Your views on the reality of Heaven/Paradise

[Nick Matkin]

Firstly, my general views on religion are that since God or gods seem to be part of almost all human cultures throughout history; He/She/It/They either exist and reveal themselves as is appropriate to the culture. Or, on the other hand, all cultures (or the rulers thereof!) deem it necessary to invent a deity/deities - for reasons beyond the scope of my posting here. I'm minded towards this latter explanation.

Some years ago I was working in the Middle East with someone who was devoutly religious. He believed the words of his holy book were all literally true. He was an educated journalist and I found this belief puzzling.

So I posed a question: “Do you think Paradise exists as a real place? In the same way as Australia exists? I mean, I’ve never been to Australia, but for me there is overwhelming evidence that it is real.”

He answered: “Yes, of course it is as real as Australia!”

To me, this was an astonishing reply from someone who was educated, but had a completely different world view to me. I cannot conceive of any belief without proof - although the concept of proof varies from person to person. (Nevertheless, it is well defined in a scientific sense.)

In a way I envy him. He’s spending his whole life looking forward to an eternity of unimaginable happiness and contentment no matter how rough life here gets. And if that’s how it ends, then great. But, if in the end there is nothing, well, he’ll never know. It’s not as if he can join the “hey-I’ve-been-conned-and-can-I-have-my-money-back” queue.

I’m not dismissing the possibility of conscience continuing after physical death, but I’m not convinced at all about the Heaven and Hell idea. There is much anecdotal evidence suggesting conscience does continue, (and some Avalon members will have experienced this first hand), but not yet proof for me.

So, do many people believe that Heaven or Paradise is a real place in some sense or other? If so what evidence has convinced you?

(Perhaps this post should go in the spirituality forum section - but I decided it was a bit too general.)

Nick

“Arguing with people who have lost all sense of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” Thomas Paine, US patriot and political philosopher

[soleil]

i think we all know theres an etheric astral plane that has thought forms of "heaven like" places. its really a thought form, you could be there now, although difficult.

[ulli]

Thanks for that post. You asked an important question and a lot of Avalonians have asked it, in different format. Here are the various stages of belief I went through before finding 'heaven'.
Early in my life I picked up the idea of heaven and hell from society around me, as an external place, to which one travels after death, depending whether one cut it during life or not.
In other words, right living rather than wrong living would get you there.

Then came my existentialist phase, where all this stuff was rejected. Did you ever read Sartre's famous play, Huis Clos? Hell is other people.
Anyway, in my twenties the paranormal entered my life, although the question of heaven didn't get a clear answer there.
All I discovered was that weird things happened, and for a few years my mind held a fascination for this, reading about it and even observing strange phenomena directly.
Then came a phase when I studied astrology, which is basically about geometry, and connecting different moments in time and seeing how the solar system correlates at those moments. Pure mathematics. During that time I also became familiar with Hermetics and learnt about the "as above, so below" law. While studying this in books, I started noticing by myself certain similarities between the various shapes found in the macrocosmos and the microcosmos.
Continuing with my personal search for heaven I discovered that the answers only ever came as long as I was questing, questioning.
The moment I was immersed in worldly matters, only basic knowledge like normal science streamed in, but not all of that made sense. The idea that we were alone in this vast universe was just as weird as the idea that there were others out there.
Yet one or the other had to be true.

So on I went, and started studying religions, mysticism, and even ET theology. And a picture emerged, which had to do with dimensions, which can only be accessed via my own states of consciousness.
So how could I manage my states of consciousness? Well, that is another story, which I will come to later, if you are still interested.
The most important thing here was the realization that heaven was within all of us, if we just knew how to ring the doorbell.
It is not a physical place. Study quantum physics and you will discover that the physical does not exist, other than in the senses, and even then only for brief moments. Stuff changes.
Good luck finding the door to heaven, and hopefully long before you die. Thee really is such a place, or should I say, such a state.

[naste.de.lumina]

How would the paradise of eternal rest?

