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music
12th May 2013, 21:21
Really people, time to refresh a few memories here.

Inside Scientology: Abuse, Human Trafficking, FBI Probes (http://www.newser.com/story/111440/inside-scientology-abuse-human-trafficking-fbi-probes.html)

Scientology's Shocking Treatment of Children Held in a Suburban Labor Camp (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_shane_kelsey_rpf.php)

Ex-Scientologists Speak (http://www.factnet.org/ex-scientologists-speak)

A Scientologist's Horrifying Memories of Child Abuse and Exploitation (http://jezebel.com/5982520/how-scientology-abuses--exploits-children)

SECRET LIVES - L. Ron Hubbard (http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/media/tv/secret/secret3.html)

So I say again, people - Really? ... Really?

Hervé
12th May 2013, 21:33
I don't think anyone on this forum is going to argue with you on that subject music.

And anyone who has experienced the beneficial results of the original LRH tech will tell you that the tech and the church are two totally different things.

But if you want to rally the disgruntled and witch hunters... do as... errr... thou wilt...

music
12th May 2013, 21:36
Well, they say there's a sucker born every minute. Good luck with that.

music
12th May 2013, 21:45
I will admit I am in a fractious mood, but I draw a line in the sand at child abuse. That's just how I roll. If child abuse is fine by others, then there is not much I can do about that. There is one unnassailable point, and that is, for the levels of abuse that have occurred to have occurred, there is quite obviously no moral, spiritual or itellectual advantage to be had from any supposed revelations or technologies this dross masquerading as enlightenment has to offer.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

And that, by the way, will be my final word on the matter. But hey, y'all feel free to intellectualise away the cries and the tears and the nightmares of the abused.

Wookie
12th May 2013, 22:03
I wonder if Jesus and the like intended to have their teachings turned into the Catholic Church?

Bill Ryan
12th May 2013, 22:04
I don't think anyone on this forum is going to argue with you on that subject music.

And anyone who has experienced the beneficial results of the original LRH tech will tell you that the tech and the church are two totally different things.


Yes, they're two very different things.

An analogy would be the vast repertoire of tools and techniques used by honest and skilled mechanics to repair the engine of your car... vs. the dishonest and crooked mechanic who takes your car in, charges you a fortune, and then doesn't really fix it at all so that you keep on having to come back for more expensive repairs. And meanwhile, the car never runs right after that again at all.

The problem is the unethical mechanic. Not the tools.

Bill Ryan
12th May 2013, 22:20
-------

1) For what really happened, read this interview transcript:

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

2) An excellent audio from a BBC radio documentary in 1987. Do listen: it's very well researched, exceptionally balanced, and contains some astonishing information.

http://projectcamelot.org/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3

eaglespirit
12th May 2013, 22:39
Once again....everything that is anything in regards to our "real" advancement has been infiltrated and rigged and distorted and plagiarized, everything.
...especially those teachings that led to the real time use of our own individual sovereign spiritual powers to directly help alter matters on Mother Earth for the uplifting enhancement of humanity and the higher endeavors of serendipitous loving deeds and change abounding everywhere.
Please give our new 'independent' poster the benefit of the doubt...please. He is not touting a religion.
Something very good is coming about, imho.

It is time to really come together on this forum and in our daily lives and 'work' our common aspirations for the betterment of all.

puurfectten
13th May 2013, 00:01
I don't think anyone on this forum is going to argue with you on that subject music.

And anyone who has experienced the beneficial results of the original LRH tech will tell you that the tech and the church are two totally different things.


Yes, they're two very different things.

An analogy would be the vast repertoire of tools and techniques used by honest and skilled mechanics to repair the engine of your car... vs. the dishonest and crooked mechanic who takes your car in, charges you a fortune, and then doesn't really fix it at all so that you keep on having to come back for more expensive repairs. And meanwhile, the car never runs right after that again at all.

The problem is the unethical mechanic. Not the tools.

strange this thread came up. agree 100%..i read most or at least a good part of the book maybe 20 yrs ago. it wasn't until much later in life that I had used a lot of what was in the book to save myself from the path I was on.i probably would have drank myself to death. after looking back I realized that what I had done was what was in the book without being conscious of it at the time..but the funny thing is just this Friday I was telling a kid I know and I say kid..he's 32 yrs old lol..to get the book and read through it but just don't pay attention to the church of scientology stuff just read through the book.get what u can out of it.it's worth it...I think the survival instinct which embedded in all humans just as is in all animals creates a fundamental problem in humans due to the nature of our consciousness as opposed to other animals..when a dog for example touches something hot of has a run in with a lion..there is a negative emotion attached to the memory which stops the dog from doing that..of learning to run from a lion..this is good...but in humans there are so many excess experiences which get a negative emotion or charge attached to it that it becomes problematic ..to fix this u need to drain the emotional charge from the memories so they can be re-filed away as clear memories without all the other stuff attached to them..and it works..ijust my opinion but I think everyone should learn this..:)......lee

Sidney
13th May 2013, 01:21
I think its obvious (to me anyway) why this thread came up.

The fact of the matter is, remember Steven Greer. Saying ALL ETs are good????? And of course DUH, statistics alone prove that theory wrong, just like saying Earth is the only planet that inhabits intelligent beings. (we are?) lol

My point is, there is enlightenment and contamination in every corner of the world. Whether its planets, countries,cities,neighborhoods,RELIGIONS, schools, churches, or girl/boy scout troops.

This is simply the way it is.

One of the best friends I ever had, a very enlightened, loving woman, is a devout catholic. And while I am not catholic, or even religious really, (I believe in SOMETHING, regardless of what I name IT) she is my friend, has always been good to me and everyone else she comes into contact with. AND, she even works for her local catholic organization. The pain she has endured over the controversies in the Catholic sect is unreal, but she has not herself become jaded or cynical.

I also am aware of someone (don't know him personally)heavily involved in a different christian church in a town I used to live in that was a dirty pedophile, and never got caught because no one could prove it..

Our world is full of bad people. Period. but we just cannot stereotype, because its irresponsible.

Nothingness
13th May 2013, 03:42
Okay, Okay. I need to look at the timinii thread a little more. All right, I admit I am having a "cranky old fool" few days. It's like: Now what? What is it now? Maitreya? Scientology? Please, no more of that. I know Ashayana Deane talked about each person having 12 selves in different time fields and dimensions. I'm not saying I am a Deane proponent either. Now I've probably offended ten more people along with the other 20 people I've already t'd off because I may have been over effusive. Laughing. I feel I am entitled to an occasional "old fool" day every now and then. I am deaf with Wegener's and some days making a cup of tea is all the challenge I can muster up, and after the cup of tea I have to go to bed and rest because it's all been too much. Thank you Bill R. for the transcript reference from above. I'm exhausted from making this comment and making a cup a tea.

kirolak
13th May 2013, 05:31
Coincidentally (!?) I have just completed the Self Assessment Test for the first time (the link to which I found on these forums, though I can not find it again). I have found all sorts of memories rising to my consciousness, some good, some bad, but all very vivid; & my dreams have been very intense.

I do not follow Scientology & never have, but found it an interesting exercise to do the tests. I have definitely felt more cheerful, too . . . .btw does anyone know where that link can be found, I have used to search function to no avail.

music
13th May 2013, 08:36
I said I had my final word, but Bill, I think I owe you my thoughts since this is your forum after all, and I find you a likable person. I will give them, and then I will read and listen to the material you have provided, since I simply do not have the time now. I have a chicken carcass boiling to make chicken noodle soup for my family who are feeling the current intense energies a fair bit right now, as are many, and I have night surveys to do tomorrow night, so my family needs my attention tonight. I looked briefly at the Camelot link, saw the term “black ops” and decided this needs my full attention, something I cannot give now. It will be interesting to see if my thoughts change after examining this material.

