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Bill Ryan
27th September 2013, 13:00
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Hi, All: this important topic has been opened up, with quite strong feelings, elsewhere on the forum. It clearly deserved its own thread.

I've copied five other posts over to get the thread rolling -- three of them very slightly edited so the focus of the post is fully on the topic of this new thread. (Please feel free to re-edit the posts to add to the focus.)

To kick the discussion off (and to offer the important context that women are far from the only subject of male abuse) here's the transcript of my interview with Lucia René in 2011. It was a good interview.

http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/lucia_rené_unplugging_the_patriarchy_3-10-11_en.html (http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/lucia_ren%C3%A9_unplugging_the_patriarchy_3-10-11_en.html)

Here's the interview itself, which was called Unplugging the Patriarchy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs

And here are some extracts:




BR: It’s very clear to me that a lot of men nowadays, they don’t know how to be. They’ve lost the rule book. They’re confused. They don’t know what’s expected of them. They don’t know how to be whatever it is to be truly masculine, because they’re confused by Hollywood movies and archetypes and comic strips and a whole bunch of stuff that’s been coming at them, ever since they were kids. And they know that that’s not right. But they don’t know what is right.

And, in my experience, there are a lot of men who go around with as much of an act as they can get together, to keep it together from day to day. And if you strip all that away, they’re deeply confused.

And, at a risk, I would be saying, that those deeply confused men are really hoping that they will encounter some woman who will be able to help them with this. And... But here, we’re... This is such a complicated and convoluted and sometimes highly-charged area, that, I think, that many of those men don’t find the high quality of woman who can understand all of this, in the way that you can.

BR: It’s this violence and oppression and compulsive control that we’ve been talking about, that are characteristics of what you call the patriarchy. Women are not the only victims. Look at the slave trade. Look at the holocaust. Look at... all kinds of... genocide. Look at colonialism. Look at the way that the British went into Africa and shot every lion they could find, just because they could. Just because they could.

But that aggression, that desire for control, or that kind of bullying, on this enormous scale wasn’t discriminating in its targets, was it? I mean, it wasn’t just women. It’s just men trashing the entire planet and every culture they could lay their hands on. Look at the Conquistadors. Look at the Incas. Look at what happened to the native Americans. I mean... men have got a lot to answer for. And not all of it is about women.

BR: But, I think a lot of men... I mean, it would be an overstatement to say they’re frightened of women. But that kind of man that I was trying to describe earlier, who’s actually confused, who doesn’t know exactly who he is, how he’s meant to be in society, how he’s meant to be a father or as a husband or as a partner or as a citizen. He doesn’t really know what’s expected of him any more. Is he meant to be macho? Is he meant to buy roses every day? What’s he meant to do? Is he meant to be the breadwinner? Is he meant to be tough? Is he meant...? Men don’t have a manual for this.

And then, sometimes, in certain circumstances, certainly, that man is actually really quite frightened of a woman who seems to be more balanced than he is and who might be able to offer him advice or to support him or to correct him or to point things out that he doesn’t know. These are all very hard for the male ego to take.

Christine
27th September 2013, 13:29
To myself and all women....

No one is making a statement defending the great injustices that women have suffered and continue to suffer. But do not little boys suffer them too? Are not men victims of their training? Can we lift the identity of sexual orientation and see beyond?

We are standing at the edge of the biggest rift on the planet. The male/ female division. Will we allow this to further split us or use this opportunity to reach for COMPASSION for all beings?

We are Spirit and have most likely experienced and participated in being male/ dominate/ abusers ourselves. As we peel away the barriers that have been used to block our access to Essential PURE Self we need to confront this reality. Ironically my meditation this morning took me into the billions of years of incarnations we have experienced. We are all culpable if that is the word… We are not male or female, only having chosen certain roles in different lifetimes.

Jim, Bill, John thank you for I see the beauty of your Spirits and know you would do no harm. This comes from the awe of living in the NOW moment.

With love and ONE heart COMPASSION,
Christine

superconsciousness
27th September 2013, 23:16
I have a very dear friend who works in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia with victims of human trafficking. Most of them are young girls. They are sold by their families. The value of women is low, next to cattle. A chain of poverty keeps that supply side going. What is one child when there are many to feed? The beast of trafficking is surged by foreign buyers who come to this area for product, fresh meat, fresh sex. It is the material world in a low cruel form. The girls and boys are kept drugged and scared and with little self esteem. My friend A is a retriever. He goes in pretending to be a customer and then convinces the oldest girl to round up the others and get out. There are more slaves on the planet now than ever.

I'm sure there are young women who like older foreign men and it all works out great.

But the reality of what is happening on our planet regarding Men and Women and the base disregard for the Divine Feminine is hard to take day and night. I'm not even going to get into the media issue. If you can't see it, I don't have the energy to deal right now. Suffice to say I remember my mother saying when a woman reaches a certain age she becomes invisible.

Blame? Men and Women both. Parents. Have to end the cycle. Respect and nurture your daughters to not NEED but Desire that which brings forth love, creativity, joy, pleasure....beyond the material, within the heart, within our selves. Same with our sons. love and pleasure must be born inside and then shared. But right now we are dealing with People as Contraband. Possessions. Ownership. Slavery. Women mutating themselves in a Stockholm Syndrome of perceived physicality conformity. Must look like a barbie doll or I am not desirable. Must be sexy or what value do I have? The propaganda is outrageous and it starts with childrens toys. Disney Nazi Reptilians.

Life is short but it feels long. The suffering of the many reaches crescendo. Masses are manipulated by SEX and VIOLENCE, root chakra chains to keep them from evolving. This is the key.

ulli
28th September 2013, 00:30
When I first arrived in Costa Rica, which is just as notorious as Thailand for attracting elderly single men looking for younger women, my next door neighbor was one such man...a retired American who was once in charge of the platform from which the first US satellite, Telstar, was sent into space.

And he had married a Costa Rican woman who was 35 years younger than him, she was my landlady's daughter, and they had a baby daughter aged three. He had taken care of a whole clan, and it worked out well for all the people involved...a win-win all around.

While there certainly are cases where the women are victimized, more often than not it is the north American men, who get taken for a ride....I have seen it happen several times. Whole families gang up behind their young daughters to figure out how to strip the foreigner of his life's savings.

He taught me how to use my first computer (since he was my next door neighbor, and I knew few English speakers back then, being new to Costa Rica.) He was already in his late seventies when his daughter was born. He died before she was ten, but everyone was well taken care of. The daughter now has her own law firm, and is very bright young lady.

One American friend who was from LA and had come to teach film making at a university in Costa Rica had fallen in love only to be dumped a short while later, and he couldn't understand why. He told me the relationship had gone so well, and he had met her family and everyone was getting along great...

And when I had to explain to him that it was because he didn't own a car, he clicked, as he remembered how that issue had come up a few times in conversation.

Even though she apparently loved him, the rest of the family probably told her that she was crazy to hang out with a gringo who couldn't afford a car. Meanwhile he was the sweetest, kindest person, and he really wanted to do something for a third-world country.

So I know that all stories are different, and to generalize in these matters, based on zero evidence, is just not right.

Strat
28th September 2013, 04:38
We have some very powerful and intelligent women here. Is there a club or something here promoting women's rights? I would have no problem with it being exclusively for the gals.

I say this because it's a damn shame how bad it is in Afghanistan. They simply are not treated as humans over there, they are a currency to be traded. It's disgusting. I have a friend who served in Kabul and he said you'd never see women/girls there. When they would drive by a house (with high walls) the girls would sprint inside as fast as they could because if a man saw them looking at the troops they'd beat her mercilessly. We're talking full grown men beating girls of any age.

There's a documentary somewhere out there about prostitutes who live in a brothel and it's quite simply an exemplification of hell.

I don't think a man like myself can sympathize as much as a woman can, so the women around here would have a bigger fire in their bellies than I. Why not take all this energy and turn it into something good? I'm not saying form a charity or whatever, but really get crackin' and find some answers.

CD7
28th September 2013, 14:20
I personally don't feel its anyone's [male-NAME HERE] fault. It was the bringing up of an extremely soar subject that is obviously alive in kicking in a lot of female Hearts---I know it did in mine. It doesn't take any particular person to bring it up. Its always there (male perspective of females) and unfortunately it has become more of a source of contention for me as I get older.

It doesn't always have to be a personal issue for a female---all one has to do is SIT BACK AND OBSERVE. Ive observed and experienced enough to the point if someone were to tell me ill never have another "romantic committed" relationship for the rest of my life, ill be more then AYE OKAY with it!

Love another male as a friend, coworker..etc etc is great with me!...you are another human being. Just do not expect me to play a twisted role with you, a role that's been set up since god knows when. Things are different in different parts of the globe, ofcourse it is not as blatant in your face suppression here in US as other areas. But just because its more COVERT and presented in a way where it appears less oppressive..certainly does not make it nonexistent

All I could say, that if a male became a female right now IS THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD REALLY GET IT...
And ill say im sure this goes for women as well!! Overall in my view, its a gender conditioning over a life that effects BOTH SIDES

Neither side should be DEPENDANT on the other...and I think female dependency goes STEPS further in its conditioning. As a young girl, I was expected to see the goal of ...you will get married and the man will help take care of you. This programming, I have recently had to work very hard to crush!!
So when you have an already debilitated set up of how relationships should go---which falters in MOST cases, the female is set back tht much further from not being able to support herself, or more importantly being prepared for such an event from the getgo like males are

Flash
28th September 2013, 16:43
Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

Bill Ryan
28th September 2013, 16:51
Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

Sorry!! My sincere apologies. There's absolutely no way for the mods to know if someone is drafting a post while a thread is being closed. Please continue here. The topic itself (of this new thread) is very important indeed.

Tesla_WTC_Solution
28th September 2013, 16:59
In the military, I was once asked why I pretend not to know what my job is -- no ****.
At the time, I felt insufficiently trained, and that was my excuse.
But then I realized, if I really wanted to do a "good" job, I would have expressed more drive to succeed.
I would not have just backpedaled and tread water, if I really cared about other people --

So, it's kind of hard for me to see males in general as "insufficiently trained" rather than "insufficiently concerned".
I agree in a way that yes, they could use better role models, but -- what of the thousands of generations of abused women who successfully raised kids?
I mean, where do they get their examples? Some women weren't even allowed outside the house once married.
So, saying that an external example, or the lack thereof, is the reason men fail -- it kind of blows things out of proportion.

People don't need a huge crowd in order to tell right from wrong.
But maybe in a Hollywood culture, they need a huge crowd in order to feel "good about themselves".
Classic Narcissism. And I know this because I, too, have fallen into the trap of self-love at times.

The "need" for examples, at some point beyond babyhood, is really a need for an average, and the hope that one places above average.
I don't think it has anything to do with love or caring.

Lots of people tend to be stuck on the math of life and the irony there is, they aren't particularly good at math either.

Bill Ryan
28th September 2013, 17:08
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In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

Tesla_WTC_Solution
28th September 2013, 17:16
Women can be plenty mean, too. But it's sad when little kids get caught up in gender wars.
It can hurt a little boy just as badly as any woman.

:(

TargeT
28th September 2013, 17:41
-------

In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.


Isnt that just a bit too polarized?

Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

giovonni
28th September 2013, 17:52
TO All ...
i can appreciate what you are attempting to express here... But please do not allow this to be become another 'hate male' thread...

We Are All Humans First !

sheme
28th September 2013, 18:05
I believe we incarnate as male or female each individual may be either- what ever suits the greater good .

I am sure I have experienced both, male and female incarnations plus combinations of left brain and right brain, it is all part of our evolution - in the beginning there was man-then woman and right brain arrived to balance left brain.

Logic and physical strength rule right now masculinecentric - this explains some of the reason we are in the mess we are in-we are without balance.

It's OK though as the female right brain will temper masculine steel -and the male and female will work in harmony together, today we are mainly black and white- one day we will be gray.

Gray is the vibration the soul likes best it seeks it out in all things, the hologramme tells us this- the colour wheel shows the way complementory colours please the eyes -the window to the soul, complementry colours when mixed together make gray.

You are right Bill now is the beginning time for the scales of balance -male female, logic intuition, black white, we all should be a perfect balance of both contrasts, this is why we are compelled to add to this thread.

I think in higher dimensions beings are both masculine and feminine together at the same time!

Snookie
28th September 2013, 18:10
"If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different."

I'm not so sure about this. There are plenty of women who are like Hilary Clinton who would rise to positions of power. Do you really think the world would be any better off with women such as her being in charge? I have seen my share of girls fights over the years, and we can be every bit as vicious as any male. We can be even more vicious and cutting with our words.

Women do hold 50% of the responsibility of how both their daughters and sons are raised. If mothers are fearful of their husbands that sends a powerful message to their children of BOTH sexes, and the cycle is repeated again.

778 neighbour of some guy
28th September 2013, 18:15
I agree with Target, its not just all us and its a polarized view, there is truth in it but its a itsy bitsy teeny weeny bit skewed, I will return to this thread later on, first I'm going to drink three bottles of Chianti and eat funky cheese with my best German friend, a young lady who's ten years younger, has tattoos of skulls and roses on her arms, wings on her back, and has so many iron rings in her body that she attracts refrigerator magnets, she eats dudes for breakfast, drives Caterpillars and reachtrucks, is the best cook you have ever met, best lover I have ever met, and she is sexy as hell, men, she loves them and hates them and together we are going to discuss in no uncertain terms what we think of each other (men/women), get in heated debates, laugh our asses off in the meantime and will be extremely vulgar to blow of some steam, this will be watched by the dog ( bitch)who thinks this is absolutely hilarious, we are equals, completely, she can bitch about men, I get to bitch about women and in the end we always meet in the middle, as it should be, and I consider that to be very enlightened, I don't feel any guilt about what men have done in the past, I see the results but don't participate in recreating them, I see a heated debate coming, but also remember to keep this somewhat light footed and don't forget to smile, its not about his or her fault anymore, YOU are solely responsible for how you treat anybody, what sex someone is should not matter in the least.

She is the only one I can truly relate to, the only one who sees my tears, the only one who tells me to grow a pair, I...........for that am the only one who gets to see her tears.....but only if I tell her lose a pair, acting tough as nails out of necessity can be a real bitch........ at least we know each other well enough to recognize each other as total equals, to me that counts for everything, grow a pair or lose a pair, sometimes its what we all got to do.

I'm off but will return, perhaps unfortunately.

Have a good and productive evening, y'all.

See you on the flipside or flip you on the seeside.

eric1
28th September 2013, 18:26
On the whole men have caused a great deal of distress on the planet, no question about it. I do believe we could benefit if society were generally matriarchal, although as other posters have pointed out, there are some "doozy" women out there as well. One plus that men do generally have over women is that we are more driven by logic whereas many women are more influenced by emotion/feelings. The latter can be dangerous, especially in a world where everything is not warm and fuzzy.



-------

In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

Freed Fox
28th September 2013, 18:28
They don’t know how to be whatever it is to be truly masculine, because they’re confused by Hollywood movies and archetypes and comic strips and a whole bunch of stuff that’s been coming at them, ever since they were kids. And they know that that’s not right. But they don’t know what is right.

This is an important point, but I think that in many cases, "they" don't actually know that it's not right. I put that word in quotations because, although I am male, I do not abuse women, objectify them, or buy into the perverted modern standards of masculinity. Perhaps "they" would know, if they were inclined to listen to their intuition, or their conscience. They might have some sense of that wrongness deep down, but it is a sense that they are fighting, denying, or running away from.

The idea of what constitutes masculinity, and what is required of men to be -REAL- men has become vastly twisted. True men do not seek to conquer and destroy. True men do not require absolute obedience and submission. These are not signs of strength, though they are all too often mistaken to be.

I read a few of the posts that generated this thread, and to those women here and elsewhere who have had the misfortune of only engaging with the abusive, egotistic, 'macho' men; I am deeply sorry. Sorry that this is such a prevalent issue in modern society, sorry for the pain they have caused you, and sorry that they have tarnished the reputations of other men and caused you to lose hope in meeting a decent gentlemen who would honor you, respect you, and treat you as an equal and fellow individual (as you deserve to be treated).

Roisin
28th September 2013, 18:40
One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that older women are basically 'invisible' to males not only in many situations in the 3D world but especially on UFO/paranormal internet forums. There was a time when I would never show a pic of myself and reveal my age in forums for that reason but after seeing too many older females ignored even though what they had to say about something was so much more coherent than what the vast majority of younger members who would be commenting on the same topic, I changed my mind and revealed my age and showed my pic just to show my support and respect for those women on those forums who were already doing that. But the truth is, some of those forums out there do not like older women revealing themselves on their forums. There's a lot of prejudice and even passive-aggressive discrimination there.

jagman
28th September 2013, 18:40
I think this is a doubled edged sword. My father was a violent man.When I was little I watched him
beat my mother several times. I told myself I would never be like him! I told myself that when i
grew up and became a father and husband I would be a good man. I met my wife in the spring of 98.
She appeared to be a very normal person and I was young and in love so we married in 2000.
I probably missed the warning signs, being in love does that to a person. She was insanely jealous.
I remember the first time she hit me. I was sitting on the couch with her watching a televison show
I think it was Melrose place. During the program there was a hottub scene and I jokingly said to my
wife she is a little busty. The next thing I know my wife smacks me in the mouth.
Over the next few years the violence increased and got worse. Anytime I disagreed with her or she
got angry she would hit me or throw something at me. One time she was mad at me during a family
BBQ so she picked up a bbq fork and threw it at me, and stuck it in my back.

Why did I stay? She would always apologize to me and I had 2 kids with her at this point.
I could not speak to other women when I was married to her or I was sleeping with them
according to her. In one of her fits she bloodied my nose & mouth and I told her, "what are
you going to do when you make me mad enough to hit you back" and she smiled and said
you dont have the balls. It finally culminated in the summer 2004. She came home drunk
and angry.I was sitting on the couch with my 2 year old son josh on my lap. She picked up
a vase that was setting on an in table. She stood over the top of me with the vase drawn
back to hit me. At first I held my hand up to protect myself and my son but eventually
lowered my hand because I didnt think she would endanger our son. The next thing I know
SMASH on the side of my head. It almost Knocked me unconcious. I got up, My head was
bleeding. I put my son on the other couch away from the broken glass. I reached out and
grabbed her by the neck.I had my fist pulled back to let her have it. I looked over and my
son was crying so I let her go and called the police. When they arrived they were going to
take her to jail but my kids were hysterical at this point so I told the officers I would leave
my home if they would not take her to jail. The officers reluctantly agreed.

Oh yes women can be just has abusive has a men.

Corncrake
28th September 2013, 18:46
I think this is relevant here as it does demonstrate at least one area where we have gone wrong as a society. I was listening to an interview on the radio with the ex-editor of Loaded about a documentary called Sex on the Brain showing in the UK on Channel 4 on Monday night. It was about the terrible influence access to pornography (some of which is very sadistic) on the internet is having on young boys and some girls. How young girls are being equated to porn stars and ... well you can imagine the rest or read the attachment (which is more about him than the documentary). I had a frank discussion with my own offspring about this - luckily we have always been able to talk about what for some are taboo subjects - and was shocked to learn some of the stuff that is out there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156593/The-lads-mag-I-edited-turned-generation-porn--Im-father-I-bitterly-regret-A-remarkable-confession-longest-serving-editor-Loaded.html

Bill Ryan
28th September 2013, 18:48
Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --


they don't start wars;
they don't sadistically torture;
they don't sexually abuse children;
they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.

Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.






"If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different."I'm not so sure about this. There are plenty of women who are like Hilary Clinton who would rise to positions of power.

I think the situation here (and also with Margaret Thatcher, another famous example) is that a small handful of women enter what is really a man's game and then try to "win" by copying male strategies.





We Are All Humans First !

Amen to that. I'm a spiritual being riding around right now in a male body. ALL of us are spiritual beings occupying whatever body we've chosen (or, in some cases, settled for).

Much of the deeply ingrained gender differences are hardwired into the body -- and are not always able to be controlled by the spiritual being who is supposedly in charge.

We always have to remember that all bodies have their own intelligence, their own agenda, their own hang-ups, and their own history. And some of that, we, riding along in them, may not even know about.

Curt
28th September 2013, 18:49
The purposeful pitting of men against women and women against men is maybe the best tool the controllers have to divide and conquer us.

It's self-evident that cooperation and mutual respect between the sexes would, in one massive stroke, break down global tyranny almost overnight.

The combined power of male and female, masculine and feminine (in whatever form) could literally renovate the soul of the world.

Here's an interview with Catherine Austin Fitts.

The whole interview is great, but the last 10-15 minutes or so she expresses very eloquently just how and why cooperation between the sexes will be a big part of the potential and future success of humankind.

Don't be ashamed of your gender. Don't be cow-towed by the war between the sexes.

Think bigger.

2C5nJsPR4dI

sheme
28th September 2013, 18:52
http://youtu.be/Vnbi2tiTHAk

This is a great 15 minute video.

superconsciousness
28th September 2013, 19:23
One plus that men do generally have over women is that we are more driven by logic whereas many women are more influenced by emotion/feelings. The latter can be dangerous, especially in a world where everything is not warm and fuzzy."

Actually....So far in my observations of men and women, the notion that MEN ARE MORE LOGICAL and WOMEN EMOTIONAL - is not the case. If LOGIC were properly used, then we wouldn't be destroying our only ecosystem. If LOGIC were used, why would we rush to BOMB and KILL people?

What I see currently is that the classic MALE/FEMALE paradigms are dissolving - for many reasons - including the number of hormones in food and water - but also because we are evolving within and out of IDENTITY POLITICS and a revolution of material identity, hopefully beyond it, to conscious awareness that we are the LIFE inside the BODY, not the Body alone.

My brother recently sued a large pharma company for changing epileptic medicine and not telling the patients. A bunch of them died. He interviewed many of the pharma workers and was amazed that both men and women were aware of the potential dangers and did nothing because they were getting paid to be quiet.

Female genital mutilation? It's the WOMEN who do it to their daughters.
All of us are to blame. (I love you, please forgive me.)

The matriarchy was not balanced. The patriarchy neither. The goal is a HETERARCHY. This is embodied in the Star of David and the Merkaba - the balancing of male and female.

I recommend taking another read of ANTIGONE which very clearly acts out the tragic roles Men and Women play when they continue negative pathworking.

A great mind and man, Russ Ackoff, made a brilliant point: It is better to do the RIGHT thing WRONG, then the WRONG thing RIGHT. Keep at it, mistakes will be made, forgive them, for the path to doing the Right thing Right will come when the intention and will is there.

AutumnW
28th September 2013, 19:24
-------

In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.


Isnt that just a bit too polarized?

Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

In the past, this type of woman controlled by stealth. Now they hide behind feminist ideology to impose their will. Agreed.

Having said that I don't disagree with most of the comments on this thread. They are all completely legitimate and many are based on personal experience.

I have been exposed to a few feminine vipers and a psychopathic man. Thank God, only one! I think it's important to draw a distinction between psychologically healthy individuals and those who are deeply damaged.

It is really tough to be a man right now. The polarity between the sexes isn't there anymore. Women are becoming more masculine in terms of self sufficiency, the way they relate to others, and many other little ways. Men are expected to be masculine, strong, confident, and sexy. But...these traits actually run counter to sensitivity, caring, nurturing, passive.

What's a guy to do? It has to be very confusing. And little boys being brought up to think that the state of the world is due to their gender, specifically, are given a very negative message.

I don't know if the world would be a better place if it was run by women. You would see the most aggressive women out-competing their more passive sisters. It would look very much the same.

spiritwind
28th September 2013, 19:41
My feeling is this issue goes way beyond just gender but way into metaphysically murky realms. I have studied kabbalistic concepts for a long time now and part of these teachings have to do with the tree of life with one side being masculine/positive and the other side being the feminine/negative and center being the way to integrate and balance the two. This was not a static process but a continuing dynamic balancing act as life is constantly on the move.

In my view both sides are currently manifesting in this world in a very imbalanced manner and, as each of us has both masculine and feminine characteristics that sometimes don’t even match our physical gender, this issue affects everyone regardless of gender. Nature is associated with the feminine. Space is associated with a more masculine energy in general. I believe we originally were not imbalanced and something actually came from outside this once beautiful garden and infected us with its “gender bias”. It does not understand biological life and, in fact, seems to behave and induce others to behave in a very non, or anti-life manner. It continuously inflames us to behave in a way that suggests we have become almost completely cut off from our more intuitive side that tends to act in ways that preserve life and community. Masculine energy when balanced also actually tends to act in a way that preserves life so it is clearly not balanced. But it’s not too late, in fact, I believe our time of awakening is at hand. We know more about this insidious enemy than we ever have and knowledge is our friend. There are many threads here on Avalon to attest to that.

I read a book called The Chalice and the Blade many years ago. I can’t find it right now as I still have a lot of my books in storage but the author talks about how there is a lot of evidence to suggest a time when many inhabitants of earth did not feel the need to fortify their places of habitation. Then the “Kurgans” came down off the steppes in successive waves, over and over again (there is some controversy over this hypothesis but it may have been something like this). They raped, pillaged, and plundered without reservation (and so infected us with their genes and ways of life). I have always wondered what would have caused them to do that. I actually have many theories as do many others, but obviously not much to go on. I believe the answer to why things are the way they are today harken back to that time period. The good news is, the more we recognize those behaviors in ourselves and in society, the more we can work to bring about change. I think many are sick of conflict and are beginning to see how much of it is falsely manufactured. Many are truly ready for peace and realize it starts on the inside first. But this force that is against life is also hard at work continuing to inflame and bring out the seeming devil in some.

Sometimes the answer in the real world can be simple. I can’t stand to hear men or women tearing each other down. I will walk away before I contribute and my husband will as well. I remember him telling me how he couldn’t even stand to be in the same room with “the guys” at work in the morning because they would all stand around and bash the women in their lives. They also knew he was disgusted with their behavior and learned not to talk that way when he was around. Even if we don’t know where this energy originated we can counter it by awareness and not feeding the beast.

gripreaper
28th September 2013, 19:48
Well, the title of the thread is too limiting. Do we really need to discuss how men abuse women? Males abuse women, women abuse men, men and women abuse each other, we are stuck in a polarized patriarch which fosters abuse, polarizes genders, objectifies women, encourages energy vampirism, divisiveness, and foments extreme aberration...

When, both men and women have both feminine and masculine energy, both hemispheres of the brain, an endrogenous soul, and a mind to think and a body to feel regardless of gender...

Until we have a context for viewing the energies which manifest such aberrations, the discussion will invariably remain in gender 3D.

RunningDeer
28th September 2013, 19:55
I’m one of those woman that married someone twenty years older. We lived together and I reached a point where it was time for me to move on and he asked me to marry him. I brought youth and he brought security when he passed on. We never combined finances and always split the bills right down the middle. (I’ll do things differently next time.) I cheered him on while he gathered up hard earned accolades and titles up the wazoo.

We hit a very very, long dry patch in our relationship. I thought it was ‘male menopause’. Naive wife wore a compassion hat that went on well passed anything I'd be open to today. We shared a refrigerator and that was all. Then he asked me for a divorce because there was another. Her face flashed in my mind’s eye, and it was the one that had taken me out for lunch several years earlier. She’s thirty-four years younger than him.

I was relieved and hurt. I asked him to please be as honest and open as he’d ever been in his life. I’ve got smarts, street savvy, life experience, I’m fitful, and have a profession. What am I missing? How I can make it better in my next relationship? His answer was nothing. It wasn’t me. And I got that. And I understood our nineteen year karmic contract was completed.

We met up for lunch with his lawyer before we headed over to the court house. I didn’t hire one. It was his lawyer that couldn’t understand why the divorce. Something about the love we had for one another he didn’t see in his profession. My response was that we were better house mates than lovers. There was awkward nano-seconds of silence between the three of us and head shakes of acknowledgement. My ex-hubby fess up about the other woman.

Still today, he’s a dear, dear friend. The three of us meet up for dinner visits.

I believe men and women are extracting what anchors them from [fill in the blank here because I’m still figuring it out].

A month ago, a friend asked, “What about a man in my life?” My response was, “No. But I haven’t ruled it out. If it happens, I’m happy. If it doesn’t, I’m happy. And I’ll know. And so will he.”

Love for Love’s sake. Love of self and Self. It’s key in partnership. That’s the new energy I see just ahead.

william r sanford72
28th September 2013, 19:56
at one time i added to the misery of this world.in my desperate attempts to surpress the truth of the gift of the soul.spirit.i couldnt bear it.i couldnt handle the heavy.i became a junky.solved the first problem but led to a dark side of life alott only glimpse on the news or in a passing.seen first hand many times just how truly insane and selfish we can be.truly how ignorant we are.i have lived with killers.abusers.the worst of the worse.sold dope to some.and to the abused.selling drugs brought me into many dynamics of family life.women and men.husbands fathers.mothers and daughters.all walks of life.income to a junky....??..men were always the worse.way more violent..i never had to watch my back from a gun totting female junky dead set on my drugs or life.both.always men. it was my grmmother.my mother who refused to turn there backs on me.not my dad.there love was waiting for me everytime.even if i didnt deserve it.love saved me.love from a women.that love gave me the power to even want to begin forgiving myself.they didnt fix me..just showed me i was worth saving..i took it from there...im still a work in progress.thank the divine source for females.women.

Camilo
28th September 2013, 19:57
Our Most Important Mission Ever: Stop Violence Against Women Now

AutumnW
28th September 2013, 20:02
Gripreaper, I hope you agree that women objectify themselves --- that it is not always imposed on them. It is a way of garnering control and becoming powerful. Young women today grew up with feminist mothers (and fathers) who taught them all about using their minds and hearts to get ahead--and still they use their bodies in this way and to an alarming degree.

AutumnW
28th September 2013, 20:08
That is the coolest thing I have read in a while. It speaks volume for your maturity and wisdom. Thanks!


I’m one of those woman that married someone twenty years older. We lived together and I reached a point where it was time for me to move on and he asked me to marry him. I brought youth and he brought security when he passed on. We never combined finances and always split the bills right down the middle. (I’ll do things differently next time.) I cheered him on while he gathered up hard earned accolades and titles up the wazoo.

We hit a very very, long dry patch in our relationship. I thought it was ‘male menopause’. Naive wife wore a compassion hat that went on well passed anything I'd be open to today. We shared a refrigerator and that was all. Then he asked me for a divorce because there was another. Her face flashed in my mind’s eye, and it was the one that had taken me out for lunch several years earlier. She’s thirty-four years younger than he.

I was relieved and hurt. I asked him to please be as honest and open as he’d ever been in his life. I’ve got smarts, street savvy, life experience, I’m fitful, and have a profession. What am I missing? How I can make it better in my next relationship? His answer was nothing. It wasn’t me. And I got that. And I understood our nineteen year karmic contract was completed.

We met up for lunch with his lawyer before we headed over to the court house. I didn’t hire one. It was his lawyer that couldn’t understand why the divorce. Something about the love we had for one another he didn’t see in his profession. My response was that we were better house mates than lovers. There was awkward nano-seconds of silence between the three of us and head shakes of acknowledgement. My ex-hubby fess up about the other woman.

Still today, he’s a dear, dear friend. The three of us meet up for dinner visits.

