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Abhaya
4th January 2014, 23:30
Wanted to take a moment to apologize. Some of you may be aware of my attempts to talk about vegetarianism on this forum. It is a subject I am passionate about. And something that plays a huge factor in the state of the world today. As well as being a possible solution to many problems we face today. However I find my self at a loss on how to present the issue. Regardless I am now sure that the methods I have choose in the past are inappropriate and ineffective. Despite my honest attempts to try not to come off as judgmental. I find I have caused extreme anger in others. And I have decided the error lies with me. Because no matter who is right or wrong in the argument, if someone is eliciting violent responses from people then they are probably doing it wrong, and unfit to be fronting the debate. So I apologize to all for conduct unbefitting this forum. While there are others who have been voicing the same cause as me on some of the threads, I feel I have been the most confronting where they have been patient and civil. So I will be making an honest attempt to address my behavior on this issue. I do still feel it is an important issue and if any one has any ideas on how we can better bring the issue forward I would love to hear your ideas.

Your forum friend
Abhaya

I will just leave this baby elk going nuts in a puddle here.

BCKfYqjnMoY

Milneman
4th January 2014, 23:52
In other forums, when things got absolutely gongshow, I found recipes always helped. :) Food brings people together. When the going get tough, the tough get granola. :)

Robin
5th January 2014, 00:04
I feel you, Abhaya. It is a touchy subject that people get offended when they are presented with a compelling case that does not validate their beliefs. But I also understand both sides of the the debate.

I'm thinking about starting a new thread that will bring it to further light...I'll PM you later. :)

Sunny-side-up
5th January 2014, 00:06
Hello Abhaya Peace and Love.

Back when I first woke and was living a far more harmonious/ alternate life style I was a happy vegan.
At the moment I limit myself to include Fish and Birds in my diet :(
If I think to much about the subject I actually start felling bad about eating plants 0.o

I have great problems seeing Humans as advanced and or civilised when we actually still kill and eat creatures, life forms.
So for now I admit I am weak and ask the Earth and it's creatures including my-higher-self for forgiveness.

This material realm is so painful to me at times
But when I get myself into a better way of Life condition/situation I'll be vegan again.

Ellisa
5th January 2014, 00:53
Thank you for the lovely elk! I eat vegetarian food, but also eat some meat as I too, like the elk, am an animal. It is a herbivore, I am an omnivore. My adorable, lazy, fluffy cat is not only an obligatory carnivore (cannot survive healthily without meat) but he is also a fierce predator. We living creatures are what we are. I eat less meat than I used to, and I know the claims that it is possible to live on fruits and vegetables only, but usually we humans do live best on as varied a diet as possible.

Like many things where opinions can be deeply held, and offence can spring from just a mention of a differing opinion, sometimes it is best to suggest sensitively and allow for continuing difference of opinion. Recipes are indeed often a good way to start. A lot of people honestly do not know that vegetarian food can be tasty and satisfying as well as healthy!

ginnyk
5th January 2014, 01:03
Hello Abhaya.

May I submit this in all loving kindness. Maybe you are finding resistance on this forum because it is like preaching to the choir. I believe that by now most of us have heard all the pros and cons many times and have long ago made the decisions that fit our hearts and lifestyles. It is perfectly OK to be passionate in our beliefs, but people see things from different perspectives according to locale and customs of previous generations. By now, we have enough consciousness to know if we are doing right or wrong, and have the power within ourselves to make changes when that inner voice tells us it is time for that change.

Direct confrontation on such a visceral subject is about as successful as herding cats. Perhaps "here kitty, kitty" with some delicious recipies as Milneman suggested would help.

Love, Gin

MariaDine
5th January 2014, 01:06
I'm vegan. I take vitamins, iron etc, because I do lots of exercise. :whoo:
But it's not for everybody.
When one is very young, it's easier if family or friends are vegan too. ;)

I went vegan, when I had to kill a chicken ....:behindsofa:

chancy
5th January 2014, 02:11
Hello Everyone:
I am seeing to much apolegetic sentiment! What's wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan or a meat eater? I grew up and live in an area where meat is in and so are great veggies, fruits and anything else that is good for you. (most things should be eaten in moderation of course since I think we all know that? )
Since I confess I haven't read every thread on vegetarianism here on avalon I am speaking from the hip....
A few years ago I went to a big tradefair which was for vegetarians. ( we were invited and not told what the tradefair consisted of ) I am not vegetarian but definitely don't have a problem with anyone that wants to practice it.
Back to the tradefair....when my family went in to set up our exibit everyone wanted our product and that was excellent! I couldn't help notice and my family kept asking why does everyone look so frail and pale? Since our family is not vegetarian we didn't fit into the tradefair except to be stared at and asked constantly what we practiced? I kept saying we live on a farm and eat healthy but that was never enough so I finally had to tell everyone we ate beef, pork and lamb and pretty much any other meats and fish there was.
We had a great time because we were definitely different in the tradefair but met lots of great people who were brought up in vegetarianism. We all learned from each other and completely respected each others eating practices.
My point is there is NO need to apologize as long as you are not getting in someone elses face.
just sayin....
chancy

Abhaya
5th January 2014, 03:20
Thanks for the positive response guys. I like the recipe idea. And perhaps just going the route of putting up information in regards to how to start being vegetarian for those who are considering trying it. Diets plans and testimonials to encourage them. I guess it makes a lot of since to try to focus on those who are already thinking about it. Rather then stirring the pot amongst those who are not interested in the life style and having arguments where both sides are really wasting their breath.

Arak
5th January 2014, 09:53
I have been mostly vegetarian now for 2 years. I dont eat any meat, but I eat fish, eggs and dairy products. I feel 'bit bad because I am eating fish, but then again, I would eat meat if there would be no alternatives. But because _I can_ I have decided to speed up my spiritual evolution as much as possible and sure avoiding to eat animals is one way. (As is absolutism which I have chosen too.)

I am not that passionate about the issue, as I understand that most people are not ready to face the facts or evolve, but I do remember to tell them about the benefits of vegetarism. Here in Finland the newest nutritional advice is that 200 grams of meat per week would be enough. It is not a suprise that it has not gotten that much attention because off the food industry.

So my advice is that use subtle hints, quote scientific researches and try not to preach - people hate that. :)

learninglight
5th January 2014, 12:34
I don't call myself anything, i just say 'I don't eat meat'.
When asked why i usually answer ' Because I do not want to', then the conversation goes where it goes. i don't push what i do or do not do. This has helped my family and friends think about what they eat, even if it is only when they are with me, they rarely will eat meat in my presence.
My daughter rarely eats meat now, and when she does it's mainly organic chicken, i know to you this is still wrong in her mind set, but, to go from a full meat diet, to a chicken now and again to me is a big move in the right direction.

This is a very emotive subject, you will open more eyes and minds if you are gentle with them, don't shove what is right or wrong at others, you will lose their interest before you can say 'Old Mc,Donald had a farm, and on that farm he had a pig'
Good luck, will be watching for the new thread :)

sharon

buckminster fuller
5th January 2014, 12:47
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Agape
5th January 2014, 15:02
In my best opinion , the whole topic has very little to do with what people tend to make it , a debate about 'dieting' but it's all about loving kindness and compassion.

I was never particularly fond of eating meat but as a kid I had to , since it was part of our 'European diet' . Being vegetarian was and still is considered an 'excess' in many circles here , and if you come to doctors here and mention you don't eat meat, they automatically start questioning you and blaming all your problems just on that .

I came to Shivananda Ashram in Rishikesh as 19 year old, on my journey to search for truth and pathway to Himalayas , found great teachers there , not only by their learning but also by their kind and caring approach .
I was newcomer to India that time , and young student with few pennies in my pocket . Never was I asked for money , for food and tutoring and what made us all happy together was the inner fire and quest for truth .
It was perfectly understandable that as noble and sovereign beings we do not take life of other creatures . Do not kill. Do not steal . Do not lie .
It is much much easier to learn by example than by words and statements .

I'm sure that the European culture where I was born claimed very similar values but seldom followed them .

And there, at the footsteps of Himalayas , for the first time in my life I felt loved , cared for from bottom of hearts and like a free being .

So to be honest ... and even though I travelled a lot later in my life and was eager to follow Buddhist teachings particularly for my love of meditation and inner work ,
I would not touch meat in any form for more than 17 years ,
and I witnessed miracles happening for that . One of them was when the whole Namgyal monastery in Dharamsala kitchen was turned vegetarian , the 2nd year after I came and since .
I take it was very wise decision because you really don't need lots of aggression and disturbed minds when you are monk and want to study and meditate on compassion.

However, and this is the point I wanted to make at start ... it's really the love and compassion in your 'soup' being important than everything else .

People who live in cold climates with little vegetation would once die off if they did not eat meat . When you have to save life and have no other choice than to kill a chicken , it's what you should do .

There are no laws from outside that justify or order your behaviour . The important truth comes from inside and it's about love , and compassion.


This has very little to do with overindulgence in food of whatever sort .. and wasting your body .. wasting lives .. wasting nature ... letting others starve . Not thinking for anyone than yourself alone .


:angel:

bogeyman
5th January 2014, 15:14
Why do you need to apologize? If you wish to discuss the matter then fine.

Abhaya
5th January 2014, 15:57
Why do you need to apologize? If you wish to discuss the matter then fine.

If u saw how some of my other threads went you'd understand. :p

But yeah I do wish to discuss just wanted some advice on the best way to do so. Good stuff so far!

chocolate
5th January 2014, 17:00
Abhaya,
When you say 'discussion' that implies you are trying to find answers, too. Stay open for them when they appear, don't try to always have the same answers that would make you feel good inside. Growth is sometimes connected to getting outside your comfort zone.
If you want a dialogue, you have to accept that everyone has an opinion and respect that opinion, even if it doesn't coincide with what you want to convey. We are different, even though in a broader frame the same, and each of us has that flame inside that keeps us going. If you always remember that than you will not have reasons to apologize. Respect that the others have the right and freedom to be what they have chosen to be. Everything else will take its place.

Heartsong
5th January 2014, 17:09
Your apology is insightful and appreciated although not really necessary. I am one who needs educating. I'm not vegetarian and think it's fine if others are.

My problem comes when preparing a meal when some are vegan, some are vegetarian, some are gluten free, some are corn free, some are lactose intolerant, some will eat organic only, some no GMO, some eat chicken and not fish, some eat fish and not chicken and so on.....how do you prepare a meal with all those restrictions? Granted that not all those restrictions occur at the same dinner, but it's harder and harder to have people over.

chocolate
5th January 2014, 17:11
I don't think not eating meat is the answer to anything. Balance and harmony are some of the answers, even if that means killing animals to live.

I have been a vegetarian for more than 20 years, but I never felt the need to advocate the idea to anyone, I only had to survive everyone's need to tell me I was wrong in avoiding meat. [I have a physical problems when I eat meat, which later affects also the way I feel, but I am certain meat and animal products are essential for the human body.]

grannyfranny100
5th January 2014, 17:40
I have never understood why some vegetarians are so militant. This planet is alive with people of differing races, differing cultures, differing adaptations to their micro climate and food sources as well as differing DNA.

Just because you have found something that works for you does not mean it is right for everyone. That kind of mindset does not respect the diversity that we must learn to appreciate if we are to survive as a species, live together peacefully and eventually explore other worlds.

As others have suggested, soften your militancy by sharing some recipes that might expand veggie consumption.

Snowflower
5th January 2014, 18:37
You probably would reject the advice I'd offer which is to not believe it with are so much unconditional absolute fervor. You could be wrong. I know, I know - you know without a single molecule of doubt that you are NOT wrong. But...you could be. Because you aren't the point of singularity in the Universe, you could be wrong. See? It is upsetting for me to suggest the possibility of you being wrong. That's the problem in reverse.

I know without a molecule of doubt (but I could be wrong) that I need to eat meat to find health. I tried the veggie route more than a dozen times and failed each and every time - with strong advice, good nutrition, and sound practices. But it failed MY body. Not yours, not someone else's. Mine.

