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Tony
11th November 2013, 11:20
How Demons are made

The universe is full of different types of
sentient beings. These have consciousness,
and take on many forms.

To simplify: there are enlightened and
unenlightened beings.The enlightened beings
are selfless, and the unenlightened, selfish – more
or less.

We, as sentient beings, have two potentials:
one is to remain unenlightened and the other is to
become enlightened. In other words, we can be
selfish or selfless.

However, there is a third option. By becoming
extremely selfish, we enter the lineage of demons.

All it takes for a sentient being to become
a demon is to want powers, to claim to have
powers, and to play God. This happens when
sentient beings obtain a little spiritual knowledge,
but lack wisdom and unconditional compassion.

Although we are conscious, we lack the recognition
of our true nature, and therefore we are governed
by likes and dislikes, hopes and fears, attractions
and repulsions. These emotion control us.

As ordinary beings, we are all subject to these
negative emotional forces, but there are those
who believe that they are special – and it is they
who have the demon potential.

By observing their behaviour, it can be seen that
they create misery for others, and feed off this. They hate
wisdom and happiness in others, because it is something
they cannot achieve.
Negativity brings the body's immune system down, and
therefore can affect the mind, or rather distract it.

True compassion and humility is our enlightened
potential. A sentient being's protection against
demonic forces is to realise selfless pure essence
and have compassion for all.

Demons are we, more or less.
Enlightened are we. more or less.

To say, “I don't believe in demons,” is ignoring
the power of self importance.








Tony

halffull
11th November 2013, 11:41
True words

Also negative beings can attach themselves to you and feed off your energy

I think that when you reincarnate these beings that feed are still with you and it takes more effort to become selfless

After many incarnations some people are totally on the negative side

Tony
11th November 2013, 13:10
The more we fight the stronger the illusions appear.

Negative emotions are merely wisdoms.
In the very first instant the emotion is pure awareness,
it sees!

Immediately followed by the second instant of an "I"
..like or don't like, and a reaction takes place.

Anger is fine, aggression is not.
This happens so quickly we do not notice it.
When we see something is wrong we need to be
skilful, intelligent and compassionate to deal with it.



Nothing lasts.
All creations being impermanent, have no true existence:
they have a beginning, a middle and an end.

Emptiness lasts.
Our primordial purity and wisdom, free from elaborations, is luminous awareness,
is never born and never dies.





Tony

sheme
11th November 2013, 20:17
Like attracts like - if you are fearful and of a low vibration you will act as a magnet for such low vibration. It is best not to even dwell on such dross- Raise your vibration with thought and deed smiles and love -do this and these lightless things will not even know you exist. Peace and love for all.

Anchor
11th November 2013, 21:59
I don't even think about Demons most of the time and I pay very little attention to the notion of extreme STS entities.

I bet that annoys them a bit - but I don't mean to annoy them.

The light is always offered.

Sooner or later at the apex of extreme "service to self" a transition to service to the creator must occur.

All will end well, even though the path may be long.

Tony
12th November 2013, 08:08
We need stillness of mind to see clearly. The contents of mind is a virtual reality.
Reality is that which is aware, and that is clarity itself which cuts through these
mere appearances. Anything that distracts us (pure awareness, for without it nothing
would be known) is demonic activity, it clouds our minds. Mind controls!

When the mind is clear we can see what is going on, until then we get lost in theories
and programming. Disruptive activity is what demons/archon are all about.

Anything you see has no reality.
The reality is in the seeing,
and not in what is seen.



Tony

w1ndmill
12th November 2013, 13:38
I believe in demons and I believe they are running the world. Tony, your post infers that to rid ourselves of them we have to become demons ourselves . . . . and yet turning the other cheek, or turning inward is allowing them to run amok and keep the world in a lower vibration. They will keep this up forever and a day if we allow it. If we wait for the very last person to become enlightened before moving on it's going to be a long, long ride and I'm getting fed up with it already.

I wonder whether people who don't believe in demons are happier than those who do. Does believing in something so negative give the person a responsibility to do something about it I wonder?

Tony
12th November 2013, 14:04
I believe in demons and I believe they are running the world. Tony, your post infers that to rid ourselves of them we have to become demons ourselves . . . . and yet turning the other cheek, or turning inward is allowing them to run amok and keep the world in a lower vibration. They will keep this up forever and a day if we allow it. If we wait for the very last person to become enlightened before moving on it's going to be a long, long ride and I'm getting fed up with it already.

I wonder whether people who don't believe in demons are happier than those who do. Does believing in something so negative give the person a responsibility to do something about it I wonder?

Hello Linda

I am writing only from a Buddhist perspective. We have a dark side and a light side - selfish and selfless. However, there are sentient beings who have gone to the extremes of darkness, but they can have no effect on the light.

There is a point of view - and I agree with this - that we need to recognise the dark (our selfishness) in order to know what it is that we are letting go. In the final moments before enlightenment, the Buddha was tempted by demons: they can actually be of benefit. It's like trying to talk to a very silly person: you realise that their arguments have no substance and they wish to argue for the sake of arguing (I know I used to do this!) and you can just be compassionate. It is that simple.

