HIGH LEVELS of Radiation ☢ 81.4CPM in the Snow - St. Louis, Missouri

[Camilo]

http://youtu.be/QFIioKVz39g (15 min. video)

Published on Dec 14, 2013

Alert level is 100CPM. Today we are at 81.4CPM and 74.9CPM, plus a steady return on the CDV (civil defense) beta counter.

This means small particles of radioactive material are indeed coming down in the precipitation. Past tests show around 30CPM in the same spot on a nice day with no precipitation.

Several past snow storms have produced similar results.. from 80CPM to 110CPM !! Last year in 2012, did multiple tests of the snow showing alert levels were reached last year.

See ALL my previous video tests at this location ( and other areas around the United States) here:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=...
_______

Today's tests:

Test 1 of 2

Performed two 10 minute counts, using two inspector alert geiger counters , and one CDV counter -- 830am central time , 12/14/2013 , 1/4 inch from source.

Results :

1st count :

81.4 CPM (814 total) over the course of 10 minutes on one counter ... 74.9 CPM (749 total) on the second counter.

Alert level is normally at 100CPM (1000 total).

Thus we are reaching higher and higher compared to 2011 and 2012 levels... Normal "background" count returns approximaely 20-40CPM level.

2nd count coming in next video.

---
Links from around the world have been assembled to use here, plus two good charts to show exposure level limits:

http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/2012/...

special thanks to International Medcom for donating the 2nd Inspector Alert digital Geiger counter: here is the full post with their information ..

http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/2012/...

---

convert CPM to uS/v or mS/v here:


http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/2012/...

[ghostrider]

100 parts per minute is danger , over that is disaster ... people wonder why mass bird deaths happen , mass fish deaths , it's from fukushima ... stop using nuclear power now ... ever since our last snow ten days ago or so , five of my six employees are sick , having to take steroids and breathing treatments , and most are taking Z-packs ... they are still sick today ...

[observer]

Although everyone tends to point a finger at Fukushima, the most likely culprit is finely pulverized Depleted Uranium dust. When the seasonal dust storms in the Middle East reach the altitude of the Jet Streams, the entire northern hemisphere will eventually become uninhabitable.

Research Resource:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRG8nUDbVXU
The information contained within this video would indict any culpable official in a Nuremberg-like investigation. If you lack the patience to listen all the way through, begin listening around the 14 min. mark for the relevance of this video to the comment.

[Carmody]

When I spoke on depleted uranium use in the middle east, back in 2005, that is when I came under real fire.

It's not just fukushima, but the issue is now compounded by fukushima.

[Czarek]

these measurements are meaningless UNLESS we know exactly what isotopes are causing this reading and then when you know that, you have to account for the sensitivity of the instrument measuring it... For majority of N.America, 100 CPM means 5-6 times the normal background reading. A spec of natural uranium will read well over a 1000cpm.

[TargeT]

100 parts per minute is danger , over that is disaster ... people wonder why mass bird deaths happen , mass fish deaths , it's from fukushima ... stop using nuclear power now

says who?

First ask this:
what type of radiation is it, what sensor was used, when was it last calibrated.

Seriously, 100 CPM is nothing to worry about


. ever since our last snow ten days ago or so , five of my six employees are sick , having to take steroids and breathing treatments , and most are taking Z-packs ... they are still sick today ...

This is a perfect example of a Logical fallacy: correlation does not imply causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)

Critical thinking and logic are our strongest tools.. USE THEM!


Although everyone tends to point a finger at Fukushima, the most likely culprit is finely pulverized Depleted Uranium dust. When the seasonal dust storms in the Middle East reach the altitude of the Jet Streams, the entire northern hemisphere will eventually become uninhabitable.


DU dust? really?

I breathed the stuff in for a year, I drove by blown up tanks that had taken DU sabo rounds.... DU is very low radiation, no issues there at all. did you know that Depleted uranium is used for radiation SHIELDING (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium) ?
lots of disinfo out on this topic for sure...



these measurements are meaningless UNLESS we know exactly what isotopes are causing this reading and then when you know that, you have to account for the sensitivity of the instrument measuring it... For majority of N.America, 100 CPM means 5-6 times the normal background reading. A spec of natural uranium will read well over a 1000cpm.

