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jagman
5th May 2013, 15:09
I've spent quite a few years studying human behavior when I worked
at the prison and I guess it worked itself into my everyday life because
now when I go to any public place I find myself scanning and observing
the area that i'm in.

On Saturday I went to the mall. I was standing in a long line waiting.
There was a young woman with a baby stroller & 2 other kids standing
in front of me. The best way I can describe the young lady is trashy.
She was wearing a pair of those jogging pants that had a logo on the
arse "Tiger" and she also had a tramp stamp.She started yelling and
cursing her little girl. The girl was about 4 or 5 years old.

The little girl started crying and the mother reached out and smacked
her face and then she reached out and grabbed her by the face
and said "if you don't quit fooking crying i'm going to beat your ass!"
She then smacked her on the back.At that point she made eye
contact with me and I gave her a look of disdain. I was so pissed
at the situation I wanted to call the police. I guess the young lady
got the point of my stare because she stopped abusing the little girl.

She then started gossiping with 2 women who were in line behind me.
I know those women saw the same thing I witnessed but they started
talking to the young lady like they were her bff. Laughing and joking
it up and the little girl was standing there with her head down.
It was disgusting. I had been standing in line for about 30 min but
I couldn't handle it any longer so i left the line.

Strat
5th May 2013, 15:20
So what's next? How do we help people like this? The gal you described exists across the world. No little girl grows up and thinks she wants to grow up to be the type of a person who is judged poorly by other people. They need (practical) help, but what? Scorn and ridicule brings us all down in the end.

Sérénité
5th May 2013, 15:22
Breaks my heart to see and hear things like this...do these people not feel no guilt or shame when they look into their children's little eyes and see them looking back at the very person they love and should be able to trust, with such sadness and pure terror?

I agree this is a type of person you come across world wide. Maybe they were shown no love and therefore cannot show it to others.
Maybe they're so desperately lost and angry at the world they take it out on the ones who love and need them the most?

As the saying goes, the ones who need love and compassion the most are the ones we feel don't deserve it...but it really tests your resolve as a humane human to show love to someone who is cruel to a child

gripreaper
5th May 2013, 15:22
Lack of nurturing during gestation and infancy severs the visceral sensations from our humanity and turns good humans into psychotics, while lack of nurturing in toddlers does not build a personal boundary of emotion from which to interact with the world and turns good humans into neurotics. These parents have no idea how damaging their actions are to their children, and how these traumas and abuses will shed long shadows way into adulthood and create acting out behaviors for years to come.

The only way to break the cycle, is to own the pain and relive it in all of it's horror, and reconnect to the body those feelings which have been severed. That is why we see so many zombies roaming the streets. They have been severed from their own humanity.

scanner
5th May 2013, 15:23
Welcome too todays World, this is not uncommon and looks to be World wide . I've seen this many times here in the UK . Very sad most people have taken this path . Morals seem to have gone out of the window and any self respect with it .

Knowrainknowrainbows!
5th May 2013, 15:28
Thank you Jagman for this subject.

It is one that I struggle with as I have yet to find the best way to "intervene" when I witness such. My heart aches for the little ones and my intellect tells me how emotionally/spiritually void the "adult" must be to behave in that manner.

Nothing changes if nothing changes yet the only thing constant is change while there's nothing new under the sun ...
May your presence on Saturday have made a difference for the better in the lives of those you speak.

From the heart,
KRKR

spiritguide
5th May 2013, 15:42
Jagman, your glare caught by the mother and message received might be enough to get the mother to re evaluate her behavior. At least it did in that moment of contact. You sent the message and the mother received it all unspoken. For a moment in time you were that child's guardian angel.

Peace be with you!

william r sanford72
5th May 2013, 15:52
i see this all the time to.why i never go to walmart or target anymore.so should we say something?? often a look of disdain is not enough.thats what i ask myself when i see it.do i act??? is it my place.?? man jagman good thread.

Flash
5th May 2013, 16:07
Next time Jagman you tell the little girl that what her mother is doin IS NOT NORMAL, THAT OTHER PEOPLE TREAT THEIR CHILDREN MUCH BETTER. THAT SHE IS ALRIGHT, KIDS DO CRY, IT IS NORMAL. Mistreated kids NEEED TO HEAR IT they need someone to tell them this is not ok. This may save their life later on, they will remember forever someone told them.

The kids internatlize that they are the ones who are not fine, that they are the trash themselves. They put the blame on thermselves. When suicidal thoughts will come later on in their life, because it will garanteed, they will remember someone told them the truth. They may then get treatment instead of dying.

They need to hear someone tell them they are not trash but good beings but the human doing this to them is not ok.

And I would have called the police. Believe me, when you say it loud and everybody hears, people around get ashamed because they did not have the guts, but they may next time around. I know because I do speak out and loud. And the kid need to hear it.

To all of you here on avalon, please, protect the children. PLEAAAAAASE.

Sidney
5th May 2013, 16:15
Next time you witness this, take your phone out and start videoing. That is what I would have done, then I would have told that mother, you will call Family services if she cannot treat her child with love instead of hate. I know this opens up another can of worms regarding getting the govt involved, but sometimes family services does serve a purpose.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


next time jagman you tell the little girl that what her mother is doin is not normal, that other people treat their children much better. That she is alright, kids do cry, it is normal. Mistreated kids neeed to hear it they need someone to tell them this is not ok. This may save their life later on, they will remember forever someone told them.

