Religion vs Spirituality: Control vs Freedom

[Snowflower]

Rant:

I have been struggling with these thoughts for eleven years - ever since I walked away from my Baha'i community after 35 years as a super active Baha'i. It has taken me all of the past 11 years (I am now 65) to reach the conclusions I'm about to cite here - and would appreciate it if my words are taken as my opinion, my conclusion for my own self, and not as a preaching to others.

I put the Abrahamic religions under "Religion." This includes Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Ba'bi, Baha'i. It also includes Quetzalcoatl and the Aztecs according to my personal understanding, because the history of the people of Quetzalcoatl described him as a white man from the east, and I strongly suspect he came from the same religious roots as all the rest of the Abrahamic traditions. Their behavior with their enemies and their own people argues the same. By the way - Buddhists and Hindus claim Abraham in their ancestry. Abraham had three wives: Sarah (ancestress of Jesus), Hagar (ancestress of Mohammed), and Katura. When Katura was banished into India, she was pregnant (not known and therefore not recorded in the Bible) and was the ancestress of both Buddha and Krishna. That's why I put them into that grouping. Also because of the severe level of control exercised on the followers.

I put the indigenous cultures of the world and their individual spiritual traditions under spirituality. Also the people in our modern age who have turned their backs on organized religions and are seeking truth within.

Anyway the reason for my two groupings has to do with control. Religions control groups of people. Spiritual paths allow individuals their own freedom of self.

I spent a very long time trying to figure out what was the negative in the individual teachings of each religion that was hidden inside "good" things - like, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" which is definitely a good and worthy teaching. But - there had to be something in each religion that was NOT good, that was aimed at something inside people that allowed them to be used as pawns in the world game of control and domination, that would allow them to hear words like, Love thy neighbor, and then kill that neighbor in the name of their god. I couldn't find it, because I was searching the individual teachings and looking for the specific in each religion that was subversive and aimed toward everything AGAINST the teachings - kill thy neighbor if he doesn't look, act, think, and behave just like you do, rather than - love is the power that binds the atoms together, the most powerful force in the universe, love thine enemy as thyself (but, raise the sword against him to prove your devotion to ME.) Psychopathic god, that one, eh?

But, recently I finally figured out the teaching - ONLY ONE - that is in EVERY SINGLE religion that causes this dichotomy between teachings of love and actions of hate.

It is the single word: worship.

Worship - what does it imply? Bow down, subjugate yourself, prostrate yourself before your god, see yourself as less than, unworthy, full of sin, and god (and all earthly representatives) as all knowing, all wise, all wonderful.

Worship gives the King the "divine right to rule," unconditionally - to say "off with his head" to one man and grant a dukedom to another. To take all the wealth of the country and leave his subjects in abject poverty, scraping for survival. This is what worship allows, and causes those same subjects to accept their fate.

Worship promotes a feeling of personal unworthiness from the cradle. Parents are the first to be worshiped. Then teachers. Then employers. Then government officials. They have to power over others to say, "off with his head" - or - "to the prison you go" or "pay your taxes." This conditioning from the cradle creates the paradigm of personal unworthiness in the heads of every single one of us. Some of us fight it on a daily basis. Some are completely unaware that it is there. Some revel in it.

Worship makes a human commit atrocities against whomever the PTB say are "the others." Worship allows an army commander to give smallpox infected blankets to Indians. Worship allows a priest easy access to his alter boys for his own gratification.

The single most pervasive word in our culture is "worship." And it is that word, that concept, that paradigm that is controlling and destroying civilization.

I've come to this through some painful pathways of thought. After 35 years, it was so hard, so very hard, to start to believe in myself enough to consider anything other than the Writings - in other words, my own thoughts and conclusions - as having validity.

I no longer see the anthropomorphic god created in religion. Yes, there is a point of Singularity. There is a creator of all that is. There is point of oneness. But that point is so far beyond my comprehension that I do not need to create an anthropomorphic being to make myself comfortable in "worship."

Now, love is something else entirely. To feel love it is not necessary to worship. Love is indeed the most powerful force in the universe. Love binds together the atoms. Love is the power that created all that is. Love for the creation of all that exists seems to be the predominant characteristic of the indigenous spiritual teachings.

The way out of the paradigm created by worshipful religions is to recognize the power of love, to throw away the anthropomorphic judge as the ruler and arbiter of humans, to approach the denizens of the spiritual realms (called angels, spirits, guides) from a feeling of respectful equality of existence but recognition of their deep wisdom and higher learning.

The chains of worship cause us to allow "them" to commit atrocities against us and others. Once we throw off those chains and see ourselves as equal in existence, not bound by "they are superior because they are higher in the hierarchy," perhaps we can also throw off the chains of their control.

End of rant. Good night.

[Shezbeth]

I have been feeling much of what you express of late. I appreciate your detail and care in expressing it, as it exceeds my own. I have only one addition.

