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View Full Version : Need a piece of advice, please. (How to deal with religious parents-in-law?)



RMorgan
3rd September 2013, 13:04
Hey folks,

Well, you know I rarely ask for advice because I´m usually cool enough to figure out things on my own.

However, that are some things going on that are really close to drive me mad.

Let me explain the situation.

I recently moved to a small town, where my wife´s family lives. They have a family business and my wife is currently working with them, and since I basically work from the internet, I didn´t bother moving. Besides, I´m highly enjoying the countless benefits of living in a small town.

The problem is that my father and mother in law are evangelic christian pastors, pretty much fundamentalists, and I´m an atheist.

Everything is ok from my side, really. I always respect people. I´m not the kind of guy who goes around preaching my convictions, and I respect them and their faith. I´m totally ok with that. The thing is, they don´t respect me in return.

I find it very curious, since myself as an atheist can peacefully coexist with them, but them, with all their christian morals, can´t coexist with my convictions without trying to lecture me all the time...This is driving me mad.

I really try to change subject whenever they start to annoy me with their mad rants, but they are gradually pushing me harder and harder...If things continue like this, I´m aware that very probably I´ll loose my temper one of these days and tell them some hard truths, but I also know that if I do that, it would really damage our relationship.

So, this is it...I would really appreciate some advice. I know I should do anything within my reach to preserve a good relationship with my wife´s family, but I feel like it´s all on me...I really wish they could also make some efforts to achieve a peaceful mutual respect relationship, but they are simply too brainwashed to do that. For them, if I don´t believe in god, then I´m not a good human being, independently of my highly exquisite ethical standards and good character.

I really don´t know what to do...You know I´m a very inquisitive and rational person, and it´s really extremely hard for me to keep my mouth shut while practically being obliged to listen to fallacious and nonsensical sermons five days a week.

I have the right to voice my opinion when confronted with something I don´t agree with and I am abstaining from that right for the sake of family life. I´m not feeling fine about that and I don´t know for how long I´ll be able to keep it that way.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Raf.

PS : Please, do not transform this thread into an atheist x theist debate.

AriG
3rd September 2013, 13:23
Wow Raf. Quite a conundrum. You are an Atheist and not only did you marry into a family with Evangelical ( meaning it is their sworn duty to convert the non-believers ) Pastors, you actually moved into their little Hamlet. I won't tease you with references to a potential desire to be convinced otherwise, although you might want to think about that. My 2 cents worth? Move. You are not going to change them. If you want to maintain your marriage, confrontation won't work either. There is no solution to this problem other than distance. The Middle East is a good example of the situation in which you find yourself. Died in the wool convictions can rarely be overcome and your in-laws are convinced that it is their spiritual duty to save you, they won't cease until you are converted. Your only other option is to lie to them and tell them that you have "seen the light". Not a very good way to live. Again, this is my opinion without knowing all the little nuances that shape your personal life. Best of luck, seriously. That's a tough spot you find yourself in.

dianna
3rd September 2013, 13:24
Hey folks,

Well, you know I rarely ask for advice because I´m usually cool enough to figure out things on my own.

However, that are some things going on that are really close to drive me mad.

Let me explain the situation.

I recently moved to a small town, where my wife´s family lives. They have a family business and my wife is currently working with them, and since I basically work from the internet, I didn´t bother moving. Besides, I´m highly enjoying the countless benefits of living in a small town.

The problem is that my father and mother in law are evangelic christian pastors, pretty much fundamentalists, and I´m an atheist.

Everything is ok from my side, really. I always respect people. I´m not the kind of guy who goes around preaching my convictions, and I respect them and their faith. I´m totally ok with that. The thing is, they don´t respect me in return.

I find it very curious, since myself as an atheist can peacefully coexist with them, but them, with all their christian morals, can´t coexist with my convictions without trying to lecture me all the time...This is driving me mad.

I really try to change subject whenever they start to annoy me with their mad rants, but they are gradually pushing me harder and harder...If things continue like this, I´m aware that very probably I´ll loose my temper one of these days and tell them some hard truths, but I also know that if I do that, it would really damage our relationship.

So, this is it...I would really appreciate some advice. I know I should do anything within my reach to preserve a good relationship with my wife´s family, but I feel like it´s all on me...I really wish they could also make some efforts to achieve a peaceful mutual respect relationship, but they are simply too brainwashed to do that. For them, if I don´t believe in god, then I´m not a good human being, independently of my highly exquisite ethical standards and good character.

I really don´t know what to do...You know I´m a very inquisitive and rational person, and it´s really extremely hard for me to keep my mouth shut while practically being obliged to listen to fallacious and nonsensical sermons five days a week.

I have the right to voice my opinion when confronted with something I don´t agree with and I am abstaining from that right for the sake of family life. I´m not feeling fine about that and I don´t know for how long I´ll be able to keep it that way.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Raf.

PS : Please, do not transform this thread into an atheist x theist debate.

Have you spoken to your wife, and what does she think?

ulli
3rd September 2013, 13:25
You can't win this one, Raf, it's one against too many. They have the backing of the whole of the Protestant branch of Christianity, which was based on the rebellion against the Catholic Church.
If they are born again Christians, in a mainly Catholic country like Brazil, then a lot of their opinion is fueled by this stance against Catholicism, so that adds even more to their conviction.
They not only fear for your soul, but also their own, if they don't go around evangelizing.
Your only option is to keep your distance....let your wife know that she can go and visit them on her own. Disappear when they come over. Your inner work here should also not be neglected...let go of that self image you carry...
Maybe switch to agnostic, but let it be known that you will not tolerate any preaching.
When all else fails, I suggest to move to another (small) town, fifty miles away.

Mu2143
3rd September 2013, 13:25
.......................................................

RMorgan
3rd September 2013, 13:36
Have you spoken to your wife, and what does she think?

Yes, of course.

My wife doesn´t share their beliefs as well. She´s more like an agnostic.

She also has a hard time trying to peacefully coexist with them, but since they are her parents and she loves them very much, she´s got an extremely relevant extra incentive towards practicing tolerance.

She´s just graduated and it has always been her dream to take over the family business, which she´s very passionate about...So, she really wants to be here.

Raf.

Sidney
3rd September 2013, 13:38
Hey Raf, You did not say what your wifes beliefs are. Religiously, which side of the fence does she sit on? Why does this matter? I feel, when you marry, your obligations shift from your family(you parents), to your spouse, and the obligation to keep things running smoothly with regards to your in-laws, is the responsibility of your wife for the most part. And, if it were your parents, that were creating division, then it would be your responsibility to try to reason with them.

You and your wife are a team. (should be anyway), and you and your wife TOGETHER, need to sort things out to find a solution, as it should not be your burden alone.

Now, in my opinion, that is the way things should work. in reality, things don't always work, the way we logically think they should. Have a heart to heart talk with your wife, and explain to her how much a harmonious relationship with her family means to you, but that their closed minded thinking is just not realistic, in the big scheme of things.

If you cannot come to an understanding with them, where everyone is happy, you may have no choice but to find a different small town, where you can reside peacefully. It does say something about your spirit that you are going above and beyond to resolve this. For that alone, you deserve their respect. Good luck.

spiritguide
3rd September 2013, 13:38
Open a dialog with them to explain that you respect their beliefs and your being among them is not a ploy to convert or divert any of them. Just ask them to rely on their beliefs to respect yours. At the core of all belief is love, if you exude it they will recognize it and respect it. Do not accept other's mission in life as an attack on you. Do not let them discourage you, just hear their noise as music and flow with the rhythm and smile. IMHO

Peace!

christian
3rd September 2013, 13:45
I once read a story of a man who went to the mosque often and was respected by the whole community. He also went to a synagogue, same story there, and to a Christian church. Only when the different groups found out about him going to all the different places, they got mad with him.

So my advice to you is, go to all the places, but don't get caught. Believe what you want to believe, but take life more playfully. Simply choose to appreciate their rants and lectures and go along with them, I mean unless it would become way too extreme, demanding things from you that would take away the time from most of your day.

If I had a wife that would be Muslim for example, I'd honor Allah with her parents and even pray towards Mekka and whatever comes with it, if she and her parents would appreciate it. (If she wants to get out of Islam, then I'd support her in that.) I don't think it would kill me or make my life miserable, quite to the contrary, I think it could be kind of fun. Anyways, what I'd really think of while doing all this would be, "I pray for a greater and genuine understanding that transcends the attachment or aversion to religious texts."

I believe that your parents-in-law may have found strength, guidance, and inspiration through their faith. Now telling them that all of their faith is senseless would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think the most gentle approach that you could take towards opening them up to new perspectives would be to join them and very rarely drop some info about (say) the Nag Hammadi scrolls, parallels in Sumerian texts, and all these kinds of things with an attitude of genuine curiosity.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

Given all that, I'm not saying going at them with hard cold facts and your beliefs straight ahead is the "wrong" approach. There is no wrong approach really, it's a matter of style, personal inclination, choice, love of experimentation, and so on. I think in dealing with your parents-in-law there's way more than the black and white; accept what they say vs. fight what they say. I'd venture into the grey areas.

animovado
3rd September 2013, 13:48
Hi Raf,

are they talking (more or less) to everyone like this or are you the main objective for their sermons, because you're unaffiliated with any religion?

