At the Vatican, Up Against the World

[giovonni]

At the Vatican, Up Against the World http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/cmo/lowres/cmon7l.jpg

By FRANK BRUNI
Published: March 26, 2010

Of the many heartbreaking details in the latest round of outrage over child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, one stands out as particularly emblematic: a tidy window into Church leaders’ mindsets; a bracing glimpse of what went wrong.

It traces back to 1975, when the Rev. Sean Brady, now a cardinal at the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, was tending to two boys who had been molested by a priest. By Cardinal Brady’s own admission, he did not report what had happened to the authorities. It was his understanding, he said, that the church would not want that. Instead, the boys — one 14, one just 10, both surely reeling — were forced to sign an oath that such notification would never be made.

It is doubtful that pledge helped them heal, or that he or anyone else in the church thought it might. It certainly did not safeguard other children, many of whom the priest went on to molest.

But it served a purpose and illustrated a priority: to insulate the church from outside interference and condemnation. And it distilled the church’s profound defensiveness toward the secular world, a longstanding posture and a prominent theme in abuse cases that have recently attracted attention.

The church’s fundamental and deliberate separation from secular society — in terms of how it sees its mission, protects itself and interprets human misbehavior — explains much of its leaders’ response, or lack thereof, to the child sexual abuse crisis. Time and again they have sought to police their own ranks in their own ways, due largely to fears of persecution that are embedded in the very genesis of the Church, supported by much if its history and evoked by its signal symbol: the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

There are enemies of the faith, no question. And so there is a powerful impulse to protect it that can override all else — that can lead to Pope Benedict XVI’s edict in 2001, when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and leading the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, that exhorted bishops worldwide to aggressively report abuse cases directly to the Vatican but offered no comparable encouragement for them to report crimes to the police.

There is also a decidedly nonsecular response to wrongdoing that paves the way for second and third chances — and serial abuse. In the secular world, the molestation of a child is labeled a crime, and a heartfelt apology for it doesn’t obviate jail time. In the Catholic Church, it is discussed as a sin, to be confessed and then, by the grace of God, forgiven. Penitence may well supplant punishment.

“There’s the idea that you can reform yourself and be forgiven and that any confession is a true confession if you believe in your heart that you’re not going to do it again,” said David France, author of the 2004 book “Our Fathers: The Secret Life of the Catholic Church in an Age of Scandal.” That is one of the beauties of the faith, and the fury of journalists and prosecutors can come across as an assault on it.

David J. O’Brien, a professor at the University of Dayton who specializes in Catholic history, said that the church had so often perceived itself to be at odds with, and under siege by, the world around it that when it seemingly let down a few defenses with the reforms of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, “There was a funny column by someone that asked: what will we do if we have no enemies? We won’t know who we are because we’ve always defined ourselves as over and against others.”

Professor O’Brien and other Catholic experts noted that in Europe, the continent that harbors the Vatican and has produced every pope of the modern era, there has been a pronounced history of sometimes vicious anti-clericalism, including attacks on the Catholic Church during the French Revolution and threats posed by Communist and totalitarian governments in the early 20th century.

“Certainly, Pope John Paul II had that experience,” said the Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center in Washington, referring to Benedict’s predecessor, under whom the child sexual abuse crisis initially festered. “His experience in Poland was that the secret police would accuse priests of sexual abuse and other crimes just to hassle them.”

Meanwhile, in the United States, the Catholic Church has at times been regarded as a minority religion of immigrants and the working class. When John F. Kennedy ran for president in 1960, his Catholicism was considered a liability.

In addition, Father Reese noted, Catholic teachings about homosexuality, contraception and abortion, along with the church’s insistence on an all-male clergy, put it in ever sharper conflict with the values of many Americans, who — in the thinking of some church leaders — will amplify and exploit any messiness within the church to undermine it.

That fear is suggested by the language that Archbishop Rembert Weakland of Milwaukee used in the 1990s to try to persuade Vatican officials to defrock a priest who had serially abused scores of deaf boys over many years. As reported by The Times last week, Archbishop Weakland made his case by warning, in one letter, that “true scandal in the future seems very possible.“ In a subsequent letter, he articulated the hope to “avoid undue publicity that would be negative toward the church.”

The words of an unsigned editorial last week in L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, capture the church’s suspiciousness of secular critics even more pointedly. The editorial said that Benedict had always handled abuse cases with “transparency, purpose and severity,” and accused the news media of acting “with the clear and ignoble intent of trying to strike Benedict and his closest collaborators at any cost.”

In the German, Irish, American and other abuse cases, the decisions by church officials not to involve the police and courts and not to conduct public, transparent inquiries weren’t simple matters of coddling individual priests and bishops or blunt acts of criminal evasion. They were motivated by an array of factors, chief among them a belief that handing secular critics ammunition to be used against the church would jeopardize its outstanding work.

“For the whole life of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, they have dealt with this question of scandal as if it were a sin in and of itself,” Mr. France said. “You can go back to the year 400 and see writings in the Catholic magisterium about avoiding scandal.”

Partly because of that, and partly because of its resistance to yielding to secular expectations, the church has not made gestures that a corporation or government in its embattled situation would feel compelled to make. Cardinal Brady has not been stripped of his leadership position. And in a public letter of apology to the people of Ireland, the pope did not call for, or specify, disciplinary action against any of the many church leaders who covered up an epidemic of abuse there.

But when an institution is girded so thoroughly against threats from without, can it address and remedy the threats from within? The persistence of the child sexual abuse crisis, intensifying once again, suggests that the church’s defensive posture may in fact be a self-defeating one.

original story link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/weekinreview/28bruni.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all

Frank Bruni is a co-author of “A Gospel of Shame: Children, Sexual Abuse and the Catholic Church,” published in 1993, with a revised edition in 2002. He reported on the Vatican for The Times from 2002 to 2004.

[Carmen]

Interesting and shocking! When the foundation is rotten, be it house or organisation, eventually the whole thing collapses!

Carmen

[THE eXchanger]

time to build right over top of them ;) do as the romans do !!! LOL

[stardustaquarion]

For the Catholic Church to collapse the 3rd world countries need to stop believing...that is not going to happen....The Catholic Church survived the massacres they did in the middle ages in both sides of the Atlantic

I will love it to dissapear but somehow I think they are too powerfull and to rich to fail. It is sad

:wave:

[giovonni]

Thank you Carmen, Susan and stardustaquarion for your comments~
Your combined perspectives sum up extremely well the spiraling decline and situation the Roman Catholic Church finds itself within most developed countries of the Northern Hemisphere. Unfortunately, it appears two thirds of the church's supposed worldwide membership (est over a billion), reside in the under developed countries of both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. One can only imagine what the smell of rottenness will be like> when it hits the fan within those regions.
:flame:

[Samarkis]

time to build right over top of them ;) do as the romans do !!! LOL

Dear Giovanni...........I thank you for posting.........it is time for EVERY vestige of Humanity to do a deep introspective look into what their actions cause............................

Susan...........The time is now that Divine Feminine is Rising and therefore truth and knowledge is coming to the front....Again Ian Lungold's word's ring clear..........."Time of Ethics rise up over society and then Ethics falls on top as a book slamming down....."

We are soon moving into the time of Galactic Co-Creationism......Intend, Dream, Wish the reality you'd like HUmanity to share...........: )

In Light!!!

[Carmen]

I like what you wrote Samarkis. The Sacred Feminine is indeed rising and shaking the foundations of the Old World Male dominated bastions. After the chaos, we shall come to balance, with the Sacred Male and the Sacred Female smiling at each other in recognition! With great Love Radiating between them.

Love

Carmen

[Tamara]

time to build right over top of them ;) do as the romans do !!! LOL

LOL - AMEN SISTER!

It's articles like these that I usually tend to ignore as I don't want to give any more of my energy to excreted poo such as the church - note the lower case 'c'.

[giovonni]

I truly have come to believe ~IT~ was truly> Christ's intention through his teachings > that the divine feminine was always included and part of the holy trinty in regards too the Spirit.

[giovonni]

This monk is the founder of the Abby of san giovanni in fiore italy~ my father's ancestral home.

Joachim of Fiore~
He theorized the dawn of a new age, based on his interpretation of verses in the Book of Revelation, in which the hierarchy of the church would be unnecessary and infidels would unite with Christians. The most spiritual Franciscan monks acclaimed him as a prophet.

His theories can be considered millenarian; he believed that history, by analogy with the Trinity, was divided into three fundamental epochs:

The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;
The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;
The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino.
According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days")In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.

Joachim distinguished between the "reign of justice" or of "law", in an imperfect society, and the "reign of freedom" in a perfect society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore

http://www.liv.ac.uk/~spmr02/rings/trinity.html

[rhythm]

Yes this leaves a bad taste in my mouth
and it is easy to close ones eyes and
walk away ... blinkers on ........
and so yes its hard to take all that is being
reveiled... i do belive in my heart
that we have to look at this stuff .. and say
it is ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!... and like is being done here expose it ..
i have a very blessed life.........
but i wont rest till its all out in the open
as unpleasant as that is ... THE TRUTH IS
THE TRUTH ... I ASK FOR IT AND IM GETTING IT ..
Yes the ulitimate truth is we are all one .. and all there is ..
is love ... but for sure this is not shared or known by
all... tho i do trully belive that all will come to know
who they are are .. and begin to live in accordance
with natural law ...(service to others ) not service to self )
as service to others in its true essence.. is service to the one self
so i keep going ..love unconditionaly as i can .. and belive the change
will and must come ... my new moto walk the walk .. end of bla bla ..
love allways rhythmm........

[giovonni]

Thank you all for your comments,

In love and fairness to all the faithful ~ those who have gone forth~
Who attempted to walk in the foot steps of Christ Jesus~ may they be forever blessed~
And to those who have floundered upon that path~ may they find forgiveness and peace~

For we are they and they are us~ and we are all in the One

[giovonni]

Ahhhh~ the blame game!
I believe the pope's got this all wrong :pout::pray::pout:

No one is attacking the faithful members of the church ~ only those within the church that did not protect those faithful members!

Vatican blasts anti-Catholic 'hate' campaign
Apr 6 03:12 PM US/Eastern
By FRANCES D'EMILIO
Associated Press Writer
VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic "hate" campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage.
Vatican Radio broadcast comments by two senior cardinals explaining "the motive for these attacks" on the pope.

"The pope defends life and the family, based on marriage between a man and a woman, in a world in which powerful lobbies would like to impose a completely different" agenda, Spanish Cardinal Julian Herranz, head of the disciplinary commission for Holy See officials, was quoted as saying.

Herranz didn't identify the alleged lobbies, but "defense of life" is Vatican shorthand for anti-abortion efforts.

Also rallying to Benedict's side was Italian Cardinal Giovanni Lajolo, who heads the Vatican City State's governing apparatus.

The pope "has done all that he could have" against sex abuse by clergy of minors, Lajolo said on the radio, decrying what he described as a campaign of "hatred against the Catholic church."

Sex abuse allegations, as well as accusations of cover-ups by diocesan bishops and Vatican officials, have swept across Europe in recent weeks. Benedict has been criticized for not halting the actions of abusive priests when he was a Vatican cardinal and earlier while he was the archbishop of Munich in his native Germany.

The mainland European scandals—in Germany, Italy, Austria, Denmark and Switzerland—are erupting after decades of abuse cases in the United States, Canada, Australia, Ireland and other areas.

In Germany, nearly 2,700 people called the church's sexual abuse hotline in the first three days it was operating, a Catholic church spokesman said Tuesday.

A team of psychologists and other experts have spoken with 394 people so far, ranging from several minutes up to an hour, Trier Diocese spokesman Stephan Kronenburg said.

"Most callers reported cases of sexual abuse," he told The Associated Press.

Benedict has ignored victims' demands that he accept responsibility for what they say is his own personal and institutional responsibility for failing to swiftly kick abusive priests out of the priesthood, or at least keep them away from children.

But he has been protected by a vanguard of senior Vatican prelates who are fending off what they contend is an orchestrated attempt to attack the leader of the world's more than 1 billion Catholics.

The Vatican No. 2 official, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, indicated to reporters who asked him about the pontiff's silence that Benedict was standing firm.

"He's a strong pope, the pope of the Third Millennium," he told reporters shortly after his arrival in Chile on Tuesday.

Bertone, now the Holy See's secretary of state but formerly Benedict's deputy when the future pope, then-called Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, headed the Vatican's morals office, has himself been swept up in the scandals.

During a May 1998 meeting at the Vatican, Bertone told Wisconsin bishops to halt a church trial against an ailing priest who was accused of sexually abusing 200 deaf children, according to a Vatican transcript. The priest died soon afterward.

"It's not true, it's not true! We have documented the opposite," the Italian news agency ANSA quoted Bertone as saying in Chile. "Let's not talk about this topic now, because otherwise we'll be here all day verifying precisely the action taken by me and by his eminence, Cardinal Ratzinger."

On Easter, the most important day in the Catholic faith, the Vatican broke with tradition and began its service in St. Peter's Square with a ringing defense of Benedict delivered by the dean of the College of Cardinals, Angelo Sodano.

In an interview Tuesday in Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Sodano said the church is "certainly" suffering because of pedophile priests but he asserted that "Benedict XVI has apologized several times."

"But it's not Christ's fault if Judas betrayed" him, Sodano said. "It's not a bishop's fault if one of his priests is stained by grave wrongdoing. And certainly the pontiff is not responsible."

Vatican Radio, presenting listeners with some of the most vehement counterattacks yet in the weekslong buildup of scandal revelations, depicted the church as a victim.

"There are those who fear the media campaign of anti-Catholic hatred can degenerate," Vatican Radio said.

It noted anti-Catholic graffiti on walls of a church outside Viterbo, a town near Rome, and reminded listeners that a bishop was attacked by a man during Easter Mass in Muenster, Germany. The bishop fought back with an incense bowl.

The radio likened the recent campaign to the persecution suffered by early Christian martyrs. "The crowds, incited by the slanders of the powerful, would lynch the Christians," the radio said.

In Munich, meanwhile, an independent lawyer hired by the Catholic church wrapped up his investigation of abuse allegations at the southern Ettal monastery.

"The investigation clearly shows a system of abuse that lasted for decades," Thomas Pfister told The Associated Press.

There were some cases of sexual abuse at Ettal but most victims who came forward were physically abused and most cases took place before 1990, Pfister said in a telephone interview.

The lawyer declined to elaborate as his final report will be published next week.
___
original story link;
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ETOFB00&show_article=1
Associated Press Writer Juergen Baetz in Berlin contributed to this report.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[MargueriteBee]

I just hope enough are paying attention and do not leave their children alone with any priest.

Edit: Have any of these offending priest ever been arrested?

[giovonni]

I just hope enough are paying attention and do not leave their children alone with any priest.

Edit: Have any of these offending priest ever been arrested?

Greeting's MargueriteBee,

Yes many have, i am even aware of one that was murdered.
"Sat 8/23/2003 John Geoghan, former priest at the center of Boston archdiocese's sex abuse scandal was killed in in the protective custody unit at at Souza-Baranowski Correction Center, NW of Boston. Geoghan was followed into his cell after lunch by a fellow inmate, Joseph L. Druce, who bound and gagged him before strangling him with a bed sheet, then repeatedly jumped from the bed onto Geoghan's motionless body and beat the defrocked priest with his fists Geoghan died shortly after being taken to Leominster Hospital. Joseph L. Druce, 37, (born Darrin Smiledge) is serving life sentence for strangling a man in 1988 will be charged with murder. He was convicted while in prison of attempting an anthrax scare by sending envelopes of white powder covered in Swastikas to about 30 Jewish lawyers nationwide in 2001. Druce was born Darrin Smiledge but changed his name while in prison. Druce's father, Dana Smiledge, said his son hated Jews, blacks and gays. Massachusetts does not have a death penalty.

Jay R. Feierman, a psychiatrist for 20 years at the Servants of the Paraclete in New Mexico, which treated abusive priests around the country, said 4 of the 750 priests he treated were killed after they left the program. He said, ``their behavior probably contributed to their murder.''

On Jan. 6-7, 2002, The Boston Globe revealed the Archdiocese of Boston shuttled defrocked priest John Geoghan from parish to parish for decades, despite extensive evidence he was sexually abusing children. Geoghan's admissions of molesting children, his lack of concern for his victims and his tendency to blame them was evidence he was not a candidate for rehabilitation. In civil lawsuits, more than 130 people claimed Geoghan sexually abused them as children during his 3 decades as a priest at Boston-area parishes. In September 2002, the archdiocese settled with 86 Geoghan victims for $10 million, after backing out of an earlier settlement of about $30 million. Richard Sipe, a former Benedictine monk and psychiatrist who worked with abuse victims and priest offenders, said Geoghan had been through many treatment programs. ``If anyone had the opportunity for treatment, it's John Geoghan,'' Sipe said.

More than 325 priests of 46,000 American clergy were either dismissed or resigned from their duties the following year.

A report by state Attorney General Thomas Reilly estimated more than 1,000 children were abused by priests in the Boston archdiocese in the last 60 years. The Boston Archdiocese has offered $65 million to settle cases filed by more than 540 alleged victims.
taken from here;
http://karisable.com/catholic.htm
*********************************************
And unfortunately there's much more reported below :(

Note, here are some cases reported from around the world~ From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
officially confirmed> but linked to the original documentated offenders case incidents.
There's lots of info/listed in regards to this subject matter below;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

[lindabaker]

There are good priests and monks and there are not. There are good Catholic people and there are not. Having said that, what I reject is the systemic protection of criminals. Rejecting those protectors does not mean Catholics are supposed to reject the concept of the Christ. Catholics will need to separate their faith from their unquestioned devotion to a system that does not serve their highest good. The Catholics I know are having a very hard time differentiating. I wish them well, and I pray they can see that the Christ energy is not granted to them by any organization. It is personally realized. All we need is Love...

[giovonni]

There are good priests and monks and there are not. There are good Catholic people and there are not. Having said that, what I reject is the systemic protection of criminals. Rejecting those protectors does not mean Catholics are supposed to reject the concept of the Christ. Catholics will need to separate their faith from their unquestioned devotion to a system that does not serve their highest good. The Catholics I know are having a very hard time differentiating. I wish them well, and I pray they can see that the Christ energy is not granted to them by any organization. It is personally realized. All we need is Love...

Greeting's LB
:meeting: So glad to see you here.
Your feelings and sentiments are well taken~
No human needs any orgainization or institution too confirm (bestow) the christ energy upon them

The pope is sadly mistaken :violin:
if he truly believes he can keep his flock
:flock:
by deflecting and redirecting the attention away from himself or the church in taking the full responsibilies in regards to these matters.
A flock can not be protected by a wolf ~ disguised in shepherd's clothing.

It is time for all catholics to finally wake up!

[pyrangello]

I visited the vatican 15 years ago, I had the oportunity to travel there with a catholic priest who is a very good friend of mine and had been there 8 times and also had a masters degree in history. In conversations with my good friend I asked him is it mandatory to attend church to be a good person, he said to me that some people want to go, some people need to go , and that it was my choice on how to maintain my faith in Christ.

There is a capuchin priest here in detroit who is deceased now, Fr. Solanus Casey. My father met Fr. Solanus when he was a little boy. When the late Pope John Paul the second was pope he started the cannonization process of Fr. Solanus as a saint. I can tell you first hand of the Solanus cloth badges I give away to people as my deceased father did that there is so much good that comes from asking for intercession of the holy and yes many times the requests are fulfilled. My buddy's wife had meningitis at 30 yrs old and I told him to put the Fr. Solanus badge on her hospital gown as she was in a coma in the hospital, he did , asked for some divine help and she came out of the coma the next day.

As with any large group of human beings there are flaws, it doesn't make the flaws acceptable but they are correctable. There is an all out assault on christianity at present . The word GOD is on assault it seems like from everyone to strip this from the United States documents and our heritage. The assault on the Vatican may be on the same agenda.

The issues challanging the vatican do need to be corrected but the base line of faith,love, christ , prayer, and goodness need to stand firm and unwaivering as that is it's core.

[Victoria Tintagel]

Hello and good day to you! This is my first posting on the Avalon2 Forum and I agree with pyrangello, about the core of religion being good and sincere. It's through the ages of becoming an institution of power and materialism that the Catholic Church used its influence by burning people at stakes, ruling over indigenous people in North- and South America, proclaiming those hairy barbarians as animials that were allowed to be killed, unless they kissed the cross. Pushing women to birth as much children as possible and wanting money to pay off sins.
I was born in a protestant reformed preacher's family as the oldest daughter of 9 children and learned pretty soon the difference between words and deeds of my father and relatives.
So have these abused children learned the hard way and finally the truth is in the open.........close encounters of the holy ****.....
That's how my dedication to freedom of mind and soul was formed and I hope to find it in this Forum.

[PINEAL-PILOT-IN MERKABAH]

cliff high sees language to suggest the vatican and catholicism being dead in 12 months. its been infiltrated by a nazi (darth ratzinger) and peadophiles. etemenanki has been following the end of the pope and vatican in his temporal astrological work here ... http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/

[giovonni]

Thank you all for post and comments,
the catholic church was (is) founded and based on the life and teachings of Christ Jesus. His 'Word' needs no building nor institution too shelter its truth. Those faithful who have learned-practiced and heeded that constant truth~ need never fear. It is those who have concealed the whole truth within the darkness from the light of day (in Jesus name), who now live in fear. For the veil of unbelief is finally being lifted; We humankind are truly (and have always been) the true intended temples~ dedicated to the God of there is.

[cosmicharmony]

Times are changing and time is aging those aspects of humanity that are no longer needed.

[giovonni]

This just in.....

AP EXCLUSIVE: Future pope stalled pedophile case


By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer – 26 mins ago
LOS ANGELES – The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including "the good of the universal church," according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.

The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican's insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church's doctrinal watchdog office.

The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who pleaded no contest to misdemeanors involving child molestation in 1978.

The Vatican confirmed Friday that it was Ratzinger's signature and said it was a typical form letter used in laicization cases. Attorney Jeffrey Lena said the matter proceeded "expeditiously, not by modern standards, but by those standards at the time," and that the bishop was to guard against further abuse.

Another spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, said the letter showed no attempt at a cover-up. "The then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't cover up the case, but as the letter clearly shows, made clear the need to study the case with more attention, taking into account the good of all involved."

The diocese recommended removing Kiesle (KEEZ'-lee) from the priesthood in 1981, the year Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican office that shared responsibility for disciplining abusive priests.

The case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins. It was two more years before Kiesle was removed; during that time he continued to do volunteer work with children through the church.

In the November 1985 letter, Ratzinger says the arguments for removing Kiesle were of "grave significance" but added that such actions required very careful review and more time. He also urged the bishop to provide Kiesle with "as much paternal care as possible" while awaiting the decision, according to a translation for AP by Professor Thomas Habinek, chairman of the University of Southern California Classics Department.

Lena, the Vatican attorney, said "paternal care" was a way of telling the bishop he was responsible for keeping Kiesle out of trouble. Lena said Kiesle was not accused of any child abuse in the 5 1/2 years it took for the Vatican to act on the laicization.

The future pope also noted that any decision to defrock Kiesle must take into account the "good of the universal church" and the "detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke within the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age." Kiesle was 38 at the time.

Kiesle had been sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.

Cummins, his bishop, told the Vatican that the priest took a leave of absence and met with a therapist and his probation officer during the three years. It's not clear from the file where Kiesle lived during those years, but Cummins mentions temporary assignments in neighboring dioceses that never worked out.

As his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him.

In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers.

"It is my conviction that there would be no scandal if this petition were granted and that as a matter of fact, given the nature of the case, there might be greater scandal to the community if Father Kiesle were allowed to return to the active ministry," Cummins wrote in 1982.

While papers obtained by the AP include only one letter with Ratzinger's signature, correspondence and internal memos from the diocese refer to a letter dated Nov. 17, 1981, from the then-cardinal to the bishop. Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith a week later.

California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case and Cummins discussed the case with officials during a Vatican visit, according to correspondence. At one point, a Vatican official wrote to say the file may have been lost and suggested resubmitting materials.

Diocese officials considered writing Ratzinger again after they received his 1985 response to impress upon him that leaving Kiesle in the ministry would harm the church, Rev. George Mockel wrote in a memo to the Oakland bishop.

"My own reading of this letter is that basically they are going to sit on it until Steve gets quite a bit older," the memo said. "Despite his young age, the particular and unique circumstances of this case would seem to make it a greater scandal if he were not laicized."

As Kiesle's fate was being weighed in Rome, the priest returned to suburban Pinole to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, where he had been associate pastor from 1972-75.

Kiesle was ultimately laicized on Feb. 13, 1987, though the documents do not indicate how or why. They also don't say what role — if any — Ratzinger had in the decision.

Kiesle continued to volunteer with children, according to Maurine Behrend, who worked in the Oakland diocese's youth ministry office in the 1980s. After learning of his history, Behrend complained to church officials. When nothing was done she wrote a letter, which she showed to the AP.

"Obviously nothing has been done after EIGHT months of repeated notifications," she wrote. "How are we supposed to have confidence in the system when nothing is done? A simple phone call to the pastor from the bishop is all it would take."

She eventually confronted Cummins at a confirmation and Kiesle was gone a short time later, Behrend said.

Kiesle, who married after leaving the priesthood, was arrested and charged in 2002 with 13 counts of child molestation from the 1970s. All but two were thrown out after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a California law extending the statute of limitations.

He pleaded no contest in 2004 to a felony for molesting a young girl in his Truckee home in 1995 and was sentenced to six years in state prison.

Kiesle, now 63 and a registered sex offender, lives in a Walnut Creek gated community, according to his address listed on the Megan's Law sex registry. An AP reporter was turned away when attempting to reach him for comment.

William Gagen, an attorney who represented Kiesle in 2002, did not return a call for comment.

More than a half-dozen victims reached a settlement in 2005 with the Oakland diocese alleging Kiesle had molested them as young children.

"He admitted molesting many children and bragged that he was the Pied Piper and said he tried to molest every child that sat on his lap," said Lewis VanBlois, an attorney for six Kiesle victims who interviewed the former priest in prison. "When asked how many children he had molested over the years, he said 'tons.'"

Cummins, 82 and now retired, initially told the AP he did not recall writing to Ratzinger about Kiesle, but he remembered when shown the letter with his signature on Friday. He said things had changed over the past quarter-century.

"When he (Ratzinger) took over I think he was following what was the practice of the time, that Pope John Paul was slowing these things down. You didn't just walk out of the priesthood then," Cummins said.

"These things were slow and their idea of thoroughness was a little more than ours. We were in a situation that was hands-on, with personal reaction."

Documents obtained by the AP last week revealed similar instances of Vatican stalling in cases involving two Arizona clergy.

In one case, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.

In the second, the bishop called Msgr. Robert Trupia a "major risk factor" in a letter to Ratzinger. There is no indication in those files that Ratzinger responded.

The Vatican has called the accusations "absolutely groundless" and said the facts were being misrepresented.

___

Associated Press writers Brooke Donald in Oakland, Eric Gorski in Denver, John Mone in San Diego, Raquel Maria Dillon in Los Angeles and Victor L. Simpson in Rome contributed to this report.

story linked here;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100410/ap_on_re_us/us_pope_church_abuse

[shybastid]

Hi Tint and welcome aboard. When I was between 8 and 10 I was molested by a priest in Cleveland Ohio twice.(He fondeled me outside of my pants,second time he tryed to go IN my pants) I did'nt even remember until I saw a commercial on TV in California from an attorney sueing under a class action suit about 5 years ago.(I'm 54) I pointed at the TV and said to my wife "HEY I was Fricken molested I was Fricken molested" At that point, I reflashed on how "dirty" I felt because I remember'd what he did, and I thought my dad would yell at me and I'd get in trouble for telling on the priest. I guess I blacked it out for years.(Blacked it out or just forgotabout it?) I'm not a Catholic anymore,but not because of that. The innocents that is taken from a child from a "man of trust" is incomprehensible to me.
I'm pretty much a normal person. Was I effected? I have more doubts now thats for sure. I never even remember'd for 42 years? I know and remember EXACTLY the room and building and where it happened now. I even called my Dad to tell him what happened about 4 years ago.
Sorry this is poorly written. I'm actually getting a wierd anxiety attack for writing this. I feel like I'm betraying the Church. Talk about a GUILT religion huh? Sonsofbitches molested ME and I feel guilty for telling the truth. Angry,Hurt...Ummm I have NO compassion for that guy
Fricken wierdo. I DO remember running away from him the second time. I had a funny feeling in my stomach for a month not knowing who to talk to. How do you rat on a PRIEST? To WHO?

[shybastid]

Oh....AND I was in the middle of confession. THAT's when he told me how many Our Fathers and Hail Marys I had to do. He hugged and GROPED me at the same time. The first time, I think I thought it was my imagination(kinda I was in denial)....... Second time I bolted. With that "I did something wrong" feeling. HE DID wrong not ME .. Yeah I watch it on the News and go "Basterds."

[lindabaker]

Hey, shybastid, my thoughts are with you. Eight to ten years old is a very young age to have experienced this. No wonder you pushed it out of your mind. Clearing it out is painful, and I suggest you work through it with some help. There's no shame in that: you were the victim and don't for a moment blame yourself for hiding it in your subconscious mind. Sending you healing prayers...love, peace to you and your family.

[shybastid]

Thank you Linda.. Can you believe it? I got Molested by a PRIEST and forgot for 40 years? Maybe I AM damaged.
It was a very strange awakening. I was SO mad when I remember'd. Not mad enough to hire a lawyer to sue for damages tho.
How weird would THAT be? Sheesh.. I'm 54.... What? Am I going to cry in a court room and go " Yes, I THINK thats a picture of the priest that groped me" The Priest was already like a 100.
How about the Lawyers advertising on TV? How much class and dignity do THEY have? Should I have called them? Should I have said "YES I REMEMBER, Get Me Money" I was in a daze for about a week that I buryed that memory. I was more mad at my innerself then the priest at that point. How could I forget that? THAT was the bigger question. 40 years?
Thanks for your Prayer. Don't ask me to go to Catholic Church today. Not a good idea.
NO Maybe I SHOULD go to my local Church and discuss it with a Catholic priest. What if he dismisses me? What do I want from that meeting?
I'm sorry? Maybe I do.

[giovonni]

Bless you shybastid,
thank very much for opening up yourself to us here. there nothing i nor anyone else can say to relieve the anguish and pain you must of suffered all these years. i attended a catholic boarding school and was quite aware of these kinds of incidences occuring. it was always ignored or pushed aside. many years ago after these revelations were publicly acknowledge by local church superiors, i heeded a call from within ( prompted by a priest calling from the alter pew); he said that if we (the congregation) felt distrubed- disgusted and disgruntled by these claims and accusations, then we should get up and do something about it. i later contacted that priest and informed him of my interest in his challenge, he seem annoyed and spoke briefly with me, he informed me that he was preparing leave to go on a vacation and did not have the time to talk with me. note, i did find a priest and congregation in assisting me in my pursuit. later, i did begin a vocation within the church. but it did not take long for me to see and realize that the change could not (would not) come from inside the insitution, it had to come from the church's faithful (its members ) too finally say enough of this sickness. the universal catholic church, is (and has acted) very much like a disfunctional family, and it must finally end its deniel. for those of us who choose to leave and walk away, there is truly no righteousness in regards to this latest news release.

[shybastid]

giovanni Thank you for that heartfelt responce. Thats one of the problems. AM I a victom? I did'nt even remember for 40 years. I really did'nt. Will I get closure if I yell at a different Priest? Believe me, I can yell. For what? What the heck? I can only tell you from my heart, this cannot be ignored by the Church. If this ever happened to any of MY children? I would be the mad italien temper'd guy.(BAD) Would I believe my kid?THATS where I'm confused(Would my dad have believed me?) Goes back to Church and Trust. I don't know. What a violation of God,Trust and Innocence.
Really kinda seems Satanic to me. I'm still keeping Jesus Christ as my savior tho... I'm not taking any chances. I'm not that religious either.
I think I'm going to go yell at a priest. And give HIM an act of contrition. I think I am. I got fricking molested and forgot about it for 40 years. That alone is creepy.

Confrontation with Priest or rebury how mad I am and how violated I feel now......... wierd

Writing about this on a "blog" is even wierder.

[shybastid]

My wife asked me how the heck a priest could molest me through a confessional booth. Normally, in the Catholic Church..there are little booths on the side of the church,the priest sits in the middle booth with 2 seperate rooms on each side for the "sinners." Sinner goes into his booth,priest opens a sliding panel in the dark.You can only see priests shadow,and he can only see your shadow.
Thats an FYI for you non catholics. Thats how it normally works. You say your sins,and based on how bad you were,you are given a number of prayers to say,(penents) to be forgiven. You are then obsolved of your sins and can start again.:rolleyes:

THIS Guy made me give him confession in his OFFICE.TWICE! I'm looking away from him while I'm trying to tell him what a "bad" boy I was. The embarressment alone creeped me out..Kneeling in front of this guy sitting in a chair right next to me.
He gave me my penents and THEN started the fricking fondeling. How sick is THAT?
I think I'm going to my church for a confrontation with the local priest. I want to see his reaction.
I know he is not personally responsible....but I think I want to see his approach to this.

I will report back. I think I'm going Monday

[shybastid]

I actually feel better writing this down. It somehow seems to put it in perspective. Thanks Avalon. See? This website has healing powers.
How strong is THAT?

[lindabaker]

Something about my victim remark. There is another angle, if you will. From a higher perspective, you are not a victim. You created this drama, created this "dream" of reality. You and the perpetrator both had separate experiences, separate "dreams" going on at the same time. Thing is, when you were eight or ten, the power of the other guy's "dream" was stronger. His power was used for what I can say is truly evil...no doubt. And that's the nature of things: good (the child) exists, but the other guy's (malicious) version of the drama had more power at that moment, and the non-good showed up. We need to teach children from an early age that other people can steal your "power" (your goodness). Even a supposed representative of spiritual power: a church leader can do this. I sense this priest has passed from this world. May this man's spirit be in a place of healing, never to return to such dark imag-ination. Hmph.

[shybastid]

Well said Linda. REALLY well said. I feel your words. I agree. They feel to my heart directly.
Having said that... I don't want to be known on Avalon as the "doode" that got molested.
"Oh, Shybastid?" He hates chemtrails and Priests.. (whispered) "He was molested ya know".:eek:
I did'nt remember for 40 years.. I don't want to be remembered for that NOW. I hope I contribute more then that.

Peace

[lindabaker]

Don't worry, everybody forgets faster than you could imagine! In fact, we could even delete the posts if you want to do so. That way, nobody could read it a couple of years from now when you don't even think about it any more! LB

[giovonni]

Thank you shybastid and linda~ for expanding on this topic.
I believe the more we examine these issues the faster we all will heal.
there's no doubt in my mind (as linda pointed out), we all create our own drama on this plane.
shybastid, your idea of confronting your local priest is a good start in proceeding in this healing process, but i would also suggest a softer approach.
maybe call the parish rectory and set up a counceling session with the paster; when you get there tell him you story and that you want his advice on how to put it all too rest?
allow him too make the amends~ so to speak. ask him how he deals with all the pressure having to live in the vacuum of this ever expanding scandel? maybe you can help him as well~ in his continuing to serve within his pastoral vocation, by giving him insights into how this behavior affects a child's life through adulthood. if you approach it this way, you might find yourself helping to heal the priest, and that truly would be like walking in the footsetps of the christ jesus. remember your not the victim, you part of the healing solution.


post-note, shybastid if you follow up on my suggestions remember, you have already reconciled with yourself in this matter. no one can give you that but yourself. anything you walk away with in this process ~ you've directed and permitted too occur. if the encounter with the priest is positive or not, doesn't really matter; give yourself the permission to finally let it go. also, in regards to your children, let them know-no matter what- you will always listen to them whenever they need you, allow them that trust- for you owe them and yourself that. be that adult (parent) you needed (as that innocent child did) way back when.
blessing to you my friend~gio

[Swami]

Geoffrey Robertson, a renowned human rights lawyer and United Nations jurist, wants to see Pope Benedict put on trial for allegedly protecting predator priests.

In a Guardian UK piece making its rounds this week in Catholic circles, Robertson demanded the pope be "put in the dock" so that the church might "feel the full weight of international law" over its thousands of pedophilia scandals.

The pope's conduct, he said, "amounted to the criminal offence of aiding and abetting sex with minors," making Benedict a justifiable target for either the International Criminal Court or a British court acting under the legal principal of universal jurisdiction.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0410/judge-calls-prosecution-pope-benedict/

[samvado]

and about time it is !

[K626]

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0410/judge-calls-prosecution-pope-benedict/

It will never happen.

[monique]

K626, yes, it is likely that never happens but the fact of appearing in the press, on television and be subject for discussion is wonderful! Imagine how many people were sexually abused by members of the catholic church (in recent centuries) and suffering in silent because nobody believed them. This facts in public dominion decrease the power of the catholic church. Censorship and secrets are the worsts poisons to humanity. Monique.

[K626]

K626, yes, it is likely that never happens but the fact of appearing in the press, on television and be subject for discussion is wonderful! Imagine how many people were sexually abused by members of the catholic church (in recent centuries) and suffering in silent because nobody believed them. This facts in public dominion decrease the power of the catholic church. Censorship and secrets are the worsts poisons to humanity. Monique.

The CC is being re-positioned on the board as is Islam. There will be a lot of revelations about organised religion, it has simply served its purpose and is going to be replaced.

[rosie]

Richard Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope for 'crimes against humanity'

Two leading atheist campaigners are planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain for 'crimes against humanity'.

Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens - who have both written books promoting atheism - have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.

The Pope was embroiled in new controversy this weekend over a letter he signed arguing that the 'good of the universal church' should be considered against the defrocking of an American priest who committed sex offences against two boys.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265151/Richard-Dawkins-plans-arrest-Pope-crimes-humanity.html#ixzz0knaLlfk8

I was waiting for this. Finally someone is going to try to bring this to the forefront.

[lindabaker]

The turn of the tide will be done on an individual basis. Woman by woman, mother by mother, father by father. No longer will children be subjected to predators. They will stop going to mass. Parents will choose protection of their own, over their fear of being put into some "world down below" (hell) when they die. The reign of fear is nearly over. The man who was Jesus couldn't have possibly imagined what has been done with his teaching. The true spirit of the teachings will help individuals get out of the prison created by these men of the church. A prison that you have to Pay to be in! Imagine that! Their time is over, thank God. Freedom will feel wonderful for these people who wake up. Let us remind them that they reject the men who took over, not the original teacher, and the one true creator. I am glad I lived long enough to see the prison doors opening.

[shybastid]

Ambush the Pope? Are they out of touch? Wrong terminology.

Their is a software called Booleon Phraseology
http://www.ovid.com/site/products/tools/ovid/boolean.jsp?top=2&mid=3&bottom=8&subsection=13
That website is the tame version.


I don't want anything to do with PTB. I just want to tell my local Priest I'm mad. And get his reaction. And wrap it up. Thank you gionanni,J and Linda. I cryed with my kids for a minute.
I made them read our responces to what we wrote.

You guys did good as a friend.

WELL appreciated. Peace.
I'm not into ambushing the Pope for any reason.
(Booleans watching you know)

Not going there even a little.

[monique]

"The CC is being re-positioned on the board as is Islam. There will be a lot of revelations about organised religion, it has simply served its purpose and is going to be replaced."

Hum, very interesting K626. But what could replace the Catholic Church beyond the models of "what to consume, how to live, what to do, etc." that advertising and the media imposes on (to) people?

Thank you very much. Monique.

[giovonni]

Yesterday~sunday april 11th, 2010
i happen to catch a very insightful broadcast program on npr (national public radio) here in washington dc on this threads topic matter;

here's a preview of it and a link (below) to this very engaging and enthraling program with lots of facts and info~

*****link to npr radio program link;
note> hit play show at top of page link to begin~
http://interfaithradio.org/node/1290


Priests and Abuse: A Violation of Trust

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2VtJsx77GVY/SS7p0WyaUFI/AAAAAAAAEqo/tR6FNVjoI4s/s400/PopeBenedictXVI_kids.jpg* The Vatican in Crisis
The sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church has now exploded in Europe and Latin America. Some media stories have even implicated Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, in the cover-up. The Vatican, however, is hunkering down, likening itself to victims of anti-Semitism and lashing out at critics. Jesuit priest Tom Reese explains what's at stake for the Catholic Church.

Thomas Reese, S.J., Senior Fellow of Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University
*********************************************

*A Victim's Story
Begins at 22 min 30 sec
There's one perspective often missing from the priest sex abuse coverage: a victim's insight. The scandal has resurrected painful memories for Northern Virgina resident Becky Ianni, who was molested from ages 9 to 11 by her parish priest. She joins us to name her experience...and her abuser.

Becky Ianni, director of the Virginia chapter of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, or SNAP
Web Extra: Click here to listen to our full interview with Becky Ianni
*********************************************

*The Psychology of Abuse
Begins at 30 min 15 sec
Abusive priests all over the world have been removed from ministry. But where do they go from there? The Saint Luke Institute in Silver Spring, Md. provides psychological treatment for priests and nuns with a range of problems, from alcoholism to sexual disorders. The institute's former president explains why he believes pedophile priests can be successfully treated, and why they must never return to ministry with minors.

The Saint Luke Institute in Silver Spring, MD
Monsignor Stephen J. Rossetti, former president and CEO of the Saint Luke Institute
*********************************************

*Commentary: 'Father Does Not Know Best'
Begins at 42 min 1 sec
When it comes to reforming the Catholic Church, you can’t use the master’s tools to dismantle the master’s house. That's according to feminist theologian Mary Hunt, who argues for a radical overhaul of the Catholic hierarchical structure and a new, horizontal model of church.

Mary E. Hunt, author of "Father Does Not Know Best: How to Fix the Catholic Church," and co-founder of the Women’s Alliance for Theology, Ethics, and Ritual, or WATER

*********************************************

Also included in program~

The Texas School Board: Rewriting History?
Begins at 46 min 10 sec

The Texas school board is making some big changes. In mid-March, they voted for a new curriculum that will alter what teachers must cover and what’s in the textbooks. If approved, the new curriculum will play down the role of Thomas Jefferson, play up the importance of Ronald Reagan, and assert that the founders intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation, among other things. That doesn’t sit well with Susan Jacoby, who worries that this mostly conservative board may be re-writing history.

Note, Thomas Jefferson, who was removed from a list of revolutionaries in the Texas curriculum


*****link to npr radio program link;
http://interfaithradio.org/node/1290

[shybastid]

I reread everybodies posts on this subject.
Thank you everybody.
I'm actually a little shocked how well I articulated what happened. Thats the way it happened. Period.
The "grey' feeling I still have, is about aliens that have been rumored to feel and feed off of fear from the innocent. As a food. I get it. Off topic but relevant to me.
Now I read the Pope is upset that how could anyone have the nerve to combine Pedophiles with Homosexuality, and Priests against Jesus ?
What???? It did'nt happen?
HHHmmmmm Young male boy gets groped by priest. Priest is "special" cuase he represents the Lord.
Religion,Sex and Church..... I know IM not nuts or in denial.
LOL Took me 40 years... but.. nope.. not on me.:cool:

[shybastid]

I GUESS its a start to healing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100418/ap_on_re_eu/eu_malta_pope
I did'nt contact local Parish.. Too much drama.
Time to work on other things.

I'm trying to take a picture of swanny at the helm of his ship.
That'll wrap up disclosure,whether swanny is just a steward on the ship,ufo's,antigravity etc. in one swoop. I have my priorities ya know.:rolleyes:

[giovonni]

Thank you shybastid for contributing and sharing some very heartfelt feelings with us.
i sense you have accomplished much here towards your healing process.
My best to you and your family always~ Gio

The news post you linked above bares repeating...though i feel it does not begin to address the church's role in wrongly allowing this epidemic (of child molestation) to continue. It is quite apparent now, the church's hieratchy were aware of the (broad) extend of this criminal behavior (by some within its clergy) for a long time.

Tearful pope says church will better protect young

By VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press Writer Victor L. Simpson, Associated Press Writer – Sun Apr 18, 3:59 pm ET
VALLETTA, Malta – With tears in his eyes, Pope Benedict XVI made his most personal gesture yet to respond to the clerical sex abuse scandal Sunday, telling victims the church will do everything possible to protect children and bring abusive priests to justice, the Vatican said.

The emotional moment carried no new admissions from the Vatican, which has strongly rejected accusations that efforts to cover up for abusive priests were directed by the church hierarchy for decades. But the pontiff told the men that the church would "implement effective measures" to protect children, the Vatican said, without offering details.

Benedict met for more than a half-hour with eight Maltese men who say they were abused by four priests when they were boys living at a Catholic orphanage. During the meeting in the chapel at the Vatican's embassy here, Benedict expressed his "shame and sorrow" at the pain the men and their families suffered, the Vatican said.

"Everybody was crying," one of the men, Joseph Magro, 38, told Associated Press Television News after the meeting. "I told him my name was Joseph, and he had tears in his eyes."

The visit — which came on the second day of Benedict's two-day trip to this largely Roman Catholic island — marked the first time Benedict had met with abuse victims since the worldwide clerical abuse scandal engulfed the Vatican earlier this year.

"He prayed with them and assured them that the Church is doing, and will continue to do, all in its power to investigate allegations, to bring to justice those responsible for abuse and to implement effective measures designed to safeguard young people in the future," the Vatican statement said.

Victims' advocacy groups have demanded that the Vatican take concrete steps to protect children and remove abusive priests and the bishops who protected them, saying the pope's expressions to date of solidarity and shame were meaningless unless actual action is taken.

The main U.S. victims group, Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, said it was easy for Benedict to make promises about taking action to protect children.

"Not a single adult should feel relieved until strong steps are actually taken, not promised, that will prevent future child sex crimes and cover-ups," said Peter Isely, the group's Midwest director.

Magro said the men, in their 30s and 40s, received a call Sunday morning to come to the embassy and that the pope spent a few minutes with each of them. He said the overall encounter, which lasted about 35 minutes, was "fantastic."

Lawrence Grech, who led efforts to arrange the encounter, said the pope told each of the men: "I am very proud of you for having come forward to tell your story."