Exactly.. I've been wearing a uranium ore pendant around my neck for over 6 months now... at these levels its beneficial not harmful, you should be happy the snow is 80 cpm.

[observer]

Well, Mr. Target,

Posting replies to comments simply to improve your post-count statistic doesn't impress me. Let's see 2,800+ comments since the end of June, 2011 makes somewhere around three comments a day for every day you've been a member - really?

You obviously didn't listen to the video I posted with my comment, for if you had, you would have realized, DU doesn't become a problem in the environment until it is pulverized into a find dust from ballistic impact.

One might also note the video is from one of the most courageous Veteran's Rights Activists, Joyce Riley. Joyce has been a tireless medical rights advocate for disabled veterans for well over the past decade.

I would be more inclined to believe what she is promoting than I would the agenda promoted by your former CO. Just keep sucking-up that DU dust and maybe we will have found a solution to Bright Garlic's "overpopulation problem (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65793-How-to-reduce-the-human-population)".

[TargeT]

Well, Mr. Target,

Posting replies to comments simply to improve your post-count statistic doesn't impress me. Let's see 2,800+ comments since the end of June, 2011 makes somewhere around three comments a day for every day you've been a member - really?

You obviously didn't listen to the video I posted with my comment, for if you had, you would have realized, DU doesn't become a problem in the environment until it is pulverized into a find dust from ballistic impact.

One might also note the video is from one of the most courageous Veteran's Rights Activists, Joyce Riley. Joyce has been a tireless medical rights advocate for disabled veterans for well over the past decade.

I would be more inclined to believe what she is promoting than I would the agenda promoted by your former CO. Just keep sucking-up that DU dust and maybe we will have found a solution to Bright Garlic's "overpopulation problem (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65793-How-to-reduce-the-human-population)".


what does my prolific writing habits have to do with anything?


I mentioned I "breathed in" DU dust for a year... and drove by tanks that had taken DU sabot rounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator), what I was getting at is I spent 14 months in southern Iraq when I was deployed there... so I'm one of those veterans that Joyce Riley is fighting for. We were told nothing about it, my "CO" didn't have an agenda; when I was in Iraq it was with the national guard, no full time military, no agendas.. not all is as you read it is.


Joyce may have a great little video put together, and since most people were never in that situation it's easy to fall for what is not in the viewers realm of experience; there was plenty of stuff going on over there that hurt guys (aside from the IED's) burning trash is the biggest respiratory issue IMO... we burned everything & usually right next to the living areas; how about all the vaccines that were given out, ever seen the anthrax shot series? its nuts!

DU radio-logically is not that big of an issue, you are right, the heavy metal aspect of it (when it is pulverized/flash melted into a dust) is just as toxic as any other heavy metal, but our bodies can handle it (if they aren't already weakened by burning trash, excessive vaccines & massive levels of stress).

I was simply speaking about the radiation from DU, since this topic is about radioactive snow, not the heavy metal aspect of DU (which is an issue of some scale).

if you are not able to see a counter view point to yours I think you may need to re-evaluate your standpoint on this issue, having an emotional tie that would cause the reactive "add homenon" style attack (another logical fallacy) seems to indicate that you have a "belief" that this is true, not an "understanding" if it was an understanding you could explain your case with out logical fallacy or reactive attacks.

[Sidney]

Lets face it, Between Fukushima and all the other numerous environmental disasters, it was only a matter of time before, the what goes up, must come down scenario came in to bite us in the arse. The radiation is not something to be ignored, regardless of how many people think its all fine and good. IMO, it is not all fine and good, and I feel we should not live in fear of this, but to take pre-caution, by using iodine, and it is not a bad idea to stock pile some for the future. If radiation becomes a world wide problem, iodine may become difficult to purchase.