For example.
A single street with houses facing the sea? Someone would accept a home in paradise on behind the street?

I think..
Everything in the universe is in motion (vibration or frequency). Everything.
Impossible to stand still. Cause mental entropy.
The constant evolution of consciousness requires constant effort.
So the concept of eternal rest in paradise is an illusion.

The need is to believe in paradise is a construction of the mind to calm the spirit.

[soleil]

Thanks for that post. You asked an important question and a lot of Avalonians have asked it, in different format. Here are the various stages of belief I went through before finding 'heaven'.
Early in my life I picked up the idea of heaven and hell from society around me, as an external place, to which one travels after death, depending whether one cut it during life or not.
In other words, right living rather than wrong living would get you there.

Then came my existentialist phase, where all this stuff was rejected. Did you ever read Sartre's famous play, Huis Clos? Hell is other people.
Anyway, in my twenties the paranormal entered my life, although the question of heaven didn't get a clear answer there.
All I discovered was that weird things happened, and for a few years my mind held a fascination for this, reading about it and even observing strange phenomena directly.
Then came a phase when I studied astrology, which is basically about geometry, and connecting different moments in time and seeing how the solar system correlates at those moments. Pure mathematics. During that time I also became familiar with Hermetics and learnt about the "as above, so below" law. While studying this in books, I started noticing by myself certain similarities between the various shapes found in the macrocosmos and the microcosmos.
Continuing with my personal search for heaven I discovered that the answers only ever came as long as I was questing, questioning.
The moment I was immersed in worldly matters, only basic knowledge like normal science streamed in, but not all of that made sense. The idea that we were alone in this vast universe was just as weird as the idea that there were others out there.
Yet one or the other had to be true.

So on I went, and started studying religions, mysticism, and even ET theology. And a picture emerged, which had to do with dimensions, which can only be accessed via my own states of consciousness.
So how could I manage my states of consciousness? Well, that is another story, which I will come to later, if you are still interested.
The most important thing here was the realization that heaven was within all of us, if we just knew how to ring the doorbell.
It is not a physical place. Study quantum physics and you will discover that the physical does not exist, other than in the senses, and even then only for brief moments. Stuff changes.
Good luck finding the door to heaven, and hopefully long before you die. Thee really is such a place, or should I say, such a state.

oooh youre right ulli. sacred geometry was my gateway drug into spirituality believe it or not. THAT lead me to infinity!

[ulli]

Listening to the genius of Terence McKenna here now, I thank you for having brought up this thread.
Nothing is healthier than this quest for heaven.
It is the most healing endeavor there is.

KboPUQ0xCDs

[Kalamos]

..........

[RMorgan]

Hey Nick,

For me, the fact is that nobody wants to die and everyone is, in different degrees, uneasy about what may happen to consciousness after they die.

What are the consequences of this very natural fear or apprehensiveness to people's lives?

Well, those who tend to believe that consciousness will disappear when they die will also tend to enjoy this unique opportunity called life as much as they can...These people are not easy to tame, because they will not tolerate any abuse and they will show serious tendencies to disobey laws that may limit their freedom to live a full life.

So, in general, of course, we may say that this kind of people will tend to become either activists, criminals or a little bit of both. Either way, they will be no good to the system.

Here's when religions and their promises of everlasting happiness or everlasting suffering come handy. Behave yourself and go to heaven. Disobey and go to hell. This is how humans are conditioned a la Pavlovian style, from the moment we're born to the moment we die; Behave yourself and be rewarded; Disobey and be punished. It works just as well in humans like it works on mice, dogs, horses, elephants, bears, etc...

A person who deeply believes in afterlife is much easier to tame, though. A religious person is so much easier to control.

First, many will tolerate all kinds of abuse, because they think it's the will of god and, anyway, they will certainly enjoy a better existence after their physical death. What's a little bit of suffering here if they'll have an eternity of happiness after they die, after all?

Second, they will behave themselves moved by the overwhelming fear of going to hell.

You see, for me, it was always about controlling the masses.