Grech said he told the pontiff: "This a one-time opportunity in life ... you have the power to fill the emptiness that I had, someone else took my innocence and my faith."

At the end, they prayed together and the pope gave his blessing, the Vatican said.

"The climate was intense but very serene," said Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi.

The private meeting was confirmed only after it had occurred — as was the case when Benedict met with abuse victims in the United States and Australia in 2008. He returned to Rome late Sunday.

Benedict's overnight trip to Malta — originally scheduled to commemorate the 1,950th anniversary of St. Paul's shipwreck — had been overshadowed by expectations that he would make a strong gesture to repair the damage of the scandal.

Benedict has been accused by victims groups and their lawyers of being part of systematic practice of cover-up by church hierarchy for pedophile priests, in his earlier roles as an archbishop in Germany and later at the helm of the Vatican morals office.

BishopAccountability.org, a U.S.-based website that tracks abuse, called on Benedict to follow up his words with actions.

"The pope must follow the meeting in Malta by accounting fully for his own role in the crisis and by disciplining complicit officials," the group said in a statement. "Otherwise, it will be evident that he was exploiting the goodwill of the survivors in Malta to improve his image."

Benedict made no direct reference to the scandals during a Mass Sunday morning. He told Maltese to cling to their faith despite the temptations of modern society.

"Many voices try to persuade us to put aside our faith in God and his church," he warned.

Video and link here;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100418/ap_on_re_eu/eu_malta_pope

[Steven]

Hello everyone. I don't know if it has been mentionned, the thread is very long, but there are two churches. The one we are talking about on this thread is the institutional church, this one will fall.

The other church is much more subtle. It is not defined by religious tags, but by consciousness, behaviour, attitude. I like to call this church the 'church of the people'. This one will never pass. Even the word 'church' isn't appropriate anymore.

Namaste, Steven

[HORIZONS]

Someone asked me one time if I still went to church and I said no, they said how come? I said because I am the church and church is wherever I am at :-)

[beyondmyctrl]

Someone asked me one time if I still went to church and I said no, they said how come? I said because I am the church and church is wherever I am at :-)

Nice :) I like that !

awesome drummer by the way HORIZONS , I checked your channel :)

[giovonni]

Thank Horizons and Steven for your post and comments,
:yes4:
beyondmyctrl
I agree the term church ~ is becoming quite antiquated when referring to ones faith. instead of say i'm going to church :pray: maybe it might be more meaningful now to say i'm going within my heart :wub: for some spiritual respite and guidence.

[giovonni]

Instead of admitting we (the church heirarchy ) screwed up~ the coverup and blame game continues :(

Catholic Abuse Scandal
Was Munich's Vicar General Forced to Serve as Ratzinger's (the pope) Scapegoat?

During his time as archbishop in Germany, Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, chaired a meeting in which a pedophile priest's living arrangements and therapy were discussed. He must have been familiar with the man's criminal past.
Catholic Church officials assigned full responsibility for the reassignment of a known pedophilic priest to retired vicar general Gerhard Gruber who served as deputy to Joseph Ratzinger when he was archbishop. Gruber is now challenging a Church statement that he "acted on his own authority," a claim he says was never discussed with him.

The emergency plan was hastily assembled in the Archdiocese of Munich and Freising on the evening of March 11, a Thursday. The Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper had exposed the scandal surrounding pedophile priest Peter H., and the affair over sexual abuse in the church was getting dangerously close to the pope.


Peter H., a vicar from the western German city of Essen who had molested boys on several occasions, was sent to Munich in 1980, where he was assigned to work as a pastor again. As a result, he was able to abuse even more boys. The archbishop and chairman of the diocesan council, which approved H.'s appointment, was Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Ratzinger also chaired a meeting on Jan. 15, 1980, in which the pedophile priest's living arrangements and therapy were discussed. He must have been familiar with H.'s criminal past. Because of this, the diocese has, in recent weeks, left no stone unturned in its effort to explain why the current pope could not be held accountable for H.'s continued service in his diocese.

That effort has been supported by documents found in the diocese records office that related to H., and that were signed by someone else at the time: the loyal Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, Ratzinger's deputy during his time as archbishop.

Apparently no one on the crisis team objected to the idea of taking Pope Benedict "out of the firing line" and using Gruber, 81, as a scapegoat instead. On the morning of March 12, while the press office was busy drafting a statement in which Gruber was given the full blame for H.'s appointment to serve as a pastor, and that included Gruber's personal apology, a church official was badgering the retired priest on the phone.

But Gruber, who felt put under pressure, later confided in theologian friends. He told them that he had been emphatically "asked" to assume full responsibility for the affair, and that church officials had promptly faxed him a copy of the statement and instructed him to make any changes he deemed necessary.

'Incorrect Decisions'

According to the statement released by the archdiocese, Ratzinger was partly responsible for making the decision to accept H.'s appointment. "Notwithstanding this decision," however, H. was assigned "by the then vicar general" to assist in pastoral care, without restriction, in a Munich parish. The statement also read: "Gruber assumes full responsibility for the incorrect decisions." A spokesman for the archdiocese later added that Gruber had "acted on his own authority" in the case of Peter H.

Gruber's friends say that the old man was only familiar with parts of the statement, that he was apparently being used as a scapegoat and that he was also under additional emotional pressure. To everyone's surprise, Gruber wrote an open letter in which he qualified the archdiocese's statement, writing that he did not sign any documents over which he had no influence. He also noted that he was "very upset" about the "manner in which the incidents were portrayed" by the archdiocese. "And the phrase 'acted on his own authority' also wasn't discussed with me," he wrote.

The archdiocese was unwilling to comment on the accusations, except to state it continued to believe that the former vicar general had acted on his own authority in the case of Peter H., and that he had admitted to having made mistakes. Gruber has gone on a trip to recuperate from "weeks that have been very stressful for me." His loyalty is greatly appreciated in Munich. Archbishop Reinhard Marx, Gruber writes, has sent him his best wishes and "expressed his appreciation for my 'participation'."

During his time as archbishop in Germany, Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, chaired a meeting in which a pedophile priest's living arrangements and therapy were discussed. He must have been familiar with the man's criminal past.
Catholic Church officials assigned full responsibility for the reassignment of a known pedophilic priest to retired vicar general Gerhard Gruber who served as deputy to Joseph Ratzinger when he was archbishop. Gruber is now challenging a Church statement that he "acted on his own authority," a claim he says was never discussed with him.

The emergency plan was hastily assembled in the Archdiocese of Munich and Freising on the evening of March 11, a Thursday. The Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper had exposed the scandal surrounding pedophile priest Peter H., and the affair over sexual abuse in the church was getting dangerously close to the pope.


Peter H., a vicar from the western German city of Essen who had molested boys on several occasions, was sent to Munich in 1980, where he was assigned to work as a pastor again. As a result, he was able to abuse even more boys. The archbishop and chairman of the diocesan council, which approved H.'s appointment, was Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Ratzinger also chaired a meeting on Jan. 15, 1980, in which the pedophile priest's living arrangements and therapy were discussed. He must have been familiar with H.'s criminal past. Because of this, the diocese has, in recent weeks, left no stone unturned in its effort to explain why the current pope could not be held accountable for H.'s continued service in his diocese.

That effort has been supported by documents found in the diocese records office that related to H., and that were signed by someone else at the time: the loyal Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, Ratzinger's deputy during his time as archbishop.

Apparently no one on the crisis team objected to the idea of taking Pope Benedict "out of the firing line" and using Gruber, 81, as a scapegoat instead. On the morning of March 12, while the press office was busy drafting a statement in which Gruber was given the full blame for H.'s appointment to serve as a pastor, and that included Gruber's personal apology, a church official was badgering the retired priest on the phone.

But Gruber, who felt put under pressure, later confided in theologian friends. He told them that he had been emphatically "asked" to assume full responsibility for the affair, and that church officials had promptly faxed him a copy of the statement and instructed him to make any changes he deemed necessary.

'Incorrect Decisions'


According to the statement released by the archdiocese, Ratzinger was partly responsible for making the decision to accept H.'s appointment. "Notwithstanding this decision," however, H. was assigned "by the then vicar general" to assist in pastoral care, without restriction, in a Munich parish. The statement also read: "Gruber assumes full responsibility for the incorrect decisions." A spokesman for the archdiocese later added that Gruber had "acted on his own authority" in the case of Peter H.

Gruber's friends say that the old man was only familiar with parts of the statement, that he was apparently being used as a scapegoat and that he was also under additional emotional pressure. To everyone's surprise, Gruber wrote an open letter in which he qualified the archdiocese's statement, writing that he did not sign any documents over which he had no influence. He also noted that he was "very upset" about the "manner in which the incidents were portrayed" by the archdiocese. "And the phrase 'acted on his own authority' also wasn't discussed with me," he wrote.

The archdiocese was unwilling to comment on the accusations, except to state it continued to believe that the former vicar general had acted on his own authority in the case of Peter H., and that he had admitted to having made mistakes. Gruber has gone on a trip to recuperate from "weeks that have been very stressful for me." His loyalty is greatly appreciated in Munich. Archbishop Reinhard Marx, Gruber writes, has sent him his best wishes and "expressed his appreciation for my 'participation'."
article link;
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,689761,00.html

[shybastid]

Nice follow up giavonni. Thanks for keeping us updated.

It creeps me out everytime I read about the denial,but this should not go unpunished or unreported.

I guess the churches position is "damage is done,we'll handle it internally,mind your own business,nothing happened,thats old news, lets move on."

Can you imagine anyone in the private sector having these allegations brought against them time and time again? These are the ones brought to our attention. How many unknown victoms are there? For how long? (shaking head)

[morguana]

yes gio, thank you so much for keeping us updated, i long so much for a time where no child is hurt, i can never seem to understand why these things happen, on a head level i can......but never from a heart level. i just hope that all can be taken down bit by bit untill the core is exposed......then the healing can begin for humanity
as above so below
love m

[shybastid]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/04/clergy-abuse-victim-files-suit-against-mahony-mexican-cardinal.html

I think I'm done with this..
I can tell you in the 80's, a restaraunt I was a bartender,wine steward at.. where O.J. Simpson and the Reverend Robert Shuler(Glass Cathedral guy) hung out at.OK Hung out is an exaggeration.. I saw them each eat there more then once.The busboy actually dated Nicolles(OJ's murder'd wife) little sister. BIG Money hung out there.
One night..we're ready to close... we get a call..."stay open,special friends are coming in"
ALL young men studying to go into the priesthood with some priests.
They were VERY effeminate that nite. I did'nt say they were gay(OK they acted like it). It was like a girls nite out.
I did NOT put 2 and 2 toghether that I was molested as a child by a priest. I just thought.. "wow,are they allowed to be gay because they don't have sex with women?" "Is that cool with God?" THAT I remember.
I will not address how big the money was that picked up that tab.
I'm getting past this stuff.
No drama..thought I'd share.
I'll be happy to tell anyone the restaraunt, the background,owners,location. Not here though, I'm not that brave.
I have a hard time when I read new stuff though. Anger,Frustration comes quick.. no more funny feelings in my stomach though. Thats a good thing.

[giovonni]

Those are interesting observations shybastid,
yes there is no doubt (from my own personal observations~ from attending a catholic boarding school and also living within a large catholic monastery) that many gay men often have gravitated too the church. Note i am a hetrosexual male (and took my vow of celibacy very serious), but in fair telling here, i noted over a course of many years, many clergy members having hetrosexual relationships (with women) just as well. The idea of celibacy being placed (required) upon any young religious aspirants is maybe unrealistic (as well as possibly an unnatural condition)? In a monastery (religious) community, this condition (in my opinion) should be maintained and honored due to the living conditions and required religious devotion to vocation. The community would most likely descend into a un-discipline social mess (chaos). But in a church parish setting, to require a man or woman, to practice this lifestyle is foolish and goes aganist the natural purpose and flow of the vocational duties. How can any religious clergy member lead, advise or even counsel members of the congregation~ if they are to young in life (experiences), or also not in touch with the living situations or conditions of the flock?

The bottom line here is~ that pedophlia (child molestation) in these terms and situations ~ can be possibly related to physiological issues and has nothing to do with ones sexuality~ whether being defined in the terms of gay or straight.

my best to all~ giovonni

[shybastid]

ALMOST seems relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzTeLePbB08

[giovonni]

Friday April 23, 2010

Pope named in lawsuit

The Head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, has come under renewed pressure over fresh allegations of abuse.

In an unprecedented move, he and the Vatican have been named in a lawsuit in a US federal court by an alleged victim.

The man’s lawyer wants the Vatican to release confidential documents, not compensation. It is the first time this has been done.

“This is the first case we have brought directly and exclusively against the Vatican and the first case in which there has ever been a demand for this kind of relief against the Vatican,” explained Jeff Anderson, the victim’s lawyer.

The case centres on a letter from the alleged victim written in 1995 to the Vatican. In it, the man claims he was molested over a number of years by the late Father Lawrence Murphy. It is yet another blow to the church as it grapples with these scandals.

Father Federico Lombardi, Head of the Vatican Press Office, hinted the latest scandals could be the work of people with an agenda against the Church.

“The situation has improved. The point is that, as the debate was re-launched in Europe in these last months, this gave, in some ways, spontaneously, some groups which, let’s say, don’t look upon the Church with favour, the occasion to re-open the debate, also in the United States, where actually the question had already been largely treated,” he said.

In Germany, Bishop Walter Mixa has submitted a letter of resignation to the Pope over allegations he beat children in the Augsburg diocese. Further news is set to rock the church with reports that a Bishop in Belgium has resigned.

Copyright © 2010 euronews
story link here;
http://www.euronews.net/2010/04/23/pope-named-in-lawsuit/

[MargueriteBee]

Found this on Rense.com today:

Database of Publicly Accused Priests in the United States

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-M.html

[Snowbird]

Someone asked me one time if I still went to church and I said no, they said how come? I said because I am the church and church is wherever I am at :-)




:clap2:


I couldn't agree more!!

[Snowbird]

Found this on Rense.com today:

Database of Publicly Accused Priests in the United States

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-M.html

That is simply incredible!!! That's 396 in the U.S. alone.

[Snowbird]

Is it not time, after all of these disclosures and lawsuits and accusations, for the parents of the children around the world, to begin to accept the responsibility for the protection of their children?

There is far too much known at this point in time for parents to continue to simply and blindly trust the protection of their children of whatever age, to total strangers within the church...any church...anywhere.

I am not understanding the reason that this parental wakeup call has taken years upon years to reach the very people who claim responsibility for their children and yet, allow and at times force, their children into compromising situations alone without their presence, in a church setting. Why do parents continue to do this? I'm at a loss.

[shybastid]

I was supossed to be in CONFESSION! How the heck would my dad NOT trust that?
Its Confession! Does'nt get any more catholic then that.
My dad is not to blame.
The perpetrater of the crime is my friend.:confused:

Period!! HE did it!

I'm sorry.

I disagree agree with you on this.
When I told my dad about 5 years ago.. He went beserk.. "Nahhhhh.. You Sure? Nahhhhhh"
His fault? Nope.
If you can't trust a priest in confession as a little boy, then religion is a BAD ploy of power and manipulation.
Fricken PEDOPHILE.
How can you blame my Dad?

I think I'm GLAD I forgot about it. I can't blame the church for the mistakes I've made.
"Im a victim. I'm a victim"
It DID happen though. Don't make me swear on a stack of bibles though.
Who ever is holding the bible might try and molest me again. HMMMMmm Maybe THAT"S why I question authority?:eek:

[Snowbird]

I was supossed to be in CONFESSION! How the heck would my dad NOT trust that?
Its Confession! Does'nt get any more catholic then that.
My dad is not to blame.
The perpetrater of the crime is my friend.:confused:

Period!! HE did it!

I'm sorry.

I disagree agree with you on this.
When I told my dad about 5 years ago.. He went beserk.. "Nahhhhh.. You Sure? Nahhhhhh"
His fault? Nope.
If you can't trust a priest in confession as a little boy, then religion is a BAD ploy of power and manipulation.
Fricken PEDOPHILE.
How can you blame my Dad?

I think I'm GLAD I forgot about it. I can't blame the church for the mistakes I've made.
"Im a victim. I'm a victim"
It DID happen though. Don't make me swear on a stack of bibles though.
Who ever is holding the bible might try and molest me again. HMMMMmm Maybe THAT"S why I question authority?:eek:

In no way, shape or form am I pointing a finger at you or your parents or parents of others who have experienced this such a long time ago.

Goodness, when this happened to you, we were still living in a time when clergy could do no wrong in our eyes. We, myself included, were taught to trust and trust we did.

But now, and within the last, oh, five years, there has been SO much that has come to the light. We now know. Parents now know. And, for the sake and the safety of the young in their charge, it is time that they collectively readdress their issues of trust. We can no longer trust like we used to. Yes?

[giovonni]

thank you snowbird and again shybastid for you post and comments,

sinead o'connor's infamous performance on~ america's "live saturaday night" tv show,
in which she condemned war ~ but also took aim at the catholic church in regards to child abuse.
at the time her words were very shocking and controversial, but sadly most relevant in retrospect during these times of awakening.
sinead o'conner's infamous~ saturday night live performance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw8JR1N90o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw8JR1N90o

Friday evening April 23rd, 2010
last night~ i caught ms sinead o'connor on the msnbc's rachel maddow's political commentary tv program here in america~
sinead o'conner's on rachel maddow's show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0UBoJ5HEHA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0UBoJ5HEHA



also another interview from a british broadcast on march 30th, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6oMS-vJsDc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6oMS-vJsDc

[Carmen]

A hard hitting song sung by Christie Moore


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw4gcbjHcSw


"Joni Mitchell's *The Magdalene Laundries lyrics"
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I was an unmarried girl
I'd just turned twenty-seven
When they sent me to the sisters
For the way men looked at me
Branded as a jezebel
I knew I was not bound for Heaven
I'd be cast in shame
Into the Magdalene laundries

Most girls come here pregnant
Some by their own fathers
Bridget got that belly
By her parish priest
We're trying to get things white as snow
All of us woe-begotten-daughters
In the streaming stains
Of the Magdalene laundries

Prostitutes and destitutes
And temptresses like me-
Fallen women-
Sentenced into dreamless drudgery ...
Why do they call this heartless place
Our Lady of Charity?
Oh charity!

These bloodless brides of Jesus
If they had just once glimpsed their groom
Then they'd know, and they'd drop the stones
Concealed behind their rosaries
They wilt the grass they walk upon
They leech the light out of a room
They'd like to drive us down the drain
At the Magdalene laundries

Peg O'Connell died today
She was a cheeky girl
A flirt
They just stuffed her in a hole!
Surely to God you'd think at least some bells should ring!
One day I'm going to die here too
And they'll plant me in the dirt
Like some lame bulb
That never blooms come any spring
Not any spring
No, not any spring
Not any spring


Tis time to reveal the lies and to heal the pain!

Carmen

[MargueriteBee]

I was raised in the Mormon church. The 'elders' molested me and my sister. I had forgotten until I attempted to do a past life regression. Instead it was this memory that came up. I didn't grab onto anger, instead I was able to see past it to what was inside that man and it was an injured soul that had been terribly abused itself. This abuse goes back far back into the past. Where/when did it start?

I don't hate the elder, I pity it.

[shybastid]

Margurite? Sorry.
I'm hearing it's not uncommon to blank this stuff out. Who knew? I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy.
I'm really more pissed off about blacking it out then the events themselves. Maybe not.
I'm pretty angry about it. HOW in the **** do you black that stuff out?
I thought I knew myself. I'm less sure now. That's for sure.

Snow? No worries..

[giovonni]

thought i'd add some more interesting and insightful > info into this controversial issue~
giovonni


Five myths about the Catholic sexual abuse scandal
By David Gibson
first printed- Sunday, April 18, 2010 in the Washington Post

VATICAN CITY -- As Benedict XVI prepares to mark the fifth anniversary of his election as pope here on Monday, he is beset by devastating reports about the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests -- and about his own role in the crisis. The reports have prompted sharp condemnations of the pontiff as well as a backlash of media criticism from papal defenders in the Vatican and around the world. Amid the firestorm, myths have emerged that only complicate the search for truth, healing and accountability.

1. Pope Benedict is the primary culprit in the coverup of the abuse scandal.


Between 1981 and 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican's office for doctrinal orthodoxy. A few abuse cases (some from the United States) came before him, and the evidence shows that he did not move with any urgency to defrock priests. In 2001, as the number of cases coming to light worldwide increased, Ratzinger convinced Pope John Paul II to let his office have jurisdiction over all of them. Though the Vatican says church confidentiality did not preclude bishops from reporting crimes to civil authorities, some see Ratzinger's move as an attempt to keep the cases secret.

Nonetheless, there is just one case so far that can be traced directly to Ratzinger's tenure as a bishop, when he was head of the archdiocese of Munich in his native Germany. In that 1980 case, Ratzinger allowed a child abuser into his diocese for psychiatric treatment, and the priest was reassigned to a parish where he went on to abuse more children. It's unclear whether Ratzinger personally signed off on the assignment, but he seems to have acted more or less like most bishops at the time -- giving little oversight to the abuser and doing nothing to remove him from the priesthood. Alas, there is plenty of blame to go around for the church's passivity.

As pope, Benedict has blamed the media for exaggerating the scandals, yet he has moved more aggressively against abusers than John Paul II, his predecessor, who tried to stop defrocking priests altogether and who ignored evidence of the terrible abuses by the late Marcial Maciel Degollado, a well-known Mexican priest who founded the Legionaries of Christ, a secretive order that is under Vatican investigation.

During the 2000s, as Ratzinger came to realize the scope of the abuse, he expedited the defrocking of abusive priests and reopened the Maciel case, which had been closed under John Paul. "We realize that it's necessary to repent," Benedict said in a homily on Thursday. He has still has not punished bishops, however, with the same rigor with which he has targeted abusers.

2. Gay priests are to blame.


Some defenders of the Catholic Church's response to the abuse crisis say that homosexual priests are responsible for the majority of abuses, in part because more than 80 percent of the victims are male. They argue that true pedophiles -- adults who are pathologically attracted to pre-pubescent children -- constitute a small minority of offenders. Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone repeated this gay-pedophile link on Wednesday, and such reasoning was partially behind a 2005 Vatican policy barring gays from seminaries.

Such assertions have numerous flaws. For one thing, research shows that gay men are no more likely to molest children than straight men. (And celibacy doesn't seem to be a determining factor, either.) Yes, 80 percent of the victims were male, but many offenders assaulted children of both sexes. Maciel abused boys and fathered children with several women. Moreover, the abusers had access to boys; an adult male couldn't go on overnight trips with girls or take them away unchaperoned.

Finally, while critics of gay clerics fret that homosexuals dominate the priesthood and endanger children, in fact the ostensible increase in gay priests in recent years has coincided with a sharp decrease in reports of child abuse by clergy.

3. Sexual abuse is more pervasive in the Catholic Church than in other institutions.


Sexual abuse of minors is not the province of the Catholic Church alone. About 4 percent of priests committed an act of sexual abuse on a minor between 1950 and 2002, according to a study being conducted by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. That is roughly consistent with data on many similar professions.

An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret.

"We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told Newsweek. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

Part of the issue is that the Catholic Church is so tightly organized and keeps such meticulous records -- many of which have come to light voluntarily or through court orders -- that it can yield a fairly reliable portrait of its personnel and abuse over the decades. Other institutions, and most other religions, are more decentralized and harder to analyze or prosecute.

Still, it is hardly good news that the church appears to be no different from most other institutions in its incidence of abuse. Shouldn't the Catholic Church and other religious institutions hold to a higher standard?

4. Media outlets are biased against the Catholic Church.


While the Vatican and the pope's champions argue -- often in conspiratorial tones -- that the media is biased against the church, the truth is quite the opposite.

The church and the pope do receive major media attention, and with reason. The pope is a world leader as well as the temporal head of one of the world's most storied religious traditions. There are more than 1.1 billion Catholics on the planet, and the Catholic Church is the largest denomination in the United States, with more than 65 million baptized members. In the media, holidays such as Christmas and Easter tend to be dominated by Catholic images.

The pope also makes news with his pronouncements on a range of topics, and his travels are media events. Pope John Paul II's death and funeral in April 2005 produced wall-to-wall coverage for weeks, generating some of the most favorable press the church has ever had.

The annual survey of religion in the news conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life showed that in 2008 -- the year Benedict traveled to Washington and New York -- coverage of the pope and of the Catholic Church accounted for more than half of all news stories about religion, and the majority were positive or explanatory. You don't hear the church complaining about this kind of attention.

5. The crisis will compel U.S. Catholics to leave the church.


When the initial revelations of widespread sexual abuse by clergy emerged in 2002, many believed that Catholics would abandon the church en masse, or at least send the institution toward insolvency by withholding donations. But then, as now, American Catholics turned out to be an unpredictable lot. Though critical of the bishops and the Vatican, Catholics tend to love their local parishes and priests. And even if they don't heed all church mandates, they don't easily shed all the cultural and sacramental markers of their faith.

A 2007 Pew survey of the religious landscape in America found that among Catholics who had left the church, the abuse crisis ranked low on the list of reasons -- well behind church teachings on homosexuality, the role of women, abortion and contraception. And a 2008 poll by Georgetown University's Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.

Still, Catholic leaders can't be complacent. Some 10 percent of all Americans are former Catholics, and without immigrants, the number of American Catholics would be falling, not growing slightly. In a competitive marketplace, it's not smart to put your customers' loyalty to such a test.

DavidGibson@politicsdaily.com

David Gibson is the author of "The Rule of Benedict: Pope Benedict XVI and his Battle with the Modern World." He covers religion for PoliticsDaily.com.

[HURRITT ENYETO]

My grandmother was sent to one of these monasteries in ireland for being naive and getting pregnant at a young age, she was made to work in the laundry to pay for the upkeep of her baby that she wasnt allowed to see.She said that the so called holy nuns were some of the most wicked and evil people she had ever met and there was nothing godly about them. Just my twopence worth.

[giovonni]

Here's more of the blame game from~ papagate :faint2:

Pope Benedict places blame for sex scandals on Catholic Church

By Nicole Winfield
Wednesday, May 12, 2010

LISBON, PORTUGAL -- Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday blamed the church's own sins for the clerical sex-abuse scandal -- not a campaign mounted by outsiders -- and called for profound purification to end what he called the "greatest persecution" the church has endured.

His strongly worded comments placed responsibility for the crisis squarely on the sins of pedophile priests, repudiating the Vatican's initial response to the scandal, in which it blamed the news media as well as advocates of abortion rights and legalizing same-sex marriage for mounting what it called a campaign against the church and the pope.

Speaking en route to Portugal, Benedict said the Catholic Church has always suffered from problems of its own making but that "today we see it in a truly terrifying way."

"The greatest persecution of the church doesn't come from enemies on the outside but is born from the sins within the church," the pontiff said. "The church needs to profoundly relearn penitence, accept purification, learn forgiveness -- but also justice." The comments marked Benedict's most thorough admission of the church's guilt in creating the scandal. Previously he blamed abusers themselves and, in the case of Ireland, the bishops who failed to stop them.

He was responding to journalists' questions, submitted in advance, aboard the papal plane as he flew to Portugal. His four-day visit will take him from Lisbon to the famed Fatima shrine to Portugal's second city, Porto.

Despite the Vatican's initial defensive response to hundreds of reports of clerical abuse in Europe, Benedict has promised that the church will take action. He has already started cleaning house, accepting the resignations of a few bishops who either admitted they molested youngsters or covered up for priests who did.

But critics say he has not done nearly enough to repair the damage or protect children in the future. Some have noted that while Benedict has accepted some bishops' resignations, no bishop has been actively punished or defrocked, even those who admitted to molestation.

"Many are tiring of hearing about his 'strong comments.' They want to see strong action," said David Clohessy, director of the main U.S. victims group, the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests.

Church bells rang out as the pontiff proceeded through Lisbon from the airport in his popemobile. Several thousand people lined the streets on a rainy day, some shouting "Viva o Papa!" Some stretches of the route, however, were thinly attended.

In his airport remarks, Benedict criticized Portugal's 2007 law allowing abortion, saying officials must give "essential consideration" to issues that affect human life.

-- Associated Press
article link;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/11/AR2010051104949.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[MorningSong]

Hello Gio! I just wanted to comment on the Pope's message given at Fatima that I watched live on the TV, but first here is an article from the Vatican, which in my opinion is NOT AT ALL what the Pope said:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002007.htm

Below, I have highlighted some sentances from the above article.

What was directly translated live over the Italian TV is that "the Third Secret of Fatima has NOT yet been fullfilled... and the worst is yet to come." And at the closing salute, the Pope did not say "he" was looking foreward to celebrating the 100th anniversary in 2017...he mentioned the anniversary but had a very sad look on his face, and my first thought was: he knows he (and many others) aren't going to be there. I found the Pope's told and untold message interesting and revealing, yet the media keep playing down and deafening down the message at all angles.

Peace and Good Will, my friend!


Pope says Mary's message at Fatima still important for humanity
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

FATIMA, Portugal (CNS) -- Celebrating Mass at Fatima, Pope Benedict XVI said the prophetic mission of Mary's apparitions there has not ended and has special relevance for a world still caught in a "cycle of death and terror."

Speaking to a vast crowd at the Portuguese sanctuary, the pope said the message of Fatima was especially relevant at a time of waning belief in the divine and of continuing strife among peoples.

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete," the pope said. From the earliest times, he said, humanity "has succeeded in unleashing a cycle of death and terror, but failed in bringing it to an end."

The German pope celebrated the liturgy May 13, the anniversary of the first in a series of six Marian apparitions to three shepherd children in the village of Fatima in 1917. After arriving in his popemobile, he stood at the altar and looked out on an estimated 500,000 people who held up crosses, icons and the flags of many nations...

When he arrived in Fatima May 12, the pope prayed before a statue of Mary that stands at the site of the apparitions. He paid tribute to his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who was convinced that the "secrets" of Fatima had a personal connection to the assassination attempt made against him May 13, 1981.

At the Mass, Pope Benedict offered a less personalistic perspective on the apparitions and the messages of Fatima....

Fatima's message and mission are not over, the pope said, because the need for penance and conversion in the world continues. He gave thanks that the spiritual movement set in motion by the events at Fatima has spread all over the globe, and he looked ahead to 2017, when the world will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the apparitions.

The pope's remarks reflected his long-held view that the Fatima apparitions did not announce particular apocalyptic events, but a more general succession of trials for the church.

On the first day of his trip to Portugal, speaking to reporters on his plane, the pope suggested that the Fatima prophecy of a time of suffering for the church could refer, in a general way, to the priestly sex abuse crisis. He cautioned, however, against tying the Fatima messages too specifically to particular persons or experiences.

The third secret of Fatima's vision of a "bishop in white" who falls dead after being shot by soldiers was understood by many as referring to Pope John Paul, who was seriously wounded but survived the 1981 shooting.

On his plane, Pope Benedict suggested that the pope in the vision may stand for the whole church, which makes the message of Fatima a kind of permanent challenge.

"The Lord told us that the church will always be suffering in various ways, up to the end of the world. The important point is that the message, the answer of Fatima, is not substantially addressed to particular devotions, but is the fundamental response: permanent conversion, penance, prayer, and the three cardinal virtues: faith, hope and charity," he said....

[giovonni]

Thank You My Friend :yo:
I awoke this morning to a vision and i was prompted to find an image (as i often do) that transcends its emotional impact upon me~

here's what i searched and found

:yes4:

i believe this is what the "papa" sees and knows in his heart
the rebirth of our~Mother Earth

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/Hehlua/Mother_Earth.jpg

[RedeZra]

I just wanted to comment on the Pope's message given at Fatima that I watched live on the TV

What was directly translated live over the Italian TV is that "the Third Secret of Fatima has NOT yet been fullfilled... and the worst is yet to come." And at the closing salute, the Pope did not say "he" was looking foreward to celebrating the 100th anniversary in 2017...he mentioned the anniversary but had a very sad look on his face


for those who need to hear the socalled Third Secret of Fatima from the Pope's own mouth


Cardinal Ratzinger as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

- in an interview published in the 11 November 1984 edition of Jesus Magazine -

was asked whether he had read the text of the Third Secret and why it had not been revealed


Ratzinger acknowledged that he had read the Third Secret and stated in part that the Third Secret involves

* "importance of the novissimi"(end times)

* "dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world."

* "If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational."


Cardinal Ratzinger had personally confirmed to Howard Dee

- former Philippine ambassador to the Vatican -

that the messages of Akita and Fatima are "essentially the same."


that means messages of Apostasy and Apocalypse


did you hear about the dancing sun in Fatima

it was witnessed by tens of thousands


did you hear about the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (http://www.pdtsigns.com/hirosh.html)

they said they lived the message of Fatima (http://www.pdtsigns.com/fatima.html)

[Moxie]

A statistic posted on the previous page cites 4% of priests (of all sects) molest children. That is a conservative figure considering that many (if not most) of molestations are not ever reported (and some not even remembered).

This thread is about the catholic church priests, but the view of molestation has a much larger picture worldwide. It's as though men that are priests are held to a higher standard than the average "joe", a regular human... why is that? Does the average human being have lower levels of ethics or standards than a "holy man" priest?

I once held a job w/county government, 13 women in this office... 30% had been molested/raped by a man and not one of them was reported. What does that say about society?

For a man to enter the clergy, the catholic church (of this thread), seems to me that a vow of celibacy should include becoming a eunich, but oh No, can't have that? Why not??? Do they need their sex drive for anything, anything at all? You want to call that radical?
How about castrating the molester? Then there would be no need for sex offender lists (since they seemingly can't be rehabilitated) and endless data tracking and court backlogs.

The point of this thread seems to be the lack of action to "fix" the problem. Those are my suggestions.

Have a nice day!

[RedeZra]

It's as though men that are priests are held to a higher standard than the average "joe", a regular human... why is that? Does the average human being have lower levels of ethics or standards than a "holy man" priest?



that depends what you think of the Church


if the Church is established by Christ then it serves as His office on Earth

" And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. " - Matthew 16:18

if so we are right to expect sound values and high standards of the men in the Church


but as you see from the bible passage above

there are powers that will try to hijack the Church the ministers and all men and women

surly the henchmen of Hades will infiltrate the Church even tho they can not destroy it



here is a little anecdote about Pope Leo XIII from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael)

Pope Leo XIII was climbing the steps to the altar when he suddenly stopped stared fixedly at something in the air and with a terrible look on his face collapsed to the floor

When asked what had happened he explained that he suddenly heard voices - two voices
one kind and gentle the other guttural and harsh

They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
"I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?"
Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

[RedeZra]

Mary is the Mother of the Church

do you want to see it destroyed

then pick a number and get in line behind Satan

[kriya]

Thank You My Friend :yo:
I awoke this morning to a vision and i was prompted to find an image (as i often do) that transcends its emotional impact upon me~

here's what i searched and found

:yes4:


i believe this is what the "papa" sees and knows in his heart
the rebirth of our~Mother Earth

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/Hehlua/Mother_Earth.jpg

Great image, Gio. Your vision ties in with 2012 (or is that what you meant?) and the idea that the earth is pregnant and about to give birth to a new earth.

Love,

Kriya

[greybeard]

Mary is the Mother of the Church

do you want to see it destroyed

then pick a number and get in line behind Satan

Im not of any religion, nor want to be, but accept that it is easy for me to be critical, its so easy to condemn a church that has lightened many lives because of a few who have brought dis-grace to their calling.
The spiritual message brought to us by Jesus has survived dogma and is still there in essence in the Catholic Church Services.
It would be a great loss to the world if Christian Churches were to disappear and lets face it the Catholic church is the original and Mother Church.

Chris

[giovonni]

:yo:
Thanks to All~ Hurritt Enyeto, Morning Star, RedeZra and Moxie ~ for your post and comments, also RedeZra ~ your articulation in expressing your thoughts and clear thinking was of the superb kind.

Let me first say this thread is not about blame, nor is it about bashing the catholic church, priest (males) or even religion. For me it is about allowing, healing and moving on~ as a confirmed catholic, i took a solemn oath to follow the path of Jesus (Christ) and to obey and uphold the laws and traditions of the roman catholic church. i have always aspired too the first, but have been lacking in the second~ due mainly to the hypocrisy and inconsistencies of the church in practicing what it preached. This lacking by the church and its ongoing leadership, is what i believe allowed this human conditional flaw to manifest develop and continue to perpetuate unchecked. It is quite apparent Jesus~ life teachings ("the Word") and revelations > got pushed aside by the worldly (perpetuating) agenda of the hierarchy of this institution. But that's the rub~ "the Word" was never meant to be institutionalized> it was meant to be consumed > learned > realized > then lived (practiced) by (hopefully) an awoken~ enlightened human race :(

[RedeZra]

Im not of any religion, nor want to be, but accept that it is easy for me to be critical, its so easy to condemn a church that has lightened many lives because of a few who have brought dis-grace to their calling.
The spiritual message brought to us by Jesus has survived dogma and is still there in essence in the Catholic Church Services.
It would be a great loss to the world if Christian Churches were to disappear and lets face it the Catholic church is the original and Mother Church.

Chris


yes what Chris says

perhaps I am a little harsh

but it's irritating to notice how easily people are played by the powers of Hades

the Church is infiltrated by the dominions of darkness from the top down

it should not come as a surprise as it was foretold in the Bible and predicted by the many Marian apparitions afterward


there are still many good and Godly men and women in the Church


all Im saying is don't add fuel to the fire with talks of burning the Mother's Church

[greybeard]

yes what Chris says

perhaps I am a little harsh

but it's irritating to notice how easily people are played by the powers of Hades

the Church is infiltrated by the dominions of darkness from the top down

it should not come as a surprise as it was foretold in the Bible and predicted by the many Marian apparitions afterward


there are still many good and Godly men and women in the Church


all Im saying is don't add fuel to the fire with talks of burning the Mother's Church


Yes RedeZra I agree.
Too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I look forward to the day when we dont need a church or religion of any description, that may or may not happen.
Who really know whats ahead of us?
I certainly dont.
Chris.

[giovonni]

"Align oneself to God's will, and then see what happens!!"

thank you greybread~ an amen too that! :thumb::thumb:

[RedeZra]

This lacking by the church and its ongoing leadership, is what i believe allowed this human conditional flaw to manifest develop and continue to perpetuate unchecked. It is quite apparent Jesus~ life teachings ("the Word") and revelations > got pushed aside by the worldly (perpetuating) agenda of the hierarchy of this institution.

But that's the rub~ "the Word" was never meant to be institutionalized> it was meant to be consumed > learned > realized > then lived (practiced) by (hopefully) an awoken~ enlightened human race :(


tnx Giovanni


one simply cannot explain the workings of the world

by including only human participation

and excluding the spirits of good and bad


For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms - Ephesians 6:12


the Church is inflicted with cancer

the problem is one of bad apples in the basket

not everyone does good

devil is what evil does


of course in Reality only God Is

but that does not help us as long as we are slaves of the senses and captivated by the mind


the Legacy of the Word was not ment to be hidden away between the dusty covers of a Book

it was ment to be communicated in Holy Communion


the Church was ment to be a holy place where Heaven and Earth meet

now it is bedridden with cancer


good men and women ought to pray for the sick

[Menkaure]

Just wanted to add a little because I feel I am uniquely qualified to speak.
My 2 Sisters and I had to endure growing up in a catholic school and I can tell you it's not just the priests that are abusers. The nuns that were in charge of 'teaching' us verbally, physically and emotionally abused us because we were poor and came from a broken home. I won't get into it because no one would read THAT long of a post! However, it's not just the priests OR nuns, it's the entire concept of the 'catholic church' that is flawed, evil and self serving. Power, control and money are the tenants of this 'cult-that-made-it', NOT spirituality or anything resembling God-like service to a fellow human. If you pick any specific point of the catholic church and follow it back with a modicum of logic, you will find at lease one the 'Big Three'. (Power, control, money.) I feel sorry for anyone that has been duped into being 'catholic'.
Strong words??? Not if you see these bottom-feeders with my eyes.

[Firinn]

I found this to be an excellent open debate on whether "The Catholic Church is a Force for Good"

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_NAME=chapter&start=2880&end=4040&sgmt=23171

Compelling arguments... some more than others.

With Love,
Firrin

[Tuza]

I found this to be an excellent open debate on whether "The Catholic Church is a Force for Good"

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_NAME=chapter&start=2880&end=4040&sgmt=23171

Compelling arguments... some more than others.

With Love,
Firrin

Thank you for this link Firrin.

I have always maintained after a lot of research on Vatican City that if we auctioned off everything they had in there we could probably wipe out a lot of poverty in the world, just mho.

[Firinn]

You are most welcome Tuza.

Yes, the wealth of the Vatican is vulgar and should be put to a good purpose... something I believe all true Christians would agree with.

With Love,
Firinn.

[RedeZra]

However, it's not just the priests OR nuns, it's the entire concept of the 'catholic church' that is flawed, evil and self serving. Power, control and money are the tenants of this 'cult-that-made-it', NOT spirituality or anything resembling God-like service to a fellow human. If you pick any specific point of the catholic church and follow it back with a modicum of logic, you will find at lease one the 'Big Three'. (Power, control, money.) I feel sorry for anyone that has been duped into being 'catholic'.



Im sorry to hear about your hardships with some catholic men and women when you were growing up

but to debase the whole Church on account of that

is too simplistic to be taken serious


the Church has a bloody history of figthing paganism

paganism as in human sacrifices

the Celts the Vikings Germanic tribes

the Church has cut down and converted cultures that would not give up paganism


what we now see is the retribution of the pagans

this is the new world order

paganism

human sacrificers

that rose to power through the secret hierarchies outside the Church

and brought down the Republics and the Democracies of the western world

before they infiltrated the Church from the top down


Christ established the Church

so to be against the Church is to be against the Christ


the Church is now infested with pagans

the enemy within growing like a cancer to try to divert and destroy it

the Church cannot yield to every human whim and fashion about what is right or not

it has a standard some principles to uphold tho it has (been) compromised alot

besides the Holy Mass is of spiritual significance

it is partaking in the mystery of the Living Christ





I have always maintained after a lot of research on Vatican City that if we auctioned off everything they had in there we could probably wipe out a lot of poverty in the world, just mho.

don't you think the Governments of the world could end poverty if they wanted to Tuza

that is not in their interest

human sacrifices is what they want for they are pagans

[greybeard]

If we are to believe in reincarnation and karma then we have all been the perpetarator and victim of the most horrendous crimes as part of our spiritual evolution.
Let he who is without sin etc.
Watched a video by Little Grandmother / Wisdom keeper / Shaman which made a lot of sense. Sorry dont have a link
Nothing to be sacred of but the the three great powers will tumble, Money / Government / Religion.
The spiral seen in the sky / videoed /and recently talked of by David Wilcock is a spiral held by evey indigenous tribe since time began. it is a symbol of spiritual power, oneness. The spiral has been seen in the sky over many countries recently.
All this has been foretold by native cultures since time began.
Would seem 2012 is possibly a time of real change and nothing to be feared.
So why worry about the Vatican, Powers that be, Illuminati or any of it?
They have had their day and that day is coming to an end.
Hope this is true but it feels right.
Our part is to be forgiving, loving, kind to all life, including our own no matter what.
Step away from negativity.
Become aware of the energy within and share energy with nature,
Spend time outside becoming aware of the energy coming, for our benefit, from nature.
As a suggestion, Chi Gong is very simple to do and you can really feel the energy doing this.

All will be well.

Chris

[truthseekerdan]

Christ established the Church

so to be against the Church is to be against the Christ


the Church is now infested with pagans

the enemy within growing like a cancer to try to divert and destroy it

the Church cannot yield to every human whim and fashion about what is right or not

it has a standard some principles to uphold tho it has (been) compromised alot

besides the Holy Mass is of spiritual significance

it is partaking in the mystery of the Living Christ[/I]


What is the Church

The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple.

A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 12:11,13,18,27; Col. 1:18; Eph. 5:30)
The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17)

The Temple of God

(1 Cor. 3:16; Eph. 2:21,22; 1 Pet. 2:5).

The Jerusalem From Above or The Heavenly Jerusalem

(Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22). Both of these terms (as well as "temple") illustrate how the Old Testament notions of outward sanctuary have been replaced with the literal dwelling of God in his people.

[bluestflame]

paganism is not human sacrifice , that would be satanism

[RedeZra]

Nothing to be sacred of but the the three great powers will tumble, Money / Government / Religion.

So why worry about the Vatican, Powers that be, Illuminati or any of it?
They have had their day and that day is coming to an end.




where is the world going

into a new world order

the plot and the plan is to control

money governments religions

turn them into instruments to carry out their orders

they have the money they have many Governments and they are strong in the Church

they want to overthrow Christ

for they cannot and will not live up to His standards

rumor is they have enthroned Satan in the Vatican and now they mock the Church

the Great Apostasy


where will these people go when they die

for Heaven's sake they will go to Hell

Hell is as real as one's life on Earth

both are states of mind but it feels very real

this is a world of duality and it is real as long as one is not Realized

so the choice is ours to pick a side or stay lukewarm


how is the end coming and will it be a pleasure for all




paganism is not human sacrifice , that would be satanism


yes you are right

today it is called satanism




What is the Church

A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting.



it is good for the assembly to have an inspirational place where they can assemble

that's why the churches are beautiful buildings with pinnacles pointing to Heaven

do you think Christ is not present at the Holy Mass in the churches

[giovonni]

My thanks to all~ for allowing this thread to expand into a more positive and healing light.

To ~ Menkaure, Firinn, Tusa and bluestflame~ for sharing your experiences and thoughts~

To truthseekerdan, for contributing some very insightful info into the definition and concept of the term 'church' :meeting: .... and of course greybeard (Chris) and RedeZra for expanding upon these issues with heartfelt understanding and clarity.