The kids internatlize that they are the ones who are not fine, that they are the trash themselves. They put the blame on thermselves. When suicidal thoughts will come later on in their life, because it will garanteed, they will remember someone told them the truth. They may then get treatment instead of dying.

They need to hear someone tell them they are not trash but good beings but the human doing this to them is not ok.

And i would have called the police. Believe me, when you say it loud and everybody hears, people around get ashamed because they did not have the guts, but they may next time around. I know because i do speak out and loud. And the kid need to hear it.

To all of you here on avalon, please, protect the children. Pleaaaaaase.

ditto ditto ditto

Mike Gorman
5th May 2013, 16:52
It is a tricky one, seems the overarching moral conscience has all but disappeared for a lot of 'ordinary' folk,
we have several generations of 'liberalism' in schools, which is not freedom, but an absence of clear direction-the so-called relativist position.
If you did intervene, and ball the mother out, it would just cause an ugly scene, and the kids would probably cop it worse once they were home, or worse the parent could
have a physical go at you and you would be forced to defend yourself-also very ugly. Parental abuse of children is on the rise, my wife works in psychiatric hospitals, and used to run family therapy
programs-these people are clueless and lack empathy, or common decent feelings-I don't know what the solution is, bad parents are the first to scream about their right to breed-and then they spend their lives resenting their loss of freedoms...sigh

OOO
5th May 2013, 17:10
In instances like these, if you wish to help the child, is key
to reserve judgement. The best help, and I have done this
many times, is to share peaceful energy. To compassionately
tell the mother that she has wonderful, beautiful children and
understanding how difficult it is to be a mother. That she
has the hardest job in the world.
The energy changes instantly and you provide a different
train of thought for the mother which inturn trickels down
to the child.

What I find worse is what abuse happens behind closed
doors. The most polite and cultured turn into monsters
regardless of education and money and status. The
"Trashy" don't hide it...hmmm

ghostrider
5th May 2013, 17:26
the sad truth is when the little girl is older she will gravitate to the first guy who is nice to her, then he will eventually abuse her and she will put up with it ... they will have a child and cycle continues ... The first five years are the molding years ...forget the mom, it's the little girls future that's in trouble already ...what kind of world are we leaving to the younger generation ???

jagman
5th May 2013, 17:37
In instances like these, if you wish to help the child, is key
to reserve judgement. The best help, and I have done this
many times, is to share peaceful energy. To compassionately
tell the mother that she has wonderful, beautiful children and
understanding how difficult it is to be a mother. That she
has the hardest job in the world.
The energy changes instantly and you provide a different
train of thought for the mother which inturn trickels down
to the child.

What I find worse is what abuse happens behind closed
doors. The most polite and cultured turn into monsters
regardless of education and money and status. The
"Trashy" don't hide it...hmmm

I appreciate the response but if this woman acts like this in public i'm
sure behind closed doors she is much worse. This woman's behavior
was trashy and abusive and that's a fact! She doesn't deserve my
good thoughts or intentions, I'll save that for the little girl who was
being viciously abused. That woman deserved a few nights in jail!!!!

OOO
5th May 2013, 18:09
How does this punishment serve anyone? Especially the child?
A child loves its mother unconditionally it is all it has.
I have no solution to this, i wish i had with all my might,
but exposing the mother to more negativity ie jail is akin
to treating the symptom and not curing the disease.

Its hard as hell watching this happen and harder still experiencing it.

Corncrake
5th May 2013, 18:34
What a sad story and like so many others here I have seen similar scenes all too often myself. When you witness a scene such as this one we are rarely aware of all the facts - ie what is going on behind the scene. There is most probably a lack of education, sleepless nights, drug/alcohol abuse and no regular income. It is so hard not to be judgemental but - and I am not excusing her behaviour - she is probably bringing up her children just as she was brought up herself and that is the difficulty. How to stop the cycle.

jagman
5th May 2013, 18:34
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Burke, Edmund
Source: Attributed to EDMUND BURKE, but never found in his works. It may be a paraphrase of Burkes view that When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle

I stayed silent and evil prevailed but I will stay silent no longer. That little girl deserved better.

Christine
5th May 2013, 22:30
So what's next? How do we help people like this? The gal you described exists across the world. No little girl grows up and thinks she wants to grow up to be the type of a person who is judged poorly by other people. They need (practical) help, but what? Scorn and ridicule brings us all down in the end.

Hi Strat,

I so agree with you, it is a vicious circle. And the question you asked that begs answering is "How do we help people like this?"

This needs to be assessed by any person who finds themselves in a similar situation. Perhaps what that mother needed to hear from everyone around her that her behavior WASN'T okay, complacency has become the norm so no one speaks up therefore it goes on and on. The ladies behind her in line were just as guilty as the woman who committed the act herself.

WE are the ones making our world, so the question is only answerable by oneself as where we draw a line.

True compassion for me indicates I must act, my heart is in empathy with that little girl. Maybe if someone had stood up and spoke for her she would have learned something fundamental and perhaps that one act of kindness could have changed some small part of her life.


“The whole idea of compassion is based on a keen awareness of the interdependence of all these living beings, which are all part of one another, and all involved in one another.”