I wouldn't have understood the concept that KNOWING without a molecule of doubt that I AM NOT WRONG really upsets other people who have a different value of rightness or wrongness, if it hadn't been for religious principles. For 35 years I knew without a SHRED of doubt that the Baha'i Faith was the absolute truth - so little molecule of doubt that it was impossible for me to engage in actual conversation with others who did NOT know that. I used to think it was conversation, but it wasn't. It was me proselytizing them. I didn't really LISTEN to them. I waited for them to finish talking so I could TEACH them. And all that time, I was busy offending others without ever knowing it. The only reason I learned the lesson I'm currently living with (could be others in future), was because I discovered for myself that I MIGHT be wrong. And that's when I learned how to actually talk to others.

So - if you can possibly take in the idea that you might be wrong - maybe you would stop offending?

GreenGuy
5th January 2014, 18:45
It was perfectly understandable that as noble and sovereign beings we do not take life of other creatures . Do not kill. Do not steal . Do not lie .

I admit I eat some meat, and although I eat far less than in the past, I have no plans to stop. I agree that the way we raise and slaughter livestock is all wrong. I agree with most of the ethical reasons for choosing not to eat meat. But it can't rest on ethical grounds alone, because plants are also sentient beings, and they also respond to being uprooted and mutilated. Our circle of life on this planet exists to recycle resources through a vast living chain of beings of all types. We are part of that since our animal bodies require sustenance like everything else. So to me, seeking harmony rather than dogma is the goal. Rather than indulge in self-hatred because of where I happen to sit in the food chain, I prefer to apply mindfulness. I raise a lot of my own vegetables and herbs, but living in the city I have to buy meat. So I eat less and less over time, and try to eat a mostly-vegetable diet. But if I buy a package of hot dogs, I'm not going to hate myself in the morning.

DeDukshyn
5th January 2014, 22:24
Your apology is insightful and appreciated although not really necessary. I am one who needs educating. I'm not vegetarian and think it's fine if others are.

My problem comes when preparing a meal when some are vegan, some are vegetarian, some are gluten free, some are corn free, some are lactose intolerant, some will eat organic only, some no GMO, some eat chicken and not fish, some eat fish and not chicken and so on.....how do you prepare a meal with all those restrictions? Granted that not all those restrictions occur at the same dinner, but it's harder and harder to have people over.

I believe in this case the apology is symbolic, it is a statement, after reflection. Abhaya, from what I have seen, already made many changes in regards to the way he addresses the topic with others; most have not seen this, but since I was one who used to really get into with him (even though I actually supported his stance - maybe that "preaching to the choir" effect someone else mentioned), so this statement has more than one utilization, from where I am seeing.

First to solidify the change he wants to see in his communication styles with a physical anchor, and second, to let people know, who may be holding a grudges against him, that he is recognizing and addressing this. Absolutely nothing wrong with this as I am sure Abhaya just wants to be effective in our communications -- we all do and all have vast room to grow in the area of communication - it is rare when we take these challenges to ourselves.

So I can't say anything less than I am impressed with the OP and this thread, and the effect it has had and will continue to have. Now you have our attention Abhaya, well done. My 2 cents :) :)

christian
5th January 2014, 22:53
I think with vegetarianism it's just like with any other personal preference, be it political, sexual, musical, or whatever. If you want to convince others that yours is the best, you will most probably fail. If you found something you like, enjoy it, and by all means express that joy. It may be contagious. But please, always respect that others may continue to stick to their preference.

When I witness the violent attitude that some vegans or vegetarians have towards meat-eaters, I want to ask them who is worse, meat-eaters or people who violently hate meat-eaters, a group that makes up several billion people on this planet. What are the energetic consequences?

Abhaya
5th January 2014, 22:54
Your apology is insightful and appreciated although not really necessary. I am one who needs educating. I'm not vegetarian and think it's fine if others are.

My problem comes when preparing a meal when some are vegan, some are vegetarian, some are gluten free, some are corn free, some are lactose intolerant, some will eat organic only, some no GMO, some eat chicken and not fish, some eat fish and not chicken and so on.....how do you prepare a meal with all those restrictions? Granted that not all those restrictions occur at the same dinner, but it's harder and harder to have people over.

I believe in this case the apology is symbolic, it is a statement, after reflection. Abhaya, from what I have seen, already made many changes in regards to the way he addresses the topic with others; most have not seen this, but since I was one who used to really get into with him (even though I actually supported his stance - maybe that "preaching to the choir" effect someone else mentioned), so this statement has more than one utilization, from where I am seeing.

First to solidify the change he wants to see in his communication styles with a physical anchor, and second, to let people know, who may be holding a grudges against him, that he is recognizing and addressing this. Absolutely nothing wrong with this as I am sure Abhaya just wants to be effective in our communications -- we all do and all have vast room to grow in the area of communication - it is rare when we take these challenges to ourselves.

So I can't say anything less than I am impressed with the OP and this thread, and the effect it has had and will continue to have. Now you have our attention Abhaya, well done. My 2 cents :) :)


Well thanks friend. True we did get into it quite a bit didn't we. I always liked you and your style and I think you could see that despite my debating nature on the issue.

Also it is true I for sure want to make a start at making amends with those whom which I crossed the line with. If people are holding grudges (and rightful ones) then that is just a nasty situation for a community, one that I take blame for. So also while my apology is based in reflection as you propose it is also sincere.

So let the roast continue :p jk

Actually Samwise has come up with some amazing Ideas for a new thread. I think it may go up soon. And for those interested in the subject we can continue it over there. :)

GreenGuy
6th January 2014, 19:30
I think with vegetarianism it's just like with any other personal preference, be it political, sexual, musical, or whatever. If you want to convince others that yours is the best, you will most probably fail. If you found something you like, enjoy it, and by all means express that joy. It may be contagious. But please, always respect that others may continue to stick to their preference.

Hear, hear. We all have things to tolerate about one another. And The only way to spread any ideology is to radiate the satisfaction you've found, so that other folks say, "I want that."

Milneman
6th January 2014, 21:54
Why do you need to apologize? If you wish to discuss the matter then fine.

Ya know...back in the day, well even today or that matter, an apologist is someone who takes a stand for certain issues from an expert point of view as an instructor.

A Vegan Apologist. Love it. :)

nenosema
7th January 2014, 00:37
A Vegan Apologist. Love it. :)

Post a link here,

Milneman
9th January 2014, 10:35
A Vegan Apologist. Love it. :)

Post a link here,

Try this one on for size. :)

http://fearlessvegandenver.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/vegan-apologetics/

Abhaya
9th January 2014, 12:43
Am I missing something here? Lol. Of course I would agree with many of his points. But the article is more the style I used to go for in this forum. Which I've decided is good for preaching to the chior or wasting time arguing.

Milneman
9th January 2014, 22:29
I think the point is: there's a way to argue that's not arguing as much as explaining a point of view to those who are interested in what you have to say, as opposed to trying to drag a horse to water (?)

I dunno...my class is going to be diving into the ethics of meat consumption tomorrow, so I may have new ideas lol ;)

Abhaya
10th January 2014, 01:02
I think the point is: there's a way to argue that's not arguing as much as explaining a point of view to those who are interested in what you have to say, as opposed to trying to drag a horse to water (?)

I dunno...my class is going to be diving into the ethics of meat consumption tomorrow, so I may have new ideas lol ;)


Ah very cool! Would love to hear how the class goes!

Hazelfern
10th January 2014, 17:15
Abhaya - I would just like to express my appreciation for your thoughtful response and attention and thus this thread. No matter what the subject, the fact is that you are paying attention and willing to reach out in a thoughtful way. What you have done here is take responsibility, whether or not the error lies in you. The fact is that it does not, however, it takes true humility to say that it does and only good shall come of it. This is a virtue that is sorely missing, not in this forum but in the world.

Akasha
13th January 2014, 12:00
In other forums, when things got absolutely gongshow, I found recipes always helped. :) Food brings people together. When the going get tough, the tough get granola. :)

Ok then, here's a recipe from Dr. McDougall's site (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/feb/extrarecipes.htm):



Tofu Loaf
This is an excellent, firm loaf to serve with mashed potatoes and gravy. The leftovers also make a great sandwich filling.

Preparation Time: 15 minutes
Cooking Time: 45 to 60 minutes
Servings: 6-8

30 ounces water-packed firm tofu
1 2/3 cups quick oats
¾ cup whole wheat bread crumbs
½ cup ketchup or barbecue sauce
1/3 cup soy sauce
2 tablespoons Dijon-style mustard
2 tablespoons vegetarian Worcestershire sauce
¼ teaspoon garlic powder
¼ teaspoon ground black pepper

Preheat oven to 350 degrees.

Drain the tofu well and mash finely, using a bean/potato masher and your fingers. Place in a large bowl and add the remaining ingredients. Mix well, again using your fingers. Turn the mixture into either a square baking pan or a loaf pan. (If you don’t have a non-stick pan you will need to lightly oil the pan first.) Bake the square pan for 45 minutes or the loaf pan for 60 minutes, until the top and edges are golden brown. Remove from oven and let rest for 5 minutes. Loosen sides and invert over a platter to remove from baking pan.

Hints: The quick cooking oats work best in this recipe. To make bread crumbs, process 1 slice of bread in a food processor. (Do this when you have extra older bread and store the crumbs in a sealed bag in the freezer.) Serve with a sauce or gravy to pour over the loaf-or serve plain with a barbecue sauce on the side. Vegetarian Worcestershire sauce is available in most natural food stores. Low sodium soy sauce is also available in most supermarkets for those of you who are trying to reduce your salt intake.

I actually fine tuned this recipe by sauteing onions, garlic and finely diced mushroom seasoned with a teaspoon of paprika, a little rosemary and some salt and pepper and then added them to the rest of the ingredients. As a result, I found I could use less ketchup and mustard and omit the Worcestershire sauce completely.
I use old, dried, home-made sourdough bread (blended) for my bread crumbs, add a little nutritional yeast to enhance the flavour and grate a carrot and finely dice some celery into the mix too.

I served it up as a meat free alternative at the crimbo' dinner and some of my more carnivorous relatives found it hard to believe it was vegan.

Definitely one of my favourites.

13th Warrior
13th January 2014, 15:15
Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...

Akasha
14th January 2014, 14:14
Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...

I manage to do it by considering the notion that it is the protein that is desired, not the vehicle it's delivered in. In other words veggie sausages are "proteiny" as are meat sausages, rather than veggie sausages are meaty. Not the strongest argument, perhaps, but if it results in a reduction in sentient suffering, however small, it can be squared with the intellect, if the intellect is in tune with the heart which it must be to be sound.

Of course, I won't deny that generations upon generations of synaptic conditioning in favour of the taste of meat are difficult to ignore but, if appeased through culinary trickery, can undoubtedly make this kind of dietary transition somewhat easier to broach.

Best.

Abhaya
14th January 2014, 15:25
Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...


I think that some vegetarians over time actually begin to be grossed out by the thought of chewing tasting and ingesting skin, muscle, veins, sinew, and all that yummy stuff. I personally get sick just thinking about eating it. That being said I have been vegetarian for a long time. In the beggining of ones switch to vegetarianism it is often a purely moral, or even health based change. And while the person wants to make a lesser violent imprint with their eating habits they probably have tons of meat items they are used to eating and still crave. So the fake meats I think are actually a wonderful transition food. And often they are tastier then the real thing too. All about the spices really! Meats and veggies alike are often bland in their naked state. And I think it is often the secret recipe BBQ sauce that really hooks us on that steak house burger. Not the beef itself. And I feel an identical experience can be created with a gourmet veggie burger :)

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 16:17
Akasha,

My intellect tells me that the plant kingdom is just as valuable to me as the animal kingdom. I don't consider plants to be less sentient.

Abhaya,

You say it's a matter of taste (nothing could be more suggestive).
Choice of taste seems to be a direct contradiction to the vegan philosophy.

DeDukshyn
14th January 2014, 16:27
Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...