Much blessing
humbly yours<>gio

[truthseekerdan]

it is good for the assembly to have an inspirational place where they can assemble

that's why the churches are beautiful buildings with pinnacles pointing to Heaven

do you think Christ is not present at the Holy Mass in the churches

RedeZra, if you refer to churches as buildings or temples, that's where the pyramids come into play.
However, it's more to elaborate here since pyramids are not ordinary buildings, and are build in certain energetic places on earth.
If you'd like to find out more what Christ stands for, I recommend you this read here (http://www.myspiritualoasis.org/showthread.php?166-Christ-Consciousness)
A bit long to read, but well worth the time... :thumb:

Love, :wub:

Dan

[RedeZra]

If you'd like to find out more what Christ stands for, I recommend you this read here (http://www.myspiritualoasis.org/showthread.php?166-Christ-Consciousness)
A bit long to read, but well worth the time... :thumb:



lol are you saying I got Christ wrong

[shiva777]

what if the "crucifixion" is just a holographic insert that was used to enslave humanity further....a "cross of fiction"(crucifixion)..the idea that one man sacrificed his life to save us all from our sins and damnation is one powerful inserted belief that perpetuates victim/victimiser..saviour control..guilt.sin,etc...what if the image of Jesus on the cross was used by the controllers to symbolise how they have implanted humans andDNA has been shut down and everytime someone worships jesus on the cross they are in fact empowering man's enslavery...what a great source of power and amusement the controllers get fromwatchingignorant humanity worship their own enslavement....the "crucifiction" implant is being removed...stay tuned to Lisa Renee of energeticsynthesis.com and Ashayana Deanes soon to be released video here and these ideas may not be so outrageous when you learn about the bigger picture

[Decibellistics]

It makes sense that most of the churche's consumers are of the third world

Religion is the people's opiate.
It allows people to become complacent and not have to worry about this world because if they follow the rules they are then able to achieve the kingdom of god.

Why do you think in the inner cities and ghettos of the U.S. you see....pawn shop, liquor store, CHURCH

Getting the poor people in the world effectively puts the majority of mankind into a state of complancency. It makes people not have to care about fixing things in this reality

Chicken hawks....they prey on people!!!!:panda:

[giovonni]

Very interesting concept shiva777

i remember reading years ago "Seth" (via Jane Roberts) explaining in the book "Seth Speaks ~the Eternal Validity Of The Soul" about this and that there was actually three Christ beings :twitch:
i will review the material and comment on it soon~ thanks for the post Shiva;)

[shiva777]

you're welcome...here is an explanation from Ashayana Deane of the "3 Christs" situation...

http://www.magickriver.net/3-Christs.htm

[shiva777]

Nostradamus prophesised the fall of the church

below is just an excerpt...here is the full text
part 1 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-part-1/
part 2 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-part-2/
part 3 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-3/
HOGUE
This prophecy has intrigued many over the centuries since Nostradamus composed it around 1556 for the second serialized publication of his magnum opus, Les Propheties (The Prophecies). The theme follows down the same line of other Catholic prophets who believe the apocalypse begins first from within the most hallowed center of the Holy Church in Rome. (See Last Pope Prophecy.)

The theme of Apostasy taken up here by Nostradamus seems topical in early April 2010, what with a widening web of scandal entrapping the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI. It turns out that hundreds of pedophiles of the cloth and cross across Europe have molested thousands of children. A few of these pedo-priesto-philes may once have been under the protective wing of Archbishop Ratzinger of Munich in decades past before he was made Pope Benedict in 2005. The Vatican denies Ratzinger protected these fallen priests from justice or knew that they were sent back to their parishes after therapy to “do it” to their child charges one more, many more, and more times.

Cardinal Ratzinger paying inculpable papabile is more inappropriate because he was John Paul II’s Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for 24 years before becoming Pope Benedict XVI. The Prefect used to be called “The Grand Inquisitor.” Inquisition — the act of inquiring into a matter; an investigation — is EXACTLY about delving into the crimes of the Church’s child-fornicating straying flock of priests from 1981 through 2005. He knew what was going on, in complete detail. He knows what’s going on between priests and their victims right now. To say he’s not responsible as the pope’s cop for 24 years, then God’s Vicar of Christ on earth since 2005 reeks of sham. His currently dismissive and derogatory official responses to these questions of his oversight in the matter of priests and their child victims as idle gossip mongering reflect meanness and a lack of compassion.

Catholic seers in the past thousand years have foreseen an apostasy for the Church in our times: a falling away from faith, not only for lay believers but also a degeneration and straying from the teachings of Jesus by priesthood and pope in Rome. A state of apostasy is phase one of the Catholic version of the Christian apocalypse. I describe this variant apocalypse in detail here: see Apostasy.

Nostradamus is one of those Catholic seers. He takes up the Apostasy theme in Century 6 Quatrain 66:

Au fondement de la nouuelle secte,
Seront les oz du grand Romain trouués,
Sepulchre en marbre apparoistra couuerte,
Terre trembler en Auril, mal enfouez.

At the founding of a new sect,
The bones of the great Roman will be found,
The sepulcher covered by marble will appear,
The earth trembles in April, badly buried.

I wrote the following interpretation published in 1997 in Nostradamus: The Complete Prophecies:

***

Nostradamus dates the appearance of a new sect to correspond with the discovery of St. Peter’s authentic tomb.

The Roman is Saint Peter, whose bones, Nostradamus tells us, will be found beneath the Vatican at the time of a cataclysm. We cannot rule out the interpretation of another future trend expressed in other quatrains: that the tomb was to be found in 1978, the year a dramatic influx of interest in the teachings of Osho, Hubbard, Moon, and Adi Da Samraj. It can be assumed, therefore, that a new religious sect has already appeared.

The indexing of 6 Q66 could, on closer inspection, hide the biblically symbolic number, 666, which represents man and the Antichrist. If this is a correct interpretation Nostradamus does not make it clear whether the number stands for the new sect or is intended as a jibe at the Roman Catholic Church as un-Christ-tian. Certainly all the candidates explored are, to varying degrees, considered threats to the orthodox Christian view of the universe.

***

I would like to add a correction. It wasn’t in 1978 but in 1968 that Pope Paul VI declared the bones of St. Peter had been found. However, Pope Paul made the announcement in the latter half of the 20th century, close enough to the new millennium to make this prophecy contemporary for our times.

Easter is just around the corner. So too is the five-year anniversary of Pope John Paul II’s death (2 April) and Cardinal Ratzinger’s succession as Pope Benedict XVI (19 April). Earthquakes in Nostradamus’s cryptic lexicon aren’t always what they linguistically seem. The shake up of the Vatican in a future April, perhaps this coming April, could imply a deepening, Church-quaking pedophile scandal undermining the credibility of this pope.

In Part Two, we’ll look at other suggested discoveries of St. Peter and the other Great Roman, St. Paul, as possibly indicating events foreseen in this prophecy far closer to us in time than 1968.

John Hogue
part 1 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-part-1/
part 2 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-part-2/
part 3 http://hogueprophecy.com/2010/nostradamus-666-prophecy-3/

[Tuza]

I knew that s... was an evil bas....d when I first locked eyes on him, hope he rots in a very dark, yukky place with other dark yukky energies and he can feel them slither.

[RedeZra]

what if the "crucifixion" is just a holographic insert that was used to enslave humanity further....a "cross of fiction"(crucifixion)..the idea that one man sacrificed his life to save us all from our sins and damnation is one powerful inserted belief that perpetuates victim/victimiser..saviour control..guilt.sin,etc...what if the image of Jesus on the cross was used by the controllers to symbolise how they have implanted humans andDNA has been shut down and everytime someone worships jesus on the cross they are in fact empowering man's enslavery...what a great source of power and amusement the controllers get fromwatchingignorant humanity worship their own enslavement....the "crucifiction" implant is being removed...



the story of Jesus is superbly simple

why do people feel the need to complicate it and indulge in fantasies

what will they gain


the gospel the crucifixion and the resurrection are all messages ment to convey a meaning

namely that we are all more than mere mortals


but there is a specific way to live one's life

so as to not be born again as a slave of the senses

but become immortal and master of mind


Jesus is most worthy of worship for He overcame Death

and as a Lord of the Living

He manifest intervenes and shower Graces to those that love Him


the supreme consciousness and the essence of everything

is most potent in the Name of Jesus


you would be right if saying

Jesus is God


how many times have you dragged your feet towards death

if you knew you would be appaled


life is an experience

but how many times will you experience it

and not remember the last life experience


instead of making a serious effort to become immortal

you keep indulging in fantsy and fiction

getting lost in the maze of the mind

indefinitely


Jesus is a Savior for He guides to the way out of this circle of confusion


Divinity is perfection

so sins are errors and mistakes

that make one unfit for a Divine life


vices or virtues

what will it be


a little bit of both

then make sure which way the scale will go

lest it sink the Soul to Hell


for what we choose we will receive

and it's all one's own work


it's foolish to dig a pit to try to fly


one cannot bribe or trick God

but we can ask for His Grace

and He wants us to come Home

to the Divine family


Earth is a shadow of Heaven

at least try to make it there

as an interim between lifes on Earth

why gnash in Hell

which is of course a state of mind

as are all levels of life and death


transgress and loose ground

behave and advance


transcend the mind and escape the matrix


crush and cross out the ego I

the symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus

and gush forth as spontaneous Spirit forever fresh and rich in Itself


in Reality all and everything are ornaments and paraphernalia

for Man to Realize God

[greybeard]

the story of Jesus is superbly simple

why do people feel the need to complicate it and indulge in fantasies

what will they gain


the gospel the crucifixion and the resurrection are all messages ment to convey a meaning

namely that we are all more than mere mortals


but there is a specific way to live one's life

so as to not be born again as a slave of the senses

but become immortal and master of mind


Jesus is most worthy of worship for He overcame Death

and as a Lord of the Living

He manifest intervenes and shower Graces to those that love Him


the supreme consciousness and the essence of everything

is most potent in the Name of Jesus


you would be right if saying

Jesus is God


how many times have you dragged your feet towards death

if you knew you would be appaled


life is an experience

but how many times will you experience it

and not remember the last life experience


instead of making a serious effort to become immortal

you keep indulging in fantsy and fiction

getting lost in the maze of the mind

indefinitely


Jesus is a Savior for He guides to the way out of this circle of confusion


Divinity is perfection

so sins are errors and mistakes

that make one unfit for a Divine life



A----man!!!!!!--- AMEN.

Dear RedeZra.
Thats telling it like it is.
Ive spent my fair share of running here there and everywhere.
The spiritual circus is very seductive but leads no where.
You are right in all that you say my friend.
For my money its down to keeping it simple and intention.
Surrender, humility, devotion, gratitude, the first two commandments, really what else is there?

With Love
Chris

[RedeZra]

A----man!!!!!!--- AMEN.

Dear RedeZra.
Thats telling it like it is.
Ive spent my fair share of running here there and everywhere.
The spiritual circus is very seductive but leads no where.
You are right in all that you say my friend.
For my money its down to keeping it simple and intention.
Surrender, humility, devotion, gratitude, the first two commandments, really what else is there?

With Love
Chris


lol did I nail it Chris

I know my Christ



I knew that s... was an evil bas....d when I first locked eyes on him, hope he rots in a very dark, yukky place with other dark yukky energies and he can feel them slither.


Tuza do you think they talk like that in Heaven

[shiva777]

the problem is that so many well intentioned people have been mislead in to thinking that if they "worship" figures such as Jesus or Krishna etc that it couldn't possibly be a negative action..it's a cruel trick that can't possibly be explained to people who have NOT developed the inner senses to FEEL what is really going on....they don't understand the atomic harnesses and cords that are created that feed in to the very heart of the negative agenda who set it up so that they could feed off their "love" and enslave them further...if only it was as simple as people think

the 3 Christs http://www.magickriver.net/3-Christs.htm

the problem is that organised religions and almost all new agey teachings are based on "love,light and clueless" practices..the enlightenment that Hawkins and Tolle etc have reached is a small awakening,a mind enlightenment but have they beaten the aging process,can they bilocate at will,can they spontaneously heal others at will,can they dematerialise....and a million other things...their "love and light" is only just blossoming...this particular ascension cycle is different to others were.this is the cycle of LOVE,LIGHT and POWER...meaning the full blossoming of our inherent love,WISDOM and CONCIOUS partnership with the Divine..worshipping anything but the Divine within you will hinder that awakening

[RedeZra]

the 3 Christs http://www.magickriver.net/3-Christs.htm


Ashayana has no authority compared to Christ


the mind is powerful

you are what you think

what's on your mind might manifest

but that does not make it Real

it's good to soak the mind in Divinity

with time and practise it will make you Divine

make no mistake about it


even devils can bilocate heal dematerialize shapeshift and what not

that should not be a litmus test for your spiritual progress


work on the virtues

read up on the lives of saints and sages

you cannot trick your way to blessedness

Get Inspired


you don't seem to understand that the Divinity within

sometimes incarnates and intervenes with mankind


it is of course to your spiritual advantage to meditate on the Divinity within

in the Name and Form of Jesus


anyone who says anything else

is either an ignoramus or an agent of the dark

[shiva777]

what is written in the Bible is a huge distortion of the "Christ " conciousness and awareness...that's your belief system and you can keep it...you probably won't watch ashayana Deanes video soon to be posted on projectcamelot but if you do you may learn something else...you probably don't believe that the TRUE Jesus went to India and Egypt to LEARN very esoteric info about kundalini,ritual,spiritual science and som much more before he was able to ascend...he realised that love and light were not enough ,WISDOM was also needed and that Wisdom was of course kept out of the bible and distorted when it was included...hence the state of "Christianity" today

[kriya]

the TRUE Jesus went to india and Egypt to LEARN very esoteric info about kundalini,ritual,spiritual science and som much more before he was able to ascend...he realised that love and light were not enough ,WISDOM was also needed and that Wisdom was of course kept out of the bible and distorted when it was included...hence the state of "Christianity" today


And Tibet

love,

Kriya

[RedeZra]

what is written in the Bible is a huge distortion of the "Christ " conciousness and awareness...that's your belief system and you can keep it...you probably won't watch ashayana Deanes video soon to be posted on projectcamelot but if you do you may learn something else...you probably don't believe that the TRUE Jesus went to India and Egypt to LEARN very esoteric info about kundalini,ritual,spiritual science and som much more before he was able to ascend...he realised that love and light were not enough ,WISDOM was also needed and that Wisdom was of course kept out of the bible and distorted when it was included...hence the state of "Christianity" today



those that work to erase Christ from the minds of mankind

are in service of Satan and the System


you don't even understand what I write

or you don't bother to read it


I know about Christ consciousness

and the fact that the Bible and the Church

are more about the persona of Jesus


but you see with the Divine

it is a case of both matter and spirit - both above and below - both within and without

they are both valid as the Bible and the Church - the humanity of Jesus and the Divinity of Christ


the historical Jesus was awake and aware in the socalled Christ consciousness


did it ever occur to you that many people need a name and a form and a context

to get in touch with the Christ consciousness within


besides learn about the basics first before you begin to fly so you don't get lost in the sky

[shiva777]

get a few clues

go to the archived interviews for the dates

9 30 and 10 28 and learn some things very few are aware of

http://www.gtbroadcasting.com/mediaplayer/index.php

[RedeZra]

get a few clues

go to the archived interviews for the dates

9 30 and 10 28 and learn some things very few are aware of

http://www.gtbroadcasting.com/mediaplayer/index.php



lol when did the clueless begin to give out clues

no wonder it's a sorry state of affairs


why do you base your believes on Ashayana

and her wild imaginations


you seem to believe that the Bible is without wisdom

and that there is some secret esoteric teachings to shortcut you to a high spiritual state

you don't like basics so you want to advance now

you think outer worship in form of devotion and maybe inner worship in form of meditation
on Jesus or Krishna is actually harmful


lol you really need to change company

[shiva777]

some more clues...Lisa renee discusses Genetic pathcutting and ascension

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPsL6PTGVY

[RedeZra]

some more clues...Lisa renee discusses Genetic pathcutting and ascension

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPsL6PTGVY



so you do base your believes on dubious channelers of fantastic fiction lol

it's only entertainment and monymaking and perhaps a purpose part of the NWO

[greybeard]

There is one true indicator of spiritual progress as pointed to by Ramana, that is the degree of silence of the mind.

Regarding Dr Hawkins -- Having studied his teaching for several years, my belief is that he is as enlightened as it is possible to be on this earth.
Many people have been healed spontaneously in his presence, its documented in his life history;
He had the larges Psychiatry Practice in the state of New York. The hopeless cases came to him and many were cured. Some came out of a cationic state.
Bi-locate? How can you when you are in a non-locality, formless, timeless ego less state of non-duality?
The persona (Dr Hawkins) that communication happens through has a sense of humor. The form of Dr Hawkins says. People talk to the body because that the way it is here.
People make statements about enlightenment without reading in depth the teachings that have flowed through those in that state since time began.
Enlightenment is also called God realization for good reason.
That state can only be experienced it cant be adequately described, It can only be pointed to.
That state can truly say " I am the totality all of it"
"I existed before all Universes and will exist after all Universes have dissolved"

Dr. David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D.

Dr. Hawkins is an internationally renowned psychiatrist, physician, researcher, and pioneer in the fields of consciousness research and spirituality. He writes and teaches from the unique perspective of an experienced clinician, scientist, and mystic and is devoted to the spiritual evolution of mankind.

I have put a link here

http://www.veritaspub.com/index.php?page=about

So many have jumped on the 2012 money making wagon.
People are so gullible and thats ok. Been there done it.
So what to trust?
For me what comes up over thousands of year is the same teaching flowing through different mouths.
Krishna, The Buddha, Jesus and others all in essence said the same thing.
God is in everything.
Within our form is the In-dweller, our true self. true teachings say lookwithin, God is to be found there.
Everything else (New Age, distortions of truth, the spiritual circus) is a distraction.
If one is serious about raising ones vibration far less enlightenment I would suggest really looking at the teaching flowing through Eckhart Tolle and Dr Hawkins.
They are using modern language to relay the same truth that was given us by Jesus.
Chris

[RedeZra]

There is one true indicator of spiritual progress as pointed to by Ramana, that is the degree of silence of the mind.



I believe Ramana made it to the top of the Godhead

yes the very top

[Tuza]

Tuza do you think they talk like that in Heaven[/QUOTE]

I don't know, do you think they do, do you think the paedophile priests will get to Heaven?

I have a very personal relationship with my Christ, very personal okay. He knows me through and through and what's in my mind and heart. Just because I am a truth seeker doesn't mean I don't get really angry about elected papacy sitting on their earthy thrones trying to make more popular opinions for the younger generation, slinking off into one of their many hidden places in the Vatican and hiding their evil secrets and doings. Do yourself a favour, do not judge unless you be judged yourself; unless of ofcourse your one of those paedophilic priests in which case I will point the finger.

[shiva777]

how would you know...maybe Ramana made it to a point he couldn't transcend,,a subtle trap of the astralthat Hawkins,Tolle and others fell in to as well... do you know where they went to after they died?....stay tuned and wave to Ramana as you pass if you manage to catch the ascension waves coming...their work is uiseful to a point,a trap beyond that point

attitudes and responsibilites from ashayana Deane
http://azuritepress.com/techniques/attitudes_responsibilities.php

[greybeard]

how would you know...maybe Ramana made it to a point he couldn't transcend,,a subtle trap of the astralthat Hawkins,Tolle and others fell in to as well... do you know where they went to after they died?....stay tuned and wave to Ramana as you pass if you manage to catch the ascension waves coming...their work is uiseful to a point,a trap beyond that point

attitudes and responsibilites from ashayana Deane
http://azuritepress.com/techniques/attitudes_responsibilities.php

shiva777 you are entitled to your opinion Im not nocking ashanyana because I know nothing about her.
Looks like you know little about Dr Hawkins who remembers past lives and in between lives too.
Have a look at the link I furnished.
Was Krishna telling the truth was Jesus?
They are uniform in what they say.
The Bhagavad Gita has not been distorted by religion.
Even if you leave aside current teachers. The Truth is still valid as taught by sages since time began.
If you choose not to believe that fine.
Krishna said "Even those running in the wrong direction are mine"
As long as you Love God shiva777 thats enough.
Chris

[RedeZra]

I don't know, do you think they do, do you think the paedophile priests will get to Heaven?

Do yourself a favour, do not judge unless you be judged yourself; unless of ofcourse your one of those paedophilic priests in which case I will point the finger.


fine you do the thrash talking


there is no excuse for pedophilia

it is wrong of the Church

to not suspend the suspects and involve the police


understand that pedophilia is not church exclusive

there are rumors of ritual child abuse in secret societies outside the Church


I believe the tops of these secret societies rule at least the western world

and are working on the destruction of the Church in an attempt to overthrow Christ


try to keep it decent Tuza

[Carmen]

Hi greybeard, I have had David Hawkins' book Power vs Force for ages, but had only browsed through it. I finally read it right through and am now re-reading it for greater meaning! Its a fabulous book and I agree with you about Dr Hawkins enlightenment. I have since told all my friends and family about the book and have bought several copies to give away. The muscle testing technique is one that I have experienced over the years myself and it is very accurate. Dr Hawkins thorough scientific research is fabulous in its scope and rigourousness. The technique is obviously much more applicable than just for health issues. Its also a great way to teach family and friends who arent of a spiritual bent, but are open minded in other ways.

For me it answered questions that Ive had about various peoples attitudes on forums and generally. People are so widely different because they are coming from different levels of consciousness. All we can do as humans is to do the best we can with our present understanding. Problems arise when sometimes quite widely different levels of consciousness are attempting to communicate or understand some particular point. We are literally talking different languages. We cannot at times understand the modus operandi of levels above us or, for that matter, below us. To think about the various levels and to understand the nature of those levels of consciousness is a huge help. Also, as is stated in the book, we range over several levels but (and this is my understanding ) as we evolve, the lower levels are left behind completely. Sort of like pulling up the ladder behind us!

I love to cross-reference all that I learn, to gain deeper understandings, also to check on the authenticity of what I am learning. The muscle testing confirmed what I intuitively knew and also from what dousing revealed.

Its really quite easy to know if a source is true or not. We do use our own knowingness which is right on at a certain level of spiritual advancement, but the acid test is what Jesus said in the Bible, which is "By their works, ye shall know them". To me, this is the true touchstone. Don't tell me how advanced you are, just show me!

Love

Carmen

[shiva777]

your kinesiology testing depends on your DNA activation level...which is what connects you to Source Truth..so what is TRUTH at your level or at Hawkins level will often not be the truth at higher levels of DNA activation...going by Hawkins and Tolles' etc abilities and understandings they activated only to their higher 4th or 5th DNA strands...I also enjoy Hawkins and Tolles work...I spent many months meditating at Ramana's ashram in India(Thiruvanamali) and at the foot of Arunachala...there is more to it than that and as our plantary frquency increases so will many people's ability to grasp that will as well...stay tuned,things are being revealed that nobody knows and levels of awakening will be achieved that no previous master understood or demonstrated on earth before

[RedeZra]

how would you know...maybe Ramana made it to a point he couldn't transcend,,a subtle trap of the astralthat Hawkins,Tolle and others fell in to as well... do you know where they went to after they died?....stay tuned and wave to Ramana as you pass if you manage to catch the ascension waves coming...their work is uiseful to a point,a trap beyond that point



Im amazed that you can base your believes on Ashayana

because she contradicts so much common sense

seems to me she channels fantastic scifi fables and fairy tales


I think it's serious when the citizens of a society

are incapable of discerning right from wrong - good from bad - fiction from facts

it's a recipe for disaster

[Tuza]

fine you do the thrash talking


there is no excuse for pedophilia

it is wrong of the Church

to not suspend the suspects and involve the police


understand that pedophilia is not church exclusive

there are rumors of ritual child abuse in secret societies outside the Church


I believe the tops of these secret societies rule at least the western world

and are working on the destruction of the Church in an attempt to overthrow Christ


try to keep it decent Tuza

I am probably way older than you, so maybe you should be respectful to your elders then, mmmh. And BTW who would not want the destruction of the church, it is in the name of the church that wars, rape, pillaging, incest, torture, holding a council to delete and include words in the scriptures, etc, etc.

You, yourself are preaching to people here and you have got it all twisted. Destroying the church is not going to overthrow Christ, that will not happen imho. The only thing that will happen by destroying the church is the paedophillic priests will have to go hunting somewhere else.:rolleyes: without their free ride of a rent free home, car, money, stuff in general and respect for people who don't realise their paedophiles. Then you have the alcoholic priests etc, etc. Oh and I wouldn't tell me I know nothing about aneither considering I was born, bred, raised in the catholic faith and went to their schools, been there, done that.

You are a typical hypercritical religious fundamentalist pointing the finger at me because I used a word about your evil pope, he is not my pope; the only spiritual leader I have is Christ himself and the angel hierarchy. Do not tell me how to speak, go and tell your earthly religious leaders to stop twisting the truth and abusing people. :p

Why am I thinking your from the UK.:confused:

[greybeard]

Hi greybeard, I have had David Hawkins' book Power vs Force for ages, but had only browsed through it. I finally read it right through and am now re-reading it for greater meaning! Its a fabulous book and I agree with you about Dr Hawkins enlightenment. I have since told all my friends and family about the book and have bought several copies to give away. The muscle testing technique is one that I have experienced over the years myself and it is very accurate. Dr Hawkins thorough scientific research is fabulous in its scope and rigourousness. The technique is obviously much more applicable than just for health issues. Its also a great way to teach family and friends who arent of a spiritual bent, but are open minded in other ways.

For me it answered questions that Ive had about various peoples attitudes on forums and generally. People are so widely different because they are coming from different levels of consciousness. All we can do as humans is to do the best we can with our present understanding. Problems arise when sometimes quite widely different levels of consciousness are attempting to communicate or understand some particular point. We are literally talking different languages. We cannot at times understand the modus operandi of levels above us or, for that matter, below us. To think about the various levels and to understand the nature of those levels of consciousness is a huge help. Also, as is stated in the book, we range over several levels but (and this is my understanding ) as we evolve, the lower levels are left behind completely. Sort of like pulling up the ladder behind us!

I love to cross-reference all that I learn, to gain deeper understandings, also to check on the authenticity of what I am learning. The muscle testing confirmed what I intuitively knew and also from what dousing revealed.

Its really quite easy to know if a source is true or not. We do use our own knowingness which is right on at a certain level of spiritual advancement, but the acid test is what Jesus said in the Bible, which is "By their works, ye shall know them". To me, this is the true touchstone. Don't tell me how advanced you are, just show me!

Love

Carmen

There are those who talk about it and those who are it.
David Hawkins does not see the world the way we do at all, his world is totally different from ours, ascension by any other name has already happened for him and others. Beyond form is even beyond ascension.
There have always been fore runners in civilization. NOW is no different.
Hawkins speaking from "personal" experience says that even the "I am" goes.

Thanks Carmen for sharing your experience of Dr Hawkins book.
You have obviously have taken in the information at great depth.
Im impressed with the way you share what you have learned.

I went to America to see him give the Lecture "Living the Prayer" afterwards I was fortunate to meet him for a few moments.

Why fortunate?
I have always suffered from a great fear of heights. Getting up on a kitchen chair cause nausea.
Soon after the seminar I was dared by a friend to go up on a carousel. I soon found myself at least 80ft up in the air totally relaxed.
A healing had happened un expected unasked for.

When I got home to Inverness I was siting in church at my Aunts funeral service and I felt energy flowing out of myself into a lady beside me.
She approached me after the service and said she had felt a healing happen as energy came into her side through me.
She was due to go into hospital to have major surgery on her back. She phoned several weeks later to say that she had had another x ray and they could find nothing wrong with her spine.
I did not know that there had been anything wrong with her, the healing out with my intention or knowledge.
All I know is that I have experienced the love of God within me.
A bliss state lasted about two days. I could only see love in everyone, a beautiful place to be.
I get brief returns of that state. It just happens.
Church has its place up till now but times they are a changing.

Hawkins says that through a change in perception we are going to see the world completely differently. He know.
Chris

[greybeard]

your kinesiology testing depends on your DNA activation level...which is what connects you to Source Truth..so what is TRUTH at your level or at Hawkins level will often not be the truth at higher levels of DNA activation...going by Hawkins and Tolles' etc abilities and understandings they activated only to their higher 4th or 5th DNA strands...I also enjoy Hawkins and Tolles work...I spent many months meditating at Ramana's ashram in India(Thiruvanamali) and at the foot of Arunachala...there is more to it than that and as our plantary frquency increases so will many people's ability to grasp that will as well...stay tuned,things are being revealed that nobody knows and levels of awakening will be achieved that no previous master understood or demonstrated on earth before

Who said?
Shiva777. Kinesiology answers, according to Dr Hawkins is not coming from the body at all but from the field of consciousness that has and does record every word thought deed action that has ever happened or will ever happen. Nothing to do with DNA.
I agree that in the illusion there is more to it.
Ramana said. "The world that you are trying to save doesn't even exist"
Its all level of perception.
Ultimately only God is. The rest is a story. You are God, shiva777 what more can you possibly want?
Enjoy consciousness at play, I do.
What ever happens, happens, happens. you cant make it happen.
Wishing you best.
Chris

[RedeZra]

I am probably way older than you, so maybe you should be respectful to your elders then, mmmh. And BTW who would not want the destruction of the church, it is in the name of the church that wars, rape, pillaging, incest, torture, holding a council to delete and include words in the scriptures, etc, etc.

You are a typical hypercritical religious fundamentalist pointing the finger at me because I used a word about your evil pope, he is not my pope; the only spiritual leader I have is Christ himself and the angel hierarchy. Do not tell me how to speak, go and tell your earthly religious leaders to stop twisting the truth and abusing people. :p

Why am I thinking your from the UK.:confused:



what makes you think that you are way older than me


age automatically induces respect at first

and then after awhile the whole persona comes into play

and respect might be lost lol


I just made a point that perhaps you should tone down the language in that post


the great wars of the last century was not about religion as most wars are not
sometimes religion is used as an excuse and a scapegoat to incite war
nevertheless the Crusades and the wars between catholics and protestants in enlightened Europe were religious wars

Im not at all a typical hypercritical religious fundamentalist

just goes to show that you don't understand what I write

and still you like to label me


Im not from the UK :p

[shiva777]

the body is the instrument and that instrument can only play the game of Kinesiology at the level it is activated too....and DNA is the morphogentic field carrier which "records every word thought deed action that has ever happened or will ever happen" and much,much more....again watch the soon to be released Ashayana Deane interview and you may learn a thing or two about CONCIOUS ascension,DNA and our crucial role in how we will experience ourselves...or you may not

[Tuza]

what makes you think that you are way older than me


age automatically induces respect at first

and then after awhile the whole persona comes into play

and respect might be lost lol


I just made a point that perhaps you should tone down the language in that post


Im not at all a typical hypercritical religious fundamentalist

just goes to show that you don't understand what I write

and still you like to label me


Im not from the UK :p

Well you just sounded a bit like a straight laced wowzer from the British upper working class (sorry for that) that is sterotyping, but it popped into my head everytime I read one of your posts.

So you must be a religious wowzer from another country, doesn't matter, there are wowzers all over the globe. And as far as age goes I am catching up with methusla, close on his heels in fact :p

I understand your posts though, your telling another human how to speak and not speak; and I am saying to you if I want to call the pope an evil p.... I can and I will. :p

[Beren]

Remember that crucial thing that happened in Eden.

Whether it was in physical or spiritual meaning , story from Eden carries strong message and that is of deception .

Deception of serpent which asked first : " IS it ...? Then arguably continued with fashion to expand God`s clear words with its own words and ... we all see the result today.
Same thing is with Jesus Christ.
The thing that always amazes me is human mind who seem to always avoid plain spoken thing . It always bends truth, twists it color it ,cut it, move or remove it.
Why?
It does not like what it heard ,why/
It wants to be ITS OWN decider of good and bad, fully independent from God-Creator of life and thus their own Creator and life force sustainer.
Nothing can live outside Creator. Nothing could live when it`s not connected to creators main power structure in the universe,physical or spiritual.

Is that so hard to understand for human mind?

We can not live if we leave Creator.

But we want that and we want to be independent. Simply can not happen. We are bound to Creator`s life force since we are of his image.
Why is that hard to accept Creator`s wish to acknowledge him as our Father?

Either way accept it or not , he IS our Father and we are his creation. Our very mind that condemns God is created by God. Our very free will to even discuss God and liking or hating or dismissing him or embracing him was and IS actually allowed by God.

Why can`t we see that?

Forget about endless theories about Christ conscience ,Krishna ,Buda ,Asthar ,GFL,Devil,Satan,Lucifer,New World order,Religions,.....Bla bla blah!

Nothing exist outside Creator`s will.

The very fact that we drool about all this things and have fiery talks over it WILL not change a darn thing in Creator`s intention with Earth and each and everyone of us!
GET OVER IT!

He sent his son, gave us unimaginable value is his teaching and example of what we will become if we follow that path.

NO excuses for anyone.

No theories,science,religions,philosophies,churches, organizations,worlds,aliens, even if all being unite against Creator -no one or nothing will do a darn thing to change Creator`s will.

Is that difficult to understand?

But we also miss the point in this ; Creator is of love, of wisdom, power and justice.
And he looks us ,his children and teaches us, cares about us,giving us more that we can observe and acknowledge.

And we spit on him.

We curse him ,we say things that are shameful to him. Whom of us will curse his mom or dad? What sane person will say F***k you to his parents?

Yet we do that to our father. Daily. Billions of us.
We always try to be creative and larger than life and we always and I will repeat always, end up in mud. And we rise and fall and rise and fall, simply because we are stubborn as donkeys could be.

Can we ever learn?
Father loves us! He cares for us! He gave his son for our redemption for we rebelled against him! He said that glorious future awaits us!
But we still growl and hate him. We imagine vain things, we lie each other and ourselves.
WHY WHY WHY???


Are we stupid or what?

Time is coming when school, high school and college of life as we know it so far will be over. Final exam will be . Before Creator. Just you and him.
NO help,cheating and drum beating. Creator and you. Then all your soul and being will realize were you all right or all wrong.

And what you`re going to tell the Creator?

You didn`t know?
You need more time?
You are weak?
You are misunderstood?
You are right?
You are powerful?
You are god?

You are...what?

As time goes by, I see Creator`s hand in all and I feel beauty. I see vivid pictures in my mind of meanings of all and feel his spirit and yet I am just a man.
That`s why I will listen to Christ advice and love, love and then I will see what happens,what miracles is being discovered by Creator.

[Tuza]

Beren I respect what you say about Christ my friend, I respect it a lot. Now the only thing I don't have a lot of time for is seeing those catholic nuns standing in vatican city and waiting day and night for that certain type of smoke going up saying that those cardinals in there have made a decision on who is the next Pope and then you will see a nun cross herself and maybe crying thinking that God himself made that decision.

Sorry Beren, there has been too much evil perpertrated in the name of that church; in fact the catholic church has probably perpretrated a lot of the evil in the name of the Creator.

I am going to tell you this again, I was brought up a christian in the roman catholic faith, went to the schools, know it all and I still have a relationship with my Lord/Creator. He knows me, He will judge me, there is nothing He does not know about me.

and again I will say, and He knows I say it, if I want to call the pope an evil p.... I darn well will because he is.

[Beren]

Tuza, I agree with you.

I am not Catholic and do not belong to any religion.
Religions are wanna be corporations ,firms and spiritual bankers who cash of genuine human desire for God.

Jesus condemned them ,all those old day and modern day pharisees,scribes and clergy.

There is no mediator in between God beside Christ who is the perfect image of father.

Ende.
The end.
Conec.
Kraj.
Tacka.
Finito.
La fin.

[RedeZra]

nice heartfelt post Beren


it's nothing wrong with debating different issues

after all it is a forum

it's normal to disagree on intangible things

as we don't share the same experiences

which makes us unique


I think it's right to argue against ideas and believes which I think are wrong


not for the sake of argument

but for you to tell me why you think so

and perhaps convince me to your point of view

peacefully without going to war about it


Chris says he rather be happy than right

but why can't I be both lol

[RedeZra]

Religions are wanna be corporations ,firms and spiritual bankers who cash of genuine human desire for God.

Jesus condemned them ,all those old day and modern day pharisees,scribes and clergy.

There is no mediator in between God beside Christ who is the perfect image of father.



how would we know about Christ if not for the Church


if not for the apostles written testemony of the good news

if not for Paul's vision and wish of Christ to establish churches

if not for the early church fathers compilation of the New Testament


thay all paid with their lives

for being involved with Christ and the churches

so that coming generations should hear and learn about Christ


if not for the Church

we would have been none the wiser than the scribes and the pharisees


now the Church is under attack

perhaps it's retribution time for all the wrong it's done


but if it wasn't for the Church

which preserved the legacy of Christ up through the ages

we would have no clue about Christ


the Church must change


but if not for the Church

Christ would vanish into the dusty recesses of the human psyche a long time ago

if it did not defend sacred ground


we would not read about Him either

for the Book would have been burnt with the Church


now the Church must change

perhaps it will fall

but for 2000 years it has survived

to tell us the story of Christ today


to say that Christ has nothing to do with the Church

is in my opinion at best a mistake


of course Christ is not living in the churches

but within the heart of everything

but we would not know about it

if not for the Church

[truthseekerdan]

Can we ever learn?
Father loves us! He cares for us! He gave his son for our redemption for we rebelled against him! He said that glorious future awaits us!
But we still growl and hate him. We imagine vain things, we lie each other and ourselves.
WHY WHY WHY???


Are we stupid or what?

Time is coming when school, high school and college of life as we know it so far will be over. Final exam will be . Before Creator. Just you and him.
NO help,cheating and drum beating. Creator and you. Then all your soul and being will realize were you all right or all wrong.

And what you`re going to tell the Creator?

You didn`t know?
You need more time?
You are weak?
You are misunderstood?
You are right?
You are powerful?
You are god?

You are...what?

As time goes by, I see Creator`s hand in all and I feel beauty. I see vivid pictures in my mind of meanings of all and feel his spirit and yet I am just a man.
That`s why I will listen to Christ advice and love, love and then I will see what happens,what miracles is being discovered by Creator.

Dear Beren,

Love, love unconditionally and see what happens... :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZVZ5m2Dsk&feature=player_embedded

[greybeard]

For myself I seek the middle way.
I agree with RedZra without churches I would not have heard of Jesus or God.
And yes there is great freedom in not having to be right.
I would rather be happy than right.
I get concerned when people are so sure that their way is the only way to ascension and if you don't follow that way you get left behind.
That is just a modified version of religions and churches.
its ego ---Im right therefore your way is wrong.
My belief is simple, Jesus, Krishna et all, pointed to God.
Only God is to be devoted to, the rest deserve deepest gratitude and respect. Christ can intercede for you at heavens gate though.
We are all waves of the Divine Ocean
Rivers flowing into the Ocean.
The ocean always welcomes the river.
Water always finds its way home.
Why worry it is all in Gods Hands.
Enjoy life

Chris

[Beren]

RedeZra,
I agree somewhat with you. They did formed churches and church as an institution served its purpose and still in some way serves. But the thing is that this is a first step. Church is a first step towards Christ. Then if your heart is genuine God leads you forward.
Here comes the first problem with all churches in some point. They do the first step in informing people about Creator and then instead to allow God's spirit to work in people, they tend to lock the passage way to God. They then state that actually God speaks through them and in that cloak they impose their new rules and regulations and voila!

You see the pattern?

And remember Paul's words that ravaging wolves will come?

Now God allowed that so everyone could be tested will that person put trust and faith in God or man ...

Majority prefers man since they can not be honest and genuine as God requires. You can not fool God but you can trick men with outside goodness...

[Etherios]

RedeZra,
I agree somewhat with you. They did formed churches and church as an institution served its purpose and still in some way serves. But the thing is that this is a first step. Church is a first step towards Christ. Then if your heart is genuine God leads you forward.
Here comes the first problem with all churches in some point. They do the first step in informing people about Creator and then instead to allow God's spirit to work in people, they tend to lock the passage way to God. They then state that actually God speaks through them and in that cloak they impose their new rules and regulations and voila!

You see the pattern?

And remember Paul's words that ravaging wolves will come?

Now God allowed that so everyone could be tested will that person put trust and faith in God or man ...

Majority prefers man since they can not be honest and genuine as God requires. You can not fool God but you can trick men with outside goodness...

No God did nothing ... all these was man made. There is no godsend ppl or popes ... they are all here to rule you in the name of god ... how ever they like to name him. The one that made everything wont bother to do anything to puny us. He made everything now its our time to make the best ... or worst with all these.

My soul is give by god directly it isnt passing through church so why should the opposite be any different? Or we should start think like ancient Egypt ... that the rulers are gods...

[Beren]

No God did nothing ... all these was man made. There is no godsend ppl or popes ... they are all here to rule you in the name of god ... how ever they like to name him. The one that made everything wont bother to do anything to puny us. He made everything now its our time to make the best ... or worst with all these.

My soul is give by god directly it isnt passing through church so why should the opposite be any different? Or we should start think like ancient Egypt ... that the rulers are gods...

That`s why Paul said that we are Church. Every human being becomes a temple of God when he or she changes themselves and allow God `s spirit to dwell in . Being holy means being filled with holy spirit. Building is just a building. Organization is just that-organization.

That is the one of the most important things that we must understand before God.
Anyways realize it we or not, everyone who align themselves with God are immediately part of God`s heavenly organization. Invisible by terrestrial eyes ,but very real.
So this is a kind a faith thing, do you have a faith or you still need to see the physical thing in order to believe?

Many do need to see to then believe.

At the end of time ,we will be as Christ is.
Whom ?
Only God knows who will be that.

True words;
anyone who wishes to save his life will lose it and anyone who lose it will receive it.
What good is at when you gain whole world and lose your soul?

Strong words-worthy of heavy contemplating.

[RedeZra]

They did formed churches and church as an institution served its purpose and still in some way serves. But the thing is that this is a first step. Church is a first step towards Christ. Then if your heart is genuine God leads you forward.

Here comes the first problem with all churches in some point. They do the first step in informing people about Creator and then instead to allow God's spirit to work in people, they tend to lock the passage way to God. They then state that actually God speaks through them and in that cloak they impose their new rules and regulations and voila!



yes I think so too Beren


the Church is a first step to Christ

the tangible first step


we would not know about Jesus except as a footnote in history

if the first christians walked away from the faith at the threat of their lives


almost all the Apostles were crucified or stoned for preaching the Gospel

Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downwards because he didn't consider

himself worthy to be crucified like Jesus


the Bible is preserved by the blood of the martyrs and it's message is preached

in the churches


the Gospel would probably be burnt as heresy by both Rome and Jerusalem

if the first christians that made up the early churches

denounced Jesus to save their own lives


we ought to be grateful to those that stick to the truth no matter what


because humans are constrained with a gross body and inflicted with a dross brain

it's just a matter of time before the truths are twisted towards some

self serving needs


there is an inherent corruption in all physical nature


the Church has survived up til our times to tell the Gospel of Christ and His victory over death

and that He is alive and available to help us overcome our own corruption

but it takes some time and a whole lot of virtues

which the Church unfortunately is running out of

as is the world

[greybeard]

It is good to be reminded of what early Christians went through to carry the message.
Those who believe have it easy now by comparison.
As a parallel --- free speech came at a very high price, we dont respect that, just take it as a given.
We dont really appreciate the message of truth that has been freely given to us through out the ages.
Always looking for something different something new, something exciting something external.
Heaven lies within, when we find it there we find it everywhere.
As Beren, RedeZra and others have said it is simple.
The path is straight and narrow and time is short.
We are in amazing times.
I suggest keep it simple, enjoy the gift of life we have been given.

Chris

[giovonni]

:yes4:
I am please to read and see the new direction of focus and discussion~ this thread has now taken

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/___ixHi_fjT4/SxLmf9hp_CI/AAAAAAAABFE/QTwgRB5xWfw/s1600/Living+Above+The+Line+Rainbow+over+tree+picture+small.jpg

Reconciliation brings peace~ that's what the Kingdom of God is all about. In that Kingdom every human being will at last come to a right relationship with the God of All There Is ~ by bringing forth the 'Christ' within each of us. This (Christ like) relationship was interrupted and has long been prevented by our misguided surface minds and egos~ leading us astray.

As everyone focuses and learns (anew) to live according to God's law of love (Romans 13:8-10), proper relationships among human beings will develop and grow. This is a vital part of the message Jesus Christ preached to the people of Galilee, and then to Judea, and that's the message the disciples began to spread throughout the world.

my love to all ~ giovonni

[lindabaker]

Reconciliation DOES bring peace, gio! We have to reconcile every deed that is coming to our awareness, be it the oil industry or the church. There are so many workers and church members who have nothing to do with the deeds we don't like. Reconciliation requires that we witness the deeds we don't like, first, and then we move on to the balancing. Right now, we are at the peak of the witnessing. It takes a big heart to reconcile with those who have done damage. As long as the damage ends, right? We'll take that.

[RedeZra]

reconciliation proposes peace whereas vengeance wants war


it's been a long time since the state and the church separated

still wars are faught in the name of freedom and security far far away from home

the state's atrocities eclipses exponentially the crimes and corruption of the churches

but both are made up of men and women just like you and me

the difference lies in whom we serve

self or Self


to serve a higher self is still self serving

to serve the Most high is service to Self


Jesus is a noble example set forth by the Most high and is a valid Name for God which is Self

[kriya]

Not all catholics are bad. Some are saints ~ great lovers of God.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMSCubd3hAg&feature=related



Love,

Kriya

[RedeZra]

Not all catholics are bad. Some are saints ~ great lovers of God.


that's right Kriya

the Church has a long history of producing veritable Saints

but there are bad apples there too - as everywhere else

[giovonni]

From USA Today;
Greg Erlandson and Matthew Bunson, authors of the new book~

"Pope Benedict XVI and the Sexual Abuse Crisis: Working for Reform and Renewal"

Authors defend Pope Benedict, say sex crisis will mold legacy

By Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY
Pope Benedict XVI's legacy will be shaped by his response to the explosive global clergy sex-abuse crisis, say two Catholic authors who detail and defend his record in a book published this week.

The Vatican and Benedict are accused of "acts of neglect, cover-up, and disregard for the plight of the victims," they write. Pope Benedict XVI and the Sexual Abuse Crisis: Working for Reform and Renewal is their rebuttal.

Greg Erlandson, head of the Catholic publishing company Our Sunday Visitor, and church historian Matthew Bunson, editor of The Catholic Almanac, take a long view — tracing the church's confrontations with sinful clergy back to the fourth century.