[TargeT]

Lets face it, Between Fukushima and all the other numerous environmental disasters, it was only a matter of time before, the what goes up, must come down scenario came in to bite us in the arse. The radiation is not something to be ignored, regardless of how many people think its all fine and good. IMO, it is not all fine and good, and I feel we should not live in fear of this, but to take pre-caution, by using iodine, and it is not a bad idea to stock pile some for the future. If radiation becomes a world wide problem, iodine may become difficult to purchase.

Loading your system with iodine to prevent the absorption of radioactive iodine isn't a terrible idea (you'll take in iodine that is needed by your body, never a bad thing); but since there are not any good studies on thyroid cancer due to nuclear incidents (Chernobyl et al) and the radioactive iodine issue is a bit questionable as to it's actual effect (basically: more study needed); I find it funny that the little we do know goes something like this:

Radioactive iodine damages/mutates cells due to its beta decay, a little bit of it can increase cancer risk (I still question this statement personally) a lot of it just kills off cells, which the body can recover from.

so if you are going to be exposed, be exposed to a lot! (haha)

Anyway, even the thyroid issue is almost marginal, the real danger is to the workers close to the site, if any have to go into the reaction chamber etc.. or get exposed to actually harmful levels of radiation (which definitely exist).

so in summary: iodine isn't the silver bullet to radiation, in fact radioactive iodine is only 3% of fissile by product.

[Carmody]

Lets talk about Depleted uranium..and the Iraq City of Fallujah. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/25/fallujah-iraq-health-crisis-silence)

To add, they knew ahead of time. The entire high command of the USA military knew ahead of time, what would happen if they used Depleted Uranium in the Middle East.

Many a study, many a result had come in and was well completed and understood long before, and all involved were informed.


Thus, we're looking at a form of purposeful directed genocide and/or a blood feud, going way back. We're talking about a scorched earth policy and act, that was designed to be in permanence. Not just for the moment but to be scorched earth forever.

Due to these FACTS, that are on the record, we have to look at Fukushima a bit differently.

Accident? Well, prior acts and situations mean that Fukushima is to be looked at with a detective's eye, looking for evidence of crime, evidence of ulterior motive.

Well, when we look at how it is being handled, over at Fukushima, and the situation prior to when it happened, we see a pattern of a hidden hand.

[Calz]

Interesting thread.

I always try keeping an open mind and for whatever it is worth I thought enough about the thread on Hormesis by previous mod Dawn (which is in line with what Target refers to) to wear a low level pendant:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53597-Hormesis-Healing-Yourself-with-Low-Dose-Radiation&highlight=radiation


That said I expect we should always consider things in moderation vs excess with radiation as with most everything else.


My question to Carmody has this event gone beyond repair from "Brown's Gas" that you have mentioned before???


I found this last night and I have not vetted it for confirmation ... take it for what it is worth:

___________________


51 Sailors from USS Ronald Reagan Suffering Thyroid Cancer, Leukemia, Brain Tumors After Participating in Fukushima Nuclear Rescue Efforts

Thursday, 12 December 2013 20:00

December 12, 2013 -- (TRN http://www.TurnerRadioNetwork.com ) -- Crew members in their mid-20's from the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan are coming down with all sorts of radiation-related illnesses after being deployed less than 3 years ago to assist with earthquake rescue operations off the coast of Japan in 2011. It looks as though the onboard desalinization systems that take salt out of seawater to make it drinkable, were taking-in radioactive water from the ocean for the crew to drink, cook with and bath-in, before anyone realized there was a massive radiation spill into the ocean.