We need to differentiate between the fear mongering military political machine (which can effect our physical bodies), and the selfishness that is within us all. If we could get a clear picture that everything actually takes place in mind consciousness and not "out there", we could see that we constantly have a choice to become stressed or relaxed. Everything takes place in our mind. It won't stop people being disagreeable - this will always happen! - but it will stop our reaction to that, and therefore they have no control over us. To be honest, love is challenging ;) but that challenge is part of our spiritual practice. Not to hold on to our reactions or create further karma.

The so-called dark entities do not run this world: those are just extremely naughty people caught up in their own stupidity and selfishness. A demon is embodied selfishness. In most religions such power is depicted as an evil creature, but this is symbolic and is used as propaganda us, and is not to be taken literally.

Like it or not, demon activity and enlightened activity are in all of us. It is part of being human or sentient, and we will all deal with these in our our own good time and in our own way. This is not to praise or condemn...it's just how it is. If we're looking for a perfect world, this will only be found in an understanding of the unity of absolute and relative reality, one reflecting the other.

To put it simply, we are pure, empty, cognisant essence. That is the enlightened state. We, as sentient beings, have filled this empty essence with concepts. This distracts empty essence from recognising its true nature, and this happened when we created a mental image of ourselves, rather than just resting in our true nature. My greatest concern is that there are those around who want to stir up people's minds and emotions so that they doubt themselves.

Hope you're well!
Tony

greybeard
12th November 2013, 14:23
I dont believe in demons--- however its probably a definition thing.
I could say Ive had my personal demon and that was addiction to alcohol.
Now that I can smile at that--- My thought is "Who the hell needs external demons--I can create my own, thank you very much"

I choose not to now.

A story
The dragon slayer was dying---the villagers terrified at the though of being defenceless against the dragon begged the slayer not to die.
His dying words were "I think you will find that when I am gone the dragon will have gone also"

Chris

Tony
12th November 2013, 14:56
For some, any discomfort is demon activity.
One merely recognises it and gets on with the job.

QaMXv02CC-c

Tony
12th November 2013, 15:13
I dont believe in demons--- however its probably a definition thing.
I could say Ive had my personal demon and that was addiction to alcohol.
Now that I can smile at that--- My thought is "Who the hell needs external demons--I can create my own, thank you very much"

I choose not to now.

A story
The dragon slayer was dying---the villagers terrified at the though of being defenceless against the dragon begged the slayer not to die.
His dying words were "I think you will find that when I am gone the dragon will have gone also"

Chris



Hello Chris,
I like the dragon story.
When the dragon slayer let go, so had the dragon...for the dragon slayer.

....unfortunately the villagers hadn't!;)


Between you and me, I find there are demons all over the place,
in pride, jealousy, aversion, desire and ignorance and are quite
intense and inviting. Clever little devils...but one tracked!




Tony

Dorjezigzag
12th November 2013, 15:43
All it takes for a sentient being to become
a demon is to want powers, to claim to have
powers, and to play God. This happens when
sentient beings obtain a little spiritual knowledge,
but lack wisdom and unconditional compassion.

A desire for power can be very destructive but I would disagree that a claim to have powers would necessarily make someone a demon. If this claim is true then it is merely a statement of fact. To those who manifest such abilities there is nothing special about it, it just is.

If someone calls someone a demon just because they claim to have powers would say more about the person pointing the demon finger than the person claiming the power. Perhaps that person who thinks themselves spiritually advanced and 'pure' and yet has no powers is jealous of those that do.

The Blessed One (Bhagava)

The Buddha is endowed with the six things:
(1) Lordship [Issariya],
(2) Doctrine [Dhamma],
(3) Fame [Yasa],
(4) Glory [Siri],
(5) Wish [Kama], and
(6) Endeavor [Payatta],
thus He is called the Blessed One.

1). He has the supreme lordship over His own mind as follows:
i. Anima – power to make the body minute (e.g. making the size of an atom),
ii. Laghima – power to make the body light (e.g. walking on air),
iii. Mahima – power to make the body huge,
iv. Patti – power to arrive where He wants to go,
v. Pakamma – power to produce what He wants by resolving, etc.,
vi. Isita – power to make anyone or anything follow His wishes,
vii. Vasita – power to create at will water, fire, etc., and
viii. Yatthakamavasayita – power to attain the perfection in all ways in Him who wants to go through the air or do anything else of the sort.
2). He has the supramundane Dhamma.
3). He has the greatly pure fame, spread through the three worlds, attained through the quality of veracity.
4). He has the glory of all limbs, perfect in every appearance, which is capable of comforting the eyes of people eager to see His material body.
5). He has the wish i.e., accomplishment of whatever is wanted by Him whether it be for His own benefit or for another’s (others’).
6). And He has the endeavor, the right effort, which is the reason why the whole world reveres Him.