Now, religions apart, metaphysically speaking, of course I have no idea about what happens to our individuality and consciousness after we die. I have absolutely no clue.

Honestly, I don't believe in heaven or hell because they're invariably religious dogmas and I don't believe in religions in the first place.

I live comfortably with this doubt and I try to live a great life while causing as little damage as possible to the planet, humans and other animals. My actions are based on ethics alone, not on what thousands of years old books or any other external control mechanism tell me I should or shouldn't do.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Raf.

[Joe Akulis]

"Firstly, my general views on religion are that since God or gods seem to be part of almost all human cultures throughout history; He/She/It/They either exist and reveal themselves as is appropriate to the culture. Or, on the other hand, all cultures (or the rulers thereof!) deem it necessary to invent a deity/deities - for reasons beyond the scope of my posting here. I'm minded towards this latter explanation."

I might propose an additional view. There seems to be a lot of beings who interacted with our race in the past, prior to our recent Industrial Age, who had access to technoligies that we had never been exposed to before. Did God come down in a "flaming chariot"? Or did an advanced being land here in a rocket propelled ship? It appears to me that we slapped the label "God" on quite a few people who were just more advanced than we were at the time.

[Joe Akulis]

"He’s spending his whole life looking forward to an eternity of unimaginable happiness and contentment..."

Another thought: In the afterlife, is there still such a thing as time? If not, then what is eternity? How do you measure the passage of time without a physical cosmos? If it is measured by the strides you make towards your own personal growth in spirit, then.... seems like an eternity of sitting around doing nothing but enjoying the scenery might pass rather quickly. Like another acquaintance of mine on Avalon once said, heaven is boring.

P.S. I'm referring here to the heavens in the next plane of consciousness, that exist mainly because there are groups of people who share the belief in them. The word heaven is also often used in reference to reuniting with Source, which is a whole different subject.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Conundrum: Everyone wants to get to heaven - but few want to die!

My thoughts: Keeping with the As Above, So Below concept . . . . if you can't create it here, how will you be able to create it there (wherever there is!)

Do you get along with your neighbors, family and co-workers here? Do you look for faults in others here? Do you laugh and find ways to appreciate and enjoy life here? Perhaps if we change how we perceive situations here we will create "the heaven on earth" we have read about.

Not possible you say. Have you tried it?

[SilentFeathers]

Personally I believe in some sort of spirit world and a Creator Of All Things, something beyond this life and reality.....but, even if there isn't anything else after this life here, so what? It sure is great just being able to exist and experience things, even if it is just for a little while.

perhaps the soul is actually an alien life form and the human species was created to house this alien life form as a temporary place for it to be for some reason....and when this body dies the alien life form (soul) returns instantly to its home place.

[donk]

The fear of death is the most obvious driving force of human beings

5zNdMc6wGtU

The idea of heaven is a virus...designed to promote the fear of change (aka life), I couldn't imagine a more hellish existence...

ADDED: just to clarify, by "heaven" I mean the idea of some sort of a "paradise" you exist in for eternity in after your meatbag dies

[Carmen]

The Kingdom of Heaven is in consciousness. It's a state of mind. In it one has "let go, or surrendered" oneself of all 3d concerns and problems. One can then operate from the fourth dimension and beyond. In it problems are "sorted" without any thought or any angst. It is the realm of creation and creative people. Inspiration and original ideas flow in this Kingdom. We can and do switch back and fourth from this realm. It's a gateway to evolution, exploration and adventure. It is a realm beyond reason and intellect and no amount of "thinking" can get us there! Introspection, meditation, any sort of focused intent are the means of finding this mysterious state of mind or state of consciousness. Religions fear of hell is a definite barrier to this realm. They did a number on humanity to ensure that people did not find the Kingdom of Heaven. And hell is more akin to 3d with all it's fears and worries. The mystics of religions have found the Kingdom of Heaven in spite of the church.

