 16:38

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=733

What is the meaning of the abbreviations in the upper line...?

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/scan/index.html

samvado

20th April 2010, 16:40

Yes. But it is low speed and OFF centre. So it will be most likely a warm spring breeze.

bashi, have you listened to the Deagle stuff? I would love to know your take on it.
I have listed a few things that sounded funny to me - up to minute 25. I'd love you to look at them and tell me if I got anything wrong there.
its over at Bill Ryans threads.

bashi

20th April 2010, 16:44

bashi, have you listened to the Deagle stuff? I would love to know your take on it.
I have listed a few things that sounded funny to me - up to minute 25. I'd love you to look at them and tell me if I got anything wrong there.
its over at Bill Ryans threads.

Well, i think its worth listening to the end. I dont buy all, but much.
I will post something relating to it shortly here.

Swami

20th April 2010, 16:47

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=733

What is the meaning of the abbreviations in the upper line...?

Am I blind or what. Been to that page ten times..........:sleep:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=734

bashi

20th April 2010, 16:50

Am I blind or what. Been to that page ten times..........:sleep:

happens to me all the time.
its good that you posted the snip for others.

lightblue

20th April 2010, 17:32

If you see the Halo, the highly energetic flare and the “snowy” pattern, then you know that a big CME is on its way.
If you notice that satellite-communication is interrupted, then you can be sure that something very BIG is on its way: The mobile-phone will not work; so the ATM machines; so credit-cards; so GPS.
It means the flare has either temporarily disabled the satellite or fried its circuits permanently.

There will be still 12-20 hours left after onset of these symptoms.

The electric power will still be ON; the Internet also; cash based purchases will still be possible; the traffic lights are still working…
That’s the last time-frame you have to get last things done.
And then everything will come to a stand-still.

After that … Who knows?

would credit card debts be wiped out for ever? :unsure:

bashi

20th April 2010, 17:44

would credit card debts be wiped out for ever? :unsure:

It looks like as if you find the lighter side to it. :dance:

bashi

20th April 2010, 17:47

Earth struck by most powerful space storm in three years

look here (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18735-earth-struck-by-most-powerful-space-storm-in-three-years.html)

I dont know if thats old stuff -

If you had read the info of this thread more diligently, then you would know the answer

.

lightblue

20th April 2010, 17:48

It looks like as if you find the lighter side to it. :dance:

twas a serious question..

would it be advisable to pull as much cash out prior to CME - for evacuation purposes...and not worry about that debt..? :blink:

samvado

20th April 2010, 17:55

If you had read the info of this thread more diligently, then you would know the answer

.

I have, but i also have bad memory ...

bashi

20th April 2010, 19:04

twas a serious question..

would it be advisable to pull as much cash out prior to CME - for evacuation purposes...and not worry about that debt..? :blink:

Please do not ask these kind of questions. Its all up to you: The interest rates charged may already answer that for you.

Lyricus

20th April 2010, 19:07

bashi, have you listened to the Deagle stuff? I would love to know your take on it.
I have listed a few things that sounded funny to me - up to minute 25. I'd love you to look at them and tell me if I got anything wrong there.
its over at Bill Ryans threads.
I have also just listened to the entire interview! And what I want to know is...should I be packing my bags and family up moving to a remote woodland patch with tins of bean, a survival manual, swiss army knife and some water purifying tablets? It scared the living crap right out of me.
If this true [even in part] we're about see some serious **** happening here on Planet Earth...it doesn't feel right to me but no matter as there is something sincere about Dr Bill's delivery of the information [apart from the bit where he claims to have been placed in front of some ET type spectacular council]

lightblue

20th April 2010, 20:24

Please do not ask these kind of questions. Its all up to you: The interest rates charged may already answer that for

i take it the interest charges would just pile on for when everything is over..

i don't accept your patronising tone:stop: but i've no intention to argue over it - there's moderators here who do the warnings..

regards l

bashi

20th April 2010, 20:29

I have also just listened to the entire interview! And what I want to know is...should I be packing my bags and family up moving to a remote woodland patch with tins of bean, a survival manual, swiss army knife and some water purifying tablets? It scared the living crap right out of me.
If this true [even in part] we're about see some serious **** happening here on Planet Earth...it doesn't feel right to me but no matter as there is something sincere about Dr Bill's delivery of the information [apart from the bit where he claims to have been placed in front of some ET type spectacular council]

This is only a thread about pseudo-scientific fear-mongering, and it seems to work out. LOL. :lol::lol:

Seriously, it is here about exploring some possibilities within a somehow reasonable context.
Did you see my question marks: WHO KNOWS?

So here it is about trying to discuss with little scientific background what MIGHT or CAN happen. It is not a thread about bunker digging or survival groups etc.
There are other threads: "How to survive ..." in the solar group.

So please let it be a technical discussion here.

.

bashi

20th April 2010, 20:32

There is some speculation that one of the major effects of the ribbon with our solar system would be the creation of highly energetic gamma rays, which would effect life here on Earth. As an example the cosmic GRBs (Gamma-Ray –Bursts) were mentioned.
Some people start asking about how many meters of concrete they have to have between them and the rays in order to be somehow safe.

In my opinion the gamma ray issue is not going to play any mayor role in the scenario.
My arguments are as follows:

Cosmic GRBs are by far too energetic, too short and far too rare to have any relation with the ribbon-issue.

So what about “lower” (still very high) energy rays?
We know that highly energetic gamma rays are created by unknown processes at the boundary between heliopause and ribbon. Now imagine a worst case scenario where this would happen just at the boundary to our atmosphere. Something like a continuous nuclear explosion happening above us, creating high density gamma-rays.

What will happen? Will life get affected by these rays?

Lets have a look at a nuclear created EMP in order to somehow answer the question:

A nuclear EMP is caused by high altitude nuclear explosions (HANE). It falls into the category of man made space weather.
An atomic bomb is exploded at the outskirts of our atmosphere in order to create an EMP.
The first kind of energy to hit the atmosphere from the blast is a highly intensive flow of gamma rays. These rays are “absorbed” by the atmosphere and this process creates a flood of free electrons. It is the effect of these electrons which is creating the EMP. The gamma-rays are not reaching the earths-surface, because they get absorbed, but the EMP does reach.
This type of EMP is so disastrous because it lasts only some millionth part of a second, and thus creating an extremely high mag. variation. This results into very high voltages induced into conductors. This process had been discussed before.

.

Lyricus

20th April 2010, 20:42

This is only a thread about pseudo-scientific fear-mongering, and it seems to work out. LOL. :lol::lol:

Seriously, it is here about exploring some possibilities within a somehow reasonable context.
Did you see my question marks: WHO KNOWS?

So here it is about trying to discuss with little scientific background what MIGHT or CAN happen. It is not a thread about bunker digging or survival groups etc.
There are other threads: "How to survive ..." in the solar group.

So please let it be a technical discussion here.

.

I shall take my leave.

bashi

20th April 2010, 21:10

What is the military saying about manmade and natural spaceweather?
There had been a briefing from mil to mil about Space Weather:
Here some titbits:

"The ********* has completed a 16 month project of designing a multi-service, multi-agency space weather (SWx) architecture.

The study addressed space weather effects on all anticipated elements in the 2010 to 2025 timeframe that would be need to support the DoD and other US assets used for operations, navigation communications and associated ground elements.

The Chief Scientist of the Air Force requested that the SWx architecture study include potential impacts on space weather due to manmade influences on the near-Earth space environment. These impacts could be significant drivers within the architecture alternatives.