Thomas Merton
If I were the little girl I would indeed be wishing with all my heart that someone would stop the abuse. And if I am the mother I would be wishing with all my heart, even hidden to myself, that someone would stop me from hurting my little girl as my mother hurt me.

Then one can act from compassion and confront what I am sure Jagman was finding unconfrontable. I have been there myself, frozen in absolute horror and disdain watching a similar scene. I always left it wishing I had found the courage and the words and said something. And so we learn.

Thank you Jagman for putting these words down on the page... IMHO it is a scene well worth deep reflection and contemplation.

Christine

Poly Hedra
5th May 2013, 23:56
I was that kid. And that mother in the mall was probably brought up the same way as my mother was, being slapped and hit when she misbehaved as a child so when she has her own child she hits her too. It's something you learn. It doesn't nescessarily mean that it's drugs or alcohol. I'm guessing that she doesn't know any better which is not an excuse, just a sad state of affairs.
I really don't think that saying something to her would have made a difference or made her think differently, it would be more likely that the mother would take out the embarrassment the child caused her, (in her mind) and hit her again at home.
It's really sad and I have seen it too, seeing a mother slap and scream at her child and you just feel so helpless.
The police would do nothing either. I just hope that child will be ok someday as I am now. The cycle isn't always perpetuated, we learn to understand and forgive as I have.

northstar
6th May 2013, 00:07
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Burke, Edmund
Source: Attributed to EDMUND BURKE, but never found in his works. It may be a paraphrase of Burkes view that When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle

I stayed silent and evil prevailed but I will stay silent no longer. That little girl deserved better.


I think this hits the nail on the head jagman.

When we witness an act of bullying or harassment if we stand by and say nothing we are giving our silent assent to the violence. Giving the woman a stern look and/or feeling bad for the child and/or sending loving vibrations to the child is not anywhere near good enough. And in my opinion using the excuse that it wouldn't make a difference so why bother is not acceptable either. Social disapproval is incredibly powerful! Stop and consider that one of the reasons this woman feels it it totally OK to abuse her child in public is because NOBODY has had the courage to tell her to stop.

We will either speak truth to power or we will experience the consequences of tyranny.

I do not say this to condemn you jagman because we have all been silent bystanders to acts of violence perpetrated on the weak. Every single one of us has done this at some point in our lives and those who say they haven't are either mistaken or fibbing.

I am not saying this to make you feel bad because I get the sense you really get the lesson to be learned here. I am speaking to anyone reading this who believes that silence in the face of violence is "OK". I am speaking to those who are able to find any number of clever excuses to justify their silence and make it "OK".

When I was going through the airport scanner in Seattle last year and the TSA agent was harassing the frail, white haired elderly woman in line ahead of me I spoke out. I spoke truth to power, even through it resulted in my getting harassed when my turn came in the scanner. I am not sorry I spoke out to defend the woman who was being bullied by the TSA agent. All I know is that many, many human angels spoken out for me over the years and I know that when we demonstrate the courage to speak out we are supported by the angels and blessed in ways beyond human comprehension.

Kimberley
6th May 2013, 01:33
I was that kid. And that mother in the mall was probably brought up the same way as my mother was, being slapped and hit when she misbehaved as a child so when she has her own child she hits her too. It's something you learn. It doesn't nescessarily mean that it's drugs or alcohol. I'm guessing that she doesn't know any better which is not an excuse, just a sad state of affairs.
I really don't think that saying something to her would have made a difference or made her think differently, it would be more likely that the mother would take out the embarrassment the child caused her, (in her mind) and hit her again at home.
It's really sad and I have seen it too, seeing a mother slap and scream at her child and you just feel so helpless.
The police would do nothing either. I just hope that child will be ok someday as I am now. The cycle isn't always per
petuated, we learn to understand and forgive as I have.

I have wanted to comment on this thread most of the day however did not have the time until now..

I also was "that girl" in my own way...one of my earliest memories is at about age 2 1/2 to 3 years old. I said something my mother did not like and we were with her horse in our yard and she took the leather lead rope she was using with the horse and started wiping my 2 1/2 to 3 years old tiny legs with the leather lead rope.

The physical abuse continued until I was 14 years old. When an altercation pursued and my mother told me to pull my pants down for a belt spanking in front of my step father and I refused and realized for the first time in my life that I was actually stronger physically than my mother.

For many years after the age of 14 as I learned about karma, I wondered what "bad" I had done in past lives to deserve this abuse. However I came to understand that my abuse was not about karma for me it was about CHOOSING my mother to be my mother to assist me to wake up to understanding the powerful being that I am.

I am so very grateful for her agreeing to play the roll of my awakener. I now have no judgement about her abuse. I fully feel that we had an agreement and am so grateful for it...


I am and have always been in this current life time a very loving and humble being here to assist in the raising of the higher vibrating energy's of this planet at this time.

I suggest that we/you any of us do not have the power to fix anyone or anything except for ourselves.

Jagman and all...I agree with whom ever stated something about talking to the girl and telling her that she is perfect and to not internalize what her mother was spewing out. That would be a very empowering thing to do.

Although reporting the mother or such would only interfere with the agreements that were in place for the girl choosing to incarnate with the mother she chose to incarnate with.