Reverence is a highly insidious form of worship, for it justifies subjugation to something that one has no affiliation for. Someone else deems [random object #647] as being sacred and the expectation is that others will show 'due respect' even if one disagrees; Worship being obsequent to pretension.

[sirdipswitch]

When you again remember the Immortal Spirit Being that you truly are, you shall not again utter the word... impossible...

[Snowflower]

impossible? was that uttered in this thread?

[lightseeker]

Thank you Snowflower for putting into words that which I have felt for so long. I have struggled with the concept of worship over many years ( i am now 64). Raised a Catholic with all the brainwashing that goes with it took me years of de programming myself from the slave mentality. I continued to search for answers in different belief systems, also becomming a member of the Baha'i Faith, and left this belief some 20 yrs ago. I have chosen to follow a spiritual path without the need for dogma. And yes LOVE is the centre of everything, of all creation. We are all part of the ONE, as I see it and feel it. I don't pressume to know or understand that which created all. I do accept that it has and do the best i can to share the love.

[Snowflower]

You're welcome, lightseeker. As a result of this thread, I also discovered another former Baha'i in Avalon. It's like finding little spots of light in a dark and confusing terrain. While in the brainwashed group, I had no idea I had been so thoroughly brainwashed. I would have laughed at anyone who suggested such. But, the further away I come, the more I see the control mechanisms. The single most important word there is: fear. Fear of being ostracized. Fear of being judged by God Almighty for not worshiping the "right" manifestation. Fear of being wrong. Fear of being wrong. Fear of being wrong.

One of the odd things that has truly helped me is becoming a very close friend (in cyber land, phone, and on two occasions in person) with a woman who is a Jehovah's Witness. The help has not been from a positive perspective though - it's seeing exactly the same mind control in action in her that I had myself in previous years. Because she is still 100% convinced that "their way is the right way," and "everyone else is wrong," - there's nothing I can do to help her see outside of her paradigm. The more stuck she is, the more free I have become, because I've been able to observe it from outside. If Baha'is are taught one prejudice more than any others, it is prejudice against Jehovah's Witnesses. And, you'd be amazed how similar their beliefs are.

When I first walked away, I was walking away from the community. I had no intention at all in walking away from the belief structure. But, the vacuum I was sucked into - no friends, no life outside Baha'i - forced me into SOME kind of activity, and I found that online. I am absolutely convinced that my mother set me on the path I've been following ever since, about a week after she died. She became a Baha'i after I did - and joked about the fact that I was her "spiritual mother." Anyway, one week after she died - to the minute - I was awake at 3:30 in the morning, and online. And it "suddenly" occurred to me to put into the search engine "unenrolled Baha'is." Wow. I found out there were people like me all over the planet. And the problems I was seeing in my local community - and every community I had visited all over the US - was evident in communities all over the planet. That started the past 11 years of searching for the truth, OUTSIDE the Baha'i Writings.

I'm delighted to meet someone else on the same journey.

[ulli]

After reading every last paragraph of Bahai text I could find I came to the conclusion that the prophesies confirm what many here at Avalon believe and foresee- that the current system is destined to break down.
And that at that point something else will have to replace it, and that is a loose-knit community network, where all the members can elect a body of representatives, like the elders of tribal people, and that these elections must be regular, allowing fresh blood to enter. The must be no campaigning, as the elected will be chosen by the members of each community, according to their high level of wisdom, spirituality, ability to guide, plan, solve problems, and hopefully not any bureaucratic faculties. If they can connect with those who have passed on, via meditation and prayer, then the system will be helped by the invisible realm.
Fact is all communities need someone to make decisions to address the larger issues, like transportation, health, security, and education. This someone will then no longer be some blue-blooded royal, or feudal overlord, or party political animal, or priesthood, or heavily armed drug barons, but representatives of the people themselves, elected by the people and their service appreciated by those who elected them and are less able to solve those large scale problems that inevitably affect any community.
If this is all that the Bahai Faith has to offer the world, I believe Baha'u'llah's suffering will not have been in vain.
He himself never wanted to be worshiped. The principle words of Bahai are justice and love. Unfortunately psychotic controllers wormed their way into the system and pushed out most of those writings that confirmed individual sovereignty...yet there is still mention of it, if one looks carefully. Also remember the Hidden Word: Noble have I created thee...interpretation of religious text was forbidden...hence no clergy...according to Baha'u'llah we are all now to see through the eyes of God, and hear with His ears. No more clergy, which to me means no Ruhi courses either. Private prayer and meditation.
By the way, I was an active member for 19 years, from Naw-Ruz of 1983 until Naw-Ruz 2002.

