How To Know a Shill and a Troll

[Arrowwind]

http://consciouslifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/shill_bidder1-242x160.jpg
http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/
I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate
By Ex-Shill, Above Top Secret

I am writing here to come out of the closet as a paid shill. For a little over six months, I was paid to spread disinformation and argue political points on the Internet. This site, ATS, was NOT one that I was assigned to post on, although other people in the same organization were paid to be here, and I assume they still walk among you. But more on this later. If a poster wrote something close to “X,” we were supposed to respond with something close to “Y.” “You have to mix it up a bit, though,” said my trainer. “Otherwise it gets too obvious. Learn to use a thesaurus.” This section also contained a number of hints for de-railing conversations that went too far away from what we were attempting. These strategies included various forms of personal attacks, complaining to the forum moderators, smearing the characters of our opponents, using images and icons effectively, and even dragging the tone of the conversation down with sexual innuendo, links to pornography, or other such things. “Sometimes we have to fight dirty,” or trainer told us. “Our opponents don’t hesitate to, so we can’t either.”

The second binder was smaller, and it contained information specific to the web sites I would be assigned to. The sites I would work were: Godlike Productions, Lunatic Outpost, CNN news, Yahoo News, and a handful of smaller sites that rotated depending on need. As stated, I was NOT assigned to work ATS (although others in my group were), which is part of the reason I am posting this here, rather than elsewhere. I wanted to post this on Godlike Productions at first, but they have banned me from even viewing that site for some reason (perhaps they are onto me?). But if somebody connected with this site can get the message to them, I think they should know about it, because that was the site I spent a good 70% of my time working on.

The site-specific info in the second binder included a brief history each site, including recent flame-wars, as well as info on what to avoid on each site so as not to get banned. It also had quite detailed info on the moderators and the most popular regged posters on each site: location (if known), personality type, topics of interest, background sketch, and even some notes on how to “push the psychological buttons” of different posters. Although I didn’t work for ATS, I did see they had a lot of info on your so-called “WATS” posters here (the ones with gold borders around their edges). “Focus on the popular posters,” my trainer told me. “These are the influential ones. Each of these is worth 50 to 100 of the lesser known names.”

Each popular poster was classified as “hostile,” “friendly,” or “indifferent” to my goal. We were supposed to cultivate friendship with the friendly posters as well as the mods (basically, by brownnosing and sucking up), and there were even notes on strategies for dealing with specific hostile posters. The info was pretty detailed, but not perfect in every case. “If you can convert one of the hostile posters from the enemy side to our side, you get a nice bonus. But this doesn’t happen too often, sadly. So mostly you’ll be attacking them and trying to smear them.” Read link above.

My task? “To support Israel and counter anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic posters.” Fine with me. I had no opinions one way or another about Israel, and who likes anti-Semites and Nazis? Not me, anyway. But I didn’t know too much about the topic. “That’s OK,” she said. “You’ll pick it up as you go along. For the most part, at first, you will be doing what we call “meme-patrol.” This is pretty easy. Later if you show promise, we’ll train you for more complex arguments, where more in-depth knowledge is necessary.”


At first, like I said, my job was “meme-patrol.” This was pretty simple and repetitive; it involved countering memes and introducing new memes, and didn’t demand much in-depth knowledge of the subject. Mostly just repetitive posting based on the dialogue pairs in the “Strat” section of the first binder. A lot of my job was de-railing and spamming threads that didn’t go our way, or making accusations of racism and anti-Semitism. Sometimes I had to simply lie and claim a poster said something or did something “in another thread” they really hadn’t said or done I felt bad about this…but in the end I felt worse about the possibility of losing the first job I’d been able to get since losing my “real” job.
<B>

The “complex debate” part of the job involved a fair amount of additional training, including memorizing more specific information about the specific posters (friendly and hostile) I’d be sparring with. Here, too, there were scripts and suggested lines of argument, but we were given more freedom. There were a lot of details to this more advanced stage of the job – everything from how to select the right avatar to how to use “demotivationals” (humorous images with black borders that one finds floating around the web). Even the proper use of images of cats was discussed. Sometimes we used faked or photo-shopped images or doctored news reports (something else that botheredme).
</B>


http://www.picassodreams.com/picasso_dreams/2011/04/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum.html (http://www.picassodreams.com/picasso_dreams/2011/04/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum.html)

COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of an internet forum:

There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'

If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'

A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at http://www.abovetopsecret.com) (http://www.abovetopsecret.com)/) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION' I wonder if this technique was in play on the recently closed thread regarding if you feel safe to post on Avelon. If it was not intentional, what came out there from various membersstill could be used againt them by forum members if so inclined.

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes.

CONCLUSION

Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM.
Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.

I cant say if this story by an ex shill is true or not but it is something to think about

[Lettherebelight]

Thanks Arrowind, for putting this out there again. It's important information for all of us to be aware of.

Can't let it slide down the forum board too quickly.

We can all do our part to keep the shills present here Non-Effective

:bump:

[Anchor]

Now, let's see where did I put that video of someone cooking a kitten? That should rile a few people up.

Hi shills :)

[PurpleLama]

I think shills would show an inordinate preference to the color purple.