I think that some vegetarians over time actually begin to be grossed out by the thought of chewing tasting and ingesting skin, muscle, veins, sinew, and all that yummy stuff. I personally get sick just thinking about eating it. That being said I have been vegetarian for a long time. In the beggining of ones switch to vegetarianism it is often a purely moral, or even health based change. And while the person wants to make a lesser violent imprint with their eating habits they probably have tons of meat items they are used to eating and still crave. So the fake meats I think are actually a wonderful transition food. And often they are tastier then the real thing too. All about the spices really! Meats and veggies alike are often bland in their naked state. And I think it is often the secret recipe BBQ sauce that really hooks us on that steak house burger. Not the beef itself. And I feel an identical experience can be created with a gourmet veggie burger :)

I find vegetarian dishes appear much more appetizing if they are east Indian dishes. Indians seem to really know how to make good veggie dishes that taste great. I had made Shahi Paneer the other night -- delicious! In fact this how I have been sneaking vegetarian entrees into my diet without feeling I'm missing something (Indian dishes) ;)

Robin
14th January 2014, 16:43
Akasha,

My intellect tells me that the plant kingdom is just as valuable to me as the animal kingdom. I don't consider plants to be less sentient.


It is OK to label plants as non-sentient (or a less consciousness) while still holding much value and respect towards them. Plants are rooted in the ground, basically giving themselves freely for other organissm to eat them, though with stipulations such as seed dispersal or poison! Even though plants do not have a higher consciousness that animals hold, or at least express it in another way, they are still just as valuable and important. Because of their higher vibration, those who eat plants tend to hold a higher vibration.

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 17:09
Samwise,

You bring up one of the major tenants of the vegan philosophy.

Wouldn't plants having a higher vibration make them more sentient?

This would also appear to be a direct contradiction to the philosophy.

blufire
14th January 2014, 17:26
I apologize . . it must be my dense 3D omnivore brain, but I am confused.


It is OK to label plants as non-sentient (or a less consciousness) while still holding much value and respect towards them. Plants are rooted in the ground, basically giving themselves freely for other organissm to eat them, though with stipulations such as seed dispersal or poison! Even though plants do not have a higher consciousness that animals hold, or at least express it in another way, they are still just as valuable and important. Because of their higher vibration, those who eat plants tend to hold a higher vibration

It appears (with respect) you are saying that plants are non-sentient and have less consciousness and that animals are higher conscious and sentient, BUT it is the less conscious and non-sentient ‘being’ or plant that holds a higher vibration?

I’m confused.

I am also surprised that that it appears many have not had the pleasure and magical experience of interacting with plants on an energy level. To say these living organisms are not sentient or communicative is very sad for me to hear from Avalonians and especially coming from vegans and vegetarians.

You guys need to go sit out in a healthy thriving garden or forest and connect yourself with the life forces that are everywhere and which are powerful and loving. Many times my gardens and the special places I go in the woods will meld and change with what mood or state of mind I am in. The energy colors change and flow differently whether I am upset, angry, or at peace. The plant energy and souls also (if I meld with them) will settle my spirit and state of mind.

Plants are just as sentient and conscious as we (and animals) are . . . it is just different and therefore foreign to most. I would suggest you drop your preconceived ideas and have an up close and personal experience with the life forces that are everywhere around you and in abundance.


It also appears that you vegans and vegetarians have no idea that a healthy organically grown vegetables is bursting in flavor and taste . . . no seasoning needed . . .only if you prefer. Very sad.

Also, meat if grown and cared for (and processed) correctly is bursting in flavor and very satisfying. . . . no sauces or heavy handed spices needed.

WhiteFeather
14th January 2014, 17:31
Thought this was a new thread, my bad.

Akasha
14th January 2014, 17:32
Akasha,

My intellect tells me that the plant kingdom is just as valuable to me as the animal kingdom. I don't consider plants to be less sentient.



What about their fruit?

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 17:38
Yes, I value fruit.

Akasha
14th January 2014, 17:50
Yes, I value fruit.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the sentience of a plant's fruit.

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 17:59
Are eggs sentient?

Akasha
14th January 2014, 18:45
Are eggs sentient?

I would have thought that would depend on whether they have been fertilized or not, the level of sentience arguably being relative to the period of time since fertilization.

I think I have some idea where you are going with this line of response but I would appreciate it if you could elaborate.

Maunagarjana
14th January 2014, 18:49
As self-punishment for your trangressions, you should inflict yourself with a steak dinner. Only then will your sins be forgiven. ;)

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 18:53
Assume the the eggs are fertilized; since fruit cannot be formed unless fertilized.

Akasha
14th January 2014, 19:10
Assume the the eggs are fertilized; since fruit cannot be formed unless fertilized.

Ok, I get where you are going with this now. Is the fruit sentient once it has fallen from the tree?

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 19:16
Is the egg sentient when it's departed it's bearer?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I understand your hesitancy to answer; it's not so clear cut is it?

Robin
14th January 2014, 19:17
Samwise,

You bring up one of the major tenants of the vegan philosophy.

Wouldn't plants having a higher vibration make them more sentient?

This would also appear to be a direct contradiction to the philosophy.


I apologize . . it must be my dense 3D omnivore brain, but I am confused.


It is OK to label plants as non-sentient (or a less consciousness) while still holding much value and respect towards them. Plants are rooted in the ground, basically giving themselves freely for other organissm to eat them, though with stipulations such as seed dispersal or poison! Even though plants do not have a higher consciousness that animals hold, or at least express it in another way, they are still just as valuable and important. Because of their higher vibration, those who eat plants tend to hold a higher vibration

It appears (with respect) you are saying that plants are non-sentient and have less consciousness and that animals are higher conscious and sentient, BUT it is the less conscious and non-sentient ‘being’ or plant that holds a higher vibration?

I’m confused.

I am also surprised that that it appears many have not had the pleasure and magical experience of interacting with plants on an energy level. To say these living organisms are not sentient or communicative is very sad for me to hear from Avalonians and especially coming from vegans and vegetarians.

You guys need to go sit out in a healthy thriving garden or forest and connect yourself with the life forces that are everywhere and which are powerful and loving. Many times my gardens and the special places I go in the woods will meld and change with what mood or state of mind I am in. The energy colors change and flow differently whether I am upset, angry, or at peace. The plant energy and souls also (if I meld with them) will settle my spirit and state of mind.

Plants are just as sentient and conscious as we (and animals) are . . . it is just different and therefore foreign to most. I would suggest you drop your preconceived ideas and have an up close and personal experience with the life forces that are everywhere around you and in abundance.


It also appears that you vegans and vegetarians have no idea that a healthy organically grown vegetables is bursting in flavor and taste . . . no seasoning needed . . .only if you prefer. Very sad.

Also, meat if grown and cared for (and processed) correctly is bursting in flavor and very satisfying. . . . no sauces or heavy handed spices needed.

I see why my comment would startle some, so I will elaborate on what I really meant to say. I now realize that the term sentience has very confusing conotations...and I was wrong in using the word "sentient." I have in the past used the term "sentience" interchangeably with "consciousness" which is not accurate.

I am as empethetic as one could get towards all life forms, but I do indeed place plants in a separate category as animals. I agree with everything you have said, blufire, and please forgive me for confusing the term "sentience." I understand why you may associate vegans with being ignorant, distasteful, and close-minded people, which is sometimes true, but that does not mean that we all are.

I myself eat the same plain food every day and eat organic as much as possible. As you've mentioned, vegetables and fruit are bursting with flavor, and to me, it is insulting to the organisms to change their natural taste to a high degree for a temporary pleasure by adding loads of spices.

Yes, plants do feel...just as we all do. But I think, going off of our standard model for service-to-self (STS) and service-to-others (STO) orientations, we can extrapolate how the plant and animal kingdoms fit into the model.

I think it makes sense to label most plants as STO, because they are rooted in the ground and open themselves up to being exploited by other organisms. Of course, they do evolve thorns, poison, and other self-defense mechanisms, but they still remain rooted into the ground. There is no plant species that is not eaten by at least one other organism, no matter how defensive they can be.

Through chemicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_sentience), they communciate with one another to achieve balance in a system. I'd argue that most of the time plants have conscious goals of unifying an ecological system, as trees do so by communicating underground in their root systems through vast expanses of forests. Overall, plants dominate mutualistic associations with other organisms.

I label plants as having lesser consciousness because they operate through chemical functions. They perceive inbalance in the collective system of life to a greater degree than animals, and form large numbers of mutualistic associations, therefore they have a higher vibration.

Animals, on the other hand, have a higher consciousness in that they operate through neural functions. They are not rooted in the ground, and through appendages manuever out of the way of predators. They simply do not want to be eaten as that is detrimental to their fitness, so it may make sense to label them as (mostly) STS. Evolution functions largely due to natural selection and survival of the fittest with animals. If an animal does not have certain traits, then it will die...therefore, they need to generally be STS to survive.

Again, I am speaking in generalized terms here. Dogs, which were artificially selected by breeding wolves, have gained a higher consciousness that leads them to mainly being STO. Therefore, dogs have a higher vibration. Am I saying that eating dogs would be just as good as eating plants because they also have a higher vibration? NO!

Because dogs are STO oriented beings, but have NEURAL-based consciousness, it would be overall detrimental to the human body. Becasue plants are STO beings, but have CHEMICAL-based consciousness, it would be overall healthier for the human body.

Akasha
14th January 2014, 19:24
Is the egg sentient when it's departed it's bearer?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I understand your hesitancy to answer; it's not so clear cut is it?

I would say it is pretty clear cut. No for fruit / yes for animals. It's certainly clear cut enough to abstain from eating the latter, in my eyes at least. The tree wants the fruit to be consumed to aid in it's eventual dispersal. The same could not be said for a fertilized chicken egg.

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 19:26
Samwise,

I see you've identified a chemical means of communication.

The human body communicates via chemicals.

Robin
14th January 2014, 19:28
Samwise,

You bring up one of the major tenants of the vegan philosophy.

Wouldn't plants having a higher vibration make them more sentient?

This would also appear to be a direct contradiction to the philosophy.


Samwise,

I see you've identified a chemical means of communication.

The human body communicates via chemicals.

Yes, I am aware of this, my friend. But our consciousness is driven by neural activity. That's my point. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 19:30
I say every living thing desires to stay alive and is driven to continue the species through procreation.

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 19:34
Arguing accomplishes nothing; I am asking pointed questions designed to make you think more deeply about your sacred cows beliefs (pun intended)

What if you found out that plant also communicate through electrical impulses?

Akasha
14th January 2014, 20:03
I say every living thing desires to stay alive and is driven to continue the species through procreation.


....I am asking pointed questions designed to make you think more deeply about your sacred cows beliefs (pun intended)....

I don't want to put words in your mouth but are you saying that since every living thing desires to stay alive, we should just eat every living thing?

I would also defer back (again) to the symbiotic relationship between animals and fruit-bearing plants which manages to avoid the conundrum you present.

I trust thinking more deeply is not solely incumbent on our part as abstainers of animal products.

Akasha
14th January 2014, 20:11
I like making these from time to time too:

5vaFpvjaY8Q

They aren't trying to be meaty either, rather veggie burgers for veggie burgers' sake ;).

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 20:19
My main point is that i'm challenging your belief/justification for eating plants on your preconceived notion that they are not sentient.

Sentient=aware

In order for plants to produce fruit there blossoms have to be cross pollinated/fertilized. This is commonly done by bees. The plant will detect a bee in it's proximity and send an electrical signal to the bee guiding it to the flower. Plants also send out signals to near by plants warning that it is under attack...this type of activity tells me that plants are sentient/aware.

Milneman
14th January 2014, 20:36
Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...


I think that some vegetarians over time actually begin to be grossed out by the thought of chewing tasting and ingesting skin, muscle, veins, sinew, and all that yummy stuff. I personally get sick just thinking about eating it. That being said I have been vegetarian for a long time. In the beggining of ones switch to vegetarianism it is often a purely moral, or even health based change. And while the person wants to make a lesser violent imprint with their eating habits they probably have tons of meat items they are used to eating and still crave. So the fake meats I think are actually a wonderful transition food. And often they are tastier then the real thing too. All about the spices really! Meats and veggies alike are often bland in their naked state. And I think it is often the secret recipe BBQ sauce that really hooks us on that steak house burger. Not the beef itself. And I feel an identical experience can be created with a gourmet veggie burger :)

I find vegetarian dishes appear much more appetizing if they are east Indian dishes. Indians seem to really know how to make good veggie dishes that taste great. I had made Shahi Paneer the other night -- delicious! In fact this how I have been sneaking vegetarian entrees into my diet without feeling I'm missing something (Indian dishes) ;)

Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag nom nom nom nom

Agape
14th January 2014, 20:42
Akasha,

My intellect tells me that the plant kingdom is just as valuable to me as the animal kingdom. I don't consider plants to be less sentient.