[ulli]

You're welcome, lightseeker. As a result of this thread, I also discovered another former Baha'i in Avalon. It's like finding little spots of light in a dark and confusing terrain. While in the brainwashed group, I had no idea I had been so thoroughly brainwashed. I would have laughed at anyone who suggested such. But, the further away I come, the more I see the control mechanisms. The single most important word there is: fear. Fear of being ostracized. Fear of being judged by God Almighty for not worshiping the "right" manifestation. Fear of being wrong. Fear of being wrong. Fear of being wrong.

One of the odd things that has truly helped me is becoming a very close friend (in cyber land, phone, and on two occasions in person) with a woman who is a Jehovah's Witness. The help has not been from a positive perspective though - it's seeing exactly the same mind control in action in her that I had myself in previous years. Because she is still 100% convinced that "their way is the right way," and "everyone else is wrong," - there's nothing I can do to help her see outside of her paradigm. The more stuck she is, the more free I have become, because I've been able to observe it from outside. If Baha'is are taught one prejudice more than any others, it is prejudice against Jehovah's Witnesses. And, you'd be amazed how similar their beliefs are.

When I first walked away, I was walking away from the community. I had no intention at all in walking away from the belief structure. But, the vacuum I was sucked into - no friends, no life outside Baha'i - forced me into SOME kind of activity, and I found that online. I am absolutely convinced that my mother set me on the path I've been following ever since, about a week after she died. She became a Baha'i after I did - and joked about the fact that I was her "spiritual mother." Anyway, one week after she died - to the minute - I was awake at 3:30 in the morning, and online. And it "suddenly" occurred to me to put into the search engine "unenrolled Baha'is." Wow. I found out there were people like me all over the planet. And the problems I was seeing in my local community - and every community I had visited all over the US - was evident in communities all over the planet. That started the past 11 years of searching for the truth, OUTSIDE the Baha'i Writings.

I'm delighted to meet someone else on the same journey.

Oh, so you were on Karen Bacquet's forum, too? Hey, we might have met there....

[Orph]

impossible? was that uttered in this thread?It's just a word, nothing more. When you can know the god-self that you are, you will never again bow down to anything or anyone. Ever. You will know that you are divinity. As such, it is "impossible" to bow down or subjugate yourself to anything again. You will also know that all else is divinity as well. And you will not be tempted to "rise above" anything either. For all else is you as well.

Now, in your head you're probably saying "Of course. I already know this". But trust me, when you can go into your deepest self and know this at that level, .... well, everything else just sort of falls away. I myself have only gotten a few fleeting glimpses of this knowing. But I'm slowly learning to connect with that part of my self. That's my journey now.

[Snowflower]

My name is Lua (my second middle name is Snowflower). Yes, I was there and very active.

A critical component about what is happening on the planet involves the psychopaths. You mentioned the word "psychotic" above, as infiltrators in the Baha'i Faith. But, that isn't it. It's psychopathic. BIG difference. Psychotic is crazy, mentally ill, etc. A psychopath has a different kind of brain structure, a person who is not in the slightest crazy, knows exactly what he or she is doing and why.

I believe psychopaths have infiltrated nearly every power structure on the planet: politics, religion, medicine, education. They are in control. They have no remorse, no conscience, no empathy, no compassion, no connection to anything outside themselves. It is extremely important in understanding the power structure and what is happening not only on the planet but in each of our individual lives and communities. When you are dealing with a person who has no remorse or empathy, but does a bang up job of pretending to have oodles and gobs of empathy, while at the same time is very cognizant of how to use your empathy against you - you aren't on a level playing field. You cannot assume action and reaction will be based on the same impulses. You cannot do battle with a psychopath. They will win every time. The only solution is to shun.

I finally started learning about psychopaths too late, after I had been a victim of one in the justice system. But, now that I know, it's amazing how easy it is to spot one at the very first meeting - now that I am aware of what red flags to watch for. Anyway, that is a slight drift away from thread topic, but not completely.

I started this off with the statement that worship is the common factor in all the religions that leads toward fanaticism and the hierarchical system in the world today. That is the integral part of the religion that I find destructive. But - in order for worship to be an accepted foundation, the religion MUST offer truth. That's what is there in the Baha'i Writings about the Administrative Order. It is an essential truth. It's a damned good idea as a structure that can be used to govern the planet.

For those who do not know, in a nutshell the Baha'i Administrative order includes elements of all the present forms of government on the planet - yes, even dictatorship - and is a balanced way to govern. It involves elected groups of people to govern, appointed people to educate, checks and balances to keep things honest. But it won't work if psychopaths get into the mix, because it demands that all those participating share a common moral structure. NO system of government will work if psychopaths get into positions of power.

The teachings of Baha'u'llah are magnificent, powerful, true. But - I don't know if He was controlled (see - even there my learned behavior patterns kicked in - I automatically capitalized the "he"), by the One Creator of All that is, and then the religion was co-opted, or if He was actually controlled by the psychopaths who started the whole damn mess we're in about 4-6000 years ago, who gave Him truth so that He would believe it Himself, but who were NOT from the One Creator, and who had other agendas (worship) slipped in among the valuable teachings. (I continued using the capital to emphasize the power of conditioning.)