Are their repeating parrot-fashioned always the same things or is it more challenging?

Is'nt it funny that one of the aims of jesus was - if we like to believe the gospels - that we learn to lay aside the holy scriptures and tradition and behave like a caring, respectful and loving human?

Maybe you have to show them how you feel in a respectful manner.

To show people around me my own vulnerability was most of the time the brave first step to conquer new frontiers.

Mark (Star Mariner)
3rd September 2013, 13:52
Hey RM. A real toughie for sure! As the others above me have said, don't even think about tackling/debating them, or hunkering down for any potential battle of words/philosophies. You cannot win. And that is not because they simply will never listen, but as an atheist you are void of a spiritual ideology of your own to combat with. Thus you are weaponless, which for them makes you a prime target to prey on... Because you're an atheist, they will come at you all the more harder.

So I can think of no constructive advice to give other than:

A). Endure them, and just turn a deaf ear.
B). Move. Just get out of there.
C) Listen to what they have say - or at least try to find God in your own way, in a way that is agreeable to you.

sirdipswitch
3rd September 2013, 13:53
Above all else it is up to you my friend, to keep the peace and to project nothing but love and patience toward them. They have and are, continually brainwashing themselves, (the worst kind of brainwashing) in order to maintain their beliefs and remain at the top of their church as Pastors. How long they have been Pastors, is also a major problem. The longer they've been such, the bigger the problem. If he was first, and then she followed suit?? Double whammy!! cc. You are "A" nothing person, in their eyes, and they will not listen to a nothing person. You ain't gonna change them. So...

Perk up... be happy... don't let them get you down. This is YOUR journey... not theirs. You are the one that must maintain the strength of character.

I have a Son that is studyin to be a Christian Minister, and am going through much the same. He knows all that I do as an Astral Projector that has returned to my true Spirit Self, and we have been toe to toe for almost three years now. And I have even shown him that I can jump from place to place with anything that ain't bolted down, and he just thinks I'm possessed and that it's Satan making me do "tricks" for him. So I just keep the humor alive and Love him anyway.

Either you are strong enough in your "faith," to keep the peace, or yer not... it's that simple.

And I know yer strong enough... yer a member of Avalon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dianna
3rd September 2013, 13:55
Have you spoken to your wife, and what does she think?

Yes, of course.

My wife doesn´t share their beliefs as well.

She also has a hard time trying to peacefully coexist with them, but since they are her parents and she loves them very much, she´s got an extremely relevant extra incentive towards practicing tolerance.

She´s just graduated and it has always been her dream to take over the family business, which she´s very passionate about...So, she really wants to be here.

Raf.

This is the most important thing in trying to solve the problem --- and, as long as you and your wife are on the same spiritual page I think the problem is solvable --- Your inlaws will probably never see it from your point of view if they are "christian goners" --- so your response to them has to be one that keeps the peace and shuts them down at the same time --- fighting back is not the answer. You and your wife have to present a strong front together, as it seems there is alot of love between herself and her family ---

Peace&Love
3rd September 2013, 13:58
Dear RMorgan,

What a great question :) to answer.
The short version of my answer is: Unless they have inner motive to question their beliefs you will never be able to set them straight.

Longer version: I am coming from a very strict religious orthodox Jewish family where you pray three times a day, say blessing all day long and if you are not Obsessive Compulsive by genetic inheritance at the age of 6 you will surely soon become as you are continuously contemplating if you are doing what God expects you too with highest precision and intentions, as you do not want to disobey the loving / punishing God.

The matter of the fact that this issue of religion is that is very highly wired in the brain neurons as when a baby is born to such family the love of his parents equals the love to the tradition and religion, so even if you say the truth in their face 100 times a day it still wont go inside. Why? Because you are trying to cancel their most inner feelings and paradigms towards what is love and compassion. Unless something happens to themselves at most inner level to make them question things and discern the reality there is actually very little you can do except for being just who you are growing spiritually as you can and understand that they are in a much darker place than you are.
Be strong with your love and control your thoughts and feelings because all the answers for everything are already inside you.

With much love to you and your family,

Peace&Love

Operator
3rd September 2013, 13:59
Hi Raf,

I recognize your situation a bit. Without going into too much details my wife is a practicing protestant and my kids
and I are very skeptical about religion. I leave her be but my kids frequently oppose her religious based statements.
Now she accuses me that it's all my fault. Apparently it's OK to pump children full with religious beliefs and when
they arrive on a religious level then THAT is the right teaching!

It is an endless debate. I also spoke to some Jehovah's witnesses recently. I warn them upfront and I don't send
them away, I cordially try to have a discussion (some of them are still capable of doing that too).

I tell them that I have studied the bible too and that when you broaden the context by other documentation and
teachings it is possible to arrive at another conclusion. It almost always ends the same way. They will tell you that
you are not coming from the 'right' perspective. There is only one and it's theirs. Although they appear to be open minded,
they're really not at all. The only fruitful conclusion of that debate then is that they leave and never return.
They know they can't win the debate ... maybe something sticks with them ... I don't know.

Now back to my domestic situation ... when my kids oppose my wife's statements I try to extinguish the flames by
telling them that I understand their concerns but they should have an educated opinion and that they are still too
young to have a good one. To go study the subject some more if they really want to rightfully debate the issue.

Here are some things that might help you:

1. Avoid situations/moments that focus on the issue
2. Try to stop 'listening' (take in unwanted info) ...
3. Politely ask them to respect you as a human being
4. Perhaps let them know how it makes you feel (but NOT on an anger moment)
5. Do not debate with people that are not open to debate
6. Don't let this feeling get out on an anger moment. They will know how they can
'touch' you. Besides letting it all out when the bucket is full always has unpredictable (often bad) results.

I'm afraid that you're not alone buddy ... ;)

donk
3rd September 2013, 14:00
Hey Raf…have you tried the “Christ-like life” angle? You practice it, from what I’ve read of your stuff—it shows everywhere.

Just tell them that you feel that only part of the bible that speaks to you is Jesus’ words, his walking the walk of unconditional love…he taught that you should love everyone, and only God should judge. So while you appreciate their concern for your soul, you feel that it is not-Christlike for them to treat you this way, and if anything it is pushing you further away from embracing anything Christianity has to offer.

I feel like the lesson I learned one time: sometimes less is better…applies here. Get a few real basic (but strong) nuggets, maybe not the exact ones I offered, but find something—through empathy and understanding of them, the people they are—that can transcend or connect real spirituality to the dogmatic beliefs you are not going to be able to change, that they are most defensive of.

You have a responsibility to yourself, and have to find a common ground somewhere…even if it means compromising your beliefs a little—or at least the way you word them when discussing with them. And as for the ones that you can’t, there are always a way to word truths so that anyone can hear and understand them—it’s just that finding the specific way for the specific person.

Knowing you, you already tried that, but who knows….maybe it is a little helpful.

william r sanford72
3rd September 2013, 14:04
been going through much the same for years.it peaked in the last 2..wish i had advice that was sound.other then dont react outta of emotions.or anger.this will get you know where and will only make you feel crappy afterwards and make it more akward than what its becoming.it does sound like you will have to deal with it sooner or later as you expressed..its not going away.wish i had more to offer as is i to am dealing with my own current religious dogma biting at my heels.in a small town less than a mile from my inlaws.small world isnt it.good to know im not alone.

RMorgan
3rd September 2013, 14:13
Thanks everyone for the sound advises...I really appreciate it, from the bottom of my heart.

There´s another important part of this issue that should be taken in consideration; I feel like they are punishing my wife for her lack of belief, you know, giving her a hard time at work and not rewarding her proportionally to her achievements.

My sister in law, who is an ex-christian, told me that her parents used to constantly reward her back then when she had joined their church...You see, they used to give her money and other familiar privileges and then say that it was god who was rewarding her for being faithful and things like that...Honestly, I don´t think they were deliberately manipulating her; They are so brainwashed and indoctrinated that I think they honestly believed that god was acting through them.

So, I really think that if my wife suddenly adhered to their faith, she would be instantly benefited with a better salary, profit participation and other professional advantages as well.

You see, things are very very complicated... I´m sure I can deal with that while still keeping an awesome relationship with my wife, however, I know it´s extremely important to have an overall good relationship with the in-laws as well, but I think I just can´t handle it.

You know, I´m not the kind of man who can pretend...I am a good human being and I have nothing to hide. I can accept them for who they are, but I can´t simply pretend to agree with them like someone suggested. I cultivate honesty and sincerity as qualities of the highest value.

Honestly, after reading your replies, I think I´ll just be who I am and pass the problem to them. They´re the ones who´re going to need to learn to live with me and accept me for who I am. They need to put their christian values to practice, after all...Maybe the best thing to do is to press the "I don´t give a damn" bottom and let things work themselves out on their own.

