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ulli
27th July 2013, 17:18
I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further, modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen.

The Here and Now thread has been fairly successful at this, real friendships have developed there; one only has to look at the statistics to see that this formula of equality has worked very well.

But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders,
establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

Not sure if these critics were objecting to the enlightened male's overconfident style, and wanted to teach him a useful lesson to improve his teaching methods, or if they were merely jealous. Self-image has a lot to do with this need to never appear naive, or gullible, and so it's often an automatic response to tear down another guy, often in the name of "healthy skepticism".

I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.

But back to the lack of team spirit here. There is yet another aspect to this.

Even those males who have reached a higher level of integrity often still see themselves as unique. Maybe they have spent all of their time getting their message out, writing books, and have thus failed to discover that in the larger community the same awakening and enlightenment that happened to them has also happened to many, many others, and increasingly so. It is now becoming a world-wide phenomenon.
Every video talk that I have seen, done by a man who has come across some major universe secret, reveals this flaw of competitiveness in the male psyche, and their vanity.
They all seem to believe that they are on their own with their discoveries.

This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.

The search for truth ought to lead to agreement, not further fragmentations.
Only then can a true force be established that will dissolve the hierarchy of black-ops and high-tech armed tax collectors.

Calz
27th July 2013, 17:48
My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.

I so wish for this to happen.



Hi ulli ... interesting topic for a thread.

Perhaps this will be changing soon as the planet's energies are (allegedly) shifting towards the feminine.

Let us hope so ... we could all use a break from the masculine eh???

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Vishenka_04.gif

T Smith
27th July 2013, 18:01
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

Flash
27th July 2013, 18:02
Ulli you are talking to my heart
from Ulli: This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.

The search for truth ought to lead to agreement, not further fragmentations.
Only then can a true force be established that will dissolve the hierarchy of black-ops and high-tech armed tax collectors.

I have noticed quite the same regarding men vanity and hierarchy mental constructs. To me, it is a symptoms of " being almost there" but not there yet. Vanity and hierarchical thinking are ego based in general. Most of those publishing are at that level imo.

But..... I would also add two other comments:

1. when you are a women supporting the ideas and sharing of one men, the women thinking in terms of collaboration work, and you get inadvertently caught in the web of hierarchy and competitiveness, just by supporting, the other men will compete directly with the former, however, they will subtely dismiss the women by either ignoring her input altogether, or taking it as if it was not well thought of by giving comments that ARE NOT at par with the true investment of the women. THE GO D DAM OLD MACHO PARADIGM IN ALL ITS NUANCES.

2. Also, a very developed men, when exposing his idea and his whole being, will often be fought by not as well developed men who do not know they are not there yet. Then, the well developed men will retract in his shell, thinking he is alone, and therefore the only one who has achieved such understanding.

Trying to spread his knowledge will corner him in the competitive factor amongst human. However, differently from women, who have learned to communicate early (our upbringing is geared towards building relations) and have somewhat learned to cooperate better (for child rearing), men did not have this advantage of easier communication and sharing and will often feel lonely or show less agility in communicating, which will then be detrimentally used against him by competitive beings.

In other words, anyone attaining higher levels of understanding should have our full fledge support, whatever way they communicate it and women could be a great help into this.

I have seen many men with poor communication skills who were geniuses or spriritualy well developed. It always made me sad to see how they are so important for the well being of us all and yet, how difficult it is for them to pass their finding along, louder than all the bs that is given by much less developed ones. I have the same sadness when this is done to a woman just because she is a woman.

aranuk
27th July 2013, 18:05
Hi Ulli I know what you are talking about here. My present behaviour these last few months now is NOT to get involved with my opinions on any important topic. In the past since joining Avalon, I have been disappointed in the way lots of my posts have been attacked by certain male members here. I now mostly just thank people for their intelligent posts. This way I create less enemies. I still enjoy reading many posts and especially the great videos that are posted. I don't know, I might change my mind occasionally and contribute my honest opinion to test the present water temperature. My understanding of a good discussion is where like minded people contribute to the conversation which adds just another maybe small piece of information towards a greater understanding of the topic on hand.

Stan

ulli
27th July 2013, 18:22
My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.

I so wish for this to happen.



Hi ulli ... interesting topic for a thread.

Perhaps this will be changing soon as the planet's energies are (allegedly) shifting towards the feminine.

Let us hope so ... we could all use a break from the masculine eh???

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Vishenka_04.gif


I would never want a break from the masculine- only the unchallenged, out of control masculine.
Each side complements the other.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

778 neighbour of some guy
27th July 2013, 18:27
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

Unenlightened, chop wood, haul water, enlightened, chop wood, haul water, business as usual.

ulli
27th July 2013, 18:29
Ulli you are talking to my heart
from Ulli: This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.

The search for truth ought to lead to agreement, not further fragmentations.
Only then can a true force be established that will dissolve the hierarchy of black-ops and high-tech armed tax collectors.

I have noticed quite the same regarding men vanity and hierarchy mental constructs. To me, it is a symptoms of " being almost there" but not there yet. Vanity and hierarchical thinking are ego based in general. Most of those publishing are at that level imo.

But..... I would also add two other comments:

1. when you are a women supporting the ideas and sharing of one men, the women thinking in terms of collaboration work, and you get inadvertently caught in the web of hierarchy and competitiveness, just by supporting, the other men will compete directly with the former, however, they will subtely dismiss the women by either ignoring her input altogether, or taking it as if it was not well thought of by giving comments that ARE NOT at par with the true investment of the women. THE GO D DAM OLD MACHO PARADIGM IN ALL ITS NUANCES.

2. Also, a very developed men, when exposing his idea and his whole being, will often be fought by not as well developed men who do not know they are not there yet. Then, the well developed men will retract in his shell, thinking he is alone, and therefore the only one who has achieved such understanding.

Trying to spread his knowledge will corner him in the competitive factor amongst human. However, differently from women, who have learned to communicate early (our upbringing is geared towards building relations) and have somewhat learned to cooperate better (for child rearing), men did not have this advantage of easier communication and sharing and will often feel lonely or show less agility in communicating, which will then be detrimentally used against him by competitive beings.

In other words, anyone attaining higher levels of understanding should have our full fledge support, whatever way they communicate it and women could be a great help into this.

I have seen many men with poor communication skills who were geniuses or spriritualy well developed. It always made me sad to see how they are so important for the well being of us all and yet, how difficult it is for them to pass their finding along, louder than all the bs that is given by much less developed ones. I have the same sadness when this is done to a woman just because she is a woman.

I can tell you got IT, and hope that you always have success
in bringing uncommunicative men out of their shell.

As a mother of a boy I tried hard, but to this day feel like a failure.
You have a daughter---different challenges there altogether.
My thing was to prepare a way to spirituality thinking for him,
which I also equate with androgynous thinking,
free from male hormone influences.
No such luck, at least not so far.

ulli
27th July 2013, 18:38
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

It is human, I agree, and during an enlightenment moment there is a feeling that the escape from the human experience is permanent.
But truth is it just leaves traces of memories that turn out to create addictive compulsive obsessive behavior to get back to that level at all cost. Unless one starts studying one's behavior, and discovers the mechanical and habitual nature that we constantly revert to.
This is where vigilant self stalking comes in.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

Unenlightened, chop wood, haul water, enlightened, chop wood, haul water, business as usual.

You are right. Sigh....

Except.... (and that's another thread)

T Smith
27th July 2013, 18:39
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

Okay, makes sense. I guess the question is, then, where on the path to enlightenment, in the Buddhist sense where there is no competition, does an individual rise above seemingly unconscious social behavior inculcated by the masculine paradigm of competition?

ulli
27th July 2013, 18:44
Hi Ulli I know what you are talking about here. My present behaviour these last few months now is NOT to get involved with my opinions on any important topic. In the past since joining Avalon, I have been disappointed in the way lots of my posts have been attacked by certain male members here. I now mostly just thank people for their intelligent posts. This way I create less enemies. I still enjoy reading many posts and especially the great videos that are posted. I don't know, I might change my mind occasionally and contribute my honest opinion to test the present water temperature. My understanding of a good discussion is where like minded people contribute to the conversation which adds just another maybe small piece of information towards a greater understanding of the topic on hand.

Stan

Stan,
so you are the living example of what Im talking about here.
You need to learn to hang out with your buddies, who will support you,
and who won't allow you to just shut up.
You are a voice in the wilderness.

The practice of Horary Astrology is to my understanding one of the highest forms there is...
as it tunes into the here and now like no other.

What it requires is people who know what to ask in a given moment...
which to me is not always an easy thing to do.

The enlightened state is also a state of near-desirelessness-
a state where most questions simply vanish,
as the answers appear in the same instant in which a question is asked.

gripreaper
27th July 2013, 18:45
All of us, men and women both, having been fully subjected, trained, and living in the male dominated patriarchy, in our societies, our schools, in commerce, and in relationships, and is fully embedded in every aspect of both the female and male species.

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.

But, challenged it is and will be. So, going forward, into unity consciousness where the feminine energy becomes at par with the male energy, let us be mindful not to throw the masculine out with the proverbial bathwater as we bring the feminine more into focus.

I envision the women being predominant in making this shift, to not only be the container which manifestation occurs, but also develop their balanced masculine side, without supporting the dying patriarch.

This dance of shifting into unity will have it's pitfalls. We can see it in how relationships have changed, how we no longer go looking for the missing pieces in our nervous system by choosing a partner to "complete" us, but choosing partners, or remaining single, until we ourselves have enough of ourselves to bring to the table.

As far as getting men together to support each other in this shift, I'd be patient. Moving from the patriarch towards unity is going to require extra effort from the women, I'm afraid to say. It's time for the women to step up and take the reigns. It's time for women to lead the way, cause the men can't and wont do it.

ulli
27th July 2013, 18:50
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

Okay, makes sense. I guess the question is, then, where on the path to enlightenment, in the Buddhist sense where there is no competition, does an individual rise above seemingly unconscious social behavior inculcated by the masculine paradigm of competition?

Good question. My take is that this happens at the moment when people can see the vast variety of options in how to respond,
that present themselves in their minds like a flash of lightning, and can then choose to respond from their innermost authentic self.

ulli
27th July 2013, 19:01
All of us, men and women both, having been fully subjected, trained, and living in the male dominated patriarchy, in our societies, our schools, in commerce, and in relationships, and is fully embedded in every aspect of both the female and male species.

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.

But, challenged it is and will be. So, going forward, into unity consciousness where the feminine energy becomes at par with the male energy, let us be mindful not to throw the masculine out with the proverbial bathwater as we bring the feminine more into focus.

I envision the women being predominant in making this shift, to not only be the container which manifestation occurs, but also develop their balanced masculine side, without supporting the dying patriarch.

This dance of shifting into unity will have it's pitfalls. We can see it in how relationships have changed, how we no longer go looking for the missing pieces in our nervous system by choosing a partner to "complete" us, but choosing partners, or remaining single, until we ourselves have enough of ourselves to bring to the table.

As far as getting men together to support each other in this shift, I'd be patient. Moving from the patriarch towards unity is going to require extra effort from the women, I'm afraid to say. It's time for the women to step up and take the reigns. It's time for women to lead the way, cause the men can't and wont do it.


Thank you for a great reply. As a woman who seeks the faults in herself first I have to agree...

We women carry the next generation of people inside our bellies ad then have to be the first to kickstart their initial education, while the men carry the world on their shoulders, with all it's security and survival worries...

And as long as there is an understanding of the complexity of these roles on both sides all will be well.

So what went wrong? Was it the discovery of ET by the military (highest male patriarchy personified)
and the dangers that Contact would entail?

Like, 'Can't tell our women about this, as they would freak out and die of fear' type scenario?

Something like that?

Spiral
27th July 2013, 19:07
I have long been witness to the things this thread is about, however I have somewhat different take on it to the usual stereo type cul de sac.

What we are seeing is something that whilst out in society at large, is an epidemic on forums in particular.

I see men who have gathered vast amounts of info & have carved out a real internet presence for themselves (or are trying too ;)), however their emotional development has not kept pace....

Its kind of the modern worlds equivalent to "mystic pride" IMO.



As a man I can take a trolling, but for sooths sake don't start showing me warm emotion or I will think you are "batting for the opposition".:suspicious:

ulli
27th July 2013, 19:17
I have long been witness to the things this thread is about, however I have somewhat different take on it to the usual stereo type cul de sac.

What we are seeing is something that whilst out in society at large, is an epidemic on forums in particular.

I see men who have gathered vast amounts of info & have carved out a real internet presence for themselves (or are trying too ;)), however their emotional development has not kept pace....

Its kind of the modern worlds equivalent to "mystic pride" IMO.



As a man I can take a trolling, but for sooths sake don't start showing me warm emotion or I will think you are "batting for the opposition".:suspicious:

The question which arises here is what is emotion for and about in the first place.

So many misunderstandings happen when "emotional" people
who have never given their own emotionality any real thought
claim that their feelings make them right.
Thinkers end up getting confused in the light of all this apparent irrationality.

In the name of love fights get picked, and relationships slide downhill,
because often the emotional person sees the thinking rational type as cold,
while the thinking type sees most emotional displays are nothing other than sentimentality.

So both sides can be a severe test to one another.
This is one of the reasons I started this thread...

I must confess I had some concerns that a gender war might be ignited,
although saw a bit of a need for a discussion of these matters.

Flash
27th July 2013, 19:23
I love this thread, truly.

Stan, do speak please, I will pay particular attention from now on.

Spiral, allow me to be "batting for the oppositon" once in a while, it is sometimes part of agile communication at times and other times simply part of being human. To me emotions are the 3D processor for higher love, when conscious. When unconscious, watch out.

Ulli, your son has had your influence, that he acknowledge it or not. The way it is integrated is also dependent upon his soul abilities to absorb and process - we all have different kind of souls although we are one. But let time do its bidding with him, this is my intuition about him.

Yes Gripreaper, challenging the status quo, it takes strenght and at time softness, which some men and women have, both, but the courage to do so has to be constant, even within oneselve.

T Smith, everything has to do with balancing testosterone and estrogen :p .

Calz, just by being on this thread we are showing that a change process is occuring somewhere.

And 778, you got it, I will go take a walk now.;)

I enjoy the thread.

Calz
27th July 2013, 19:33
Family day so have not been able to keep up here (will catch up later).

I thought I would share this one posted by our esteemed giovonni on his Ranch thread from James Gilliland.

Rather on topic and the timing quite ... interesting ... for this thread.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch-And-Beyond&p=707901&viewfull=1#post707901




ECETI NEWS

Many are feeling intense energies which seems to have began yesterday but today it was very strong. It was extreme sadness, deep ancient cellular grief centered around male female relationship. It felt like a rebirth of the feminine stepping back into their power and the males reaction to the projection of those
energies. This process was very intense and hard to assimilate best advice is
taking some space and alone time with compassion for the process. There are
eighth dimensional beings involved in this process. There are star gates opening
assisting in the Earths birthing process along with entire spiritually and
technologically advanced beings, Star Nations also assisting in this process.

On a darker note the chemtrails have a new batch of biologicals in them which
resemble strep throat. People all over the US are coming down with this and the
throat feels as if it is swollen shut making it very hard to swallow. Many are
using different remedies I used colloidal silver and swished some olive oil in
my mouth which worked wonders. I also did a cleanse right after ward using apple
cider, epson salts, followed by olive oil and grapefruit juice. Be sure to be
close to the porcelain God because the bathroom needs to be handy. This is my
own personal process and I am not a doctor or give advice.

At 7:50 PM a very large mother ship flew over the ranch with over 10 witnesses
in a daylight sighting. It vanished over Mt Adams in pixelated sparkles. The
night before was filled with ships powering up and putting on quite a show. The
night was filled with multiple ufos and a massive powerup in the West. Thats it
for now. Hang in there not long now before the end of tyranny. Be well.

James Gilliland

www.eceti.org
www.bbsradio.com
www.worldpuja.net

778 neighbour of some guy
27th July 2013, 19:38
As far as getting men together to support each other in this shift, I'd be patient. Moving from the patriarch towards unity is going to require extra effort from the women, I'm afraid to say. It's time for the women to step up and take the reigns. It's time for women to lead the way, cause the men can't and wont do it.

And ladies, understand this, we men are a very fragile and insecure sensitive bunch( you all know it, we get played like little fiddles, don't deny it, its true), if you can take charge, choose your words right and when and if you can do this without giving men the feeling they are being neutered, we will be your best friends, for life, no question, no argument, just let us be men when we need to be men, at work with the youngsters I tear up when a 16 year old asks me how to shave and show it to him, I grow stubbles just for that occasion and show him how its done ( try that with a leg ladies, I have seen them try and its not what is required)

I come from a family where equality was rule, my mother was one the frontrunners in the emancipation movement, sensitive yet militant( mr dad, went along to far with it for that matter and turned into a nutless squishy wimp, something ms mom did not appreciate at all, told him to grow a pair and when that did not happen they split up), basically I can tell stories for hours how equality should work ( friggin social worker parents, really), but first it has to balance out in a person individually, don't just tell each other what to do, show each other how to do it, respectfully. We have a lot more in common than bellybuttons.

As grandma used to say when she ditched Catholicism after the shyte she saw in the war, "this whole book and all others like it and all fancy rules to live our lives by can be replaced by one sentence,........Just for today, try not to be a c*nt." Obviously I have discovered this is an excellent rule and always applies.

I believe in equality, but we are by no means equal, and I believe men can adapt ( notice how I did not use the word "change") show us how and give us a choice, show us the better way, lets us decide for ourselves, when we recognize the validity we will adapt, and we have done so for many thousands of years before, if not we would be extinct, that is a fact we fully recognize, when you rub our noses in that to hard and often we will very likely become bitter drunks or suicide bummers ( you know, those fellers with the odd body warmers), we cant beat you and we know it, and we also know its not about winning or losing, we can not give birth, we cannot create live, you ladies must realize what an amazing creature you can be to us, we have got nothing on you, we know fully well we can be pretty much full of sh!t, its all you left us, goddammit;).

So..... this rule applies for both sexes in all circumstances "Just for today, try not to be a c*nt"

Howg

All jokes aside, this is a great topic Ulli and I fully understand and I see it all around me, but..............not all men are the same.. take it from guy who could be your kid.


As a mother of a boy I tried hard, but to this day feel like a failure.

I don't want dismiss your feeling here, and know nothing about your attempts, but let me tell you, if you gave it your best shot, you gave it, being some ones kid my self I can say whole heartedly, kids can be total jackasses but eventually we will learn and think back to the times our mothers tried to tell or explain us something, no matter how old or wise we became, I am sure you have done just fine.


My thing was to prepare a way to spirituality thinking for him,
which I also equate with androgynous thinking,
free from male hormone influences.
No such luck, at least not so far.

You sound exactly like my mother, I understand what you tried to do here, however androgynous thinking also INCLUIDES male hormone influences, and here comes anther how ever, there are RIGHT male hormonal influences and WRONG ones, and prolly some neutral ones too.

Thanks again for the OP Ulli, a good subject to dig in to.

Ed

johnf
27th July 2013, 19:41
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

I like that description, yet I strongly believe in dropping the word entirely.
It is nearly impossible to use a word anyway without turning it into an object in ones mind.
If the speaker can do this, this doesn't ensure that the listener won't.
Your statement above Ulli points out that there are subtle levels to this object, and its attached programs.

The use of the word in the alternative community has gotten rather far from it's sources.
It seems to get attached to the whole conspiracy awareness thing, and that is something that I just don't hear from the
convincing non duality types.

The "enlightened" people whom I find the most convincing, stress that they are still deepening and refining the state.
I think that the challenge of occupying a body is often grossly underestimated.
I agree with Dr. Eben Alexander (link to interview(I didn't want to put this in as a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA)), when he describes the whole purpose of the brain as an awareness reduction valve.
I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.

The male ego programs, if seen as spiritual fulcrums for those around the person exhibiting them can be doorways to awareness for them.
It is up to the male exhibiting this behavior, to look at their own programs, or not.
There is freedom for those that look at their own reactions and programs, no matter what brings them into action.

jf

Flash
27th July 2013, 19:45
from 778: You sound exactly like my mother, I understand what you tried to do here, however androgynous thinking also INCLUIDES male hormone influences, and here comes anther how ever, there are RIGHT male hormonal influences and WRONG ones, and prolly some neutral ones too

Yes, 778 and Ulli, once i was in a very spiritually oriented class, having lessons on the higher worlds (with experiencing or not), therefore all in clouds, when I made a sudden comment wher everyone came back down: we started to talk about men/women spirituality and the fact that mostly women come to those classes except for older men, and I said: Well, in men, when testosterone goes down, spirituality goes up.

Often, men get it in their forties or fifties. Before, instinct are driving them (by) nuts. LOL pun intented.

With sons, husbands, friends, we just have to be patient, light does lit up at some point.

ulli
27th July 2013, 19:53
I love this thread, truly.

Stan, do speak please, I will pay particular attention from now on.

Spiral, allow me to be "batting for the oppositon" once in a while, it is sometimes part of agile communication at times and other times simply part of being human. To me emotions are the 3D processor for higher love, when conscious. When unconscious, watch out.

Ulli, your son has had your influence, that he acknowledge it or not. The way it is integrated is also dependent upon his soul abilities to absorb and process - we all have different kind of souls although we are one. But let time do its bidding with him, this is my intuition about him.

Yes Gripreaper, challenging the status quo, it takes strenght and at time softness, which some men and women have, both, but the courage to do so has to be constant, even within oneselve.

T Smith, everything has to do with balancing testosterone and estrogen :p .

Calz, just by being on this thread we are showing that a change process is occuring somewhere.

And 778, you got it, I will go take a walk now.;)

I enjoy the thread.

Now I just wish more Avalon women would bring their views here...
not just you, Flash, and I, who are on the same page.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Family day so have not been able to keep up here (will catch up later).

I thought I would share this one posted by our esteemed giovonni on his Ranch thread from James Gilliland.

Rather on topic and the timing quite ... interesting ... for this thread.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch-And-Beyond&p=707901&viewfull=1#post707901




ECETI NEWS

Many are feeling intense energies which seems to have began yesterday but today it was very strong. It was extreme sadness, deep ancient cellular grief centered around male female relationship. It felt like a rebirth of the feminine stepping back into their power and the males reaction to the projection of those
energies. This process was very intense and hard to assimilate best advice is
taking some space and alone time with compassion for the process. There are
eighth dimensional beings involved in this process. There are star gates opening
assisting in the Earths birthing process along with entire spiritually and
technologically advanced beings, Star Nations also assisting in this process.

On a darker note the chemtrails have a new batch of biologicals in them which
resemble strep throat. People all over the US are coming down with this and the
throat feels as if it is swollen shut making it very hard to swallow. Many are
using different remedies I used colloidal silver and swished some olive oil in
my mouth which worked wonders. I also did a cleanse right after ward using apple
cider, epson salts, followed by olive oil and grapefruit juice. Be sure to be
close to the porcelain God because the bathroom needs to be handy. This is my
own personal process and I am not a doctor or give advice.

At 7:50 PM a very large mother ship flew over the ranch with over 10 witnesses
in a daylight sighting. It vanished over Mt Adams in pixelated sparkles. The
night before was filled with ships powering up and putting on quite a show. The
night was filled with multiple ufos and a massive powerup in the West. Thats it
for now. Hang in there not long now before the end of tyranny. Be well.

James Gilliland

www.eceti.org
www.bbsradio.com
www.worldpuja.net

Thanks for that post Calz.
I now understand that insistent prompting that got me to start this thread...
even though I have felt inclined to do it quite a few times before, but never like today.

ulli
27th July 2013, 20:00
As far as getting men together to support each other in this shift, I'd be patient. Moving from the patriarch towards unity is going to require extra effort from the women, I'm afraid to say. It's time for the women to step up and take the reigns. It's time for women to lead the way, cause the men can't and wont do it.

And ladies, understand this, we men are a very fragile and insecure sensitive bunch( you all know it, we get played like little fiddles, don't deny it, its true), if you can take charge, choose your words right and when and if you can do this without giving men the feeling they are being neutered, we will be your best friends, for life, no question, no argument, just let us be men when we need to be men, at work with the youngsters I tear up when a 16 year old asks me how to shave and show it to him, I grow stubbles just for that occasion and show him how its done ( try that with a leg ladies, I have seen them try and its not what is required)

I come from a family where equality was rule, my mother was one the frontrunners in the emancipation movement, sensitive yet militant( mr dad, went along to far with it for that matter and turned into a nutless squishy wimp, something ms mom did not appreciate at all, told him to grow a pair and when that did not happen they split up), basically I can tell stories for hours how equality should work ( friggin social worker parents, really), but first it has to balance out in a person individually, don't just tell each other what to do, show each other how to do it, respectfully. We have a lot more in common than bellybuttons.

As grandma used to say when she ditched Catholicism after the shyte she saw in the war, "this whole book and all others like it and all fancy rules to live our lives by can be replaced by one sentence,........Just for today, try not to be a c*nt." Obviously I have discovered this is an excellent rule and always applies.

I believe in equality, but we are by no means equal, and I believe men can adapt ( notice how I did not use the word "change") show us how and give us a choice, show us the better way, lets us decide for ourselves, when we recognize the validity we will adapt, and we have done so for many thousands of years before, if not we would be extinct, that is a fact we fully recognize, when you rub our noses in that to hard and often we will very likely become bitter drunks or suicide bummers ( you know, those fellers with the odd body warmers), we cant beat you and we know it, and we also know its not about winning or losing, we can not give birth, we cannot create live, you ladies must realize what an amazing creature you can be to us, we have got nothing on you, we know fully well we can be pretty much full of sh!t, its all you left us, goddammit;).

So..... this rule applies for both sexes in all circumstances "Just for today, try not to be a c*nt"

Howg

All jokes aside, this is a great topic Ulli and I fully understand and I see it all around me, but..............not all men are the same.. take it from guy who could be your kid.


As a mother of a boy I tried hard, but to this day feel like a failure.

I don't want dismiss your feeling here, and know nothing about your attempts, but let me tell you, if you gave it your best shot, you gave it, being some ones kid my self I can say whole heartedly, kids can be total jackasses but eventually we will learn and think back to the times our mothers tried to tell or explain us something, no matter how old or wise we became, I am sure you have done just fine.


My thing was to prepare a way to spirituality thinking for him,
which I also equate with androgynous thinking,
free from male hormone influences.
No such luck, at least not so far.

You sound exactly like my mother, I understand what you tried to do here, however androgynous thinking also INCLUIDES male hormone influences, and here comes anther how ever, there are RIGHT male hormonal influences and WRONG ones, and prolly some neutral ones too.

Thanks again for the OP Ulli, a good subject to dig in to.

Ed

It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

As much as I have issues with the Catholic Church...here in Latin America
it has helped to elevate women to a higher level of respectability,
due to the feminine image of the Virgin permeating everything...
while at the same time allowing men to still keep their machismo (male ego).
What a world!
One thing I noticed...here I find far less striving
for enlightenment than in western countries I know.

778 neighbour of some guy
27th July 2013, 20:20
It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

Funny enough I found out exactly the same in my relationships and even funnier my ex girlfriend (black) said she would never date or fall in love with a man again because we were all basically cheating, not trustworthy, egocentric racist dicks, let alone a white guy, no friggin way, she tested me, teased me, tried to mess with my head to get her confirmation, I didn't give her jack sh!t in regards to that, took her by total surprise and voila a wonderful relationship bloomed up under the most unlikely circumstances,, what was very funny to me was the role pattern she was programmed with, this was never a problem btw, she was a woman and I am a man and that was just fine, I cannot count the times she CHASED me out of the kitchen( I like to cook because I like to eat), into the living room, she turned on the tv, handed me a beer, told me to stop looking surprised and just chill out and let me fix you dinner and tonight theres going to be another surprise for you, this was amazing and indeed cultural, but didn't have any issues what so ever in this, no tight buttcheeks, just the way it was and felt completely natural and satisfactory to both of us, even better was.. she was an accountant for a mayor firm, made serious money, didn't take sh!t from anyone ( she would fight you if you did and you would bleed too, funny as hell, not very enlightened but very funny), so........... when lines are defined without being pushed onto each other things can go very smooth too, without a hitch.

22141

22142

Another1
27th July 2013, 20:38
Your post is good to see here. I can tell you one thing for certain, both male and female 'experts' in this genre all over the internet have a tendency to respond with an energy of, "Who the hell are you?," when they see new ideas arrive with a youngster that may conflict with their 'authority'

I had not thought of the situation in these male/female terms too much until this week due to a post suggesting Alpha males should die and this one here you have started.

This I believe is a fact:

Ulli said - I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.As an observation from someone who still feels new here at Avalon:
It's common for me to have a seeming conversation inside with people met in a new place. I have no strict definition for this or care to discect it too much beyond my assertion that the heart channel is real.

This place as a 'group mind' has been welcoming to someone who is not necessarily in the current mainstream. There is more balance here than I am accustomed to.

As my first posts went up and the energies of various people began to seep through here, the 'conversation' inside was less aggressive than I'm used to and more about, "How can we help?" I was led to read the entire 48 page spread begat by Bill's post under Priority threads, the Ultimate Hypothesis (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46887-From-Bill-Ryan-the-Ultimate-Hypothesis&p=514309&viewfull=1#post514309).

Reading all of that thread helped me get a feel for how to better approach what I wanted to communicate. There were at least a 1/2 dozen times when I felt like the poster was someone I should meet but their profile in most every case was empty while many of the posters who I thought would be itched by my comments had full profiles to the point where I can just hit a Skype button to meet them?

Gripreaper wrote:

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.
My step out of the total male dominated reality was fought against well, in one case, by a powerful group that thought my belief in a Goddess, equal to their 'God', was silly. They even assigned a mate who thought so.

As part of our graduation we were directed to create a business card asserting 'In His Majesty's Service' ~ As a final 'standing my ground' statement, I had mine gold embossed asserting 'In Her Majesty's Service' ~ The result was a very well crafted multiple level attack that left a gaping wound in heart/mind to last several years.

In a respect, I am convinced this resistance to male/female being peers, goes all the way back to a 'fall' ~ when someone/something deliberately put us at odds in their endeavor to hide our power from us.

Years ago a popular bumper sticker read, "The Goddess is back and She's p*****" ~ in my experience as a traveler, the message received has been, "The Goddess is back and She misses her husband."

ulli
27th July 2013, 20:42
It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

Funny enough I found out exactly the same in my relationships and even funnier my ex girlfriend (black) said she would never date or fall in love with a man again because we were all basically cheating, not trustworthy, egocentric racist dicks, let alone a white guy, no friggin way, she tested me, teased me, tried to mess with my head to get her confirmation, I didn't give her jack sh!t in regards to that, took her by total surprise and voila a wonderful relationship bloomed up under the most unlikely circumstances,, what was very funny to me was the role pattern she was programmed with, this was never a problem btw, she was a woman and I am a man and that was just fine, I cannot count the times she CHASED me out of the kitchen( I like to cook because I like to eat), into the living room, she turned on the tv, handed me a beer, told me to stop looking surprised and just chill out and let me fix you dinner and tonight theres going to be another surprise for you, this was amazing and indeed cultural, but didn't have any issues what so ever in this, no tight buttcheeks, just the way it was and felt completely natural and satisfactory to both of us, even better was.. she was an accountant for a mayor firm, made serious money, didn't take sh!t from anyone ( she would fight you if you did and you would bleed too, funny as hell, not very enlightened but very funny), so........... when lines are defined without being pushed onto each other things can go very smooth too, without a hitch.

Yes, when both sides want harmony any relationship will work out.
Even those where one has lots of cosmic knowledge and the other acts mostly on instinct.
Like humans and their cats,...they know each others roles.

ghostrider
27th July 2013, 20:44
most men cant perceive there is strength in weakness , and honor in humility... the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth ... I tell men all the time, it's not I or you , it's us ... we stand on the same ground, need the same air, we live on the earth, why fight when we could work together and change the world for the better of all ??? it's up to us , nobody will do it for us, it's our responsibility ...

ulli
27th July 2013, 20:57
Your post is good to see here. I can tell you one thing for certain, both male and female 'experts' in this genre all over the internet have a tendency to respond with an energy of, "Who the hell are you?," when they see new ideas arrive with a youngster that may conflict with their 'authority'

I had not thought of the situation in these male/female terms too much until this week due to a post suggesting Alpha males should die and this one here you have started.

This I believe is a fact:

Ulli said - I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.As an observation from someone who still feels new here at Avalon:
It's common for me to have a seeming conversation inside with people met in a new place. I have no strict definition for this or care to discect it too much beyond my assertion that the heart channel is real.

This place as a 'group mind' has been welcoming to someone who is not necessarily in the current mainstream. There is more balance here than I am accustomed to.

As my first posts went up and the energies of various people began to seep through here, the 'conversation' inside was less aggressive than I'm used to and more about, "How can we help?" I was led to read the entire 48 page spread begat by Bill's post under Priority threads, the Ultimate Hypothesis (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46887-From-Bill-Ryan-the-Ultimate-Hypothesis&p=514309&viewfull=1#post514309).

Reading all of that thread helped me get a feel for how to better approach what I wanted to communicate. There were at least a 1/2 dozen times when I felt like the poster was someone I should meet but their profile in most every case was empty while many of the posters who I thought would be itched by my comments had full profiles to the point where I can just hit a Skype button to meet them?

Gripreaper wrote:

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.
My step out of the total male dominated reality was fought against well, in one case, by a powerful group that thought my belief in a Goddess, equal to their 'God', was silly. They even assigned a mate who thought so.

As part of our graduation we were directed to create a business card asserting 'In His Majesty's Service' ~ As a final 'standing my ground' statement, I had mine gold embossed asserting 'In Her Majesty's Service' ~ The result was a very well crafted multiple level attack that left a gaping wound in heart/mind to last several years.

In a respect, I am convinced this resistance to male/female being peers, goes all the way back to a 'fall' ~ when someone/something deliberately put us at odds in their endeavor to hide our power from us.

Years ago a popular bumper sticker read, "The Goddess is back and She's p*****" ~ in my experience as a traveler, the message received has been, "The Goddess is back and She misses her husband."


I once tried to fit in with a group of women who were all Goddess people, but it didn't work out. They thought I was programmed, not realizing how many more U turns I had made in my life than themselves, to escape all forms of programming. So I tried to find out what it was that made some people ok with the concept of a male godhead, while others were into females. Not speaking here of people who were still in their old paradigm, but hose who had dropped out ages ago.
And I found myself settling on the psychology answer, that in most cases childhood relationship with mother and father determined these attitudes towards a higher power. I finally settled on the idea that planets were the female egg, and meteors were the sperm shot by the cosmic male God. And that the real Creator of all was/ is an IT, androgynous being.

There were more items in your post I could respond to but this one struck me the most.

778 neighbour of some guy
27th July 2013, 21:06
the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth

I could not disagree more, seriously.

A HUMAN'S ego CAN be the birthplace of all things going wrong, I don't identify with mens ego if you state it as you did above, for that matter, how do you explain away the Hillary's, the momma Bushes, Marie Antoinettes, Winnie Mandela's and then some, by saying they follow the examples of men? Let us not rule out the ladies here eh, you know what they say right, behind every powerful man stands a powerful woman, this is not a one man or one woman show and not a simple topic. This is about the integrity and quality of thought and character, not sexes.

Another1
27th July 2013, 21:07
And that the real Creator of all was/ is an IT, androgynous being.

We reached the same conclusion.
If way up on a cloud I am an 'It'

Why/How we were split this way in our skinsuits is up for debate but,
that it (this split) is attempting to heal itself was my intended communication.

Thank you for this thread.

ulli
27th July 2013, 21:27
the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth

I could not disagree more, seriously.

A HUMAN'S ego CAN be the birthplace of all things going wrong, I don't identify with mens ego if you state it as you did above, for that matter, how do you explain away the Hillary's, the momma Bushes, Marie Antoinettes, Winnie Mandela's and then some, by saying they follow the examples of men? Let us not rule out the ladies here eh, you know what they say right, behind every powerful man stands a powerful woman, this is not a one man or one woman job and not a simple topic. This about the integrity and quality of thought and character, not sexes.

The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect.

Not saying that such an imbalance couldn't also take the world to the brink of extinction,
but I can't remember any lives where I have lived through that scenario.....
so Im not to sure how that would play out.

jagman
27th July 2013, 21:30
I'm not really enlightened yet..I dont think. lol So I dont know if I should comment,
but what the hell i'm here. Ulli, I have great respect for you and flash. I value both
of your opinions has much has any male that's on the forum. I also enjoy this thread.
So please allow me to challenge the part about "male competitiveness" being a bad thing.
I am a alpha male leo who has competed my whole life in some fashion...

My father was a semi professional baseball player. When he retired he took up coaching.
When I was 8 years old he started coaching a team of 12 & 13 yearolds. He put me on his
team. Right in the middle of a big game my father put me in has pitcher. (A disaster in the making)
I remember being on the pitchers mound throwing ball after ball and when I did throw it over the
plate it was hit hard. The crowd was booing me and I started to cry but my father refused to take
me out. 15 runs were scored against me that day before I finally got the 3 outs.

I think I cried myself to sleep that night. Something else also happened that night. I told myself
that I would practice everyday so that would never happen again. By the time I was 16 years old
I had become a great athlete and a strong person.

onawah
27th July 2013, 21:32
The Bodhisattva is just such a one as you describe here, johnf:


I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.jf

We cannot relate to other human beings unless we can retain some of what makes us human, even as we aspire to "enlightenment" --whatever that term may mean for us, and I think the meaning of that word changes greatly as we grow...

I was watching this TED talk earlier today

qu7ZpWecIS8

At the risk of unfairly making an example of this man, I will say that I was struck by a couple of things that had little to do with the data he was sharing.

At one point, he was talking about LOL Cats, as a phenomena of the internet community that demonstrates a kind of free sharing, and later in the talk, he disparagingly equates LOL Cats --which he describes as "throwaway" in value --with the erotic novels that resulted when the printing press was first making its appearance.

(You will have to watch the video to understand the full context of these remarks.)

What struck me was the thinly veiled contempt that he displayed when speaking of two demonstrations of humankind's affinity for humor and eroticism, two of the ways in which we are most able to experience our humanness that allows us to release some of the stress and other forms of negative energy that tend to be generated by our existence in this material reality.

Folly (as opposed to seriousness, which is thought of as being more of a male attribute) our kinship to the animal kingdom, and eroticism (usually typified as a more feminine -and untrustworthy-characteristic) are portrayed as trivial and slightly disgusting by this man.
And he never cracks a smile during the whole talk. :mmph:

While the theme of his talk that has to do with building community through generosity and freely sharing, is interesting and admirable, it bothered me that so much of what I think is wonderful about humankind in this talk was being downgraded by this man to something less than worthy--our ability to laugh at ourselves and our natural ability to enjoy and bond via our material bodies.

And that seems to be how humanity in many cultures has gone about handling the erotic and the humorous aspects of our nature- through suppression, and by cheapening and ridiculing.