My current understanding is that not only have the current and recent leadership of Scientology engaged in the systematic abuse, debasement, personality destruction/reconstruction (cf MK Ultra), and mind control of impressionable minors given in to their care, but the founder and espouser of this religion is likewise heavily implicated in the same reprehensible behaviour. I make no bones about the fact that I was sexually abused as a five year old child, and perhaps this informs my view, but my high heart tells me that it does not. Caveat: as the lioness will protect her cubs to the death, so too will I always be a voice for the abused. I have walked through that fire and emerged not only whole, but augmented with understandings and visions that were gifted to me through my pain so I could emerge and fulfil my own personal role here. My role is not to be liked, or admired, or even respected and loved – my role is to speak my truth, and let the chips fall where they may. Regardless of that, people who know me in my personal life universally love me for the good that I do. That is not ego - it is just how it is. You know that my partner, a respected voice here, is my truth control in this.

We perhaps would benefit from asking ourselves this question: if these awareness techniques are so real and steeped in truth – so “enlightening” – then why do those who espouse (and presumably practice) them commit such heinous crimes? The litany of abuse I have encountered would seem to me to be the antithesis of enlightenment. Should we perhaps consider the possibility of an ersatz “enlightenment”, and that there are some rather clever little bugs contained within the techniques? Now some may argue that accusations of abuse are “disinformation”, and I will, as I said, examine these later. There will no doubt be the claim that these techniques are being hidden from the world by some dark, draconian force bent on our subjugation? Hey, that sounds like the plot of a sci fi novel to me. Wait a minute, it is the plot of a sci fi novel!

It is a lamentable fact of the world at large, and this forum is an exemplar of that (not the only one obviously), that people expend most of their energy of understanding in the mental realm. The intellect will promote, in fact it will actively encourage, the exaltation of the individual thinker over all else. The heart, on the other hand, is the great leveller. I am no better than you, Bill, I am no better than the Christ Consciousness, I am no better than Hubbard or Hitler, yet I love every single being with my high heart equally. I don’t like Hubbard or Hitler (based on my current understanding and energetic reading of these entites), but I don’t have to. To me, “dislike” means “I love you, but I see the things that you do are not conducive to the greater common good”, and part of my role is to see this.

I’ll be straight with you Bill, while I will undertake to read the material you have presented with open mind and heart, I would ask you to concurrently consider whether you are a victim of residual programming with equally open mind and heart.

In closing, I wish to apologise to Amer Zo for my snarky comment earlier – I am a warrior of who is not yet fully seated in the high heart, and sometimes I act wrongly.

CdnSirian
13th May 2013, 14:06
http://worldcultwatch.org/another-space-sex-cult/

It is easy to become extremely cautious and cranky about the whole issue - when anyone can start tossing about the name Maitreya - the linked article just an example...a blend of salvation, redemption, free sex, cloning, Ufo's, the path to an Elite electorate world order, - led by one who chose to use the name Maitreya, the element that fits the least in the mix of ideas.

This one must have taken a Vita Mix or a Nutri Bullet, the blender would have broken down.

Sidney
13th May 2013, 14:18
-------

1) For what really happened, read this interview transcript:

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

2) An excellent audio from a BBC radio documentary in 1987. Do listen: it's very well researched, exceptionally balanced, and contains some astonishing information.

http://projectcamelot.org/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3

This one statement from the beginnings of Danes interview explains ALOT, and eases my discomfort of the whole of the controversies. I believe it with every cell in my body.
"The reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because of the mind control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and ability."

ulli
13th May 2013, 15:04
-------

1) For what really happened, read this interview transcript:

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

2) An excellent audio from a BBC radio documentary in 1987. Do listen: it's very well researched, exceptionally balanced, and contains some astonishing information.

http://projectcamelot.org/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3

This one statement from the beginnings of Danes interview explains ALOT, and eases my discomfort of the whole of the controversies. I believe it with every cell in my body.
"The reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because of the mind control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and ability."

The same reason that a grassroots movement like the 19th century Persian Bahai faith, which also had all the answers for humanity, was taken over by them with an attempt to turn it into a top-down organization.
The same reason that Gurdjieff groups all over the world were taken over and became torture chambers instead of allowing growth to occur at an individual's own rate.

But for every new sprout that springs from the tree of life that they cut off, two new ones emerge. Yay!
It's now too late. Their time is up.

Baha'u'llah wrote a prophecy over 150 years ago regarding these new energies, which are now clearly visible amongst members of this forum, in many of the Indigos, the Crystal Children, and anyone who turns their face towards Source in this age:

“He will, erelong, out of the Bosom of Power, draw forth the Hands of Ascendancy and Might—Hands who will arise to win victory for this Youth, and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly.
These Hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name, the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities, and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants. Such are the evidences of the might of God; how fearful, how vehement is His might!”

Bill Ryan
13th May 2013, 15:07
I’ll be straight with you Bill, while I will undertake to read the material you have presented with open mind and heart, I would ask you to concurrently consider whether you are a victim of residual programming with equally open mind and heart.



Residual programming from what?

I was never in the Church of Scientology. I am on their published Enemies List. (Take a look at p.113 of this document (http://projectavalon.net/The_Scientology_Enemies_List.pdf).)

That's a little like my asking whether you're a victim of residual programming from the yoga class, or the meditation group, you joined a few years ago, or residual programming from watching too many Project Camelot interviews.

:)

Strat
13th May 2013, 15:35
A while ago I was researching Scientology because I was just fascinated in its members. No group of people are inherently 'wrong', I'm sure somewhere out there is a Scientologist you can share dinner with and trust they are a well grounded individual. It does seem though, that the Scientologist organization has mastered harassment at the highest level I'm aware of. Example A:

JM2SanSKk9c

Example B. No need to watch the whole video, click at about the 8:36 mark. This video is like a scene out of 'They Live.' What strikes me as odd (other than the harassment) are the 'characters' here. It looks like they got dressed up for a play. Everyone's roll is clear as day. You don't have too 'read' anyone. I'm not sure if you guys know what I'm saying, but it's just extremely odd to me:

AssNIRtAz7k

If you keep digging about Scientology you'll find a lot of videos that are taken down. It's incredible.

Now, all that being said, I do believe there is something to the auditing process. You can find the blueprints for free online to the auditing device. I looked it up a while ago, but if I remember correctly, it's basically a rudimentary bio feedback device. One has to be instructed on how to use it properly, but it doesn't appear to be rocket science as a lot of biofeedback is similar.

I have a biofeedback device that I use at home and it's incredible. Borderline unbelievable. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's a big draw for new members; they really are getting passed things that would hold them down in life. You don't have to take any drugs or anything, just go through a real process of drawing out the bs that holds you down in life.

Hopefully I'm not too offtopic, kinda on the run today and wanted to throw in my .02

RMorgan
13th May 2013, 17:18
Hey folks,

Here´s a very good nine minutes lecture/performance from L.R.Hubbard's great grandson, Jamie DeWolf. This one is a must watch:

ciupsqkLLkQ

Jamie is an active participant in anti-Scientology movements, and he obviously doesn´t have many good things to say about his great grandfather.

Raf.

ADD:

Another interview:

fbPzvaSDodU

Bill Ryan
13th May 2013, 18:36
Jamie is an active participant in anti-Scientology movements, and he obviously doesn´t have many good things to say about his great grandfather.



If LRH was a family relative of mine, I might have some criticisms of him as well. I'm sure he was really hard to live with, for a large number of reasons. Tesla, Einstein and Royal Rife were probably equally difficult. :)

But his work is a huge legacy of brilliance, and proper application of his techniques (note: proper application!) can yield transformational results, along with the occasional genuine miracle. That's more important than what his great-grandson thought of him.

RMorgan
13th May 2013, 18:53
Jamie is an active participant in anti-Scientology movements, and he obviously doesn´t have many good things to say about his great grandfather.



If LRH was a family relative of mine, I might have some criticisms of him as well. I'm sure he was really hard to live with, for a large number of reasons. Tesla, Einstein and Royal Rife were probably equally difficult. :)

But his work is a huge legacy of brilliance, and proper application of his techniques (note: proper application!) can yield transformational results, along with the occasional genuine miracle. That's more important than what his great-grandson thought of him.

Hey Bill,

Well, his great grandson depicts him as "the father of all conmen", as a cult leader who enslaved thousands of people, so I wouldn´t exactly call it "some criticism"...And he´s not the only one who accuses L.R.Hubbard of charlatanism; I´m sure you know that, though.

Changing a family´s last name is not the result of "some criticism" as well, if you ask me...I can think of a few reasons which would force a family to do that; all of them very serious, mostly connected either to shame or fear.

