PDA

View Full Version : It's evolution folks!



Youniverse
16th January 2013, 19:18
Hi all. I just wanted to post this thread in response to all the commotion over the gun debate in America right now, and as a general message for anyone interested in keeping an open mind. It seems like most of the threads concerning the American gun debate on this forum, come from those who are either overly obsessed with conspiracies, or somewhere in between a conspiracy theorist and someone that turns more inward for answers on how to proceed.

I'm not here to discount anyone's beliefs or opinions regarding possible conspiracies by the American government or the Illuminati or whomever. I just want to attempt to add a bit of sanity to the fray of occasional extremist positions. So maybe there are some 'big conspiracies' going on with world governments, I will grant anyone that. Should we let fear and paranoia govern our actions or come from the infinately superior basis of love? Take the recent school shooting in Newtown, Conn. for example. One possibility(although a completely insane one in many respects) is that it was a staged event, all part of some grand conspiracy to do who knows what. As a father of a six year old son that possibility more than outrages me. Another possibility that some seem to have completely over-looked in their busy-ness to dish out conspiratorial paranoia(which spreads fear to more and more people, not a constructive way), is that increased gun control in the wake of this horrific massacre is more about social and moral evolution. And IMHO this is long overdue with respect to the gun culture in America.

I'm Canadian but I love America. I love Americans. I want the best for Americans, as I would for any nation. The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living. I've heard a couple times now on CNN, a conspiracy 'paranoia' more than a theory, that assault weapons must be kept by American citizens in the event of the remote yet real possibility that their gov't might someday turn on them. Let me entertain that rationalization(if one can call it that) for a moment. If that were to happen, first of all, do you really think civilians would stand a chance for a second against the might of the world's most powerful army(if all the army were to follow orders in something that crazy). What I believe would happen in such a scenario, is that most of the military would refuse to follow that order anyways and actually turn on the government. Speaking of which, do you really believe absolutely ALL, or even a sizeable minority of the government would be united in their agenda(of attacking their own citizens) to get away with it? Wouldn't it be reasonable to presume that those in the federal gov't that would completely oppose such an action would do their best to sabotage the evil plan? Look what happened in Egypt during the Arab Spring. Didn't most of the army refuse to follow Mubarak's order(or potential order) to turn on their own people. I'd like to ask the people that believe in this kind of possibility, why would the U.S. Federal Gov't need to do that when they and the rest of the keepers of the over-culture already have most people wrapped around their finger, enslaved through propaganda that has permeated into almost every aspect of modern society? There are too many factors at work here to make such crazy assumptions. Still some choose to focus on a couple factors and ignore the rest.

I'd like to suggest to anyone that hasn't read Thom Hartmann's book "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" to do so sometime. The reason I believe his book is relevant to this gun and violent crime(including mass shootings like Newtown) issue in the U.S. and the world, is that it emphasizes the significance of CULTURE in determing the reality one experiences. In the U.S. there is a gun culture that has been way out of control for quite some time. The suggestions I heard Obama make today are only the beginning of an evolution past the need for any kind of weapon, especially assault rifles. People say, why so much focus on assault rifles that account for such a small percentage of these crimes? No one's saying other types of gun crimes shouldn't be looked closer at and proposals made for deterring those crimes. It's just that the spectacle and utter shock of incidents like Sandy Hook School are exceptional in their immediate impact. They happen fast as opposed to crimes that are continual over long periods of time. Indeed, both issues need to be dealt with comprehensively.