That is typical of patriarchy, and is no doubt why the male ego is so surprisingly fragile, especially about things that are, by the definitions that patriarchy has imposed upon them, so little worthy of consideration.
(This may have to do with something akin to "womb envy", I suppose.)

But I think we are never able to be fully human unless we can embrace those aspects of ourselves as well, and to integrate them into our definitions of what is sacred.
Our hearts have to evolve along with our heads, or we will be forever out of balance.

778 neighbour of some guy
27th July 2013, 21:41
The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

True, also perhaps women should encourage their sons NOT to join armies.


When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect

Ok also true, but I get the impression you mean smothering out of love, love for and of what is a good question, because they can, because they want, because they have to, I see woman and girls from all ages who have some bad mean streaks in them ( not necessarily caused by men btw), just character or peer pressure, not all ladies are angels and they also do not behave like them, just like men.

Not defending men here or picking on the ladies, just trying to make a point.

BTW I do think God or whatever you might want to call it is a female energy.

ulli
27th July 2013, 21:42
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

I like that description, yet I strongly believe in dropping the word entirely.
It is nearly impossible to use a word anyway without turning it into an object in ones mind.
If the speaker can do this, this doesn't ensure that the listener won't.
Your statement above Ulli points out that there are subtle levels to this object, and its attached programs.

The use of the word in the alternative community has gotten rather far from it's sources.
It seems to get attached to the whole conspiracy awareness thing, and that is something that I just don't hear from the
convincing non duality types.

The "enlightened" people whom I find the most convincing, stress that they are still deepening and refining the state.
I think that the challenge of occupying a body is often grossly underestimated.
I agree with Dr. Eben Alexander (link to interview(I didn't want to put this in as a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA)), when he describes the whole purpose of the brain as an awareness reduction valve.
I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.

The male ego programs, if seen as spiritual fulcrums for those around the person exhibiting them can be doorways to awareness for them.
It is up to the male exhibiting this behavior, to look at their own programs, or not.
There is freedom for those that look at their own reactions and programs, no matter what brings them into action.

jf

The brain as an 'Awareness reduction valve' ...
Hmm..

One could also call the brain "a priority establisher....

In any case, it is a delicate and useful tool and so long as people see it as just a tool their identity is intact...

the problem starts when people believe the identity imagery that their brain throws out is their real Self.

And that could even be male or female role playing.

Self image can hold one back from attaining true identity.

In my view it is strongly linked with ego.

ulli
27th July 2013, 21:52
The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

True, also perhaps women should encourage their sons NOT to join armies.


When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect

Ok also true, but I get the impression you mean smothering out of love, love for and of what is a good question, because they can, because they want, because they have to, I see woman and girls from all ages who have some bad mean streaks in them ( not necessarily caused by men btw), just character or peer pressure, not all ladies are angels and they also do not behave like them, just like men.

Not defending men here or picking on the ladies, just trying to make a point.

BTW I do think God or whatever you might want to call it is a female energy.

I know what you are saying about the mean streak in some women.
But this to me is a symptom of a sick society that has reached the outer limits of development.
A kind of perversity, if you will.
Heavy programming with memes that develop self-protective attitudes.
Many girls want to be like boys, and are snappy and aggressive.
It is also one of the reasons why many males opt for a gay life,
as far removed from women as possible.

About the Creator God being male, or female, or neutral, or not being at all..
that could make an interesting poll for Avalonians

ulli
27th July 2013, 22:04
I'm not really enlightened yet..I dont think. lol So I dont know if I should comment,
but what the hell i'm here. Ulli, I have great respect for you and flash. I value both
of your opinions has much has any male that's on the forum. I also enjoy this thread.
So please allow me to challenge the part about "male competitiveness" being a bad thing.
I am a alpha male leo who has competed my whole life in some fashion...

My father was a semi professional baseball player. When he retired he took up coaching.
When I was 8 years old he started coaching a team of 12 & 13 yearolds. He put me on his
team. Right in the middle of a big game my father put me in has pitcher. (A disaster in the making)
I remember being on the pitchers mound throwing ball after ball and when I did throw it over the
plate it was hit hard. The crowd was booing me and I started to cry but my father refused to take
me out. 15 runs were scored against me that day before I finally got the 3 outs.

I think I cried myself to sleep that night. Something else also happened that night. I told myself
that I would practice everyday so that would never happen again. By the time I was 16 years old
I had become a great athlete and a strong person.

Wow, what a story. I'm glad you shared that, Jagman. But doesn't it partly make my point...about the intensity of the programming...being passed from one generation to the next?
I learnt a bit about the Chinese preparing their gymnasts for the Olympics, about ground training in the military,
about my own determination to make money early in life to prove to my dad, whom I loved, that he would never have to worry about financially supporting me.
I also know what goes on in hospitals, during internships, when young doctors are forced to stay awake for 36 hours without a nap...a professional custom that has been practiced for generations and all those who survived that ordeal can now insist that just because they went through it the next generation of doctors must, too.

But the real value of pushing another to their ultimate physical limit....what is it?
To create self esteem in a person?

Justintime
27th July 2013, 22:20
Thank you Ulli for posting this thread as it gives me a chance to share my own personal failures at creating or joining brotherhoods throughout my lifetime. But, first let me start by saying as a man who sometimes thinks incredibly deely that even though I discover and rediscover profound truths and possibilities I don't think I'll ever get over my hardwiring of being competitive. I'm the third child in an ultra competive family, where it felt( though it wasn't the case) it felt like my worth was based on how I performed academically, athletically and social-emotinally compared to my older brother and sister. Now, I sometimes surpassed my sister, but never outshined my older brother. And still don't, I'm a teacher and he's a principal :eek:
Anyways, competition between males is a completely insane thing. As I matured physically, my brothers five years older than me, I started to compete with him and eventually beat him in one on one basketball games. In our twenty's these games would get so heated that they would end in blood. An elbow here and there during the game would lead to fists after the game. Needless to say in our thirty's we no longer play.

Ill add more to this in a bit, I've got to go, but let me end by saying that I haven't been able to find a group of quote on quote brothers that hasn't been fabricated and fake, but would enjoy being able to form those bonds here at PA and think given the commonalities of interests on this website we all should be able to become closer here with people than say people at our work or neighbors or even some of our friends who just aren't into this sort of thing)

northstar
27th July 2013, 22:24
This discussion is getting interesting. It strikes me that some clarification of terminology might be useful at this point.



Patriarchy

Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Misogyny

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterised as a prominent feature of the mythologies of the ancient world as well as various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Kyriarchy

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others. It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy



In my opinion the terminology is important because there is a vast literature of research and writing on just what we are discussing here. It might help to connect and ground our personal stories, thoughts and opinions with some of that theory.

I find Kyriarchy especially interesting. The developer of that term is a radical feminist who claims that we are living in a post-patriarchy world and we must broaden our notions of domination and oppression to include not just gender but race, economic class and others.

I am an old-fashioned feminist but when I came across this concept of "Kyriarchy" it rang some bells for me.

ulli
27th July 2013, 22:41
Thank you Ulli for posting this thread as it gives me a chance to share my own personal failures at creating or joining brotherhoods throughout my lifetime. But, first let me start by saying as a man who sometimes thinks incredibly deely that even though I discover and rediscover profound truths and possibilities I don't think I'll ever get over my hardwiring of being competitive. I'm the third child in an ultra competive family, where it felt( though it wasn't the case) it felt like my worth was based on how I performed academically, athletically and social-emotinally compared to my older brother and sister. Now, I sometimes surpassed my sister, but never outshined my older brother. And still don't, I'm a teacher and he's a principal :eek:
Anyways, competition between males is a completely insane thing. As I matured physically, my brothers five years older than me, I started to compete with him and eventually beat him in one on one basketball games. In our twenty's these games would get so heated that they would end in blood. An elbow here and there during the game would lead to fists after the game. Needless to say in our thirty's we no longer play.

(Ill add more to this in a bit, I've got to go, but let me end by saying that I haven't been able to find a group of quote on quote brothers that hasn't been fabricated and fake, but would enjoy being able to form those bonds here at PA and think given the commonalities of interests on this website we all should be able to become closer here with people than say people at our work or neighbors or even some of our friends who just aren't Ito this sort of thing)

Freedom and enlightenment happen when something deep within is let go of.
And that is usually a program that has trapped us in family patterns and that can create these competitive attitudes.

And we can erase it with a single step...I believe this is possible.
Asking oneself the question "what is served by this?" might be enough.

I realized already in my teens that I had to get out of my country, away from my family,
because my sanity would depend on it.
Germany in the 1960s was too confusing for me...too many extremes...fascism, communism, capitalism.
Lots of confused and war-damaged elders.

I would now recommend any young person to travel overseas,
to see how different cultures operate.
Find friends online and invite one another to visit...
it is the best way to see one's own programming and make an objective evaluation...
free from all national or patriotic bias and family indoctrination.

Flash
27th July 2013, 22:46
I'm not really enlightened yet..I dont think. lol So I dont know if I should comment,
but what the hell i'm here. Ulli, I have great respect for you and flash. I value both
of your opinions has much has any male that's on the forum. I also enjoy this thread.
So please allow me to challenge the part about "male competitiveness" being a bad thing.
I am a alpha male leo who has competed my whole life in some fashion...

My father was a semi professional baseball player. When he retired he took up coaching.
When I was 8 years old he started coaching a team of 12 & 13 yearolds. He put me on his
team. Right in the middle of a big game my father put me in has pitcher. (A disaster in the making)
I remember being on the pitchers mound throwing ball after ball and when I did throw it over the
plate it was hit hard. The crowd was booing me and I started to cry but my father refused to take
me out. 15 runs were scored against me that day before I finally got the 3 outs.

I think I cried myself to sleep that night. Something else also happened that night. I told myself
that I would practice everyday so that would never happen again. By the time I was 16 years old
I had become a great athlete and a strong person.

There is a large difference between competitiveness high enough to make yourself get better, and competitiveness to kill someone else talents of being. A strong and large difference.

Being the smallest one in a very competitive environment and having to stand it was a lesson of growing up and working at becoming better: working through and with it, becoming better - a life experience that can apply to many part of ones life.
Compare it with competitiveness to kill: I personally am a twin and my twin had decided early on that she would have all the attention for her alone. God did she bullied me. Did it help me to get better, I do not think so. You see, competitiveness was used by her ego to satisfy only her (self service). This is quite destructive.

I also have worked in customer environments all my career, mostly sales of concepts (which is pretty difficult), with high pay and loooooots of competition. When within the same team, where I was most often the only woman (girl as guys would say, so they don't have to respect too much), they would compete so much to make sure that their "friend" would not get the account, this becomes destructive and merciless. Competition on testosterone, much to much of it. Of course, the "girl" would have to be particularly resilient because she would receive more of the knock out. Competing like that against the other company was however part of the job and not personally destructive (although I think now that it is socially destructive).

Those kind of competition do not make you grow, they make you shrink in your being.

When I talk competition, this is the latter I am talking about. And male often overdo it if not stopped. Psychopaths (lack empathy of any kind) over do it all the time, re: banksters, Rotschild like and others)

Flash
27th July 2013, 22:49
The Bodhisattva is just such a one as you describe here, johnf:


I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.jf

We cannot relate to other human beings unless we can retain some of what makes us human, even as we aspire to "enlightenment" --whatever that term may mean for us, and I think the meaning of that word changes greatly as we grow...

I was watching this TED talk earlier today

qu7ZpWecIS8

At the risk of unfairly making an example of this man, I will say that I was struck by a couple of things that had little to do with the data he was sharing.

At one point, he was talking about LOL Cats, as a phenomena of the internet community that demonstrates a kind of free sharing, and later in the talk, he disparagingly equates LOL Cats --which he describes as "throwaway" in value --with the erotic novels that resulted when the printing press was first making its appearance.

(You will have to watch the video to understand the full context of these remarks.)

What struck me was the thinly veiled contempt that he displayed when speaking of two demonstrations of humankind's affinity for humor and eroticism, two of the ways in which we are most able to experience our humanness that allows us to release some of the stress and other forms of negative energy that tend to be generated by our existence in this material reality.

Folly (as opposed to seriousness, which is thought of as being more of a male attribute) our kinship to the animal kingdom, and eroticism (usually typified as a more feminine -and untrustworthy-characteristic) are portrayed as trivial and slightly disgusting by this man.
And he never cracks a smile during the whole talk. :mmph:

While the theme of his talk that has to do with building community through generosity and freely sharing, is interesting and admirable, it bothered me that so much of what I think is wonderful about humankind in this talk was being downgraded by this man to something less than worthy--our ability to laugh at ourselves and our natural ability to enjoy and bond via our material bodies.

And that seems to be how humanity in many cultures has gone about handling the erotic and the humorous aspects of our nature- through suppression, and by cheapening and ridiculing.

That is typical of patriarchy, and is no doubt why the male ego is so surprisingly fragile, especially about things that are, by the definitions that patriarchy has imposed upon them, so little worthy of consideration.
(This may have to do with something akin to "womb envy", I suppose.)

But I think we are never be able to be fully human unless we can embrace those aspects of ourselves as well, and to integrate them into our definitions of what is sacred.
Our hearts have to evolve along with our heads, or we will be forever out of balance.

Very keen and interesting observation, you see, even me I have been caught with the macho paradigm here, not making the links you did. You are right about him.

Flash
27th July 2013, 22:56
Thank you Ulli for posting this thread as it gives me a chance to share my own personal failures at creating or joining brotherhoods throughout my lifetime. But, first let me start by saying as a man who sometimes thinks incredibly deely that even though I discover and rediscover profound truths and possibilities I don't think I'll ever get over my hardwiring of being competitive. I'm the third child in an ultra competive family, where it felt( though it wasn't the case) it felt like my worth was based on how I performed academically, athletically and social-emotinally compared to my older brother and sister. Now, I sometimes surpassed my sister, but never outshined my older brother. And still don't, I'm a teacher and he's a principal :eek:
Anyways, competition between males is a completely insane thing. As I matured physically, my brothers five years older than me, I started to compete with him and eventually beat him in one on one basketball games. In our twenty's these games would get so heated that they would end in blood. An elbow here and there during the game would lead to fists after the game. Needless to say in our thirty's we no longer play.

(Ill add more to this in a bit, I've got to go, but let me end by saying that I haven't been able to find a group of quote on quote brothers that hasn't been fabricated and fake, but would enjoy being able to form those bonds here at PA and think given the commonalities of interests on this website we all should be able to become closer here with people than say people at our work or neighbors or even some of our friends who just aren't Ito this sort of thing)

Freedom and enlightenment happen when something deep within is let go of.
And that is usually a program that has trapped us in family patterns and that can create these competitive attitudes.

And we can erase it with a single step...I believe this is possible.
Asking oneself the question "what is served by this?" might be enough.

I realized already in my teens that I had to get out of my country, away from my family,
because my sanity would depend on it.
Germany in the 1960s was too confusing for me...too many extremes...fascism, communism, capitalism.
Lots of confused and war-damaged elders.

I would now recommend any young person to travel overseas,
to see how different cultures operate.
Find friends online and invite one another to visit...
it is the best way to see one's own programming and make an objective evaluation...
free from all national or patriotic bias and family indoctrination.

Absolutely agree, i have worked and lived in 3 different countries and we cannot see better our own cultural programming than when we go out of our country. And let me tell you, we do not always find our own people so nice afterward.

In the same line, I would very much like living in the skin of a man for a few months. Would be a great experience, an eye opener I am sure.

ulli
27th July 2013, 23:03
The Bodhisattva is just such a one as you describe here, johnf:


I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.jf

We cannot relate to other human beings unless we can retain some of what makes us human, even as we aspire
to "enlightenment" --whatever that term may mean for us, and I think the meaning of that word changes greatly as we grow...

I was watching this TED talk earlier today

qu7ZpWecIS8

At the risk of unfairly making an example of this man, I will say that I was struck by a couple of things that had little to do with the data he was sharing.

At one point, he was talking about LOL Cats, as a phenomena of the internet community that demonstrates a kind of free sharing, and later in the talk, he disparagingly equates LOL Cats --which he describes as "throwaway" in value --with the erotic novels that resulted when the printing press was first making its appearance.

(You will have to watch the video to understand the full context of these remarks.)

What struck me was the thinly veiled contempt that he displayed when speaking of two demonstrations of humankind's affinity for humor and eroticism, two of the ways in which we are most able to experience our humanness that allows us to release some of the stress and other forms of negative energy that tend to be generated by our existence in this material reality.

Folly (as opposed to seriousness, which is thought of as being more of a male attribute) our kinship to the animal kingdom, and eroticism (usually typified as a more feminine -and untrustworthy-characteristic) are portrayed as trivial and slightly disgusting by this man.
And he never cracks a smile during the whole talk. :mmph:

While the theme of his talk that has to do with building community through generosity and freely sharing, is interesting and admirable, it bothered me that so much of what I think is wonderful about humankind in this talk was being downgraded by this man to something less than worthy--our ability to laugh at ourselves and our natural ability to enjoy and bond via our material bodies.

And that seems to be how humanity in many cultures has gone about handling the erotic and the humorous aspects of our nature- through suppression, and by cheapening and ridiculing.

That is typical of patriarchy, and is no doubt why the male ego is so surprisingly fragile, especially about things that are, by the definitions that patriarchy has imposed upon them, so little worthy of consideration.
(This may have to do with something akin to "womb envy", I suppose.)

But I think we are never be able to be fully human unless we can embrace those aspects of ourselves as well, and to integrate them into our definitions of what is sacred.
Our hearts have to evolve along with our heads, or we will be forever out of balance.

Very keen and interesting observation, you see, even me I have been caught with the macho paradigm here, not making the links you did. You are right about him.

This is great, to be able with the help of another person's input,
arrive at a fresh insight about where one stands.

This is the real value of a discussion forum...having all sides come together and build a discussion
with personal input for other's perusal, no tearing down, only building.
A win-win for all.

johnf
27th July 2013, 23:24
This discussion is getting interesting. It strikes me that some clarification of terminology might be useful at this point.



Patriarchy

Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Misogyny

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterised as a prominent feature of the mythologies of the ancient world as well as various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Kyriarchy

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others. It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy

In my opinion the terminology is important because there is a vast literature of research and writing on just what we are discussing here. It might help to connect and ground our personal stories, thoughts and opinions with some of that theory.

I find Kyriarchy especially interesting. The developer of that term is a radical feminist who claims that we are living in a post-patriarchy world and we must broaden our notions of domination and oppression to include not just gender but race, economic class and others.

I am an old-fashioned feminist but when I came across this concept of "Kyriarchy" it rang some bells for me.

I think things like the definition of Kyriarchy are very important, because they take the gender focus off of the disscusion.
I think the term supressive is very far reaching here.

A very simple definition here of, to push down or hold down. Compression is a form of supression, and in some of the examples of negative female human behavior you can see that a lot. Shaming, judging , etc, to me have this energy, and there is a tendency to see them as Patriarchial, both my Father and Mother did a lot of this sort of thing with the kids, and in my case, I seem to have internalized a lot of it. A common occurence was for them to tag team me with questions, that were designed to get me to say something that was ridicule worthy. If you get someone to reject themselves, and consider themselves lesser or bad, you have a condition that is ripe for programming. So in this case both genders using the supressive techniques to get what they thought was required from me. Needless to say they have mellowed over the years, thank God.

And In my mind this concept applied to energy, core aspects of spirit or source goes very far in characterizing the period of time we have just left.
Been talking to another member via skype, and on seeing this thread he brought up a statement from Eceti , about how yesterday was the first day of the time of the female yesterday.
I had never heard that idea about yesterday though I had heard it was the first day of something new.
I was in a theater yesterday enjoying one of our patriarchal, and mysongynistic institutions watching the new wolverine movie.
The female characters were mainly warrior types, but my fascination to the supporting actresses very interesting face sparked off a quasi visionary experience where I saw an image very like a Zen sumi painting of a mountain horizon with a very large moon above it.
The term Lunar came to mind. And when I was out on a short walk just now , it seemed like everything I looked at had this lunar/silver/spiritual energy to it.
So perhaps the occurence of this thread today is a symptom of this energy?
Ulli since you seem to be well versed in astrology, does any of this make sense to you will all the recent interesting configurations recently?
Perhaps Sunday will be even more interesting.

jf

grannyfranny100
27th July 2013, 23:29
From left field, here is my idea. Learn to tango. At a certain point, the confident male lets the female completely let go with all her wildness and eroticism and is not frightened by it. Other men in the room may be shocked and frightened but also envious of the sensuality this couple has a achieved.

ulli
27th July 2013, 23:48
This discussion is getting interesting. It strikes me that some clarification of terminology might be useful at this point.



Patriarchy

Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Misogyny

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterised as a prominent feature of the mythologies of the ancient world as well as various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Kyriarchy

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others. It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy

In my opinion the terminology is important because there is a vast literature of research and writing on just what we are discussing here. It might help to connect and ground our personal stories, thoughts and opinions with some of that theory.

I find Kyriarchy especially interesting. The developer of that term is a radical feminist who claims that we are living in a post-patriarchy world and we must broaden our notions of domination and oppression to include not just gender but race, economic class and others.

I am an old-fashioned feminist but when I came across this concept of "Kyriarchy" it rang some bells for me.

I think things like the definition of Kyriarchy are very important, because they take the gender focus off of the disscusion.
I think the term supressive is very far reaching here.

A very simple definition here of, to push down or hold down. Compression is a form of supression, and in some of the examples of negative female human behavior you can see that a lot. Shaming, judging , etc, to me have this energy, and there is a tendency to see them as Patriarchial, both my Father and Mother did a lot of this sort of thing with the kids, and in my case, I seem to have internalized a lot of it. A common occurence was for them to tag team me with questions, that were designed to get me to say something that was ridicule worthy. If you get someone to reject themselves, and consider themselves lesser or bad, you have a condition that is ripe for programming. So in this case both genders using the supressive techniques to get what they thought was required from me. Needless to say they have mellowed over the years, thank God.

And In my mind this concept applied to energy, core aspects of spirit or source goes very far in characterizing the period of time we have just left.
Been talking to another member via skype, and on seeing this thread he brought up a statement from Eceti , about how yesterday was the first day of the time of the female yesterday.
I had never heard that idea about yesterday though I had heard it was the first day of something new.
I was in a theater yesterday enjoying one of our patriarchal, and mysongynistic institutions watching the new wolverine movie.
The female characters were mainly warrior types, but my fascination to the supporting actresses very interesting face sparked off a quasi visionary experience where I saw an image very like a Zen sumi painting of a mountain horizon with a very large moon above it.
The term Lunar came to mind. And when I was out on a short walk just now , it seemed like everything I looked at had this lunar/silver/spiritual energy to it.
So perhaps the occurence of this thread today is a symptom of this energy?
Ulli since you seem to be well versed in astrology, does any of this make sense to you will all the recent interesting configurations recently?
Perhaps Sunday will be even more interesting.

jf


Frankly, I hadn't thought about it, but a hexagon formation in the solar system would mean gentle flow..harmony.
fewer clashes.
A good time for building lasting relationships,
well polarized, with roles clearly defined, voluntary input, and zero coercion.

ulli
27th July 2013, 23:52
From left field, here is my idea. Learn to tango. At a certain point, the confident male lets the female completely let go with all her wildness and eroticism and is not frightened by it. Other men in the room may be shocked and frightened but also envious of the sensuality this couple has a achieved.

Love this. Here is my favorite Tango tune:

-xAXksZOL1w

markpierre
28th July 2013, 00:37
I want to know what 'IT' is.

Justintime
28th July 2013, 00:39
Being human and not being competitive is challenging indeed. We compete with our father for our mothers love and attention, with our siblings for both our parents love and attention, in school we compete with our peers for the teachers attention and approval at first, than we compete for the affections of our peers. In athletics we discover that one teams victory is another's defeat. Than we enter the professional world and after discovering that acquiring a job at first means to put on our best and brightest face and selling ourselves so to speak. And while in the working world we constantly compete with others in order to make ourselves feel valuable and worthy. In fact it's unfortunate that our sense of worth, our self esteem comes from feeling as good or superior to others in something. So, its almost a given that we compare ourselves to others, male, female, enlightened, enslaved etc, our sense of worth depends on these comparisons.

And I do have to check my thought processes and motivation here when I post because there are so many bright people here at PA, and at times I feel threatened by that and almost feel like I need to prove myself through making some sort insightful comment at the expense of respecting the integrity of another's post. But, I quickly check myself and just move on. I definitely value PA more as a place to make connections with others and bond over the fact that this is a place where I can share my interests with others, grow and learn. This is certainly more important than that built in desire to prove myself by attacking the beliefs of another.

ulli
28th July 2013, 00:43
I want to know what 'IT' is.

Sorry, I can't help you there. You will have to ask IT.

But of course, you already know. That was just a trick question, wasn't it?
You seem to know about "the field"....

ulli
28th July 2013, 00:58
Being human and not being competitive is challenging indeed. We compete with our father for our mothers love and attention, with our siblings for both our parents love and attention, in school we compete with our peers for the teachers attention and approval at first, than we compete for the affections of our peers. In athletics we discover that one teams victory is another's defeat. Than we enter the professional world and after discovering that acquiring a job at first means to put on our best and brightest face and selling ourselves so to speak. And while in the working world we constantly compete with others in order to make ourselves feel valuable and worthy. In fact it's unfortunate that our sense of worth, our self esteem comes from feeling as good or superior to others in something. So, its almost a given that we compare ourselves to others, male, female, enlightened, enslaved etc, our sense of worth depends on these comparisons.

And I do have to check my thought processes and motivation here when I post because there are so many bright people here at PA, and at times I feel threatened by that and almost feel like I need to prove myself through making some sort insightful comment at the expense of respecting the integrity of another's post. But, I quickly check myself and just move on. I definitely value PA more as a place to make connections with others and bond over the fact that this is a place where I can share my interests with others, grow and learn. This is certainly more important than that built in desire to prove myself by attacking the beliefs of another.

So you started out competitive, but are now keeping it in check, as a matter of personal preference.
Like me, you probably didn't like what you saw when others were being triumphalist.

And this is what I am aiming to explore with this thread...I'm curious what happens in an atmosphere where information interchange is possible without the fear or worry of being ridiculed.
My guess is that even those who have such a need to denigrate others or rely exclusively on a self image of being antagonistic will then learn to express themselves from the core of their being, and not simply as reactive to whatever negativity they perceive in another. This can be learnt, and the more people try to communicate like this the more space each has to experiment with their own creative thinking processes.
All can then enjoy the product of these fresh ideas which will inevitably spring forth.

Justintime
28th July 2013, 01:10
Yes indeed Ulli, I was born and raised in a very competitive environment and the need to evaluate my self worth based on comparisons with others can still be strong. And yes, I did not and do not enjoy the process of competition, especially in regards to self esteem. And I'm in the process of redefining my self worth based on well exploring what it is to be me exactly.

spiritguide
28th July 2013, 01:34
Dualism creates flow, it is the flow that we must tame. Try being a left handed person in a predominately right handed world, the lessons there are right minded. Am bi-dexterous folks have managed to tame the difference. As it applies to all theories order is necessary and the dictates are to lead, follow or get out of the way. We can choose one of two things along our path, be part of the problem or part of the solution, it is up to us to choose wisely.Being different is not the problem, rather the lack of respect for the difference is. IMHO

Peace!

NancyV
28th July 2013, 02:16
Male and female agendas and traits differ because we have different survival imperatives. Males are competitive and aggressive in order to be able to protect their women and children from harm, often from other males, and in order to hunt for food, etc. They are generally stronger, faster and more fearless. Females are more nurturing because they bear children and have to keep the helpless baby alive until it’s able to survive on its own. If we weren’t so nurturing the human species would become extinct.

I have always preferred Alpha males to more androgynous type males and 3 of my 4 husbands have been alpha types, one was more male/female balanced. A strong balanced woman almost always prefers a strong alpha male unless she is an overbearing, dominant control freak type, which many feminists are, who wishes to have her men, including her sons, accede to her wishes and dictates. As a strong woman it has always been easy for me to control less dominant men (and quite tempting), but I usually dropped that type of man fairly quickly, except for my one more peaceful husband who is the father of my children. We lasted for 16 years and he was a great father.

I find alpha males to be totally delightful ! Probably many women just don’t understand how to nurture a very strong alpha male but feel threatened, so they like to disparage them. This seems to me like a passive/aggressive control agenda. Make them feel guilty and brutish and you can control them better if they buy into the guilt bullcrap. All these alpha males need is a LOT of love and attention and gradually they begin to relax, but they are there to take care of a woman if they are needed in a survival situation. There may come a day when women would WISH they had an alpha male, like if one finds themselves in a war situation or a natural disaster.

We still have agendas and genders in the lower astral dimensions, unless one is just passing through without indulging in the games that are as prevalent there as they are here. One doesn’t become truly genderless unless one has gone beyond agendas and gender identification. If you’re living in or stuck in the lower dimensions, including this physical one, the chances of being without gender are highly unlikely. Androgeny still relates to gender and is much different than being beyond gender identification of any kind. When I hear of a man becoming more androgynous I think of a man who is not really a MAN but a wimp. May god please save me from androgynous males and control freak females who wish to emasculate their sons and mates!!

Since I am living on the earth-plane where we happen to have genders, I choose to live consciously as a powerful female who appreciates powerful, competitive and aggressive males. When I leave my body and travel in other dimensions, I can be either female or male or androgynous or beyond gender, depending on the dimension I’m in and the game that is being played. The Source/God has no gender. It is neither more female nor male nor androgynous. It simply IS. Only WE love to revel in our divisions, that’s the game here in the creation and it’s FUN. So we might as well enjoy our differences and divisions because as long as we are separated from the Source we ARE divided, or I should say we are conscious of being divided or separate…. although we are actually always one with the Source and with all other beings. We just are not often, if ever, conscious that we are all things at all times.

markpierre
28th July 2013, 02:48
I want to know what 'IT' is.

Sorry, I can't help you there. You will have to ask IT.

But of course, you already know. That was just a trick question, wasn't it?
You seem to know about "the field"....

Yup. You're right. I know a bit about spiritual arrogance too. It's a slippery slope atop which I presume 'it' is patiently waiting.
Spiritual discoveries have an interesting way of leveling the field a little with the dominant thinking of the world. That can be a catalyst,
even if illusory. There's a tremendous amount of conditioning involved in keeping a heart centered male identity safe and even surviving
where it seems to have no value. It's not valued by the prevalent male mind, nor the prevalent female.
You'll never hear 'well let it die' from any source outside of our own slow and precariously developing authenticity.
It's not that it's developing as much as the Self is being allowed to address the battlefield, and that I regard as Grace, not personal development.
I remember that no matter how well trained we were as soldiers, it was when we gave up hope for personal survival that we were able to accomplish the mission.

Patience is an important part of the recipe. And I tend to trust the female, wherever it's honestly represented, to help with that.

mosquito
28th July 2013, 02:59
Interesting.

What saddens me is that so many women, especially in the West, have chosen to adopt male behaviour and dress it up as "feminism". Women who have the gift of life, joining the military, "serving" their country, gleefully torturing and killing people. Oh well.

Nancy - I like your post. Though far form being androgenous or a wimp, I have always had a very well developed feminine side: when I moved in with my second wife, she was the one with all the hammers, drills and suchlike, I moved in with a pair of red shoes and a box of essential oils !!

And that leads me to what my spiritual journey has been about for the last 10 years - finding the strong, aggresive male aspect, WITHOUT it developing into some macho crap. I'm learning (I think) to face all my repressed anger, not back away from it or pretend it isn't there; To examine my role as an adult male, in society, and especially in relation to women and children; To be self-assured and confident as a man. And NO it isn't as easy as some of the women here may think.

I haven't seen my father since I was 12. My mother taught me to hate him, told me all manner of things about him which were simply untrue. Consequently, I didn't really have a father, and no male role models whatsoever. So I find myself in the position of having to invent myself, to make it all up as I go along.

I love the soft, kind gentle nature which is me at my best, and so do my girlfriends and other female acquaintances. Little girls adore me, which is my indicator that I'm doing alright. I have no intention of ditching my nature just so I can become a he-man. But I'm learning to balance it with a bit more decisiveness, a bit more responsibility, and a bit more authoritativeness (and I tell you, I have BIIIIIIG issues with authority). It would be nice to think that I could find a streak of practicality somewhere, but that seems a lot more elusive !! :rolleyes:

I remember an intensive course I was doing about 10 years ago, sitting in a 1-to-1 session with a woman friend (feminist, lesbian, tough) who'd been raped by her father. I found myself sitting listening in a state of pure power and strength (which is nothing to do with overpowering people), and afterwards she told me I was so manly. That was the first and last time anyone has said that !

We can get this right. Men becoming wimps and women becoming macho is not the answer though.

onawah
28th July 2013, 04:07
I like that term Kyriarchy too.
I have puzzled over the differences in the various kinds of tyranny, and the thing that strikes me most about Kyriarchy, as seen in, for example, Great Britain among the royalty, is the way they (the royalty) can arbitrarily and sometimes even just at a personal whim, decide to raise up or put down an individual or group.
Such as when the Queen decides to confer a Knighthood on someone; even though there may be many more individuals who are more deserving, it is apparently very much up to the Queen as to who will receive the prize.
(Though no doubt this is not as much the case as in centuries gone by.)
I would imagine that arbitrariness would keep everyone in the "ranks" feeling rather uncertain and off balance.
A situation which would only be to the advantage of the royalty in terms of power and control, of course...:moony:

The term "feminism" is a curious one.
Paradoxically, it's usually used to describe a woman who is claiming the right to manifest her masculine side, not her feminine side.
In a parallel universe, I can imagine it might be used to describe a woman who is exercising her right to be soft, receptive, domestic and maternal. :lol:




Kyriarchy

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others. It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy


In my opinion the terminology is important because there is a vast literature of research and writing on just what we are discussing here. It might help to connect and ground our personal stories, thoughts and opinions with some of that theory.

I find Kyriarchy especially interesting. The developer of that term is a radical feminist who claims that we are living in a post-patriarchy world and we must broaden our notions of domination and oppression to include not just gender but race, economic class and others.

I am an old-fashioned feminist but when I came across this concept of "Kyriarchy" it rang some bells for me.[/QUOTE]

ulli
28th July 2013, 04:27
Actually, the proposals for knighthood come from the ranks of the people,
who can start the campaigns, and then the Prime Minister brings the matter to the attention of the Queen.
Right now there is a campaign to get Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin the Sir title...

Anyway, back to topic...to have spiritually evolved males consult and brainstorm together without
putting each other down....

firstlook
28th July 2013, 05:17
Well if the topic is male hierarchy, I guess I would have to bring up the common discussion of Ego/Identity. But that's pretty well understood in this crowd. So If I Have to dig deeper about this (as a "male") I guess the survival part of me always wants to make sure point is taken with equal consideration whether wrong or right simply for the fact that it would make me feel safer somehow. Of course this low vibrational output, but this is the issue whenever I come into disagreement or any sort of critical debate between myself and another.

I try to remember that "I" whether im a guy or not is a changing construct of ideas. ANd even those ideas are based on a complex pillar of perception of how, when, and where I grew up in life. That isn't to say this is the end all of my journey but it is, IMO, one of the biggest mountains to climb in communicating and living more peacefully and even more importantly, honestly.

I like to really forget "who" I am when discussing particularly on this forum in order to take in the most amount of information without any gut reactions to my day to day survival, which is in turn ironic I suppose considering hopefully that's exactly what all this information goes into helping me get used to. Despite many popular spiritual beliefs I think most occurrences on this planet are still based on very low vibrations of safety. I don't find shame in that when I can because it grounds me to look at things this way. I want others to feel safe and that usually mean debating about different situations and allowing them to naturally find their boundries in order to allow the more creative avenues of thought put them together. Sometimes the truth hurts for both the other party im talking with and also myself. But I like that saying that if it hurts, your doing something right. You feel like your releasing certain things and growing because of it. As a Male, I imagine this process is easier for women simply because of the lower vibrational constructs in which relationships have been previously formed in the past. But that is changing quickly IMO.

Marin
28th July 2013, 05:49
I just read this passage last night and thought I'd share. This material comes from Mercedes Kirkel's book entitled, Mary Magdalene Beckons, Join the river of Love. Meredes channels Mary Magdalene. In one of the sessions Mary Magdalene states:

"Now the time has changed as we are entering into a new age, the age of Aquarius. It has been said by many that this is the age of equality between the Masculine and the Feminine, and this is true. And for this shift to occur, there is a particular kind of passage required at this time. It is though you are giving birth to a new age. As has always been the case with birth, this is uniquely the domain of the Feminine. It is the feminine that must come into the fore and take the lead for this birth into the age of equality to occur."
......

"For women it is a call to assume your power, the Feminine powers. The Feminine is the power of love and strength. The Feminine is the compliment to the Masculine. Both have their strengths and both are required for wholeness. The feminine brings the life energy, love, aliveness, wisdom, faith, receptivity to the Divine, feeling and inclusiveness. The Masculine brings insight, understanding, awareness, direction, tracking or maintaining awareness, attaining goals and carrying out the divine plan.

Each person contains all of these qualities within them, as we all contain the Masculine and Feminine within. And most people also resonate more fully with one or more of these qualities, the Masculine or the Feminine. And so one option is to manifest this in life through sacred relationships with a partner.....A sacred partnership is a kind of alchemy. .....This does not mean that everyone needs to find a partner. Everyone can find a Sacred Relationship within themselves."

Rahkyt
28th July 2013, 05:58
I think a lot of it has to do with perception. The attitudes that develop as we live our lives, bounded by gender roles in family and society and by the parameters of our natal charts.

As a case in point, my High School Basketball coach hated my guts.

I was pretty good for a rail-thin 6'3 Forward in a small league in Washington State. MVP senior year, All Conference, our team took 2nd in League. I was the go-to guy when the game went down to the wire. But, I didn't have the killer instinct. We could lose on the road, I'd cry bitterly in the locker room with my teammates (one of the few private spaces that Alpha males can show real emotion and it's ok; i'm probably breaking an unwritten code by mentioning it here, even decades later) and then release it, laughing and joking and playing loud music on the bus half an hour later, helping to elevate the mood of the team, but pissing off the coach to no end; who'd've rather seen us sitting sullen, angry and determined never to lose again, all the way home.

I understand that now. I also understand who I am now. Bounded by gender roles, yet astrologically determined by the majority of my natal chart signs being in the feminine aspect. I was trained diligently through childhood to be a superior athlete, but was limited in my effectiveness by my lack of innate competitiveness. And, of course, it has shown up in all other aspects of my life. The inner journeying that typifies the feminine signs has been the path that I have followed, rather than the external projection of the male signs. I do what I have to do only when I have to do it and only as much as is necessary. Never to excess, to the extent where reaching some pinnacle of material success has ever been an overt goal. Also, I relate very well to and have been very successful with women, which has been another count against me in the Male Court of Patriarchial Opinion.