In two current examples in the headlines, the authors argue that Benedict was either unaware of the abusive priest or made a decision in favor of mercy (by declining to defrock a dying Wisconsin priest decades after he abused 200 deaf children).

However, the book also includes a compendium of speeches, letters and documents so readers can draw their own conclusions. The authors discuss their findings (replies have been edited for length and clarity):

Q: You both rely on a Catholic, church-based readership. What if you found Benedict did something wrong?

Erlandson: If there were a smoking gun, it would be reported and it would be dealt with. I take my cue from Benedict, who says, "There is a need to tell the truth."

Q: Why can't Benedict just fire bishops who protected abusive priests and make new rules for the whole church?

E: The Catholic church is not a multinational corporation with bishops as branch managers that the pope can hire, fire and mandate actions. It's much more complicated. In history and canon law, bishops are descendents of the apostles. It would be like Peter firing James. ... But it's pretty clear that he is chiding the bishops as a group and individually. There's definitely some steel there.

Bunson: Look at Ireland, where a number of bishops' positions became untenable as a consequence of their failures in office. You see the direct timeline between their February visit to the Holy See and (three) resignations in short order.

Q: Before he was pope, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Pope John Paul II and was steeped in reports of abuse that reached Rome. How much blame for failure to act sooner falls to him and John Paul II?

E: I'm wary of a tendency to throw John Paul II under the bus. ... He was taking steps, working with Ratzinger every week on this and certainly not clueless or insensitive to what was happening.

B: We remind readers that the U.S. bishops, in close consultation with (Ratzinger) and Pope John Paul II, put together a program in 2002 that has proved remarkably successful.

Q: You say the U.S. bishops' approach — zero tolerance for abusive priests and clear provision for child protection — has worked well. Why hasn't Benedict pushed other nations to follow it?

E: What the U.S. bishops did was tough medicine — and controversial. As painful as it is right now, (global bishops) may need time to see this is what is needed.

B: We think (worldwide church law) based on the U.S. approach is coming soon, but each country in a church of more than 1 billion people has to deal with this in its own legal culture and society.

Q: Benedict calls for both mercy and justice. But does the public want mercy for abusive priests?

B: The church always has to remember both. Church and civil law can be frustrating. Each has its process and requirements, and equal justice is still required regardless of how horrendous the accusations.

The word I think everyone is really looking for is accountability. We think this pope is demanding accountability. What people really should know, and our book tries to tell them, is that the rules and guidelines (to prevent and root out abuse) were always there in church law, but many bishops just chose not to act on them.

E: We are in a really angry age. We are angry at everybody —Democrats, Republicans, the Tea Party, the coffee party, what have you. People want vengeance.

But sometimes the desire for justice cannot be met. The accused are dead or too old. The Catholic Church is about the salvation of souls. The question becomes: How do you save a person's soul and at the same time show penalties? No one gets a free pass.

USA Today story here;
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-19-popebook19_ST_N.htm

[giovonni]

Please forgive me :pray: i couldn't resist this one :rolleyes:


Thrill of the chaste: The truth about Gandhi's sex life

With religious chastity under scrutiny, a new book throws light on Gandhi's practice of sleeping next to naked girls. In fact, he was sex-mad, writes biographer Jad Adams

It was no secret that Mohandas Gandhi had an unusual sex life. He spoke constantly of sex and gave detailed, often provocative, instructions to his followers as to how to they might best observe chastity. And his views were not always popular; "abnormal and unnatural" was how the first Prime Minister of independent India, Jawaharlal Nehru, described Gandhi's advice to newlyweds to stay celibate for the sake of their souls.

But was there something more complex than a pious plea for chastity at play in Gandhi's beliefs, preachings and even his unusual personal practices (which included, alongside his famed chastity, sleeping naked next to nubile, naked women to test his restraint)? In the course of researching my new book on Gandhi, going through a hundred volumes of his complete works and many tomes of eye-witness material, details became apparent which add up to a more bizarre sexual history.

Much of this material was known during his lifetime, but was distorted or suppressed after his death during the process of elevating Gandhi into the "Father of the Nation" Was the Mahatma, in fact, as the pre-independence prime minister of the Indian state of Travancore called him, "a most dangerous, semi-repressed sex maniac"?

Gandhi was born in the Indian state of Gujarat and married at 13 in 1883; his wife Kasturba was 14, not early by the standards of Gujarat at that time. The young couple had a normal sex life, sharing a bed in a separate room in his family home, and Kasturba was soon pregnant.

Two years later, as his father lay dying, Gandhi left his bedside to have sex with Kasturba. Meanwhile, his father drew his last breath. The young man compounded his grief with guilt that he had not been present, and represented his subsequent revulsion towards "lustful love" as being related to his father's death.

However, Gandhi and Kasturba's last child wasn't born until fifteen years later, in 1900.

In fact, Gandhi did not develop his censorious attitude to sex (and certainly not to marital sex) until he was in his 30s, while a volunteer in the ambulance corps, assisting the British Empire in its wars in Southern Africa. On long marches in sparsely populated land in the Boer War and the Zulu uprisings, Gandhi considered how he could best "give service" to humanity and decided it must be by embracing poverty and chastity.

At the age of 38, in 1906, he took a vow of brahmacharya, which meant living a spiritual life but is normally referred to as chastity, without which such a life is deemed impossible by Hindus.

Gandhi found it easy to embrace poverty. It was chastity that eluded him. So he worked out a series of complex rules which meant he could say he was chaste while still engaging in the most explicit sexual conversation, letters and behaviour.

With the zeal of the convert, within a year of his vow, he told readers of his newspaper Indian Opinion: "It is the duty of every thoughtful Indian not to marry. In case he is helpless in regard to marriage, he should abstain from sexual intercourse with his wife."

Meanwhile, Gandhi was challenging that abstinence in his own way. He set up ashrams in which he began his first "experiments" with sex; boys and girls were to bathe and sleep together, chastely, but were punished for any sexual talk. Men and women were segregated, and Gandhi's advice was that husbands should not be alone with their wives, and, when they felt passion, should take a cold bath.

The rules did not, however, apply to him. Sushila Nayar, the attractive sister of Gandhi's secretary, also his personal physician, attended Gandhi from girlhood. She used to sleep and bathe with Gandhi. When challenged, he explained how he ensured decency was not offended. "While she is bathing I keep my eyes tightly shut," he said, "I do not know ... whether she bathes naked or with her underwear on. I can tell from the sound that she uses soap." The provision of such personal services to Gandhi was a much sought-after sign of his favour and aroused jealousy among the ashram inmates.

As he grew older (and following Kasturba's death) he was to have more women around him and would oblige women to sleep with him whom – according to his segregated ashram rules – were forbidden to sleep with their own husbands. Gandhi would have women in his bed, engaging in his "experiments" which seem to have been, from a reading of his letters, an exercise in strip-tease or other non-contact sexual activity. Much explicit material has been destroyed but tantalising remarks in Gandhi's letters remain such as: "Vina's sleeping with me might be called an accident. All that can be said is that she slept close to me." One might assume, then, that getting into the spirit of the Gandhian experiment meant something more than just sleeping close to him.

It can't, one imagines, can have helped with the "involuntary discharges" which Gandhi complained of experiencing more frequently since his return to India. He had an almost magical belief in the power of semen: "One who conserves his vital fluid acquires unfailing power," he said.

Meanwhile, it seemed that challenging times required greater efforts of spiritual fortitude, and for that, more attractive women were required: Sushila, who in 1947 was 33, was now due to be supplanted in the bed of the 77-year-old Gandhi by a woman almost half her age. While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him. "We both may be killed by the Muslims," he told her, "and must put our purity to the ultimate test, so that we know that we are offering the purest of sacrifices, and we should now both start sleeping naked."

Such behaviour was no part of the accepted practice of bramacharya. He, by now, described his reinvented concept of a brahmachari as: "One who never has any lustful intention, who, by constant attendance upon God, has become proof against conscious or unconscious emissions, who is capable of lying naked with naked women, however beautiful, without being in any manner whatsoever sexually excited ... who is making daily and steady progress towards God and whose every act is done in pursuance of that end and no other." That is, he could do whatever he wished, so long as there was no apparent "lustful intention". He had effectively redefined the concept of chastity to fit his personal practices.

Thus far, his reasoning was spiritual, but in the maelstrom that was India approaching independence he took it upon himself to see his sex experiments as having national importance: "I hold that true service of the country demands this observance," he stated.

But while he was becoming bolder in his self-righteousness, Gandhi's behaviour was widely discussed and criticised by family members and leading politicians. Some members of his staff resigned, including two editors of his newspaper who left after refusing to print parts of Gandhi's sermons dealing with his sleeping arrangements.

But Gandhi found a way of regarding the objections as a further reason tocontinue. "If I don't let Manu sleep with me, though I regard it as essential that she should," he announced, "wouldn't that be a sign of weakness in me?"

Eighteen-year-old Abha, the wife of Gandhi's grandnephew Kanu Gandhi, rejoined Gandhi's entourage in the run-up to independence in 1947 and by the end of August he was sleeping with both Manu and Abha at the same time.

When he was assassinated in January 1948, it was with Manu and Abha by his side. Despite her having been his constant companion in his last years, family members, tellingly, removed Manu from the scene. Gandhi had written to his son: "I have asked her to write about her sharing the bed with me," but the protectors of his image were eager to eliminate this element of the great leader's life. Devdas, Gandhi's son, accompanied Manu to Delhi station where he took the opportunity of instructing her to keep quiet.

Questioned in the 1970s, Sushila revealingly placed the elevation of this lifestyle to a brahmacharya experiment was a response to criticism of this behaviour. "Later on, when people started asking questions about his physical contact with women – with Manu, with Abha, with me – the idea of brahmacharya experiments was developed ... in the early days, there was no question of calling this a brahmacharya experiment." It seems that Gandhi lived as he wished, and only when challenged did he turn his own preferences into a cosmic system of rewards and benefits. Like many great men, Gandhi made up the rules as he went along.

While it was commonly discussed as damaging his reputation when he was alive, Gandhi's sexual behaviour was ignored for a long time after his death. It is only now that we can piece together information for a rounded picture of Gandhi's excessive self-belief in the power of his own sexuality. Tragically for him, he was already being sidelined by the politicians at the time of independence. The preservation of his vital fluid did not keep India intact, and it was the power-brokers of the Congress Party who negotiated the terms of India's freedom.

Gandhi: Naked Ambition is published by Quercus

http://desicolours.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/Gandhi%20to%20Mahatma28.jpg

from the independent book review page link;
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/thrill-of-the-chaste-the-truth-about-gandhis-sex-life-1937411.html

[greybeard]

Hi Gio
May well be so but for possibly a different reason well some of it.
Tantric is believed to be a valid path to enlightenment.
The union of the male and female leading to union with God Oneness.
Mantak Chia wrote some good books on this from a Taoist viewpoint.
Barry Long claimed enlightenment happened in this way as does Bernie Prior.
From personal experience I know that it is possible without leaving the body to make love at any distance with your partner thats part of Tantric.
Ghandi no doubt could have been satisfied and satisfied a woman without physical intercourse.
Tantric states that orgasm is possible and beneficial without ejaculation.
The energy builds up in the male body instead of being lost, female also benefits.

Regards Chris

[giovonni]

i :agree: greybeard~ just having some fun with the enlightened ones (Gandhi's) great mystic image. i have been reading from the Perfect Matrimony ( the door into initiation~tantra and sexual alchemy unveiled)
from the e-book on sexual magic > http://www.anael.org/descargas/books/matrimony.pdf


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BXnemf6xL.jpg

Without spilling the seed~
"Something is created when a man and woman unite sexually. In those instances of supreme adoration he and she are truly one androgynous being with powers to create as the Gods. The Elohim are male and female. The man and woman, sexually united during the supreme ecstasy of love, are really a terribly divine Elohim. In those moments of sexual union we are really in the Laboratorium-Oratorium of the Holy Alchemy."

i'm sure Mohandas Mahatma Gandhi is having a chuckle with the release of the new book on his sexual habits~
"Thrill of the chaste: The truth about Gandhi's sex life"
:lol:

[greybeard]

Hi Gio
People expect enlightened ones to be Saints.
No they enjoy life to the full without fear or limitation.
The pathway of saint hood is rather different from the path of enlightenment, though some saints are enlightened and some enlightened are saints.
Its good not to take anything too seriously or label or put anyone in box of expectation. Ie they have to conform to our belief system.

Regards to you my friend
Chris

[giovonni]

The latest~ from the Raw Story :(

Obama admin. backs Vatican’s claim of immunity to sexual abuse lawsuits
http://www.rawstory.com/images/new/pope-raybans.jpg

The Obama administration in a brief to the Supreme Court has backed the Vatican's claim of immunity from lawsuits arising from cases of sexual abuse by priests in the United States.


The Supreme Court is considering an appeal by the Vatican of an appellate court ruling that lifted its immunity in the case of an alleged pedophile priest from Oregon.

In a filing on Friday, the solicitor general's office argued that the Ninth Circuit court of appeals erred in allowing the lawsuit brought by a man who claims he was sexually abused in the 1960s by the Oregon priest.

The unnamed plaintiff, who cited the Holy See and several other parties as defendants, argued the Vatican should be held responsible for transferring the priest to Oregon and letting him serve there despite previous accusations he had abused children in Chicago and in Ireland.

The solicitor general's office, which defends the position of President Barack Obama's administration before the Supreme Court, said the Ninth Circuit improperly found the case to be an exception to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, a 1976 federal law that sets limits on when other countries can face lawsuits in US courts.

"Although the decision does not conflict with any decision of another court of appeals, the Court may wish to grant the petition, vacate the judgement of the court of appeals and remand to that court for further consideration".

The case, which was filed in 2002, does not directly address questions raised in a separate lawsuit in Kentucky alleging that US bishops are employees of the Holy See.

But the Vatican plans to argue that Catholic dioceses are run as separate entities from the Holy See, and that the only authority that the pontiff has over bishops around the world is a religious one, according to Jeffrey Lena, the Vatican's US attorney.

In recent months, large-scale pedophilia scandals have rocked the Roman Catholic Church in a number of countries, including Austria, Ireland, Pope Benedict XVI's native Germany and the United States.

Senior clerics have been accused of protecting the priests involved by moving them to other parishes -- where they sometimes offended again -- instead of handing them over to civil authorities for prosecution.

The pope, who has himself faced allegations implicating him in the scandal, has repeatedly said priests and religious workers guilty of child abuse should answer for their crimes in courts of law.

Fox News, other media outlets falsely tar Kagan on Vatican immunity

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it then it's fair to suggest it didn't happen.

However, if media outlets ignore widely reported and key news regarding a Supreme Court nominee -- which should have been assumptive in the first place -- questions of kneejerk bias are bound to emerge.

At the popular Beliefnet website, which Rupert Murdoch's Fox Entertainment Group acquired in late 2007, Nicole Neroulias writes, "Some good news for Pope Benedict: the Obama administration, in a brief filed by Solicitor General and Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan, has sided with the Vatican in the 2002 Oregon lawsuit pending SCOTUS review over sex abuse claims, saying that the Holy See has diplomatic immunity."

Kate Shellnut, reporting for The Houston Chronicle-owned Houston Belief (The Chonicle did endorse Obama in 2008, the first Democrat the paper backed since Lyndon Johnson in 1964), writes, "Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan, acting as Solicitor General, filed a brief last week granting the Vatican diplomatic immunity over a lawsuit brought against the Roman Catholic Church for sexually abusive priests."

And Fox News reports, "The office, headed by Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan, argued that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals -- which lifted the Vatican's immunity in the Oregon priest case -- should not have treated the case as an exception to a 1976 federal law that limits when foreign countries can face charges in the U.S. judicial system."

But Kagan's name doesn't appear anywhere in the brief (pdf link), since she stepped aside over two weeks ago, as the Associated Press noted last week.

Kagan wrote a letter to the Supreme Court on Monday, saying her deputy, Neal Kumar Katyal, will serve as acting solicitor general in light of her nomination.

"I ask that you please address future correspondence from the Court to him, and that the Court's docket sheets reflect his designation as Counsel of Record," Kagan said in a letter to Supreme Court Clerk William Suter.

....

The solicitor general is the top government lawyer who argues the administration's cases before the Supreme Court.

Katyal's promotion was effective as of May 10, the date President Barack Obama nominated Kagan to the high court as the replacement for retiring Justice John Paul Stevens.

Of course, if Kagan hadn't been nominated, chances are she would have done the same as Katyal, since both previous presidential administrations sided with the Vatican on similar cases.

In 2005, the Associated Press reported, "The U.S. Justice Department has told a Texas court that a lawsuit accusing Pope Benedict XVI of conspiring to cover up the sexual molestation of three boys by a seminarian should be dismissed because the pontiff enjoys immunity as head of state of the Holy See."

Assistant U.S. Attorney General Peter Keisler said in Monday's filing that allowing the lawsuit to proceed would be "incompatible with the United States' foreign policy interests."

There was no immediate ruling from Judge Lee Rosenthal of the U.S. District Court for the southern district of Texas in Houston. However, U.S. courts have been bound by such "suggestion of immunity" motions submitted by the government, Keisler's filing says.

A 1994 lawsuit against Pope John Paul II (search), also filed in Texas, was dismissed after the U.S. government filed a similar motion.

But blaming Obama's Supreme Court nominee makes for better copy at some outlets, apparently.

from the raw story here;
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0525/obama-backs-catholic-church-immunity-claim-sexual-abuse-lawsuits/

[Beren]

Of course! How can it be different when they work hand in hand...

[giovonni]

Of course! How can it be different when they work hand in hand...

:yes4:

thank you Beren~ for pointing that out

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/cnishared/tools/shared/mediahub/09/21/17/slideshow_1172190_161114_Obama_Vatican_VATH11.JPG
http://blog.cleveland.com/world_impact/2009/07/large_obama-pope.jpg

[Beren]

What a cute couple and a granddad...
Amazing people ,really inspiring along with old man...

It just stinks that they work for the dark side...:twitch:

[giovonni]

Here I think is a reasonable assessment of where the Catholic sexual abuse scandal stands.


Looking behind the Catholic sex abuse scandal

By Aidan Lewis
BBC News


http://www.newprophecy.net/Catholic_and_Anglican_churches_unite.jpg


In recent months allegations and admissions of child abuse by priests have shaken the Roman Catholic Church to its core, as a continuous stream of cases has surfaced across Western Europe and beyond.

The Vatican has defended itself by suggesting this is a problem that affects society as a whole, and that the Church has now taken steps to deal with it - an approach that has often provoked more anger and frustration among critics who believe it systematically covered up many cases.

With allegations still surfacing, there is no conclusive account of the extent of Catholic abuse worldwide or its causes.

But current research and expert opinion suggest that men within the Catholic Church may be no more likely than others to abuse, and that the prevalence of abuse by priests has fallen sharply in the last 20-30 years.

What has made the crisis stand out are the cover-ups and other alleged shortcomings in the way abuse was dealt with.

"The real problem is an abuse of authority, the duty of care that pastors have to their flocks," says the British historian, and former member of the Jesuit Catholic order, Michael Walsh.

"This has been abused and that is the greatest scandal - that's what is systemic, rather than sex abuse."

'Social problem''

The best-known study on sex abuse by Catholic priests was published in the US, by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Commissioned by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, its main findings were published in 2004, two years after abuse cases threw the Church there into turmoil.

The study established that the vast majority of known cases in the US happened decades ago, though they were only reported much more recently.

“ There is a big gap between the reality and the public debate ”
Christian Pfeiffer Criminality Research Institute of Lower Saxony

Some 4% of American priests and deacons in active ministry were accused of abusing children in cases dating to the years between 1950 and 2002, the study found, with 75% of the abuses alleged to have taken place from 1960-1984.

The authors of the study say they do not have data on abuse by other, comparative groups in the US - though research on the boy scouts is currently being compiled. But they stress that cases involving Catholic priests should be seen within the broader context of the widespread sexual abuse of children.

"If you think about the vast number of youth that are affected by this you have to look at this as an overall social problem of significant dimensions," says one of the report's researchers, Margaret Smith.

Abuse 'reduced'

In Europe, the reporting of cases has accelerated more recently, though the emerging patterns are not uniform and the picture is still patchy.

In Germany, the birthplace of Pope Benedict XVI and one of the countries where the Church has come under the most pressure, abuse by priests seems to have been most widespread several decades ago - as in the US - but also relatively contained.

Christian Pfeiffer, the director of the independent Criminality Research Institute of Lower Saxony and a former regional justice minister, says about 150 priests in Germany have been accused of abuse alleged to have taken place since 1990.

That is about 0.1% of the 138,000 active priests in the country, he says - though he estimates that the rate of abuse was higher in earlier decades.

"We assume that three-quarters of the cases are old cases from the 50s, 60s and 70s," says Mr Pfeiffer, who has approached German Church authorities about doing a full study of the issue.

In Ireland, where about 1,000 witnesses told the 2009 Ryan report on abuse in Catholic institutions that they had been victims of sexual abuse, that abuse is thought to have peaked at a similar time.

Mr Pfeiffer says that in Germany, the attention the subject has gained has led to misconceptions about the extent of abuse.

"There is a big gap between the reality and the public debate," he says.

"I can understand that people are angry at the Church because it was terrible how they treated the victims, how they treated the offenders.

"But the public assumption that the German Roman Catholic Church has the same kind of problem as those in Ireland or the United States is wrong, as the quantity is much smaller."

Overall, from 2001-2010 the Vatican has considered sex abuse allegations concerning about 3,000 priests dating back up to 50 years, according to figures given last month by Monsignor Charles J Scicluna, who as the Vatican's Promoter of Justice heads the office that investigates such cases.

Though the cases were spreading geographically, "the phenomenon itself is much reduced," he said, noting that there are 400,000 priests worldwide.

Celibacy 'challenge'

Amid intense media attention, questions have been asked - sometimes by Roman Catholics - about whether there are aspects of Catholic priestly life that encourage abuse.

“ The vast majority of child abuse... is carried out by men who are heterosexual, and many of whom are married ”
Margaret Smith Researcher, John Jay report on clerical abuse

Particular attention has focused on celibacy, though many experts dismiss the idea that this could be a direct cause of abuse.

"Celibacy can indeed be a challenge but the vast majority of sexual abuse is not committed by celibates," says Ms Smith. "We found 4% [of priests] involved in child abuse - that means for 96% celibacy did not present a challenge in terms of child abuse."

Mr Pfeiffer says that in Germany, young priests have told him it would be possible to have sexual relationships with women if they really wanted to - lessening the risk of sexual frustration leading to abuse.

But he also raises the "hypothesis" that paedophiles - who only represent a small minority of abuses - might "become priests because they want to be protected against their hidden ideas".

Earlier this month Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's secretary of state, rejected any relationship between abuse and celibacy, linking it instead to homosexuality.

The remarks caused outrage among gay groups, and while research shows that most US victims were teenage boys, that is thought to be because this was the group to which priests had most access. "The vast majority of child abuse [against] both male and female is carried out by men who are heterosexual, and many of whom are married," notes Ms Smith.

She said she had been asked by a bishop whether there was a greater risk of abuse from homosexual candidates for the priesthood entering the seminary today. "I said 'no, our research does not sustain that.'"

Blind eye

Whilst the John Jay has yet to publish a new report on the context and causes of abuse in the US, research to date points to a background of poor screening and training of priests, an over-reliance on psychologists, psychiatrists and lawyers, and an atmosphere of complicity in which people both inside and outside the Church often turned a blind eye to abuse.

In a letter to the Irish people published in March, the Pope placed abuse in the context of "the rapid transformation and secularisation of society", and mentioned a "well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches".

But the idea that secularisation fuelled abuse was challenged by Katarina Schuth, a US expert on seminaries who has worked recently in Europe. She noted that cases appear to have dropped off in the 1990s, even as the social changes continued.

Ms Smith suggests social transformations did play a role in the US in that priests with "little explicit preparation... were responding individually to some of the social influences that the 1960s and early 1970s brought to bear." But she and Ms Schuth say steps have now been taken to improve screening and training.

"Reports often present the risk as if it were equivalent now to 1980. We don't see that in the United States," she says.

Whatever the prevalence and causes of abuse, some are warning that the scandal will smoulder on unless institutional changes are made.

Mr Walsh, the former Jesuit, says the crisis of authority that the allegations have brought about "arises out of a culture among the clergy" - one he thinks is reinforced by the insular nature of celibate life.

"That is why I think it's such a threat to the Church and it can only be changed by a regime change, a change at the top, because the Vatican's model is this authoritarian approach to Catholicism and the priests just pick it up."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/8654789.stm

Published: 2010/05/04 08:09:32 GMT

© BBC MMX

[noxon medem]

( comment coming )

- for now, a simple picture of a light-switch. (real)
Someone thought that was a clever design ..

1222
( click on image to view )

- Know it depends on the imagination, but come on .!.

[noxon medem]

Institutionalized belief, especially one that has grown so big and powerful as the catholic church, will allmost naturaly
decay to selfpromoting, selfprotecting protocol and empty rituals, from a starting of true passion and heartfelt belief.

And the more power the institution gather, the bigger the potensial to gather even more, and the bigger chance of
attracting negative forces that seeks the position to rule, not to serve.

If the church closes the walls around itself,
and starts ruling by strict dogma, and stops interacting with the true believers and the society and time were it excist,
then it will start degrading, both on a spiritual and institutional level. Like any institution,
or any physical or mental area of matter will degrade by nature,

if it is sealed off in a confined and closed space, away from the changing and regenarating force
of the bigger, whole, creation. This goes for any group of any kind of belief or physical presence,
if they close them self off in glory of their own supremacy,
they will decay from either mental or physical inbreeding.

The abuse of children in the catholic church is an example of degeneration in a closed,
powerful system or institution.

In their case it is natural to connect the problem with their dogma of celibacy for their priests,
were they are not allowed to live natural with the very strong force of sexuality,
and the strict rules are forcing any such activity into the dark,
where it is more easily perverted.

Priests are basicly humans, and for a lot of them the celibacy will not have the intended effect
of elevating their spirit and consciousness above the mundane physical excistense,
but will instead leave them frustrated with urges they can not handle, and with little or no possibility
to release, and there is probably a poor climate to debate it inside the church.

There are close to 50 million catholic priests in the world, and even if just a small percentage of them turn to negative,
unhealthy sexual practises, it makes up a big number of offenders,
and even bigger number of victims.

The institutional construct also makes it difficult for the church to deal with the subject of abuse, or sexual conduct at all,
and the mechanisms of denial and supression can easily become the
dominant forces in dealing with any problem in that field.

They must discuss the celibacy as part of the process that now has started to open up this sensitive subject,
and airing out and cleaning up the dirt from the darkend corners.
Love and wisdom, and courage, will equip them to face the difficult matters openly,
and they just have to hope that the many followers and victims have a greater sens of forgiveness
for sins and personal transgression,then the church itself has portraid on many occations.

I found this picture of a stained glass window. Interpret at your own disrecion.

1219

(click on image to view)

[RedeZra]

And the more power the institution gather, the bigger the potensial to gather even more, and the bigger chance of
attracting negative forces that seeks the position to rule, not to serve.



the governments are powerful

the state is in charge from cradle to grave


the church shines a light on an afterlife

so it still stands

as long as people has hopes for a better life here and hereafter


the state kicked the church to the curve a long time ago


the ambition for personal power is not with the clerics of the church

but the nobles and the bourgeois of the lodges


if one misses this point

that masons rule at least the Western world

as representatives of the governments and the law and order

one is not capable to connect the dots


our leaders come from a secret society

there is the core of the problems

[PathWalker]

Jordan Maxwell in his latest interview with Kerry stated that the Vatican is the biggest crime organization.
And a crime organization that is seeking power and control (money is not the goal any more, just a mean). Run by reptilians.

The Vatican demise is welcomed and anticipated. Especially from a Jewish polarized view.
Never the less do not be fooled. Enemy of your enemy is not your friend.

[RedeZra]

Jordan Maxwell in his latest interview with Kerry stated that the Vatican is the biggest crime organization.
And a crime organization that is seeking power and control (money is not the goal any more, just a mean). Run by reptilians.




I like a good story but I prefer facts

so I don't base my world views on Mr Maxwell's claims of this and that


now take a deep breath and read this again

" run by reptilians "


you're kidding right

[giovonni]

Church Office Failed to Act on Abuse Scandal

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/07/02/world/02pope_337-span/jmp-POPE1-articleLarge.jpg
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1982. The office he led, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had been given authority over abuse cases in 1922, documents show and canon lawyers confirm.
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and DAVID M. HALBFINGER
Published: July 1, 2010

In its long struggle to grapple with sexual abuse, the Vatican often cites as a major turning point the decision in 2001 to give the office led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger the authority to cut through a morass of bureaucracy and handle abuse cases directly.

The decision, in an apostolic letter from Pope John Paul II, earned Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, a reputation as the Vatican insider who most clearly recognized the threat the spreading sexual abuse scandals posed to the Roman Catholic Church.

But church documents and interviews with canon lawyers and bishops cast that 2001 decision and the future pope’s track record in a new and less flattering light.

The Vatican took action only after bishops from English-speaking nations became so concerned about resistance from top church officials that the Vatican convened a secret meeting to hear their complaints — an extraordinary example of prelates from across the globe collectively pressing their superiors for reform, and one that had not previously been revealed.

And the policy that resulted from that meeting, in contrast to the way it has been described by the Vatican, was not a sharp break with past practices. It was mainly a belated reaffirmation of longstanding church procedures that at least one bishop attending the meeting argued had been ignored for too long, according to church documents and interviews.

The office led by Cardinal Ratzinger, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had actually been given authority over sexual abuse cases nearly 80 years earlier, in 1922, documents show and canon lawyers confirm. But for the two decades he was in charge of that office, the future pope never asserted that authority, failing to act even as the cases undermined the church’s credibility in the United States, Australia, Ireland and elsewhere.

Bishop Geoffrey Robinson, an outspoken auxiliary bishop emeritus from Sydney, Australia, who attended the secret meeting in 2000, said that despite numerous warnings, top Vatican officials, including Benedict, took far longer to wake up to the abuse problems than many local bishops did.

“Why did the Vatican end up so far behind the bishops out on the front line, who with all their faults, did change — they did develop,” he said. “Why was the Vatican so many years behind?”

Cardinal Ratzinger, of course, had not yet become pope, a divinely ordained office not accustomed to direction from below. John Paul, his longtime superior, often dismissed allegations of pedophilia by priests as an attack on the church by its enemies. Supporters say that Cardinal Ratzinger would have preferred to take steps earlier to stanch the damage in certain cases.

But the future pope, it is now clear, was also part of a culture of nonresponsibility, denial, legalistic foot-dragging and outright obstruction. More than any top Vatican official other than John Paul, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who might have taken decisive action in the 1990s to prevent the scandal from metastasizing in country after country, growing to such proportions that it now threatens to consume his own papacy.

As pope, Benedict has met with victims of sexual abuse three times. He belatedly reopened an investigation into the Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, a powerful religious order — and a protégé of John Paul’s — and ultimately removed him from ministry. He gave American bishops greater leeway to take a tough line on abuse in the United States, and recently accepted the resignations of several bishops elsewhere. And on June 11, at an event in St. Peter’s Square meant to celebrate priests, he begged “forgiveness from God and from the persons involved” and promised to do “everything possible” to prevent future abuse.

But today the abuse crisis is still raging in the Catholic heartland of Europe: civil investigators in Belgium last week took the rare step of raiding church headquarters and the home of a former archbishop. The Vatican under Benedict is still responding to abuse by priests at its own pace, and it is being besieged by an outside world that wants it to move faster and more decisively.

Vatican officials, who declined to answer detailed questions related to Benedict’s history, say that the church will announce another round of changes to its canon laws, as it did in 2001, so that the church can improve its response to the abuse problem.

But the suggestion that more reforms are ahead is a nod to the fact that there is still widespread confusion among many bishops about how to handle allegations of abuse, and that their approaches are remarkably uneven from country to country.

National bishops’ conferences in some countries have adopted their own norms and standards. But several decades after sexual abuse by priests became a problem, Benedict has not yet instituted a universal set of rules.

Scandal and Confusion

The sexual abuse scandal first caught much of the world’s attention in 2002, with reports that the Boston archdiocese had been covering up for molesters for years. But the alarm bells had already been sounding for nearly two decades in many countries. In Lafayette, La., in 1984, the Rev. Gilbert Gauthé admitted to molesting 37 youngsters. In 1989, a sensational case erupted at an orphanage in the Canadian province of Newfoundland. By the mid-1990s, about 40 priests and brothers in Australia faced abuse allegations. In 1994, the Irish government was brought down when it botched the extradition of a notorious pedophile priest.

Bishops had a variety of disciplinary tools at their disposal — including the power to remove accused priests from contact with children and to suspend them from ministry altogether — that they could use without the Vatican’s direct approval.

Some used this authority to sideline abusive priests, minimizing the damage inflicted on their victims. Other bishops clearly made things worse, by shuffling abusers from one assignment to the next, never telling parishioners or reporting priests to the police.

But as court cases, financial settlements and media coverage mounted, many prelates looked to the Vatican for leadership and clarity on how to prosecute abusers under canon law and when to bring cases to the attention of the civil authorities. In the worst cases, involving serial offenders who denied culpability and resisted discipline, some bishops sought the Vatican’s guidance on how to dismiss them from the priesthood.

For this, bishops needed the Vatican’s help. Dismissing a priest is not like disbarring a lawyer or stripping a doctor of his medical license. In Catholic theology, ordaining a priest creates an indelible mark; to return him to the lay state required the approval of the pope.

Yet throughout the ’80s and ’90s, bishops who sought to penalize and dismiss abusive priests were daunted by a bewildering bureaucratic and canonical legal process, with contradicting laws and overlapping jurisdictions in Rome, according to church documents and interviews with bishops and canon lawyers.

Besides Cardinal Ratzinger’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, bishops were sending off their files on abuse cases to the Congregations for the Clergy, for Bishops, for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and for the Evangelization of Peoples — plus the Vatican’s Secretariat of State; its appeals court, the Apostolic Signatura; and the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts.

“There was confusion everywhere,” said Archbishop Philip Edward Wilson of Adelaide, Australia.

A new Code of Canon Law issued in 1983 only muddied things further, among other things by setting a five-year statute of limitations within which abuse cases could be prosecuted.

During this period, the three dozen staff members working for Cardinal Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were busy pursuing other problems. These included examining supernatural phenomena, like apparitions of the Virgin Mary, so that hoaxes did not “corrupt the faith,” according to the Rev. Brian Mulcahy, a former member of the staff. Other sections weighed requests by divorced Catholics to remarry and vetted the applications of former priests who wanted to be reinstated.

The heart of the office, though, was its doctrinal section. Cardinal Ratzinger, a German theologian appointed prefect of the congregation in 1981, aimed his renowned intellectual firepower at what he saw as “a fundamental threat to the faith of the church” — the liberation theology movement sweeping across Latin America.

As Father Gauthé was being prosecuted in Louisiana, Cardinal Ratzinger was publicly disciplining priests in Brazil and Peru for preaching that the church should work to empower the poor and oppressed, which the cardinal saw as a Marxist-inspired distortion of church doctrine. Later, he also reined in a Dutch theologian who thought lay people should be able to perform priestly functions, and an American who taught that Catholics could dissent from church teachings about abortion, birth control, divorce and homosexuality.

Different Focus for Cardinal

Cardinal Ratzinger also focused on reining in national bishops’ conferences, several of which, independent of Rome, had begun confronting the sexual abuse crisis and devising policies to address it in their countries. He declared that such conferences had “no theological basis” and “do not belong to the structure of the church.” Individual bishops, he reaffirmed, reigned supreme in their dioceses and reported only to the authority of the pope in Rome.

Another hint of his priorities came at a synod in 1990, when a bishop from Calgary gingerly mentioned the growing sexual abuse problem in Canada. When Cardinal Ratzinger rose to speak, however, it was of a different crisis: the diminishing image of the priesthood since the Second Vatican Council, and the “huge drop” in the numbers of priests as many resigned.

That concern — that the irrevocable commitment to the priesthood was being undermined by the exodus of priests leaving to marry or because they were simply disenchanted — had already led Cardinal Ratzinger to block the dismissal of at least one priest convicted of molestation, documents show.

“Look at it from the perspective of priestly commitment,” said the Rev. Joseph Fessio, a former student of Cardinal Ratzinger’s and founder of the conservative publishing house Ignatius Press. “You want to get married? You’re still a priest. You’re a sex offender? Well, you’re still a priest. Rome is looking at it from the objective reality of the priesthood.”

After another abuse scandal in 1992 in Fall River, Mass., bishops in the United States pressed the Vatican for an alternative to the slow and arcane canonical justice system. Without a full canonical trial, clerics accused of abuse could not be dismissed from the priesthood against their will (although a bishop could impose some restrictions short of that). In 1993, John Paul said he had heard the American bishops’ pleas and convened a joint commission of American and Vatican canonists to propose improvements.

John Paul rejected its proposal to let bishops dismiss priests using administrative procedures, without canonical trials. But he agreed to raise the age of majority to 18 from 16 for child-molestation cases. More important, he extended the statute of limitations to 10 years after the victim’s 18th birthday.

It is not known whether Cardinal Ratzinger spoke up in the internal deliberations that led to the two changes, which applied only to the United States.

But those changes clearly did not go far enough. And as the crisis steadily spread in other countries, bishops and church administrators from across the English-speaking world began meeting to compare notes on how to respond to it. After gathering on their own in 1996 and 1998, they demanded that the Curia, the Vatican’s administration, meet with them in Rome in 2000.

Frustrations Boil Over

The visiting bishops had reached the boiling point. After flailing about for 20 years, with little guidance from Rome, as stories about pedophile priests embroiled the church in lawsuits, shame and scandal, they had flown in to Rome from Australia, Canada, England and Wales, Ireland, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa, the United States and the West Indies.

Many came out of frustration: the Vatican had too often thwarted bishops’ attempts to oust pedophile priests in their jurisdictions. Yet they had high hopes that they would make the case for reform. Nearly every major Vatican office was represented in the gathering, held in the same Vatican hotel that was built to house cardinals electing a new pope.

“The message we wanted to get across was: if individuals are to hide behind church law and use that law to impede the ability of bishops to discipline priests, then we have to have a new way of moving forward,” said Eamonn Walsh, auxiliary bishop of Dublin, one of 17 bishops who attended from overseas. (He was one of several Irish bishops who offered the pope their resignations last year because of the abuse scandal, but his has not been accepted.)

Yet many at the meeting grew dismayed as, over four long days in early April 2000, they heard senior Vatican officials dismiss clergy sexual abuse as a problem confined to the English-speaking world, and emphasize the need to protect the rights of accused priests over ensuring the safety of children, according to interviews with 10 church officials who attended the meeting.

Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, then the head of the Congregation for the Clergy, set the tone, playing down sexual abuse as an unavoidable fact of life, and complaining that lawyers and the media were unfairly focused on it, according to a copy of his prepared remarks. What is more, he asked, is it not contradictory for people to be so outraged by sexual abuse when society also promotes sexual liberation?

Another Vatican participant even observed that many pedophile priests had Irish surnames, a remark that offended delegates from Ireland.

“Prejudices came out,” said Bishop Robinson of Australia. “There were some very silly things said at times.”

Though disappointed, the visiting bishops were not entirely surprised.

“It wasn’t that there was bad will in Rome,” Bishop Walsh said. “They just didn’t have the firsthand experience that the dioceses were having around the world — experience with the manipulative, devious ways of the perpetrators. If the perpetrator said, ‘I didn’t do it,’ they would say, ‘He wouldn’t be telling a lie, he has to be telling the truth, and he’s innocent until proven guilty.’ ”

An exception to the prevailing attitude, several participants recalled, was Cardinal Ratzinger. He attended the sessions only intermittently and seldom spoke up. But in his only extended remarks, he made clear that he saw things differently from others in the Curia.

“The speech he gave was an analysis of the situation, the horrible nature of the crime, and that it had to be responded to promptly,” recalled Archbishop Wilson of Australia, who was at the meeting in 2000. “I felt, this guy gets it, he’s understanding the situation we’re facing. At long last, we’ll be able to move forward.”

Clarity Comes in a Letter

Even so, the meeting served as much to expose Cardinal Ratzinger’s inattention to the problem as it did to showcase his new attitude.

Archbishop Wilson said in an interview that during the session he had to call Vatican officials’ attention to long-ignored papal instructions, dating from 1922, and reissued in 1962, that gave Cardinal Ratzinger’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, previously known as the Holy Office, sole responsibility for deciding cases of priests accused of particularly heinous offenses: solicitation of sex during confession, homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

Archbishop Wilson said he had stumbled across the old instructions as a canon law student in the early 1990s. And he eventually learned that canonists were deeply divided on whether the old instructions or the 1983 canon law — which were at odds on major points — should hold sway.

If the old instructions had prevailed, then there would be no cause for confusion among bishops across the globe: all sexual abuse cases would fall under Cardinal Ratzinger’s jurisdiction.

(The Vatican has recently insisted that Cardinal Ratzinger’s office was responsible only for cases related to priests who solicited sex in the confessional, but the 1922 instructions plainly gave his office jurisdiction over sexual abuse cases involving “youths of either sex” that did not involve violating the sacrament of confession.)

Few people in the room had any idea what Archbishop Wilson was talking about, other participants recalled. But Archbishop Wilson said he had discussed the old papal instructions with Cardinal Ratzinger’s office in the late 1990s and had been told that they indeed were the prevailing law in pedophilia cases.

Just over a year later, in May 2001, John Paul issued a confidential apostolic letter instructing that all cases of sexual abuse by priests were thenceforth to be handled by Cardinal Ratzinger’s office. The letter was called “Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela,” Latin for “Safeguarding the Sanctity of the Sacraments.”

In an accompanying cover letter, Cardinal Ratzinger, who is said to have been heavily involved in drafting the main document, wrote that the 1922 and 1962 instructions that gave his office authority over sexual abuse by priests cases were “in force until now.”

The upshot of that phrase, experts say, is that Catholic bishops around the world, who had been so confused for so long about what to do about molestation cases, could and should have simply directed them to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith all along.

Bishops and canon law experts said in interviews that they could only speculate as to why the future pope had not made this clear many years earlier.

“It makes no sense to me that they were sitting on this document,” said the Rev. John P. Beal, a canon law professor at the Catholic University of America. “Why didn’t they just say, ‘Here are the norms. If you need a copy we’ll send them to you?’ ”

Nicholas P. Cafardi, a Catholic expert in canon law who is dean emeritus and professor of law at Duquesne University School of Law, said, “When it came to handling child sexual abuse by priests, our legal system fell apart.”

There was additional confusion over the statute of limitations for sexual abuse cases — or whether there even was one, given the Vatican’s reaffirmation of the 1922 and 1962 papal instructions. Many bishops had believed that they could not prosecute cases against priests because they exceeded the five-year statute of limitations enacted in 1983, effectively shielding many molesters since victims of child abuse rarely came forward until they were well into adulthood.

Mr. Cafardi, who is also the author of “Before Dallas: The U.S. Bishops’ Response to Clergy Sexual Abuse of Children,” argued that another effect of the 2001 apostolic letter was to impose a 10-year statute of limitations on pedophilia cases where, under a careful reading of canon law, none had previously applied.

“When you think how much pain could’ve been prevented, if we only had a clear understanding of our own law,” he said. “It really is a terrible irony. This did not have to happen.”

Though the apostolic letter was praised for bringing clarity to the subject, it also reaffirmed a requirement that such cases be handled with the utmost confidentiality, under the “pontifical secret” — drawing criticism from many who argued that the church remained unwilling to report abusers to civil law enforcement.

Reforms, but Limited Reach

After the new procedures were adopted, Cardinal Ratzinger’s office became more responsive to requests to discipline priests, said bishops who sought help from his office. But when the sexual abuse scandal erupted again, in Boston in 2002, it immediately became clear to American bishops that the new procedures were inadequate.

Meeting in Dallas in the summer of 2002, the American bishops adopted a stronger set of canonical norms requiring bishops to report all criminal allegations to the secular authorities, and to permanently remove from ministry priests facing even one credible accusation of abuse. They also sought from the Vatican a streamlined way to discipline priests that would not require a drawn-out canonical trial.

The Vatican initially rejected the American bishops’ proposed norms. A committee of American bishops and Vatican officials, including Cardinal Ratzinger’s deputy, watered down the American mandatory-reporting requirement to say only that bishops must comply with civil laws on reporting crimes, which vary widely from place to place.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reserved for itself the power to dismiss a man from the priesthood without a full canonical trial — the kind of administrative remedy that American bishops had long been begging the Vatican to delegate to them.

Even so, the American bishops got most of what they asked for, and Cardinal Ratzinger was their advocate, said Archbishop Wilton D. Gregory, then the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The Americans were allowed to keep their zero-tolerance provision for abusive priests, making the rules for the church in the United States far more stringent than in most of the rest of the world. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith also said it would waive the statute of limitations on a case-by-case basis if bishops asked.

Archbishop Gregory said he made 13 trips to Rome in three years, almost always meeting with Cardinal Ratzinger.

“He was extraordinarily supportive of what we were doing,” Archbishop Gregory said in an interview.

Other reforms enacted by American bishops included requiring background checks for church personnel working with children, improved screening of seminarians, training in recognizing abuse, annual compliance audits in each diocese and lay review boards to advise bishops on how to deal with abuse cases.

Those measures seem to be having an impact. Last year, according to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 513 people made allegations of sexual abuse against 346 priests or other church officials, roughly a third fewer cases than in 2008.

Yet the Vatican did not proactively apply those policies to other countries, and it is only now grappling with abuse problems elsewhere. Reports have surfaced of bishops in Chile, Brazil, India and Italy who quietly kept accused priests in ministry without informing local parishioners or prosecutors.

Benedict, now five years into his papacy, has yet to make clear if he intends to demand of bishops throughout the world — and of his own Curia — that all priests who committed abuse and bishops who abetted it must be punished.