It is OK to label plants as non-sentient (or a less consciousness) while still holding much value and respect towards them. Plants are rooted in the ground, basically giving themselves freely for other organissm to eat them, though with stipulations such as seed dispersal or poison! Even though plants do not have a higher consciousness that animals hold, or at least express it in another way, they are still just as valuable and important. Because of their higher vibration, those who eat plants tend to hold a higher vibration.



I think the debate is going wrong here, 13th Warrior ..

Plants are sentient . By the definition , every form of life is 'sentient' . Even bacteria and viruses are sentient as long as they respond to stimuli and manifest autonomous form of intelligence and behaviour .
Whether they can protect themselves and what tactics do they evolve in order to protect themselves, and whether they are capable of procreation is debatable .

But so is the point of values . Yes all Life is valuable . If you need to eat plants to survive it does not exactly 'rise the level of your consciousness'
but because ( and if ) the plants you eat are the least harmful to you, it at least, does not lower or alter your consciousness way you can't handle .

By eating plants.. you do not become a plant . And it's not by chance that you don't become a plant because if you are semi-intelligent life form who will accidentally eat plants capable of creating off shoots in your digestive system , you will actually become a plant at the end . If you eat poisonous plant and die ( presuming there are no other predators around ) , you'll become their source of food . Not vice versa.

So it says, who is more intelligent wins the game .

If you eat flash , and basically feel you need to kill animals to sustain yourself it makes you predator to the animal kingdom, by using the same brute force animals use .

If we take this to extreme , and see cannibalism as form of self-sustainance and admit it was once a norm among many aboriginal tribes and part of their religious systems and culture ,
they ate some of their most valuable members in order to retain and absorb their excellent qualities .

Considering that people were not so wide spread as they are now , and were probably even more dear to each other ..
and apart of the horrid prejudice we all would feel about eating each other now,

it was explainable behaviour with one gross disadvantage ,

genetically , it had to turn them against each other . In discrete way and in long term, because you can't really , no matter how much you eat, become someone else . But , you can develop auto-immune responses, of such nature that your organism starts fighting itself or one of its own parts .
Because one or more of your faraway ancestors actually ate each other . And further on, when they stopped doing that ,

they still continued eating higher animal species with similar protein chemistry who awake similar auto-immune responses, in long run.

So, not all what is too close and too dear to you is also the best for you , especially , if you decide to pass it through your stomach.


The principle about plants is yes, they're sentient but they are benign to human organism to a deal , and only if you choose them wisely .
Eating only vegetables can make you potentially very unhealthy if you can't THINK. The same way like a child will eat packets of sweets and nuts then have sore belly .

Eating plants that cause you least harm , personally because each individual organism is different and if you want to stay healthy you need to listen to what it says , is fine.

The same way as phyto-plancton is usually harmless to marine mammals and can sustain their nutrition.

Higher the intelligence in the animal /life form , more complex the problem turns to be and that's not really only some kind of philosophical problem,
it's a problem of biological discrepancy , problem of subjugating and wiping out many species from this planet, problem of turning yourself to predator .

Being predator like being makes you feel strong but it does not automatically grant the best evolutionary choice or maintain your genetic structure and autonomous intelligence on its natural level .

You're choosing who you are and who you want to become, in either case ..

and looking back to history .. there were many misinformed decisions made 'in good faith' that such and such serves you the best .


:angel:

Milneman
14th January 2014, 20:56
I apologize . . it must be my dense 3D omnivore brain, but I am confused.


It is OK to label plants as non-sentient (or a less consciousness) while still holding much value and respect towards them. Plants are rooted in the ground, basically giving themselves freely for other organissm to eat them, though with stipulations such as seed dispersal or poison! Even though plants do not have a higher consciousness that animals hold, or at least express it in another way, they are still just as valuable and important. Because of their higher vibration, those who eat plants tend to hold a higher vibration

It appears (with respect) you are saying that plants are non-sentient and have less consciousness and that animals are higher conscious and sentient, BUT it is the less conscious and non-sentient ‘being’ or plant that holds a higher vibration?

I’m confused.

I am also surprised that that it appears many have not had the pleasure and magical experience of interacting with plants on an energy level. To say these living organisms are not sentient or communicative is very sad for me to hear from Avalonians and especially coming from vegans and vegetarians.

You guys need to go sit out in a healthy thriving garden or forest and connect yourself with the life forces that are everywhere and which are powerful and loving. Many times my gardens and the special places I go in the woods will meld and change with what mood or state of mind I am in. The energy colors change and flow differently whether I am upset, angry, or at peace. The plant energy and souls also (if I meld with them) will settle my spirit and state of mind.

Plants are just as sentient and conscious as we (and animals) are . . . it is just different and therefore foreign to most. I would suggest you drop your preconceived ideas and have an up close and personal experience with the life forces that are everywhere around you and in abundance.


It also appears that you vegans and vegetarians have no idea that a healthy organically grown vegetables is bursting in flavor and taste . . . no seasoning needed . . .only if you prefer. Very sad.

Also, meat if grown and cared for (and processed) correctly is bursting in flavor and very satisfying. . . . no sauces or heavy handed spices needed.

I've been doing some reading as part of my course in ethics about this. I have to say I'm somewhat surprised at the approach some of the students in the class are taking. For example: the fundamental difference between two men boxing and two roosters in a cock fight is that the roosters aren't fighting with the knowledge that one may die.

:suspicious:

I was about to say that we have no empirical knowledge that is so, and basing any form of conclusion based on that would be horribly flawed until I heard the professor agree.

:suspicious:

This is going to be a fun class. The article I read is in Ethical Issues: Perspectives for Canadians published by broadview press entitled, "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer. In this article, "Singer argues that all suffering counts equally no matter who it is, and that non-human animals are capable of suffering." (p.26)

He says "A liberation movement demands an expansion of our moral horizons, so that practices that were previously regarded as natural and inevitable are now seen as intolerable." He describes factory farms, the laws introduced in England to create a more humane environment in factory farms, medical experimentation, vivisection, you name it, and argues that speciesism is the grounding force behind our acceptance of what, if practiced on human beings, would be considered illegal, immoral, and unethical.

So, I ask myself, why do we allow ourselves to believe these things about what we are doing if not to justify the gaining of some form of capital (meat for example) from a sentient being? Biblically, and as a Christian I believe it's important to consider a biblical perspective with this, we are told "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Ignoring the dietary aspects of this, I want to focus instead on the word "rule".

What qualities do we consider in a good leader? There are in fact many qualities, but I would submit that above them all, a sense of justice would probably be among the top three or four. "Plato contended that justice is the quality of soul, in virtue of which men set aside the irrational desire to taste every pleasure and to get a selfish satisfaction out of every object and accommodated themselves to the discharge of a single function for the general benefit." (Bhandari, http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Anci/AnciBhan.htm).

Could we, then, consider ourselves living in a just society if we consider each and every species a citizen?

This has really made me consider why I consume meat, and think carefully about continuing to do so.

Your mileage may vary. ;)

Kristin
14th January 2014, 21:19
I've been doing some reading as part of my course in ethics about this. I have to say I'm somewhat surprised at the approach some of the students in the class are taking. For example: the fundamental difference between two men boxing and two roosters in a cock fight is that the roosters aren't fighting with the knowledge that one may die.

Wow, I grew up on a farm and I can't imagine any animal not behaving in the NOW as every instinct is a life and death action or reaction. Animals will play with other animals that they hunt (or that are their enemies) when their bellies are full and they are not needing to mate. In other words, when their needs are taken care of.

It's a complex issue. Perhaps if humanities needs are taken care of it will be easier to discuss any number of topics and lifestyle choices. Perhaps only then will we be able to relax enough to make choices based purely on ethics. Just a thought.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Milneman
14th January 2014, 21:26
Kristin, this is exactly the point I think I'm coming to realize:

One cannot simply look at one ethical issue at a time and make a decision without first having a complete worldview in place. To do so is...well...dangerous.

But it's got me thinking, and that's a good thing. :D

13th Warrior
14th January 2014, 21:58
Ethics is how one behaves when no one is looking...

Ethics also are a product of social norms...problems arise when one tries to force ones ethics upon another...especially when the other finds the basis for these forced ethics seem to be founded upon false pretexts.

DeDukshyn
14th January 2014, 23:31
At the end of the day it is about choices. Ethics is only one leg on the debate for vegetarianism, and not one that is satisfied by any common "logical" answer, therefore each must choose the ethical path that they feel best fit to choose based on what they know. This is the only way to approach this aspect of vegetarianism, however it is far from the only argument. I stay out of these ethics debates because it is about the right of individual choice as to what level or criteria to follow regarding ethics - there is no "right" or "wrong".

That said, we can say a few things to broaden our view:

Is modern western style meat farming absolutely horrific in its treatment and well being of our fellow planetary life? Absolutely.

Is the planet being destroyed to grow crops to feed excessive meat eating habits of the "civilized"? Absolutely. The south American rain forests are being depleted quickly for this exact reason.

Is our excessive meat eating habits fueling GMO? Absolutely -- Monsanto makes a huge fortune off of GMO soy and corn that is strictly grown as feed for food animals, that fortune goes back in to feed the monster.

So the question of ethics, on this topic, in my mind is a leg that varies in length for each personal point of view, it is variable, and no one can make it a constant. The other three legs on the debate however, are constant. My 2 cents on the topic this thread has turned into ;)

DeDukshyn
14th January 2014, 23:35
Recipes anyone? ;)

http://allrecipes.com/recipes/world-cuisine/asian/indian/main-dishes/vegetarian/

Heartsong
15th January 2014, 00:20
Does it make a difference ethically if the act of eating a plant or animal terminates its life as opposed to eating it sometime after it dies from another cause?

Example: I've never personally killed a cow. I have eaten hamburger. I have never harvested corn. I have eaten corn chips.

Kristin
15th January 2014, 00:40
Does it make a difference ethically if the act of eating a plant or animal terminates its life as opposed to eating it sometime after it dies from another cause?

Example: I've never personally killed a cow. I have eaten hamburger. I have never harvested corn. I have eaten corn chips.

I think the answer depends upon your personal beliefs and experiences Heartsong. This is a hot topic as many of our beliefs upon this subject are diametrically opposed. These oppositions will not be resolved here. We can however practice sharing our own experiences with each other in a way that is respectful and without emotional charge. At the heart of this emotional practice is compassion. Compassion for all that is and compassion for our varied beliefs, upbringings, and future challenges.

From the Heart,
Kristin

DeDukshyn
15th January 2014, 00:56
Does it make a difference ethically if the act of eating a plant or animal terminates its life as opposed to eating it sometime after it dies from another cause?

Example: I've never personally killed a cow. I have eaten hamburger. I have never harvested corn. I have eaten corn chips.

Consider that those who eat foods not grown themselves and harvested themselves - whether plant or animal, have far less perspective on the topic than those who have. I know many meat eaters that would become vegetarian if they had to raise and kill their own food; at the same time I know many who would accept that as a part of meat eating. The point is, after you have done it, then you have a broad enough perspective to be able to say "I can eat meat" or perhaps it would come out as "I'd rather not eat meat" - but at least the experience was appropriate for the resultant action.

I would encourage people who staunchly defend meat eating, if they have never processed their own food from live animal, to give it a try before defending the act. If you do it and still defend it and are ok to do it again - in my opinion this is when people have earned their "right" to eat meat and defend the practice. I'd say that most people are meat eaters out of the convenience of not having to be any part of the animals life or death.