The natural SWx phenomena discussed are solar flares; magnetic storms and the Appleton equatorial anomaly.

The man-made phenomena discussed are high altitude nuclear explosions (HANE); ionospheric heaters; chemical releases in space and space-based particle beams.

The electromagnetic radiation released from the hot fireball of High Altitude Nuclear Explosions (HANEs) includes x-rays and gamma rays whose duration are on the order of nanoseconds.

In addition, heating of the atmosphere creates infrared radiation that can persist for minutes and EMP.

The most important particles from the bomb include: macroscopic radioactive debris fragments from the nuclear device, beta electrons created as a result of radioactive decay, and neutrons.

The environment produced by a HANE and the regions of space effected depends strongly on the location of the burst and the fission and fusion yields of the device.

Both the US and Russia are conducting experimental research on modifying or controlling regions of the ionosphere.

A number of ionosphere modification techniques have been successfully demonstrated by Russia.

Military application of the above techniques includes production of virtual antenna for LF communications; and creating an artificial ionosphere for HF ducted communications.
One of the high-payoff capabilities of creating RF reflecting layers (mirrors) for OTH communications in the ELF to 2 GHz frequency range."

The expected comm outages:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1702/communicationmod.png (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/communicationmod.png/)

"The HAARP site uses a large phased array antenna field to concentrate and focus up to 3.6 MWatts in 2.8 - 10 MHz radiation on a small volume in the ionosphere.

However, ionospheric heaters are not practical for man-made effects because the technology concentrates only 10 –6 Watts per cc into the ionosphere

Chemical releases in space can produce aurora and other SWx associated phenomena observable from Earth, but it’s only temporary and localized.

Experiments conducted on the space shuttle have shown that particle beams are not an effective method of altering the space environment except that in the immediate vicinity of the beam platform.

The EM radiation associated with manmade and SWx phenomena differ in three very important ways:

1.The x-ray and gamma-ray signature of SWx phenomena persist for seconds to minutes compared to nanoseconds for HANEs.
2. Radiation from HANEs decreases as the square of the distance from the burst point, while radiation from flares is essentially constant throughout the sunlit hemisphere of Geospace.
3. Radiation from flares effects the entire sunlit hemisphere while the radiation from HANEs and chemical releases is limited to the line-of-site or magnetic field contained footprint, and is much smaller."

Ray signatures:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8632/radiationmod.png (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/radiationmod.png/)

"The major differences between manmade & natural phenomena are:

– HANEs do not produce energetic ions except for alpha particles while flares and magnetic storms produce a multitude of ion types to include energetic H, He, C, N, O and Fe ions; and

– HANEs produce antimatter while natural SWx events do not.

– HANES produce a much higher number of highly energetic electrons than do natural phenomena."

Particle radiation:

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3769/particleradiationmod2.png (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/particleradiationmod2.png/)

"In this area, man-made and natural SWx phenomena are similar but have two important differences.
– First, HANE produces effects that interfere with higher frequencies than solar flares and magnetic storms.
– Second, man-made effects are localized while flare effects are primarily hemispheric and magnetic storm effects are global.

While the electromagnetic and corpuscular environments produced by manmade and natural disturbances are similar, in almost every environmental domain, the spatial and temporal spheres of manmade influences are orders of magnitude smaller than that of naturally occurring phenomena

Ionospheric Heating and Chemical Release are not significant threats with present or projected technology

Expand the NPOESS constellation to 3 hardened satellites with 120 degrees of separation in longitude.

The additions of these hardened satellites will provide a reliable method of monitoring the evolution of radiation belts following HANE or extremely severe magnetic storms."

So, thats the military. You can make up you own mind.

.

Swami

20th April 2010, 21:16

Damn Bashi, I wish I had that talent.....
Great stuff.....:thumb:

bashi

20th April 2010, 21:18

Now back to gamma rays and the ribbon:

Here a graph which shows how much energy a gamma ray is loosing during its path through 1 cm of atmosphere:

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9113/specificenergyloss.jpg (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/specificenergyloss.jpg/)

As you can see, it varies with the energy it has. The minimum loss is 2KeV/cm at an energy of 1MeV, which is 1,000,000 eV.
The maximum is 260 KeV/cm with an energy of a 100 eV.
It shows you that a ray with 1MeV will travel approx. 300-400 meters before having lost its energy.
A ray of 1000 eV will not make it a millimetre.

You can see that even in a worst case scenario, in which the ribbon tempers directly with Earths atmosphere, the gamma ray issue is not to be worried about. Even if that happens, any gamma rays created in this process will not reach the surface. Any EMP created in this process will NOT have the characteristics of a nuclear EMP because its origin is cosmic and that means a “slow” process.
That ribbon- EMP, if any, will have very moderate mag. variation, similar to the Type 3 EMP.

But the ribbon might have indirect effects, like

- enticing the sun
- creating magnetic flux tubes with unprecedented effects
- creating a draft like disturbance within the Oort- Cloud and Kuiper-Belt, which will influence cosmic bodies and eventually “throw” comets out of orbit by slightly changing it
- squeezing the heliosphere so much that rays from out of space will be able to hit the Earth
- effecting the outer earth atmosphere, especially its ability to absorb UV.

I mentioned UV before. That might become a very big issue.

You can see that even in a worst case scenario, in which the ribbon tempers directly with Earths atmosphere, the gamma ray issue is not to be worried about. Even if that happens, any gamma rays created in this process will not reach the surface. Any EMP created in this process will NOT have the characteristics of a nuclear EMP because its origin is cosmic and that means a “slow” process.
That ribbon- EMP, if any, will have very moderate mag. variation, similar to the Type 3 EMP.

.

bashi

20th April 2010, 21:25

Are gamma rays reaching the atmosphere? Yes, many, but you would not see or feel them because the atmosphere protects us, as explained above.

BTW Earths outer atmosphere creates even its own terrestrial gamma ray flashes, the TGFs caused by electrical discharge within the atmosphere, which are not effecting humans.

Here a picture of measured TGF, which are slightly changing during the seasons:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1687/mapoftgfs.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/mapoftgfs.jpg/)

and

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/143/mapoftgfs2.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/mapoftgfs2.jpg/)

But thats just by the way

.

bashi

20th April 2010, 21:30

So how does the cosmic radiation outside the heliopause looks like? Here is what Voyager 1 measured when it flew through the termination shock (TS) in beginning of 2005:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8868/voyager1crossingend2004.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/voyager1crossingend2004.jpg/)

There are time-fragments marked as A,B,C and D.
The time before A you can see that there was virtually nothing happening. That’s a clear area within the heliopause. Also the B zone.
There are 2 transition-zones, A and C, in which there were energetic events.
The TS is at the beginning of zone D, and you can see clearly a continuous increase of cosmic rays as V1 is leaving the heliopause behind.
What it means, IF Earth will ever enter unprotected into this area?

Who knows?

But I think the effects of the enticed Sun on Earth will by far outpace this effect.

.

Swami

20th April 2010, 21:35

Wooow, in addition (http://www.slideshare.net/guest02f352/04-mmitt-040599-brief).......:tape:

bashi

20th April 2010, 21:39

Wooow, in addition (http://www.slideshare.net/guest02f352/04-mmitt-040599-brief).......:tape:

Bad Boy, you are spoiling the impression! :laser:

:laugh:

.