Charles Bonner, attorney representing sailors from the USS Ronald Reagan said "the crew members were not only going to the rescue by jumping into the water and rescuing people out of the water, but they were drinking desalinated sea water, bathing in it, until finally the captain of the USS Ronald Reagan alarmed people that they were encountering high levels of radiation."


http://img.junshi.com/upload/picture/2013/03/2qf9RQC.jpg


Bonner says that as a result of this exposure, the 51 sailors have come down with a host of medical problems, "They have testicular cancer, they have thyroid cancers, they have leukemias, they have rectal and gynecological bleeding, a host of problems that they did not have before ... people are going blind, pilots who had perfect eyesight but now have tumors on the brain. And it’s only been 3 years since they went in." Bonner pointed out that these service men and women are young people, ages 21, 22, 23 years old and no one in their family had ever suffered any of these kinds of illnesses before.



At present, 51 sailors from the USS Ronald Reagan are named as Plaintiffs in a lawsuit against the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) and Bonner says he anticipates adding twenty additional Sailors soon, bringing the total to 70 to 75 because "The Japanese government is in a major conspiracy with TEPCO to hide and conceal the true facts."



In an utterly shocking admission at a meeting of the Japan Press Club on December 12, 2013, the former Prime Minister of Japan, Naoto Kan, who was in-office when the Fukushima disaster took place, told assembled journalists "[People think it was March 12th but] the first meltdown occurred 5 hours after the earthquake." This means that the government of Japan KNEW there was horrific radiation being released, but did not tell the U.S. Navy which had deployed the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan to assist with rescue efforts. Our story covering this new aspect of the Fukushima incident is available HERE.



According to "Stars and Stripes" one Plaintiff in the lawsuit is Petty Officer 3rd Class Daniel Hair. When the earthquake struck, Hair and his Reagan shipmates were en route to Korea. They immediately turned around and steamed to the affected area. “There were people in distress,” he said. “This is what we signed up for.”



The Reagan passed through debris as far as the eye could see: wood, refrigerators, car tires, roofs of houses with people riding on them. Hair was told they were five to 10 miles off the coast from Fukushima, which had been damaged by a massive tsunami spawned by the quake.



Sailors were drinking desalinated seawater and bathing in it until the ship’s leadership came over the public address system and told them to stop because it was contaminated, Hair said. They were told the ventilation system was contaminated, and he claims he was pressured into signing a form that said he had been given an iodine pill even though none had been provided. As a low-ranking sailor, he believed he had no choice.



The Navy has acknowledged that the Reagan passed through a plume of radiation but declined to comment on the details in Hair’s story.



Shortly after the disaster, Senior Chief Mike Sebourn was sent from his home base, Naval Air Facility Atsugi, to Misawa Air Base, 200 miles from the faltering power plant. As a designated radiation decontamination officer, he dealt with aircraft and personnel that had flown into the area.



Sebourn, with only two days of training, was tasked with testing seven points on an aircraft’s skin for radiation. He and others crawled all over the crafts for months, he said, with only gloves for protection. At one point, he said, they took the radiator out of one aircraft and tested it. The radiation was four times greater than what should have required them to wear a suit and respirator, he said.



The level of radiation “was incredibly dangerous,” Sebourn said. “Navy aviation had never dealt with radiation before. Nobody knew what to do. Nobody knew what was safe. It was a nightmare.”



Sebourn said he suffered nose bleeds, headaches and nausea in the immediate aftermath — symptoms consistent with radiation poisoning. Months later, he felt weak in his right arm; excruciating pain followed. He said the command fitness leader in charge of physical training at Atsugi watched as his arm atrophied to about half its size.



“I have issues that can’t be explained,” Sebourn said. “It just seems like I am deteriorating.”



Sebourn said he went to doctors more than a dozen times, but no one knew what had caused the former personal trainer to lose 70 percent of the strength in the right side of his body. He retired after 17 years in Japan.



Sebourn is alarmed that the word “radiation” doesn’t appear anywhere in his service record, even though that was his job and he was exposed to it. He believed troops exposed would be red-flagged in their service records and be tracked for medical problems.



According to "The Huffington Post" another Plaintiff in the lawsuit is former Navy Quartermaster Maurice Enis.