No one intervened for me and my 14 years of physical and emotional abuse and I am more than fine and actually grateful for the experience because it helped to mold and grow me to be who I am!

As I have said over and over again... Judge not lest you be judged.

If you do not judge there is nothing to forgive!

I am living proof of this and all is well!

Much love & Peace!

Poly Hedra
6th May 2013, 02:31
Oh my god, Kimberly, you have described my experience exactly. But yes at the age of 14 also I realised that I didn't have to deal with the emotional abuse and beatings anymore and I just walked out one night after she chased me around the house. I stood up for myself and wouldn't let her hit me.

I have forgiven my mother over these last few years. I have also thought about how much she went through at such a young age. I feel for her. Whole other story.
I also know that I chose her to be my mother before I was born. Because of my experience I questioned my existence, why was I alive if I wasn't wanted? This was the question which I needed to find the answer to and because of this question I am the person I am now, a member of Avalon who had an existential crisis at 7 years old.

So it's great that people here feel so strongly about saying something to the mother, or saying something in future if the situation arises again. I wish someone stood up for me. My teachers, my uncle, my dad, my grandparents etc etc. But I still think the child would have bourne the brunt of that encounter at a later stage.

I have to add that my opinion is based on my own experience with being punished for embarrassing my mum in exactly the type of situation that was described by Jagman.

Kimberley
6th May 2013, 02:47
Oh my god, Kimberly, you have described my experience exactly. But yes at the age of 14 also I realised that I didn't have to deal with the emotional abuse and beatings anymore and I just walked out one night after she chased me around the house. I stood up for myself and wouldn't let her hit me.

I have forgiven my mother over these last few years. I have also thought about how much she went through at such a young age. I feel for her. Whole other story.
I also know that I chose her to be my mother before I was born. Because of my experience I questioned my existence, why was I alive if I wasn't wanted? This was the question which I needed to find the answer to and because of this question I am the person I am now, a member of Avalon who had an existential crisis at 7 years old.

So it's great that people here feel so strongly about saying something to the mother, or saying something in future if the situation arises again. I wish someone stood up for me. My teachers, my uncle, my dad, my grandparents etc etc. But I still think the child would have bourne the brunt of that encounter at a later stage.

I have to add that my opinion is based on my own perception due to my own experience with being punished for embarrassing my mum.

Conec thank you for sharing your experience also!!! I am happy that you too have realized it was for your growth to have experienced what you experienced. I know with out a shadow of a doubt that my experience was for my betterment, for my growth...not for karmic punishment.

And all is well!!!
Much Love!

bram
6th May 2013, 05:25
In instances like these, if you wish to help the child, is key
to reserve judgement. The best help, and I have done this
many times, is to share peaceful energy. To compassionately
tell the mother that she has wonderful, beautiful children and
understanding how difficult it is to be a mother. That she
has the hardest job in the world.
The energy changes instantly and you provide a different
train of thought for the mother which inturn trickels down
to the child.

What I find worse is what abuse happens behind closed
doors. The most polite and cultured turn into monsters
regardless of education and money and status. The
"Trashy" don't hide it...hmmm

Great response triple-0, I think you got it absolutely right!

we-R-one
6th May 2013, 06:33
Oh my god, Kimberly, you have described my experience exactly. But yes at the age of 14 also I realised that I didn't have to deal with the emotional abuse and beatings anymore and I just walked out one night after she chased me around the house. I stood up for myself and wouldn't let her hit me.

I have forgiven my mother over these last few years. I have also thought about how much she went through at such a young age. I feel for her. Whole other story.
I also know that I chose her to be my mother before I was born. Because of my experience I questioned my existence, why was I alive if I wasn't wanted? This was the question which I needed to find the answer to and because of this question I am the person I am now, a member of Avalon who had an existential crisis at 7 years old.

So it's great that people here feel so strongly about saying something to the mother, or saying something in future if the situation arises again. I wish someone stood up for me. My teachers, my uncle, my dad, my grandparents etc etc. But I still think the child would have bourne the brunt of that encounter at a later stage.

I have to add that my opinion is based on my own perception due to my own experience with being punished for embarrassing my mum.

Conec thank you for sharing your experience also!!! I am happy that you too have realized it was for your growth to have experienced what you experienced. I know with out a shadow of a doubt that my experience was for my betterment, for my growth...not for karmic punishment.

And all is well!!!
Much Love!

Glad to hear others are beginning to think the same, I was looking for this kind of response. Are we forgetting that life on Earth is only an illusion? Or have many not come to that understanding yet? IMO the proof is there. That being said, as hard as it is to watch, the little girl's experience may serve her well in the future for potential soul growth. We are all down here playing roles are we not?

That little girl was me growing up- subjected to an abusive relationship- oh how easy it would have been to rationalize my experience if I chose to utilize a 3D mindset of victim hood land. I would have never obtained the spiritual maturity in this lifetime had I not been on the receiving end of a seemingly horrific situation. I'm so grateful that my parents played the role that they did and it's the very reason I had my kundalini experience. Read here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52810-The-Solution-Is-In-Full-Swing-Are-You-On-Board&p=594595&viewfull=1#post594595

These situations are by design. How do you forgive if you are not violated in some manner or another? Look at it from an energetic level, literally.....I'm serious. If you want this reality to change, you need fuel! Emotions vibrate at different frequenciesl Negative situations are your fuel. The key is to learn how to transform those negative emotions of lower frequencies to the higher frequencies of love, compassion and forgiveness. Although at times difficult, stop thinking in 3D, you are making this child a victim in which she isn't unless you are still of a 3D mindset belief system. Everything is as it should be.....by addressing your spiritual house, in time when enough do the same, through their own spiritual growth, only then will the reality you wish for come to fruition. Be the change you want to see, the rest will follow thanks to the energy source filed we all share.