Tony
12th November 2013, 16:20
All it takes for a sentient being to become
a demon is to want powers, to claim to have
powers, and to play God. This happens when
sentient beings obtain a little spiritual knowledge,
but lack wisdom and unconditional compassion.

A desire for power can be very destructive but I would disagree that a claim to have powers would necessarily make someone a demon. If this claim is true then it is merely a statement of fact. To those who manifest such abilities there is nothing special about it, it just is.

If someone calls someone a demon just because they claim to have powers would say more about the person pointing the demon finger than the person claiming the power. Perhaps that person who thinks themselves spiritually advanced and 'pure' and yet has no powers is jealous of those that do.

The Blessed One (Bhagava)

The Buddha is endowed with the six things:
(1) Lordship [Issariya],
(2) Doctrine [Dhamma],
(3) Fame [Yasa],
(4) Glory [Siri],
(5) Wish [Kama], and
(6) Endeavor [Payatta],
thus He is called the Blessed One.

1). He has the supreme lordship over His own mind as follows:
i. Anima – power to make the body minute (e.g. making the size of an atom),
ii. Laghima – power to make the body light (e.g. walking on air),
iii. Mahima – power to make the body huge,
iv. Patti – power to arrive where He wants to go,
v. Pakamma – power to produce what He wants by resolving, etc.,
vi. Isita – power to make anyone or anything follow His wishes,
vii. Vasita – power to create at will water, fire, etc., and
viii. Yatthakamavasayita – power to attain the perfection in all ways in Him who wants to go through the air or do anything else of the sort.
2). He has the supramundane Dhamma.
3). He has the greatly pure fame, spread through the three worlds, attained through the quality of veracity.
4). He has the glory of all limbs, perfect in every appearance, which is capable of comforting the eyes of people eager to see His material body.
5). He has the wish i.e., accomplishment of whatever is wanted by Him whether it be for His own benefit or for another’s (others’).
6). And He has the endeavor, the right effort, which is the reason why the whole world reveres Him.


Meditative experiences are very seductive, and one should be aware of that.
It all too easy to become 'puffed up'. These experiences are called Nyam in Tibetan.


There are those that get excited by them, but they can distract from realisation and
purifying karma. Once enlightened I'm sure we can be of benefit to others in all sorts
of interesting ways. Personally I have no wish to walk on water.




Tony

Jake
12th November 2013, 16:37
Hi Tony. Thank you for the thought provoking (and soul calming) wisdom. I disagree with much of it. It just seems strange to me that someone would claims to NOT exist, obviously, exists,, or the typing into the dialogue box would not be possible. Maybe we should agree that this particular 'space of existence' (wether illusory or not) was created!!!! :) And whatever imbalance EXISTS within the cosmic consciousness,,, YOU are part of it... (or you would not be here) Just a suggestion, obviously I do not come from an all-knowing, religious angle. I tend to find it strange to be considered purely delusional by a religious person.


I have heard different stories as to how the word Demon came to be a normal part of our paradigm. Did it come from the Greeks, did it come from the Hypostasis of the Archons? Did it come from the Bible? It becomes quite important (in my small humble opinion) that if one wants to assume that they have a lock on where demons come from,,, they choose which definition of Demon applies.

I take your words in. Yet, I must take in my own experiences. Yes,,, the creation and manifestation of personal 'demons' (by your definition) exists,,, absolutely. Self created/ self appointed little buggers that ride our own negative defaults.
Tony, of course there are demons. And,,, of course they exist without humans... I could give you different definitions of the word DEMON,,, but I suppose it doesn't matter,,, because nothing exists anyways,,,, yikes!!!! (Someone is going to have to explain to me why it is important for some people to INSIST that they do not exist... Isn't the act of insisting that you don't exist,,, proof that you DO EXIST??) TOO many flaws in that mindset,,,, IMHO....

Demons are created in a plethora of ways, and do NOT require HUMANS for their existence.

Are you referring to the Archonic definition of the word demon? The Hebrew definition?? What is Tony's definition of the word Demon??? If Tony does not exist,,, who is handing out the calming words of wisdom. I wonder if I am free to determine the answer to these questions on my own??? I wonder why it is soooo important for folks to DENY the existence of demons,,,, especially when they come from a mindset that NOTHING EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Seems a bit redundant. IMHO.... Insisting that the world exists only within ones own limited perspective is flawed. Trust me,,, Tony, I gave up on it, and have been freed. As you well know, I have much experience with the illusory nature of physicality,, even reality. EXISTENCE is a different beast. If one does not exist, then one does not have a valid opinion, No?

I love your perspective,,, It causes me to challenge my own. Thank you in advance for not taking this post as an insult or an attack on you. You may be one of the only ones who can walk me through this. Much of my attitude comes from the fact that religious people can make statements like that, but cannot explain it. I don't even ask for proof. Just a coherent explanation. Please fix me, tony... lol.. (Seriously, I'm not trying to be TOO obtuse.. just a bit...:))

Quite confused.
Jake.

