The limits of compassion

[Chester]

I had an interesting morning. I am 55 and my mother is 75. She had e-mailed me yesterday because she had received an offer via e-mail from someone seeking to buy an oil and gas property they claimed she owned of which she was not aware.

She asked me to help her. I replied I would and recommended a way I could help her. She then called me around noon, my time, today.

In the course of the conversation, she asked me questions and would respond. As this process unfolded, she would then criticize me as to how I replied. This occurred at least six or seven times when I finally reached the limit. I told my Mom that she is the one who asked my help and yet she continuously becomes irritated with the information I provided her and the apparently how I deliver the information. Now I work with all sorts of folks all the time and I do not descend into these types of communication problems, much less have them several times in just a few minutes. The thought then crossed my mind to look at this situation on a deeper level and I did. And I realized that this dynamic had been a pattern between my mother and I ever since I could remember.

And then came the big thought – “And, Chester, you have never had the guts to tell her the obvious,” and that is - it doesn’t matter she happens to be my mother nor that she is 75 (as her mind is still quite crisp) – the bottom line is simple. There is no excuse for treating another with a complete lack of decency and respect

And I finally told her. As calmly but directly as I could.

I then told her goodbye and hung up the phone.

The massive wave of emotion was incredible. And the reason I am writing this post is to share how I realized, through this experience, how I held onto this clearly sick relationship my entire life. And how, through the work I have done over the last several months, I was able to finally stand up for what is right, for myself, and for the hopes that maybe one day, if she gets a clue and makes the necessary adjustments, we could end up with a decent relationship before her spirit passes on... something I hope for her she is able to do.

Because I understand how I have become a rare individual on this earth today. Sure I still have my own issues and sure I still hold onto some baggage, but nothing like so much of the folks in my family and those who I encountered and befriended while growing up.

And I did the work to achieve this level. And I am well aware I have further to go... hopefully a long, long journey as I now embrace life. I am no longer in fear of a single thing. I also don’t look for problems anymore... the best advice I have ever received from my wife, Cristina.

Anyways, the point of all this is what I believe I might have gained (and I am not saying I have learned this... I am sharing how I demonstrated I have learned this). I was able to finally tell my Mom what I needed to. None of this BS – “But she’s your mother.” Or, “but she is getting up there and what good would it do, etc.” I needed to do this and if she gets a clue before she moves on, she may be glad herself.

Compassion, my arse... sometimes you have to draw a line. This is what life is about. There are no extremes. Sometimes you have to draw up the courage to do the tough job.

It feels like I just cut loose the heaviest ball and chain. It feels like I just threw off the biggest, smelliest old albatross. It just feels like I drew a line with the most hideous demon I have ever known.

Look out world, cause I ain’t done yet.

EDIT: - I just read over the post and I can sense how some folk's egos could get curfuffled by my claim of having achieved a higher state of being relative to the vast majority of society but I don't care if your ego arises over my proclamation. Only an ego that has (and likely needs) more work on itself would have an issue with that statement. So why am I making it? Because if you knew my life and how sick I was up until essentially one year ago and how I have essentially recreated myself almost exclusively through my involvement with the folks here on Avalon, then anyone can. This is a testament to Avalon and all the folks here (even the ones who may hate my guts!)

[christian]

Thanks for sharing!

Creating a seeming comfort for someone by subserviently adjusting to someone's false sense of entitlement is not compassionate. When you realize that someone wants to be in an unsound kind of relationship with you, then do you best to avoid this, draw clear lines. Compassion comes into play, when you consider how you draw those lines.

Be gentle, be free, let it shine, for the highest and best good of all, the rest follows naturally in due course, whatever time frame that may be.

[Chester]

Thanks Christian... Chester

[scanner]

Well done for being YOU .

[Freed Fox]

Although it would require a deeper understanding of your dynamic with your mother and the nature of your interactions with her to truly judge this situation, I tend to agree with the way you're looking at it. It sounds to me that the truth has freed you from something that has long clung on.

I think from a karmic perspective, what you did may have actually been the most compassionate thing to do. This could have been a resolution or revelation on that level too, perhaps for you both.

I'm glad that you're experiencing this level of personal liberation. Thanks for sharing.

[johnf]

Compassion, my arse... sometimes you have to draw a line. This is what life is about. There are no extremes. Sometimes you have to draw up the courage to do the tough job.


Maybe you could try a quick review of your actions and ask how was this not compassion?
When I allow others to continually make the same mistakes with me, I am left with self hatred. Perhaps witholding that communication that that is an inappropriate way to treat another is actually hatred.
If your communication to your mother was not compassionate perhaps you can try again soon.
I just get the feeling that you were appropriately compassionate.

[mahalall]

Compassion, my arse... sometimes you have to draw a line. "justoneman2

thanks for sharing

if it helps, used to have a similar problem talking to doctors until i learnt to tell them from their frame of reference

[Chester]

Compassion, my arse... sometimes you have to draw a line. This is what life is about. There are no extremes. Sometimes you have to draw up the courage to do the tough job.


Maybe you could try a quick review of your actions and ask how was this not compassion?
When I allow others to continually make the same mistakes with me, I am left with self hatred. Perhaps witholding that communication that that is an inappropriate way to treat another is actually hatred.
If your communication to your mother was not compassionate perhaps you can try again soon.
I just get the feeling that you were appropriately compassionate.