Swami

20th April 2010, 21:54

The Electromagnetic Spectrum

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/images/content/114284main_EM_Spectrum500.jpg

You make feel shy Bashi...........:rolleyes:
(EDIT: :laser:)

bashi

20th April 2010, 22:29

The Electromagnetic Spectrum

You make feel shy Bashi...........:rolleyes:
(EDIT: :laser:)

Yes its my Cosmic Gamma Ray Sword:

gDg1gRuAcJE

Emmanuel

21st April 2010, 02:39

bashi, many thanks for your great in deep info.
I just wonder for the people who lacks the knowledge to read the "charts" or every day errands keep them out of the loop will be possible to set up an "aware system" via text messages or tweeter by request only? It seen to me that this could be one of the practicalities of this thread.
We all are one
Emmanuel

bashi

21st April 2010, 09:11

bashi

21st April 2010, 09:22

This one has the asterisk behind it..........:shocked:

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/diffmovie/cme0012.html

Knock , Knock in the night...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7786/halocme.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/halocme.jpg/)

morguana

21st April 2010, 10:00

just been reading this thread.....and its awsome, thanks folks for the information presented here

Swami

21st April 2010, 10:54

Knock , Knock in the night...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7786/halocme.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/halocme.jpg/)

Could you post the link where you get these....?
I suppose you "Imageshack" them yourself....?
What CME was this, the "Asterisk"-one..?

bashi

21st April 2010, 17:11

Could you post the link where you get these....?
I suppose you "Imageshack" them yourself....?
What CME was this, the "Asterisk"-one..?

http://www2.nict.go.jp/y/y223/simulation/realtime/index.html

copy and upload; site reloads after ~2 minutes with new data at different times.

I doubt it is the one with the asterisk. too early for that. barely 30 hours after the CME. i guess it will take 100-120 hours to get here.
Actually this blast is very strange. maybe a sun-blast? or something completly different.
but it is VERY strange.

.

Swami

21st April 2010, 17:22

THX again...... :thumb:
Seen this one.........

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=715

bashi

21st April 2010, 17:43

Yeah, i saw it. Just a bit off centre, i think nothing special.

But here:

http://www.youtube.com//SDOmission2009#p/u/0/-a1qjxYN2v0

SDO coming up today!

bashi

21st April 2010, 17:47

Swami

21st April 2010, 18:58

They are announcing SDO here: http://www.spaceweather.com/

Look at the "related links". NASA posts this article again:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/05feb_sdo/

I somehow recognize the picture.....

.

This one perhaps.......?

http://i36.tinypic.com/ixguq1.gif

MorningSong opened a thread on SDO, I cant wait...... IMAX, 3D... 's gonna blow some minds apart.....
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1360-Solar-Dynamic-Observatory-Debutes-Today&highlight=MorningSong

The movie is just amazing. Did you see how the flare gets sucked back into the sun again.....?

bashi

21st April 2010, 19:24

First light for the SDO:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/21apr_firstlight/

Muticolor sun:

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2010/04/21/fulldiskmulticolor.jpg

Swami

21st April 2010, 19:35

Holy cow, my jaw fell on the floor.............:faint2:

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2010/04/21/fulldiskmulticolor_pixels764.jpg/image_756

Damn thats amazingly beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwP9kTMRM88)......

bashi

21st April 2010, 20:50

This one perhaps.......?

No this one:

http://img535.imageshack.us/i/collapse.jpg/

.

Emmanuel

22nd April 2010, 04:22

Bashi, Getting back to the "aware system" I mentioned yesterday I am checking out three different ways to accomplished but I get back to it on the next two days o so. What I really want to share is what took place in a meeting yesterday in remote country side shield off any ear-drops. The meeting assistant claim to be part of the elite who control most country's government.
Remarks:
1) Whatever "is going to happen" we can't wait to happen because whatever is left we will rebuild and take over all infrastructure globally. (Means they know something?????)
2) We need to push the change the "actual monetary trade currency" to take control of the new currency trade.
There are a lot more but my point is without compromise myself that for me this conversation validated all what has been post here.
By the way no reference to any particular time lime.
We are all One
Emmanuel

Swami

22nd April 2010, 10:42

ashi, Getting back to the "aware system" I mentioned yesterday I am checking out three different ways to accomplished but I get back to it on the next two days o so.

Thats been bugging my mind since you mentioned it Emmanuel. Is it wise to post it in a thread "out-of-sight" for guests visiting the forum....?

What I really want to share is what took place in a meeting yesterday in remote country side shield off any ear-drops. The meeting assistant claim to be part of the elite who control most country's government.
Remarks:
1) Whatever "is going to happen" we can't wait to happen because whatever is left we will rebuild and take over all infrastructure globally. (Means they know something?????)
2) We need to push the change the "actual monetary trade currency" to take control of the new currency trade.
There are a lot more but my point is without compromise myself that for me this conversation validated all what has been post here.

Do you have perhaps a link to this material...?

K626

22nd April 2010, 10:51

Wonder if the new currency will be gold backed?..We could all die laughing. NO I'M SERIOUS!! :p

Klabs

bashi

22nd April 2010, 22:20

Remarks:
1) Whatever "is going to happen" we can't wait to happen because whatever is left we will rebuild and take over all infrastructure globally. (Means they know something?????)
l

Can you say whether it was clear that is will be a
manmade event or that it will occur naturally ?

If so, was it mentioned or did you deduct it from the context?

bashi

22nd April 2010, 22:31

I want to have a closer look at the anomalous behaviour of the Suns relation to Earth`s mag. field on the 20th of this month:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3835/cmepeak.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/cmepeak.jpg/)

Clearly visible is the sudden peak at around 22:30. This is not a normal behaviour. The question is: Is it related to the sun, and if, how?

My first impression was that it’s a kind of rouge CME, running fast and unnoticed into Earth`s field and passing through. But there is no change in the speed of the sun-wind. But seeing the sudden drop of the density, This is not a signature of a CME. A CME builds up and ebbs then down:

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1585/densitydropmod.png (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/densitydropmod.png/)

It takes 12-120 hours for an CME to pass the distance sun-Earth, depending on its speed. So whatever caused the effects here, should have happened 12-120 hours earlier on the sun.
But I discovered this: At the same time we had the effect here, the suns surface temperature dropped below the level of the scale. See the sharp drop here:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2839/cmepeak2mod.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/cmepeak2mod.jpg/)

So its not a CME.

All this seems to be a very strong indication that there was a kind of strong magnetic pulse emanating from the sun. It increased temporary the magnetic field of the sun for about 20 minutes. This impacted just minutes later on the mag. field of Earth and resulted in a sudden increase of the particle density. The moment it stopped, the density dropped simultaneously.
This HICK UP of the sun is very strange.

.

Emmanuel

23rd April 2010, 00:52

Bashi, Via PM I already answer you. I would like to insist on the develop of the " aware system". Swami proposition is a must and could be implemented with the Avalon Administrator collaboration, he is way more tech in this issues and can be by subscription only................

jasontorque

25th April 2010, 10:27

Thank you for this is an excellent thread - productive and relevant in real world terms. I would also reference the Project Camelot interview with Patrick Geryl (at around 56 minutes in), where Bill mentions a very well known scientist. I think this snippet could have gone overlooked and is potentially very important..

bashi

25th April 2010, 14:26

Emm: you are more than overdue

jas: thanks, whoever takes the pain to digg will find something here. thats the purpose of this thread

bashi

25th April 2010, 14:50

There had been some speculation about one giant monster sunspot developing on the backside of the sun.
So lets have a look at that:
The sun has a rotational period of 27 days. So what is on the back will be in front 13.5 days later.
There are several programs out there to compute the farside.