¤=[Post Update]=¤



impossible? was that uttered in this thread?It's just a word, nothing more. When you can know the god-self that you are, you will never again bow down to anything or anyone. Ever. You will know that you are divinity. As such, it is "impossible" to bow down or subjugate yourself to anything again. You will also know that all else is divinity as well. And you will not be tempted to "rise above" anything either. For all else is you as well.

Now, in your head you're probably saying "Of course. I already know this". But trust me, when you can go into your deepest self and know this at that level, .... well, everything else just sort of falls away. I myself have only gotten a few fleeting glimpses of this knowing. But I'm slowly learning to connect with that part of my self. That's my journey now.

Yes. There are so many truths I can feel inside but have no language to express.

[ulli]

My name is Lua (my second middle name is Snowflower). Yes, I was there and very active.

A critical component about what is happening on the planet involves the psychopaths. You mentioned the word "psychotic" above, as infiltrators in the Baha'i Faith. But, that isn't it. It's psychopathic. BIG difference. Psychotic is crazy, mentally ill, etc. A psychopath has a different kind of brain structure, a person who is not in the slightest crazy, knows exactly what he or she is doing and why.

I believe psychopaths have infiltrated nearly every power structure on the planet: politics, religion, medicine, education. They are in control. They have no remorse, no conscience, no empathy, no compassion, no connection to anything outside themselves. It is extremely important in understanding the power structure and what is happening not only on the planet but in each of our individual lives and communities. When you are dealing with a person who has no remorse or empathy, but does a bang up job of pretending to have oodles and gobs of empathy, while at the same time is very cognizant of how to use your empathy against you - you aren't on a level playing field. You cannot assume action and reaction will be based on the same impulses. You cannot do battle with a psychopath. They will win every time. The only solution is to shun.

I finally started learning about psychopaths too late, after I had been a victim of one in the justice system. But, now that I know, it's amazing how easy it is to spot one at the very first meeting - now that I am aware of what red flags to watch for. Anyway, that is a slight drift away from thread topic, but not completely.

I started this off with the statement that worship is the common factor in all the religions that leads toward fanaticism and the hierarchical system in the world today. That is the integral part of the religion that I find destructive. But - in order for worship to be an accepted foundation, the religion MUST offer truth. That's what is there in the Baha'i Writings about the Administrative Order. It is an essential truth. It's a damned good idea as a structure that can be used to govern the planet.

For those who do not know, in a nutshell the Baha'i Administrative order includes elements of all the present forms of government on the planet - yes, even dictatorship - and is a balanced way to govern. It involves elected groups of people to govern, appointed people to educate, checks and balances to keep things honest. But it won't work if psychopaths get into the mix, because it demands that all those participating share a common moral structure. NO system of government will work if psychopaths get into positions of power.

The teachings of Baha'u'llah are magnificent, powerful, true. But - I don't know if He was controlled (see - even there my learned behavior patterns kicked in - I automatically capitalized the "he"), by the One Creator of All that is, and then the religion was co-opted, or if He was actually controlled by the psychopaths who started the whole damn mess we're in about 4-6000 years ago, who gave Him truth so that He would believe it Himself, but who were NOT from the One Creator, and who had other agendas (worship) slipped in among the valuable teachings. (I continued using the capital to emphasize the power of conditioning.)

¤=[Post Update]=¤



impossible? was that uttered in this thread?It's just a word, nothing more. When you can know the god-self that you are, you will never again bow down to anything or anyone. Ever. You will know that you are divinity. As such, it is "impossible" to bow down or subjugate yourself to anything again. You will also know that all else is divinity as well. And you will not be tempted to "rise above" anything either. For all else is you as well.

Now, in your head you're probably saying "Of course. I already know this". But trust me, when you can go into your deepest self and know this at that level, .... well, everything else just sort of falls away. I myself have only gotten a few fleeting glimpses of this knowing. But I'm slowly learning to connect with that part of my self. That's my journey now.

Yes. There are so many truths I can feel inside but have no language to express.

Sorry, of course I meant psychopaths...not psychotics. Sloppiness on my part there.
And I do know the difference, well, normally I do.

If I were Baha'u'llah and had a message from God, would I include the word worship?
I guess it depends on the definition, and perhaps even translation.
During his lifetime he had to consider the understanding of the people he addressed on his tablets...
mostly Persian Shia Muslims, filtering his revelations (which could also be considered channellings, or automatic writings) through that cultural perspective.
Let's say the term God is just an abstract term for absolute goodness, absolute perfection,
then focusing on that goodness from a state of being which would project far more than mere admiration, far more than mere love, then worship seems the appropriate word.
As long as no one else comes after me with a magnifying glass to ensure that I am really, really in a state of worship, at all times, it's actually nothing other than a technology the application of which will guarantee results due to what goes on in my own inner vibrational field as a result of being in such an ecstatic state...it ensures that my own frequencies approach those of the divine, which are yet higher than mine can be, as long as I am trapped in this physical body.