Back to Thom Hartmann's book though. He uses a word "wetiko'" to describe the kind of cutlure that began around the time of the Sumerians that we still have today. Wetiko refers to the insanity of this "New or Younger Cuture." I'm not going to repeat all his points here. You can read for yourself and see what you think. The main point I want to express here is the kind of INSANITY that is inherent in the dominator, seperatist, exploitative with nature and humans-type culture that we share and play a part in perpetuating. Hartmann provides a great deal of evidence for the lack of the insanity we experience now, in those "Older Cultures" that lasted tens of thousands of years in many cases with little or no crime. When people think, speak, and act as if they really are seperate from everyone else, a mindset is in place that makes these kind of atrocities like Newtown much more possible(I would say inevitable). By the way, as Hartmann says, the greatest measure of a vital society in the older tribal cultures was security. Once we get closer to the kinds of ideals they held, IMHO we will see less and less of the kinds of slaughter that is more and more a common occurence in the U.S. and other places. Let's become ever more united together to create the kind of reality where these tragedies are impossible(a vague memory of a time when barbarians ruled the planet).

Focussing on conspiracy theories is not going to get you where you want to go my friends. Some of you might do well to entertain the possibility once in awhile, that Obama isn't the Anti-Christ or some kind of monster that you fantasize about. I don't know if he is or isn't, though I do feel that often when he speaks, he speaks with a clarity and compassion I don't hear from some of his worst critics. Start from the heart! Some of us are thinking primarily or exclusively with our heads and not the heart. My heart tells me to pay attention the most closely to the Mothers and Fathers of the victims, and my heart bleeds for them, it cries out to them. I put myself in their shoes and wonder what I would do. I promise you, if something like what happened to those kids at Sandy Hook ever happened to my little guy, I'd go on a mission for rapid transformation of society with all the power of mind, body, and spirit. I'd be like a dead man walking(as far as I'd be concerned anyways) to accomplish what it takes to stop this from happening anymore. I'd do all the dirty work myself if I had to. I'd stop at nothing short of those things that would make me the same as the callous and disturbed individuals that perpetrate these crimes. No matter what happens, you have to create from the heart, or you become the same as the murderer. I'm not seperating myself from the people that commit these murders either. By declaring my oneness with all, I continually work toward the healing of all as I heal myself. Bless you all.

TargeT
16th January 2013, 19:51
The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living..


How about:

The insanity of violent crime needs to stop.

That's a much better way of saying it, you are being highly disrespectful to the various knife stabbings, blunt object brutalities, vehicular assaults and "hand to hand" violence that occurs as well as needlessly narrowing an actual problem to pointless specifics.



Do you consider an "evolved" human stupid and untrustworthy ?

This is basically what you are saying. I consider everyone a responsible adult and any attempts to change this will cause problems (as we have now) the more "restrictions" the more "limits" placed on an INDIVIDUAL the more issues you will have.

we do NOT need gun control, gun control does nothing helpful, nothing shows that it does and with the HIGH proliferation of fire arms in the US the chances of any real action being taken to curtail them is slim to none.

modwiz
16th January 2013, 20:00
There must be laxatives for the mind now or, the Matrix is doing a wonderful job of getting its sufferers to cover for it. Just like Morpheus tells Neo.

Rahkyt
16th January 2013, 20:06
The main point I want to express here is the kind of INSANITY that is inherent in the dominator, seperatist, exploitative with nature and humans-type culture that we share and play a part in perpetuating. Hartmann provides a great deal of evidence for the lack of the insanity we experience now, in those "Older Cultures" that lasted tens of thousands of years in many cases with little or no crime.

Thank you for your passion.

The point you make above, I think, is key.

In this culture - now practically world-wide - the above is unthinkable and nigh inconceivable.

I see little chance of resolution of the issues currently leading to extreme gun violence without an Armageddon, frankly. Too many people want it. So they shall have it.

Lettherebelight
16th January 2013, 20:11
Yes, we're evolving, but into what?

Seems to me if we allow it, we'll just evolve into another species of domesticated creatures.

Evolution doesn't happen by government control. It is a natural process...no need for help from Big Bro!

greybeard
16th January 2013, 20:34
The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight is a great read thanks Youniverse for reminding me.
Chris

Snookie
16th January 2013, 21:38
"What I believe would happen in such a scenario, is that most of the military would refuse to follow that order anyways and actually turn on the government."