This is a map of the backside from a somehow, I feel, more reliable source:

First, for comparision a sample from 2001.
A big sunspot developed in 2001 on the backside:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7876/carringtonmodpart.png (http://img293.imageshack.us/i/carringtonmodpart.png/)

Then 13.5 days later, but this time it has reached the earthside:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1834/carringtonmodpart2.png (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/carringtonmodpart2.png/)

Compared with the SOHO-picture of the same day:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2425/200103261200eit195512.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/200103261200eit195512.jpg/)

It shows an active sun with gigantic sunspots, but not a catastrophic CME. Nothing happened that time.

Now compare the first pic from 2001 farside with todays one:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3623/latestsyn2.gif (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/latestsyn2.gif/)

Conclusion: The sun is a present as quiet as can be, on both sides.

And even if there is something developing behind in future, it has not much to do with Earths space weather. The 13.5 days is a very long time and many sunspots are growing on the backside and disappearing before coming into the line of sight. Not to talk about predicting a CME scenario. At present I could not worry less about the backside.

Moringsong, thanks for the link

.

bashi

26th April 2010, 09:05

Hi folks,
Now this is Monday and i am supposed to do something else than to write this, but something happend:
I was recently discussing the Hick Ups of the sun and last night another of these were occurring. Nothing new, you will say, but this time it was accompanied by a CME into ALL directions.
Yes, ALL directions. Although the density of the CME appears to be very, very low, it was enough to trigger the CACTUS software.
You can see it here:

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/latestCMEs.html

The one with the asterisk in the halo? row

The density seems to be lower in the region of the solar poles.
One particular feature is making me nervous:
Look at the speed: Some parts are clearly over 2000 Km/sec, the limit of the system.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5903/speed0008.png (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/speed0008.png/)

Now, THAT’S a really fast CME.
It is this kind of CME I am most worried about. They are silent, fast and will hit without warning. There was no flare observed.
I wonder whether it will go beyond the detector-threshold at ACE, because of the low density. But if, then you should see an extraordinary rise in the wind-speed within the next hours. If this CME would be more dense, then we would be in deep trouble. But this one seems to be harmless.

PS: I am just recently paying more attention to the Hick Ups, so do not be too much alarmed. I am sure these Hick Ups happened before, but nobody was pointing it out. I also belief that similar CMEs were ejected in the past, without anybody here paying attention to it. It is highly unlikely that these phenomena just started to happen at the same moment we pay attention to it.

.

morguana

26th April 2010, 09:13

thank you bashi for your updates, we live in interesting times, so much is coming to light. i am particuly interested in the sun as i feel it mirrors other systems, eg, atoms, human chakra system, centre of our galaxy......as above so below/macro and micro

MorningSong

26th April 2010, 11:49

Yes, another thank-you for Bashi for getting this info out there and for being able to put it all in lay terms for us. Glad I can help in finding helpful tools.

Since I'm watching Solar wind, I watch for the increase.

And, btw, the 6.9-6.5 EQ near Taiwan/ Phillipines occurred a few minutes after this CME:

26Apr2010 02:59:48.6 22.2N 123.8E 10 MS=6.5 M*GSR SOUTHEAST OF TAIWAN 0437
26Apr2010 02:59:42.0 20.6N 124.4E 5 mb=5.9 *ROM PHILIPPINE ISLANDS REGION 0359
26Apr2010 02:59:50.2 22.2N 123.7E 10 M =6.9 M*NEI SOUTHEAST OF TAIWAN 0313

What a bunch of knots we have .... I wish I were smarter but I am still learning! lol

http://www.seismo.ethz.ch/redpuma/redpuma_ami_list.html

bashi

26th April 2010, 17:48

So, that CME has obviously come and passed between 12:00 and 17:00 . It was not a massive blow at once, but smoothed out because of the speed-distribution within the CME.

bashi

28th April 2010, 15:40

Lets go back to the ribbon, which NASA found.
Do you remember this Picture?

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5504/ribbonz.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/ribbonz.jpg/)

Showing the position of Voyager1 and 2 in respect of the ribbon.

Here another view of their position:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9906/voyagerpositions.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/voyagerpositions.png/)

P10 and P11 are the positions of Pioneer10/11

V1 and V2 have not just gone into different directions relative to Earth, but were just a little spread out to get a wider view into the area the solar system is heading. That narrow gap alone was enough for the ribbon to remain undetected.

It clearly shows how localized the ribbon is, and we are heading into it.

.

Swami

28th April 2010, 15:45

V1 and V2 have not just gone into different directions relative to Earth, but were just a little spread out to get a wider view into the area the solar system is heading. That narrow gap alone was enough for the ribbon to remain undetected.

What about Pioneer 11, will that one go through the Ribbon...?

lightblue

28th April 2010, 17:03

It clearly shows how localized the ribbon is, and we are heading into it.

under which angle?

bashi

28th April 2010, 17:22

What about Pioneer 11, will that one go through the Ribbon...?

P11 is long time dead.
Its RTG (radioisotope thermoelectric generator) is depleted more than 30 years ago

bashi

28th April 2010, 17:25

under which angel?

Under the angel with the biggest wings... :flypig:

lightblue

30th April 2010, 09:19

so, not possible to estimate...

then, may many big angels with as large wings carry us through...

bashi

30th April 2010, 16:03

I have never before seen 12 CMEs in a row within 30 hours. They are all low energetic level, but still....

http://sidc.oma.be/cactus/out/latestCMEs.html

Gestalt

30th April 2010, 16:18

Hi bashi. Me and samvado were busy discussing the effect of CME's on the grid. And he said something on the order of "CME's could melt overland lines".
I still question this, in that lightning strikes hit power-lines all the time, and the grid has adequate protection to endure through large surges.
After reading through this thread it seems the only serious concerns revolve around transformers that are not adequately protected.

Having my background in electrical engineering, specifically in grid design and relay protection I am having a hard time seeing why people are so concerned. Massive lightning bolts hit power lines and utilities all the time, and those are huge in-fluxes of electrons and yet everything keeps on operating. Relay protection responds and can disconnect connections between power lines in milliseconds, preventing system wide damage. Grid protection from surges is some of the most advanced electronic equipment in the world.

In regards to solarstorms this report seems to state we should be ok.....at least in Canada.

"Canadian infrastructure owners and operators have developed effective operating procedures to deal with the threat of geomagnetic storms. Also, advance warning systems such as ACE and SOHO are providing infrastructure owners and operators with the necessary information to prevent negative consequences due to GICs."
http://www.solarstorms.org/CanadaPipelines.html

The pictures you posted from Metatech are interesting, and I am looking through their site right now in order to understand their concerns. I don't know much about the Grid in the US...but you would think they would have adequate relay protection on their transformers. At least their big multi-million dollar ones, that do high voltage transmission.

bashi

30th April 2010, 20:43

The limited value of ACE and other satellites had been discussed, as the remaining time to react on an acute, real measurement, is in the order of minutes only in case of a fast CME.

The last significant CME, which hit on 29th 01:30 , had a speed of over 2000 km/sec and reached Earth in less than 20 hours.
If countermeasures are only implemented after ACE measures it, then around 10 minutes is the time-frame.

GICs cause a so called „half cycle saturation“ in the transformers, which leads to reactive power consumption inside the transformer.
It basically throws the transformer out of their optimized performance mode.
That leads to
- overheating
- resonance in harmonic filters
- AC power distortion

These effects are no comparable with the ones of lightning. This is not a sudden single burst which circuit breakers can easily handle, but a slow misbalancing of the transformers. The damage is not done by the energy of the GICs, but by turning the power of the grid against the transformer by increasing its internal power consumption. A few amperes of DC load can kill an 800 MW AC transformer, if not compensated.