Now that I have discovered more about the nature of consciousness, that the principle "where focus goes, energy flows" holds true,
and therefore by focusing on the Highest Perfections imaginable, in doing so in an emotional state
which can only be expressed by the term 'worship', which is the equivalent of total and absolute adoration,
then this will guarantee me that I can start manifesting this divinity in myself,
and hence I will discover that my wishes come true, and miraculous healings can occur,
and dangerous extreme weather cycles can be averted. This is how I think it all works,
and I see nothing wrong with that. Because whenever I become negative, projecting fear, doubt, cynicism,
then there is no shortage of unwanted hardships in its wake. So we are talking degrees here, of states of being.
I am far more often the cause of the events which show up on the screen of my life than I realized when I was younger.

But that would also mean that Baha'u'llah would have been the cause of those two awful world wars, wouldn't it?
And what about causing the PTB, as he warned that a materialistic world government would take over the whole planet, as if he was using them to get the logistics prepared for when they are finally removed by whatever event we can't even imagine.
He also focused quite a bit on the corruption, the greed, the pomp, the cruelties...even though in a disapproving way.

But he also focused on universal education, equality of men and women, abolishing racial prejudice, bringing science and religion into agreement....and all those things are now manifesting at an incredible rate, while they surely did not yet exist in his lifetime.

P.S. Pleased to meet you, Lua. Were you named after Lua Getsinger?

[Crazy Louie]

great post - worship represented the brainwashing that the control structure needed. in a none ego boosting way I have to agree with your conclusions that all man created dogma going by any name is filled with spiritual maggots. and they are fat happy maggots. I would ask you to think about man's love also being tainted with some fat maggots. as you said the singularity is way way beyond our comprehension and thus his love or what ever energy that is - is also beyond our comprehension. and so we have invented that too -- and I submit the history of love as manufactured by humans is lacking - from generation to generation it has evolved into so many versions of doctor phil it is beyond the horror of oprah giving you her wisdom. a god that needs to be worshipped is a god invented by man's ego because man's ego loves to be worshipped.

I think for myself in this journey I would have been a lot better off if no one had ever mentioned love. talked about it - acted it out according to their own ego driven version of love -- I understand on some level that love is a real thing in a real place - but its not here - the closest we could come to love here would be compassion and feeling the sorrow collectively that we are really here all of us together and this is not a good place - and actually its a stupid place and it hurts a lot too - mostly what hurts is the love we have invented - its like needing a healthy diet of rice and beans and we instead get tator tots and sweet tarts and all our hopes for majestic pure love have become a diabetic epileptic memory in the jaded jargon of despair.

we could have all known what love is suppose to be if we had been given that love without detail - words - or mention of how great it was that someone was giving you that love - I doubt god mentions the word sacrafice. I doubt he uses any words at all. Just a wild guess there. we could have known love if we had been shown it. what we have is something that is so frail and so incomplete we have had to always supplement it with words. its so mundane - its so oprah - its just this thing that thinks because it has station in this physical realm it has merit. "I love you" spoken outloud to anyone is like the rosary of mans boundless delusion and devotion to yet another mindless mantra hypnotizing himself into thinking his love is different than anything that ever came before it.

what I know of god and the purity of his love came to me through him by way of nature - through animals -- and yes of course some people often strangers in life I met only once or twice - amazingly enough they gave what family and significant others never did on some level. love also came to me in dreams from visitors who came to help me. - the source code is constant once you understand it is in everything.


I think our birth is a good indication of what we are getting into when we come here.
as saint augustine of hippo said - “Inter faeces et urinam nascimur. (We are born between sh*t and piss.)”

[Heartsong]

Greetings from another former Bahai. 1987 to 2007. I left for many of the same reasons you and Ulli did.
Thank you for expressing your thoughts so well.

[ulli]

Greetings from another former Bahai. 1987 to 2007. I left for many of the same reasons you and Ulli did.
Thank you for expressing your thoughts so well.

If another six women find us we can declare ourselves as the first all-female Universal House of Justice.
Just think what a stir that would cause. Hehe....
P.S. Just found out that Lifeseeker is the odd wheel on our wagon, being male...
P.P.S I just saw today's date...it is the birthday of the Bab. Duh! Hmm....

[Snowflower]

Wow. I have come so far away, I didn't even notice the date. This is SO COOL! Regular reunion here!

I was on the Spirit Run in 2000. I cooked for the youth running across the country. In every community we went through, across Montana where I joined them, Wyoming, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ontario, New York - I acted like a magnet for the disenchanted. The individual people, women mostly but not always, found me alone and wanted to talk. What's wrong? It isn't supposed to be like this! What did I do wrong? Why did the LSA or the NSA or the ABM do this to me? Why didn't they believe me/listen to me/trust me? The disconnect between the teachings, what is spouted as the way it is, and the reality of what happens - it's all very different.