When this state of consciousness is realized or touched inadvertently, the mind expands, thought is suspended, energy rushes in, awareness is "now". The feeling is blissful, euphoric, calm, peaceful and kind of floaty. Well, that's my experience anyway. The soul kicks in with its own agenda often,of the life to lead different to the 3d life. It's a definite turning point of purpose and direction. The more one trusts the impulses and direction of inner promptings the more life flows.

Oh, and BTW, after attaining for any length of time,this Kingdom of Heaven, fear of death is gone because we understand that life is eternal.

[naste.de.lumina]

The fear of death is the most obvious driving force of human beings

When we born, we are automatically sentenced to death

[donk]

That doesn't mean it's something to be afraid of...that fear comes from programming. It is a lie that it's "human nature" or a survival instinct...humans rid of that irrational fear are empowered

Heaven, hell, fear of death, fear in general: all tools of control, by disempowering us.

Think about the way you worded it: I wasn't sentenced to anything. I was given the gift of this incarnation, which will change when the meatbag vehicle it requires gives out on me. I don't need to need to know (let alone fear) how my existence will change when it does, but the thought of an eternity of heaven (stagnation) would be frightening--if I believed such a state was possible

[greybeard]

The only thing that everyone can agree on is that each of us is aware that the "I" exists.
My own experience is that this "I" is unchanging and I believe it to eternal.
The awareness that I am is not volitional---it operates --is here and now every waking moment--the me cant shut it off--it may be directed by the me but it is always is present.
So for me existence now and after the body expires is a given--it just is.
Im not afraid of death only the manner of it.
So what then? I dont know but NDE accounts are pretty uniform at least to the point that the experience seemed more real than this "life"
There is also what the most ancient of Indian texts and Sages say---There is a God---One consciousness and we are "That I am"
We leave behind the happiness and misery that everyone encounters,---that is heaven.

Chris

[Kalamos]

..........

[johnf]

My experience has always been, when something is looked at directly
all appearances fall away, and more of what actually exists shows up.
If you follow the evolution of science you will see that the more we look at reality, the more likely it is that we find ourselves in a more complex situation, and the theories never seem to stay put.
In Chris's description of the I, we have a picture of the absolute reality.
The picture, or the word is never the real thing.
Heaven and hell are words that describe various negative and positive "resting" places along the way.
Ideas about these states have been put to various uses down through the ages.
If one keeps mustering the courage to look directly at what shows up within and without,
ones view tends to uncover all sorts of "places" along the journey, some of those seem to be built on the idea of a long rest.
I tend to think that any such rest is temporary, and eventually the journey into the greater reality continues.
Perhaps the ultimate nature of reality itself is that it is never fully cooked.
I had to come back and give credit to Karen Richards for the never fully cooked idea.

jf

[SilentFeathers]

Many believe that when you die your soul goes to the afterlife or "heaven/paradise", etc....what always stumped me for years is what the heck were the Egyptians and some other cultures doing trying so hard to preserve the physical body after death....I've come to the conclusion that they were actually trying to preserve their DNA, perhaps to be "reconstructed" or brought back to life at a later time somehow possibly thinking that their eternal soul would somehow reunite with it's physical part once again....

just sharing thoughts................

[Milneman]

Hey Nick!

This is Dr. Alvin Plantinga's direction, one I jive with.

If we suspect the existence of heaven is improbable, not much follows from that.

There are many things we as people believe that have evidence towards their improbability. Plantinga uses the example: "The evidence that Lisa is an American is evidence against the proposition that she can speak chinese," even though we know from hearing Lisa speak chinese that she can! Just because we know one thing about something that indicates it is false, or the probability is it is false, does not rule out that something is true or could be true.

Of course, your mileage may very. Great discussion!

P.

[Joe Akulis]

"...what the heck were the Egyptians and some other cultures doing trying so hard to preserve the physical body after death..." Anybody know if lots of egyptians that were preserved so well have been found outside of pyramids as well as in? I wondered a few times if they were gaining a benefit from just pyramid power when it comes to the preservation. Or if it really is all because of the way they were embalmed. Just curious.