Raf.

Flash
3rd September 2013, 14:14
My neighbours, the wife is a practicing Muslim, he is an atheist. They took an agreement for their daughter, in primary school, she was raised Muslim, in high school, she is raised agnostic. But it was hard for both of them.

Personnally, I would just ask them to respect me as I do respect them, that I do undestand their principles with the word of Christ, such as love and being good, but do not share their ideas around it. Then I would tell them that if I am not respected as well, everytime they bring the subject up, I will politely leave. And I would do it.

After a while, they will probably stop. Their daughter can help by accepting that you leave and telling her parents that she respect you.

With my Mormon friends, who want to convert me because they love me and want me saved, I pray with them when at their house, we may have a chat about religion, but after 5 minutes we all let go. They know I do not have the same ideas as theirs, I have told them.

Outside their house, they respect me as I am. This is the way we dealt with it.

My hairdresser, who is also a friend, a reborn Christian, will also try to convert me to have me saved, because she loves me. With her, the agreement is that she can speak about her Church and her activities, but does not try to convince me, that if I am condemned, this is my decision and god may have pity. lol She ask me if she could pray for me and I said anytme, no problems. We often go to dinner and have a great time together.

Operator
3rd September 2013, 14:14
Hey Raf…have you tried the “Christ-like life” angle? You practice it, from what I’ve read of your stuff—it shows everywhere.

Be careful with that too ... it may surprisingly backfire !
Sometimes when you remind christian people about what Jesus was all about or even cite his words they will rubber-stamp
you as a 'know it all' or 'what do you know about it, you're not even religious'.

I mentioned the Jehovah's witnesses in my previous post, there is one thing they hate. To meet someone who is not
ignorant on their subject and is able to defuse some of their statements.

P.S. Even Christ himself ended up on the cross (or that's what they want you to believe)

TargeT
3rd September 2013, 14:19
I've been in this situation off and on my whole life, from many different religions.

I've found it's best to just state that "I believe" but am not a fan of organized religions & that all belief should be a very personal thing; though I am not an atheist per-se; if you are I don't see how this tiny deception isn't worth it do smooth the waters with people who seem to obviously want a confrontation.

statements like that make 'them' feel like you are 'one of them' if just a strange version & they seem to leave it alone (for the most part).

sounds like that door is already shut to you however; perhaps you could simply state that you are not comfortable with their line of conversation & would be happy to talk to them about anything else; but if they continue to try to pursue that topic you will have to excuse your self... something very clear like that so they know it's not a topic you are willing to discuss?

Camilo
3rd September 2013, 14:29
I would say that the best way to go, would be for you to tell them up front how you feel, and that you would appreciate they respect you and your believes the same way you respect them and their believes, in order to be able to live in harmony.

Hope everything will work out to the best for all.

boja
3rd September 2013, 14:51
Being an Atheist myself, with my Wife being a Christian (Church of England), I can well understand your position.

I respect ALL other religions, and hope for their respect in return.

Unfortunately, some religious people are extremely fanatical and intolerant of others.

Taking all your circumstances into consideration,
I believe that the best solution to your problem, would be to MOVE A SHORT DISTANCE away.
(Not too far, but just far enough - you decide, maybe a few miles).

Good Luck, Boja.

778 neighbour of some guy
3rd September 2013, 14:54
I really don´t know what to do...You know I´m a very inquisitive and rational person, and it´s really extremely hard for me to keep my mouth shut while practically being obliged to listen to fallacious and nonsensical sermons five days a week.


Oompf, that's quite a conundrum you are in Raf, it can be hard too, I know, my ex girlfriend was very catholic "praying, singing in the choir, confessions, blahdiblah" her parents, mom especially beat me around the ears with how I was a sinner, drinker, smoker, and god forbid, white ( so happy for her she met the NICER me, if she would have known me a few years earlier she would have gotten a heart attack), all of this badgering was very foreign to me, I am a very spiritual person and couldn't care less about what religious or spiritual denomination anyone belonged to, my girl also though they were a bit extreme and we often used to joke about it, but it did have an impact on our relationship and played a part in the end of the relationship, regarding kids, how to raise them, go to church, baptism, and lets not even begin about predestination, abortion and all that other fun stuff etc etc.

This is something I have become very careful about nowadays and will NOT enter a relationship if I can pick up the slightest hint of this ever becoming a problem, so Really man I wish I could be of some assistance to you but I cant, just tread with care, and don't let it ruin your relationship.

Eram
3rd September 2013, 15:05
Hi Raf,

Looks like quite a challenge you are talking about.

When I read your post carefully, there is one thing that really stands out for me:


I really try to change subject whenever they start to annoy me with their mad rants, but they are gradually pushing me harder and harder...If things continue like this, I´m aware that very probably I´ll loose my temper one of these days and tell them some hard truths, but I also know that if I do that, it would really damage our relationship.

It may look like they are driving you mad with their rants, but in fact (if you look closely), you are driving yourself mad with trying to resist their way of behaving.
Obviously, it is very frightening for them that you have another perspective on life and it is probably too much to ask of them at this point in time to give up on their attempts to persuade you.


another thing:


Everything is ok from my side, really. I always respect people. I´m not the kind of guy who goes around preaching my convictions, and I respect them and their faith. I´m totally ok with that. The thing is, they don´t respect me in return.

When I take into account that you (on occasion) can be somewhat intolerant on the forum to people who post theories that are obvious false (from your point of reasoning) :), ..... could it be that you unconsciously are intolerant to their religious beliefs as well?


When I met my girlfriend, it became apparent from the start that I didn't meet her parents expectations in regards to education, career opportunities, social status and what have you.
They have been bugging me with it from day one mostly covertly and sometimes bluntly.
It drove me mad too until I found out exactly why it bothered me so much.
I wanted them to accept me for who I was and I just couldn't accept the fact that they didn't think much of me.
To make it short... I worked on that and at one point, I just gave up on the idea that they had to accept me.
I swear to you that from that day on, they haven't mentioned their objections in any way, or tried to persuade me to start making a career for that matter. I think they still think from their perspective, but somehow, they have come to terms with it since the day that I did.


So what I am proposing here is that you take a close look at what is stirring in you (how you want reality to be) , instead of trying to find a solution externally (trying to get the world to adapt to your wishes).
It can be a difficult thing to do, because you have to come clean with yourself after looking deep into the mirror, but I'm confident that it is something that you have done before and that you can handle an approach like that.

gripreaper
3rd September 2013, 15:17
Well, they love you and their daughter very much and they don't want to see you go to hell forever. Don't you realize how awful that would be to burn in hell forever? Not only is it their sworn duty, but they really believe, if they cannot prothletyze you into becoming a christian and turning your face away from the one true god, who loves you so much, then they have failed, and their whole paradigm by which they live crumbles.

Yes, to them, it's THAT big. They will not let up. There is NO WAY to reason with them, change their tune, or come to any type of truce, or even some degree of mutual respect. These are not options.

Distance is the only option, sorry to say. Put up with it by taking a stiff drink when they are around and go outside, or change the subject to football. Act like you are obsessed with football or something. Or move.

You want the truth? There are no good options.

Carmody
3rd September 2013, 15:43
Well, they love you and their daughter very much and they don't want to see you go to hell forever. Don't you realize how awful that would be to burn in hell forever? Not only is it their sworn duty, but they really believe, if they cannot prothletyze you into becoming a christian and turning your face away from the one true god, who loves you so much, then they have failed, and their whole paradigm by which they live crumbles.

Yes, to them, it's THAT big. They will not let up. There is NO WAY to reason with them, change their tune, or come to any type of truce, or even some degree of mutual respect. These are not options.

Distance is the only option, sorry to say. Put up with it by taking a stiff drink when they are around and go outside, or change the subject to football. Act like you are obsessed with football or something. Or move.

You want the truth? There are no good options.

Yep. You are dealing with the prospect of trying to break a conditioned ego, just by trying to stay on the sidelines. Only they can change themselves. At this point, any resistance on your part, consciously or unconsciously is a direct threat to their ego condition, and will be felt and seen as something that needs to be taken care of, to be dealt with. Obsessively so. right up to the point of ego death, which is such an intense situation for the ego possessed person involved, that it takes that person to the edge of actual life and death as a fully blown immediate struggle (unconsciously so, but projected into their daily reality).

heretogrow
3rd September 2013, 16:39
Hi Raf,
I am not trying to make light of the situation at all in this suggestion I am offering, although I apologize before hand if that seems so. Since you cannot change them you need to find a way to cope when you are in their presence so that it is not so toxic for you. My suggestion may seem a bit disrespectful but this is what I use to help myself with similar situations. I turn it into a game, or I imagine I am watching a sitcom. I remove myself enough to be an observer that doesn't react. Since these type of conversations are often repetitive and predictable, in my mind I will predict, ok now we will get into blah blah blah within 20 seconds followed by blah blah blah. When it happens inside my head I say ding, ding, ding. WE have a winner! In this, I erase my resistance to the message, and actually anticipate it so my body language remains calm, open and collected. Therefore when they read this energy, there is less incentive for them to carry on the attack. I know it could be seen as a bit dishonest and devious on my part. But it serves to diffuse the tension and takes the focus away from the differences in beliefs and the judgment that sometimes automatically follows. Believe it or not, because you are changing the way their words affect you, sooner or later you end up accepting them for who they are and it won't matter as much.