Enis says it was more than a month after arriving off the coast of Japan -- and circling at distances of one to 10 miles from the crippled reactors -- when sailors aboard the carrier got word that a nuclear plant had been affected. "Even then, it was rumors," he said. And it wasn't until the USS Ronald Reagan had left Japan and sailors were scrubbing down the ship that they were offered radiation protection. Enis said the enlisted sailors were never offered any iodine. He said he later learned the "higher ups" -- officers and pilots -- had received the tablets to protect their thyroids from radiation damage.



"They had us sign off that we were medically fine, had no sickness, and that we couldn't sue the U.S. government," Enis told The Huffington Post, recalling widespread anger among the sailors who saw it as "B.S." but who also felt they had little choice.



VIDEOS FROM USS RONALD REAGAN

The first video below is when the Captain tells the crew they have moved the ship to fresher water and radiation is now down to acceptable levels, so they can begin using the water again! The second is what the Captain told the crew when the ship WAS HEADING BACK INTO the radiation!

gFyAg_poUF8

QHuz4kUZ_zA

(EDITOR'S NOTE: Despite the facts above, the mass-media in the U.S. has said nothing about this story. One more example of how the Turner Radio Network "provides facts the mass-media won't.")


http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/99-pat

[observer]

[....snip]
what does my prolific writing habits have to do with anything?

I mentioned your "prolific writing habits", Target, because throughout the forum you have numerous comments in support of low doses of radiation as some sort of good thing.

With the jury still out on the benefits of such ideas, and in light of how that even relates to the inhalation of finely pulverized Depleted Uranium Dust, it would seem to me your comments are reckless at the least. [With regard to the military's use of Depleted Uranium, these comments defy all canons of human decency, and international law.]

Additionally, I read your "Really?' comment, back at me, as some sort of "Saturday Night Live - style" snipe on the presentation of Depleted Uranium as a health hazard, so I sniped you right back - tit for tat.

If you wish to characterize the way I responded to your sniping reply as an ad hominem attack on your character, than I suppose you are free to feel that way.

You obviously didn't listen to the Joyce Riley video I offered in my comment #3 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66505-HIGH-LEVELS-of-Radiation-----81.4CPM-in-the-Snow-St.-Louis-Missouri&p=772479&viewfull=1#post772479) , for if you had, you would have realized Joyce covered all the pollution from burning trash, burning munitions dumps, vaccines etc. which you went on to cite as an alternative reason veterans were sick.

You have chosen to minimize the work of Joyce Riley, without even listening to her video. At least that's how it appears to me.

It was for those reasons that I said what I did in my reply #7 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66505-HIGH-LEVELS-of-Radiation-----81.4CPM-in-the-Snow-St.-Louis-Missouri&p=772558&viewfull=1#post772558).

As long as there are members who are willing to reject the concept of health hazards associated to the military use of Depleted Uranium, I'm sticking to what I said in reply to you.

Sorry if that offends you....

Research Resources:

Depleted Uranium, The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War -
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_uranium23.htm

UN Sub-Commission resolution 1996/16 -
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0811fcbd0b9f6bd58025667300306dea/887c730868a70a758025665700548a00

[TargeT]

a Side note: USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) is a Nimitz-class nuclear-powered air craft carrier. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ronald_Reagan_(CVN-76)) that has been in operation since 2001.



I found this last night and I have not vetted it for confirmation ... take it for what it is worth:


Here's some quasi corroboration to the story you found:


March 14, 2011, 6: 45 PM
Radiation detected on U.S. warship near Japan
TOKYO - The U.S. Seventh Fleet said Monday it had moved its ships and aircraft away from a quake-stricken Japanese nuclear power plant after discovering low-level radioactive contamination.

CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reports that there were two separate radiation exposures on the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan. The first was to air crews who were swabbed upon returning from search and rescue (SAR) missions, 17 of whom were found to have received the equivalent of a month's radiation and had to be decontaminated.
The second exposure occurred when the carrier's shipboard alarms went off. Since the Reagan is nuclear-powered, it has sensors to detect radioactivity, said Martin, and those went off as soon as the radiation levels went above the naturally-occurring background.