On the ethics perspective, I think that argument is over now. As it should be. ;)

That said, this is my objective opinion -- I am currently an omnivore, and have participated in rendering chickens (and a little bit of other animals) suitable for personal consumption, from living animals. It really becomes different when you have to raise these animals, you can actually become friends with them. It's a bit rough trying to eat your friends! :P

Abhaya
15th January 2014, 02:32
What an awesome discussion has sprung up on here. This made my night!!

So nice to see people feeling comfortable to ask honest questions. Certainly my own perception of this debate has been expanded

And dedukshyn has revealed the secret to being a successful fully satisfied vegetarian...... Indian food........ Now im hungry.

.

Abhaya
15th January 2014, 02:40
Here is a interesting recipe idea. One that I have at least one of every day. Try replacing one meal a day with a green smoothie. As heavy on the greens as you can while still tasting good to you. I usually use mostly bananas 5 to 12. And what ever other fruit goodies I have around blue berries, dates, the possibilities are endless. And don't forget a little clean water. I guess that's not a very precise recipe but that's what makes this one fun. So blend up your own romaine fruity creations and start reaping the rewards. And if u want to be really nuts like me you can try going days at a time on the smoothie diet. U might like it so much that you never stop. :)

DeDukshyn
15th January 2014, 04:15
...

And dedukshyn has revealed the secret to being a successful fully satisfied vegetarian...... Indian food........ Now im hungry.

.

Seriously ... After learning some Indian recipes, I'll never boil cauliflower again. Yuck! I can't believe I thought that was HOW it HAD to be made. Curry potatoes!? Sounds great! OR you could boil them with some salt ... Compared to Indians, white people are deprived of flavours. ;) Heh, and I am white as it gets (German / Russian roots). :)

blufire
15th January 2014, 16:02
I am focusing this post of mine directly back to your OP Abahaya

Let me first say that in as much your have been an assertive voice for the “V’s” I am certainly the more assertive and consistent voice on the forum for the omnivores.


So I will be making an honest attempt to address my behavior on this issue. I do still feel it is an important issue and if any one has any ideas on how we can better bring the issue forward I would love to hear your ideas.

I would hope that this statement also pertains to us omnivores, but it still sounds like you are still heavily one-sided in insisting that converting to vegetarianism is the only solution. But here are my ideas and thoughts.

You speak of the ‘issue’ . . . what is the issue? That 90% of humanity are omnivores or how difficult it is to convert omnivores to a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle? Or is it the processes of how we feed the mass majority of omnivores (and v’s) worldwide?


. . . . vegetarianism on this forum. It is a subject I am passionate about. And something that plays a huge factor in the state of the world today. As well as being a possible solution to many problems we face today. However I find my self at a loss on how to present the issue. Regardless I am now sure that the methods I have choose in the past are inappropriate and ineffective.

I hear you saying vegetarianism (or the lack of vegetarians) across the planet is causing the state of the world today and that this (V lifestyle) is a possible solution to many problems (?) we are facing today and that your methods are inappropriate and ineffective.


And I have decided the error lies with me. Because no matter who is right or wrong in the argument, if someone is eliciting violent responses from people then they are probably doing it wrong, and unfit to be fronting the debate

I hear you saying here that the error lies with you and how you are presenting yourself and your passion and that somehow if you ‘do it right’ then you will be more successful in converting we omnivores

Perhaps you could look into the possible notion that you receive such a violentcand angry reaction because your beliefs and solution to the ‘issue’ ARE flat out wrong and are in no way a practical or even a possible solution.

In all the past debates on this issue and the multiple threads it always gets diverted into philosophical, emotional, far reaching justifications on both sides. It ends up with the ‘V’s’ trying to make we omnivores feel guilty, murderous, low vibrating and somehow dirty . . .let along the sole reason for the atrocities of factory animal farming. You come off self righteous, aggressive, condemning, hurtful and very disrespectful.

This debate always ends up in anger and frustration because converting the world to a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is simply not possible in any way shape or form and it IS wrong for you to have this assumption or expectation.

The ‘V’s’ refuse to admit that your preferred choice on what you eat is simply a lifestyle choice. Being an omnivore is the natural state for humans, it is NOT a lifestyle in any way shape or form. Humans’ consuming both meat and plants is natural and the healthiest state for the mass majority of humanity.

The only way to end or at least reduce the amount of animals slaughtered and the atrocities of animal factory farming for human consumption is to drastically reduce the human population. And that is a whole other sticky debate isn’t it? Ironically I have found that (for the most part) most people who are against population reduction or control are also the ones who promote the ‘V’ lifestyle.

I have brought up several times in these debates the following Truths and never (that I can remember) has it even been addressed by the ‘V’s”. . . . probably because they are irrefutable Truths . . . . . .

(1) Can you (as a vegetarian and especially vegan) maintain your ‘lifestyle’ without the benefit of grocery stores and supplementation?

In your last post Abayha you gave a recipe for a green smoothie that contained bananas and blueberries and large quantities of greens . . . do you grow any of these ingredients and preserve them or buy them at your local grocery store? Where does the grocery store get these products (shipped for thousands of miles around the world) Let alone the fact the many people cannot afford financially to buy these things. A pint of blueberries in the grocery store is close to $8 where I live. Many people cannot afford this lifestyle and the majority is not capable or knowledgeable enough to grow their own food.

Supplementation (vitamins, minerals and protein substitutes) are needed in most cases to maintain optimal human health if living a ‘V’ lifestyle. What would happen if that supplementation is not available or affordable?


(2) How is it possible (V lifestyle) for humans who live in areas of the world that are not conducive to growing vegetables and fruit year around (or at all) to feed themselves? A significant majority of humanity live in these regions of the world. They have to have meat sources and animal products to sustain them through the winter or hot desert regions.

Tell and Inuit or African plains native they can only eat fruits and vegetables and no longer eat meat or animal products and think of the response you would get.

If your solution is not a solution for every human across the planet then it is not a solution let alone practical.

(3) When I try to come up with solutions or theories on any subject or problem I reduce it first to its most basic and foundational state. I work hard to stay out of the grey areas and first and look at it from a black and white and very pragmatic way. When I reduce or break down the ‘V lifestyle’ to the foundation it simple is not a sustainable or practical solution in every aspect.

Without grocery stores or supplementation it is not doable
It is not an option for every human across the planet
It is not affordable for the majority or a ‘green’ solution (ex: shipping worldwide)
The ‘V’ lifestyle is not natural for humans whose natural state is as an omnivore
90% or more of humanity eat meat and animal products

And most of all . . . . .

Everyone converting to the ‘V’ lifestyle is not a solution to animal abuse and factory farming and slaughter.

The only way I can see reducing the amount of animal slaughter and everything connected with this industry is the reduction of the human population . . . and this is not going to happen for many years, if at all, is it?

The bottomline (for me) is I support your choice to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle and for what ever reason you have made this choice. I have physically (organic farm in Kansas) made the ‘V’ lifestyle easier and healthier for many. I respect and encourage those who are inclined to explore this possibility for their lives and family for whatever reasons. . . . all I ask is that same respect and understanding for not only myself but for the majority of humanity.

So Abahaya what are you truly apologizing for? I will have to say that in its (your apology) current presentation I do not hear an apology. I hear you voicing your desire to find yet another way to successfully convert the natural state of we omnivores to your ‘lifestyle choice’. I also hear you are still trying to force a solution (animal abuse and farming) that is in no way pragmatic or even remotely doable . . . let alone ‘humane’ to the mast majority of the world’s human population.

Robin
15th January 2014, 16:14
Blufire, please see my thread: Choosing our conscious evolutionary path--a possible future for humanity?
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?67122-Choosing-our-conscious-evolutionary-path-a-possible-future-for-humanity)As you know, I respect your viewpoints very much and find you to be a strong, intelligent woman. I'd really like to hear your opinion on my thread.

Abhaya
15th January 2014, 17:34
Blufire thank u for providing me with a mirror of how I used to present arguments on this issue in the past. Lots of "facts". And lots of the other person being 100% wrong. Actually everything about your posts seems to put you up on a condemning pedistal. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And to be honest I have no desire nor do I see much hope for any productive discourse between the two of us. I see your stance clearly. And as you have read into my "true intentions" then I assume u do not care to hear from me any way. I often feel like you are searching for opertunities to snuff peope out on this forum..... To shame them into submission and then stand triumphantly over them. Bad energy.....

Abhaya
15th January 2014, 17:41
There was an honest discussion taking place with out any of the you're ideas are 100% Wrong and here is the proper way to think about it rhetoric u expose in your post. Thanks again for illuminating the type of behavior I want to distance my self from.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

And I am defeating my own purpose by giving into some anger hear but honestly your post is quite disrespectful

Heartsong
15th January 2014, 18:00
There are millions on this planet that have no choice in what they eat. They feel fortunate if they eat. The question of being vegetarian or not would seem petty if not downright unreal.

That we are in a position to engage in this discussion is humbling.

Lettherebelight
15th January 2014, 18:23
Agreed, Heartsong.

We are fortunate indeed to be in a position in which we have the opportunity to choose.

13th Warrior
15th January 2014, 18:26
I don't always agree with but, I do appreciate Blufire's furvour; she is a real salt of the earth individual. She walks the walk...

I see nothing wrong with a vegan diet but, it's not a magic bullet and it doesn't automatically make you a healthy; enlightened; higher vibrating; more ethical person...

Any diet that's unbalanced is unhealthy and leads to unbalanced/irrational behavior.

Who, what, when, were and weather needs to be considered when choosing what you eat.

I'll use myself as an example: My natural condition is to be yin full. I live in a northern climate where the current weather is cold. Cold temps have a yin effect on the body. I need to balance these fixed conditions by eating yang type foods.

I do see many vegans who consume too many raw vegetables; this can cause the holier than thou attitude. If you find yourself in this condition; you need to add more grounding foods to your diet.

blufire
15th January 2014, 18:59
I admit 100% Abahaya that vegetarians like you (and others on the forum) solidly push my buttons.

There are others (like SamwiseThe Brave) I respect very highly and listen very closely to what they say.

On my Kansas farm I worked closely with many vegetarians and vegans. I worked very closely with several families with autistic children to provide them with raw goat’s milk and other farm products and farm life to help cure and heal these children (and families)

For certain vegetarians I even kept a portion of my flock of hens in a separate enclosure away from the rooster so I could provide them with unfertilized organic eggs.

There was mutual respect, camaraderie and understanding with all of us involved. It was all things good and positive.

You (and a few others on the forum) flat out remind me of a minority of vegans and vegetarians I had conflict with through the years. This minority ‘preached’ to me and my farm staff and the other customers to the point they were disruptive and down right rude and offensive. I have told stories of some of these disruptions on the forum.

I was put in the position several times to ask these vegans/vegetarians to leave the farm or the markets and not return. I had to call the police a couple times because of how confrontational and aggressive they were.

There is behavior (from all sides) that is full with understanding and respect and then there is extreme hard lined activism. You behave and remind me of the latter.

I understand that I probably remind you and come across as the latter as well. But I would ask you to look at my posts (in past threads) and see that the only time I am triggered into an aggressive stance is when certain people just won’t let it go and (in my opinion) become hurtful bullies against omnivores.

I am giving my attention to the thread Samwise referred me to above.

Am I saying that I won’t revisit this tired ole’ topic . . . nope . . . . because yes, I am bull headed and relentless. I will respect where respect is earned and returned, but I will rise to protect and be a voice when I feel I should and especially if I have direct experience . . .as in this topic.

Abhaya
15th January 2014, 20:04
With all due respect this thread was an attempt at moving away from the very actions you are describing. And as a matter of fact I have not engaged in any such behavior since apologizing. It would almost seem you have no goal here other then to try to provoke me..... You have now repeatedly said what I jerk I am. And how I am a misguided vegan. I gladly have admitted such about my self from the start of this thread. If u do not accept my apology as genuine then please carry on. But what is the point in further trying to bury me? The only opinion i stated on this thread was that veggie burgers might be a suitable alternative for real burgers. And you almost bit my fingers off mid typing for that..... And why is that your stating of opinions as facts in your post is any less preachy then some crazy vegan. You say that it is delusional to think that human kind moving towards a vegetarian diet could possibly bring any thing positive. I don't see how you can state something like that as fact. Certainly that is a debatable issue........ And honest debate on both sides is nice, and was going nice until u stormed in here fillin the void I used to fill?

