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sushil soni
28th October 2013, 15:48
There is no difference between you and me. If you think that there is any difference it has only been imposed from the outside, which has arisen from the ego; or in other words, it appears so, and what simply appears, you think that it is the Truth, the Reality. On the contrary, the water is the source of waves, foam and bubbles at once. The waves, foam and bubbles cannot arise independently. They are the forms of water just like necklace made from gold is gold but appears in the form of a necklace. And you do not see the necklace as a necklace but you see the necklace as gold. In the same way, you see water and not the waves because the waves do not stay permanently.

It is in the nature of the form to perish and disappear. The future of the bubble is to burst and not remain as a bubble so long as it wishes. The shirt is not a shirt but only a form sewn together by a great number of threads and given a particular shape. The planet, the galaxy, everything – they are all the same. So, there is no difference between the source of the form and what appears as a form or shape – both are the same.

The difference is in our perception of the form. Once you go beyond the form, you go deep into the shape of the object that appears or has arisen before your eyes - so then you are going beyond that object. It is only then that you actually touch the reality of that object. The next obvious step that you take is to realize the essence of that object. Only after realizing the essence of that object are you able to understand the reality of that object.

The essence pervades throughout the creation in the same way that sweetness pervades in the sugarcane juice. The sweetness is always there in the sugarcane. The sugarcane is always sweet, that is the essence of sugarcane – its sweetness.

The creation is no different. There are no two different objects in this world, in this universe or in this creation. They only appear different in forms and shapes. Beneath these forms and shapes is the unity, the Oneness which is the essence of these objects. This oneness is the Self that pervades, that is omnipresent and omniscient.

This Self is the “I AM” principle which is the essence of this creation. This creation is within me and also apart from me. What is above is also below, what is here is also there, what is inside is also outside. Since each object is made up of the five elements, then where is the difference? Therefore, the essence of this creation is the all-pervading Self, who happens to be Me/You.

Eram
28th October 2013, 17:12
Hi sushil soni,

Welcome to the forum.

I have been a member here for about eighteen months and ever since I arrived here, I felt drawn to the enlightenment threads that are kept mostly in the spiritual section.
I had never really looked into the subject before and most of what I since then have read about it was new to me.
For a good part of a year, I studied "enlightenment" material and did a lot of meditation and other exercises, like the ones that Eckhat Tolle suggests.
I had a few glimpses behind the curtain of the mind and they changed my consciousness for the better.
It is of great importance to have been able to experience that we are not the body. It makes all the difference in the way I approach life now.

There where however certain claims that live in the enlightenment movement that didn't sit well with me and although I tried, I could not let them go.

One of those claims is the one where you start this OP with:

There is no difference between you and me. If you think that there is any difference it has only been imposed from the outside, which has arisen from the ego; or in other words, it appears so, and what simply appears, you think that it is the Truth, the Reality. On the contrary, the water is the source of waves, foam and bubbles at once. The waves, foam and bubbles cannot arise independently. They are the forms of water just like necklace made from gold is gold but appears in the form of a necklace. And you do not see the necklace as a necklace but you see the necklace as gold. In the same way, you see water and not the waves because the waves do not stay permanently. [...

It is a claim that is essential in the whole idea about enlightenment as far as I can judge it and I've been wondering if this claim is really true.
If this is true, why do we keep having an individual experience once we become "enlightened"?
Adyashanti talked about that at a certain point of his rise to enlightenment he could see all his previous lives pass before him.
Why is he connected to his individual previous lives if in reality, there is no difference between him and any body else?

Another claim that I have difficulties with is that enlightenment is our natural state. Why is it so damn hard to reach this state and why do so few people succeed?
Or/and it is also said that once you reach enlightenment, you will automatically live in truth and "know" the truth.
Why is it then that many people who claim to be enlightened (which I do not contest here) make claims that have no bases in reality what so ever?
For instance: Dr. David Hawkings once said that smoking is not bad for your health. He even made a joke about the whole idea.
How is this possible?

Not too long ago I got in touch with other material that tries to explain about reality and truth, the so called esoterics from T. Laurency, which are based on the teachings that Pythagoras offered to the initiates in the secret knowledge school.