To install capacitors can mitigate this partially. If you use a capacitor against neutral, then you can have VERY high currents due to single-line-to-ground fault. That’s even more risky, because in that case you are discharging huge caps against ground through the grid, which will produce very high overvoltages.
Mainly medium power distribution transformers will be affected.
I heard that they have started to install in-series-caps which should take care of this problem. Whether these measures are working, who knows?
Lets hope the best.

.

bashi

30th April 2010, 20:50

Now in detail:

A transformer core is made of high permeability ferromagnetic material. Its purpose is to provide a well defined low reluctance path for magnetic flux. During normal operation, the majority of the flux will stay in the core. However, in the presence of GICs, the response of the transformer core towards magnetisation current is altered. The offset of the origin of the steel core magnetisation curve will cause the core to saturate at a lower value than its rated excitation value and operate in the extremely nonlinear portion.
Due to the quasi-dc nature of GICs this will occur for one half of the ac cycle, hence the term
half-cycle saturation, the root-cause of all power system problems that occur during geomagnetic storms.

Here the magnetisation curve in the presence of GIC:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1629/gic00.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/gic00.jpg/)

The saturated core under GIC bias becomes a much higher reluctance path which requires more ampere-turns to produce the amount of flux required. This will cause the transformer to draw a large excitation current, rich in even and odd harmonics and thus a greater reactive power demand than during normal operation, thereby overheating the unit. In effect, GICs turn the many transformers on a network into sinks of reactive power and sources of harmonic currents which in turn can overload shunt capacitor banks.
When GICs saturate a transformer or reactor the magnetic flux seeks alternative paths such as the tank wall, flux shields, clamps and other structural steel members. The leakage flux will cause circulating eddy currents that will lead to the creation of hot spots that can severely damage a transformer or reactor. These hot spots are likely to cause a cumulative damaging effect on the winding insulation, causing premature failure.

Shunt capacitors are protected with neutral overcurrent relays. Harmonics arising from transformer saturation will see these capacitors as low impedances to ground and may cause over current tripping.
However, this should not be labelled a false trip, since shunt capacitors need to be protected against overload due to harmonics. However, the problem that this may cause is that there is an increased dependence of power systems on reactive power compensation and such a trip could lead to a collapse of the network.
This is what caused the collapse of the power grid in Quebec in March 1989. It was just one bank of old caps which prevented the collapse to spread into the US.

Here some data from South Africa :

To determine the location and severity of GICs the geomagnetic data of the very severe storm on 13 March 1989 was used for the modelling. During this storm the magnetic field variance reached levels exceeding 124 nT/min in South Africa.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5288/gic01.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/gic01.jpg/)

These are estimated figures.

During the strong storm of 31 March 2001 a GIC of only 6 Ampere caused a sixth harmonic in the neutral (which indicates transformer saturation) peaking at 13 Amps. This occurred while the transformer was only utilised at less than 60% of its rated value.
This indicates that reactors which are operated much closer to their full rated value could easily
saturate and thus be damaged by low levels of GICs.

And Finland:
The behavior of a new 400/400/125 MVA transformer type under under DC-excitation conditions was studied. The risk of excessive reactive power transfer in the network due to a simultanious saturation of several system transformers and consequent risk of voltage/network collaps was evaluated.

"The table of measured GIC (triggered when neutral current I > 20 [A]) during the measurment period shows that the DC component mostly was at about ±5 [A], while the max/min values of the (higher-frequency) neutral current reached about ±25 [A].

Kp was 6,7 or 8 during these trigged measurements.

- The 150 Hz current plots shows a concistent but asymmertric curve shape.
- Total harmonic distortion (THD) in the 420 kV voltage reached a peak during the geomagnetic storm on the 18 February 1999.
- The static VAr compensator (SVC) started during this storm.

Potential or observed effects from GIC on 400 kV transformer at OKG. Overheating in GSU, increase in reactive power consumption, harmonics produces increase in temperature in generator and more."

.

Gestalt

1st May 2010, 06:04

Just to clarify....power lines will not 'melt' during a CME, be they above ground or underground?

And the only concern during a CME is TX's not adequately protected by Relay's and capacitors?

GICs cause a so called „half cycle saturation“ in the transformers, which leads to reactive power consumption inside the transformer.
It basically throws the transformer out of their optimized performance mode.
That leads to
- overheating
- resonance in harmonic filters
- AC power distortion

Your standard transformer is usually equipped with a relatively cheap relay that monitors these factors and will trip a circuit breaker before a transformer overheats. RTD's are installed on most TX's...and can be monitered quite well with something like this (http://www.selinc.com/sel-787/). Harmonics in the system are usually actively monitored as well. As well if there is any current flowing in the neutral its usually a sure sign something is wrong and a CB trips.

Hmmm, now my next question is there a way of disconnecting the neutral ground wire from a TX via a CB??? You would think so....

bashi

1st May 2010, 06:45

Power lines will not melt. That is nonsense. Samvado has not done his homework, as usual.

But now, as my pseudo-scientific ranting has attracted a real expert, let me take advantage and ask also some questions:

With all these protective measures in place, how did the Quebec collapse happen?

So you are saying that Canada's grid will be safe now?

If so, what has been implemented?

Why then is the US grid in danger? Remember, the report was not made by me , but by experts in 2008.

Is it that the Americans have missed the call or are the implemented measures useless?

If anything had been implemented in the US as a result of 1989, what was that?

How long does it take for operators to implement conservative operating procedures once they have received an advance warning of a storm threat?

What will these procedures be?

Anything?

samvado

1st May 2010, 12:57

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Power lines will not melt. That is nonsense. Samvado has not done his homework, as usual.

excuse me, bashi, "as usual?" - where else have I not done "my homework". if you cant prove it dont mention it because it becomes libel.

now, in this particular case I was quoting you "from memory" meaning I might have misunderstood or mis-remembered what you said.
didnt you explain somewhere that during an CME the current induced is a function of the length of the conductor?
i asked you if coils would be long conductors which you answered in the affirmative - remember?
if that is so arnt overland lines really long conductors?

lightblue

1st May 2010, 13:53

bashi,
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
lithe :pout:

Gestalt

1st May 2010, 15:50

Power lines will not melt. That is nonsense. Samvado has not done his homework, as usual.

LOL, that was too funny.

But now, as my pseudo-scientific ranting has attracted a real expert, let me take advantage and ask also some questions:

With all these protective measures in place, how did the Quebec collapse happen?

From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec's_electricity_transmission_system):
"At 2:44 am on March 13, 1989, a severe geomagnetic storm, due to a coronal mass ejection from the Sun, struck Earth.[85][86] Fluctuations within the magnetic field of the storm caused geomagnetically induced currents (GICs) to flow through Quebec's power lines, which are direct current, instead of the alternating current carried by the power lines.[85] The insulating nature of the Canadian Shield igneous rock directed the GICs to the power lines. The conductors then forwarded this current to sensitive electrical transformers, which require a certain voltage amplitude and frequency to function properly. Although most GICs are relatively feeble, the nature of those currents destabilized the voltage of the power grid and current spikes erupted everywhere.[85]

Accordingly, protective measures were taken in response. To save the transformers and other electrical equipment, the power grid was taken out of commission, as circuit breakers tripped all over Quebec and shut off the power.[87] Within less than 90 seconds, this wave of breaking circuits left the entire transmission grid out of service. The collapsed power grid left six million people and the rest of Quebec without electricity for hours on a very cold night. Even though the blackout lasted around nine hours for most places, some locations were in the dark for days. This geomagnetic storm caused about C$10 million in damage to Hydro-Québec and tens of millions to the customers of the utility.[85]"

There was too much current entering TX's, relays tripped, which shut the grid system down to prevent damage and this knocks out power to millions of people. The power going out is a GOOD THING in this case, in that protective measures are working. If we do get another CME, and it induces GIC into the grid, we will have blackouts, for the duration of the CME, and then things can go back to normal right after...or shortly after. ;) This is the way its supposed to work.