"Isn't that guy gay? What do they see in him??? He must be in the closet." :)

This is my past, processed, owned and distant. But how does this part of my life story relate to the OP of the thread?

It is very difficult for Alpha males to relate to other males who are not so hormonally or natally driven. This point has been made previously in this thread. Even though I have been very successful in male-dominated sports, competitive in academic and social venues to the extent necessary to achieve respect and my aims, I am looked upon as strangely different. Even though I was a successful athlete in Basketball and Track & Field, I was still looked upon as strangely different. Well, of course, now I know that was because I was strange compared to them. So that remains the case for others with life-paths similar to mine, who have been considered strangely different by the people in their lives, and this remains so even among the males that have sought that higher understanding and have had experiences that have revealed to them some aspects of the deeper, underlying reality.

The personality complex and the natal programming are difficult to transcend. The former, just a wee bit easier as it is micro-determined by family and society, while the latter is macro-determined by the planets and the stars. It is one of the last things to go, on the journey of spiritual evolution. From my understanding, transcending the zodiac, being able to manifest any aspect of any sign in the Now, living fluidly and not being representative of any one sign or combination thereof, instead, encompassing them all within the personal expression as needed and required by the moment, is one of the goals and symptomatic of truly being one of those who reaches that stage of being that some dare call enlightenment.

It's almost a dirty word here. To say it, instantly invites derision and dismissal and rolling eyes behind dark, anonymous screens and words typed into the void. Or, more likely, silent animus directed at the one so identified. Either way, more indicative of the state of mind and spirit of the individual making the judgement than that of the person they're considering. To claim it? There, the competition continues. Despite the fact that it is real and beyond petty argumentation, despite the reality that this is indeed what happens whenever the topic is broached. The truth of the matter is that there are some here, fewer now than previously, who are well upon that pathless path. Sharing that reality with others in venues where it is not possible to hear the words, to see the face and expressions, to be able to read the body language, to be able to feel the melding of auras as vibrations interact and resonance is achieved, or not, producing information on multiple levels of perceptual reality both material and ethereal.

Now that's real.

Things might be a bit different, then, for men who can find common cause through biophysical resonance, rather than merely words on a screen. Real interactions, real brotherhood, between men who recognize themselves in each other and the humanity that binds them. Rather than just someone on the other side.

onawah
28th July 2013, 05:58
Apologies for not investigating further into how the Knighthood thing works.
Bad example, but the idea about arbitrariness was sound, I think.
(But also, admittedly, a bit off-topic! ) :focus:

ulli
28th July 2013, 13:20
Apologies for not investigating further into how the Knighthood thing works.
Bad example, but the idea about arbitrariness was sound, I think.
(But also, admittedly, a bit off-topic! ) :focus:

No need to apologize...I had meant myself when I said back to topic, not you.
The idea of arbitrariness fits right in, as does everything fit, if we look at the universe from a wholeness perspective.

Since I'm a person who prefers focus over scattered, and creativity over destructiveness,
I find that my shadow self is in both cases the opposite,
but my wholeness perspective demands that I permit the occasional deviation into areas that appear to be off-topic.

This is very hard to explain, and in the past I have confused people,
even though I have it very clear in my head, like a formula.

The initial thought when creating the title of this thread came from
hearing about a study done with a group of young girls and another group of boys, same age as the girls.

Half a dozen of each were brought together in a room, no one had met the others before, and were filmed over thirty minutes.
The girls all came together, formed a circle and came to a consensus in a very short time.
The boys on the other hand created a pecking order, using insults, boasting even shoving, and in the same period had established an alpha male, his sidekick, and the others in gradually declining lower positions.

So I had noticed how several of the males here seemed to be playing this typical hierarchy establishing game and expressed a wish to see more mutual respect, more agreeing, even more friendship bonds.

RunningDeer
28th July 2013, 13:30
The initial thought when creating the title of this thread came from
hearing about a study done with a group of young girls and another group of boys, same age as the girls.

Half a dozen of each were brought together in a room, no one had met the others before, and were filmed over thirty minutes.
The girls all came together, formed a circle and came to a consensus in a very short time.
The boys on the other hand created a pecking order, using insults, boasting even shoving, and in the same period had established an alpha male, his sidekick, and the others in gradually declining lower positions.

So I had noticed how several of the males here seemed to be playing this typical hierarchy establishing game and expressed a wish to see more mutual respect, more agreeing, even more friendship bonds.

:bump:
Thanks, Ulli. This is helpful information for the clarity of the thread title.

ulli
28th July 2013, 13:34
I think a lot of it has to do with perception. The attitudes that develop as we live our lives, bounded by gender roles in family and society and by the parameters of our natal charts.

As a case in point, my High School Basketball coach hated my guts.

I was pretty good for a rail-thin 6'3 Forward in a small league in Washington State. MVP senior year, All Conference, our team took 2nd in League. I was the go-to guy when the game went down to the wire. But, I didn't have the killer instinct. We could lose on the road, I'd cry bitterly in the locker room with my teammates (one of the few private spaces that Alpha males can show real emotion and it's ok; i'm probably breaking an unwritten code by mentioning it here, even decades later) and then release it, laughing and joking and playing loud music on the bus half an hour later, helping to elevate the mood of the team, but pissing off the coach to no end; who'd've rather seen us sitting sullen, angry and determined never to lose again, all the way home.

I understand that now. I also understand who I am now. Bounded by gender roles, yet astrologically determined by the majority of my natal chart signs being in the feminine aspect. I was trained diligently through childhood to be a superior athlete, but was limited in my effectiveness by my lack of innate competitiveness. And, of course, it has shown up in all other aspects of my life. The inner journeying that typifies the feminine signs has been the path that I have followed, rather than the external projection of the male signs. I do what I have to do only when I have to do it and only as much as is necessary. Never to excess, to the extent where reaching some pinnacle of material success has ever been an overt goal. Also, I relate very well to and have been very successful with women, which has been another count against me in the Male Court of Patriarchial Opinion.

"Isn't that guy gay? What do they see in him??? He must be in the closet." :)

This is my past, processed, owned and distant. But how does this part of my life story relate to the OP of the thread?

It is very difficult for Alpha males to relate to other males who are not so hormonally or natally driven. This point has been made previously in this thread. Even though I have been very successful in male-dominated sports, competitive in academic and social venues to the extent necessary to achieve respect and my aims, I am looked upon as strangely different. Even though I was a successful athlete in Basketball and Track & Field, I was still looked upon as strangely different. Well, of course, now I know that was because I was strange compared to them. So that remains the case for others with life-paths similar to mine, who have been considered strangely different by the people in their lives, and this remains so even among the males that have sought that higher understanding and have had experiences that have revealed to them some aspects of the deeper, underlying reality.

The personality complex and the natal programming are difficult to transcend. The former, just a wee bit easier as it is micro-determined by family and society, while the latter is macro-determined by the planets and the stars. It is one of the last things to go, on the journey of spiritual evolution. From my understanding, transcending the zodiac, being able to manifest any aspect of any sign in the Now, living fluidly and not being representative of any one sign or combination thereof, instead, encompassing them all within the personal expression as needed and required by the moment, is one of the goals and symptomatic of truly being one of those who reaches that stage of being that some dare call enlightenment.

It's almost a dirty word here. To say it, instantly invites derision and dismissal and rolling eyes behind dark, anonymous screens and words typed into the void. Or, more likely, silent animus directed at the one so identified. Either way, more indicative of the state of mind and spirit of the individual making the judgement than that of the person they're considering. To claim it? There, the competition continues. Despite the fact that it is real and beyond petty argumentation, despite the reality that this is indeed what happens whenever the topic is broached. The truth of the matter is that there are some here, fewer now than previously, who are well upon that pathless path. Sharing that reality with others in venues where it is not possible to hear the words, to see the face and expressions, to be able to read the body language, to be able to feel the melding of auras as vibrations interact and resonance is achieved, or not, producing information on multiple levels of perceptual reality both material and ethereal.

Now that's real.

Things might be a bit different, then, for men who can find common cause through biophysical resonance, rather than merely words on a screen. Real interactions, real brotherhood, between men who recognize themselves in each other and the humanity that binds them. Rather than just someone on the other side.

Great sharing there, Rahkyt, a post loaded with truth and info about how identities are carved.
It cannot be stressed enough how much the study of one's astrological chart can help with enlightenment,
and explain the different behaviors in ourselves as well as others. It kept me in balance when I was giving up over thirty years ago, thinking everyone was nuts.
Astrology has helped me become much more compassionate, not only with other people but also myself. I used to be too hard on myself, to the point of adding unnecessarily to my already high anxiety levels.
(Anxiety is a Capricorn trait)
Anyway, interesting about those locker room tears. And I'm glad that you lack the killer instinct.

Flash
28th July 2013, 14:02
Thanks Rakhyt to have the guts to say it clearly


It's almost a dirty word here. To say it, instantly invites derision and dismissal and rolling eyes behind dark, anonymous screens and words typed into the void. Or, more likely, silent animus directed at the one so identified. Either way, more indicative of the state of mind and spirit of the individual making the judgement than that of the person they're considering. To claim it? There, the competition continues. Despite the fact that it is real and beyond petty argumentation, despite the reality that this is indeed what happens whenever the topic is broached. The truth of the matter is that there are some here, fewer now than previously, who are well upon that pathless path. Sharing that reality with others in venues where it is not possible to hear the words, to see the face and expressions, to be able to read the body language, to be able to feel the melding of auras as vibrations interact and resonance is achieved, or not, producing information on multiple levels of perceptual reality both material and ethereal.


It is as if because everything has to pass through analysis for conspiracy (head trip) (in a conspiracy forum ;)), anything not analysable through these standards is untrue or unworthy.

Also, although some people maybe have a kind of "religious" aura, they are however sometimes far ahead in the path of self discovery and are, in my opinion, worth listening to. Yet, we toss them aside. For me, the deep mystical path of true Scientology or Buddhist mysticism or Christian mysticism for example are examples of difficult but worthwhile paths on the way to enlightenment. (all, by the way, are on the side tracks of their own religion, barely accepted by it). They are not enlightenment as such, they are posts on the path and as such, worth looking at. Yet, we often dismiss them as not having their place on this forum for fright of it becoming a non rational place. Thus the ostracizing of the word and posts geared towards enlightenment.

Rakhyt, as far as I am concerned, by your guts right here, you have just shown us what a real man, true to himself, can be. Thanks.

Ernie Nemeth
28th July 2013, 16:15
Raykyt, that was an amazing post, hedged as it was in your own manly prose. And I would like to add my support as well. I too am working on female aspects in this life. I personally believe I usually manifest in female bodies, choosing this life as one of the rare lifes to try out being male. I was going to say "It is very hard being male..." but realized the pun of it, so I won't say that.
I have no killer instinct at all, often throwing the game to my friends because they want it so much more than I do anyway. The violence in men is unfathomable to me as well. Threatening does not work well on me. It only makes me loose my control and see red. Threat I immediately escalate to violence, choosing direct confrontation over fear tactics. Threaten me and I plant my feet and prepare for battle. I do not cow, I do not give ground. In other words, I do not play the game of determining the pecking order between alpha males. Leave me alone, let me ignore you and go my way or we have a big problem, no matter your size. So no, I do not fit in in the usual male accepted mode of interaction.
I much more relate to women who I find are often far more rational and often even more intelligent (although that last is probably biased). My best intellectual conversations were always with females. In my experience, men are harder to convince and do not change their opinions in the face of new facts near as well as women do.
Can't think of anything else or a good way to end this piece so I'll leave it at that.

gripreaper
28th July 2013, 16:51
look, even this iconic photo from the return of the men after WW2 in now being emulated by cats!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554789_492229214177265_1409567337_n.jpg

RunningDeer
28th July 2013, 16:57
The initial thought when creating the title of this thread came from hearing about a study done with a group of young girls and another group of boys, same age as the girls.

Half a dozen of each were brought together in a room, no one had met the others before, and were filmed over thirty minutes. The girls all came together, formed a circle and came to a consensus in a very short time.

The boys on the other hand created a pecking order, using insults, boasting even shoving, and in the same period had established an alpha male, his sidekick, and the others in gradually declining lower positions.

So I had noticed how several of the males here seemed to be playing this typical hierarchy establishing game and expressed a wish to see more mutual respect, more agreeing, even more friendship bonds.


I had noticed how several of the males here seemed to be playing this typical hierarchy establishing game and expressed a wish to see more mutual respect, more agreeing, even more friendship bonds.

People create the hierarchy. Part of the responsibility of intelligent beings is to present the material in a way that the readers understand.

My observation is that both male and female create the hierarchy. There are times when the reader asks the poster for clarification. They are succinct the second time. My question is why not to begin with? Another question is how many agree with the ‘garble d gook’, and hit the thank you button? It reinforces more of the same.

The posters that write with anger and patronizing attitude, I skip over. Though, I’ll revisit what they have to say for several reasons: I may have been overly sensitive, or they’ve had a bad day or they/we’ve grown in character. My loss if there’s valuable information. But I’d rather less factoids and come away with harmony while I visit on the forum. There are plenty of intelligent, creative, folks with heart intention to share.

Bit off topic but something that smacks at me: I struggle with myself when I judge others that judge others.

There’s no magic formula on how to be there in support of another that’s getting pummeled (subtle or not) vs. to allow that person to stand ground and speak for him/herself. As in life, I’ll continue to stand by the person’s right to share, but it’s been with some cost.

Unless one is a paid poke-poke, there’s something of merit in what we all share. For the opposers, why not point out where they are in agreement and then go into where they differ? Some may say it’s game playing. Tell it like it is. Like it or not, this is who I am. Booyah!!!

Yeah, I get it. Respectful communications work for me.

DNA
28th July 2013, 18:15
I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.


I Think this is especially true in day to day life for folks. It's the whole Matrix Movie and the agent smith philosophy. Here you will be having a casual conversation with somone, and somehow through mutual interest you both went "there". An hour or so later the person returns with a completely different closed minded view and seeks to ridicule you or attack you. It's as if the initial conversation went well, then their paradigm which was prepared to bend or even break issues out a distress signal and their social programming kicks in and the paradigm regains full strength and takes over the individual and prepells them to go and attack the person who was almost responsible for the paradigm changing.

I sometimes think this is a real entitiy. I think some of these social planted paradigms are in fact alive, dark entities as you say.




Half a dozen of each were brought together in a room, no one had met the others before, and were filmed over thirty minutes.
The girls all came together, formed a circle and came to a consensus in a very short time.
The boys on the other hand created a pecking order, using insults, boasting even shoving, and in the same period had established an alpha male, his sidekick, and the others in gradually declining lower positions.


Look, I understand what you are trying to say in terms of the Avalon community. And I suppose there could be some truth to it.
But I don't see this as the norm in society at large.
You ever see the movie "mean girls"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkQ0szdOwyQ

Growing up I had a hard core group of friends,there were about six of us and we would do anything for one another. Yes we would rip on eachother from time to time but it was more a show of endearment than anything else. It was as if we were saying to one another, we are close, I can say rude things to you and you me because we are like family. There was a difference between rudeness within the group and something said in public in front of strangers. There were rules.



I was always perplexed at how I did not see this in women.
As a matter of fact, it was always my perception that women viewed eachother as competition in the age old game of "who is the hottest".
There is even a reality star who has turned this mantra into fame and fortune.
Where men will watch sports, women watch a lot of these reality shows where other woman have leveraged their hotness into celebrity.

I understand applying your theory to this forum. But in general, I think you have it backwards. In society at large, men tend to get along better with one another than women do.

This is what I have perceived anyway. :nerd:

Sebastion
28th July 2013, 19:06
You might want to look more closely at their mind/wetico for some answers as opposed to dark entities.





I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.


I Think this is especially true in day to day life for folks. It's the whole Matrix Movie and the agent smith philosophy. Here you will be having a casual conversation with somone, and somehow through mutual interest you both went "there". An hour or so later the person returns with a completely different closed minded view and seeks to ridicule you or attack you. It's as if the initial conversation went well, then their paradigm which was prepared to bend or even break issues out a distress signal and their social programming kicks in and the paradigm regains full strength and takes over the individual and prepells them to go and attack the person who was almost responsible for the paradigm changing.

I sometimes think this is a real entitiy. I think some of these social planted paradigms are in fact alive, dark entities as you say.

DNA
28th July 2013, 19:22
You might want to look more closely at their mind/wetico for some answers as opposed to dark entities.


I think culture is possibly a dark entity. I think patriotism is a dark entity. I will use a tool video to explain what I'm saying as quickly as possible.
The lyrics of this song talk about watching the war on Iraq on TV. The lyrics state how confusing it is that guilt is not being felt while watching another culture experience such violence. Now vissually you see a giant tripod monster that seems to be connected to the televevision and in turn to the viewers. The viewer realizes this is wrong, he goes within and activates his own sense of autonomy, doing this deactivates the tripod monster and kills it's personal connection to the indiviudual.
When this takes place the individual goes through a metamorphisis, and expands spiritually.



When we look at the ancient sage of old who seekes enlightenment in a cave in the mountains, it wasn't that the cave has any inherently enlightening qualities, it is that society must be escaped for a while in order for it to be purged.

Anyway, it's just a thought, don't send your agent smith after me. :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb88usOBud0

skippy
28th July 2013, 20:03
Interesting thread, taking things to new levels.. Thanks Uli. Here a picture with lots of symbols. Alchemical wedding, coincidentia oppositorum (http://www.aip.org.uk/docs/aippub_coincidenceofopposites_dh.pdf), union of opposites.

http://clavielle.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/the_androgyne.png

ulli
28th July 2013, 20:42
Forgive me for not replying to each and every posts, as I am busy with family obligations today..
There is tons of other stuff to do. Barely finding the time to read.

But the main thing is in the sharing and exploring and you don't need me for that.
Always remember the larger context, the world situation, and purpose of our mission here...
Not only are we here to learn, but also to act, to share our knowledge, to correct major errors while we still can.
If we can't do something by ourselves, let us find champions to help us.
Not to create moneymaking ventures, but to get a job done that has the lives of millions depend on it.

johnf
28th July 2013, 22:09
You might want to look more closely at their mind/wetico for some answers as opposed to dark entities.


I think culture is possibly a dark entity. I think patriotism is a dark entity. I will use a tool video to explain what I'm saying as quickly as possible.
The lyrics of this song talk about watching the war on Iraq on TV. The lyrics state how confusing it is that guilt is not being felt while watching another culture experience such violence. Now vissually you see a giant tripod monster that seems to be connected to the televevision and in turn to the viewers. The viewer realizes this is wrong, he goes within and activates his own sense of autonomy, doing this deactivates the tripod monster and kills it's personal connection to the indiviudual.
When this takes place the individual goes through a metamorphisis, and expands spiritually.



When we look at the ancient sage of old who seekes enlightenment in a cave in the mountains, it wasn't that the cave has any inherently enlightening qualities, it is that society must be escaped for a while in order for it to be purged.

Anyway, it's just a thought, don't send your agent smith after me. :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb88usOBud0

Things like culture, and patriotism are basically neutral things, yet are things that have come into being for very good reasons.
They can be (and have been for a long time in civilizations on the planet), used as tools for archontic control.
In the long run, I think we will be able to look back and see archons as tools that came into being for good purposes, but because of the amount of attachment to certain outcomes, (such as certain groups running things for ever), they have been used to dark ends.
Culture, is a word that means to grow, we define things in certain ways to provide structure and organization that help everyone communicate better, and move ahead together.
When things get to the point where the enforcement becomes too exaggerated, and violent, the culture takes on a dark color.
Patriotism means devoted love and defense of ones country. If this is real it is the love and defense of the principles of truth that the country was founded on. If those principles were limited, or deliberate lies, patriotism would involve changing those agreements to fit a greater truth.
When patriotism becomes allegiance and obedience to selfish rulers, it becomes a force of destruction.

It seems anything that can be name has a positive and negative pole, and whatever the subject, proper balance of the basic principles are the most important aspect of the discussion.

The subject of integration of male and female principles, points to a very central issue, that in the case of , lets call it western civilization(to put a name on a culture), the male principle has been so overemphasized, it threatens every living thing, some even say the rest of creation and I happen to agree with that idea.
The balancing of these principles in the external world is going to require some intense participation by those who have balanced them within themselves.
One aspect of the "feminine" that is very helpful is to acknowledge and encourage, the very real parts of
the various cultures on the planet, as well as enough acceptance of other cultures so each can use what others have proven to work.

I think the community of Avalon, the Avalonic culture that exists here is not only the basic subject of this thread as I see it, but is one of many microcosms where we can accomplish some balancing on a community level of these two sides of the reality coin.
And that I think will spread primarily on an invisible level, but also visibly through Avalons connections with other cultures/communities/nations.
This is a timely subject.

jf

Nanoo Nanoo
28th July 2013, 22:28
I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further, modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen.

The Here and Now thread has been fairly successful at this, real friendships have developed there; one only has to look at the statistics to see that this formula of equality has worked very well.

But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders,
establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

Not sure if these critics were objecting to the enlightened male's overconfident style, and wanted to teach him a useful lesson to improve his teaching methods, or if they were merely jealous. Self-image has a lot to do with this need to never appear naive, or gullible, and so it's often an automatic response to tear down another guy, often in the name of "healthy skepticism".

I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.

But back to the lack of team spirit here. There is yet another aspect to this.

Even those males who have reached a higher level of integrity often still see themselves as unique. Maybe they have spent all of their time getting their message out, writing books, and have thus failed to discover that in the larger community the same awakening and enlightenment that happened to them has also happened to many, many others, and increasingly so. It is now becoming a world-wide phenomenon.
Every video talk that I have seen, done by a man who has come across some major universe secret, reveals this flaw of competitiveness in the male psyche, and their vanity.
They all seem to believe that they are on their own with their discoveries.

This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.

The search for truth ought to lead to agreement, not further fragmentations.
Only then can a true force be established that will dissolve the hierarchy of black-ops and high-tech armed tax collectors.

I must agree with you Ulli , what an awesome thread !

most of my support here has been 60% woman 40 % man if i were to split it up. That lends to your argument. Most of my opposition has been 60% man 40% woman. mind you i dont feel i get that much opposition , not being special .. on the other hand whom i have opposed has nevr been gender based but rather content only as a trigger.

Ulli do you think this gets back to genetics ? Men have their competitive survival/ provider instinct . While women instinctively or traditionally ( arguably waining in this trait ) as Nurturer or Grower of the gardens ?

If i may expand lately in my own relationship i was hugely afraid to find my partner was a closet feminist .. this truly put my entire life into a spin. when i realised this was her secret i also realised why the relationship was being so difficult to just get along with our traditional roles. it felt un natural.

interestingly in reaching out to friends , men have been most supportive in discussing this and women just brush it off .. even very close female friends tend to leave it well alone ... hmmm not all but most. The one or two women that did want to genuinely discuss it with me were hugely opposed to the feminist movement interestingly.

im not trying to turn this around on you , im genuinely interested in this thread.

I am so with you on the equality thing. I truly admire capable women. Women with a " Can Do " attitude , take the bull by the horns and lead as well as follow and also walk side by side truly get my antlers hummin ! I remember going to a Top Gear Live show .. Audi was the major sponsor and the opening act was an Audi A3 doing some seriously crazy stunts and full on driving skills ... then the car skidded sideways perfectly in the middle of the stadium .. the lights lit up the car and a woman in a cat suit got out remioved her helmet to show a beautiful green eyes woman with long black hair .. like a Gypsy !

man i wanted to marry her that instant ! woo hoo ! that was truly sexy ! and i say that not in an obgective way but as a manner to show what is attractive to equality based men. Your cheauvanist pig types would find that insulting where as the equality based men would find a capable woman very attractive indeed.

In speaking to a friend of mine years ago who is a very powerful and successful business woman confided in me that she could not find a man to date her because they were intimidated by her powerful nature .. i told her that she hadnt actually met a real man yet, just a lot of pussies lol ...

When i told her i found her strong nature actually quite attractive she strangely recoiled .. later she confided in me , she realises she finds men that dont find her intimidating as intimidating ...

hmmm

Women dealing with their new found strengths will always have a teething period. I say go for it ! we real men love a strong woman.. but please please please dont ever stop doing what you do best and that is Nurture as the mother instincts .. we all need someone to cuddle and id prefer it to be a woman.

Naniu

ulli
28th July 2013, 23:38
I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.


I Think this is especially true in day to day life for folks. It's the whole Matrix Movie and the agent smith philosophy. Here you will be having a casual conversation with somone, and somehow through mutual interest you both went "there". An hour or so later the person returns with a completely different closed minded view and seeks to ridicule you or attack you. It's as if the initial conversation went well, then their paradigm which was prepared to bend or even break issues out a distress signal and their social programming kicks in and the paradigm regains full strength and takes over the individual and prepells them to go and attack the person who was almost responsible for the paradigm changing.

I sometimes think this is a real entitiy. I think some of these social planted paradigms are in fact alive, dark entities as you say.




Half a dozen of each were brought together in a room, no one had met the others before, and were filmed over thirty minutes.
The girls all came together, formed a circle and came to a consensus in a very short time.
The boys on the other hand created a pecking order, using insults, boasting even shoving, and in the same period had established an alpha male, his sidekick, and the others in gradually declining lower positions.


Look, I understand what you are trying to say in terms of the Avalon community. And I suppose there could be some truth to it.
But I don't see this as the norm in society at large.
You ever see the movie "mean girls"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkQ0szdOwyQ

Growing up I had a hard core group of friends,there were about six of us and we would do anything for one another. Yes we would rip on eachother from time to time but it was more a show of endearment than anything else. It was as if we were saying to one another, we are close, I can say rude things to you and you me because we are like family. There was a difference between rudeness within the group and something said in public in front of strangers. There were rules.



I was always perplexed at how I did not see this in women.
As a matter of fact, it was always my perception that women viewed eachother as competition in the age old game of "who is the hottest".
There is even a reality star who has turned this mantra into fame and fortune.
Where men will watch sports, women watch a lot of these reality shows where other woman have leveraged their hotness into celebrity.

I understand applying your theory to this forum. But in general, I think you have it backwards. In society at large, men tend to get along better with one another than women do.

This is what I have perceived anyway. :nerd:

All perceptions are valid, and unique.
My take here is that while the world's elite is busy bombarding people with all kinds of scenarios via TV shows, people are going through an identity search, and trying out any role, since they are allowed a vast spectrum.
To me it's all a bit too complex now to analyze...too many different forces are at work.
Some women respond to the violence in society by being violent themselves, while others go into hiding. I have perceived a lot of young men, who have a shy nature, to be quite scared of today's girls. Whatever we observe there is somewhere an opposite example.
The outdoor societies I have lived in (Caribbean and Latino) are particular examples of men who tease each other in a joking manner, something the women don't participate in, maybe because they are still more stuck in the isolation of their homes, with kids and elderly relatives.

Anyway, where I wanted to go with this is to bring together the enlightened males.
Not into secret societies with rituals, but loose friendships...drop their mistrust of other men, and start connecting to pool their powers.
Men who are neither wimps nor jocks, nor alpha males, but are endowed with many different talents which they keep hidden until a situation arises where they need to use such a response. Some call him the Renaissance Man.
They are far from average, but are capable of maintaining a low-key life, with their humility betraying their real capacities.
I only compared boys and girls or men and women briefly to show that there are some basic differences in how the two genders do their bonding.
Anyway, I made my point, so now it is only a matter of waiting for the planted seeds to germinate.
You may all talk amongst yourselves.

noprophet
29th July 2013, 00:34
For context, I am 27 - male, and American.

Something I've done my entire life, and always wondered if women do this as well, is the acknowledgement nod.

Since I was a teenager I've continually noted that when men make eye contact in crowds, strangers, they often nod at one another. Almost like a territorial acknowledgement.

I'm sure many men here know what I'm talking about. My question to the ladies is, do women have any form of this?

Carmen
29th July 2013, 00:39
Excellent thread Ulli. I haven't read all of the posts, only the first page. My observation of men's behaviour is that it is always competitive to a greater or lessor degree. That can also manifest as jealousy and possessiveness. I also observe the same behaviour in myself! So, who am I to judge? Maybe if I chase away the tendency in myself there will be no mirrors of the same behaviour to observe?

Competitiveness can come up in so many ways. In my limited experiences tramping I've noticed when women lead the group they walk at a suitable pace to suit everyone and give encouragement to those behind. Put a certain type of man in front and it becomes a ruddy competition, a race to get there!!! Of course, not all men are like this and women can be just as competitive, but men seem to be more threatened by other men, especially if there is women to impress!

Competition verses Co-operation is a very interesting discussion but that's a bit off topic!

ulli
29th July 2013, 00:52
For context, I am 27 - male, and American.

Something I've done my entire life, and always wondered if women do this as well, is the acknowledgement nod.

Since I was a teenager I've continually noted that when men make eye contact in crowds, strangers, they often nod at one another. Almost like a territorial acknowledgement.

I'm sure many men here know what I'm talking about. My question to the ladies is, do women have any form of this?

I can only speak for myself. Most of the time I avoid eye contact with strangers,
except for the very old and the very young,
who I feel need to be acknowledged as human beings.

But then I'm not someone who looks at people in crowds anyway,
unless Im curious about the current styles of dress.
That stems from an old habit from my days as a fashion designer.

RunningDeer
29th July 2013, 01:12
My question to the ladies is, do women have any form of this?

I do. Smiles, smile+nod, a compliment. Sometimes, I'll toss out an unexpected joke. Like if a woman is about to go down the cleaning isle, I'll tell her that I stay out of there because I won't have an excuse not to clean. Or if I keep running into the same woman in the isles, I tell her I'm leaving now, so have a nice day. It'll end with each reaching out with a gentle touch and laughter.

It's an intimate connection for a brief spurt that lasts for hours.

Carmody
29th July 2013, 01:15
From left field, here is my idea. Learn to tango. At a certain point, the confident male lets the female completely let go with all her wildness and eroticism and is not frightened by it. Other men in the room may be shocked and frightened but also envious of the sensuality this couple has a achieved.

http://www.carrothers.com/astor_piazzolla_.htm

Carmody
29th July 2013, 01:19
From left field, here is my idea. Learn to tango. At a certain point, the confident male lets the female completely let go with all her wildness and eroticism and is not frightened by it. Other men in the room may be shocked and frightened but also envious of the sensuality this couple has a achieved.

Love this. Here is my favorite Tango tune:

-xAXksZOL1w

7FwXdEyrGts

Carmen
29th July 2013, 01:23
Where are the dancers Carmody!!?

Carmody
29th July 2013, 01:32
Actually, the proposals for knighthood come from the ranks of the people,
who can start the campaigns, and then the Prime Minister brings the matter to the attention of the Queen.
Right now there is a campaign to get Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin the Sir title...

Anyway, back to topic...to have spiritually evolved males consult and brainstorm together without
putting each other down....

After 48 years here, this time around, I still don't know what male and female means, as a difference. I do not understand human life as these things. I do not look through that filter, whatever it is.

When I see it in people, I find it..disturbing. Disturbing in a blindness kind of way. The way I see my dog, acting as a dog. A corner her consciousness cannot see around.

Like an enforced mask, that I chose to not carry. One that makes demands upon me.

I'm not what you would call androgynous, not by a long shot, but I simply will not tolerate my body dictating terms to me. Nor will I accept it from others. I can pick it up, or I can put it down.