Limor Wolf
15th January 2014, 20:15
I read the OP and found some real emotional inteligence and a sincere desire for one to check themselvs and built bridges, see where ends can meet. Thank you, Abhaya. My next words will be written with my best effort as to not sound too rude or disrespectful, but as honest and direct with my words as same manner that forum member - Bluefire often demonstrates.


Originally posted by Abhaya: "Wanted to take a moment to apologize..I find I have caused extreme anger in others. And I have decided the error lies with me. Because no matter who is right or wrong in the argument, if someone is eliciting violent responses from people then they are probably doing it wrong"


Originally posted by Bluefire to Abhaya: "You come off self righteous, aggressive, condemning, hurtful and very disrespectful."

On this, let me copy two quotes that seems fit-

A man's manners are a mirror in which he shows his portrait.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Life is a mirror and will reflect back to the thinker what he thinks into it.
Ernest Holmes

I wonder, bluefire, if you take the time to read the message behind what people say, to really understand where the person is coming from..Or are you just racing to overwrite the person. I might be asked to go on vacation for this but I personally find your behaviour and style, no matter what subject you participate in, arrogent, intriguing, disrespectful of other's life style and differences of opinion, preaching, patronizing and in general represent separation.

You are so sure of your convictions that you leave no space for others to be right or for yourself to be wrong


Originally posted by Bluefire: "It ends up with the ‘V’s’ trying to make we omnivores feel guilty, murderous, low vibrating and somehow dirty"

Only you can make yourself feel that way

If there's anything good, positive or worthwhile that you can say to Abhaya or the "V's (as you call them), maybe now it's the time for that.

Sincerely,

Limor

Kristin
15th January 2014, 20:29
Quote Originally posted by Bluefire: "It ends up with the ‘V’s’ trying to make we omnivores feel guilty, murderous, low vibrating and somehow dirty"
Only you can make yourself feel that way


Bluefire,

I must say that as a moderator and as an omnivore I am in agreement with the idea that you are reflecting your own energy. Please consider this and try to find a more compassionate and community minded way of expressing yourself here on the forum. Thank you.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Sierra
15th January 2014, 20:52
I read the OP and found some real emotional inteligence and a sincere desire for one to check themselvs and built bridges, see where ends can meet. Thank you, Abhaya. My next words will be written with my best effort as to not sound too rude or disrespectful, but as honest and direct with my words as same manner that forum member - Bluefire often demonstrates.


Originally posted by Abhaya: "Wanted to take a moment to apologize..I find I have caused extreme anger in others. And I have decided the error lies with me. Because no matter who is right or wrong in the argument, if someone is eliciting violent responses from people then they are probably doing it wrong"


Originally posted by Bluefire to Abhaya: "You come off self righteous, aggressive, condemning, hurtful and very disrespectful."

Snip...

I might be asked to go on vacation for this but I personally find your behaviour and style, no matter what subject you participate in, arrogent, intriguing, disrespectful of other's life style and differences of opinion, preaching, patronizing and in general represent separation.


I see no reason for a vacation here ...

Milneman
15th January 2014, 21:35
Ethics is how one behaves when no one is looking...

Ethics also are a product of social norms...problems arise when one tries to force ones ethics upon another...especially when the other finds the basis for these forced ethics seem to be founded upon false pretexts.

This is one point of view. :)

Another point of view is they are in innate ideas that everyone knows, and that our ethics develope based on how we want to accept or deny these truths in relationship to what we get/loose. Both have value I think, but I wonder if it's drifting ot? Would love to participate in a thread with this as topic 13. :)

Mike
15th January 2014, 21:36
I personally have really enjoyed Bluefire's posts here. I couldn't have made the meat argument any better myself. She presents it clinically and with precision. I actually.found myself cheering on a few occasions;)

but, much as I agree with it..I think these posts are in the wrong thread. Of course, no matter how objective Abbaya attempts to be, her tendency will always be to support vegeterianism. And that's cool. It'd be the same with me if the situation was reversed. But instead of continuing the limping dog of a debate that this has become, I think it would be best for Bluefire to start her own thread, if she hasn't already.

One thing we've learned from this type of debate, if nothing else, is that it's utterly useless. Let the vegetarians be vegetarians in peace, and grant the meat eaters the same. End of story.

Milneman
15th January 2014, 21:36
Does it make a difference ethically if the act of eating a plant or animal terminates its life as opposed to eating it sometime after it dies from another cause?

Example: I've never personally killed a cow. I have eaten hamburger. I have never harvested corn. I have eaten corn chips.

Get thee to a pot of soil and grow a tomato. :) Everything you need to know about life can be learned by growing tomatoes. :)

13th Warrior
15th January 2014, 21:41
Milneman,

Allow me to illustrate ethic/culture/social norms:

There are groups in Asia where it's accepted practise to eat dogs.

That same behavior in the US is liable to get you put in jail for animal abuse.

Flash
15th January 2014, 21:56
Abhaya, that people remind you of how difficult your behavior seemed to have been to them is just plain karma. Accept it as it is and it will pass.

I personally accept your obviously sincere apologies.

Love to you


With all due respect this thread was an attempt at moving away from the very actions you are describing. And as a matter of fact I have not engaged in any such behavior since apologizing. It would almost seem you have no goal here other then to try to provoke me..... You have now repeatedly said what I jerk I am. And how I am a misguided vegan. I gladly have admitted such about my self from the start of this thread. If u do not accept my apology as genuine then please carry on. But what is the point in further trying to bury me? The only opinion i stated on this thread was that veggie burgers might be a suitable alternative for real burgers. And you almost bit my fingers off mid typing for that..... And why is that your stating of opinions as facts in your post is any less preachy then some crazy vegan. You say that it is delusional to think that human kind moving towards a vegetarian diet could possibly bring any thing positive. I don't see how you can state something like that as fact. Certainly that is a debatable issue........ And honest debate on both sides is nice, and was going nice until u stormed in here fillin the void I used to fill?

Limor Wolf
15th January 2014, 22:55
One thing we've learned from this type of debate, if nothing else, is that it's utterly useless. Let the vegetarians be vegetarians in peace, and grant the meat eaters the same. End of story.

I don't agree with you here, Mr Mike :)

Why is it not possible to have a conversation on any one topic that we wish? We do this on every other subject on Avalon including satanism and jews and Zionism and magic and feminism, it's only fare to also be able to present an opinion which supports one's own feelings against what they see as anima'sl cruelty, and it's only fare to state that stopping eating meat is not a possibility for someone else. When someone express their desire to improve their communication skills, that's commandable and should not invite verbal shooting of past memory clashes, Are'nt there 'pro' and 'against' opinions with everything else, US civil war for example? some will support it some will protest it but whichever stand one takes, a dialog is needed, especially these days. Ideally we need to learn to converse about everything.

Non participation is also a valid option, so we can use it if we don't feel comfortable, by all means.

Everyone have the legitimacy to live their life the way they see fit, but when in conversation, respecting others sensitivites whichever 'side' they take, and really listening and reacting thoughtfully instead of being defensive then there's a real good chance for it to work.

End of story : )

DeDukshyn
15th January 2014, 23:38
I admit 100% Abahaya that vegetarians like you (and others on the forum) solidly push my buttons.
...

It wasn't long ago that Abhaya and Akasha pushed my buttons almost as bad as my ex-wife. Seriously - Akasha came extremely close to becoming the first person I have ever "ignored" (with the ignore button) ;). I was furious at a couple times, there was a lot of what I saw as baseless attacks on me, just for not being in 100% agreement with everything they said.

I felt I needed to address this issue, and I did. But I did it a little differently than my normal reactions would have had. I stayed fast and did not react in posts and/or PMs, did not judge, but kept my keel even, and explained my point of view, logic that supported it, and my choices. And said nothing much more than that on the specific topic. I now have 2 new "friends" and a lot less anxiety when getting into debates on the topic (and I still eat meat). I feel I passed a personal hurdle -- my reactions. And I like to think I actually helped in this process of these two becoming more reasonable and effective in their approach, of which the OP is addressing. :P

I see someone going out of their way - putting themselves out there to improve themselves and their relations and communications with others, and some not (which is fine). This is what I see in this thread - the rest is filler. Give it some thought Blufire.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


...
One thing we've learned from this type of debate, if nothing else, is that it's utterly useless. ....

It is not useless at all, but it contains some useless subjects and topics. I feel the moral or ethical question is one of those, but as far as I see there are still three very solid debates available for vegetarianism, if people can stick to the subjects that are actually have a EDIT[consistent platform for debating] ... further explained in post 67 here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?67095-Apology&p=784499&viewfull=1#post784499

Mike
16th January 2014, 03:19
All good points Limor!

I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, but perhaps it's best that it be discussed separately, as in one 'meat' thread and one 'veg' thread.

A debate, in my opinion, is useless. It's a bit like discussing religion. You are firmly entrenched in your view, and I in mine. There is nothing that either of us can say that will change the other's opinion. Nothing. Since ive been on Avalon, there have been many meat vs veg threads, and they've all unfolded in exactly the same manner. Feel free to discuss it, of course, but the predictability of the thread makes it sort of unneccesary, IMHO. A vegan or vegetarian will usually get it started, speaking of the health benefits of such a lifestyle. Some anecdotes will be shared, followed by what they feel are not only scientific and personal reasons to go veg, but also global. Animal cruelty will be evoked, moral high ground assumed, and slowly and assuredly a passive aggressive attack on meat eaters will evolve. A meat eater will intervene, inevitably, cite his or her own science, list various ecological and personal health reasons for meat eating, but it will all be in vain. While there will still be some reasonable veg folks, there will without doubt be 1 or 2 that take exception, 1 or 2 that are extremely offended, and the thread will gradually devolve from there. Then it will become your science vs mine, yada yada yada, name calling, yada, accusations of bigotry, yada yada yada, the dbate over plant sentience, yada yada etc and so forth. By all means, have the discussion, but I can assure you: the script has already been written;)

And here's the thing: I've never met a meat eater who had a moral objection to a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Not one. The only reason there's a debate at all is due to the judgement placed on meat eaters by vegetarians. And in assuming the moral highground, vegans and vegetarians have become impervious to opposing viewpoints and opinions. They've become bigoted. In other words: meat eaters aren't anti-vegetable. They simply want to eat other things with their vegetables. Vegetarians are anti-meat eating. They have an interest in what others are doing, while the meat eaters could care less. So in a sense, they are no different than one religion who feels they are morally superior to another, and at the end of the day, they want to *convert* you to their side. Meat eaters have no such interest - they just want to be left alone to enjoy their meal.

See?

I could list all the health reasons I eat meat here, but it would hardly matter, would it? It won't change anyone's opinion. If anything, it might agitate a few people and only instigate the repeating loop of insanity that this discussion always gives birth to. But as long as there are people condemning us, us meat eaters will be forced to defend ourselves. If Bluefire takes a certain tone in her posts, I can certainly understand that. She's likely tired of being lectured to, tired of the bad science, tired of being made to feel morally inferior etc.

I can sum up my opinion by saying that I respect everyone's right to make their own decision. I don't really need to discuss it further - it ends there for me. Most vegans and vegetarians can't make the same statement. And that explains that cracked record player in the sky, stuck on repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat...

DeDukshyn
16th January 2014, 04:13
All good points Limor!

I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, but perhaps it's best that it be discussed separately, as in one 'meat' thread and one 'veg' thread.