[blufire]

Do I believe there are shills on PA, yes I do. Do I have suspicions or a gut feeling on who these may be, yes I do . . . . . and I believe there are a couple who have been here for a good couple of years now.

Do I believe I am savvy enough in the ‘forum world’ to come out and accuse or blatantly name these individuals . . . . absolutely not. I rely completely on the mods to manage this little pest control. I also follow the lead of a handful of members, in that while I may not understand or fully agree with their ‘thing’ I respect them enough as honorable people that I can trust where they may lead a thread.

Falsely accusing someone, whether intentional or not, bears a heavy responsibility and it has heavy repercussions both on the accuser and the accused.

We both have experienced this recently haven’t we Arrowwind?

[ulli]

In light of the fact that the Here and Now thread had quite a few cat images recently,
and you Arrowwind, highlighting that cat comment above in red, I have to confess that I feel that you are pointing the finger at our little group.
I have had periodic attacks from people who might not understand what is going on on our thread, and therefore suspect us of being shills.



Edit here: since posting the above Arrowwind has explained that the comment about cat posts which were originally in red text were not highlighted by her, so my worries are unfounded. thank you for that clarification, Arrowwind. Shyt happens, and sometimes not because anyone in particular intends it to.

Sowing the seeds of paranoia is part of the hidden government's tactics to maintain control not only of the masses but even amongst members of their own ranks.
When one is on the consciousness-raising path one strives purposely to move above fear. In order to do that one must first address one's own fears, and observe, in the here and now, how they dissolve when fully faced.


In the alternative community one finds quite a spectrum of people,
some who can face the hard realities and want to warn others of imminent earth changes, and also of the more brutal aspects of a fascist or socialist NWO takeover, while others want nothing to do with that and will be quick to silence anyone who talks about negative things.

I personally see myself surrounded by both types and have no issues with either.
But I would have major issues with paid shills.
Like Blufire said above, I believe they exist,
and that they are here on this forum.
Would I know for sure who is? Nope.

When someone attacks me or comes to my thread and starts trolling there, I do become suspicious. But still then I give them the benefit of the doubt, even if they attack me in person in my PM box.
I would love it if the mods did the clean-up, rather than the rest of us. They have more info on the members. But perhaps no one can know it all.
One of those things. For now I have decided to not worry too much about it, but let courageous people like Bill be my role model.

What matters to me is to know that I am neither a paid shill, nor do I see my role as trolling anyone else's forum, or thread.
My conscience is clean. And to me my conscience is my God.

[ulli]

I think shills would show an inordinate preference to the color purple.

And I do NOT think that people who switch loyalties like they would switch underwear are shills. We are all exploring murky waters here. Including the shills themselves, whose only concern is a paycheck.
My loyalties have been with the alternative agenda since my hippie days in the sixties.
After my brief spells in the corporate world I saw some merit in corporations too, especially during the Cold War when the other option was totalitarian government with all production under government control.
It's about balance, however, and I see imbalance.
Too many poor people have been left behind with globalization efforts, and too many have died in those awful war efforts.
The world needs system change, and urgently.

We will never know each others real motives, nor loyalties....
We can only sharpen our feelies, and find some angle with which to understand ourselves. Some are overly paranoid, and need to give more benefit of the doubt, while others ought to see that there is value in healthy caution, and even practice a little paranoia once in a while, if at least on behalf of their loved ones.

[Calz]

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/Innocent_Cat.jpg

[Mad Hatter]

Lets not forget the impact a good psy-op can have or even for that matter the average fundamentalist...

[ulli]

Lets not forget the impact a good psy-op can have or even for that matter the average fundamentalist...

I think this is a good point to consider as well.
I often wondered about how would I go about protecting myself from psy-ops.
When thoughts lead to actions that get us in trouble it's best to start observing all of one's thoughts.
If one can observe one's thoughts, then one can decide
if they are acceptable in the greater context of one's life,
and eliminate accordingly. No one can be sure where our thoughts originate. They spring upon us.
Sometimes it is planetary.

Striving to have no thoughts at all means possibly giving up
one's freedom and sovereignty to unknown invisible forces which then might stir our actions.
I would be very weary of gurus and self-appointed "masters".

This is why I urge people to ask themselves what they want out of life,
what they believe in, in whom they trust, and why they trust, etc.
It's good to get to know oneself and define oneself and find one's personal agenda.

[Aurvandil]

OK, this makes me sick and angry. :mad2:

I am that naive I didn´t believe these operations actually existed but since I also am a member of ATS I have seen these methods in work there. No matter which thread I read they started serious just to after a post or two turn into some kind of vendetta towards the OP. Very aggressive and very uncomfortable. I do not go to ATS anymore beacuse of this, even tried to delete my account and found out there is absolutely NO possibility to do so. Also a lot of criticism of the moderators, perhaps rightfully so.

Anyway, it seems forums like PA and others are "supervised". But WHY? Seems a bit pathetic. Are these persons also following up on the members in other ways, reporting them to their superiors? Well, one thing for sure, I will definitely limit my postings from now on and use this a lot more:

:focus:

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Shills Shills Shills

Can you pay my shills
can you pay my internet bills
can you buy me automobiles
then maybe we can chill
I don't think you do
so you and me are through

[kaon]

That's a very interesting read. The article in itself can create some "paranoia" and suspicion. I am sure that it happens, but it's effectiveness is questionable. A small forum can be somewhat controlled providing there are a high number of shills versus non shills. I do question whether or not a large forum such as Avalon can be effectively influenced.