In my younger years, I could not do that so easily, and thus felt broken by it's intrusion. Non functional, even.

~~~~~~~~~~~

To help clarify why I have this position, you'd have to see my astrological chart, which I do not share.

That chart says I have a virtually perfect emotional balance of masculine and feminine. (0.02 degrees of error)

ulli
29th July 2013, 01:57
Actually, the proposals for knighthood come from the ranks of the people,
who can start the campaigns, and then the Prime Minister brings the matter to the attention of the Queen.
Right now there is a campaign to get Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin the Sir title...

Anyway, back to topic...to have spiritually evolved males consult and brainstorm together without
putting each other down....

After 48 years here, this time around, I still don't know what male and female means, as a difference. I do not understand human life as these things. I do not look through that filter, whatever it is.

When I see it in people, I find it..disturbing. Disturbing in a blindness kind of way. The way I see my dog, acting as a dog. A corner her consciousness cannot see around.

Like an enforced mask, that I chose to not carry. One that makes demands upon me.

I'm not what you would call androgynous, not by a long shot, but I simply will not tolerate my body dictating terms to me. Nor will I accept it from others. I can pick it up, or I can put it down.

In my younger years, I could not do that so easily, and thus felt broken by it's intrusion. Non functional, even.

Thanks for the Tango, Carmody. Serious syncopation, dare I say....

Seeing people, rather than gender, eh?
The best explanation for that comes from astrology.
Remember that book Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus?
If you had a square angle between those two you would see it all differently.
But then you know that already.

Edit: Oops, I just saw your edit. Yes, astrology does explain gender attitudes like no other science does.

Beren
29th July 2013, 02:54
We are divided when here. But we are also united when here.
I always felt as male energy through out my whole existence. But the male that is.
Not the male that is not. Seem like a word play but it is what it is.

My aim is always to carry out the divine plan and my soul mate or twin flame or just the one whom I feel as one with -
is the female that is. Not the female that is not. Her being gives me support and shapes with me the world that we live in.

Alpha or other Greek letters are just letters. And jerks are just jerks be it male or female jerkess :) (hehe I just coined a word here )...
I am peace loving man. I am not married nor have children. I support understanding and love and contact with our souls where we will see that we are divine . I do not engage in fights. I defend women and I like flowers and animals. I like all colours but won't wear pink shirts. I will rather talk than fight and will help women in anything...
I like to talk with kids and they are glued to me usually. Same with animals.


That being said do not confuse me for a wimp or metrosexual.
I will rip your head off if there is a need for. I will stand my ground and kill you with my teeth if I have to and if it is the utmost need.
So don't get me wrong.

Don't also get me wrong but I would rather smell the Lilies and talk about trees and sing ... Than to teach some hot head am I male enough...



:)

Male and female. Same soul with same aim-God in progress. And since God is all - every woman is my sister or mother or friend or lover or just a kid and part of me and every man is my brother and friend and father and buddy and a kid and part of me.

:)

Rahkyt
29th July 2013, 07:08
It cannot be stressed enough how much the study of one's astrological chart can help with enlightenment, and explain the different behaviors in ourselves as well as others.

I think that it is heavily underrated, even among the Awake and Aware. Perhaps because of its mainstream popularity. Personal transformation as sold by many a self-help guru in recent decades concentrates upon the alleviation of specific personality traits and thought processes, which addresses the micro, but not the macro. And, astrology is not usually presented as something to be transcended. It's presented as if it is set in stone. I don't think many people actually realize that each sign builds upon the previous, that they express a story of human potential and evolution through the progression of the signs, beginning in Aries and culminating in Pisces. It's biological programming, imprinted in the cells electromagnetically, but like all programming, there is the potential for overwriting. Erasing the drive and, instead of replacing it with new programming, experiencing the wholeness of being a Clear.


Anyway, interesting about those locker room tears. And I'm glad that you lack the killer instinct.

Another story: 3rd grade, just moved to Crete, Greece, Pops was posted to Iraklion Air Station, a Cold War 'Listening Post', returned to the Greeks in the 1990s. On the playground of the base school, minding my 7-year old business when one of those nice, stinging big red balls we used to play 4-square and kick-ball with slammed into my head. When I picked myself up, through the pain, tears and haze, I see a couple of 5th graders pointing at me and laughing. I saw red and went after the big one, head and shoulders taller than me. Next thing I know, I'm sitting on his chest, pounding his head in the pavement over and over again.

I assume that teachers pulled me off that boy, my memory doesn't include that part of the experience. It was the mid-70s. A different world. Went to the principals office, don't even think my parents were called. As we sat there, that kid was looking at me with fear and trepidation and that was a revelation for me. I've never seen red again since and that was the first and last time I've ever let myself go in a fight. With 4 signs in Scorpio, Sun, Ascendant, Mercury and Pluto, releasing that energy in physical violence is flirting with chaos.

We've all got our different stories and paths. The locker-room tears are common to all who've played team sports at any level. Jocks, as we were called in the 80s, were the top of the High School food chain, I dated the cheerleaders, wore the Letterman's jacket, did the whole thing. There is a mask, a persona, carefully built and maintained, that goes along with all that. But, being church-raised, well-read and spoken, academically successful, an artist, break-dancer and sax-player as well, I was just too weird to be invited to the Keg parties and kicked it mostly with the other military brats, across all the HS social groupings, because we all lived together on the base and shared common life experiences. But, because of my athletic skills, I apparently wasn't too weird to enjoy the camaraderie of sportsmanship on the courts and fields and the brotherhood that entails, as far as that goes.


Thanks Rakhyt to have the guts to say it clearly.

Thank you, Flash, although when I was writing, I wasn't thinking about bravery or revealing something that everyone who has been here - and in other forums like this - for a while didn't already know. And it was not in condemnation or accusation, it just is what it is and is understandable, and, in large part, inevitable, given the nature of spaces such as this.


It is as if because everything has to pass through analysis for conspiracy (head trip) (in a conspiracy forum ;)), anything not analysable through these standards is untrue or unworthy.

I think you are right. The thing about that space of Being is that it defies analysis. Analysis and intellectualism are actually barriers in the way of clearing the space necessary for enlightenment experiences as well as living Zen. The critical mindset and over-analysis reveals the mindset of the critic as not being ready yet to walk that pathless path. And that's ok. But it's a waste of time for those who have already been there to remain and engage in petty argumentation. There are better ways to share experience.


For me, the deep mystical path of true Scientology or Buddhist mysticism or Christian mysticism for example are examples of difficult but worthwhile paths on the way to enlightenment.

I agree fully. The path is available in all religious traditions. One saying is that the Way is high and steep, with cliffs to each side, leading into the heights, where few dare to tread. But it remains accessible to those who truly seek it, no matter the culture. I've also heard it said that the truth must be presented, but all of the distortions and institutional trappings obscure it for all but the most dedicated.


Raykyt, that was an amazing post, hedged as it was in your own manly prose.

My prose is manly? I'm glad you resonated. And thanks, Ernie, you gave me a good smile there. :)


I have no killer instinct at all, often throwing the game to my friends because they want it so much more than I do anyway.

I realize that I wrote that whole first post and didn't really finish making my point. I will do so here. The reason why my HS Basketball Coach hated me so was because he had to depend on me to win games and he didn't like me as a person. Didn't like my care-free attitude. Probably thought I was too soft. He once tried to punish me for missing a practice during a snowstorm during Christmas break by benching me the next game. First half, all was good, we were winning. Second half, not so good and by the end of the game, he was fuming as I sat at the end of the bench, arms and legs crossed, smiling as we lost to a team we had beaten multiple times before. Scorpio, man. Back then, large part scorpion, rather than eagle or dove. That was a quiet trip home.


The violence in men is unfathomable to me as well. Threatening does not work well on me. It only makes me loose my control and see red.


Leave me alone, let me ignore you and go my way or we have a big problem, no matter your size. So no, I do not fit in in the usual male accepted mode of interaction.

Yes, it sounds like you forgo all of the posturing and strutting and go straight for the gusto. I'm sure that deflates the bravado of anyone seeking to assert primacy over you for social purposes. I tend to agree with your stance in that all of that is unnecessary.


I much more relate to women who I find are often far more rational and often even more intelligent (although that last is probably biased). My best intellectual conversations were always with females. In my experience, men are harder to convince and do not change their opinions in the face of new facts near as well as women do.

I think I read someone else's words above stating that there is some sort of survival benefit to be gained by being so inflexible. While this thread is focused on the way these traits tend to pit supposedly conscious men against each other based upon societally and natally determined traits, I think it is important to recognize that we are all what and where we are supposed to be. And yet, that space of being can be shifted by any of us in any moment. We are truly that powerful if we make the choice to be.

Star Mariner
29th July 2013, 12:48
To help clarify why I have this position, you'd have to see my astrological chart, which I do not share.

That chart says I have a virtually perfect emotional balance of masculine and feminine. (0.02 degrees of error)

Interesting. I've never studied astrology in any depth, but perhaps now would like to find out more about my own chart. Do you have any links where this sort of information (such as you posted above) could be discovered?

thanks

ulli
29th July 2013, 13:08
To help clarify why I have this position, you'd have to see my astrological chart, which I do not share.

That chart says I have a virtually perfect emotional balance of masculine and feminine. (0.02 degrees of error)

Interesting. I've never studied astrology in any depth, but perhaps now would like to find out more about my own chart. Do you have any links where this sort of information (such as you posted above) could be discovered?

thanks

When I began to study astrology there were popular books like Linda Goodman's Sun Signs. Few books taught how to create and interpret a birth chart back then. I found two, one was called the "Compleat Astrologer" by Derek and Julia Parker, and the other I cannot remember now. My point is that it helped me to have two different approaches, so if one presented a hurdle that was too high for me, the other book was clearer on that chapter, and vice versa.

Now with so many websites which offer the basic knowledge for free it is hard to know where to begin.
I suggest that you google an astrological term, like "Saturn square Venus" which will lead you to a small description of what that angle means in someone's life.

Read as many of these descriptions on as many websites as come up, and then choose the one with the style that is most agreeable to you. Then if you get stuck, add a second website, to give more clarity.

I used to recommend www.astro.com but have since found out that many people don't know where to begin when they see the home page, as over the years the site has grown huge and now is so complex it has become overwhelming to a beginner.
It depends on each person's level to absorb new knowledge...some like a simple down to earth approach, while others have no problem with a lot of details.

ulli
29th July 2013, 13:21
@Rahkyt

I really liked everything about your post there, Rahkyt, and don't mean to be picky, but when it comes to astrology
I have to insist on being really clear.

So here is the sentence I want to make two corrections to:

"With 4 signs in Scorpio, Sun, Ascendant, Mercury and Pluto, releasing that energy in physical violence is flirting with chaos."

A) you meant to say with 4 planets in Scorpio, not signs. No big deal, but the distinctions between signs (areas) and planets (bodies) is one that needs to be upheld.
and B) you say you had Pluto in Scorpio. That means you were born during the eighties, or early nineties.
I don't know how old you are, but you mentioned being around during the seventies as a kid, so my guess is that you had Pluto in Virgo, or perhaps early Libra.
Please, don't let your Scorpio planets drag you into paranoia now, that I am like that coach and not like you.
I do like you, but I LOVE astrology, and will defend it at all cost.

Carmody
29th July 2013, 14:39
To help clarify why I have this position, you'd have to see my astrological chart, which I do not share.

That chart says I have a virtually perfect emotional balance of masculine and feminine. (0.02 degrees of error)

Interesting. I've never studied astrology in any depth, but perhaps now would like to find out more about my own chart. Do you have any links where this sort of information (such as you posted above) could be discovered?

thanks

If you want to understand what reality is, then understand this post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


astrology is frowned upon and ridiculed by the PTB types for a very powerful reason. well, a few reasons.

One, they use it themselves.

The reasons they use it is that:

-solids, elements as we know the periodic table, are the odd man out. 99% of the universe is in plasma or ionic charge form.

-voltage of this ionic charge is the transverse function in electrical terms and can be leading, or FTL, to any speed required.

-single atoms act in a quantum fashion, not in a elemental or grouped mass aggregate form of interactive. space is filled with this 'dust', this 99% of the universe, It rules things, and is dimensionally interactive, out of time and what not.., the earth and planets is the most minor character in this mix and experiences linear time.

-space is a cloud of charged single particles or nano particles, all interacting in the form of a highly charged plasma.

-space, these single or nano particles are aligned according to this charge space, which dictates their interactive with one another, or their dimensional cuing and dimensional interactives, or their temporal interactives.

- the solar system is built upon this form of a charged cloud of quantum or dimensional interactives.... temporal and dimensional interactive bubbles in a 3d and temporal matrix.

-the planets serve as focal points, vibrational and energy focal points for this flowing energy to vibrate and pattern itself, which is also the origins of the ley lines and energy patterns we see on the earth/globe.

-geometric alignments are the key point here, we see it in chemistry and we see it in all aspects of dimensional and matter interactives.

-since space is all at overpowering levels of highly charged particle quantum fields, all vibrating..and are the major partner here, by 99% or more... and in charged field dominance, they rule the roost.

-they vibrate, they align, they dimensionally produce a backdrop, you dance through linear time on and in...a world of rose colored glasses. You are in and on the ocean of 3d linear reality..and it moves. To a pattern.

-We individually interact with this dimensionally connected system, according to the mundane 3d situation and our multidimensional connections.

-We dance to the planetary vibration pattern. it is in effect... from out of time, it is timeless, but from this location, this space, this particular vortex resultant calmspace (like a calm spot in a flowing river, one where fish might sit and talk, breed, lay eggs, etc)...we experience 3d linear unidirectional time, so it moves in the one direction.

-which is why astrology works and we can tell time, or tell probability and pressures upon us and in us, via astrology.

-those who wish to control you don't want you to know any of this.

Not the best explanation, but it hits the high points. I can do better, and have...but I'm just quickly spitting it out here.

donk
29th July 2013, 14:45
All I know is that I know a lot more male “b!tches” (with all of the mysogynist anti-feminine attachments that word implies) than I do female, I feel like the gender thing is truly convoluted these days…and most relationship problems’ roots lie more in the toxic societal norm of the importance of BEING RIGHT way more than the sex-role attachments that come with it, which I have found to be more of a distracting side effect, no different from racism or homophobia—an irrational fear planted in civilization to keep us divided.

Also, I think that anyone that truly “gets it” in any sense of whatever that term means should be able to clearly express themselves and most importantly SHARE “it” without insecurities, transcending gender or any other perceived difference/inferiority of the audience….the name Bill Ryan comes to mind.

That’s why this place, in particular these types of threads, are exceptional—cuz occasionally we can get over ourselves enough (or a truly enlightened person can pipe up without the expectation that the audience can’t handle it) to rise above that enormous road block in the evolution of our species, preventing us to truly relate to one another, rather than simply accepting “being civil” as the best case scenario.

Strat
29th July 2013, 14:49
I wrote all this up in word and I haven't proof read it, ye be warned:


-----

Well Ulli, you may be right. I say may be, because frankly, what do I know? I'm freakishly close to the man you just described except that I'm much friendlier online. You will never find me shut down an idea online in an defamatory manner. I'll debate using my logic, but I won't throw names or any passive aggressive bs around.

So I'm just going to explain why I've got a lot of work to do (in the spiritual sense):

I'm kind of an asshole. I make a lot of jokes and I can make anyone laugh, but my humor comes from pain. Ya know the old, "better to laugh than cry" kinda thing. I don't think anyone would say they were raised in the perfect setting so I can't really complain considering I had both parents, food in my belly and clothes on my back.

My only real issues growing up were that I was shy and I had an older bro who pushed me around (physically held down and beaten with toys, thrown into tables, etc, though psychological manipulation caused the lasting damage). I can't think these events caused any traumatic long term damage, though they provided gas in the tank (there's other events I don't have memory of, like being punched in the head, off of a couch, as a ****ing baby). What screwed me in the long term (I think, still sorting stuff out) was the way I internalized my problems.

I was a Christian boy. If I had a problem I was to pray it away. The thing is I was never taught how to handle my emotions. So they just brewed up inside of me. I didn't have anyone to talk to (too shy/afraid of people). I can so relate to what Justintime said cause my bro had a bunch of friends, he's always been charming, etc.

So up to here, you can see how my programming has begun. Didn't know what FOXNews is and I'm already being programmed a few months outta the womb. Only the strong survive.

Later on I joined martial arts, then soccer in 8th grade, then (American) football in 9th and then wrestling in 10th.

You see? It's constant competition.

And the thing is, nobody is on the same level when they grow up. This makes it doubly hard for delusional assholes like myself. I meditate 3 times a week (trying to bump it up to every day). I originally did this because I was depressed/feeling hopeless (hopelessness was immediately cured, still wringing out all the sadness though). Meditation is such an effective tool for this and it works for my anger too.

The thing is for a permanent fix, meditation needs to be used daily for a long time. I'm a 27 year old guy who does knuckle push-ups to offensive rap music; far cry from Gandhi. The meditation keeps me calm, cool and collected but my anger is on a whole different level. I rarely snap but it's unfailingly always the same scenario; somebody is being overly rude.

I try being the nice guy. I'll take the blame (when it's not my fault) and I like to keep the peace. I always flip out when someone continues to be rude after I apologize. But it's not like I turn the tables verbally, I just literally lose all control. This is like a serious issue that I need to handle. I've flipped out like this twice in the past few years and thankfully the other parties involved walked away. This is a problem I have with alpha males (napoleon complex's, etc). That term needs to be defined more clearly and I don't think it's up to the person in question to decide who is alpha. Let's face it bros, there can be only one (alpha) and you folks aren't going to tell me what to do. Pistols at dawn?

And this is where we start coming full circle. Most (I'm assuming most) men want this to be this:
XfN_DEBrUVI

So all that being said, take my angry delusional brain and then expose it to brainwashing from all directions. This is where you get folks like me, but who are frankly less aware of what's going on in life. And these are the internet tough guys you keep running into.

Now that I'm older, I've read this and that, I physically don't have time to address everybody personal testimony. Then eventually, someone is going to come along with something downright annoying. When I read these things it drives me up the wall. I'm gonna say it now and I truly don't mean to offend anyone's personal beliefs: super soldiers. This phenomenon is beginning to bother me, it's borderline disrespectful at times (this is not a judgment call on any journalists but the 'soldiers' in question). I truly believe I could fool a large percentage of the alternative community by faking being a super soldier.

When those thoughts swim around, it's hard not to post something passive aggressive.

I think my strength here is I don't bs myself. If I'm a bad person I need to know so I can fix me. I'm working on my bad traits, it's just going to take some time.

Rahkyt
29th July 2013, 15:51
I do like you, but I LOVE astrology, and will defend it at all cost.

You don't have to defend astrology from me, Ulli. But I understand. That should have been Ascendent, Sun, Mercury and Neptune. Pluto isn't even a planet anymore. Duh. Thanks for your clarifications.

Paul
29th July 2013, 16:13
geometric alignments are the key point here, we see it in chemistry and we see it in all aspects of dimensional and matter interactives
The chemistry part makes good sense to me. The geometric structures of the ionic clouds known as electrons and chemical bonds are indeed key to understanding atomic properties, chemical bonds and molecular shapes and properties, right up through the complex protein folding shapes determined by the sequences encoded in our DNA.

At a smaller scale, studying such dynamic aether theories as Paul LaViolette's subquantum kinetics and seeing how this aether forms nuclear "particles" such as protons, electrons and neutrons, once again, one sees how certain geometric shapes of dynamic vortices in a polarized aetheric medium form the subatomic particles of what we call mass.

At a grander scale, from modest laboratory experiments to the farthest reaches of the visible cosmos, studying plasmas and the electric universe, we see how certain geometric shapes of plasma vortices in a polarized medium form the "universe" as we know it.

I'm beginning to notice a pattern :).

ulli
29th July 2013, 16:20
I do like you, but I LOVE astrology, and will defend it at all cost.

You don't have to defend astrology from me, Ulli. But I understand. That should have been Ascendent, Sun, Mercury and Neptune. Pluto isn't even a planet anymore. Duh. Thanks for your clarifications.

Of course, Neptune was in Scorpio then.
Makes for a very sensitive and psychic generation.

To me, being an astrologer, Pluto will always be a planet.
The influence is so powerful, despite Pluto's small size,
that whenever I want to prove to someone of the parallel events of someone's life and a planetary transit I choose Pluto transits to make my point, as these are unmistakable in their powerful transformative effect.

Astronomically, neither the sun nor moon are planets, but their station as astrological 'planetary' bodies got stuck with the traditions.

ulli
29th July 2013, 17:00
I wrote all this up in word and I haven't proof read it, ye be warned:


-----

Well Ulli, you may be right. I say may be, because frankly, what do I know? I'm freakishly close to the man you just described except that I'm much friendlier online. You will never find me shut down an idea online in an defamatory manner. I'll debate using my logic, but I won't throw names or any passive aggressive bs around.

So I'm just going to explain why I've got a lot of work to do (in the spiritual sense):

I'm kind of an asshole. I make a lot of jokes and I can make anyone laugh, but my humor comes from pain. Ya know the old, "better to laugh than cry" kinda thing. I don't think anyone would say they were raised in the perfect setting so I can't really complain considering I had both parents, food in my belly and clothes on my back.

My only real issues growing up were that I was shy and I had an older bro who pushed me around (physically held down and beaten with toys, thrown into tables, etc, though psychological manipulation caused the lasting damage). I can't think these events caused any traumatic long term damage, though they provided gas in the tank (there's other events I don't have memory of, like being punched in the head, off of a couch, as a ****ing baby). What screwed me in the long term (I think, still sorting stuff out) was the way I internalized my problems.

I was a Christian boy. If I had a problem I was to pray it away. The thing is I was never taught how to handle my emotions. So they just brewed up inside of me. I didn't have anyone to talk to (too shy/afraid of people). I can so relate to what Justintime said cause my bro had a bunch of friends, he's always been charming, etc.

So up to here, you can see how my programming has begun. Didn't know what FOXNews is and I'm already being programmed a few months outta the womb. Only the strong survive.

Later on I joined martial arts, then soccer in 8th grade, then (American) football in 9th and then wrestling in 10th.

You see? It's constant competition.

And the thing is, nobody is on the same level when they grow up. This makes it doubly hard for delusional assholes like myself. I meditate 3 times a week (trying to bump it up to every day). I originally did this because I was depressed/feeling hopeless (hopelessness was immediately cured, still wringing out all the sadness though). Meditation is such an effective tool for this and it works for my anger too.

The thing is for a permanent fix, meditation needs to be used daily for a long time. I'm a 27 year old guy who does knuckle push-ups to offensive rap music; far cry from Gandhi. The meditation keeps me calm, cool and collected but my anger is on a whole different level. I rarely snap but it's unfailingly always the same scenario; somebody is being overly rude.

I try being the nice guy. I'll take the blame (when it's not my fault) and I like to keep the peace. I always flip out when someone continues to be rude after I apologize. But it's not like I turn the tables verbally, I just literally lose all control. This is like a serious issue that I need to handle. I've flipped out like this twice in the past few years and thankfully the other parties involved walked away. This is a problem I have with alpha males (napoleon complex's, etc). That term needs to be defined more clearly and I don't think it's up to the person in question to decide who is alpha. Let's face it bros, there can be only one (alpha) and you folks aren't going to tell me what to do. Pistols at dawn?

And this is where we start coming full circle. Most (I'm assuming most) men want this to be this:
XfN_DEBrUVI

So all that being said, take my angry delusional brain and then expose it to brainwashing from all directions. This is where you get folks like me, but who are frankly less aware of what's going on in life. And these are the internet tough guys you keep running into.

Now that I'm older, I've read this and that, I physically don't have time to address everybody personal testimony. Then eventually, someone is going to come along with something downright annoying. When I read these things it drives me up the wall. I'm gonna say it now and I truly don't mean to offend anyone's personal beliefs: super soldiers. This phenomenon is beginning to bother me, it's borderline disrespectful at times (this is not a judgment call on any journalists but the 'soldiers' in question). I truly believe I could fool a large percentage of the alternative community by faking being a super soldier.

When those thoughts swim around, it's hard not to post something passive aggressive.

I think my strength here is I don't bs myself. If I'm a bad person I need to know so I can fix me. I'm working on my bad traits, it's just going to take some time.


Strat, this post ( but also many others in this thread) just blew me away. I'm so glad people are sharing the bottom line of their humanness.
Everyone here has somehow triggered memories of my own, so we have a lot in common, and it seems to be mostly in the areas of our suffering.

Especially when it comes to humor in tragic or disastrous situations...
those who get uptight that someone might crack a joke at those times
haven't suffered enough yet to really understand what is going on.

The thing to learn about anger is that in the long run it really hurts the one who feels
and then blasts it out ...more than the person at whom it is directed.

All anger is nothing but energy in need of redirection...is a quote I once read.

Astrologically Mars is the planet associated with heat, fire, anger, impatience. So one can measure when those thoughts and behavior patterns are at their strongest. One can then decide whether to vent, or not. Not to vent can mean two things...
Repression, which can lead to illnesses, or transmutation, using the restraint to refine one's character. These are personal choices and Im not making any judgement...as all of us do one or the other whenever we are in tight spots.
Only the self can decide how to manage one's life, in the larger context, and in view of consequences of one's actions.

Paul
29th July 2013, 17:33
To me, being an astrologer, Pluto will always be a planet.
The influence is so powerful, despite Pluto's small size,
that whenever I want to prove to someone of the parallel events of someone's life and a planetary transit I choose Pluto transits to make my point, as these are unmistakable in their powerful transformative effect.
Perhaps it's not that small, far away, rock called Pluto that you're noticing.

Perhaps rather Pluto is caught up in some particularly interesting aspect of the electrical-plasma geometry of the solar system, making it not the cause of the patterns you notice, but rather a useful marker of those patterns.

Carmody
29th July 2013, 17:50
To me, being an astrologer, Pluto will always be a planet.
The influence is so powerful, despite Pluto's small size,
that whenever I want to prove to someone of the parallel events of someone's life and a planetary transit I choose Pluto transits to make my point, as these are unmistakable in their powerful transformative effect.
Perhaps it's not that small, far away, rock called Pluto that you're noticing.

Perhaps rather Pluto is caught up in some particularly interesting aspect of the electrical-plasma geometry of the solar system, making it not the cause of the patterns you notice, but rather a useful marker of those patterns.

yes, one and the same.

what is a particle, but a zero point marker for a multidimensional flux point?

ulli
29th July 2013, 18:11
To me, being an astrologer, Pluto will always be a planet.
The influence is so powerful, despite Pluto's small size,
that whenever I want to prove to someone of the parallel events of someone's life and a planetary transit I choose Pluto transits to make my point, as these are unmistakable in their powerful transformative effect.
Perhaps it's not that small, far away, rock called Pluto that you're noticing.

Perhaps rather Pluto is caught up in some particularly interesting aspect of the electrical-plasma geometry of the solar system, making it not the cause of the patterns you notice, but rather a useful marker of those patterns.

That is exactly what it is. A marker for patterns that run parallel in a multitude of levels and dimensions simultaneously.
This is what I have been trying to explain. People who understand Hermetic principles get it, all others stay with disbelief, as nothing that far away could possibly "cause" a death, for instance. Yet Pluto is often around when deaths occur, but also new birth. Vortex planet.

Flash
29th July 2013, 20:37
Now a bit of female vanity and competitiveness, at an early age, just done differently from males


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgXlTB32MPM

ulli
29th July 2013, 23:23
Now a bit of female vanity and competitiveness, at an early age, just done differently from males


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgXlTB32MPM


It's just that today's kids are fast learners.

thunder24
30th July 2013, 01:54
as a kid, I was sheltered, mother and father from Miami, hippies, moved to the appalachian mountains, waited 7 years and had me. Sheltered from the world, had what I needed, raised as they thought I should b in a "christain home" ( talk about some molding of the psyche)
By the third grade, going to the psycologist for depressioin. Being picked on in school, because I wouldn't fight,( didn't understand why i needed too). Dad lost his job, and now we didn't have the "money" we used to, so I wasn't treated to the things I was used too.

I did not understand this. 4th grade now into competitive baseball and basketball, while not being the best, it was an outlet for aggresion, and found myself being "needed" on the teams... Still picked on, for being "dumb" or "silly", "not getting it"... Usually due to my being sheltered, I dind't know about things... things such as Sex, drugs, cussing, ways to act, situations in life I was never exposed to that my friends were. I had a friend whose mom was so high on the needle, that when she asked him for a ciggarette, he gave her a crayon and she "smoked" it... These types of things made me realize I didn't know what the world was about or contained... and made me feel dumb...

So then came the embarrasement of mom and dad in public, my friends making fun of them and the way they talk, word usuage. I didn'tknow how to deal... These were my parents that I loved, but wanted to get away from, and these were my friends, whom I wanted to b around, but were making fun of my parents...

Comes High school... basketball and baseball still doing well... went to college "to play basketball" I kept the bench very very very warm...

they would say " oh thunder24 is book smart, but has no common sense, no street smarts"... so to this, I realized even more the depth of my concealment from reality, and made me bitter. Parents would say they loved me, I would tell them, only because I am your child, not because of "who" I am.

Today.... feels he has to always defend his understanding...because those around him quit learning... defend himself from the alpha males with more experience, defend himself from the alpha males who are smarter and he assumes they will find his weaknesses and shread him... This I feel often... and 99% of the time, after interactions are over, or situations have concluded.... the insecurities, were nothign but mental garbage.

This has probably been said, but personally it appears that my ego comes from trying to protect a hurt boy(is this my ego protecting itself, trhying to give itself a purpose of uses?)... mayb not all the time but, my opinion is it contributed to my own "ego".

I had all I needed, a great life and yet the emotional insecurities still raise their head, to the point of explosion as was mentioned earlier by strat and ulli.

peace
p.s. around all these hill billies, a little light causes one to easily b vane, for theres no real comparison here, or is there.... oh these simple mountain people.

ulli
30th July 2013, 02:28
Very moving and also revealing post, Thunder.
You are probably just one step away from full self realization.
Acquiring self knowledge is the healthiest method to fight feelings of insecurity and depression.
Once your search leads to the discovery why you are here then nothing can slow you down...
even though there are few people who understand you.
Your guides will always bring you back to this moment when all of it makes good sense.
Thanks for being here on Avalon.

778 neighbour of some guy
30th July 2013, 20:32
Now a bit of female vanity and competitiveness, at an early age, just done differently from males


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgXlTB32MPM

Perhaps not that different?

Long fight, good one too!!

vR4UPc7lnv8

Carmody
30th July 2013, 20:42
Of course, you are bringing a fight .....to a thread which is about not eliciting those responses in people? :)

That it starts at home?

And we need to tame it in our selves, individually, so we don't project it 'out there?' :)

If it exists, it is out there on the net, somewhere. Ie, extreme examples.

778 neighbour of some guy
30th July 2013, 20:48
Of course, you are bringing a fight .....to a thread which is about not eliciting those responses in people? :)

That it starts at home?

And we need to tame it in our selves, individually, so we don't project it 'out there?' :)

Their fights are very personal, like any other fight, and they found the right place for it and are prepared, I fight and violence has got nothing to do with it, its playtime, I am not a violent man, NOT. If people would just please stop Yinging my Yang that would make a conversation much easier.

Carmody
30th July 2013, 20:58
Of course, you are bringing a fight .....to a thread which is about not eliciting those responses in people? :)

That it starts at home?

And we need to tame it in our selves, individually, so we don't project it 'out there?' :)

Their fights are very personal, like any other fight, and they found the right place for it and are prepared, I fight and violence has got nothing to do with it, its playtime, I am not a violent man, NOT. If people would just please stop Yinging my Yang that would make a conversation much easier.

Where did fighting get conflated with Yang?

As in, with respect to the vast majority of the people out there who may practice forms of fighting, this is not the reality. It's projected violence in most cases.

If you allow for one, then how does one get others to cognate a difference, and not fall down a hole?

Also, show me a boxer who has no brain damage, no brain scarring. Recent studies show most eloquently...that person does not exist.

How is this good? :)

What are we going to do here, allow for infection? Allow it's intrusion, in a controlled manner? In that case, then ... what is the difference?

Where is the difference in that, compared to elitists who cause people, cause great masses - to fight wars? Where do you draw the line?

How can one be allowed and not the other?

In similar statement and meaning... Yoda said, 'There is no try'.

I'm not excusing myself here, but I recognize the difference between do and not do and slippery slopes. I recognize the dilemma.

And... boxing as being "allowable" is a very very slippery slope.

778 neighbour of some guy
30th July 2013, 21:15
Of course, you are bringing a fight .....to a thread which is about not eliciting those responses in people? :)

That it starts at home?

And we need to tame it in our selves, individually, so we don't project it 'out there?' :)

Their fights are very personal, like any other fight, and they found the right place for it and are prepared, I fight and violence has got nothing to do with it, its playtime, I am not a violent man, NOT. If people would just please stop Yinging my Yang that would make a conversation much easier.

Where did fighting get conflated with Yang?

As in, with respect to the vast majority of the people out there who may practice forms of fighting, this is not the reality. It's projected violence in most cases.

If you allow for one, then how does one get others to cognate a difference, and not fall down a hole?

Also, show me a boxer who has no brain damage, no brain scarring. Recent studies show most eloquently...that person does not exist.

How is this good? :)

OOmpf spiritual en political correctness eh, drives me nuts, I am a reiki master, rebirther and for some reason people like to shove all of that in a box, you can be only this or that, I am also a fighter because its just another fun physical component to life and as personal and close as you will ever get the chance to get with everybody, trained, controlled, referee, medical attention.

Only saints and angels here eh, yech.

ulli
30th July 2013, 21:22
I have a feeling that this thread had run it's course already a couple of days ago.
My point was made and blessings to all those who got it.
Some great sharing of personal views took place as well.

And I really appreciate your defending it, Carmody, but it's ok.

There will always be those who believe that a discussion is not complete
unless they have a chance to point out the exception to the rule.

And 778, don't complain about people yinning your yang
while your own point is as obscure as you just made in your post above.

I'm sure Carmody felt you were yinning my Yang,
and I must admit that's also how I perceived it.
Anyhow, I like your expression "yinning my Yang", and will absorb it into my vocabulary.

But to be fair here, it would have helped if you had at least announced that you were in play mode.

P.S. I just read your reply to Carmody and I have to say, it seems to me that you are definitely posting in the wrong thread, if not the wrong forum.

Carmody
30th July 2013, 21:48
Of course, you are bringing a fight .....to a thread which is about not eliciting those responses in people? :)

That it starts at home?

And we need to tame it in our selves, individually, so we don't project it 'out there?' :)

Their fights are very personal, like any other fight, and they found the right place for it and are prepared, I fight and violence has got nothing to do with it, its playtime, I am not a violent man, NOT. If people would just please stop Yinging my Yang that would make a conversation much easier.

Where did fighting get conflated with Yang?

As in, with respect to the vast majority of the people out there who may practice forms of fighting, this is not the reality. It's projected violence in most cases.

If you allow for one, then how does one get others to cognate a difference, and not fall down a hole?

Also, show me a boxer who has no brain damage, no brain scarring. Recent studies show most eloquently...that person does not exist.

How is this good? :)

OOmpf spiritual en political correctness eh, drives me nuts, I am a reiki master, rebirther and for some reason people like to shove all of that in a box, you can be only this or that, I am also a fighter because its just another fun physical component to life and as personal and close as you will ever get the chance to get with everybody, trained, controlled, referee, medical attention.

Only saints and angels here eh, yech.

I never said I had an answer and I never exempted myself. :)

The only thing I personally know, is that I manged to rise to the top of the depths of the ocean of being in a body, by dropping all of it, letting all of it go. I hung onto.... nothing.

It was a 'fire sale', all of it had to go and all of it went.

I felt and do feel that the clinging to any of it and the 'fighting back' as only the male does, is part of it.

That the issue is not the fighting back or balancing out, as it may be, but the misalignment, the projection of it via the male body. The attempt at balance can become the overwhelming force of projection of position. And so on.

Women, or being in the female body has just as much that stands in the way and colors the issues. It just tends to head off in a different direction... different flavors, different means, different results, different aims, different outlook, etc.

Nanoo Nanoo
30th July 2013, 21:51
Ulli Dulli
But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders,
establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

I remember one of the most disruptive egoists from avalon ... the all time avalon egotistic control freak was ... ? _ _____ _

Where is see a division in over views is truly from the perspective of the viewer. This can colour arguments in favor to and fro. However can we try to put our selves in the shoes of others ? to remove the ego and the vanity and deconstruct the self in order to get a glimpse of the others mind/ emotions ? this is the challenge and in adapting a modern ego system.

The modern ego is not a driving force of selfishness .. on the contrary .. it uses the vital strength egoic charge can have ( its our most powerful energetic centre depending on the individuals propencities ) and be DIRECTED to an intention for a win win instead of a victory. This is the tipping point of understanding a good ego.

Vanity to me means furnuishing myself with trinkets that make me look good. I think in regard to forums, we all love the pat on the back .. the reward for effort .. is it such a bad thing ? nooo but like anything can be misused .. like i always say

" ... the deed is in the intentional use of the hand .. a pen can be used to write a beautiful poem , or stab one in the neck .. same instrument , diferent intentis ... "

MDE

getting back to my original thought before i was distracted with caffiene ! ... hmm ... ah yes ! Ulli , you describe the typical mental traits of men , in particular their establishing lower and higher ranks. I refer to a speech given by "Girl Writes what " ( i dont know her actual name ) she deconstructs men really well and resonated with her description of us ( or me at least ) that Men are defined to themselves by their social identities. This to me seems a poignant part of the mans self worth.

So its no wonder we tend to battle a little when this is being undermined or challenged... then the women rush in to protect and nurture the wounded soldier..

this to me seems a totally natural and normal thing ... When a man came home from battle he was tended to by his woman.. given food , she healed his wounds, gave nourishment and helped him rest, spoke in his ear of thanks and gave him something to strive for.. the look in her eye ( ; 0 ) , he was safe , for even a few hours before he went out again to risk life and limb to provide for his family. Its a partnership of gender roles of natural propensity ...

if we were to super impose this in todays role models .. she would have gone out to battle , got hacked to death by ferrocious men , he would have no idea how to boil the water to make food for the kids which by the way was in the back pack of the woman ... IT DOSENT WORK !

Womens rights Just like mens rights are social reactions to natural propensities and when political stratergies interplay with this enacted by morons called polititians then you get todays societal short comings.

I say get back to basics.

Men do the man things and Women do the woman things and if you want to cross genders then have a look at the gay community. They aint having the best of luck with social understanding or even coming to terms of same sex raltionships even in modern times. With even having any sort of equality for happening to being in love with the same sex which is on a grand scale ABSOLUTELY NATURAL ! God does not care whom you love , as long as you do. But look at the gay community as a role model... They have a higher p-ropensity for promiscurity fuelled mostly by enviromental past times such as drugs extasy etc .. Why is the gay community the biggest advocate for call a drugg abuse ? are they trying to bridge a gap of natural feelings burgeoned by a drug colouring ? just that lttle tint of rose in the glasses for effect.. i dont know , but looking at this .. if they were so happy being Gay why are they numbing them selves with such huge drug regiments ?

i think even with this extreme example we see nature cutting through ... the point is , we dont recognise our own nature .. and we do not edify our natural feelings and that can be misleading ourselves with socially constructed models of equality ...

How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

But we cant do it if we are gender confused in our natural roles.

I think if we wanted to truly look at the negative effects we would have to use the Gay community not as Gay being stray .. on the contrary but in the way that Gay people try to mimmick the traits of how they see the opposite sex.. ie how a lesbian or bull dyke would emmulate their opinion of a man. On the other hand how a gay man would try to be more feminine by interpreting their view of a woman and then emmulating it.. They tend to eggsagerate the worst traits of gender swapping. And i truly think you should observe this in an enviroment where these people have had a few drinks to eggsagerate the effects ...

Now this is a generalisation and meant to be a talking piece so please lets not get the worng idea and get pour backs up on gay rights or something distractive like that ok ?
nice

Naniu

RunningDeer
30th July 2013, 21:52
Only saints and angels here eh, yech.

Yipes, not me! Still dimensionally thick. Long list that says I’m not: toilet seat’s up, skips showers, wears the same shirt over and over, sandy and dusty car, cookies for dinner, so many half read books on my iPad that I have to prop table leg #4 with real books.
That’s what I’m willing to cop to....hee, hee. Love not being a saint. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/hopa-smiley.gif

Alright one more....yes, twice in two weeks...I did a drive up for a GMO ‘Burger King’ fries and chicken sandwich. Still angry I ate it so fast that I forgot to taste it. (It’s been a weird couple of weeks.) :wave:

RunningDeer
30th July 2013, 22:21
How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

Naniu

I grew up with that model, too, Naniu. The one I’ve spoken about since the early 1970’s is one where both 'Mom' and 'Dad' have the equivalent of one job. We live within our means. Alway end the month in black and put a little money aside.

The family is strong because there’s balance between family time and time for personal growth.

There’s a community spot with a fire pit for those that want to join in with such things as eats and greets, music and stories and sports just for the sake of play and exercise.

ulli
30th July 2013, 22:32
Ulli Dulli
But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders,
establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

I remember one of the most disruptive egoists from avalon ... the all time avalon egotistic control freak was ... ? _ _____ _