Much to my surprise, in the first chapter of the first book that I started to read, it stated that the whole idea of enlightenment is a dead end street and that people who are "enlightened" have only reached a comfortable emotional state, which indeed feels like a million bucks (and more).
It says that man is a five fold being, meaning that we have five bodies to our disposal when we are in our incarnated state.
The physical body, the ehterical body, the emotional body, the mental body and a causal body to which we return in the end when an incarnation has ended.
Since "enlightened" people become enlightened through means of letting go of all resistance, it is apparent to me (and I witnessed this in several "enlightened" people) that they did not resolve all their emotions, but simply put no resistance to them any more and as a result do no longer suffer from them.
But since any emotion is the result of a thought form that is not in line with reality, it is easy to argue that indeed, enlightened people reached the higher planes of the emotional world, but can grow no further, unless they start using their mind again and search for answers which will allow them to grow beyond that realm.

In these books, there is spoken of that every man is a specific individual that will remain an individual for the total course of awakening to the very end of what can be reached in this game of life, far far further then the enlightened state that we talk about here, all the way up to the state where we are master of a cosmos and can create other cosmoses. This individual component is given to us, or better yet, the part of us when we set out in this game of life is is an individual part that can never be undone through the course of life.

Can you imagine that it was quite a shock for me when I read these things, since I had so much invested in the ideas that the enlightenment movement teaches?

To come back to your statement that there is no difference between you and me:
During the course of life in this so called "illusion" there is a remaining individuality that separates one being from another, I think this is not debatable and proven.
You can argue that in the end, life is indeed an illusion, but can you prove it? And more important, does it really matter as long as we are subject to the endless cycle of life's wish to become "more", reach higher points of consciousness?
Do you really believe that someone like Adya Shanti has now reached the end of his life cycle in this "illusion"?
Then who I ask you is managing the forces in this universe that are of a much higher nature then man is currently living in? Like planets, solar sytems etc. Is there no conscious behind what goes on at those levels and are there no entities of a much much higher level at work there?

Maybe this post is a little too confronting and you don't feel the need to debate such opposing explanations about life here in this thread and if so, I will happily remove my post.

I do how ever feel the need to talk about this with people with much deeper knowledge of the enlightenment teachings then I do, since I still have not made up my mind entirely, though at this point I can see no validity in certain essential aspects in this movement any more.

All the best!

Eram

johnf
28th October 2013, 18:05
enlightened people reached the higher planes of the emotional world, but can grow no further, unless they start using their mind again and search for answers which will allow them to grow beyond that realm.

Indeed there are numbers of people who have been involved in the "enlightenment" movement who talk about and encourage continuing inquiry.
They have a tendency to avoid using the enlightenment label.
The thread Greybeard has pointed out contains some discussion of this at length.Tim starts the thread out with a powerful description of the state, and others talk about moving beyond it.

I follow Karen Richards who has experienced this state where her experience is that, all this is happening to no one.
Really not so much a statement of fact as it is a description of a state.
Then as time goes on she describes her continued inquiry into reality and says repeatedly we are never fully cooked.

I don't really see your post as a derailment of the thread as it is just more inquiry as I see it.

jf

sirdipswitch
28th October 2013, 19:11
You guys are too funny. I sit laughingly wondering why you try so hard to Intellectually Complicate... Simplicity.

RELIGION: PHYLOSOPHY: No matter be it East or West or something somewhere in between, do nothing but. Just to confuse the masses and keep them from Enlightenment.

yep...:wizard:

Eram
28th October 2013, 20:18
You guys are too funny. I sit laughingly wondering why you try so hard to Intellectually Complicate... Simplicity.

RELIGION: PHYLOSOPHY: No matter be it East or West or something somewhere in between, do nothing but. Just to confuse the masses and keep them from Enlightenment.

yep...:wizard:

No religion and philosophy going on here my friend.
Just trying to make sense of the world and life in general and seeking stepping stones to come forward.

We do not all have the privilege of having an unique deal that you have (astral travel in the way that you are able to) and even then and there it is not always possible to find answers, maybe especially there.
Further, I must admit that some of the claims that you make about your adventures and the things that you learn about reality do strike me as odd and sometimes even impossible or out of touch with what is possible in reality.
I do wonder if you yourself are mislead or confused in some cases.

Dorjezigzag
28th October 2013, 20:43
There is no difference between you and me. If you think that there is any difference it has only been imposed from the outside

I believe that ultimately we are all one and connected but that does not mean we are all the same.