I do think there are times to interject a lending hand, but be careful about interfering with another persons soul growth...just my opinion.

Nothingness
6th May 2013, 06:39
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Burke, Edmund Source: Attributed to EDMUND BURKE, but never found in his works. It may be a paraphrase of Burkes view that When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle

I stayed silent and evil prevailed but I will stay silent no longer. That little girl deserved better.

If we have any compassion at all, we always hope we will do and say the right thing, but sometimes we don't. I always hope I will do and say the right thing, but sometimes it doesn't reach the perfection I had hoped for. If anything, the mother stopped harassing the child when she got your look Jagman--your intent was good. Something went on inside the mother that said: "Oh, not doing what I should be doing." She probably doesn't know how to be a decent parent because her own parents were horrendous-- and so the karmic wheel turns.

I'm deaf so I miss a lot of things sometimes--that's the blessing of being deaf. But when I can see something is going on like that, I get stressed. Being old and deaf has made me care less about how I appear to others, too. Usually I shout at the top of my lungs, because I can get away with it as a deaf old woman: "Having a bad day?!?!" Then I start signing after shouting, and everyone stops in the vicinity, including the mother and child, and all eyes are on them, or on us. I ask the child: "How did you get to be so cute? God must have broken the mold when He (She/It/Beingness) made you because you seem pretty special. Hmm? I think so."

The child starts to feel good and stops crying. Then I tell the mother what a beautiful child she has, and the mother begins to think her child really isn't so bad and she did do something right in her life for a change. I know it doesn't seem like much, but child services usually won't take a child away from the mother because it is so traumatic for the child, even if they don't have a perfect home. They say that if you speak ill of the mother or father in their presence, it affects the child, because they see themselves as one half of one or the other, and when the parent is chided, that part of them feels chided also.

So far it works, but there is always a chance the mother may lash into me, but since I'm deaf, I don't care because I don't have to hear her. I'm also not above shouting: "Why do you hate deaf people?" And then, of course, everyone stares, and I'm off the hook. Laughing. What can I say? I'm bad.

northstar
6th May 2013, 10:17
Here is a simple thought experiment:
Take jagman's story and replace the little girl with a puppy. (The scenario is that the woman is hitting and hollering at a puppy in the checkout line at a store)

It is obvious what compassionate humans would feel and think about this.

My question is:
What is the right thing to do? (What action should be taken, right in that moment?)

bennycog
6th May 2013, 10:32
Next time you witness this, take your phone out and start videoing. That is what I would have done, then I would have told that mother, you will call Family services if she cannot treat her child with love instead of hate. I know this opens up another can of worms regarding getting the govt involved, but sometimes family services does serve a purpose.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


next time jagman you tell the little girl that what her mother is doin is not normal, that other people treat their children much better. That she is alright, kids do cry, it is normal. Mistreated kids neeed to hear it they need someone to tell them this is not ok. This may save their life later on, they will remember forever someone told them.

The kids internatlize that they are the ones who are not fine, that they are the trash themselves. They put the blame on thermselves. When suicidal thoughts will come later on in their life, because it will garanteed, they will remember someone told them the truth. They may then get treatment instead of dying.

They need to hear someone tell them they are not trash but good beings but the human doing this to them is not ok.

And i would have called the police. Believe me, when you say it loud and everybody hears, people around get ashamed because they did not have the guts, but they may next time around. I know because i do speak out and loud. And the kid need to hear it.

To all of you here on avalon, please, protect the children. Pleaaaaaase.

ditto ditto ditto

As an experiencer, in childhood, of this type of situation.
An approach to this women would be out of the question. It would need to go to an outside source.
The reason is that I could bet 100 percent that if something was said to the mother or if she was threatened in any way, that the child would have copped a beating even more severe as soon as they returned home. Out of other peoples sight.
I feel for that child and I know she will act out for attention or if she has any time away from the mother she will feel so damn free that she will just go nuts until she has to go home again.
The fear and happiness is at it's most raw in children in these situations.

enfoldedblue
6th May 2013, 11:32
When I first read this thread earlier today it just made me feel really sad thinking of all the terrible suffering some kids experience at the hand of those who are supposed to love and protect them... and then the viscious cycle that so many end up caught in. But reading through now I am filled with hope. Right here we have several examples of people who lived this, but were strong enough in spirit to step out of the viscious cycle and use the experience to grow and become better people... filled with love and compassion rather than anger and hate.

Thank you so much to all who shared.

Prodigal Son
6th May 2013, 11:57
Oh my god, Kimberly, you have described my experience exactly. But yes at the age of 14 also I realised that I didn't have to deal with the emotional abuse and beatings anymore and I just walked out one night after she chased me around the house. I stood up for myself and wouldn't let her hit me.