Tony
12th November 2013, 16:50
Hi Tony. Thank you for the thought provoking (and soul calming) wisdom. I disagree with much of it. It just seems strange to me that someone would claims to NOT exist, obviously, exists,, or the typing into the dialogue box would not be possible. Maybe we should agree that this particular 'space of existence' (wether illusory or not) was created!!!! :) And whatever imbalance EXISTS within the cosmic consciousness,,, YOU are part of it... (or you would not be here) Just a suggestion, obviously I do not come from an all-knowing, religious angle. I tend to find it strange to be considered purely delusional by a religious person.


I have heard different stories as to how the word Demon came to be a normal part of our paradigm. Did it come from the Greeks, did it come from the Hypostasis of the Archons? Did it come from the Bible? It becomes quite important (in my small humble opinion) that if one wants to assume that they have a lock on where demons come from,,, they choose which definition of Demon applies.

I take your words in. Yet, I must take in my own experiences. Yes,,, the creation and manifestation of personal 'demons' (by your definition) exists,,, absolutely. Self created/ self appointed little buggers that ride our own negative defaults.
Tony, of course there are demons. And,,, of course they exist without humans... I could give you different definitions of the word DEMON,,, but I suppose it doesn't matter,,, because nothing exists anyways,,,, yikes!!!! (Someone is going to have to explain to me why it is important for some people to INSIST that they do not exist... Isn't the act of insisting that you don't exist,,, proof that you DO EXIST??) TOO many flaws in that mindset,,,, IMHO....

Demons are created in a plethora of ways, and do NOT require HUMANS for their existence.

Are you referring to the Archonic definition of the word demon? The Hebrew definition?? What is Tony's definition of the word Demon??? If Tony does not exist,,, who is handing out the calming words of wisdom. I wonder if I am free to determine the answer to these questions on my own??? I wonder why it is soooo important for folks to DENY the existence of demons,,,, especially when they come from a mindset that NOTHING EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Seems a bit redundant. IMHO.... Insisting that the world exists only within ones own limited perspective is flawed. Trust me,,, Tony, I gave up on it, and have been freed. As you well know, I have much experience with the illusory nature of physicality,, even reality. EXISTENCE is a different beast. If one does not exist, then one does not have a valid opinion, No?

I love your perspective,,, It causes me to challenge my own. Thank you in advance for not taking this post as an insult or an attack on you. You may be one of the only ones who can walk me through this. Much of my attitude comes from the fact that religious people can make statements like that, but cannot explain it. I don't even ask for proof. Just a coherent explanation. Please fix me, tony... lol.. (Seriously, I'm not trying to be TOO obtuse.. just a bit...:))

Quite confused.
Jake.




Hello Jake,

There is a great difference between Tony with personality
and Tony without personality.

When in meditation (on a good day) Tony with personality dissolves
into Tony without personality (pure awareness).

After meditation Tony can either resume a personality or let the personality go.
Because Tony is not enlightened he lapses into a habitual personality, but there
are time when he just is.

Once one has an experience of pure awareness (which is dry) one can introduce
a mere i, enough to function and communicate...and love.

This was clearly explained to me by my teacher, which I found to be true.



I hope that helps,
Tony


NB. Tony with personality does not truly exist, it is a confused occurrence which clouds Tony without personality. There is nothing wrong with a personality as long as it is not exaggerated or disagreeable.

Dorjezigzag
12th November 2013, 16:50
All it takes for a sentient being to become
a demon is to want powers, to claim to have
powers, and to play God. This happens when
sentient beings obtain a little spiritual knowledge,
but lack wisdom and unconditional compassion.

A desire for power can be very destructive but I would disagree that a claim to have powers would necessarily make someone a demon. If this claim is true then it is merely a statement of fact. To those who manifest such abilities there is nothing special about it, it just is.

If someone calls someone a demon just because they claim to have powers would say more about the person pointing the demon finger than the person claiming the power. Perhaps that person who thinks themselves spiritually advanced and 'pure' and yet has no powers is jealous of those that do.

The Blessed One (Bhagava)

The Buddha is endowed with the six things:
(1) Lordship [Issariya],
(2) Doctrine [Dhamma],
(3) Fame [Yasa],
(4) Glory [Siri],
(5) Wish [Kama], and
(6) Endeavor [Payatta],
thus He is called the Blessed One.

1). He has the supreme lordship over His own mind as follows:
i. Anima – power to make the body minute (e.g. making the size of an atom),
ii. Laghima – power to make the body light (e.g. walking on air),
iii. Mahima – power to make the body huge,
iv. Patti – power to arrive where He wants to go,
v. Pakamma – power to produce what He wants by resolving, etc.,
vi. Isita – power to make anyone or anything follow His wishes,
vii. Vasita – power to create at will water, fire, etc., and
viii. Yatthakamavasayita – power to attain the perfection in all ways in Him who wants to go through the air or do anything else of the sort.
2). He has the supramundane Dhamma.
3). He has the greatly pure fame, spread through the three worlds, attained through the quality of veracity.
4). He has the glory of all limbs, perfect in every appearance, which is capable of comforting the eyes of people eager to see His material body.
5). He has the wish i.e., accomplishment of whatever is wanted by Him whether it be for His own benefit or for another’s (others’).
6). And He has the endeavor, the right effort, which is the reason why the whole world reveres Him.