A debate, in my opinion, is useless. It's a bit like discussing religion. You are firmly entrenched in your view, and I in mine. There is nothing that either of us can say that will change the other's opinion. Nothing. Since ive been on Avalon, there have been many meat vs veg threads, and they've all unfolded in exactly the same manner. Feel free to discuss it, of course, but the predictability of the thread makes it sort of unneccesary, IMHO. A vegan or vegetarian will usually get it started, speaking of the health benefits of such a lifestyle. Some anecdotes will be shared, followed by what they feel are not only scientific and personal reasons to go veg, but also global. Animal cruelty will be evoked, moral high ground assumed, and slowly and assuredly a passive aggressive attack on meat eaters will evolve. A meat eater will intervene, inevitably, cite his or her own science, list various ecological and personal health reasons for meat eating, but it will all be in vain. While there will still be some reasonable veg folks, there will without doubt be 1 or 2 that take exception, 1 or 2 that are extremely offended, and the thread will gradually devolve from there. Then it will become your science vs mine, yada yada yada, name calling, yada, accusations of bigotry, yada yada yada, the dbate over plant sentience, yada yada etc and so forth. By all means, have the discussion, but I can assure you: the script has already been written;)

And here's the thing: I've never met a meat eater who had a moral objection to a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Not one. The only reason there's a debate at all is due to the judgement placed on meat eaters by vegetarians. And in assuming the moral highground, vegans and vegetarians have become impervious to opposing viewpoints and opinions. They've become bigoted. In other words: meat eaters aren't anti-vegetable. They simply want to eat other things with their vegetables. Vegetarians are anti-meat eating. They have an interest in what others are doing, while the meat eaters could care less. So in a sense, they are no different than one religion who feels they are morally superior to another, and at the end of the day, they want to *convert* you to their side. Meat eaters have no such interest - they just want to be left alone to enjoy their meal.

See?

I could list all the health reasons I eat meat here, but it would hardly matter, would it? It won't change anyone's opinion. If anything, it might agitate a few people and only instigate the repeating loop of insanity that this discussion always gives birth to. But as long as there are people condemning us, us meat eaters will be forced to defend ourselves. If Bluefire takes a certain tone in her posts, I can certainly understand that. She's likely tired of being lectured to, tired of the bad science, tired of being made to feel morally inferior etc.

I can sum up my opinion by saying that I respect everyone's right to make their own decision. I don't really need to discuss it further - it ends there for me. Most vegans and vegetarians can't make the same statement. And that explains that cracked record player in the sky, stuck on repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat...

Mike,

I find it interesting that this entire threads purpose as indicated in the OP is to challenge the exact viewpoint of what your thought (that extends to many) about vegans and vegetarians are ... there is a certain sentiment here on "repeat", "repeat", "repeat" but it is not the OP's

At the end of the day it is a choice -- this has been acknowledges like 20 times in this thread ... and it is also about global responsibility (IMHO), the choice here does have some impact on the globe -- this is what I believe get's under meat eaters skin --- they want that choice to be fully free -- but unfortunately these days the continued choices without larger reflection from a global standpoint, may indeed be self destructive ... This is the situation we are coming to face, if not right now, think in 50 years if things don't shift toward better sustainability ... you don't want that consideration ... you want choice. You have the choice, but you can also choose for you and/or for humanity. I come off preachy I know, but it is the reality. I don't care as much about peoples choices to eat meat as I care about their choices for sustainability, and at least a life devoid of suffering for feed animals if nothing else. Reducing meat consumption and buying meat locally if needed (hey I live in Canada - eating local in winter means some meat eating - not enough veggies - but again, I'm not a vegetarian) can provide that improved sustainability.

All that said, I stand by what I have said on the ethics issue -- it is a tricky one without interfering with peoples personal choices on the creation of their personal being and its perspective. That should be left alone IMHO.

Just a ramblin' some thoughts out ... ;) No offense intended.

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 04:26
Repeat, repeat, repeat...happens when new members who haven't been part of this particular discussion.

It's all part of the process.

Mike
16th January 2014, 04:49
All good points Limor!

I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, but perhaps it's best that it be discussed separately, as in one 'meat' thread and one 'veg' thread.

A debate, in my opinion, is useless. It's a bit like discussing religion. You are firmly entrenched in your view, and I in mine. There is nothing that either of us can say that will change the other's opinion. Nothing. Since ive been on Avalon, there have been many meat vs veg threads, and they've all unfolded in exactly the same manner. Feel free to discuss it, of course, but the predictability of the thread makes it sort of unneccesary, IMHO. A vegan or vegetarian will usually get it started, speaking of the health benefits of such a lifestyle. Some anecdotes will be shared, followed by what they feel are not only scientific and personal reasons to go veg, but also global. Animal cruelty will be evoked, moral high ground assumed, and slowly and assuredly a passive aggressive attack on meat eaters will evolve. A meat eater will intervene, inevitably, cite his or her own science, list various ecological and personal health reasons for meat eating, but it will all be in vain. While there will still be some reasonable veg folks, there will without doubt be 1 or 2 that take exception, 1 or 2 that are extremely offended, and the thread will gradually devolve from there. Then it will become your science vs mine, yada yada yada, name calling, yada, accusations of bigotry, yada yada yada, the dbate over plant sentience, yada yada etc and so forth. By all means, have the discussion, but I can assure you: the script has already been written;)

And here's the thing: I've never met a meat eater who had a moral objection to a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Not one. The only reason there's a debate at all is due to the judgement placed on meat eaters by vegetarians. And in assuming the moral highground, vegans and vegetarians have become impervious to opposing viewpoints and opinions. They've become bigoted. In other words: meat eaters aren't anti-vegetable. They simply want to eat other things with their vegetables. Vegetarians are anti-meat eating. They have an interest in what others are doing, while the meat eaters could care less. So in a sense, they are no different than one religion who feels they are morally superior to another, and at the end of the day, they want to *convert* you to their side. Meat eaters have no such interest - they just want to be left alone to enjoy their meal.

See?

I could list all the health reasons I eat meat here, but it would hardly matter, would it? It won't change anyone's opinion. If anything, it might agitate a few people and only instigate the repeating loop of insanity that this discussion always gives birth to. But as long as there are people condemning us, us meat eaters will be forced to defend ourselves. If Bluefire takes a certain tone in her posts, I can certainly understand that. She's likely tired of being lectured to, tired of the bad science, tired of being made to feel morally inferior etc.

I can sum up my opinion by saying that I respect everyone's right to make their own decision. I don't really need to discuss it further - it ends there for me. Most vegans and vegetarians can't make the same statement. And that explains that cracked record player in the sky, stuck on repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat...

Mike,

I find it interesting that this entire threads purpose as indicated in the OP is to challenge the exact viewpoint of what your thought (that extends to many) about vegans and vegetarians are ... there is a certain sentiment here on "repeat", "repeat", "repeat" but it is not the OP's

At the end of the day it is a choice -- this has been acknowledges like 20 times in this thread ... and it is also about global responsibility (IMHO), the choice here does have some impact on the globe -- this is what I believe get's under meat eaters skin --- they want that choice to be fully free -- but unfortunately these days the continued choices without larger reflection from a global standpoint, may indeed be self destructive ... This is the situation we are coming to face, if not right now, think in 50 years if things don't shift toward better sustainability ... you don't want that consideration ... you want choice. You have the choice, but you can also choose for you and/or for humanity. I come off preachy I know, but it is the reality. I don't care as much about peoples choices to eat meat as I care about their choices for sustainability, and at least a life devoid of suffering for feed animals if nothing else. Reducing meat consumption and buying meat locally if needed (hey I live in Canada - eating local in winter means some meat eating - not enough veggies - but again, I'm not a vegetarian) can provide that improved sustainability.

All that said, I stand by what I have said on the ethics issue -- it is a tricky one without interfering with peoples personal choices on the creation of their personal being and its perspective. That should be left alone IMHO.

Just a ramblin' some thoughts out ... ;) No offense intended.

No offense taken...and thanks for the intelligent response.

Its true that I am a bit jaded from this type of discussion. I stand by what I wrote, but perhaps i should have taken my own advice and started a new thread;)

I have nothing further to add. I humbly bow out.

Abhaya
16th January 2014, 05:38
Thanks to everyone who came to my defense and my apologies to blufire for not being more patient in my own replys. One of the major things I've learned from this thread is that there is no clear cut black and white answer. And that the "best" ethical ideal is always changing with the circumstances. If we go about it with this idea in mind that there is no prefect way and are always open to new dietary ideas that may be healthier for today's world, or effect out consciousness differently, or work better in certain areas of the world. Or what ever. Then we can Brian storm together and bring up interesting points on all sides of the ever shifting ground of dietary ethics. And it's less of a debate with people cheering for their respective sides logical arguments, and more of a philosophical discussion. Where no offense is needed.

Agape
16th January 2014, 11:06
Thanks to everyone who came to my defense and my apologies to blufire for not being more patient in my own replys. One of the major things I've learned from this thread is that there is no clear cut black and white answer. And that the "best" ethical ideal is always changing with the circumstances. If we go about it with this idea in mind that there is no prefect way and are always open to new dietary ideas that may be healthier for today's world, or effect out consciousness differently, or work better in certain areas of the world. Or what ever. Then we can Brian storm together and bring up interesting points on all sides of the ever shifting ground of dietary ethics. And it's less of a debate with people cheering for their respective sides logical arguments, and more of a philosophical discussion. Where no offense is needed.



Abhaya ... be fearless ;) Thank you very much for opening this debate again.. because we have chance to realise a little bit more about the subject each time it's closed and opened .

Here, I'd like to add for everyone participating .. that I consider it largely 'academical debate' . The truth ( and real polemics ) comes with experience , rather than talk .

Abhaya.. perhaps you have one or two friends ( sure more ) who still eat meat but who have some other excellent human qualities you admire, even spiritual qualities unique to no one else , those who really do not care about 'their food' as much as everyones else's food, good and virtues .
Those who don't seek apologies.. are maybe the only few who deserve them .

For the omnivore - meat eaters group... I'd ask the same question .. do you have at least one or two ( hope more depending on where you live ) friends who aren't meet eaters and whose excellent human qualities you respect and admire ( please , NOT for the fact what they eat or not !!! ;) ) ?


The problem is ..with many people living closed in their own closed cultural habitats for generations is that they really DON't HAVE the experience , that's why and how this debate becomes academical and void of essence .

In millions of traditional Indian families, meat was not eaten for generations and generations. The same people showed excellent health, strength and intelligence and were considered 'milk & cream' of the society and are till today, even more ..
as the same society is flooded by western influenced food and consumption market .

Their ancestors lived the same way for hundreds of generations and did not consider the need to convert to meat eating . We are speaking about more than half billion people , not few isolated sects .

Similarly, looking to our 'wild west' there are very few people in Europe who were traditionally vegetarian ( for other than dietary reasons ), with exception of few mystics ..the society had zero experience of what is to be 'healthy and vegetarian' .

The times have changed ... but there is still difference between your cultural habits and claiming ''we are naturally omnivores'' or 'we are naturally veggies'' unless you've really tried to contemplate and live the experience of being it ,
rather than attacking others views .

It would harm no one , the so called 'omnivores' if they could stick to 'no animal products' diet for a month in a year .. and see, feel , experience the change .

It's an experience and the change is more pronounced, more palpable than countless other 'spiritual exercises' and meditations, and jogging , and else . It's an experience of consciousness .

It can not harm you and it's worth the trial .


Likewise , it's an experience for born and grown up vegetarian to 'taste meat' , in any form, acknowledge the fact of ingesting 'alien life form ' and accepting the force that comes from another living being.

If you do it every day, your senses and awareness are not that sharp anymore . For anything different, you really have to try .


My best wishes with trying first ..then talking


:angel:

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 16:06
Agape,

You appear to be making the assumption that people who currently have meat as part of their diet do so only because they haven't tried to go vegan.

This is a false presumtion.

These presumptions get under peoples skin and is a major contributing factor to the dysfunctional dialog.

DeDukshyn
16th January 2014, 16:27
Agape,

You appear to be making the assumption that people who currently have meat as part of their diet do so only because they haven't tried to go vegan.

This is a false presumtion.

These presumptions get under peoples skin and is a major contributing factor to the dysfunctional dialog.

I didn't get that from her post 13th, How I read it, was that if a person has only tried one of the lifestyles (in her example, meat eating) then we have nothing to compare, and therefore a smaller perspective, and that broadening that perspective, may well come with a desire for the new lifestyle choice; it might not, but no one knows that until they try. The presumption I saw in her post was the one that a person who has only ever tried one eating format, has a smaller perspective on the topic - and this is of course logically true.