The fleet said that the radiation was from a plume of smoke and steam released from the crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant, where there have been two hydrogen explosions since Friday's devastating earthquake and tsunami.

The aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan was about 100 miles offshore when its instruments detected the radiation. The fleet said the dose of radiation was about the same as one month's normal exposure to natural background radiation in the environment, and no one was exposed to levels that would have made them sick, reports CBS News correspondent Celia Hatton.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/radiation-detected-on-us-warship-near-japan/

and this:


Photo: A super-size scrub
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/files/2011/03/POD-032311-USSRonaldReagan.jpg
Air operations aboard the USS Ronald Reagan were temporarily halted today so more than 300 crew members could clean the ship of potential contamination from a radioactive plume off the coast of Japan on March 13. The mast-to-deck scrubdown was conducted mainly using high-pressure sprayers, brooms and seawater.

The aircraft carrier was 100 miles from the Fukushima nuclear power plant when it encountered the low-level radiation plume emitted by the plant. The radiation levels were determined to be low enough to continue humanitarian operations aboard the ship, including serving as a floating refueling station for the Japan Self-Defense Force in Operation Tomodachi (Operation Friendship).

In case you were wondering how they got all those suds cleaned up, the flight deck has an awesome sprinkler system.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/photo-a-super-size-scrub/8143/


BUT STILL.. with no other mention of people with symptoms its hard to just read the turner piece and take it as fact; I'd definitely have to see more; even being able to corrilate the cancer with the time served on the ships would be difficult, everyone that was on that ship back in 2011 is very likely transferred off already and scattered to the wind, from what I read no one got any special marking in their medical record so there's not even a "database" that could be scowered to collect this information.

(basically: how did someone come up with the 51 number in a way that no one else has, since these people are very likely no longer on the ship, not together anymore, and there was no medical notes entered into their records after serving at the ***. site?)

I'd say the sailors on the USS R. were in a very bad location since they were in the direct plum of the hydrogen blasts that happened.

[Calz]

Here is video testimony (allegedly) from one of the sick sailors. Not a yougoob ... take the link if interested.

_________________


US Sailors Sick from Fukushima?

Posted 1 day ago by EighthCard

WASHINGTON — A Utah sailor who served on board the USS Ronald Reagan, the first ship to respond to the 2011 earthquake and tsunami at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant in Japan, is sick. Now Lt. j.g. Steve Simmons, with the U.S. Navy, wants answers, accountability and a treatment plan. But the Department of Defense says its expert testing does not substantiate the radiation sickness. Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?sid=26440227 -- Additional information can also be found at http://enenews.com/another-20-navy-sailors-uss-ronald-reagan-crew-with-thyroid-cancer-leukemia-brain-tumors-bleeding-blindness-children-becoming-sick-after-responding-to-311-crisis-japan-govt-and-tepc

http://www.military.com/video/forces/navy/us-sailors-sick-from-fukushima/2940235133001/

[TargeT]

[....snip]
what does my prolific writing habits have to do with anything?

I mentioned your "prolific writing habits", Target, because throughout the forum you have numerous comments in support of low doses of radiation as some sort of good thing.

With the jury still out on the benefits of such ideas, and in light of how that even relates to the inhalation of finely pulverized Depleted Uranium Dust, it would seem to me your comments are reckless at the least. [With regard to the military's use of Depleted Uranium, these comments defy all canons of human decency, and international law.]

Since there are no studies, simply correlative guessing about the use of DU I'm not quite sure how it is against international law to shoot metal at people, I mean it should be, don't get me wrong here...However, the minimal amount of dust produced via spalding is further reduced as it also usually catches fire since depleted uranium is pyrophoric, meaning it can spontaneously burst into flame when finely powdered/pulverized and then exposed to air, now if you were alive to breath that in, or the particulates from the fire I'd say you'd be in a bad situation.. but that's not usually the case.