Frankly, I have not noticed anyone that I would consider a real shill or a plant here, (in my short time). If they are here then so be it. I think most of the forum members here are too intelligent to be swayed to any large degree.
This is all part of the internet. Good and evil exists everywhere. I have been on other forums where shilling is evident, but that can easily be battled with facts and common sense.

[kaon]

OK, this makes me sick and angry. :mad2:

I am that naive I didn´t believe these operations actually existed but since I also am a member of ATS I have seen these methods in work there. No matter which thread I read they started serious just to after a post or two turn into some kind of vendetta towards the OP. Very aggressive and very uncomfortable. I do not go to ATS anymore beacuse of this, even tried to delete my account and found out there is absolutely NO possibility to do so. Also a lot of criticism of the moderators, perhaps rightfully so.

Anyway, it seems forums like PA and others are "supervised". But WHY? Seems a bit pathetic. Are these persons also following up on the members in other ways, reporting them to their superiors? Well, one thing for sure, I will definitely limit my postings from now on and use this a lot more:

:focus:

Limiting your posting could be an objective of a good shill, but I think we should distinguish the difference between a shill and a poster/s attacking an OP or individual. It could be a personality issue as opposed to shilling. Two different animals. One that wants to shut up an individual versus one who wants to shut down a subject.

[Arrowwind]

Falsely accusing someone, whether intentional or not, bears a heavy responsibility and it has heavy repercussions both on the accuser and the accused.

We both have experienced this recently haven’t we Arrowwind?

Yep. And some people have the guts to stand up and defend their positions. Others don't

[RunningDeer]

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION' I wonder if this technique was in play on the recently closed thread regarding if you feel safe to post on Avelon. If it was not intentional, what came out there from various membersstill could be used againt them by forum members if so inclined.

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Hello Arrowwind,

I’ll respond to this one point above because that first post in the thread you mentioned was mine. Mine alone. My concern only. There were other subtle and not so subtle implications on the thread as well. It was an eye opener for me into how diverse our perceptions can be.

This is the post I’ve prepared below when it opens. My hope is that it clears up any hurt feelings or misperceptions. Too, it is a positive suggestion when asked, "What are the solutions?"

What is the Solution? WE are the solution.

I taught middle school kids for 27 years. We lived a code of respect and encouragement for All. Some learned from the inside out, while others from the outside in. It was a successful model not only based on test scores, and requests for kids and younger sibling be placed in the class, but my students request for their kids, too.

Loosely quoted from my initial post: “I see the forum as a place to exchange thoughts, knowledge and build relationships. It’s a place where each brings in their strengths and grow beyond perceived weakness. It’s critical that it’s a safe place.”

If every member is not able to share their thoughts and ideas, we all miss out. Some are sensitive, deep thinkers that require a kind of space to openly share. Their ideas have a chance to evolve and sharpen for and along with us. I want to hear from them. They may be a springboard for what’s inside. I’ll hear something and I’m off running in fresh directions. (The “I” here is me and the collective.)

I’ll end where I began: The forum is a reflection of it’s Members and Administration. My wish is for Project Avalon to continue to stand out as a model for other forums to follow.



From the greater perspective: forums=communities=nations=world=...

What is the solution? WE are the solution.

Peace & Love,
Paula

UPDATE: Deleted a paragraph and images so that the greater message is gleaned.

[Arrowwind]

In light of the fact that the Here and Now thread had quite a few cat images recently,
and you Arrowwind, highlighting that cat comment above in red, I have to confess that I feel that you are pointing the finger at our little group.
I have had periodic attacks from people who might not understand what is going on on our thread, and therefore suspect us of being shills.

.

Actually I copied this #1 post as I found it. I have not even opened the hear and now thread, except once a month or two ago and maybe made one or two post, and have no idea what it is really about as it did't capture my interest, so references to cats and red lettering was not intended to be pointing fingers at anyone.

[ulli]

[QUOTE=ulli;623325]In light of the fact that the Here and Now thread had quite a few cat images recently,
and you Arrowwind, highlighting that cat comment above in red, I have to confess that I feel that you are pointing the finger at our little group.
I have had periodic attacks from people who might not understand what is going on on our thread, and therefore suspect us of being shills.

.

Phew, (wiping sweat from brow) WHAT a relief!!
Thanks for clarification.
I love genuine misunderstandings, as they can be sorted out quite quickly, between mature adults.
The H and N thread has never had as many cat pictures and videos posted as in the last 24 hours,
so for a moment it really looked like that red ink in the OP was directed at us.

Anyway, if you are ever in need of comic relief, that's what we are there for.
Some whistleblowers testimony can be rather disconcerting and destabilizing,
which a bit of silly humor can easily remedy....helping one to get back those inner strengths
and carry on with the real battles.

[blufire]

Falsely accusing someone, whether intentional or not, bears a heavy responsibility and it has heavy repercussions both on the accuser and the accused.

We both have experienced this recently haven’t we Arrowwind?