You are right from a higher perspective - I was coming from that lower level that some folks take (well... it seems lower to me) that we should be always and ever tolerant of all others as long as they are not "physically" abusing another.

I realized I had somehow allowed my mother to abuse me this way ever since I can remember but had buried it deep down as a.) I deserved it and b.) she's my mother and she must know best.

But I have had almost zero interaction with my Mom in the last year or so and so when this situation came about, because I am pretty much a new (and much more "whole" person) I saw how she was abusive, I let it ride for at least 5 or six instances and then, when it just continued, I drew the line and told her rather firmly and directly that just because I was her son, did not mean i had to accept being treated so disrespectfully.

Now I understand that I am only doing what is known as "giving my side of the story," but if anyone heard the conversation, I have no doubt nine out of ten people that did would have been patting me on the back. And not just because I confronted her... but I did so affirmatively but without the normal screaming and hollering I may have done in my younger days.

Thus the biggest point I was making was how I was able to control my emotions unlike I have ever experienced before and that I correlate this maturation to my experience here on Avalon. I know this may sound like some sort of advertisement or some may think I am trying to suck up to the owners and mods, but that is not the case at all.

I am thinking about how, after 54 years of living in hell I found a way out and it was done via my immersion into Avalon. Remember in my early days I was actually falling for Drake! So I have clearly come a long way... that was the main point I was hoping to share.

If I can change, and do so utilizing a forum such as this... anyone can. So all it takes (IMO) is willingness to get seriously honest with yourself and open up and be willing to take the heat. I have done this and I still make mistakes like I did with the clown thing but the difference is I can quickly respond in the best way. Just saying thanks to Avalon (and that means, of course, the membership).

[Kryztian]

Hi Chester:

It sounds like we have similar mothers. My 82 year old mother, for the last 30 years, been nothing by demanding, manipulative, abusive, feeling entitled to endless amounts of my energy and never truly grateful for any of the sacrifices I have made for her. After countless hours of contemplation, therapy sessions, long conversation with friends in similar situations, and hours alone dealing with my anger, hurt and disappointment, I can't say that anything is ever finally resolved and doubt that it will ever be, even long after her funeral (if she doesn't cause mine first, LOL).

Never the less, I feel that these trials have forced me to grow intellectually and spiritually and they will continue to as I struggle with continuing disappointment that the mother who is supposed to nurture, support and love her child, is in fact, only going to regard me as inadequate servant, and as a scapegoat to project her anger and disappointment upon . I've come to the realization, that there isn't very much you can do to change anyone in their 70s or 80s, it is only ourselves that can change, and even that is a much more difficult task than it sounds. One can't really ever give up hope that one will receive an apology, or some recognition, or some sincere expression of love or gratitude for what one has done. Perhaps, there are a few brief moments when I've had this, but it has never seemed enough, and it probably never will.

And it is socially unacceptable to have strong negative feeling about one's mother. I frequently joke that there is nothing more unattractive than a middle age man who lament "Oi, my mother, she's so mean to me." Alas, one has to bear one's disappoint, one's wounds in silence.

I try to tell myself that it is I who am the parent now, and she the child. The child who can not understand that it is impossible to have all their needs met and who will just be unreasonably angry, as children often are, to the parent who has given so much of their life over to them. But children grow up, develop and understanding, and might eventually one day appreciate all that the parent has sacrificed. But some aging mothers, just grow older, more senile, more demanding and more bitter.

You might find an aunt or a neighbor who is around the same age, whom you can help in a similar way, who your can share your struggles and triumphs with, and who will appreciate you in a motherly way, and yet, it is still not the same as getting that feeling from the woman who raised you or gave birth to you.

Many people have satisfying relationships with their parents, and then feel tremendous loss when the pass on. For others, like us, it's as if we have already lost them, except we still have hope that the better more loving parent might return, and they just may, but then it might just be for a moment.

I can only say that disappointment has been the greatest teacher of my life and probably will be as my mother continues to walk the earth, or at least roll around in a wheel chair.

Good luck with your situation, and I hope you will at least take comfort in knowing that it will cause you to grow as a person.

Chris

[jagman]

Chester, Shame on you, thats your mother. lol I hope you have resolved your issues with your mother but when I have a spat with mine she politely tells me to shut the hell up and then were good again.

[Mulder]

It's tough to know the "correct" response 100% of the time. We just have to do whatever we can. I had extreme problems with my mother and our relationship never healed. The best way to describe our differences is: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." - I hope in the next world things will get better.

[AutumnW]

I confronted a close family member earlier this year. We went to a counseling session together and seeing as I let him choose the counselor, I think he figured things would go his way--that I would be put in my place, or back in my place. Needless to say, that's not what happened. She was very diplomatic, but I got the distinct impression she was having a WTF? reaction to family member.

It's really tough dealing with narcissism. You develop ways of dealing with it, especially when you are younger that make YOU look like the guilty party. Screaming, yelling and going ballistic is perfectly understandable when you're dealing with a person or people who are extremely self centered. If they lack empathy, you can't approach them using emotional logic...so you go nuts. I so get, Justoneman.

Then you have the added feature of having formed a familial bond with someone who has a bit of a personality disorder. You have to let them go, with love, if you can manage it--or indifference. But it's cutting the bond that takes so much courage. When we cut bonds like that, we initially lose a bit of the self that is part of that bond. Age helps. As we mature, people become more transparent. Habits are seen for what they are. It's easier to just let go....it's almost as if we don't have the energy to keep it up.