After that trip, I went travel teaching through Arizona, New Mexico, Mexico, and Texas - and that is where the proverbial human excrement collided with the atmosphere circulator for me personally. A self important, conceited, certain of his superiority, ABM sent out a piece of backbiting drivel to every LSA in the entire USA about me, based on lies from his good friend in my home community. Although I was totally self supporting, he "warned" communities not to offer me hospitality, because there were "questions" about me. I had been sharing stories about the Spirit Run and music from across the country. There was nothing I could do. No defense possible. I went home. I asked the UHJ for help for defamation of character. I got a letter from them that upon investigation, they had determined that "some institutions had behaved inappropriately with me." And I also got that the ABM was not appointed for a second term - maybe connected, maybe not.

But here is the key point about what I learned. There is a phrase in the writings about the appearance of unity, and justice. That we will not see justice until the appearance of unity in the world. Ah - but - is that only that it appears that we have unity, or is it that unity appears and comes into being? The current state of affairs is that the Baha'i community wants to present the appearance of being unified without a shred of reality.

The other MOST important principle has to do with sacrifice. The individual Baha'i is being asked to sacrifice his need for personal justice on the altar of unity in the community. But you cannot build world unity on the shoulders of crushed individuals. Until the most important thing in the world is justice for the individual, there will never be unity in the world.

[Kindred]

Free Will is Ours, and Always has been. Unfortunately, most religions, regardless of specific teachings, have been manipulated in such a fashion that the original precepts are only given lip service, if at all, or in many cases, completely driven from the accepted texts.

This is by design so as to maintain control of a people who don't have the basic knowledge necessary to understand that They ALL have Everything they need within themselves to have communion with 'God', Higher Self, Source, the all that is... whatever name you choose.

I will suggest that there is No need for 'sacrifice', except possibly to pass up on a 'want/desire', so as to help another.

The core statement that all the Masters have made is "Love One-Another'. No more, no less.

Once we all Love One Another, There Will Be Justice, as All will recognize that if One suffers, ALL suffers.

Is there a time that Unity Consciousness shall Be??? Yes... If We Want It. When ALL awaken to this basic Truth This is a consensus reality that we have Created by our Thoughts and Deeds. When enough have Had 'enough'... it shall Be.

I'll also say, it may only be a matter of time before the Electric Universe makes it's presence known, and in that moment, Unity may be had by All.

In Unity, Peace and Love

[Snowflower]

Absolutely, Kindred, and I believe that time is coming soon. There is a vibrational shift happening to the planet. Gaea used to vibrate at 7.8 HZ per minute. Now she's up to more than 13 HZ per minute, and continuing to increase. It's part of the reason so many people are insane. Part of the reason for the insanity of governments. I have a feeling that some won't make the transition when she flips, makes the shift, becomes 4d perhaps?, but the vibration changes. Then, those who survive the shift will have a new level of awareness because the planet we get our electrical connection from has shifted frequencies. I suspect psychopaths will not survive the shift. I don't know who else might not - don't know if I'll be one who survives for that matter. None of us will know until it happens.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Should have said - the reason I suspect psychopaths will not survive the shift is because there are too many cultural traditions that say that when the shift occurs we will be living in a world of peace and harmony. It is not physically possible for a psychopath to live in peace and harmony with others. In order to have peace and harmony, psychopaths won't be here. I put those two dots together and came to that conclusion.

[Sen McGlinn]

... what is there in the Baha'i Writings about the Administrative Order. It is an essential truth. It's a damned good idea as a structure that can be used to govern the planet.

For those who do not know, in a nutshell the Baha'i Administrative order includes elements of all the present forms of government on the planet - yes, even dictatorship - and is a balanced way to govern. It involves elected groups of people to govern, appointed people to educate, checks and balances to keep things honest. But it won't work if psychopaths get into the mix, because it demands that all those participating share a common moral structure.

There is a widespread misunderstanding, among Bahais and others as well, that the Bahai administrative order is intended to be a local and planetary government. If it were true, it would be an awful plan, but there is no solid basis for this idea. It grew out of bad translations and misunderstandings in the early Bahai community in the west, and it came in handy for anti-Bahai propagandists who said that Bahais wanted to establish a Bahai theocracy in which the Bahai administration would replace the civil government. Baha'u''llah quoted and explicitly endorsed the principle of "render unto Caesar" (in his Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/ESW/esw-5.html.utf8?query=caesar&action=highlight#pg90)), and his son Abdu'l-Baha wrote a small book about the importance of the separation of church and state, which is translated as the Sermon on the Art of Governance (http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/trans/vol7/govern.htm#skip), and three of Abdu'l-Baha's talks setting out the essential principles of the Bahai Faith include the separation of church and state, as the 9th principle. Shoghi Effendi, who was head of the Bahai community after Abdu'l-Baha, wrote:


"they [the Bahais] will, unhesitatingly, subordinate the operation of [their] laws and ... principles to the requirements and legal enactments of their respective governments. Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 66
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-34.html#pg66 )


Despite the very clear rejection of the idea that a religious system could or should replace the civil government, you will still find pockets of Bahais here and there who are convinced they are building an alternative government. It's pie in the sky, but its also quite harmful for the Bahai community, because it gives the anti-Bahai propagandists a stick to beat the Bahais with, and because the elected Assemblies and appointed VIPs start acting as if they were a government, rather than as servants of the community.