Yep. And some people have the guts to stand up and defend their positions. Others don't



Arrowind, I refuse to defend a ‘position’ that has been put upon me or that I have been very wrongly accused. How do I or why even should I remotely defend this position that you naively and aggressively put me in? You say (several times now) that I am a shill and mouthpiece of the elite. Okay then, I feel if you believe this is who I am then you must first defend YOUR position.

I will not defend a position that is a lie from another individual.

You responded to posts I have made that are coming from a recent ‘personal truth’. Your attacks on me and my current personal truths have then made me reconsider continuing to share with the forum. Ironically you attacked me again (covertly) on Paula’s thread about ‘feeling safe posting personal truths’ on this forum.

And to accuse ME that I don’t have ‘guts’ . . . . well then I am rotflmao :pound:

And finally, this is my last comment and response to this absurdity . . . . if you truly feel I am a shill or troll or even a sholl then take it to the mods. Until then please respect me as I continue to respect you.

[Arrowwind]

Falsely accusing someone, whether intentional or not, bears a heavy responsibility and it has heavy repercussions both on the accuser and the accused.

We both have experienced this recently haven’t we Arrowwind?

Yep. And some people have the guts to stand up and defend their positions. Others don't



Arrowind, I refuse to defend a ‘position’ that has been put upon me or that I have been very wrongly accused. How do I or why even should I remotely defend this position that you naively and aggressively put me in? You say (several times now) that I am a shill and mouthpiece of the elite. Okay then, I feel if you believe this is who I am then you must first defend YOUR position.

I will not defend a position that is a lie from another individual.

You responded to posts I have made that are coming from a recent ‘personal truth’. Your attacks on me and my current personal truths have then made me reconsider continuing to share with the forum. Ironically you attacked me again (covertly) on Paula’s thread about ‘feeling safe posting personal truths’ on this forum.

And to accuse ME that I don’t have ‘guts’ . . . . well then I am rotflmao :pound:

And finally, this is my last comment and response to this absurdity . . . . if you truly feel I am a shill or troll or even a sholl then take it to the mods. Until then please respect me as I continue to respect you.


Im not going to take this any further with you. All I will say is that I posed several questions to you regarding what seemed to me a radical stance on an issue and you refused to answer them. I did not call you a shill. I asked you if you were one. You could have responded with the justifications for your stance but you did not. Im done with this for its not going to get us anywhere and I am not going to apologize.

[Aurvandil]

Limiting your posting could be an objective of a good shill, but I think we should distinguish the difference between a shill and a poster/s attacking an OP or individual. It could be a personality issue as opposed to shilling. Two different animals. One that wants to shut up an individual versus one who wants to shut down a subject.

Yes, I suppose you are right. I am just too scared and cowardly to risk being "supervised" that I instead go silent but I guess that is what these persons want...

[Arrowwind]

OK, this makes me sick and angry. :mad2:
Anyway, it seems forums like PA and others are "supervised". But WHY? Seems a bit pathetic. Are these persons also following up on the members in other ways, reporting them to their superiors? Well, one thing for sure, I will definitely limit my postings from now on and use this a lot more:

:focus:

Well, I dont think its a major problem here but there are some problems. A lot of threads get derailed due to cutsy comments, irrelevent whatever. The word Im using lately for it is to confound a topic ... I think the back to topic sign is a good one.

[Dennis Leahy]

Please, Arrowwind, please re-read my comments in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54583-Division-Accomplished-Sandy-Hook-Unspun&p=619843&viewfull=1#post619843) Blufire is not a shill. You (Arrowwind) and I disagree with Blufire over one aspect of her overall perspective and actions. That's all it is, just a disagreement, and disagreements between good people must not lead to divisiveness. We sabotage our own efforts to unite if we focus on differences. At this point, we haven't even heard Blufire explain her position on why she said what she did about multinational corporations like Monsanto possibly being benevolent (paraphrasing), and even though I suspect I will still disagree, I will still know that bluefire is not a shill and is on the same side as we are. Besides, she's logical and reasonable, and if we are to explore the subject and possibly influence her thinking on that one topic, we have no chance if we are seen as hostile.

I love you both. Two very powerful and passionate people. Arrowwind, Please drop the sword. Blufire, it would be good if you expound on your viewpoint and give us a chance to appreciate or at least comprehend your perspective. You must admit, for those who have dedicated themselves to overthrowing corporatocracy and gaining personal and national sovereignty, your viewpoint on that issue is (or appears to be) cause for either alarm or dismissal. I'll start a thread: "Are Some Multinational Corporations Benevolent?" and you can clarify your position in that thread (if you want to.) Maybe another thread could be started about whether humanity is ready for some sort of a unity of humanity, or whether that golden carrot will only lead us into the NWO trap where they control all of humanity.

Everything we do needs to lead to our unity (as community, as a nation, and as humankind.) Or, we scatter ourselves to the four winds, making ourselves completely ineffective to resist the malevolent and self-serving control of the Global Elite.

Dennis

[ulli]

It's saddening and upsetting to see two shining forum lights like Arrowwind and Blufire not see eye to eye.
You both are such great contributors here and I would never suspect either one of you to play a shill role.

I don't know which post of Blufire's gave the impression that she is pro elite,
but I do know that some here have suspected me of such.