[Fred Steeves]

Hi Chester, I take your word for it face value how difficult this relationship has been. Many of us have had those types, and sometimes there simply is no resolution, right to the grave. So it goes my friend...

I invite you to consider one thing though plese, and feel free to ponder on it for the rest of your days. At some point after you have seen your mom laid to rest, you will realize there is a piece of your original Self which is now back in your front pocket because of her, whether she consciously realized she was providing it to you or not.

What piece will that be?

[Chester]

Thanks for all the great responses - I want to sleep on all this and then hopefully handle it the best for her - I am ok either way... what got to me the most is when I spoke with my sister who is not emotionally strong like me. When she opened up to me about how our Mom has effected her, i could read between the lines its far deeper than maybe even she realizes and I know my sister and she is a damn good hearted person and I think that's what bugs me the most.

The funny thing is, I see the core problem for my Mom - she is an atheist and as she is approaching the end of her life, you can just feel the fear which then transforms to anger/regret. She also lives alone and has ever since her third marriage blew up 20 years ago. She has "friends" but they all seem more interested in that she might leave them something.

And speaking of that, she has several times brought up inheritance stuff with me and I told her flat out, "I am allergic to "things," Mom and you know that because you have seen me blow through everything i ever made, was given inherited, etc... leave it all to my sister, Please." And yet she doesn't believe me that I mean that - Jeeeeez! I live out of 4 suitcases! And am Happy! And she just doesn't believe it.

Oh well... Fred's comment has me all twisted up trying to figure out that piece! hahaha cause right now, I don't want any of her pieces that are also part of my Original Self anywhere near my pockets. But that is because I am blinded by resentment.

So a good night of sleep and I am sure I will awaken and the first thing I will think of is exactly what that piece (perhaps those pieces) happens to be.

[Carmen]

Good on ya Justoneman! 'Bout time!

[gripreaper]

First, some background to add perspective. My mother, who just turned 87 and is still on the planet, is similar to yours and Krystian's. She came from Germany back in the 40's to America, a product of catholicism, the egoistic superiority the German's carry, and angry about the war. I was born into a recently immigrated family, where my mother conceived me in anger to keep my father from straying when he saw all of the beautiful women in California. She set me in a crib, did not touch me or nurture me, only to occasionally, with contempt, stuff a bottle in my mouth. This would create a massive "let down" in me, as it was not the hunger of food I longed for, but the nurture. When I was almost three years old and two more siblings had come along, my father hired a nanny because my mother was just not doing the job with seven children. She popped out two more after that and then my dad died. This nanny who came along when I was almost three, was the first soul to sit me down in a high chair and actually feed me. She potty trained me and taught me to walk. When my dad died, my mom sent me off to boarding school where I was abandoned, abused, and on my own at 8 years of age.

The core visceral imprints we have in the first few years of life, cast shadows throughout our entire lives, and are the most difficult to mitigate. I've spent countless years in therapy, and thousands upon thousands of dollars. I've done and tried almost every alternative spiritual modality known to man, to alleviate and balance the energy in my system.

But, what really helped me, was to own the FACT that, on a soul level, I chose these parents and this family to incarnate into. The question then becomes, why in the hell would I do that? The short answer is: so that I had no attachments to the outside for love, so that I could develop a sound grounded foundation to the earth, generate my own life force in my sacrum, and operate under my own power in my solar plexus, passing all my energy through the great transducer of the heart, and opening up to my own higher voice and my own higher vision, as I connect to the source. In other words, to build a foundation of love internally, to know what a fully self directed loving being truly is.

This is my path, not anyone else. This is one incarnation in a long line of many, only one piece of the puzzle or the big picture. This is "me" vibrating certain frequencies within my own energy field, to bring additional wholeness to my etheric body double, to enter into the ananda brahma of all creation and get to know eternal bliss in the fulness of all consciousness in a body.

It also helped for me to forgive my mother and thank her for her part in the co-creation of the collective soul agreement we both shared. In that way, I was able to release her for being the stubborn, arrogant, self centered, cold and sterile person she agreed to be in her lifetime. She is nearing the end of her days, and it is still hard for me to be in the same room with her for more than a half hour. I guess I am about to experience what others here have gone through, probably in the next few years.

Till then, I'll hold my final comments.

[Beren]

Grips`s post here as well as other here are a telling story of us. Our desires before we were born and such.
From this angle we cannot seem to grasp of why`s or when`s but when there or in full conscience state all seems perfect.

It seem that the core of the reasons is to live the other feeling that we may have missed in previous experiences on Earth or elsewhere.
All about being Love in all ways, tough it seems but much needed.

[Hazel]

Thank you for the telling:

So much bravery in these lived experiences about the evolution of self-transformation..
Goes to prove we hold alchemic power within us no matter the depths of pain and adversity..

Hats off to the human heart!

[Malerogro]

Thanks for sharing justoneman and congratulations with this personal victory! Indeed, reading other's personal eperiences is a great opportunity to learn. I also feel like it might well be that you actually did do the compassionate thing! Both for yourself and your mother..