Funny, that's not what happened on Crystal Night when Hitler's goons smashed windows & caused destruction, or when he sent all those people to work camps, never mind gas chambers, or when Stalin ordered all those Ukrainians murdered. How about Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao ZeDong? How did they kill all those people, they certainly didn't do it single handedly.

I recently watched a YT video about the British demonstrating, and being interviewed. They were warning the Americans not to let the government take their guns like happened there. They said crime and break ins were way worse than before they turned in their weapons. One guy was sent to prison because he had shot & injured 2 intruders. This had been the 3rd time this had happened to him in months. He ended up in jail and is still there while the guy who did it is free, and is charging him for injuring him! What would you do if you knew your son was in danger?

ceetee9
16th January 2013, 22:19
Youniverse, I too hope that one day we, as a species, will evolve to higher plateau where there will be no need for weapons to protect ones self and family, but that is going to take changing a planetary-wide mindset. This is something that can never be achieved by government mandates and the curtailment of peoples rights and freedom. History has proven this time and time again.

In the meantime, the fact remains that if you disarm the public at large the public will be less safe; not more safe. This is because those who will still have weapons will be the governments and, by definition (if guns are illegal), the criminals--some would consider them one and the same. And given that we haven't reached that higher plateau yet and that it is people who comprise governments and criminal elements, how can you possibly believe you and your family will be safer if you are unarmed? Even if it were possible to eliminate all guns--which it isn't, they will always be attainable on the black market--never mind myriad other ways to kill people.

If a person with a gun broke into your home and was determined to kill you and your family--heaven forbid, what do you think the odds are that that person would be able to do so knowing that you are unarmed and that, even if the police were somehow notified, it would take at least several minutes before they arrived on the scene? Sorry, but my bet would be that the police would arrive in time to fill out another mass murder report.

I'll share with you a personal tragedy to help make my point. As you are no doubt aware, drugs have been illegal in this country for decades, but that didn't stop my 16 year old son from getting some heroin and accidentally killing himself. The coroner said it was a combination of the heroin and cold medications that we had all been taking to fight off colds, but in his case it turned out to be pneumonia. The laws didn't protect my son.

And no doubt the government is far better armed than any citizen could be, but whether one believes there are any "big conspiracies" with world governments or not, I'm confident that the majority of people would prefer a weapon to a flower if and when they come for them.

Snookie
16th January 2013, 23:29
I used to be a big gun control proponent until I realized that the vast majority of shootings occurred with an illegal gun (unregistered). I have to wonder if Harper did away with the long gun registry in Canada because he was told at one of the recent Bilderberg meetings he attended that we would be combining both Canada and the US and probably Mexico as well into one BIG registry?

Youniverse, you make a lot of great points, but until the controllers are prepared to hand over ALL their weapons, not just the guns I don't think it makes sense for anyone else to.

I find it hypocritical in the extreme that BO sheds tears, real or not on American children but can joke " I have one word for you - predictor drones" when it applies to children of another nation/skin color.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:01
The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living..


How about:

The insanity of violent crime needs to stop.

That's a much better way of saying it, you are being highly disrespectful to the various knife stabbings, blunt object brutalities, vehicular assaults and "hand to hand" violence that occurs as well as needlessly narrowing an actual problem to pointless specifics.



Do you consider an "evolved" human stupid and untrustworthy ?

This is basically what you are saying. I consider everyone a responsible adult and any attempts to change this will cause problems (as we have now) the more "restrictions" the more "limits" placed on an INDIVIDUAL the more issues you will have.

we do NOT need gun control, gun control does nothing helpful, nothing shows that it does and with the HIGH proliferation of fire arms in the US the chances of any real action being taken to curtail them is slim to none.