Meditative experiences are very seductive, and one should be aware of that.
It all too easy to become 'puffed up'. These experiences are called Nyam in Tibetan.


There are those that get excited by them, but they can distract from realisation and
purifying karma. Once enlightened I'm sure we can be of benefit to others in all sorts
of interesting ways. Personally I have no wish to walk on water.




Tony

What does Nayam have to do with my post


Nyam (Tibetan): any interesting but transient experience that comes up in meditation, such as bliss, insight or clarity. Meditators are advised not to make too much of them.

I am referring to real power, which is not exclusive to the enlightened ( if indeed such a state really exists) and does not necessarily manifest through meditation

Power can corrupt, there are very few people who can handle it, but imagine if we have telepathy, no one can lie, if we can locate wherever we choose, no more need for corrupt fossil fuel companies, etc,etc

You're example of walking on water makes power seem frivolous, but there could be so many benefits of power if used mindfully and compassionately. Also there are many examples of the potential destructive qualities of power both to self and others.

Of course those that like to control do not like people to develop powers because then they are not easily controllable, they like to be in possession of all the power. There are many things that can be learned from the Tibetan Buddhist system, which is a fusion of the shamanic Bon tradition and Buddhism but we must be mindful that it is a religion and a system of control.

Tony
12th November 2013, 17:00
All it takes for a sentient being to become
a demon is to want powers, to claim to have
powers, and to play God. This happens when
sentient beings obtain a little spiritual knowledge,
but lack wisdom and unconditional compassion.

A desire for power can be very destructive but I would disagree that a claim to have powers would necessarily make someone a demon. If this claim is true then it is merely a statement of fact. To those who manifest such abilities there is nothing special about it, it just is.

If someone calls someone a demon just because they claim to have powers would say more about the person pointing the demon finger than the person claiming the power. Perhaps that person who thinks themselves spiritually advanced and 'pure' and yet has no powers is jealous of those that do.

The Blessed One (Bhagava)

The Buddha is endowed with the six things:
(1) Lordship [Issariya],
(2) Doctrine [Dhamma],
(3) Fame [Yasa],
(4) Glory [Siri],
(5) Wish [Kama], and
(6) Endeavor [Payatta],
thus He is called the Blessed One.

1). He has the supreme lordship over His own mind as follows:
i. Anima – power to make the body minute (e.g. making the size of an atom),
ii. Laghima – power to make the body light (e.g. walking on air),
iii. Mahima – power to make the body huge,
iv. Patti – power to arrive where He wants to go,
v. Pakamma – power to produce what He wants by resolving, etc.,
vi. Isita – power to make anyone or anything follow His wishes,
vii. Vasita – power to create at will water, fire, etc., and
viii. Yatthakamavasayita – power to attain the perfection in all ways in Him who wants to go through the air or do anything else of the sort.
2). He has the supramundane Dhamma.
3). He has the greatly pure fame, spread through the three worlds, attained through the quality of veracity.
4). He has the glory of all limbs, perfect in every appearance, which is capable of comforting the eyes of people eager to see His material body.
5). He has the wish i.e., accomplishment of whatever is wanted by Him whether it be for His own benefit or for another’s (others’).
6). And He has the endeavor, the right effort, which is the reason why the whole world reveres Him.


Meditative experiences are very seductive, and one should be aware of that.
It all too easy to become 'puffed up'. These experiences are called Nyam in Tibetan.


There are those that get excited by them, but they can distract from realisation and
purifying karma. Once enlightened I'm sure we can be of benefit to others in all sorts
of interesting ways. Personally I have no wish to walk on water.




Tony

What does Nayam have to do with my post

Nyam (Tibetan): any interesting but transient experience that comes up in meditation, such as bliss, insight or clarity. Meditators are advised not to make too much of them.

I am referring to real power, which is not exclusive to the enlightened ( if indeed such a state really exists) and does not necessarily manifest through meditation

Power can corrupt, there are very few people who can handle it, but imagine if we have telepathy, no one can lie, if we can locate wherever we choose, no more need for corrupt fossil fuel companies, etc,etc

You're example of walking on water makes power seem frivolous, but there could be so many benefits of power if used mindfully and compassionately. Also there are many examples of the potential destructive qualities of power both to self and others.

Of course those that like to control do not like people to develop powers because then they are not easily controllable, they like to be in possession of all the power. There are many things that can be learned from the Tibetan Buddhist system, which is a fusion of the shamanic Bon tradition and Buddhism but we must be mindful that it is a religion and a system of control.