Many people have satisfying relationships with their parents, and then feel tremendous loss when the pass on. For others, like us, it's as if we have already lost them, except we still have hope that the better more loving parent might return, and they just may, but then it might just be for a moment.
This realization in relation to my own parents freaked me out for so long. This was because I was too close to them and entangled in their problems so much that I was suffocating without realizing it. Still I kept trying to help them but from that position that was impossible and only had the opposite effect. I moved to a different city (and even country) when I turned 18 to put some literal and emotional distance between us and since then things slowly got better. My father and I are better at loving each other from a distance. He is not doing well at the moment and is drinking a lot. It is getting more and more difficult to reach him and I have stopped trying. Still, I know he loves me undonditionally at some level, he just lets so many things get in the way of expressing it. Their are times I hated him for this inability and for not fullfilling my childish needs. But I finally let him go (and said goodbye to a great extend already) and let him love me from a distance as I do love him. For me that feels like the compassionate thing to do, also for myself.
I wonder justeoneman whether your thoughts and feelings about your mother have changed in any way since you drew the line? :)

[AutumnW]

The funny thing is, I see the core problem for my Mom - she is an atheist and as she is approaching the end of her life, you can just feel the fear which then transforms to anger/regret. She also lives alone and has ever since her third marriage blew up 20 years ago. She has "friends" but they all seem more interested in that she might leave them something.


Atheism is a harsh belief system as a person ages. My mother always said she was 'too practical' to believe or seriously consider life after death. I tried to blast through her resistance, but realized she considered it a question of 'belief' and that to her had religious connotations and she couldn't get past that. It was deeply ingrained. She managed to be happy cheerful and optimistic in spite of it. Go figure. I would be miserable.

Justoneman, Does your mother drink? Is she taking sedatives, painkillers, something that might be making her view of the world even darker? People seek refuge in alcohol but, in the end, it makes things worse.

Good luck with your new life. You've released a tremendous burden. I hope you don't look back a few months from now and feel guilty. Sensitive souls who absorb too much guilt and responsibility in negative human interaction are red meat for predatory or insensitive types, be they family, workmates, spouses, friends.

[Chester]

Mind Blowing responses... all of you... I could single out dozens of thoughts.

Apologies in advance for the monster post... hopefully readers will indulge me here.

I know some do not feel comfortable I post personal information (names and such) but I am far more interested in the truth and generally am just as honest about myself (the good, the bad and the ugly) as I tend to be when writing about others.

In addition, the chances my mother or anyone she might know ever reads a post of mine (much less knows about Avalon) is practically zero.

Because I feel the exploration I am doing here can be helpful to not only myself, but others, I need to post the following. But first, I need to answer one important question from AutumnW –


Justoneman, Does your mother drink? Is she taking sedatives, painkillers, something that might be making her view of the world even darker?

My mother has, for a good 30 years or so, been taking “prescription/legalized” dope in the form of Prozac as well as all sorts of other “medications.” Because of the work I have done on myself and the massive research I have done for the last dozen years, I have various viewpoints few outside of Avalon allow themselves to entertain. It is my opinion that my mother, through all sorts of means, but specifically by taking these “medications” for dozens of years has her energetic field completely compromised. As an odds maker by trade, I make the odds that she (who is age 75 now) ever “gets a clue” and “sees the light” is practically a zero percent chance of occurring.

So “my head” tells me the compassionate thing to do is accept her as she is as she will likely never change.

But something eats at me inside because of my additional views. Before I share those, I need to share what happened after I “drew the line” in that phone call two days ago, Saturday morning.

I received an e-mail back from my mother – where she stated she was not going to apologize. On one hand, one might say it is “my ego” that requires this apology but there’s more to it. This has become a significant “familial” event and I do not mean the physical family line alone – this goes much deeper.

My reaction to Saturday’s 5 minute phone call has little to do with this specific incident... that she called me because she wanted my help and in less than 5 minutes demonstrated the cruelest form of condescension one could ever imagine enduring.

I realized (finally and mostly due to the progress I have made through Avalon) that this was the central key to almost all of my own issues that have plagued me since I can remember and that it is a family illness that seems to go back as far as any actor in this play has been able to remember, even the ones who are now physically dead.

And so I immediately thought the same exact thoughts shared by Gripreaper above – that I chose this parent at my soul level... best his words –


The question then becomes, why in the hell would I do that? The short answer is: so that I had no attachments to the outside for love, so that I could develop a sound grounded foundation to the earth, generate my own life force in my sacrum, and operate under my own power in my solar plexus, passing all my energy through the great transducer of the heart, and opening up to my own higher voice and my own higher vision, as I connect to the source. In other words, to build a foundation of love internally, to know what a fully self directed loving being truly is.

This is my path, not anyone else.

That, essentially, is exactly what “my higher self” or “my guardian angel” or whatever it is told me when I asked... why in the hell would I do that?”

So in trying my best to discover what pieces of my “deeper self” my mother represents that I might want to stick in my pocket (as suggested by Fred I should examine and with which at least one of my inner voices agrees), I honestly and truly cannot see a single thing of my mom I want to take with me – not one single thing.

In fact, the biggest guilt I have carried my entire life has been that I absolutely and totally loved my father and I never felt any love whatsoever for my mom. In fact, when i read Gripreaper’s post above, I was reading about my mom.