I do not think it is insightful or helpful to divide humanity into psychopaths and us nice people. The idea that a religious order should govern society, which you have put forward, is in my view a pathological (harmful) idea, but I do not think you and the other Bahais who have had this idea are psychopaths. People have misunderstandings, and those misunderstandings can have very serious effects for themselves and other people. The solution is not to "other" them, but rather to illuminate the issues with evidence and reason.

Baha'u'llah's actual message is both progressive and practical: its goal is the spiritual progress of individuals and the gradual evolution of a spiritual society -- aims that should be of interest to the people of Avalon. Briefly it involves "two calls" (see http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-226.html#pg283 ), or two missions, one civilizing and the other religious, and it proposes two separate sets of institutions, procedures and norms, the one (the Bahai Administrative Order) for the operation of a religious community without a clergy or charismatic leadership, the second a "new world order" in which the civil governments would end warfare and eventually end poverty, and enable all their citizens to achieve their full potential. The two missions have much in common: honesty is a virtue in both, for example, and consultation is the best means of decision-making in both. But they are separate, in fact the separation of church and state is the fundamental architecture of the whole plan.

[ulli]

Just to clarify...I'm one of those who believe the essential Baha'i message
was one of social ordering of communities,
which will come in handy in the case of total breakdown of our current society.

If a major disruptive event does happen and you have only 1 billion survivors (or less) roaming the whole planet,
then what would be more practical than the Bahai system for starting from scratch?
You would only need one person in each 10 square mile district who has that knowledge to show others how it is done.
It is what distinguishes the Bahai revelation from all the others...this system.

In my opinion that vision of total breakdown of civilization was also the main reason to send people to all the four corners of the earth, never even allowing large groups of Baha'is to form anywhere.
If this was indeed the reason then it would never be a question of replacing existing governments...
There will simply be no governments left to replace.
And most Baha'is would never want a bloody revolution either-
the prohibition to carry arms makes that pretty obvious.

And as far as psychopathic behavior goes...I agree with you that it would be unhealthy to go around examining people one meets for such traits.
However, they do exist at this moment are pretty much hidden from view, and have little in common with 'normal' albeit flawed humans.

This elite, used trillions of stolen taxpayer dollars to build massive underground bases to ensure their own survival...google DUMBS (deep underground military bases)
no one whose opinion is different from mine would ever be considered as such.
The definition of what Avalonians mean when they refer to a 'psychopath'
would become clearer when studying the Horus Ra thread and look at the evidence
of satanic rituals amongst members of the elite and the sacrificial rites they practice.
Anyway, welcome to Avalon, Sen....Im really happy to see you here.

[Snowflower]

Well, hello, Sen. Welcome to Avalon. I'm overwhelmed with the synchronicity of universe. I had "intended" to join Avalon for years but didn't have a roundtuit. So, I finally joined and was accepted, and only a few weeks later, you show up. There HAS to be a point from universe!

I bought your book years ago and read many of the debates online about your theological perspectives. I was super impressed with your scholarly approach to the Baha'i Writings. Your depth of scholarly understanding made my attempts to study the Writings look like kindergartner efforts.

You need to know a few things about me before I proceed. Did you read the first post in this thread thoroughly? If you did, you will know that I am no longer an active Baha'i. I have not written the mighty "resignation letter" yet, mostly because my current stance on everything in the world is "I don't know." I am not willing to take any further action until I "know."

I don't do debate well. Once things start to get argumentative, it doesn't excite my intellect and make me reach for more ammunition in the battle. It makes me feel ill. So, I can't and won't debate the Writings with you - not because one of us is right and the other wrong, but because I don't enjoy or thrive on the process.

Now, in response to this paragraph you wrote:


I do not think it is insightful or helpful to divide humanity into psychopaths and us nice people. The idea that a religious order should govern society, which you have put forward, is in my view a pathological (harmful) idea, but I do not think you and the other Bahais who have had this idea are psychopaths. People have misunderstandings, and those misunderstandings can have very serious effects for themselves and other people. The solution is not to "other" them, but rather to illuminate the issues with evidence and reason.