As the crisis has mushroomed internationally this year, some cardinals in the Vatican have continued to blame the news media and label the criticism anti-Catholic persecution. Benedict himself has veered from defensiveness to contrition, saying in March that the faithful should not be intimidated by “the petty gossip of dominant opinion” — and then in May telling reporters that “the greatest persecution of the church does not come from the enemies outside, but is born from the sin in the church.”

The Vatican, moreover, has never made it mandatory for bishops around the world to report molesters to the civil authorities, or to alert parishes and communities where the abusive priests worked — information that often propels more victims to step forward. (Vatican officials caution that a reporting requirement could be dangerous in dictatorships and countries where the church is already subject to persecution.)

It was only in April that the Vatican posted “guidelines” on its Web site saying that church officials should comply with civil laws on reporting abuse. But those are recommendations, not requirements.

Today, a debate is roiling the Vatican, pitting those who see the American zero-tolerance norms as problematic because they lack due process for accused priests, against those who want to change canon law to make it easier to penalize and dismiss priests.

Where Benedict lies on this spectrum, even after nearly three decades of handling abuse cases, is still an open question. :confused:

Rachel Donadio contributed reporting from Rome.

original story link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/world/europe/02pope.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

[PathWalker]

" run by reptilians "


you're kidding right

No I am not kidding I am bringing the information from Jordan Maxwell interviews with Bill and Kerry
Here (http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/david_icke_jordan_maxwell_en.html)and Here (http://projectcamelot.org/jordan_maxwell.html).

Better research who is Jordan Maxwell and why he gained such great esteem by both Bill and Kerry.

[Steven]

I like a good story but I prefer facts

so I don't base my world views on Mr Maxwell's claims of this and that


now take a deep breath and read this again

" run by reptilians "


you're kidding right


RedeZra, since the time you are here, it shouldn't surprise you. Jordan is not the only one talking about reptilians.
Credo Mutwa has a lot to say about "the reptilian agenda" and if you prefer facts, Credo has predicted the oil spill, first in the "90" and confirmed it in January this year. It makes him an unavoidable man to listen to what he has to say. I've heard so many predictions that never came to be true here on Avalon. Now, that we have a man that knows is material, we should be all ears. He his far from kidding. Just like the Pathwalker and Jordan Maxwell.

Namaste, Steven

[RedeZra]

RedeZra, since the time you are here, it shouldn't surprise you. Jordan is not the only one talking about reptilians.
Credo Mutwa has a lot to say about "the reptilian agenda" ...



right I am not so surprised


Credo brings some credence but I need a little bit of evidence

before I believe

this reptilian agenda

as a fact of nature and not a freak of mind


til then to me

dino is not back with a vengance

at least not without help from some of our crazy scientists

now that is not impossible

[Steven]

[I][CENTER]...as a fact of nature and not a freak of mind...

Yes, to this, I totally agree. That is why digging deep with open mind is so important.

Namaste, Steven

[greybeard]

The concept of Reptilians I have the greatest problem with.
We all have a reptilian brain with the addition of a frontal cortex, thats a biological evolution fact.
Regarding the main topic.
There is great danger in labeling and putting everything in that box.
Its like saying all priest are not to be trusted near children.
A very small percentage of people from all walks of life prey on children.
Religion in general held the place for millions of people to become aware of God.
Once awareness of God is there then people can find there own way of developing their spirituality.
Lumping religion into a box of something to be avoided and worse is not helpful.
We may be moving to a place where religion becomes redundant but till then it serves a useful purpose, many benefit from it in countless ways.
With respect for all varying opinions
Chris

[PathWalker]

With all the respect, I would like to quote a known person in this forum who said: The truth will set you free but first will piss you off.
I invite you all to watch the recent interviews with David Icke and Jordan Maxwell.
As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.
So I try to look beyond the veil, I research the material from Jordan Maxwell and David Icke.
I learn to trust my senses as for what rings and what is dis-info.

So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.

Reptilians are what they are with a purpose. A predator has purpose as well as illness.
When our perception evolve beyond duality (bad/good, hate/love, male/female, ying/yang), our soul evolve. Still we have to stay in the dualistic/polerized reality since we came here with purpose and service. Every each one of us, soul bearing spiritual entities.

To cut the BS short. Take it all with a grain of salt, it is a game after all. The game never ends. Our soul never die.

[greybeard]

With all the respect, I would like to quote a known person in this forum who said: The truth will set you free but first will piss you off.
I invite you all to watch the recent interviews with David Icke and Jordan Maxwell.
As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.
So I try to look beyond the veil, I research the material from Jordan Maxwell and David Icke.
I learn to trust my senses as for what rings and what is dis-info.

So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.

Reptilians are what they are with a purpose. A predator has purpose as well as illness.
When our perception evolve beyond duality (bad/good, hate/love, male/female, ying/yang), our soul evolve. Still we have to stay in the dualistic/polerized reality since we came here with purpose and service. Every each one of us, soul bearing spiritual entities.

To cut the BS short. Take it all with a grain of salt, it is a game after all. The game never ends. Our soul never die.

Agreed
Ultimately only God is.
The rest is the in breath and out breath, Idras dream -- Maya ---- Illusion--- enjoy the play of consciousness.

Respectfully
Chris

[RedeZra]

As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.

So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.




the messenger is as important as the message

some are in it for the profit and some are out to fool us

so this calls for extreme discernments on the part of the researcher


one must be spiritual blind to not see the attack on religion and spiritual personages


we are not battling reptilians

but played by powerful brothers and sisters in high places


" we have met the enemy and he is us " - Pogo

[giovonni]

http://mchenrycountyblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Pogo-We-have-met-the-enemy-and-he-is-us.png
Pogo


most definitely :blink:

[PathWalker]

the messenger is as important as the message

we are not battling reptilians

but played by powerful brothers and sisters in high places


I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
We are now changing the game.
If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.

[greybeard]

I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
We are now changing the game.
If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.
Exactly!!!!
Thats it.
Nothing is ever solved at the level it was created.
The moment an enemy is perceived then the same energy is at play.
If they knew better they would do better.
Love is the substrate of all life we call on that energy then we shine the light on darkness till not even a shadow exists.
The analogy of light and darkness is correct in that darkness is an illusion.
Think not?
Then try shining darkness, it has no reality. Lol.
Darkness is the absence of light or in other words the absence of Love.

Chris

[RedeZra]

" we have met the enemy and he is us " - Pogo


as it has always been

humans deceiving and killing humans


are we not tired yet


how can it ever stop as long as we like to live a lie

that we are evolutionary animals or a genetic breed of aliens


Jesus didn't come to fool us and His words are here for all to see

but perhaps you live the lie that He didn't come and that His words are false


TPTB in the Western world will not live up to His commandments

they are born into houses of privilege and power and want to keep that by all means and at all costs for their own future lines


it's not so hard to understand


but why do you believe their lies

[Deega]

I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
We are now changing the game.
If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.

Yes PathWalker, you are right, "stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB", the game is, therefore, different and if we are able to add positive actions on it, we're leveraging.

Deega

[giovonni]

From http://www.catholicnews.com/images/h_shadow.jpg

NORMS-REVISION (UPDATED) Jul-9-2010 (630 words) xxxi

Revised Vatican norms to cover sex abuse, attempted women's ordination

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The Vatican is preparing to update the 2001 norms that deal with priestly sex abuse of minors, in effect codifying practices that have been in place for several years.

At the same time, it will include the "attempted ordination of women" among the list of most serious crimes against church law, or "delicta graviora," sources said.

Sexual abuse of a minor by a priest was added to the classification of "delicta graviora" in 2001. At that time the Vatican established norms to govern the handling of such cases.

The revisions of those norms have been in the pipeline for some time and were expected to be published in mid-July, Vatican sources said. While the changes are not "earthshaking," they will ultimately strengthen the church's efforts to identify and discipline priests who abuse minors, the sources said.

The revisions will be published with ample documentation and will be accompanied by a glossary of church law terms, aimed at helping nonexperts understand the complex rules and procedures that the Vatican has in place for dealing with sex abuse allegations.

The revisions were expected to extend the church law's statute of limitations on accusations of sexual abuse, from 10 years after the alleged victim's 18th birthday to 20 years. For several years, Vatican officials have been routinely granting exceptions to the 10-year statute of limitations.

The revisions also make it clear that use of child pornography would fall under the category of clerical sexual abuse of minors. In 2009, the Vatican determined that any instance of a priest downloading child pornography from the Internet would be a form of serious abuse that a bishop must report to the doctrinal congregation, which oversees cases of sexual abuse.

In addition, the revisions will make clear that abuse of mentally disabled adults will be considered equivalent to abuse of minors. In the law on the sexual abuse of minors, the term "minors" will include "persons of who suffer from permanent mental disability," sources said.

When Pope John Paul II promulgated the norms on priestly sex abuse in 2001, he gave the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith juridical control over such cases.

The revisions incorporate changes made by Pope John Paul in 2003; those simplified some of the procedures and gave the doctrinal congregation the power, in some "very grave and clear cases," to laicize without an ecclesiastical trial priests who have sexually abused minors.

In April, the Vatican placed online a guide to understanding the church's provisions for sex abuse cases. That guide mentioned the revisions under preparation and said those revisions would not change the basic procedures already in place.

The sources said the Vatican was not preparing to publish other documents on priestly sex abuse. Although some have argued that some of the strict sex abuse norms adopted by U.S. bishops in 2002 should be universalized, the sources said there was no imminent plan to do that.

Pope John Paul's 2001 document distinguished between two types of "most grave crimes," those committed in the celebration of the sacraments and those committed against morals. Among the sacramental crimes were such things as desecration of the Eucharist and violation of the seal of confession.

Under the new revisions, the "attempted ordination of women" will be listed among those crimes, as a serious violation of the sacrament of holy orders, informed sources said. As such, it will be handled under the procedures set up for investigating "delicta graviora" under the control of the doctrinal congregation.

In 2008, the doctrinal congregation formally decreed that a woman who attempts to be ordained a Catholic priest and the person attempting to ordain her are automatically excommunicated. In 1994, Pope John Paul said the church's ban on women priests is definitive and not open to debate among Catholics.

END

CNS link here;
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002793.htm

Copyright (c) 2010 Catholic News Service/USCCB. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed.
CNS · 3211 Fourth St NE · Washington DC 20017

[giovonni]

Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

Women's groups describe Vatican's decision on female ordination as 'appalling'

* John Hooper in Rome and Haroon Siddique
* guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 July 2010 21.03 BST


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/7/15/1279223965238/FRANCE-RELIGION-FEMME-PRE-006.jpg
FRANCE-RELIGION-FEMME-PRETRE Three ‘bishops’ at the ordination of a female French priest in Lyons in 2005. All four women were excommunicated. From left: South African Patricia Fresen, Austrian Christine Mayr-Lumetzberger and German Gisela Forster. Photograph: Jean-Pierre Clatot/AFP

It was meant to be the document that put a lid on the clerical sex abuse scandals that have swept the Roman Catholic world. But instead of quelling fury from within and without the church, the Vatican stoked the anger of liberal Catholics and women's groups by including a provision in its revised decree that made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes in ecclesiastical law.

The change put the "offence" on a par with the sex abuse of minors.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, called the document "one of the most insulting and misogynistic pronouncements that the Vatican has made for a very long time. Why any self-respecting woman would want to remain part of an organisation that regards their full and equal participation as a 'grave sin' is a mystery to me."

Vivienne Hayes, the chief executive of the Women's Resource Centre, said the decision to raise women's ordination to the level of a serious crime was "appalling".

She added: "This declaration is doubly disempowering for women as it also closes the door on dialogue around women's access to power and decision making, when they are still under-represented in all areas of political, religious and civic life. We would urge the Catholic church to acknowledge that women's rights are not incompatible with religious faith."

Ceri Goddard, chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said: "We are sure that the vast majority of the general public will share in our abject horror at the Vatican's decision to categorise the ordination of women as an 'offence' in the same category as paedophilia – deemed to be one of the 'gravest offences a priest can commit'.

"This statement follows a series where the Vatican, an institution which yields great influence and power not only in the Catholic community but also wider society, has pitched itself in direct opposition not only to women's rights but to our equal worth and value. We hope this is an issue that the government takes the opportunity to raise if it still feels the impending papal visit is appropriate."

The revision of a decree first issued nine years ago was intended to address the issue of clerical sex abuse. Last night it remained unclear why the Vatican had decided to invite further controversy by changing the status of women's ordination in canon law.

Since scandals blew up in Germany in January, five Roman Catholic bishops have resigned as evidence has come to light of priests who raped or molested children, and of superiors who turned a blind eye to safeguard the reputation of the church. Data from countries in which church membership is officially registered suggest tens of thousands of Catholics, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have abandoned their faith in disgust.

Father Federico Lombardi, the pope's spokesman, stressed that the new rules on sex abuse applied solely to procedures for defrocking priests under canon law. They had no bearing on whether suspected offenders were notified to the civil authorities – he said bishops had already been reminded of their duty to do so.

The most important change is to extend the period during which a clergyman can be tried by a church court from 10 to 20 years, dating from the 18th birthday of his victim. Many people who were abused by priests are unable to summon up the courage to come forward until well into adulthood.

The new norms also streamline the procedures for dealing with the most urgent and serious cases, enabling bishops to defrock priests without a long, costly trial. They put abuse of the mentally disabled on a level with that of minors. And they introduce a new crime of paedophile pornography, defined as "the acquisition, possession or disclosure" by a clergyman of pornographic images of children below the age of 14.

Monsignor Charles Scicluna, who helped overhaul the rules, said: "This gives a signal that we are very, very serious in our commitment to promote safe environments and to offer an adequate response to abuse."

Lombardi said the Vatican was working on further instructions "so that the directives it issues on the subject of sexual abuse of minors, either by the clergy or institutions connected with the church, may be increasingly rigorous, coherent and effective".

But Barbara Doris of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (Snap) said it was tackling the issue the wrong way round. "Defrocking a predator, by definition, is too late," she said. "Severe harm has already been done."

original story link here;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-declares-womens-ordination-grave-crime

[giovonni]

Love and Forgiveness

And God created man in His own image, in the image of God. He created him: man and female He created them
Genesis 1:27

The Last Prayer
"Beloved Father, do you think they understood the true meaning of my message, my life? That Ye are all Gods. That Ye do greater works than I, for I am leaving this plane. Do you think they understood my prayer when I said Beloved Father let them be one as we are one, that within them resides a loving, joyous, wise and powerful manifesting God waiting to unfold? Do you think they understood the true meaning of my death and my resurrection, which was to conquer the greatest of all challenges and fears, which is death itself? Do you think they understood unconditional love, infinite compassion and forgiveness? Will it take another 2,000 years of fear, unworthiness, separation, the worshiping and warring over names, images and doctrines before they find peace, unity and the God within them? Will they ever understand the one law which supersedes all laws, which is the law of love?

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
John 17:21



with much love and blessings~ to all my brothers and sister ~ giovonni

[greybeard]

Love and Forgiveness

And God created man in His own image, in the image of God. He created him: man and female He created them
Genesis 1:27

The Last Prayer
"Beloved Father, do you think they understood the true meaning of my message, my life? That Ye are all Gods. That Ye do greater works than I, for I am leaving this plane. Do you think they understood my prayer when I said Beloved Father let them be one as we are one, that within them resides a loving, joyous, wise and powerful manifesting God waiting to unfold? Do you think they understood the true meaning of my death and my resurrection, which was to conquer the greatest of all challenges and fears, which is death itself? Do you think they understood unconditional love, infinite compassion and forgiveness? Will it take another 2,000 years of fear, unworthiness, separation, the worshiping and warring over names, images and doctrines before they find peace, unity and the God within them? Will they ever understand the one law which supersedes all laws, which is the law of love?

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
John 17:21



with much love and blessings~ to all my brothers and sister ~ giovonni

Well that says it all Giovonni..
My knowledge of the bible is nonexistent so I really appreciate this.
Thanks

[greybeard]

Quote Originally Posted by giovonni View Post
Love and Forgiveness

And God created man in His own image, in the image of God. He created him: man and female He created them
Genesis 1:27

The Last Prayer
"Beloved Father, do you think they understood the true meaning of my message, my life? That Ye are all Gods. That Ye do greater works than I, for I am leaving this plane. Do you think they understood my prayer when I said Beloved Father let them be one as we are one, that within them resides a loving, joyous, wise and powerful manifesting God waiting to unfold? Do you think they understood the true meaning of my death and my resurrection, which was to conquer the greatest of all challenges and fears, which is death itself? Do you think they understood unconditional love, infinite compassion and forgiveness? Will it take another 2,000 years of fear, unworthiness, separation, the worshiping and warring over names, images and doctrines before they find peace, unity and the God within them? Will they ever understand the one law which supersedes all laws, which is the law of love?

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
John 17:21


The ego loves to dispense fear, if it comes up with a solution it seems clever and therefore not need in Divine assistance
Oneness is the greatest threat to its existence--- Non duality, Unity consciousness = no ego.
Chris

[MargueriteBee]

The only reason about the church saying that about women not being ordained is just to give people something else to get all riled up about. It's all about keeping people upset and unbalanced.

[ronbono57]

I must disagree if Christ came back he would vomit upon looking at the Vatican. It's a den of Satanist's, child molester's, and homosexuals to say the least. The Vatican is the complete opposite of the teachings of Christ. The Vatican hordes billions of dollars, and hides the true history, our history in its vaults. It is a den of evil pathetic people.

[giovonni]

We are witnessing an institution in severe crisis and possible disintegration :eek:

Catholic sex scandal as undercover reporter 'films priests at gay clubs and having casual flings'

By Nick Pisa
Last updated at 3:16 PM on 24th July 2010

A gay priest sex scandal has rocked the Catholic Church in Italy today after a weekly news magazine released details of a shock investigation it had carried out.

Using hidden cameras, a journalist from Panorama magazine - owned by Italian Prime Minister and media baron Silvio Berlusconi - filmed three priests as they attended gay nightspots and had casual sex.

Today there was no immediate comment from the Italian Bishops Conference and the Vatican - which has been rocked by a series of sex scandals involving paedophile priests since the start of the year.
A preview of the Panorama article sent out by email last night added that video footage from the investigation would be made available.

The article describes how the reporter was assisted by a gay 'accomplice' as they 'gate-crashed the wild nights of a number of priests in Rome who live a surprising double-life.'

In it's preview, Panorama added: 'By day they are regular priests, complete with dog collar, but, at night it's off with the cassock as they take their place as perfectly integrated members of the Italian capital's gay scene.'

Panorama described its investigation as 'deeply disturbing' as it detailed how three priests - two Italians and a Frenchman - happily took part in gay events and had casual sex.

The Catholic Church forbids priests to have sex and homosexuality is also seen as a 'sin' .

In 2008 the Vatican issued guidelines which said that any would be trainees should not join if they had 'deep-seated homosexual tendencies'.

In one part of the investigation Panorama said that one priest, named as Carlo, willingly put on his cassock to have sex with the reporter's gay accomplice, adding 'all of which was filmed by the hidden camera'.

The magazine also described how they had attended a Mass which was celebrated by Carlo.
In its preview Panorama insisted that it had carried out through checks and established that all three priests were bona fide but would not reveal their real names or any other details.

Panorama editor Giorgio Mule said: 'This was a two week investigation and was not aimed at creating a scandal but showing that a certain section of the clergy behaves very differently.'

original article link with photos;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1297083/Gay-priest-sex-scandal-undercover-Berlusconi-reporter-films-clerics-gay-clubs.html#

[RedeZra]

I must disagree if Christ came back he would vomit upon looking at the Vatican. It's a den of Satanist's, child molester's, and homosexuals to say the least. The Vatican is the complete opposite of the teachings of Christ. The Vatican hordes billions of dollars, and hides the true history, our history in its vaults. It is a den of evil pathetic people.

nah it's not as bad as our governments and our politicians - but it's getting there

[giovonni]

Pope Benedict XVI's 30-year campaign to reassert conservative Catholicism

http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/2010/0802-weekly/0802-opope-pope-catholic/8372348-1-eng-US/0802-OPOPE-pope-CATHOLIC_full_380.jpg

Pope Benedict XVI (at far end, c.) led a meeting at the Vatican in February to canonize five new church saints, including the first one from Australia, a 19thcentury nun.
(Osservatore Ro mano/Reuters)

By Robert Marquand, Staff writer
posted August 6, 2010 at 4:07 pm EDT

Some believe Pope Benedict XVI is 'the greatest scholar to rule the church since [Pope] Innocent III," in the 13th century. Child-abuse scandals have marred his tenure.
Munich and Tubingen, Germany —

In the past 30 years, the Vatican has moved strongly to reassert the authority of a traditional, even orthodox Roman Catholicism – to bring the notion of a "one true church" to Europe and then the larger world. The intent was to reverse the "open" or liberalizing trend of the church represented by Vatican II.

In the past three decades, the Vatican has cracked down on liberation theology, affirmed traditional sexual morality, and is now quietly supporting ultradevout Catholic groups such as Opus Dei and the Legions of Christ – while curbing ecumenical outreach and describing Protestant churches as not authentic.

The most constant, diligent, and serious champion of these moves is a shy but brilliant German theologian, Josef Ratzinger – now Pope Benedict XVI.

Princeton University Renaissance scholar Anthony Grafton, not a Catholic, says Pope Benedict is "probably the greatest scholar to rule the church since [Pope] Innocent III," in the 13th century.

"There is no great issue, no direction in Catholic theology, not dominated by Ratzinger over the past three decades," says Hermann Häring, a liberal Jesuit theologian who studied with Ratzinger and has written a book about his theology.

Yet a grand effort to restore authority and make the church purer coincides with an epic impurity – abuse of children by thousands of priests and many bishops in the United States, Europe, and elsewhere. To understand Pope Benedict's past, present, and perhaps future responses to the sexual abuse crisis, one must examine the arc of his religious life.

His vision for reforming the Catholic Church was often so all-absorbing that pedophilia got swept under the Vatican carpet, sources say. At the same time, a crackdown on Vatican II – the controversial three-year papal council in the mid-1960s – amplified a culture of fear, secrecy, and hierarchy. "Many rules and codes came down, but efforts to talk 'up' were thwarted," says a Jesuit official in Germany with knowledge of the issue.

"[Pope] John Paul II was the face of the church's world mission, while Ratzinger stayed in Rome, working the books, making rules as the pope's enforcer," says Karl Josef Kuschel at the University of Tubingen seminary in Germany. "Ratzinger has been appointing bishops for 30 years. It is now his church. The bishops today were chosen exactly because they agreed with him."

In dozens of interviews with church officials and theologians in Germany, the US, Spain, and France, many Catholics say the Vatican is not missing cues nor "tone deaf" in its handling of pedophilia. Rather, the abuse cases are playing out fitfully within the pope's vision of the church as ultimate arbiter of spiritual authority, Scripture, and holiness on earth. In this sense, the Vatican is not looking to adapt, modernize, or open itself to new interpretations. Recent Vatican statements against women's ordination, and reaffirming priestly celibacy, are small examples.

"The world is evil and the church is pure," says an Austrian church official. "This is serious for Benedict. He doesn't want the church to be a joke. He's suspicious of chaos and avoidance of discipline and order, and of human efforts to adopt popular culture and create church out of the world, instead of a church that transforms the world. This deeply upsets him. He sees all salvation taking place inside the Catholic Church. He believes that."

Yet ironically, child abuse has arguably brought greater disorder than the ferment of Vatican II in the late 1960s. This spring, the pope described pedophilia as "the petty gossip of dominant opinion" before shifting 180 degrees and asking contrition from St. Peter's Basilica on June 11: "We ... insistently beg forgiveness from God and from the persons involved, while promising to do everything possible to ensure that such abuse will never occur again."

From progressive to traditionalist

Ratzinger was not always seen as the conservative enforcer of Catholic doctrine. In 1965, the arrival of Ratzinger to the theology faculty at Tubingen brought a stir of anticipation. Ratzinger's bestselling "Introduction to Christianity" seemed a new impulse for democracy and freedom. The school had a joint Protestant-Catholic faculty. Change was in the air. Ratzinger was brought in by Hans Kung, a progressive young Swiss lion of Vatican II; for a time, it looked as if the two men were at the start of a beautiful friendship.

Nazism and the war had disturbed young German Catholics who were suspicious of absolute ideology. Vatican II appeared to "open" the church and allow dialogue and airing of views without fear of ecclesiastical reprisal. At Tubingen, Protestants partook of Catholic learning; Catholics learned Protestant concepts of scriptural interpretation and subjective ideas about spirituality from the teachings of Swiss theologian Karl Barth and German theologian Rudolph Bultmann.

Yet Ratzinger's first lecture to the joint faculty, an important tradition for new professors, was surprising. He spoke on "The significance of the church fathers for Christianity." Mr. Kung was "a little shocked," says Professor Häring. "Rat*zinger was saying the basis of true theology was not the Bible, but the Bible as interpreted by five centuries of church fathers. He was basically telling the Protestant faculty, 'Get lost.' He was saying you must return to Greek theology ... to Hellenism."

The student protest marches at Tubin*gen in the '60s were a watershed for Rat*zinger, moving him toward conservatism. He departed to a quiet Bavarian college. He wrote against democracy in the church, berated the influence of Marxism, and criticized what he called "the dictatorship of relativism." He disliked the language of individualism, of crisis of faith, the search for freedom and meaning, and existential moments. "He saw it as individuals separated from the collective institution of church, where salvation and meaning are found. In service to the true church, one found a new life," says Professor Kuschel.

In 1977, Ratzinger became archbishop of Munich and Freising. Former Jesuit Paul Imhoff remembers Ratzinger as absorbed in medieval Catholicism. Mr. Imhoff, who was ordained by Ratzinger before leaving the church to marry a theology student, went to a "professors' carnival" with him. "We had jokes, dancing, harmless fun ... Ratzinger was charming. But the whole time he spoke about restoring the old Europe ... where the church takes precedence over the state."

Pedophilia not on his radar

Pedophilia cases started mounting in Vatican files in the 1980s. But now, as head of church discipline, Ratzinger was primarily focused on silencing priests or liberation theologians, such as the Brazilian Leo*nardo Boff, who tried to empower farm*ers and peasants. The 1990s brought strictures against abortion, gay rights, same-sex marriage, contraception, and promotion of abstinence and celibacy – just as US bishops were reporting hundreds of child abuse cases, but getting little clarity on how to handle them.

Most heads of the church's Congrega*tion for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) serve two terms, or 10 years. Ratzinger served 24, then became pope.

In recent years, a Vatican focus on ecumenical outreach has given way to evangelical outreach. In June, a new pontifical office to "evangelize" areas of the world that have suffered "an eclipse of the sense of God" was announced. The church has rebuffed Protestants and drawn sharp lines on Islam. But Rome has improved ties to Eastern Orthodox churches.

On July 21, Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill praised the pope for holding firm against women priests and not succumbing to "sinful elements of the world" that have entered Protestant churches via gays and female clergy, and offered to work with the pope on world issues.

Today, after his 30-year quest to reshape the church, the sex scandal may be a sizable legacy. It is unclear where the pope is headed. In the past month, there's been some shift in tone and attention. In late July the church extended to 20 years the period that victims' claims can be investigated. But the key question of whether offending priests should be reported to civil authorities is undecided in Rome.

Beyond his few pronouncements, the pope's views on the sex scandal are an enigma. Vatican sources say the pontiff spends time writing books and only sees two church officials regularly. "Even bishops now wait two weeks or more for a meeting," says a church official who is concerned about the pope's isolation.


© The Christian Science Monitor. All Rights Reserved.

original story link;
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0806/Pope-Benedict-XVI-s-30-year-campaign-to-reassert-conservative-Catholicism

[PathWalker]

Dear readers,

The Vatican is the largest and most powerful crime organization. Even more powerful then the USA secret services.
The bad PR and public image it is facing is not the real issues the Vatican faces.

The prominent issue is the change in the global financial system.
When the global financial system melt down, the Vatican power will fall with it. So there is a survival battle going on, fierce and deadly.
See articles by Fulford and Wilcock as well as Jordan Maxwell.

If you wish for change, it is coming on us right now.

[giovonni]

"This inherently sordid sad story just keeps getting worse and worse as country after country pulls away the clerical cover revealing the hidden truth. I can think of no other international organization with a comparable crisis. Thirteen of the abused committed suicide as a result of the molestation. I can only imagine how incredibly painful this must be for believing Catholics. And for parents... how could one leave one's child with a priest? The great majority I am sure are honorable men, but as a parent how would one know one from another. This report states: "Not a single congregation escaped sexual abuse of minors."
comments by Stephen Schwartz

Catholic Church in Belgium details widespread sexual abuse
By the CNN Wire Staff
STORY HIGHLIGHTS




http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/CRIME/09/10/belgium.church.abuse/story.adriaenssens.afp.gi.jpg

Ariaenssens said there was "not a single congregation" which has escaped abuse.

* 13 of the alleged victims committed suicide
* One alleged victim was 2 when the abuse began

* Belgium

(CNN) -- The Catholic Church in Belgium released an independent report Friday detailing hundreds of assertions of sexual abuse of children by clergy and others working for the church from the 1950s into the late 1980s.

"We can say that not a single congregation escaped sexual abuse of minors by one or more of its members," said the Commission on Church-Related Sexual Abuse Complaints, which was led by Dr. Peter Ariaenssens, who is both a church investigator and psychiatrist.

The commission said it received about 500 reports from alleged victims, about 60 percent of them from males.

It cited 320 alleged abusers, of whom 102 were known to have been clergy members from 29 congregations.

Thirteen of the alleged victims committed suicide, it said.

Investigators had information about when the abuse started for 233 of the alleged victims. Forty-eight were 12; one was 2; five were 4; eight were 5; seven were 6; 10 were 7.

Of the 230 alleged victims about whom investigators said they had reliable information, more than 70 percent are currently between the ages of 40 and 70, it said. Ten percent are 31 to 40.

Four alleged victims are 20 to 30 years of age, and one is younger than 20, it said.

At the other end of the scale, five alleged victims are aged between 80 and 90 years old and one is older than 90.

"The victims where the abuse starts before the age of 12 is equally big as the group of victims where the abuse starts after the age of 12," it said. Male victims were at highest risk between ages 10 and 14, while the risk that females would be victimized increased as they got older, it said.

All of the alleged abusers were men.

The committee said none of the alleged cases had occurred recently.

Pope Benedict XVI has repeatedly said the Vatican will seek justice for victims. Over the summer he said that the church must promise "to do everything possible" to ensure that the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests "will never occur again."

Benedict said the church must "insistently beg forgiveness from God" and from victims for the sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests, and that priests must be more thoroughly vetted before joining the ministry.



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/10/belgium.church.abuse

[Studeo]

Sinead O'Connor: 'The Vatican is a nest of devils'

When she tore up the pope's picture as a protest against child abuse, people thought she was loopy. But Sinead O'Connor – former pop star, priest, newly married mother of four – won't say 'I told you so'

You can't mistake Sinead O'Connor's house. Outside the porch is an empty plant pot full of cigarette butts, inside are two large statues of the virgin Mary. As the door opens, I crash into another Virgin Mary. O'Connor's housekeeper, who doubles up as her best friend, opens the door and leads me into a lounge where family photos, rocking chairs and kids' paintings jostle for pole position with more Virgin Marys. A huge beautiful bay window overlooks the sea at Bray, just outside Dublin.

When O'Connor arrives, I barely recognise her. Her hair is a black bob, her face rounded, she is wearing a three-piece suit and has the air of a mid-20th century industrialist. A big brass cross hangs down her front. "That's my ordination cross. Normally I tuck it into my bra," which she does as she speaks. She suggests we retire to the shed-cum-office in the garden. So we stroll past the hanging linen, a few guitar cases, two Yorkshire terrier puppies, the cat, and she chats away confidently, and we reach the wooden hut and shut the door on the world. Then everything changes. She sits down, just about manages to light a fag with a shaking hand and morphs into the terrified (and terrifying) wisp of a girl from yesteryear.

In 1992 she tore up a picture of Pope John Paul II on the American TV show Saturday Night live. She said it was a protest at child sex abuse in the Catholic church, and many people thought she was loopy. What abuse? Two weeks later she was booed off the stage at a Bob Dylan tribute concert, her records were publicly smashed, and that was pretty much that as a pop star.

Eighteen years on, she has been vindicated. In March, Pope Benedict XVI issued an apology to the victims of decades of sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland, expressing his "shame and remorse" for the "sinful and criminal acts". But O'Connor is still boiling – she regards the Vatican's admission as more cover-up than confession.

O'Connor's career is astonishing – for its brevity and longevity. It can be boiled down to the one song – a gorgeous interpretation of Prince's Nothing Compares 2 U. She looked like a skinhead angel, and sang with despairing intensity. The accompanying video was equally memorable – the close-up of that luminous face, her haunted beauty, a single tear sliding down each cheek. Nothing Compares 2 U seems to be a conventional song about lost love, but it could just as easily be about God and faith. It went to No 1 all over the world in 1990. After that there were all sorts of records – Irish folk songs, reggae fusions, self-penned compositions, but nothing much to trouble the charts. And yet she is still a source of fascination – whether for her fiery pronouncements on the church, or her unconventional approach to raising a family (four children, four different fathers), her sexuality (in 2000, she outed herself as a lesbian, then changed her mind) or her faith (in 1999, she became a priest, Mother Bernadette, having been ordained at Lourdes by the breakaway Latin Tridentine church).

Today, ahead of the start of the pope's visit to Britain on Thursday, she wants to speak about the Catholic church – not to crow, not to say I told you so, but to look forward in the way only O'Connor can. She stares into the tape recorder diffidently. "I speak very quietly," she says. She doesn't seem ready for Jesus and the pope just yet. So we talk about her new husband Steve Cooney, whom she married this summer ("Third time lucky eh?"), how he produced the first record she made, and how he was a best friend for years. And she tells me how for two years after the 2006 birth of her fourth child Yeshua, she was such a slob that all she wore was a navy T-shirt and trackpants 'til her daughter Roisin, now 14, burnt her clothes in disgust and ordered her to go shopping. "So I thought **** it, and I love suits, and they haven't been in the ****in' shops for years, so I got these at Next, and they're ****in' brilliant 'cos it's like 40 quid for a jacket and 35 for a pair of trousers and you can wash them in the machine, which is ****in' crazy, so I can wear them round the house and if the kids **** me up it's grand."

Do any priests swear as much as she does? "Absolutely not. But that's a Dublin thing. Everybody swears. We put **** between syllables." Part of the image revamp was growing her hair. "I grew too old and fat and ugly to get away with the bald head." She's stopped shaking.

I ask her about the Marys. She says she's always collected them. Her mother and grandmother used to buy them for her birthday. Does she think it's strange that she still has such faith? "I think there's a difference between God and religion."

As she talks I notice an inky tattoo on her elbow. "Ah, that's a conquering lion, the Rasta name for God." She rolls up her sleeve to reveal an arm that is now a series of tattooed quotes. "This is one of the names of Allah, I just got it done a week or so ago and it was incredibly painful." We work our way up her arm. "That's a quote from Muhammad Ali, who I worship – 'No Vietcong ever called me ******'."

And this is from Psalm 91, 'So that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

I had always assumed that O'Connor was ordained to stick two fingers up at the Catholic hierarchy. No, she says, not at all. "I didn't do it to cause offence. It was just something private between me and the Holy Spirit." Does she practise as a priest? "I have to be very careful. I guess the way I do it is through music because people sometimes want me to do sacraments but not for the right reasons – they want me to do it because it's Sinead O'Connor."

But she says, apart from her children, her ordination is her greatest achievement. "I am proud that I did listen to that voice inside me rather than be intimidated by men telling me you can't be a priest. One ought to be more concerned in obeying what the Holy Spirit inspires you to feel rather than what a bunch of men in ****ing dresses are telling you to do or not do."

I'm still trying to work out her position – she loves God, but despises Catholicism? She shakes her head. "No, what I think is wrong is that the people running the show are misrepresenting what Catholicism actually is ... what I'm talking about is the highest echelons of the Vatican't as I call it."

The Vatican't? She grins. "Yes, as in they can't admit anything, they can't stand up for anything." Where to start? Women priests, homosexuals, contraception and, of course, child sex abuse. "You can go back centuries, but the way they've behaved just in the last 20 years, over this issue of sexual abuse, shows they don't give a ****. They feel untouchable. And to me it seems they don't believe in God at all. Because if you did believe you couldn't stand in front of that spirit covering up and moving priests and doctoring reports to psychiatrists and not telling them there was a suspicion of abuse, you just couldn't do that."

She quotes any number of documents and papal decrees verbatim at me, hands me copies, insisting I doublecheck everything she says. You could imagine her in court, prosecuting the Vatican. She gives me a potted history of clerical child sex abuse – how it can be traced back to AD 320, how the first official complaint was made in 1917, the first edict was issued from the Vatican in 1922 stating that any complaints of abuse had to be silenced under pain of excommunication, how the first centre for paedophile priests was opened in 1940, how the original edict was reissued in 1962. "So they knew about it all right.

What shocks her as much as the abuse is the manner in which the Vatican claimed ignorance and suggested it is also a victim. In April, the pope's personal preacher Raniero Cantalamessa compared the attack on the Catholic church with the Nazi persecution of the Jews. "That is incendiary," she says. "Quite evil, a ****ing disgrace." She is talking calmly, and stops occasionally to sip from a mug, which says: "I feel a sin coming on."

She passes me the 2009 Murphy report into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, which concludes: "The commission has no doubt that clerical child sex abuse was covered up by the archdiocese of Dublin and other church authorities ... The structures and rules of the Catholic church facilitated that cover-up."

So what is the way forward? "OK, the abusive priests have been dealt with and that's very important, but now what has to be dealt with is the criminality of the cover-up." She says it has to go to the very top – after all in 2001, Pope Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger, issued an updated edict instructing the world's bishops to silence all abuse allegations or risk being thrown out of the church. "The Vatican is a nest of devils and a haven for criminals. It's evil, the very top of the toppermost is evil."

O'Connor is clear what has to happen – those responsible have to go. "And when all the those guys stand down we should take back the church for us." Would she like to see a democratically elected pope? "Do we need a ****ing pope? Why do we need a pope? Christ doesn't need a representative. Ten years from now the church will be nothing resembling what it has been."

O'Connor's anger has always been personal. As a child, she was abused by her mother – her father was only the second man in Ireland to be granted custody of his children. O'Connor, 43, says her mother's behaviour was fashioned by a church that normalised abuse. "People under 40 don't understand what Ireland was like. It was a theocracy, like Iran, slightly less potent but the same situation. The photo of the pope I ripped up was one that had been on my mother's bedroom wall for 25 years. I took it when she died. She learned at school that violence was the way to sort her problems out. These kids were having the **** kicked out of them, and they grew up with the message that this was the way you get people to behave."

Was her mother's violence physical? "Yes, but it was also very sexual. It wasn't like she was having sex with me, but it was sexually abusive violence from when I was very small. It was horrific. I loved my mother but I was terrified of her. I literally pissed my pants if she came near me, but even when she was doing what she did to me I could see this was a soul in torment." She lights a cigarette. "I once won a prize at school for curling up into the smallest ball and the reason I could do that was because I was so used to having the **** kicked out of me." Ultimately, she says, it was the theocracy that led to her beatings that also helped her survive them. "Thank **** I had a sense of Jesus. When I was lying on the floor having the **** kicked out of me, I'd envision Jesus on the top of some hill on the cross, and the blood would run from Jesus's heart down into mine on the floor and that's how I got through being beaten. I'd concentrate on that image."

O'Connor says she is so much calmer than she was in her 20s. A turning point came seven years ago when she was diagnosed as bipolar. "It explained a lot about being angry, fighting with people, being suicidal. And often with anger what's behind it is grief. Did you ever see this creepy cowboy movie, and at the end the guy was shot from behind and a huge hole is blown through his back – that's how I used to feel. I felt like I was walking round the world with a huge ****ing hole in me. And within a day of taking the medication, I felt the cement had come and filled in the hole."

Will she always have to be on drugs? "Yes, but that is great as far as I'm concerned. Because you couldn't really live without them, you'd be in the nuthouse. Being diagnosed meant I actually had a chance of being a normal person."

The two youngest children arrive back home, jump into her arms, and tell her what they've been doing. "Someone described me as mumsy," she says, "and I love that because to me the most important thing in my whole life has been being a mum."

She's relaxed now, talking about the future. She's recording an album of her own songs but doesn't want to say much about it . "I hate talking about my career when I'm doing church stuff because it's as if I'm using the church to further my career, you know what I mean?"

Did she ever enjoy her success? "I was such an unhappy person I couldn't. The day I ripped up the picture of the pope was the best day of my life because then I became me. I could become the kind of artist I wanted to be. And now 99% of my life is rolling around the house and looking after the kids. I wouldn't go back to it for a million years."

She takes me round the house, showing favourite photos of her children. Do you think the new calm you is permanent, I ask. "People always say to me do you think your happiness is going to last, as if I'm teetering on some edge." She smiles. "Bollocks."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/10/sinead-oconnor-pope-visit

[wynderer]

i'm really glad i was raised w/no religion -- it seems to have deeply scarred many human beings

[Studeo]

Johann Hari: Catholics, it's you this Pope has abused

It is my conviction that if you review evidence of the suffering he has inflicted on your fellow Catholics, you will stand in solidarity with them - and join the protesters

Thursday, 9 September 2010

I want to appeal to Britain's Roman Catholics now, in the final days before Joseph Ratzinger's state visit begins. I know that you are overwhelmingly decent people. You are opposed to covering up the rape of children. You are opposed to telling Africans that condoms "increase the problem" of HIV/Aids. You are opposed to labelling gay people "evil". The vast majority of you, if you witnessed any of these acts, would be disgusted, and speak out. Yet over the next fortnight, many of you will nonetheless turn out to cheer for a Pope who has unrepentantly done all these things.

I believe you are much better people than this man. It is my conviction that if you impartially review the evidence of the suffering he has inflicted on your fellow Catholics, you will stand in solidarity with them – and join the protesters.

Some people think Ratzinger's critics are holding him responsible for acts that were carried out before he became Pope, simply because he is the head of the institution involved. This is an error. For over 25 years, Ratzinger was personally in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the part of the Vatican responsible for enforcing Catholic canonical law across the world, including on sexual abuse. He is a notorious micro-manager who, it is said, insisted every salient document cross his desk. Hans Küng, a former friend of Ratzinger's, says: "No one in the whole of the Catholic Church knew as much about abuse cases as this Pope."
Related articles

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We know what the methods of the church were during this period. When it was discovered that a child had been raped by a priest, the church swore everybody involved to secrecy, and moved the priest on to another parish. When he raped more children, they too were sworn to secrecy, and he was moved on to another parish. And on, and on. Over 10,000 people have come forward to say they were raped as part of this misery-go-round. The church insisted all cases be kept from the police and dealt with by their own "canon" law – which can only "punish" child rapists to prayer or penitence or, on rare occasions, defrocking.

Ratzinger was at the heart of this. He refuses to let any police officer see the Vatican's documentation, even now, but honourable Catholics have leaked some of them anyway. We know what he did. We have the paper trail. Here are three examples.

In Germany in the early 1980s, Father Peter Hullermann was moved to a diocese run by Ratzinger. He had already been accused of raping three boys. Ratzinger didn't go to the police, instead Hullermann was referred for "counselling". The psychiatrist who saw him, Werner Huth, told the Church unequivocally that he was "untreatable [and] must never be allowed to work with children again". Yet he kept being moved from parish to parish, even after a sex crime conviction in 1986. He was last accused of sexual abuse in 1998.

In the US in 1985, a group of American bishops wrote to Ratzinger begging him to defrock a priest called Father Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and molested two young boys in a rectory. Ratzinger refused for years, explaining that he was thinking of the "good of the universal Church" and of the "detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke among the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age" of the priest involved. He was 38. He went on to rape many more children. Think about what Ratzinger's statement reveals. Ratzinger thinks the "good of the universal Church" – your church – lies not in protecting your children from being raped, but in protecting the rapists from punishment.

In 1996, the Archbishop of Milwaukee appealed to Ratzinger to defrock Father Lawrence C Murphy, who had raped and tortured up to 200 deaf and mute children at a Catholic boarding school. His rapes often began in the confessional. Ratzinger never replied. Eight months later, there was a secret canonical "trial" – but Murphy wrote to Ratzinger saying he was ill, so it was cancelled. Ratzinger advised him to take a "spiritual retreat". He died years later, unpunished.

These are only the cases that have leaked out. Who knows what remains in the closed files? In 2001, Ratzinger wrote to every bishop in the world, telling them allegations of abuse must be dealt with "in absolute secrecy... completely suppressed by perpetual silence". That year, the Vatican actually lauded Bishop Pierre Pican for refusing to inform the local French police about a paedophile priest, telling him: "I congratulate you for not denouncing a priest to the civil administration." The commendation was copied to all bishops.

Once the evidence of an international conspiracy to cover up abuse became incontrovertible to any reasonable observer, Ratzinger's defenders shifted tack, and said he was sorry and would change his behaviour. But this June, the Belgian police told the Catholic Church they could no longer "investigate" child rape on Belgian soil internally, and seized their documents relating to child abuse. If Ratzinger was repentant, he would surely have congratulated them. He did the opposite. He called them "deplorable", and his spokesman said: "There is no precedent for this, not even under communist regimes." He still thinks the law doesn't apply to his institution. When Ratzinger issued supposedly ground-breaking new rules against paedophilia earlier this year, he put it on a par with... ordaining women as priests.

There are people who will tell you that these criticisms of Ratzinger are "anti-Catholic". What could be more anti-Catholic than to cheer the man who facilitated the rape of your children? What could be more pro-Catholic than to try to bring him to justice? This is only one of Ratzinger's crimes. When he visited Africa in March 2009, he said that condoms "increase the problem" of HIV/Aids. His defenders say he is simply preaching abstinence outside marriage and monogamy within it, so if people are following his advice they can't contract HIV – but in order to reinforce the first part of his message, he spreads overt lies claiming condoms don't work. In a church in Congo, I watched as a Catholic priest said condoms contain "tiny holes" that "help" the HIV virus – not an unusual event. Meanwhile, Ratzinger calls consensual gay sex "evil", and has been at the forefront of trying to prevent laws that establish basic rights for gay people, especially in Latin America.