So, after two days of total preoccupation with my situation... one that, in truth, has plagued me my entire life (and clearly has plagued my mother as well because she has told my sister and I over and over how horrid her own mother treated her), I keep getting the strangest and most difficult to accept “plan of action” welling up from my depths. I fear that folks here would not like what I am about to share, but then I think of the crazies out there like Adam Lanza or the fictional character, Norman Bates in Psycho as to what if they had somehow sought a healthy way to “draw the line.”

Anyways, I have written the following “letter” which I am going to sleep on one more night before I decide to send it or... suck it up. I share this with my friends here on Avalon.

Before I do though – I must warn the reader I use her name. It is a common name. Do not draw the conclusion I believe this name is cursed (necessarily) or that others who possess this name are necessarily demonically possessed or evil or sick or... whatever. But in my family and due to some “off the probability charts” synchronicities, I have to involve the name for any of this to make sense. One other note – there is a section of this letter I will not send her if I send the letter at all – I will designate what area this is. I will also insert a few comments for clarity in brackets [ ]. Here goes...

from Merriam-Webster –
condescending - showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others

Hi,

I have a memory that may be wrong. It seems you once told me that you regretted never being able to tell Mimi [her mother] how abusive she was and how much that affected you. So if my memory is reasonably accurate, you took that all important first step in recognizing the venom your mother spewed in your direction practically your entire life.

One might think that becoming aware of something as serious as that may be the key in stopping the transference of a family illness from generation to generation. But my experience suggests to me otherwise.

So I am in a dilemma. Do I “accept you” as you are which sometimes comes forth as tremendously condescending and then “try my best” not to be that way with my own children, loved ones and friends? {tell me you have not experienced me at times being condescending on Avalon?] In being honest, I realize that the act of being condescending is something I have manifested, done so repeatedly and done so with tremendous fervor for years. So how do we stop this lovely family trait? A trait which has clearly (from my perspective) been handed from Mary (Granny) to Mary (Mimi) to Mary (you) and perhaps extends back to the very first antiquated Mary in that lovely branch of my family line?

what I am leaving out begins here...

Interesting that Marli [my sister who was named Mary Louise] is also a Mary and look at Austin. [Austin is my sister’s only child who is a massive drug addict, thief, been in prison multiple times and has had 4 children from different guys and all have been taken away from her].

Interesting to wonder if Granny’s mother was also a “Mary.”

Interesting the lovely Christian “religion” has its Marys all over the place... Jesus’ mother. And Jesus’ “companion.” And speculation he also had a sister named Mary.... the “other Mary” mentioned in the lovely Holy Babble.

Interesting Cristina’s mother [Cristina is my wife who you can see in my Profile Pic by the way] is also a Mary and Cristina won’t have anything to do with her mom for her own emotional self-protection.

And finally, interesting to note how if you take the letters “n” and “d” and correlate the numerical positions of these letters to the English language, you get 14 and 4 which happens to add to 18. And then look up what letter happens to correlate to 18 and you find it is the letter “r.” [My ex-wife's name is "Mandy"]

Mandy.....Ma.. n d.. y
Mary...... Ma.... r.....y

end of what I will leave out if I send this letter.


When I found myself on a beach in Curacao back in August of 2001... one foot in the water and one on land, I asked God for advice. God told me, “Its simple math, Chester... three versus one.” The point was that I had my sons (three) who needed at least one parent to come through for them and I knew that staying with Mandy (just one) would lead to my final self-destruction. So I made what was the hardest decision of my life, and that was to end our marriage. My final and only available act of love was to tell her, “No... No more.”

[Anyone who has read my story on Avalon also knows I was awarded full custody by the Dutch court system in Curacao – what my lawyer told me was one in a million to ever happen in the Dutch system – that a man gets full and sole custody of his children. This was not because I was some saint... it was because my ex had become so totally demon possessed/ill/dangerous, etc.].

It seems now I am faced with a similar dilemma. Do I take the chance I continue to transfer this destructive trait that runs through the matriarchal line of my family tree? Or do I take the indirect advice you gave me through the story of your regret – regret at never being able to confront your mother and possibly end this crap once and for all?

Just writing you about this, in essence, does the trick, no? Anyways, Mom, as difficult as this is to do, I have too many loved ones who are dependent upon my emotional stability. I am no longer going to expose myself to the family disease and transfer it further down my branch of the family line.

Just because you are 75 years old, your mind is still quite crisp and clear enough to understand this. You also have time to look carefully within yourself, if you care to, and perhaps see the light.

I will always love you, but no matter who is who in familial relationships (mother to son in this case), no one should ever have to accept such abuse. There is no excuse for how you treated me on the phone last Saturday and how you have done so throughout most of my life in this regard. None.

There is only one way I would be open to an interactive relationship with you going forward and that will only happen if you come to the understanding you owe me a true, heart-felt apology and then express that to me where I am convinced it actually comes from your heart.

[do not take this to mean I care for the apology itself and this has nothing to do with my ego. I need to hear from her heart she actually and truly sees she manifests this same behavior her mother did to her and as she has told me, her mother’s mother did to her mother, etc and that by a true, heart felt admission, she might then be able to work on the change. I do not expect her to change, I just require that she admits this so that we, together, can work on it such that this stops NOW in our family and the spiritual family we seem to continually reincarnate with]

I hope this is clear.

Chester

So, at this time, I am of the opinion I have to take this action. I know that “giving her a pass” will only translate into my continuing transference of this same character flaw to my children, loved ones and friends.