Hello Dorje,

Knowledge is neutral, we can either be used it destructively or to benefit.
There are teachings that I and others are not privy to, as we are not stable yet.

Power can corrupt, especially when we cannot control our emotions.



Tony

Calamus
12th November 2013, 17:06
..........

Dorjezigzag
12th November 2013, 17:14
There are teachings that I and others are not privy to

Many people who have manifested powers have not necessarily been taught, such as through hidden scriptures or a master and apprentice relationship.

You could say they have been taught through fate and experience, but the point I am making power is not necessarily equated with devouring words.
and scriptures and the commands of a teacher.

Actually you may well have been exposed to such teachings, but you would not realize they are as such because you cannot see them, you see the words but you do not see the power.

Jake
12th November 2013, 17:18
Hi Tony. Thank you for the thought provoking (and soul calming) wisdom. I disagree with much of it. It just seems strange to me that someone would claims to NOT exist, obviously, exists,, or the typing into the dialogue box would not be possible. Maybe we should agree that this particular 'space of existence' (wether illusory or not) was created!!!! :) And whatever imbalance EXISTS within the cosmic consciousness,,, YOU are part of it... (or you would not be here) Just a suggestion, obviously I do not come from an all-knowing, religious angle. I tend to find it strange to be considered purely delusional by a religious person.


I have heard different stories as to how the word Demon came to be a normal part of our paradigm. Did it come from the Greeks, did it come from the Hypostasis of the Archons? Did it come from the Bible? It becomes quite important (in my small humble opinion) that if one wants to assume that they have a lock on where demons come from,,, they choose which definition of Demon applies.

I take your words in. Yet, I must take in my own experiences. Yes,,, the creation and manifestation of personal 'demons' (by your definition) exists,,, absolutely. Self created/ self appointed little buggers that ride our own negative defaults.
Tony, of course there are demons. And,,, of course they exist without humans... I could give you different definitions of the word DEMON,,, but I suppose it doesn't matter,,, because nothing exists anyways,,,, yikes!!!! (Someone is going to have to explain to me why it is important for some people to INSIST that they do not exist... Isn't the act of insisting that you don't exist,,, proof that you DO EXIST??) TOO many flaws in that mindset,,,, IMHO....

Demons are created in a plethora of ways, and do NOT require HUMANS for their existence.

Are you referring to the Archonic definition of the word demon? The Hebrew definition?? What is Tony's definition of the word Demon??? If Tony does not exist,,, who is handing out the calming words of wisdom. I wonder if I am free to determine the answer to these questions on my own??? I wonder why it is soooo important for folks to DENY the existence of demons,,,, especially when they come from a mindset that NOTHING EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Seems a bit redundant. IMHO.... Insisting that the world exists only within ones own limited perspective is flawed. Trust me,,, Tony, I gave up on it, and have been freed. As you well know, I have much experience with the illusory nature of physicality,, even reality. EXISTENCE is a different beast. If one does not exist, then one does not have a valid opinion, No?

I love your perspective,,, It causes me to challenge my own. Thank you in advance for not taking this post as an insult or an attack on you. You may be one of the only ones who can walk me through this. Much of my attitude comes from the fact that religious people can make statements like that, but cannot explain it. I don't even ask for proof. Just a coherent explanation. Please fix me, tony... lol.. (Seriously, I'm not trying to be TOO obtuse.. just a bit...:))

Quite confused.
Jake.




Hello Jake,

There is a great difference between Tony with personality
and Tony without personality.

When in meditation (on a good day) Tony with personality dissolves
into Tony without personality (pure awareness).

After meditation Tony can either resume a personality or let the personality go.
Because Tony is not enlightened he lapses into a habitual personality, but there
are time when he just is.

Once one has an experience of pure awareness (which is dry) one can introduce
a mere i, enough to function and communicate...and love.

This was clearly explained to me by my teacher, which I found to be true.



I hope that helps,
Tony


NB. Tony with personality does not truly exist, it is a confused occurrence which clouds Tony without personality. There is nothing wrong with a personality as long as it is not exaggerated or disagreeable.

Actually, That helps quite a bit. Thank you. Tony with personality (Tony endowed and animated by consciousness) ?? Tony without personality (pure awareness) I like it. So the experience of pure awareness brings you to a place where (little tony) ((forgive the Ickeian wording)) does not exist. Moreover, the experience of pure awareness changes the definition of existence, as defined by little me. (Jake continues to think out loud.) Tony, I do not disagree with you. Forgive me for splitting hairs on this one. From my experiences, I have taken away many things. I am learning that I must give all of that up, everything,, before returning to a place of pure awareness. Complete and utter surrender. Consciousness emanates outward in spheres of knowing. From a central source. Stripping away the ego, and becoming one with consciousness is the preferred, overall, state of being. Which is the true 'state' of being. Balanced and nonexistent.