Honestly, even charlatans can encourage people to experience life changing experiences (Watch the Kumare (http://kumaremovie.com/) movie for a perfect example of that); We all know how the mind can be powerful regarding self-suggestion, including placebo techniques. However, it doesn´t make a charlatan any better or brighter.

Well, I´ll keep it short...I really don´t want to get involved in this discussion any further...

Unbelievable; That´s all I can say. Seeing a scientologist preaching his nonsense around here is...well...surprising? And seeing you and the mods supporting it is something I didn´t expect at all. I thought you knew better than that...

Raf.

Eram
13th May 2013, 19:42
Our actions and realizations are either ego based (that which doesn't understand it's relation with source), or true self (god, higher self, soul, source etc) based.

We either program ourselves (ego) or we create ourselves (true self).

Every attempt to better ourselves trough programming is putting layers over layers of ego.

NLP, Hypnotherapy, the Secret, Celestine prophecy... you name it.... it is all a programming tool to make for a better life, but when the old program is simply overwritten en not resolved through actual healing.... you are only making the union bigger and it doesn't matter how much you convinced yourself to have bettered.

dianetics?..... well... you can figure it out for yourself :)

Strat
13th May 2013, 19:46
Honestly, even charlatans can encourage people to experience life changing experiences (Watch the Kumare (http://kumaremovie.com/) movie for a perfect example of that); We all know how the mind can be powerful regarding self-suggestion. However, it doesn´t make a charlatan any better.


Phenomenal documentary! I've watched it on Netflix like 100 times. It's an excellent look at the human psyche and how some people are looking for the 'answer' and assigning it (the answer) accordingly.

Also, if I ever meet that gal in the doc that had the red hair and was a yoga instructor....marriage on site. That's exactly what I'm looking for in a girl: borderline hippy, deep thinker and yoga instructor.

Maunagarjana
13th May 2013, 20:25
I don't think anyone on this forum is going to argue with you on that subject music.

And anyone who has experienced the beneficial results of the original LRH tech will tell you that the tech and the church are two totally different things.


Yes, they're two very different things.

An analogy would be the vast repertoire of tools and techniques used by honest and skilled mechanics to repair the engine of your car... vs. the dishonest and crooked mechanic who takes your car in, charges you a fortune, and then doesn't really fix it at all so that you keep on having to come back for more expensive repairs. And meanwhile, the car never runs right after that again at all.

The problem is the unethical mechanic. Not the tools.

Thank you for not referring to it as "the tech". The lingo of Scientology to me is like nails on a chalkboard.

Maunagarjana
13th May 2013, 20:33
I find it interesting what Bashar has to say about the Church of Scientology, that it an organization for and by Orion starseeds. (That's something that would not have occurred to me, lol) Mind you that Darryl Anka is a former Scientologist.

https://whenandnow.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/scientology-and-bashar/

music
13th May 2013, 21:13
Hi Bill, I assume Ron's org uses the same techniques as main branch Scientology, and if we allow for the time being that it is the programming itself that has bugs, then this is what I would be referring to as residual programming.

I'm afraid that the letter and interview of one person claiming that Scientology was infiltrated, and all the claims of abuse are dis-info is just one voice amongst many, but so far the only voice I have read that claims this. Other voices we have already heard. Is there any more than this? Or do I believe that instead of abusing children, Hubbard was actually abused and imprisoned by a bunch of 5 - 7 year old mind controlled CIA kids, just on the say so of one "former" member?

Has it never occurred to anyone that Dane Tops is the dis-info and damage control agent?

So, for now, I will say I remain unconvinced, but please, I would be glad to read something other than "it was the CIA/Illuminati" testimony of one person - this is a very easy thing to say, and a apparently a very easy one to believe.

I will download the mp3 interview and listen to it later. I am not one who bows at the feet of the BBC though, I have seen proof of them manipuling truth to serve gov't agenda during the Miner's strike in Thatcher's Britain. It would be good if it contains an interview with Tops so I can hear his voice. I will download video of him too discussing the matter, as the facial cues and body language of a person often tell us much.

InCiDeR
13th May 2013, 21:35
(...)Watch the Kumare (http://kumaremovie.com/) movie for a perfect example of that); We all know how the mind can be powerful regarding self-suggestion. However, it doesn´t make a charlatan any better or brighter.(...)
Raf.

If you curious about Kumare, you can find it here (http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/8173307/Kumare.2011.LIMITED.DVDRip.XviD-GECKOS)

You might also need this (http://www.utorrent.com/)

eaglespirit
13th May 2013, 21:43
It is completely baffling to me why you are still "labeling" Jim, a scientologist. He is an ol' cowboy from Utah. He is not embedded in the religion. He simply went to work years ago, in his own way, and simply put to personal use what his research brought forth for him.

The reason I am personally adamant about this is because it resonates so strongly with me and my "Spirit" happenings on that Native American Hill in Massachusetts in January of 2007. I have experienced ALL of this to one degree or another in one form or another from an entirely different venue, that, well...is probably ALL the same at another level of existence and vibration.

I have been calling the connection our higher family and friends....it was so pure and uplifting...and I considered it nothing but a gift and changed my whole direction of life pursuit because of it.

Can the benefit of the doubt be put into practice here on this forum for "independent" cases like this once and fo all?

Why must it be pigeon-holed?

We really are above and beyond all of this and we really are at a crossroads where more and more people are literally stepping into their own higher powers.

The good that comes of this is the good that each of us does with it.

If you do not want to do anything with it then don't...it is that simple.

Change things for the better any way you know and want...but let Jim's visit here play itself out for the highest good.

imho...there have been a number of happenings that have shut things down like this here before.

Let's help each other help each other connect to our own higher family and friends or whatever it is to you and powerfully spiritually change things...the more of us doing this actively through this forum connection the more intensely good and wonderful the higher metamorphosis on the planet.

And if simply taking a walk in nature is your way to do it, do it...but stop yanking people's hearts out here that are genuinely trying to help and also clear things up. We really are above all this

It's obvious that Jim's hard work means something here...let it be and go on about bettering the world your own ways.

See You Onward Upward and Beyond : )

And I Do Love You All!

Fred Steeves
13th May 2013, 22:04
Has it never occurred to anyone that Dane Tops is the dis-info and damage control agent?


The Church Of Scientology is chock full of drama, as is their "Free Zone" break aways, and the ever ongoing struggle between the two. As is also a forum, our lives, etc., etc.. There are good and bad people on forums, in our lives, and in all of Scientology's facets. The trick is as always IMO, do we allow ourselves to become immersed in the drama (we all do it to varying extents), or are we able to take gradual steps back from it, getting clearer and clearer perspectives as we do so?

Sure Scientology is guilty of much abuse, as is practically every other group or religion on this dark planet. Sometimes though we can find "friends" in the most unlikely of places, as well as "foes". And sometimes...More so lately...I tend to think the two may be one in the same, just with vastly different ways of expression.

When we REALLY get down to the nitty gritty of things, what are we doing when we choose sides in a fight? Or when we declare "you are evil, and you are good?" Isn't that war???

Honestly music, I can't quite wrap my head around that one. Not yet anyway. It dogs me, even psyches me out a bit from time to time, but I'm driven to keep asking myself that question. And you know why? Because some little Gremlin in the back of my mind keeps whispering: "Maybe, just maybe, searching for an answer to that question is the only way out of this".

Bill Ryan
13th May 2013, 22:12
Hi Bill, I assume Ron's org uses the same techniques as main branch Scientology, and if we allow for the time being that it is the programming itself that has bugs, then this is what I would be referring to as residual programming.

I'm afraid that the letter and interview of one person claiming that Scientology was infiltrated, and all the claims of abuse are dis-info is just one voice amongst many, but so far the only voice I have read that claims this. Other voices we have already heard. Is there any more than this? Or do I believe that instead of abusing children, Hubbard was actually abused and imprisoned by a bunch of 5 - 7 year old mind controlled CIA kids, just on the say so of one "former" member?

Has it never occurred to anyone that Dane Tops is the dis-info and damage control agent?

So, for now, I will say I remain unconvinced, but please, I would be glad to read something other than "it was the CIA/Illuminati" testimony of one person - this is a very easy thing to say, and a apparently a very easy one to believe.