I prefer this first - If she can make the true, heart felt admission, at least then we can assist each other with eliminating this illness. The cat is out of the bag. No more games as we have identified the culprit and now seek, through an act of humility, honesty and desire to change.

But if she cannot take this step, then I believe it is far wiser to draw the hard line as the letter I have pre-written intends to do.

The third option (to just suck it up) has proven to be the worst choice by the very examples of my mother’s mother and my mother so enough is enough.

It is funny, I never thought being an odds maker would ever benefit my life in a practical way, but in cases such as this, I am required to look at all the possibilities, and then chose from the full data set what selection has the best odds to produce the best results.

In this case, right now, drawing this hard line appears to be the best choice.

[jagman]

Chester, I wont pretend to know what you have gone through or are currently going through with your mother.Regardless of the outcome
your going to have to forgive her trangressions and make your peace. Otherwise this will continue to hurt you and cause you pain.
Chester if you do let go, Your heart will be lifted. Sincerely your friend jason

[Malerogro]

You can only decide whether this is the right thing to do, but I think it is a very brave letter!
I can almost sense you writing it and it reminds me of a letter I sent to my father once. Great to hear that you have no expectations for your mother to change. The most important thing here is you writing and sending the letter, regardless of her response. You can let go the moment you have sent it :)

[Flash]

I truly like your letter Chester. I would only take off the paragraph where you demand an apology (this comes from the ego and the desire to still have a caring mother, wich will not be the case since she never wanted to). I would replace it with "The only way I could want to hear from you is definitely in your camp. You know what to do, since you know what you would have wished from your mother", or something along the same lines.

Let her decide, she is much too much in her ego to answer to a demand for apologies. I think it may make her realise more. This is my opinion of course, she is not my mother but yours, so you know better.

After that, forgive yourself for having given in so often and for having believed her about who you are.

And love your children, you are 100% right on this. This does brake the spell, in parts (your children's mother will have to do her part at some point too).

I do like this process Chester, because I had to go through a similar one - a very different personnality my mother, quite responsible on the material side but absolutely gone on the emotional side, and still the feeling of abandonment and not being loved and respected.

It took about 15 years between the first open and very firm stop I put on my mother, to now, and she is slowly now coming around. She changed. And if it is not solve before she goes, well, the steps done are done. Yet, I did not ask for her to change, I was done with it. That certainly played a role.

I also loved my dad unconditionnally. He was a very good man and he showed his love for his children including me. So I do understand.

Truly

Flash

[AutumnW]

Justoneman,

You might want to do some research on personality disorders. There are so many sites devoted to disseminating information about damaged people who damage others. A word of caution, though. I would avoid participating on a forum devoted to dealing with the damaged as some of the people who create and run the sites are very easily triggered, themselves, for obvious reasons.

Some of them, after years of abuse and putdowns by someone with a personality disorder, create a tiny but perfect zone of control online and...let's just put it this way...you don't want to go there! Everyone who has had to deal with a personality disordered person has to be aware that they themselves can manifest similar tendencies, at times. It looks like you are very aware of a tendency to be condescending, as learned from your mother, and it is one of the reasons you have chosen to sever ties with her. I am so happy to read that you had such a great relationship with your father. That must have helped tremendously.

As far as wanting a sincere apology, I understand this. I would like one from certain persons, too. It is actually a litmus test of a personality disorder. The truly disordered CAN'T offer up a true apology. It's difficult for the best of us to accept that we may have done something truly awful to somebody else. But with narcissism, particularly, not offering sincere closure or apologies is symptomatic.

An apology indicates remorse and a desire to change, set things straight. For me, it isn't a demand of my ego, it's simply an acknowledgement that responsiblity has been taken and wrongs will be addressed in the future.

My situation with sibling is unusual in that I received a half baked acknowledgement that I was hurt, that he played a role in that, but there was never an actual apology. So...it has altered my feelings for him. They are unlikely to deteriorate further, but they won't improve. It's a relationship limbo, and that is okay, because my self image is no longer in the least dependent on his approval.

From Out of the Fog:

Masked Nastiness

Many people with Personality Disorders suffer from low self-esteem and look for ways to feel better. One way some of them try to do that is by putting others down using Belittling, Condescending and Patronizing speech.

This is a form of passive-aggressive attack - a put-down typically veiled in fake friendliness, advice, or words of “wisdom”. The veiled message behind this kind of attack is, “I am better than you”. By masking their purpose in this way, the perpetrator often hopes to deliver the attack while minimizing the risk of retaliation or being held accountable for their behavior.

http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Belittling.html

PS--I have a Mary story, but I have to PM you with it, if you want to read it! It's almost too weird, even for this forum!

[TargeT]

I'm very grateful to be included in a group that can help each other in ways demonstrated in this thread; one of the rare emotional moments for me.

Bravo everyone; there is really positive work being done here that may very well have generational effect.

as for the topic, i really have nothing to add; I must have chosen a vacation life or am as yet unable to face any possible challenges on par with this in my life, seeing how chester is growing/learning/expanding (not even sure what to say here) is very encouraging to me & makes me very happy for humanity & the possibilities that exist for us all.

I've always thought that compassion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion) was one of the more corrupted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40165-Perversion-and-Corruption-of-Namaste-and-other-things-that-have-been-corrupted.....) words in the human language, but I think I see the true intent of the SPELLing here in this thread.