I also really think that as time passes they will not be able to help but see that you are a decent, thoughtful and great son in law, even though they may continue to try to save your soul on a daily basis.

Best of luck! Just be creative!

Fred Steeves
3rd September 2013, 16:56
Hey there Raf. It sounds (to me) like one of those instances where it's time to be straight up with the person. Something like a polite but stern:"You know what? You need to back off now".

Short, to the point, and difficult to misinterpret.

Good luck what ever you decide to do.

Fred

Mark
3rd September 2013, 17:06
Hello, my friend. I feel you.


Honestly, after reading your replies, I think I´ll just be who I am and pass the problem to them. They´re the ones who´re going to need to learn to live with me and accept me for who I am. They need to put their christian values to practice, after all...Maybe the best thing to do is to press the "I don´t give a damn" bottom and let things work themselves out on their own.

I agree with this course of action. If you want to really float their boats tell them that Jahweh is Enlil, who is also Baal, and that they're all extraterrestrial dieties. Even if you don't do the Sitchin thing explaining the history of their faith usually will make folks like that run away faster than anything else. If it gets really heated and you want to appease them a bit after the trauma, explain to them that Jesus was Enki's son reincarnated, and that is the good side because he made humanity, according to the ancient texts. The required proofs are existent outside of the ancient alien metanarrative and can be explained as just so many mythos, if you want to go that route.

Kinda like fighting fire with fire, but it is confronting religiosity with cultural anthropological alternatives. Good luck, me and my mother get into this all the time, she as a very devout Christian and me being who I am.

Funny thing is, she introduced me to Von Danikens work when I was about 10. :)

Maia Gabrial
3rd September 2013, 17:22
What Christians don't realize when they impose their will on another, they are practicing satanism.

Tesla_WTC_Solution
3rd September 2013, 18:17
Hello Raf, I have a very elderly Catholic father-in-law. He is a piece of work.
I moved from eastern US to the US west coast about 6 years ago, and ended up living in the same house with him soon after his wife died.

It didn't end well. We no longer cohabit. That was actually due in part to extreme financial trouble, but we had numerous run-ins.
My spouse says, his dad didn't even try to convert us. I don't remember being invited to Catholic church once.
Instead, the tack he would take was to guilt and dominate us over petty things at home and even sometimes about our son that we couldn't change (and neither could God).

TV seemed to occupy half the pulpit. Much of what he shouted at us came straight from the trusty screen.
There was very little Bible reading or any constructive religious learning in the home.
The TV noise pretty much annihilated any effort to think outside its box.
I can't imagine that Hell could be a lot worse than living with a religious person who is also antisocial.

Those people tend to use their beliefs as a weapon against those over whom they would normally have no authority.
The trouble with religion is that it's more about social hierarchy than the great hereafter.

I don't think you're going to Hell, bro.
I think we're there already LOL

Observer1964
3rd September 2013, 18:38
The problem is not so much religion but psychology, their faith or beliefsystem is their worldview, their mental home and they defend that home against anything. You however have a different worldview, wich to them is as an attack on their worldview, and thus they feel the need to defend by offend the other view, as there can be only one truth.

much like in this clip you cant find a middleground.

8W7cr1h-rH4

even if you succeed, do you really want them or their worldview to collapse?

Anyway, if you do find an answer I would love to hear it, maybe I can use it to save my own marriage
as I am facing similar problems.

RUSirius
3rd September 2013, 18:41
Hey buddy, I'm sure I cant add more to whats been said, what I'll say is this. Sometimes the only course is to stay the course and let things unfold in whatever manner they do. Dealing with family and religious stuff is really tough. What I know about you, is you know who you are and what you're doing, all the best brother. Sorry I couldn't really help.

Cidersomerset
3rd September 2013, 18:57
Touchy subject Raf , its difficult to give advice to the delicate subject of inlaws
I've never been in your position as the several sets of 'outlaws' I have experienced
have all been very nice and religion has not come into it at all.

Although if I get into another relationship and the situation should arise
it might cause some awkward moments when I announce we are all
individual 'gods' in our own reality sharing a common experience
with other 'gods' in this multiverse...LOL....

Deega
3rd September 2013, 20:13
Hi Raf,

Oh!, what a challenge in your hand! I guess you need as much ideas as possible so here is a video on how to deal with annoying person, hope it help!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abADgd_iaY

All the best in this difficult situation.

kenaz
3rd September 2013, 20:26
Have you tried talking politics (just kidding).

Keeping your sense of humor and being the observer rather participant works for me.
There's so much to learn from watching. You might be able to pick up a solution that's been
there all along. Also find an ally who you can joke with. You aren't the only one getting the
treatment (but beware of the gossip). In our family, since my uncle became a bishop, his
own brothers and sisters give a slight bow to him when he enters the room. Crazy. My brother
and I can riff for hours about our family "the catholic mafia." They provide so much material.

enfoldedblue
3rd September 2013, 22:14
Hi,

There is a lot of great advice here. Ultimately from my perspective being yourself is key.

One thing that Eram mentioned was to look inside and see why their behaviour has the ability to stir you so much. Now really on the surface it is pretty obvious...they are not respecting you, they are constantly pressuring you to become something that you are not by nature...etc. However, I personally find it useful to view situations that occur in my life as being there for a reason. Rather than just being a victim floating through random experiences of life I choose to look at things as though I, on some level, created the experience because there is something for me to learn from it. I find this perspective empowering and helps me to remain more objective and to grow from whatever experience I am faced with. In this perspectives people who challenge us, can be viewed as teachers (though not teaching what they think they are teaching...lol), rather than adversaries...a bit like Castaneda's petty tyrants.

Good Luck

Anchor
3rd September 2013, 22:46
I like Gripreapers post and Freds posts.

You are going to have to simply ask them to stop.

If they wont, then you simply need to remain silent.

Take all the energy out of it.

In that silence, will come a solution. ..... (eventually)

All the best to you.

Lifebringer
4th September 2013, 00:05
Tell them that you don't want to upset them, but please respect your choices and free will, as you are a very patriotic person, and believe in separation of church and state, and freedom from and of religion. Tell them that it's starting to get as uncomfortable for you, as apparently it is for them. Then tell them all, that you love the freedom to choose or accept God in your life, at your own time, without constant advertising. Then tell your wife, I love you, but the vows were to obey your husband, and you wish to have freedom from pressure of religion. Tell them with the internet available, and the missing books kept out of the texts, you wish to explore at your own pace, in your own time. If they can't respect that, then make plans to leave them all. If you can afford a one bedroom with a backyard of nature, take your wife there. Don't move too far from her parents where she can't get back and forth to work, but they are definitely in your business, regardless of their concern.

Maunagarjana
4th September 2013, 00:06
You don't want my advice, man, because I'd say tell them to f off if they can't show some respect. Even if they are well intentioned, they are just being rude a-holes. I had a confrontation with a fundamentalist grandmother of mine, and we are barely on speaking terms anymore. At the end of that fiasco, when she and I were trying to patch things up, I told her, "My beliefs are between me and god and they don't involve anybody else." And she seemed to understand and accept that. At the time I said that, I was much more of an agnostic. So for me to say, "my beliefs are between me and god", I was more putting it into terms that she could understand rather than saying what I really believed.

Davidallany
4th September 2013, 00:11
I find it very curious, since myself as an atheist can peacefully coexist with them, but them, with all their christian morals, can´t coexist with my convictions without trying to lecture me all the time...This is driving me mad.They are trying to save your sole from the Abrahamic hell. My advice is to end your silence and do whatever that feels right. If your family choose to be offended then that's their right. Go ahead and speak up you will not regret it in the long run.
Like you respect their beliefs they should respect yours, otherwise it's an abusive relationship. I'd say to hell with that.

Old Snake
4th September 2013, 00:24
Raf,

Been there, quite straight forward tell them that any religious talk is out when they are in your house,just tell them you will not have it. Period
All else goes.
I did this with an uncle of my wife, who was a watchtower type,and they can be persistent.well I told him no religious talk in my house or he could take his hat.
He did accept without any struggle.We talked a lot,even had our loughs.I must add: this man was intelligent!

All the best man,hope they are intelligent too

Old Snake

ghostrider
4th September 2013, 00:29
use their own medicine against them with kindness... ask them respectfully, what would jesus do, who he lecture me or love me ??? we he be my friend no matter what, or would he mash himself on me like a hammer until I caved ... sad , each religion claims if your not with them , you must be of satan or the devil or whatever... the whole thing is rigged, JOIN me or burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??? is that love ??? I would say love me enough to let me find my way , why does one have to decide which teaching to follow, why not just love everybody, be at peace, be kind, be gentle , be patient, be truthful , never bare false witness , slow to speak and quick to listen, if you do that, does it really matter what flag is flying at the house ???

ghostrider
4th September 2013, 00:35
really , christians forget, they can only pray, according to their belief , it's God that must open the door and speak, they can talk till they are blue in face, if the spirit doesn't move, talking is useless ... ears to hear but their don't hear, they just talk, they never listen ... funny we are the ones who listen/meditation ...