I will download the mp3 interview and listen to it later. I am not one who bows at the feet of the BBC though, I have seen proof of them manipuling truth to serve gov't agenda during the Miner's strike in Thatcher's Britain. It would be good if it contains an interview with Tops so I can hear his voice. I will download video of him too discussing the matter, as the facial cues and body language of a person often tell us much.

Dane Tops (not his real name) will never go on video or audio -- the 'Church' has already spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless man-hours looking for him for the last 30 years. That tells you plenty.

:)

If you really do feel in doubt about whether Dane Tops may be a 'disinfo agent', then (apologies: I can't say it in any other way) -- Boy, are you confused! You stand a risk of joining the ranks of those who claim that David Icke and I are paid by the CIA.

I am not saying this about you at all, but the point is this: with no effective moral or intellectual map or compass to guide someone, they may eventually end up believing anything -- and are then the #1 sitting ducks for propaganda.

thunder24
13th May 2013, 22:19
Dane Tops (not his real name) will never go on video or audio -- the 'Church' has already spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless man-hours looking for him for the last 30 years. That tells you plenty.

:)

If you really do feel in doubt about whether Dane Tops may be a 'disinfo agent', then (apologies: I can't say it in any other way) -- Boy, are you confused! You stand a risk of joining the ranks of those who claim that David Icke and I are paid by the CIA.

I am not saying this about you at all, but the point is this: with no effective moral or intellectual map or compass to guide someone, they may eventually end up believing anything -- and are then the #1 sitting ducks for propaganda.



hhhhhmmmmmm.......brings back memories of charles this quote does...

Bill Ryan
13th May 2013, 22:28
Jamie is an active participant in anti-Scientology movements, and he obviously doesn´t have many good things to say about his great grandfather.



If LRH was a family relative of mine, I might have some criticisms of him as well. I'm sure he was really hard to live with, for a large number of reasons. Tesla, Einstein and Royal Rife were probably equally difficult. :)

But his work is a huge legacy of brilliance, and proper application of his techniques (note: proper application!) can yield transformational results, along with the occasional genuine miracle. That's more important than what his great-grandson thought of him.

Hey Bill,

Well, his great grandson depicts him as "the father of all conmen", as a cult leader who enslaved thousands of people, so I wouldn´t exactly call it "some criticism"...And he´s not the only one who accuses L.R.Hubbard of charlatanism; I´m sure you know that, though.

Changing a family´s last name is not the result of "some criticism" as well, if you ask me...I can think of a few reasons which would force a family to do that; all of them very serious, mostly connected either to shame or fear.

Honestly, even charlatans can encourage people to experience life changing experiences (Watch the Kumare (http://kumaremovie.com/) movie for a perfect example of that); We all know how the mind can be powerful regarding self-suggestion, including placebo techniques. However, it doesn´t make a charlatan any better or brighter.

Well, I´ll keep it short...I really don´t want to get involved in this discussion any further...

Unbelievable; That´s all I can say. Seeing a scientologist preaching his nonsense around here is...well...surprising? And seeing you and the mods supporting it is something I didn´t expect at all. I thought you knew better than that...

Raf.

Hi there, Raf: not 'supporting' it. Some of what Jim (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?16940-jiminii) writes I barely understand. :)

Just (see my posts) adding some points of clarification and -- importantly -- personal experience. That is where I come from. I never knew LRH (before my time, and I was never in the 'Church' anyway) -- but I did know CBR (Bill Robertson). I know what CBR stood for, and have gained a huge amount from the processes he researched and developed, all founded solidly on LRH basic precepts and axioms.

LRH was no doubt many things; but his techniques work, and work extraordinarily well, sometimes miraculously -- when properly applied. Don't confuse the corrupt mechanics in the Mafia-run shop with the vast array of the tools and work manuals that have all been developed to be used by humans as they wish.

The 'as they wish' part is important. A scalpel and anesthetics can be used for life-renewing open heart surgery -- or to kill someone. The scalpel has no say in the way it is used, as it's only a tool. As you will certainly understand, being a student of science (and a very good one, too!), scientific development can be used in every way imaginable, from one end of the moral spectrum to the other.

Sidney
13th May 2013, 23:03
When the LRH thread started, the first thing I thought of was the CHarles thing. Of course we are going to be gun shy about someone making claims like being the second coming of BUddah. Probably a lot of folks will think he is FOS. I personally do not know anything about Buddah, but I have seen the Dane Tops interview some time ago, and I felt he was telling the truth. Do I think Jimini is Buddah returned? I have no idea, and it does not matter to me if he is or isn't. There has been plenty of conversations here at avalon about all of us having past lives, of which we have no clue who we were, or how many lifetimes we have actually experienced throughout the centuries. I might have been ISIS or even HORUS, or a house cat : ) Apparently there are ways to find out if and who and when, regardless if it was in the past,future, or in the now(other dimensions), its just that many of us have not been privy to accessing this information, and I believe the works of LRH is important, and could possibly help us access the esoteric sides of life that we have not been able to experience before, and gain more knowledge that has been hidden from us. Honestly I never heard of LRH before Jimini started the thread, and its nice to have another angle of our history to look at. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that LRH ego got the best of him and he was not quite as enlightened as people once thought he was because of this. As far as the abuse in Scientology, IMO, is a separate issue al ltogether. The work of LRH is seperate from the man. And LRH is not the whole of scientology. I do believe it was taken over by the cabal, mainly because it makes sense that they would. Is there proof? Maybe , maybe not..If there is will it be found? Probably not. This is my viewpoint anyway, and just another back road on the journey.

Bill Ryan
13th May 2013, 23:29
As far as the abuse in Scientology, IMO, is a separate issue al ltogether. The work of LRH is seperate from the man.

Yes, it is. For me personally, I'm aware that the idea of LRH being the 'Maitreya' has been discussed before and elsewhere, but it feels quite irrelevant. If he was a reincarnation of the Buddha (or of anyone!), but his techniques didn't actually work, then we'd just be left with a belief system... which is not what this is about.

I don't want an impressive figurehead who offers useless tools. I want good tools, and it doesn't matter who comes up with them. This is not some kind of superstar competition. For me, it's about pragmatics.


And LRH is not the whole of scientology. I do believe it was taken over by the cabal, mainly because it makes sense that they would. Is there proof? Maybe , maybe not..If there is will it be found? Probably not.

Actually, there's plenty of proof, from witnesses (and there are many of them), and from data-trailing and dot-connecting all the evidence, and from looking at how the techniques have been changed so that they no longer work properly in the hands of 'Church' auditors (and they have).

And (this is a quite different area) -- how the 'Church' uses their variant of 'black magic' (a covert, unethical misapplication of what should be spiritual therapeutic techniques) to target and harm their enemies. Look this up.. it's called 'Black NOTs'. This is a reality. I've been targeted myself, many times.

But this is a specialist job, to track all that down and document it. It's rather like trying to show someone who knows little about the current takeover of the planet that there's been a coup on Planet Earth. If you know (as most readers of this post do!), then it's 'obvious'... but if you don't know, it takes a lot of patient laying out. The analogy between the two, though, is close.

norman
14th May 2013, 01:23
I don't want an impressive figurehead who offers useless tools. I want good tools, and it doesn't matter who comes up with them. This is not some kind of superstar competition. For me, it's about pragmatics.




prag·ma·tism (prhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifghttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-thttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifm)n.1. Philosophy A movement consisting of varying but associated theories, originally developed by Charles S. Peirce and William James and distinguished by the doctrine that the meaning of an idea or a proposition lies in its observable practical consequences.


And each person's situation is a unique position to assess such a practical concequense.

In reality, pragmatism isn't something we can broadcast as a "movement" or a social remedy. As we invest more into broadcast 'pragmatism', we invest more in 'collateral' personal losses.

In my own view, that is beginning to step down the path that is already trodden by the very merciless crooks we oppose. (.... ? .... )

Sidney
14th May 2013, 04:11
As far as the abuse in Scientology, IMO, is a separate issue al ltogether. The work of LRH is seperate from the man.

Yes, it is. For me personally, I'm aware that the idea of LRH being the 'Maitreya' has been discussed before and elsewhere, but it feels quite irrelevant. If he was a reincarnation of the Buddha (or of anyone!), but his techniques didn't actually work, then we'd just be left with a belief system... which is not what this is about.