So you are saying that Canada's grid will be safe now?

If so, what has been implemented?

from this wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm)entry:
"The James Bay network went offline in less than 90 seconds, giving Quebec its second massive blackout in 11 months.[6] The power failure lasted 9 hours and forced the company to implement various mitigation strategies, including raising the trip level, installing series compensation on ultra high voltage lines and upgrading various monitoring and operational procedures. Other utilities in North America, the UK, Northern Europe and elsewhere implemented programs to reduce the risks associated with geomagnetically induced currents.[5]"

Why then is the US grid in danger? Remember, the report was not made by me , but by experts in 2008.

Is it that the Americans have missed the call or are the implemented measures useless?

If anything had been implemented in the US as a result of 1989, what was that?

How long does it take for operators to implement conservative operating procedures once they have received an advance warning of a storm threat?

What will these procedures be?

Anything?

I am running out of time and will try to addresses some of your questions later in the day. Just let me say the US, and its infrastructure worry me. The reason is their capitalistic economic system and deregulation measures, they might not adhere to the same kind of standards that the rest of the more 'socialist' developed nations do. They have had failures on the grid, from sheer stupidity...I will reference later.

now, in this particular case I was quoting you "from memory" meaning I might have misunderstood or mis-remembered what you said.
didnt you explain somewhere that during an CME the current induced is a function of the length of the conductor?
i asked you if coils would be long conductors which you answered in the affirmative - remember?
if that is so arnt overland lines really long conductors?

bashi was explaining the theory of induced currents from a CME. You made your OWN conclusions based on his theoretical explanations, he never came to the same conclusion you did. Yes a CME may induce some voltage and therefore current into powerlines, however the amount pales in comparison to that of a lightning strike. In any case long distance powerlines are usally protected by a dual(manufacturer) redundancy system that trips out in an overvoltage/current situation. IT DOSENT MATTER what the source is if its a GIC, phase to ground, phase-phase, or a 3-phase fault, CB's will trip within a few cycles due to their protection. Powerlines are inherently protected via their relays from any situation that creates unbalance or over/under/voltage/current. This includes effects from a CME, thus a utility does not necessarily have to have an active/separate system or protocol for dealing with CME's, although it may help give warning in alerting of an impending blackout. However better protection is good no matter what the circumstances are.

bashi,
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
lithe :pout:

Ok, your graphite/blackout bomb is really not a good comparison. Its predicated on ONLY creating shorts between uninsulated wires, and even then a powerline can handle a phase to phase short no problem, and will trip a CB. It's like if a tree fell across a powerline and created a phase to phase short.....utlility's/grids have protection measures that are specifically designed for this type of scenario. Or the wind knocks over a transmission line, or what have you (Ice storms), utility's aren't stupid.

samvado

1st May 2010, 16:31

LOL, that was too funny.

I wouldnt as yet laugh too hard, either Bashi was mistaken, what would hardly be MY fault. or he wrote it in a way that was easy to misinterpret.

look at page 12 - as you can see I am not in favor of SLANDER in any form or shape. I do my homework. I am not a specialist as you are but I also have studied (some) physics.

So how does this effect us ?
First physics:
It is the effect of a changing magnetic field, which induces a voltage in a conductor. The general rules for this inductive voltage are:
- The stronger the mag field, the higher the voltage.
- The faster the change of the mag. Field during a specific time, called the magnetic variation, the higher the voltage. The mag. variation can be measured in nT/min (Nano-Tesla per minute).
- Finally, the longer the conductor, the higher the voltage.

So, a high voltage can be induced in even very short cables, if the mag.field is strong and very fast changing.
Also a high voltage can be induced in a cable by a weak mag. field which is only slowly changing, as long as the cable is very long.

lightblue

1st May 2010, 17:11

bashi,
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
lithe

thanks gestalt
but i really wanted bashi's comment
bw l

bashi

1st May 2010, 22:52

excuse me, bashi, "as usual?" - where else have I not done "my homework". if you cant prove it dont mention it because it becomes libel.

I don't want to be labeled as a libelist, so you are forcing me to do this:

1. "There was a second post regarding a flight-path.
You tried to respond on that, but did you take your time to really read the article you have linked?

http://www.dlr.de/blogs/desktopdefau...blogyear-2010/

Obviously not, otherwise you would have noticed that this is a complete different issue and a different plane in a different country. People without german language knowledge might get disinformed by looking on the picture.
Or did you knew that and posted just disinfo? I think not, just your typical way of not maintaining due diligence."

That was from my post here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1305-Important-audio-interview-with-Dr-Bill-Deagle-April-2010&p=12763&viewfull=1#post12763

2. You claim to be a scientist with expertise in biology, but to get info about codon sequencing, you have to ask a biologist by e-mail. The response you posted then in this forum as your proof. A real scientist would have quoted the literature and then linked it. No homework again.
If you insist, then i will find your post.

So your conclusions regarding the melting of power-lines are of the same category, as usual.

Will you sue me now?

.

bashi

1st May 2010, 22:55

thanks gestalt
but i really wanted bashi's comment
bw l

Are you referring to a manmade or natural phenomena?

samvado

1st May 2010, 23:57

2. You claim to be a scientist with expertise in biology, but to get info about codon sequencing, you have to ask a biologist by e-mail. The response you posted then in this forum as your proof. A real scientist would have quoted the literature and then linked it. No homework again.
If you insist, then i will find your post.

what kind of b/s are you talking here? I didnt have to ASK that guy, I never asked anyone in that case, I googled the issue and that guy had already written it all out - in better english than i ever could - would you expect me to write it again just so you could be the judge of me having done my homework? is there a limit to stupidity?

So your conclusions regarding the melting of power-lines are of the same category, as usual.
Will you sue me now?
[/SIZE]

.

no, I never intended to sue you - however I WAS taking you seriously enough to be concerned about you slandering me (if blue777 had done that I wouldnt have graced it with a comment at all)

however, your childish retort shows me that that impression might have been in error.
a simple "sorry" would have been quite suffcient.

Gestalt

2nd May 2010, 00:37

I wouldnt as yet laugh too hard, either Bashi was mistaken, what would hardly be MY fault. or he wrote it in a way that was easy to misinterpret.

I was being sarcastic by laughing at you sam. I consider you to be quite well read and educated, however I think there was a clear misunderstanding here and maybe a bit of jumping to conclusions on your part. I can understand how you might interpret the rising voltage in conductors as 'melting', however bashi never used such terminology or made such conclusions.

The technical language and worst case probabilities discussed in this thread might lead one to believe a CME would send us to the stone age, however there is a clear (or maybe not so clear) distinction between probability worst-case-scenarios and the actually likelihood of said events occurring. bashi I have to admit deciphering some of your posts can be a bit challenging at times, and I assume its that you naturally think in a very theoretical way or your native language is not English, or maybe both? In any case I value your input, there is much I learned from this thread and your posts, especially about the sun.

Swami

2nd May 2010, 01:31

OOOOH boy,

THE discussion....................

:twitch:

Now....... WHERE does reality sets in..........................??????
(To all followers,.................. what about Cointelpro...............)