I believe men and women are extracting what anchors them from [fill in the blank here because I’m still figuring it out].

A month ago, a friend asked, “What about a man in my life?” My response was, “No. But I haven’t ruled it out. If it happens, I’m happy. If it doesn’t, I’m happy. And I’ll know. And so will he.”

Love for Love’s sake. Love of self and Self. It’s key in partnership. That’s the new energy I see just ahead.

Carmen
28th September 2013, 20:19
My comments will possibly induce anger in some people but I think, but also in my experience, the change of attitude in both men and women has to come from the women. Women are the mothers of these baby boys, these toddlers, first and foremost. They are their first teachers. How a boy relates to his mother as he is growing is how he will also pick a marriage partner to a large extent. If that mother has a victim mentality and has attracted a tyrant of a husband then her relationship with her children will be governed by that to a large extent. But even in that case a mothers natural fierceness and protectiveness toward her children will cause her to develope some backbone if the father is abusive to his children. I speak from experience here as my husband was mentally and emotionally abusive toward his children and I stood between them.

It's impossible to generalize on this subject, all cases are different and unique. I would say it would be terribly difficult for an Afghan woman for instance to stand up to any male, and yet women in Afghanistan are doing just that. Even in those oppressive countries it is still the women, those heroic women, who have to stand up and be counted.

In every man there is their feminine aspect, and in every woman there is their male aspect. In the old way of being where the latent aspects were denied or suppressed a man and woman have to attract their opposite gender to be/feel complete. In the rising of consciousness, or the expanding of consciousness, the latent male of a female and the latent female is realized and brought forth. So then the man and the woman is complete in themselves and has no great yearning to form a whole ness by attracting the opposite gender. They have transcended the duality of this 3D realm. This does not mean that no relationships are formed, it just means that each relationship or friendship is of two whole people who are complete in themselves. This realizing of the completed inner self is where we are all heading.

In the meantime we have to deal with the worlds base sexually which is firmly held in the males first seal. It is quite sickening. Where via television little girls and boys are sexualised by programming and ads from a very young age. But, to me it's still the women standing up and saying NO to this. Women are not as stuck in their first sex seal as men are. They have been taught over the centuries to use their sexuality to survive. Men have made whores of women because they are whores! This is a sad state of affairs but it's not all men who are like this fortunately. A large part of mankind is just wonderful. I was saddened by Bill's comment about being male. Fathers today are fabulous men in the most part. They take a full part in raising their children and have realized their feminine qualities to a large extent. This doesn't mean they are feminine men. It just means their wonderful maleness is tempered by gentleness, compassion, kindness, playfulness. I could go on and on here but I celebrate the men in my life. My son and son-in-laws and great dads and great husbands. They actually couldn't be anything less having attracted and married strong, feisty, no-nonsense women! Even my old husband is getting a second chance interacting with his grandchildren and he's great with them and they love him to bits.

Flash
28th September 2013, 20:27
Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

Sorry!! My sincere apologies. There's absolutely no way for the mods to know if someone is drafting a post while a thread is being closed. Please continue here. The topic itself (of this new thread) is very important indeed.

No need to apologize, I understand very well. I will come back to the thread, but not now, I have to submit papers this week and have an exam on something I studied 30 years ago (can't remember) and I am way back.

So expect me past mid week, it will be a pleasure.

Sierra
28th September 2013, 20:50
Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumsized.

There you are, eight days old usually, without pain killer, utterly helpless, and someone cuts off a piece of your manhood. WTF? And you see mother and father smiling down at you, as you go through the worst pain you have ever felt in your short life.

And we wonder at all the altered personalities walking around exercising extreme and violent control over their environment, their relationships... From a very very young age. Talk about fostering a sense of betrayal, abandonment, and horror, cemented into the very root and foundation of personality and self.

We think female genital mutilation is horrible, but it goes both ways. We just don't see it that way yet.

There is a reason a split personality is created in the male from time immemorial. How else would we have war without male rage, that has no identified source? A split personality that can be manipulated to view any target you can imagine, as the source?

It takes RAGE to grow up to become someone that sets women on fire, throws acid in women's faces, kills an eight year old on her wedding night, stones females to death, laugh proudly and post pictures of gang rape on social sites, and create "justice" systems to maintain the insanity.

It is very insane what we see going on around us.

Sierra

Tesla_WTC_Solution
28th September 2013, 20:58
I have a question: if women are excluded from jobs and positions of power which would give them practice in using logic rather than emotion,
how can anyone aware of this system seriously say and expect to be believed in saying, women *are by nature* "more emotional" than men..?

I think anyone stuffed into a box and called inept by "bigger stronger better" members of the species would become emotionally distraught.

Yet another bar of the cage = putting all women into the category of being "too/more emotional".

If it was true that we are all less logical and more emotional, then you wouldn't see women like me posting to black hole physics threads and avoiding the "death in the family/women vs. men" sort of threads...

It's safe to say that "normal" men and women BOTH seek to avoid emotional conflict most of the time, but some of us are RELEGATED to the unpleasant role of wiping butts and tears.

Carmen
28th September 2013, 20:59
I know of very few people who have had their sons circumsized. In this country it seems to be a Catholic habit!

Sierra
28th September 2013, 21:02
I know of very few people who have had their sons circumsized. In this country it seems to be a Catholic habit!

And Jewish, and Muslim ... :)

enfoldedblue
28th September 2013, 21:15
It is interesting because last night Music and I had an interesting discussion about something relevant to this discussion. We were talking about the effect of testosterone on men's behaviour. I remember friends when I was teenager bashing each other up...for fun. I remember friends sometimes being almost overtaken with the need to be violent. As a woman I found it difficult to understand.

We were talking about how in our society there are very few positive channels for this energy that is activated by testosterone. With our son we feel that it will be important to provide healthy outlets so that he can learn to use this energy in a constructive rather than a destructive way.

In the past in tribal situations there were many rites of passage for men that assisted them to become honourable men who functioned as a part of a community. I believe the disappearance of these rites have greatly contributed to the social problems we face today, as young men grow up without a strong sense of belonging.

Tesla_WTC_Solution
28th September 2013, 21:22
It is interesting because last night Music and I had an interesting discussion about something relevant to this discussion. We were talking about the effect of testosterone on men's behaviour. I remember friends when I was teenager bashing each other up...for fun. I remember friends sometimes being almost overtaken with the need to be violent. As a woman I found it difficult to understand.

We were talking about how in our society there are very few positive channels for this energy that is activated by testosterone. With our son we feel that it will be important to provide healthy outlets so that he can learn to use this energy in a constructive rather than a destructive way.

In the past in tribal situations there were many rites of passage for men that assisted them to become honourable men who functioned as a part of a community. I believe the disappearance of these rites have greatly contributed to the social problems we face today, as young men grow up without a strong sense of belonging.


hey, you remember the show ROOTS, about the men and women from Africa who were taken to America as slaves?

There was a scene in the earlier part of the show, where the older African men had all the 16 year olds from the village lined up,
and it was the day they got circumcised -- circumcision was actually an aspect of becoming a man in some African cultures.
They looked forward to the day with both fear and elation. After becoming circumcised, the young men stopped sleeping in the childrens' huts and were permitted to sleep in the mens' huts.

These same cultures in Africa also venerated the female menses and had a great inherent respect for the processes of life in all its forms.
For some reason the West really has a problem with the Great Mother goddesses and the black madonnas/dianas etc. from Greece.
It's almost like they are afraid to admit that somewhere, in the darkness of the unconscious, women are every bit as powerful as men.
African culture was actually quite a bit more respectful of the Divine Female aspect before they ran into Western cultures.

Nanoo Nanoo
28th September 2013, 21:35
Bill Ryan : Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --
•they don't start wars;
•they don't sadistically torture;
•they don't sexually abuse children;
•they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
•they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.
Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.


Bill, is this honestly your opinion ?

Snookie
28th September 2013, 21:46
I think the majority of problems in this world would recede if both men and women came into their individual place of power and focused on pleasing and delighting themselves while ensuring they weren't encroaching on anyone else's ability to please and delight themselves.

Nickolai
28th September 2013, 21:54
Hi, Bill,

And yet another contoversial post of you.
I have no idea why you are doing that. What is the purpose?
As stated above we should be beyond this stuff. We are all equal. There are bad guys and very bad girls in the world. The latter are wicked not because some mythical men did wrong to them, they are wicked cos they are wicked, basta!
No one discusses the abuse women do to men, no one discusses that women can be even more wickedly cruel than men are. No one discusses the child abuse made by mothers or women. So what's the agenda here? Have no idea.
I like women but sometimes this bla bla bla makes me reaaly angry.You ask me why? I tell you cos I saw very bad women treating men in a bad situations same as men though. No difference!
I talk about good people or bad people. To hell with sexiual difference!

Shame!

Tesla_WTC_Solution
28th September 2013, 21:58
Bill, I have to tell you this because it is important!!
Some people are on your case about things that you believe and it's not your fault, BUT --
So people stop attacking, I'd like to ask if people think about:

~ consider this: since women are put on the back burner, many of them learn the value of HIDING WRONGDOING.
~You might be less LIKELY to SEE a woman being abusive not only because she has less inclination to express, but because she has been condition to hide these feelings and expressions.
~Yes it's true that statistically it happens less -- BUT it still happens sometimes. Take the example of the book SYBIL. (the Mom sexually abused a girl!)

~The tragedy about women who abuse is that many are acting out a play about Helplessness and Power.
~But the thing is, they are physically adult yet mentally helpless, and are taking it out on someone who is Physically helpless AND mentally helpless, i.e. a child.
~Men abuse women because they look helpless, and some women turn around and abuse kids, because, YES, they are also helpless.

~TRUE lasting GOOD Power is enabling others, whether like us or not, whether helpless compared to us or not, to feel good about themselves and part of something good.
I am very proud of men who are willing to come out of hiding and talk about these things without getting mad or "feeling too proud".

You seem like a very decent person!!!
Remember that movie "The Master", if you've heard of it?
A mentally helpless (war veteran) man is brought back from one of the world wars, and ends up in a cult -- after being assimilated and programmed, he starts defending his own abusers because the abusive system makes him feel less helpless, i.e. he has become a part of something that to him makes sense. But when things go unexpectedly, his reaction is violent and so is the reaction of everyone else in the cult... they have a good fundamental message, but they start using techniques learned from the people from whom they are trying to break away.


It's very hard to pioneer a new system and also implement that system.
How can we distance ourselves from emotions without ultimately falling prey to even stronger emotions?
It's like we all live on this huge pendulum and we can't get off.
All we can do is try to take a good look at things before we try jumping, LOL
or just ride it back to a better spot. lol better.

(edit: I wrote "luck" when I meant "look")

Flash
28th September 2013, 22:00
Nickolai, it seems that Russia has something to teach us. THe hell with sexual differences.

(shut, whispering: but deep down, Nickolai, would you say that there is all kinds of misconceptions and préjudices on both sides, but stronger against women?)

Nickolai
28th September 2013, 22:16
Nickolai, it seems that Russia has something to teach us. THe hell with sexual differences.

(shut, whispering: but deep down, Nickolai, would you say that there is all kinds of misconceptions and préjudices on both sides, but stronger against women?)

Dearest Flashie...)))


Honestly, I do not think so. Not here at least. Not in my reality. Here we are equal (And again: In my reality!).
And honestly I care not what they talk about.
Here I know women who have made their way up just working with their bodies. When up there, they do their best to belittle men...))
Not a rule, but, oh, so very often.
BUt then again, Russia is different. We have made a huge way from 80's to now. Russian women could be different from others. Who knows...))

Still, I think it is a silliest thing to discuss. Especially keeping in mind what is being discussed on the forum: the human evolution, evolving, being as one, love, peace.
Where does it come from. Really, I am perplexed..

Nanoo Nanoo
28th September 2013, 22:44
i think the shift thats occoured ie the womens movement for equality, is absolutely nessesary. its brought about a lot of open woulds and thats the back lash which is to be expected. it was always going to be a two and fro of opinion till the dust settles.

If i may point out what i understand of Patriarchy. In the period of about 4000 bc and before it was generally reported relationships were Egalitarian.. ie couples natural propensity was to be equal, thats important to take note of... It wasnt till about 3700 ( i believe ) when droughts hit the middle east and fighting started for food supplies that men ( who were fighting for the survival of their families ) had to take a leadership role in order to organise the home and defend the family. It was at that point the Man had to leave and hunt and the women stayed home to tend to the family. This was nothing to do with rights , it had to do with survival.

It has since, in some cultureds, manifested as an extension model of this system but its not like that everywhere.

Now im talking strictly about rights , not sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is a totally different subject and has to do with personal security, not rights.

What i see is a progression of this model turn into a mens club till say the turn of the century.

I think in strictest terms you can give anybody Power and regardless of gender they can be suceptible of abusing it or doing the right thing with it but it all depends on their up bringing and their personal views and morality.. i think all reasonable people would agree to that.

These sorts of threads are good for abused people getting it off their chest and thats healthy but please bear in mind the ones who ever abused you still have power over you while you still carry haterd in your heart... Remember im not talking sexual abuse , thats totally another thread .. im talking about abuse of rights and power.



N

Bill Ryan
28th September 2013, 23:09
Bill Ryan : Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --
•they don't start wars;
•they don't sadistically torture;
•they don't sexually abuse children;
•they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
•they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.
Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.Bill, is this honestly your opinion ?


Yes -- with the caveat (as I said) "as a rule". For non-English-speakers, that means "usually".

Also to Tesla: I know one can always find women who are cruel, mean, scheming, sociopathic and violent. (Jagman's story (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63831-The-male-abuse-of-women&p=736545&viewfull=1#post736545) -- wow.) And I have met and am privileged to know some most remarkably wonderful, gentle, kind and wise men.

I'm talking about the shape of the world and the trajectory of its history.

As best I know:


No women were among those who crucified Christ.
No women took part in the burning of the Cathars in the Albigensian Crusades.
No women were among those who betrayed Atahualpa and destroyed the Inca civilization.
No women were among the Aztec priests who cut out the hearts of live virgins.
No women took part in the Massacre at Wounded Knee.
No women condemned millions of people to death in Stalin's Gulags.
No women gassed, shot, raped, starved or tortured millions of Jews in the Nazi death camps.
Few women work in the factory ships that wantonly kill huge whales despite their being seriously endangered.
Few women take part in the annual culling of dolphins and seals in Norway and Canada.
Few women are the CEOs of major corporations that are trashing the planet and its resources.
Few women took part in the macho wholesale big game hunting massacre of the African wildlife in the 19th century.
No women are among the elite controllers of the world. (Hilary Clinton is an underling.)
Anyone reading this could generate hundreds more examples.

Nanoo Nanoo
28th September 2013, 23:34
Yes -- with the caveat (as I said) "as a rule". For non-English-speakers, that means "usually".

Ok thank you : 0 ) i strongly disagree and have experienced things to the contrary.

•No women were among those who crucified Christ. reportedly no , however none of us were there to be sure however he was willingly crucified to protect the bearer of the spirit and teaching which was Mary Magdelene.. it would be important to note she was the bearer of the message and had to be protected at all costs , this is of course the way i interpreted how that murky tale happened.

A lot of these things you list are things the more physically strong species were sent out to do to defend their families or as their believed duty.


•No women are among the elite controllers of the world. (Hilary Clinton is an underling.) i think you are abusing Hilary's position by saying that Bill.. hmm

here is a list of the top 100 power women and their positions. I think most would agree they are in Key positions ie IMF , DHS etc .. these are very influential positions .. Im not having a go at women , ive learned that anger dosent solve anything and i owe it to my sister who is here and knows who she is : 0 )

I merely want to point out that women have achieved so much and ARE in huge positions of power all around the world, i refer to forbes

http://www.forbes.com/power-women/

I hope they use their positions to do good and make a shift for us.. we will see in time.

I believe if we do not acknowledge the progress made so far we wont see where we need to go from here.

The subject of concentrating on the past problem i think is counter productive .. now that women have made their case how can we re integrate and be happy again ? i think all men and women here wish to progress and perhaps this is a katalyst for that ? for understanding ? i hope so because that would be great !

N

Snookie
28th September 2013, 23:48
"If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different."

I'm not so sure about this. There are plenty of women who are like Hilary Clinton who would rise to positions of power. Do you really think the world would be any better off with women such as her being in charge? I have seen my share of girls fights over the years, and we can be every bit as vicious as any male. We can be even more vicious and cutting with our words.

Women do hold 50% of the responsibility of how both their daughters and sons are raised. If mothers are fearful of their husbands that sends a powerful message to their children of BOTH sexes, and the cycle is repeated again.




Bill Ryan : Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --
•they don't start wars;
•they don't sadistically torture;
•they don't sexually abuse children;
•they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
•they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.
Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.Bill, is this honestly your opinion ?


Yes -- with the caveat (as I said) "as a rule". For non-English-speakers, that means "usually".

Also to Tesla: I know one can always find women who are cruel, mean, scheming, sociopathic and violent. (Jagman's story (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63831-The-male-abuse-of-women&p=736545&viewfull=1#post736545) -- wow.) And I have met and am privileged to know some most remarkably wonderful, gentle, kind and wise men.

I'm talking about the shape of the world and the trajectory of its history.

As best I know:


No women were among those who crucified Christ.
No women took part in the burning of the Cathars in the Albigensian Crusades.
No women were among those who betrayed Atahualpa and destroyed the Inca civilization.
No women were among the Aztec priests who cut out the hearts of live virgins.
No women took part in the Massacre at Wounded Knee.
No women condemned millions of people to death in Stalin's Gulags.
No women gassed, shot, raped, starved or tortured millions of Jews in the Nazi death camps.
Few women work in the factory ships that wantonly kill huge whales despite their being seriously endangered.
Few women take part in the annual culling of dolphins and seals in Norway and Canada.
Few women are the CEOs of major corporations that are trashing the planet and its resources.
Few women took part in the macho wholesale big game hunting massacre of the African wildlife in the 19th century.
No women are among the elite controllers of the world. (Hilary Clinton is an underling.)
Anyone reading this could generate hundreds more examples.


And how many women were aware the men in their lives were doing these things and did nothing to stop them? My point is we all (both men and women) share in the blame of these things, whether by "commission" or "omission".

If women teach their sons to honour women, and don't allow their spouses to dishonour them. They will have taught both their sons how to treat women, and also their daughters not to put up with any crap from men.

One of the main problems as I see it is that mothers have taught their daughters that they are nothing without a man in their lives. They don't tell their sons they are nothing without a woman. When both sexes finally feel complete within themselves and don't get into unhealthy relationships because they fear "growing old alone" or that they are "less than" without the other, they may finally begin picking partners who are truly good for them, and allow them to be all they are meant to be.

Atlas
29th September 2013, 00:24
The fact that woman and man complement each other induces that they form a whole.
Therefore, the only solution is equality. There is no compromise.

http://thepeninsulairelandblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/gender-inequality.jpg?w=286&h=217

Poly Hedra
29th September 2013, 00:27
A heated debate eh? :)
I can see all sides and of course have an opinion. Growing up with a violent mother who in turn had a violent father. I always thought nobody would take me seriously if I told anyone that she was beating the crap out of me, because she was a woman and women are nurturing and kind, of course.

But I think we're all getting a bit hunkered down here, because when we look at male and female we should be looking at the bigger picture; matriarchy, patriarchy, masculine, feminine. This energy is askew on a micro and macro scale.
We are being polarised and brainwashed by advertising , pop stars and movies to behave and react in certain ways, because we saw it in the movies.

Soap operas are another example. Don't you think that when we are shown people sleeping around, jumping into bed together, having affairs, plotting murder and revenge... Don't you think that we are desensitized and taught how to behave by watching actors, that we look at harder and more explicit images all day, every day!
Sex sells!
The way I see it, the masculine energy has been the dominant energy for a long time now, in it's negative extreme we have abuse of power. The feminine is slowly becoming stronger.
The abuse of women by men comes from the energy of abuse of power over another, this energy is seen in every facet of life. Every twisted version is experienced until balance is regained.

Sierra
29th September 2013, 00:28
The subject of concentrating on the past problem i think is counter productive .. now that women have made their case how can we re integrate and be happy again ? i think all men and women here wish to progress and perhaps this is a katalyst for that ? for understanding ? i hope so because that would be great !
N

Past? I have never seen so many news reports of violence towards girls and women, the world over, as I have in the last twelve months... It is what it is.

Sierra

Camilo
29th September 2013, 00:28
At the time of the Fall of Consciousness, it was necessary to create an energetic field or structure to hold and prevent the Earth from falling into a complete elimination. That structure became known as the third dimension, and it was very dense, conditional and rigid. To guide the Earth back into its intended brilliance, a very powerful aspect of Creator known as the Divine Feminine was brought to the Earth and to Her inhabitants. You see, before the Fall of Consciousness, Earth was a very rarified consciousness of Light, not the physical form you know it as today.

The Divine Feminine’s guidance took on the role of the matriarch. Its purpose was very clear and focused, yet it operated within the very rigid and fear-based structure of the third dimension. The Divine Feminine’s purpose was the survival of Earth and humanity.

At the time, those in female form ruled, protected, and helped humanity to survive. It was a matriarchal global culture for a very long time. The focus was on the continuation of life. And while this goal was accomplished, the global culture that survived was very much out of balance with regard to the masculine nature. As the matriarchal domination, rigidity, rules and control continued, the masculine could tolerate no more and eventually rose up, revolted, protested, and took their power. The tables turned and the global culture shifted from female dominated to male dominated. Of course, there are still the rare subcultures on the planet today that are of a matriarchal nature.

In that transition into patriarchy there was third dimensional resentment, resistance, anger and retaliation. The patriarchy took command and the feminine was dominated and subjugated.

This is now changing. As the critical mass of balanced feminine and masculine creative energy is restored in both men and women, and personal power is taken back into our own lives.

grannyfranny100
29th September 2013, 00:30
It has been a tough transition for men. I was on the first edge of woman's lib and didn't "settle" for marriage to get out of my parents' house. Sure it was tough "fighting" the workplace system but worth it. I was not interested in being a house slave controlled by male dominance. Eventually I did marry but I thought everyday males were losers. They had lost any male enhancing tribal rituals generations ago, required unbelievable amounts of stroking and were just resting on their automatically assumed superiority.

Everything was changing. Men could no longer provide a one income family life that was the essence of their presumed superiority in our society. How could they assume they could rule "their" household when they couldn't even provide the money. Suddenly women could earn a living and didn't have to stay married to a lousy provider. If she was abused so the male could feel superior, she could dump him and the divorce rate skyrocketed. With advances in birth control, women could indulge in recreational sex the way men had been doing for years if they wanted to: love them and leave them. Over the next few generations, men were reduced to being sperm donors. That is a lot for men to absorb about their changing role and I think the adjustment has been harder for men as women changed.

Unfortunately, women adopted male tactics to get ahead in the male dominate business world rather than adding a female view to the decision-making process. Women learned to play hard ball and made sure they had better credentials than their male competitors. If women were competing for a job requiring a bachelor's degree, they made sure they had an MBA. Meanwhile men were bonding around the water cooler oblivious to what was happening. The best they could come up with was "she slept her way to the top or mid management."

Women with their newly minted MBAs quickly figured out that the GDP did not include child rearing activities so they heartlessly dumped kids at childcare facilities in pursuit of greed, power and equality with male superiority. The behavior, manners and values of the next generations shows the sad outcome of children raised by TV and cheap childcare. And women gave up their social service activities that men depended on to counterbalance corporate America's lack of concern about poverty, the environment, etc.

Although the myth of romantic love still exists with the young, neither men or women evaluate a relationship's capacity to nurture each other's higher ambitions. They don't think beyond their sexual organs and reproducing because it will be the most creative thing they will ever do.

I liked what my college roommate did. She and her husband both worked and had a plan. They lived on one income and banked the other for a house down payment. When they were ready, they bought a house and had a baby. Since they were use to living on one income, she could stay home, make her own organic baby food and raise their child with the values they had. She returned to her M.A. career later and is well known in her field despite the baby break. Of course they didn't have every new adult toy as soon as it was marketed. They knew how to delay gratification rather than buy into debt to satisfy their immediate needs. And of course they didn't go, Oh, woe is me" and seek every government "entitlement" meant to entrap people.

I think both sexes have a long way to go so they can establish a relationship that enhances both of their long term goals and not just their reproduction gratification. As it is now the parents have to hand off the child for visitation rights at local police stations because they can't be civil to each other for the sake of the child.

Men and women need to cooperate to get us over the hump of male dominated religions, wars and gross government budgets for the military industrial interests and once again value the family.

Sierra
29th September 2013, 00:30
At the time of the Fall of Consciousness, it was necessary to create an energetic field or structure to hold and prevent the Earth from falling into a complete elimination. That structure became known as the third dimension, and it was very dense, conditional and rigid. To guide the Earth back into its intended brilliance, a very powerful aspect of Creator known as the Divine Feminine was brought to the Earth and to Her inhabitants. You see, before the Fall of Consciousness, Earth was a very rarified consciousness of Light, not the physical form you know it as today.

The Divine Feminine’s guidance took on the role of the matriarch. Its purpose was very clear and focused, yet it operated within the very rigid and fear-based structure of the third dimension. The Divine Feminine’s purpose was the survival of Earth and humanity.

At the time, those in female form ruled, protected, and helped humanity to survive. It was a matriarchal global culture for a very long time. The focus was on the continuation of life. And while this goal was accomplished, the global culture that survived was very much out of balance with regard to the masculine nature. As the matriarchal domination, rigidity, rules and control continued, the masculine could tolerate no more and eventually rose up, revolted, protested, and took their power. The tables turned and the global culture shifted from female dominated to male dominated. Of course, there are still the rare subcultures on the planet today that are of a matriarchal nature.

Damn pendulum. :)

Paul
29th September 2013, 00:33
And how many women were aware the men in their lives were doing these things and did nothing to stop them? My point is we all (both men and women) share in the blame of these things, whether by "commission" or "omission".
Yes, we all share the blame ... but there are differences, on average, between how men and how women are involved in all this.

Bill Ryan
29th September 2013, 00:36
A heated debate eh? :)


I think it's an excellent debate (more of a passionate discussion, really), and there have been some wonderful posts from a lot of people.

conec's post above that I quoted here is really just an opportunity for me to hook on to it to say thanks to all. A short while back (see his post #50 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63831-The-male-abuse-of-women&p=736674&viewfull=1#post736674) above), Nanoo strongly disagreed with me, but the exchange was very respectful and intelligent, and I genuinely appreciated his post. I would love this thread to continue in the same vein.

This issue is not simple and certainly encompasses a huge amount of culture, history, politics, social custom, individual predisposition, and a great deal else! What we're doing here is laying out a great mosaic on the table for all to see, and we all have the opportunity to learn by considering each other's different viewpoints.

norman
29th September 2013, 00:40
This looks like a big subject here, so I s'pose I better be careful.

"base disregard for the Divine Feminine"

We should be so lucky.

I'm waiting for the issue of base disregard for the divine masculine to kick in and become a flavour that get's the nod from thinkers.

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 00:57
The subject of concentrating on the past problem i think is counter productive .. now that women have made their case how can we re integrate and be happy again ? i think all men and women here wish to progress and perhaps this is a katalyst for that ? for understanding ? i hope so because that would be great !
N

Past? I have never seen so many news reports of violence towards girls and women, the world over, as I have in the last twelve months... It is what it is.

Sierra

Sorry i didnt explain my self better. I mean that now we have established historically what is wrong and what women deserve, to concentrate on technology for an Egalitarian society between the sexes. If we did it in the past before the need for Patriarchy came in , then we can return to it as it seems was our natural propensity.

In the mean time the tangent we have drifted down is probably more to do with politics and deliberate shifting of natural relations than natural co existance.

And again we have to discern if this debate is purely about Rights and not drift off into sexual abuses because thats a totally different ( but just as important mind you ) discussion. For the debate and learning to be on a steady course it would be wise not to dilute the questions.

And in answer to your question my dear Sierra , there are a great deal of wrongs in the world and pretty much everybody is suffering from the effects. In general in order to effect change we must identify the problem first ( which we have ) but then shift the focus to the solutions and then impliment them without breaking stride.

We know all too well what the problems are, what are the solutions ? And can we have some solution suggestions ?

Things or lines of thinking , like injecting potential code , that can start to change our direction into something better. Because while the machine divides us , its conquering while we in fight.

hmm


N

Carmody
29th September 2013, 01:22
Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


It is a core shift, that was created along with the Abrahamic religions -the scourge of this planet, today.

IMO and via research, it appears it was designed to remove a male from his core sexual balance in his masculine/feminine relations, and in his relation to the world. To prevent elevation of the self, to keep a sexual orientation that is primitive and to keep patriarchal and remote godhood (god is separate) alive and well.

It was designed to block the door to ultimate truth in the male, to block him from his personal enlightenment. To block and cover it with overt and primitive sexuality that is turned selfish, disassociated and violently outward, to block ultimate gain of intelligence and creative capacity.

Note to those who are not aware: the doorway to 'other', which resides in the self, is at the deepest parts. and when someone burns down the basis of the mind-body bridge, and soaks it in female betrayal, betrayal of the mother as a core point in the origins of emotional existence in the male, and this act becomes a disassociated sexually induced primitive violent reflection that runs throughout the being...well ....you can see the result. (the story is more complex, this is the tip of the iceberg)

Circumcision was a key component in creating war and controlling the world and it's expression via Abrahamic religions.

turiya
29th September 2013, 01:36
I have heard that the major difference between men & women, the difference that has created all the problems is this: men think about sex every 4 minutes & women think about it every 7 minutes. That's it! This difference is the basis for all the problems that exist between men & women.

That is the difference that makes man be more aggressive after women. That is why women can pretend that they are not interested, that they are not concerned with sex in comparison to man. That is why men have to go into a foreplay, have to persuade women (for at least 3 minutes) that its okay, everything is alright to have sex. It is the difference that allows women to claim the upper ground, to say with their body language, "I am not running after you."

Men are more aggressive, and women are more receptive. This is why man appears as the bumbling bee, and women are like flowers... all they have to do is display their beauty to attract a stumbling bumbling sex minded bee.

Three minutes seems like a insignificant amount of time, but that is all it takes to create all the problems that exist between men & women.

turiya :cool:

Carmody
29th September 2013, 01:51
Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


It is a core shift, that was created along with the Abrahamic religions -the scourge of this planet, today.

IMO and via research, it appears it was designed to remove a male from his core sexual balance in his masculine/feminine relations, and in his relation to the world. To prevent elevation of the self, to keep a sexual orientation that is primitive and to keep patriarchal and remote godhood (god is separate) alive and well.

It was designed to block the door to ultimate truth in the male, to block him from his personal enlightenment. To block and cover it with overt and primitive sexuality that is turned selfish, disassociated and violently outward, to block ultimate gain of intelligence and creative capacity.

Note to those who are not aware: the doorway to 'other', which resides in the self, is at the deepest parts. and when someone burns down the basis of the mind-body bridge, and soaks it in female betrayal, betrayal of the mother as a core point in the origins of emotional existence in the male, and this act becomes a disassociated sexually induced primitive violent reflection that runs throughout the being...well ....you can see the result. (the story is more complex, this is the tip of the iceberg)

Circumcision was a key component in creating war and controlling the world and it's expression via Abrahamic religions.