Additionally, I read your "Really?' comment, back at me, as some sort of "Saturday Night Live - style" snipe on the presentation of Depleted Uranium as a health hazard, so I sniped you right back - tit for tat.

it was more of a question, as in, what little dust there is making its way from the middle east to here and causing increased radiation in snow (when it could be SO MANY other causes), really?

How does that quote go, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind? tit for that....



If you wish to characterize the way I responded to your sniping reply as an ad hominem attack on your character, than I suppose you are free to feel that way.

it met the definition of the logical fallacy Ad Hominem (to the man) you did not start by addressing my message, you started by verbally poking at me (I'd guess in an attempt to discredit my post, since it was just to "increase my post count", I didn't follow the line too closely so I'm not sure of your actual intent there.).



You obviously didn't listen to the Joyce Riley video I offered in my comment #3 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66505-HIGH-LEVELS-of-Radiation-----81.4CPM-in-the-Snow-St.-Louis-Missouri&p=772479&viewfull=1#post772479) , for if you had, you would have realized Joyce covered all the pollution from burning trash, burning munitions dumps, vaccines etc. which you went on to cite as an alternative reason veterans were sick.

You have chosen to minimize the work of Joyce Riley, without even listening to her video. At least that's how it appears to me.

I didn't reference them as alternates, more as "main" sources, I think those non-sensational sources are vastly more important than the eye catching "DU" that is bandied about.. DU is distracting from the real issues, a Red haring really (which is another logical fallacy BTW..) Also, since I spent 14 months on one deployment in Iraq, and another 11 in the region on a separate deployment; I don't really think I need to listen to some lady that wasn't even there, who didn't have IED's set off in her direction and who wasn't lucky enough to be among those who returned; she can make a cute little video about this stuff, I experienced it. I helped draft the memo's for the fire pit exposure & I still keep in touch with the guys who made it back with me.



Here is video testimony (allegedly) from one of the sick sailors. Not a yougoob ... take the link if interested.


Well my trust in the military is pretty good, I trust they'd do anything they can to cover up a bad decision and save face; I trust they'd screw over sailors like the guy in that video so some LTC can have a good OER (basically a performance review)... at least my pessimistic side thinks that way.

though color my unconvinced, it seems like the docs at walter reed wouldn't be complaisant in any type of cover up as well and we should be fairly good at telling radiation sickness from other issues (if we aren't then every study about radiation is in question, both for and against).

While this is interesting, I think it's a bit off topic for a "radioactive snow" thread, might deserve its own, or inclusion in one of the fukushima threads.

[observer]

From this link:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_uranium23.htm

"ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW

Four reasons why using depleted uranium weapons violates the UN Convention on Human Rights:
• LEGALITY TEST FOR WEAPONS UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW
• TEMPORAL TEST – Weapons must not continue to act after the battle is over
• ENVIRONMENTAL TEST – Weapons must not be unduly harmful to the environment
• TERRITORIAL TEST – Weapons must not act off of the battlefield
• HUMANENESS TEST – Weapons must not kill or wound inhumanly

International Human Rights and humanitarian lawyer, Karen Parker, determined that depleted uranium weaponry fails the four tests for legal weapons under international law, and that it is also illegal under the definition of a ‘poison’ weapon.

Through Karen Parker’s continued efforts, a sub-commission of the UN Human Rights Commission determined in 1996 that depleted uranium is a weapon of mass destruction that should not be used:

RESOLUTION 1996/16 ON STOPPING THE USE OF DEPLETED URANIUM - DU
The military use of DU violates current international humanitarian law, including the principle that there is no unlimited right to choose the means and methods of warfare (Art. 22 Hague Convention VI (HCIV); Art. 35 of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva (GP1); the ban on causing unnecessary suffering and superfluous injury (Art. 23 §le HCIV; Art. 35 §2 GP1), indiscriminate warfare (Art. 51 §4c and 5b GP1) as well as the use of poison or poisoned weapons.

The deployment and use of DU violate the principles of international environmental and human rights protection. They contradict the right to life established by the Resolution 1996/16 of the UN Subcommittee on Human Rights."