[Chester]

Chester, I wont pretend to know what you have gone through or are currently going through with your mother.Regardless of the outcome
your going to have to forgive her trangressions and make your peace. Otherwise this will continue to hurt you and cause you pain.
Chester if you do let go, Your heart will be lifted. Sincerely your friend jason

Jagman - thanks for the response. I don't judge my mother as good or bad so there is nothing to forgive. I have determined my mother is possessed by the same dark side energies that I have been plagues with and is clearly massively pervasive in my family line.

I see this event as an opportunity that spans multiple levels (in fact, this is how I approach life now - I look at situations from every level I possibly can so that I can derive a holistic view and thus a holistic decision if a decision is required). For me, the ultimate level is what I call, the metaphysical level. And here is the dilemma. Is my desire for a more comprehensive, expanded solution worth what may befall my mother on a more basic and/or limited level - which for her is simply she is "the mother" and thus automatically wiser and thus "right" and that since there is only this one life and that she is "old" she deserves to be given a pass...despite the fact she has recently and more than once expressed her deep regret she didn't tell her own mother off before her own mother passed away which occurred when my mother's mother was in her late 80s.

When I look at the matter through the eyes of energy management as the dark energies attach to "family lines" I see that though I might chose an action which might devastate my mother emotionally, the action may also free my sister, free her daughter, free her grand daughter, free my sons and incidentally free myself. Simple math suggests to me - "do it."

But, then... the most highest "self" (if there is one) within me says this... "don't react as that action would include emotion and that, you know, Chester... feeds the primal monster and no one is served by that.

So the letter I meant to send this morning was not sent. I am still considering how I will handle the situation. I have reread Grip's post more than once - each time I agree I chose these "spirits" to be in my life for whatever reason... perhaps it has been to learn there's no need for any attachment - it is almost anti-vampyric. Almost like a "clear bat" flapping its wings... neither black nor white.

I truly appreciate everyone's input and apologize I likely come across tremendously narcissistic, but being a full blown psychopath as I am (one that has changed and chosen to be in positive, right relationship with all and the All), knowing that I am, admitting to anyone and everyone that I am, I hope, is considered a positive step.

I had hoped I was able to identify a far deeper issue and that is the issue where families pass down "family mental and emotional illnesses." I have still not e-mailed her a response because I am working through all the possibilities as well as intentionally waiting until the massive emotional wave that I experienced has subsided... but this is not relegated to a simple matter between two closely related family members.

[Chester]

@Flash - you know my respect and appreciation (and growing affection) for you. You know me well enough that I know I have your pre-forgiveness in what I am about to write.

This part frustrates me -


I truly like your letter Chester. I would only take off the paragraph where you demand an apology (this comes from the ego...

which you wrote in response to the section of my unsent (so far) draft response to my mother - specifically this section and then my commentary to readers of my post -


There is only one way I would be open to an interactive relationship with you going forward and that will only happen if you come to the understanding you owe me a true, heart-felt apology and then express that to me where I am convinced it actually comes from your heart.

[do not take this to mean I care for the apology itself and this has nothing to do with my ego. I need to hear from her heart she actually and truly sees she manifests this same behavior her mother did to her and as she has told me, her mother’s mother did to her mother, etc and that by a true, heart felt admission, she might then be able to work on the change. I do not expect her to change, I just require that she admits this so that we, together, can work on it such that this stops NOW in our family and the spiritual family we seem to continually reincarnate with]

I have reached the level of self awareness and self honesty in most cases that when it comes to something as important as this (at least from my mother's viewpoint as well as my own) and I point out the more significant purpose in my requirement of an apology - that I have evidence I should risk (again) a potential attack upon my still rather fragile emotional field where, if it is damaged enough a good half dozen other people are effected which I attempted to state clearly was my primary goal somehow got missed.

Anyways - not always is every action about someone's ego first and foremost... sometimes someone's action. In this case I require a test to be able to determine if I dare take one more risk with someone who supposedly loves me (at least she says that) and someone no one can deny has practical, personal responsibility towards me considering she is 1/2 the reason my spirit incarnated into this body in the first place.

This is why I refuse to pass along the family illness (any longer) to my sons, loved ones and friends and why I live my life in a constant mode of amends making.

[Flash]

When it comes to our own family Chester, we are the ones who knows the best. Whatever my comments were, they were only comments. Only suggestion. I would never argue your final decision or your train of thought for your own family. To me, there is not doubt you know best when it comes to your own life Chester.

Refusing to pass along the family illness is a truly humongous, courageous and very worthwile endeavour, in my humble opinion.

[Chester]

An apology indicates remorse and a desire to change, set things straight. For me, it isn't a demand of my ego, it's simply an acknowledgement that responsiblity has been taken and wrongs will be addressed in the future.


WoW! I should have just kept on reading the next posts as you, AutumnW stated exactly why I require an apology - if she can't or won't, then I draw the hard line as the best option available. It is not my preference, but regardless, she has free will, even if that will is to retain her illness.

She does not have the right to continue to spew this known venom on myself nor anyone else (IMO).

This thread has been helpful in solidifying my resolve and more importantly, helping me reduce my emotional reaction to all but zero as of this moment.

EDIT: and Thanks Target for your encouragement. I can promise this, I will always be as honest as I possibly can - even if I have to reveal I have faltered and backtracked on the growth path.

Let's see how this evolves.