Well your first objection there is a fallacy, since my focus on gun crimes here does nothing to say I don't care deeply about those other kinds of violence you mentioned. I've heard a lot of intelligent comments from you on other issues and I'm frankly surprised on your missing the fact I just explained. I'm not sure why you're asking me if an evolved being is stupid or untrustworthy. Would not evolved imply the opposite? At any rate keep the guns firing away if that's what gets you off my friend. Maybe we should devolve things a little more, like back to the old west perhaps?

=[Post Update]=


There must be laxatives for the mind now or, the Matrix is doing a wonderful job of getting its sufferers to cover for it. Just like Morpheus tells Neo.

HUH??? If you're trying to patronize me don't bother.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:13
Yes, we're evolving, but into what?

Seems to me if we allow it, we'll just evolve into another species of domesticated creatures.

Evolution doesn't happen by government control. It is a natural process...no need for help from Big Bro!

Where did I say I was in favour of government control??? The point is that if enough people learned to be responsible with the power they have we wouldn't need government at all. Unfortunately we're not there yet.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:17
"What I believe would happen in such a scenario, is that most of the military would refuse to follow that order anyways and actually turn on the government."

Funny, that's not what happened on Crystal Night when Hitler's goons smashed windows & caused destruction, or when he sent all those people to work camps, never mind gas chambers, or when Stalin ordered all those Ukrainians murdered. How about Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao ZeDong? How did they kill all those people, they certainly didn't do it single handedly.

I recently watched a YT video about the British demonstrating, and being interviewed. They were warning the Americans not to let the government take their guns like happened there. They said crime and break ins were way worse than before they turned in their weapons. One guy was sent to prison because he had shot & injured 2 intruders. This had been the 3rd time this had happened to him in months. He ended up in jail and is still there while the guy who did it is free, and is charging him for injuring him! What would you do if you knew your son was in danger?

I'd do what I had to do to protect him. That doesn't mean I'd need a semi-automatic rifle to save him.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:21
"What I believe would happen in such a scenario, is that most of the military would refuse to follow that order anyways and actually turn on the government."

Funny, that's not what happened on Crystal Night when Hitler's goons smashed windows & caused destruction, or when he sent all those people to work camps, never mind gas chambers, or when Stalin ordered all those Ukrainians murdered. How about Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao ZeDong? How did they kill all those people, they certainly didn't do it single handedly.

I recently watched a YT video about the British demonstrating, and being interviewed. They were warning the Americans not to let the government take their guns like happened there. They said crime and break ins were way worse than before they turned in their weapons. One guy was sent to prison because he had shot & injured 2 intruders. This had been the 3rd time this had happened to him in months. He ended up in jail and is still there while the guy who did it is free, and is charging him for injuring him! What would you do if you knew your son was in danger?

Yes I've studied my share of world history so it's not as if I am oblivious to what you're saying about Hitler, Stalin, and others. I was only stating what I believe would most likely happen in this particular scenario concerning the U.S. Of course I could be wrong. So could you.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:31
Youniverse, I too hope that one day we, as a species, will evolve to higher plateau where there will be no need for weapons to protect ones self and family, but that is going to take changing a planetary-wide mindset. This is something that can never be achieved by government mandates and the curtailment of peoples rights and freedom. History has proven this time and time again.

In the meantime, the fact remains that if you disarm the public at large the public will be less safe; not more safe. This is because those who will still have weapons will be the governments and, by definition (if guns are illegal), the criminals--some would consider them one and the same. And given that we haven't reached that higher plateau yet and that it is people who comprise governments and criminal elements, how can you possibly believe you and your family will be safer if you are unarmed? Even if it were possible to eliminate all guns--which it isn't, they will always be attainable on the black market--never mind myriad other ways to kill people.

If a person with a gun broke into your home and was determined to kill you and your family--heaven forbid, what do you think the odds are that that person would be able to do so knowing that you are unarmed and that, even if the police were somehow notified, it would take at least several minutes before they arrived on the scene? Sorry, but my bet would be that the police would arrive in time to fill out another mass murder report.