I don't want an impressive figurehead who offers useless tools. I want good tools, and it doesn't matter who comes up with them. This is not some kind of superstar competition. For me, it's about pragmatics.


And LRH is not the whole of scientology. I do believe it was taken over by the cabal, mainly because it makes sense that they would. Is there proof? Maybe , maybe not..If there is will it be found? Probably not.

Actually, there's plenty of proof, from witnesses (and there are many of them), and from data-trailing and dot-connecting all the evidence, and from looking at how the techniques have been changed so that they no longer work properly in the hands of 'Church' auditors (and they have).

And (this is a quite different area) -- how the 'Church' uses their variant of 'black magic' (a covert, unethical misapplication of what should be spiritual therapeutic techniques) to target and harm their enemies. Look this up.. it's called 'Black NOTs'. This is a reality. I've been targeted myself, many times.

But this is a specialist job, to track all that down and document it. It's rather like trying to show someone who knows little about the current takeover of the planet that there's been a coup on Planet Earth. If you know (as most readers of this post do!), then it's 'obvious'... but if you don't know, it takes a lot of patient laying out. The analogy between the two, though, is close.

Well that is GREAT! I was just speculating as I am a total illiterate on this subject matter. If theres proof, then the cabal is obviously aware of this and have their tail between their legs. Things are moving along faster than I realized. YAY:dance:

music
14th May 2013, 12:05
Hi Bill, I assume Ron's org uses the same techniques as main branch Scientology, and if we allow for the time being that it is the programming itself that has bugs, then this is what I would be referring to as residual programming.

I'm afraid that the letter and interview of one person claiming that Scientology was infiltrated, and all the claims of abuse are dis-info is just one voice amongst many, but so far the only voice I have read that claims this. Other voices we have already heard. Is there any more than this? Or do I believe that instead of abusing children, Hubbard was actually abused and imprisoned by a bunch of 5 - 7 year old mind controlled CIA kids, just on the say so of one "former" member?

Has it never occurred to anyone that Dane Tops is the dis-info and damage control agent?

So, for now, I will say I remain unconvinced, but please, I would be glad to read something other than "it was the CIA/Illuminati" testimony of one person - this is a very easy thing to say, and a apparently a very easy one to believe.

I will download the mp3 interview and listen to it later. I am not one who bows at the feet of the BBC though, I have seen proof of them manipuling truth to serve gov't agenda during the Miner's strike in Thatcher's Britain. It would be good if it contains an interview with Tops so I can hear his voice. I will download video of him too discussing the matter, as the facial cues and body language of a person often tell us much.

Dane Tops (not his real name) will never go on video or audio -- the 'Church' has already spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless man-hours looking for him for the last 30 years. That tells you plenty.

:)

If you really do feel in doubt about whether Dane Tops may be a 'disinfo agent', then (apologies: I can't say it in any other way) -- Boy, are you confused! You stand a risk of joining the ranks of those who claim that David Icke and I are paid by the CIA.

I am not saying this about you at all, but the point is this: with no effective moral or intellectual map or compass to guide someone, they may eventually end up believing anything -- and are then the #1 sitting ducks for propaganda.

In an earlier post, Bill, I say ...

... I find you a likable person

and then ...

I am no better than you, Bill, I am no better than the Christ Consciousness, I am no better than Hubbard or Hitler, yet I love every single being with my high heart equally. I don’t like Hubbard or Hitler (based on my current understanding and energetic reading of these entites), but I don’t have to. To me, “dislike” means “I love you, but I see the things that you do are not conducive to the greater common good”, and part of my role is to see this.

I can't make it any clearer than that - this is not a personal crusade against anyone, merely my attempt to discern truth. I have a very fine intellectual and spiritual map and compass, thank you very much, but like all travellers, it is true, sometime I get lost. Though I fail to see how wanting more to go on than just Dane Tops (not his real name), who won't expose either his voice or image as he makes his claims. Sure, I understand that if he is on the level, there is good reason for that, but I remain unconvinced. I would be a fool to base a vision of truth on that.

Allow me to quote Dane Tops (who I suspect is XXXX - edit: on second thoughts I decided to remove the name)

But, instead, it was heavily attacked and he was attacked, and it was finally taken down through children. And I believe those children themselves were part of a psychic program, because those children were given jobs in the organization to run the adults.

They were called “The Messenger Org”. They never went to real school. They were like five, six, seven years old. They were his servants and the only people who could get close to him. ...

(Kerry Cassidy: Did they go on the boat? How many children, and did they go on the boat with him?)

Yeah, they were the only ones who had access to Ron. The adults couldn’t even get to him, only the children could. And it’s the children who took over the organization.



Now I am not saying that the notion below is the truth either, but it is just one of many voices, though I'm sure I can be made to look foolish for leaning toward these unsubstantiated claims, rather than Dane Tops' unsubstantiated claims


But some ex-Scientologists have less regard for the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard. One of them is Aaron Saxton, a New Zealander who spent eight years — from his mid-teens through his early 20s — as part of Scientology’s elite paramilitary corps, Sea Org. Read on to learn his thoughts on Independent Scientologists, Sea Org, violence, coerced abortion, rape, false imprisonment, and the many other delights allegedly awaiting those who take seriously L. Ron Hubbard’s declaration that “your search is over, but the adventure has just begun.”

In my defence, these claims seem more plausible to me than the claims that a gang of 5-7 year old psychically trained children fundamentally imprisoned and isolated Hubbard to discredit his mission to save all us scum here on the prison planet.

Whenever there is a long litany of child abuse to consider, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a little something more to go than what you have provided thus far. Otherwise I might just be a #1 sitting duck for propaganda.

But, this will just become circular. If you have nothing else to bring to the table, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree, and my involvement with this thread will cease.

music
14th May 2013, 12:11
Has it never occurred to anyone that Dane Tops is the dis-info and damage control agent?


The Church Of Scientology is chock full of drama, as is their "Free Zone" break aways, and the ever ongoing struggle between the two. As is also a forum, our lives, etc., etc.. There are good and bad people on forums, in our lives, and in all of Scientology's facets. The trick is as always IMO, do we allow ourselves to become immersed in the drama (we all do it to varying extents), or are we able to take gradual steps back from it, getting clearer and clearer perspectives as we do so?

Sure Scientology is guilty of much abuse, as is practically every other group or religion on this dark planet. Sometimes though we can find "friends" in the most unlikely of places, as well as "foes". And sometimes...More so lately...I tend to think the two may be one in the same, just with vastly different ways of expression.

When we REALLY get down to the nitty gritty of things, what are we doing when we choose sides in a fight? Or when we declare "you are evil, and you are good?" Isn't that war???

Honestly music, I can't quite wrap my head around that one. Not yet anyway. It dogs me, even psyches me out a bit from time to time, but I'm driven to keep asking myself that question. And you know why? Because some little Gremlin in the back of my mind keeps whispering: "Maybe, just maybe, searching for an answer to that question is the only way out of this".

The voice of reason, as always Fred. And I often act from the head before putting my hand on my heart. You are right, it achieves nothing, and we would all be better placed reading enfoldedblue's latest thread than expending energy here perpetuating de-vision.

music
15th May 2013, 10:11
It is completely baffling to me why you are still "labeling" Jim, a scientologist. He is an ol' cowboy from Utah. He is not embedded in the religion. He simply went to work years ago, in his own way, and simply put to personal use what his research brought forth for him.

The reason I am personally adamant about this is because it resonates so strongly with me and my "Spirit" happenings on that Native American Hill in Massachusetts in January of 2007. I have experienced ALL of this to one degree or another in one form or another from an entirely different venue, that, well...is probably ALL the same at another level of existence and vibration.

I have been calling the connection our higher family and friends....it was so pure and uplifting...and I considered it nothing but a gift and changed my whole direction of life pursuit because of it.

Can the benefit of the doubt be put into practice here on this forum for "independent" cases like this once and fo all?

Why must it be pigeon-holed?

We really are above and beyond all of this and we really are at a crossroads where more and more people are literally stepping into their own higher powers.

The good that comes of this is the good that each of us does with it.

If you do not want to do anything with it then don't...it is that simple.