In the traditional method, done at 7 days after birth by a rabbi, with no anesthetic or other concern, we are talking about a damage level that is as a psychotic break, in the core of the avatar vehicle, wich turns it sideways,and away from confrontation with the damage to the core self.

We are talking about a broken animal of sexual orientation and damage, which rides in the formation of the unconsciousness of the vehicle/avatar, which screws up and changes the neural formation and path of the unfolding/creation of the mind.

The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

We simply don't recognize what it is we are looking at.

ulli
29th September 2013, 01:52
I have heard that the major difference between men & women, the difference that has created all the problems is this: men think about sex every 4 minutes & women think about it every 7 minutes. That's it! This difference is the basis for all the problems that exist between men & women.

That is the difference that makes man be more aggressive after women. That is why women can pretend that they are not interested, that they are not concerned with sex in comparison to man. That is why men have to go into a foreplay, have to persuade women (for at least 3 minutes) that its okay, everything is alright to have sex. It is the difference that allows women to claim the upper ground, to say with their body language, "I am not running after you."

Men are more aggressive, and women are more receptive. This is why man appears as the bumbling bee, and women are like flowers... all they have to do is display their beauty to attract a stumbling bumbling sex minded bee.

Three minutes seems like a insignificant amount of time, but that is all it takes to create all the problems that exist between men & women.

turiya :cool:

And all along I thought that men think about sex every 3 months and women every 7 months...

turiya
29th September 2013, 01:58
And all along I thought that men think about sex every 3 months and women every 7 months...

I suppose that age can play a factor :cool:

turiya

Camilo
29th September 2013, 01:58
And all along I thought that men think about sex every 3 months and women every 7 months...

Ha, ha ,ha, ha.....:sarcastic:

turiya
29th September 2013, 02:05
In the traditional method, done at 7 days after birth by a rabbi, with no anesthetic or other concern, we are talking about a damage level that is as a psychotic break, in the core of the avatar vehicle, wich turns it sideways,and away from confrontation with the damage to the core self.

We are talking about a broken animal of sexual orientation and damage, which rides in the formation of the unconsciousness of the vehicle/avatar, which screws up and changes the neural formation and path of the unfolding/creation of the mind.

The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

We simply don't recognize what it is we are looking at.

No doubt, a child needs protection - a responsibility of the parent (especially the mother), that the abusive act (circumcision) gives rise to an unconscious revenge toward women, and others (passive aggressive/covert hostility) which plays into the making of a military tool for war.

turiya :cool:

Anchor
29th September 2013, 02:06
Past? I have never seen so many news reports of violence towards girls and women, the world over, as I have in the last twelve months... It is what it is.

Sierra

It is what it is, but it doesn't mean we cant change it.

With modern communications and new systems it is easier for us to see things which we would never have known about in the past.

What is done in the dark will come to light and in that light it will be dealt with.

While stuff goes on in secret, unreported, etc we don't have a chance.

Painful though it may be, facing this is necessary in order to deal with this.

The truth sets us free, but first it pisses us off.

So I think the news reports exposing more of the truth is a good thing - despite the pain and the heavy demands made on our compassion.

It is not hopeless, but it wont get fixed instantly either.

My forum name Anchor came from the title of a book which is "To Be an Anchor in the Storm: A Guide for Families and Friends of Abused Women" by Susan Brewster. I had to read that book in order to deal with more than one difficult abuse cases which I somehow managed to cross paths with - over 20 years ago now, but I don't think I had the book until 1997 or so in an effort to make some sort of sense of the madness which is domestic abuse.

To say I have completely understood it all would be a lie. To say I can recall these episodes from my past without pain would be a lie. They were all part of a rude awakening to the world of what I now would probably call "harsh catalyst" !

What really sets me off is when a baseless allegation or unfounded implication of sexual abuse or some-kind of sexual misconduct (by implication, spin and weasel words) is used to strike out at someone - even if that someone is not my flavor of the month - no-one deserves that.

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 02:22
And all along I thought that men think about sex every 3 months and women every 7 months...

I suppose that age can play a factor :cool:

turiya

Or individual. :wave:

Kimberley
29th September 2013, 02:58
I have not been following this tread and have only seen this last page...however circumcision has been a topic of interest of mine for 22 years (when I was pregnant with my first child. Both of my children are female, however I still researched this not knowing if they would be male or female.)

Have not done an internet search on the topic for many years, because I came to the conclusion 22 years ago that "Why would the penis be created with a flaw???" Just as why would a women not breast feed her children? Breasts are to feed baby's.

I just did a quick search and was tying to find something that I read in a book about the history of circumcision 22 years ago and can not find it. It was a quote from a rabi in the 15th century that admitted that circumcision was introduced to curb sexual pleasure for both the male and the female. He said something along the lines of "if a women was with an uncircumcised man she would never want to be with a circumcised man."

And from personal experience and from asking other women with personal experience, uncircumcised men are far, far, far more able to "last much longer" and therefore more able to give a women a vaginal/g-spot orgasm that a circumcised man.

Fact: only 25% of women reach orgasm via intercourse even though all porn and movies and TV shows show women achieving orgasm via intercourse.

There is a great documentary about female orgasm "OrgasmInc"... here is the trailer http://orgasminc.org/about-synopsis.php?trailer=true if you search you might find it to view for free...I viewed it on demand at Netflix earlier this year.

Anyway....So sorry for all the men and women that have been affected by this horrible mutilation of the removal of the foreskin.

Do search "the history of circumcision" for a whole lot of information...and do not be fooled that circumcision is a beneficial procedure. It is a painful mutilation of the male organ that is not flawed as was intended to bring pleasure to both males and females.

One of the BIGGEST control tactics played on mankind has been in the area of trying to repress the pleasure and spiritual power of human sexuality!

Ok I apologize if anyone is offended, however I just speak my truth. I will get off of my soap box now....

Much love and peace to us all!!! :grouphug:

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 03:20
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 03:33
In my early 20's, I was in a physically abusive, live-in relationship. Not for long. Two maybe three months that felt like years. The most embarrassing time was when he sat on top of me and had my arms pinned down. After slaps that felt like punches to the face, he spit at me. Several times. It’s the part I remember most, that and his facial expression. Archonic. I didn’t have the word back then but I knew the energy.

The last straw was when it was safer for me to jump from the second story window. And that I did. And promised myself I’d never to do it again... Never broke that promise.

I say, do not fall into the trap of security and things...Life is too short. Life is too precious. Give yourself permission to be a quick study and move on.

And some day this will be outdate advise. We’re evolving beyond where sociopaths, psychopaths and archonic energies can not thrive.

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 03:49
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N


Accept strong women, don’t try to change them into something they are not.
Know that if we have different opinions, it doesn’t make yours wrong. They’re just different.
Be as supportive of us as we are for you.
Life is not a competition.


Note: I know not all men fit the above. In fact, I'm encourage since I've come to Avalon. There are many open-minded, supportive men and women.

judymoon
29th September 2013, 05:16
If we are spirits incarnating in physical form to learn and grow, then we must learn different and valid lessons no matter what sex we incarnate into.

Not only girls are sexually molested and raped.

It seems to me that this planet is quite a dangerous incarnation experience.

Fear seems like an appropriate response, yet overcoming fear has been one of my biggest lessons. There doesn't seem to be any place here for naiviete and innocence. It's like a marine boot-camp for the soul.

Its hard to fathom how much suffering can take place on one tiny blue sphere in space. I think anyone on a spiritual path must everntually confront the monster in the road - what is the purpose of all this suffering? I've used this quote before on this forum, Ran Dass said it about his spiritual experience on this planet, that it was like ...."walking through hell with an open heart." You can't ignore the suffering, and you can't close your heart to it.

This thread is about the male abuse of women, but it seems abuse is rampant...human against animal, race against race, gender against gender, adult against child.

I think we are all capable of abuse against someone or something with less power. Fighting against that urge is one of the disciplines that forges us into spiritual beings.

Bill - I know you are a Pisces and that you have the generous open heart of that sign of the zodiac. When you incarnate in the sign of Pisces you are very close to merging back into the All. Your heart is wide open, compassion rules, and gender differences merge. I think you should be proud of being an empathetic male and quide to other males who need an example. I have certainly learned from watching your refusal to take sides or polarize.

Being a spirit in a biological body it is sometimes easy to forget the 'spirit' part. I feel like I spent a major portion of my life 'driven' by my bodies own hormonal impulses. The desire to be in love, procreate, deal with the sex drive, obsess about relationship etc. all went away for me when I reached a certain age, the hormones subsided, and felt like I was becoming 'sane' again. Now I can remember what it felt like to be a young girl, before all that chemically induced madness began.

it's awesome...heh :)

What i'm saying is, we have to factor in the gender and species characteristics that we incarnated into and realise....we are not that....but we are deeply affected by that.

Can we say 'no' to abusing when we have the power and the opportunity?

Can we empathise with, and be advocates for those who are abused, victimised, bullied, tortured, and not lose our center?

Dealing with suffering without losing faith, and without anger and blame, seems to me a master level in spiritual development.

I want to get there!

Someone once told me that when you heal a family wound ( sexual abuse, rage-a-holism, physical abuse, drug abuse, whatever) you heal the ancestrial line. The same is probably true on a species level. The work we do to grow spiritually radiates out and affects many. Stopping abuse starts on a personal level and grows from there. What we do in our day-to-day lives makes a difference.

lizfrench
29th September 2013, 05:19
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N

2. Fathers be kind to your boys, show them how to manage their physical power and don't feed them ADD meds.

CdnSirian
29th September 2013, 06:26
I found it interesting that when Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher formed a cohesive team willing to take on human trafficking and sponsor changes of laws in the US they were quickly shut down, suddenly separated and she tanked completely and experienced public humiliation while his playing in hot tubs with babes was laughed off. She's pretty well disappeared. While individuals do have problems, the timing on this was noticeable. It is an example I feel, of the thick wall of protection around the issue.

As long as women are kept from birth control and men can rape their wives, there will always be too many mouths to feed.

Naomi Wolf's book "Vagina" has an entire chapter on male abuse against women and how young boys, specifically in Africa, are forced to engage in brutalities. Not only are the women now being sewn back together and counselled but there are hundreds of young males being counselled and raised (hopefully) to become protective and social beings with women.

I agree circumcision should be done away with just like female genital mutilation. Talk about nipping life in the bud. It couldn't be done better.

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 07:23
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N

2. Fathers be kind to your boys, show them how to manage their physical power and don't feed them ADD meds.

This is a good one thank you , the meds however is covered by choosing a good doctor. thats another debate all together besides thats endorsing patriarchy as the male being the one in charge .. you both have to take responsibility on that one in Egalitarian relationships.

N

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 07:33
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N


Accept strong women, don’t try to change them into something they are not.
Know that if we have different opinions, it doesn’t make yours wrong. They’re just different.
Be as supportive of us as we are for you.
Life is not a competition.


Note: I know not all men fit the above. In fact, I'm encourage since I've come to Avalon. There are many open-minded, supportive men and women.

I hear you on this Paula but can i pick on you here , i hate this to be you but is this not a relationship issue ? its not nessesarily an equality issue imo. I mean you could reverse the angle and be talking about a reversal of sexes here.

What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.

In terms of your situation however , which is important to address, can i offer some advise and i speak from experience. Anyone can get a " dud " when they pick a partner, male or female ... the problem is we think they will change and because we have invested time and effort we stick around till the defective model has a malfunction and we put up with it for whatever reason.

The advise i give to you is this .. The moment you notice abnormal behaviour , get out and leave. If you stick around you are asking for trouble. There are plenty of awesome people in the world to date so move on sonner rather than later. This is for everybody .. dont suffer in a dead end relationship ! AND dont have kids with a defective model. Ladies in particular you should be very careful and vet the potential sperm doner , you are going to have that child you are stuck with him forever.

MAKE wise decisions.

N

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 11:36
Ok SO far we have

1 : No Circumcision
2 : Fathers be good to your children
3 : Support one another ( i managed this from your post paula , on second read i see what you were saying )


We are getting somewhere , can anybody else have a suggestion ? Ladies please dont be shy :0 )

N

Anchor
29th September 2013, 11:47
I found this interesting list today, a hop skip and a jump from some reddit surfing.

101 Everyday Ways for Men to Be Allies to Women

http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-ways-for-men-to-be-allies-to-women/

It is too much to copy, but have a read, I think this guy has a lot of this thought out quite well.

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 12:32
I found this interesting list today, a hop skip and a jump from some reddit surfing.

101 Everyday Ways for Men to Be Allies to Women

http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-ways-for-men-to-be-allies-to-women/

It is too much to copy, but have a read, I think this guy has a lot of this thought out quite well.

thanks anchor ..i had a read of this .. just a show of hands ,i want to know if its just me that thinks this , but the guy they describe as the stereotypical male .. is that a real person ? ( not a joke ) is that what women have been putting up with or is it an interpretation of the worst case scenario for a total jerk and then used as a template for the average man ?

honestly i am wondering if i am having the same experience you guys are because i cannot relate to much of it in terms of how " men " think or at least the men i know and converse with .. hmm

" The femminist guide to non creepy flirting " now thats an eye opener

i must admit something ,i feel quite detatched .. i know it was bad out there but can it seriously be that un normal ? do these people exist ?

i need to get out more

N

CD7
29th September 2013, 13:25
What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.




Im a bit perplexed here...would not see MEN as the ones who have to fix this?...

Its a overarching issue....its a model that has been cast and set up by WHO? I certainly do not know...however the results are obvious for us to SEE.

Depending on what neck of the woods you reside in, also depends on the gender EXPECTATIONS that are literally brainwashed in from cradle to grave.

Ive noticed sex being apart of the conversation and I suppose im confused about tht too? An individuals sexual appetite, to me, is just a difference from one individual to the next (im not including abuse here) and should not be categorized by gender. As a female my experience with "sex" has not AT ALL been what ive been told it SHOULD BE, or should have looked like.

If there any suggestions, it would be if we could be seen as a BEING/INDIVIDUAL first and no CONDITIONING of what type of gender role a person SHOULD BE PLAYING. The attraction from male/female...could be viewed just as if someone were attracted or gravitated to a friend of the same sex. No expectations and each BEING cultivated to be their own SOVEREIGHN self and learn to be dependent upon oneself first and foremost---support can come from everyone in a community who viewed each other as "family"

The crux of relationships is we are depending on anothers consciousness.....when in REALITY WE HAVENT EVEN LEARNED TO CONTROL OUR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS AS A SPECIES

So what is a committed relationship? its two individuals driving a car and each is dependent on the other to keep the wheel in the same direction----hummm how well does that go? Not very well...especially when the road has been made MUCH MORE difficult to steer, obstacles in all directions and in addition each is told how to drive regardless of their own compass. People change directions/consciousness all the time. And the directions each gender is conditioned to see themselves driving in, seems to be very counterproductive to any real harmonious endeavor! Its like forcing to opposite magnets together

Well welcome to the world and its base of operations!!! If we also think about it....a womens role is somewhat set up to view man in similar way we are conditioned to view GOD. Put your trust in him, relinquish your own power, and he will provide. You are to serve him and he is to be your lifelong caretaker. Its quite the pattern we have throughout our globe. Relinquishing of one's power over to another. Never really being CULTIVATED to be our own sovereign individual with the power to create AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE OUR OWN CAR FIRST before you add another individual in to drive ALONG WITH YOU

778 neighbour of some guy
29th September 2013, 13:53
Quote from Christine.


All I could say, that if a male became a female right now IS THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD REALLY GET IT...
And ill say im sure this goes for women as well!! Overall in my view, its a gender conditioning over a life that effects BOTH SIDES


umKMUH-_K7E

The conditioning............ odd isn't it, I know this is about male abuse but......17 years ago I cleaned my act up, I was very much a dope addict and checked myself in in a clinic voluntarily for 15 months.....there I witnessed that the root of addiction comes from conditioning by upbringing, experiencing lack....of affection, understanding, love.....experiencing abuse, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual.. there I witnessed first hand that both genders handled this differently, man could turn to self destructive aggression and make a mess of things in a very obvious way, women however who got taught not to fight and be violent had a totally different strategy but no less violent in nature...... tears..........and sexual manipulation........ very cruel and very much a powerful weapon and also very hardcore abusive.....and pre programmed by many many mothers into their daughters, I don't know where to take this from here on....... but I thought that observation at least deserved to be pointed out as well................in any case, different strategies can give pretty much the same results, f@cked up people who assign blame to each other, until they see it for what it really is/was, hmm,
complicated subject eh. Hope I didn't drift to far off topic with the above.

BTW, there is a chapter in "quite weapons for silent wars" that deals with this subject, a must read.

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 13:56
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N


Accept strong women, don’t try to change them into something they are not.
Know that if we have different opinions, it doesn’t make yours wrong. They’re just different.
Be as supportive of us as we are for you.
Life is not a competition.


Note: I know not all men fit the above. In fact, I'm encourage since I've come to Avalon. There are many open-minded, supportive men and women.

I hear you on this Paula but can i pick on you here , i hate this to be you but is this not a relationship issue ? its not nessesarily an equality issue imo. I mean you could reverse the angle and be talking about a reversal of sexes here.

What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.

In terms of your situation however , which is important to address, can i offer some advise and i speak from experience. Anyone can get a " dud " when they pick a partner, male or female ... the problem is we think they will change and because we have invested time and effort we stick around till the defective model has a malfunction and we put up with it for whatever reason.

The advise i give to you is this .. The moment you notice abnormal behaviour , get out and leave. If you stick around you are asking for trouble. There are plenty of awesome people in the world to date so move on sonner rather than later. This is for everybody .. dont suffer in a dead end relationship ! AND dont have kids with a defective model. Ladies in particular you should be very careful and vet the potential sperm doner , you are going to have that child you are stuck with him forever.

MAKE wise decisions.

N


Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Hi Nanoo Nanoo,

This is what you asked: you would like to see change that is not already in process.. From my perspective, you’ve demonstrated some of my points. And I understand it is your perspective. Which just made a case for another on my list.

After my post, I went to bed and thought more. It’s a list that fits both men and women. Which brings me to your point that mine is about relationships. To that I say, yes and no. My list is for BOTH a relationship and world perspective. And aren’t relationships what life is all about? Between two, between many? We don’t need different sets of rules. We getting the heck of Dodge, I mean duality. ‘Keep it simple’, is what works for me.

If the advice you gave on relationships was for me specifically then I’d say: nope, not even close. The advice you gave was for the Paula 35+ years ago. Which is why often I add dates. It is my hope when I share these personal slices of life, that people are encouraged to make change for themselves. One CAN rise out of beaten down emotionally, physically, and/or financially. One gleans knowledge through experience, takes action sooner than later, which transforms into greater knowledge, wisdom and love of self. And comes to rest and KNOW, “Never again.” One last point here. I've got enough life under my belt that I'd add, the experience, knowledge, wisdom and love grows exponentially.

When you say, “No, not, this. Yes that,” means am I willing to put forth the time and energy to see if any make the “Top 10 Nanoo Nanoo list?” No. That’s a game I’ve alway walked way from. From one perspective, that’s an example of competition and not cooperation. Which is one from my list. To me, this is the brainstorm stage. Everyone comes up with solutions. We list, lists, list, without monitor filters.

Not directed at you here: Folks with life experience, street wise savvy, or creativity, or intelligent often see things from the greater perspective. That’s why many test poorly on standardized tests. The makers of the test with tunnel vision want parrot answers. Shiver.

Here’s another for my list: Willingness for all to see from the greater perspective.

Peace,
Paula :wave:

mahalall
29th September 2013, 14:01
An ethnographic analysis of the abuses of men over females is expanded when gender roles within nursing are reviewed.
One might then conclude that it is not gender but miss use of power that is the problem.

kenaz
29th September 2013, 14:15
-------

In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.


Bill...
Do you think you would be a better person if you were female?
Be proud of the man you are, as I am for the woman I am.
Eliminating men as a problem solver will not work. We need both.
Just thank god we don't have three sexes. Yikes!

Ernie Nemeth
29th September 2013, 14:24
For some reason, I can't read today without my shoulder and upper back going into spasms. So I'll make this short.

In my life I've had to take a stance on many issues with friends, family and strangers on various topics that polarize people. The first has always been government and corporations not being the all-knowing, beneficient entities most make them out to be.

And the very next one is the horrible legacy men from the past have left us grappling with - and their contemporaries who continue to promulgate this same mindset and attitude to this very day. Compassionless, pragmatic, cold-hearted reason. I've always held that women would make far better leaders.

And lately, living in the multi-cultural east end of Toronto, putting down the "white man's" brand of justice, which is oh so zenophobic and prejudicial. Many times I must admit my embarrassment at being "white".

Yet even so, I am an example of at least a partially "rehabilatated" "white man". And I am in the vangaurd and an ambassador of a new human that is no longer defined by color or race. Here, in my neck of the woods, I am an example for all to see - and I am very much aware of my role and the great responsibility it entails. My attitudes help others see that in many ways it is not my race that is to blame, nor its color, rather, it is simply (well, maybe not simple exactly) an intellectual void and a proclivity to cling to emotional immaturity that we are all susceptible to. (it has a lot to do with the lack of a rite of passage, where the tribe conducts a ceremony to welcome its newest adult member - those boys (and girls) who have had good parents have had this ceremony in some modern form or another)[my daughter got hers at around age fourteen, won't go into details]

hmmm, the T1 seems to have allowed me to write without much pain. Guess I'll go back and read the other comments then...

Sierra
29th September 2013, 14:52
What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.


Well welcome to the world and its base of operations!!! If we also think about it....a womens role is somewhat set up to view man in similar way we are conditioned to view GOD. Put your trust in him, relinquish your own power, and he will provide. You are to serve him and he is to be your lifelong caretaker. Its quite the pattern we have throughout our globe. Relinquishing of one's power over to another. Never really being CULTIVATED to be our own sovereign individual with the power to create AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE OUR OWN CAR FIRST before you add another individual in to drive ALONG WITH YOU

Have to tell you... I just read a news article some minister in the Saudi government announced that driving cars damages a women's ovaries and reproductive organs...

transiten
29th September 2013, 14:55
I'd like to direct your attention to how much of all that is possible to own on planet earth is divided between men and women.....guess guess, google google...think think....

Do you think money is power? Even if extreeeeemly much money doesn't have anthing to do with the love of money, but the love of power and the fear of loosing it and not belong to the group that has "this amount of income" lifestyle and power.

Pple have a need to belong to a group and more often than not stay with a group even if it doesn't reflect their values. F.i it's more important to identify with those who fly o Thailand once a year, than to stay in Sweden and not pollute the environment. This instinct of survival to not be thrown out of the pack supercedes the ethical values.

Some 20 years ago men owned more than 99% of all possible values on earth. That means..well you can count for yourself :nod: exactly! I don't know whether it's higher or lower now but probably not more than slightly above or below 99%

778 neighbour of some guy
29th September 2013, 14:56
What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.


Well welcome to the world and its base of operations!!! If we also think about it....a womens role is somewhat set up to view man in similar way we are conditioned to view GOD. Put your trust in him, relinquish your own power, and he will provide. You are to serve him and he is to be your lifelong caretaker. Its quite the pattern we have throughout our globe. Relinquishing of one's power over to another. Never really being CULTIVATED to be our own sovereign individual with the power to create AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE OUR OWN CAR FIRST before you add another individual in to drive ALONG WITH YOU

Have to tell you... I just read a news article some minister in the Saudi government announced that driving cars damages a women's ovaries and reproductive organs...

Hmmm, you'd expect the same thing would happen to a mans prostate and nuts in that case eh, what an idiot, or maybe he carry's his a round in a small backpack to prevent sitting on it.

Sierra
29th September 2013, 14:58
i know it was bad out there but can it seriously be that un normal ? do these people exist ?

i need to get out more

N

Yes, I raise my hand, that is normal behavior out there. :)

Sierra

Robin
29th September 2013, 15:43
A thread of this nature is a controversial one. I believe that it won't go anywhere---it's an argument that nobody can win. Here is my own contention:

Biologically, men respond to stress better.
Biologically, women are more caring and understanding.
Both men and women should seek to balance the masculine and feminine.
Working in conjunction, why can't men and women create a reformed system where each contributes their strengths at equal levels given to them biologically?
The above points do not apply to all men and women. But most.


To soften the mood of the thread, here is a wonderful video of a woman and man duo performing a dance called "Symbiosis." Just like organisms interact with one another in elegant unity, so can women and men. This is one of the most beautiful performances I have ever seen, and I hope you all watch it: :clap2: :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOZ6KnVPvIU

Carmen
29th September 2013, 15:45
I have come to a place of balance in my idea of, and my experience, of man and women relationships. My age 63, is a factor but throughout my life and especially after my waking up period I had much learning and realisations to do with male and female relationships. I had a passionate and often stormy forty year marriage. I have always considered that my husband was chosen for me from a deeper perspective. I loved him but he was also part of my karmic lesson for this life!

From childhood I could never lie on the ground for very long. I could not sunbath much, for instance. My whole hip and pelvic region would seize up and it would be very painful. As an adult, lying on my back for a massage for very long would mean it would take ages to get up as I would be very stiff and in pain. Together with this another strange thing about me was that whenever I left home by myself I would feel as though I was escaping. I would speed away from home but coming back my car would get slower and slower. My kids remember this. There was a dread of going home, although when I got home things would be fine generally. I began asking within about this as it was weird behaviour and not really related to my now reality. I asked within for quite a long time. Just on and off, not really expecting an answer.

Well, one day I started getting what could only be described as a download of another life from ancient times. I was baby sitting one of my grandchildren and this toddler was homesick for her parents who had suggested I take her for a ride in a vehicle to settle her down as she loved going places and often went to sleep when being driven. So, we drove places, and this is when the download started, in the car. This download was me in another life. It was a life of terrible physical and sexual abuse! I was a captured girl from, I think a priveleged family and I was a slave, concubine or lessor wife. I was very feisty and pissed off with what had happened and fought back like a wildcat! I was like a wild plaything of a sheik and his cohorts and very much abused. I also danced very well and remember entertaining men with my dance. The sheik was my husband in this life and the soldier/cohorts were past sexual partners in this life. This sheik also had a spoilt fat sister who would loll about on silken cushions and had control over her brother so some reason. This downloading memory was like a click click click that just fell into place. The sister is the same sister in my husbands present life who I saw very clearly. She still has much control over him. I had three or four children whom three are my first three children in this life. The forth I had some inkling was my husbands father. This father never liked my husband and that was strange to me as he was a good son in this life. This karmic connection explained the clear dislike. I died in that old life at age sixteen from the terrible injuries to my body. I have no idea what I'd done in another life to bring upon myself a life of abuse or maybe it was not a karmic lesson! I was always trying to escape, hence the escapism thoughts in this life.

So, this was an amazing experience and explained some strange things about me in this life. This present life was time to meet those ancient or other life characters and to forgive, transcend or let go. My whole hip/ pelvic region let go of that memory and after that download I had no more lower back pain or locked up pelvis. I also let go of my husband and for the first time in our marriage I refused him sex. I gave back to myself the power to say no and it was wonderful.

Bill Ryan
29th September 2013, 15:46
-------

In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.


I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.


Bill...
Do you think you would be a better person if you were female?
Be proud of the man you are, as I am for the woman I am.
Eliminating men as a problem solver will not work. We need both.
Just thank god we don't have three sexes. Yikes!


Yes, we need both! I said in my post #49 here: (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63831-The-male-abuse-of-women&p=736665&viewfull=1#post736665)





I'm talking about the shape of the world and the trajectory of its history.

In answers to your points!

Do you think you would be a better person if you were female?




No, not necessarily at all.


Be proud of the man you are.




I truly am.

:)





A thread of this nature is a controversial one. I believe that it won't go anywhere---it's an argument that nobody can win.

Hi, Sam! Not an argument. I'm finding this a fascinating and highly intelligent discussion. There is no enmity at all... just the sharing of different and most fascinating, points of view.

Robin
29th September 2013, 15:46
I also believe that men's and women's brains have been intentionally hampered with by Reptilians to purposely pit us against one another for thousands of years. To me it never made sense why so many hearts have been broken over egotistical and lame reasons by both men and women. Seems fishy to me.

Mike Gorman
29th September 2013, 15:47
A very complex topic this one, to put it mildly. I think there are two obvious dimensions to it-the macro-institutional, and the private-individual. Obviously people of either gender can be good, Bad,
Evil, Saintly-we all as individuals have a unique 'Onto-genesis', we develop in response to our upbringing, environment,Education... and all those elements influence our behavior and attitudes. While the larger political landscape,
and social institutional climate is one we encounter and have little control over-at least as individuals.
I resonate with Jagman's story-I grew up in a family where my Father was a troubled, angry and rather bitter man-wounded by his experiences in WWII,
and also his upbringing in a Northern English working-class household (Get the Tea on Mrs!) So I too resolved to not be this type of man, and to strive for cordial, rational relations with the opposite sex...and yes I too experienced a disillusionment concerning the supposed innate 'goodness' of Women, but I do not want to make this too long, ...There is indeed a brutal unfairness concerning expectations in our society for males, they are expected to be strong, gentle, protective, steadfast, nurturing and also competitive and aggressive-otherwise they are wimps of course! There are so many stereo-types that we all have to manifest in order to be seen as 'authentic' Men, or Women that we all are brutalized by them- commercial concerns profit by this. In the end it becomes a personal battle, you either 'play along' and adopt a prescribed gender persona, or you become 'Eccentric' and seek to be 'yourself'. I don't think individual men can be expected to feel responsible for the transgressions of society, or the appalling brutality of other men, it is surely a fallacy of thinking to identify the sins of the many with the simple biological state of an individual? I feel sympathy and compassion for many people, but I don't feel guilt because Hitler was a male, and I am also-that is wrong, don't you think? Complex topic this...

Limor Wolf
29th September 2013, 16:00
I typed this after reading only Bill's opening post, but after delving into the rest of this thread It is easy to see that all my points are touched already by the various many wonderful and wise comments and member's point of viewes representing their inner world and outer experience.

I will post this nevertheless -


Bill, it is apparent that you love and appreciate women very much. This is a rare characteristic in a human being. There is also this type of balance that you seem to try and bring to a place that is largely biased in one direction. Thank you for doing that.
Not being one to ponder much about men, woman and everything in between, I rarely seem to see the gender segregation between men and women in everyday life when it comes to the more western liberal societies. It is unfortunetly much more evident in countries based on religion or within tribal societies which are based on labour, money and hirarchy. Other than that like with most everything else nowdays and with many other aspects of our life, it is man/woman playing a co-existing part, it is a mutual cooperation in a play of gender where each one is 'requested' to demonstrate certain features and both are fulfilling their own part in this 3D saga play. For every abuser there is a victim. In a way, it is an equal responsibility, not only that of men. It very possibly be quite the opposite of having a true freedom of spirit who can express themselves without limitations one way or another.