:violin:

Where have I SMELLED this before........................

Swami

2nd May 2010, 01:39

I give tou:

3,5 MHZ
250 Watts

samvado

2nd May 2010, 14:58

I was being sarcastic by laughing at you sam. that did not escape me :-)

I consider you to be quite well read and educated, however I think there was a clear misunderstanding here and maybe a bit of jumping to conclusions on your part. I can understand how you might interpret the rising voltage in conductors as 'melting', however bashi never used such terminology or made such conclusions.
The technical language and worst case probabilities discussed in this thread might lead one to believe a CME would send us to the stone age,

I certainly dont want to be alarmist, in fact I am probaly one of the more rational forum members. but pls consider this:

1) 1859 is only 150 years away, a small period of time - that event was borderline destructive, it would not haVE SENT US TO STONEAGE but would have created large failures in the grid and com systems.
2) The sun is capable of much larger CMEs - if it gets a lot worse (say 500% more) how will that affect the grid?
3) even about the 1859 event this has been said:

Other anecdotal tales of the “Great Super Flare of 1959” include telegraph operators getting shocked by their equipment, sometimes even after the battery was disconnected! ..... One telegraph office was even known to have caught fire as a result of the current induced by the storm.

source (http://astroguyz.com/2009/08/26/remembering-the-super-flare-of-1859/)

4) what EXACTLY did bashi mean when he on page 12 said:

These induced electric fields of the GICs are in the range of 5-10 V/km only.
They would not hurt you. Also computers or any stand-alone electronic equipment is unlikely to get affected, as long as not connected to long exterior cables (power-grid, telephone line).
For example: If you attach an antenna of 1 meter length to the power-supply of your PC, it will add only 0.005-0.010 Volts; compared to 110 Volts its nothing. Therefore all the prep with faraday-cages are useless.
It would not help, because there is no need for it, in case of an E3 pulse.
So, if you want to prepare for that, then what should you do?

You will need to prepare for a life without electricity, far away from cities and towns. Learn how to live without all these extras, acquire basic knowledge of essential processes.
Basically become a prepper and
For a worst case scenario: Learn how to live without food.
Oh yes, i am serious!

Peace of Mind

2nd May 2010, 15:46

could this be other possible evidence to what is coming?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQM5FBQGsc

tbh...i can hardly wait to conclude these next few years. i'm kinda getting tired of all the speculations and negative treatment of each other.

Peace

Nagual

2nd May 2010, 16:33

Giant asteroid to hit earth november 8 2011 ???

MP0US7UmL0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP0US7UmL0g

bashi

2nd May 2010, 16:33

that did not escape me :-)

I certainly dont want to be alarmist, in fact I am probaly one of the more rational forum members. but pls consider this:

1) 1859 is only 150 years away, a small period of time - that event was borderline destructive, it would not haVE SENT US TO STONEAGE but would have created large failures in the grid and com systems.
2) The sun is capable of much larger CMEs - if it gets a lot worse (say 500% more) how will that affect the grid?

Yes sam, you are right. This is what i hinted at, when i referred to solar events of the YOUNGER PAST, many posts earlier.
I will post something regarding the ancient time...

.

bashi

2nd May 2010, 16:52

BTW, has anybody noticed the geo-mag storm of today?

Gestalt

2nd May 2010, 17:17

Were experiencing a geomagnetic storm right now!
Prepare yourselves, head for the hills!!!!

http://www.n3kl.org/sun/noaa.html

bashi

2nd May 2010, 17:50

Yes, BTW, head for the hill... i am there :first:

But,

- from where did it come?
- had there been any warning?

Emmanuel

2nd May 2010, 17:53

bashi

2nd May 2010, 17:58

I just found this from 2006 "intended for discussion only" http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/esp_hercolobus_63.htm

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Hey Gestalt & Bashi are you serious or I still have time to tour Europe next month?

No, relax. I just made a follow up from Gestalt.
sorry, i know its not good.
i dont think there is something to this storm. the magnetic variation is not high.

zelda

2nd May 2010, 18:15

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/today.html

Gestalt

2nd May 2010, 22:23

Back on subject. After doing extensive reading on CME's and the effect on the electrical grid, I would say there is room for moderate concern if a Carrington (1859) event were to occur again in the near future.

A lot of the effects of such an event are unknown, because it is incredibly hard to model GICs, but needless to say it would be safe to assume transmission and power lines should be ok. The only real concern is transformers that are not adequately protected. Newer transformers should be, and larger ones providing central grid support ones should be as well. In a worst case scenario hundreds of substation TX's might blow, knocking out electricity to some areas for at worst several years.

The primary concern is GIC entering TX's via their neutral grounding point. However this can be easily remedied utilizing a relatively cheap neutral ground resistor like so:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2009/04/17/gridmetatech.jpg

It is up to governments and municipalities to ensure these protective measures have been taken. And this is the part that concerns me the most. Supposedly Canada is fully prepared, and the US seems to be about 50% prepared as of right now, but Obama has plans for modernizing the grid which gives me hope there. I can't comment on Europe, but seems the UK is aware of these problems and is implementing protective measures.

If a Carrington event were to occur again, blackouts might ensue for several days. This is normal and power should come back on shortly. If massive amounts of current were to enter into the grid, relays would trip in order to protect the grid. Depending on the length of bombardment the grid might stay off until the event passes. In any case I don't think it will send us back to the stone age, so I wouldn't stay awake at night worrying about it.

For more information check these resources:

Kappenmans original Presentation:
http://www.midwestreliability.org/00_events/2009_CIP_Workshop/10._Kappenman_MRO_Dec1_2009.pdf

An excellent wired article about this:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/2012storms/

Severe Space Weather Events--Understanding Societal and Economic Impacts: A Workshop Report
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12507&page=77

lightblue

2nd May 2010, 23:19

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Default Re: (Scientific) Evidence for What's Coming

bashi,
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
lithe

bashi:
[QUOTE]Are you referring to a manmade or natural phenomena?

both

one is man made, another natural...how do they compare?
- about the same
- natural somewhat worse, or
- natural a lot worse

- depends on good/bad luck

thanks l :yu:

bashi

3rd May 2010, 17:44

[QUOTE]

bashi,
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
lithe

how do they compare?
- about the same
- natural somewhat worse, or
- natural a lot worse

- depends on good/bad luck

thanks l :yu:

Manmade: I think you got a taste of it in Serbia, when NATO used these:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-114.htm

These bombs interrupt only temporarily the grid without destroying the infrastructure.
They are childs-game against nature's bombs.

There is a good example for it: The Clovis-comet, which blew up North America 12900 years ago.
It was a one time event, not Nibiru.
Interesting is how fiercly main stream science is fighting this hypothesis. The scientists had to address the public directly to make their results known.
That make someone think...