The thing is that at all levels there are white hats and black hats.
Each person has self preservation instinct battling against altruistic tendencies,
right inside of them. So some of the elite's vision isn't all that bad. What is bad is their methods.
Which I'm sure only a small minority are orchestrating...like the Cheney Rumsfeld lot and their cronies.

It really is so hard to judge, and unless one sits in a court room where the job is
to put all dangerous individuals behind bars so as to protect the rest of the community from them,
open judgement ought to be avoided at all cost.

I have an idea who would like to see me gone from the forum, and I stay away from them.
But these two great posters right here really ought to sort things out...
whatever it is that is bugging them about the other.

[eaglespirit]

You All Better Watch Out...
I'm gonna get You ALL in 'one big room' together...
to solve the world's problems in ooohhhhh, 3 days!!!

[sdv]

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION' I wonder if this technique was in play on the recently closed thread regarding if you feel safe to post on Avelon. If it was not intentional, what came out there from various membersstill could be used againt them by forum members if so inclined.

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Hello Arrowwind,

I’ll respond to this one point above because that first post in the thread you mentioned was mine. Mine alone. My concern only. There were other subtle and not so subtle implications on the thread as well. It was an eye opener for me into how diverse our perceptions can be.

This is the post I’ve prepared below when it opens. My hope is that it clears up any hurt feelings or misperceptions. Too, it is a positive suggestion when asked, "What are the solutions?"


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/hierarchy.jpg


What is the Solution? WE are the solution.

I taught middle school kids for 27 years. We lived a code of respect and encouragement for All. Some learned from the inside out, while others from the outside in. It was a successful model not only based on test scores, and requests for kids and younger sibling be placed in the class, but my students request for their kids, too.

We flourish when the hierarchy of needs are intact. Increased exchange occurs when physiological, safety, belonging, esteem and self-actualization needs are actively encouraged by All.

Loosely quoted from my initial post: “I see the forum as a place to exchange thoughts, knowledge and build relationships. It’s a place where each brings in their strengths and grow beyond perceived weakness. It’s critical that it’s a safe place.”

If every member is not able to share their thoughts and ideas, we all miss out. Some are sensitive, deep thinkers that require a kind of space to openly share. Their ideas have a chance to evolve and sharpen for and along with us. I want to hear from them. They may be a springboard for what’s inside. I’ll hear something and I’m off running in fresh directions. (The “I” here is me and the collective.)

I’ll end where I began: The forum is a reflection of it’s Members and Administration. My wish is for Project Avalon to continue to stand out as a model for other forums to follow.



From the greater perspective: forums=communities=nations=world=...

What is the solution? WE are the solution.

Peace & Love,
Paula



http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Hierarchyofneeds.jpg


I have always had a problem with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Perhaps we need to invert the pyramid? Perhaps if we put most of humanity on the bottom three rungs of the pyramid we will always have most of humanity manipulating and destroying and spreading suffering to actualise personal needs?

If we can achieve self-actualisation first, just as we are, in the moment and in the world, just as they are, then we can peacefully and abundantly achieve love, belonging, safety and the meeting of all our needs?

[blufire]

Falsely accusing someone, whether intentional or not, bears a heavy responsibility and it has heavy repercussions both on the accuser and the accused.

We both have experienced this recently haven’t we Arrowwind?

Yep. And some people have the guts to stand up and defend their positions. Others don't



Arrowind, I refuse to defend a ‘position’ that has been put upon me or that I have been very wrongly accused. How do I or why even should I remotely defend this position that you naively and aggressively put me in? You say (several times now) that I am a shill and mouthpiece of the elite. Okay then, I feel if you believe this is who I am then you must first defend YOUR position.

I will not defend a position that is a lie from another individual.

You responded to posts I have made that are coming from a recent ‘personal truth’. Your attacks on me and my current personal truths have then made me reconsider continuing to share with the forum. Ironically you attacked me again (covertly) on Paula’s thread about ‘feeling safe posting personal truths’ on this forum.

And to accuse ME that I don’t have ‘guts’ . . . . well then I am rotflmao :pound:

And finally, this is my last comment and response to this absurdity . . . . if you truly feel I am a shill or troll or even a sholl then take it to the mods. Until then please respect me as I continue to respect you.


Im not going to take this any further with you. All I will say is that I posed several questions to you regarding what seemed to me a radical stance on an issue and you refused to answer them. I did not call you a shill. I asked you if you were one. You could have responded with the justifications for your stance but you did not. Im done with this for its not going to get us anywhere and I am not going to apologize.

Just a couple examples Arrowind. You did not ask me questions, you threw accusations. I am not asking for an apology because one is not needed. But I do ask you to examine why you would take such a hard line aggressive approach. You made it personal.

Those who maybe wondering why I don’t take this to PM . . . . because things like this should be put in the open for all to digest and decide . . . not to take sides . . . just a leveling and understanding of events. Also, this thread by arrowwind is about shills of which she directly accused me of possibly being. Also, she posted this thread about shills after being called on the carpet for attacking me. So this is a really good example of a forum member (me) being accused and then ironically asked to defend a position or belief that is the accusers. We should be very careful and be very clear before accusing.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54685-How-safe-do-you-feel-posting-your-truth-on-the-Avalon-Forum&p=622866#post622866


Gee. and I thought it was about me after the reprimand that I received the other day for calling someone to the table...but who's feelings got hurt because I asked them if they were a shill of some sort. Instead of having guts and responding they went whinning.

this thread may be turning into a flush.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54583-Division-Accomplished-Sandy-Hook-Unspun&p=619848#post619848


Still believing that ruthlessness and murderous and evil acts justifies the ends... the means justifies the ends? and you expect goodness to result out of this?