There is no denying that there are certain differences between the two physical genders, which is a positive thing, as it is complementing each other. The main real distinction may be that of the vibration of energy itself - the feminine or the masculine, and in the human specie case everyone have both, though, possibly in different quantity. Some woman have more masculine, some men have more feminine and I would like to suggest that it is absolutely fine to have this very special individual mix within men and woman alike which is not binding each gender to behave in any specific way, only to be a lot more in attunment with their spiritual essence, then, there will be no need to balance the existing biases of our society, since true expression really has no gender or physical attributes. It is what it is and if any one energy finds the expression of another energy specifically appealing than that is the true connection that we can all long for and can respect.

We are far from it right now, but it is something that potentially worth to aspire to. There is something good and worthwhile in 'male' energy as well as with the 'faminine' - assertivness and even power is jolly good if they are used in a measured way, being analitical is as important as being intuative and both complete each other and ideally required in the same human being. It is good to be busy as it is good to be calm. Balance and moderation needs to be achived within the individual human being, less I feel related to the gender.

Our journey goes towards the spirit and leaving behind the various expressivness of the flesh, then there will be no necessity in 'compansating' in favor of one over the other, and there will also be no need to protect the 'weak' against the 'strong' when respect prevails over both sorts of energies and the expression of both will cease to be dual but will become a wonderful fusion of the good of both worlds.

Thank you for this thread

transiten
29th September 2013, 16:18
I'd like to direct your attention to how much of all that is possible to own on planet earth is divided between men and women.....guess guess, google google...think think....

Do you think money is power? Even if extreeeeemly much money doesn't have anthing to do with the love of money, but the love of power and the fear of loosing it and not belong to the group that has "this amount of income" lifestyle and power.

Pple have a need to belong to a group and more often than not stay with a group even if it doesn't reflect their values. F.i it's more important to identify with those who fly o Thailand once a year, than to stay in Sweden and not pollute the environment. This instinct of survival to not be thrown out of the pack supercedes the ethical values.

Some 20 years ago men owned more than 99% of all possible values on earth. That means..well you can count for yourself :nod: exactly! I don't know whether it's higher or lower now but probably not more than slightly above or below 99%

I would appreciate if someone would comment on this, that is the fact that men own 99% of all the values on Planet Earth. You don't think it's crucial? I'm from Sweden and this debate was very active in the radical 70:s, then the 80:s came with more ego and individuaism. Not until now it has been reactivated and many young women act as they invented the wheel once again;)

minkton
29th September 2013, 16:43
I'm puzzled in this thread by the idea that mothers need to stop getting their sons circumsised....circumcision was a woman's idea and is perpetrated by women , and it is entirely up to the mother, if her son is circumcised? I had no idea that men had been so excluded from the entire germination of the idea and that fathers had no voice in this ritual for their sons.

Has it always been entirely the mothers decision? Why? What is the rationale there?

Billy
29th September 2013, 16:55
Hi everyone. This is a topic that very much should be out in the open a not brushed under the carpet and hidden as most cases of abuse are.
I know from experience as many have expressed here already, That it is not only males abusing females.

My personal experience was the same as Jagman's. Physical and emotional abuse for many years from my spouse. Attacked when asleep. Knives at my throat.
endless objects thrown and smashed over my head. The day of enough is enough came in 1998 when i arrived home and my wife walked over to me smiling. I thought oh a cuddle. She laid her hands on my head and drew her nails down each side of my face. deeply, bleeding i asked why did you do that. I don't know she replied. Well this is the last time. I picked up my sleeping bag and left. never to be reunited.

It took a few years later for us to become the great friends that we are now.

Bill mentioned earlier that females were not responsible for the death of Jesus. But who ordered the head of John the Baptist on a plate?

As far as females not being responsible for allowing a child to be sexually abused please read this book written by Donna, a very good friend of mine. I was a catalyst in part for her healing of trauma when we were in India together. Her horrific experience is not good reading but writing this book also assisted her healing process.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1854695.The_Step_Child

My take on this topic is yes abuse happens on both sides. But the question is not that it happens but why does it happen.

Any form of abuse is a sign of great insecurity within the abuser, a form of control over another or others, It does not really matter if this is within a relationship, family. A dictatorship or a religion. It is years of issues and baggage that has never been dealt with and healed. The fear of going within and facing the demons that have been allowed to control self or an organization. Projecting outward towards others their issues, instead of taking responsibility for ones own actions and seeking help.

The first step towards healing is NOT living in denial. For an abuser to say to themselves, Whether male or female, I AM AN ABUSER and i need help. Only then is there hope for any abuser.

Peace

minkton
29th September 2013, 17:26
Having said, when considering the male abuse of women : ' some women are infected by the toxic mentality of abuse'. What do we say next?

We know women mimic men,it is often the only way we know to feel anything but invisible and disempowered, we know of stockholm syndrome, we know abuse is often perpetrated across generations, gender notwithstanding.

Once we have established infection spreads, that the feminine can swallow toxicity to such a degree that decay shows... what do we say next?

I guess "I'm sorry" might be the start of something. Maybe we all need to apologise in the most heartfelt way, to one another. And for one another.

CdnSirian
29th September 2013, 18:00
HkFhPONcNYg Teal Scott, receiver of ritual abuse through childhood - an amazing take on forgiveness and the process she has gone through. Just under an hour.

Her life now is devoted to huge changes on the planet.

The breaking of the cycle, mimicking, or infection.

Should add I have read this whole thread while not logged in mostly - thanks all above!

araucaria
29th September 2013, 19:19
As we try to bring this patriarchal age to an end and see what we can put in its place, it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves of some aspects of the matriarchy that it replaced. For the poet Robert Graves, the Greek myths tell the story of this paradigm change, and here is his description of where the men came from, at a time when their role in procreation was still not fully understood – only about four thousand years ago. Much of this may sound familiar.


Once the relevance of coition to child-bearing had been officially admitted (…) man’s religious status gradually improved, and winds or rivers were no longer given credit for impregnating women. The tribal nymph, it seems, chose an annual lover from her entourage of young men, a king to be sacrificed when the year ended, making him a symbol of fertility, rather than the object of her erotic pleasure. His sprinkled blood served to fructify trees, crops and flocks, and his flesh was torn and eaten raw by the queen’s fellow nymphs – priestesses wearing the masks of bitches, mares, or sows. Next, in amendment to this practice, the king died as soon as the power of the sun, with which he was identified, began to decline in the summer, and another young man, his twin, or supposed twin – a convenient ancient Irish term is ‘tanist’ – then became the queen’s lover, to be duly sacrificed at midwinter and, as a reward, reincarnated in an oracular serpent. These consorts acquired executive powers only when permitted to deputise for the queen by wearing her magical robes. Thus kingship developed, and though the sun became a symbol of male fertility once the king’s life had been identified with its seasonal course, it still remained under the queen’s tutelage, in theory at least, long after the matriarchal phase had been outgrown.

(…) There is, however, no evidence that, even when women were sovereign in religious matters, men were denied fields in which they might act without female supervision, though it may well be that they adopted many of the ‘weaker sex’ characteristics hitherto thought functionally peculiar to man. They could be trusted to hunt, fish, gather certain foods, mind flocks and herds, and help defend the tribal territory against intruders, so long as they did not transgress matriarchal law.

(…) When the shortness of the king’s reign proved irksome, it was agreed to prolong the thirteen-month year to a Great Year of 100 lunations, in the last of which occurs a near-coincidence of solar and lunar time. But since the fields and crops still needed to be fructified, the king agreed to suffer an annual mock death and yield his sovereignty for one day – the intercalated one, lying outside the sacred sidereal year – to the surrogate boy-king, or interrex, who died at its close, and whose blood was used for the sprinkling ceremony. Now the sacred king either reigned for the entire period of a Great Year, with a tanist as his lieutenant; or the two reigned for alternate years; or the queen let them divide the queendom into halves and reign concurrently. The king deputised for the queen at many sacred functions, dressed in her robes, wore false breast, borrowed her lunar axe as a symbol of power, and even took over from her the magical art of rain-making. His ritual death varied greatly in circumstance; he might be torn in pieces by wild women, transfixed with a sting-ray spear, felled with an axe, pricked in the heel with a poisoned arrow, flung over a cliff, burned to death on a pyre, drowned in a pool, or killed in a pre-arranged chariot crash. But die he must. A new stage was reached when animals came to be substituted for boys at the sacrificial altar, and the king refused death after his lengthened reign ended. Dividing the realm into three parts, and awarding one part to each of his successors, he would reign for another term; his excuse being that a closer approximation of solar and lunar time had now been found, namely nineteen years, or 325 lunations. The Great Year had become a Greater Year.

transiten
29th September 2013, 19:24
Thankyou CdnSirian

This woman is speaking the truth, it's the best analysis i've ever heard on the issue of abuse, victim consciousness and forgivness and i'm speaking from personal experience. Although i've been tampering on a very deep level with what i've been through listening to Tela suddenly "flipped something around" taking it to another level!

When it comes to the talk about focusing, conscious creation and money there's a small red flag coming up though...probably wouldn't work very well in a refugee camp for Syrians in Turkey...and Rumi would probably not conscent to the idea about suffering not being necessary only being an effect of resistance.

And the interviewers comment about viewing homelessness as "total freedom and opportunity to do what you want"....give me a break...

(CdnSirian, a medium once said to me Sirius B is the star i go back to between lives, i don't have a clue though :offtopic:)

avid
29th September 2013, 19:47
As we try to bring this patriarchal age to an end and see what we can put in its place, it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves of some aspects of the matriarchy that it replaced. For the poet Robert Graves, the Greek myths tell the story of this paradigm change, and here is his description of where the men came from, at a time when their role in procreation was still not fully understood – only about four thousand years ago. Much of this may sound familiar.


Once the relevance of coition to child-bearing had been officially admitted (…) man’s religious status gradually improved, and winds or rivers were no longer given credit for impregnating women. The tribal nymph, it seems, chose an annual lover from her entourage of young men, a king to be sacrificed when the year ended, making him a symbol of fertility, rather than the object of her erotic pleasure. His sprinkled blood served to fructify trees, crops and flocks, and his flesh was torn and eaten raw by the queen’s fellow nymphs – priestesses wearing the masks of bitches, mares, or sows. Next, in amendment to this practice, the king died as soon as the power of the sun, with which he was identified, began to decline in the summer, and another young man, his twin, or supposed twin – a convenient ancient Irish term is ‘tanist’ – then became the queen’s lover, to be duly sacrificed at midwinter and, as a reward, reincarnated in an oracular serpent. These consorts acquired executive powers only when permitted to deputise for the queen by wearing her magical robes. Thus kingship developed, and though the sun became a symbol of male fertility once the king’s life had been identified with its seasonal course, it still remained under the queen’s tutelage, in theory at least, long after the matriarchal phase had been outgrown.

(…) There is, however, no evidence that, even when women were sovereign in religious matters, men were denied fields in which they might act without female supervision, though it may well be that they adopted many of the ‘weaker sex’ characteristics hitherto thought functionally peculiar to man. They could be trusted to hunt, fish, gather certain foods, mind flocks and herds, and help defend the tribal territory against intruders, so long as they did not transgress matriarchal law.

(…) When the shortness of the king’s reign proved irksome, it was agreed to prolong the thirteen-month year to a Great Year of 100 lunations, in the last of which occurs a near-coincidence of solar and lunar time. But since the fields and crops still needed to be fructified, the king agreed to suffer an annual mock death and yield his sovereignty for one day – the intercalated one, lying outside the sacred sidereal year – to the surrogate boy-king, or interrex, who died at its close, and whose blood was used for the sprinkling ceremony. Now the sacred king either reigned for the entire period of a Great Year, with a tanist as his lieutenant; or the two reigned for alternate years; or the queen let them divide the queendom into halves and reign concurrently. The king deputised for the queen at many sacred functions, dressed in her robes, wore false breast, borrowed her lunar axe as a symbol of power, and even took over from her the magical art of rain-making. His ritual death varied greatly in circumstance; he might be torn in pieces by wild women, transfixed with a sting-ray spear, felled with an axe, pricked in the heel with a poisoned arrow, flung over a cliff, burned to death on a pyre, drowned in a pool, or killed in a pre-arranged chariot crash. But die he must. A new stage was reached when animals came to be substituted for boys at the sacrificial altar, and the king refused death after his lengthened reign ended. Dividing the realm into three parts, and awarding one part to each of his successors, he would reign for another term; his excuse being that a closer approximation of solar and lunar time had now been found, namely nineteen years, or 325 lunations. The Great Year had become a Greater Year.
Links please - thank you :-)

transiten
29th September 2013, 19:50
Thankyou araucaria, was actually going to post about early matriarchal societies and the sacrifice of the King, interesting perspective to say the least...

CD7
29th September 2013, 19:52
(…) There is, however, no evidence that, even when women were sovereign in religious matters, men were denied fields in which they might act without female supervision, though it may well be that they adopted many of the ‘weaker sex’ characteristics hitherto thought functionally peculiar to man. They could be trusted to hunt, fish, gather certain foods, mind flocks and herds, and help defend the tribal territory against intruders, so long as they did not transgress matriarchal law.

(…) When the shortness of the king’s reign proved irksome, it was agreed to prolong the thirteen-month year to a Great Year of 100 lunations, in the last of which occurs a near-coincidence of solar and lunar time. But since the fields and crops still needed to be fructified, the king agreed to suffer an annual mock death and yield his sovereignty for one day – the intercalated one, lying outside the sacred sidereal year – to the surrogate boy-king, or interrex, who died at its close, and whose blood was used for the sprinkling ceremony. Now the sacred king either reigned for the entire period of a Great Year, with a tanist as his lieutenant; or the two reigned for alternate years; or the queen let them divide the queendom into halves and reign concurrently. The king deputised for the queen at many sacred functions, dressed in her robes, wore false breast, borrowed her lunar axe as a symbol of power, and even took over from her the magical art of rain-making. His ritual death varied greatly in circumstance; he might be torn in pieces by wild women, transfixed with a sting-ray spear, felled with an axe, pricked in the heel with a poisoned arrow, flung over a cliff, burned to death on a pyre, drowned in a pool, or killed in a pre-arranged chariot crash. But die he must. A new stage was reached when animals came to be substituted for boys at the sacrificial altar, and the king refused death after his lengthened reign ended. Dividing the realm into three parts, and awarding one part to each of his successors, he would reign for another term; his excuse being that a closer approximation of solar and lunar time had now been found, namely nineteen years, or 325 lunations. The Great Year had become a Greater Year.


Well actually no, none of this sounds familiar. I have never quite heard this version of gender roles flipped so much, lol

Just makes me think having the pendulum swing too far in any direction sounds dreadful!! Would love to see no expected roles from either side---NAKED no clothes! Makes me ponder the garden of eden and if this type of "nakedness" is related to the story in some way. Once the clothes went on did that then provide costumes for everyone to play a role?! Humm

araucaria
29th September 2013, 19:52
Links please - thank you :-)
Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, Author's Introduction
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=robert%20graves%20greek%20myths&sprefix=robert+graves+%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Arobert%20graves%20greek%20myths

Tesla_WTC_Solution
29th September 2013, 19:54
It was been tough transition for men. I was on the first edge of woman's lib and didn't "settle" for marriage to get out of my parents' house. Sure it was tough "fighting" the workplace system but worth it. I was not interested in being a house slave controlled by male dominance. Eventually I did marry but I thought everyday males were losers. They had lost any male enhancing tribal rituals generations ago, required unbelievable amounts of stroking and were just resting on their automatically assumed superiority.

Everything was changing. Men could no longer provide a one income family life that was the essence of their presumed superiority in our society. How could they assume they could rule "their" household when they couldn't even provide the money. Suddenly women could earn a living and didn't have to stay married to a lousy provider. If she was abused so the male could feel superior, she could dump him and the divorce rate skyrocketed. With advances in birth control, women could indulge in recreational sex the way men had been doing for years if they wanted to: love them and leave them. Over the next few generations, men were reduced to being sperm donors. That is a lot for men to absorb about their changing role and I think the adjustment has been harder for men as women changed.

Unfortunately, women adopted male tactics to get ahead in the male dominate business world rather than adding a female view to the decision-making process. Women learned to play hard ball and made sure they had better credentials than their male competitors. If women were competing for a job requiring a bachelor's degree, they made sure they had an MBA. Meanwhile men were bonding around the water cooler oblivious to what was happening. The best they could come up with was "she slept her way to the top or mid management."

Women with their newly minted MBAs quickly figured out that the GDP did not include child rearing activities so they heartlessly dumped kids at childcare facilities in pursuit of greed, power and equality with male superiority. The behavior, manners and values of the next generations shows the sad outcome of children raised by TV and cheap childcare. And women gave up their social service activities that men depended on to counterbalance corporate America's lack of concern about poverty, the environment, etc.

Although the myth of romantic love still exists with the young, neither men or women evaluate a relationship's capacity to nurture each other's higher ambitions. They don't think beyond their sexual organs and reproducing because it will be the most creative thing they will ever do.

I liked what my college roommate did. She and her husband both worked and had a plan. They lived on one income and banked the other for a house down payment. When they were ready, they bought a house and had a baby. Since they were use to living on one income, she could stay home, make her own organic baby food and raise their child with the values they had. She returned to her M.A. career later and is well known in her field despite the baby break. Of course they didn't have every new adult toy as soon as it was marketed. They knew how to delay gratification rather than buy into debt to satisfy their immediate needs. And of course they didn't go, Oh, woe is me" and seek every government "entitlement" meant to entrap people.

I think both sexes have a long way to go so they can establish a relationship that enhances both of their long term goals and not just their reproduction gratification. As it is now the parents have to hand off the child for visitation rights at local police stations because they can't be civil to each other for the sake of the child.

Men and women need to cooperate to get us over the hump of male dominated religions, wars and gross government budgets for the military industrial interests and once again value the family.

That was a really good post -- I know I didn't agree in my thread about personal problems, but you make a lot of sense here.
One of the things modern parents are dealing with, though, is inflation and the whole plethora of developmental trouble that's presenting in the kids.

Imagine coming to the realization that one is immoral, but also trying to teach a child that seems for all appearances ineducable.

It's so hard to break through to a child with ASD -- can you imagine the wishy washy average parents in USA trying to deal with the iron will of a troubled child who also has developmental delays?

it's hard to know how much the parents can change, and how much the society needs to make up for the deficit...

we are in a tough spot in the USA and it goes way beyond the gender wars... there are kids suffering even when the parents thought everything was oK

dianna
29th September 2013, 20:01
I agree with SamWise:



I also believe that men's and women's brains have been intentionally hampered with by Reptilians to purposely pit us against one another for thousands of years. To me it never made sense why so many hearts have been broken over egotistical and lame reasons by both men and women. Seems fishy to me.


Not sure if it is "reptilians" that have deliberately hampered with humanity -- but it seems some sort of program was introduced to divide the genders and snuff out the sacred feminine -- and this program went viral with the introduction of abrahamic religions --




When God Was A Woman -- We Owe Much Of Our Civilization To Female- Led Societies


Archaeological excavations have uncovered sculptures indicating widespread Goddess worship as long ago as 25,000 B.C. In what we call the cradle of civilization, the Goddess was worshipped as creator of the universe and all life.

In major cultures such as Sumer, Babylon and Canaan, women had sex with men of their own choosing. Since sex was associated with the worship of the Goddess, there was no split between pleasure, spirituality, motherhood and respect for women.

The earliest records show that women were held in high esteem. Property passed from mother to daughter, so it didn't matter who fathered the children.

Diodorus Siculus wrote in 49 B.C. that in Libya, the men stayed home and took care of the children while the women handled all public business. He also recorded an Egyptian law that said ``the wife shall enjoy authority over the husband, husbands agreeing in the marriage contract that they will be obedient in all things to their wives.''


Helen Belvin (letters, Dec. 2) disapproved of alternative family structures, saying, ``robbed of sexual standards, society will unravel like a ball of yarn.'' Since she mentioned a time span of 2,000 years, I assume she refers to the male-led Judeo-Christian family unit.



Far from ``unraveling like a ball of yarn,'' these cultures were the basis for our own civilization. They developed agriculture, architecture, engineering, astronomy, writing, ceramics, painting, domestication of animals, commerce, etc.

Most impressive, the earlier Goddess-worshipping cultures sustained themselves for long periods without war. At a site in Turkey, archaeologists went down 1,500 years without finding weapons or any evidence of conflict.

Civilization really began to ``unravel'' when the Indo-Europeans began their southward invasions around 2400 B.C. They brought with them their male tribal gods, their system of patrilineal descent and, most important, their philosophy of dominance.

They slaughtered, looted and raped their way through much of the Mediterranean region (you can read about some of this in the Book of Joshua), and we live with the results of these invasions today. The beatings, rapes and murders of thousands of women in the U.S. every year are attributable to the philosophy of patriarchal dominance and the Judeo-Christian idea of the ``true'' family.

Anyone who is interested in this subject should read ``When God Was A Woman'' by Merlin Stone, and ``The Chalice and the Blade'' and ``The Partnership Way'' by Riane Eisler.



Article here:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19901224&slug=1111207

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DCuZo0hjL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-62,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Read Merlin Stone's Book here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/147907317/When-God-Was-a-Woman-Merlin-Stone

Tesla_WTC_Solution
29th September 2013, 20:08
Bill Ryan : Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --
•they don't start wars;
•they don't sadistically torture;
•they don't sexually abuse children;
•they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
•they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.
Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.Bill, is this honestly your opinion ?


Yes -- with the caveat (as I said) "as a rule". For non-English-speakers, that means "usually".

Also to Tesla: I know one can always find women who are cruel, mean, scheming, sociopathic and violent. (Jagman's story (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63831-The-male-abuse-of-women&p=736545&viewfull=1#post736545) -- wow.) And I have met and am privileged to know some most remarkably wonderful, gentle, kind and wise men.

I'm talking about the shape of the world and the trajectory of its history.

As best I know:


No women were among those who crucified Christ.
No women took part in the burning of the Cathars in the Albigensian Crusades.
No women were among those who betrayed Atahualpa and destroyed the Inca civilization.
No women were among the Aztec priests who cut out the hearts of live virgins.
No women took part in the Massacre at Wounded Knee.
No women condemned millions of people to death in Stalin's Gulags.
No women gassed, shot, raped, starved or tortured millions of Jews in the Nazi death camps.
Few women work in the factory ships that wantonly kill huge whales despite their being seriously endangered.
Few women take part in the annual culling of dolphins and seals in Norway and Canada.
Few women are the CEOs of major corporations that are trashing the planet and its resources.
Few women took part in the macho wholesale big game hunting massacre of the African wildlife in the 19th century.
No women are among the elite controllers of the world. (Hilary Clinton is an underling.)
Anyone reading this could generate hundreds more examples.


Now now, Bill! LOL.

I have an example, yes some will say the exception to the rule or whatnot, but here it is:

When General Terrance Hildner passed away allegedly in his sleep last year or the year prior, I looked him up.
I saw that he had presided over the response to Hurricane Katrina and also Abu Ghraib. If you recall, one of the torturers at AG was a woman. She became very famous for taking pictures of prisoners in desperate situations, and she thought it was all fun and games.

Anyhow, about Hildner. I had seen in my thoughts before he passed away that something would happen -- the name I had was "Hilter". But it turns out that it was Hildner who later died and was important in our timeline.

The family history on Gen Hildner said he told the military he was from one town and he was actually a native of New Haven.
I looked up the name in the context of the Nazi SS.

I found an entry on a female SS member: Ruth Elfreide Hildner.
She was an immensely cruel and exuberant torturer, and favored killing prisoners with a baton.
Literally she was fond of beating people to death with a stick.

I could hardly believe that, yet at the same time, realized, there are other women out there who struggle with the need to be violent.
But Hitler gave these sick people the ability to act out on the less fortunate, just like General Hildner must have known that his own troops were doing the same.

It's a very difficult discussion, of who is to blame for this -- what some people tell me is to just try to get over it all and move forward on a better path.
One could wander the bloody trails of history forever looking for someone to blame.

I agree that social action is necessary when dealing with systematic abuse such as is found in the USA and other male dominated countries.
But one of the areas in which women themselves need empowerment is in NOT acting like the other abusers. that the appropriate response to pain is mercy and not disgust.

Those who are disgusted with themselves and can't come to grips with that will always abuse others.

p.s. I am dealing with some legal trouble as some of you know, and wanted to point out, during that last interaction with the police, it was a female officer who injured me.

She pulled me out of a car by the chain of the cuffs instead of touching my arms.
She was disgusted by me to the point where pulling the chain seemed more appropriate to her. I mean, would you pull a patient by the IV? Then why jerk a prisoner by the chain?

Also in 2011, a female officer saw what was going on when the people at her precinct denied water for hours and hours while a crazy veteran was being held at their station... she didn't intervene.... where is the nurturing instinct there exactly?

I told the later woman officer that her behavior had been crafted to impress her coworkers, and the truth is, they weren't

Christine
29th September 2013, 20:12
Thank you dear Camilo... and so it shall be. I will take your heart's cry further.

STOP ALL VIOLENCE AGAINST SACRED LIFE NOW -THE DIVINE FEMININE IS THE INCARNATED SPIRIT, WHEN WE COMMIT VIOLENCE AGAINST HER WE ARE COMMITTING DEGRADATION OF OUR SELF. MAY THE AWAKENING WORLD SEE THIS TRUTH.


Our Most Important Mission Ever: Stop Violence Against Women Now

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 20:13
Ok So can we try something ?

Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Identifying the problems is key to finding solutions.

SO far we have number ..

1 : No more circumcisions ( id agree with that one , ouch :madgrin: ) tip of the ice berg .. priceless: 0 )

keep them coming

N


Accept strong women, don’t try to change them into something they are not.
Know that if we have different opinions, it doesn’t make yours wrong. They’re just different.
Be as supportive of us as we are for you.
Life is not a competition.


Note: I know not all men fit the above. In fact, I'm encourage since I've come to Avalon. There are many open-minded, supportive men and women.

I hear you on this Paula but can i pick on you here , i hate this to be you but is this not a relationship issue ? its not nessesarily an equality issue imo. I mean you could reverse the angle and be talking about a reversal of sexes here.

What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.

In terms of your situation however , which is important to address, can i offer some advise and i speak from experience. Anyone can get a " dud " when they pick a partner, male or female ... the problem is we think they will change and because we have invested time and effort we stick around till the defective model has a malfunction and we put up with it for whatever reason.

The advise i give to you is this .. The moment you notice abnormal behaviour , get out and leave. If you stick around you are asking for trouble. There are plenty of awesome people in the world to date so move on sonner rather than later. This is for everybody .. dont suffer in a dead end relationship ! AND dont have kids with a defective model. Ladies in particular you should be very careful and vet the potential sperm doner , you are going to have that child you are stuck with him forever.

MAKE wise decisions.

N


Ladies , can you each make a short list , lets say 3 things , you would like to see change that is not already in process.

Hi Nanoo Nanoo,

This is what you asked: you would like to see change that is not already in process.. From my perspective, you’ve demonstrated some of my points. And I understand it is your perspective. Which just made a case for another on my list.

After my post, I went to bed and thought more. It’s a list that fits both men and women. Which brings me to your point that mine is about relationships. To that I say, yes and no. My list is for BOTH a relationship and world perspective. And aren’t relationships what life is all about? Between two, between many? We don’t need different sets of rules. We getting the heck of Dodge, I mean duality. ‘Keep it simple’, is what works for me.

If the advice you gave on relationships was for me specifically then I’d say: nope, not even close. The advice you gave was for the Paula 35+ years ago. Which is why often I add dates. It is my hope when I share these personal slices of life, that people are encouraged to make change for themselves. One CAN rise out of beaten down emotionally, physically, and/or financially. One gleans knowledge through experience, takes action sooner than later, which transforms into greater knowledge, wisdom and love of self. And comes to rest and KNOW, “Never again.” One last point here. I've got enough life under my belt that I'd add, the experience, knowledge, wisdom and love grows exponentially.

When you say, “No, not, this. Yes that,” means am I willing to put forth the time and energy to see if any make the “Top 10 Nanoo Nanoo list?” No. That’s a game I’ve alway walked way from. From one perspective, that’s an example of competition and not cooperation. Which is one from my list. To me, this is the brainstorm stage. Everyone comes up with solutions. We list, lists, list, without monitor filters.

Not directed at you here: Folks with life experience, street wise savvy, or creativity, or intelligent often see things from the greater perspective. That’s why many test poorly on standardized tests. The makers of the test with tunnel vision want parrot answers. Shiver.

Here’s another for my list: Willingness for all to see from the greater perspective.

Peace,
Paula :wave:

Hey Paula ,

I somehow knew when i wrote what i did that it was risky.. You of all people i would never want to offend and i feel maybe i have. Please forgive my inadequate ability to express ideas the way i hear them and feel them.. its a work in progress for me and i thank you for your patience.

before what im trying to do goes into the bin please know im trying to get a result because i desperately want to help change. I know i dont speak for all however i know some will benefit from being able to read a simplified sentence that they can remember and then use it to effect their behaviour. There is no one size fits all answer , however i believe this will help some " Get It "

I believe , please correct me if i am wrong , but from what i know of men is in order to effect change we need to get right to the core of the issue and then extract a line of code that encapsulates it. This line of code can then be used to monitor or change negative behavour patterns. If the line of code is too long or complex to remember it wont be as effective or as easy to recall...

And what i present is not a game , its nessesary for us to understand needs to define them first. What i am trying to do is give some semblence of organisation and then present a result. A result thats effective is a basic bullet point list that is easy to read and digest, no , thats not the answer for all but for some it is .. for some they just want something simplified in order to get it , to digest it ,and recall it when its nessesary.

It is obvious and i say this generally when we talk of our past dilemmas and heart aches it brings up un resolved emotions .. whats the most important thing i can impart is tolet those emotions go because they do not serve us any more. Forgiveness is the key here , Courage is the key here

what i hope is that we resolve man speak and woman speak need to have their own identities and then some basic translations without wanting to convert one to the other but rather present language thats easy tothe one to understand.

N

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 20:27
What we need to cover are specific instances of how MEN have blocked Women from being equal.


Well welcome to the world and its base of operations!!! If we also think about it....a womens role is somewhat set up to view man in similar way we are conditioned to view GOD. Put your trust in him, relinquish your own power, and he will provide. You are to serve him and he is to be your lifelong caretaker. Its quite the pattern we have throughout our globe. Relinquishing of one's power over to another. Never really being CULTIVATED to be our own sovereign individual with the power to create AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE OUR OWN CAR FIRST before you add another individual in to drive ALONG WITH YOU

Have to tell you... I just read a news article some minister in the Saudi government announced that driving cars damages a women's vulva and reproductive organs...

Hmmm, you'd expect the same thing would happen to a mans prostate and nuts in that case eh, what an idiot, or maybe he carry's his a round in a small backpack to prevent sitting on it.

rotflinpainloling ! genius :0)

N

AutumnW
29th September 2013, 20:30
When I think of my mother, who died a few years back, I remember a very gentle, hugely tolerant, loving person. Like many women her age, she was ultra-submissive and didn't interfere with my father's treatment of his children when she should have.

I still have problems trying to reconcile both sides of her nature--the one who took care of us and loved us and the one who betrayed us, because my father's word was law. It really is enough to drive you a bit crazy. I have often found myself asking the question in my mind, "Who WERE you?" Which one was you? She had so much power and she didn't use it. Talk about conditioned responses. It's like both of my parents had a human side and a social robot side that was reflexive, unthinking, unquestioning.