General overview:

QKoG5AVb1MY&feature=related

Scientific public presentation (7 parts):

f1GCgOI3B1o&feature=related

.

bashi

3rd May 2010, 18:26

For more information check these resources:

Kappenmans original Presentation:
http://www.midwestreliability.org/00_events/2009_CIP_Workshop/10._Kappenman_MRO_Dec1_2009.pdf

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12507&page=77

Nice post Gestalt, but the first link is experiencing a CME (Connection Mess Event).

lightblue

3rd May 2010, 18:45

Manmade: I think you got a taste of it in Serbia, when NATO used these:

don’t i know it? your bet is good…that’s why i wanted a comparison, my question was clear enough, didn't need clarification you were after
how would a destructive blast of CME compare to a desctructive power of a "blackout bomb/graphite bomb", for example...just trying to imagine how bad a bad CME can be...
never mind, i take it you meant CME is a lot worse. ..
i didn’t care to hear about the comets, but thanks anyway..l

bashi

3rd May 2010, 19:03

don’t i know it? your bet is good…that’s why i wanted a comparison, my question was clear enough, didn't need clarification you were after
never mind, i take it you meant CME is a lot worse. ..
i didn’t care to hear about the comets, but thanks anyway..l

Dont worry, the roller-coaster post is coming; but not today.

lightblue

3rd May 2010, 19:08

i don't worry and i won't care for roller-coaster posts..all yours...i lost interest.
best wishes l :)

Gestalt

3rd May 2010, 21:51

Nice post Gestalt, but the first link is experiencing a CME (Connection Mess Event).

Huh? Please explain. What is a Connection Mess Event?
On slide 19 it specifically states: Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) I am very confused as to what you are referring too.

debzqld

3rd May 2010, 23:35

lol smat - you hit it on the head - there is just so much going on - like you I have read it all too - it's no wonder people are hiding in front of the tv though - it is too much for most to comprehend. Like you I plant little seeds of thought - but most look at me wide-eyed in sheer disblief (even when I barely touch on 'out-there' topics and respond: 'that' can't possibly happen or be going on, or simply state: well I haven't seen anything about that on tv, in the news or in the newspapers! And I respond well you won't either because that would cause mass hysteria. I tell them that: "the internet is there for those who have a desire to re-educate themselves and this way only the seekers and truly curious will search for what really is going on in the world around them. If you don't know wheere to start I am happy to show you". The truth is we may all sort of look alike from the physical aspect - but our evolution on the inside is all over the place. Tread gently my friend as I am sure you are and keep researching. Peace.

lightblue

4th May 2010, 08:21

gestalt,

your first link (of the 3 listed, post #232) is blanc... doesn't work.. bw l ;)

Gestalt

4th May 2010, 14:41

gestalt,
your first link (of the 3 listed, post #232) is blanc... doesn't work.. bw l ;)

It works fine for me.
However it begins to load a 13.3 mb pdf slideshow document with lots of images. Maybe you are clicking to fast around, or you have a slow internet connection? You are probably just not waiting long enough for it to download.
What browser are you using? Do you have a script or popup blocker enabled? Do you have adobe pdf reader installed?

bashi

4th May 2010, 16:55

Same for me:

"The connection has timed out.
The server at www.midwestreliability.org is taking too long to respond."

Gestalt

4th May 2010, 17:22

Same for me:
"The connection has timed out.
The server at www.midwestreliability.org is taking too long to respond."

What country are you guys located in?
The original download link is here near the bottom of the page under presentations:
http://www.midwestreliability.org/events_CIP.html

If that still doesn't work try downloading it from here (http://files.me.com/metagestalt/4hyziz)
Oh and its 3.7mb not 13.3mb.

bashi

5th May 2010, 21:44

Here a nice mag strom animation:

http://www.metatechcorp.com/aps/SuperStormAnimation.html

bashi

9th May 2010, 21:07

The IBEX satellite is sweeping the whole sky twice a year and
NASA announced that they will publicise every 6 months new stellar maps depicting the ribbon.
The first announcement was made on 15th October 2009, and the public accessible data files were from the 13th October.
These are accessible here:

http://ibexwtst.space.swri.edu/researchers/publicdata.shtml

Everybody was expecting that in the middle of April 2010 the next sky map would be presented to the public. This has not happened yet and no explanation was given why it is delayed.
The satellite works very well and no significant communication glitches were reported.

We can only speculate why the publication is delayed for nearly a month. Maybe there is nothing to it, but maybe there is…

bashi

12th May 2010, 23:10

It looks like as if Voyager 2 is in trouble :

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2010-151

lightblue

13th May 2010, 00:07

it's doomed.

this is not a question l

bashi

14th May 2010, 21:53

I did some pinging because of the delayed publication of the IBEX datasets. My source tells me that the satellite works perfect, that the second dataset has been received long time ago and the second map is also ready since. More than 50% of the third dataset has been already received.

According to the source, the delay is partly caused by lengthy publication procedures.
I learned also that the IBEX science team is struggeling to find an explanation of the data which they are seeing and are trying to fit it into a model. This model is supposed be an essential part of the publication and is causing also the delay.

That source refused to comment on any scientific content of the new dataset, despite persistent questioning.

.

bashi

16th May 2010, 23:31

The CME events discussed up to now were occurring only in the younger past.
It seems that the cosmos is not only dominated by gravitational forces, but that electric forces are also playing an important part.
Only then these gigantic plasmatic events can be explained, which are observed in many active areas of the cosmos.
Our solar system seemed to have experienced the events in its past also.

Is there any historic or archaeological evidence for a much more violent behaviour of our sun in the past?
In fact there are indications existing that Earth had experienced far more dramatic solar events in the ancient history.

For example, here a medieval pic from Zürich:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5623/zurichaurora.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/zurichaurora.jpg/)

Please note the red sky and the fact that Zürich is around 47° latitude.
For comparision here some more recent pics from auroral events:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3982/auroral.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/auroral.jpg/)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3148/aurora3i.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/aurora3i.jpg/)

Are there signs of even more dramatic events in ancient time?

To answer that, it has to be determined first what we are looking for.

In the view of the electric universe theory, the sun and Earth are giant charged bodies with a very strong electric field in between them. The vacuum of space is an efficient insulator against any “shortcuts” between these bodies.
But what will happen, if suddenly there is a plasmatic area appearing which is stretching from the sun all the way to Earth? Lets call this area “the ribbon”.
Is it possible that this ribbon can function like a gigantic cable of cosmic currents which can “shortcut” the Sun with Earth?
If so, extremely high auroric currents – same as during an extreme CME - would flow between the Sun and Earth, and they would have a very distinct appearance. Why?

Because it has been demonstrated in laboratories that extreme high plasmatic currents, so called Birkeland currents, are having some very unique patterns of appearance, due to the interaction of plasma and electromagnetic fields.

Kristian Birkeland, a Norwegian scientist, made high current plasmatic experiments and discovered that very high currents are having very particular behaviours and appearances. These appearances are produced by the electro-magnetic fields of the very same currents. It’s a kind of feed-back where the current shapes itself
The peculiar appearances are called Birkeland elements and one particular feature is called “z-pinch”.

Here is Birkeland with a model of Earth in his lab around 1900:

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9927/birkelandlab.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/birkelandlab.jpg/)

In the experiments a giant globe was placed in a box within a very high electric field. Then the lab conditions were altered slightly to make the plasmatic shortcut through Birkeland currents possible. You can – more dramatically- say, “they let the ribbon into the box.”
Then this happened:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5272/spherezpinch.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/spherezpinch.jpg/)

The globe was more or less “electrocuted”:

Intense plasmatic currents were forming in a peculiar pattern, displaying always 56 plasmatic streamers, which burned their circular mark on the globe:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9862/spherezpinch2.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/i/spherezpinch2.jpg/)

The higher the currents, the more widespread were the patterns, moving to lower latitudes.

Have similar plasmatic flux ropes hit the Earth is ancient history?

If so the unique Birkeland elements may have been depicted somewhere.

A very typical Birkeland element is this, produced by computer simulation:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3028/squattermanelectric.png (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/squattermanelectric.png/)

Clearly visible are the unusual “Birkeland element” features of this extreme high current.

Can this very unique pattern be found on ancient rock scratching/carvings, the so called petroglyphs?

.