Really, are you a Illuminati shill? a member of Bohemian Grove? Workhship Modoc?

or if you can please idenitfy the guys in the white hats that are gonna run this NWO?

You've been reading too much Alice Bailey or maybe you think Jesus is going to be our world president


Well. Im not the only one who sees it this way with some of your posts. You repeatedly refuse to clarify who will be in charge of the NWO that you propose. If they arn't bad guys who are they? Sorry if what I said hurt you but I will not sit silently and listen to such ... such... drivel. If it is not drivel you are the one in the position to prove it so, not me.

[noprophet]

I suspect the idea of schills is far more effective than an actual schill.

// oh and if anyone ever thinks I'm a schill, probably in regards to my support for the mystery school teachings, go ahead and call me out on it. Not only won't I be offended but I'm always happy to explain myself.

[Arrowwind]

[Yes, I suppose you are right. I am just too scared and cowardly to risk being "supervised" that I instead go silent but I guess that is what these persons want...

I suggest that most people are used to being supervised in some way or another. As a nurse Ive endured many years of "supervision"
You develop coping mechinisms for it, and you become more astute in how you communicate and how to let things roll off your back. Im not saying Im perfect but I manage without losing too much self integrity or getting to reactionary. You have to hold your center and know that some stuff just isnt worth haggeling over and other stuff, where to draw your line.
I will say this, I've walked out of jobs due to improper supervison and followed other supervisors from one workplace to another for their superior work. Ive caused people below me on the food chain to loose their job when I believed them to be dangerous and others to rise above me by promoting them. We all wield a sword of power if you dare to use it and in nursing it must be used for quality or care and lives are at stake. Your intent is everything and when intent is right Ive seen even grevious true errors get swept under the rug so that good people can continue on.

[RunningDeer]

If we can achieve self-actualisation first, just as we are, in the moment and in the world, just as they are, then we can peacefully and abundantly achieve love, belonging, safety and the meeting of all our needs?

Yes, I agree 100%, which was the main reason for why I left teaching.

UPDATE: Deleted a paragraph and images so that the greater message is gleaned.

[ulli]

[Yes, I suppose you are right. I am just too scared and cowardly to risk being "supervised" that I instead go silent but I guess that is what these persons want...

I suggest that most people are used to being supervised in some way or another. As a nurse Ive endured many years of "supervision"
You develop coping mechinisms for it, and you become more astute in how you communicate and how to let things roll off your back. Im not saying Im perfect but I manage without losing too much self integrity or getting to reactionary. You have to hold your center and know that some stuff just isnt worth haggeling over and other stuff, where to draw your line.
I will say this, I've walked out of jobs due to improper supervison and followed other supervisors from one workplace to another for their superior work. Ive caused people below me on the food chain to loose their job when I believed them to be dangerous and others to rise above me by promoting them. We all wield a sword of power if you dare to use it and in nursing it must be used for quality or care and lives are at stake. Your intent is everything and when intent is right Ive seen even grevious true errors get swept under the rug so that good people can continue on.

If I had to walk in your shoes I would be a nervous wreck.
Haven't worked in a job environment in years, always had my own business,
and since my 33rd birthday just worked from home.
So I'm not used to people's interactions, especially when it comes to having to make fast decisions.

When one lives alone, one becomes more sensitive to the energies of others.
Others may perceive one as weak for not being able to interact verbally in challenging circumstances.
Especially when studying kids with Aspergers syndrome this becomes obvious....
they especially lack this inability to stick around when things get rough.
Yet their sensitivity helps them develop new perceptions
which could be for the benefit of all.

Being a drop-out loner with lots of time to think about stuff produces valuable insights and fresh ideas which may not be popular, but go deeper than what others who still lead busy lives would have entertained.
And just because one's psyche isn't quite up to scratch and one gets hurt when having one's integrity questioned, does not mean one should be dismissed.
These tests are for people from both ends of the spectrum.

Only in our willingness to stay united can we really learn from each other
and share and absorb some of each others strengths in those areas where we were formerly lacking.

[blufire]

Please, Arrowwind, please re-read my comments in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54583-Division-Accomplished-Sandy-Hook-Unspun&p=619843&viewfull=1#post619843) Blufire is not a shill. You (Arrowwind) and I disagree with Blufire over one aspect of her overall perspective and actions. That's all it is, just a disagreement, and disagreements between good people must not lead to divisiveness. We sabotage our own efforts to unite if we focus on differences. At this point, we haven't even heard Blufire explain her position on why she said what she did about multinational corporations like Monsanto possibly being benevolent (paraphrasing), and even though I suspect I will still disagree, I will still know that bluefire is not a shill and is on the same side as we are. Besides, she's logical and reasonable, and if we are to explore the subject and possibly influence her thinking on that one topic, we have no chance if we are seen as hostile.