I'll share with you a personal tragedy to help make my point. As you are no doubt aware, drugs have been illegal in this country for decades, but that didn't stop my 16 year old son from getting some heroin and accidentally killing himself. The coroner said it was a combination of the heroin and cold medications that we had all been taking to fight off colds, but in his case it turned out to be pneumonia. The laws didn't protect my son.

And no doubt the government is far better armed than any citizen could be, but whether one believes there are any "big conspiracies" with world governments or not, I'm confident that the majority of people would prefer a weapon to a flower if and when they come for them.

I thank you for your comments and I'm sincerely sorry for what happened to your son. I never said all guns should be taken away immediately. What I meant by my thread was that I support efforts (whether it be gov't or private enterprises or whomever) to reduce the amount of mass shootings and gun crimes by any reasonable measures. Of course we can't just take verybody's guns away immediately. That's not how evolution works if I'm not mistaken. I recognize that we have to be patient as evolution away from a more fearful and violent existence will be a gradual process. I think the new laws Obama's putting forth are just a small part of the solution. Just a first step. To be frank, for me, they are more of a sign of American society's progress than anything.

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 03:45
I used to be a big gun control proponent until I realized that the vast majority of shootings occurred with an illegal gun (unregistered). I have to wonder if Harper did away with the long gun registry in Canada because he was told at one of the recent Bilderberg meetings he attended that we would be combining both Canada and the US and probably Mexico as well into one BIG registry?

Youniverse, you make a lot of great points, but until the controllers are prepared to hand over ALL their weapons, not just the guns I don't think it makes sense for anyone else to.

I find it hypocritical in the extreme that BO sheds tears, real or not on American children but can joke " I have one word for you - predictor drones" when it applies to children of another nation/skin color.

Of course Obama should care equally for all children, regardless of nationality. I don't know that he does or doesn't. Whoever said being the president was easy? Maybe he feels sick about the amount of innocents that are killed or injured. I don't know.

I grew up in a hunting/fishing type family. So I've owned and used guns for hunting purposes only. Fortunately I live in a place where I feel safe enough to not feel any pressure to keep a gun in my house. Many do not share my experience and I feel deeply for those people. I wouldn't even consider myself a "gun control advocate." I just hate violence in any form, and want the best for everyone. Whether any of you believe me or not, I do love you all, and that's my only motivation here. I'm a dreamer but I'm a realist as well. My intent here was never to offend anyone, only to provide another way of looking at this issue.

DeDukshyn
17th January 2013, 03:48
The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living..


How about:

The insanity of violent crime needs to stop.

That's a much better way of saying it, you are being highly disrespectful to the various knife stabbings, blunt object brutalities, vehicular assaults and "hand to hand" violence that occurs as well as needlessly narrowing an actual problem to pointless specifics.



Do you consider an "evolved" human stupid and untrustworthy ?

This is basically what you are saying. I consider everyone a responsible adult and any attempts to change this will cause problems (as we have now) the more "restrictions" the more "limits" placed on an INDIVIDUAL the more issues you will have.

we do NOT need gun control, gun control does nothing helpful, nothing shows that it does and with the HIGH proliferation of fire arms in the US the chances of any real action being taken to curtail them is slim to none.

I posted some stats here: Serious assault: Scotland 1487 vs Canada 170

Violent crimes and guns per capita or gun control unfortunately have little to do with each other. I used Scotland as comparison vs Canada and Scotland has 7 times the rate of assault resulting in serious injury and Canada has minimum 6 times the guns per capita.

I am also reminded of the money grab of our long gun registry. How many lives did that save? About zero. And look how much it cost us taxpayers.

Unfortunately gun control is a method of turning a blind eye to the real problem. It is like applying a bigger band-aid so the real problem can continue to fester and grow. If we fix the REAL problem, gun issues will begin fix themselves. Unfortunately, this time around this isn't quite the case in many people's minds.