[greybeard]

"...what the heck were the Egyptians and some other cultures doing trying so hard to preserve the physical body after death..." Anybody know if lots of egyptians that were preserved so well have been found outside of pyramids as well as in? I wondered a few times if they were gaining a benefit from just pyramid power when it comes to the preservation. Or if it really is all because of the way they were embalmed. Just curious.

Cant answer your question but yes there is something special about the shape of pyramids, there certainly seems to be a healing energy.
However it is a total falsity that the Pyramids were used to bury the Pharaohs---not one single body was found in any Pyramid ever.
They were built for a different purpose and much speculation can be found on U tube regarding this.
The Egyptians of that era did have a profound faith in their version of "heaven" and probably reincarnation.

Chris

[Milneman]

Why build one massive structure for one person. Makes more sense to build one massive structure for one purpose. Sort of like an elevator shaft. Shove the pharaoh into the box and SHOOP up he goes. Then take the remains to the valley of the kings and Amon's your uncle.

[ghostrider]

I like to think this way , I believe there is a place outside the physical body where we exsist as spiritual energy , basically a ball of light ... we get absorbed back into creation , waiting 152 yrs and 21 days for a new body to be built , then we come back and start over ... so for me , heaven is being spiritual not physical , free from a body , free to roam the cosmos , and give our knowledge learned over to creation , adding beauty and perspective to the collective so that other worlds and beings and can be forged into a higher state of being ,using what we have learned in our past lifetimes ...

[Anchor]

Raf,

Great post as usual, just one little thing...


.. and everyone is, in different degrees, uneasy about what may happen to consciousness after they die.

I am not uneasy about it in the slightest! Signed sealed and delivered to you this day by my fingers and keyboard.

There are many other reasons to be uneasy about dying - and that is more to do with the mode of death and concern for those who are not dying and from whom you will be separated. That aspect of leaving life for me is likely to be the hard part, but I have no unease about the journey or destination.

[DeDukshyn]

Didn't read the whole thread at all ...

My 2 cents -- Heaven is to be brought -- not earned or found. Well .. maybe found so it can be brought ;)

The end.

[Becky]

I personally would not be that keen to keep this physical body - if I was going to live in a physical body forever i would like a newer better version...just saying!

[deridan]

woo, currently I believe in reincarnation. so after you die you go into a spiritual space equivalent to the level you've reached.
for your next needed life lessons, and incarnation suit gets chosen for you ... the societal family dimension, and also the astral potentials attached with that expression form,
and really this in-between space is everywhere, in that you aren't restricted to one physical planet for return journey,,,though a series of your lessons may have to take place there.

eventually, we escape the need for physical incarnation, and may take an etheric vehicle.
that, or at a certain time, cycles for reincarnation come to an end or are up, Brhama breathes in, cycle ends, or in other versions, final judgement takes place, ...one pit for seperation from the I AM presence and another with for the formers of the next stage.

anycase both realities being true,
one has easterns expression the one, and western religions expression the other.
so socieity is wickedly stupid,,, and the expression of every truth in its sphere leads to a certain amount of attached materials.

no matter, i have a linear view. look forward to better, and then and a while look forward to complete rest.
as far as sex being present throughout creation, male female, electric universe positive negative, kabalic sephirot female projecting into male...
Mohammed's version (pbuh) is not so far off, for the truely right, festival [with sex implied], really does not sound so far off,

now for the wicked task of living, of attaining with Siddhattha modus Nirvanna within even despite being here

[xidaijena]

I do believe in Heaven and Hell in my heart. And it's God's love for me to find Lifechanyuan & the Second Home. The Second Home is a heavenly place on Earth.

Why do I believe? It's a kind of strong faith, my heart tells me. And from the profound teachings of Lifechanyuan Values, I believe more about Heaven. The new life model created in the Second Home is copied the lifestyle of the Thousand-year World which is one place of the Heaven. How do I know it? The 2 years expriences let me feel so.