Carmen
4th September 2013, 00:36
You could find quotes from the bible that are outrageous! The ones from Leviticus that Bill Posted come to mind, but there are plenty more. Interesting that you have religious fanatics as in-laws and that they have an atheist as a son-I -law!!?

Operator
4th September 2013, 01:37
You could find quotes from the bible that are outrageous! The ones from Leviticus that Bill Posted come to mind, but there are plenty more. Interesting that you have religious fanatics as in-laws and that they have an atheist as a son-I -law!!?

Well, my favorite to cite is this one:

Matthew 6:24

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

So many deeply religious Christians are going for the big money, play in every possible lottery etc. etc. Then when you confront them
with this verse they don't know what to say.

Not that I like to embarrass people ... but sometimes some need to be put in place.

Heartsong
4th September 2013, 02:04
Perhaps they would respond to this angle.

Many if not most Evangelicals are American Patriots in their hearts.

One of the foundations of America is religious freedom. Approach them in all sincerity with the notion that you respect their right to their practices and beliefs because it is the American way. It is the way of your precious wife's parents.

However, because it is the truly American way, please respect your right to practice and believe as you do.

Tell them that to not respect each others beliefs will bring disharmony into the family and nobody wants that.

gripreaper
4th September 2013, 02:09
Oh man, I can see Fred Steeves is going to hell. As a matter of fact, all of you are going to hell! :)

skyflower
4th September 2013, 05:26
You can't argue with them,and you can't debate with them, because they listen at a different frequency from you and they speak from a different frequency than you.

You will have a chance if you speak at their level.

In my case, in the end, I told my mother that the if the GOD almighty is all loving and willing, he would call me back to his presence, in HIS time. I told her to have faith is HIS providence. And we agreed to disagree.

These days we have no trouble communicating. All I have to do is replace "higher self" with "god" or "Jesus".

TigaHawk
4th September 2013, 05:34
Id try chatting with them. Pretty much lay out the 10 commandmets without saying them from the book ( i dont and will not ever steal - i know right from wrong etc). And say you believe that there is a higher power that created everything etc etc and you believe the books have been corrupted and manipulated by man to a point that there is no point reading them - but you are on the same side they are - and you respect it in your own way and will call them by name when you actually meet them. And politel request they respect your views and you appreciate their care/concern.


Tho i am thinking my mistake with the above is assuming they will listen to what you have to say....

Operator
4th September 2013, 09:44
and you believe the books have been corrupted and manipulated by man to a point that there is no point reading them

Unless you want endless debate you should NOT say that! Staunch believers base their faith on the fact that the bible is the word of God ...

Besides, I think it IS interesting to read the bible. Just like examining dis-info ... to find out what the underlying agenda is.
Sometimes you find opposite meanings.

E.g. so many people have 'Jesus on the cross' in their homes. But what it means to me is:


A roman torture device expressing that you should keep your mouth shut and you can't tell the truth or spread a message of love otherwise you will end up like Him.
Empires are able to get to you if they want, even if you are the son of God.

wolf_rt
4th September 2013, 09:56
Engage them in sincere debate, Say that you believe in christs message (if you do), and debate them on the aspects of the bible you don't agree with. (as long as you can keep your cool)
I have found most christians unwilling to engage in sincere debate over the bible.
Numbers 31:7-15 is my favourite verse to debate:

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

This is the only man holy enough to view the face of God? A proponent of rape?


Alternatively just state that you respect their beliefs, and ask them to extend you the same courtesy.

Perhaps your wife could find another job? as it sounds like this is the real sticking point.

Akasha
4th September 2013, 10:42
Just last week my parents informed me that they would continue to pray that god would open my eyes to the truth.
"No need," I replied, "that prayer was answered long ago!"
I've had this pantomime in play my whole life, maybe not with the emotional wedges you are faced with, but never-the-less, I opposed their non-sensical beliefs with truth and reason as best I could at every turn. They'd say the hell word and I'd respond with the L word. It's just what we are here to do imo.

Sgt-Bones
4th September 2013, 11:21
Hi Raf,

I realise this might seem a little extreme, but if it's good enough for the US Department Of Defence then.......................?

Pentagon DOD Briefing - Chemical Lobotomy Virus For "Religious Fanatics":
BIWaY4C-CZ0

Problem solved!?!?!?

... just kidding ;)

Akasha
4th September 2013, 11:34
Hi Raf,

I realise this might seem a little extreme, but if it's good enough for the US Department Of Defence then.......................?

Pentagon DOD Briefing - Chemical Lobotomy Virus For "Religious Fanatics":
BIWaY4C-CZ0

Problem solved!?!?!?

... just kidding ;)

Guaranteed the presenter's brain is "lighting up" just as brightly, but in the left hemisphere, as he "educates" the panel.

Sorry Raf, back to the topic.

RMorgan
4th September 2013, 11:48
Thanks so much, my friends.

I´m really thankful for all the advises.

Well, what can I say...I´m writing this from my wife´s office computer and, right now, I´m being obliged to listen to full volume evangelical music through the ambient sound system...

The music is so terrible, that I´m starting to find a bit of humor in all of that...I´m listening to the lyrics and I feel like I´ll start laughing out loud at any time.

Anyway, I think you´re right. I´ll follow the majority of advises and just be myself and try to be cool...I´m sure this can become a valuable experience if I manage it correctly.

You know, what really bothers me is that they are terrific persons, the in-laws. They are extremely goodhearted, but so gullible and naive. That´s why the brainwashing really stuck...

So, I don´t want to upset them and that´s the big challenge, I mean, being myself (an extremely rational atheist which for them is the same as the devil reincarnated and a bad influence to their daughter) without upsetting them.

Thanks again,

Raf.

SilentFeathers
4th September 2013, 12:04
Hi Raf, I wrote this below a few years ago.....I know somewhat of what your going through and have been there, am there, myself to a certain degree.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__fSKxuZxnO8/S31SEqrfoyI/AAAAAAAAAKU/3IRsxG98SWE/s320/letting+go.jpg

The act of "letting go" of something in our lives is actually an act of acceptance; you may choose to "let go" of something and choose a different path, but, you must accept that you can never honestly deny or physically escape the experience....everything you "let go" of remains a part of you forever.


SilentFeathers 2-18-2010

http://www.silentfeathers.com/apps/blog/show/3083653-letting-go-

Bubu
4th September 2013, 12:08
My son said " their belief is based upon faith and not reason" Meaning they are unreasonable when it comes to this. My parents took care of the church nearby our house since I was younger. They are what we call Hermanas and Hermanos. Helps the priest in church activities. I was probably been in a worst situation than you are because they are my biological parents.

The only advice I can give you is move away. That's what I did.

markpierre
4th September 2013, 12:15
I don't know. It's been a long time since anyone zealously religious or religiously nasty has had the nerve to mess with me.
Kidding. It's because it just stopped happening. I did know their language better than they did.

But I developed a knack of meeting people where they are, if I'm forced to engage in their nonsense.
I just love them and they feel it. That puts them right on the backfoot.

STR
4th September 2013, 12:34
Tell them you believe in energy, structure and consciousness. You can prove all of that. Some might call that energy God and that is fine with you. Then look them straight in the face and simply lay it on the line early. Its fine with me if you call the eternal energy that drives all this God so please allow me the same courtesy. Thanks and be done with it. They will know your stand, you know theirs nuff said.

panopticon
5th September 2013, 01:40
What an exceptional opportunity Raf!

Your last post in this thread better reflected the influence used by those who are part of this cultural sub-group within their controlled environment. Think of it as an ethnographic study into this sub-group and look at how their beliefs shape their behaviour and interactions (both mental and physical). Review how they act on others through the lens of their belief and reflect on how they place themselves within, and act upon, the social fabric that surrounds them. Look at how they exert money, control and power within the domestic setting (you've already voiced this in relation to your sister-in-law, your wife's and your own interactions with them) and the wider society in which they reside.

Placing yourself as an external observer could provide you with an outlet and a way of distancing yourself from the daily barrage.

In other words, it might allow you to get through this period without being confrontational and possibly damaging your relationship with them and possibly your wife.

By the way do this in your head, don't write it down (yet)!

There may even be a book in it for you some time in the future if you can track it over the long term...
-- Pan

Linden
5th September 2013, 03:16
I have had the same situation with my family for over 40 years, and I just remain in my own space during those types of discussions. Sometimes silence speaks volumes. I look underneath all of the words and see who they truly are. Many times people spout things that they might not actually believe. For example, I have a family member that uses racist words and stories but would give anyone, regardless of color or creed, the shirt off of his back to help them. My advice is to look deeper into who they *really* are, and overlook the words being spoken. These are the people who loved and nurtured the woman that you love, and apparently her parents did a darn good job raising her to be a brilliantly authentic person who came into her own self. Just remember to not take anything personally and don't make assumptions.