Where is see a division in over views is truly from the perspective of the viewer. This can colour arguments in favor to and fro. However can we try to put our selves in the shoes of others ? to remove the ego and the vanity and deconstruct the self in order to get a glimpse of the others mind/ emotions ? this is the challenge and in adapting a modern ego system.

The modern ego is not a driving force of selfishness .. on the contrary .. it uses the vital strength egoic charge can have ( its our most powerful energetic centre depending on the individuals propencities ) and be DIRECTED to an intention for a win win instead of a victory. This is the tipping point of understanding a good ego.

Vanity to me means furnuishing myself with trinkets that make me look good. I think in regard to forums, we all love the pat on the back .. the reward for effort .. is it such a bad thing ? nooo but like anything can be misused .. like i always say

" ... the deed is in the intentional use of the hand .. a pen can be used to write a beautiful poem , or stab one in the neck .. same instrument , diferent intentis ... "

MDE

getting back to my original thought before i was distracted with caffiene ! ... hmm ... ah yes ! Ulli , you describe the typical mental traits of men , in particular their establishing lower and higher ranks. I refer to a speech given by "Girl Writes what " ( i dont know her actual name ) she deconstructs men really well and resonated with her description of us ( or me at least ) that Men are defined to themselves by their social identities. This to me seems a poignant part of the mans self worth.

So its no wonder we tend to battle a little when this is being undermined or challenged... then the women rush in to protect and nurture the wounded soldier..

this to me seems a totally natural and normal thing ... When a man came home from battle he was tended to by his woman.. given food , she healed his wounds, gave nourishment and helped him rest, spoke in his ear of thanks and gave him something to strive for.. the look in her eye ( ; 0 ) , he was safe , for even a few hours before he went out again to risk life and limb to provide for his family. Its a partnership of gender roles of natural propensity ...

if we were to super impose this in todays role models .. she would have gone out to battle , got hacked to death by ferrocious men , he would have no idea how to boil the water to make food for the kids which by the way was in the back pack of the woman ... IT DOSENT WORK !

Womens rights Just like mens rights are social reactions to natural propensities and when political stratergies interplay with this enacted by morons called polititians then you get todays societal short comings.

I say get back to basics.

Men do the man things and Women do the woman things and if you want to cross genders then have a look at the gay community. They aint having the best of luck with social understanding or even coming to terms of same sex raltionships even in modern times. With even having any sort of equality for happening to being in love with the same sex which is on a grand scale ABSOLUTELY NATURAL ! God does not care whom you love , as long as you do. But look at the gay community as a role model... They have a higher p-ropensity for promiscurity fuelled mostly by enviromental past times such as drugs extasy etc .. Why is the gay community the biggest advocate for call a drugg abuse ? are they trying to bridge a gap of natural feelings burgeoned by a drug colouring ? just that lttle tint of rose in the glasses for effect.. i dont know , but looking at this .. if they were so happy being Gay why are they numbing them selves with such huge drug regiments ?

i think even with this extreme example we see nature cutting through ... the point is , we dont recognise our own nature .. and we do not edify our natural feelings and that can be misleading ourselves with socially constructed models of equality ...

How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

But we cant do it if we are gender confused in our natural roles.

I think if we wanted to truly look at the negative effects we would have to use the Gay community not as Gay being stray .. on the contrary but in the way that Gay people try to mimmick the traits of how they see the opposite sex.. ie how a lesbian or bull dyke would emmulate their opinion of a man. On the other hand how a gay man would try to be more feminine by interpreting their view of a woman and then emmulating it.. They tend to eggsagerate the worst traits of gender swapping. And i truly think you should observe this in an enviroment where these people have had a few drinks to eggsagerate the effects ...

Now this is a generalisation and meant to be a talking piece so please lets not get the worng idea and get pour backs up on gay rights or something distractive like that ok ?
nice

Naniu

The world is far too complex for me to judge all the experiments with life style being conducted out there.
And I'm not going to even comment on gay versus straight.

I'm not a law maker, I'm a self definer.
SELF DEFINITION. Been doing that for years, and discovered that I have manifestation muscle.

So then I come to the point where I start finding I'm not alone, and get active on forums to get involved in group interaction
and so I notice that some of the behavior of some the people around me is really predictable.
So I feel their self definition is still stuck, and short of naming names and challenging specific individuals I just express a wish...

HERE IS MY WISH
In view of the fact that the whole world is on the brink of becoming an Orwellian nightmare,
with the whole collective unconscious throwing out this control freak global monstrosity that wishes to
enslave us, whom they see as the great unwashed, for all eternity, I'm curious if not some of our brighter members can't
think about letting go their own personal agenda for five minutes a day
and start building some kind of bond or buddy system here...
in order to pool and coordinate their capacities.

Like this:
http://healed1337.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/xmen2.jpg

Oops, I just realized how insane I am.
So let's just forget it.
Back to my old desireless state.
Erase. Delete.

Sierra
31st July 2013, 00:09
Difficult subject, difficult thread. :)

It is hard to visualize what is not there, but desperately needed... I got so very upset on a tangent of this thread (it would have been a distraction to the main theme), that I had to write Ulli privately to vent my frustration and pain.

The progression I perceive as the goal to bring about support from men, to men, requires a baseline of where change is needed, and to establish that, one has to go into the pit of pain, and release the darkness generated by the old paradigm. I myself feel completely helpless to effect any change, except in myself. I cannot imagine growing up as a male in the American culture, where you are told things we never hear (misogny/military paradigm,to hate women, and kill men) by your authority figures and peers, that prepares you to kill, just as we are prepared to be helpless and silent.

I know it can be done, I know it will be done, I try not to think of the how, let go, and live in the result. Calling on all mommies to raise their sons as lovers, wise and kind. We are part of the problem/solution too, to contravene the patriarchal training in the young. I was raised by a feminist mother, grandmother, and my great grandmother filed for divorce the day it became legal (great grandfather suffered a head injury with a combine during harvesting and turned into a cruel, unkind person), and it still did my brother no good. Illuminati asshole he is.

I ramble. Ulli, thank you for your thread. Thunder, thank you for your post.

Love, Sierra

turiya
31st July 2013, 00:53
http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/Turiya_Files_/YIN_YANG_BLUE_BACK1.png



My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT. I so wish for this to happen.

With enlightenment... that is to say when one truly becomes enlightened, one becomes truly integrated. A child is created by the union between a man & a woman... half is feminine energy coming from the mother, and half is male energy coming from the father. Each of us has a male part and a female part. This is the meaning behind the symbol of Yin & Yang. An individual may have the appearance of being a man, but behind the curtain lay the female. And the same for a woman, behind the facade there is an inner man.

The meeting of a man & a woman in relationship is simply the attempt to unite outer man & the woman within, and the outer woman with her inner man. It is an outer expression, an outer attempt, which is not at all possible in the outside world. It is not possible for the two individuals to become one. The two can only come close, but is not a real possibility for a union to occur in the outside world between two people. The union can only occur within oneself... in one's aloneness... when the outer woman meets her inner man, and the outer man meets his inner woman.

The outer is simply a reflection, an attempt to achieve that which can only happen within. The outer man meeting the outer woman is but like a practice, or a practicing, for what can come later, when the need for an outer partner is understood to not be necessary. When the understanding comes, that the other is not needed to reach higher states of consciousness. Once this union occurs, this inner union, it is what has been called brahmacharya.

The thing is: Anybody that has reached this level of awareness is also quite comfortable being on one's own, enjoys the aloneness, without feeling the 'need' to unite or be bonded with others. Others may feel to be drawn towards such an individual, but for the individual himself, there is no drive to be drawn towards, or to be associated with others, even if the other is "enlightened" him/herself.

Perhaps, you are familiar with the "enlightened" west coast couple, Gangaji & Eli Jaxon-Bear that were married (later divorced), and for some time had given joint satsangs for those that were interested. I do believe there is a video out there on youtube where they explain why they decided to separate.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLouASJQF4o



But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

To the one that is "enlightened", if that is indeed the case, then I would imagine that one would not be much affected by the ridicule or criticisms of others. After all he knows himself for what he is, and even more so, for what he isn't. Such ridicule, then, has nothing to do with him (or her), but is entirely has everything to do with those that are throwing the criticism.


The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders, establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

Society as a whole has been conditioned as such, with the use of 'higher' & 'lower' terms. Certainly, there are levels of awareness. But to describe these various levels requires word use & language to do so. Word use & language are often barriers in communication, more often than not, resulting in miscommunication, especially when it comes to those that speak from mountain peaks to those that still reside in the valleys of the world.


I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

Not sure if these critics were objecting to the enlightened male's overconfident style, and wanted to teach him a useful lesson to improve his teaching methods, or if they were merely jealous. Self-image has a lot to do with this need to never appear naive, or gullible, and so it's often an automatic response to tear down another guy, often in the name of "healthy skepticism".


More often than not, the idea of "reaching out" will be met with opposition. It will be seen as being something of a trespass if it is not preceded by an 'invitation', or a 'request' by the listener, or by the reader. 'New information' has to be asked for, before it is capable of being received by the one that is making the request. Otherwise, whatever is said as a way to "reach out" will be looked upon as a provocation, or assault on the beliefs, knowledge & notions that form the basis of one's ego. If one is not ready to let-go of one's preconceived notions, 'new information' will appear threatening to the ego. It is more than likely that the ego will react to defend itself. More often than not, an attack mode is taken as the best way to defend itself, i.e. "the best defense is a good offense".


I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.
This has been the case throughout history.



This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.
I would view it as a time of friends that are to be found in the world of the 'extended family'.

turiya :cool:

ulli
31st July 2013, 01:27
http://blog.nandakorya.jp/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Yin_and_Yang01.png



My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know, don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT. I so wish for this to happen.

With enlightenment... that is to say when one truly becomes enlightened, one becomes truly integrated. A child is created by the union between a man & a woman... half is feminine energy coming from the mother, and half is male energy coming from the father. Each of us has a male part and a female part. This is the meaning behind the symbol of Yin & Yang. An individual may have the appearance of being a man, but behind the curtain lay the female. And the same for a woman, behind the facade there is an inner man.

The meeting of a man & a woman in relationship is simply the attempt to unite outer man & the woman within, and the outer woman with her inner man. It is an outer expression, an outer attempt, which is not at all possible in the outside world. It is not possible for the two individuals to become one. The two can only come close, but is not a real possibility for a union to occur in the outside world between two people. The union can only occur within oneself... in one's aloneness... when the outer woman meets her inner man, and the outer man meets his inner woman.

The outer is simply a reflection, an attempt to achieve that which can only happen within. The outer man meeting the outer woman is but like a practice, or a practicing, for what can come later, when the need for an outer partner is understood to not be necessary. When the understanding comes, that the other is not needed to reach higher states of consciousness. Once this union occurs, this inner union, it is what has been called brahmacharya.

The thing is: Anybody that has reached this level of awareness is also quite comfortable being on one's own, enjoys the aloneness, without feeling the 'need' to unite or be bonded with others. Others may feel to be drawn towards such an individual, but for the individual himself, there is no drive to be drawn towards, or to be associated with others, even if the other is "enlightened" him/herself.

Perhaps, you are familiar with the "enlightened" west coast couple, Gangaji & Eli Jaxon-Bear that were married (later divorced), and for some time had given joint satsangs for those that were interested. I do believe there is a video out there on youtube where they explain why they decided to separate.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLouASJQF4o



But there are so many threads on this forum where any attempt by a guy who is way up there in his cosmic understanding gets either ridiculed, or similarly, if challenged in any way but another man with a similar understanding, then the challenger is dismissed in no uncertain terms.
I find this quite disappointing.

To the one that is "enlightened", if that is indeed the case, then I would imagine that one would not be much affected by the ridicule or criticisms of others. After all he knows himself for what he is, and even more so, for what he isn't. Such ridicule, then, has nothing to do with him (or her), but is entirely has everything to do with those that are throwing the criticism.


The only way to explain this is that males perceive the world as a system of vertical hierarchies, and in their innate competitiveness they create mental ladders, establishing higher and lower rungs and ranks, instead of consciously focusing on the equality principle of horizontal structures, and the power that unity creates.

Society as a whole has been conditioned as such, with the use of 'higher' & 'lower' terms. Certainly, there are levels of awareness. But to describe these various levels requires word use & language to do so. Word use & language are often barriers in communication, more often than not, resulting in miscommunication, especially when it comes to those that speak from mountain peaks to those that still reside in the valleys of the world.


I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

Not sure if these critics were objecting to the enlightened male's overconfident style, and wanted to teach him a useful lesson to improve his teaching methods, or if they were merely jealous. Self-image has a lot to do with this need to never appear naive, or gullible, and so it's often an automatic response to tear down another guy, often in the name of "healthy skepticism".


More often than not, the idea of "reaching out" will be met with opposition. It will be seen as being something of a trespass if it is not preceded by an 'invitation', or a 'request' by the listener, or by the reader. 'New information' has to be asked for, before it is capable of being received by the one that is making the request. Otherwise, whatever is said as a way to "reach out" will be looked upon as a provocation, or assault on the beliefs, knowledge & notions that form the base of one's ego. If one is not ready to let-go of one's preconceived notions, 'new information' will appear threatening to the ego. It is more than likely that the ego will react to defend itself.


I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.
This has been the case throughout history.



This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.
I would view it as a time of friends that are to be found in the world of the 'extended family'.

turiya :cool:

Good reminder. Thank you.
Now that I've dropped my dream of seeing unity outside of me I got my equilibrium back.
It's all good.

Once in a blue moon I actually care about the state of the world,
I get reminded that there are others who like me (in the past) object to political correctness,
which in turn teaches me the lesson I need here- namely that no group can ever find unity
without some level of agreement how such unity can be created and maintained.
If just one person has major issues with political correctness the group unity effort will be in vain.

ulli
31st July 2013, 01:44
Difficult subject, difficult thread. :)

It is hard to visualize what is not there, but desperately needed... I got so very upset on a tangent of this thread (it would have been a distraction to the main theme), that I had to write Ulli privately to vent my frustration and pain.

The progression I perceive as the goal to bring about support from men, to men, requires a baseline of where change is needed, and to establish that, one has to go into the pit of pain, and release the darkness generated by the old paradigm. I myself feel completely helpless to effect any change, except in myself. I cannot imagine growing up as a male in the American culture, where you are told things we never hear (misogny/military paradigm,to hate women, and kill men) by your authority figures and peers, that prepares you to kill, just as we are prepared to be helpless and silent.

I know it can be done, I know it will be done, I try not to think of the how, let go, and live in the result. Calling on all mommies to raise their sons as lovers, wise and kind. We are part of the problem/solution too, to contravene the patriarchal training in the young. I was raised by a feminist mother, grandmother, and my great grandmother filed for divorce the day it became legal (great grandfather suffered a head injury with a combine during harvesting and turned into a cruel, unkind person), and it still did my brother no good. Illuminati asshole he is.

I ramble. Ulli, thank you for your thread. Thunder, thank you for your post.

Love, Sierra

This post reminded me of the time I met the travel writer Jan Morris at my former in-laws' hotel.
Jan Morris had once been James Morris, and had fathered five children, and as a reporter for the Times of England had covered the Hilary /Tensing team Mount Everest expedition.

The sex change might have brought James/Jan Morris lasting happiness, but caused much perplexity to those who were not yet used to the idea of sex change operations, especially when they left the newly created female body with a daily 4 o'clock shadow of beard growth.
By coincidence I met someone around that time who lent me the book "Conundrum" an autobiographical account of this person's journey from male to female.
And this book shed much light on my own perplexity...what must it feel like to think as a woman but be in the body of an athletic male. Already at the age of 8 was James Morris praying to God to make him a girl.

The hardest part of life was when in a room with only men, and having to hear them boast, show off, threaten, put each other down, talk war talk, and generally be as obnoxious as can be, until a woman would walk in and the earlier conversation came to an abrupt halt.

So is all of that really the result of cultural programming?

Sierra
31st July 2013, 04:12
The hardest part of life was when in a room with only men, and having to hear them boast, show off, threaten, put each other down, talk war talk, and generally be as obnoxious as can be, until a woman would walk in and the earlier conversation came to an abrupt halt.

So is all of that really the result of cultural programming?

Yes, the abrupt halt, this information/transmission/meme is not for women. I think so. I'm just guessing, based on what I see getting passed generation to generation, not to mention all the words in the language defined to belittle women, of which there is no equivalent for the male gender. I had to look up what turned out to be an insult towards gays, and Ulli, the list was long, same thing, the language itself reflects what is. So yes, I think men for the most part, are trained by example, and coaching. I don't know why though. I guess it is part of the institutional programming in religious/military terms to prepare men for killing, can't have them feeling soft loving feelings towards others.

Haven't you heard horror stories about other men from your husband? I also assume this is why fathers can get so rabid about their young daughters dating, they know better.

Omg Ulli, JamEs/Jan Morris was one of my favorite social historians, his Rule Britannica series on the rise and fall of the British Empire was brilliant.

Sierra

turiya
31st July 2013, 05:53
The hardest part of life was when in a room with only men, and having to hear them boast, show off, threaten, put each other down, talk war talk, and generally be as obnoxious as can be, until a woman would walk in and the earlier conversation came to an abrupt halt.

So is all of that really the result of cultural programming?

Yes, the abrupt halt, this information/transmission/meme is not for women. I think so. I'm just guessing, based on what I see getting passed generation to generation, not to mention all the words in the language defined to belittle women, of which there is no equivalent for the male gender. I had to look up what turned out to be an insult towards gays, and Ulli, the list was long, same thing, the language itself reflects what is. So yes, I think men for the most part, are trained by example, and coaching. I don't know why though. I guess it is part of the institutional programming in religious/military terms to prepare men for killing, can't have them feeling soft loving feelings towards others.

Sierra

Consider the very possibility of bringing so many men to a complete halt! This only reveals the immense power that women can have over men.

Men are also quite fearful & insecure, as most everyone is. Confidence, or the lack thereof, is established at a very early age. It comes out of childhood & how one was brought up/raised. Behavior patterns, engrams, are learned at a young age. Its has a generational aspect to it as well.

But the most significant thing that can be overlooked is that men are incapable of birthing a child. This in itself shows the shear power that women hold over men. A woman gave birth to each man. And every man knows this, feels inept in comparison to what a woman can do - create life. Man can't do it - and, he knows it - so, to compensate for the lack of being able to create life, man is drawn to destroying life. It kind of gives him a sense of power that he otherwise lacks when it comes to the woman's capability of creating life.

When a woman stops man in his tracks. And I've seen it... a woman walks into a room full of men doing their thing, and the whole vibration of the room changes - instantaneously! I have often been amazed by this. So, know well - they are aware of your power.

Everyone is different - different in the learned patterns of behavior. Some will respect the power a woman possesses, some are humbled by it, others are awed by it - even stunned by it... and still others will feel threatened, envious and/or even jealous of it.

So, feel sorry for the poor, poor men - they know not what they are doing. This is really a woman's world, the woman rules. The man is basically more insecure than women, and attempts to compensate for this by seeking power over others & attain wealth to buy the love he lacks. And blaming women for why he is so much in a state of misery.


turiya :cool:

Fred Steeves
31st July 2013, 10:39
It's a shame how wildly off the mark this has veered. :ohwell:

ulli
31st July 2013, 12:06
It's a shame how wildly off the mark this has veered. :ohwell:

It's a shame how wildly off the mark the whole of humanity has veered, Fred. This is the essence of what we are addressing at Avalon. The big picture.

If this can then make people realize that change can come about if they work on themselves, not on others, then enormous progress can be made in the world, as being the change one wants to see is the foundation.
Just imagine if each and every person on earth decided to quit backbiting.
Nobody likes it when they find out that others have spread false rumors about them, yet people do it to one another.

So, this is how it has to start, self regulating adults. Once they make progress in this they will discover surges of power flowing into them.
What this thread is about is to take this idea to the next level...
that all those who have experienced this empowerment...(and I never meant enlightenment in the sense that some eastern practices aim for, but something a bit more modest, more practical for the formation of a healthy and just society), can then form loose-knit groups and friendships.
The current format of information exchange is still based on one person with a microphone sending in front of a roomful of listeners, for several hours, sometimes, when in fact all the listeners are themselves full of useful information.

I just want to see more mingling. This is why I said this thread has run it's course...
I'm off to do some mingling.

ulli
31st July 2013, 12:16
Consider the very possibility of bringing so many men to a complete halt! This only reveals the immense power that women can have over men.

Men are also quite fearful & insecure, as most everyone is. Confidence, or the lack thereof, is established at a very early age. It comes out of childhood & how one was brought up/raised. Behavior patterns, engrams, are learned at a young age. Its has a generational aspect to it as well.

But the most significant thing that can be overlooked is that men are incapable of birthing a child. This in itself shows the shear power that women hold over men. A woman gave birth to each man. And every man knows this, feels inept in comparison to what a woman can do - create life. Man can't do it - and, he knows it - so, to compensate for the lack of being able to create life, man is drawn to destroying life. It kind of gives him a sense of power that he otherwise lacks when it comes to the woman's capability of creating life.

When a woman stops man in his tracks. And I've seen it... a woman walks into a room full of men doing their thing, and the whole vibration of the room changes - instantaneously! I have often been amazed by this. So, know well - they are aware of your power.

Everyone is different - different in the learned patterns of behavior. Some will respect the power a woman possesses, some are humbled by it, others are awed by it - even stunned by it... and still others will feel threatened, envious and/or even jealous of it.

So, feel sorry for the poor, poor men - they know not what they are doing. This is really a woman's world, the woman rules. The man is basically more insecure than women, and attempts to compensate for this by seeking power over others & attain wealth to buy the love he lacks. And blaming women for why he is so much in a state of misery.


turiya :cool:

Thanks, turiya. You hit the ail on the head...I have had those same thoughts many times in my musings and search for the causes of the gender wars.
But then I ask myself what good does it do if this type of analysis keeps the duality consciousness going?
So I always end up back at the spiritual, wholeness level...

That the eternal spirit needs no procreation.
It is sexless, and it has no survival issues.
Ego gets dumped together with the body when the moment comes.
And then I just take myself back there, mentally, to my eternal spiritual home,
hunting for my spiritual memories as well as agendas.

Finefeather
31st July 2013, 12:39
This era is no longer about male guru-ship, and their female followers, like we saw in the last (20th) century, but a brotherly-sisterly equality team job which all sides need to participate in.

Hi All...trust you are all well and happy in your chosen gender :)

There is a decided influence which the organism/physical body has on the incarnating being. This is due to the hormonal qualities...amongst other things.
We should also not forget that there is no gender in between lives and so we are still largely driven by sub-conscious instincts.

If we have had many consecutive lives as a woman and now incarnate as a male...some adjustment is often quite difficult...and visa versa...this by the way is often the cause of homosexuality and lesbianism.

The attitude, of each incarnating being is dependent on the consciousness level... enlightenment, if you like...achieved in a Beings many past lives...thousands of them...up to the present incarnation.
The spiritual traits we see in each person are extremely diverse generally, and this together with the male/female body influence can be easily mistaken for two quite different species. The attitude differences are quite profound between the typical male and typical female.

It is only when consciousness growth is well on the way that humans begin to act like humans should act...seeing each gender for the part they play in the greater scheme. Unfortunately we are generally still quite far from been what a human aught to be like...despite our often arrogant attitudes as far as our spiritual development is concerned.

Take care
Ray

Carmody
31st July 2013, 12:42
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

jiminii
31st July 2013, 13:10
Thanks, turiya. You hit the ail on the head...I have had those same thoughts many times in my musings and search for the causes of the gender wars.
But then I ask myself what good does it do if this type of analysis keeps the duality consciousness going?
So I always end up back at the spiritual, wholeness level...

That the eternal spirit needs no procreation.
It is sexless, and it has no survival issues.
Ego gets dumped together with the body when the moment comes.
And then I just take myself back there, mentally, to my eternal spiritual home,
hunting for my spiritual memories as well as agendas.

a boy like a girl so he puts this tractor beam around her
this causes her to put up a presser beam to push him away
she has a tractor beam around another boy ... and this causes him to put up a presser beam to her to push her away

so you end up with all the boys/girls you are reaching for are moving away and all the boys/girls who are reaching for you you are pushing away ..

it is so balanced it is like trying to balance a bowling ball on the head of a pin ... the slightest pull gets a push and vice versus

so now you got this pretty girl ... she puts up a reverse tractor ... she wants someone to want her ...

this turns the beam around and creates this huge vacuum ... and they walk into the room and every boys head snaps to her direction EVEN IF HE IS NOT FACING HER TO SEE HER ... the energy just snaps his head that way

but because this is a reverse tractor and is an inflow ... anyone who tries to pull on the beam will cause to beam to snap back at him ... knocking him away

and in high school we used to call these girls "TEASERS"

so she finds a boy who also has a reverse tractor ... and as long as he thinks she loves him ... and as long as she thinks he loves her .. the beams can hold together ..
and can make a relationship ....

now how does this work ... he would say "I don't want someone if they don't want me ... " .. and this might cause her to say .. "me too .. if the person doesn't want me .. I
don't want someone if they don't want me" ... and they kind of give each other the idea they want the other

but this is only held by energy ... if either one of them get the slightest idea the other doesn't want them .. the whole thing blows up .. and the relationship is destroyed ..

so if you use energy you usually lose ...

if you use words like I want .. I need .. and these are all pulling words .. it pushes them away

if you use words like I like being with you ... these words are not in motion ... so you can easily get agreement

so ... I really don't think the girl has power using reverse tractor beams to snap all the boys heads her way

jim

ulli
31st July 2013, 13:19
Thanks, turiya. You hit the ail on the head...I have had those same thoughts many times in my musings and search for the causes of the gender wars.
But then I ask myself what good does it do if this type of analysis keeps the duality consciousness going?
So I always end up back at the spiritual, wholeness level...

That the eternal spirit needs no procreation.
It is sexless, and it has no survival issues.
Ego gets dumped together with the body when the moment comes.
And then I just take myself back there, mentally, to my eternal spiritual home,
hunting for my spiritual memories as well as agendas.

a boy like a girl so he puts this tractor beam around her
this causes her to put up a presser beam to push him away
she has a tractor beam around another boy ... and this causes him to put up a presser beam to her to push her away

so you end up with all the boys/girls you are reaching for are moving away and all the boys/girls who are reaching for you you are pushing away ..

it is so balanced it is like trying to balance a bowling ball on the head of a pin ... the slightest pull gets a push and vice versus

so now you got this pretty girl ... she puts up a reverse tractor ... she wants someone to want her ...

this turns the beam around and creates this huge vacuum ... and they walk into the room and every boys head snaps to her direction EVEN IF HE IS NOT FACING HER TO SEE HER ... the energy just snaps his head that way

and in high school we used to call these girls "TEASERS"

so she finds a boy who also has a reverse tractor ... and as long as he thinks she loves him ... and as long as she thinks he loves her .. the beams can hold together ..
and can make a relationship ....

but because this is a reverse tractor and is an inflow ... anyone who tries to pull on the beam will cause to beam to snap back at him ... knocking him away ..

now how does this work ... he would say "I don't want someone if they don't want me ... " .. and this might cause her to say .. "me too .. if the person doesn't want me .. I
don't want someone if they don't want me" ... and they kind of give each other the idea they want the other

but this is only held by energy ... if either one of them get the slightest idea the other doesn't want them .. the whole thing blows up .. and the relationship is destroyed ..

so if you use energy you usually lose ...

if you use words like I want .. I need .. and these are all pulling words .. it pushes them away

if you use words like I like being with you ... these words are not in motion ... so you can easily get agreement

so ... I really don't think the girl has power using reverse tractor beams to snap all the boys heads her way

jim


Yeah, it does work like that..I have noticed it myself.
Only a neutral stance can help one with real objective creativity.

Hey, Jim, you forgot about this one:
Groucho Marx...
I don't want to be a member of a club that will have me as a member.
What's with that energy then?

jiminii
31st July 2013, 13:24
Yeah, it does work like that..I have noticed it myself.
Only a neutral stance can help one with real objective creativity.

Hey, Jim, you forgot about this one:
Groucho Marx...
I don't want to be a member of a club that will have me as a member.
What's with that energy then?

i guess that is just a good joke

hahaha

jim

ulli
31st July 2013, 13:43
i guess that is just a good joke

hahaha

jim

Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

donk
31st July 2013, 14:12
Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

Are you trying to suggest that people are more concerned with images, being right (appearing “better”) than learning and growing and discovering “truth”. Cuz I’m on board if you are…

I get kinda lost sometimes though….were we talking about p!ssing contests, and then one broke out?

When I was in 4th grade, bussed in to the inner city school…my classmates and I would have long-shot contests, where we started at the urinal, and then kept taking steps back, mid-urination, and whoever was still hitting it from the farthest away was the winner.

Some played to win, to be the longest p!sser. Some played to not be ostercized from the rest of group. Some were too self-conscious to get involved. Me? I had two reasons…I was curious to see how far I could p!ss…and more importantly: I liked a chance to p!ss on the floor, besides being fun—I hated that school.

ulli
31st July 2013, 14:34
Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.l
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

Are you trying to suggest that people are more concerned with images, being right (appearing “better”) than learning and growing and discovering “truth”. Cuz I’m on board if you are…

I get kinda lost sometimes though….were we talking about p!ssing contests, and then one broke out?

When I was in 4th grade, bussed in to the inner city school…my classmates and I would have long-shot contests, where we started at the urinal, and then kept taking steps back, mid-urination, and whoever was still hitting it from the farthest away was the winner.

Some played to win, to be the longest p!sser. Some played to not be ostercized from the rest of group. Some were too self-conscious to get involved. Me? I had two reasons…I was curious to see how far I could p!ss…and more importantly: I liked a chance to p!ss on the floor, besides being fun—I hated that school.


Pissing on the floor of a school one hates would only upset the janitor,
who then goes home and beats up the kids, who in turn torture the cat.

Or were you hoping to get expelled and placed in a better school?

I was once in a house where there was no bathroom at all, nor furniture,
except for rolled-up hammocks on the wall, and the house rule was to piss through the cracks in the floor boards...
If you missed you would end up sitting in your own piss for the rest of the day, or stand outside in the rain.

jiminii
31st July 2013, 14:34
Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

i was too innocent and shy to know any difference in anything. for a long time i was too gullible to believe people lied to me

and i kept believing everyone was good and even today i keep finding out it is much worse than i thought

but i still keep believing that no matter how bad it is we're all going to make it

that is what the metteyya in me decided

why ???

because there couldn't be any game anywhere bigger than this ... and ... it is literally looked at as an impossible game ...

but the game is ... and I don't mind say ... bringing everyone home ..

it is like seeing a miracle of Inelia .. bringing home the most corrupt sick person who's done the worse things anyone can imagine ...

and he was at the point of transition ... he wanted it ... and she gave it to him ...

so this is the most difficult game to play ... that was ever played

bringing them all home ... so I guess they needed someone as gullible and innocent as me ... who under any circumstances ... with every negative thing under the sun ..hitting me ... and still wanting to bring everyone home ....

it takes people like this

jim

Carmody
31st July 2013, 14:37
Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

Are you trying to suggest that people are more concerned with images, being right (appearing “better”) than learning and growing and discovering “truth”. Cuz I’m on board if you are…

I get kinda lost sometimes though….were we talking about p!ssing contests, and then one broke out?

When I was in 4th grade, bussed in to the inner city school…my classmates and I would have long-shot contests, where we started at the urinal, and then kept taking steps back, mid-urination, and whoever was still hitting it from the farthest away was the winner.

Some played to win, to be the longest p!sser. Some played to not be ostercized from the rest of group. Some were too self-conscious to get involved. Me? I had two reasons…I was curious to see how far I could p!ss…and more importantly: I liked a chance to p!ss on the floor, besides being fun—I hated that school.

This is sort of what I'm talking about when I speak of male escalation, new norms, searching for new pleasures that are a differential, higher than the new plateau that people are on. In this case, dominant males in a system that is stable ....and then seeking to be dominant in that system.

This means they seek a higher... escalation.

I explained it to a friend the other day, in this way.

First man through the door, pushes the person aside.

Second man through the doorway kills the person.

Third man through the doorway decapitates the corpse.

Fourth man through the doorway has sex with it.

escalation, escalation, escalation, and decay....as forms of projected dominance.

When the male is allowed to exist in his ego as a projection of his thought formation, and this is allowed to arise as a system of patriarchy and societal control and subjugation.... then this horrific decay is the final result. The smaller circles of logic of ego outward projection...don't allow for the understanding that the body's ego 'rose colored glasses' exhibit and are the formation of all thought pattern development. If that ego is allowed to persist, then the animal decay to new heights from the last..is always the result.

When any form of this comes toward a person or a group, they should consider stopping it in it's tracks and making sure it moves no further and also that it is ended in it's entirety, in it's totality. As left alone, it's infection will continue, unabated, always seeking a path. to remove it at the root, at the formation of it's origins.

Which circles all the way back to the stories of a 'bookmark' a 'path' being inserted into the moment of creation of the human avatar, in the root system of the avatar embodiment pathways. Like programmers build into their software, someone built a back door into the depths of the human avatar. Down in the origins of thought formation, where it sits unrecognized by the developed consciousness aspects of 3D linear time existence.

That ego, it is the block, the diode, the porcupine quill of not allowing for the looking inward. A literal block on inner thought, blocking higher mind and lower mind connectivity...labeled and covered with a block built on pain and suffering if one should try. the ego is an enforced smaller circle of knowing and logic.

And the patriarchal system we have today, in society, religion, science, politics, finance, academia, and so on.... is the literal arm of enforcement in keeping it in place.

ulli
31st July 2013, 14:42
i was too innocent and shy to know any difference in anything. for a long time i was too gullible to believe people lied to me

and i kept believing everyone was good and even today i keep finding out it is much worse than i thought

but i still keep believing that no matter how bad it is we're all going to make it

that is what the metteyya in me decided

why ???

because there couldn't be any game anywhere bigger than this ... and ... it is literally looked at as an impossible game ...

but the game is ... and I don't mind say ... bringing everyone home ..

it is like seeing a miracle of Inelia .. bringing home the most corrupt sick person who's done the worse things anyone can imagine ...

and he was at the point of transition ... he wanted it ... and she gave it to him ...

so this is the most difficult game to play ... that was ever played

bringing them all home ... so I guess they needed someone as gullible and innocent as me ... who under any circumstances ... with every negative thing under the sun ..hitting me ... and still wanting to bring everyone home ....

it takes people like this

jim

That's what I love about Leos...that belief in the goodness of people.
It makes for a hard life to have such a belief shattered, constantly.
A lot of disappointments. How you must have suffered.

But without that belief there would be no homecoming for any of us.
Don't change, Jiminii.

Just follow my advice and find yourself some really good buddies among the men here...
who share your agenda.
Then us women can rest in the knowledge that our children and grandchildren
can have a future waiting for them after all.

Carmody
31st July 2013, 14:56
i was too innocent and shy to know any difference in anything. for a long time i was too gullible to believe people lied to me

and i kept believing everyone was good and even today i keep finding out it is much worse than i thought

but i still keep believing that no matter how bad it is we're all going to make it

that is what the metteyya in me decided

why ???

because there couldn't be any game anywhere bigger than this ... and ... it is literally looked at as an impossible game ...

but the game is ... and I don't mind say ... bringing everyone home ..

it is like seeing a miracle of Inelia .. bringing home the most corrupt sick person who's done the worse things anyone can imagine ...

and he was at the point of transition ... he wanted it ... and she gave it to him ...

so this is the most difficult game to play ... that was ever played

bringing them all home ... so I guess they needed someone as gullible and innocent as me ... who under any circumstances ... with every negative thing under the sun ..hitting me ... and still wanting to bring everyone home ....

it takes people like this

jim

That's what I love about Leos...that belief in the goodness of people.
It makes for a hard life to have such a belief shattered, constantly.
A lot of disappointments. How you must have suffered.

But without that belief there would be no homecoming for any of us.
Don't change, Jiminii.

Just follow my advice and find yourself some really good buddies among the men here...
who share your agenda.
Then us women can rest in the knowledge that our children and grandchildren
can have a future waiting for them after all.

Which is why I said:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=706444&viewfull=1#post706444

One and the same.. Both. A note in clarity of logic... and a way out. That the way out exists, still.

But that the message must be clear. That the escalation is at the termination point. And at the termination point, lies the end of the path, where it's return to source or the grind to neutral interdimensional dust.

jiminii
31st July 2013, 14:59
what if the changes are what I think they will be .... we will have new bodies that are very light that can let us operate a 3d body being in a 4d environment ... meaning we are in the spirit ... but we have a body that can move with it too ... and this body doesn't need food

it can eat food if it likes to taste it ... but doesn't need it to exist

jim

ulli
31st July 2013, 15:24
Which is why I said:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=706444&viewfull=1#post706444

One and the same.. Both. A note in clarity of logic... and a way out. That the way out exist, still.

Bu that the message must be clear. That the escalation is at the termination point. And at the termination point, lies the end of the path, where it's return to source or the grind to neutral interdimensional dust.

You know Carmody, why it is so hard to express this message clearly, in my view?

Because it means over and over stating the obvious.
And I believe people have a fear of stating the obvious,
less they appear dull, when in fact the age-old truth are never dull.

When matters of consciousness are being discussed the level of consciousness rises,
which in turn triggers memories in people, and so they say,
I KNEW all that already, why are you stating the obvious?

So in view of such reactions it requires courage to make these statements
but NOT doing it means that the egoic self will take over,
again and again, with ever-advancing insistence.
Because not many people on earth know how to keep the inner light glowing
and so we need one another to light our pilot lights.

These eternal truths have been around for a long time, and been hammered into people's heads....
and the old language has left negative associations, but as you say it is simple logic.

araucaria
31st July 2013, 16:03
I think this video belongs on this thread too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p02W2dnob38[/url]

Sierra
31st July 2013, 16:10
Really? Jealous of women? I'm boggled. I was always jealous that my life was so restricted as a female, for safety reasons. Babysat too much, learned at a young age I wanted to be a bookworm, not a mother. A somewhat Illuminati upbringing also showed me it was not safe to have children, I would not be able to protect them.

A woman's world? I can't see that around me in 3D turiya, I do see what Carmody describes, escalation of the Illuminati paradigm, to the point it is not safe to be a woman or child in most countries around the world. Maybe Bhutan ... Though with the introduction of television, Bhutan is now experiencing their first cases of rape and drug use.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 20:11
How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

Naniu

I grew up with that model, too, Naniu. The one I’ve spoken about since the early 1970’s is one where both 'Mom' and 'Dad' have the equivalent of one job. We live within our means. Alway end the month in black and put a little money aside.

The family is strong because there’s balance between family time and time for personal growth.

There’s a community spot with a fire pit for those that want to join in with such things as eats and greets, music and stories and sports just for the sake of play and exercise.

wow a fire pit .. hmmm sounds like your family knew true values. what a lovely sounding home to grow up in : 0 )

N

RunningDeer
31st July 2013, 20:35
How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

Naniu

I grew up with that model, too, Naniu. The one I’ve spoken about since the early 1970’s is one where both 'Mom' and 'Dad' have the equivalent of one job. We live within our means. Alway end the month in black and put a little money aside.

The family is strong because there’s balance between family time and time for personal growth.

There’s a community spot with a fire pit for those that want to join in with such things as eats and greets, music and stories and sports just for the sake of play and exercise.

wow a fire pit .. hmmm sounds like your family knew true values. what a lovely sounding home to grow up in : 0 )

N

No, that's what I've envisioned since my son was small in the early 1970's. The description you wrote fits how I grew up in the 1950's. Dad worked, Mom stayed home with kids, kids, and more kids.

What's fair and reasonable IMO is if a money system has to be, then both parents have a part time job equivalent to one job. That way there's quality time in love, play and personal growth. Where there's balance, the families' needs are more in line with time spent together rather than: toys, monster home with upkeep, and the work car, the weekend car and the car to keep up with the Jones. (Exaggeration here. I know people struggle more and more with small pensions, unemployment, or one needs two jobs just to to survive on minimum wage earnings.)