An example, within my body, I have different organs that are quite unique and individual to each other, for example the liver helps to remove toxins and the heart helps the flow of bood. If my heart began to feel that it needed to be the same as my liver because it claimed to be enlightened then we may have a problem. As my heart, liver, etc is to me, I am to the universe.

We may be the same as in we are all parts of the whole, but we all have different roles

So easily this belief in no difference can become like the Borg from star trek, or the cybermen from Doctor Who or an ant colony. An imposed sameness.
http://www.tasteofcinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/star-trek-first-contact.jpg

Shezbeth
28th October 2013, 20:57
I am eagerly/anxiously anticipating a concise, detailed/thorough description of this oft-bandied about word - Enlightenment. I went into short detail here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64857-All-Is-Beyond-Expression&p=750188&viewfull=1#post750188

I won't quote, but I have an addendum.

Enlightenment is also freely/frequently used by individuals to describe a state they hope to achieve but without sufficient/extant evidence that such a state exists, often/mostly based on a preconceived notion and subset of characteristics derived from over-romanticism of the concept; The person attributes the disposition/state they seek/hope to achieve as being enlightened and when questioned proceed to describe it from a firsthand standpoint.

Assuming such a state exists, most who pursue such do not wish to recognize the inherent probability that they will be among the almost exclusive majority who do not attain such yet never cease to "authoritatively" disseminate the concept.

I relish discussion (especially counterpoint) anyone would care to add (this thread or elsewhere). ^_^

johnf
28th October 2013, 21:06
There is no difference between you and me. If you think that there is any difference it has only been imposed from the outside

I believe that ultimately we are all one and connected but that does not mean we are all the same.

If my heart began to feel that it needed to be the same as my liver because it claimed to be enlightened then we may have a problem. As my heart is to me, I am to the universe.

We may be the same as in we are all parts of the whole, but we all have different roles



I really do like the opening words about essence pervades, it is this sort of thing that I can't really do anything
but hang out with.
When i am telling someone else about a past experience there is the experience of the telling, and the experience I am relating.
Under certain circumstances I have felt like I was actually in two places at once and was something much bigger than either self that connected the two, and permeated all other times as well.
How that unfolds in my existence is going to be different from anyone else's.
Some of the destructive behavior we see around us that is commonly called mob rule is compulsive and is subject to all sorts of manipulation.
I really do think that there are certain groups, certain activities that will speed me along and simultaneously
increase unity, and individuality. The apparent contradiction there is coming from intellect, and this pervading essence goes far beyond that point.

jf

Crazy Louie
28th October 2013, 22:38
While younger I thought enlightenment was the cat's meow - however with age and perhaps too much to think - I have come to see enlightenment can be a false flag to the spirit - if there is no spiritual synergy - and only words to explain the concepts - what ever the enlightenment one individual arrives at is housebound.

It serves no purpose to the other 7 billion souls here - Who does god love more - an enlightened individual or a profoundly retarded individual that has no concept of god.

I guess it serves little purpose to say anything at all when a human voice can not be heard by ears tuned in only to god. - however do you see the short comings of that grandiose state of being. How can you help anyone else along the way when your on a mission for god alone? - he laughs.

I will let you guys who know so much - tell me so little - but you must do so only with enlightenment working through your fingers. (Holster the self/ego)

The path to enlightenment always leads to one place - back to where you started. So it serves a purpose - but you have to see the purpose.

Kiforall
28th October 2013, 23:34
I've just been reading Thomas Troward, he's a New Thought writer from the 19th century some interesting reading if anyone has any time.
All the books in the library below are free online

http://newthoughtlibrary.com/trowardThomas/default.htm

There are not two I AMS, but one I am.
Whatever, therefore, I can conceive the Great Universal Life Principle to be, that I am.
Let us try fully to realise what this means.
Can you conceive the Great Originating and Sustaining Life Principle of the whole universe as poor, weak, sordid, miserable, jealous, angry, anxious, uncertain, or in any other way limited? We know that this is impossible.
Then because the I AM is one it is equally untrue of ourselves.
Learn first to distinguish the true self that you are from the mental and physical processes which it throws forth as the instruments of its expression, and then learn that this self controls these instruments, and not vice versa.
As we advance in this knowledge we know ourselves to be unlimited, and that, in the miniature world, whose centre we are, we ourselves are the very same overflowing of joyous livingness that the Great Life Spirit is in the Great All.
The I AM is One.