I have a difficult time with this quite often because I can be quick to ire, but I have to stay in myself and be aware of myself and those people's true hearts during those times. I try to not let my thoughts interfere with my heart, or intention. Also, when my husband and myself made our own family over 42 years ago, we have enjoyed our life together and visit those types of family members only when necessary. Best wishes, and my thoughts are with you.

Carmody
5th September 2013, 03:34
Just tell them you are Buddhist. Buddhism accepts all valid searches for truth. no matter how they may meander, a valid search is a valid search. Therefore all honestly religious persons and any honest investment in said situation, is just fine.

Contrary to Yoda, there is no final arrival -that would ever be here, in this space.

Here..there is only try. Here - is only search. Finality takes place elsewhere. If at all.

grannyfranny100
5th September 2013, 18:27
I guess I am in the minority: get the hell out of there! All this nonsense for a piece of the company business. Isn't that really what this is? How much money will it take to make you compromise your self respect?

These kind of people have been totally indoctrinated and programmed. They will never have respect for other peoples' spiritual boundaries and they have their religious guns aimed at you. And if you have kids, it will be pure hell and the marriage probably can't survive.

Stop making excuses for them. They are not capable of insight and lack critical thinking skills. Don't give them credit for what they lack. Get out, gain your freedom and live somewhere were you can have friends and a lifestyle of your choosing.. Do not communicate with them. Don't give them a forwarding address or phone numbers. Even so they make try to track you down.

If your wife can not accept this decision after growing up in it, then divorce her and let her make the compromises without you. This will be a big mistake unless you really need nightmarish years and years of hard lessons about greed.

P.S. I was reared in a mainstream Christian church and respect Christians who can respect others as fellow travelers on a spiritual journey.

Rich
5th September 2013, 19:19
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56253-How-to-understand-what-a-person-is-saying

I used this the other day and turned a rather heated argument into a peaceful communication because i tried to see what need he was trying to express and when i asked ''are you worried that you won't get the money?'' suddenly the whole dynamic changed because he felt understood and listened to.

I'm no expert at it but just to know the gist of it has helped me a lot.

turiya
5th September 2013, 20:03
I got it! I got the remedy just for you & your situation.

Raf, the best thing to do is to start accumulating a bag full of jokes. I am not kidding! (Pun not intended). Gather all the religious jokes you can on the Jews & Catholics. This will get them laughing. Any time they get into preaching to you, turn the direction of the conversation by telling a joke. "Hey! Have you heard this one?":

Just be certain you don't tell an Evangelic Christian joke.

Examples:

(#1)
One old Jew was praying to God for years and never asking for anything. God became fed up. If you ask for something, something can be done and he can get rid of you! But he was not asking for anything; he was just praying and praying and praying.

So one day God said, "Listen! What do you want? Why don’t you say exactly what you want? I am ready to fulfil it."

The old Jew said, "Is it true that we are your chosen people?"
God said, "Yes, that’s true."
The Jew said, "Ok then, now please choose somebody else for the next three thousand years, just leave the Jews out of it"

(#2)
A group of young men -- all Irish Catholics -- go into a pub. They don't greet Abbie, one of the men already standing at the bar. Paddy, one of the young Irish fellows, asks his friends why they don't greet Abbie.
"Oh, he is a Jew," they say, "and Jews are awful people. They killed our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paddy is very upset to hear this and goes over to Abbie and starts beating him up."Stop, stop!" shouts Abbie. "What are you doing this for?"
"I'm doing it because Jews tortured Jesus and killed him."
"Yes, I know," says Abbie, "but it is nothing to do with me. That happened two thousand years ago."
Paddy gives him another blow and says, "I don't care. I only heard it ten minutes ago!"

(#3)
Back in medieval times, a thoroughly apocryphal story tells us, the Roman Pope was persuaded by some of his more conservative advisers to endure no longer the presence of Jews in the very heart and core of world Christianity. The Jews of Rome were therefore ordered evicted from their homes by a certain date.

To the Jews of Rome this was a great tragedy, for they knew no refuge where they might not expect worse treatment than in Rome. They appealed to the Pope for reconsideration and the Pope, a fair-minded man, suggested a sporting proposition. If the Jews would appoint one of their own number to engage in a debate with him, in pantomime, and if the Jewish representative were to win the debate, the Jews might remain.

The Jewish leaders gathered in the synagog that night and considered the proposition. It seemed the only way out but none of their number wished to volunteer to debate. As the chief rabbi said, "It is impossible to win a debate in which the Pope will be both participant and judge. And how can I face the possibility that the eviction of the Jews will be the result of my specific failure?"

The synagog janitor, who had been quietly sweeping the floor through all this, suddenly spoke up. "I'll debate," he said.
They stared at him in astonishment. "You, a lowly janitor," said the chief rabbi, "debate with the Pope?"
"Someone has to," said the janitor, "and none of you will."

So in default of anyone else, the janitor was made the representative of the Jewish community and was appointed to debate with the Pope.

Then came the great day of the debate. In the square before St. Peter's was the Pope, surrounded by the College of Cardinals in full panoply, with crowds of bishops and other churchly functionaries. Approaching was the Jewish janitor, surrounded by a few of the leaders of the Jewish community in their somber black garb and their long gray beards.

Pope faced janitor, and the debate began.

Gravely, the Pope raised one finger and swept it across the heavens. Without hesitation the janitor pointed firmly toward the ground, and the Pope looked surprised.

Even more gravely, the Pope raised one finger again, keeping it firmly before the janitor's face. With the trace of a sneer, the janitor raised three fingers, holding the pose just as firmly, and a look of deep astonishment crossed the Pope's face.

Then, the Pope thrust his hand deep into his robes and produced an apple. The janitor thereupon opened a paper bag that was sticking out of his hip pocket and took out a flat piece of matzo.

At this, the Pope exclaimed in a loud voice, "The Jewish representative has won the debate. The Jews may remain in Rome."

The janitor backed off, the Jewish leaders surrounded him, and all walked hastily out of the square.

They were no sooner gone than the church leaders clustered about the Pope. "What happened, Your Holiness?" they demanded. "We did not follow the rapid give-and-take."

The Pope passed a shaking hand across his brow. "The man facing me," he said, "was a master at the art of debate. Consider! I began the debate by sweeping my hand across the sky to indicate that God ruled all the universe. Without pausing an instant, that old Jew pointed downward to indicate that nevertheless the Devil had been assigned a dominion of his own below.

"I then raised one finger to indicate there was but one God, assuming I would catch him in the error of his own theology. Yet he instantly raised three fingers to indicate that the one God had three manifestations, a clear acceptance of the docrine of the Trinity.

"Abandoning theology, I produced an apple to indicate that certain blind upholders of so-called science were flying in the face of revealed truth by declaring the Earth was as round as an apple. Instantly, he produced a flat piece of unleavened bread to indicate that the Earth, in accord with revelation, was nevertheless flat. So I granted him victory."

By now, the Jews and the janitor had reached the ghetto. All surrounded the janitor, demanding, "What happened?"

The janitor said indignantly, "The whole thing was nonsense. Listen. First the Pope waves his hand like he's saying 'The Jews must get out of Rome.' So I point downward to say 'Oh yeah? The Jews are going to stay right here.' So he points his finger at me as if to say 'Drop dead, but the Jews are leaving.' So I point three fingers at him to say 'Drop dead three times, the Jews are staying.' So then I see he's taking out his lunch, so I take out mine."

Good luck Raf.

turiya :cool:

Ernie Nemeth
5th September 2013, 21:17
Hi Raf.

I've been through a similar experience but without the lure of money, so that's the catch here, IMO.

In my case, the answer was quite clear. My wife had to stand up to her mother if she was to become whole, gain her autonomy and go on with life. She never did, her mother died and now she is inflicted with rheumatoid arthritis.

I stood up to her parents numerous times, told them I did not appreciate their ministrations, and to please stop harrassing us. It did not work. So we started ignoring them, all the while I was trying to get my wife to stand up to her mother, to take her power back, but to no avail. We moved 2000 miles away to Edmonton. We never responded to letters from her parents until one day about six months later the police showed up at our door. Her mother had phoned the police and told them she feared something might have happened to us. lol

So I wrote her a five page letter, trying to be as diplomatic as possible, telling us to stop prosetilizing to us - we weren't interested. Didn't work. So I wrote another letter telling her what I believed in and that her insistance that I am wrong was an insult and very disrespectful of our wishes. Nope, didn't work either.

After that I gave up and took their preaching without comment but I could not live like that, smiling while cringing...I got divorced some time later. Not only becuase of this, to be sure, but it was the first nail in the coffin.

I guess what I'm saying is that it is your wife that must put a stop to this - but she is already being disrespected and even demeaned by not getting the perks her sister-in-law? enjoys as a devote christain of the correct faith. She must assert herself or you will never be at peace - and that's not right or healthy either.