I consider that consciousness is not a single sphere,,, but many different spheres pulsing out and experiencing and creating as it goes. I have seen it. I do not know that the current wave of consciousness that we 'ride' is the only one. I see different spheres, coming into existence together. And not all of them consider reality in the same ways. Many different 'axiom sets'. (so to speak)

One definition of the word Demon comes from interaction with different/malevolent spheres of consciousness. We are not alone in this. All of the physical aspects of life tend to take away from the true nature of being. But I consider it necessary. We are not alone. I am not talking aliens. I am talking consciousness. The reason I asked for a definition of DEMon,, is because it seems to be the only word in the human languages that comes close to defining an extra-dimensional consciousness, not from within our own 'sphere'. I don't like the word either. But if I use the word Archon,, yikes,, you see, I don't like that word either. I posit that inter-dimensional life forces use our own 'self created' DEMONS as a place of refuge. And that trying to put this into coherent terms has been THE main focus of ALL religions. And, they have all fallen short... imho... These parasitic life forces are NOT INTELLEGENT. They are simply better at recognizing our own patterns than we are. And, YES, it is our own doing.

6 in one hand half dozen in the other. To simply say that it doesn't matter, because we don't exist anyways,, is,,, well not helpful. IMHO.

Thank you for helping me to talk to myself... :):)
Jake.

Tony
12th November 2013, 18:29
Dear Jake

I agree entirely with you! As our understanding grows, our understanding grows ;)

Tony

greybeard
12th November 2013, 21:38
Another way of putting what Tony is saying.

If you define truth as constant, never changing, always the same, it make it easier to see that the only thing that never changes is awareness.
You are that awareness.
Everything else rises and subsides in the field of consciousness/awareness.

Eckhart Tolle keeps hammering on about NOW.
The enlightened are aware of timelessness.
Everything appears and disappears in the eternal moment which is unchanged by the coming and going of phenomena.
Awareness is aware of being aware without the need for an object to confirm its aware.
It just is---unmoved.
You are permanently formless temporarily manifested into form (the body)
Never born never to die.
According to the mystics like Ramana-- you existed before universes and will exist after universes dissolve as they must do.
Formless becomes form, then returns to formless.
The ancients called this "The out breath and the in breath of God"
All form is the thought of God--- called also Indra's dream.

You being "I am That I am" are in this "world" as a dreamer, time being. Hence the expression to awaken.

Eckhart Tolle once said "There was never anyone there to do anything to you"
That takes some believing.
Al kinds of things can happen in a dream but you awake unscathed.

Hope this is helpful.

Chris

skippy
13th November 2013, 07:14
Anything that distracts us (pure awareness, for without it nothing would be known) is demonic activity, it clouds our minds. Mind controls!

Hi Tony, thanks for bringing this up. My question is how can we use this in modern life, if possible? Let me explain. Following your definition above, one can say that we are surrounded by demonic activity, e.g. mass-mind control via media, advertisement, internet, education, etc. Distractions all over the place. Most of the time we find ourselves partaking in and even at the root of those distractions. Think of all those people making a living in the marketing & sales of silly products. Engagement (reacting to distractions) is necessary to make a living and to feed our families. But, how to deal with ever increasing distractions and keep functioning in modern society? Off course, we can consider play in a bigger play, but it will not last very long. Thinking up loud here.

markpierre
13th November 2013, 07:37
I'm tryin to create demons. They come out of the oven as angels. Something's gone wrong.

I'm really off that pure awareness stuff. It feels nice. Bourbon felt nice. That's what I left, to do stuff here.
I can as easily become a pure awareness junky. I would strive for that experience we came here to have first.
The one you're having thinking it isn't good enough. Pure awareness has no identity. No one likes no identity
enough to have none. Why don't you exalt the one you got? You can have as much fun as you like when you're dead.

Hazel
13th November 2013, 08:43
An edifying and beautiful flow of conversation that re-affirms and expands upon so much..
thank you to all.

My experiential advice as to 'demons':

Step 1. Shake hands with the inner/external/externalized demon(s)
Step 2. Get to know it/them well
Step 3. Release 'it' as a friendly ghost of former manifestation of self/other
Step 4. If/when the ghost revisits aknowledge it for its 'strengths' learned from/shared.. but then banish 'it' as a shadow from the past.

Step 5. Walk forward in the practice of someone unemcumbered by Maya

Tony
13th November 2013, 09:07
Anything that distracts us (pure awareness, for without it nothing would be known) is demonic activity, it clouds our minds. Mind controls!

Hi Tony, thanks for bringing this up. My question is how can we use this in modern life, if possible? Let me explain. Following your definition above, one can say that we are surrounded by demonic activity, e.g. mass-mind control via media, advertisement, internet, education, etc. Distractions all over the place. Most of the time we find ourselves partaking in and even at the root of those distractions. Think of all those people making a living in the marketing & sales of silly products. Engagement (reacting to distractions) is necessary to make a living and to feed our families. But, how to deal with ever increasing distractions and keep functioning in modern society? Off course, we can consider play in a bigger play, but it will not last very long. Thinking up loud here.