It'll take a major rethink and willingness of a do-over for families. I realize that it's a challenge in these times. But, I believe there are ways to incrementally change spending habits and create lasting memories instead. On top of that often there seems to be a spender and a saver in relationships. The partners need to be on board.

Damn, I hate it when I state the obvious. Don't mean to offend any one's intelligence here. This is one reason why I delete posts. I could have stopped at the first paragraph.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 20:36
I think this video belongs on this thread too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p02W2dnob38[/url]

excellent video and it does not surprise me in the least. It makes sense that it was a woman trying to spread spirituality and equality. Hence why it was so opposed by the ptb. hmm

I remember a while back i was stating in my spiritual groups that it is dominated mostly by women, when i say dominated i mean attendance but in my closest spiritual church of which i am a brother there are almost equal amounts of men and women , i would say 60% woman 40% man.

Women have always been the holder or spirit. It is the softer side and perhaps even a gender role. The spirit is soft and gentle. The common msconception of gender in historical accounts is that men have historically been the agressor and its true but its propensity as such is because of the natural physical strength of a man.

i believe if we were to reverse engineer men and women id say a greater part of the " physical strength " in its evolution decided its tendantcy to be " enforcer " and thus evolved as such. Men generally do not wish to be seen as spiritual because socially they have a fear of being demasculated .. this is something of a western trait as in most oriental circles the most spiritual of men are the most feared warriors however the spiritual side tends to make them a worrior only when nessesary as opposed to instigation.

i had written a story many years go when i was very young of my theory behind the fall of rome ... i remember when i denounced catholicism at age 14 that soon after i wrote this story and seeing this video today makes my story all the more accurate now .. hmm

very nice find Araucaria : 0 ) your mind is excellent indeed .

Naniu

RunningDeer
31st July 2013, 20:40
Darn. I went and made another post by mistake.

Ulli, I'm thinkin' the post above is off topic. As I understand it, the main point of the thread is about this community at Avalon coming together to share ideas and encouragement.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 20:43
How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

Naniu

I grew up with that model, too, Naniu. The one I’ve spoken about since the early 1970’s is one where both 'Mom' and 'Dad' have the equivalent of one job. We live within our means. Alway end the month in black and put a little money aside.

The family is strong because there’s balance between family time and time for personal growth.

There’s a community spot with a fire pit for those that want to join in with such things as eats and greets, music and stories and sports just for the sake of play and exercise.

wow a fire pit .. hmmm sounds like your family knew true values. what a lovely sounding home to grow up in : 0 )

N

No, that's what I've envisioned since my son was small in the early 1970's. The description you wrote fits how I grew up. Dad worked, Mom stayed home with kids, kids, and more kids.

What's fair and reasonable IMO is if a money system has to be, then both parents have a part time job equivalent to one job. That way there's quality time in love, play and personal growth. Where there's balance, the families' needs are more in line with time spent together rather than: toys, monster home with upkeep, and the work car, the weekend car and the car to keep up with the Jones.

It'll take a major rethink and willingness of a do-over for families. I realize that it's a challenge in these times. But, I believe there are ways to incrementally change spending habits and create lasting memories instead. On top of that often there seems to be a spender and a saver in relationships. The partners need to be on board.

Damn, I hate it when I state the obvious. Don't mean to offend any one's intelligence here. This is one reason why I delete posts. I could have stopped at the first paragraph.

It is nessesary Paula , you write well and we do need reminding. We cant forget the right way .

The problem i see today is mostly financial. a while back one wage could sustain a family .. today 2 good wages is barely enough..

So its back to basics imo. buy a plot of land , buld a modist home and tend to the land : 0 ) thats a dream oh and lots of chickens running round pecking at the ground ...

N

ulli
31st July 2013, 20:48
Darn. I went and made another post by mistake.

Ulli, I'm thinkin' the post above is off topic. As I understand it, the main point of the thread is about this community at Avalon coming together to share ideas and encouragement.

Not off topic, Paula. Conversations are part of bonding.
No worries.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 20:51
Difficult subject, difficult thread. :)

It is hard to visualize what is not there, but desperately needed... I got so very upset on a tangent of this thread (it would have been a distraction to the main theme), that I had to write Ulli privately to vent my frustration and pain.

The progression I perceive as the goal to bring about support from men, to men, requires a baseline of where change is needed, and to establish that, one has to go into the pit of pain, and release the darkness generated by the old paradigm. I myself feel completely helpless to effect any change, except in myself. I cannot imagine growing up as a male in the American culture, where you are told things we never hear (misogny/military paradigm,to hate women, and kill men) by your authority figures and peers, that prepares you to kill, just as we are prepared to be helpless and silent.

I know it can be done, I know it will be done, I try not to think of the how, let go, and live in the result. Calling on all mommies to raise their sons as lovers, wise and kind. We are part of the problem/solution too, to contravene the patriarchal training in the young. I was raised by a feminist mother, grandmother, and my great grandmother filed for divorce the day it became legal (great grandfather suffered a head injury with a combine during harvesting and turned into a cruel, unkind person), and it still did my brother no good. Illuminati asshole he is.

I ramble. Ulli, thank you for your thread. Thunder, thank you for your post.

Love, Sierra

This post reminded me of the time I met the travel writer Jan Morris at my former in-laws' hotel.
Jan Morris had once been James Morris, and had fathered five children, and as a reporter for the Times of England had covered the Hilary /Tensing team Mount Everest expedition.

The sex change might have brought James/Jan Morris lasting happiness, but caused much perplexity to those who were not yet used to the idea of sex change operations, especially when they left the newly created female body with a daily 4 o'clock shadow of beard growth.
By coincidence I met someone around that time who lent me the book "Conundrum" an autobiographical account of this person's journey from male to female.
And this book shed much light on my own perplexity...what must it feel like to think as a woman but be in the body of an athletic male. Already at the age of 8 was James Morris praying to God to make him a girl.

The hardest part of life was when in a room with only men, and having to hear them boast, show off, threaten, put each other down, talk war talk, and generally be as obnoxious as can be, until a woman would walk in and the earlier conversation came to an abrupt halt.

So is all of that really the result of cultural programming?

If you are referring to Jan in the question id say Jan decided to become that which she related to the most. Must have been a special person , a deep thinker and very giving. Could cultural programming be a part ? yes and no ... cultural paradigms become programming to the proportional ability for one to remain them selves. If you are happy as you are and know it , then social programming can be less effective however on a long enough tme line yes social programs have a greater effect.

N

ulli
31st July 2013, 20:57
How many women and men here truly wish for it to be the way it was in the 50's ? show of hands ? typically the man went out to work 10 hours a day ( only 5 day working week mind you ) to provide shelter , food and lifestyle , the woman tended to the home , the children and up bringing of the childrens best morals and ideals supported by the father showing the role of a hard working ethic to earn a good and honest living in a home where love, understanding, charity and creativity were encouraged. The family had neighbours they had over for dinner and the family unit was the way it was supposed to be .. " A FAmily ! "

dont you dare tell me its a fantasy ! i grew up with it and so did a lot of us on here .. just because some didnt have such a priivellige dosent mean its not a model we cannot aspire to.

Naniu

I grew up with that model, too, Naniu. The one I’ve spoken about since the early 1970’s is one where both 'Mom' and 'Dad' have the equivalent of one job. We live within our means. Alway end the month in black and put a little money aside.

The family is strong because there’s balance between family time and time for personal growth.

There’s a community spot with a fire pit for those that want to join in with such things as eats and greets, music and stories and sports just for the sake of play and exercise.

wow a fire pit .. hmmm sounds like your family knew true values. what a lovely sounding home to grow up in : 0 )

N

No, that's what I've envisioned since my son was small in the early 1970's. The description you wrote fits how I grew up. Dad worked, Mom stayed home with kids, kids, and more kids.

What's fair and reasonable IMO is if a money system has to be, then both parents have a part time job equivalent to one job. That way there's quality time in love, play and personal growth. Where there's balance, the families' needs are more in line with time spent together rather than: toys, monster home with upkeep, and the work car, the weekend car and the car to keep up with the Jones.

It'll take a major rethink and willingness of a do-over for families. I realize that it's a challenge in these times. But, I believe there are ways to incrementally change spending habits and create lasting memories instead. On top of that often there seems to be a spender and a saver in relationships. The partners need to be on board.

Damn, I hate it when I state the obvious. Don't mean to offend any one's intelligence here. This is one reason why I delete posts. I could have stopped at the first paragraph.

It is nessesary Paula , you write well and we do need reminding. We cant forget the right way .

The problem i see today is mostly financial. a while back one wage could sustain a family .. today 2 good wages is barely enough..


So its back to basics imo. buy a plot of land , buld a modist home and tend to the land : 0 ) thats a dream oh and lots of chickens running round pecking at the ground ...

N


Seconds after reading about chickens running around and pecking at the ground this email arrived:
http://www.nextworldtv.com/videos/growing-food/backyard-farmers-by-necessity-self-sufficient--debt-free-.html

Haven't even had time to watch it yet.
Just the title shows me that here is a meaningful synchronicity.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 21:04
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

PS heres a list of women behind the scenes

http://www.forbes.com/power-women/list/

in positions of absolute power with the ability to shape the globe ... but where are we headed ? think !

PS i love how hillary is named Personality / philanthropist lol now thats funny

Fred Steeves
31st July 2013, 21:09
I have a very serious question here: Would this world supposedly be a much nicer place were it dominated by the feminine, and not the masculine?

22198

skippy
31st July 2013, 21:13
http://users.skynet.be/reves/alchimy1.JPG

Aurora Consurgens, 15th century

ulli
31st July 2013, 21:14
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ulli
31st July 2013, 21:21
Ok, here is one of the Baha'i teachings on equality, and I happen to believe it.
Consider this is coming out of 19 th century Persia.

Only when an equal number of women sits in the world's parliaments will large scale wars cease...
as no woman will vote for war, since she gave birth and raised her sons.
Something to that effect.

While provocative women play a role in conflict that should not be ignored,
yet the final act of violence that ensues should never be excused.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 21:27
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ok now im confused ... hmm

i was being nice ... i was being fair ... is that not allowed ?>

N

ulli
31st July 2013, 21:37
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ok now im confused ... hmm

i was being nice ... i was being fair ... is that not allowed ?>

N

It was still a disagreement with someone else's opinion. Here is what you could have done:
Ignored the post and shared your own vision of the ideal world.
You already did, when you said how nice things were in the fifties.
But you could have played with that idea some more...
Maybe the fifties post war era could still have had some improvements...
After all, the new fridges and open automobiles and drive-in cinemas didn't last forever.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 21:39
Ok, here is one of the Baha'i teachings on equality, and I happen to believe it.
Consider this is coming out of 19 th century Persia.

Only when an equal number of women sits in the world's parliaments will large scale wars cease...
as no woman will vote for war, since she gave birth and raised her sons.
Something to that effect.

While provocative women play a role in conflict that should not be ignored,
yet the final act of violence that ensues should never be excused.

Since the 19th century a lot has happened ... and we now have some retrospect to this teaching and we see its not entirely accurate.

I am presenting a non biased aporaisil of the bigger picture , it is not gender biased in any way. however ive read some rather large misconceptions which in my experience are not even remotely true.

I hope this clarifies my position.

N

ulli
31st July 2013, 21:42
I have a very serious question here: Would this world supposedly be a much nicer place were it dominated by the feminine, and not the masculine?

22198

Fred, what this thread is really about is in my opening post
where I expressed the wish for the men here to become friends with one another,
and less be competitive, remember?

So, a world where women dominate would create just as much imbalance...
just a different form...

the perfect society needs balance, justice, equal rights for all.

Women without men to balance them can be pretty nightmarish and neurotic.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 21:46
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ok now im confused ... hmm

i was being nice ... i was being fair ... is that not allowed ?>

N

It was still a disagreement with someone else's opinion. Here is what you could have done:
Ignored the post and shared your own vision of the ideal world.
You already did, when you said how nice things were in the fifties.
But you could have played with that idea some more...
Maybe the fifties post war era could still have had some improvements...
After all, the new fridges and open automobiles and drive-in cinemas didn't last forever.

Ulli you are not being fair , in just the last page you agreed with a biased view against men and agreed with it whole heartedly ... hmm

i refer to extract ...



Posted by turiya (here)
Consider the very possibility of bringing so many men to a complete halt! This only reveals the immense power that women can have over men.

Men are also quite fearful & insecure, as most everyone is. Confidence, or the lack thereof, is established at a very early age. It comes out of childhood & how one was brought up/raised. Behavior patterns, engrams, are learned at a young age. Its has a generational aspect to it as well.

But the most significant thing that can be overlooked is that men are incapable of birthing a child. This in itself shows the shear power that women hold over men. A woman gave birth to each man. And every man knows this, feels inept in comparison to what a woman can do - create life. Man can't do it - and, he knows it - so, to compensate for the lack of being able to create life, man is drawn to destroying life. It kind of gives him a sense of power that he otherwise lacks when it comes to the woman's capability of creating life.

When a woman stops man in his tracks. And I've seen it... a woman walks into a room full of men doing their thing, and the whole vibration of the room changes - instantaneously! I have often been amazed by this. So, know well - they are aware of your power.

Everyone is different - different in the learned patterns of behavior. Some will respect the power a woman possesses, some are humbled by it, others are awed by it - even stunned by it... and still others will feel threatened, envious and/or even jealous of it.

So, feel sorry for the poor, poor men - they know not what they are doing. This is really a woman's world, the woman rules. The man is basically more insecure than women, and attempts to compensate for this by seeking power over others & attain wealth to buy the love he lacks. And blaming women for why he is so much in a state of misery.


turiya
Thanks, turiya. You hit the ail on the head...I have had those same thoughts many times in my musings and search for the causes of the gender wars.


I dont see you pulling up Turiya's post ... or have i mis read the purpose of the thread ?


N

RunningDeer
31st July 2013, 21:48
Deleted does not move the thread forward.

Nanoo Nanoo
31st July 2013, 21:49
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ok now im confused ... hmm

i was being nice ... i was being fair ... is that not allowed ?>

N

It was still a disagreement with someone else's opinion. Here is what you could have done:
Ignored the post and shared your own vision of the ideal world.
You already did, when you said how nice things were in the fifties.
But you could have played with that idea some more...
Maybe the fifties post war era could still have had some improvements...
After all, the new fridges and open automobiles and drive-in cinemas didn't last forever.

I dont think you are leading by example .. you actually agreed with it ... so this is your opinion of man ? then this thread is biased and cannot achieve its goals in equality .. diacotical if you ask me ..

if i correct a skewed view to promote equality then that fits the true purpose of the thread , no ?
its got nothing to do with me being male ...

N
N

ulli
31st July 2013, 22:09
No big deal, Nanoo.
But this is getting a bit complicated, since my memory isn't that great any more.
I have a feeling that you misunderstood what I replied there to Turiya.

What I had understood Turiya to say there was the about the instinctive layers at work between men and women.

I just can't go over each nuance of my earlier posts, so let me clarify here where I stand
Once and for all.

Men and women are basically equal, as male and female complement each other.

Where trouble enters is when a person acts based on instinct,
rather than considers the consequences of their actions,
and uses their intelligence to consider the good of the whole.

A group that has a common vision ought to build on that common vision
rather than waste energy in endless arguing.

Every time anyone makes a point around here
someone who deems themselves cleverer shoots it down,
when instead they could at least ask for clarification.
This is what I was referring to, this competitiveness.

I'm sure it is all cultural. And yes, western culture has gotten so out of hand
that more and more women have become competitive.
I covered all this already in several posts earlier in the thread.

So can we just leave the whole debate thing alone, please?
It doesn't lead anywhere.
For the sake of peace I will retract all my statements
that men are more competitive than women.

ulli
31st July 2013, 22:39
That is a conclusion I came to as an early teen male. That men seemed to think that since they cannot bring new to the world, that they have devolved to controlling the leading edge of humanity's 'change' via destruction and death. they have gone egoic and plutonian. The mirror of ego and the advance of death and destruction as a pair, trying to gain security through the projection of death.

This patriarchal leadership and hierarchy system has devolved to that base animal/monkey level.

And that..is pretty damned far from 'life'.

I think we are painting all the bad parts of the world as the fault of men .. Lets take a step back and look at some of the most powerful women in the world and their absolute destructive and immoral roles in todays war like paradigm. I think that men are seen as the agressor because they are in the front line .. sent out to soldier but behind the scenes we see equal amounts of both genders pulling the strings... remember who it is thats capped the royalty and its direction for the last 50 years ? ..

its a woman ... and one who rules with an iron fist. dont get too caught up in male pawns standing in front of powerful queens with clean gloves ...

I dont know one man that would even consider wanting to give berth to a child ,.. its not in ur nature to want to .. thats a confusion.

on top of this if you were to take away the cap stone 80 % of all conflict on the planet would cease. So its more manufactured than Mens natural propensity to wage war. You are judging the many by the acts of few and behind the scenes the few are genrally equal in both genders ...

Naniu

Nanoo, how could you.
I sent you a sweet home farming video to watch
and instead of watching it you had to go and peck at Carmody's post.
This is the male thing I'm talking about...
I don't see this going on among the women...
Be nice now, please.

ok now im confused ... hmm

i was being nice ... i was being fair ... is that not allowed ?>

N

It was still a disagreement with someone else's opinion. Here is what you could have done:
Ignored the post and shared your own vision of the ideal world.
You already did, when you said how nice things were in the fifties.
But you could have played with that idea some more...
Maybe the fifties post war era could still have had some improvements...
After all, the new fridges and open automobiles and drive-in cinemas didn't last forever.

I dont think you are leading by example .. you actually agreed with it ... so this is your opinion of man ? then this thread is biased and cannot achieve its goals in equality .. diacotical if you ask me ..

if i correct a skewed view to promote equality then that fits the true purpose of the thread , no ?
its got nothing to do with me being male ...

N
N

I honestly thought those were valid observations,
especially about beautiful women exerting power over men.
But that is just at the instinctive level, it does not mean it trumps all male decisions.
Nor do a few examples of female psycho leaders throughout history prove that women are
all war mongerers.

I didn't understand that Carmody's post could make you or anyone antagonistic...
he himself said it was his teenage self that had come to that conclusion.
It's only an opinion, and deserves to be respected.

Carmody
1st August 2013, 17:50
I will admit I'm guilty of casting a word or two toward the topic of boxing as a hobby.

But it does get down to the base idea of projection of violence vs projection of and in the self of non-violence.

It is a question for each of us. Even as I said those things, I also said that I do not claim innocence.

As to my comment of patriarchal systems being a serous problem, this is a thing that has developed over time, not all at once. Obviously.

What it has become, not what may have be been originally intended by some involved. Obviously.

Have women (as they exist now) at the controls for a few thousand years, and I'm as sure as i can be that the problems will be different ---but no less extreme.

Essentially, it is obvious to anyone who is observing that this patriarchal system as it exists now is a failed system.

And for the good of humanity, it has to go.

Sierra
1st August 2013, 19:22
Ok, here is one of the Baha'i teachings on equality, and I happen to believe it.
Consider this is coming out of 19 th century Persia.

Only when an equal number of women sits in the world's parliaments will large scale wars cease...
as no woman will vote for war, since she gave birth and raised her sons.
Something to that effect.

I can get behind that. :)

I've heard that the system of representation as designed for the US constitution, is actually based on one of the American Indian systems... With one glaring exception. The Indian system included a council of women, who had veto power over all actions suggested, including whether or not, to go to war.

I've also heard that after we get past the Hopi time of choice, some will live in a world where there is no war. There will still be be acts of individual violence apparently, but it will not be institutionalized. This will free up the world's economies for healing and repair.

Flash
1st August 2013, 19:35
Ok, here is one of the Baha'i teachings on equality, and I happen to believe it.
Consider this is coming out of 19 th century Persia.

Only when an equal number of women sits in the world's parliaments will large scale wars cease...
as no woman will vote for war, since she gave birth and raised her sons.
Something to that effect.

I can get behind that. :)

I've heard that the system of representation as designed for the US constitution, is actually based on one of the American Indian systems... With one glaring exception. The Indian system included a council of women, who had veto power over all actions suggested, including whether or not, to go to war.

Absolutely right. However, even if there were councils of women (who were the final decision makers, veto like, in most American and Central Asia societies), it did not stop wars from happenings or Ghensis Khan from taking over half the planet (he must have been ferocious). So, although part of the "dis balance" is the absence of women in power,within the women's way (not copied on men ways), the real problem lays elsewhere, and it is this elsewhere that has to be solved.

Genetic psychopathic traits are most probably at falt, in both sexes, but more obviously outwardly present in males, because of a male dominated society. The skewed gene pool towards psychopathy that is propagating itself, which makes some humans more prone to war and war like thinking, ego based on the primitive parts of ourselves which they cannot control, which are out of balancing counteracting brain/energetic components. imo

In fact, what has to be listened to is the more empathetic sides of human beings, which want to grow, live and act withing a collaborative system, seeing it as more potentially valuable for the success of the specie.

Women could help such a system to come in existence because of their needs while child rearing, making them understand this better.

However, there is as many women as there is men that are fundamentally psychopaths, this has to be kept in mind.

Higher discussions/potentials in a more spiritual level are most certainly at play as well but I will let the extraordinary team of human beings present on this thread talk about it.

Sierra
1st August 2013, 19:42
Have women (as they exist now) at the controls for a few thousand years, and I'm as sure as i can be that the problems will be different ---but no less extreme.

I think the history we have of the ancient matriarchal cultures is gone, with the exception of the Amazons, and apparently they were nasty, violent, demeaning, degrading bitches, angry that the world was turning patriarchal. I would not want to go there either.

If there is imbalance, no matter who owns the resulting power of dominance, it will sucketh mightily.

Sierra
1st August 2013, 19:52
Flash, there is the big can of worms we don't know what to do with. Nothing works with psychopaths, except to confine/sterilize/destroy. I think that their own choices will eliminate them eventually, they will go on to rebirth on a planet designed to teach psychopaths, the error of their ways.

Flash
1st August 2013, 20:03
Flash, there is the big can of worms we don't know what to do with. Nothing works with psychopaths, except to confine/sterilize/destroy. I think that their own choices will eliminate them eventually, they will go on to rebirth on a planet designed to teach psychopaths, the error of their ways.

yes, big can of worms. The problem is that before they go on another planet, they will destroy the one we are on. This has to be seen. The second problem is that the others non psychopaths by not seeing it do accept this state of affairs, an unacceptable state by all means.


As long as you refuse to see that psychopathy exist and nothing can be done about it to correct it, you will have a crowd accepting this difficult situation, namely being lead by psychopaths to a definite cliff, in all its broadest sense (physical, spiritual, etc).

I was the first guilty one, for years, I could not even imagine that some people were fundamentally not good (I had bought "the soul is good, we are all the same, all one", yes, if we decide so, but a part of humanity has decided against). I paid dearly for this ignorance personally, with my health, my own progress hampered, etc. As a whole society and civiliization, we are paying of this ignorance of lack of will to see.

We have to see the situation, accept what it is and decide on what we truly want, then will it (instead of having psychopath will for us). We want love, will it. We want sharing, will it. With all our might. Then act.

AutumnW
1st August 2013, 22:05
I don't think either gender has a monopoly on acting in ways that are politically or inter-personally destructive. Women are not that much more kind and loving than men. That is a conceit backed up by some force, (maybe psychopathic elite forces--who knows?) who appear hell bent on atomizing us, dividing us, having us point fingers at each other instead of THEM!

Women appear to be kinder, because that is a big part of our social facade. But are woman really less aggressive within their own spheres of activity? I don't know and don't know how it could be measured. The old, 'My character weaknesses can all be traced back to the patriarchy,' passes the buck. As far as our actions, attitudes and how we relate to others, we are masters of our destiny. There is zero excuse, at this juncture, for women to hold men responsible for their own failings. If anything, society working through corporations, have adopted a feminine veneer, a social sharing and caring facade; a politically correct appearance that belies the blatant aggression beneath it's surface. Bare in mind, I am a hetero woman.

I don't personally feel that disagreeing with a point somebody makes on a forum is a sign of over-arching competitiveness. As long as a poster is polite, disagrees in a way that doesn't undermine anothers experience, takes into account their dignity as a human being, where is the harm?

ulli
2nd August 2013, 00:02
I don't think either gender has a monopoly on acting in ways that are politically or inter-personally destructive. Women are not that much more kind and loving than men. That is a conceit backed up by some force, (maybe psychopathic elite forces--who knows?) who appear hell bent on atomizing us, dividing us, having us point fingers at each other instead of THEM!

Women appear to be kinder, because that is a big part of our social facade. But are woman really less aggressive within their own spheres of activity? I don't know and don't know how it could be measured. The old, 'My character weaknesses can all be traced back to the patriarchy,' passes the buck. As far as our actions, attitudes and how we relate to others, we are masters of our destiny. There is zero excuse, at this juncture, for women to hold men responsible for their own failings. If anything, society working through corporations, have adopted a feminine veneer, a social sharing and caring facade; a politically correct appearance that belies the blatant aggression beneath it's surface. Bare in mind, I am a hetero woman.

I don't personally feel that disagreeing with a point somebody makes on a forum is a sign of over-arching competitiveness. As long as a poster is polite, disagrees in a way that doesn't undermine anothers experience, takes into account their dignity as a human being, where is the harm?

No harm at all, except this particular thread was not about expressing disagreements.
But I learnt something that people do, and I myself have also done it in the past.
They ignore the OP, and just respond to the latest post, and arguments are the result.

I realize it was perhaps a bit silly, and maybe I ought to close the thread altogether now,
but when several men started to open up with anecdotes about their lives it was exactly what I had hoped for.
It's in such a campfire atmosphere that special bonding takes place.

Here is what I wrote in the OP:

"I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further,
modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know,
don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen."

I should have stopped there instead of going into musings about the differences between men and women in general.
That was my mistake, and I regret it.
Lesson learnt.

turiya
2nd August 2013, 02:11
Yes, getting back to the OP...



Here is what I wrote in the OP:

"I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further,
modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know,
don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen."

I should have stopped there instead of going into musings about the differences between men and women in general.
That was my mistake, and I regret it.
Lesson learnt.

But the central reasoning behind why 'many enlightened men... don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men who also got IT...' is basic to the understanding as to why this phenomenon does not take place... after all, it is the plain simple difference(s) that exists between male & feminine energy types...

Going into it a bit further... differences between male & feminine energies, this underlies the different roads that are taken toward the attainment of ‘higher’ states of awareness.

To reiterate, man is dependent on woman when it comes to the creation of new life. In the birthing of a child, man can only do this through the woman. But as far as in the dimension in which a "spiritual birth" is concerned, it is reversed – woman is dependent upon the man in order to move higher in consciousness. Just as there are physical differences, and the same is with regards to the world of spirituality. Man can attain enlightenment more directly, whereas woman, generally speaking, has to go through man (i.e. relationship(s)) to attain 'heightened' states of awareness. Woman, for the most part, has to take this indirect approach.

It is not a question of equality or inequality, it is simply because the male & female are different. And due to this difference lay the basic reason why there are fundamentally two different roads, or path-ways, which can lead one to enlightenment. And these two are: 1) the path of meditation; and 2) the path of love. In Yoga terms these two are known as Gyana Yoga & Bhakti Yoga – the paths of knowledge & devotion.

Meditation can be done alone. Love, on the other hand, needs another physical human being. Man has been known to achieve through meditation – this is what is meant by attaining ‘directly’. It is much easier for man to be alone. Deep down he is more connected to this state of aloneness. It comes more natural to a man. For a woman to be alone is more difficult. Instead, she has a deep urge to love, and to be loved. And for this, another individual is needed.

The woman reaches the meditative state through love. Man’s male energy reaches through meditation. It is possible for the woman to reach the meditative state only after moving through love; whereas the man reaches love, a flowering of compassion, through the meditative experience in absolute aloneness.

This emphasis in literature on 'being alone' has come because of so many men becoming previously enlightened in the past. Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu, Mohammed & many others – all of them went into the solitude of their aloneness. Fewer enlightened woman have their place marked with prominence.

For a man, the deep desire is for freedom – freedom from… freedom from rules, freedom from society, freedom from others… freedom from one’s own mind & its conditioning – sitting alone in meditation is enough to set the stage for what can come next.

For a woman, the deep desire is for love. In order to experience love, woman will need another physical human being, a community of others, but that other human being will always become less & less satisfying, less & less fulfilling, because the absolute union of the two is not possible. The physical partner can only fulfill the outer woman, but cannot be brought to the center of her being. After several experiences falling short, encountering unsatisfactory physical partners – with the resultant frustration – will woman come to the point of feeling comfortable with a non physical divine partner, which can then lead to the outer woman meeting her inner man in her state of aloneness.

Man, on the other hand, can do this without this need to be with others. He is capable of reaching the inner heights of his being in his aloneness. Upon reaching the higher levels of consciousness, the flowering of compassion takes place. He then returns to the world to share the treasure with others. Such a one has been referred to as a bodhisatva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva).


turiya :cool:

Carmody
2nd August 2013, 03:49
Flash, there is the big can of worms we don't know what to do with. Nothing works with psychopaths, except to confine/sterilize/destroy. I think that their own choices will eliminate them eventually, they will go on to rebirth on a planet designed to teach psychopaths, the error of their ways.

Nice organisms finish first: Why cooperators always win in the long run

Leading physicists last year turned game theory on its head by giving selfish players a sure bet to beat cooperative players. Now two evolutionary biologists at Michigan State University offer new evidence that the selfish will die out in the long run.

"We found evolution will punish you if you're selfish and mean," said lead author Christoph Adami, MSU professor of microbiology and molecular genetics. "For a short time and against a specific set of opponents, some selfish organisms may come out ahead. But selfishness isn't evolutionarily sustainable."

The paper "Evolutionary instability of Zero Determinant strategies demonstrates that winning isn't everything," is co-authored by Arend Hintze, molecular and microbiology research associate, and published in the Aug. 1, 2013 issue of Nature Communications.

Game theory is used in biology, economics, political science and other disciplines. Much of the last 30 years of research has focused on how cooperation came to be, since it's found in many forms of life, from single-cell organisms to people.

Researchers use the prisoner's dilemma game as a model to study cooperation. In it, two people have committed a crime and are arrested. Police offer each person a deal: snitch on your friend and go free while the friend spends six months in jail. If both prisoners snitch, they both get three months in jail. If they both stay silent, they both get one month in jail for a lesser offense. If the two prisoners get a chance to talk to each other, they can establish trust and are usually more likely to cooperate because then both of them only spend one month in jail. But if they're not allowed to communicate, the best strategy is to snitch because it guarantees the snitcher doesn't get the longer jail term.

The game allows scientists to study a basic question faced by individuals competing for limited resources: do I act selfishly or do I cooperate? Cooperating would do the most good for the most individuals, but it might be tempting to be selfish and freeload, letting others do the work and take the risks.

In May 2012, two leading physicists published a paper showing their newly discovered strategy – called zero-determinant—gave selfish players a guaranteed way to beat cooperative players.

"The paper caused quite a stir," said Adami. "The main result appeared to be completely new, despite 30 years of intense research in this area."

Adami and Hintze had their doubts about whether following a zero determinant strategy (ZD) would essentially eliminate cooperation and create a world full of selfish beings. So they used high-powered computing to run hundreds of thousands of games and found ZD strategies can never be the product of evolution. While ZD strategies offer advantages when they're used against non-ZD opponents, they don't work well against other ZD opponents.

"In an evolutionary setting, with populations of strategies, you need extra information to distinguish each other," Adami explained.

So ZD strategies only worked if players knew who their opponents were and adapted their strategies accordingly. A ZD player would play one way against another ZD player and a different way against a cooperative player.

"The only way ZD strategists could survive would be if they could recognize their opponents," Hintze added. "And even if ZD strategists kept winning so that only ZD strategists were left, in the long run they would have to evolve away from being ZD and become more cooperative. So they wouldn't be ZD strategists anymore."

Both Adami and Hintze are members of the BEACON Center for the Study of Evolution in Action, a National Science Foundation Center that brings together biologists, computer scientists, engineers and researchers from other disciplines to study evolution as it happens.

The research also makes that case that communication and information are necessary for cooperation to take place.

"Standard game theory doesn't take communication into account because it's so complicated to do the math for the expected payoffs," Adami explained. "But just because the math doesn't exist and the general formula may never be solved, it doesn't mean we can't explore the idea using agent-based modeling. Communication is critical for cooperation; we think communication is the reason cooperation occurs. It's generally believed that there are five independent mechanisms that foster cooperation. But these mechanisms are really just ways to ensure that cooperators play mostly with other cooperators and avoid all others. Communication is a universal way to achieve that. We plan to test the idea directly in yeast cells."

http://phys.org/news/2013-08-evolution-youre-selfish.html

Thus endeth the lesson.

Even science, scientific protocol, and experimentation ---agrees.

Psychopaths ~MUST~ end.

Psychopaths are shown to be a dead end, by science. That the ruling powers of the world are now in a small pool and no longer in a open ended system with no boundaries, and in that scenario.... the world must rise and end this extant situaiton. However it may be done, it must be done.

This...we communicate...now.

Interesting how the released study reflects this in the same time/moment/flow, is it not?

Rahkyt
2nd August 2013, 03:57
I dunno, folks still seem to think we're in mortal danger from the PTB. The Patriarchy.

It has been my understanding that everything works in waves. Cycles. Spirals.

That the same basic patterns repeat over long galactic and universal cycles. Civilizations rise, civilizations fall. The male energy rises and the female falls, the the female energy rises and the male falls.

Is this not correct?

Each iteration of the cycle moves the entire dance up a level. The same cycles repeat, but the energetic potentiality of the cycles is higher, more refined, creating a spiraling pattern.

So now the male energy is cycling downward and the female is cycling up. The patriarchy is still strong, it is a waveform, an oscillation, the peak was reached and is passed, and it will continue to flow down the slope as the feminine energy rises.

I like to tell stories in this thread so I'm going to tell another story.

I used to be a part of a group of ETs, they called themselves Incarnates. We would meet on Skype every day and they would battle Greys and Reptilians and all of the other alien races that have threatened Terra. The group had more men in it than women, but the women were very strong and held their own. As an energy worker, my job was to observe the energies and to help the individuals involved where possible. During the course of a year's time, I helped them to understand who they were and what their issues were, as well as working to reveal the secrets of their personal fields and the ramifications of their first incarnations on the planet.

Of the males involved, a couple were spiritually evolved. One in particular, I called brother. But there came a point when I grew suspicious. They could not handle the pressure. Their lives were spiraling downward, their health compromised, their mental states fragile. Even those who considered themselves evolved were subjected to intense emotional storms that resulted in fraying, fracturing, backbiting, gossiping and the inevitable dissension, exodus and ejection of the offending members, including me.

The brotherhood and sisterhood of "evolved" souls is fragile. Since the ejection, people who called themselves friends, who stated their brotherly and sisterly love, have been silent. The group is small and insular, they consider themselves saviors of the world. And yet, within the group, their viewpoints are limited by their own knowledge, their understanding of galactic and universal law seemingly just as limited. the burdens of their incarnations on this planet have left them with genetic and emotional blockages that they barely understand and their answer to everything was to seek something external, some sort of insert, attachment, enemy, planet, fleet, ultra-dimensional baddie, AI, Galactic Force, god or source to blame.

This seems to be endemic to the New Age movement. So much talk of love, but little action. So much talk of higher dimensional selves, god aspects, angels, yet the lower, material and Terran self dominates. So much talk of friendship undying, but little follow-through. So much talk of brotherhood and sisterhood, but, once a little paranoia sets in, all that talk is revealed as just that and relationships that lasted months and years evaporate in moments.

For those still consumed by their emotional trials and tribulations, such things can be devastating. Lower chakra responses automatic. And so the cycle continues, until a higher choice is made. The revelation of true spiritual growth is always in action, stated intent expressed by words but real intent expressed by action. This is the human condition, even among the evolved, men and women, still burdened by the weight they choose to carry around, lying to themselves about their state of BEing, not realizing that the only ones that believe the lies are themselves.

Carmody
2nd August 2013, 04:03
I agree. To this one, the communication must reach all (or as many as possible), so I keep changing the way I twist in the given wind.

Rahkyt
2nd August 2013, 04:10
Change is the only constant, and for a Clear, being able to transcend the patterning of society and birth is the expression of higher potentiality harnessed in the Now moment for whatever intentions, words or actions are required.

While the shift is inevitable, the higher heights of patriarchial hierarchy being inhabited by psychopathic minds, potentially young souls or the soulless, the communicative imperative becomes need-based as opposed to empathy-based, one heartless, the other heart-filled. As this rose to a certain height and is now falling in tune with the times, the devolution of psychopathy may be foreordained. Twisting in the wind as an expression of the prevailing atmospheric currents is only the natural state of BEing.

turiya
2nd August 2013, 22:05
http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/turiya_file/CANT_STEP_INTO_RIVER_TWICE_590_X_184.png



Flash, there is the big can of worms we don't know what to do with. Nothing works with psychopaths, except to confine/sterilize/destroy. I think that their own choices will eliminate them eventually, they will go on to rebirth on a planet designed to teach psychopaths, the error of their ways.

yes, big can of worms. The problem is that before they go on another planet, they will destroy the one we are on. This has to be seen. The second problem is that the others non psychopaths by not seeing it do accept this state of affairs, an unacceptable state by all means.

As long as you refuse to see that psychopathy exist and nothing can be done about it to correct it, you will have a crowd accepting this difficult situation, namely being lead by psychopaths to a definite cliff, in all its broadest sense (physical, spiritual, etc).

I was the first guilty one, for years, I could not even imagine that some people were fundamentally not good (I had bought "the soul is good, we are all the same, all one", yes, if we decide so, but a part of humanity has decided against). I paid dearly for this ignorance personally, with my health, my own progress hampered, etc. As a whole society and civiliization, we are paying of this ignorance of lack of will to see.

We have to see the situation, accept what it is and decide on what we truly want, then will it (instead of having psychopath will for us). We want love, will it. We want sharing, will it. With all our might. Then act.

Aside from perhaps those societies considered “backward”, “uneducated” & less “uncivilized”, all societies that exist on this planet are overly moralistic, emotionally suppressive to its members. In order to maintain sustainability, to secure a future existence of its social structure, every society teaches, educates, trains & conditions, its membership to control themselves, to discipline themselves so that social order will be maintained. This comes at a cost of the individuals within the society who will restrict themselves from living & expressing themselves naturally. Life, then takes on a unnatural quality, an emotionally repressive & suppressive quality - in a word - Masochism. Societies teach its members to be good masochists. As a result human health, physical & mental, comes as the price that is to be paid so the society can appear healthy.

In such a venue, the seed for human psychopathy is cultivated.


I used to be a part of a group of ETs, they called themselves Incarnates. We would meet on Skype every day and they would battle Greys and Reptilians and all of the other alien races that have threatened Terra....

...the burdens of their incarnations on this planet have left them with genetic and emotional blockages that they barely understand and their answer to everything was to seek something external, some sort of insert, attachment, enemy, planet, fleet, ultra-dimensional baddie, AI, Galactic Force, god or source to blame.

This seems to be endemic to the New Age movement. So much talk of love, but little action. So much talk of higher dimensional selves, god aspects, angels, yet the lower, material and Terran self dominates. So much talk of friendship undying, but little follow-through. So much talk of brotherhood and sisterhood, but, once a little paranoia sets in, all that talk is revealed as just that and relationships that lasted months and years evaporate in moments.

For those still consumed by their emotional trials and tribulations, such things can be devastating. Lower chakra responses automatic. And so the cycle continues, until a higher choice is made.

Sounds like the rest of the human race can be included in this… (i.e. are we not all ETs?)

The notion comes to mind… that this is a common thing amongst most that are here. As it appears to me, this is consequential, & arises out of one’s own agreement of accepting the experience of being immersed into this lower frequency physical dichotomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy), where the illusion of divisions becomes quite pronounced.