So its really about the carrot, the money, being the deciding factor, isn't it? You know what I say about that? Nothing. It's obvious. I'm glad I wasn't exposed to that sort of thing but even so, I know what I'd do. The hell with the money. In other circumstances, that is exactly what I did do, I rejected the money. Life's too short and money ain't everything.

I hope you find your way and good luck.

jagman
5th September 2013, 22:06
Hello Raf
You know I like you, even though your an atheist. No one is perfect. lol
I've read threw quite a few of the responses on your thread and all I can
say is wow. My advice would be to search out your commonalities with
your inlaws. You can draw more flys with honey than you can with vinegar.

Mother in law jokes
Adam and Eve were the happiest, and the luckiest, couple in the world, because neither of them had a mother-in-law.

GloriousPoetry
5th September 2013, 22:15
Raf,

Save your energy for better things........MOVE ...........there's a saying in Mexico ....Que viva la suegra or in this case que vivan los suegros pero que vivan lejos!

Carmen
5th September 2013, 22:24
Here is a curly question you could ask your in-laws. Adam and Eve were created and they had two boys. So, okay! Who did Cain and Abel marry? Where did those two ladies come from?

Ernie Nemeth
5th September 2013, 22:29
My friend's favorite is: did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? And if so, why?

lizfrench
5th September 2013, 22:37
Ahhh, strangely my situation is unique also. My husband is an ex Mormon, he and his family were excommunicated for exposing "bishop molestation" hence they are extremely nonconforming religious anything. That said, my parents are extreme Christian, bible belters - educated - but extreme Christians. I am like your wife, I love my mother and accept her position and neutral. My husband has a knack for being a charmer and jokes around with my mother, he looks for ways to insert his views and creates an awkward and sometimes unusual silence that gets me all giggly inside. I love how he dispels all their stupid views and notions by countering their closed views and yet doesn't incite an argument per say he just nudges them and pricks their intellect into awakening, if you will. Otherwise, if your not up to it....move.

Camilo
5th September 2013, 22:45
Write their names on a piece of paper and briefly state the situation, then fold it and place it all the way back it in the freezer.

cloud9
5th September 2013, 23:05
Hi Raf,
I've been reading with interest all answers given, it's very interesting how people (we) react or think we would...

I used to have a female friend, the nicest, sweetest person ever, very smart and generous, etc., that I wanted to do business with and she was a reborn christian. At the beginning when I just met her, I was getting terribly tired of the conversations we had because all of her comments, sentences and examples from the bible and so on. I was terribly tempted many times to stop her and tell her how wrong she was, that the bible is not the word of God and all the rest but she was so nice that I couldn't.

One day I decided to try something different and when she said one the usual comments I just said: yeah, you're right! God is amazing! or Jesus is amazing! God bless you, I even said twice halleluja!
Every time she mentioned the bible I said, yeap! in a nonchalant way but I changed the subject without her noticing it, just asking a casual question just as: oh, by the way, did you guys finally go to dinner?
She invited me to her church many times and I always said that I didn't feel comfortable in church, my relationship with Jesus was so personal and real that I didn't feel the need to go there and she was satisfied with my answer.
We were friends for years until she moved away and we always had the nicest conversations about everything.

If you say to your relatives that they should leave you alone and respect your beliefs they would try even harder to convince you, it becomes their mission in life because they can't have a non believer in their family but if they "see" you are already in their team, there's no need to convince anybody!
I know sometimes it's hard but trust me, it works!

I have another story no related to religion. A year ago, I started working at a place where from day one, my female coworker let me know how terrible it was.
I can't even start telling you how bad it was; she complained all day long, I thought I was going crazy, it was almost unbearable and I used to come home terribly tired, I just wanted to scream: please stop! I can't take it anymore!
I decided I liked the place despite her opinion about it and just kept telling her: yeap! I hear you. It came to a point where I was getting sick of it and there was no way to avoid it, we were stuck together in a room for 8 hours a day!
I tried different approaches but I realized that when I said that maybe it wasn't as she was telling me, she used to say: you'll see, I'm waiting, one day you'll see it, etc.
My final tactic? I started laughing (a bit fake at the beginning) about whatever the situation was she was telling me about and saying: wow, this is a crazy place, you have no other choice other than laugh about it!
To make the story short, I didn't oppose her views somehow agreeing with her but seeing the situation as a funny one and it has worked very well. Nowadays we (yes, both of us) laugh really hard every day about everything that happens in that place and we have a great time! She is a great human being, when she is sick I'm bored to death and I miss her terribly.

So, there you have it: If you oppose your relatives you become the enemy, some body they feel they need to save from hell or the most terrible person around and you already know your marriage is going to suffer greatly. You can avoid putting your wife in the hard position of being in between two irreconcilable worlds.
You are an intelligent man, learn one of the many songs you are hearing and make sure they hear you humming it a couple of times, even get a bible and let it somewhere where they can see it, they will be as happy as they can be, your wife will be very grateful that there's not disagreement in the family and you really respect her parents. You will have the chance to know them better, I'm sure they are the greatest in-laws ever!!! They will love you to pieces!

grannyfranny100
6th September 2013, 06:01
Cloud9, very very amusing. If I did any of your suggestions, it would be totally apparent that I was really being disingenuous and mocking whomever. I prefer to be authentic and respected for who I genuinely am and hang out with those on a similar wavelength. I don't like manipulative game playing but I bet you can pick up babes easily!

Violet
6th September 2013, 07:40
Raf, you see yourself as a tolerant atheist but know that like your parents there are quite some fervent atheists too. They have different strategies but it comes down the same way on the affected parties.

I don't know about other countries so I'll just speak of my own surroundings and how non-religious people here deal with religious people, in story format.

There was a time not too long ago, in which you could see and hear the city making itself up for Sunday prayers. The catechism classes were ardent Bible Study classes. We memorized parts of the gospels and we did comparative analysis on the different gospels (e.g. John versus Matthew) and this was standard procedure in high school for everybody in that high school.

Nobody asked content questions, students were just annoyed with the trouble of bible study in itself. All the rest was normal and accepted. Although the politically inspired forebode of the end of religion started a couple of decades earlier, things quickly turned with a peak that must've been somewhere in the nineties, when more and more people were detaching themselves from God. More and more you could hear people saying that religion only served the people in power (today I ask myself, now that we've done away with it, how have we served ourselves?). I remember watching the Simpsons late nineties and it was an episode about Homer wondering why he couldn't just worship God at home, instead of the hassle of going all the way to church. When we all know that, really, Homer just didn't feel like any of it. But I think America, at that time, was still too conservative to state such things plainly.

It then became a philosophical debate far before it became a scientific debate. Then, after so much scientific achievements and acquired status, surely it would be very embarrassing even to attempt to reconcile it with something...religious. The philosophical period was slightly better than the scientific one because it left room for unearthly logic. At the same time one of its first messages was & is: There is no God.
The scientific era only watches with measured eyes and really how does one measure religious affairs and so religion altogether was done away with and all that was and is religious was from then on regarded with awe.

But in respect of the highly prided democratic and free opinion values other (mostly regarded therefore as underdeveloped) people were still allowed the choice to be dumber, I'm sorry, religious, I meant to say. And that slip of the tongue basically illustrates the current Western European attitude towards religion.
Etienne Vermeersch, a Belgian philosopher, does a great job at violently breaking down religious values and smilingly saying that he also respects people who choose to believe.

The first battle was against Christianity and the Church and Rome and how it is absurd that the (rich) Church should dictate the people, let alone some senile crook in Rome dressed in satin and diamonds.

The next battle was/is against the Muslims in the country. It didn't really start as a religious problem from what I can remember. In the nineties too their was a peak in extreme right wing success with many consecutive marches against immigrants. And that was based purely on their being immigrant. One immigrant recounts that when these marches went through the streets they were so afraid they couldn't leave the house. It was a foul period, I remember at school children picking on the immigrants saying that they stink and they don't wash themselves hence mum and dad won't let me play with you.

And it was only after some terrorist attacks that all people associated with Islam were targeted. A large focus also came on the way immigrants dressed now. Especially veils are a thorn in Belgian eyes. Even more so than African kangas or Jewish kepples. I think it's because the latter communities are smaller.

And so, also for the Muslims it applied that because they freely chose religion they are underdeveloped. And to them too it applies that they have that free choice (be it with some clothing restrictions).

I think next in line are the new Polish workers and they are predominantly Christian, so we'll be going back in time there.

So, you can see a line in how ardent/fervent/fanatic atheists deal with people who (still) are religious. And since they are in power they can freely decide about what freedom should be for everyone ... of course within the boundaries of the internationally agreed upon human rights.

cloud9
6th September 2013, 22:38
I never intended my post to be amusing. This is where the problem is: People really prefer to be right than to keep a good relationship! Most people think that their point of view or belief system is the only valid one and I'm not talking about Raf's relatives one. I'm sorry you are not seeing what I want to convey to Raf and others which is basically how to get along with everybody, make them happy and be happy yourself, it only takes a little bit of effort but the rewards are priceless.
Is being authentic and genuine telling others that they are wrong (in your eyes, your perception, it's just your opinion)? Sure, we can choose a different crowd and just be with the ones that agree with us but life doesn't happen that way. It's not just religion, it's politics, money, sexual orientation, race, etc. you name it.