Share some values about Heaven with all of you here:

"382.Heaven is the general term for Thousand-year World, Ten-thousand-year World, Elysium World, and Celestial Islands Continent.

383.Thousand-year World, Ten-thousand-year World, Elysium World, and Celestial Islands Continent are not fanciful imaginations. They are an inevitability caused by the law that the sum of positive energy and negative energy is zero. Just like the inevitable existence of Mercury, Saturn, Mars, and other planets in the solar system, or the inevitable existence of the seven apertures, hairs, limbs, and the five internal organs in the human body.

384.The Thousand-year World (http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=54&extra=page%3D1) is a celestial body 960 light years away from the earth. About ten times the size of the earth, it is currently inhabited by approximately 200 million people. Because the basic life span of LIFE (celestial being) on this celestial body is about 1000 years (in relation to earth time), it is called Thousand-year World. It is purely a world of sincerity, kindness, and beauty, a world of love, a world of peace, a world of pleasure, and a world of sublimed human nature. Undoubtedly anyone with a perfect human nature can go there, since there is no limitation of number.

385.The Ten-thousand-year World (http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=55&extra=page%3D1)is a beautiful celestial body 3480 light years away from the earth. It is 16 times bigger than the earth and has 16 suns arranged at equal distances. About 100 million celestial beings live there. The basic characteristics of these celestial beings are pretty much the same as those of land celestial beings described by Taoism. In relation to the life span they can live for about 35000 years, and thus the celestial body is called Ten-thousand-year World.

386.The Elysium World (http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=56&extra=page%3D1) is the general term for earth universe (the universe inhabited by man is a small universe and is called the earth universe). The earth universe is so called in relation to other universes. The structure of the earth universe is a Taiji ellipsoid, which is called the Law Rotary Galaxy. The Law Rotary Galaxy contains 3000 Rotary River Galaxies, each of which contains 3000 Milk Way Systems. Each Milk Way System has 3000 solar systems. In another word, the Elysium World is composed of three thousand macro worlds, or nine million medium worlds, or 27 billion small worlds."

From Heaven (http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1353&extra=page%3D1) of 800 Values for New Era Human Being (http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1379)

[Crazy Louie]

the problem is words - how would we explain our existence and what is like to be human to a one cell archaea? and even that is not a good comparison since we exist in the same dimension as archaea. as I sit and type this country music is playing all around me yet I hear none of it (thank god) - yet if I had the right radio I would be able to tune into at least 10000 stations of country music. and even that is not a good comparison to the infinite of possibilities - regarding words - we can talk about it now - but soon we will be existing in those words. (do you believe that? or do you just know we will be existing in something way beyond any words we can string together in any form with any intent?) - I myself do not want any connection to what I am now - I am willing to trust that when the time comes the soul will know where to take itself - I do not want my earth born consciousness to get in the way of anything going on with god and my soul. however the realization is there that I I I I I I has no say in it - IT will take care of itself - if consciousness connection remains hopefully it will not linger for long and only be a spectator for a short period of time before it burns up. I think you can understand what I am saying - its like saying we have to get ourselves our of the way - its like saying the ego defiles us - its like saying the ego is not our true nature - we can understand that to some degree now. so when the time comes I think the question for many will be - do they want to hand their ego over to god so he might end the ego - or will people want to keep it and thus stay tethered to it and suffer more until they finally reach a place where they give it up. so that the soul might move forward. the soul can only move forward without consciousness -ego- personality - the who you think you are - gone - dead - burning - etc. I try to explain but you are your own consciousness - what say I matters not to your ego filters as you read. you have your own words that define you and your beliefs and so it goes --

many mansions in the sky = nonending possibilites of infinite durations - I always wondered why there is nothing really written about what jesus said after he came back - those 40 days of dwelling -- that would seem to be way more important than all the rest of it -- I can only conclude they didn't know what the fock he was talking about. the butterfly speaks and the caterpillars continue to hunt for munch. however since the majority of the apostles were killed for their belief and they had all run away and hid prior to - the time spent with him and wisdom learned but be in the words that came after the synoptic gospels and the gospel of john.

actually concerning death jesus said when we died we went to sleep and stay asleep until his return - however since we would not be aware of time it would seem instantaneous. - "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing."