For all of our flaws, baby boomers did manage to smash the social order by questioning dominant myths. In so doing we have become more ourselves and more truly human. I honestly think that if the sexual revolution and other types of political awakening hadn't occurred, we would have become more and more hive minded or hive mindless. The movie, The Stepford Wives, would be seen as a film about libertarianism, by comparison.

The very fact that this discussion is taking place at all is because the first steps have been taken to dismantle the 'patriarchy'. May it continue with patience, mercy and love.

Nanoo Nanoo
29th September 2013, 20:42
Quote from Christine.


All I could say, that if a male became a female right now IS THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD REALLY GET IT...
And ill say im sure this goes for women as well!! Overall in my view, its a gender conditioning over a life that effects BOTH SIDES


umKMUH-_K7E

The conditioning............ odd isn't it, I know this is about male abuse but......17 years ago I cleaned my act up, I was very much a dope addict and checked myself in in a clinic voluntarily for 15 months.....there I witnessed that the root of addiction comes from conditioning by upbringing, experiencing lack....of affection, understanding, love.....experiencing abuse, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual.. there I witnessed first hand that both genders handled this differently, man could turn to self destructive aggression and make a mess of things in a very obvious way, women however who got taught not to fight and be violent had a totally different strategy but no less violent in nature...... tears..........and sexual manipulation........ very cruel and very much a powerful weapon and also very hardcore abusive.....and pre programmed by many many mothers into their daughters, I don't know where to take this from here on....... but I thought that observation at least deserved to be pointed out as well................in any case, different strategies can give pretty much the same results, f@cked up people who assign blame to each other, until they see it for what it really is/was, hmm,
complicated subject eh. Hope I didn't drift to far off topic with the above.

BTW, there is a chapter in "quite weapons for silent wars" that deals with this subject, a must read.

thank you for this one : 0 )

in the games of self defence , martial arts and boxing an analogy can be made

the martial arts used no hand protection during training so that the hands or head would show superficial damages immediately , these can be healed as they are apparent..

in the boxing world they bandage your head and hands to stop superficial damage but on a long enough time line masking superficial damages become deep seeded ones with no cure ..

N

Anchor
29th September 2013, 20:47
i need to get out more

N

I believe your post and so I say to you: no you really don't need to get out more.

Trust me, you are truly fortunate not to have seen this side of things.

It is a sobering thought is it not, that thread has at its focus a kind of abuse that is in ADDITION to all the other combinations and forms of abuse our species perpetrates :(

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 20:49
I somehow knew when i wrote what i did that it was risky.. You of all people i would never want to offend and i feel maybe i have. Please forgive my inadequate ability to express ideas the way i hear them and feel them.. its a work in progress for me and i thank you for your patience.
Nanoo Nanoo, firstly, you are a sweetie pie and secondly, you are a sweetie pie. I am honored that you had enough trust to reach out. The same goes for me, I’m still walkin’ the journey, and you lend to my ever changing faith in humanity.


And what i present is not a game , its nessesary for us to understand needs to define them first. What i am trying to do is give some semblence of organisation and then present a result. A result thats effective is a basic bullet point list that is easy to read and digest, no , thats not the answer for all but for some it is .. for some they just want something simplified in order to get it , to digest it ,and recall it when its nessesary.

Yes, lists and visuals are helpful for me. Quick, concise reads. It was late last evening and I plain ran out of gas and ideas. But I really wanted to help you with your suggestions. Though, I’d still add what I did.

In some cases, people need to digest a bit longer before they are ready to begin solution phase. I say that as a reminder to myself as well. My way to problem solve is jump in and trial and error and then tweak. While others have the ability to see it all out and then skip over the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd drafts.

So in closing, NN, ever doubt that I absolutely know you are of honorable intentions and care for All. In fact, I ordered a medal to hang around your neck, but they shipped an extra large. Not that you couldn’t lift it of course, but you’d be tripping all over the place with the extra long ribbon. Seems they took me literally about how big a heart you have.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Naniu_zps5c15a90b.jpg

Love,
Paula :wave:

Agape
29th September 2013, 20:55
In the traditional method, done at 7 days after birth by a rabbi, with no anesthetic or other concern, we are talking about a damage level that is as a psychotic break, in the core of the avatar vehicle, wich turns it sideways,and away from confrontation with the damage to the core self.

We are talking about a broken animal of sexual orientation and damage, which rides in the formation of the unconsciousness of the vehicle/avatar, which screws up and changes the neural formation and path of the unfolding/creation of the mind.

The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

We simply don't recognize what it is we are looking at.



I don't have personal experience with what you're trying to imply here Carmody, I know you for wiser opinions .
The way you describe male circumcision here sounds more like talking of castration which it isn't ,
medically and psychologically, yes I suppose there is minor trauma induced in the new born to do with his private parts but there's no 'cutting off his individual enlightenment ' .

It seems to be so traditional custom in Jewish and Islamic families ( not sure about the later and how far this extends ) and by their faith they simply would strongly disagree on the opinion above as out of reality statement .

I'm personally, against all forms of body mutilations but vs the above, on my ways around India especially I met plenty of Israeli youngsters , to my great surprise they are not ashamed to open this topic and they're mostly proud of the tradition .
Likewise , they're proud of their religious background and many are on their way to 'enlightenment ' , perhaps more than any other group of their age .
They tend to be 'spiritual people' in general, both boys and girls , even if they're not exactly 'religious' , they still seem to inherit something of their deeply enspirited ancestry .

Unless I've travelled, met people, heard countless experiences from their own mouth , I'd automatically agree with you .


The other part of the story ..and that's more prominent when you visit some of those 3rd world countries .. is untamed, uncontrollable , impulsive sexuality on human males that underlines every violence,
you might have noticed recent cases of rapes surfacing in news, from India, surfacing because what's get to the news now is a poor tip of an iceberg .

So I don't know what to tell you but every woman who has found herself on the wrong receiving end and had to control and tame her own reactions then and long after, watching these animals with instincts , forgive me,
would think of a method how to create 'human being' , being with dignity, love and intelligence instead what many are getting out there .


If you live in very controlled, sterile society for most of your life, civilised to big deal, you may miss my point but there are millions people out there who can't control their aggression, their sexuality, their hunger .
Animal instincts .


:lie:

778 neighbour of some guy
29th September 2013, 22:01
23025

In the picture is my mother sitting next to me, the strongest woman I know on this planet, what it is that makes her strong has been ability to adapt for better or for worse, I don't have a single picture with my fathers face on it, only his legs, on every picture I have of this man he has his face turned away from the camera.

Anyway, this woman got pregnant at 16, was forced into marriage at 17, when I was 5 she left me alone at home when I came out of school ( I was and still am VERY responsible and can handle myself), this was because she chose to study social sciences and provide and income for me although she was very much aware of the implications for me being all by myself but she trusted me and I trusted her.

She divorced my father when I was 5, a depressed alcoholic who's life I f@cked up just by being born, as it so happened this feller also went to the same University to study social sciences as my mother did, this was in the mid 70ties ( I am from '71),
anywho, women's lib was a hot item in those days and my mother drowned herself in that to get a handle on things as a single mom, fighting for an equal chance for her and me.

Now the seed donor ( this father chap) without any self respect or self esteem on a continuous guilt trip ( he still does, just stopped drinking, now on anti depressants or as I call them, a prescribed buzz) decided to lose his balls and went along screaming for women's lib harder then the women themselves, started wearing make up ended up sexually confused and tried to pass this along to me, me not understanding why said no thank you sir, what the f are you trying to pull off here?

To make a long story short, this neutered spineless chap who decided to make all men pay for what they apparently did wrong got rejected by all the women he met, dated and or had relationships with, let himself get yelled at, walk out the room when my stepmother was angry at him, didn't even slam a door in anger even once, just let his head hang down, be submissive and take all the blame because I deserve it, now that's the example I had as a role model, screw that dude, he deserved better and so did I.

Well now, fortunately my mother had fallen in love with the complete opposite of my seed donor, a Harley riding, former professional soldier turned bus driver, with cash in the bank and who owned his own house, he was also 10 years younger then my mom ( she was a real hottie), this man has been a better role model then my biological father, this man could talk, he could listen, he didn't judge, accepted me as his own, taught me how to fix a car and fill out my tax forms, how to shave and how treat the ladies with respect, get my friggin @ss out of bet even when had a party the night before, work is work young sir lazy d!ckhead, rise and shine sonny boy, now you would expect that should have balanced out nicely don't you, but no, at time it didn't, I was very confused about my identity for a long time and from an early age on, where do my loyalties lie, father mother, stepfather/mother, all great people to be honest, could have been much much worse.

This confusion was the main reason I started to do dope, first stole the weed of my stepmom ( complaining social worker hippie)at age 14 and was stoned from then on, do want to know anything and don't want see anything, I am done for, f@ck it, f@ck it all, he (my father) knew, did not step up the plate, just hid behind his intellectual newspaper and a 7 meter long bookshelve and silence, deadly silence, even when I started selling dope he didn't say sh!t, I threw piles of cash on the coffeetable and equally high piles of weed/ speed and xtc later on, he dropped his newspaper two inches, looked a bit annoyed lifted up the newspaper and continued reading, what I wanted was some attention form this fellow MAN, a whack on the head and screaming to get the f@ck out of his house, nope, zilch, zero, zippo, nada, rien, nothing, that's it, no spine, no backbone, no interest, he didn't know how to handle his own kid looking for guidance.

I'm stuck in this story now, mst think how to continue this post if at all, but anyway, thanks to example of my stepdad I did pick up on a few things, that settled in much much later btw, but I can say I have seen both perspectives of being a man, I also have seen a man turn into a woman or at least what was his perspective of being an emancipated man, I say no thank you very much, not me, not like that.

Perhaps I'll find a better way to put this into words, perhaps not, hope you get my perspective on this subject now, I see men and women as equals not alike, but equals, the road could have been a bit less bumpy though, sigh, humans can be such weird silly dumbcunts.

Sorry for the blabber and gibberish, didn't see this discussion coming at all, interesting though.

O yeah, almost forgot, thanks mom, for screwing me up the way you did and the ways you didnt;) love you:first:

turiya
29th September 2013, 22:28
Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

And then, the next thing is for mothers to stop having a Cesarian Sections performed during childbirth... Talking about the damage done... this is also something to also consider...

Bartzis on the harm done by the medical system performing a Cesarian Section:


http://www.radiociresarii.ro/uploads/temp/red%20play_1.jpg (http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=67026)

turiya :cool:

RunningDeer
29th September 2013, 23:50
turiya :cool:

Wow, turiya. 30 seconds into this...rushing to get back. For those with no plug-in [click here (http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/Turiya_Files_/ANDREW_BARTZIS/The_Galactic_History_Show_26_27July2013_Excerpt_Ce sarean_Birth.mp3)]

turiya
29th September 2013, 23:53
turiya :cool:

Wow, turiya. 30 seconds into this...rushing to get back. For those with no plug-in [click here (http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/Turiya_Files_/ANDREW_BARTZIS/The_Galactic_History_Show_26_27July2013_Excerpt_Ce sarean_Birth.mp3)]

Complete Interview (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walking-in-energy/2013/07/25/the-galactic-history-show-2526-july-2013)

turiya :cool:

Christine
30th September 2013, 02:57
Dear Nickolai,

I thought since you said you were perplexed as to why we are discussing this on the forum I would try to enumerate the reasons as I understand them. First I would say that the division of male/ female is one of the primary divisions on the planet. My remembering tells me that we, as Spirits, were not always so divided. In fact I believe there were times on this earth that conception wasn't a matter of sexual intercourse but a manifestation of Spiritual intercourse or communion. But lets leave that aside for another thread.

So as we are reaching for our (r)evolutionary keys we need to understand how this division of female/ male has affected us in the past and how it affects us still today. There is something very deep in this that alludes us still, in my opinion it merits our most discerning and penetrating attention.

Just look around you in our world. We are sexual, some of us wear the body of a man and some the body of a woman. This is undeniable and if we take even a cursory look it is obvious that this fact indeed has led to aberrant behavior in male and female alike. It is, I believe, imperative that we learn from each other and find an equality and balance, built on respect and comprehension.

The damage that has been done through abuse of sexual energy is immense and underlies just about every other degradation we have suffered.

We must remember, study, and analyze how this separation has affected us as Spiritual beings. And in this understanding reintegrate our two halves to a harmonious whole. It isn't enough to simply say we've come a long way, we certainly as a humanity haven't come far enough.

We need to see how far the pendulum has swung in both directions and remember this into the fabric our our beings so as to not have to repeat this pattern over and over again. To me this is the most important discussion for if we reveal to ourselves how and why this came about we will have unlocked one of the most guarded doors.

We should be able to keep the dynamic of energy exchange in perpetual movement within our own body. This is only possible when we are fully aware and integrated. While we continue to battle between the sexes this will not be possible.

So from your "silliest thing to discuss" I come from the other side of the pendulum swing to say "this one of the most important things" to discuss. And both of us agree that we are searching for the important answers to our evolution and movement to understanding what BEing one is and finding Peace that endures.

Christine



Nickolai, it seems that Russia has something to teach us. The hell with sexual differences.

(shut, whispering: but deep down, Nickolai, would you say that there is all kinds of misconceptions and préjudices on both sides, but stronger against women?)

Dearest Flashie...)))


Honestly, I do not think so. Not here at least. Not in my reality. Here we are equal (And again: In my reality!).
And honestly I care not what they talk about.
Here I know women who have made their way up just working with their bodies. When up there, they do their best to belittle men...))
Not a rule, but, oh, so very often.
BUt then again, Russia is different. We have made a huge way from 80's to now. Russian women could be different from others. Who knows...))

Still, I think it is a silliest thing to discuss. Especially keeping in mind what is being discussed on the forum: the human evolution, evolving, being as one, love, peace.
Where does it come from. Really, I am perplexed..

Atlas
30th September 2013, 03:33
Have to tell you... I just read a news article some minister in the Saudi government announced that driving cars damages a women's ovaries and reproductive organs...

Hmmm, you'd expect the same thing would happen to a mans prostate and nuts in that case eh, what an idiot, or maybe he carry's his a round in a small backpack to prevent sitting on it.
Reuters earlier wrongly identified him as Sheikh Saleh bin Mohammed al-Lohaidan, a member of the Senior Council of Scholars, one of the top religious bodies in the birthplace of Islam.

By contrast, Sheikh Saleh bin Saad al-Lohaidan, the person quoted in the sabq.org report, is a judicial adviser to an association of Gulf psychologists. His comments reflect the extent of opposition to women driving among some conservatives in Saudi Arabia.

“If a woman drives a car, not out of pure necessity, that could have negative physiological impacts as functional and physiological medical studies show that it automatically affects the ovaries and pushes the pelvis upwards,” he told Sabq.

Sheikh Abdulatif Al al-Sheikh, the head of the morality police, told Reuters a week ago that there was no text in the documents making up sharia, or Islamic law, that barred women from driving. - Source (http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/2013/09/29/saudi-cleric-says-women-who-drive-risk-damaging-their-ovaries)

Mike Gorman
30th September 2013, 03:36
I'm puzzled in this thread by the idea that mothers need to stop getting their sons circumsised....circumcision was a woman's idea and is perpetrated by women , and it is entirely up to the mother, if her son is circumcised? I had no idea that men had been so excluded from the entire germination of the idea and that fathers had no voice in this ritual for their sons.

Has it always been entirely the mothers decision? Why? What is the rationale there?

Hi Minkton,
I am not sure if you are referring to a particular culture regarding the 'authority' to decide on male circumcision-or the Western world in general? For western societies Circumcision is normally a combined parental choice, both the Mother & Father discuss and decide. Personally I think it is tantamount to mutilation, there is no genuine benefit to the procedure, but the choice is there.

araucaria
30th September 2013, 06:32
Well actually no, none of this sounds familiar.
OK, let me tell you what sounds familiar to me in all of this.

Queens greedily devouring boys to mark lunar cycles sounds exactly like Arizona Wilder’s description to David Icke of goings-on at Windsor Castle. Matriarchy not dead? The deity in those days was the Triple Moon Goddess (in her triple aspect: waxing, full, waning moon). I’ll come back to this. Notice in passing how the importance of the number 13 comes from the lunar year of 13 months (364 days).

The change from sacrificing boys to animals is documented in the Old Testament in the story of Abraham substituting a ram for Isaac on instructions from Yahweh. Yahweh often gets a bad press, but this sounds like progress. And Christianity, which also often gets a bad press, offers what sounds like further progress with Jesus offering himself symbolically in the form of bread and wine. To criticize this as a late form of cannibalism is to look backwards in time. The forward-looking view sees it as an improvement, although we now need to apply this same process of purification to the notion of sacrifice itself.

In Greece, the sacrifice would have been a bull, or maybe the difference is of time rather than place: different ages (Taurus followed by Aries: the mythical Jesus in the new age of Pisces would sacrifice fish). Rams and bulls were supplementary to requirements: a typical flock or herd would consist of females and their young; adult males being needed only in small numbers (even less when their contribution to the reproductive cycle was not understood). Nowadays we have herds of bullocks by castrating the males. Alternatively we have countries where bulls are allowed to live: until they reach the bullring, that is. Bullfighting at least shows respect for the animal’s physical integrity.

There has been talk on this thread about circumcision. This may have been originally a form of symbolic castration. Possibly the rise of the male was accompanied by an increase in testosterone levels, which have reached such unacceptable proportions today that we read posts here calling for a cull of the alpha males. Back then, the phallus was the only weapon men had to get a foothold on life, and the cult of the obelisk continues to provide evidence that the macho society is very much living in the past.

13, Apollo, Moon, obelisk: Apollo 13, the triangle on top of the Saturn V obelisk, marked the failed meeting of the sun god and the moon goddess. On the symbolic level, this is the true story of the moon adventure, and understandably many people see the ‘successful’ missions as being necessarily a hoax.

The top god in the new patriarchy was Zeus, Jupiter in Latin, also called Jove. You see the link to Jehovah/Yahweh). Zeus and his thunderbolts was possibly a Velikovskian age of Jupiter, but in any case not a sun god, presumably because the next biggest deity in the night sky after the moon goddess. The sun god of daylight was Phoebus Apollo.

The modern God, Deus, is likely a conflation of Zeus and Apollo. He has still not resolved his differences with the divine feminine, or, to put it another way, got over the trauma of earlier times. He has inherited from the male priesthood serving the queenship vicariously, while dressed in feminine robes. The pope is the Vicar of Christ and I would suggest that his unreasonable refusal to accept women priests is only explicable if we see this role being played by male priestesses.

I have mentioned elsewhere how the Reformation was over the role of women, the Catholic cult of the Virgin Mary, against Puritanism and its outright rejection of the divine feminine. The Virgin Mary is itself a puritan version of the divine feminine, of which the Mary Magdalen angle would be the full-blown version. See below:


There is a little more to the Mary Magdalen story than this smear campaign. It involves the identifying of her too with a mythical figure, namely what Robert Graves calls the Triple Goddess or the White Goddess, and which the poet Ted Hughes applies to a sizeable chunk of Shakespeare in Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being. This is a lengthy explanation whose thesis is that Shakespeare was using the theatre as a ploy to expose his Catholic views at a time when Puritanism was persecuting Catholics. Simplifying outrageously, the eternal feminine (the Goddess of Complete Being), he says, was the major battleground at this time, espoused by Catholicism and rejected by Puritanism. She comprises at once the mother figure, the pure bride and the whore (representing her sexuality), which are not separable without leading to tragedy. Several plays explore different failures to reconcile these aspects of woman. For example, Othello, who loves his loving wife, kills the whore; or Hamlet, whose hesitation is because killing the whore also means killing his mother, while facing this dilemma collapses his relationship with his chaste bride Ophelia, whom he packs off to a nunnery; you get the picture.

From this perspective, misogynistic Pauline Christianity corresponds to Puritanism and counterintuitively Catholicism would be its heretical offshoot – the main difference being the acknowledged importance of women, with the emphasis on Mary the mother, Mary Magdalen the bride and sexual partner. It is somewhat ironic that the Catholic Church is criticized today for manifestly not doing enough for women. And back in the Elizabethan era, at a time when people were getting hanged, drawn and quartered for this major difference of opinion, Shakespeare was a whistle-blower and spiritual guide of the first order, using the fiction of the theatre to speak some unsavory truths.

This myth is often to be found in modern fiction as well. In French, Mary Magdalen is Marie Madeleine. Thus in Proust’s In Search of Lost Time, she is a central mythical figure, not only for the famous madeleine cake and tea episode and its discreet connection with the narrator’s mother, but also the connection with his lover, alternating chasteness and promiscuity and stirring love and jealousy. This is also the theme of James Joyce’s Ulysses, whose hero, Leopold Bloom, copes rather better with the sometimes unfaithful goddess figure he is married to. And the theme can be traced through The Arabian Nights in which the wife is fighting for her life all the way back to The Odyssey, in which the man is fighting for his wife.

So there was a whole lot going on long before Dan Brown came on the scene to popularize the story. We need to see the power of myth not simply as a way of spreading disinformation about real individuals but also as the universal relevance given to universal issues. Learning the truth about Mary Magdalen can help remove the smears to the individual; it can also help us deal with this endless issue of male violence due to (over)possessiveness, incomprehension and ultimately fear of the fair sex.

gripreaper
30th September 2013, 06:37
At the very core, we are learning to generate our own energy, or we are vamping it from others. In the paradigm of scarcity, we are taught that we must exploit in order to survive, that we are lacking that which we need. All energy is sexual, and is defined in degrees of amplification. In relationship, we choose someone who can complete us and has the energy signature we lack. In corporations, we exploit others for the good of the company, which has no soul in itself and is set up to survive and thrive at all costs.

So, the context, the lens through which we perceive our reality has to change. The old paradigm of scarcity, where energy must be vamped outside of ourselves, must change into the new paradigm of abundance, where we generate that energy within and emanate it outward and manifest in wholeness.

The universal energy is absolutely abundant, and we can manifest from the void anything we can dream, provided we are inner directed and we learn how to generate, amplify, focus, and emanate our own energy into the void of all that is, and in turn, create the new paradigm full well knowing that we are creator beings.

How this will shift, will undoubtedly come from the release of the Tesla energy technology, when we realize that energy is abundant and comes straight from the earth and transmits wireless throughout all manifestation. Then, we will recognize the abundance and will lose the need to exploit others to feed our own lack.

As we allow this energy to amplify within, we will be forced to face all of our own demons, our shadow selves, and all the beliefs we have built up around our energetic blocks in order to function within the paradigm of scarcity. This will undoubtedly destroy everything you were ever taught, everything you ever believed to be true. This is known as "the dark night of the soul". You will go through it alone, and when you are done, there will be nothing left but you yourself, your very essence. All of the things you "think" you are will fall away.

It is so worth it, to tear it all down. When you do, your twin souls and your twin flame will return as you emerge into the new paradigm of abundance. Lets do this.

onawah
30th September 2013, 07:36
I was just reading an article recently by John Van Auken of A.R.E. here:
http://www.johnvanauken.com/atlantismu.htm
He is a big proponent of Edgar Cayce, of course, and most of his writing is based on Cayce's readings.
I don't think Cayce was infallible or that his readings were necessarily perfectly accurate or complete by any means.
But something in the article about the evolution of humanity from very ancient times (Mu, Lemuria, Atlantis ) and up to the present struck a chord; I have seen similar ideas expressed by other channelers, ie that humanity originally were higher dimensional, androgynous beings who became gradually entrapped in lower frequencies and more engrossed in matter.
That our increasing polarity resulted in, among other things, the division into male and female.
And that as we spiral back upwards again now after these thousands of years of experiencing and learning in the lower dimensions, we will be evolving into something entirely new.

Here are some excerpts from the article:


In those times the goal was to raise the consciousnesses, desires, and energies of the sons of man upward to the higher awarenesses, purposes, and energies of the sons of God, and eventually back into the Oneness of the formless realms of life and the cosmos. It didn't happen. The higher vibes and awarenesses of the sons of God began to descend further into physical matter and sensual experience.


3rd. Atlantis: Eden of the World, Male & Female, and the Five Races
About 210,000 B.C., many souls began a fresh incarnation in legendary Atlantis, a continent in the Atlantic Ocean. Mu was now many islands scattered throughout the Pacific Ocean, and though some temples were still providing help, the age of Mu was ebbing. It had gone on for an amazingly long time, nearly 12 million years, but by 50,700 B.C., it would be only a legend, a myth. Atlantis was the new hot spot for dynamic life, transformation, and new hope. The incarnations in Atlantis would be purely second root-race bodies; no mixed animal forms. The Children of One and the Children of Darkness both began to use these bodies. These bodies were androgynous, hermaphroditic, having both sexes in one; as do many plants, some animals, and the mythological Hermaphroditus, the bisexual child of Hermes and Aphrodite. Therefore, godlings, good and bad, could conceive new bodies within themselves, attracting fellow souls to inhabit them, often from their soul group. Even though these bodies were androgynous, souls tended to accentuated one sexual aspect, and feminine was the predominant aspect during the early periods in Earth. It was an age of feminine rule. All the major leaders were predominantly feminine in their expression. Although Ouowu, Io, and Lala-mu were predominantly feminine, they had male energies as well. Because of this they could conceive within themselves; no coupling with another body was required. To build their communities, they would often conceive new bodies, gestate them in the wombs of their minds, and then bring them forth into the form world to be inhabited by souls coming out of the unseen realms of formless life. But Atlantis would be a new era, one in which many amazing changes would bring about better conditions for all; at least that was the intention. Sexual unity may appear to be a good thing, but this world was a lonely place for souls in separate, individual bodies. The oneness and community that was always present in the boundless dimensions of mind and spirit were difficult to experience in the world. Each mind was isolated in a separate body. But that was about to change.


According to the Akasha, Eden, that garden with God, first occurred around 106,000 B.C. in a paradisiacal portion of Atlantis called Poseidia (possibly identified with Poseidon, the Greek mythological god of the sea; the Romans called this god Neptune).
According to the Akasha, it wasn't until about 12,000 B.C. that the Eden spoken of in the Bible was created, between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers with Adam, Eve, and the troublesome serpent. The Eden of Atlantis was as important as the Bible's. In this first Eden the Logos of God incarnated among the Children of God to help all the godlings find their way out of matter and selfishness. The Logos is the essential mind or consciousness of God individualized in order to be among individualized beings. The disciple John in the first verses of his Gospel refers to the Logos as "The Word" that became flesh and dwelt among us. This was a momentous entry into matter, into the world of form. The infinite was now among the finite, the universal among the individualized. The One had come among the Many in a form that they could relate to and learn from.

Upon entering this world the Logos quickly determined that it would be helpful if the two sexual aspects were separated into two unique forms or bodies, not just for companionship but to be helpmeets to one another (see Genesis 2:18). This world required a different arrangement of being in order to overcome the sense of loneliness and separateness. In many ways this separate feeling contributed to the selfishness and lack of cooperation with or attunement to the oneness. The Logos, God incarnate, divided its hermaphroditic self into the legendary Lilith, the first individually manifested female, and Amilius, the first male. These two were the first Eve and Adam. They were twins of the same being, halves of one mind, one spirit. According to Cayce's reading of the Akasha, it took eighty-six years to accomplish the separated projection of the complementary male-female aspects of soul into separate body types. Once this was accomplished, the complementary qualities could come together in a union that reflected the oneness in the heavenly dimensions, and the two would feel comforted and united. Oneness of the two was the emotional, mental experience that was hoped for. And it worked well for a while.

These new bodies were the third creation, the third root race for the godlings. Once the Logos had shown the way, most souls repeated the process, separating their male and female qualities, and manifesting them individually. Word of this spread around the world. In these ancient times the world still spoke one common language, so communication was easy and fast. The news that God's Logos had come among the people of Poseidia and created a new body type drew visitors from around the world. Some came driven by skepticism, some by wonder and hopefulness, some to challenge and confront, and some because it was their last hope. Poseidia was the center of the world. Even Lala-mu came from the far side of the planet to experience in the physical what she had in the mind and spirit.

Now union could occur between males and females, creating love, companionship, families, and home. The concept of home was one of the most fascinating to incarnate godlings. Prior to this, people lived in groups and community structures. The idea of sharing a special place with your companion and any offspring from that union was new. It quickly became apparent how comforting this arrangement was to incarnate souls. Sexually matched partners also fit with Nature's arrangement of this world. A sense of balance now existed. The godlings became harmonious with Nature's ways. It is repulsive today to accept that these early couples were halves of themselves, or incestuous brothers and sisters. At that ancient time genetics was not an issue among the Children of the One because their bodies were not yet completely physical structures like today, subject to genetic mixing and the strengths and weaknesses that we've come to understand. They were coupling with their spirits, minds, and hearts in oneness with God, the Oneness, not copulating with their physical bodies (except for the Children of Darkness which had been copulating using animal forms and later humanoid forms). Our mythologies reveal this situation, containing numerous stories of brothers and sisters married to one another. For example, in Egyptian mythology the great god Osiris is married to the great goddess Isis, who is also his sister, or in truth, the feminine half of his whole soul. The god Ra (pronounced ray) is married to his feminine half Rat (pronounced ray-t). The god Thoth (pronounced tote or tothe with a long "o") or, as the Greek's called him, Hermes, is married to his feminine half Maat (pronounced mate). It was the way of things in these early times. Later, as genetic forces became more important and more lessons needed to be learned, it became evident that marriages would gain by uniting with other than one's other half (in the ancient sense of "other half").



The fourth creation was the one we have been living with for much of human history as we know it today. The bodies we use today are fourth-age bodies, adamic bodies, homo-sapien bodies. But, as the Mayan's prophetic calendar indicates, we are about to go through another change on December 23, 2012. The fifth age, the age of "movement," began with Noah, but the fifth body type begins to form in the first decades of the 2000s.

transiten
30th September 2013, 07:49
Thankyou araucaria, was actually going to post about early matriarchal societies and the sacrifice of the King, interesting perspective to say the least...

Woman having this power surely related to the fact that life was obviously created out of her body and they didn't see the connection with intercourse.

As they understood the necessity of this, funny thing is that Plato and others tried to figure out how men would manage to give birth without women! They also came up with the idea that the sperm was the "child" that was placed in the empty womb of the woman:lol:

778 neighbour of some guy
30th September 2013, 08:29
Reuters earlier wrongly identified him as Sheikh Saleh bin Mohammed al-Lohaidan, a member of the Senior Council of Scholars, one of the top religious bodies in the birthplace of Islam.

By contrast, Sheikh Saleh bin Saad al-Lohaidan, the person quoted in the sabq.org report, is a judicial adviser to an association of Gulf psychologists. His comments reflect the extent of opposition to women driving among some conservatives in Saudi Arabia.

“If a woman drives a car, not out of pure necessity, that could have negative physiological impacts as functional and physiological medical studies show that it automatically affects the ovaries and pushes the pelvis upwards,” he told Sabq.


Ah, that's even worse, so basically this was not addressed to women but to men, if you let your wife drive, say bye bye to your future offspring and thereby your manhood in our community, how very very nice of this very scared not so fine specimen of a psychologist, you'd think he's pissed of at his mom for some reason and maybe all women for that matter?