Hello Skippy,

Good question.
We are in this samsaric world and we do have to function in it.
Samsara is just a word which means the constant cycle of neurotic
existence.

Just recognising this is the cause for liberation.
The first noble truth in Buddhism is acknowledging suffering.
The second noble truth is recognising the cause of suffering.
The third noble truth is recognising the path away from suffering.
The fourth noble truth is treading that path.

As sentient being on earth we are part of the traffic jam...the mess.
I think it all comes down to, our reaction to this situation. We all have
to play a part in creating desirable things for others to buy, so we may feed
ourselves and the family.

One enlightened master crushed mustard seeds for a living, another was a
doorman at a brothel! There names were Tilopa and Naropa.

We are all here dealing with our concepts about ourselves and the emotions.
As long as we are not harming others in body speech and mind,
we are on the right road.

Our conscience is our guide. I used to do advertising and graphics for
Pharmaceutical companies, and did the best I could. There was something about
it all that didn't feel right, so I left. There is always someone else to take my place!

As we learn, we refine our activities, and move on...hopefully.
The phrase spontaneous presence keeps coming to mind. In the present moment
we know what feels right. Wherever we find ourselves is due to our past action,
we just allow that situation to be, without reacting and creating more of the same.

With the right motivation and spontaneous presence, effortlessly things change.
It's as if space has been cleared for us ...call it blessings.

Even though we talk of suffering, we can still have fun. This playing with the two
truths, seeing absolute truth in relative truth, that everything is impermanent,
even our jobs. Saying that we still have to respect relative reality, it's our play ground.

Yes, there is psychological mind control going on, which can effect the mind,
but it cannot effect essence...as there is no 'thing' there.

People get a bit angry and aggressive on forums, that is an attempt to mind control.
If we get angry back, we are doing the very same thing. This is where understanding,
intelligence and compassion is needed. This is also the way to exhaust karma.


Relax and don't worry, life will throw stuff at us. We can either throw it back (maintaining
samsara) or note it, let it be, then allow spontaneous compassion to express itself.

Lousy answer, great question,
Tony

Tony
13th November 2013, 09:12
I'm tryin to create demons. They come out of the oven as angels. Something's gone wrong.

I'm really off that pure awareness stuff. It feels nice. Bourbon felt nice. That's what I left, to do stuff here.
I can as easily become a pure awareness junky. I would strive for that experience we came here to have first.
The one you're having thinking it isn't good enough. Pure awareness has no identity. No one likes no identity
enough to have none. Why don't you exalt the one you got? You can have as much fun as you like when you're dead.



Pure awareness is just a phrase for pure essence... what you are.
Yes, it has no 'identity' but it can perfectly express itself as essence love.


Tony

Tony
14th November 2013, 08:52
Waking up to our potential.

This is an individual process for all of us. I thought I'd describe some personal experiences to illustrate what can happen, and maybe it will be of help :rolleyes:

After many years of prayer and meditation, I ended up more angry than when I started.

Then, one day, my teacher said,
“To enter the Vajrayana path we need:
Intense emotions
Intense intelligence
Intense compassion

(you could have knocked me over with a feather!)

Then, I had a problem with deity devotional practice (the antidote to pride, as pride stops progress.). My teacher said, “OK. You don't have to do it.”
Well, I wasn't going to be told not to do something! Can you see how it worked?

This is the spontaneous presence of the teacher (a bit like 'Karate Kid'... “wax on, wax off”). Suddenly I understood. Everything snapped into place.
There was a realisation that the negative emotions were, in the first instant, essence wisdom. And, that demonic activity (human as well as non human)
cannot touch pure empty essence, as there is nothing to get hold of, nothing to gain. They simply cannot deal with it.

Then, the greatest test was dealing with negative people for three years (of course, you don't see many of them around here :o ).
This gave me the chance to practise the six paramitas: generosity, discipline, patience, perseverance, meditation and transcendent knowledge.
These disciplines cut through one's own aggression, which has a knock-on effect. Gradually we wake up to the real Dharma.

Do you see how it can work?

It wasn't books that did it. Nor was it my personal efforts (though motivation was present). It was the interaction with a genuine teacher and a genuine path.
The teacher made no effort, but just remained in spontaneous presence...making seemingly casual remarks. My reactions did the rest.

There are four types of teacher: they all reveal the inner teacher, and cut through pride.
One's main teacher is known as a root teacher, and is the one who shows you the nature of mind, without doubt. Then there is the scriptorial teacher
(this could be a person or a text) who supports practice. These two teachers – the scriptorial and the root - together uncover the inner teacher,
our own minds - the real teacher. From that point, we then understand the symbolic teacher of all situations - the whole of the phenomenal universe -
relative truth which reflects the absolute truth of the insubstantiality of everything – emptiness.

All that is now needed is to function as a human, noting our reactions while not allowing them to create more karma, and thereby exhausting karma.
It's an ongoing process, moment to moment.

You can see how non-aggression works. Aggression only hurts us, and builds an ego. A me.





Tony