I have forgiven my mother over these last few years. I have also thought about how much she went through at such a young age. I feel for her. Whole other story.
I also know that I chose her to be my mother before I was born. Because of my experience I questioned my existence, why was I alive if I wasn't wanted? This was the question which I needed to find the answer to and because of this question I am the person I am now, a member of Avalon who had an existential crisis at 7 years old.

So it's great that people here feel so strongly about saying something to the mother, or saying something in future if the situation arises again. I wish someone stood up for me. My teachers, my uncle, my dad, my grandparents etc etc. But I still think the child would have bourne the brunt of that encounter at a later stage.

I have to add that my opinion is based on my own experience with being punished for embarrassing my mum in exactly the type of situation that was described by Jagman.

Wow. I have been holding off commenting on this thread because I didn't know how to articulate my own experience without it sounding like I wanted sympathy. My mother was a totally abusive nut job, both verbally and physically, not only of myself but my two sisters. She had been carted off to a mental asylum when I was 1 1/2 and returned when I was 4, thankfully I was spared those 2 1/2 years of abuse, otherwise who knows how much worse off I might have been. My father was a big reason for her madness, being a drunk and a gambler, but he finally left when I had just turned 12. I also took the abuse until I was big enough and old enough to defend myself and not put up with it anymore. When I was 14 I simply walked out and stayed with friends, or whoever would have me. When I was 16 I found my father and went to live with him for awhile. Like you, I have also learned that I chose my family and situation situation before I came here.

Needless to say I did a lot of self-sabotage over the ensuing decades, but one thing that I did NOT do was to repeat the pattern with my own children. I was able to break the long chain of abuse in my family and give them all the love and support that I didn't get. I stay as far away from casinos, card games and racetracks as possible. Still, I didn't realize how much anger I was keeping bottled up inside. My father died in 2002, and although I thought he was a weak and pathetic individual right up until his death, I never consciously felt anger towards him... until some incredibly persistent back pain brought me to a psychic healer in 2006. She channeled my father, and he profusely apologized for not protecting me from the abuse, begging for my forgiveness. The pain had been coming from resentment towards my father, not my mother, and I found that shocking.

This experience was a life changer for me. It was then that I realized we are all evolving spirits that temporarily inhabit our bodies until we die, and then we move on, inching closer to God with each life experience. It was the beginning of my personal awakening.

witchy1
6th May 2013, 12:03
I stood up to a women in a store a few years ago.... this is my story

I too have witnessed appaling behaviour from parents on a few occassions and each time I felt sick not having intervened and those memories will haunt me forever.

This particular day around christmas a woman with perhaps an 18 month old and maybe 3 yr old shopping. You could just feel the tension rising and I knew what was about to happen, so I kept a discrete distance knowing that if she did do anything, it was my time to take a stand. Having seen it before, I had gone over it my mind about what I should have done, could have done, what I should have said and what was the worst thing that could happen..... you know, just what everyone else does.

There were many others in the shop, all equally uncomfortable. Anyway it did escalate she started yelling at the kids, they started to cry and Mum lashed out viciously

I stepped up and asked her and said something like, "please dont hit your children" to which she replied something like its got nothing to do with me. I said that it did that eveyone could hear her and its upsetting everyone in the shop and more so your children. She told me in no uncertain terms to buggar off and stay out of her business. I said they are just little boys and dont deserve that treatment and I said if you dont stop I will call child services or the police. She was speechless.
Both children stopped crying and stared at me. They had a look of utter amazement in their eyes - I felt they were saying wow Mum can get gowled at too and more importantly - thank you.

She left the shop without her purchases. Others came up to me and said good on me etc etc. I thought why the hell didnt anyone else say anything.

I can tell you I shook and shook, but feel that in the end I do hope that the children might feel that there are people out there, complete strangers, who they can turn to and will stick up for them.

Would I do it again, you bet.

I think also that we should not judge people buy what they wear. This lady was well dressed. I have read that there is as much abuse in "good" homes as there are in "poor" homes.

You will have to live with your conscience if you do nothing, and that is really uncomfortable. Please please say something. The children do need to know there are good people in the world who will do the right thing by them

Yes its hard, really hard. But its easier than carrying the burden of doing nothing. We just cannot stand by and let it happen.

I too thought of what might happen when they got home, I could only hope that she might consider that people (stangers) simply wont stand by and accept child abuse. I bet no-one ever stood up to her before!

I am hopeful she might just reflect on her disgusting behaviour. If it was going on at home before it will probably continue and sadly there is not too much we can do when they are behind closed doors. I can only hope that the children, will remember that Mum was wrong and she will be taken to task - they might even reach out for help if they need to and some-one will help them. There are good people in the world.

CD7
6th May 2013, 12:45
Well when so many Hours are spent on x + y = information tht will have no value in your life and absolutely No hours spent on conflict resolution and raising stable humans WELL WHT DO WE EXPECT...?