I love you both. Two very powerful and passionate people. Arrowwind, Please drop the sword. Blufire, it would be good if you expound on your viewpoint and give us a chance to appreciate or at least comprehend your perspective. You must admit, for those who have dedicated themselves to overthrowing corporatocracy and gaining personal and national sovereignty, your viewpoint on that issue is (or appears to be) cause for either alarm or dismissal. I'll start a thread: "Are Some Multinational Corporations Benevolent?" and you can clarify your position in that thread (if you want to.) Maybe another thread could be started about whether humanity is ready for some sort of a unity of humanity, or whether that golden carrot will only lead us into the NWO trap where they control all of humanity.

Everything we do needs to lead to our unity (as community, as a nation, and as humankind.) Or, we scatter ourselves to the four winds, making ourselves completely ineffective to resist the malevolent and self-serving control of the Global Elite.

Dennis

Dennis, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your are sort of a knight in shining armor for me and I cannot tell you what your support means.

I have wanted for several months to start a thread (or several) about my seemingly ‘dark side’ conversion. But, like Arrowwind’s (and others) attack on my few ‘test’ posts I made completely deflated any hope that I could succinctly explain my new found and remembered ‘personal truths’.

I do not have much time to spend on PA and I don’t want to have to spend it on only trying to defend myself. I posted on Paula’s ‘safety in posting personal beliefs’ that I do not feel safe posting my personal truths exactly because of accusations like Arrowinds. It’s exhausting and discouraging.

I would very much entertain the idea of starting a thread with you about my recent changes in belief and understandings. It would be helpful if I knew there was someone I could trust to be a buffer. What I believe (currently) is radically different than what the alternative world supports. Ironically what the alternative world supports NOW I believed about 20 years ago and was ridiculed and now I find myself in the exact same place. What I believe now is truth will more than likely be the accepted truth 20 years from now. And please please please I do not mean this arrogantly . . . . this is from a place of memories that have been buried since I was a young girl. 30 years of life experience and deep research, moving back to the mountains where certain ‘events’ occurred and Bill’s thread “the Ultimate Hypothesis’ jarred awake many things. It has been a hard jar that left me depressed and sick for many weeks.

I have a problem explaining myself well . . . what is in my head and heart I have never been good at voicing . . . it comes out jumbled and diluted. I am not a writer or philosopher . . . I grow turnips and milk goats and try to figure out how to get 170,000 tons of waste coal off my towns land that will become a historical wildlife refuge.

If you were there with me and encouraging and directing and collaborating. I would consider tackling this endeavor with you.

A side note . . . it is not my belief that multinational corporations like Monsanto are benevolent so we would need to think of a different thread title. ;)

[Arrowwind]

[I have always had a problem with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Perhaps we need to invert the pyramid? Perhaps if we put most of humanity on the bottom three rungs of the pyramid we will always have most of humanity manipulating and destroying and spreading suffering to actualise personal needs?

If we can achieve self-actualisation first, just as we are, in the moment and in the world, just as they are, then we can peacefully and abundantly achieve love, belonging, safety and the meeting of all our needs?

Yes, I agree 100%, which was the main reason for me leaving teaching...[/QUOTE]

I've really never had a problem of with Maslow. In heath care you see it play out all the time. You must nourish and protect the body first so it can think and respond. Although infants respond to love they dont get very far if you dont take care of the physical needs. We are not born Budda although sometimes it looks that way and we like to fantasize about that but take the food and shelter away and you end up with a tortured soul pretty quick terribly wrapped up in trying to alleviate their situation. Ive yet to see a self actualized person who didnt struggle for what they had attained and often they will tell you how they got where they got. Achieving self actualization first I dont think is possilbe except for a few who have brought it with them from a past incarnation. Actually children and all folks are working on all levels simultaneously as soon as they have developed the physical, emotional and intellectual power to make an impact on their world... which can be at a quite young age.

seems the bottom rungs of the pyramid result from the gifts you are given,, in the middle, the love rung, thats where you start your giveaway to life.

[RunningDeer]

[I have always had a problem with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Perhaps we need to invert the pyramid? Perhaps if we put most of humanity on the bottom three rungs of the pyramid we will always have most of humanity manipulating and destroying and spreading suffering to actualise personal needs?

If we can achieve self-actualisation first, just as we are, in the moment and in the world, just as they are, then we can peacefully and abundantly achieve love, belonging, safety and the meeting of all our needs?

Yes, I agree 100%, which was the main reason for me leaving teaching...


I've really never had a problem of with Maslow. In heath care you see it play out all the time. You must nourish and protect the body first so it can think and respond. Although infants respond to love they dont get very far if you dont take care of the physical needs. We are not born Budda although sometimes it looks that way and we like to fantasize about that but take the food and shelter away and you end up with a tortured soul pretty quick terribly wrapped up in trying to alleviate their situation. Ive yet to see a self actualized person who didnt struggle for what they had attained and often they will tell you how they got where they got. Achieving self actualization first I dont think is possilbe except for a few who have brought it with them from a past incarnation. Actually children and all folks are working on all levels simultaneously as soon as they have developed the physical, emotional and intellectual power to make an impact on their world... which can be at a quite young age.

seems the bottom rungs of the pyramid result from the gifts you are given,, in the middle, the love rung, thats where you start your giveaway to life.