I am not dividing the world into two camps: psychopaths versus "nice people." Nor am I dividing it into Baha’is versus psychopaths or Baha’is as psychopaths versus nice people. You might benefit by reading the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout. After you read it, you'll have a better grounding in what a psychopath (aka sociopath) is. It isn't a matter that all rotten people are psychopaths and all others are nice. There are plenty of thoroughly rotten people in the world who aren't psychopaths. Less than 5% of the population is psychopathic.

In a nutshell, a psychopath is a person who has a brain that lacks the ability to feel any connection to any living thing outside of him or herself. There is no connection inside the brain from the frontal lobe (conscious thought patterns) to the amygdala (emotion center.) This is a physical reality. It isn't mental illness. It isn't insanity. It isn't a curable "disease." It is a different brain construction. This single fact about psychopathy is something very few people understand. They insist on lumping psychopathy in with mental illness.

As a consequence of this brain construction, a psychopath can feel neither empathy nor remorse. Therefore, they can do anything at all to any person, place, or thing, and feel nothing whatsoever for the doing of it. So, a king who is a psychopath can order death, disease, suffering - whatever he wants to do - and feel no remorse, or connection of any kind to the suffering he caused. The girl next door who is a psychopath can pour salt onto your garden in retaliation for something imagined or real, or just as a prank, and have no thought at all to the harm done to you - just the enjoyment the action gave her.

My mention of psychopathy in this thread was not directly in connection to Baha’is, but I do think that psychopaths use religions – including the Baha’i Faith – as a means of controlling the planet. They also use governments, economy, politics, medicine, education and anything else that offers them a position of power over people.

The previous four paragraphs were in response to your first sentence. Now, I’ll respond to the rest of what you said.

I do not suggest that theocracy is a beneficial form of government. Yes, that is a harmful idea. If the Baha’i Administrative Order were to become the government of the planet, it would deny all non-Baha’is any representation whatsoever, and there will never be a time when every person on the planet is a Baha’i. In fact, there’s a writing from Baha’u’llah, which I’m sure you could quote to us, that specifies protections for the rights of non-Baha’is in a predominantly Baha’i world.

What I am suggesting is that the FORM of government proposed by Baha’u’llah, elucidated by Abdu’l-Baha, and expanded into its present form by Shoghi Effendi, could be a beneficial form of governance. It would consist of a democratically elected officiating body in the local community composed of nine people, elected yearly, to govern the affairs of that community, a district voting system for electing a regional council of nine, a republican form of electing (still yearly) a national council of nine, and a republican form of electing a worldwide council of nine (which would NOT be limited to one sex, by the way.)

I am suggesting that a combination of rulers and learned would be beneficial, of appointed and elected, of long-term appointments and limited time elections, of the prevention of any one individual from assuming power and authority over others, while the council is the voice of the people.

This is not suggesting that it be done in the name of any religion or group of people. I am only suggesting the use of wisdom to be found in the structure of government.

The only reason for the inclusion of psychopaths in the discussion, is that due to the brain construction of a psychopath, it is impossible to engage in either reasoned discourse or evidence-based debate on any subject whatsoever with a person who has no connection to anything outside him or herself. I WILL out them as “others,” because of all the people on this planet, only psychopaths are “the others.” It is impossible to establish anything of substance for the good of the planet if psychopaths manage to be in control.

Right now, psychopaths are in power over the entire planet. They are destroying the entire planet. It doesn’t matter to them that they are destroying the planet, because they have no connection to anything outside of themselves. There are three things that even give us a glimmer of hope for survival of the planet. They are that 1. Psychopaths comprise less than 5% of the population and that means there are 95% of us who DO have connection, 2. Psychopaths cannot destroy the planet without the complicity of minions from that 95% and if those minions can become educated about what a psychopath is, there is hope that they will turn against their masters, and 3. Psychopaths not only don’t have any connection to the rest of us – they don’t have connection to each other either, so once the minions begin to turn on their masters, the psychopaths will turn on each other. Nothing can be accomplished without unity, and they have no comprehension of true unity.

To summarize: I am not suggesting for a second that the Baha’i Faith will become a theocratic dictatorship. I am suggesting that the form of government expounded in the Baha’i Writings could be of value to the people of the world. I am suggesting that psychopaths have infiltrated the Baha’i Faith just as they have infiltrated all positions of power. I am suggesting that as long as psychopaths remain in power, they will continue to destroy the planet.

[Sen McGlinn]

Thanks for the clarification Snowflower. I think that religious teaching in general can provide an ethic of government, involving the value of consultation, honesty and openness and the ideal of public service. I do not think the form of the Bahai Administration was ever intended as a blueprint for civil government, and in any case the form without the ethic would be meaningless, while the ethic once embedded will generate an appropriate form. While Baha'u'llah endorsed the idea of democracy with some reservations and conditions, he did not specify the forms in any detail, and I think that was wise. Politics is made using the materials that history and culture provide, and cannot be the same everywhere.