It is said that life is in constant flux. Existence in continual change, constantly balancing negative with positive.

An individual soul – as a holographic dewdrop of the Creator Oceanic Soul - carries within itself both ends of that spectrum of supposed opposites. In other words, both potentials of good & evil are carried within the human condition. Individuals, in their unconscious state of forgetfulness, tend to only want to identify with that which lies on the ‘good’ end of that ‘good/evil’ spectrum.

Then, what happens to the ‘bad’ part, the so-called dark, negative, forces?

I would submit that it is unwanted & then denied. An attempt is made then to have it be pushed down into the unconscious/subconscious part of one’s being. An attempt is made to bury it there, as if it never existed, or will never exist in future... to be forgotten about. But is one only fooling oneself? A self-deception of sorts?

Because energy is not destroyed. It is meant to move, that energy will find a way to express itself. It will not remain stagnated. If it is not allowed a natural expression, it will find an unnatural form to express itself. Because that denied part of oneself, the suppressed part – the ‘bad’ part – will find its way. If not expressed consciously, it will find a way to be expressed unconsciously. This not only pertain to individuals, but also to the human collective as well. As had been said previously - all societies condition its members to suppress & repress socially unacceptable modes of emotional expression.

Just suppose, then, that certain individuals are born specifically “destined” to balance out the books, so to speak, of the human collective. And, as Existence seeks to balance itself energetically, it may call on certain members to be, as it were, “predestined”, “preordained" or "predetermined" to fulfill those roles that will provide the expression of that negatively suppressed energy which has been laying within the human collective unconscious building-up a kind of 'pressure' or 'momentum'.

In other words, the so-called ‘moralists’ of the world are really responsible for the playing out of so much repressed “negativity” & “evil”. The saints create the sinners. And everyone that is a playing a masochist is playing part in this. And, some may need to have it placed squarely on their nose... being a masochist means that you really do not love yourself!

And the bigger part of this is: If you do not love yourself, how can you love anybody else? Because if you miss the first step, all steps that follow will also be missed.

A better world would manifest if humanity (as a collective whole) didn’t reject parts of itself, but rather created infrastructure & social systems that were oriented toward the health & well-being of its individual members, rather than seeking to create healthy societies that are built at the cost of the physical & mental well-being of its members.

The human condition needs to be excepted in its totality, by each of its members, rather than selecting certain parts – the good parts – and the denial other so-called 'bad' parts of itself. The lack of total acceptance is why there are psychopaths that roam the planet. Bring about a system to allow human beings to be totally themselves & psychopaths will dissolve away like they have never existed.

MasochisM behavior will breed psychopathic behavior. Is that so difficult to understand?


turiya :cool:

Flash
2nd August 2013, 23:01
I dunno, folks still seem to think we're in mortal danger from the PTB. The Patriarchy.

It has been my understanding that everything works in waves. Cycles. Spirals.

That the same basic patterns repeat over long galactic and universal cycles. Civilizations rise, civilizations fall. The male energy rises and the female falls, the the female energy rises and the male falls.

Is this not correct?

Each iteration of the cycle moves the entire dance up a level. The same cycles repeat, but the energetic potentiality of the cycles is higher, more refined, creating a spiraling pattern.

So now the male energy is cycling downward and the female is cycling up. The patriarchy is still strong, it is a waveform, an oscillation, the peak was reached and is passed, and it will continue to flow down the slope as the feminine energy rises.

I like to tell stories in this thread so I'm going to tell another story.

I used to be a part of a group of ETs, they called themselves Incarnates. We would meet on Skype every day and they would battle Greys and Reptilians and all of the other alien races that have threatened Terra. The group had more men in it than women, but the women were very strong and held their own. As an energy worker, my job was to observe the energies and to help the individuals involved where possible. During the course of a year's time, I helped them to understand who they were and what their issues were, as well as working to reveal the secrets of their personal fields and the ramifications of their first incarnations on the planet.

Of the males involved, a couple were spiritually evolved. One in particular, I called brother. But there came a point when I grew suspicious. They could not handle the pressure. Their lives were spiraling downward, their health compromised, their mental states fragile. Even those who considered themselves evolved were subjected to intense emotional storms that resulted in fraying, fracturing, backbiting, gossiping and the inevitable dissension, exodus and ejection of the offending members, including me.

The brotherhood and sisterhood of "evolved" souls is fragile. Since the ejection, people who called themselves friends, who stated their brotherly and sisterly love, have been silent. The group is small and insular, they consider themselves saviors of the world. And yet, within the group, their viewpoints are limited by their own knowledge, their understanding of galactic and universal law seemingly just as limited. the burdens of their incarnations on this planet have left them with genetic and emotional blockages that they barely understand and their answer to everything was to seek something external, some sort of insert, attachment, enemy, planet, fleet, ultra-dimensional baddie, AI, Galactic Force, god or source to blame.

This seems to be endemic to the New Age movement. So much talk of love, but little action. So much talk of higher dimensional selves, god aspects, angels, yet the lower, material and Terran self dominates. So much talk of friendship undying, but little follow-through. So much talk of brotherhood and sisterhood, but, once a little paranoia sets in, all that talk is revealed as just that and relationships that lasted months and years evaporate in moments.

For those still consumed by their emotional trials and tribulations, such things can be devastating. Lower chakra responses automatic. And so the cycle continues, until a higher choice is made. The revelation of true spiritual growth is always in action, stated intent expressed by words but real intent expressed by action. This is the human condition, even among the evolved, men and women, still burdened by the weight they choose to carry around, lying to themselves about their state of BEing, not realizing that the only ones that believe the lies are themselves.

A similar study is being done in McGill with similar results, but this time looking at history and the average decision maker (the ones who do not decide). In the long run, the selfish were loosing too. I wil try to find it, I saw it in University Television.

Sammy
3rd August 2013, 03:04
mQZmCJUSC6g

I was so upset when I found out someone else inspired it!

mosquito
3rd August 2013, 03:08
Have just read through the last 5 pages. Some wonderful posts, especially ....

TURIYA - Boy have you hit the nail on the head - women are by far the more powerful of the sexes, they just don't realise it and have been conned by the "feminist" movement (a misnomer if ever there was one) into competing with men. But I appreciate that this isn't the direction Uli wants to take with the thread.

Spiritually aware men reaching out to one another. Turiya has again got it spot on. It just isn't in the male nature, or necessary to our way of being. When I reach out emotionally, I do it to women. And get rejected by their mistrust and dislike of men. That was in the UK, and is one of many reasons why I left. South America was much more welcoming to a man with a heart, but Chinese women are, on the whole, just as condescending toward men as the Brits, but that's more to do with their culture and their numerical inferiority. When I reach out to men, it normally involves beer !! ;)

I'm in the weird and unsettling position of being quite happy alone, more or less self-contained, but very very very much in need of love and affection, which is the reason I'm in a relationship. And it's not just about receiving love, I have a deep need to give love. Typically for me though, it's an online relationship, and is causing me a lot of anguish, I need it to be physical and here. I know that at the root of this is a lack of self-esteem, but try as I might, I can't find where that comes from. On most levels, I'm confident to the point of cockiness, so the idea of me lacking self-esteem is quite bizarre. Maybe that's why I can't make any headway with it.

I joined Avalon in 2011 in the hope that it would be a way to make connections with evolved people. Ha ha. So far, I've made skype contact with just 1 person, and there maybe another on the horizon.

But let me throw the ball back into the women's court: You want to see us reach out, unite and heal the world, so why don't the women lead the way ? If you doubt women's superiority, go and read "Lysistrata" by Aristophones, and see what can be accomplished by women using their true power and acting in concert. Maybe it's time to stop wearing your "support our troops" t-shirts, stop paying tax, stop cooperating with the system, and above all .. STOP giving your PTB/corporate/military menfolk their sexual nourishment !

Flash
3rd August 2013, 03:26
Mariposafe: And it's not just about receiving love, I have a deep need to give love.

This is very true, it is certainly as much about giving love, wanting to be with others to give love, and receive.

I was reading your post thinking "this is just what women want isn't it?" Isn't it? So why do we have so much problems with intimacy, men AND women?

Then the thought came to me (I am joking here): Have you tried Canada? LOL


Joking apart, I am truly amazed at the quality of posts here and the quality of men writing them.

Turiya, you nail it quite often. Rakhyt, very impressive and sensible/sensitive expériences, Carmody, as always, depth of understanding, Jimini, esoteric talks brought to our understanding, Auracaria - well you and skippy are extraordinary simply because your are so good at French :p, Finefeather and his very high sensitivity, Fred and all others, as a woman, I thank you all.

You are all reconciling me with the high quality of some human beings and of mostly of some men.

Life being what it is, we do not see this often and I think women are on average as disappointed of their interactions with men as men are, when looking deep Inside.

Reconciliation with the other part of our humanity is foremost important, me think.

Thanks, beautiful men here.

mosquito
3rd August 2013, 10:54
I was reading your post thinking "this is just what women want isn't it?" Isn't it? So why do we have so much problems with intimacy, men AND women?



Exactly. This was always one of the things that totally bemused me living in the UK, women saying they want one thing, but then totally rejecting it or ignoring it when it's offered !! And before I'm taken out of context, I know we all do that to some extent.

Thank you Flash for seeing my point and also for expressing, so clearly, a conundrum I can't get my head round - WHY do we have problems with intimacy ? Do cats have "issues" about being stroked/pampered ???

BTW - Canada is a country I love, but I'm not sure about the climate (though I know that it's not such an issue, as homes and offices are built to withstand the cold), and definitely not keen on the neighbours !! I spent a week in Montreal in 1991 and loved it, I'm sure I'd make a good Quebecois, I just need to see them assert their independence a bit better !

greybeard
3rd August 2013, 11:12
If enlightenment should happen there is no person left to have vanity.
smiling--

Chris

jiminii
3rd August 2013, 11:44
Have just read through the last 5 pages. Some wonderful posts, especially ....

TURIYA - Boy have you hit the nail on the head - women are by far the more powerful of the sexes, they just don't realise it and have been conned by the "feminist" movement (a misnomer if ever there was one) into competing with men. But I appreciate that this isn't the direction Uli wants to take with the thread.

Spiritually aware men reaching out to one another. Turiya has again got it spot on. It just isn't in the male nature, or necessary to our way of being. When I reach out emotionally, I do it to women. And get rejected by their mistrust and dislike of men. That was in the UK, and is one of many reasons why I left. South America was much more welcoming to a man with a heart, but Chinese women are, on the whole, just as condescending toward men as the Brits, but that's more to do with their culture and their numerical inferiority. When I reach out to men, it normally involves beer !! ;)

I'm in the weird and unsettling position of being quite happy alone, more or less self-contained, but very very very much in need of love and affection, which is the reason I'm in a relationship. And it's not just about receiving love, I have a deep need to give love. Typically for me though, it's an online relationship, and is causing me a lot of anguish, I need it to be physical and here. I know that at the root of this is a lack of self-esteem, but try as I might, I can't find where that comes from. On most levels, I'm confident to the point of cockiness, so the idea of me lacking self-esteem is quite bizarre. Maybe that's why I can't make any headway with it.

I joined Avalon in 2011 in the hope that it would be a way to make connections with evolved people. Ha ha. So far, I've made skype contact with just 1 person, and there maybe another on the horizon.

But let me throw the ball back into the women's court: You want to see us reach out, unite and heal the world, so why don't the women lead the way ? If you doubt women's superiority, go and read "Lysistrata" by Aristophones, and see what can be accomplished by women using their true power and acting in concert. Maybe it's time to stop wearing your "support our troops" t-shirts, stop paying tax, stop cooperating with the system, and above all .. STOP giving your PTB/corporate/military menfolk their sexual nourishment !

in my case ... I learned that if I restrain myself from doing the sex act ,... I can make fantastic relationships with women ... and true friendship .. that last forever ... I haven't been able to do it with women I've gone to bed with .... really KNOW .. that

the reason why the boy loves the girls is because they are a mystery
and the reason why the girls loves the boys is because they are mystery ..

but after you have sex ... the mystery is gone .... just gone ... the impulse ... the thing that was holding it together is GONE!!!!

So I found that if I DON'T have sex with them .. the mystery stays ALIVE ... and the awkward sexual sensations ... are always on and off at various times ... and I can take it to friendship ... after you more or less get through all the sensations ... and can settle down to a nice happy friendship ... these kinds of friendships are SOOOOO very powerful and the love is SOOOO fantastic ... you can hold each other like puppies ...

wishing ... that maybe ... it could turn out to be some miracle .... but I find after last time I did have a girl who wanted to live with me ... I lost my freedom ... I feel obligated to come home everyday ... and try to get into this 9 to 5 ... traveling the world ... Well .. have to stop thinking it if you are going to support her ...

so somehow it broke up ... and I find ... that my independence is more valuable to me then having a relationship ... so now I have a friend .. she owns a house here where I am ... and she works in Hong Kong ... and comes home sometimes ...

I find this will be a much better connection ... because we will not lose our freedom of movement ... and we can allow the other to work other places ... I will not do the sex act ... for a long time ... until the friendship is so strong ... that it would be unbreakable ... and still

I would worry ... if we do the sex ... the mystery would be gone ... might be better to have go out on a one night stand ... but then you will have withholds on your friend .... so I found that teaching my high school students .. to complement the gap .... I don't send sexual flows to them and I raise the vibrations to friendship ... and I create a safe space for them to be with ... and I am making friends by the hundreds ...

and it is OK ... I found that getting past this Sexual aberration that was designed into this system to put people in endless compulsions .. to be a thorn in the side ...

here we are spirit beings with infinite potential ... craving cheap thrills .. and that is the most you can get with sex on this planet ... it is a cheap thrill .. off the planet and in the spirit .. with another spirit ... you can create an infinite more beautiful sensations without aberrations ... going home ... yes
that is the trick

GOING HOME
where we can be someone more sane would be back to where we came from

LRH said ... being trapped in a body on this planet can make a monkey out of an OT .. (operating thetan) .. these beings that can create suns and planets and life forms ... when put in all the electronics traps .... on a prison planet ... would operate more like a monkey than a powerful spirit ...

this is the first attempt at getting people out of prison ... we have already succeeded ... we are doing this period of time again to salvage more beings ...

but still it is a very very very .. difficult trap to get out of .... and it has so many hooks to keep you in it..

we tried it with processing ... and training .. and it got infiltrated and perverted

so now we are doing it with vibrations ... bringing higher level beings from the future down here to raise the vibrations ... this can raise the theta level up enough to change it all


with all the love I am ... or should I say affinity ... at powers of infinity

jim

Nanoo Nanoo
3rd August 2013, 13:36
the day you all realise there is no difference between men and women is the day we will have unity.

opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true

N

grannyfranny100
3rd August 2013, 14:01
Nanoo Nanoo, that's an interesting statement; what specifically do you mean? By using "you all," does that imply you are outside/above the dilemma that has been discussed with heartfelt dialogue on this thread?

Can you clarify "opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true," please? Who are/is the true?

Are you suggesting that we have surgery to become physically the same? Since males and females are neurologically different, are you suggesting we become transhumans encased in gender nonspecific machine bodies?

ulli
3rd August 2013, 15:00
I was reading your post thinking "this is just what women want isn't it?" Isn't it? So why do we have so much problems with intimacy, men AND women?



Exactly. This was always one of the things that totally bemused me living in the UK, women saying they want one thing, but then totally rejecting it or ignoring it when it's offered !! And before I'm taken out of context, I know we all do that to some extent.

Thank you Flash for seeing my point and also for expressing, so clearly, a conundrum I can't get my head round - WHY do we have problems with intimacy ? Do cats have "issues" about being stroked/pampered ???

BTW - Canada is a country I love, but I'm not sure about the climate (though I know that it's not such an issue, as homes and offices are built to withstand the cold), and definitely not keen on the neighbours !! I spent a week in Montreal in 1991 and loved it, I'm sure I'd make a good Quebecois, I just need to see them assert their independence a bit better !

You have shed lots of light here, Mariposafe...your contribution is very much appreciated.
And I sincerely hope that you can find more intimacy in your life...
emotional nurturing is something that everyone needs, but perhaps your highest self knows
that you can be more effective at this moment in earth's history as a teacher to many youth.
Great posts from Turiya, thanks.

I'm completely with Jiminii and what he has to say about friendships.
It is the most guaranteed method of keeping a relationship going for long periods.
My husband and I are somewhat best friends, although we live mentally in our separate worlds, due to our different cultures... but we nurture one another emotionally.
He is a doctor, and I sort of nurse him when he comes home at nights, when he needs to liberate himself of the immense suffering he sees in his patients every day.
Greybeard, enlightenment means different things for different people.
In my cases it started with an experience that was powerfully transforming. Maybe it was an ET download, maybe it was a satori, maybe it was the grace of God...I had no clue what it was when it happened to me.
It left me after two weeks, only the memory was there...that I had been given something of a formula by which to live my life....it looked mathematical to me at the time, like this " - 0 + " it was about harmony, balance, avoidance of extremes.
I went on a ten year long search, looking for other references to explain to me what had happened to me there...
through eastern stuff, bible studies, astrology, self knowledge, yoga, meditation techniques, star visitor studies,
right living, leaving no stone unturned, anything to get that level of consciousness to become permanent.
The experience had left me knowing IT all, a " know all", but feeling really awful, and trapped, most of the time.
This type of Idealism can then become another hurdle, as it insists that the here and now is nowhere like the ideal,
And can make one antagonistic and impatient with the levels where others are still at.
Only when I dropped the dogmatic and absolutist persona that resulted, did I find some happiness. call it acquiescence. And while living a life as pure and chaste as I could muster, I would not insist on imposing my standards on others.
Nanoo, we will chat some more when you are more relaxed.
Your accusatory tone earlier on did not serve you well, as it only contradicted your expressed desire for wholeness, in it's judgement of the conversation going on in this thread and of people who were only voicing their opinions.
Life on earth is about managing the paradox of duality and oneness, which alternate in the same way rest and activity does, or day and night.

Whenever I'm in a state of perfect oneness I get off the Internet, as the Internet is about words, and words are only ever fragments of wholeness. The Internet is about exercising the mind, and learning how to bring heart matters into the spoken realm, if such a thing is possible at all.
Grannyfanny, Flash, I thank you for being wise women.

william r sanford72
3rd August 2013, 15:43
i am 100 pounds soak and wet.5ft 3inch tall..with nothing but demons and baggage ..heavy baggage..when when me and my wife found each other..what she saw in me is still a mystery in alott ways.the greatest teachers and humans i have ever known and was blessed with having in my life were woman.my mother grandmother and becca my partner and wife.these 3 woman taught more than i can ever express or convey or even fully realize.its not always perfect.we struggle as everyone does but ...becca currentl works..i stay home..with the kids and pittle on the farm.when she burns out from the system.i go find work..she stays with kids.so forth..when she gave birth to our children.. all 3 .she refused any pain med.and no med period...on and on..i am biased toward women..we need em cause we males are kinda dumb..sorry just wanted add this to really good thread.william.

Sammy
3rd August 2013, 16:38
Nanoo Nanoo, that's an interesting statement; what specifically do you mean? By using "you all," does that imply you are outside/above the dilemma that has been discussed with heartfelt dialogue on this thread?

Can you clarify "opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true," please? Who are/is the true?

Are you suggesting that we have surgery to become physically the same? Since males and females are neurologically different, are you suggesting we become transhumans encased in gender nonspecific machine bodies?

Some folks are able to extricate themselves from this issue and it appears to me Nanoo Nanoo has done so.

I will risk expressing self opinion here as Avalon is a pretty safe place.

I believe my wife would say the same of me as I just said for Nanoo Nanoo.

I also believe my girlfriends would say the same of me.

I know my sister (three years younger) would say the same of me.

I believe every female on the planet that is honest and has come to know me would all say the same about me with one single exception...

My first wife, the lovely Lucifera herself, who hates my guts. I guess this one exception prevents me from full blown, 100% stark raving vanity, yes?

NancyV
3rd August 2013, 17:50
........ Just as there are physical differences, and the same is with regards to the world of spirituality. Man can attain enlightenment more directly, whereas woman, generally speaking, has to go through man (i.e. relationship(s)) to attain 'heightened' states of awareness. Woman, for the most part, has to take this indirect approach.

It is not a question of equality or inequality, it is simply because the male & female are different. And due to this difference lay the basic reason why there are fundamentally two different roads, or path-ways, which can lead one to enlightenment. And these two are: 1) the path of meditation; and 2) the path of love. In Yoga terms these two are known as Gyana Yoga & Bhakti Yoga – the paths of knowledge & devotion.

Meditation can be done alone. Love, on the other hand, needs another physical human being. Man has been known to achieve through meditation – this is what is meant by attaining ‘directly’. It is much easier for man to be alone. Deep down he is more connected to this state of aloneness. It comes more natural to a man. For a woman to be alone is more difficult. Instead, she has a deep urge to love, and to be loved. And for this, another individual is needed.

The woman reaches the meditative state through love. Man’s male energy reaches through meditation. It is possible for the woman to reach the meditative state only after moving through love; whereas the man reaches love, a flowering of compassion, through the meditative experience in absolute aloneness.....

turiya :cool:
This is exactly what I was talking with my husband about a few days ago as we were driving into town. Of course he agreed with me that man has a more direct connection to spirit/enlightenment. (many men would agree with that!) :p … I suppose this somewhat relates to men’s “vanity” which is in the title of this thread. Personally when I see a man who is confident in himself and his abilities I do not automatically consider it to be vanity. Their self assuredness and confidence, which can often look cocky, is often just a part of their more direct and often more honest approach to life and translates to their ability to connect more directly to spirituality/enlightenment. When you look at history you see a hell of a lot more so called holy men than holy women….because it is easier for men to connect directly to their higher self & Source/God which is ultimately their highest self.

I also agree that most women probably connect more easily through love. That is how it was for me. Even after leaving my body and travelling in other dimensions (through meditation) I still had to learn how to be totally absorbed into love to finally merge with the Source. I assumed everyone needed to do this since I had to, but I think many of us assume that when we have awesome spiritual experiences it must be the same for everyone. I stopped assuming that long ago when I realized it was just another silly projection and belief based on no evidence other than what I felt and understood when merged with Source. Maybe we each influence our Source when we merge with it? I don’t really know, I just THINK I know. Of course when I am merged with Source I automatically feel I know all and become all. It probably just doesn’t translate well into this primitive form of communication (language) we have when we’re separated. Telepathy is much better but still not the same as merging. At this point in my life I think “knowing” is highly overrated and probably unattainable. When you reach a point where you are experiencing knowingness and oneness, the concept itself has no meaning.

We women often tend to think that men SHOULD have more friends/buddies and be more like us women who love to chit chat, gossip and share our innermost feelings (ad nauseum!). Why can’t a man be more like a woman? Well, that will almost NEVER happen and trying to make them more like us is sort of like trying to teach a pig to fly; it annoys the pig and frustrates you. ;)… It reminds me of the song in MY FAIR LADY where Professor Higgins (Rex Harrison) is lamenting to Pickering about the nature of women, especially Eliza Dolittle, and why she & they (other women) can’t be more like men. We women can’t be exactly like men and men cannot be exactly like women. And why should we be more alike here on Earth where we have genders? If we were meant to be androgynous or genderless here then we would have been born that way. It would be a different creation. Some are born more androgynous or homosexual but I view that as a completely natural aberration or deviation from the norm here on this dimension and planet.

Ultimately there is no difference between any of us but in this state of separation from the Source we DO have differences. Pretending or wishing the differences weren’t there because we know we are ultimately all one doesn't help further communication and cooperation while we’re here as a man or woman. We might be better off if we attempted to understand and appreciate the many differences.

Why Can’t A Woman Be More Like a Man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY
HIGGINS
What in all of heaven could've prompted her to go,
After such a triumph as the ball?
What could've depressed her;
What could've possessed her?
I cannot understand the wretch at all.

Women are irrational, that's all there is to that!
Their heads are full of cotton, hay, and rags!
They're nothing but exasperating, irritating,
vacillating, calculating, agitating,
Maddening and infuriating hags!

[To Pickering]
Pickering, why can't a woman be more like a man?

PICKERING
I beg your pardon?

HIGGINS
Yes...
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair;
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Well, why can't a woman be like that?

Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up- well, like their father instead?

Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please;
Whenever you are with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?

PICKERING
Of course not!

HIGGINS
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?

PICKERING
Nonsense.

HIGGINS
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?

PICKERING
Never.

HIGGINS
Well, why can't a woman be like you?

One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then there's one with slight defects;
One, perhaps, whose truthfulness you doubt a bit.
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!

Why can't a woman take after a man?
Cause men are so friendly, good natured and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner, would you bellow?

PICKERING
Of course not!

HIGGINS
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

PICKERING
Nonsense.

HIGGINS
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

PICKERING
Never.

HIGGINS
Well, why can't a woman be like us?

[To Mrs. Pearce]
Mrs. Pearce, you're a woman...
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps.
Ready to help you through any mishaps.
Ready to buck you up whenever you are glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?

Why is thinking something women never do?
Why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?

If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing?
And carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?

Sammy
3rd August 2013, 19:26
WoW! Great Post NancyV - I sure have missed you.

AutumnW
3rd August 2013, 19:34
Will repost in a better spot.

AutumnW
3rd August 2013, 19:46
I don't think either gender has a monopoly on acting in ways that are politically or inter-personally destructive. Women are not that much more kind and loving than men. That is a conceit backed up by some force, (maybe psychopathic elite forces--who knows?) who appear hell bent on atomizing us, dividing us, having us point fingers at each other instead of THEM!

Women appear to be kinder, because that is a big part of our social facade. But are woman really less aggressive within their own spheres of activity? I don't know and don't know how it could be measured. The old, 'My character weaknesses can all be traced back to the patriarchy,' passes the buck. As far as our actions, attitudes and how we relate to others, we are masters of our destiny. There is zero excuse, at this juncture, for women to hold men responsible for their own failings. If anything, society working through corporations, have adopted a feminine veneer, a social sharing and caring facade; a politically correct appearance that belies the blatant aggression beneath it's surface. Bare in mind, I am a hetero woman.

I don't personally feel that disagreeing with a point somebody makes on a forum is a sign of over-arching competitiveness. As long as a poster is polite, disagrees in a way that doesn't undermine anothers experience, takes into account their dignity as a human being, where is the harm?

No harm at all, except this particular thread was not about expressing disagreements.
But I learnt something that people do, and I myself have also done it in the past.
They ignore the OP, and just respond to the latest post, and arguments are the result.

I realize it was perhaps a bit silly, and maybe I ought to close the thread altogether now,
but when several men started to open up with anecdotes about their lives it was exactly what I had hoped for.
It's in such a campfire atmosphere that special bonding takes place.

Here is what I wrote in the OP:

"I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further,
modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know,
don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen."

I should have stopped there instead of going into musings about the differences between men and women in general.
That was my mistake, and I regret it.
Lesson learnt.

Ulli, I am just as guilty of the opposite. I missed the gist of your post by focusing too much on related remarks. As far as the competitive spirit goes, I agree with you that men have more of a need to win. That can be annoying, enlightening or creative. What appears to be gender character flaw can have positive manifestations if it's channeled properly -- I hope! Competing with self to be better, do better, produce something beautiful, to help others is where the competitive spirit will likely end up. It may take several iterations of humanity, but I hope to see it in my lifetime(s);)

AutumnW
3rd August 2013, 19:49
mQZmCJUSC6g

I was so upset when I found out someone else inspired it!

Don't worry, Justoneman, a song is being written about you right now called, 'He's even vainer!' No, wait....They have to change the title to, 'He's the most vain.'!!;)

jiminii
3rd August 2013, 19:58
=NancyV;710901]
........ Just as there are physical differences, and the same is with regards to the world of spirituality. Man can attain enlightenment more directly, whereas woman, generally speaking, has to go through man (i.e. relationship(s)) to attain 'heightened' states of awareness. Woman, for the most part, has to take this indirect approach.


=turiya :cool:
This is exactly what I was talking with my husband about a few days ago as we were driving into town. Of course he agreed with me that man has a more direct connection to spirit/enlightenment. (many men would agree with that!) :p … I suppose this somewhat relates to men’s “vanity” which is in the title of this thread. Personally when I see a man who is confident in himself and his abilities I do not automatically consider it to be vanity. Their self assuredness and confidence, which can often look cocky, is often just a part of their more direct and often more honest approach to life and translates to their ability to connect more directly to spirituality/enlightenment. When you look at history you see a hell of a lot more so called holy men than holy women….because it is easier for men to connect directly to their higher self & Source/God which is ultimately their highest self.

well from the OT's I have seen in scientology???? really don't see that much difference between men and women ... I have seen some pretty powerful women and they could do pretty amazing things spiritually ... we don't use meditation ... we just remove the lies ... by taking people in the past and seeing their truth ...

when the lies are removed .. they can operate out of the body just as easy as a man ... and I have seen them command entire orgs ... as the commander ... of that org ...(organization) ... it's just the scene is setup to allow someone to take on any kind of job whether they are male or female ... and it is quite balanced .. including the communication .. is quite sane ... and safe and easy

not out here in outside world .... so given the right situation I think women are just as gifted as men .. and they don't require to connect to love to obtain those abilities

jim

Nanoo Nanoo
3rd August 2013, 21:28
Nanoo Nanoo, that's an interesting statement; what specifically do you mean? By using "you all," does that imply you are outside/above the dilemma that has been discussed with heartfelt dialogue on this thread?

Can you clarify "opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true," please? Who are/is the true?

Are you suggesting that we have surgery to become physically the same? Since males and females are neurologically different, are you suggesting we become transhumans encased in gender nonspecific machine bodies?

Yes

thats an awesome suggestion

N

ulli
3rd August 2013, 21:28
I don't think either gender has a monopoly on acting in ways that are politically or inter-personally destructive. Women are not that much more kind and loving than men. That is a conceit backed up by some force, (maybe psychopathic elite forces--who knows?) who appear hell bent on atomizing us, dividing us, having us point fingers at each other instead of THEM!

Women appear to be kinder, because that is a big part of our social facade. But are woman really less aggressive within their own spheres of activity? I don't know and don't know how it could be measured. The old, 'My character weaknesses can all be traced back to the patriarchy,' passes the buck. As far as our actions, attitudes and how we relate to others, we are masters of our destiny. There is zero excuse, at this juncture, for women to hold men responsible for their own failings. If anything, society working through corporations, have adopted a feminine veneer, a social sharing and caring facade; a politically correct appearance that belies the blatant aggression beneath it's surface. Bare in mind, I am a hetero woman.

I don't personally feel that disagreeing with a point somebody makes on a forum is a sign of over-arching competitiveness. As long as a poster is polite, disagrees in a way that doesn't undermine anothers experience, takes into account their dignity as a human being, where is the harm?

No harm at all, except this particular thread was not about expressing disagreements.
But I learnt something that people do, and I myself have also done it in the past.
They ignore the OP, and just respond to the latest post, and arguments are the result.

I realize it was perhaps a bit silly, and maybe I ought to close the thread altogether now,
but when several men started to open up with anecdotes about their lives it was exactly what I had hoped for.
It's in such a campfire atmosphere that special bonding takes place.

Here is what I wrote in the OP:

"I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further,
modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know,
don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen."

I should have stopped there instead of going into musings about the differences between men and women in general.
That was my mistake, and I regret it.
Lesson learnt.

Ulli, I am just as guilty of the opposite. I missed the gist of your post by focusing too much on related remarks. As far as the competitive spirit goes, I agree with you that men have more of a need to win. That can be annoying, enlightening or creative. What appears to be gender character flaw can have positive manifestations if it's channeled properly -- I hope! Competing with self to be better, do better, produce something beautiful, to help others is where the competitive spirit will likely end up. It may take several iterations of humanity, but I hope to see it in my lifetime(s);)

Glad you got my point. The other thing I was pointing out was specifically to do with the men here at Avalon...
here we are, in a world that most of those who consider themselves awake agree is being dragged into slavery,
with population control, high tech surveillance, military,
and all I was saying here was, please guys, listen to one another's opinions, respect them, and build on top of any ideas..
anyone might have, in a constructive way. Once there is real evidence of some covert crooked government activity...what are we going to do about it?
Even of it requires focused mind exercises....we can all cover each others backs here...just please quit the debates and competition games.
And since that was the gist of the thread, I wasn't too happy with posts which were simply debating the diferences or likenesses of men and women. The thread was never meant to be about that.
If my observation about male competitiveness was off the mark, I'll take it all back.

Nanoo Nanoo
4th August 2013, 00:05
Ulli

I want to recognise your wish here. and perhaps expand on it.


HERE IS MY WISH
In view of the fact that the whole world is on the brink of becoming an Orwellian nightmare,
with the whole collective unconscious throwing out this control freak global monstrosity that wishes to
enslave us, whom they see as the great unwashed, for all eternity, I'm curious if not some of our brighter members can't
think about letting go their own personal agenda for five minutes a day
and start building some kind of bond or buddy system here...
in order to pool and coordinate their capacities.

I would like to offer what i have tried in the past and present and what i have found what has worked in present state of flux in terms of social dogmas and energies.

In order to create a difference its important for individuals to have their head on straight first. SO the idea is to concentrate on the self in terms of spiritual and emotional development and see it as an on going lesson. This tells the self that there is always something to gain from listening to the thoughts of others. This is a good place to start.

Then it would be to have a Goal , somethis of a target and then a stratergy. This needs to be defined however with improvements welcom to the model.

Now this is where Ego and Vanity come in. If the group speak openly and are humble enough to give and take then this can grow but there always needs to be a sort of leader that takes a back seat role.. someone who is referred to when making poignant decisions, someone who is good at seeing the over view and suggesting refined stratergies. this is a talent that every leader should have however the modern leader is not using Ego to define position , no , Ego is used to benefit the group in a win win defining/decision process.

Leaders are someone who should be used to edification as neuvo riche leaders tend to let the power get to their head. Thats when the wheels fall off.. ambition needs to be under good direction here within the Ego model.

SO it would be definitive Ulli as someone who is ambitious in making adifference in first choosing a cause. Imo , if we wish to make a difference to the power structure we must first study that of which we wish to change. Then seek out a back door or weakness in the sheild of the ones we wish to change and then go about exploiting the weakness. ( this is generalisation of speech )

We can meld the best traits of our genders in making an effective group.

So what is the cause ? lets define this first shall we ?

N

Nanoo Nanoo
4th August 2013, 00:21
Nanoo Nanoo, that's an interesting statement; what specifically do you mean? By using "you all," does that imply you are outside/above the dilemma that has been discussed with heartfelt dialogue on this thread?

Can you clarify "opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true," please? Who are/is the true?

Are you suggesting that we have surgery to become physically the same? Since males and females are neurologically different, are you suggesting we become transhumans encased in gender nonspecific machine bodies?

Some folks are able to extricate themselves from this issue and it appears to me Nanoo Nanoo has done so.

I will risk expressing self opinion here as Avalon is a pretty safe place.

I believe my wife would say the same of me as I just said for Nanoo Nanoo.

I also believe my girlfriends would say the same of me.

I know my sister (three years younger) would say the same of me.

I believe every female on the planet that is honest and has come to know me would all say the same about me with one single exception...

My first wife, the lovely Lucifera herself, who hates my guts. I guess this one exception prevents me from full blown, 100% stark raving vanity, yes?



Just one wookie man , extracation from a subject matter is absolutely crutial to problem solving.

Lucifera .. what a bloody awesome name ! so why does she hate your guts ? you must have wounded her deeply.

N

Sammy
4th August 2013, 02:02
Nanoo Nanoo, that's an interesting statement; what specifically do you mean? By using "you all," does that imply you are outside/above the dilemma that has been discussed with heartfelt dialogue on this thread?

Can you clarify "opinions that sepperate us mean nothing to the true," please? Who are/is the true?

Are you suggesting that we have surgery to become physically the same? Since males and females are neurologically different, are you suggesting we become transhumans encased in gender nonspecific machine bodies?

Some folks are able to extricate themselves from this issue and it appears to me Nanoo Nanoo has done so.

I will risk expressing self opinion here as Avalon is a pretty safe place.

I believe my wife would say the same of me as I just said for Nanoo Nanoo.

I also believe my girlfriends would say the same of me.

I know my sister (three years younger) would say the same of me.

I believe every female on the planet that is honest and has come to know me would all say the same about me with one single exception...

My first wife, the lovely Lucifera herself, who hates my guts. I guess this one exception prevents me from full blown, 100% stark raving vanity, yes?



Just one wookie man , extracation from a subject matter is absolutely crutial to problem solving.

Lucifera .. what a bloody awesome name ! so why does she hate your guts ? you must have wounded her deeply.

N

Simple - she has yet to (and odds are never will) accept her responsibility for her role in the demise of our previouse "fairy tale" marriage (a great 10 years before the last two that made "The War of the Roses" look like a walk in the park).

See - she has to hate my guts.

If she stopped, she would then have to look in the mirror.

Simple as that.

My greatest wish in life, for our children as well as herself, is that she could one day take that look, admit she, as well, made mistakes, understand we were, in part, unwitting participants in a grander "space opera" and then, forgive herself. She then would be able to forgive me which would end the silly war which would free our sons from their current role of being "the battleground."

grannyfranny100
4th August 2013, 12:44
Justoneman, I am sorry you feel such resentment that the ex-wife won't admit her complicity in the demise of your marriage. It is a shame that she did not leave before procreating with you. You mention nothing of the damage done to your children and only mention the bruises you feel. By focusing your attention on that failed relationship and her unwillingness to accept blame, you avoid what you mentioned as multiple women leaving you, too. Is it always the woman's fault in all your relationships?

Then you say, "Some folks are able to extricate themselves from this issue and it appears to me Nanoo Nanoo has done so." You make disentangling (extricating) himself seem acceptable. Do you mean you approve of his lack of answers to my post except for one comment? I thought his limited response to my questions said a lot about him that was not positive and didn't warrant a response.

If we women have a lack of clarity, I suggest we should talk to a man's ex-partners before reproducing with them. Instead many women seem to buy into a poor misunderstood guy, he just needs what I have to offer tenderness and love. If we paid more attention to the history of a man's relationships by listening to past partners, we might spot a theme that is a gigantic red flag and avoid bringing children into the world who will suffer the results of an unstable, codependent relationship that we create with such partners.

We women spend too much time enabling unhealthy relationships. Salvaging men seems to be the penultimate vanity of women. Such an attitude shows when we settle for sale items only when we shop and then we brag about it as if we don't feel that we deserve a full price shopping experience. We women need to discern where our love and tenderness will be appreciated and walk away from men who lack the discernment to value our love.

IMO, you need to focus on healing yourself not casting blame on your ex partners. I wasn't going to respond and be slammed as a bitch but your repeated posts indicate your sincerity and resolve to gain insight into your own painful blind spots. I hope that my tough love response is helpful. I don't think you are a man to walk away from and you deserve my honest answer.

Ernie Nemeth
4th August 2013, 16:52
Going round and round but leaving out the intent. So let me just put it out there. I am more than willing to entertain any suggestion to skype or chat by other means, whether girl or guy, anytime.

My email is on the members list, PM me or leave a message on my board. I am open to talk on any subject and promise to be respectful and honor the other. It would be my distinct pleasure to have such a discusion. There are many here I respect greatly and even a few I look up to. But you are all very special and dear to me. I would love to get to know each of you better.

So how bout it? Any takers? Or must I initiate?

You know what, even better, I encourage everyone to contact that person you so want to get to know better but were afraid to ask...ask now!

BrandoComando
4th August 2013, 19:29
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

greybeard
4th August 2013, 19:48
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Tim says the same thing here.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904


"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole."

Nanoo Nanoo
4th August 2013, 20:56
oh wow Ulli whats happening to your thread ?

its been taken over by vain people having sexist arguments .. lol ioth men and womrn showing vanity ? or is it just men being vain and women being richeous ?

one thing is for sure there are a lot of people with un finished business. Reconciliation.

what a fizzer


N

Hey Wokkie i hear you brother ... the opposition you get is not because you did something wrong. i see your pain and your lament of what you wish for. stay strong broither the only thing they oppose from you is dis approval of your life style and that is nobodies business but your own ( mind you if you make it public you open your self ) regardless you recognise a solution to your problem but in my experience the way to effect a change is to approach your beautiful Lucifeira and look in her eye and just apologise un reservedly and drop the argument. We can never fight fire with fire ... the only thing she is fighting are her regrets covered by a defence mechanism that is not privvy to gender specification. She dosent want to lose the argument because in her heart she dosent want to lose you . i can see that from here : 0 )