I am so happy he.... as a male specimen who carries most of his junk outside of his body, can velcro it off and hang it from the rear view mirror when driving, out of pure necessity of course, it will show all other men he is a responsible driver, thinking of his future kids futures, I respect that.

How would he feel about women and sitting down in general, in the passenger seat for instance, how about taking the bus, subway, bicycle?

Atlas
30th September 2013, 15:47
Posted by Tara Umm Omar on April 26, 2011:



Capt. Hanada Hindi, the first Saudi female pilot. Masha’Allah this is an accomplishment! Now if only Capt. Hindi could drive herself to her job.http://medias.lepost.fr/ill/2008/12/25/h-20-1366414-1230186254.jpg


Using a loophole in Saudi Arabia’s ban on women driving cars, a Saudi woman drives a dune buggie (aka an ATV) in the desert, Saudi Arabiahttp://www.yourmiddleeast.com/media/news/images/2013/660x3905f7c8dcd140a7fa04f27d87d400dda62aa0ea514.jp g

Source: wordpress.com/women-driving-in-saudi-arabia-my-personal-thoughts (http://taraummomar.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/women-driving-in-saudi-arabia-my-personal-thoughts/)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/Using a loophole in Saudi Arabia’s ban on women driving cars, a Saudi woman drives a dune buggie (aka an ATV) in the Thumamah desert of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

learninglight
30th September 2013, 16:07
Just want to say here i have had 3 Cesarian Sections; 3 healthy children and i recovered quite quickly after each




Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

And then, the next thing is for mothers to stop having a Cesarian Sections performed during childbirth... Talking about the damage done... this is also something to also consider...

Bartzis on the harm done by the medical system performing a Cesarian Section:


http://www.radiociresarii.ro/uploads/temp/red%20play_1.jpg (http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=67026)

turiya :cool:

:focus:

sharon

kenaz
30th September 2013, 16:51
Let's not forget breastfeeding. The safety of your mother's arms.
The close connection between comfort and nourishment for both
mother and child or a propped up bottle in the car seat.

araucaria
30th September 2013, 17:41
Just want to say here i have had 3 Cesarian Sections; 3 healthy children and i recovered quite quickly after each




Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

And then, the next thing is for mothers to stop having a Cesarian Sections performed during childbirth... Talking about the damage done... this is also something to also consider...

Bartzis on the harm done by the medical system performing a Cesarian Section:


http://www.radiociresarii.ro/uploads/temp/red%20play_1.jpg (http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=67026)

turiya :cool:

:focus:

sharon
my children were both scheduled c-sections: head size vs pelvic size, no other way. Childbirth is still the biggest cause of mortality among young females.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/death_in_childbirth_doctors_increased_maternal_mor tality_in_the_20th_century.html

The births were peaceful, painless, happy occasions. My wife was conscious, I was present, and the children were perfectly fine.

transiten
30th September 2013, 17:47
Let's not forget breastfeeding. The safety of your mother's arms.
The close connection between comfort and nourishment for both
mother and child or a propped up bottle in the car seat.

As me and my female comusiscian were touring her husband fed the baby in his loving arms with the milk that she had pumped out with a breast pump and the milk stored in the fridge. Made a great kid!

turiya
30th September 2013, 21:04
Just want to say here i have had 3 Cesarian Sections; 3 healthy children and i recovered quite quickly after each




Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumcised.

Sierra

It is absolutely VITAL that this disfigurement and twisting of the male mind and body, in it's very genesis and unfolding, in the creation of it's unconsciousness and instinctive aspect of emotion....that this abomination be stopped, immediately.


The damage is greater than cutting off the legs, or plucking out the eyes ----of a newborn.

And then, the next thing is for mothers to stop having a Cesarian Sections performed during childbirth... Talking about the damage done... this is also something to also consider...

Bartzis on the harm done by the medical system performing a Cesarian Section:


http://www.radiociresarii.ro/uploads/temp/red%20play_1.jpg (http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=67026)

turiya :cool:

:focus:

sharon
my children were both scheduled c-sections: head size vs pelvic size, no other way. Childbirth is still the biggest cause of mortality among young females.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/death_in_childbirth_doctors_increased_maternal_mor tality_in_the_20th_century.html

The births were peaceful, painless, happy occasions. My wife was conscious, I was present, and the children were perfectly fine.

"What’s done to children, they will do to society." -- Karl Menninger

"If we are to heal the earth, we must begin by healing birth." -- Agnes Sallet Von Tannenberg

“If one went to the extreme of giving the patient the full details of mortality and morbidity related to cesarean section, most of them would get up and go out and have their baby under a tree…” -- Dr. Dermot W. McDonald, Neel J. Medicolegal pressure, MDs’ lack of patience cited in cesarean‘epidemic.’ Ob.Gyn. News Vol 22 No 10

"The only significant effect of continuous electronic foetal monitoring was an increase in the caesarean rate." -- Odent, M. 1996. Kitting needles, cameras and electronic fetal monitor. MIDIRS Midwifery Digest. 6(3).

"If a doula were a drug, it would be unethical not to use it." -- Dr. John H. Kennell

"Last time I was a private patient, this time I will have privacy and patience." -- Australian mother planning a homebirth

"Just as a woman’s heart knows how and when to pump, her lungs to inhale, and her hand to pull back from fire, so she knows when and how to give birth." -- Virginia Di Orio

"There is no way out of the experience except through it, because it is not really your experience at all but the baby’s. Your body is the child’s instrument of birth." -- Penelope Leach

"We’ve put birth in the same category as illness and disease and it’s never belonged there." -- Carla Hartley, founder of Trust Birth and the Ancient Art Midwifery Institute

"Offer hugs, not drugs." -- Adina Lebowitz



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFBf_alErog

turiya :cool:

Atlas
30th September 2013, 21:10
What’s done to children, they will do to society. -- Karl Menninger
This is very true.

grannyfranny100
30th September 2013, 22:50
I guess I am running late on the circumcision issue but here's another twist. If it ain't broke, why fix it! Circumcision has got to be a painful procedure and sounds like a barbaric ritual but I have heard it is a sanitation issue: harder to keep the penis clean without the procedure. True or untrue, I don't know.

To add to the sanitation issue, I have read studies that a higher percentage of males than women do not wash their hands before leaving the restroom. The male in my life makes sure he washes his hands. Then, to avoid infecting his hands with other guys' penis germs on the door knob, he opens the rest room door with a paper towel to prevent contamination.

Sure makes a romantic dinner more inspiring than wondering if the guy washed his hands before he passed you the salt and pepper shakers. Ugh!

turiya
30th September 2013, 23:04
I guess I am running late on the circumcision issue but here's another twist. If it ain't broke, why fix it! Circumcision has got to be a painful procedure and sounds like a barbaric ritual but I have heard it is a sanitation issue: harder to keep the penis clean without the procedure. True or untrue, I don't know.

To add to the sanitation issue, I have read studies that a higher percentage of males than women do not wash their hands before leaving the restroom. The male in my life makes sure he washes his hands. Then, to avoid infecting his hands with other guys' penis germs on the door knob, he opens the rest room door with a paper towel to prevent contamination.

Sure makes a romantic dinner more inspiring than wondering if the guy washed his hands before he passed you the salt and pepper shakers. Ugh!

Geroge Carlin Rebuttal...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnmMNdiCz_s

turiya :cool:

RunningDeer
30th September 2013, 23:04
"Domestic Violence": Billy Johnson for NRA News
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/AmidsTheNoise_zpsb1a12cdb.jpg
AmidsTheNoise (https://www.youtube.com/user/AmidsTheNoise?feature=watch)

EKLElhxFbdc


Published on Sep 30, 2013

turiya
30th September 2013, 23:15
[CENTER]"Domestic Violence": Billy Johnson for NRA News
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/AmidsTheNoise_zpsb1a12cdb.jpg
AmidsTheNoise (https://www.youtube.com/user/AmidsTheNoise?feature=watch)

Source Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKLElhxFbdc
Published on Sep 30, 2013

Yepper - Its learned behavior...
How to fix it?
Simple. In a word - 'Responsibility'.
Time to grow up. And be responsible for the health of one's own body-mind mechanism.

Got anger? Then vent it / express it in a way that will not put it on others, that will not harm or effect others. Go do a work out, ride a bike, pump some iron... channel it in a way that allows it to be dissipated in a civilized manner. Otherwise, it will, more than likely, lead to the harming oneself and/or the harming of another, or others. This is how it goes on being perpetuated, generation after generation after generation - not by genetic inheritance, but through providing a model of learned behavior to a younger generation. That is the simple logic of it. And above all, do not take antidepressants, SSRIs or other psychotropic drugs to escape from the responsibility of dealing with one's own mechanism. Understand it, be mature, deal with it!

turiya :cool:

grannyfranny100
30th September 2013, 23:24
turiya, thank you for the Carlin germ routine, He is my absolute, most favorite philosopher and he sure makes me laugh and laugh - good deep belly laughs!!

CD7
30th September 2013, 23:35
Quote Posted by CD7 (here)
Well actually no, none of this sounds familiar.


araucaria--OK, let me tell you what sounds familiar to me in all of this.



Well I should have made myself more clear...I was referring to the present age in tht you do not see the reversed roles portrayed in the article you quoted in above post--

Today you certainly do not see women owning their own property and ordering men around as slave workers. Sacrificing and eating men/boys or the men dressing in the female masters cloths?...This pretty much did not look familiar to me in the present context.

However the additional information you provided was very interesting! Ideas and concepts I have not heard before--especially regarding Shakespeare

M6*
1st October 2013, 01:35
And then?.....The question is, "What should you do about this?...and Why?"

I do believe it took a BRAVE MAN to describe this....in hopes of "guidance".
If you listen to your heart your heart will show you the way....and you
will be an even BETTER man because of it! After all, are we not here to LEARN?

Miriam Delacado got one of the QUESTIONS right when she asks, "Are you HAPPY?"

My very BEST WISHES to you always! M6*

M6*
1st October 2013, 03:15
Whoa!....Bill! THANKS!!!!

Only you could put such an ELOQUENT "spin" on such a subject as this!
'Twas not "LosT" on me.:-)

Have a wonderful day....each day....from here to there!

Your friend, M6*

araucaria
1st October 2013, 07:17
My views on home births are coloured by personal experience, which is old but still valid. The one after mine killed my mother, leaving a large family of small kids to fend for themselves with a father who made a wonderful role model for caring 21st century males, but could not replace a mother as well. Childbirth in itself is not a medical case, but it can so easily become one.

Kor
1st October 2013, 07:51
"Boys and how they are" from perspective of Psychosexual development


Women, pulling their hair out, over the men...they themselves born and raised?


Mother is of prime importance for the infant. First few years of development is when the infant, the child, learns Love.

Men who had problems with feeling the motherly love (phallic mothers or absent mothers) in their infantile stage of development, tend to have difficulties in sexual relations with women and are usually not satisfied with themselves - which leads to multitude of problems and in "general" produces psychopaths (in both genders).

Serial killers of women for example had a drastically bad transfer with their mothers, so when they were murdering those poor women they, on the subconscious level, were hurting their mothers. Women have similar yet less violent problems that often manifest in the lack of capability to show trust or to "surrender" herself in all her beauty to him.

Vaginal men are not attractive to women who get confused and call them mummy's boys. At the same time the "female equality" movement has produced generations of mummy's boys. Mothers having male roles in the family, competing with the husband does that.

This then makes women frustrated, at the same time they want to compete with men and at the same time they call them mummy's boys. They want a "real man" while not realizing they themselves are not "real women".


Father is of little importance to a new born and simply helps the mother by all means of support. His role comes into play later when it is time for the child to break the bond with it's mother. Failing to do this, men grow up into mommy's boys (mothers are "married" with their own sons) and women become feminists or phallic women.

Father has to take the mother "back" to him. This also means mother, once again, puts the father 1st. Meaning she always sleeps with the father at night in a separate room. Also (be it at night or day) it is no longer just (only) the child that has a physical touch with the mother. This is especially evident once the oral stage is complete.

The child has to "get over it" in a manner that is most safe and healthy to be able to control the feeling of something being unpleasant.

Boys will "compete" with the father, who should be there to serve the boy as a model to identify with. Child will experience the emotion of lose, competitiveness and also jealousy, but it will grow out of it, it will learn, experience and become a more responsible adult who will not beat (or murder - when also the oral phase was a failure) women or her children (also his) in a jealous rage.

The father is there to take all that "sh*t" (so it is not a resent towards the mother) and to "impose" authority, "induce" respect and at the same time to help provide the safety and the feeling of love.

The boy will have all the time to "internalize" and process the feelings, thoughts (much of it becomes "forgotten" aka goes into subconscious) and experience them as intensively as needed, while at the same time being cared, loved and provided for by both of his parents, with father taking the role of authority. Healthy grown up man will not even be capable to hit a woman.


All of the above, as controversial as it might be to some, is valid. The arguments such as "hunter gatherer society ended thousands of years ago, time to move on" and alike all fail when it comes to the traditional roles. There roles have been and are heavily distorted by the introduction of ignorance. The ignorance is seen in forms such as Church Corporation, abuse of the feminine, feminist movement, Ritalin ...etc

People in large majority are robots. They experience emotion not knowing why. They want something not knowing why. They do things....not....knowing....WHY. And...above all....they feel and think it is all ok.

Dare to dispute that, they attack you.


Side note:


Men will never be scared by strong independent, self sufficient, successful...etc women. This is not what men get scared of, that is only what the feminists want everyone to think.

Men get scared by being unable to satisfy or properly satisfy a woman. It can quickly go so far that a husband will rather wank off than have sex with his effervescent spouse. This is also why so many women FAKE IT and never tell their pricks how unsatisfied they feel.

Then there is also the "quick shooter" problem aka men who cum very fast. All of this is of course a MALE problem (also connected to psyche)
Other reactions to this is that men (in their fear) label such women as whores. Same labeling comes from other girls since they are unable to compete (women are in constant competition with each other, as are men but not nearly as much)

Also - the feminist movement was born out of the abuse of the "male dominance". Born out of thinking women's place is in the kitchen and other nonsense like that. There are also a lot of cultural and historical factors which influenced events of the past and the current present.


What could be done about it:

When either is aware of it's Id only then the incorporation of the other can be talked about. Being aware of the Id means being aware of what you do and why. This way you can "transcend" your action by being conscious of it.


The intention changes or you stop doing it or you do it more or you do it differently. This way sayings things such as "i felt it right" or "it is logical to be done in this manner" can be dismissed as bull s**. You know what you are doing, feeling, thinking and why. You do not bull s*** others with how you feel or resonate with something or how something makes sense to you...instead you tell them your knowing, you tell them why you are doing or did something, why you like this and dislike that .....and we are not talking about the ice cream taste preferences here.


Also be prepared that when you are so very much honest it will "hurt" others. "Honesty that hurts"...even when u are just simply being honest about yourself. People in majority are not ready for you to be honest with them...especially when it is about them. They will block you out and avoid any contact if need be.


Man feeling a woman inside...can self tame his "rooster instinct", can bring himself out of the phallic charger mentality and is as such less animalistic, can become aware of his influence over the tender flowers of the Earth and not abuse them, becomes more aware of his sexuality, can perceive more with feeling...

Woman feeling a man inside...can understand her own need for admiration and keep her narcissist in check - thus being less fragile or prone to hysteria, can assert herself better with men without becoming one herself, can handle her emotion and not let it control her...


But none of this can be done without being aware of it first.

CD7
1st October 2013, 10:49
Kor:
Men will never be scared by strong independent, self sufficient, successful...etc women. This is not what men get scared of, that is only what the feminists want everyone to think.

Men get scared by being unable to satisfy or properly satisfy a woman. It can quickly go so far that a husband will rather wank off than have sex with his effervescent spouse. This is also why so many women FAKE IT and never tell their pricks how unsatisfied they feel.

Then there is also the "quick shooter" problem aka men who cum very fast. All of this is of course a MALE problem (also connected to psyche)
Other reactions to this is that men (in their fear) label such women as whores. Same labeling comes from other girls since they are unable to compete (women are in constant competition with each other, as are men but not nearly as much)


Also - the feminist movement was born out of the abuse of the "male dominance". Born out of thinking women's place is in the kitchen and other nonsense like that. There are also a lot of cultural and historical factors which influenced events of the past and the current present.


What could be done about it:

What could be done about it:

When either is aware of it's Id only then the incorporation of the other can be talked about. Being aware of the Id means being aware of what you do and why. This way you can "transcend" your action by being conscious of it.


The intention changes or you stop doing it or you do it more or you do it differently. This way sayings things such as "i felt it right" or "it is logical to be done in this manner" can be dismissed as bull s**. You know what you are doing, feeling, thinking and why. You do not bull s*** others with how you feel or resonate with something or how something makes sense to you...instead you tell them your knowing, you tell them why you are doing or did something, why you like this and dislike that .....and we are not talking about the ice cream taste preferences here.


Also be prepared that when you are so very much honest it will "hurt" others. "Honesty that hurts"...even when u are just simply being honest about yourself. People in majority are not ready for you to be honest with them...especially when it is about them. They will block you out and avoid any contact if need be.


Man feeling a woman inside...can self tame his "rooster instinct", can bring himself out of the phallic charger mentality and is as such less animalistic, can become aware of his influence over the tender flowers of the Earth and not abuse them, becomes more aware of his sexuality, can perceive more with feeling...

Woman feeling a man inside...can understand her own need for admiration and keep her narcissist in check - thus being less fragile or prone to hysteria, can assert herself better with men without becoming one herself, can handle her emotion and not let it control her...


But none of this can be done without being aware of it first.




Some cold hard facts in this article. We can be so mechanistic/animalistic in our behaviors! Id say that HONESTY is definitely an issue in relationships. Im an honest bird...things don't fly well!!!! LOL

But then again in general its difficult for most humans to face any truths about the self--

Kor
1st October 2013, 11:27
Some cold hard facts in this article. We can be so mechanistic/animalistic in our behaviors!


It is not exactly an article or i would not call my post as such...and yes, the "animal inside" is very much alive.

It is the human instinct (or inner animal or however one calls it) and how you go about it that can separate you from the survival of the fittest behavior. Even with the children that can be seen, when they "test the limits", see how they can satisfy their needs (and to what an extent). That is why the children (who are all very cute, adorable, nice smelling...etc factors that ensure they are being taken care of) need to receive the best of the best to then return this best later in their adult life, since if not...well...just look at the world today.

Swan
1st October 2013, 12:07
Childbirth in itself is not a medical case, but it can so easily become one.

I am certain that the risks of a birth becoming a medical case are much higher in a hospital setting, than at home (if an experienced midwife is present and the woman feels safe ).

My first birth would certainly have involved some medical procedure, maybe a cesarian, if I had been in a hospital. Luckily I had chosen a wise midwife to help me through a home birth. The birth took three and a half days. I had given up a couple of times during that time; I didn´t want to go to the hospital, but I very much doubted my own ability to give birth to a child. I just wanted someone to take over and do it for me. In a hospital, they would have. But I was at home, and had to do it myself. The midwife told me: you are strong, the baby is strong, you can do this.

And...I could :) My son was born in perfect health. And I am still so very proud of myself.

When I was born, my mother was in hospital. The birth was induced since she was overdue, and when I didn´t come out quick enough I was pulled out with tongs. I can feel in my very bones, in my essence, what a negative effect this has had on me. That´s why it was important to me that my baby and I could take all the time we needed for the birth.,

IMO cesarians and other medical procedures during the birth process are great if they are necessary. But I think often a natural birth would be more beneficial for both the woman and the baby.

Kimberley
1st October 2013, 13:55
Again I have not read this whole thread however have been checking in as best I can...

I wanted to comment about the label "feminist" and about the so called "feminist movement"/"Women’s Liberation" that Kor brought up.

First off it interests me that "feminist" is a derogatory word to many. For many the word "feminist" meant man hater or homosexual or both.

For me personally it was a term that meant equality for women. What is wrong with striving for equality among men and women? In the USA Women Still Earned 77 Cents On Men's Dollar In 2012: One Report (there are many more): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html

In WWII women were encouraged to join the work force because so many men were fighting the war (a war designed to make money for the upper elite). Then after the war women were encouraged to go back to being homemakers.

I only learned/realized this year that the "Feminist Movement"/"Women’s Liberation" was orchestrated to break up the family and tax women (another divide and conquer tactic from the upper elite). "Feminism" or "Women’s Liberation" was funded by the Rockefeller's:

Great article "Feminism – Created to Destroy Families and Control Society" http://russianwomentruth.com/feminism-created-to-destroy-families-and-control-society-part-1/


Excerpt from Aaron Russo’s ( filmmaker, music promoter and friend of a member of the Rockeffeller family)last interview before his death in 2007:

Well one of the things he told me was that.. he was at the house one night and we started talking and he was laughing and he said,

“Aaron what do you think Women’s Liberation was all about?”

And I had pretty conventional thinking about it at that point and I said,

“I think it’s about women having the right to work to get equal pay with men just like they won the right to vote.”

He started to laugh and he said,

“Your an idiot.”

And I said,

“Why am I an idiot?”

And he said,

“Let me tell you what that was about. We the Rockefellers funded that.”

“We funded Women’s Lib and we’re the ones who got it all over the newspapers and television (through) the Rockefeller Foundation…”

And he says,

“You wanna know why?

There were two primary reasons.

And one reason was we couldn’t tax half the population before Women’s Lib and the second reason was now we get the kids in school at an early age.. we can indoctrinate kids on how to think and with it break up their family. The kids start looking at the state as the family.. As the schools as the officials as their family.. not the parents teaching them. And so those were the two primary reasons for Women’s Lib.”

Which I thought up to that point was a noble thing. But when I saw their intentions behind it.. where they were coming from when they created it and the thought of it.. I saw the evil behind what I thought was a noble venture..”


This is a clip of the above mentioned interview:

_cgl_N0THFs


The full interview is here and is about 9/11 and chipping the population and such...:

YGAaPjqdbgQ



Anyway I guess the point I am trying to make is that "men" are not the bad guys. They too have been brainwashed along with the women.

This is a good thread. We are coming together as men and women and it is important to understand all of the many things that have been orchestrated intentionally to divide us.

I would be remiss if I did not mention breastfeeding vs artificial feeding of baby's that is another divide and conquer move...but I will not get into that one here.

Much love, peace, and fun to us all, always in all ways!!! :grouphug:

transiten
1st October 2013, 14:12
Kimberley! Your avatar looks just like my Leo 5 planets, Aquarius Moon mother..she was a feminist alright! And noone commented my post that men own 99%+ of everything possible on planet Earth! (Ok haven't checked all posts after that one) Finally someone adressing this extreme economic imbalance.

Aarons perspective is interesting but doesn't excuse this imbalance.

ulli
1st October 2013, 14:33
Kimberley! Your avatar looks just like my Leo 5 planets, Aquarius Moon mother..she was a feminist alright! And noone commented my post that men own 99%+ of everything possible on planet Earth! (Ok haven't checked all posts after that one) Finally someone adressing this extreme economic imbalance.

Aarons perspective is interesting but doesn't excuse this imbalance.

I would have commented but would first need you to give me the source of that statement about the 99%.

This is a complex issue, and needs in depth investigation. Knowledge of inheritance laws can help here.
For instance, I discovered that for centuries the all male clergy of the Catholic Church
would move in on wealthy widows after the husband passed away
in order for her to change her will and testament to benefit the Church after her death.
So perhaps if one looks at how much the total wealth of the earth is owned by institutions,
governments, royal families, then the percentage shifts a bit.
Admittedly institutional property is administered by men, but still, it is collective property.

When Islamic inheritance law was first instituted it was considered revolutionary, in that it benefitted women.
Even though it gave the men twice as much as the women,
but in Christian societies women were still considered property at that time.
The roles were simply divided due to women being the child bearers,
and actually in past societies were more protected than they are in the western world today,
where they might earn equal salaries but don't receive the respect for multi-tasking being a mother as well as a bread winner.

http://javedahmad.tripod.com/islam/inheritence.htm

transiten
1st October 2013, 15:48
Kimberley! Your avatar looks just like my Leo 5 planets, Aquarius Moon mother..she was a feminist alright! And noone commented my post that men own 99%+ of everything possible on planet Earth! (Ok haven't checked all posts after that one) Finally someone adressing this extreme economic imbalance.

Aarons perspective is interesting but doesn't excuse this imbalance.

I would have commented but would first need you to give me the source of that statement about the 99%.

This is a complex issue, and needs in depth investigation. Knowledge of inheritance laws can help here.
For instance, I discovered that for centuries the all male clergy of the Catholic Church
would move in on wealthy widows after the husband passed away
in order for her to change her will and testament to benefit the Church after her death.
So perhaps if one looks at how much the total wealth of the earth is owned by institutions,
governments, royal families, then the percentage shifts a bit.
Admittedly institutional property is administered by men, but still, it is collective property.

When Islamic inheritance law was first instituted it was considered revolutionary, in that it benefitted women.
Even though it gave the men twice as much as the women,
but in Christian societies women were still considered property at that time.
The roles were simply divided due to women being the child bearers,
and actually in past societies were more protected than they are in the western world today,
where they might earn equal salaries but don't receive the respect for multi-tasking being a mother as well as a bread winner.

http://javedahmad.tripod.com/islam/inheritence.htm

Totally agree! The 99% came up in the 70/80:ies when i was very engaged in the Peace and Womens Lib movement. I never checked it out myself just trusted one of the women who was the leader of the organisation in Sweden and arranged a big demonstration against NATO planning to place missiles all around Europe.

Maybe the sum is smaller but the imbalance still remains.

northstar
1st October 2013, 16:30
This is one of the most thoughtful and interesting and heartfelt threads I have encountered on Avalon. I deeply respect Bill's statements about males and violence. It takes a real man, a spiritually evolved man, and a man very confident in his own skin to speak the truth about male violence. If all men woke up and acknowledged the propensity for violence within themselves honestly, there would be much less abuse and suppression of women.

I have also been moved by the stories here. It seems like these gender discussion threads on Avalon bring out heartfelt and genuine personal stories from members. There is much to be learned from these stories! And may we never, ever ignore or minimize the violence that women do.

As I read this thread I notice many people suggesting that we must get past "male violence" and focus on human violence in general. I also see many heartbreaking stories of female violence and stories of bad behavior from females. Unfortunately, there seems to be a deep discomfort with facing and naming male violence for what it is.

I suggest that elevating the discussion past gender and focusing on human violence in general simply ignores the unspeakable horrors that females have suffered under male oppression for centuries.

And I would like to add that I LOVE and adore men. There are many men in my life whom I love, respect, appreciate, and adore. Speaking the truth about male violence is NOT man-hating. It is simply saying what needs to be said, and I am very happy that Bill said it so well.

I would like to conclude with an excerpt from a writer by the name of Lierre Keith. She is a self-proclaimed radical, she is well versed in the sociology and politics of violence and she has spent years working with female victims of male violence. Her words are raw and harsh but extremely powerful!



http://web.archive.org/web/20050507183334/http://www.inthewake.org/keith1.html

One time at an activist conference I brought up some basic statistics on rape and male violence. And immediately another woman stood up and said--in that tone that's in the border area between earnest and self-righteous--"We need to educate."

I replied, "I don't want to educate men, I want to stop them." This was, of course, met with horrified silence--what exactly was I suggesting? But there is no therapy, no rehab program, that works to change perpetrators. By now, everything has been tried. Nothing works. They don't ever learn to see women as human beings. They don't ever stop feeling entitled to women's bodies. So not only was her suggestion liberal, it was useless.

...

Now trace it back: who's attached to that fist? Now, name an agent. If you're talking about male violence, that's hard. Not intellectually hard--it's easy to see who's attached to that fist. But emotionally, psychologically. One reason it's hard is because there are consequences to naming men and male power. You will be ridiculed, silenced, maybe physically threatened. You might be raped. You might be killed. When the Taliban took over in Afghanistan, women who refused to wear burkhas, refused to stay entombed inside their houses, were lined up by the hundreds and shot. In Algeria, the Islamic fundamentalists have murdered 80,000 women who have resisted their demands, and the fundamentalists don't even control the government. I've heard from someone who's traveled extensively in Iraq that the same thing is happening to women there: men are picking women off one by one, any woman who looks like she's educated or has a job or is independent is a target for rape and murder.

Another reason it's hard is because there's a tremendous psychological identification with the oppressor. There's an absolutely brilliant book called Loving To Survive: Sexual Terror, Men's Violence, and Women's Lives by Dee Graham. She's come up with the concept of Societal Stockholm Syndrome. Her basic thesis is that just as captives bond to their captors in hostage situations, women--and any group that's oppressed--will bond to men or the group that has social power. Everybody should read this book. It's incredibly important.

Once you've named the owner of the fist, because you're a radical you look for patterns. Who else is getting a fist in the face? And you find out: in the USA, every 18 seconds a man beats a woman. Keep tracing it back. Do the police stop him? Do the courts, the laws? Does god? Or do they in fact support his right to hit you? Who says he has a right to hit you? It's in the bible, you're supposed to submit because it's all Eve's fault. Why don't you count as a human being? You see that you're surrounded by images of women as objects, chopped into body parts, on display, for sale. In fact, women are being brutalized in millions of pictures and it's called sex. The clothes you're supposed to wear put you on display, make it impossible for you to run or even walk. They turn you into an object, a victim, and that's called "sexy." Why are you wearing these clothes? Why do you want this attention when every 18 seconds it ends with a fist in the face?

transiten
1st October 2013, 16:36
Yesterday night there was a radio show where pple can call and give their view on a theme for the night. The High Court in Sweden yesterday declared several young men "not guilty" of a rape of a 14 year old girl. She had not "just left" when she could have and she didn't resist enough...

B.....y H....l!!! A lot of men called and were devastated and women also of course. What signals will this send to our society? Scheesh, Sweden 2013 :angry::sad:

Delight
1st October 2013, 17:16
Kor:
Also be prepared that when you are so very much honest it will "hurt" others. "Honesty that hurts"...even when u are just simply being honest about yourself. People in majority are not ready for you to be honest with them...especially when it is about them. They will block you out and avoid any contact if need be.




Some cold hard facts in this article. We can be so mechanistic/animalistic in our behaviors! Id say that HONESTY is definitely an issue in relationships. Im an honest bird...things don't fly well!!!! LOL

But then again in general its difficult for most humans to face any truths about the self--

Was this an article or Kor's? it was very sound IMO.
This has already been clearly stated in the thread but it is not the male or female but both who have been nearly destroyed in the relationship war we inherited. It starts with the rupture of attachment with caregivers babies. Babies in cultures where they are held constantly are much better off but modern life in carriers isolates babies from touch.

Reactive attachment disorder and other attachment problems occur when children have been unable to consistently connect with a parent or primary caregiver. This can happen for many reasons:

Obvious abuses
A baby cries and no one responds or offers comfort.
A baby is hungry or wet, and they aren’t attended to for hours.
No one looks at, talks to, or smiles at the baby, so the baby feels alone.
A young child gets attention only by acting out or displaying other extreme behaviors.
A young child or baby is mistreated or abused.
Sometimes the child’s needs are met and sometimes they aren’t. The child never knows what to expect.
The infant or young child is hospitalized or separated from his or her parents.
A baby or young child is moved from one caregiver to another (can be the result of adoption, foster care, or the loss of a parent).
The parent is emotionally unavailable because of depression, an illness, or a substance abuse problem.