[Chester]

Thanks Flash... I am definitely sensitive on this issue - it impacted me significantly as I seemed to experience the whole basis for just about all my issues since my childhood and this event last Saturday with my mom exposed it all to me.

If it were not for you and folks like you here on Avalon, I would not have been able to handle the event as I have so far (and note I have still not responded to my mom), but more importantly I am able to understand at my deepest levels of my being I have co-created this event and at the very deepest level, completely created this event.

This is what makes life, to me, so freaking fantastic and a completely worthwhile experience. I do not take the view of the "militant gnostic" that wishes all material realms vanish as they are all and only the creation of "the demiurge" aka Satan.

[Chester]

I've always thought that compassion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion) was one of the more corrupted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40165-Perversion-and-Corruption-of-Namaste-and-other-things-that-have-been-corrupted.....) words in the human language, but I think I see the true intent of the SPELLing here in this thread.

haha - well I must be completely honest... my misSPELLing was not consciously intended. Yet, that I did, demonstrates how my (the) subconscious so easily manifests when one is able to widen and shorten the bridge between "it" and our physically manifested reality.

Thanks for the great catch!

[Malerogro]

Chester, I wont pretend to know what you have gone through or are currently going through with your mother.Regardless of the outcome
your going to have to forgive her trangressions and make your peace. Otherwise this will continue to hurt you and cause you pain.
Chester if you do let go, Your heart will be lifted. Sincerely your friend jason

Jagman - thanks for the response. I don't judge my mother as good or bad so there is nothing to forgive. I have determined my mother is possessed by the same dark side energies that I have been plagues with and is clearly massively pervasive in my family line.

I see this event as an opportunity that spans multiple levels (in fact, this is how I approach life now - I look at situations from every level I possibly can so that I can derive a holistic view and thus a holistic decision if a decision is required). For me, the ultimate level is what I call, the metaphysical level. And here is the dilemma. Is my desire for a more comprehensive, expanded solution worth what may befall my mother on a more basic and/or limited level - which for her is simply she is "the mother" and thus automatically wiser and thus "right" and that since there is only this one life and that she is "old" she deserves to be given a pass...despite the fact she has recently and more than once expressed her deep regret she didn't tell her own mother off before her own mother passed away which occurred when my mother's mother was in her late 80s.

When I look at the matter through the eyes of energy management as the dark energies attach to "family lines" I see that though I might chose an action which might devastate my mother emotionally, the action may also free my sister, free her daughter, free her grand daughter, free my sons and incidentally free myself. Simple math suggests to me - "do it."

But, then... the most highest "self" (if there is one) within me says this... "don't react as that action would include emotion and that, you know, Chester... feeds the primal monster and no one is served by that.

So the letter I meant to send this morning was not sent. I am still considering how I will handle the situation. I have reread Grip's post more than once - each time I agree I chose these "spirits" to be in my life for whatever reason... perhaps it has been to learn there's no need for any attachment - it is almost anti-vampyric. Almost like a "clear bat" flapping its wings... neither black nor white.

I truly appreciate everyone's input and apologize I likely come across tremendously narcissistic, but being a full blown psychopath as I am (one that has changed and chosen to be in positive, right relationship with all and the All), knowing that I am, admitting to anyone and everyone that I am, I hope, is considered a positive step.

I had hoped I was able to identify a far deeper issue and that is the issue where families pass down "family mental and emotional illnesses." I have still not e-mailed her a response because I am working through all the possibilities as well as intentionally waiting until the massive emotional wave that I experienced has subsided... but this is not relegated to a simple matter between two closely related family members.

I keep being drawn towards your thread. Thanks for sharing your journey and struggle so open-heartedly! Every relationship is unique, and we are in a different life phase, but I still recognize your struggle. In my relationship with my father I feel like there is also a next step to be taken although I do not know what it is yet. In my head, and even on paper, I have written a lot of letters to him but so far I have only sent one in which I expressed my unconditional love for him no matter what had happened or ever would happen between us. So in the end I fully opened the door to him instead of drawing a line or requesting something from. Those letters I have written but never sent :)
Taht is a big question you ask about how to detach form the dark enrgies attached to the family line without "reacting". Maybe you do not need to respond to your mother in any eplicit way. Maybe if you break the patttern for yourself and your children you set a powerful example for your sister which will mean a positive turn for next generations. If it is a true change your mother will notice on some level and that will create the opportunity for her to change as well, or to continue on the destructive path, that is her free will.
It feels most definetly as anti-vampiric what you are trying to do. I wrote an article about it once (in Dutch). You are probably already familiar with the work of michael Tsarion about this subject?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiFspXI40mw

[Chester]

It all ended in a strange whimper. My mom called me on Thursday evening to inquire what happened at court that day for my son, Reid, who is facing prison. I could hear in her voice she was a bit embarrassed. My emotion from the situation was all but gone. I mentioned to her that I took her to be way too condescending and... here's the best part, she said, "really?" with the voice of an innocent person that really had no clue. I then asked her to try her best and I would try my best not to give her reasons to be such and it was all over... again, in a whimper.

But I know I will stay a safer distance from her - haha.

And in being honest, last night my boss was on the Skype with me. Suddenly things got weird and I stopped and asked what was wrong and he said "I just don't like it when you talk down to me." hahaha blew me away - not because I knew he was right, but because I really am making a conscious effort not to be so. So much for conscious efforts.