just drop it and see , dont argue just apologise for your role and for the benefit of the young ones. hopedfully soon enough she will see past her own short comings when the rouse is qelled and there will be peace. Remember do not look for that recognition of being equal. Just know its there. thats good enough

hugs brother

Naniu

PS grannyfanny please dont turn my post into one of your rubbish gender biaed word twists... i see you have pain but you should take it out on the relative party not innocent by standers... , im getting a little tired of your sexist negative attitude.

thanks darling.

Naniu ( again )

Finefeather
4th August 2013, 21:24
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Tim says the same thing here.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904


"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole."
If this is the case...

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?

Just wondering now

Stay together
Ray

Flash
4th August 2013, 23:10
we stop speaking / writing, lol, this will make for an empty forum and may be a higher vibration, us realizing ourselves all at the same time. ouf, who knows...

GloriousPoetry
5th August 2013, 01:22
Thank you for posting this thread Ulli,

As a woman I know what you mean about the enlightenment and male vanity....this is one of the main reasons why I don't post much anymore. A few months ago I had contemplated starting a thread titled the divine feminine where women can share their experiences as women and men could also share but I dropped that idea when the forum became too hostile. So like many women out there I continue to keep my personal wisdom and knowledge to myself feeling at times that many people on this forum are more interested in debating and competing over ideas rather than creating a larger community of support.....

turiya
5th August 2013, 02:31
we stop speaking / writing, lol, this will make for an empty forum and may be a higher vibration, us realizing ourselves all at the same time. ouf, who knows...

Now, that would be a different kind of forum... a forum for those to come to, to login, & to just 'BE'. One thing for sure... trolls would certainly stand out & be easy to identify ... :)



"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?
Just wondering now...

Stay together
Ray

Hi Ray,

From my understanding these statements of Lao Tzu can be found
in a book called Tao Te Ching (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9187-those-who-know-do-not-speak-those-who-speak-do).


http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/turiya_file/LAO_TZU_3_590_X_298.png

I have heard the following:

"Lao Tzu lived in silence. He always avoided talking about the truth that he had attained and he always rejected the idea that he should write it down for the generations to come.

At the age of ninety he took leave of his disciples. He said good-bye to them, and said, “Now I am moving towards the hills, towards the Himalayas. I am going there to get ready to die. It is good to live with people, it is good to be in the world while you are living, but when one is getting nearer to death it is good to move into total aloneness, so that you move towards the original source in your absolute purity and aloneness, uncontaminated by the world.”

The disciples felt very, very sad, but what could they do? They followed him for a few hundred miles, then, by and by, Lao Tzu persuaded them and they went back. Then alone he was crossing the border, and the guard on the border imprisoned him. The guard was also a disciple. And the guard said. “Unless you write a book, I am not going to allow you to move beyond the border. This much you must do for humanity. Write a book. That is the debt you have to pay, otherwise I won’t allow you to cross.” So for three days Lao Tzu was imprisoned by his own disciple… so that he would be forced to write down what could not be said or written…

The first sentence of the book reads as follows:

The Tao that can be told
Is not the Absolute Tao.

This is the first thing he has to say: that whatsoever can be said cannot be true. This is the introduction for the book. It simply makes you alert: now words will be following, don’t become victim of the words. Remember the wordless. Remember that which cannot be communicated through language, through words. The Tao can be communicated, but it can only be communicated from being to being. It can be communicated when you are with a Master, just with the Master, doing nothing, not even practicing anything. Just being with the Master, it can be communicated." [And Lao Tzu was indeed a Master.]
Source (http://www.osho.com/online-library-tao-lao-tzu-communicated-45136b7b-028.aspx)


turiya :cool:

Imjusttrying
5th August 2013, 03:12
So I have been following this thread for a little while now and I think that it was a very good idea to start a thread like this so first off thank you Ulli for bringing this up! I think us males do have a very sensitive ego especially when it comes to having what we say challenged, but I don't think that is an excuse to attack somebody over their opinions which is why I joined Avalon in the first place. Me personally and I don't know if this is for everyone but I have found that the most spiritually sound information I receive comes from females. I believe that it's time for females to start spreading there opinions because they all have something very valuable to say as does everybody.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I would not mind women taking the reigns of control because it might be what is needed for the balance to finally take place. So please woman say what is on your mind because it is important and just because one person disagrees and refutes what is said doesn't mean that there aren't dozens others who whole heartedly support you either.

jiminii
5th August 2013, 04:31
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Tim says the same thing here.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904


"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole."
If this is the case...

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?

Just wondering now

Stay together
Ray

well I found it to be ... I KNOW ... but this KNOWINGNESS is so VAST ...that I DON'T KNOW ... WHAT I KNOW ...

therefore I speak ... and by speaking I find out WHAT I KNOW

hahahah . it kind of works that way

jim

araucaria
5th August 2013, 05:30
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Tim says the same thing here.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904


"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole."
If this is the case...

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?

Just wondering now

Stay together
Ray

well I found it to be ... I KNOW ... but this KNOWINGNESS is so VAST ...that I DON'T KNOW ... WHAT I KNOW ...

therefore I speak ... and by speaking I find out WHAT I KNOW

hahahah . it kind of works that way

jim

Jim, that’s a pretty modern statement you’ve made there :) In literary theory it used to be, ‘Something clearly understood can be expressed clearly’ (Boileau). Nowadays, it’s more ‘How can I know what I think until I see what I’ve said?’ And you reach the Socratic conclusion that what you see is next to nothing, or in other words, ‘There is so much that I need to learn... and so much that I need to unlearn’. You have an open, inquisitive mind that operates a Garbage-in-garbage-out policy, by which I mean that you don’t cling on to shaky or otherwise limiting knowledge.



Hence some people say little because they know little and they know it. Others open their big mouths and let everyone know how little they know, and hopefully they will discover that for themselves. Some knowalls never do. A while back I heard a scientist say that Darwin’s theory was not a theory any more, it is fact: a highly unscientific thing to say, if I may say so. Many suffer from this false knowingness that closes the mind.



The thing is that talking is usually not that much about transferring information. It covers a whole scale from one hundred percent information down to zero. When a surgeon says ’scalpel’ or a pilot talks to the air traffic controllers, they are close to a hundred percent, ideally with no emotion. But when a mother talks to her tiny baby, the information content will be close to zero as the bonding relationship takes precedence. Using ordinary words at all is hardly necessary.



Many of our problems come from our inability to adjust along this sliding scale according to circumstance. The scientific person will often misconstrue a situation by thinking it is an exchange of information, when it is more about ‘phatic communion’, by which linguists mean general socializing – what you say is less important than just chatting. ‘How are you today? – I’m doing great; I’ve just shot the mother-in-law, it’s been a good day. – Well isn’t that wonderful!’ :) Others of course go in the opposite direction and introduce emotional issues into what should be an intellectual debate. We’ve seen plenty of that on this forum too.

Edit: just found this:

This amounts to saying that theory of knowledge and theory of life seem to us inseparable. A theory of life that is not accompanied by a criticism of knowledge is obliged to accept, as they stand, the concepts which the understanding puts at its disposal: it can but enclose the facts, willing or not, in pre-existing frames which it regards as ultimate. It thus obtains a symbolism which is convenient, perhaps even necessary to positive science, but not a direct vision of its object. On the other hand, a theory of knowledge which does not replace the intellect in the general evolution of life will teach us neither how the frames of knowledge have been constructed nor how we can enlarge or go beyond them. It is necessary that these two inquiries, theory of knowledge and theory of life, should join each other, and, by a circular process, push each other on unceasingly. henri Bergson

greybeard
5th August 2013, 06:37
"That which can not be spoken of."
The finger can only point to it as it is beyond words.
However words give direction-- not everyone can be be in the silent presence of Ramana, who did not speak for sometime after the event.
What the unenlightened cannot get is that there is no individual person left after enlightenment---its beyond mind.
The individual is the illusion---only "God" is----One consciousness. (One without a second)
That's not the way it seems but Quantum is beginning to prove this through Holographic Umiverse--String Theory---Conscious Universe theories etc.

Jesus spoke, The Buddha spoke, Krishna spoke----they spoke about but speaking about is not it.
Talking about the flavour of an orange is not quite the same as tasting one, but speaking of can invoke a desire to sample the fruit.

We are both form and formless and beyond form and formless. Not male or female.
Vanity is only possible/applicable while in embodiment.

Chris

jiminii
5th August 2013, 06:46
I once asked a guru this question: "Do you like to be around other enlightened people?"

I was surprised by his answer. He basically said that an enlightened person doesn't make a distinction between an enlightened person and an unenlightened person so it's of no importance to seek out and hang around other enlightened people. He said that a truly enlightened person realizes that all beings are inherently enlightened even if they are unaware of it or trapped in the illusion of being unenlightened. This actually makes a lot of sense. It shows that this guru really did perceive all people as being equally the same and did not label people or rank people. I would be highly suspicious of any enlightened teachers who formed club of other elite enlightened people. A truly enlightened person does not call himself an enlightened person or even know if he is an enlightened person or not for that matter.

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Tim says the same thing here.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904


"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole."
If this is the case...

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?

Just wondering now

Stay together
Ray

well I found it to be ... I KNOW ... but this KNOWINGNESS is so VAST ...that I DON'T KNOW ... WHAT I KNOW ...

therefore I speak ... and by speaking I find out WHAT I KNOW

hahahah . it kind of works that way

jim

Jim, that’s a pretty modern statement you’ve made there :) In literary theory it used to be, ‘Something clearly understood can be expressed clearly’ (Boileau). Nowadays, it’s more ‘How can I know what I think until I see what I’ve said?’ And you reach the Socratic conclusion that what you see is next to nothing, or in other words, ‘There is so much that I need to learn... and so much that I need to unlearn’. You have an open, inquisitive mind that operates a Garbage-in-garbage-out policy, by which I mean that you don’t cling on to shaky or otherwise limiting knowledge.



Hence some people say little because they know little and they know it. Others open their big mouths and let everyone know how little they know, and hopefully they will discover that for themselves. Some knowalls never do. A while back I heard a scientist say that Darwin’s theory was not a theory any more, it is fact: a highly unscientific thing to say, if I may say so. Many suffer from this false knowingness that closes the mind.



The thing is that talking is usually not that much about transferring information. It covers a whole scale from one hundred percent information down to zero. When a surgeon says ’scalpel’ or a pilot talks to the air traffic controllers, they are close to a hundred percent, ideally with no emotion. But when a mother talks to her tiny baby, the information content will be close to zero as the bonding relationship takes precedence. Using ordinary words at all is hardly necessary.



Many of our problems come from our inability to adjust along this sliding scale according to circumstance. The scientific person will often misconstrue a situation by thinking it is an exchange of information, when it is more about ‘phatic communion’, by which linguists mean general socializing – what you say is less important than just chatting. ‘How are you today? – I’m doing great; I’ve just shot the mother-in-law, it’s been a good day. – Well isn’t that wonderful!’ :) Others of course go in the opposite direction and introduce emotional issues into what should be an intellectual debate. We’ve seen plenty of that on this forum too.

Edit: just found this:

This amounts to saying that theory of knowledge and theory of life seem to us inseparable. A theory of life that is not accompanied by a criticism of knowledge is obliged to accept, as they stand, the concepts which the understanding puts at its disposal: it can but enclose the facts, willing or not, in pre-existing frames which it regards as ultimate. It thus obtains a symbolism which is convenient, perhaps even necessary to positive science, but not a direct vision of its object. On the other hand, a theory of knowledge which does not replace the intellect in the general evolution of life will teach us neither how the frames of knowledge have been constructed nor how we can enlarge or go beyond them. It is necessary that these two inquiries, theory of knowledge and theory of life, should join each other, and, by a circular process, push each other on unceasingly. henri Bergson

well lao Tzu spoke didn't he?? Then he doesn't know, does he, according to what he said.

if you are connected to source, then what you say is a close to source as it can get.
That is the difference.
The point is this: words will always distort WHAT IS. and maybe this would make Lao Tzu correct.

Because there is nothing more perfect than the exact thing itself and words can only approach a proximity unless you are speaking of exact things like, "how many apples do you have?"

That would be different then answering a question like, "what does an apple taste like?"

jim

skippy
5th August 2013, 06:46
http://xaxor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Wise-Winnie-the-Pooh-quotes12.jpg

jiminii
5th August 2013, 06:55
http://xaxor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Wise-Winnie-the-Pooh-quotes12.jpg

Knowingness ??? true knowingness is KNOWING the concepts of life and how they all play into the patterns that play out all the aspects of life.

it you truly KNOW, you can speak it in any level of language, even farmers language and it can be understood and it can be demonstrated, like the concept of gravity. You can KNOW IT, and you can EXPERIENCE IT, you can prove it without words.

jim

araucaria
5th August 2013, 09:11
You can KNOW IT, and you can EXPERIENCE IT, you can prove it without words.


Yes, and there you have, as Flash suggests, a nice conversation-stopper :)

Staying with words (all we have here), the idea of 'proof' is a word-based idea, and one with an interesting etymology. It is clearer from the French words 'prouver' and 'éprouver', showing that before proving, we test, and before testing we feel or experience. 'Proof reading' is about refining the written word. We can refine it to make it mean a whole lot more than it rightfully should. Like human life in general, it is a process of enlightening, as opposed to the enlightened state that some of us (you) may sometimes reach from time to time.

Carmody
7th August 2013, 03:24
we stop speaking / writing, lol, this will make for an empty forum and may be a higher vibration, us realizing ourselves all at the same time. ouf, who knows...

Now, that would be a different kind of forum... a forum for those to come to, to login, & to just 'BE'. One thing for sure... trolls would certainly stand out & be easy to identify ... :)



"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." Lao Tzu

Then what will our decision be about these 2 statements if Lao Tzu is right?
Just wondering now...

Stay together
Ray

Hi Ray,

From my understanding these statements of Lao Tzu can be found
in a book called Tao Te Ching (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9187-those-who-know-do-not-speak-those-who-speak-do).


http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/turiya_file/LAO_TZU_3_590_X_298.png

I have heard the following:

"Lao Tzu lived in silence. He always avoided talking about the truth that he had attained and he always rejected the idea that he should write it down for the generations to come.

At the age of ninety he took leave of his disciples. He said good-bye to them, and said, “Now I am moving towards the hills, towards the Himalayas. I am going there to get ready to die. It is good to live with people, it is good to be in the world while you are living, but when one is getting nearer to death it is good to move into total aloneness, so that you move towards the original source in your absolute purity and aloneness, uncontaminated by the world.”

The disciples felt very, very sad, but what could they do? They followed him for a few hundred miles, then, by and by, Lao Tzu persuaded them and they went back. Then alone he was crossing the border, and the guard on the border imprisoned him. The guard was also a disciple. And the guard said. “Unless you write a book, I am not going to allow you to move beyond the border. This much you must do for humanity. Write a book. That is the debt you have to pay, otherwise I won’t allow you to cross.” So for three days Lao Tzu was imprisoned by his own disciple… so that he would be forced to write down what could not be said or written…

The first sentence of the book reads as follows:

The Tao that can be told
Is not the Absolute Tao.

This is the first thing he has to say: that whatsoever can be said cannot be true. This is the introduction for the book. It simply makes you alert: now words will be following, don’t become victim of the words. Remember the wordless. Remember that which cannot be communicated through language, through words. The Tao can be communicated, but it can only be communicated from being to being. It can be communicated when you are with a Master, just with the Master, doing nothing, not even practicing anything. Just being with the Master, it can be communicated." [And Lao Tzu was indeed a Master.]
Source (http://www.osho.com/online-library-tao-lao-tzu-communicated-45136b7b-028.aspx)


turiya :cool:

I was about to comment on that.

I remember being wholly in the enlightened state, not needing to comment, or communicate or to share. It is what it is. And I asked myself, am I done here, yet, or is there more I can do, in the realm of the norm?

I decided there was... and began to try to communicate what I could, at the same time I began to put the pebbles back into my pockets, to anchor myself back into the mundane..

I was not understood.

So I stepped a layer further down.

I was still not understood.

I stepped down again.

I was partially understood but with much confusion.

I stepped down all the way.

I was finally understood.

But it was meaningless and disconnected from what is.

araucaria
7th August 2013, 09:25
Pregnant pause...

jiminii
7th August 2013, 11:33
Pregnant pause...

are you pregnant because you paused ??? or you paused after you got pregnant?

jim

araucaria
7th August 2013, 11:39
Pregnant pause...

are you pregnant because you paused ??? or you paused after you got pregnant?

jim

well Jim, as one young woman to another... I'll have to think about that one :)

ulli
7th August 2013, 13:53
Wow.
Just as I was about to give up on the idea...
It happened.
Our genius enlightened males are talking shyte!
Well done, boys.

P.S. I should have defined "enlightenment" more clearly.

The way I see it is to make others, who normally feel heavy,
feel lighter...like reduce their weight by a few kgs.

Heavy=dense.
Light=loose.

When one feels light, DNA coils uncoil,
which takes pressure off the light codes contained therein,
and the whole body lights up, as well as lightens up.

ulli
7th August 2013, 14:44
So, unless there is humor, enlightenment is a drag.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Jo7lJoQhtjw/SN1nyT_IKwI/AAAAAAAACbE/-s5ONWB333s/s1600/nirvana+cartoon.jpg

ulli
7th August 2013, 14:49
In some traditions followers would remove dirt from the soles of sandals of holy men,
to store on their private altars at home.
No wonder guru vanity was the result

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Jo7lJoQhtjw/SNrk4h7s1GI/AAAAAAAACWU/atPaQ_dq8OU/s1600/enlightenment+bigeyedeer.files.wordpress.com+WQ.bm p

mahalall
7th August 2013, 15:12
The serpents deception has created the construct (and fools our genders)-as helpful as ones meditation system is it is still within the construct of the game-the expanse of living with greater the equality principle as so sweetly highlighted by Ulli (thankyou) in the introduction of this thread is the key to the power of unlocking oneself-it's vibration is what opens the door into those inner cells!

araucaria
7th August 2013, 15:30
talking shyte!

like on the here&now thread? why didn't you say so?

write4change
7th August 2013, 15:47
Well, I can find a serious element in every joke,
just as I can extract humor out of tragic situations.

So, the energy of that Groucho Marx joke is about social climbing,
to such heights where one knows one is not deserving, at least not yet.
Maybe with the hope to fit in one day in the future.

A lofty, forbidding environment has a lot of pull...
exclusivity is the name of the game behind designer labels,
and expensive status symbols.

Altogether this sums up why feelings of insecurity persist in the world,
as people aren't getting the real goods which connect them to the big battery,
but only fake and glamorous substitutes.

Are you trying to suggest that people are more concerned with images, being right (appearing “better”) than learning and growing and discovering “truth”. Cuz I’m on board if you are…

I get kinda lost sometimes though….were we talking about p!ssing contests, and then one broke out?

When I was in 4th grade, bussed in to the inner city school…my classmates and I would have long-shot contests, where we started at the urinal, and then kept taking steps back, mid-urination, and whoever was still hitting it from the farthest away was the winner.

Some played to win, to be the longest p!sser. Some played to not be ostercized from the rest of group. Some were too self-conscious to get involved. Me? I had two reasons…I was curious to see how far I could p!ss…and more importantly: I liked a chance to p!ss on the floor, besides being fun—I hated that school.

This is sort of what I'm talking about when I speak of male escalation, new norms, searching for new pleasures that are a differential, higher than the new plateau that people are on. In this case, dominant males in a system that is stable ....and then seeking to be dominant in that system.

This means they seek a higher... escalation.

I explained it to a friend the other day, in this way.

First man through the door, pushes the person aside.

Second man through the doorway kills the person.

Third man through the doorway decapitates the corpse.

Fourth man through the doorway has sex with it.

escalation, escalation, escalation, and decay....as forms of projected dominance.

When the male is allowed to exist in his ego as a projection of his thought formation, and this is allowed to arise as a system of patriarchy and societal control and subjugation.... then this horrific decay is the final result. The smaller circles of logic of ego outward projection...don't allow for the understanding that the body's ego 'rose colored glasses' exhibit and are the formation of all thought pattern development. If that ego is allowed to persist, then the animal decay to new heights from the last..is always the result.

When any form of this comes toward a person or a group, they should consider stopping it in it's tracks and making sure it moves no further and also that it is ended in it's entirety, in it's totality. As left alone, it's infection will continue, unabated, always seeking a path. to remove it at the root, at the formation of it's origins.

Which circles all the way back to the stories of a 'bookmark' a 'path' being inserted into the moment of creation of the human avatar, in the root system of the avatar embodiment pathways. Like programmers build into their software, someone built a back door into the depths of the human avatar. Down in the origins of thought formation, where it sits unrecognized by the developed consciousness aspects of 3D linear time existence.

That ego, it is the block, the diode, the porcupine quill of not allowing for the looking inward. A literal block on inner thought, blocking higher mind and lower mind connectivity...labeled and covered with a block built on pain and suffering if one should try. the ego is an enforced smaller circle of knowing and logic.

And the patriarchal system we have today, in society, religion, science, politics, finance, academia, and so on.... is the literal arm of enforcement in keeping it in place.

I have been reading this thread all of it and have had different feelings about it as I go. I find this to be the best synopsis so far of what I think as a whole.


I have been reading since I was four and got into Edgar Rice Burroughs very early and so did not have the concept of what science fiction means--it was another story and all stories have elements of truth if you listen. They can teach both what to become and what not to become and in the old days often how.

When I was about ten I read a book called Genesis. I have not seen it since and it could not have been popular otherwise I would have found it again and I do not remember the author. What it was about was ETs coming down and trying to save the human race through genetic engineering. Their diagnosis of what was wrong with the human race was a gene of hierarchy that was deeply embedded. They kept changing the human form in order to destroy the gene. As we became more and more monsters, the gene was never diminished. We ceased being anything that resembled being human except for the gene. During this long process, humanity became aware of what was being done to them but nonetheless could not give up the concept that I am better than the masses because somehow my gene for this is stronger than theirs.

I read the book several times then because in some ways I was fascinated by the horror of it. I had nightmares about it for a long time. It remains the only story that I found completely horrifying. I have become aware that I have always thrown away power and the pursuit of it and I have always known it came from this book. I see this played out often with both males and females. I think the reason we do not see it so much in women, is that as a whole most women to do not have that much real power. The power of beauty is very transient for most women. There is much history of men of power being changed by women and giving up power for women. But there is no story of a major woman of power giving it up for men.

I will continue reading this thread and commenting on it today before it totally gets away from me.

Flash
7th August 2013, 16:06
In answer to write4change post right above,, The sex appetite is stronger than the thriving thirst for power, this is why some men did give away their power to some women. It became a game of power which the women won, through the use of sex, one of the fiercest power there is. Directly attached to the reptilian brain and the survival of the ego/body.

Rarely, there were some women who were so enlightened that they could help a men transform himself. This happened too, but certainly not with Hilary Clinton ;)

write4change
7th August 2013, 16:13
Yes, getting back to the OP...



Here is what I wrote in the OP:

"I love it when people get IT, especially because they have all arrived there by taking different paths.
And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further,
modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.

My only regret is that many highly enlightened men, who, more than the enlightened women I know,
don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men, who also got IT.
I so wish for this to happen."

I should have stopped there instead of going into musings about the differences between men and women in general.
That was my mistake, and I regret it.
Lesson learnt.

But the central reasoning behind why 'many enlightened men... don't unite more into brotherly teams, with other men who also got IT...' is basic to the understanding as to why this phenomenon does not take place... after all, it is the plain simple difference(s) that exists between male & feminine energy types...

Going into it a bit further... differences between male & feminine energies, this underlies the different roads that are taken toward the attainment of ‘higher’ states of awareness.

To reiterate, man is dependent on woman when it comes to the creation of new life. In the birthing of a child, man can only do this through the woman. But as far as in the dimension in which a "spiritual birth" is concerned, it is reversed – woman is dependent upon the man in order to move higher in consciousness. Just as there are physical differences, and the same is with regards to the world of spirituality. Man can attain enlightenment more directly, whereas woman, generally speaking, has to go through man (i.e. relationship(s)) to attain 'heightened' states of awareness. Woman, for the most part, has to take this indirect approach.

It is not a question of equality or inequality, it is simply because the male & female are different. And due to this difference lay the basic reason why there are fundamentally two different roads, or path-ways, which can lead one to enlightenment. And these two are: 1) the path of meditation; and 2) the path of love. In Yoga terms these two are known as Gyana Yoga & Bhakti Yoga – the paths of knowledge & devotion.

Meditation can be done alone. Love, on the other hand, needs another physical human being. Man has been known to achieve through meditation – this is what is meant by attaining ‘directly’. It is much easier for man to be alone. Deep down he is more connected to this state of aloneness. It comes more natural to a man. For a woman to be alone is more difficult. Instead, she has a deep urge to love, and to be loved. And for this, another individual is needed.

The woman reaches the meditative state through love. Man’s male energy reaches through meditation. It is possible for the woman to reach the meditative state only after moving through love; whereas the man reaches love, a flowering of compassion, through the meditative experience in absolute aloneness.

This emphasis in literature on 'being alone' has come because of so many men becoming previously enlightened in the past. Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu, Mohammed & many others – all of them went into the solitude of their aloneness. Fewer enlightened woman have their place marked with prominence.

For a man, the deep desire is for freedom – freedom from… freedom from rules, freedom from society, freedom from others… freedom from one’s own mind & its conditioning – sitting alone in meditation is enough to set the stage for what can come next.

For a woman, the deep desire is for love. In order to experience love, woman will need another physical human being, a community of others, but that other human being will always become less & less satisfying, less & less fulfilling, because the absolute union of the two is not possible. The physical partner can only fulfill the outer woman, but cannot be brought to the center of her being. After several experiences falling short, encountering unsatisfactory physical partners – with the resultant frustration – will woman come to the point of feeling comfortable with a non physical divine partner, which can then lead to the outer woman meeting her inner man in her state of aloneness.

Man, on the other hand, can do this without this need to be with others. He is capable of reaching the inner heights of his being in his aloneness. Upon reaching the higher levels of consciousness, the flowering of compassion takes place. He then returns to the world to share the treasure with others. Such a one has been referred to as a bodhisatva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva).


turiya :cool:

From my personal experience I find this post to be very profound.

Flash
7th August 2013, 16:17
OK, I must admit, after waiting post after post to see if I could understand the acronyms when in context, I must admit I still don't: what means IT? Thanks for the answer (it feels so silly to ask for this, the feeling is that I should have understood it by now, I am below half of Carmody's IQ right now - lol)

Edit: I reread some post and I think I have been too litteral, wanting a grammatical meaning, IT means enlightenment, nirvana, etc. Is that IT????

ulli
7th August 2013, 16:32
OK, I must admit, after waiting post after post to see if I could understand the acronyms when in context, I must admit I still don't: what means IT? Thanks for the answer (it feels so silly to ask for this, the feeling is that I should have understood it by now, I am below half of Carmody's IQ right now - lol)

Edit: I reread some post and I think I have been too litteral, wanting a grammatical meaning, IT means enlightenment, nirvana, etc. Is that IT????

No harm in asking. I apologize for not spelling it out earlier.
He, = masculine
She = feminine
It= neutral.
IT capitalized is the creator beyond duality of male god, female goddess.
The zero point where everything resides.
Getting IT, means reaching a state of non-duality.

write4change
7th August 2013, 17:23
I will now spend the rest of the day thinking about this thread. I have spent since the dawn reading it and it is now noon here. I often feel my major difference from most here in Avalon is certainty. I have no certainty of anything. Even my most profound experiences I cannot prove and in the current world without synergy of science and spirituality--what I most profoundly "know" would be classified delusion.

One of the reason's I post less and less is the principle of the OP of this thread. When I first ran into Terrence McKenna I found him interesting-- in my 40s I just put every thing into abeyance. I am so grateful for all his talks being available on youtube. The more wisdom I am able to obtain, the more profound I find him and the more understanding I get of him from reading his books again. He had a lot of prescience but he never claimed certainty. Someone very big on this site (male) with a lot of influence labeled him a cracked out drug addict. I found that appalling. This male is a good man but he has his own problems and his certainty seems to me to be one of them. But this male good intentions causes me to forgive him much.

Some really profound current thinkers are almost never mentioned on this site. My duality is always in front of me. For a long time, I led my life with my mind which I consider a masculine trait, as I was taught most deeply by males and it was only male minds I was deeply exposed to. I think experience is a very big deal. I did not know what love was until I felt love. I was profoundly deeply touch by love with a man's hand and body. With that experience I was changed forever.

Since returning to rural Texas and observing long term marriages which are quite common here, I realize how difficult it is to find love within a small community which has very little experience in love. Almost all marriages here are fraught with issues of control. I would say all because I have met no exceptions but surely there are some. Rural life in many ways is settling and submission. It is my task now to see if I can stay grounded, centered and sane. Interesting, the problem was the same in Beverly Hills. I left there. I am quite aware that wherever I go there I am. none the less, I feel the universe has led me to certain places to learn certain things.

turiya
7th August 2013, 17:33
I was about to comment on that.

I remember being wholly in the enlightened state, not needing to comment, or communicate or to share. It is what it is. And I asked myself, am I done here, yet, or is there more I can do, in the realm of the norm?

I decided there was... and began to try to communicate what I could, at the same time I began to put the pebbles back into my pockets, to anchor myself back into the mundane..

I was not understood.

So I stepped a layer further down.

I was still not understood.

I stepped down again.

I was partially understood but with much confusion.

I stepped down all the way.

I was finally understood.

But it was meaningless and disconnected from what is.

In other words - all words are lies.

turiya :cool:

ulli
7th August 2013, 17:34
I will now spend the rest of the day thinking about this thread. I have spent since the dawn reading it and it is now noon here. I often feel my major difference from most here in Avalon is certainty. I have no certainty of anything. Even my most profound experiences I cannot prove and in the current world without synergy of science and spirituality--what I most profoundly "know" would be classified delusion.

One of the reason's I post less and less is the principle of the OP of this thread. When I first ran into Terrence McKenna I found him interesting-- in my 40s I just put every thing into abeyance. I am so grateful for all his talks being available on youtube. The more wisdom I am able to obtain, the more profound I find him and the more understanding I get of him from reading his books again. He had a lot of prescience but he never claimed certainty. Someone very big on this site (male) with a lot of influence labeled him a cracked out drug addict. I found that appalling. This male is a good man but he has his own problems and his certainty seems to me to be one of them. But this male good intentions causes me to forgive him much.

Some really profound current thinkers are almost never mentioned on this site. My duality is always in front of me. For a long time, I led my life with my mind which I consider a masculine trait, as I was taught most deeply by males and it was only male minds I was deeply exposed to. I think experience is a very big deal. I did not know what love was until I felt love. I was profoundly deeply touch by love with a man's hand and body. With that experience I was changed forever.

Since returning to rural Texas and observing long term marriages which are quite common here, I realize how difficult it is to find love within a small community which has very little experience in love. Almost all marriages here are fraught with issues of control. I would say all because I have met no exceptions but surely there are some. Rural life in many ways is settling and submission. It is my task now to see if I can stay grounded, centered and sane. Interesting, the problem was the same in Beverly Hills. I left there. I am quite aware that wherever I go there I am. none the less, I feel the universe has led me to certain places to learn certain things.


You might consider if you are not only visiting places to learn lessons,
but to teach, too.

Those who never move anywhere else need a mover and shaker to appear in their midst,
or they would never wake up.

skippy
7th August 2013, 17:40
In other words - all words are lies.



No, but words are not 'IT', defined as 'Das Ding an sich', in the non-duality sense of terms. Words are a reduction and a reification of 'IT'.. oefff :cool:

write4change
7th August 2013, 17:51
You are right Ulli. I am trying to decide how dangerous it is. There is a big history here of burning people out and murdering people who do not fit in. There is no democracy here. The city council of 9 for a city of 3000 just inaugurated 5 new members only 1 elected the rest appointed because no one would run. They then repealed term limits. The one elected council member was elected by 39 votes.

Some terrible things have already happened to me but I consider them messages from the universe and I have now committed to staying put for a year and seeing what evolves without giving up my ability to make choices.

Early June, they had universal garage sales and annul event across all of northern Texas, I walked across the street to one. The guy there told me he was not interested in seliing me anything. He said I had already earned a reputation of being a pain in the butt to the city. I had never laid eyes on him. LOL

I often think about writing about my experiences here at Avalon and getting advice but the topic of your OP and the knowledge that has been much skyping about me in the past and it was posted and immediately taken down by Paul but I find it to be disconcerting. I need advice not psychological pounding right now which is what certainty feels like to me. the more imput I could get, the more I could see the big picture.

Flash
7th August 2013, 18:30
OK, I must admit, after waiting post after post to see if I could understand the acronyms when in context, I must admit I still don't: what means IT? Thanks for the answer (it feels so silly to ask for this, the feeling is that I should have understood it by now, I am below half of Carmody's IQ right now - lol)

Edit: I reread some post and I think I have been too litteral, wanting a grammatical meaning, IT means enlightenment, nirvana, etc. Is that IT????

No harm in asking. I apologize for not spelling it out earlier.
He, = masculine
She = feminine
It= neutral.
IT capitalized is the creator beyond duality of male god, female goddess.
The zero point where everything resides.
Getting IT, means reaching a state of non-duality.

Now I understand!! Thanks, I also realize that we do not have neutral gender/pronoun in French, therefore I remained in my old paradigm of everything gendered - oops, does it mean that French cannot reach a state of non-duality?:p lol

araucaria
7th August 2013, 19:13
all words are lies.


Yes ! ! ! :)

Ernie Nemeth
9th August 2013, 17:21
If all words are lies then we are all liars. Yup, sounds about right. Heck, I lie most to myself. Recently, I learned that the hard way. Now, I won't talk to myself any more. This is pissing me off because now I don't have anyone who believes every word I say...

araucaria
9th August 2013, 18:29
If all words are lies then we are all liars. Yup, sounds about right. Heck, I lie most to myself. Recently, I learned that the hard way. Now, I won't talk to myself any more. This is pissing me off because now I don't have anyone who believes every word I say...
Please talk to yourself ernie :) because there is something to believe in every word you say. When I jokingly answered Yes all words are lies, it was to highlight the paradox. If "all words are lies" is true, then the phrase itself it false, which makes it possibly true and so on. And my yes means no means yes means no... :)

transiten
9th August 2013, 18:56
I just listened to an interview on radio with a young man and woman here in Sweden having written 3 books together that have been translated into many languages "The Circle" "Fire" and yet one more. It was sheer joy to listen to their appreciation of eachother and how the guy praised his female coworker for her intelligence admitting he had talked to his therapist about it since he felt somewhat inferior to her. She also had gone through therapy and they could always talk about their hang-ups.

I feel great hope for the new generation:happy:

ulli
9th August 2013, 18:57
Don't buy into the lies.
Words are used by liars as well as honest people.
Be honest and enjoy the power of your words.
Words have power...
creation comes about through the word 'BE!'

Fred Steeves
9th August 2013, 19:36
Don't buy into the lies.
Words are used by liars as well as honest people.
Be honest and enjoy the power of your words.
Words have power...
creation comes about through the word 'BE!'

Huh, interesting starting with Ernie's post how a few of us have interpreted the "all words are lies" thing differently, men and women alike. I was quietly agreeing it's true in that words can never even *begin* to describe a level of reality that one is not yet ready for. So yes, in that respect all words would essentially be lies, no matter how honestly intended.

This is something my wife and I have learned to watch out for over the years, as from time to time we'll suddenly find ourselves beginning to argue about "something", but neither one really knows what the hell that "something" really is! (LOL)

One way to unwind that that baby real quick is to go back to the very beginning. "Wait a minute now, hold on... Just what did you mean exactly when you said 'xyz' ?" Usually a good little chuckle ensues, and it's on with the day. :)

Strat
9th August 2013, 19:49
My .02c wisdom post for the day (which I stole from the documentary Amongst White Clouds):
"Ten thousand things all in this breath, grasping hold of emptiness. There is really nothing to say."

Ulli I'm gonna PM you when I get a chance. I've a question for you but it would immediately deviate the topic and possibly stir the pot.

ulli
9th August 2013, 20:00
My .02c wisdom post for the day (which I stole from the documentary Amongst White Clouds):
"Ten thousand things all in this breath, grasping hold of emptiness. There is really nothing to say."

Ulli I'm gonna PM you when I get a chance. I've a question for you but it would immediately deviate the topic and possibly stir the pot.

When you PM me, how will you do it without using words, or saying anything at all?
Curious now. Don't keep me in suspense.
Watch your words, and remember, I'm ready for a pack o' lies.

turiya
9th August 2013, 20:07
If all words are lies then we are all liars. Yup, sounds about right. Heck, I lie most to myself. Recently, I learned that the hard way. Now, I won't talk to myself any more. This is pissing me off because now I don't have anyone who believes every word I say...
Please talk to yourself ernie :) because there is something to believe in every word you say. When I jokingly answered Yes all words are lies, it was to highlight the paradox. If "all words are lies" is true, then the phrase itself it false, which makes it possibly true and so on. And my yes means no means yes means no... :)


http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/turiya_file/moon_545_x_130.png

All words are lies... Words cannot be the truth. Words are merely used to point to the truth. At most they are used to talk about the truth. In saying that 'all words are lies', it doesn't mean that words are not useful. They can be used as sign posts. They are useful to point in the direction of truth.

For example, take a finger that points to the moon. The finger is not the moon. But one can get hung up & stuck on the finger, one can believe that the finger is the moon. Bibles, Korans, Dhammapadas, Gitas, are books with words, books that contain fingers pointing to the truth. But how many are stuck on these books, and not moving beyond the words found in these books?

A mirror can reflect the moon. But is the reflection the real moon? In this regard, the reflection of the moon is a lie.

Words are not the truth. But being sensitive, being alert & aware, truth can be found in the spaces between the words. Read between the lines, that is where the truth can be felt. The empty spaces are full of the truth. Quiet the mind, in the quiet stillness, you will come find that this is true.

But please do not believe in what is said... it is a lie... it is just a finger pointing... just find it out for yourself. Discover the moon for yourself... as nobody can discover IT for you.

turiya :cool:

Strat
9th August 2013, 20:13
When you PM me, how will you do it without using words, or saying anything at all?
Curious now. Don't keep me in suspense.
Watch your words, and remember, I'm ready for a pack o' lies.

Apparently I'm going to lie with a lot of words. I'll try and keep my lies grammatically correct.

(tongue in cheek, much love)

ulli
9th August 2013, 20:19
If all words are lies then we are all liars. Yup, sounds about right. Heck, I lie most to myself. Recently, I learned that the hard way. Now, I won't talk to myself any more. This is pissing me off because now I don't have anyone who believes every word I say...
Please talk to yourself ernie :) because there is something to believe in every word you say. When I jokingly answered Yes all words are lies, it was to highlight the paradox. If "all words are lies" is true, then the phrase itself it false, which makes it possibly true and so on. And my yes means no means yes means no... :)

All words are lies... Words cannot be the truth. Words are merely used to point to the truth. At most they are used to talk about the truth. In saying that 'all words are lies', it doesn't mean that words are not useful. They can be used as sign posts. They are useful to point in the direction of truth.

For example, take a finger that points to the moon. The finger is not moon. But one can get hung up & stuck on the finger, one can believe that the finger is the moon. Bibles, Korans, Dhammapadas, Gitas, are books with words, book that contain fingers pointing to the truth. But how many are stuck on these books, and not moving beyond the words found in these books.

A mirror can reflect the moon. But is the reflection the real moon? In this regard, the reflection of the moon is a lie.

Words are not the truth. But being sensitive, being alert & aware, truth can be found in the spaces between the words. Read between the lines, that is where the truth can be felt. The empty spaces are full of the truth. Quiet the mind, in the quiet stillness, you will come find that this is true.

Do not believe in what is said... find it out for yourself. Discover the moon for yourself.

turiya :cool:


The words that are lies are those used in advertising...
or by preachy people,
words which have become cliches....

If someone really wants to rant against words
they need to practice what they preach, or their words are as empty husks.

Here we celebrate the use of language, the ability to uplift, to inspire.

ulli
9th August 2013, 20:28
When you PM me, how will you do it without using words, or saying anything at all?
Curious now. Don't keep me in suspense.
Watch your words, and remember, I'm ready for a pack o' lies.

Apparently I'm going to lie with a lot of words. I'll try and keep my lies grammatically correct.

(tongue in cheek, much love)

I respect your words, as I have read many of your posts and found them to be of value.
Just because one member voices silence, which is an oxymoron...
we don't have to believe them.

The authority of eastern thought is dissipating as fast as that of all the other antiquated systems of thought...
and has nothing to do with the current issues of our planet, least of all the topic of this thread.