I know that for many British Catholics, their faith makes them think of something warm and good and kind – a beloved grandmother, or the gentler sayings of Jesus. That is not what Ratzinger stands for. If you turn out to celebrate him, you will be understood as endorsing his crimes and his cruelties. If your faith pulls you towards him rather than his victims, shouldn't that make you think again about your faith? Doesn't it suggest that faith in fact distorts your moral faculties?

I know it may cause you pain to acknowledge this. But it is nothing compared to the pain of a child raped by his priest, or a woman infected with HIV because Ratzinger said condoms make Aids worse, or a gay person stripped of basic legal protections. You have a choice during this state visit: stand with Ratzinger, or stand with his Catholic victims. Which side, do you think, would be chosen by the Nazarene carpenter you find on your crucifixes? I suspect he would want Ratzinger to be greeted with an empty, repulsed silence, broken only by cries for justice – and the low approaching wail of a police siren.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-catholics-its-you-this-pope-has-abused-2074029.html

[Studeo]

Source: The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/administration-problems-blamed-for-pope-benedicts-ticket-slump-2077548.html


'Administration problems' blamed for Pope Benedict's ticket slump
By Sofia Piazza

Monday, 13 September 2010
Thousands of tickets for open-air masses during Pope Benedict's visit to Britain this week are yet to be taken up just four days before he is due to arrive.
Organisers have blamed poor communication between dioceses and the parishes distributing tickets as well as early application deadlines for the low take up. Some Catholics, especially the elderly, have also been put off by the pre-dawn starts and long journeys demanded for many events. Because of tight security arrangements, attendees must attach themselves to a local parish group and travel with them from designated departure points.
Although just 400,000 tickets had been allocated for the open-air masses which will be presided over by Pope Benedict in Glasgow, London and Birmingham, organisers are now racing to ensure the parks will be full.
The forecast is not a patch on 1982, whens hundreds of thousands of people congregated at six venues across the country to see John Paul II during his six-day visit.
Parish priests have been urged to distribute thousands of tickets to schools, while the Archbishop of Westminster, Rev Vincent Nichols, wrote to Catholic school heads in London last week asking them to organise parties of schoolchildren to attend the evening prayer vigil in Hyde Park on Saturday.
While it may also be the case that numerous paedophilia scandals have tarnished the church's image, cost may have contributed towards the low turn-out. The visit is expected to cost the Catholic Church around £10m, and applicants were told they had to make a financial contribution to attend the masses. Attendance at the beatification of Cardinal John Henry Newman in Birmingham on Sunday, the final day of the Pope's visit, costs £25. The afternoon mass in Glasgow's Bellahouston Park on Thursday was priced at £20, while the evening prayer vigil in Hyde Park cost £5. Organisers have denied that the charges are an entrance fee but would go towards transport and security provisions.
Jack Valero, a spokesman for Opus Dei, said that there was "huge excitement" and "no lack of enthusiasm from Catholics" about the upcoming papal visit but admitted there had been administration problems which meant that there was a "redistribution of tickets going on now".
He added that he believed the Hyde Park event would be at full capacity at 80,000, but was less confident that Cofton Park in Birmingham would receive the full number of 60,000 visitors. He attributed this to health and safety and security arrangements which would necessitate visitors arriving at the park between 3am and 7am for the 10am mass, and said that "those who can't face getting up at 2am" would be deterred.
Peter Jennings, press secretary to the Archdiocese of Birmingham, said the process of allocating spaces for the mass was a "huge and complicated task". He added that visitors were "not paying to go to mass, which is free – the £25 contribution is for the cost of travel and the travel arrangements."
Austen Ivereigh, the co-ordinator of the media group Catholic Voices, admitted that there had been some "problems with communicating the availability of spaces" and that the cost of going to the masses could have deterred some visitors.
"But what's more likely is the distance – because of the logistics and security, where the police need to know about every single coach coming and that everyone on the coach can be vouched for, the organisers have had to ask people to travel very early," he said. "There is a finite number of spaces for security reasons, and there is the problem that more people want to go than there are tickets available.
"With the general election campaign, a new government, and the venues for events changed at the last minute, all of this has been quite complex and the church has had very little time for the allocation process. But I am confident the events will be full."
A source close to the papal visit said that the long journeys faced by some Scottish parishioners to attend the Pope's Glasgow mass on Thursday afternoon meant that tickets were now being transferred to closer parishes, and that it would be "a race against time" to ensure an attendance of 100,000.

[giovonni]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20100915/i/ra1110713028.jpg?x=399&y=345&q=85&sig=1XMHTLSWESCeKmNwnvH9lw--

Note~ if you all want to ascend :rapture:

Pope in UK urges tolerance, warns against atheism :pray:

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20100916/i/r1599539818.jpg?x=213&y=144&xc=1&yc=1&wc=410&hc=277&q=85&sig=R.E4HwiZ_H1D.RZrG45WUA--
Reuters – Pope Benedict XVI waves as he boards the aircraft taking him to the United Kingdom from Rome's Ciampino … Slideshow> here http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Pope-visits-UK-amid-indifference-outrage/ss/events/wl/033002pope#photoViewer=/100916/481/urn_publicid_ap_org_eb8759671609413fb89cb2cc8c80489f


Pope in UK urges tolerance, warns against atheism
By Philip Pullella and Avril Ormsby Philip Pullella And Avril Ormsby 2 hrs 24 mins ago

GLASGOW (Reuters) – Pope Benedict started a trip to Britain on Thursday with some of the clearest criticism yet of his Church's handling of its sexual abuse crisis and urged the country to beware of "aggressive secularism."

Some 125,000 people, including a small number of protesters, watched the 83-year-old pope as he was driven through the Scottish capital Edinburgh wearing a green plaid scarf.

Hours before landing, he told reporters aboard the plane taking him to Scotland for a four-day trip to Britain that he was shocked by what he called "a perversion" of the priesthood.

"It is also a great sadness that the authority of the Church was not sufficiently vigilant and not sufficiently quick and decisive in taking the necessary measures," he added.

Advocates for victims have long been calling for Church leaders to assume more legal and moral responsibility for allowing the sexual abuse scandals to get out of hand in the United States and several countries in Europe.

Benedict has a delicate path to tread in England and Scotland in relations with the Anglican church after his offer last October making it easier for disaffected Anglicans, unhappy over the ordination of women and gay bishops, to convert.

These relations could be thrown into sharp focus on Friday when the pope is due to meet the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, the head of the Church of England, the Anglican mother church, at Lambeth Palace, in London.

AGGRESSIVE SECULARISM

On Thursday, after the pope was greeted by Queen Elizabeth -- titular head of the Church of England founded when Henry VIII broke with Rome in 1534 -- he got to the heart of his message in his first speech on British soil as Roman Catholic leader.

He spoke of the "deep Christian roots that are present in every layer of British life."

Groups that plan to protest against the pope's trip, only the second in history, include atheists, secular organizations, and those who want the pope to be held legally responsible for the sexual abuse scandals.

The pope, out to win over one of Europe's most secular countries, reminded Britons to beware of extremism, saying that the attempt by totalitarian regimes in the 20th century to eliminate God should provide "sobering lessons" on tolerance.

"Today, the United Kingdom strives to be a modern and multicultural society. In this challenging enterprise, may it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate," he said.

The National Secular Society criticized the pope, saying his comments about British society were wrong.

"The secular identity of the British people is not something to criticize, but to celebrate. We have rejected dogmatic religion devoid of compassion," it said in a statement, adding that the Church discriminates against gays and women.

Later, at an open-air mass in nearby Glasgow, during which TV show "Britain's Got Talent" singing sensation Susan Boyle sang, the pope told the 65,000 people attending that followers should not be afraid to promote their faith.

"There are some who now seek to exclude religious belief from public discourse, to privatize it or even to paint it as a threat to equality and liberty," he said during his homily.

He is expected to return to the theme during a speech to civic leaders at Westminster Hall on Friday.

The German pope spoke glowingly of Britain's history and, significantly because of his own background, praised its people for standing up to the "Nazi tyranny" that was wreaked on the country by his own people in World War Two.

The Queen also spoke of the common Christian heritage that Anglicans and Catholics shared, and of their common belief that religion should never be allowed to justify violence and that dialogue could transcend "old suspicions."

Outside, around 150 protesters waved gay rainbow flags and banners saying "Pope opposition to condoms kills people" and "Stop protecting pedophile priests."

(Additional reporting by Anna MacSwan; Editing by Elizabeth Fullerton)

Source;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100916/ts_nm/us_pope_britain

[Studeo]

Is the systematic abuse of children worldwide seeding our society with mentally scared individuals who themselves perpetrate other crimes and drug abuse thus speeding up the breakdown of communities from families to civil servants to government?
This seems to me to be a planned assault on the family and the mental state of our future citizens. These individuals grow up to be angry and disturbed who unless are given professional help to deal with their demons will cause a lot of damage to themselves and those around them like a terrible cancer IMHO.

Studeo.

The Great Catholic Cover-Up

By Christopher HitchensPosted Monday, March 15, 2010, at 10:20 AM ET

On March 10, the chief exorcist of the Vatican, the Rev. Gabriele Amorth (who has held this demanding post for 25 years), was quoted as saying that "the Devil is at work inside the Vatican," and that "when one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' in the holy rooms, it is all true—including these latest stories of violence and pedophilia." This can perhaps be taken as confirmation that something horrible has indeed been going on in the holy precincts, though most inquiries show it to have a perfectly good material explanation.

Concerning the most recent revelations about the steady complicity of the Vatican in the ongoing—indeed endless—scandal of child rape, a few days later a spokesman for the Holy See made a concession in the guise of a denial. It was clear, said the Rev. Federico Lombardi, that an attempt was being made "to find elements to involve the Holy Father personally in issues of abuse." He stupidly went on to say that "those efforts have failed."

He was wrong twice. In the first place, nobody has had to strive to find such evidence: It has surfaced, as it was bound to do. In the second place, this extension of the awful scandal to the topmost level of the Roman Catholic Church is a process that has only just begun. Yet it became in a sense inevitable when the College of Cardinals elected, as the vicar of Christ on Earth, the man chiefly responsible for the original cover-up. (One of the sanctified voters in that "election" was Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, a man who had already found the jurisdiction of Massachusetts a bit too warm for his liking.)
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There are two separate but related matters here: First, the individual responsibility of the pope in one instance of this moral nightmare and, second, his more general and institutional responsibility for the wider lawbreaking and for the shame and disgrace that goes with it. The first story is easily told, and it is not denied by anybody. In 1979, an 11-year-old German boy identified as Wilfried F. was taken on a vacation trip to the mountains by a priest. After that, he was administered alcohol, locked in his bedroom, stripped naked, and forced to suck the penis of his confessor. (Why do we limit ourselves to calling this sort of thing "abuse"?) The offending cleric was transferred from Essen to Munich for "therapy" by a decision of then-Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, and assurances were given that he would no longer have children in his care. But it took no time for Ratzinger's deputy, Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, to return him to "pastoral" work, where he soon enough resumed his career of sexual assault.

It is, of course, claimed, and it will no doubt later be partially un-claimed, that Ratzinger himself knew nothing of this second outrage. I quote, here, from the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a former employee of the Vatican Embassy in Washington and an early critic of the Catholic Church's sloth in responding to child-rape allegations. "Nonsense," he says. "Pope Benedict is a micromanager. He's the old style. Anything like that would necessarily have been brought to his attention. Tell the vicar general to find a better line. What he's trying to do, obviously, is protect the pope."

This is common or garden stuff, very familiar to American and Australian and Irish Catholics whose children's rape and torture, and the cover-up of same by the tactic of moving rapists and torturers from parish to parish, has been painstakingly and comprehensively exposed. It's on a level with the recent belated admission by the pope's brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, that while he knew nothing about sexual assault at the choir school he ran between 1964 and 1994, now that he remembers it, he is sorry for his practice of slapping the boys around.

Very much more serious is the role of Joseph Ratzinger, before the church decided to make him supreme leader, in obstructing justice on a global scale. After his promotion to cardinal, he was put in charge of the so-called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" (formerly known as the Inquisition). In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church's own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated "in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication." (My italics). Nobody has yet been excommunicated for the rape and torture of children, but exposing the offense could get you into serious trouble. And this is the church that warns us against moral relativism! (See, for more on this appalling document, two reports in the London Observer of April 24, 2005, by Jamie Doward.)

Not content with shielding its own priests from the law, Ratzinger's office even wrote its own private statute of limitations. The church's jurisdiction, claimed Ratzinger, "begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age" and then lasts for 10 more years. Daniel Shea, the attorney for two victims who sued Ratzinger and a church in Texas, correctly describes that latter stipulation as an obstruction of justice. "You can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10, the priest will get away with it."

The next item on this grisly docket will be the revival of the long-standing allegations against the Rev. Marcial Maciel, founder of the ultra-reactionary Legion of Christ, in which sexual assault seems to have been almost part of the liturgy. Senior ex-members of this secretive order found their complaints ignored and overridden by Ratzinger during the 1990s, if only because Father Maciel had been praised by the then-Pope John Paul II as an "efficacious guide to youth." And now behold the harvest of this long campaign of obfuscation. The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime. Ratzinger himself may be banal, but his whole career has the stench of evil—a clinging and systematic evil that is beyond the power of exorcism to dispel. What is needed is not medieval incantation but the application of justice—and speedily at that.

http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/

[Studeo]

The Man Who Sued the Pope

Wednesday, Apr 21 2010

Five years ago, Houston attorney/theologian Daniel Shea watched the results of the papal conclave at home. Intellectually, he knew what the dirty-gray smoke puffing out of the Sistine Chapel's chimney signaled: that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger would soon be announced as the new Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church.
The walls of Daniel Shea's River Oaks-area office are still adorned with his theological degrees from Belgium's ancient University of Louvain seminary, but Shea says the Roman Catholic Church he once solemnly vowed to serve no longer exists.

The walls of Daniel Shea's River Oaks-area office are still adorned with his theological degrees from Belgium's ancient University of Louvain seminary, but Shea says the Roman Catholic Church he once solemnly vowed to serve no longer exists.
In 1971, Shea looked forward to a lifetime of serving the Church as a deacon. Here he is still a seminarian and in Paris with a devout Catholic friend who insisted he wear a collar for their picture.
Courtesy of Daniel Shea
In 1971, Shea looked forward to a lifetime of serving the Church as a deacon. Here he is still a seminarian and in Paris with a devout Catholic friend who insisted he wear a collar for their picture.

Now, as the white-haired Pope battles a seemingly endless series of priestly sex scandals, Shea says he is still trying to get his head around his belief that he and his co-counsel Tahira Khan Merritt set the coronation in motion when they filed a Houston-based sex abuse lawsuit against Ratzinger.

According to Shea, the cardinals elected Ratzinger Pope to give him the immunity that would enable him to avoid answering any questions concerning his knowledge about and handling of sex abuse cases in Houston's St. Francis De Sales church in the mid-1990s.

In fact, Shea believes that what he started with the lawsuit may eventually result in the destruction of the entire Roman Catholic Church.

Dan Shea, a former Catholic deacon, has come a long way from the seminary. Whether that's a long way up or a long way down depends on where today's Catholic Church stands in your eyes. In the last five years, Shea has cracked wise about the Pope being gay and a drag queen in front of the Italian Parliament. He got a bishop to declare in open court that it was the church's position that minor children were accomplices in their own molestation. He looked another bishop dead in the eye and told him to kiss his ass.

So it's safe to say, he evokes strong emotions while expressing his beliefs.

In Doe et al v. Roman Catholic Diocese of Galveston-Houston et al, Shea and Khan Merritt allege that a letter then-Cardinal Ratzinger sent to every Catholic bishop on May 18, 2001, constituted an international conspiracy to obstruct justice. This official Vatican document Ratzinger penned in his role as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith dealt with official church procedure in dealing with clerical sex abuse cases.

Not only did this letter contain the cardinal's current thinking on the subject, it also cited in a footnote a top-secret 1962 Vatican document Shea would eventually flush out.

This 48-year-old document, informally known as Crimen Sollicitationis, considered a smoking gun in some quarters, contains written orders from the Vatican laying bare a system for protecting child molesters. To Shea, Crimen is more than a smoking gun, it is "a nuclear bomb."

Many churchmen disagree as to the true meaning of Crimen. Still, it's easy to interpret that, taken together, Crimen and Ratzinger's letter of May 18 make it plain that Ratzinger wanted these cases handled by the Vatican and only the Vatican. According to Ratzinger's letter, the roles "of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests." Furthermore, the letter was co-signed by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who later went on the record as follows: "In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offense of pedophilia is unfounded."

The letter ordered everyone involved in these cases to keep the evidence confidential for ten years after the victims reached adulthood.

The entire proceedings were to be held under "pontifical secret," meaning those who broke the silence to outside authorities could be excommunicated.

"Every Cardinal in that conclave had been a recipient of the May 18 cover-up letter," Shea says. And because they were all recipients, he says, they were all complicit.

In response to Ratzinger's sending that letter, Shea and the Texas Secretary of State had already served his Vatican office with papers. The cardinal was scheduled to appear in federal Judge Lee Rosenthal's Houston courtroom.

What's more, the Pope would be giving his deposition to Shea, who is not just a tough plaintiff's lawyer, but also a former Catholic deacon with three postgraduate theological degrees — one of them pontifical — from the University of Louvain, one of the oldest Catholic universities in Europe.

"I don't think they were too pleased by that prospect," Shea says.

But now that he had been made Pope, it would be a cold day in hell before Joseph Ratzinger would darken the Rusk Street doorway of Rosenthal's court. As a newly minted head of state, Pope Benedict XVI was now diplomatically immune to American lawsuits.

Again, Shea believes that was the whole point behind Ratzinger's election.
_____________________

Along with its Sharpstown surroundings, St. Francis De Sales was rapidly becoming Hispanicized in the 1990s. That was when Colombian native Juan Carlos Patiño-Arango was brought in to minister to the growing Spanish-speaking portion of the flock, and he conducted most of the Spanish masses at the church. His accusers later swore that he was presented to them as a priest, not a mere seminarian.

According to court documents in Shea's lawsuit, Patiño-Arango would offer to help counsel the boys about sex and masturbation — topics some mothers don't want to broach with their sons. The suit alleges that these rectory "talks" escalated into Patiño-Arango masturbating some of the boys and performing fellatio on one of them while masturbating himself. Some of the boys said he later threatened them after the fact by telling them that nobody would believe their stories over his, and also claimed that many of the other boys in the class had submitted to his "counseling," so they shouldn't feel too bad or abnormal.....read more

http://www.houstonpress.com/2010-04-22/news/the-man-who-sued-the-pope/

[Studeo]

The Intelligence² Debate - Stephen Fry

http://dai.ly/dyJv4S

[Studeo]

Pope's visit: Six held by counter-terror police hours before historic addressArrests of London street cleaners under Terrorism Act 2000 made on basis of 'overheard conversation'
Police arrested six men over an alleged terrorist plot against the pope hours before he delivered one of his trip's key addresses to four former prime ministers and hundreds of parliamentarians and religious leaders in Westminster Hall.

Five London street cleaners were arrested at gunpoint by counter-terrorist officers in a dawn raid at the depot where they worked in Westminster, London. The sixth man was arrested on Friday afternoon in north London.

Searches by officers at up to 10 addresses were continuing, but no equipment linked to bomb-making or anything that could obviously be used to stage a terrorist attack was recovered.

Some of the men arrested are believed to be of Algerian heritage. They were being held and questioned by detectives who are also trying to establish their identities.

Security sources described the arrests as "precautionary" and Scotland Yard officers are understood to be bracing themselves for criticism if their suspicions are unfounded and the men are released.

News of the arrest came hours before Benedict arrived at Westminster Hall, where he delivered an address to several hundred of the most prominent people in British public life, among them Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Sir John Major, Lady Thatcher, Nick Clegg and the archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams.

One knowledgeable source said the arrests were made because of concerns including conversations overheard between some of those arrested, the fact their jobs gave them access to areas to be visited by the pope, and the difficulty in gauging the threat in a very short time.

Other sources said that the level of alarm in Whitehall was "low key". There was no meeting of the government's emergency committee, Cobra, and the terrorism threat level remained unchanged, indicating that there was no credible evidence pointing to an imminent attack.

Despite the scare, the 83-year-old pope continued with the second day of his four-day state visit. He was told of the arrests at his first engagement of the day – a visit to Britain's biggest Catholic teacher training establishment, St Mary's University College in Twickenham.

Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican's head of press, said that the visit would carry on with "courage and joy" despite the arrests, adding: "We are calm … We are totally confident in the work of the police and Scotland Yard."

Scotland Yard said the policing plan had been reviewed, but the pope's itinerary would remain unchanged.

The six men – who are aged 26, 27, 29, 36, 40 and 50 – were arrested under the Terrorism Act 2000, on suspicion of the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism. Searches were carried out at their work and home addresses in north and east London. Other locations were searched later in the day with police seizing computers for evidence of terrorist planning or signs of extremism.

Westminster council said the first five to be arrested worked for Veolia Environmental Services, a contractor employing 650 on-street staff.

Sources said the men were not known to counter-terrorism officials.

The information that led to the arrests was not the result of intercepts or undercover work, but was, sources said, more akin to an overheard conversation that could be interpreted as posing a threat.

It came to police on Thursday as the pope prepared for a round of public events in London. His schedule was a key factor in the decision by senior officers to act and thereby quash any potential threat.

The timing of the arrests will expose Scotland Yard to criticism if the men are released without charge. However, the former head of counter-terrorism at Scotland Yard, Bob Quick, said police had little choice. "You don't have much time to evaluate the information, and you cannot take the risk," he said. "The duty on the police is to err on the side of caution, even if someone is not charged, rather than not acting and finding out you had a real plot which came to fruition."

Quick added there was a public misconception about the purpose of arrests in terrorism cases: "An arrest is a means of investigation, it does not mean someone is guilty of an offence."

Counter-terror sources said M15 was also investigating the men's background.

A huge security and public order operation swung into action on Thursday when the pope touched down in Britain. Thousands of officers are involved in the operation from forces including the Met, Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders, West Midlands and British transport police and the cost of policing the papal visit could reach £1.5m

Senior police officers said last week that there was no information to suggest any specific group wanted to attack the pope, but warned against underestimating the "passion and the fervour" the visit would evoke.

Police also interviewed mentally unstable people who they feared could pose a threat to the pope.

The pontiff faces a slightly less gruelling day on Saturday, beginning with a meeting with the prime minister and ending more than 12 hours later after a prayer vigil in Hyde Park.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/17/pope-visit-terror-police-arrests-street-cleaners

[giovonni]

:twitch:

Vatican bank chief investigated over money laundering claims

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/9/21/1285071491962/This-picture-taken-on-Mar-006.jpg
Under investigation: Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, president of the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (IOR). Photograph: Emanuela De Meo/AFP/Getty Images


The head of the Vatican bank has formally been placed under investigation in an inquiry into a suspected violation of Italy's money-laundering laws, judicial sources said today.

At the same time, a judge in Rome ordered a freeze on €23m (£19.5m) held in an account opened by the Vatican bank, the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR), at another financial institution in the Italian capital. It was thought to be the first time such action had been authorised against the IOR in Italy.

Since last September, the Bank of Italy has classified the Vatican bank as a non-EU institution whose dealings with other banks are thus subject to especially close scrutiny.

The sources said that last Wednesday, on the eve of Pope Benedict's departure for Britain, a unit of the Italian revenue guard alerted prosecutors to an anomaly in an account owned by the IOR at the Rome branch of Credito Artigiano, which has close historic ties to the Catholic church.

Of the €28m deposited, €23m was destined for transfer to JP Morgan in Frankfurt and another €3m to another Italian bank. But in neither case, it is alleged, had the Vatican's bankers supplied details of the individual or corporation for whom they were acting, as required by a 2007 legislative decree.

The sources said the president of the IOR, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, and another senior executive were under investigation. It was not immediately clear whether there was any connection between this inquiry and another in which the Vatican bank has been named, which concerns suspect property dealings.

The Vatican has a long history of withholding co-operation from Italian investigators seeking access to its bank's books. The IOR was involved in a major scandal in 1982 arising from the fraudulent bankruptcy of Banco Ambrosiano, then Italy's largest private bank.

* guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010
source;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/21/vatican-bank-chief-investigated-laundering

[giovonni]

http://www.fcpablog.com/storage/cleaned.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1268937743949

Vatican says probe due to ‘misunderstanding’ :cry:

By Guy Dinmore in Rome and Rachel Sanderson in Milan

Published: September 22 2010 20:02 | Last updated: September 22 2010 20:02

Stung by allegations of suspected money laundering levelled by Rome magistrates against the Vatican’s top bankers, the Holy See has insisted there had been a “misunderstanding” over two disputed money transfers and it had been co-operating fully with Italian and international authorities.

Italy’s finance police said on Tuesday it had frozen €23m ($31m) held by the Vatican’s bank, the Institute of Religious Works (IOR), in the Rome branch of Credito Artigiano, an Italian bank. Magistrates have opened a formal money laundering investigation involving Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, chairman of IOR, and Paolo Cipriani, director-general.

“The current problem was caused by a misunderstanding (now being examined) between the IOR and the bank which received the transfer order,” Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican representative, wrote in a letter to the Financial Times.

Father Lombardi said that since his appointment a year ago, Mr Gotti Tedeschi had been working “with great commitment to ensure the transparency of the IOR’s activities” and the inclusion of the Vatican as a sovereign state in the “white list” of states deemed to be in compliance with international norms on money laundering.

The issue is of particular sensitivity to the Vatican, which appointed Mr Gotti Tedeschi – a veteran banker and lecturer in ethics – to continue putting IOR in order after its entanglement in the fraudulent collapse of Banco Ambrosiano in the 1980s and the Enimont corruption trials involving government officials a decade later.

The latest investigation, which was prompted by a tightening of controls by the Bank of Italy, risks straining relations between the Vatican and Italian authorities, particularly over the issue of sovereignty and jurisdiction.

Mr Gotti Tedeschi was quoted by Il Sole 24 Ore, Italy’s main business daily, as suggesting that “a procedural error was being used as a pretext to attack the Institute, its president, and more broadly the Vatican”. He did not elaborate and declined to comment further on Wednesday.

Avvenire, newspaper of the Italian bishops conference, called the investigation “offensive and inexplicable”.

IOR says the two requested transfers totalling €23m were from an IOR account held at Credito Artigiano to IOR accounts at two other banks. The Bank of Italy asked Credito Artigiano on September 15 not to execute the transfer because the beneficiaries were not identified in accordance with Italian and European Union money laundering regulations.

Italy’s central bank separately confirmed it had sent a circular to Italian banks on September 9 to remind them of the vigilance they were required to exercise in handling IOR transactions.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. Print a single copy of this article for personal use. Contact us if you wish to print more to distribute to others.

Source:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32298db0-c678-11df-8a9f-00144feab49a.html

[giovonni]

oh yeah :frog:

:angel::noidea:

Vatican says "misunderstanding" behind bank probe

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY | Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:06pm BST

Reuters) - A "misunderstanding" between banks was the cause for the Vatican Bank being investigated by Italian authorities on suspicion of money laundering, the Vatican said on Thursday.

The Vatican also said its bank, known as the Institute for Religious Works (IOR), was committed to "complete transparency" and it was working to secure inclusion in the "White List" of states which comply with international standards of banking.

It outlined its defence in a letter sent to the Financial Times and distributed by its press office to journalists in Rome in a defence of the image of the Holy See and that of its bank.

"The current problem was caused by a misunderstanding -- now being examined -- between the IOR and the bank which received the transfer order," spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said in the letter.

On Tuesday, Rome magistrates put the IOR's top two officials, President Ettore Gotti Tedeschi and Director General Paolo Cipriani, under investigation and froze 23 million euros (£19.28 million) of its funds in Italy.

Two recent transfers from an IOR account in an Italian bank were deemed suspicious by financial police and blocked. One was a transfer of 20 million euros to a German branch of a U.S. bank, and the other of 3 million euros to an Italian bank.

Lombardi's letter betrayed the Vatican's deep irritation that magistrates had opened the probe and made it public.

"The nature and aims of the transactions under investigation could have been clarified with great simplicity," he said.

TRANSFER OF OWN FUNDS

The Vatican has maintained that there was no wrongdoing involved because it was merely transferring its own money between its own accounts.

Lombardi said the Vatican wanted to "avoid the spread of inaccurate information and to ensure that no damage is caused to the activities of the Institute and the good name of its managers."

The IOR primarily manages funds for the Vatican and religious institutions around the world, such as charity organisations, religious orders of priests and nuns, and Catholic hospitals.

He said that while the IOR was "beyond the jurisdiction and surveillance" of the Bank of Italy because it is located in a sovereign state, it was committed to the norms of the European Union and Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) aimed at combating terrorism and money laundering.

Still, Lombardi's letter pointed to a sense of urgency in the Vatican after news of the probe put its bank on the front pages of newspapers worldwide, with echoes of past scandals.

The IOR was involved in the fraudulent bankruptcy of Banco Ambrosiano, then Italy's largest private bank, whose president Roberto Calvi was found hanged under London's Blackfriars Bridge in 1982. Several investigations failed to determine whether Calvi, known as God's Banker, had killed himself or been murdered.

The Vatican denied any responsibility for the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, in which it held a small stake, but made a "goodwill payment" of $250 million to Ambrosiano creditors.

The IOR's president, Gotti Tedeschi, 65, has been at the helm of the bank for a year and is a close adviser to Italian Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti.

A devout Catholic who has taught financial ethics at the Catholic University of Milan, he also heads an Italian unit of the Spanish Banco Santander, according to its website, and serves on the board of several major Italian banks.

Source:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE68M1O020100923

[PathWalker]

These are great news. Hallelujah.
First time, we read in the controlled media that a sovereign agency is confronting the Vatican in Italy.
I assume the Vatican will "discipline" that agency/people, in a very short time.

But this is the first bird, we might get more soon.
The sun light is the most effective medicine to the worst social ailments we carry.

[Studeo]

Vatican Bank Holocaust Litigation
www.vaticanbankclaims.com
info@brimstoneandcompany.com
+1 202-318-2406
$30 Million Vatican Bank Scandal Helps Holocaust Survivors
Rome: Tuesday's seizure of $30 million dollars from the secretive Vatican Bank (Institute for Religious Works) by the Italian Financial Police and a money laundering investigation of the top men at the bank has shook up the Holy See. While these were not the first or most spectacular allegations against the Pope's Bank it does give cause for hope to a group of elderly Holocaust survivors and their heirs from former Yugoslavia.
A ten year long lawsuit against the Vatican Bank over Holocaust victim gold deposited at the bank was dismissed last year by a US Federal Court - not on the facts but on the legal argument the Vatican Bank was immune from lawsuit as a sovereign organ of the Holy See.
The Italian seizure and criminal investigation is the first time the scandal plagued bank has been successfully interdicted. Two months ago the Holocaust survivors filed similar money laundering allegations with the European Central Bank in Frankfurt on grounds that Second World War era victim gold from the Vatican Bank deposits may have been used in the minting of gold Vatican Euros or used on the Vatican Bank balance sheet to support the Vatican Euro program. The Vatican agreed to oversight by the European Union when it became part of the Euro Zone.
According to the Holocaust survivors' attorney, Dr. Jonathan Levy, the European Central Bank was first contacted in early July but has yet to respond to the allegation that Vatican Bank money laundering and possession of concentration camp gold is in violation of the EU Vatican Monetary Treaty. This week's allegation strengthens the credibility of Holocaust survivors' claims against the bank.
Dr. Levy has indicated that if the European Central Bank does not act in the next few weeks, he will take the matter to the European General Court.
For more information contact:
Dr. Jonathan Levy
Attorney & Solicitor
1629 K Street NW Suite 300
Washington DC 20006 USA
+1-202-318-2406
info@brimstoneandcompany.com
www.vaticanbankclaims.com
Vatican Bank plaintiffs include these organizations:
Jasenovac Research Institute
Republic of Serbian Krajina in Exile
The Independent Council of Gypsies in Serbia

[giovonni]

:twitch:

These revelations about the Roman Catholic Church just get weirder and sadder. These women are obviously psychologically frail and so passionately in search of God that manipulating them through these mind trips seems particularly awful. And this scandal, like the pedophile one, has the same strange psycho-sexual religious S&M quality to it that seems to haunt so much of the Church's relationship with the larger society.
Stephan A. Schwartz

Vatican probes group tied to scandal

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/vatican%20consecrated%20women--363959241_v2.grid-6x2.jpg
This June 10, 2010 picture shows Silvia Vernudez, 37, of Venezuela, left, and Marcela De Maria y Campos, 38, of Mexico, during an interview in Rome. The life of those known as "consecrated women" is regimented down to the way they eat an orange, with silence the norm, e-mail screened and close friendships discouraged. But these women are not nuns _ they are lay members of the now-disgraced Legionaries of Christ order who dedicate their lives to the Catholic Church. Their situation has so alarmed Pope Benedict XVI that in May he ordered an extremely rare full Vatican investigation. Vernudez runs a house for consecrated women in the Philippines and was visiting the mother house in Rome, and Campos is a member of the Legionaries of Christ Regnum Christi. (AP Photo/Riccardo De Luca)


By NICOLE WINFIELD
updated 9/25/2010 8:50:09 PM ET

VATICAN CITY — It's a life regimented in excruciating detail, down to the way they eat an orange. Silence is the norm, information is limited, e-mail is screened, close friendships are discouraged and family members are kept at bay — all in the name of God's will.

Known as consecrated women, they are lay Catholics affiliated with a conservative religious order who dedicate their lives to the church, making promises of chastity, poverty and obedience similar to the vows taken by nuns.

But the cult-like conditions they endure so alarmed Pope Benedict XVI that in May he ordered an extremely rare full Vatican investigation of the obscure group, which operates in the U.S., Mexico, Spain, the Philippines and a dozen other countries. The inquiry is expected to begin in the coming weeks.

The alleged abuses came to light during an eight-month Vatican investigation into the Legionaries of Christ, a secretive religious order beloved by Pope John Paul II but now discredited because of revelations that its charismatic founder sexually abused seminarians and fathered at least three children.

The women belong to the order's lay wing, Regnum Christi, a global community of some 70,000 Catholics in more than 30 countries who have families and regular jobs yet participate in the mission of bringing people closer to Christ.

Only about 900 are consecrated — nearly all women, but also a handful of men. They give up possessions and ties to their former lives much in the way nuns or priests do. They adhere to Vatican-approved statutes that require them to "voluntarily renounce the use of their capacity for decision-making" — pledging unswerving obedience to their superiors.

In interviews with The Associated Press, eight former members from the U.S. and Mexico told of enduring emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse at the hands of superiors who told them they would be violating God's will if they broke any rules. They said their experiences left them, at least temporarily, unable to cope with real life once they got out.

"I feel like I was brainwashed," said J., an American who joined the movement shortly after graduation from a Catholic university in the late 1990s and asked that only her middle initial be used. Like most of the women who spoke to the AP, she did not want to be identified for fear of retaliation from the Legion.

"I really thought it was a mortal sin to break any one of the little rules that were laid out by the statutes or the directress," she said.

Four current members denied the movement was a cult, saying the rules were aimed at creating uniformity while fostering spirituality. Still, they acknowledged problems with the way women were recruited, saying that 18-year-olds shouldn't make lifelong promises after a six-week candidacy program.

"I think that what is happening to us, even if it's painful, to be very honest I think it was necessary," said Silvia Vernudez, a 37-year-old teacher from Venezuela who directs a house for consecrated women in the Philippines and was visiting the mother house in Rome.

"This is a crisis," she said. "There's no way we cannot say that. But it's a moment of growth."

The Vatican investigation of the consecrated women is the latest step in its crackdown on the Legionaries of Christ, founded by the Rev. Marcial Maciel in Mexico in 1941. Dogged for decades by allegations he sexually abused seminarians, no action was taken until 2006, when the Vatican sanctioned Maciel and ordered him to a lifetime of penance and prayer — though it did not say for what.

Only after his death in 2008 did the order admit publicly that he had fathered children and that the abuse allegations were true, spurring the Vatican investigation. In a May 1 announcement, the Vatican said it was taking over the order and would rewrite its constitutions. A little-noticed line of that directive also announced an investigation into Regnum Christi's consecrated members.

Such inquiries have been carried out only rarely, including the probe of U.S. seminaries after the sex abuse scandal exploded in 2002. While there have been no sex abuse allegations within Regnum Christi, the problems uncovered in the Legion — abuse of authority, suppression of dissent and a power structure built on unswerving obedience — are also rampant in consecrated life.

Former consecrated members told of having their lives manipulated by strict rules that occupied nearly every waking minute of their day and by an endless search for new recruits.

Nine years after she left the movement, J. can still rattle off the time stamps that dictated her day, starting with morning wakeup in which a woman would run into the dorm room at 5:20 a.m. and shout "Christ our King!" and the others would shout back "Thy kingdom come!"

"5:20 a.m. to 5:50 a.m., get ready," J. continued. "Morning prayer from 5:50 to 6 a.m. Six to 6:30, morning meditation. Six-thirty to 7:05 Mass. Seven-ten to 7:30 breakfast, 7:30-7:35 free time, then 7:35 chores."

Malise Lagarde, who left in August 2009 after 13 years, said she was reprimanded by her superiors when she asked questions about Maciel's double life, and was told that if she persisted, she would be putting her vocation at risk and abandoning God's will.

"Members are not allowed to question or think outside group-think," she said. "I know that members totally dismiss any discussion of the Legion and Regnum Christi as a cult — I did when I was still part of it — but it sure looks like one once you get out."

Mary, a 36-year-old American who was consecrated in 1996 and left eight years later, still shudders at the silence required of the women. Conversation was allowed only during certain times of the day and there was no talking at meals, except on certain feast days.

"Inside, the life we lived was a religious life that was even stricter than a lot of the convents in the world," said Mary, who is now a married mother in the Washington D.C., area. She spoke on condition of anonymity because she feared legal action.

Other former members recalled how close bonding with other women was frowned upon, so they grew emotionally dependent on their spiritual directors. Parents could call only once a month and visit once or twice a year. Women who lived overseas were allowed to return home every seven years.

Some of the more granular rules, obeyed by members but not approved by the Vatican's central authority, extended into every facet of life.

Members were told how to eat a piece of bread (tear off small pieces; never bite into it) and an orange (with a knife and fork). They were told how many movies they could see a year (six, selected for content); what television programs they could watch (news, debates, some sporting events, no drama or music shows); and to refrain from reading in the bathroom. Mail and e-mail were screened. Women who made mistakes were often publicly humiliated.

While a highly regimented life and isolation from friends and family are common for cloistered nuns and monks, such extreme rules are highly unusual for a lay Catholic movement, according to canonists and experts in religious law.

"There is not one community I'm aware of that has similar rules," said the Rev. Francis Morrisey, a canon lawyer at Ottawa's University of Saint Paul, who has written about warning signs in new religious movements.

The Rev. Andreas Schoeggl, a Legion spokesman in Rome, stressed the dining etiquette was designed to create uniform standards in an international movement where some members might feel uncomfortable with the table manners of others.

He claimed the obedience rules were modeled after the statutes of the Jesuits, with whom Maciel studied, and said they by no means implied a renunciation of decision-making or free will.

However, a Jesuit canon law professor, the Rev. Ladislas Orsy of Georgetown Law School, said sections of the Regnum Christi statutes, which were approved by the Vatican in 2004, could lead to potential abuse.

"No one can give away a basic component of his or her humanity and renounce totally his or her 'decision-making capacity' — unless (they) want to become a zombie," Orsy said in an e-mail. "It opens the way for an ignorant and unwise superior to mislead and to harm — seriously, permanently — his subjects."

Former superiors now say there was something terribly wrong with the way they exercised authority. Denisse, who ran a house for consecrated women in Mexico, said she left last year after more than a decade when she realized the psychological harm the movement was causing.

"If you had a fragile personality, people who wanted to be perfect, they broke you psychologically," the 40-year-old Mexican woman said.

The Catholic Church distinguishes between three "states" of life in the faith: clergy, lay people and consecrated people, which includes nuns and sisters, as well as hermits and monks. Being consecrated implies a definitive separation or setting apart from society.

When the women of Regnum Christi become consecrated, they pledge poverty, chastity and obedience before a Legion priest in a ceremony during which they receive a Bible and a crucifix. After two years, they get a ring signifying their "marriage" to Christ.

Among other things, what makes them different from being a nun is that they are making private promises to a person, not public vows made to God and approved by church authorities.

The consecrated women also lack certain canonical protections. For example, it's extremely difficult to kick out women who join religious orders like the Carmelites or Dominicans — an important provision given they have no income.

But former Regnum Christi women said when their superiors no longer wanted them, they were made to believe they didn't have a vocation and should leave.

"In a traditional structure, yes, you dedicate your whole life to the order, but the order also looks after you," particularly as you grow old and need medical care, said Pete Vere, a canon lawyer who has studied the Legion and Regnum Christi.

"It's like marriage — for better or worse. ... But here, it seems, they're benefiting from the youth and the zeal and they're telling these people: 'You have this vocation ... but we can cut you off at any time.'"

Schoeggl acknowledged there were no specific protections for lay consecrated members, but he stressed that canon law allows for interpretations that cover them.

The movement says it is proposing changes to some rules, such as the screening of e-mails and how often women can visit their parents. It also wants to see that women are more sure of their vocations before joining.

J. said she was totally unprepared for life on the outside.

"I didn't have a checking account. I had to find a car," she said.

"You come face to face with the world. You're not folding laundry for the salvation of souls anymore, you're selling perfume because you need to pay the rent."

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39354533/ns/world_news-europe/#

[giovonni]

it seems this thread will never run :bowl: out of material!! :tsk:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_b8cVMt5KsBc/RmtH74inbSI/AAAAAAAAAP4/MPF5xmV6Ra4/s320/CHURCH.gif

60 Percent of Chicago's Parishes Had Pedophile Priests: Study

Nearly 60 percent of Chicago's Roman Catholic parishes have had a priest publicly accused of sexually abusing a child, according to a report released by three advocacy groups.

The report, released Monday by Voice of the Faithful, African American Advocates for Victims of Clergy and Sexual Abuse, and the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP), revealed that that 97 priests have been publicly accused of sexual abuse in Chicago from 1917 to 2009.

"But the key word is 'publicly accused,'" SNAP founder and President Barbara Blaine said in a statement. "History, psychology and common sense tell us there are dozens and dozens of other offending nuns, seminarians, brothers, priests, bishops and lay employees who have molested or are molesting kids now whose identities are not known. And both groups of child molesters -- known and unknown -- have been at or worked at the 40% of the Chicago parishes that don't seem to have been affected."

Over the course of five years, the groups pored over information contained in The Official Catholic Directory and the Boston-based bishopaccountability.org, which chronicles the abuse crisis in the Roman Catholic Church.

In some cases, the groups discovered, the same parish employed multiple accused priests throughout the years.

A heavy concentration of the priests were found to be at churches in the Bridgeport, West Town, Lincoln Park and Garfield Ridge neighborhoods, the Chicago Tribune noted.

Church officials said they haven't seen the study and question some of its results.

From the description of what we have heard, it appears that the analysis and conclusions are questionable," said Colleen Dolan, the Director of Communication and Public Relations for the Archdiocese of Chicago.

Dolan said that all of the Archdiocesan priests who have had "credible accusations of clerical sexual abuse of a minor have been listed on the Archdiocese of Chicago's web site www.archchicago.org since 2006."

The Huffington Post has a document purported to be the raw data from the Voices of the Faithful study (.xls). It's said to include the names of priests and information on where and when they were employed by the Archdiocese.
First Published: Oct 12, 2010 6:13 PM CDT

Source;
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/chicago-archdiocese-priest-abuse-report-104819759.html

[giovonni]

Believe it or not this story is a positive and a step in the right direction for healing all.


Police block sex abuse survivors near Vatican
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Sun Oct 31, 5:50 pm ET

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20101031/capt.3d829aec560b4acb95230abf4aa73542-3a2b2fb27b0a49a38439f7feb1753bc3-0.jpg?x=229&y=345&q=85&sig=im3D4.rYHIhhV8mlTWe_Vg--
Members of the Survivor's Voice foundation, an association for alleged clergy abuse victims

ROME – Italian paramilitary police blocked a boulevard leading to the Vatican to prevent a march Sunday by some 100 survivors of clergy sex abuse from reaching St. Peter's Square, but later allowed two protesters to leave letters from the abused at the Holy See's doorstep.

The two also left a dozen stones near the obelisk in St. Peter's square to mark a symbolic path so other survivors might know they have company in their suffering.

The candlelit protest was the first significant demonstration in the shadow of the Vatican by people who had been raped and molested by priests as children, and organizers said it would be repeated until the Holy See takes decisive action to ensure children are safe.

"Today what began as quiet whispers are whispers no more," organizer Gary Bergeron told the crowd, which included about 55 deaf Italians from a notorious Catholic institute for the deaf in Verona where dozens of students say they were sodomized by priests.

Organizers had tried to stage the march on Vatican soil but were forced to hold it nearby after the Holy See denied permission. It is standard Vatican practice to ban non-Vatican-sponsored events from St. Peter's Square.

Sunday's protest kicked off with the unexpected arrival of the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, who said he had wanted to greet the organizers and had prepared a statement he hoped to read. He beat a hasty retreat to his office after a protester shouted "Shame, shame" in Italian.

Lombardi said later he left when he saw "it wasn't going to be easy" to meet with the organizers.

Bergeron met with Lombardi later inside his Vatican office and told him that abuse survivors had been "waiting a lifetime to be able to stand up and speak out."

After the demonstration, Bergeron accompanied several other survivors to speak with Lombardi and tell them their stories. They said they asked Lombardi to pass along their request to speak with other Vatican officials; Lombardi said he listened to their concerns and reasons for gathering.

The event, which aimed to show survivors worldwide that they are not alone, was organized by Bergeron and Bernie McDaid, who were abused by the same Boston priest starting when they were in the sixth grade. The two became some of the most prominent victims to speak out in the United States after the clerical abuse scandal erupted in their native Boston in 2002.