As adults, we perpetuate what seems normal. I was raised by narcissists so lack of attachment and inability to feel was conditioned. I know it is not normal and I think it is mostly 'attachment disordr" and can be changed when we chaneg our emotional neuropathways.

This may have come up before in the discussion. "honesty as weapon". This has been a biggie as a "truth" seeker.
Example: a relationship with a man in the last few years who confused me tremendously because he said he loved me but he "picked on me" and said things that were really hurtful in the name of being honest.

It was actually a useful relationship after the fact because I saw many things that I had ignored. One is that spiritual words become an excuse for punishment within and toward self and between "seekers". People who aspire to self "improvement" will take alot of guff from someone they believe "knows better". I stayed in this relationship thinking i "needed" to learn something other than "goodbye"

Out of this latest battle, I had a major revelation. Our behavior was a more subtle form of the way my parents interacted. It was no ordinary "brawling" but subtle destruction. Get a human close enough through dangling allure and offers of love. Just when the victim is in range, the Venus Flytrap "lover" closes jaws on the victim and another piece of humanity (the warm cuddly soft trusting and vulnerable creature) gets chewed off.

My part in the play has been defensive withholding and then the rage that I gave back and hate I felt. No love to be found ANYWHERE.

My mother used "honesty" berating my Dad who yearly became less willing to function. She wheedled "closeness' and threw things back in our face when she knew something intimate about us that had a potential charge. She was so messed up that she was not one person but a fractured mess. One wanted to be close to her beauty and one suffered from her ability to allure because she would always "get you".

I noticed the females my brothers married were taking on the shadow of some of my mother's characteristics (compulsion to repeat??)
I was appalled because I recognized the people in my family were dangerous. Where was the empathy and emotional depth?
This led me to study narcissism.

My conclusion was that being dependent and necessarily close to a person who is not present and consistent emotionally stunts the ability to give and receive appropriate energetic "touch". As babies we MUST BE TOUCHED (not just physical but emotionally) to awaken. Also if we refuse touching (and babies also are difficult sometimes.The quality of touch "feels yucky" to the baby. What hat is offered is not received well. Everything is taken personally by the caregivers and ignorance continues. What a MESS) Major capacities start withering but can be resumed with rehab of the neuronet!!

I am convinced narcissm is not incurable!!

In my own case, it was heart breaking to know I had been a part of this anti-love in my defensiveness. We cannot live without love. We are finely tuned sensitive beings who experience hurt in the very most sensitive relationships. The reactive template where pain and love become mixed up is Masochism and sadism replacing loving relations.

In intimate relating, verbal berating can be seen as the tool of S/M dynamics and leads to more and more harm.

I don't think we should trust that berating of one another's flaws is HONEST until AFTER we figure out how "advice and guidance" can be cruelly used and become aware of our "cruelty" that is an echo of "revenge".

People who have been cruelly used cannot help being stunted but unfortunately the "beat(ing) goes on" when people are given the right to pass on the suffering. By the way, there are three of us siblings. Every one of us REFUSED to have children and agreed to stop this lineage violence.

Edit:

Trauma is ubiquitous. We abuse others from our unhealed trauma. It is held in the body mind and we can heal it when we realize it exists for healing.


How trauma typically occurs is follows. The person via their senses comes into contact with an unsafe environment and/or object such as another person, and this activates their ANS(autonomic nervous system) into a Sympathetic state. The person tries to resolve the threat they face via the "fight or flight" state choices of "fight, flight or freeze".

The crucial factor in the formation of trauma is that the defences of "fight, flight, and freeze" simply did not work and the person was overcome with utter helplessness. The person can do nothing to influence the outcome of events. The ANS is overwhelmed by this failed response and the human condition then seems to dissolve at this point into a complete collapse and instinctual feeling of impending death(Van Der Hart:1989).

The primary emotions we all come equipped with, such as fear, anger, disgust, grief, which communicate others to back off, protect us, or avoid us, do not produce the results they were designed for. The victim does not regain safety and decomposes and may fragment(Levine:1996). Some victims dissociate or "split off" from their bodies, others collapse into shock, others lose bodily control and function to varying degrees.

An analogy here is it is like your computer "locking up" and needing a reboot in order to function again. Trauma is like this. The operating systems of the Body-Mind, like the computer, get compromised, corrupted and a freeze or lockup ensures. Unfortunately humans do not reboot like computers do.

What happens is that the Amygdala and Hippocampus parts of the middle or limbic brain seem to register the event in a damaged way into the sensory and interpretive reptilian and limbic brain systems(Ogden:2006). As a result, the person will not function the same after the trauma event.

Kolk(2006) notes that traumatised persons often lose the capacity to utilise their emotions as guides for effective action. The logic seems to be the Body-Mind saw in the trauma that the victims emotions did not produce the desired effect during the trauma, and now afterwards, when the same emotions get activated, a disconnection is triggered so the person no longer can verbally identify with the meaning of physical sensations and muscular activation, both from an awareness, a naming, and regulation perspective.

This medical condition is called Alexithymia, and is a trauma related condition. Sufferers will be literally out of touch with their own embodied states of being, as well as their own needs as well as the needs of others. This is why trauma sufferers are often seen to be unable to gauge and modulate their own internal states, and either go into chaotic collapse or lash out in response to minor irritations that life presents us all.

At the same time the trauma process seems to create a fixed, rigid, almost mechanical response to dealing with subsequent types of environmental stimulus that mimic some aspect of the original trauma environment or abusing object.(Levine:1996). There is evidence that the particular rigid response continually retaken after an initial trauma event occurs, seems to be the response that was unsuccessfully being taken when the trauma occurred.

The French psychiatrist and behaviourist Pierre Janet noted in the Victorian era that "traumatised patients are continuing the action, or rather the attempt at the action, which began when the trauma happened, and they exhaust themselves in these everlasting recommencements". The traumatised individual reacts to minor triggers that their now hyper-aroused and hyper vigilant body-mind encounters and which leads to reactions and emotions that may be out of context, humiliating and shaming for the traumatised person, and others on the receiving end of their outburst. Over time these uncontrollable outbursts or collapses take their toll on the person, their family, work colleagues and friends.

In this process the "front brain" simply "does not show up". Trauma and subsequent trauma replays are not under conscious control(Ogden:2006), and cognitive and rational emotional therapy or coaching techniques do not get initiated in these episodes. The person "regresses", is not in present time, and lives from past replayed images and frozen emotional states, notes Reich(1970) .

The legacy of trauma is that these body centric sensory and motoric patterns can be reactivated into the physical response of past terror, abandonment, helplessness, and abuse in fine detail. So we end up with a person who has at one level disowned their own understanding of their physical sensations and muscular actions(Alexithymia), and yet these same body-centric patterns can be triggered by the two rear brains in unison, which is an unconscious process, so taking a person into an out of control place.

The bottom line becomes a dissociated person "living in their heads", neglectful of their bodies, and yet possessed violently by these same bodies at a place and time of choosing not under the persons front rational brain, or any other conscious control.http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/page/trauma.html"] ("http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/page/trauma.html)

minkton
1st October 2013, 17:42
When I think of my mother, who died a few years back, I remember a very gentle, hugely tolerant, loving person. Like many women her age, she was ultra-submissive and didn't interfere with my father's treatment of his children when she should have.

I still have problems trying to reconcile both sides of her nature--the one who took care of us and loved us and the one who betrayed us, because my father's word was law. It really is enough to drive you a bit crazy. I have often found myself asking the question in my mind, "Who WERE you?" Which one was you? She had so much power and she didn't use it. Talk about conditioned responses. It's like both of my parents had a human side and a social robot side that was reflexive, unthinking, unquestioning.

For all of our flaws, baby boomers did manage to smash the social order by questioning dominant myths. In so doing we have become more ourselves and more truly human. I honestly think that if the sexual revolution and other types of political awakening hadn't occurred, we would have become more and more hive minded or hive mindless. The movie, The Stepford Wives, would be seen as a film about libertarianism, by comparison.

The very fact that this discussion is taking place at all is because the first steps have been taken to dismantle the 'patriarchy'. May it continue with patience, mercy and love.
Where were you? you wonder, about your mother.. she was asleep. Numbed into deep sleep by her lack of voice and autonomy. I dont believe she was inherently ultra submissive, born to cringe and allow violence. I believe she was behaving that way because she had no way to do otherwise.

minkton
1st October 2013, 17:48
I'm puzzled in this thread by the idea that mothers need to stop getting their sons circumsised....circumcision was a woman's idea and is perpetrated by women , and it is entirely up to the mother, if her son is circumcised? I had no idea that men had been so excluded from the entire germination of the idea and that fathers had no voice in this ritual for their sons.

Has it always been entirely the mothers decision? Why? What is the rationale there?
Hi Minkton,
I am not sure if you are referring to a particular culture regarding the 'authority' to decide on male circumcision-or the Western world in general? For western societies Circumcision is normally a combined parental choice, both the Mother & Father discuss and decide. Personally I think it is tantamount to mutilation, there is no genuine benefit to the procedure, but the choice is there.

Hi GalaxyHorse, thankyou for taking the time to respond to me. I am not referring to anything other than what was said in this thread, where the responsibility for circumcision appeared to be firmly laid at the door of the mother.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Yesterday night there was a radio show where pple can call and give their view on a theme for the night. The High Court in Sweden yesterday declared several young men "not guilty" of a rape of a 14 year old girl. She had not "just left" when she could have and she didn't resist enough...

B.....y H....l!!! A lot of men called and were devastated and women also of course. What signals will this send to our society? Scheesh, Sweden 2013 :angry::sad:


Perfect example of abuse of women. Their disempowerment taken as collusion.

Project_Buggy_Beach
1st October 2013, 18:45
One of my family members worked for a state agency that handles women abuse cases, with that being said I’ve heard some pretty awful stories and have witnessed the effects of the job and other life events unknown to me until later influence the family member to make their entire life a statement battling abuse. Whatever stories you’ve heard in the public venue aren’t even close to the sick reality we live within, I’ve given this years of meditation and find myself drifting off considering the subject, as disturbing as it sounds I believe it’s a natural process of humanity in its entirety rising above fight or flight, action reaction base mental l functions and moving onto humanity 2.0 where at least an initial filter is applied before making a snap knee jerk decision to haul off and smack a person upside the head when they make a comment that enrages you. I don’t hit people but I can become very verbally abusive and have a sharp witted tongue and that’s my internal battle for self improvement to constantly stay calm even when severely stressed, I don’t always achieve it and I don’t want to become a mindless psychopathic robot who has no emotion, but the balance, working on delivery, how much emotion do I allow to seep through, volume, breath control, eye contact, hand gestures, body position, even if I’ve fallen victim to becoming enraged, letting the adrenaline kick in and spitting rage back solves nothing. This brings up the spiritual component of human advancement and I see it mentioned here, call it whatever you want, Reptilian, Demon, Angel, if you pay close attention during moments of violence you can almost see a spirit jumping from person to person causing the situation to escalate and it takes years of practice to feel this immense power suddenly within you and not let it control you, and I believe that’s the test, the ongoing experiment with humanity, the balance of sacred and profane, yin-yang, dark light, not all angels or light power is going to feel soothing in a stressful situation and you’re going to be tested in the same ways, how do you react to the idiot cutting you off in traffic for no reason, it all starts there, internally.

grannyfranny100
1st October 2013, 18:52
Kimberly, I am aware of Russo's claim about women's lib being an invention to increase tax revenue and break up the family. I watched this second wave of working women. They bought into the media stories of celebrities who could afford nannies, housekeepers as role models for themselves when they wouldn't be making celebrity wages.

I remember my younger stay-at-home sisters (baby boom generation) being put down by the women who did get jobs. The women's lib movement in my early career days was fermenting long before the Rockefellers claimed it as their scheme. The Rockefeller dynasty just saw a trend and decided to capitalized on it as psychopaths usually do.

I feel the transition of women's lib started as a result of WWII. With men off to war, women were getting their taste of working to aid the war effort. After the war, women were patted on their heads and socially engineered to return to home to make way for their husbands to have those jobs. Some women were content with the stay-at-home mom role which I feel is an extremely powerful and undervalued role. But some women harbored feelings of discontent and this was the beginning of the transition in the late fifties and early sixties.

One of my sisters does extremely thorough family genealogy and the stories of U.S. women in the late 1600s, 1700s and 1800s are gut wrenchingly lacking in options. Women widowed early with children were soiled women in many mens eyes and if they couldn't find another husband, they were reducing to doing household tasks for others as a source of income. If you investigate your own family, it is quite an education. There are even books about women in the midwest on isolated homesteads and what they went through.

So don't necessarily buy totally into the Rockefeller myth on women's lib. There are many factors and your own family's history can provide much insight to some of them. And their stories can help people, male and female, understand where they get their strength and fortitude from.

Kor
1st October 2013, 20:20
Was this an article or Kor's? it was very sound IMO.


I wrote that. I did have it "pre-written" from some other occasion, but it is my work.

It is ofc based on Freud and Lacan..etc i do not take credit for the science...I just wrote it in a manner that can be understood. No fancy words, no overly abstract descriptions..etc

Main point of it was that...there is much that goes on and much that happens for which one, you, me...US...can take responsibility. Born into bondage takes a whole different meaning when you look at it from this (the before post) perspective. Saying everything is in ruin due to "higher forces" is...partially correct. But putting all the blame on that and ignoring the "elephant" right next to you is a one way road to nothingness.

And to be frank...with proper awareness...much could be avoided. No "secret government" controller can force you much or the entire population if the population is aware...not (or not just) of the shadow manipulators but about THEMSELVES. And there is no need to sit in the pyramid or spend ur life meditating under a tree...all you have to do is face the mirror but this is where most fail.




I noticed the females my brothers married were taking on the shadow of some of my mother's characteristics (compulsion to repeat??)



Yes.

Men pick women based on the "image" of their mother.
Women pick men based on the "image" of their father.
Image - characteristics

If a man chooses a female that is too much like their mother, they might suffer the impotency at home, while being very potent in some other bed. This is due to the unconscious knowing of forbidden incest relationship he had with his mother as a small child (aka oral phase). The concept of "infidelity" is also related to this. Both genders, single or bonded, have hidden fantasies and desires.






This led me to study narcissism.

I am convinced narcissm is not incurable!!




Narcissism:

To put it short....



Pathological



A narcissist is made when parents abuse their children. The abuse is done by "embodiment" of the child within the parent.


In practice this is seen when either parent says something like: "look what it (he or she) is doing to me".

That is when the child does something the parent dislikes. It is the narcissistic need of the parents that is left unsatisfied, when the child does not live up to expectations.

The grades in school, the after school volleyball class, the piano lessons, the art club...etc The better the child does the better the reward, as parent's satisfy their own needs. Child can see that parents react with approval when grades are high and when medals and other awards are brought home. What develops inside the child is this - they will like me more, if i will be and do better. This is buying love and a narcissist is "born".

So it is clear that in most cases the parents or one of them already was a narcissist, as it was filling it's own needs by abusing it's own child. (the post before talks about needs and control of them)

Typically the narcissists live in a home full of mirrors, they can not but admire themselves. They also need them at their place of work. They act a lot, they play the role of themselves all the time. Each opportunity has a different mask, it depends on the impression they want to leave on their audience. They excel at bluffing and always want to be the center of attention. If not they feel bad so they make sure they are by talking out loud, telling jokes, talking over others and doing whatever it takes to raise their "social value".
Their self esteem depends on it as they respect themselves only as much as their public respects and praises them. They pick people around them based on the value they can get from them. People as friends, people they date with and marry. There has to be something of value about those people. So they go and join clubs such as Lions or Rotary...
Narcissist uses other people as a prop and as a prop they can discard them if need be. Narcissist will not care for it's extended family unless it will see a use in them - if it needs them. There is a need for constant praise, fan clubs, people applauding, autobiographies, doing extreme sports with a lot of media attention...etc

For if there is no such thing the narcissist will not feel loved which will lead to depression. Narcissistic people are in truth very lonely. A sad narcissist will tell others how all this "bad things" happen to it all the time and how unfair that is.

Narcissistic people are mostly found in entertainment industry and politics. The more competent ones also take leading positions in companies, as they will do everything to succeed - it raises their social value. The down side is that, they care for their own benefit and their own success and have their own interests at heart.

Today's society is very narcissistic. This is shown through "main stream culture" and alike. Today's society also demands from a person to be narcissistic - at least in part. The "always confident" and other traits of the narcissist are needed in order to survive.



Normal



A "natural" narcissism is found in women who successfully transcend the epiphany of not having a penis.

When children first see others naked they notice not everything is as similar as they thought. To a girl, there is something missing on her body. This is then substituted by her using her nature given gifts - making herself beautiful and thus being told how cute she is, desired, admired... This is why all women no matter age or martial status wish to be admired, told they are beautiful, like to take long hours making themselves pretty...etc This is all good unless it evolves into pathological narcissism.

Girls that do not overcome the knowing of the difference in sexual organs become to resent men for having a penis. They want that penis too, yet they can not have it, so they become to hate it. They also want to be just as men who have it, so they start acting like men, they start to compete with men. This also means that the father did not do his role due to his absence or was a doormat husband. Thus you have feminists or female men haters, women who reject men, reject oral sex...etc - dominant,phallic, emotionally cold mothers (who later raise their sons as vaginal man) and the circle goes on...

It can also be said that girls who feel this constant need to compete with men did not solve the Oedipus complex. In case of man unsuccessful solution of the complex (unable to detach the sexual bond with the mother) this manifests in "pussy men" and spoiled men who are morally irresponsible.
Oedipus successfully solved results in men being competitive with each other and women developing narcissism. When men win (like in sports and such) they are happy since on the subconscious level they defeat their own father who was "steeling their mother from them" and they get admiration from a woman (what used to be their mother). This is why men like competition. (this also relates to before post)

Delight
1st October 2013, 21:11
Was this an article or Kor's? it was very sound IMO.


I wrote that. I did have it "pre-written" from some other occasion, but it is my work.

It is ofc based on Freud and Lacan..etc i do not take credit for the science...I just wrote it in a manner that can be understood. No fancy words, no overly abstract descriptions..etc

Main point of it was that...there is much that goes on and much that happens for which one, you, me...US...can take responsibility. Born into bondage takes a whole different meaning when you look at it from this (the before post) perspective. Saying everything is in ruin due to "higher forces" is...partially correct. But putting all the blame on that and ignoring the "elephant" right next to you is a one way road to nothingness.

And to be frank...with proper awareness...much could be avoided. No "secret government" controller can force you much or the entire population if the population is aware...not (or not just) of the shadow manipulators but about THEMSELVES. And there is no need to sit in the pyramid or spend ur life meditating under a tree...all you have to do is face the mirror but this is where most fail.


Thanks for your writings.
I feel that this responsibility to face the mirror is exactly what is asked if we choose to hold personal power. In each personal life, we experience the parameters of belief and expectation. If we believe it is not our ability to change (because it looks like circumstance) then we are lost at the start. It just makes perfect sense and has been my experience to accept the mirroring. But I do not believe an empty heart has the courage and the heart has been the target of the culture. Narcissm seems like its poster child to heal.

I may not understand you but I don't find your description about women and penises exactly the case? It may not matter but I think that the same dynamics of value that the system uses to keep us at war with ourselves makes women competitive with men.

The examples of what still happens to women across the globe shows that being born a woman sets up one to be less than men. I doubt that the penis (other than the fact than boys have one) sets up a need to strive to have what men enjoy.

It is my observation of narcissm that the basic problems is the inner emptiness of self satisfaction that is overlaid by the striving to succeed as a human doing in a world of objects. I believe that this is deliberately programmed to prevent people from achieving humanity.

Narcissm does not have a good reputation at all, so no one in her right mind would seek to claim that "label" and it is a label for a constellation of symptoms. It is considered to be a hopeless "disorder". In fact, I could not find any strong source that expects it is possible to change.

I cannot trust any of these views because there is a good "control system"reason to identify narcissm as an incurable condition. It suits the system to have this inner emptiness and the harm it perpetrates on others. People able to manage deep inner satisfaction are not persuadable as those who seek constantly to fill the inner holes. I believe that what is called narcissm is the present result of a guidance system that aimed us farther and farther away from body mind coherence.

I really appreciate the further work of Jung that takes the subject of psychology into the realm of archetype and meaning that transcends the simple biological "differences" of sex and role and the behavior. To me male narcissists are no more prevalent than female but the influence is more "socially" significant because of the power differences and role differences between men and women.

You said:

"Narcissist uses other people as a prop and as a prop they can discard them if need be. Narcissist will not care for it's extended family unless it will see a use in them - if it needs them. There is a need for constant praise, fan clubs, people applauding, autobiographies, doing extreme sports with a lot of media attention...etc"

This is just exactly the energy vampire who is starving and cannot be filled. This is not female or male. I am fairly convinced that the starvation comes form trauma systematically applied to humans and that healing trauma and the body mind is what is asked of responsible people.

I don't believe a head on assault would work with narcissm as the psyche is just too fragile. But a whole systems approach will deal with narcissm too. Here is a good article with many suggestions of healing trauma from an energetic and balancing approach. http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/TRAUMA%20RELEASE.htm

Thanks Kor! Maggie

Kimberley
1st October 2013, 21:37
grannyfranny, The Russo interview was new to me today when I was searching for more information to back what I learned, only this year, I do not remember the sources that I read earlier in the year.

So Russo is not the only source making these claims.

I hear what you are saying...and am certainly an advocate for women being "allowed" to pursue what ever they chose to pursue. And I also feel that is is unfortunate that women who chose to be an at home mother are not valued as highly as they deserve to be valued.

I was indoctrinated to believe that my worth was based on how much money I made. And I blame the Women's Rights Movement on that, especially now that I have learned it was orchestrated to divide and conquer.

My grandmother was born in march of 1908 and when women got the right to vote in 1920 she was 13 her sister was 21. The voting age was 18 as it is now. My grandmother, under aged, and her sister went and voted in 3 different towns...I take after my grandmother :-)

Much love!

Kimberley
2nd October 2013, 13:48
:bump: :hug:

sheme
2nd October 2013, 15:27
Interesting extract from -

Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars
Page 43
By the time his son must go to war,
father (with jelly for a backbone) will
slam a gun into junior's hand before fa
ther will risk the censure of his
peers, or make a hypocrite of himself
by crossing the investment he has in
his own personal opinion or self-esteem. Junior will go to war or father
will be embarrassed. So junior will go to war, the true purpose not
withstanding.
Factor III - Mother
The female element of human society is ruled by emotion first and logic
second. In the battle between logic
and imagination, imagination always
wins, fantasy prevails, maternal instin
ct dominates so that the child comes
first and the future comes second. A
woman with a newborn baby is too
starry-eyed to see a wealthy man'
s cannon fodder or a cheap source of
slave labor. A woman must, however
, be conditioned to accept the
transition to "reality" when it comes, or sooner.
As the transition becomes more difficult to manage, the family unit must
be carefully disintegrate
d, and state-controlled public education and state-
operated child-care centers must be
become more common and legally
enforced so as to begin the detachment of the child from the mother and
father at an earlier age. Inoculation
of behavioral drugs
[Ritalin] can speed
the transition for the child (mandato
ry). Caution: A woman's impulsive
anger can override her fear. An ir
ate woman's power must never be
underestimated, and her power ove
r a pussy-whipped husband must
likewise never be underestimated.
It got women the vote in 1920.

Mulder
2nd October 2013, 19:41
Our Most Important Mission Ever: Stop Violence Against Women Now

No, the most important mission is to stop violence against all people - no violence against men, women, children, old people, young people,...

Tesla_WTC_Solution
2nd October 2013, 20:04
I find the whole "women hate men because women have no penis" argument to be disgusting.

Any educated man with a conscience refuses to allow his penis to dictate the course of his life.

It's not possible to be a Master of anything unless you master yourself.

And it's not because of what women are missing that they resent male sexual aggression.
It's because of what is forced on them when men can't keep it in their pants.

P.S. my son was raised by a mean refrigerator mom and he masturbates all the time.
I would say that his penis is a source of support in his life and not a source of shame,
and it's not just "little boy looking for his mother" in life -- almost all little kids learn how to masturbate, male or female; it doesn't matter.

Sexual pleasure isn't just for men. They love taking ownership of the whole thing though, so they can force women to maintain men's needs instead of their own sexual schedule.
Men tend to want sex all the time and it's over a couple minutes.
Women tend to want it somewhat less often and for them good sex is more than some teenaged 30 seconds in the backseat.

Men and their almighty penis honestly isn't ENOUGH for most women, hence the vibrator, etc.
Women don't really want a penis of their own as much as a penis that doesn't fail.

Gone in 60 Seconds -- was that movie really about cars?

I don't buy into all this phallic crap.
Also I was pissed off when I dreamed about a tower and some pissoff (sorry) tried to tell me I dreamed the penis because it's scary. LOL
Sorry, no, I think it had more to do with 9/11 than kawk.

grannyfranny100
2nd October 2013, 20:57
Kimberly, you said "I was indoctrinated to believe that my worth was based on how much money I made. And I blame the Women's Rights Movement on that, especially now that I have learned it was orchestrated to divide and conquer."

Wow have things changed and I can understand your dismay with Women's Lib being the cause of your value being measured by your paycheck. No doubt you are also suppose to be gorgeous, a fabulous house decorator, gourmet cook, an impeccable mother and a tireless whore in bed. Wow. No wonder more and more educated women are forgoing motherhood and leaving that to the welfare moms and their questionable parenting skills.

I know Gloria Steinem was also supposedly paid by the CIA to promote Women's Lib so why didn't the Rockefellers fix the wage inequity problem that still exists if they wanted to collect more taxes? I guess because of their divide and conquer agenda? What do you think?

BTW I love the avatar of you swinging. Reminds me of a Soho neighbor in he 1970's who hung a hammock from the top of the second story and one entered the hammock on the ground floor with it arcing 15 ft. more or less in each direction. It was amazing. (Oops off topic).

Did the guys of your generation feel stressed that you might make more money than they did and find that to be intimidating? What was your perception and what about the males on this thread, does it bother you if the woman makes more than you do?

greybeard
3rd October 2013, 22:04
The music industry promotes the downgrading and abuse of women by turning them into sex objects.
That's how they make their money.
Sinead says so here.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64009-Miley-Cyrus-receives-an-open-letter-from-Sinead-O-Connor&p=739207&viewfull=1#post739207

norman
3rd October 2013, 23:12
The music industry promotes the downgrading and abuse of women by turning them into sex objects.
That's how they make their money.
Sinead says so here.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64009-Miley-Cyrus-receives-an-open-letter-from-Sinead-O-Connor&p=739207&viewfull=1#post739207

It also makes men look like dicks, and that bothers me more.

Agape
3rd October 2013, 23:42
It's a problem .. if it not was global issue of earthly society this thread would not feel and sound the same and it might actually be titled ''Female abuse of man'' ,
imagine turning all the regimes to matriarchies ? It would be equally torturous .

There's a feeling of shame associated with every polarity and each gender, for feeling incomplete .
It has nothing to do with the outdated Freudian model , not for most people of our generation anyway . Our parent generation, many of them have been bought to simplistic psychologies, philosophies, rules of genetics , importance of simple algebra and they keep discovering the 'new world' carefully now, through our eyes and they fear it .
It's very strange experiences but I think of my mum more often as I'd of my child than vice versa. We had to absorb exponentially more information, views, whole systems , life experiences in short time and there was no one to guide us through, too often .
Now these children , our parents so to say are crying for the old simpler world that does not exist anymore neither we can make a miracle of offering them a better one instantly .

There is strong male dominance prevalent in all cultures but it took few thousand years to build it that way, and it's nature pushing for balance , now as ever ..

the ones with more power should exercise more restraint but do they . The 'big new world' has started , and we have often , no one to follow than our conscience .

We have to keep to that faith that something is essentially , quite the same in all of us, whether it's called 'biological intelligence' or 'primordial wisdom' ,
it's beyond gender .


:clock:

norman
3rd October 2013, 23:50
........imagine turning all the regimes to matriarchies ? It would be equally torturous .....


......it's beyond gender............. .


:clock:

Alien or not, I love you already.......... :pound:

Agape
3rd October 2013, 23:55
Thank you Norman, I'm proud to hear that ...:hug: back at you ..

norman
4th October 2013, 00:37
Thank you Norman, I'm proud to hear that ...:hug: back at you ..

An honest gender is not a place from which to inflict harm ( OR SUBVERSION ! ), it's a place to get on with, as gently as spiritually possible.

Raw masculine, or raw feminine is so base that as long as it's kept well out of range of the dodgy intellect and the prolific crookery that twists it for a multitude of bogus reasons, it's just dandy to be sexual with a sexy partner, however family specific, or not.

Agape
4th October 2013, 01:22
Thank you Norman, I'm proud to hear that ...:hug: back at you ..

An honest gender is not a place from which to inflict harm ( OR SUBVERSION ! ), it's a place to get on with, as gently as spiritually possible.

Raw masculine, or raw feminine is so base that as long as it's kept well out of range of the dodgy intellect and the prolific crookery that twists it for a multitude of bogus reasons, it's just dandy to be sexual with a sexy partner, however family specific, or not.

Life is quite a magician isn't it, it turns you to what suits you best .

Both genders are obviously meant to lead to multileveled culminative experience ..

if either of them does not fit right , it can't happen and there the whole meaning of humanity feels lost in you.

Pure means also 'fitting' , it's a key to your biological credit card, now give it someone to play with and check your account on that later ;)

norman
4th October 2013, 01:26
......Pure means also 'fitting' , it's a key to your biological credit card, now give it someone to play with and check your account on that later ;)

VERY so bang on there missy.

Flash
4th October 2013, 03:14
Was this an article or Kor's? it was very sound IMO.


I wrote that. I did have it "pre-written" from some other occasion, but it is my work.

It is ofc based on Freud and Lacan..etc i do not take credit for the science...I just wrote it in a manner that can be understood. No fancy words, no overly abstract descriptions..etc

Main point of it was that...there is much that goes on and much that happens for which one, you, me...US...can take responsibility. Born into bondage takes a whole different meaning when you look at it from this (the before post) perspective. Saying everything is in ruin due to "higher forces" is...partially correct. But putting all the blame on that and ignoring the "elephant" right next to you is a one way road to nothingness.

And to be frank...with proper awareness...much could be avoided. No "secret government" controller can force you much or the entire population if the population is aware...not (or not just) of the shadow manipulators but about THEMSELVES. And there is no need to sit in the pyramid or spend ur life meditating under a tree...all you have to do is face the mirror but this is where most fail.




I noticed the females my brothers married were taking on the shadow of some of my mother's characteristics (compulsion to repeat??)



Yes.

Men pick women based on the "image" of their mother.
Women pick men based on the "image" of their father.
Image - characteristics

If a man chooses a female that is too much like their mother, they might suffer the impotency at home, while being very potent in some other bed. This is due to the unconscious knowing of forbidden incest relationship he had with his mother as a small child (aka oral phase). The concept of "infidelity" is also related to this. Both genders, single or bonded, have hidden fantasies and desires.