Change things for the better any way you know and want...but let Jim's visit here play itself out for the highest good.

imho...there have been a number of happenings that have shut things down like this here before.

Let's help each other help each other connect to our own higher family and friends or whatever it is to you and powerfully spiritually change things...the more of us doing this actively through this forum connection the more intensely good and wonderful the higher metamorphosis on the planet.

And if simply taking a walk in nature is your way to do it, do it...but stop yanking people's hearts out here that are genuinely trying to help and also clear things up. We really are above all this

It's obvious that Jim's hard work means something here...let it be and go on about bettering the world your own ways.

See You Onward Upward and Beyond : )

And I Do Love You All!

I'm sorry, I missed this gem from you. All I have to say to you my friend is "I see you" and you know what I mean by that.

eaglespirit
15th May 2013, 12:57
I'm sorry, I missed this gem from you. All I have to say to you my friend is "I see you" and you know what I mean by that.

Love to You, Music...and wishing you well : )

We are gong to experience an 'immaculate resolve' of the highest kind for children everywhere , imho : )

Bryston
15th May 2013, 13:52
It's dead...Good

Bryston
15th May 2013, 13:58
A bottom feeding leach pretending to be human. Nothing more.

RMorgan
15th May 2013, 14:08
Hey Bryston,

None of your attachments are working mate.

Raf.

Bryston
15th May 2013, 14:11
thanks RMorgan

InCiDeR
15th May 2013, 14:12
Still not working!!! :)

Bryston
15th May 2013, 14:27
Thanks InCiDer

They were just standard pictures of the vile tick itself in various promotional poses. Talking to tomatoes, holding E-meters, and the like. Nothing major.

Borden
15th May 2013, 14:42
'Dianetics' seemed pretty interesting. I admit I only skimmed it. That thing Hubbard allegedly did in the desert with Parsons (?) sounded pretty dodgy. I was once approached by a Scientologist on a street, and his manner with me almost made me knock him out. Tom Cruise seems like a very nice chap. John Travolta is in my opinion highly over-rated as an actor (but he was great in Grease). That Scientologist the BBC guy did a documentary about was so appalling that I wasn't sure hanging, drawing, quartering him and putting his remains (salted) to the four corners of the earth would have even shut him up satisfactorily. I don't really believe the bit about the guy being chained to an asteroid for a million years. Or something.

Tom Cruise really does seem like a splendid fellow though.

Fair and balanced.

Bryston
15th May 2013, 14:59
I agree with major elements of what you say Borden. But when it comes to this kind of insanity my generosity of spirit will not extend to complete fairness, and balance. These people who follow Scientology are supportive to the point of mindless complacency. As are the other major religious institutional memebers on this planet. Enough is enough, its time we stopped feeding these cruel groups.

How?
I haven't got a clue, but I know sickness when I see it.

:cool:

Borden
15th May 2013, 15:14
Oh God, man ... don't tell me my irreverence is irrelevant or I might experience a dark apotheosis and enslave you all under the banner of the new global age of Borden! It would be darkly comic. The military uniforms would be great though, trust me.

I don't know enough about Scientology to really have a fair and balanced opinion ... I was being silly. I do however agree with you fully about the other organised religions. Enslavers and liars. As for Scientology, I've been of the opinion that since I don't know that much about it, maybe I shouldn't judge it by some of the rabid, unpleasant practitioners I've seen. Because, and I'm honestly not being sarcastic here ... Tom Cruise seems so bloody nice! Do you think he would have been a good bloke whatever religion he'd chosen? Maybe.

As for how we rid ourselves of these cruel groups ... I'm of the opinion that we can't. You can lead a horse to water, etc. YOU can rid your mind of that level of cruelty and horror, sure, and I can too ... but those who buy it have bought it. It's up to them to un-buy it. If they can't, then they present themselves to devolution or natural selection. What can you do?

By the way, I just wanted to let you know that as a child I lived in Harpenden, where Eric Morecambe lived. Just a few weeks before he died I saw him in town test driving a new car. Ah well, I'm sure the irony didn't escape him on the other side.

p.s I'm pretty sure it was a Jag

Bryston
15th May 2013, 15:50
Thanks Borden for correcting my over emotive tone in reaction to your post. I can't see how my words intimate your irreverence's irrelevance. Truth is I don't have intimate experience of scientology myself. There does appear to be a high correlation on the inter-web between various groupings of belief, and less than beneficial behavior. Also I think your dark epotheosis would have a uniquley thanatoptic irony, and I would gladly wear high heeled jack boots in the name of Bordianity. I can see Alan Sugar being force fed mint tulips to the point of desperation, live on national television. For crimes against facial hair, and the social order.

As to how we rid ourselves of these cruel groups. I agree it doesn't look like we'll grow out of it any time soon. Maybe your right, maybe they are submitting themselves to some sort of devotional or natural selection.

Maybe some sort of stratified reclassification of humanity is required. Thus enabling a healthier appropriation of human resources to various tasks.

As for Tom cruise being a nice bloke in-spite of his religion. No information on it besides the feeling of annoyance he brings to me as a performer, so fair play.

Praise Be to the All Mighty Morecambe

Borden
15th May 2013, 16:03
Right, vis a vis the Tom Cruise issue, that's the only thing I really disagree with you on. The only circumstances under which I can see him becoming tiresome involve him being my butler, and insisting on high-fiving me at six am every morning. Other than that I'm sure he is a lovely.

On the Alan Sugar issue, I don't think you have thought it through well enough. He seems to go out of his way to make himself look like an angry testicle, and on a man whose psychological short-comings make thin air look obfuscatory and oblique this is clearly a move designed to showcase his quintessential emptiness and horribleness to best effect. Surely we can come up with a more horrible punishment.

If you would like to start a religion with me I am sure we would have much common ground. We will definitely give Morecambe avatar status.

p.s. You made me look up 'thanatoptic', you bastard. And I'm still none the wiser.

Bryston
15th May 2013, 17:34
If you would like to start a religion with me I am sure we would have much common ground. We will definitely give Morecambe avatar status.



It would be a great personal honour to be the first documented disciple in the anals of a Bordianity faith based organisation.

May I suggest a deep meditative form of devotional iconoclasm. Proactively seeking the complete physical, and metaphysical destruction of any organisation, person, or idea through the mechanism of acidically ironic public displays of socially networked worship.

And low the Book of Borden entered the hearts of all those who had the correct configuration of reptilian DNA, and superannuated long term guilt edged securities.

Borden
15th May 2013, 17:46
I pray to Jabulon that you mean 'annals'.

I will see your Morecambe and raise you a Barker. Let the geniuses fight it out.

And I am a Nordic, so I'm not sure about the whole reptilian thing. We may have to give some episcological leeway. Don't worry, the uniforms will be great.

Otherwise ... perfect. Let's milk the mammals!

Padmé
15th May 2013, 17:47
Tom Cruise seems like a very nice chap.

Tom Cruise really does seem like a splendid fellow though.

Fair and balanced.

Borden, you know, on the whole I tend to agree with a lot of things you say... but today you've taken the biscuit!!! Tom Cruise is a total n*b!!!!

onawah
15th May 2013, 17:47
It looks like this thread is sufficiently off-topic that the irrelevancy of my post won't make a lot of difference one way or the other.

Re Tom Cruise, who is perhaps not quite as nice a chap as some may think:
9dMhCdDPQ-w

And who may even be a tad weird, as this fellow implies...
L5Zv3X_Hlck

But to help everyone decide for themselves, here's Tom on Graham Norton's show:
D_a2WmEepI4
There's a discussion of Tom's manners by the viewers of that Youtube page, who I suspect must be British--manners, of course, being a major concern of the Brits.

And may I say that the polite manner in which Borden and Bryston have conducted their discussion on a controversial subject may be taken as a wonderful example to all forum members ...:tea: :lol:

(Welcome back to Borden, BTW)
Am I sensing there may be a new Borden thread in store for us?
With another British wit for him to engage with now, :meeting: I look forward to the possibility. :dance:

Bryston
15th May 2013, 19:33
I pray to Jabulon that you mean 'annals'.!

Forgive my instinctual stimulation of your graces recidivist Barkonion tendencies. It is my belief the use of effective chronological analising will ensure a secure incorruptible timeless message . After all even the mighty followers of Cathol have embarrassed the information age.