McDaid was the first victim to meet with Pope Benedict XVI when the pontiff visited the United States in 2008.

Bergeron and McDaid organized the rally after the scandal erupted anew on a global scale earlier this year, with revelations of thousands of victims in Europe and beyond, of bishops who covered up for pedophile priests and of Vatican officials who turned a blind eye to the crimes. They are seeking to have the United Nations designate systematic sexual abuse of children as a crime against humanity.

About 100 survivors from a dozen countries — Italy, Britain, the United States, Ireland, the Netherlands and Australia among others — took part in Sunday's protest, although they seemed outnumbered by journalists and police.

After Bergeron and McDaid spoke, large torches were handed out to the other survivors, many of whom wore T-shirts that read "Enough!" in English, Italian and German. The crowd, some toting signs that read "Hands off children," approached a line of carabinieri police, who blocked them from marching toward St. Peter's.

Eventually, Bergeron and another protester were escorted by police as they carried thick candles to the edge of the square. Vatican security guards accompanied them to the foot of the staircase leading to the Apostolic Palace's bronze entrance doors.

According to Bergeron's account, the two deposited the sealed letters from survivors addressed to the pope at the foot of the stairs, and after their passports were examined they were accompanied to the obelisk in the middle of the square. There they left a dozen stones in a pile — in the same way hikers leave piles of stones along mountain paths to show others that someone has been there before.

"The journey of a survivor is one step at a time. This is one step," Bergeron said after he had deposited the letters. "Today was very powerful for many survivors. This is the first time that a group of survivors this large has come together, and people have listened in Italy. In Italy! That's success to me."

At a briefing before the march, participants stood up one by one to tell how their lives had been destroyed by the abuse they suffered as children. Many recounted years of drug and alcohol addiction, eating disorders and other psychological and emotional problems.

"For 50 years I thought I was the only person in the entire world that had been abused by a Catholic priest," said Sue Cox, 63, from Warwickshire, Britain. She clarified herself: "Raped by a Catholic priest, not abused, because what he did was rape me and rape is different."

"It's taken 50 years for me to find my voice. But now I've found it, I want to continue to speak on behalf of people who maybe aren't able to speak or have not yet been able to face the fear and the guilt and shame that survivors feel."

Cox said she was raped in her bedroom when she was 13 by a priest who had been filling in for her parish priest and had been staying at her parents' home. Her mother discovered what had happened immediately — her nightgown was torn, she was bleeding — but did nothing, and instead told Cox to pray for the priest.

"I felt sacrificial," she said. "I wanted to die."

By 15 she was an alcoholic, by 17 she had entered into a violent marriage. By 30 she was clean, and now at 63 is confronting what she calls the final piece of her recovery — "the hardest bit" — speaking out about her abuse.

The pope has admitted the church failed to take sufficient measures to stop the abuse and has apologized to victims during several foreign trips. He has said victims were the church's top priority, although the Holy See itself has not initiated any wide outreach programs.

Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, said in the statement he had intended to read to the protesters that, while he didn't share all of their positions, there were points for consensus. He said he hoped the demonstrators could see in the church an ally in the broader fight to end child sexual abuse wherever it occurs.

"Of course, we must continue to do more. And your cry today is an encouragement to do more," he said. "But a large part of the church is already on the good path. The major part of the crimes belongs to times bygone. Today's reality and that of tomorrow are more beckoning. Let us help one another to journey together in the right direction," he said.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101031/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse

[giovonni]

i wonder why? :twitch:

Pope Benedict XVI sees 'aggressive secularism' in Spain

Pope Benedict XVI has warned of an "aggressive anti-clericalism" in Spain which he said was akin to that experienced during the 1930s.

He arrived in the pilgrimage city of Santiago de Compostela at the beginning of a two-day visit to Spain.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49828000/jpg/_49828482_010579386-1.jpg
Pope Benedict says he wants a "meeting between faith and secularism"

"The clash between faith and modernity is happening again, and it is very strong today," he told reporters on the plane, quoted by AFP news agency.

He is due to celebrate an open-air Mass and then travel to Barcelona on Sunday.

"Spain saw in the 1930s the birth of a strong and aggressive anti-clericalism," Pope Benedict said.

He urged a "meeting between faith and secularism and not a confrontation" in Spain and the rest of Europe.

In a speech in Spanish in Santiago de Compostela, he called for "a Spain and Europe concerned not only with people's material needs but also with their moral and social, spiritual and religious needs, since all these are genuine requirements of our common humanity".

Correspondents say many Spaniards turned away from the church following the rule of General Franco, as democracy and secularism became synonymous.

Despite protests from the Church, the current Socialist government has ended obligatory religious education in state schools and legalised abortion on demand in a drive to secularise.
Church consecration
Pope Benedict in Santiago de Compostela cathedral Pope Benedict says he wants a "meeting between faith and secularism"

Pope Benedict was greeted at the airport in Santiago by Crown Prince Felipe and Church officials.

In Barcelona, he is due to consecrate the Sagrada Familia church, still unfinished more than a century after Antoni Gaudi designed it.

This is Benedict's second visit during his papacy, and a third visit is planned next year for World Youth Day, a sign of how important the Vatican considers the health of the church in Spain.

Only 14.4% of Spaniards regularly attend mass, and legal changes to allow divorce, gay marriage and abortion have caused concern to the Catholic Church.

But 73% of Spaniards still define themselves as Catholic.
Kiss-in

In Santiago, the Pope prayed at the tomb of St James, the focus of pilgrimage to the city for many centuries. He will celebrate Mass outside the 12th century cathedral.

But some shopkeepers are disappointed by the number of people coming to the city for the Papal visit.

"There are still no people, we're very surprised," one souvenir shop owner told AFP news agency.

In Barcelona, gay activists are calling for a kiss-in outside the Sagrada Familia when the Pope arrives to consecrate it.

After his visit, the church will celebrate daily Masses for the first time since its construction was begun in 1882, although it is still not expected to be completed before 2026.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11703708

note~ here is a previous related story from May 2010~ missed~ but available below:
"Spain struggles with new Catholic sex abuse claims"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10122305

[giovonni]

Pope gathers cardinals at Vatican for consistory

19 November 2010

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50045000/jpg/_50045559_010563786-1.jpg
The Pope has tried to create more opportunities for the cardinals to discuss important issues


The Pope is holding a rare meeting with more than 100 cardinals from around the world for discussions on policy.

Religious freedom - the persecution of Christians in some countries and a dispute with China - and the clerical sex abuse scandal are on the agenda.

They will also discuss the decision to invite disaffected Anglican bishops and priests to join the Catholic Church.

The talks will be followed by the elevation of 24 new cardinals by Pope Benedict at a ceremony on Saturday.

Some cardinals have criticised the attention given to the sex abuse scandal.

"I'm tired of talking about this topic. I've had it up to here," Mexican cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan told reporters on the margins of the talks.

"It's a real media storm," he said.
'Pre-conclave'

Vatican spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi said no major developments were expected at Friday's talks.

This is the third consistory - or assembly of cardinals - of Pope Benedict's tenure, which began in 2005.

All 179 cardinals would only gather for a conclave - the meeting following the death or abdication of a pope to elect his successor.

But Pope Benedict has been attempting to create more opportunities for the cardinals to discuss important issues.

The event has been described by analysts as a pre-conclave, enabling the cardinals to see who could potentially succeed the German Pope.

They are also discussing religious freedom for Christians, following a recent rise in attacks on Christians in Iraq and a row with China over the ordination of bishops without papal approval.

On Saturday, a Chinese bishop, the Rev Guo Jincai, is due to be ordained in the city of Chengde, in Hebei province. He is a member of the state-backed church which does not recognise the pope.

The Vatican says it is disturbed by reports that bishops loyal to Pope Benedict are being forced to attend the ceremony.

"If these reports are true, then the Holy See would consider such actions as grave violations of freedom of religion and freedom of conscience," Fr Lombardi said in a statement.

The Vatican and China have had no diplomatic ties since the 1950s, when Beijing expelled foreign clergy, but their relationship had been improving in recent years.

The Pope's decision to welcome clerics who have defected from the Anglican Church - including those who are married - will also be discussed by the cardinals.

Benedict XVI has created a special enclave in the Roman Catholic Church for Anglicans unhappy with issues including the decision to let women and gay men become bishops. Five bishops have said they will convert under the scheme.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11793780

also related

Pope to shape College of Cardinals at consistory

more on this story here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11768191

[giovonni]

The Pope tweaks rules :decision: Benedict's acceptance of reality!



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50082000/jpg/_50082791_010665079-1.jpg


Pope's condom comments welcomed by campaign groups
The Vatican has long opposed the use of condoms as a form of contraception

20 November 2010

Catholic reformers and groups working to combat HIV have welcomed remarks by Pope Benedict that the use of condoms might not always be wrong.

The Pope said their use might be justified on a case by case basis to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids.

The remarks, due to be published in a book next week, mark a softening of his previously hard line against condoms in the battle against HIV, analysts say.

The Vatican has long opposed condoms as an artificial form of contraception.

This has drawn heavy criticism, particularly from Aids campaigners,who say condoms are one of the few methods proven to stop the spread of HIV.

'Significant shift'

Pope Benedict said during a visit to Cameroon last year that handing out condoms might actually make HIV infection worse, drawing criticism from several EU states.

In his latest comments, however, he said the use of condoms might be justified in exceptional circumstances.

He gave the example of male prostitutes where, he said, using condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS could be seen as an act of moral responsibility, even though condoms were "not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection".

If the Church has failed to get people to follow its moral values and practice abstinence, they should take the next best step and encourage condom use”

This marks a significant shift in his previously implacable opposition to the use of condoms, says the BBC's religious affairs correspondent, Robert Pigott.

UNAIDS, the United Nations programme on HIV/Aids, welcomed the comments as a "significant and positive step forward".

"This move recognizes that responsible sexual behaviour and the use of condoms have important roles in HIV prevention," said UNAIDS Executive Director Michel Sidibe.

The Kenya Treatment Access Movement (KETAM), which works to combat the spread of HIV, welcomed what it said was the Pope's acceptance of reality that abstinence did not always work.

"It's accepting the reality on the ground," said David Kamau, head of the KETAM. "If the Church has failed to get people to follow its moral values and practice abstinence, they should take the next best step and encourage condom use."

The Catholic reform group We Are Church said the comments showed the Pope was able to learn from experience.

The British gay rights campaigner, Peter Tatchell, told the BBC the Pope's comments were significant but needed "clarification".
'Not a moral solution'

The new book - Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times - is based on a series of interview the Pope gave the German Catholic journalist, Peter Seewald, earlier this year.

When asked whether the Catholic Church was not opposed in principle to the use of condoms, the Pope replied: "She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality."

Pope Benedict said the "sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalisation of sexuality" where sexuality was no longer an expression of love, "but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves".

Although Pope Benedict reiterated the Church's fundamental opposition to contraception, and repeated his view that condoms were not the answer to curbing HIV, he added that there was much in the area of sexual ethics that needed to be pondered and expressed in new ways.

Austen Ivereigh, coordinator of the Catholic Voices group, said that while this was the first time the Pope had voiced such an opinion on condoms, it was in line with what Catholic moral theologians have been saying for many years.

"The Church's teaching on contraception predates the discovery of Aids," Mr Ivereigh told the BBC news website.

"The prevalence of HIV raised the question of whether condoms could be used to prevent the transmission of the virus.

"If the intention is to prevent transmission of the virus, rather than prevent contraception, moral theologians would say that was of a different moral order."

But Clifford Longley, who writes for The Tablet, a British Catholic newspaper, said the development was far more significant than a nuanced change in attitude.

He said the "small concession... could easily become a collapse in the whole edifice of Catholic teaching on contraception".

"The implication seems to me to be much vaster than even the Pope anticipates," said Mr Longley.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11804943

[giovonni]

:nod: Oh yes~ i've been :pray: for this stuff to leak!


Ireland granted immunity to sex abuse church officials under pressure from Vatican, says WikiLeaks

By Tamara Cohen
11th December 2010

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/11/article-1337689-0B999538000005DC-575_233x423.jpg
Bold move: Pop Benedict invited disaffected Anglicans to join the Catholic faith


Ireland caved in to Vatican pressure to grant immunity to church officials in the investigation of decades of sex abuse by its clergy, newly released WikiLeaks documents have shown.Requests made by the Irish government for information 'offended many in the Vatican' who believed they had 'failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the investigation'.

But even without assistance from Rome the Irish were able to substantiate claims of abuse between 1975 and 2004. The Vatican also complained that 'some Irish politicians were making political hay with the situation by calling publicly on the government to demand that the Vatican reply.'Secretary of state Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone wrote to them insisting that requests must come down diplomatic channels.

The Irish exerted pressure behind the scenes to get senior officials to testify and senior church officials were sent to Rome to meet the Pontiff.However, Irish diplomat Helena Keleher said it was understood 'foreign ambassadors are not required or expected to appear before national commissions'.The Pope eventually released a statement saying he shared the 'outrage, betrayal and shame' of Irish Catholics.

The Irish government wanted to be seen as cooperating with the investigation because its own education department was implicated in decades of abuse, but politicians were reluctant to insist Vatican officials answer the investigators' questions, the cables indicate.One cable discloses the behind-the-scenes diplomatic maneuvers during which Irish politicians tried to persuade the Vatican to cooperate with the probe.

Today a Vatican statement said the WikiLeaks cables should be evaluated with 'reservations' and 'prudence', and not be taken as an 'expression' of the Holy See.The latest WikiLeaks disclosures also revealed that Britain's ambassador in the Vatican warned that the Pope could provoke anti-Catholic violence in the UK by offering to convert Anglicans who disagreed with women priests.

Francis Campbell was speaking to an American diplomat after Pope Benedict invited disaffected Anglicans to join the Catholic faith in a meeting with Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams. Mr Campbell, a Catholic himself, said the Pope’s scheme had left Britain’s relations with the Vatican ‘facing their worst crisis in 150 years’ and had put Dr Williams ‘in an impossible situation’.

Ambassador Noel Fahey apparently told U.S. diplomat Julieta Valls Noyes that the sex abuse scandal was a tricky one to manage. Mr Campbell's comments regarding women priests were also made to Mr Noyes.The Pope had announced a special dispensation for Anglicans to convert in groups while retaining their own leadership and some of their rites in a body called an Ordinariate. It had been arranged in Rome behind the backs of the English Catholic bishops and Dr Williams was given little warning.

An official Vatican statement described the November 2009 meeting between Dr Williams and the pontiff as cordial, but Mr Campbell said that it was ‘at times awkward’. At a subsequent dinner held in Dr Williams’s honour and attended by senior Vatican officials, Mr Campbell told Mr Noyes ‘Anglican-Vatican relations were facing their worst crisis in 150 years as a result of the Pope’s decision’, a cable sent to Washington shortly afterwards revealed.

The time period was a reference to the religious unrest caused in 1850 when Pope Pius IX reinstated the Roman Catholic church structure in a bid to re-establish the faith after 300 years of being downtrodden following Henry VIII’s break from Rome. Mr Campbell said: ‘The crisis is worrisome for England’s small, mostly Irish-origin, Catholic minority. There is still latent anti-Catholicism in some parts of England and it may not take much to set it off.’

He warned: ‘The outcome could be discrimination or in isolated cases, even violence, against this minority.’ The ambassador added that some Vatican officials believed the Pope had been wrong not to consult the archbishop before making the announcement. The cable continued: ‘The Vatican decision seems to have been aimed primarily at Anglicans in the U.S. and Australia, with little thought given to how it would affect the centre of Anglicanism, England, or the Archbishop of Canterbury.’

Reporting back to Washington, the U.S. diplomat wondered ‘whether the damage to inter-Christian relations was worth it – especially since the number of disaffected Anglicans that will convert is likely to be a trickle rather than a wave’. Just three of the Church of England’s 114 bishops have since announced they will join the new Ordinariate. It is expected they will be joined by 50 of the church’s 10,000 priests with elements of their congregations. In a separate conversation, Mr Campbell warned Mr Diaz that if many Anglicans decided to convert, the Catholic church in Britain could find itself financially stretched.

Other cables reveal the Pope wanted Muslim Turkey kept out of the EU and lobbied to keep the idea of ‘Christian roots’ enshrined in its constitution. The WikiLeaks releases also revealed that the Pope had a hand in gaining the release of 15 British sailors held by Iran. The Royal Navy personnel were held for a fortnight in 2007 after they were captured by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards while searching a merchant vessel off the Iran-Iraq border. They were released to mark Easter 13 days later.

A confidential briefing prepared for President Obama ahead of a visit to Rome in 2009 reveals the Pope contacted religious fundamentalists in Tehran. The documents states: ‘The Vatican helped secure the release of British sailors detained in Iranian waters in April 2007.’ The Vatican press office declined to comment on the content of the cables regarding the Vatican's influence over Ireland but decried the leaks as a matter of 'extreme gravity'.

The U.S. ambassador to the Holy See also condemned the leaks and said the Vatican and America cooperate in promoting universal values.

Source;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337689/Wikileaks-Ireland-granted-immunity-sex-abuse-church-officials-pressure-Vatican.html

[giovonni]

The Roman Catholic Church is the largest virtual state in the world. It is not unusual that an organization that large has the occasional bad person. That's to be expected. I find it hard to reconcile this, however, with the ongoing litany of corruption that seems to spill out every week or so from the Church. The corruption of its bank dates back at least to the 1970s.

Vatican bank mired in money laundering scandal


http://www.capitolhillblue.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/121110vaticanbank-300x183.jpg
This 1982 file photo shows US Archbishop Paul C. Marcinkus, a former head of the Vatican Bank. Behind the centuries-old facade of the Institute for Religious Works _ better known as Vatican Bank _ is a history of secrecy and scandal. Italian investigators were able to move against Vatican Bank as the Bank of Italy classifies it as a foreign financial institution operating in Italy. However, in one of the 1980s scandals involving the death of bankers, prosecutors were unable to arrest then bank head Paul Marcinkus, an American archbishop, because Italy's highest court ruled he had immunity. Marcinkus, who died in 2006 and always proclaimed his innocence, was the inspiration for Francis Ford Coppola's character Archbishop Gilday in "Godfather III." (AP Photo)

This is no ordinary bank: The ATMs are in Latin. Priests use a private entrance. A life-size portrait of Pope Benedict XVI hangs on the wall.

Nevertheless, the Institute for Religious Works is a bank, and it’s under harsh new scrutiny in a case involving money-laundering allegations that led police to seize euro23 million ($30 million) in Vatican assets in September. Critics say the case shows that the “Vatican Bank” has never shed its penchant for secrecy and scandal.

The Vatican calls the seizure of assets a “misunderstanding” and expresses optimism it will be quickly cleared up. But court documents show that prosecutors say the Vatican Bank deliberately flouted anti-laundering laws “with the aim of hiding the ownership, destination and origin of the capital.” The documents also reveal investigators’ suspicions that clergy may have acted as fronts for corrupt businessmen and Mafia.

The documents pinpoint two transactions that have not been reported: one in 2009 involving the use of a false name, and another in 2010 in which the Vatican Bank withdrew euro650,000 ($860 million) from an Italian bank account but ignored bank requests to disclose where the money was headed.

The new allegations of financial impropriety could not come at a worse time for the Vatican, already hit by revelations that it sheltered pedophile priests. The corruption probe has given new hope to Holocaust survivors who tried unsuccessfully to sue in the United States, alleging that Nazi loot was stored in the Vatican Bank.

Yet the scandal is hardly the first for the centuries-old bank. In 1986, a Vatican financial adviser died after drinking cyanide-laced coffee in prison. Another was found dangling from a rope under London’s Blackfriars Bridge in 1982, his pockets stuffed with money and stones. The incidents blackened the bank’s reputation, raised suspicions of ties with the Mafia, and cost the Vatican hundreds of millions of dollars in legal clashes with Italian authorities.

On Sept. 21, financial police seized assets from a Vatican Bank account at the Rome branch of Credito Artigiano SpA. Investigators said the Vatican had failed to furnish information on the origin or destination of the funds as required by Italian law.

The bulk of the money, euro20 million ($26 million), was destined for JP Morgan in Frankfurt, with the remainder going to Banca del Fucino.

Prosecutors alleged the Vatican ignored regulations that foreign banks must communicate to Italian financial authorities where their money has come from. All banks have declined to comment.

In another case, financial police in Sicily said in late October that they uncovered money laundering involving the use of a Vatican Bank account by a priest in Rome whose uncle was convicted of Mafia association.

Authorities say some euro250,000 euros, illegally obtained from the regional government of Sicily for a fish breeding company, was sent to the priest by his father as a “charitable donation,” then sent back to Sicily from a Vatican Bank account using a series of home banking operations to make it difficult to trace.

The prosecutors’ office stated in court papers last month that while the bank has expressed a “generic and stated will” to conform to international standards, “there is no sign that the institutions of the Catholic church are moving in that direction.” It said its investigation had found “exactly the opposite.”

Legal waters are murky because of the Vatican’s special status as an independent state within Italy. This time, Italian investigators were able to move against the Vatican Bank because the Bank of Italy classifies it as a foreign financial institution operating in Italy. However, in one of the 1980s scandals, prosecutors could not arrest then-bank head Paul Marcinkus, an American archbishop, because Italy’s highest court ruled he had immunity.

Marcinkus, who died in 2006 and always proclaimed his innocence, was the inspiration for Francis Ford Coppola’s character Archbishop Gilday in “Godfather III.”

The Vatican has pledged to comply with EU financial standards and create a watchdog authority. Gianluigi Nuzzi, author of “Vatican SpA,” a 2009 book outlining the bank’s shady dealings, said it’s possible the Vatican is serious about coming clean, but he isn’t optimistic.

“I don’t trust them,” he said. “After the previous big scandals, they said ‘we’ll change’ and they didn’t. It’s happened too many times.”

He said the structure and culture of the institution is such that powerful account-holders can exert pressure on management, and some managers are simply resistant to change.

The list of account-holders is secret, though bank officials say there are some 40,000-45,000 among religious congregations, clergy, Vatican officials and lay people with Vatican connections.

The bank chairman is Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, also chairman of Banco Santander’s Italian operations, who was brought in last year to bring the Vatican Bank in line with Italian and international regulations. Gotti Tedeschi has been on a very public speaking tour extolling the benefits of a morality-based financial system.

“He went to sell the new image … not knowing that inside, the same things were still happening,” Nuzzi said. “They continued to do these transfers without the names, not necessarily in bad faith, but out of habit.”

It doesn’t help that Gotti Tedeschi himself and the bank’s No. 2 official, Paolo Cipriani, are under investigation for alleged violations of money-laundering laws. They were both questioned by Rome prosecutors on Sept. 30, although no charges have been filed.

In his testimony, Gotti Tedeschi said he knew next to nothing about the bank’s day-to-day operations, noting that he had been on the job less than a year and only works at the bank two full days a week.

According to the prosecutors’ interrogation transcripts obtained by AP, Gotti Tedeschi deflected most questions about the suspect transactions to Cipriani. Cipriani in turn said that when the Holy See transferred money without identifying the sender, it was the Vatican’s own money, not a client’s.

Gotti Tedeschi declined a request for an interview but said by e-mail that he questioned the motivations of prosecutors. In a speech in October, he described a wider plot against the church, decrying “personal attacks on the pope, the facts linked to pedophilia (that) still continue now with the issues that have seen myself involved.”

As the Vatican proclaims its innocence, the courts are holding firm. An Italian court has rejected a Vatican appeal to lift the order to seize assets.

The Vatican Bank was founded in 1942 by Pope Pius XII to manage assets destined for religious or charitable works. The bank, located in the tower of Niccolo V, is not open to the public, but people who use it described the layout to the AP.

Top prelates have a special entrance manned by security guards. There are about 100 staffers, 10 bank windows, a basement vault for safe deposit boxes, and ATMs that open in Latin but can be accessed in modern languages. In another concession to modern times, the bank recently began issuing credit cards.

In the scandals two decades ago, Sicilian financier Michele Sindona was appointed by the pope to manage the Vatican’s foreign investments. He also brought in Roberto Calvi, a Catholic banker in northern Italy.

Sindona’s banking empire collapsed in the mid-1970s and his links to the mob were exposed, sending him to prison and his eventual death from poisoned coffee. Calvi then inherited his role.

Calvi headed the Banco Ambrosiano, which collapsed in 1982 after the disappearance of $1.3 billion in loans made to dummy companies in Latin America. The Vatican had provided letters of credit for the loans.

Calvi was found a short time later hanging from scaffolding on Blackfriars Bridge, his pockets loaded with 11 pounds of bricks and $11,700 in various currencies. After an initial ruling of suicide, murder charges were filed against five people, including a major Mafia figure, but all were acquitted after trial.

While denying wrongdoing, the Vatican Bank paid $250 million to Ambrosiano’s creditors.

Both the Calvi and Sindona cases remain unsolved.

Source;
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/36896

[giovonni]

Sounds like a plan... :amen:


"The Pope told cardinals and bishops that the church must avoid ordaining abusers"

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50499000/jpg/_50499776_010884240-1.jpg

Pope calls on Church to learn from abuse scandal

20 December 2010 Last updated at 09:51 ET


Pope Benedict has called for the Catholic Church to reflect on what allowed the sexual abuse of children by priests to happen.

The number of sexual abuse cases had reached "an unimaginable dimension" in 2010, the Pope said.

He also spoke of the "shame" the abuse crisis had caused the Church.

The abuse scandal, which first surfaced in the US in 2002, erupted globally this year with a raft of allegations across Europe and beyond.

"We have to ask ourselves what was wrong in our preaching, in our entire way of configuring the Christian being, to allow something like that to happen," Pope Benedict told cardinals and bishops gathered for his traditional Christmas audience in Rome.

"We have to take this humiliation as an exhortation for the truth and a call for renewal," he added.

However, the Pope also said the fault lay not only with the Church but also in the "context of our times".

"There exists a market of pornography regarding children that seems to be increasingly accepted as normal by society", he said.

The BBC's David Willey in Rome says thousands of victims of paedophile priests have come forward and bishops have been accused of covering up cases, allowing paedophile priests to continue their ministry.

The Vatican has now introduced fast-track rules for defrocking priests found to have abused children, our correspondent says.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12039499

[giovonni]

Killing us with love and kindness :yield:


22 December 2010 Last updated at 12:25 ET

Pope to deliver Thought For The Day on Christmas Eve

Pope Benedict XVI will deliver the Thought For The Day on BBC Radio 4 on Christmas Eve morning.



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50548000/jpg/_50548266_or101222120317_560525.jpg
Radio 4's Thought For The Day offers three minutes of personal reflection

His Christmas message to the British people follows a visit to the UK in September - the first official state visit to the country by a pontiff.

It is an unprecedented move, as Pope Benedict is not thought to have presented material specifically written for a radio or TV audience before.

The Pope recorded Thought For The Day in Rome on Wednesday.

Gwyneth Williams, the controller of Radio 4, said: "I'm delighted Pope Benedict is sharing his Christmas message with the Radio 4 audience."

"It's significant that the Pope has chosen Thought For The Day to give his first personally scripted broadcast - and what better time to do so than on the eve of the biggest celebration on the Christian calendar."
'Overkill'

Thought For The Day is broadcast within the Today programme at 0745 from Monday to Saturday.

It offers approximately three minutes of personal reflection from faith leaders and believers of a variety of religious denominations.

BBC Director-General Mark Thompson, a Jesuit-educated Roman Catholic, is understood to have approached Vatican officials about a contribution from the Pope ahead of his state visit.

The decision however has been criticised by the UK's National Secular Society.

"The BBC is giving the Pope an unquestioned slot to continue whitewashing his Church's disgraceful record on covering up child abuse by its priests," NSS president Terry Sanderson said in a statement.

"Why isn't the Pope being subjected the same rigorous questioning that other heads of state would get?

"After the overkill from the BBC during the Pope's visit, this indicates the corporation's obsession with religion, whereas the nation is largely indifferent to it," he added.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12063684

[giovonni]

To all here ~blessings & much joy ~ from within my heart to yours :love: giovonni

Pope prays for peace at Christmas Eve Mass in Vatican



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50576000/jpg/_50576961_010900853-1.jpg
The Pope lit a nativity candle from his window
24 December 2010 Last updated at 18:47 ET
Video and story here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12076575

[giovonni]

:pray: please.........just this one last... motu proprio :bs:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X6SfstKQluk/RmB_jAnFfmI/AAAAAAAAAJY/2tNLhzn1w9w/s320/Trautman2.jpg

Pope to Issue New Bank Norms Amid Laundering Probe
Vatican to issue new banking norms amid money-laundering probe

By NICOLE WINFIELD Associated Press
VATICAN CITY December 29, 2010 (AP)

The Vatican planned to issue new rules Thursday designed to make its financial transactions more transparent after a money laundering probe resulted in the seizure of 23 million euros ($30.21 million) from a Vatican account.

The rules are expected to create a compliance authority to oversee all Vatican finances, as required by EU and other international organizations involved in the fight against money laundering and terror financing.

Vatican officials confirmed Wednesday that Pope Benedict XVI's executive order — called a "motu proprio" — making the rules into law, would be released Thursday.

The Vatican has maintained it has been working for over a year to come into compliance with such international norms, but the effort went into high gear following the money laundering probe, which embarrassed the Vatican and its bank chairman, economist Ettore Gotti Tedeschi.

Rome prosecutors on Sept. 21 seized 23 million euros and placed Gotti Tedeschi and his deputy under investigation, alleging the bank broke the law by trying to transfer money without identifying the sender or recipient. The two men have not been charged.

The Vatican has insisted the probe resulted from a "misunderstanding" that it hoped to clarify quickly. But twice Rome courts have refused to release the money, with a judge earlier this month saying nothing had changed in the way the Vatican guards the identity of its clients.

The Vatican bank is formally named Institute for Religious Works, or IOR, in Italian.

Gotti Tedeschi, who was named chairman of the IOR last year, has said he has been working to get the Vatican on the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's "white list" of countries that share tax information to crack down on tax havens.

To do so, though, often can take years as the Vatican must enter into tax information sharing agreements with at least 12 other countries after making a formal commitment to transparency.

n addition, the Vatican has committed to come into compliance with the norms of the Financial Action Task Force — the Paris-based policymaking body that develops anti-money laundering and anti-terror financing legislation, FATF officials say.

The FATF requires the Vatican to pass legislation making money-laundering a crime; to establish an entity to report suspicious transactions and then investigate them; and to pass legislation requiring that the bank identify its customers properly and make that information available to law enforcement agencies.

Finally, the Vatican has agreed to make into its law EU directives on money laundering that are required of euro-zone countries, EU officials say.

It wasn't clear which of these provisions would be included in the Vatican document being released Thursday. The Vatican, however, has pledged to create the compliance authority by Jan. 1, 2011 and faced a Dec. 31, 2010 deadline to implement the EU directives on money laundering.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Source;
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=12498735&page=2

[giovonni]

http://sdick007.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/religious_wars1.gif?w=247&h=283


*********************************

1 January 2011 Last updated at 09:50 ET

Pope Benedict XVI to hold religious peace summit


Pope Benedict XVI has said he will organise a summit in Assisi with religious heads to discuss how they can promote world peace.

In a New Year message, the Pope also condemned inter-religious violence, including attacks against Christians in the Middle East.

The summit in the Italian city will be held in October, 25 years after Pope John Paul organised a similar event.

His announcement came hours after a bomb went off at a church in Egypt.

At least 17 people died in the blast at the Coptic Christian Church in the northern Egyptian city of Alexandria, sparking a clash between Christians and Muslims.
'Discrimination'

Speaking in St Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Pope Benedict said the aim of the summit would be to "to solemnly renew the effort of those with faith of all religions to live their faith as a service for the cause of peace".

"Facing the threatening tensions of the moment, especially discrimination, injustices and religious intolerance, which today strike Christians in a particular way, once again, I make a pressing appeal not to give in to discouragement and resignation," he said.

He said the summit would also "honour the memory of the historical event promoted by my predecessor".

Pope John Paul hosted a similar event in 1986, which was attended by leading Jews and Muslims, as well as the Dalai Lama and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Pope Benedict has repeatedly denounced attacks on Christians in Iraq, including an assault on a Baghdad cathedral in October which killed at least 50 people. The Vatican fears that the violence is driving many Christians out of the region.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12103186

*********************************

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/01431/religion_and_war_cartoon.jpg

[giovonni]

:director: LIGHT...CAMERA...ACTION...:bad:

i can see it all now...coming to a big screen near you...the rituals & glorification of demons :pray:

Jan 5 201Jan 5 2011 09:10 AM ET

Exclusive: Discovery, Catholic Church team for exorcism series

by James Hibberd

http://ewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/exorcist-von-sydow.jpg?w=287&h=215

Discovery Channel is teaming with the Vatican for an unprecedented new series hunting the deadliest catch of all: Demons.

The Exorcist Files will recreate stories of real-life hauntings and demonic possession, based on cases investigated by the Catholic Church. The project includes access into the Vatican’s case files, as well as interviews with the organization’s top exorcists — religious experts who are rarely seen on television.

“The Vatican is an extraordinarily hard place to get access to, but we explained we’re not going to try to tell people what to think,” says Discovery president and GM Clark Bunting.

Bunting says the investigators believe a demon can inhabit an inanimate object (like a home) or a person. The network executive says he was initially skeptical when first meeting the team but was won over after more than three hours of talks.

“The work these folks do, and their conviction in their beliefs, make for fascinating stories,” Bunting says.

If the show’s first season is successful, the network hopes its partnership with the Church will pave the way for producers GoGo Luckey to take the series to the next level — joining Catholic investigators on live demon-purging ride-alongs. (Move over, Syfy’s Ghost Hunters.)

Exorcist Files marks one of two new series coming to the network and first reported by EW. The other is the intriguing Disappeared (working title), produced by Pilgrim Films, which will test whether its possible to really “go off the grid,” as contestants ditch their identities and attempt to hide anywhere in the world from a team of trackers. More details on Disappeared here.

The Exorcist Files will debut this spring on Discovery Channel; an exact date has not yet been set.

Source;
http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/01/05/discovery-exorcist-files/

[giovonni]

An Epiphany!

Extra...Extra...Read All About It...:alien:

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110106/capt.b4e483dbd70540a0b5b764270dd35150-b4e483dbd70540a0b5b764270dd35150-0.jpg?x=400&y=258&q=85&sig=JI7KOdewUYYnUpiInm2K8A--


God was behind Big Bang, universe no accident: Pope

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday.

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St Peter's Basilica on the feast day.

While the pope has spoken before about evolution, he has rarely delved back in time to discuss specific concepts such as the Big Bang, which scientists believe led to the formation of the universe some 13.7 billion years ago.

Researchers at CERN, the nuclear research center in Geneva, have been smashing protons together at near the speed of light to simulate conditions that they believe brought into existence the primordial universe from which stars, planets and life on earth -- and perhaps elsewhere -- eventually emerged.

Some atheists say science can prove that God does not exist, but Benedict said that some scientific theories were "mind limiting" because "they only arrive at a certain point ... and do not manage to explain the ultimate sense of reality ..."

He said scientific theories on the origin and development of the universe and humans, while not in conflict with faith, left many questions unanswered.

"In the beauty of the world, in its mystery, in its greatness and in its rationality ... we can only let ourselves be guided toward God, creator of heaven and earth," he said.

Benedict and his predecessor John Paul have been trying to shed the Church's image of being anti-science, a label that stuck when it condemned Galileo for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun, challenging the words of the Bible.

Galileo was rehabilitated and the Church now also accepts evolution as a scientific theory and sees no reason why God could not have used a natural evolutionary process in the forming of the human species.

The Catholic Church no longer teaches creationism -- the belief that God created the world in six days as described in the Bible -- and says that the account in the book of Genesis is an allegory for the way God created the world.

But it objects to using evolution to back an atheist philosophy that denies God's existence or any divine role in creation. It also objects to using Genesis as a scientific text.

(Editing by Tim Pearce)

Source;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110106/ts_nm/us_pope_bigbang

[giovonni]

10 January 2011 Last updated at 13:56 ET

Pope urges Pakistan to repeal blasphemy law

Pope Benedict XVI has called on Pakistan to repeal its blasphemy laws, which can carry a death sentence for insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50738000/jpg/_50738067_010984015-1.jpg
Pope Benedict made his remarks in a traditional address to ambassadors at the Vatican


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50737000/jpg/_50737988_jex_920928_de27-1.jpg
Video and story here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12156825

[giovonni]

This coming from a conference of so called "princes of the church" kind of sorta like :twitch:
"the pot calling the kettle black"


Catholic leaders warn of 'totalitarian' Venezuela http://www.kpsplocal2.com/media/lib/53/d/3/a/d3a791b4-f696-453c-b0b5-b7ae1250e246/Story.jpg

The Associated Press
Tuesday, January 11, 2011; 5:12 PM

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Roman Catholic leaders in Venezuela are calling for President Hugo Chavez to give up special lawmaking powers granted to him by his congressional allies.

The Venezuelan Bishops' Conference condemned a package of laws approved last month by the National Assembly, including one that grants Chavez power to enact laws by decree for the next 18 months. Chavez gained those powers shortly before a new congress took office with more opposition lawmakers.

A statement from the bishops released Tuesday accuses Chavez of trying to impose a totalitarian system in Venezuela.

Chavez and the bishops have feuded for years. Chavez has accused the Catholic leadership of neglecting the poor and of siding with his opponents and the rich.

Source;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011105388.html

[Arrowwind]

He He He... I love it. Could it be the taste of sweet revenge that the church should be revealed or is it the senation of glory that thousands if not millions of human souls are being released from their bondage.

For the life of my, I do not understand why they do not tear the Vatican down brick by brick.

[slipknotted]

assassins creed video games say it all corupt to the core.

[giovonni]

we (as Gods) created our bodies to heal themselves. :thumb:

Pope paves way to beatification of John Paul II

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50799000/jpg/_50799515_011010418-1.jpg
John Paul II suffered from Parkinson's Disease himself

14 January 2011 Last updated at 07:29 ET

Pope Benedict XVI has formally approved a miracle attributed to his late predecessor, paving the way to John Paul II's beatification on 1 May.

The process of beatification, or declaring the late pontiff to be "blessed", is a crucial step towards making him a saint.

John Paul II died in 2005 after a papacy of nearly 27 years.

The Vatican credits him with the miraculous cure of a nun said to have had Parkinson's Disease.

Church officials believe that the Polish pope, who himself suffered from the condition, interceded for the miraculous cure of Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, a Frenchwoman in her late forties.

She has said her illness inexplicably disappeared two months after John Paul II's death, after she and her fellow nuns had prayed to him.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50801000/jpg/_50801040_011010608-1.jpg


Church-appointed doctors agreed that there was no medical explanation for the curing of the nun, although last year there were some doubts about the validity of the miracle.

A Polish newspaper said that a doctor who scrutinised the nun's case had concluded that she might have been suffering not from Parkinson's, but from a nervous disorder from which temporary recovery is medically possible.

Up to a million people are expected to gather in Rome for the beatification.

Mourners at John Paul II's funeral on 8 April 2005 chanted: "Santo subito!" - or "Make him a saint right now!"

The following month, Pope Benedict put him on a fast track to sainthood by dispensing with Church rules that normally impose a five-year waiting period after a candidate's death before the beatification procedure can start.

Work is under way in St Peter's Basilica to make space for John Paul II's tomb since, in accordance with tradition, the remains of popes who are beatified are moved up from the crypt to the nave.

"John Paul II's coffin will be moved in St Peter's Basilica from the Vatican crypt without being opened," said Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi.

His body will not be displayed but placed in a tomb under a simple marble stone reading "Beatus Ioannes Paulus II" (Blessed John Paul II).

In order for John Paul II to be canonised as a saint, a second miracle would have to be verified following the beatification.

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12191423

More on This Story

The 'miracle' that led towards beatification
By Stephanie Holmes
Story here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12192639

Q&A: John Paul II's beatification
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12194694

[giovonni]

More Contamination :fish2: Throw Em Back!

The Anglican Church is better off without them ~

***********

Ex-Anglican bishops ordained as Catholics

15 January 2011 Last updated at 10:11 ET

Three former Anglican bishops, unhappy with the ordination of women, have been ordained as Roman Catholic priests at Westminster Cathedral.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50813000/jpg/_50813210_011019041-1.jpg
The former Anglican bishops were ordained together in Westminster Cathedral


Their ordination signals the inauguration of a special section of the Catholic Church for such Anglicans.

Keith Newton, Andrew Burnham and John Broadhurst will take up roles in the section known as the Ordinariate.

Father Newton has been chosen as leader of what is to be known as the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham.

The BBC's religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott said this was a reference to a shrine in Norfolk, which is visited by both Anglicans and Catholics.

Other traditionalist Anglican clergy have spoken of their sadness and anger about the bishops' conversion.

Father Burnham, former bishop of Ebbsfleet, along with fellow "flying bishops" Father Newton - ex-bishop of Richborough - and Father Broadhurst - ex-bishop of Fulham - had all formerly supervised Church of England parishes that had opted out of contact with women priests.

Father Newton has estimated that about 50 more Anglican clergy might join the Roman Catholic church in the coming months - along with members of their congregations.

The Most Rev Vincent Nichols, leader of Catholics in England and Wales, carried out the ordination ceremony.

He acknowledged that the path the three had taken had involved "some sad parting of friends".

He also said the process of joining had involved "painful misunderstandings, conflict and uncertainty".

He added: "Many ordinations have taken place in this cathedral during the 100 years of its history. But none quite like this."

Archbishop Nichols said this latest ordination ceremony was "a unique occasion marking a new step in the life and history of the Catholic Church".

Like some other traditionalist clergy on the Catholic wing of the Church of England, the three former Anglican bishops opposed the introduction of women bishops, and do not believe sufficient provision was being made for traditionalists to avoid coming under the jurisdiction of women.

The Vatican will allow them to maintain a distinct religious identity and spiritual heritage within the Ordinariate.

'Basic principle'

Other Anglican traditionalists have warned that the bishops' departure will jeopardise the future of the Church of England as a broad Church able to balance its Protestant and Catholic traditions.

The former Bishop of Ballarat in Australia, the Right Reverend David Silk, has previously announced that he will also be joining the Roman Catholic Church.

Referring to Saturday's ceremony, he said: "The truth is the Church of England has decided to take its cue from the society it lives in, instead of its cue from Christ and carry the gospel that he preached to them - as we would see it.

"So, it may have to serve the whole community, but it doesn't have to tell the community what everybody wants to hear. Sometimes you've got to stick out for a basic principle and say, well, I'm sorry, that's the truth as I see it."

A spokesman from the Church of England declined to comment specifically on Saturday's ordinations but said the Church "wished anyone well who is on a journey of faith, as all of us are".

When asked if the new Ordinariate could result in large numbers of Anglican clergy and parishioners switching, he said: "The truth is, we just don't know how large those figures will be, or how small they will be.

"We have no indication they will be significant, but clearly we will be watching very closely to see."

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12197985

More on this:
Rome goes fishing in Anglican pond

"The ordination of former Anglican bishops as Roman Catholic priests could fundamentally change the Church they leave behind. ” Robert Pigott BBC religious affairs correspondent

Story;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8318663.stm

[giovonni]

Enough said...its all over but the shouting...
Note this is my last post on this thread :tsk:


Vatican officials told Irish not to report child abuse

19 January 2011 Last updated at 06:22 ET

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50857000/jpg/_50857208_010832535-1.jpg


A Vatican department advised Ireland's Catholic bishops in 1997 not to report priests suspected of child abuse to the police, a newly revealed letter shows.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50857000/jpg/_50857193_011048426-1.jpg

Obtained by Irish broadcaster RTE, the letter shows Vatican officials rejected an initiative to begin the "mandatory reporting" of abuse claims.

The proposed policy "gives rise to serious reservations", it says.

The Vatican has persistently said it never instructed bishops to withhold suspicions or evidence of crimes.

Abuse victims in Ireland and the US said the letter, which RTE said it had received from an Irish bishop, was a "smoking gun" that would serve as important evidence in lawsuits against the Church.

But the Vatican said it represented an approach to sex abuse cases shaped by a particular Vatican office, the Congregation for the Clergy, before 2001.

In that year, Pope John Paul II asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - then led by the future Pope Benedict XVI - to handle such cases.

Veteran Vatican analyst John Allen said that, while embarrassing, the letter was "not a smoking gun because it is not a directive. Not an order. This is one Vatican official giving his opinion. It is not a policy document.

"It's another confirmation that, in the late 1990s, there was deep ambivalence in the Vatican about how far they should go in terms of reporting priestly sex abuse to civil authorities," said Mr Allen, a reporter for the National Catholic Reporter.

'Not new'

The January 1997 letter signed by the late Archbishop Luciano Storero, Pope John Paul II's chief representative to Ireland, was written a year after an advisory committee of Irish bishops drew up a new policy that included "mandatory reporting" of suspected abusers to the police.

In the text, the bishops were told that the Congregation of the Clergy had studied their new policy and wished to "emphasise the need for this document to conform to canonical norms presently in force".

"The situation of 'mandatory reporting' gives rise to serious reservations of both a moral and a canonical nature," the archbishop wrote.

Bishops who tried to impose punishments outside canon law, he warned, might see their actions overturned when the cases were heard in Rome.

"The results could be highly embarrassing and detrimental to those same diocesan authorities," the letter added.

Archbishop Storero wrote that the Congregation of the Clergy was trying to establish "some concrete directives" on the matter.

In the meantime, he added, "the procedures established by the Code of Canon Law must be meticulously followed under pain of invalidity of the acts involved if the priest so punished were to make hierarchical recourse against his bishop".

Joelle Casteix, a director of the US group Survivors' Network of Those Abused by Priests, described the letter as "the smoking gun we've been looking for".

She said investigators had long sought a document showing the Vatican "thwarting any kind of justice for victims".

"We now have evidence that the Vatican deliberately intervened to order bishops not to turn paedophile priests over to law enforcement," she told the Associated Press news agency.

"This letter shows what victims have been saying for dozens and dozens of years: What happened to them involved a concerted cover-up that went all the way to the top."

Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the letter was genuine.

But he told the New York Times: "It refers to a situation that we've now moved beyond.