My 2 cents ;)

Youniverse
17th January 2013, 04:05
The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living..


How about:

The insanity of violent crime needs to stop.

That's a much better way of saying it, you are being highly disrespectful to the various knife stabbings, blunt object brutalities, vehicular assaults and "hand to hand" violence that occurs as well as needlessly narrowing an actual problem to pointless specifics.



Do you consider an "evolved" human stupid and untrustworthy ?

This is basically what you are saying. I consider everyone a responsible adult and any attempts to change this will cause problems (as we have now) the more "restrictions" the more "limits" placed on an INDIVIDUAL the more issues you will have.

we do NOT need gun control, gun control does nothing helpful, nothing shows that it does and with the HIGH proliferation of fire arms in the US the chances of any real action being taken to curtail them is slim to none.

I posted some stats here: Serious assault: Scotland 1487 vs Canada 170

Violent crimes and guns per capita or gun control unfortunately have little to do with each other. I used Scotland as comparison vs Canada and Scotland has 7 times the rate of assault resulting in serious injury and Canada has minimum 6 times the guns per capita.

I am also reminded of the money grab of our long gun registry. How many lives did that save? About zero. And look how much it cost us taxpayers.

Unfortunately gun control is a method of turning a blind eye to the real problem. It is like applying a bigger band-aid so the real problem can continue to fester and grow. If we fix the REAL problem, gun issues will begin fix themselves. Unfortunately, this time around this isn't quite the case in many people's minds.

My 2 cents ;)

I agree with most of what you're saying, though I've heard mixed results from various sources on the effect of reducing guns to prevent violent crime. If you got a chance to read all my post, you would've noticed I was attempting to get to the source of the issue using the bigger picture. I totally agree that the problem won't go away just by taking a bunch of guns away. My over-arching point was that cultural change will solve the violent crime problem, sooner or later.

DeDukshyn
17th January 2013, 04:13
The insanity of gun crime has to stop, that is, if humanity is interested in evolving on to higher and grander ways of living..


How about:

The insanity of violent crime needs to stop.

That's a much better way of saying it, you are being highly disrespectful to the various knife stabbings, blunt object brutalities, vehicular assaults and "hand to hand" violence that occurs as well as needlessly narrowing an actual problem to pointless specifics.



Do you consider an "evolved" human stupid and untrustworthy ?

This is basically what you are saying. I consider everyone a responsible adult and any attempts to change this will cause problems (as we have now) the more "restrictions" the more "limits" placed on an INDIVIDUAL the more issues you will have.

we do NOT need gun control, gun control does nothing helpful, nothing shows that it does and with the HIGH proliferation of fire arms in the US the chances of any real action being taken to curtail them is slim to none.

I posted some stats here: Serious assault: Scotland 1487 vs Canada 170

Violent crimes and guns per capita or gun control unfortunately have little to do with each other. I used Scotland as comparison vs Canada and Scotland has 7 times the rate of assault resulting in serious injury and Canada has minimum 6 times the guns per capita.

I am also reminded of the money grab of our long gun registry. How many lives did that save? About zero. And look how much it cost us taxpayers.

Unfortunately gun control is a method of turning a blind eye to the real problem. It is like applying a bigger band-aid so the real problem can continue to fester and grow. If we fix the REAL problem, gun issues will begin fix themselves. Unfortunately, this time around this isn't quite the case in many people's minds.

My 2 cents ;)

I agree with most of what you're saying, though I've heard mixed results from various sources on the effect of reducing guns to prevent violent crime. If you got a chance to read all my post, you would've noticed I was attempting to get to the source of the issue using the bigger picture. I totally agree that the problem won't go away just by taking a bunch of guns away. My over-arching point was that cultural change will solve the violent crime problem, sooner or later.

Yes, I think it is a self solving issue if the right problems are addressed. And I am leery of having it forced ... that's all.