I was giving my sincere opinion and advice because I've had many people around (as everybody else) with a different way to see the world and I sincerely and honestly am interested in them, not their beliefs, if I wasn't I would have never been able to befriend them. They are very valuable to me, I have enjoyed every single moment we have spent together and I wouldn't change any of it.

I don't need to change others in order to be right, that's absolutely selfish and stupid... I respect their beliefs, that's why I don't want to change them or prove them wrong, I just accept them as they are and let them be, what's wrong about that?

If you had a friend who is continuously telling you how stupid your beliefs are, would you consider this person sincere? Would you want to hang out with him? Would you love him? I'm really baffled about your post.

ulli
6th September 2013, 23:31
I never intended my post to be amusing. This is where the problem is: People really prefer to be right than to keep a good relationship! Most people think that their point of view or belief system is the only valid one and I'm not talking about Raf's relatives one. I'm sorry you are not seeing what I want to convey to Raf and others which is basically how to get along with everybody, make them happy and be happy yourself, it only takes a little bit of effort but the rewards are priceless.
Is being authentic and genuine telling others that they are wrong (in your eyes, your perception, it's just your opinion)? Sure, we can choose a different crowd and just be with the ones that agree with us but life doesn't happen that way. It's not just religion, it's politics, money, sexual orientation, race, etc. you name it.

I was giving my sincere opinion and advice because I've had many people around (as everybody else) with a different way to see the world and I sincerely and honestly am interested in them, not their beliefs, if I wasn't I would have never been able to befriend them. They are very valuable to me, I have enjoyed every single moment we have spent together and I wouldn't change any of it.

I don't need to change others in order to be right, that's absolutely selfish and stupid... I respect their beliefs, that's why I don't want to change them or prove them wrong, I just accept them as they are and let them be, what's wrong about that?

If you had a friend who is continuously telling you how stupid your beliefs are, would you consider this person sincere? Would you want to hang out with him? Would you love him? I'm really baffled about your post.

When you differentiate between respecting people for who they are, and what they believe, you will run into problems, as most people are very much identified with their beliefs.

Even those who are seeking for truth, they are often identified with being seekers. To the point that the search itself becomes their habit, because when they find what they are looking for, they might feel a brief moments euphoria, but then go right back to being seekers, as that was more fun than settling down into a belief.

So we have believers, we have skeptics, and we have agnostics, or seekers. I have known all three types and know very few who have switched roles.
Whether someone is rigid about their beliefs or flexible, whether they seek to impose their clever ways, or seek to get along with everyone....this is all part of their psychological make-up and behavior patterns.

Self inquiry is about discovereing our own behavior patterns, the ones which are the root causes of our endlessly repeating problems. The more extreme our ego stance, the greater the conflicts which life throws our way.

Once we decide to maintain an inner equilibrium, rather than be upset about those we can't change, then there will be tests for a while, to help us develop the calmness muscle, but soon we find ourselves in brand new territory...a new world.

I suggest that the best stance is neither to have fixed ideas, or beliefs, nor just to get along with everybody for the sake of being socially acceptable, but to seek a state of being like wonderment, and discover that life is really quite marvellous and awe inspiring.
Because one day on our death bed we want to be able to look back and appreciate the ride for what it was.

cloud9
7th September 2013, 00:27
I never intended my post to be amusing. This is where the problem is: People really prefer to be right than to keep a good relationship! Most people think that their point of view or belief system is the only valid one and I'm not talking about Raf's relatives one. I'm sorry you are not seeing what I want to convey to Raf and others which is basically how to get along with everybody, make them happy and be happy yourself, it only takes a little bit of effort but the rewards are priceless.
Is being authentic and genuine telling others that they are wrong (in your eyes, your perception, it's just your opinion)? Sure, we can choose a different crowd and just be with the ones that agree with us but life doesn't happen that way. It's not just religion, it's politics, money, sexual orientation, race, etc. you name it.

I was giving my sincere opinion and advice because I've had many people around (as everybody else) with a different way to see the world and I sincerely and honestly am interested in them, not their beliefs, if I wasn't I would have never been able to befriend them. They are very valuable to me, I have enjoyed every single moment we have spent together and I wouldn't change any of it.

I don't need to change others in order to be right, that's absolutely selfish and stupid... I respect their beliefs, that's why I don't want to change them or prove them wrong, I just accept them as they are and let them be, what's wrong about that?

If you had a friend who is continuously telling you how stupid your beliefs are, would you consider this person sincere? Would you want to hang out with him? Would you love him? I'm really baffled about your post.

"When you differentiate between respecting people for who they are, and what they believe, you will run into problems, as most people are very much identified with their beliefs."

I would say that ALL human beings are totally identified with their beliefs, we are all programmed buy them, it's our beliefs what make us see the world or reality the way we do so we can not escape from them.[/FONT]

"Even those who are seeking for truth, they are often identified with being seekers. To the point that the search itself becomes their habit, because when they find what they are looking for, they might feel a brief moments euphoria, but then go right back to being seekers, as that was more fun than settling down into a belief. "

We are ALL seekers, some look for "truth", pleasure, love, knowledge, etc. and the search never ends.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

"So we have believers, we have skeptics, and we have agnostics, or seekers. I have known all three types and know very few who have switched roles.
Whether someone is rigid about their beliefs or flexible, whether they seek to impose their clever ways, or seek to get along with everyone....this is all part of their psychological make-up and behavior patterns. "

If you think about believers as those who believe in a superior being or a savior, they are also skeptics when it comes to the notion that a superior being doesn't exist and skeptics are just at the other end of the spectrum but are also believers (at the opposite end).


Once we decide to maintain an inner equilibrium, rather than be upset about those we can't change, then there will be tests for a while, to help us develop the calmness muscle, but soon we find ourselves in brand new territory...a new world.

"I suggest that the best stance is neither to have fixed ideas, or beliefs, nor just to get along with everybody for the sake of being socially acceptable, but to seek a state of being like wonderment, and discover that life is really quite marvellous and awe inspiring."

There's no way not to have any beliefs, without them we can't exist in this reality.
To get along with everybody is not for the sake of being socially acceptable, is a lifestyle, it's a way to accept everybody as they are, it's being honest and sincere when you say that you (plural) don't discriminate in any way, shape or form because you truly believe we are all equal but at the same time, we have the right to be different.

Because one day on our death bed we want to be able to look back and appreciate the ride for what it was.

Thank you ulli for your post.

To grannyfranny100:

Rereading my first post I realized that I was not able to express what I really wanted to say but I won't change it. English is not my first language and some times it fails me, it was late last night and I didn't want to write a whole novel about how my friends became my friends.

I'm sorry if it came out as describing a manipulative way to treat others but it was never my intention to make it look that way nor I was manipulative with my friends, I was really interested in them and I looked beyond their beliefs I didn't agree with.

My first example is a terrific woman who I admire and respect, I just didn't let her religious beliefs to be in the way and because of that we became very close friends. In my second example, I didn't let my coworker take me to her "dark side" which was the way she perceived the place, all negative and terrible, but I showed her there was a different way to see it; in doing so I never said to her that she was wrong, I started agreeing with her and added a "but" which was the only way she would be able to break her negative program and start to "see" something better. If I hadn't done it this way, we wouldn't be best friends now and we wouldn't be enjoying each other so much.
For some this seems as manipulation, so be it but because of it we are happier than before.

Carmen
7th September 2013, 07:35
Cloud9, don't want to hijake Rafs thread, but I thought your posts were wonderful. I posed your question to my daughter a day or so back. "Do you want the friendship or do you want to be right". It's also one I ask myself! Acceptance of other people causes them to relax and be themselves in our presence. I just realised, it's not off topic. To accept your in-laws Raf, just as they are would disarm them. It would be a wonderful challenge to turn round the relationship.

grannyfranny100
7th September 2013, 12:46
RMorgan, you were the first person I wondered about when I awoke. This thread is filled with many different responses, viewpoints and approaches. Ahh, the wonderful diversity of humankind!!!

Sometimes it takes time to digest it all and gain insight into your current complex dilemma. You are a very thoughtful, caring person and I wish you well in expressing what is the essence of this experience for you.

While you struggle with this, take time to samba and bring your joyful Brasilian heart to the forefront! Puxa vida!!!

cloud9
7th September 2013, 20:49
Cloud9, don't want to hijake Rafs thread, but I thought your posts were wonderful. I posed your question to my daughter a day or so back. "Do you want the friendship or do you want to be right". It's also one I ask myself! Acceptance of other people causes them to relax and be themselves in our presence. I just realised, it's not off topic. To accept your in-laws Raf, just as they are would disarm them. It would be a wonderful challenge to turn round the relationship.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it.