"That approach has been surpassed, including its ideas about collaborating with civil authorities."

Fr Lombardi said the letter was "not new", and insisted that "they've known about it in Ireland for some time".

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12222612

[Icecold]

Here is an extract from a lecture by Alex Collier which goes to the heart of this problem.....

The Future, Self-Responsibility and Self-Determinism:

Q: I see a parallel in a lot of belief systems, and I wonder if it is a part of the overall historical world
programming. Basically, the New Age people think there is going to be a transition into a new
consciousness, like you are talking about. I see the same kind of mechanism in the Christian belief system,
in terms of the "rapture." I see a lot of people involved with the UFO material thinking "they are coming
down to save us." There are four or five different versions of this, depending on what state of
consciousness those groups happen to be in. Basically, to me, the message is "just lie down and let the
tanks roll over you." It is to deflect one away from {the concept of) personal responsibility. Do you have
any thoughts on that?

AC: Yes sir, I do. I once asked Vasais to give me a "definition" of our future and what it was going to be. He
said that he couldn't tell me - that it all involved probabilities. I said to him, "then what can you tell me?"
He said, "well, I can give you a definition". This is the definition of where we are supposed to be going - and
he says that we will reach this point. He said: "Responsible freedom of self determination, becoming truly
self-confident and free to unconditionally be responsible for one's self, without be coerced to accept some
higher authority." What we are looking for, we already are. As far as wanting to be saved, and I know this
is a real touchy subject, if you want to be saved, that's fine. But, between now and the time you do get
saved, be responsible for yourself, and teach your children to be responsible for themselves. We are
supposed to become a race of leaders - not a race of sheep. We are supposed to be chiefs - that is what
they teach their people - nobody falls behind - we all evolve together. The children are supposed to be
taught everything that we know, and more.
Nothing is supposed to be withheld from children, because they are the next level of consistency. I can't
believe what they are "teaching" children in school today. They are teaching them nothing. Nothing. They
can't solve any problems for themselves. They are being taught what to think so they can spit back facts,
like a computer. They are not being taught to think for themselves. Folks, we owe it to them to teach them
how to think for themselves. Schools are just baby-sitters. In the Andromedan system, the people who are
held in the highest regard are the teachers, because they are the ones that affect all the future
generations. Here, half of the teachers are starving. We are doing this think backwards. We are going to
have to make changes, and its going to have to be us who does it. Whether it's home schooling, or we go
to Washington and fire everybody and start all over again.


The Andromedan Perspective on Human Biblical Matters:

As far as the "savior scenario" is concerned, I have been told that it has been put into our belief systems to
disempower us. Now, this is touchy, so I am just going to share with you what they have said. And, I am
going to "pick" on the New Testament, and I apologize. Again, I am not trying to offend anybody. I am just
sharing information that they have given me. This is their perspective. Most of the Old Testament,
especially Genesis, consists of pirated versions of Chaldean texts that were constructed in 651BC. The
being that we have been taught is one person, Moses, is in fact two people. One of the people was Moab, a
Chaldean chief, and the other one was Prince Sesostres in Egypt. The authors in 651BC put the two
together and created a composite character. So, it is not what it appears to be.
When we get to the New Testament, the nine Epistles of Paul were apparently brought from India by
Apollonius of Tyana. The four Gospels were obtained by Harriman Armandi in India. There were Hindu in
their original form, written by Apollonius, who was also known as Paul the Apostle. The being that we know
as Jesus did in fact live. He was crucified through the palms. But, according to the Andromedans, he did not
die, but lived out the rest of his life and died at Massada in 64 AD. Now, I don't know about all of this - I
wasn't there. They also say that the last version of the Gospels and the Epistles were translated by
Euphilius, a Catholic bishop, and that the original books in their original form are at the University of Upsal,
and that they are called the Codex Argentinus. The original handwriting is in Sumerian. That is all I know,
and again that is their perspective.
Q: What about Adam and Eve?
AC: It was a tribe, not just two beings, according to the Andromedans. We received the "Cliff Notes"
version of it.
Q: The idea that Moses may in fact have been a composite character doesn't seem to detract from the idea
that "he" was in the right place at the right time, and was able to be a leader.
AC: You are absolutely right. Now, where is the best place to hide a lie? Between two truths. You change it
just enough so you can't put the pieces together. Remember, this whole thing is about self-responsibility,
self-rule and self choice. They have altered the truth just enough that it has kept all of us holding back,
waiting, and waiting. Lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime. Here we are, making a decision to hold
ourselves back, because we are waiting for someone to come and save us. It isn't going to happen. They
say it just isn't going to happen. They don't want to come in here and "save" us, because they don't want
to baby-sit, and then if something "happens", we can always "blame them", and the cycle starts all over
again. We don't have time - the Earth is sick. We have no other place to go. I know this is not the answer
you want to hear. It's not the answer I want to hear, because it means I really have to bust my ass to fix
my life. But, I don't have a choice. It's just the way it is.
Q: But there is a saving reality. There is the truth that brings people the challenge to grow internally to be
able to keep up when the planet goes into 4th and 5th dimension. It puts a great responsibility upon us as
individuals.
AC: Right. Now, let is assume that Jesus is a reality. Jesus did say, "ye shall be greater if ye shall have
faith." There's a profound message in that - "these things I do, ye shall do greater, if ye have faith." There
is a profound message there. Please don't ignore it. You are awesome. Every one of you is awesome. Don't
buy what you have been told (in cultural social reality). It is a lie. You are awesome.

[giovonni]

:ballchain:Darn it... every time i try to close this thread... these vactican stories pull me back in :rant:

Vatican 'troubled' by Berlusconi sex case

The Vatican has said it is troubled by the latest sex allegations made against the Italian prime minister.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50868000/jpg/_50868327_011046988-1.jpg
Mr Berlusconi said he had nothing to be ashamed of

'Berlusconi's women' in pictures here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11982228

Magistrates on Friday opened an investigation into Silvio Berlusconi, alleging that he had paid an under-age prostitute.

He has dismissed the investigation as politically motivated and vowed to punish the magistrates behind it.

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said those in authority should show a more "robust morality".:twitch:

"The Church urges and invites everyone, especially those who hold a position of public responsibility [...] to commit themselves to a more robust morality, a sense of justice and legality," Cardinal Bertone said, in a rare public and openly critical comment by the Holy See on the matter.

'Unacceptable charges'

He said the Vatican, which was following the matter "with great attention and concern", shared the concerns of the Italian President Giorgio Napolitano.

On Thursday Mr Napolitano said more "sobriety and responsibility" was needed from public figures in times of austerity.

prime minister broadcast a 10-minute TV message, denouncing the investigation as procedurally flawed and vowing to pass new laws to prevent magistrates pursuing elected officials.

The president of the Italian magistrates' association, Luca Palamara, told Italy's SkyTG24 television network Mr Berlusconi's comments were "unacceptable" and "seriously threatened the autonomy and independence of the prosecutors".

Much of the investigation focuses on Karima El Mahroug, an 18-year-old Moroccan belly-dancer who attended Mr Berlusconi's parties when she was 17 and, prosecutors say, was paid to have sex with him. Sex with a prostitute aged under 18 is an offence in Italy.

Both Mr Berlusconi and Ms Mahroug have denied having sexual relations, and she has described a sum of 7,000 euros (£5,900) that he gave her as a gift.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50873000/jpg/_50873956_011057992-1.jpg
Ms Mahroug has denied being paid to have sex with the prime minister


Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12245730

[giovonni]

Recently ~ i posted a story here on this thread #216 Exclusive: Discovery, Catholic Church team for exorcism series,
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?631-At-the-Vatican-Up-Against-the-World&p=90305#post90305

Apparently it seems this old church rite is quite...'Back in Black'...:rolleyes:

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/catholic%20bishops%20exorcism--977741104_v2.widec.jpg

The Return of the Catholic Exorcism


by Christina Koningisor, Jan 27 2011

Foaming at the mouth, rolling of the eyes, assuming serpentine characteristics in the face or body: all classic signs, explains Father Gary Thomas, of demonic influence.

Father Thomas, pastor of the Sacred Heart Parish in Saratoga, California, is an avid Giants fan and a 28-year veteran of the priesthood. He is also a practicing exorcist; in the fall of 2005, Father Thomas traveled to Rome to complete a year-long training course under the tutelage of a master Italian exorcist. The story of his training inspired The Rite, a Warner Brothers film starring Anthony Hopkins that opens in theaters Friday.

The Catholic Church does not maintain official statistics on exorcisms. Yet Bishop Paprocki estimates that there are only around 30 priests in the United States qualified to perform the Rite of Exorcism, and he argues that these priests must contend with a growing number of exorcism requests. The exorcism conference included sessions devoted to canon law and the dangers of an improperly performed exorcism, and the bishop hopes to eventually create a network of exorcists that extends across the United States. He also envisions the establishment of a formal program to train the next generation of exorcists. "The priests who have this responsibility get exorcism requests from all over the country," he explains. "We want to prevent these priests from being overburdened."

Roughly a quarter of active bishops in the United States registered for the event, underscoring a growing interest in the Rite of Exorcism--a ritual that has remained, among American Catholics, relatively obscure. Historically, Catholics in the United States have been concerned with successfully assimilating into a majority-Protestant culture, explains Mathew Schmalz, a Professor of Religion at the College of the Holy Cross. They began to distance themselves from religious practices that came across as odd or out of place: the 1949 exorcism that inspired the 1970's film The Exorcist, for example, was the last to be held in the archdiocese of Washington, D.C.

Today, however, broader changes within the church's leadership and its flock have brought attention back to the ritual. Many of today's Catholic worshippers are drawn from immigrant communities with a strong tradition of religious exorcism, explains Schmalz, and their members are accustomed to seeking priestly assistance with the expulsion of satanic influences. He believes that the movement also stems from an effort to reclaim the centrality and distinctiveness of the priest's role. "There is a feeling that priests' lack of specialness is among the reasons for a decline in interest in joining the priesthood," he says. "If a priest has the power to cast out demons, that's a lot of power."

Father Thomas, however, points to more insidious forces: he views the rising demand for exorcisms as a consequence of increased involvement in the occult. And once the door has been opened to satanic influence, he warns, it is both difficult and dangerous to close. An improperly trained exorcist can place both himself and his charge in great peril: "As a cardinal rule you never talk to demons," he says. "Demons are, by their nature, devious, and they lie. They can engage you in all kinds of conversation to throw you off track."

The priest recently conveyed this advice to Anthony Hopkins, one of the stars of The Rite--a film that joins a long tradition of dramatic fictionalized depictions of the church's battles with the devil. Yet the reality of Catholic exorcism, cautions one Pennsylvania-based priest, is far more banal. "The worst people do is growl or make noise," he says, "although I had one client who repeated the first three lines of 'Hickory Dickory Dock' over and over again--and that drove me crazy."

Rather than a spectacle of spinning heads and violent tantrums, he says, a true exorcism does not necessarily lend itself to the big screen; the real torment and suffering is internal.

Despite this fictional portrayal, Father Thomas is also the embodiment of a new trend in the American Catholic church: Long the purview of American cinema, Catholic exorcism is being reclaimed, publicly, by its real-life practitioners. A factual account of Father Thomas's training has been published in a book by journalist Matt Baglio; the Discovery Channel recently announced the airing of a reality show featuring the accounts of trained Catholic exorcists (though the Vatican has denied any official involvement with the series); and last November, Bishop Thomas John Paprocki of the Diocese of Springfield in Illinois convened a two-day conference to discuss the practice of exorcism within the Catholic Church.

Source;
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-return-of-the-catholic-exorcism/70364/

[Icecold]

Exorcism

There are two common kinds of exorcisms. Deprecatory and Imprecatory. Lay people should not do public imprecatory exorcisms.

Note: There is some disagreement about whether it is OK to give a devil a direct command in the name of Jesus when it is dealing with our own person or a father praying for his immediate family. The Vatican web site contains no information about this, nor does the Catechism or Otto's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. If the Magisterium (Pope's office) issues any kind of statement or directive on this I will post it. I have heard compelling arguments on both sides.

Deprecatory Exorcism

The first kind of exorcism is called a deprecatory exorcism (for example the Lord's Prayer) where we ask God, his angels and Saints to cast out the evil one. This does not involve a direct command to the devil. This is the only kind of exorcism which lay people should perform. The Church encourages us to do this. One of the best is the prayer of St. Michael the Archangel:

ST. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL

(Latin Version) Sancte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio contra nequítiam et insídias diáboli esto præsídium. Imperet illi Deus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, princeps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in mundo, divína virtúte, In inférnum detrude. Amen

(English Version) Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

Imprecatory Exorcism

The 2nd kind is what we might have seen in the movie the exorcist. It is to be performed only by a Priest who has been given permission by a Bishop. It is below. It is called an imprecatory exorcism. And it involves a direct command to the devil (to leave the person or article - for example).

This is should only be used by a priest who has experience with exorcism and who has been given permission by his Bishop. It done in the name of Christ and his Church. It is very dangerous and not a game. A warning by Cardinal Ratzinger is below.
THE FOLLOWING TRANSLATION of Carinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict XVI) was prepared by EWTN Online Services. It is not an official translation, and is not to be circulated without this warning.

ON THE CURRENT NORMS GOVERNING EXORCISMS

Inde Ab Aliquot Annis

Issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on September 29, 1984.

Excellentissime Domine,

For several years, in certain areas of the Church, assemblies formed to pray for liberation from the influence of demons (though they do not perform exorcisms as such) have been increasing in number. These assemblies are often led by members of the laity, even when there is a priest present.

Since the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been asked what is the proper attitude towards these activities, this Dicastery deems it necessary to make known to all Ordinaries the response which follows:

1. Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law declares that no one may licitly perform exorcisms on those who are possessed [obsessos], unless he has obtained particular and express permission from the local ordinary (section 1), and it decrees that this permission is to be granted by the Ordinary only to priests who are outstanding in piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life (section 2). Bishops are therefore strongly urged to enforce the observance of these prescriptions.

2. It follows also from these same prescriptions that Christ's faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. Let all bishops take care to admonish the faithful about this matter whenever such instruction is required.

3. Finally, for the same reasons, Bishops are asked to guard lest those who lack the required power attempt to lead assemblies in which prayers are employed to obtain liberation from demons, and in the course of which the demons are directly disturbed and an attempt is made to determine their identity. This applies even to cases which, although they do not involve true diabolical possession, nevertheless are seen in some way to manifest diabolical influence.

[EWTN theological note: Paragraph 3 applies this prohibition to obsession (of persons) and infestation (of places). CBD]

Of course, the enunciation of these norms should not stop the faithful of Christ from praying, as Jesus taught us, that they may be freed from evil (cf. Mt 6:13). Moreover, Pastors should take this opportunity to remember what the tradition of the Church teaches about the function properly assigned to the intercession of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, the Apostles and the Saints, even in the spiritual battle of Christians against the evil spirits.

May I take this occasion to convey my great feelings of esteem for you, remaining

your servant in the Lord,

Joseph Card. Ratzinger, Prefect

[giovonni]

Since were on the subject of exorcism thought some might appreciate this ~ i grew up in the Washington D.C. and have some firsthand real (life) connections to this very real story. Note the local neighborhood in Mt Rainier, Maryland (a suburb) of Washington D.C., had ongoing poltergeist activity throughout the initial phase of the young boys possession. The local fire department would later raze the home in which this incident occurred a few years after the events happened :twitch:

http://creepshowmayhem.com/images/possesion/01-newspaper_clip.jpg


The True Story of the Exorcist
This is the True Story of the Real Exorcism that "The Exorcist" was Based On

"The True Story of The Exorcist

This is a story about the real exorcist experience. We all know about the movie, "The Exorcist" starring then child star Linda Blair. Some people don't know that the movie was based on the true experience that happened to a 13 year old boy named Robbie. Robbie and his family lived in Maryland. One of the family members that Robbie was very close to and the one that had a huge impact on him was his aunt. Robbie enjoyed board games and one game that his aunt introduced him too was the Ouija Board. Everyone knows when it comes to Ouija Boards, the one main rule is not to play alone. Robbie on the other hand enjoyed playing things alone and did dabble with the spirit game when he was alone also.

Around Jan 15th 1949, strange things started happening in the house. The family noticed alot of different noises, such as scratches and dripping. They tried desperately to find the cause of the noises but could not find anything. Eleven days after the strange noises started, Robbie's favorite aunt died suddenly. Robbie continued using the Ouija Board, but now it was mostly to contact his aunt. When the aunt died the scratching noises then stopped. It was at this time that new noises started but in Robbie's room.

The bed would shake, table's would move across the room. Vases would fly through the air. Even Robbie's desk at school would move without explanation. Of course his parents took Robbie to see a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, psychic and a minister. The first three found nothing. Only one comment was left and that was that Robbie seemed to be normal.

The family called in a Lutheran minister, Rev. Schulze. Schulze observed everything that was happening in Robbie's home and he also had Robbie come to his own home and studied him there. Schulze prayed with the family and asked the church to pray for the boy, nothing he did or said could help Robbie. The things that were happening around the boy were getting worse, and the boy could no longer sleep. If he was on the bed, the bed would shake, on a chair...the chair would tip, if he was on the floor...he would be elevated and float under the bed and bounce up and down against the springs. When all these things would happen, Robbie seemed to be in a trance.

About a month and a half later, the scratches started to appear on Robbie. Once the scratches started appearing, Schulze decided it was time to contact the Catholic Church since the Lutheran church did not believe in Exorcism but the Catholics were known to believe in those things. Robbie and his parents then visited Father Hughes. Hughes gave Robbie's father candles and holy water and him to light the candles and to sprinkle the holy water around the house as well as the boys room. So Robbie's mother, desperate to try anything did what Hughes told them to do. When she placed the holy water on the dresser the bottle crashed to the floor and when she lit the candle, the flames shot up so high that she was afraid the house would catch fire. She called Father Hughes and told him this and he told her to try again and the second time she called him the table that the phone was on just broke apart.

The priest decided to go to the house himself to see what was happening and when he went to Robbie's room the boy started speaking in Latin, although he didn't know the language. He told the priest that he was the devil and to leave him alone. The priest then contacted the Archbishop and according to some accounts was then authorized to begin an exorcism. Robbie was taken to a hospital and strapped in a bed and the exorcism began. From the movie's accounts of the exorcism we all know what happened. Lots of different curses hurled at the priest and any nuns in the room in a different language. The bed moving across the room, trays hurled across the room that the nuns would bring in. At one point, it is said that Robbie got one of his hands out of the restraint and worked one of the springs from the bed loose and slashed the priest's arm. It was said that it took over 100 stitches to close the wound and the exorcism was not continued and the priest became withdrawn and seemed beaten and haunted after the incident, although Hughes never did say any of this in his interviews.

Robbie was soon released from the hospital and the whole incident was basically covered up. The family decided to move away from that house but even though they moved, it didn't stop what was happening to their boy. The family then discussed moving to St Louis, but only temporarily. While they discussed it Robbie screamed and his mother went to investigate. Scratched across the boys chest in blood was the word Louis. While she was telling her son that they would leave soon another word was scratched in her son's skin that said Saturday. Then another scratch that said 3 1/2 weeks. So Robbie's mother then decided that they would follow the instructions since they really didn't know what else to do. When the family arrived in St Louis they decided to try another priest but this time another Lutheran Minister. Along with the rest of their family they also experimented with another Ouija Board.

Robbie's mother wanted to somehow prove that the spirit making all these strange things happen was Robbie's aunt and not the devil. His aunt did make her presence known but after that more strange things started to happen. The family then moved on to another relatives house. Robbie's mother had wanted to put Robbie back in school right there with his cousin but at the mere mention of it, more scratches appeared all over Robbie's body that said NO. So the idea was dropped.

Many more things happened, many more priests were called in and many dramatic things happened. Robbie ended up in a psychiatric ward and Father Bowdern kept up with the exorcism. Father Bowdern wanted to have Robbie Receive Holy Communion. The demon that had taken over Robbie's body kept identifying itself as the devil and refused to allow the boy to take communion. After days of trying to get the boy to take communion he decided that in the morning the boy was almost normal and then tortured by the demons mostly at night so he decided on a Wednesday morning he would try once again. Robbie began to struggle and then in another voice he said, "God has told me to leave at eleven tonight, but not without a struggle". Then for twenty minutes the boy was in a rage, the worst the priest had seen yet. Of course eleven came and went and the demon did not leave. Father Bowdern kept trying to give the boy communion or even just make him say that he wanted to receive communion but every time Robbie would start to say the words, he could never get communion out. Finally the next morning, which was Holy Thursday they were able to give the boy communion with no problem.

It was decided that on Easter Sunday before 6:30 in the morning that the priests would give Robbie communion and then take him to mass in the chapel. They awakened the boy and after a couple of attempts finally got him to take communion. Then when they were preparing for the mass, the boy got up and started going into a rage again and the demon told them that he would not allow them to take him to mass. The next morning was even worse then the day before. The demon or demons were getting bolder. At 10:45 p.m. a new voice came from Robbie. This voice seemed to be the voice of St. Michael who commanded satan and the other demons to leave the boys body. For the next 8 minutes the boy went mad with rage. Then he turned to them and said, "He's gone!"

Robbie awoke the next morning and told the priests all about the dream he had about St. Michael and the way the saint fought the demons. That afternoon after Robbie's nap he awoke and remembered absolutely nothing of his ordeal at all. He woke and asked "Where am I? What happened?" Then there was an explosion that sounded like a gun shot in the hospital that everyone heard. Then everything was over, just like that.

Now in order to believe this story you have to believe that possession is possible. The book that gives every detail of this story is called, "Possessed, The True Story Of An Exorcism." It was written by Thomas B. Allen and I highly recommend this book if you are interested in exorcism in any way. The movie was a great movie, especially for this Halloween month. If you really want full details though, you can't beat reading the book. There were many details that I skipped to keep this article from going on forever so please read the book. It is definitely worth it!"


http://www.syndetics.com/index.aspx?type=xw12&upc=&oclc=&isbn=9780385420341/LC.GIF&client=weldp

[the_flyingboy]

very shocking...and you hear people like them calling us sinners,and its not just the catholic church its the orthodox church too,i know cause i'm greek and i hear many stories simular and much more horrific stories.A few which i've heard has got to do with sexual,money laundrying with millions of euros involved and even destoying old graves throwing the old remains in the dump to make room for new graves because there is lots of money in it.

[the_flyingboy]

i agree i've played all 3 games and even got to see the "truth" video its shocking but when you put things down isn't what our ancestors have been telling us?

[giovonni]

This is truly and utterly over the top...

"The implosion of the Roman Church over financial and sexual issues seems from the outside both tragic and absurd. From the inside it must be unutterably sad. Here is its latest scene. Perhaps because I still have images from Rosemary's Baby in my memories, I just can't get to the place where one's sexuality is so distorted this could take place.

Father Thomas Euteneuer made a career of being judgmental and condemning of others; yet found it o.k. to look down at a woman he believed to be possessed by demons, in the midst of his carrying out one of the Church's most mysterious rituals, and thought: God, I'd like to have sex with her. What could one say: The devil made me do it."
Stephen R. Schwartz

Exorcism - Sex: Father Thomas Euteneuer's controversial confession
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/hash/0e/d4/0ed49ebac16a61f8f0913746e987a003.jpg

Earlier this week Father Thomas Euteneuer made a confession to a sexual indiscretion during an exorcism. The confession has rocked the Catholic Church and the anti-abortion movement. The Priest had once been an up and coming "rock star" in the Catholic Church and a "superstar" of the international pro-life movement as President of Human Life International.

A secret scandal in August forced Euteneuer to quietly resign his positions of authority and take a low profile in the church. Until last week, when one of Euteneuer's "exorcism" victims was rushed to a Florida emergency room. At that time the scandal broke wide open, and Euteneuer was forced into making a public confession.

The former superstar of the international pro-life movement, and exorcist for the Catholic Church, has now confessed to sexually abusing at least one woman under his spiritual care.
The scandal had been shrouded in secrecy, leaving only rumors and innuendo as concerned members of the Catholic Church and the pro-life movement tried to find answers for Euteneuer's disappearance from the public stage.

There should be no surprise that the church and Euteneuer tried to make the rumors and allegations of misconduct go away. This is standard operating procedure for the Catholic Church. And for six months they were able to maintain their conspiracy of silence.

Yet Euteneuer's controversial confession yields more questions than answers. Euteneuer claims:

My violations of chastity were limited to one person only, an adult woman;
The violations of chastity happened due to human weakness but did not involve the sexual act;
The accusation that I “targeted” vulnerable women or otherwise sought them out for spiritual direction is utterly false and a serious defamation of my character and ministry;

The entire confession rings hollow, and defensive. The fact that he denies his "violation of chastity" did not "involve the sexual act" seems counter intuitive. How can a violation of chastity not involve a sexual act? Also, the fact that his victim was under his spiritual care, and deemed to be possessed by demons, lends little credibility to the claim that he did not target vulnerable women.

No doubt their is more to the story. Whether or not more details will surface, remains a mystery.

Source;
http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/exorcism-sex-father-thomas-euteneuer-s-controversial-confession

[giovonni]

:pray: aah...bless me father...for you.. oops...i mean...i could of...perhaps...somebody might of sinned :cell:

***********

Catholic church gives blessing to iPhone app[

The Catholic Church has approved an iPhone app that helps guide worshippers through confession.

The Confession program has gone on sale through iTunes for £1.19 ($1.99).

Described as "the perfect aid for every penitent", it offers users tips and guidelines to help them with the sacrament.

Now senior church officials in both the UK and US have given it their seal of approval, in what is thought to be a first.

The app takes users through the sacrament - in which Catholics admit their wrongdoings - and allows them to keep track of their sins.

It also allows them to examine their conscience based on personalised factors such as age, sex and marital status - but it is not intended to replace traditional confession entirely.

Instead, it encourages users to understand their actions and then visit their priest for absolution.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51146000/jpg/_51146321_51146320.jpg
The app guides users through different elements of the sacrament

Our desire is to invite Catholics to engage in their faith through digital technology," Patrick Leinen of developer Little iApps told Reuters.

The launch comes shortly after Pope Benedict XVI gave urging to Christians to embrace digital communication and make their presence felt online.

In his World Communications Address on 24 January, he said it was not a sin to use social networking sites - and particularly encouraged young Catholics to share important information with each other online.

"I invite young people above all to make good use of their presence in the digital world," he said.

He warned them to keep in mind that digital communication was part of a bigger picture, however.

"It is important always to remember that virtual contact cannot and must not take the place of direct human contact with people at every level of our lives."

Confession's developers, who are based in Indiana, said they took the Pope's words to heart when they were preparing the application for public consumption.

"Our goal with this project is to offer a digital application that is truly 'new media at the service of the word'," said the company.

The firm said the app was developed with assistance from several priests and had been given the church's imprimatur by Bishop Kevin Rhoades of the Diocese of Fort Wayne in Indiana.

A spokesperson from the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales told BBC News the app was a "useful tool to help people prepare for the Sacrament of Reconciliation".

"The Church believes in embracing new technology and this creative app will hopefully help people to make a good confession."

It is thought to be the first time the church has approved a mobile phone application, although it is not entirely unfamiliar with the digital world.

In 2007, the Vatican launched its own YouTube channel.

Two years later created a Facebook application that lets users send virtual postcards featuring the pontiff.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51146000/jpg/_51146075_51146074.jpg
Pope Benedict XVI has said Catholics should use digital technologies responsibly. :angel:

Source;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12391129

[giovonni]

The continuing dismantling of a religious organization...http://newsjunkiepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/eng_vatican_apologi_613610g.jpg

This story just never seems to end. There were three reports, from different parts of the country, just today. I chose this one because it gives a small sense of overview. I found this: "In the United States, Roman Catholic archdioceses have collectively paid some $2 billion in settlements to victims since the priest sex scandals first erupted in Boston nearly a decade ago," astonishing.

US diocese agrees to $77 million abuse settlement

By Tom Hals
WILMINGTON, Delaware | Thu Feb 3, 2011

(Reuters Life!) - A Roman Catholic diocese in Delaware agreed to settle 142 claims of sexual abuse by priests for $77 million, a spokesman for the diocese said on Thursday.

The settlement by the Wilmington diocese is roughly $3 million more than the diocese proposed in mid-January, when it said payouts would likely range from $75,000 to $3 million per victim, depending on the severity of the alleged abuse.

The diocese filed for bankruptcy in 2009 due to mounting sex abuse claims dating as far back as the 1950s.

In the United States, Roman Catholic archdioceses have collectively paid some $2 billion in settlements to victims since the priest sex scandals first erupted in Boston nearly a decade ago.

This settlement covers the diocese, with a Catholic population of about 233,000, and its parishes but not religious orders.

Attorney Jeff Anderson, who represented some of the Delaware victims and is a leading attorney in clergy abuse cases, praised the settlement as "welcome relief" for victims after years of litigation.

"This settlement, when approved by the court, will help them economically to further their healing but, just as important, the noneconomic reforms they devised and won will help vulnerable children now and in the future," Anderson said in a statement.

A state jury recently found the St. Elizabeth Parish, which is part of the diocese, owed purported victim John Vai $3 million.

Vai said he was molested as a teenager in the 1960s by Francis DeLuca, a priest who later left the priesthood.

The Wilmington diocese said its offer was higher than the average claims paid by five other diocese in bankruptcy court settlements -- Fairbanks, Alaska; Davenport, Iowa; Spokane Washington; Tucson, Arizona; and Portland, Oregon.

There have been higher settlements outside of bankruptcy. The Los Angeles archdiocese paid a $660 million settlement, estimated at $780,000 per victim, and the San Diego diocese settled for about $825,000 per victim, for a total of $198 million, according to the watchdog websiteBishopAccountability.org.

Milwaukee's Roman Catholic archdiocese said on January 4 that it would file for bankruptcy due to the financial drain of unresolved lawsuits brought by purported victims of sexual abuse by priests.

(Additional reporting by Andrew Stern; Editing by Ellen Wulfhorst and Peter Bohan)

Source;
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/03/idINIndia-54647020110203

[giovonni]

The continuing dismantling of a religious organization..brick by brick!
http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n31/fall_from_grace/transfiguration_church_1

Cardinal Ad Simonis accused of protecting abuser priest

11 February 2011

A senior figure in the Dutch Catholic Church protected a priest who sexually abused children, Dutch media reports say.

Cardinal Ad Simonis is accused of knowing of the allegations made against the priest when he transferred him to another parish, where he abused again.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51199000/jpg/_51199763_011107234-1.jpg
Cardinal Ad Simonis

According to AFP, Mr Simonis said that at the time he believed that the priest - who has not been named - had changed.

He said the priest's renewed abuse in Amersfoort was "lamentable".

The priest was moved from his parish in Zoetermeer to a parish in Amersfoort after the local bishop complained about his abuse, Radio Netherlands says.

Ad Simonis - who served as archbishop from 1983 to 2007 - Radio Netherlands reports, did not tell the new parish of Amersfoort about the allegations against the priest, or monitor his behaviour.

Dutch officials say six of the priest's victims reported incidents to the police from 1987 to 2008, the radio station reports.

Erwin Meester, who says he was abused by the priest, is quoted as telling Radio Free Netherlands that Cardinal Simonis "wilfully and knowingly gave a paedophile his protection, when he should have been protecting the faithful under his care".

Outrage

According to AFP the cardinal admitted in a statement that he was "aware" of the priest's history. He said the priest had undergone therapy and received "serious, written psychological advice" which he believed was "adequate" ahead of the appointment.

He also added that there had never been any signal from the parish that the priest "had fallen back into child abuse", saying the allegations first came to light on Wednesday.

The cardinal, now retired, caused outrage last year when, commenting on abuse within the Catholic Church in the Netherlands said that they had known nothing of it.

He repeated a phrase in German, rather than Dutch, which is associated with Nazi excuses after World War II.

In March 2010, Dutch bishops ordered an independent inquiry into more than 200 allegations of sexual abuse of children by priests, in addition to three cases dating from 1950 to 1970.

Allegations first centred on Don Rua monastery school in the eastern Netherlands, with people saying they were abused by Catholic priests in the 1960s and 70s.

This prompted dozens more alleged victims from other institutions to come forward.

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12429539

[Kano]

Is any member of this forum well-versed in ritualistic abuse of children? I need to ask some questions. Thanks for any help you can give in advance.

With Heart,
Kano

[giovonni]

Is any member of this forum well-versed in ritualistic abuse of children? I need to ask some questions. Thanks for any help you can give in advance.

With Heart,
Kano

Greetings Kano,
i'm afraid that's a subject, i have very little knowledge or taste for? But, i've heard from others, that Alex Jones has filmed rituals (at the Bohemian Grove), and they are supposedly on Youtube? Also David Icke has also explored into this subject as well. i'm sensing your inquiry, is of a legitimate purpose of course, so i suggest you might Google it. Note, if this is, say ~ in regards to the rumors connected to the Illuminati group experiences, maybe you could also ask this of Charles (Atticus), and see what he knows about this subject? Maybe a private (pm), might be the most appropriate means of doing this. i hope this is of some help to you? Gio

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[giovonni]

If someone could clarify for me... Is the Vatican the top dog organization when it comes to secret societies? There are all these secret groups, and supposedly the Illuminati was just a smaller organization that lasted for a couple of decades, and eventually it was amalgamated into the Jesuit Order. So, I assume, the Illuminati never had the vast range of power the people thought it did.

Thank you trenairio, for your post and inquiry.

The simple answer to your question is and has always been.. follow the money. The secret power structures on this earth, continually jockey for "control" upon this plane of existence. But, here is an excellent and comprehensive paper in regards to...Secret Societies/ New World Order by Milton William Cooper
http://www.illuminati-news.com/secret-societies-nwo.htm

Note, what ever they pass off to their lower level blinded followers as "truth," whether in a catchy slogan or purposeful creed, these organization only operate from a base of instilling fear. Never (and i repeat never), allow these inhuman controllers to fed upon your spirit energies and sovereignty, by manipulation or intimidation. They will never control nor posses what they do not resonate with- human empathy, compassion and love. The only thing that truly matters, if you are awaken and living in the now, is to stay in the love within your own heart.

***********

more on the late ~ Milton William Cooper
bio
http://www.hourofthetime.com/william.htm
more info here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_William_Cooper



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmvgKx1KoQg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhxGnZks4H8&feature=related

[giovonni]

in memory of Milton William Cooper... something to ponder upon...

The New Age Infiltration of the Truth Movement: Final Cut


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QAGRx5UEwk&feature=related

View this full docmentary here;
http://vimeo.com/8095612

[giovonni]

For the record, at this time in my life, i do not believe nor subscribe to any religious dogma.
My only desire, is too awaken my own Christ Consciousness within my own heart.

[greybeard]

Im with you my friend
Chris

[Amer]

Does your head ever ache under the weight of the quest though? The seeking of Truth- be it scientific, evolutionary, theological or else- is exciting, fulfilling and so many other positive things; but there are times I feel laden down by it all, the hidden agendas, the constant power struggle, the rotten tainting of things, the blatant malicious disinformation.
So much of this thread pertains to my reality; an Irish catholic, one of Ireland's most notorious abusers within the clergy was at one time my secondary school religion teacher, now I live in Italy and I love it dearly but am confronted by a level of ingrained political corruption and religious hypocrisy that at times you have to shut off the media-it becomes too much.
Recently what seemed to be an interesting eco/spiritual Italian based community came to my knowledge and my interest peeked but alas on further research and a visit to them to say that I was disappointed would be an understatement, there was a feeling of something a lot more sinister afoot. And hence my weary feeling- apologies for this ! I know Truth comes from within, but in doing that there is the stage of looking outward into the matrix that we find ourselves in, confronting our ideas of Truth... and therein lies my frustration :-( Is there anything we can believe in again?

[giovonni]

Does your head ever ache under the weight of the quest though? The seeking of Truth- be it scientific, evolutionary, theological or else- is exciting, fulfilling and so many other positive things; but there are times I feel laden down by it all, the hidden agendas, the constant power struggle, the rotten tainting of things, the blatant malicious disinformation.
So much of this thread pertains to my reality; an Irish catholic, one of Ireland's most notorious abusers within the clergy was at one time my secondary school religion teacher, now I live in Italy and I love it dearly but am confronted by a level of ingrained political corruption and religious hypocrisy that at times you have to shut off the media-it becomes too much.
Recently what seemed to be an interesting eco/spiritual Italian based community came to my knowledge and my interest peeked but alas on further research and a visit to them to say that I was disappointed would be an understatement, there was a feeling of something a lot more sinister afoot. And hence my weary feeling- apologies for this ! I know Truth comes from within, but in doing that there is the stage of looking outward into the matrix that we find ourselves in, confronting our ideas of Truth... and therein lies my frustration :-( Is there anything we can believe in again?


Amer, yes there is something to believe in again...Youself...Just reading your post gives me hope...And allows me to continue believing in myself. Note, i realize for some the previous posted docu-video, might of been a bit layered with conflicting info and difficult in discerning; Especially for those currently in the awakening phase, from this long clouded slumber of deceit. The producer never really offered any clear alternative or did he? Allow me to contemplate your post. You and i share much in common in these regards, so i will try and give You my best insight...Gio

note~ you might find this interesting
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch-%28James-Gilliland-and-Trout-Lake%29&p=146182#post146182

[truthseekerdan]

For the record, at this time in my life, i do not believe nor subscribe to any religious dogma.
My only desire, is too awaken my own Christ Consciousness within my own heart.

Hey Giovonni,

Once you make it "your own", isn't that an ego (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=146275&viewfull=1#post146275) thing?

JK :lol:

[Icecold]

Giovonni. The consciousness that you are seeking is NOT "Christ consciousness". You are attaching labels to something higher that does not need those labels.

While you hold onto the labels, you are limiting your search and awakening. Compromise isn't an option as the baggage will remain firmly in place.

Know the tree by its fruits. That should be enough for anyone to search for a healthy tree. You are pruning and pruning, but it remains the same tree.

Dogma is dogma is dogma. Greybeard also falls constantly into this fallacy which challenges some of his other purer thoughts.

In my view, truth seekers who have moved such a long way down the path as you two while resisting to de-baggage will never ever be convinced and will until the day you leave your body, carry that baggage with you. It will be and that is your journey.

Regardless.

Bless both of you for seeking.

[Chuck]

lol ... Icecold ...

with respect, how do you know how giovonni and Chris define their terminology? for example what giovonni describes as "Christ Consciousness" could be very different than how you interpret that term. Certainly, we all have our own ego filters thru which we percieve our world, but my take on how giovonni and Chris use their words has nothing to do with organized religion, limitations nor dogma. A term or word must be used to convey a thought ... a limitation of language, especially on a forum when conservation of space is appreciated.

I continue to hope that anything conveyed and typed by fellow avalonians gets accepted and perceived by the highest of good intentions by the reader. That goes for me. I assume you truly wish to help both of them... and maybe you have. In which case, ignore everything I just typed! heheh :p

[giovonni]

Thanks to you All

Chris, Dan, icecold, and Chuck

Yes ~ i guess it was my turn~ to get it ~ that is! :(

yes i still struggle with an ego at times, but not too often anymore. :o

and yes, i still have some baggage (though it's light) to deal with yet :rolleyes:

as far as the Christ Consciousness term ~ from me personally to Amer (one former catholic to another), it is the best image in describing true perfection on this plane.

But the best part of all this ribbing you've heaped upon me is, i truly do feel and appreciate the love and good intent from each of you my Friends :p

[giovonni]

This from ~ Stephen A. Schwartz

"This awful story just will not stop. Three different reports in three different dioceses were filed today; I chose this one. I think it is notable that the Catholic laity has not organized itself to demand that the clergy be rededicated and cleansed, and structural changes made. Two billion dollars of believers' money has been spent so far to compensate for the systemic flaws of this system. Yet it takes place below most of the media's sight line. Business as usual. Even if you are not a Catholic this story should be seen as important. The Roman Catholic Church is the oldest virtual state woven deeply into the fabric of almost every Western nation, all of Africa, and parts of Asia. Catholics are the largest denominational community in the U.S. This slow motion implosion will affect billions of people."

***********

Philadelphia Grand Jury Recommends Criminal Charges Which Include Archdiocesan Official

By Randy Sly
2/19/2011

The Jury is In and the Cardinal Responds

http://images.catholic.org/ins_news/2011022239cardinal_rigali.jpg
Justin Cardinal Rigali

A Grand Jury in Philadelphia has issued a report and presentment concerning child abuse in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The presentment recommends charges against three clergy and a lay teacher. They also recommended charges against the Secretary of the Clergy of the Archdiocese for endangerment.

WASHINGTON, DC (Catholic Online) - On February 10, 2011 a Philadelphia Grand Jury landed a serious blow to the Philadelphia Archdiocese with regard to child abuse charges against three priests and a lay teacher. In addition to recommending criminal charges in all three cases, the Grand Jury also recommended criminal charges against the Secretary for Clergy for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia under Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua.

The recommended charges against the three priests, Edward Avery, Charles Engelhardt, and James Brennan and the teacher, Bernard Shero include rape and indecent sexual assault. In addition, they are recommending charges against Monsignor William J. Lynn, the Secretary for Clergy, which includes two counts of endangering the welfare of a child.

The report and presentment of the Grand Jury is the second of a one-two punch for the Archdiocese. The first came six years ago where a Grand Jury issued a 127 page report that began, "This report contains the findings of the Grand Jury: how dozens of priests sexually abused hundreds of children; how Philadelphia Archdiocese officials - including Cardinal Bevilacqua and Cardinal Krol - excused and enabled the abuse; and how the law must be changed so that it doesn't happen again. Some may be tempted to describe these events as tragic. Tragedies such as tidal waves, however, are outside human control. What we found were not acts of God, but of men who acted in His name and defiled it."

In his response the recent report, Cardinal Justin Rigali stated, "Sexual abuse of children is a crime. It is always wrong and gravely evil. Protecting children, preventing child abuse and assisting victims are priorities of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The Grand Jury Report makes clear that for as much as the Archdiocese has done to address child sexual abuse, there is still much to do."

The Cardinal moved beyond mere words through the following actions, as reported on the Archdiocesan website:

- "He has directed the immediate re-examination of all cases of concern to the Grand Jury, which asserts that as many as "37" priests remain in active ministry with credible allegations of child sexual abuse. This re-examination will be undertaken to determine the suitability of these priests for active ministry.

- "To lead that re-examination, the Archdiocese has retained the services of Gina Maisto Smith, J.D., a partner at the law firm of Ballard Spahr. Mrs. Smith is a former Philadelphia Assistant District Attorney who for nearly two decades has prosecuted child sexual assault cases. Mrs. Smith will re-examine all cases of accused priests in active ministry, as well as review the procedures employed by the Archdiocese, and make recommendations to the Cardinal. Mrs. Smith will also assist the Archdiocese in its communications in the course of dealing with the District Attorney's Office and in responding to the Grand Jury Report.

- "The Archdiocese has placed Father Joseph L. DiGregorio, Father Joseph J. Gallagher and Father Stephen B. Perzan on administrative leave. At the direction of Cardinal Rigali, all three will refrain from the public exercise of ministry pending the outcome of a second review of their cases.

"The Archdiocese takes seriously the observations and recommendations of the Grand Jury Report, and remains committed to working with the Philadelphia District Attorney.

"Change begins with action. The actions we announce today build on the changes that the Church has already announced, including retaining Mary Achilles as a victim services consultant, hiring Joseph Cronin Jr., J.D., Ph.D., to ensure priests' compliance with the Standards of Ministerial Behavior and Boundaries [http://bit.ly/AOPministerialstandards], and creating the position of Delegate for Investigations."

On his blog, Whispers in the Loggia, Rocco Palma observed, "If even a fraction of the allegations to be reinspected are either admitted by the accused or newly judged to be "established" -- the archdiocese's consistent standard, in line with the Stateside church's particular law in force since 2002 -- the resulting mass suspension would mark, by far, the largest single banishment of priests on abuse allegations in the long trail of the most seismic scandal ever to shake the American church."

A friend of mine years ago commented that church scandals also encompass the "victimization of the faithful."

Faithful Catholics everywhere are also victimized - Catholics in Philadelphia are particularly feeling it right now. Though not to the extent as the primary victims - all Catholics have been impacted by the sinful and repugnant actions of a few men who had taken vows before God. They have also scandalized the priesthood.

Again, these faithful are looking for a proper response.

In a recent article on "zero-tolerance" concerning child abuse, John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter referred to Archbishop Dolan of New York, the President of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, who firmly believes that church officials need to have a genuine "sense of contrition."

"What we have to do, and the bishops have to lead it, is one big fat mea culpa," Dolan said. "We can't get tired of that, and we have to mean it."

In addition to contrition, Cardinal Rigali added a second and most important component - action. He pointed to the serious breach of confidence by the faithful that must be addressed in his response to the Grand Jury findings.

"Many people of faith and in the community at large think that the Archdiocese does not understand the gravity of child sexual abuse. We do. The task before us now is to recognize where we have fallen short and to let our actions speak to our resolve."

***********

Randy Sly is the Associate Editor of Catholic Online and the CEO/Associate Publisher for the Northern Virginia Local Edition of Catholic Online (http://virginia.catholic.org). He is a former Archbishop of the Charismatic Episcopal Church who laid aside that ministry to enter into the full communion of the Catholic Church.


Source;
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=40406

[Amer]

It just doesn't stop does it? On and on and on. And the pope sits in his counting house. Working on another encyclical no doubt.

Thank you Giovonni for sharing with me. I believe I understood what you were trying to tell me in using that term :-)
Icecold thank you for that phrase know the tree by its fruit. Succinct & weighty.

As to baggage – show me a former catholic who doesn't have any! A lot of people walk around with baggage that settles on their shoulders for a life-time, others confront it, try to learn from it and let it go. At the end of the day it is us ourselves that have to account for the choices we made, the paths that we chose- nothing healthier than self-questioning. The process is long though.

As to ego, well in its true sense it should mean having a recognition of a healthy proportion of self-esteem- in bygone days in the catholic church they were pretty good at beating that pretty much out of you!! So you know I'm all for the recovery of being proud in yourself; you can't love others properly if you don't love yourself properly. I use that word intentionally.
Take care all.