May I suggest an immediate research program into adapted E-meter stem cell trouser lip transmission. All funding will of course be sourced from the newly opened Robert Runcie clearing house, and file sharing facility in Zurich.

Research outcomes not withstanding, I believe an effective program of genital biometrics is essential in these formative stages.

Abstinence, Intolerance, and Onanistic Clairvoyance should be the guiding principals of all the faithful.

Lisab
15th May 2013, 19:34
Borden..Tom Cruise? Really?!!! I'm glad your back.

Tangri
15th May 2013, 23:31
Jamie is an active participant in anti-Scientology movements, and he obviously doesn´t have many good things to say about his great grandfather.



If LRH was a family relative of mine, I might have some criticisms of him as well. I'm sure he was really hard to live with, for a large number of reasons. Tesla, Einstein and Royal Rife were probably equally difficult. :)

But his work is a huge legacy of brilliance, and proper application of his techniques (note: proper application!) can yield transformational results, along with the occasional genuine miracle. That's more important than what his great-grandson thought of him.

Hey Bill,

Well, his great grandson depicts him as "the father of all conmen", as a cult leader who enslaved thousands of people, so I wouldn´t exactly call it "some criticism"...And he´s not the only one who accuses L.R.Hubbard of charlatanism; I´m sure you know that, though.

Changing a family´s last name is not the result of "some criticism" as well, if you ask me...I can think of a few reasons which would force a family to do that; all of them very serious, mostly connected either to shame or fear.

Honestly, even charlatans can encourage people to experience life changing experiences (Watch the Kumare (http://kumaremovie.com/) movie for a perfect example of that); We all know how the mind can be powerful regarding self-suggestion, including placebo techniques. However, it doesn´t make a charlatan any better or brighter.

Well, I´ll keep it short...I really don´t want to get involved in this discussion any further...

Unbelievable; That´s all I can say. Seeing a scientologist preaching his nonsense around here is...well...surprising? And seeing you and the mods supporting it is something I didn´t expect at all. I thought you knew better than that...

Raf.

Good view point of looking for sheep clothed wolf. Some wolfs understand sheep instinct then act accordingly.
Some wrong side woke ups use their early opened eyes to change the perception of rest for his own benefit.
If some one claim that he/she is awakened and ask for extra power to fight pre-assumed enemy be stay away from those because enemy within them already.

bruno dante
16th May 2013, 15:16
Seems appropo: (skip to 58 sec mark)
v800tymb5uM


p.s. Being from the states, I couldn't help but regard Cruise as my representative in this video (Onawah's video), and I'll admit here that I was quietly rooting for him...not to say anything particularly intelligent or funny, but to just not say anything too terribly embarrassing. If I could convince myself to believe he was being slightly ironic while claiming his house was large enough to accomodate that plaque, I would have awarded him a few points...but as it stands I think he was just answering it straight. When he shook Butler's hand and congratulated him on the porto potty dedication, I damn near orgasmed in relief - it was well played...for him anyway.

OHkBp5cKKh4

A little long, but worth it if you have the time:

HTmuVRCJmv0

InCiDeR
17th May 2013, 07:55
For the sake of balance in this spaceship Avalon, I felt following information was necessary:


Monica Pignotti an OT III and full-fledged Flag Class VI auditor speaks about Hubbards teachings:


By the time I discovered the truth about Scientology, it was too late; I was so indoctrinated at that point, it was unthinkable for me to ever conceive of leaving. Wanting to leave, I had been told, meant that I had crimes against the groups and thus, humanity.

If I left, I believed I would be doomed to a spiritual death and stay in the trap of the planet earth forever -- a fate I thought was worse than anything that could ever happen to me within the cult. I became an unwitting prisoner of a totalistic environment. I was a victim.
Source (http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/pignotti1.html)
Blaming the victim (http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/blaming-the-victim.htm)



My name is Monica Pignotti. I was involved in the Church of Scientology from December, 1970 to August, 1976. From on or about February, 1973 to August, 1976, I was a member of the Sea Organization, the elite inner-circle of Scientology.

From May 1973 to October 1975 I lived aboard the Flagship Apollo, which was the home of L. Ron Hubbard, his wife Mary Sue Hubbard and his four children. After leaving Flag in October 1975 when the ship was sold, I lived and worked on staff at the land base at the Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, Florida until May, 1976 when I was transferred to Los Angeles where I was on staff until I left in August, 1976.(...)

(...)I was unaware at the time that every time I did TR-O, I was going into a hypnotic trance state. I only realized this years later, after leaving the group, when I read about hypnosis and experienced a trance state from a legitimate psychologist who did hypnosis on me. The state I was in then was identical to the state I was in when I did TR-O.

TRs are done regularly and often by Scientologists on all levels. Pretty soon, for me, just walking into the courseroom induced a trance state in me. Hubbard claimed to be vehemently against hypnosis, but, nevertheless, this is what I experienced.

Being in this trance state made me extremely vulnerable to the material I was reading, which basically stated that Scientology is the only road to total freedom, that we were in a labyrinth as citizens of the planet earth and the only way out of this "trap" was through Scientology. A very dreary picture was being painted of the world outside of Scientology, which was referred to as the wog world.(...)
Source/read more (http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/pignotti19890929.html)



Mind Control Techniques -- The Early Months

(...)My father's intervention was unsuccessful because, even in the first few months, mind control techniques were being used on me that I wasn't aware of. Here are some of the methods of indoctrination that were being used on me.


Loaded Language

As a newcomer, I was introduced to a whole new language -- the "nomenclature of Scientology", as Hubbard liked to call it. Here are a few terms or phrases that I learned that were used to manipulate me and others:


"Q&A"

Defined as the failure to complete a cycle of action, which means a failure to finish something started. This was expanded to mean any questioning of an order given by someone senior to the person or any expression of disagreement. This was a device used to get people to follow orders given to them, no matter how ridiculous.

For example, students on the Class VIII auditor's course on Flag were ordered to throw their fellow students overboard for auditing errors. If anyone dared to question this order, by perhaps, pointing out that Hubbard had once said he did not believe in punishment, that person would be told, "Don't Q&A. Just do it." In addition, that person would also have been overboarded for his Q&A.

A person who Q&As is a person, in the eyes of a Scientologist, who questions the intentions of Hubbard. Anybody who Q&As with an order is thought to be a weak person who isn't capable of completing a "cycle of action." The fact that the order might be quite ridiculous or irrational is never considered.


"Make it go right"

is a phrase that is used in Scientology, ad nauseum. Hubbard had said that "The supreme test of a thetan is the ability to make things go right." (Thetan is the Scientology term for spirit.) This statement was used as an excuse and justification for throwing people into the most horrendous situations imaginable.

For example, in the Sea Org, a person could have all his privileges taken away, be stripped of his rank and thrown on the RPF and told by a senior, "Make it go right!" In the late 1960s, when Hubbard first created the Sea Org, people were assigned duties of seamanship that they had no training for or experience in, put into the middle of storms and told to "make it go right."


"Suppressive Person" or "SP"

An SP is a person who is against Scientology, especially someone who speaks out against Scientology or publicly criticizes it. Sometimes even Scientologists in high positions who were trying their best to be ideal Scientologists were declared SP, for some imagined transgression, at the whim of LRH.

If a person is in Scientology and then leaves, that person is automatically declared suppressive. SPs are barred from receiving auditing, taking Scientology courses or speaking to any Scientologist in good standing. To a Scientotogist, being declared SP is worse than a death sentence.


Hubbard wrote a bulletin called The Anti-Social Personality. This is must reading for any parent, friend or exit counsellor because it describes, in detail, what an SP is in the eyes of a Scientologist and anyone attempting an intervention would certainly be considered an SP. According to Hubbard, the SP has, at an earlier time (probably in a past life), committed a crime of great magnitude against humanity.

This caused other people to heavily attack him. The SP is "stuck" in that incident and is continually acting it out, lashing out at anyone who is doing good (the good, of course, being Scientology!. He goes on to say that an SP might appear to be a very sweet, kind person, but underneath this veneer, he/she is a wretched tortured soul who wants nothing but to destroy everyone around him. There is no hope or salvation for such a person.