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 13:54
Poor home training happens when parents have to work two or three jobs and this woman sounds like the vital love that was missing in her life is being reflected on her child. She may not be aware that she is tearing the childs self-esteem and confidence by bullying a 5 yr old. It sets them up to accept bullying at school because the person is bigger and the intimidation goes into their teen years to which the teens are taught to lash out physically to calm a situtation that is unwanted. NOT excusing it, but that is the situation with young mothers. Soap operas didn't teach that crap, they taught it was wrong to physically put their hands on anyone and to resolve a misunderstanding by verbal wit along with respectful speech. Reality shows, are reactionary and do not help the young adults learn to cope with a crying child. Ignoring the outburst is the best, but if they start getting destructive in the isles, a stern look of disappointment and a scolding to be left home with a neighbor next time you shop, usually shuts them up, or even a little pinch on the back of the hand will stop the behavior. Me, I'm from the hood, "tomboy, martial artist, carpenter, Green Associate for LEED, and medical lab technician and gardner) learned to pluck my boys if they are getting aggressive, and pinch my girls lightly if they are getting 'bitchy."

The lessons of a think knot for boys, and a little rub during lotion time to remind them that they were not on their best behavior in public.
I had a mother that worked and was a alcoholic to cope w/divorce single motherhood. Hugs were given when you accomplished things in life. Be it knowledge or cleaning up to help her manage or babysit, we all had to pitch in. Children don't want to be a part of a family/parent that abuses them, and most are in fear of confrontation, praying they will just go eat, sit in front of a tv, and leave them the hell alone.

Some parents want to mold the child, some parents ONLY see the missing parent in the child, which also carries a reactionary physical action, if the separation was painful or abusefilled before the separation. The same thing happens with a rape child the emotions goes through the child as she tries to deal with the violation of her body and sometime they miscarry because it's so horrible to them. Men would never know that, but women do. There's NO excuse for abuse to a child, if there is no parenting of love, they can't change the childs life, because the way they were brought up and are ignorant to how they got that way in the 1st place.

It's so complicated to be a woman. Be we do the best we can. I think when a woman has to do the figuring to balance the family food budget can be stressful, if a child is hitting that last nerve screaming. What would you have done as the child's parent, is different from how she evidently was taught as well as others here who have learned as I did later in life, to not see the other parent in a child who came by abuse/rape. See the side of yourself, work on it, and learn the child to balance those other negative things growing up, that lead to abusing others on earth. I and my siblings were abused children where the generation of "extension cord users" were in full force as parents to keep us off the streets at night in a racist era. They knew there was always the chance if we were in the streets, that someone could snatch us and take us from home forever or kill us because of our color after rape. WE were voluptuous and curvacious women in our family, so less immodesty and down to the knee fashions were encouraged. Freaks came out at night for real in my hood. Diverse freaks, tricks, and child molesters in the neighborhood.

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 15:33
My Mom told me the reason she put so much responsibility on me, was because she knew I was different and could handle it better than the others. Been that way all my life. I am 3rd, but was put in lead. The older siblings just quit helping and split or went into crime from lack financially. Hustling after school store janitorial, running to stores for seniors, delivering newspapers, sports kept me out of trouble and kept my younger siblings I was in charge of, in decent clean parks where we practiced softball and had community block parties to feel the love of neighbors and friends when Mom had to work nights cleaning houses so she could be there in the morning to send us to school, before leaving for the 8am-4pm morning factory cosmetics job. All in all the experience is all coming together and I hope I came through most times/outweighing any bad decisions, with good intent choices.

Here's to the party we planned to be at!
Cheers!

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 16:17
Thank God the internet is here to unbiasly touch/talk/reach out to all who are listening. We all have an experience or two or three in our lifetimes, that we ourselves may have overcome, that others can't begin to learn to move on from. These experiences serve as lessons of proof or truth, and I can't help but think that, that is "ALL" good.

Who needs a therapist, when unconditional love and acceptance is right here?
LOL

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 16:26
I'm gonna start recommending they go barefoot in a park to stay grounded, or to recharge/repair balance. I guess that's why the forefathers were wiser, becauser they used wooden or leather shoes, where now "rubber keeps the negative charges in the body bouncing around" easily. Connect to mother earth, I always walk barefoot in the park, and help to keep the parks clean for this purpose. A good book under a tree in the sunshine on a warm day, walking across the grass to a favorite spot of quiet has always made me feel free. Used to compete running barefooted and litterally felt like I was flying around 9yrs old.

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 16:35
It is also why I valued planned parenthood so much. I was actually able to give my "superfertilebody"(19 prgncy) a break. The option to say, hey, I know how well I pass eggs a month, but really, in real world, can I afford all 19, and this was after the strongest birth control was use on me and caused tumors on ovaries. Amazing the 'be fruitful and multiply" must be in my blessings also, from throughout historical ancestors.
Gave me pauses during dating when a guy wanted to just play house, also.

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 16:41
I've changed the negative energy many times. "Hey there gorgeous gal, you giving momma the rasberries?" and then thhhhbbbb! That's not nice, both of you be nice to each other, ya hear? Hey Mommie, I used to go through the same thing.....few moments wait and say...don't worry, this too shall pass. I started finding a babysitter when I had to do my numbers on the food budget. Nothing stresses you more, than not having that moments peace to think. Don't we know it. Alright little lady, you behave yourself hear and give momma a break, okay?

jagman
6th May 2013, 17:00
Thank you all for your responses.
These situations touch nerves in people and sometimes
reopen old wounds but I thought it was important to put it down
in writing since it is a common problem shared worldwide.
Reading through some of the responses about abuse that
some members here went through was heart-wrenching.
The word "judgmental" also came up a few times. Was I being
judgmental in calling the woman trashy? Maybe... But her
behavior was totally out of line. I do not have the ability to
see through that young lady eye's or walk a mile in her shoes.
what i have learned in my 14 years of being a father is
parenting is really hard and it is also the most rewarding part
of my life.I have always used love and compassion when
teaching my sons.