1 Corinthians 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

[donk]

I agree the problem is with words. You can talk about metaphoric "kingdom of heaven" or whatever and it is a completely seperate topic (so therefore "off topic") than what the OP brings up, which if like to define:

A "paradise" type of existence that whatever YOU are goes to for the rest of your eternal existence, characterized by the feature of having nothing harmful or "negative" occuring

This is I believe is a concept that limits human potential, if you are spending your current incarnation either assuming a ticket in, or worse: feeling like you need to earn it, you are operating on a disempowering fear program

The only thing I found constant in this life, in this existence, as ME, is change...I believe life is change, where this instant now you are inherently different than you were the moment before. I believe the "metaphorical" kingdom of heaven Jesus would have taught about is the acceptance of that fact, and the ability to exist making decisions from knowing it, loving it, living it...NOW...rather than choosing things out fear of our ignorance of what's next to come

[jtcribbs]

Hi Nick, I've been pondering how to respond to your thread for more than an hour and pretty much what I come up with is two approaches:

The first is a simple answer, which is responding to your final explicit question, "So, do many people believe that Heaven...". To that my response is yes Heaven and Hell are real places, as much as Australia, material worlds though in a different way than our physical Earth experience. Consciousness and energy are intrinsic aspects in those places just as here, though likely different in many ways. Evidence for me is that I "see it" quite blatantly as the effects of these higher worlds reach down to this physical Earth (Hell in the wildest sense, the macabre scenes if you will, being a domain of higher worlds). Plenty of experiences on physical Earth are quite clearly a reflection of Hell.

The second approach is looking at where your perspective is currently with demanding evidence for Heaven and Hell. You're looking for some physical sign? Some pattern in our lives that maybe you haven't picked up on? As a practicing scientist I would say that proof is most certainly NOT well defined in science. Science has a vast storehouse of data from measuring this material world which is highly reproducible if that's what you're getting at, but that doesn't mean the data is highly reproducible in every domain science has focused on thus far (i.e. quantum physics, stochastic phenomenon in biology or climatology or geology, etc.). It's common for us modern people to carry this notion around all day that science = solid proof = highly reproducible evidence. After all, really just turning on our electronics daily, or operating our machinery, is yet another experiment that highly reproduces itself. All of the applied science that goes into these inventions has had decades of highly reproducible experiments and so we have these processes going continuously now, and widespread, and we're dependent on them.

But we're kind of living inside of the pinball machine with all of it now. Back before all of this, in early civilization, or the barbarian frontier, we could see that horizon where things were not so black and white, "well-defined", and machine-like. In fact seeing the spirit world reaching down into this world was much more obvious in that state of affairs. You may have had a sibling die in childhood and then as an old man see a child in your village born who you could swear was that old sibling, and others agreed, and people accepted this as "evidence" of reincarnation...yet you wouldn't waste your time pondering "evidence" as it was quite blatantly obvious that this is what occurred.

Do you see what I'm getting at? There are things to see and understand which are beyond the point of demanding evidence...and there were pre-modern and there will be post-modern arrangements where it can be easier to understand this than the present scientific age. In fact typically in life arrangements and experiences which are most physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding the "obviousness" of higher worlds comes shining through even stronger...when we most especially need it. If anything the present highly "evidential world" of high technology we are living through is a lullaby keeping most people asleep in their own fictional, delusional worldviews. And how this came to be has a long complicated history which most people fail to ever investigate (and even in those lessons you would find further "evidence").

I never like that phrase "truth is stranger than fiction" because I don't think it is, ultimately it's simple and yet vast and comforting, never strange. But in that way I do think "truth is more shocking than fiction"...and if you are finding yourself shocked at times then I do think that is a good indication you are on the right path, if that helps any. Take care.