I have always had a problem with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Perhaps we need to invert the pyramid? Perhaps if we put most of humanity on the bottom three rungs of the pyramid we will always have most of humanity manipulating and destroying and spreading suffering to actualise personal needs?

If we can achieve self-actualisation first, just as we are, in the moment and in the world, just as they are, then we can peacefully and abundantly achieve love, belonging, safety and the meeting of all our needs?


Yes, I agree 100%, which was the main reason for me leaving teaching...

Good points, Arrowwind. FYI: the above is misquoted. It's sdv, opinion. :wave:

[Arrowwind]

But these two great posters right here really ought to sort things out...
whatever it is that is bugging them about the other.

I said Im done with it and I am now considering this corrupting this thread with vengences from the past that cannot be rectified.

[Arrowwind]

I love you both. Two very powerful and passionate people. Arrowwind, Please drop the sword.

Dennis, I dropped the sword on this long ago. I will say again that I asked her if she was a shill. I did not call her a shill. She is the one that keeps swinging and now has corrupted this thread. I dont even care to hear her explaination of what she previously said anymore. I can only tolerate so much beating aound the bush. Im moving on. I wish everyone would. I am really done with this now. I will not respond to anymore posts regarding this on this thread or on any other.

[Dennis Leahy]

But these two great posters right here really ought to sort things out...
whatever it is that is bugging them about the other.

I said Im done with it and I am now considering this corrupting this thread with vengences from the past that cannot be rectified.With you, as a healer, I call upon your healing spirit to recognize that this too can be healed. It would be incredibly wise of you to want to heal it, and compassionate of you to heal it. Remember the story of the three blind men who encountered an elephant in the jungle, and ran back to the village declaring their understanding of "elephant", each having touched only a small part of the overall elephant. It is that way with all of us - we all only know the part of the elephant we have encountered - so far - and our collective view of "elephant" will only be complete when all aspects have been presented.

Peace. And unity.

Dennis

{edit} Due to slow typing, and thinking, I did not see your previous post before I posted mine. Sorry if I'm derailing this thread. I'll leave it at what I've offered, and let the thread take or resume its course.

[sirdipswitch]

Now now girls, yer startin ta sound like a "cat" fight.

Totally unbecomming to the objectives of this forum...

And does nothing for the propagation, of Unconditional Love.

:wizard:

¤=[Post Update]=¤

OOps, that was for posts 19-20. cccc

[sirdipswitch]

Gotcha beat Dennis, I'm slower than you. ccc.

[PurpleLama]

I profoundly disagree with the comments blue made, that precipitated arrow calling her a shill. Do I think blue is a shill?

That would be shilly of me.

[Anchor]

Dennis, I dropped the sword on this long ago.

No you didn't, and IMO you probably should. At this point, no matter what your motives, they are starting to look very much in the vein of the sorts of thing a shill would do. Shills are the ones that keep bringing something up - a recently discovered button - even when and if, annoyingly for them, others do not rise to the bait in the desired manner.

See how it works? Its all up there in your opening post.

"I'm not going to accuse you of being a Shill. I might ask you if you are one - IN PUBLIC"

Do you really think that lets you, or anyone so questioning, off the hook?

How's this for a new technique. I don't need to ask anyone if they are a shill - not even you.

It doesn't even matter if you or anyone else is a shill or not.

If everyone posts with respect and kindness, completely avoiding any ad-hominem attacks, the forum would be immune to the worst a shill could offer.

[ceetee9]

... I rely completely on the mods to manage this little pest control. If what was stated by the "paid shill" is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, I wouldn't put too much faith in the foxes guarding the chicken coop for keeping the chickens safe. ;) (No disrespect intended mods.)

And Thank You Arrowwind for a most informative post.

[Wade Frazier]

Yeah, I found out the hard way that ATS is a troll haven:

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/critics.htm#troll1

That is why I am at Avalon! :)

Best,

Wade

[Dennis Leahy]

We know, because it has been made public, that the State of Israel pays people to propagandize and defend Israel, we know the US government does the same (probably x 10), the COINTELPRO program and offshoots infiltrate, subvert, divide, and destroy organizations opposed to the war industry or other heinous aspects of US policy, and the US government has made deliberate propaganda legal (to avoid any future prosecution.)

Here is a reference citing Monsanto employing people to soften the image of the "world's most evil corporation."


Monsanto Trolls! The most hated company in the world has a team dedicated to combating Social Media Opposition!

"Taking note of these developments, a few key individuals within the company, according to Young and Veihman, began advocating for the necessity to monitor and engage with what was occurring online, including ways that people and various groups―and again, especially the activists― were networking and building relationships to drive information. And, as noted above, although the company has long had a Web site presence, up until about this same time it tended to be relegated to secondary status in terms of overall media and information dissemination strategies. With this new emphasis in place a dedicated staff member was tasked with responsibility for social media, and the public affairs team was doubled in size in 2008 in order to establish a full-fledged social media team."Source: Monsanto discovers new social media (http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=wilhelm_peekhaus)
( http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=wilhelm_peekhaus )

So, these are not unsubstantiated rumors or paranoia, but official "shills" or "trolls" operating under some Orwellian title such as "public relations associate."

Dennis