The Scientologist in good standing is expected to "handle" or disconnect from any SP he/she happens to be connected with. In the case of someone who has left Scientology, the order is always to disconnect. There were times, in Scientology where children were made to disconnect from their parents if they got overly critical of Scientology and couldn't be "handled", but this practice was later discontinued because Hubbard said he had developed the "tech" to handle people who were connected to SPs. These people are known as "PTS", or Potential Trouble Sources, because of their connection to an SP. In actuality, I think this policy of disconnection from parents was discontinued because it created very bad PR for Scientology.


"Overts/Withholds" or "O/Ws"

With the O/W phenomenon, Hubbard brilliantly managed to incorporate three out of the eight criteria for mind control described by Robert J. Lifton that are used by cults. This is not only part of the loaded language of Scientology, but is also the main thought stopping technique used by Scientologists and makes use of the confessional as a way to control and manipulate people.

According to Hubbard, anyone who is critical of Scientology, a Scientologist in good standing, or wanting to leave Scientology has undisclosed "crimes" against it. An overt is any harmful act and a withhold is a failure to disclose that act.

Scientologists are taught, practically from day one that if they have any critical thoughts about Scientology they must then ask themselves, "What overts have I committed against Scientology?" If someone is being audited and voices to the auditor a critical thought, the auditor must immediately ask, "What have you done?" What eventually happens is that the person stops thinking critical thoughts. We were told, as auditors, to get actual deeds because a critical thought is only a symptom of an underlying crime.

Whenever a person wants to leave Scientology, the first action taken is to "pull their overts and withholds", meaning to get the person to disclose what harmful acts he has committed against the group and any other crimes the auditor can dig up. This is done by what is known as a security check, or "sec check", which is a series of questions designed to discover crimes.

This procedure, like all auditing, is done with the aid of an E-Meter, a device that is supposed to measure electrical charge around the person, which is supposed to indicate what is going on in a person's mind. For example, a person might be asked, "Have you ever stolen anything from the organization?" and the needle on the E-meter falls. This is supposed to indicate that something is going on in the person's mind with regard to that question. The person might answer, "I stole a pencil once." The question is then repeated and if the needle reacts again, the person is expected to tell more. The question is repeated until it is clean, meaning the needle no longer reacts.

In normal auditing, the auditor is expected to follow an auditor's code, which states that the auditor must not evaluate for the PC, invalidate him, or get angry with him in session. The code also states that the auditor must never reveal what a PC has said in session. This code is completely disregarded in a sec check and the auditor is expected to do whatever he has to to get the information.

Anyone who wants to leave Scientology and voices such a desire is subjected to hours, sometimes even days and weeks of sec checking to find out what "crimes" they have committed against Scientology. Evidence in recent court cases has been introduced that indicates that information people had revealed, not only in sec checks, but in regular auditing has been used against Scientologists if they ever leave the group and try to make trouble.

The information in their PC folders is used as blackmail against them. When I was an auditor, I was unaware that this was being done. I thought that the data told to me as an auditor that I recorded in the PC's folder was being kept strictly confidential.

As an auditor, I employed this thought stopping technique on many of my PCs. If they ever voiced a critical thought against someone in the organization, I would immediately ask them, "What have you done?" Hubbard described the O/W phenomenon in detail, in a way that seemed to make sense to me at the time.

According to Hubbard, this is how it goes: A person commits an overt against the group. Man, however, is basically good, even the most corrupt person. When a person commits an overt, because he is good, he feels that he has to separate himself from the group so he won't continue to harm them. This act of separation causes the person to be critical of the group so he can convince himself that the group is bad and thus, individuate (as Hubbard calls it) from it. Through his criticism of the group, the person then justifies the act of leaving, or "blowing".

When a person stops his critical thoughts about Scientology by asking "What overts have I committed?", it takes his attention off what is wrong with Hubbard and Scientology and turns it back in on himself. This greatly hampers a person's ability to think rationally and objectively about Scientology because any critical thoughts are stopped dead in their tracks, no matter how legitimate.

If you are ever involved in an intervention with someone who is steeped in the doctrine of Scientology, you can be certain that as doubts began to creep up from the information you give him, he will be asking himself, "What overts have I committed?", whether he voices this thought or not.


"Dev-T" (short for "developed traffic")

means unnecessary clutter that stands in the way or delays achieving a particular goal, especially a Scientology-oriented goal. I wanted to be an auditor and do all I could to help clear the planet. Going to the university was dev-t, so I quit.


"Natter"

is short for negative chatter, especially about Scientology. Any criticism about Scientology or the way the group is run, is considered natter, no matter how valid it is. I was often accused of nattering when I didn't like what was going on and spoke up.

These are only a few of the many loaded Scientology terms. For a more complete list, I suggest looking at a Scientology dictionary and discussing with an ex-member how these terms are used to enslave people.(...)
My Nine Lives in Scientology - whole story (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/pignotti/)



On a more positive note, I have been able to move on from this smear campaign and have a happy, fulfilling life. I just returned from a wonderful trip to Italy.(...)
Monica Pignotti Blogg (http://monicapignotti.wordpress.com/category/monica-pignotti-2/)

donk
17th May 2013, 17:27
If you would like to start a religion with me I am sure we would have much common ground. We will definitely give Morecambe avatar status.



It would be a great personal honour to be the first documented disciple in the anals of a Bordianity faith based organisation.

May I suggest a deep meditative form of devotional iconoclasm. Proactively seeking the complete physical, and metaphysical destruction of any organisation, person, or idea through the mechanism of acidically ironic public displays of socially networked worship.

And low the Book of Borden entered the hearts of all those who had the correct configuration of reptilian DNA, and superannuated long term guilt edged securities.


Your discussion reminded me of the religion I was among the first to join, the one with all the answers: Mark Perkel's Church of Reality (http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/)

Before going through some of the absolute reality he has all figured out, I had forgotten how dogmatic "science-based" athiests KNOW EVERYTHING...he has all the answers

Bryston
17th May 2013, 18:38
If you would like to start a religion with me I am sure we would have much common ground. We will definitely give Morecambe avatar status.





It would be a great personal honour to be the first documented disciple in the anals of a Bordianity faith based organisation.

May I suggest a deep meditative form of devotional iconoclasm. Proactively seeking the complete physical, and metaphysical destruction of any organisation, person, or idea through the mechanism of acidically ironic public displays of socially networked worship.

And low the Book of Borden entered the hearts of all those who had the correct configuration of reptilian DNA, and superannuated long term guilt edged securities.


Your discussion reminded me of the religion I was among the first to join, the one with all the answers: Mark Perkel's Church of Reality (http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/)

Before going through some of the absolute reality he has all figured out, I had forgotten how dogmatic "science-based" athiests KNOW EVERYTHING...he has all the answers

Love it!

The bloke has achieved tax exemption status. Superb. Especially like the extinction section were he states that if we were to die out, self contemplating inteligence would emerge somewhere else in the universe. Rational as this sounds, it is sourced from the Descarte Cogito Ergo Sum principal. This is where the Slinky Church of Bordianity, and the Church of Reality have to dogmatically, and violently part ways.

Any self respecting Bordianic malcontent knows there is only one true mind in creation, and the only way one can access the sweet jewels of wisdom is through the metaphysical spandex gyrations of the Profit. Mayonnaise Be Upon Him.

Once the first 69 Wi-Fi Stem Cell E-meter Sophistry units are installed, only then can the critical mass of involuntary initiation begin. How else are we to entice the Demagogic entity known as Cliff Richard out from its vineyard stronghold, and into the CERN Laboratory?

On the subject of attire, and in line with the theme of divine midlife crisis. The Holey Order of Savilline Bordianic Monks have solved the problem of appropriate devotional dress.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOebk_dKFo

The Savilline Monks assure me their Illuminati credentials are impeccable. Hailing from the North Lands of the Nord, their lead singer has a postal order from Oxford, and promises the Monks full access to the sacred ritual of Finish Fiord Felching. On the proviso the monks return the sacred Spam Satchel of Espid Clonk Woed Sh*tter. The infamous 8th Century Viking Snatch Clapper, and first king of Grimsby.


Abstinence, Intolerance, and Onanistic Clairvoyance Brother donk.