This led me to study narcissism.

I am convinced narcissm is not incurable!!




Narcissism:

To put it short....



Pathological



A narcissist is made when parents abuse their children. The abuse is done by "embodiment" of the child within the parent.


In practice this is seen when either parent says something like: "look what it (he or she) is doing to me".

That is when the child does something the parent dislikes. It is the narcissistic need of the parents that is left unsatisfied, when the child does not live up to expectations.

The grades in school, the after school volleyball class, the piano lessons, the art club...etc The better the child does the better the reward, as parent's satisfy their own needs. Child can see that parents react with approval when grades are high and when medals and other awards are brought home. What develops inside the child is this - they will like me more, if i will be and do better. This is buying love and a narcissist is "born".

So it is clear that in most cases the parents or one of them already was a narcissist, as it was filling it's own needs by abusing it's own child. (the post before talks about needs and control of them)

Typically the narcissists live in a home full of mirrors, they can not but admire themselves. They also need them at their place of work. They act a lot, they play the role of themselves all the time. Each opportunity has a different mask, it depends on the impression they want to leave on their audience. They excel at bluffing and always want to be the center of attention. If not they feel bad so they make sure they are by talking out loud, telling jokes, talking over others and doing whatever it takes to raise their "social value".
Their self esteem depends on it as they respect themselves only as much as their public respects and praises them. They pick people around them based on the value they can get from them. People as friends, people they date with and marry. There has to be something of value about those people. So they go and join clubs such as Lions or Rotary...
Narcissist uses other people as a prop and as a prop they can discard them if need be. Narcissist will not care for it's extended family unless it will see a use in them - if it needs them. There is a need for constant praise, fan clubs, people applauding, autobiographies, doing extreme sports with a lot of media attention...etc

For if there is no such thing the narcissist will not feel loved which will lead to depression. Narcissistic people are in truth very lonely. A sad narcissist will tell others how all this "bad things" happen to it all the time and how unfair that is.

Narcissistic people are mostly found in entertainment industry and politics. The more competent ones also take leading positions in companies, as they will do everything to succeed - it raises their social value. The down side is that, they care for their own benefit and their own success and have their own interests at heart.

Today's society is very narcissistic. This is shown through "main stream culture" and alike. Today's society also demands from a person to be narcissistic - at least in part. The "always confident" and other traits of the narcissist are needed in order to survive.



Normal



A "natural" narcissism is found in women who successfully transcend the epiphany of not having a penis.

When children first see others naked they notice not everything is as similar as they thought. To a girl, there is something missing on her body. This is then substituted by her using her nature given gifts - making herself beautiful and thus being told how cute she is, desired, admired... This is why all women no matter age or martial status wish to be admired, told they are beautiful, like to take long hours making themselves pretty...etc This is all good unless it evolves into pathological narcissism.

Girls that do not overcome the knowing of the difference in sexual organs become to resent men for having a penis. They want that penis too, yet they can not have it, so they become to hate it. They also want to be just as men who have it, so they start acting like men, they start to compete with men. This also means that the father did not do his role due to his absence or was a doormat husband. Thus you have feminists or female men haters, women who reject men, reject oral sex...etc - dominant,phallic, emotionally cold mothers (who later raise their sons as vaginal man) and the circle goes on...

It can also be said that girls who feel this constant need to compete with men did not solve the Oedipus complex. In case of man unsuccessful solution of the complex (unable to detach the sexual bond with the mother) this manifests in "pussy men" and spoiled men who are morally irresponsible.
Oedipus successfully solved results in men being competitive with each other and women developing narcissism. When men win (like in sports and such) they are happy since on the subconscious level they defeat their own father who was "steeling their mother from them" and they get admiration from a woman (what used to be their mother). This is why men like competition. (this also relates to before post)

Just a note here:

Freud is now being described as mostly wrong, and still more when it comes to women.

I would not use Freuds work to base any of my thinking. I do admire the guy because he was the first one to at least try studying human sub/unconscious, and it did lead to where we can now study it much better.

It also lead to his nephew using subconsicous studies for marketing purposes.........

As for the envy of penis, this is bull.

Freud was there in the 19th century. Women were so much in bondage in their role, they could never speak openly about their inner feelings, and less about their private life (victorian epoch). Which women in those times would not have wanted to be more free, as men were?

I certainly would have prefered being a man in those times, or even now in Afghanistan. This is not penis envy, this is the slave wanting to have a share of the master's life and well being. It is as if we were saying black slaved had skin envy.

And then pushing it to girls who want to compete not having solved the oedipus complex, or having to be narcissists to be real women (all their kids would be unhealthy, women do give a lot to their offspring), and men attached to their mom being pussy men, please, give me brake.

Plus, competition in men by the way is maiinly based on testosterone, a normally occuring hormone in men, not to oedipus complex.

I studied Freud 25 years ago, it gave me vertigo then, with stomach uneasiness, and it still does.

If there is anything that it interesting from those times, I would many times over prefer Jung, his disciple, who, by the way. distanced himself from Freud.

--------------------------


Also, Freud's work was barely scientific. He did try, but science in psychology is just nowadays starting to make advances. You had a bit of science in the early 20th century with psychometry, but very little. You also had Pavlov's dogs experiment for behavioral training demonstrations. Science in psychology started in the 40's (of course the military had it in secret for a long time), and even in the 80's there were no great scientific break through yet. Only now is it becoming real science with break though, thanks to scanners and other technologies.

greybeard
4th October 2013, 08:16
Yes Flash
I agree with you.
Jung was a very spiritual person and his work a credit to him.
No real "cure" without heart.
The energy that comes through a therapist tuned into the energy of heart is extremely beneficial.
For my self, I aware of the female within me.
I just dont get male abuse of women.
How can a man be truly happy if his significant other is not?

Chris

Kor
4th October 2013, 09:15
Freud is now being described as mostly wrong, and still more when it comes to women.

....

I studied Freud 25 years ago, it gave me vertigo then, with stomach uneasiness, and it still does.



Apparently, given some of your comments, you did not understand Freud while studying it.

Freud is lately mostly being "discredited" by feminism, which is nothing but an ideology and by researches who try to tell you that they can "change your neurons" to improve your mental state or remove problems from it. Feminism especially is becoming a big problem since it is finding it's way into the core of the society via politics and law making.

Other than that, Freud and others (since it is hardly based only on Freud) like Donald Winnicott and Jacques Lacan..etc are quite solid.


The society is deeply sick, love and light will not cure it, neither will lobotomy or psychopharmacology. Freud did not have all the answers but he established a very good basics for it.

Besides it is better for most humans to not know too much about themselves.They simply can not take it.

Agape
4th October 2013, 10:39
Besides it is better for most humans to not know too much about themselves.They simply can not take it.

Hehehe ;) Is it why they make friends with dogs .

gigha
4th October 2013, 10:50
Heheheheheheh well you would know. My friend

araucaria
4th October 2013, 11:52
One of the main differences between Freud and Jung as expressed by Jung himself is that Freud's focus is on pathological states, whereas Jung's theories make room for the healthy mind.

I would add, as an example, that while Freud sees the damage a father can do to his offspring, he has no place for the good that children can do to their father (and mother), in other words how a healthy relationship works both ways. Here is a professional appraisal of Freud (my hasty translation):


Freud’s psychic system is based on the dramatic, pathogenic opposition between the conscious and the unconscious, between wild dynamism and agents of repression. According to Freud, man bristles to saturation point with barriers and breaks marking out areas of strife and struggle. This intrapsychic war turns each person into a battlefield to which the laws of electric or magnetic assemblies are less applicable than strategic rules transposed from conventional war studies. Opposing forces clash, after the manner of the archetypal struggle of Darkness and Light. The Freudian dynamics of the Libido are thus formed in the fabulatory production of battle narratives, where indecisive victory is preceded by numerous twists and turns [...] The neurotic in us, whether actual or potential, then resembles a veritable microcosm and its existential suffering suddenly makes sense by being caught up in the conflicting destinies of the gods, ever the subject of dreams and mythologies. […] The failure of Freudianism as a science is significant of this constant tendency of modernity to keep up the pretence of breaking with and advancing from traditional man. Instead, the deeper meaning of Freudianism reveals that knowledge about man can only benefit by first confronting all sources of earlier knowledge.

J. J. Wunenburger, « Freudisme : cité de savants ou secte néo-gnostique ? », L’homme et la société, N°s 59-62, 1981, p. 132

Flash
4th October 2013, 12:09
Freud is now being described as mostly wrong, and still more when it comes to women.

....

I studied Freud 25 years ago, it gave me vertigo then, with stomach uneasiness, and it still does.



Apparently, given some of your comments, you did not understand Freud while studying it.

Freud is lately mostly being "discredited" by feminism, which is nothing but an ideology and by researches who try to tell you that they can "change your neurons" to improve your mental state or remove problems from it. Feminism especially is becoming a big problem since it is finding it's way into the core of the society via politics and law making.

Other than that, Freud and others (since it is hardly based only on Freud) like Donald Winnicott and Jacques Lacan..etc are quite solid.


The society is deeply sick, love and light will not cure it, neither will lobotomy or psychopharmacology. Freud did not have all the answers but he established a very good basics for it.

Besides it is better for most humans to not know too much about themselves.They simply can not take it.

This sentence put in bold is arrogant in my views.

I won't argue with you about Freud, in my book, he does not worth argumentation. And you just stiffled all the knowledge/know how I could have brought on the topic.

Avalon and arrogant statements do not fit together Kor, you may as well learn now. When I wrote what I wrote, I had the intuition you would react that way. Why? Because I have seen it over and over again by French psychoanalysts that are sometimes heavily Freudian in their approach. You did confirm my very skewed judgment (some psychoanalysts are rather good and I could name a few). I am French speaking Kor, Freud has been in our backyard since its inception into this societal mind. And unless you are a full fledge psychologist or psychiatrist, I have most probably studied it more than you did, and I studied other approaches quite in depth as well. In my view, there is other approaches that are a lot more efficient towards human inner progress.

The thread is not about Freud, but about male abuse of women. So I will come back on topic.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Besides it is better for most humans to not know too much about themselves.They simply can not take it.

Hehehe ;) Is it why they make friends with dogs .

Agape, this statement of Kor was most probably directed at me. And I do not have a dog.

Flash
4th October 2013, 12:18
One of the main differences between Freud and Jung as expressed by Jung himself is that Freud's focus is on pathological states, whereas Jung's theories make room for the healthy mind.

I would add, as an example, that while Freud sees the damage a father can do to his offspring, he has no place for the good that children can do to their father (and mother), in other words how a healthy relationship works both ways. Here is a professional appraisal of Freud (my hasty translation):


Freud’s psychic system is based on the dramatic, pathogenic opposition between the conscious and the unconscious, between wild dynamism and agents of repression. According to Freud, man bristles to saturation point with barriers and breaks marking out areas of strife and struggle. This intrapsychic war turns each person into a battlefield to which the laws of electric or magnetic assemblies are less applicable than strategic rules transposed from conventional war studies. Opposing forces clash, after the manner of the archetypal struggle of Darkness and Light. The Freudian dynamics of the Libido are thus formed in the fabulatory production of battle narratives, where indecisive victory is preceded by numerous twists and turns [...] The neurotic in us, whether actual or potential, then resembles a veritable microcosm and its existential suffering suddenly makes sense by being caught up in the conflicting destinies of the gods, ever the subject of dreams and mythologies. […] The failure of Freudianism as a science is significant of this constant tendency of modernity to keep up the pretence of breaking with and advancing from traditional man. Instead, the deeper meaning of Freudianism reveals that knowledge about man can only benefit by first confronting all sources of earlier knowledge.

J. J. Wunenburger, « Freudisme : cité de savants ou secte néo-gnostique ? », L’homme et la société, N°s 59-62, 1981, p. 132

You are right here, Freud based his theories on pathological minds, and spread it to all human beings, even the non pathological. Also, he did not take into account the cultural and societal environments of his time and country, which did biais quite a lot his findings. To me, those two are major problems with Freudian approaches. Once again, he did have the courage to work on the psyche, and try to theorize about it, and put words on conscious, unconscious, subconscious, which is helpful in understanding the psyche, but I would not push too much the use of his approach with people.

And i would not talk of penis envy, for god sake. Those are societal. We do not know what it is to have an equilibrated society between men and women, we have not seen it for - nobody remembers if it has ever been on the planet. I bet anything that those theories will disappear in a society where equilibrium between male and female is reached.

araucaria
4th October 2013, 12:27
And i would not talk of penis envy, for god sake. Those are societal. We do not know what it is to have an equilibrated society between men and women, we have not seen it for - nobody remembers if it has ever been on the planet. I bet anything that those theories will disappear in a society where equilibrium between male and female is reached.
Societal, yes. Meaning that Oedipus himself didn't have an Oedipus complex: he and his parents were messed around with by a time travelling remote viewer, not the same thing at all.

Flash
4th October 2013, 12:32
And i would not talk of penis envy, for god sake. Those are societal. We do not know what it is to have an equilibrated society between men and women, we have not seen it for - nobody remembers if it has ever been on the planet. I bet anything that those theories will disappear in a society where equilibrium between male and female is reached.
Societal, yes. Meaning that Oedipus himself didn't have an Oedipus complex: he and his parents were messed around with by a time travelling remote viewer, not the same thing at all.

LOL, the best, and unexpected, answer I have seen;)

ulli
4th October 2013, 12:43
Despite vast amounts of knowledge some people can still have small minds,
verbally butting against ideas simply because they might find it entertaining,
while there are others, who may never have had a formal education,
but their hearts are huge, and they can assess the overall dynamics of any situation,
and their aim is to assist others to grow in understanding of life itself.

Although I have great respect for the work of Freud and even more for Jung's work, my favorite by far is Alfred Adler....
simply because his approach cut a clear passage to mental sanity.

Most people's actions betray their instinctive patterning, which is connected to the first and second chakras, hence their gender plays such large role in how they act and also how they are expected to act.

Male...the Creative
Female....the Receptive.
According to the I Ching.
And according to astrology:
Male...Mars and Pluto (Pluto being the higher octave of Mars)
Female ....Venus and Neptune (Neptune being the higher octave of Venus)

And also
Male....the sun
Female...the moon.
The moon represents the female energy of motherhood,
the fulfillment, after Venus has done her job, with "how do I look, am I pretty?"
The moon governs protection, family heritage and roots, and also security, especially emotional security.

So in the Moon both women and men come together to form a home, a family, a shelter and haven from the strife of daytime activities, which are governed by the sun.

Women as well as men pass through two phases, first the dance, of mutual attraction....then the settling down as parents....
before the third old -age phase where gender issues no longer matter.

Since most of society has lost the understanding of what the archetypes mean, confusion about roles and ideal standards abound.

Delight
4th October 2013, 16:15
Freud is lately mostly being "discredited" by feminism, which is nothing but an ideology and by researches who try to tell you that they can "change your neurons" to improve your mental state or remove problems from it. Feminism especially is becoming a big problem since it is finding it's way into the core of the society via politics and law making.
The society is deeply sick, love and light will not cure it, neither will lobotomy or psychopharmacology. Freud did not have all the answers but he established a very good basics for it.
Besides it is better for most humans to not know too much about themselves.They simply can not take it.

I just do not agree with you in the pessimistic view of humans. We are not the same in consciousness as we were at other "historic" moments. What I appreciate about Jung is that he was aware that there is a mythic aspect of human consciousness and that we are not divorced from the natural world but make meaning that transcends p[articular circumstance.

I very much feel compassion for those who do not know that not only can we change our neurons but we do and when in conscious awareness achieve changes quite readily ... We are NOT our biology and our biology is very malleable. We create meaning, make new and more beneficial neuronal connections, make new creative links from head to heart to gut to toes, undo trauma and rewrite the well worn and familiar responses.

I feel very great empathy for the distress that arises from not only the confusion of what "mankind" may do, but the abject hopeless feeling of imprisonment when these "isms" are just what we agreed to behave in. Any sense of defeat and stagnation due primarily to ignorance.

music
5th October 2013, 04:36
While abuse of any kind is abhorrent, it serves nothing to perpetuate a divide based on gender. I would say that not only every one, but every thing in physical reality is composed 50/50 of masculine/feminine energy. What we recognise as gender or sexual orientation are merely degrees of expression and non-expression of the polar principles. There is abuse aplenty in this world, but perpetuating a feminine/masculine divide can only serve to perpetuate duality, and to perpetuate abuse, in my view. On this site are the very people who have the tools to see past duality, and to seek unity. Let's not be diverted from the matter at hand. Having a thread devoted to male abuse of women is no more valid or needed than say a thread devoted to European abuse of other peoples, heterosexual abuse of homosexuals, abuse of children by either gender, abuse of anyone based on race, creed or culture, etc., the list is as endless as the fear-based human's capacity for harm.

Let's make that conscious step away from fear, and embrace love and unity.

Kor
5th October 2013, 09:18
This sentence put in bold is arrogant in my views.

I won't argue with you about Freud, in my book, he does not worth argumentation.

Avalon and arrogant statements do not fit together Kor, you may as well learn now. When I wrote what I wrote, I had the intuition you would react that way




You are correct we can not debate Freud and what originated from his basic work.

Arrogant?

Argue? Am i being sent away (or even worse) based on a subjective personal premise?

Well i do not want to argue opinions here..



Best theories are always the ones proven in practice.

The abuse from men (and also women) ends when proper practice is applied and the "modern principles" (although cognitive principles for example are sound) of psychology mostly fail at this - the state of society itself is the proof. No to mention the new official (western accepted) policies that diminish the role of a mother in the family. Etc..


Let me try to put "can not take it" in a manner that is more "out there" :


There are "time gates" and when the time is "right " the gates open. If the gates open ahead of time there is a problem. Human experiences a shock. The shock can be so great it actually works counterproductive despite the beneficial nature of the information it can bring to awareness.

Knowing too much might lead one into plugging out their eyes as in - if the eyes did not show me the right way in my life i do not need them (Oedipus).

Sometimes the time never comes.



@Delight

The state of ones consciousness will not "change your neurons" neither will help people with trauma (and the world is heavily traumatized on daily basis) esp if the trauma is "deep". The word consciousness itself is being abused by the new age movement.


I ll leave it at that, seems i wrote "enough" in this thread.

The Truth Is In There
5th October 2013, 09:46
humanity has become totally estranged from nature and its principles. this has been done on purpose and it's facilitated even more in today's society. this unnaturalness starts at birth (one could even say during pregnancy) and continues throughout life.

only someone who knows how it should be will recognize what long-term harm is being done by everything being NOT as it should be. i'm sure indigenous people who still live close to nature could only shake their heads at our self-created problems.

Agape
5th October 2013, 09:50
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24402244

Anoushka Shankar discusses impact of Delhi gang rape


Musician Anoushka Shankar says she was prompted to reveal her experience of sexual abuse after learning of the gang rape and murder of a woman in Delhi.

Shankar, daughter of legendary Indian sitar player Ravi Shankar, said in February she had been abused by "a man my parents trusted" in her childhood.

Her revelation followed the fatal attack on an Indian student, for which four men have been sentenced to death.

"Her story is the apex of millions of stories," Shankar told BBC Radio 4.

Speaking on the Front Row programme, she said: "No-one I knew could help being affected by the gravity and intensity of that attack - and if it resonates with something in our experience then obviously it doubles the impact of hearing a story like that.

"I felt quite conscious as an Indian woman that there was a very unique moment happening where the entire world's attention was on sexual violence and on the role and position of women in India.

"I felt almost an obligation [to talk about my experience]. It didn't feel dragged out of me. If I was ever going to talk about my story, that felt like the right moment."

Shankar, 32, took the decision to talk about her experiences in a video, recorded in her London home, in which she appealed for people to support a campaign in memory of the gang rape victim.

"As a child I suffered sexual and emotional abuse for several years at the hands of a man my parents trusted implicitly," she said.

She added the attacks had included "groping, touching and verbal abuse".

Class system
Reflecting on the statement, the musician told Front Row's John Wilson: "It was something I never spoke to the media about.

"It had never felt like something relevant in a public context until this moment where I thought 'hang on, it's important for people to realise that this kind of thing can happen to anyone, anywhere'.

"I think there's a class issue in India where there can be an assumption that things like this don't happen to people from upper classes or who are privileged. I think part of what shocked people within India was that [the victim] was a middle-class girl. It's so ridiculous."

The musician has responded to the attack, and tried to address its causes, with a track on her new album, Traces Of You.

She said the song, which references the 23-year-old victim's name in its title, tries to capture a sense of the horror of the attack.

The album, recorded with producer Nitin Sawhney and her sister Norah Jones, also addresses the death of her father last year.

Shankar said her experiences had informed the spirit of the record, and brought a sense of "resilience" to the music.

"It's not necessarily about the passing of my father, it's about me passing through the passing of my father.

"There's a way that we all go through horrible and painful things and I'm not nullifying it in any way when I say we do go on.

"My childhood experiences were one of the big experiences for me [but] I know as a woman I've come through that.

"At some cost, but I've come through it."

You can hear the full interview with Anoushka Shankar on BBC Radio 4's Front Row at 19:15 BST on 4 October, 2013. It will then be available on the iPlayer : http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03bsbb8

uVbLbw8a-ow


There's still very strong stigma associated with woman abuse, not only in India of course .

From Anoushka Shankar :

L8hrF2CGTWY

Soundtrack: Oceanic (Part 1) by Anoushka Shankar

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion

or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up

from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,

am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any

origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,

first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24217703

These people were convicted to death, for the gang rape and murder of student in Delhi , Dec 16 2012 .
It has shaken India, me, all world , many of us who had experienced violence from men , violence in any form .

I do not support any death sentences . Unless you can prove me that those people are unreprovable, uneducable and unlovable , just killing people solves nothing.

The problem is somewhere else ..

the problem is with education or rather lack of, with alcoholism, unemployment , hunger, extreme poverty and then again, lack of education and social stigmas not easy to break.

In India especially, if you are woman and start to complain, everyone looks bad at you . You are being blamed for not being good enough, for not protecting yourself enough, yes we could all better sit home ,
never go anywhere, experience only safe 'home abuse' and better never talk about it because it's shame to do.

It matters not whether it's your Christian or Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist mentality , since you're not supposed to talk any bad of your parents,
of your superiors, as a kid of adults in general,

if you do, you're automatically distrusted and fall to wrong light and everyone disfavour .

It's a fact rather than fiction, questioning authorities hurts .

Reporting any socially inconvenient truth hurts.

skippy
5th October 2013, 10:06
humanity has become totally estranged from nature and its principles. this has been done on purpose and it's facilitated even more in today's society. this unnaturalness starts at birth (one could even say during pregnancy) and continues throughout life..

arCITMfxvEc


..
Best theories are always the ones proven in practice.


or .. Nothing is more practical than a good theory. :)

Jenny
5th October 2013, 13:12
Eckhardt Tolle on The female Painbody.

Women all do feel this pain when we read, hear or experience a male with a cold heart and an granite like ego. Males with a developed female energy feel that pain as well. Only those men understand about the abuse of women through the ages. Women who find excuses for cold ego males have dissociated from their ability to feel the female painbody because the pain would be unbearable.
I understand that totally.
But it does't help a bit. Processing the pain is what works..every time again..

http://brendamarroyauthor.com/2013/01/22/lagniappe-eckhart-tolle-and-the-collective-female-pain-body/

The Collective Female Pain-Body

“The collective dimension of the pain-body has different strands in it. Tribes, nations, races, all have their own collective pain-body, some heavier than others, and most members of that tribe, nation, or race have a share in it to a greater or lesser degree.

Almost every woman has her share in the collective female pain-body, which tends to become activated particularly just prior to the time of menstruation At that time many women become overwhelmed by intense negative emotion.



The suppression of the feminine principle especially over the past two thousand years has enabled the ego to gain absolute supremacy in the collective human psyche. Although women have egos, of course, the ego can take root and grow more easily in the male form than in the female. This is because women are less mind-identified than men. They are more in touch with the inner body and the intelligence of the organism where the intuitive faculties originate. The female form is less rigidly encapsulated than the male, has greater openness and sensitivity toward other life-forms, and is more attuned to the natural world.

If the balance between male and female energies had not been destroyed on our planet, the ego’s growth would have been greatly curtailed. We would not have declared war on nature, and we would not be so completely alienated from our Being.

Nobody knows the exact figure because records were not kept, but it seems certain that during a three-hundred year period between three and five million women were tortured and killed by the ‘Holy Inquisition’, an institution founded by the Roman Catholic Church to suppress heresy. This surely ranks together with the Holocaust as one of the darkest chapters in human history. It was enough for a woman to show a love for animals, walk alone in the fields or woods, or gather medicinal plants to be branded a witch, then tortured and burned at the stake. The sacred feminine was declared demonic, and an entire dimension largely disappeared from human experience. Other cultures and religions, such as Judaism, Islam, and even Buddhism, also suppressed the female dimension, although in a less violent way. Women’s status was reduced to being child bearers and men’s property. Males who denied the feminine even within themselves were now running the world, a world that was totally out of balance.

The rest is history or rather a case history of insanity.

Flash
5th October 2013, 20:13
humanity has become totally estranged from nature and its principles. this has been done on purpose and it's facilitated even more in today's society. this unnaturalness starts at birth (one could even say during pregnancy) and continues throughout life..

arCITMfxvEc


..
Best theories are always the ones proven in practice.


or .. Nothing is more practical than a good theory. :)

This Monty Pythons video seems to resume the whole thread, male ego, budgets, knowing more than nature, woman left powerless, even the penis envy is mentioned!!! lol thanks skippy

Tesla_WTC_Solution
5th October 2013, 21:01
Flash, I saw a book in Goodwill once, called the "Women of Freud".

it talked about how he misunderstood, used, stole from, many of the women in his life and practice.

Jung wasn't completely innocent either, but he wasn't quite as much a misogynist.

it's very insulting to be told that you don't understand freud -- i believe that you do and it's pretty much like you said.

the guy was a hack. the disappointment of his later years, from what I read, was failing to give serious thought to psychic phenomena.

Sammy
6th October 2013, 13:06
Anyone who has cared to spend some time studying the basics of what is known as "the perennial philosophy" understands the core role / symbol of the woman and the man. In addition, this is passed through in Gnosticism as well as many other traditions.

If one listens at around the 8 minute mark to the following interview, one will hear Tim Freke explain this plainly and clearly -

H-_0x4A0vZk

If you believe yourself to be a champion of life and yet do not understand that all life (and all form for that matter) is essentially "the Sacred Feminine" then you are probably in for some "awakenings" (perhaps rude ones) coming your way.

I have found that to honor women, to honor the feminine, the child dearer... is the most direct form of honoring life itself.

Sammy
6th October 2013, 14:53
Wisdom is about loving life. Wisdom is about being a devotee of life.

The male aspect is the mystery of existence, the mystery of being. ... the dreamer of the dream of life. The "Goddess" is the dream. She's all the forms. She's life.

Tim Freke from the above posted video. (around the 8 minute mark).

grannyfranny100
8th October 2013, 21:55
Recently another thread has opened about women feeling abused by men. "Embarrassing RL Situation -- Spouse Stole Car, Drained Accounts, Abandoned Me LOL" http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64063-Embarrassing-RL-Situation-Spouse-Stole-Car-Drained-Accounts-Abandoned-Me-LOL

Some of the stories are quite repulsive. I find myself with a few questions for males. I wonder why some women seem to seek out these types of men. Do you feel women seek what they feel may be a diamond in the rough while ignoring sane guys? Do you feel they do this because they feel they can control the man? Do you think they have been conditioned to seek a subservient role from their parents as role models? Do some women use a victim story line as part of a seduction ritual when you meet them? Are you able to spot these women and sense red flags that being a male rescuer is not appropriate?

wolf_rt
9th October 2013, 02:25
Men don't know why women like assholes... Although it is plain that they do. (It no doubt works the other way too)

It appears to be something to do with self confidence (on both sides).

If one person is extremely 'nice' to another, the recipient of the attention rarely returns the affection. Perhaps the 'idolised' person feels that they could 'do better' since the don't have to work for the affection of the other?
The party with low self confidence perhaps feels that they deserve to be treated badly, and rejects anyone who treats them well as a fool.

I don't think being a victim is attractive to anyone but a predator.

sheme
12th October 2013, 18:37
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24493422

Yet another example of the male abuse of women.

A Mother and her 15 and 11 year old daughters taken to court to insist on the MMR jab the divorced father agreed to forgo the vaccine when he was married because of the vaccine controversy, but now he can put the knife in through the courts female judge has ruled the girls must have the vaccine.

araucaria
12th October 2013, 18:44
Recently another thread has opened about women feeling abused by men. "Embarrassing RL Situation -- Spouse Stole Car, Drained Accounts, Abandoned Me LOL" http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64063-Embarrassing-RL-Situation-Spouse-Stole-Car-Drained-Accounts-Abandoned-Me-LOL

Some of the stories are quite repulsive. I find myself with a few questions for males. I wonder why some women seem to seek out these types of men. Do you feel women seek what they feel may be a diamond in the rough while ignoring sane guys? Do you feel they do this because they feel they can control the man? Do you think they have been conditioned to seek a subservient role from their parents as role models? Do some women use a victim story line as part of a seduction ritual when you meet them? Are you able to spot these women and sense red flags that being a male rescuer is not appropriate?
Sme women live under the wedding illusion: Aisle, Altar, Hymn :)

Eram
12th October 2013, 19:09
humanity has become totally estranged from nature and its principles. this has been done on purpose and it's facilitated even more in today's society. this unnaturalness starts at birth (one could even say during pregnancy) and continues throughout life.

only someone who knows how it should be will recognize what long-term harm is being done by everything being NOT as it should be. i'm sure indigenous people who still live close to nature could only shake their heads at our self-created problems.

We are currently in a "hyper" left hemisphere (left brain) culture, where we are solely focussed on improvement, conquering , analysing, collecting data etc., and we are coming (from recent history) from a "hyper" right hemisphere (right brain),where we were focussed on, feeling, living in the now, emotions, "experiencing" without framework to make sense of it, etc.....
We are out of balance either way.
We need to find a balance between the two, which is by no means an easy effort.

161803398
18th October 2013, 00:36
on the subject of women being too emotional: I always remember that bank manager I met in the cafeteria one day who told me women couldn't be lawyers. I asked him why. He started to tremble; his voice became quite whiney; his head twitched and he said: they are too emotional.

grannyfranny100
27th October 2013, 22:46
Happened upon a funny bit from Bill Maher on masculinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajm0M8j6wqQ

Flash
27th October 2013, 23:10
Here is the video, very funny (dickless armchair warriors, lol that is what he says, not me...lol)

edit: hilarious


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajm0M8j6wqQ

T Smith
28th October 2013, 01:11
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24493422

Yet another example of the male abuse of women.

A Mother and her 15 and 11 year old daughters taken to court to insist on the MMR jab the divorced father agreed to forgo the vaccine when he was married because of the vaccine controversy, but now he can put the knife in through the courts female judge has ruled the girls must have the vaccine.

While I take no side on this particular debate, I have to inject that I do not think this decision was based on sex or male abuse, per se. If the roles were reversed and the mother demanded vaccination, against the father's wishes, the state would have ruled on the side of the mother.