The above link was attached to comment #13. Additionally the link to the UN Resolution 1996/16 was made a part of that #13 comment as well.

Had you looked at either of those links, you would have understood, without asking, "I'm not quite sure how it is against international law to shoot metal at people".

The fact of the matter, after 1996 any country using DU weapons is breaking international law, a crime against humanity for which the former administration was indicted in international court, here:

INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR AFGHANISTAN AT TOKYO -
http://www.ratical.org/radiation/DU/ICTforAatT.html

Making any individual culpable in any military operation using DU weapons a war criminal - addressed just as a wake-up call for anyone else involved.

Since you are debating me based entirely on your personal opinion, and are refusing to review the trail of evidence I have presented, it is apparent (to me), continuing this discussion with you is a waste of my precious time.

So with that, I will agree to disagree, and exit the discussion....

[TargeT]

I've seen the ICT ruling, it's justified in many areas IMO...


TEMPORAL TEST – Weapons must not continue to act after the battle is over
They don't, no more than bomb shrapnel does

ENVIRONMENTAL TEST – Weapons must not be unduly harmful to the environment
"unduly" is pretty damn vauge.. again, DU is no worse than bomb fragments, or tank treads really

TERRITORIAL TEST – Weapons must not act off of the battlefield
again, they dont

HUMANENESS TEST – Weapons must not kill or wound inhumanly
now this one I could see a possible case for, but how do you NOT kill inhumanly? IMO the 5.56 is inhumane, it's designed to wound..


you see, you are functioning off the belief that DU is some how incredibly bad for you, it's just a dense heavy metal with slightly above normal radiation (compared to say, granite counter tops, or smoke detectors, both of which are radioactive); that's really it, and DU "dust" (what little there is) it's no worse for you than say, falling and scraping your knee in an area naturally rich in uranium or thorium (lots of areas have thorium).

Here's how I see it:

How many MILLIONS of troops have cycled through these theaters (remember, we have been there since 1991, 23 years now)? I bet the number is close to 10 million (sure a lot were multiple visits from the same individual, but that raises their chance of "exposure to DU" a LOT wouldn't you say?) There would be 100,000's of cases reported if DU was as bad as some say it is, we would have a clear idea of what it "does" and what the symptoms are.

the numbers don't add up, the logic isn't there. Every service member who gets sick isn't due to some boogy man issue out there, we live unhealthy lives, get massive levels of stress and many other issues & when we are off duty we punish our bodies with substances and more stress to try and forget the other stress...

I guess looking at this and understanding from an out side perspective is just really hard to do. Unless you were deployed, you just can't really understand what it's like (and not all deployments are the same, my two combat tours were vastly different from each other).

I drove by tanks that had been blown RIGHT inside the city limits of Basrah many many times, they probably had been siting there for 15+ years, the families lived a very poor life but there wasn't any inhumane "after" effects, our medics treated ANYONE that came to the gate; we saw no babies with 3 legs etc.. the living conditions are so poor there (probably due to us bombing the heck out of their infrastructure) that drinking water is a scarce commodity (we gave away pallets of bottled water every day).

I guess it comes down to this, if it was as bad as its said it is, after Two years over there I should have seen something, heard radio traffic of something happening.. saw some clue of what you speak of....

DU rounds are nasty, because they penetrate armor like butter and instantly kill everyone inside the vehicle, that's about where it ends, isn't that enough?

If I'm being illogical here please let me know. I've thought this through since I am directly effected by it.

I think the DU topic detracts from more important issues like... Wars of aggression; how about we cover that one first?

[Harley]

This was/is more than likely the culprit:

St. Louis Prepares For Radiation Emergency (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85921-St.-Louis-Prepares-For-Radiation-Emergency&p=1008468#post1008468)

[Octavusprime]

TargeT

Is it possible that the effects of DU exposure may lie dormant for years/decades? Dormant may not be the correct word but basically we may not see how bad the effects were for years to come...

This reminds me of agent orange. Vietnam vets are still suffering and encountering new health problems as they age and the war ended 40 years ago.