Lifebringer
6th May 2013, 17:01
To remain neutral on injustice is to give consent to the injustice or something to that matter.

Bishop Desmond TuTu

Flash
6th May 2013, 17:47
Thanks to all for your comments and experiences.

To me, it is utterly important to let know to the child that it is not his fault, he is not the crooked one, that some adult just do not have it together. This often will be sufficient to support that child later on when he will decide that enough is enough. Some other adults had seen it and told him, now the action is his to take.

I did tell a woman and a child lately at the store that we do not slap here in Canada nor scream like this (she was not Canadian) and told the child that this is not alright, it could be better. I took care of a little neighbour whose mother was drug addict and slapping her back and forth. Well, when the little one became a teenager and was harassed by her mother's addict boyfriends, guess whom she came to tell. So we could call for help. Who would she have talked to if I had not reacted prior.

Once I had for a while a cleaning lady whose husband was beating the hell out of her and her two daughters. I talked to them, telling them this is not right and to him, telling him I would not let it go like this. Beating receded quite a lot once he had been in court, him telling to his friends not to beat their wife. Refusal of violence does spread around as much as not acting on it does as well. The girls would often come with their mom, then started to call me up to help in their homework, and, growing up, told me they wanted to be like me..... lol (they did not know better lol).

I asked a little boy in the shopping center (about 6) why he had a black eye. The parents were right behind me. They understood the message, I could see it in their face.

Finally, I never allowed anybody to beat up my daughter nor scream at her, including me, and the incredible mental cruelty her father would play on her was listened to when she talked and her analysis were confirmed, she was not the crazy one. Also, when she did not want to go to her dad, she did not have to as soon as the law permitted it (around 11 years old here with court agreement, but he would not dare going to court to contest his daughter's decisions). In the meantime, anytime he would not take her, I would without any hesitation tell him I was free to keep her, as he is lazy and did not want to hamper his personal life, the amount he saw her was greatly reduced, even if this did not give me much free time.

I do wish also that someone had talked to me when I was young, just telling me that the continuous screaming at, little beating, and rejection I was subjected to was not alright. I would not have believed that I totally deserved it because I was somehow deficient (in what, I never knew....). It would certainly have shorten the decisions I made to go through it and solve this inner turmoil and I may not have married the kind of guy I married.

It is important to tell the child that this is not normal and that there is different loving families in this world.

westhill
7th May 2013, 02:14
Seems a lot of us had the same mother.

The only real powerful action is not become like them. I have a great admiration for all of you
who decided to heal yourselves and not pass on your pain to others. Staying sane in an insane
childhood is the hardest of lessons. To be little and realize you have a better grasp than those
supposed to be in charge of you is a shock! You find you have to parent yourself (and the mom).

conk
7th May 2013, 18:06
What every parent should have drilled into their mind is the fact that a child under age 5 is incapable of controlling their emotions or their compulsion. They simply cannot control their impulses. Their brains are not wired yet, the frontal cortex is undeveloped. So, no amount of screaming or whipping will change them.

And parents that strike their children are more emotionally immature than the child. Spare the rod, spoil the child is the most rediculous advice EVER! Teach your kids, don't assault them.

Prodigal Son
7th May 2013, 18:32
Spare the rod, spoil the child is the most rediculous advice EVER! Teach your kids, don't assault them.
We can thank the "wise" King Solomon for that one....

Proverbs 29:15 New International Version (©2011)
"A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother."

You know, the same dude who came up with the brilliant idea to sever a baby in half to settle a dispute between two women claiming it was theirs. And for this he is revered by billions....

Brought to you by the same geniuses who came up with "an eye for an eye".

Zionists: Making Earth a living hell since 537 BC.....

Selene
8th May 2013, 02:45
Opprobrium, the ol’ hairy eyeball staring at socially or culturally unacceptable behavior, is a powerful tool for molding behavior. I think – if I may say so - that Jagman used this tool appropriately under the circumstances. This thread has been rolling on at great value, (I had the same Mother From Hell....!) but to comment on Jagman's original dilemma:

While I agree that the ‘therapeutic/sympathetic’ approach is useful in a variety of situations, sometimes stronger tactical medicine is called for: force meeting equal force. Enough, but not more. The mother in this case was clearly not aware – for whatever reason – that her treatment of her child was inappropriate. She was simply not sensitive to this, and it is necessary to ‘speak’ to her in her own terms. A more subtle method would probably have washed right over without effect.

It is incredibly useful to think ‘I will treat others as I would wish to be treated.’ Yes.

But we are also regularly confronted with the problem of Q: How do I communicate with someone who is not on my wavelength?

The answer: Get onto theirs. Speak their language. Communicate in their terms, whatever they may be.

In this case the wavelength is a sad and difficult one; you need to growl, even if you’re only faking. But sometimes it’s helpful to look at the situation not only as “what outcome do I want?” but “how can I get there?” And do what you need to do.

Cheers,

Selene