Robin
16th January 2014, 16:39
I find it amusing and somewhat disconcerting that this thread has completely deviated from Abahya's original post, in which he gave a sincere apology for his discourse in such debates! ;)

Yes, this debate is never-ending, but it is nonetheless crucial for the future of humanity. Indeed, one of the biggest issues on Avalon is that these debates have taken place many many times before, way before I have joined. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but there is due cause to suggest that it is because of the both the differing temperments and differing schedules of Avalon's members.

I have noticed that there are some who have not been exposed to the debates on Avalon before, and there are others who simply do not have the time to browse Avalon every day. Because of this, the same debates occur over and over again because of a lack of communication.

Of course, I understand why many people are busy and do not have time to monitor every debate that occurs on Avalon, and of course I understand new members wanting to join in, too. But I still contend that these debates would be so much more efficient, flowing, and healthy if members do their best to take the time to read the OP as well as the entire thread before delving in. How can one justify giving an argument based on accusations and grievances if they do not monitor a thread in whole, developing a feel for the individual members' temperments and arguments?

I consider myself to be somehwat of a peace-keeper and I do my best to ensure positive discourse between people, no matter the differences. Some of my arguments do come across as terse, but I still do my best to show that I understand the other arguments.

As I've mentioned several times in this thread, I think that some things are inevitable in the future of humanity. We need to start thinking for the future and the collective: our children and our children's children. We can no longer afford living in a society based solely off of competition, extreme individuality, and temporary pleasures guided by short-term satisfaction.

This is why I think my arguments for this debate on my thread Choosing our conscious evolutionary path--a possible future for humanity? may provide a good segway between an understanding and acceptance of the arguments from both sides. I believe my arguments in this thread to be new to the debate, and I encourage anybody interested in this to give their opinion on the matter. Even if you disagree with my arguments, your opinions are warmly welcomed, because not all debates are an evil.

Thanks once again for such an intelligent, open-minded, and warm atmosphere here on Avalon, friends.

Peace
Sam

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 17:03
Dedukshyn,

Thanks for your interpretation.

I used the word "appears"

If my initial reaction is contrary to Agape's intended message; my dialogue sets the stage for Agape to respond to clarify.

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 17:26
Sam,

Abhaya has expressed his/hers satisfaction with the direction this thread has taken.

Agape
16th January 2014, 20:44
Agape,

You appear to be making the assumption that people who currently have meat as part of their diet do so only because they haven't tried to go vegan.

This is a false presumtion.

These presumptions get under peoples skin and is a major contributing factor to the dysfunctional dialog.

No , and you appear the miss the whole context of my posting and the thread , altogether ..
and I'm not advising anyone 'to go anything' , advising to get an experience yes . If you do have such an experience please feel most welcome to share .. whatever you have to say,
and how your experience of being who-you-choose-to-be affects you . I don't think that people come here to have arguments here or do they.


:yo:

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 21:06
It would harm no one , the so called 'omnivores' if they could stick to 'no animal products' diet for a month in a year .. and see, feel , experience the change . 

It's an experience and the change is more pronounced, more palpable than countless other 'spiritual exercises' and meditations, and jogging , and else . It's an experience of consciousness . 

It can not harm you and it's worth the trial .


Likewise , it's an experience for born and grown up vegetarian to 'taste meat' , in any form, acknowledge the fact of ingesting 'alien life form ' and accepting the force that comes from another living being. 

If you do it every day, your senses and awareness are not that sharp anymore . For anything different, you really have to try . 


My best wishes with trying first ..then talking



I have tried a vegan diet; several times never once did I feel anything close to a higher spiritual vibration...

DeDukshyn
16th January 2014, 23:26
It would harm no one , the so called 'omnivores' if they could stick to 'no animal products' diet for a month in a year .. and see, feel , experience the change . 

It's an experience and the change is more pronounced, more palpable than countless other 'spiritual exercises' and meditations, and jogging , and else . It's an experience of consciousness . 

It can not harm you and it's worth the trial .


Likewise , it's an experience for born and grown up vegetarian to 'taste meat' , in any form, acknowledge the fact of ingesting 'alien life form ' and accepting the force that comes from another living being. 

If you do it every day, your senses and awareness are not that sharp anymore . For anything different, you really have to try . 


My best wishes with trying first ..then talking



I have tried a vegan diet; several times never once did I feel anything close to a higher spiritual vibration...

Thanks for your input. ;)

DeDukshyn
16th January 2014, 23:29
Dedukshyn,

Thanks for your interpretation.

I used the word "appears"

If my initial reaction is contrary to Agape's intended message; my dialogue sets the stage for Agape to respond to clarify.

You dissolved the variability that the word "appears" would have provided, with this statement: "This is a false presumtion. These presumptions get under peoples skin and is a major contributing factor to the dysfunctional dialog. "


I am picking on you a little because you are holding everyone to the technicalities of their words here, I am just doing the same :P :P No harm intended.

13th Warrior
16th January 2014, 23:37
Yes, fair enough.

Perhaps I should have just stuck to my first statement...the other two are judgemental.

I do have some difficulty following Agape's broken English.

Poly Hedra
17th January 2014, 01:00
I would hazard a conclusion I have come to from reading this thread, being a vegetarian is like being a religious zealot for some people, almost like an evangelical vegetarian, preaching the gospel according to vegetarians.
When it all comes down to the basics of it ; nobody is ever ever going to listen to what the other person has to say when the other person is telling them that they have found 'the way, seen the light' 'come learn what I have learned'. Because we all have our path, regardless if we eat dogs, snakes, kangaroos or crickets. Each to their own, no argument whatsoever. Simple.
I have also seen a good few threads on this subject including one I inadvertently created when I wanted to discuss the origin of the statement being that pork is dirty. These threads always descend into chaos and heightened emotions, why? I think its because its a personal choice and when a personal choice is being questioned the actual person is questioned, who they are. It will never be black and white, cut and dry, because people are not that way. Respect. Nuff said!

Agape
17th January 2014, 01:36
I have tried a vegan diet; several times never once did I feel anything close to a higher spiritual vibration...

Fair enough .

Vis your further post .. kindly stop with the insults . I've not noticed your version of English would be particularly well brushed, and polite .

You're filling this thread with attacks so far . Wish you can reflect on this and stop.

Thanks for consideration

:angel:


Your contribution to this thread so far 13th Warrior


Akasha,

I cannot intellectually square the philosophical beliefs of vegans and the preparation of vegan meals that emulate meat dishes...

Akasha,

My intellect tells me that the plant kingdom is just as valuable to me as the animal kingdom. I don't consider plants to be less sentient.

Abhaya,

You say it's a matter of taste (nothing could be more suggestive).
Choice of taste seems to be a direct contradiction to the vegan philosophy.


Samwise,

You bring up one of the major tenants of the vegan philosophy.

Wouldn't plants having a higher vibration make them more sentient?

This would also appear to be a direct contradiction to the philosophy.


Yes, I value fruit.


Are eggs sentient?


Assume the the eggs are fertilized; since fruit cannot be formed unless fertilised.


Is the egg sentient when it's departed it's bearer?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I understand your hesitancy to answer; it's not so clear cut is it?


Samwise,

I see you've identified a chemical means of communication.

The human body communicates via chemicals.


I say every living thing desires to stay alive and is driven to continue the species through procreation.


Arguing accomplishes nothing; I am asking pointed questions designed to make you think more deeply about your sacred cows beliefs (pun intended)

What if you found out that plant also communicate through electrical impulses?



My main point is that i'm challenging your belief/justification for eating plants on your preconceived notion that they are not sentient.

Sentient=aware

In order for plants to produce fruit there blossoms have to be cross pollinated/fertilized. This is commonly done by bees. The plant will detect a bee in it's proximity and send an electrical signal to the bee guiding it to the flower. Plants also send out signals to near by plants warning that it is under attack...this type of activity tells me that plants are sentient/aware.


Ethics is how one behaves when no one is looking...

Ethics also are a product of social norms...problems arise when one tries to force ones ethics upon another...especially when the other finds the basis for these forced ethics seem to be founded upon false pretexts.

I don't always agree with but, I do appreciate Blufire's furvour; she is a real salt of the earth individual. She walks the walk...

I see nothing wrong with a vegan diet but, it's not a magic bullet and it doesn't automatically make you a healthy; enlightened; higher vibrating; more ethical person...

Any diet that's unbalanced is unhealthy and leads to unbalanced/irrational behavior.

Who, what, when, were and weather needs to be considered when choosing what you eat.

I'll use myself as an example: My natural condition is to be yin full. I live in a northern climate where the current weather is cold. Cold temps have a yin effect on the body. I need to balance these fixed conditions by eating yang type foods.

I do see many vegans who consume too many raw vegetables; this can cause the holier than thou attitude. If you find yourself in this condition; you need to add more grounding foods to your diet.


Milneman,

Allow me to illustrate ethic/culture/social norms:

There are groups in Asia where it's accepted practise to eat dogs.

That same behavior in the US is liable to get you put in jail for animal abuse.


Repeat, repeat, repeat...happens when new members who haven't been part of this particular discussion.

It's all part of the process.


Agape,

You appear to be making the assumption that people who currently have meat as part of their diet do so only because they haven't tried to go vegan.

This is a false presumtion.

These presumptions get under peoples skin and is a major contributing factor to the dysfunctional dialog.


Dedukshyn,

Thanks for your interpretation.

I used the word "appears"

If my initial reaction is contrary to Agape's intended message; my dialogue sets the stage for Agape to respond to clarify.

Sam,

Abhaya has expressed his/hers satisfaction with the direction this thread has taken.


Yes, fair enough.

Perhaps I should have just stuck to my first statement...the other two are judgemental.

I do have some difficulty following Agape's broken English.


Do you kindly presume that we are all idiots not to be able to read you ? I've not noticed you'd expect intelligent discussion or answers other than fit your own understanding .

It's like hoping that no better views exist . Sorry for that comment.

Snowflower
17th January 2014, 01:56
About debate, and whether or not new debate on similar subjects has a place here. What is the purpose of discussion (changing word from "debate.") To share, to learn, to consider new ideas. To perhaps change perspective, perhaps not. Generally this happens through the active process of interacting, not through reading old threads. Rules, procedures, etc. - those should be read from old threads and not repeated, but the purpose of this thread and others oft repeated is not the transfer of an already determined outcome, but the continued interaction between forum members.

About the topic. I live at 8000 ft. Elevation in the Rockies. Large scale agriculture is impossible in these ROCKY mountains. Cold climate makes long growing seasons impossible. I can't eat Pine trees. But my goats can eat Pine trees and I can eat the goats. For me - it's very simple. South Pacific Islanders can be vegans (although it's likely they eat fish) but to survive here, one MUST be a meat eater. Needs must.

DeDukshyn
17th January 2014, 02:17
About debate, and whether or not new debate on similar subjects has a place here. What is the purpose of discussion (changing word from "debate.") To share, to learn, to consider new ideas. To perhaps change perspective, perhaps not. Generally this happens through the active process of interacting, not through reading old threads. Rules, procedures, etc. - those should be read from old threads and not repeated, but the purpose of this thread and others oft repeated is not the transfer of an already determined outcome, but the continued interaction between forum members.

About the topic. I live at 8000 ft. Elevation in the Rockies. Large scale agriculture is impossible in these ROCKY mountains. Cold climate makes long growing seasons impossible. I can't eat Pine trees. But my goats can eat Pine trees and I can eat the goats. For me - it's very simple. South Pacific Islanders can be vegans (although it's likely they eat fish) but to survive here, one MUST be a meat eater. Needs must.

I have the same issue, I want to get off the grid and not eat as much meat, but the logistics don't work well in Canadian winters. One can cellar some vegetables; carrots, potatoes and turnips keep quite well - but not a whole winter (generally Canadians (except those west coasters) can count on 5 months of "winter") and there's always canning - which helps. But we only have a short season enough to grow one crop of stuff, it gets pretty darn tricky to not eat meat.

That said, if I do get off the grid, If needed, I will be either raising/catching (likely revert to fishing) my own meat, or finding a friend that does that we can trade with. That would be ok with me, I don't really have an issue with people processing their own meat for consumption, or sticking with a small local farm where you can see how the animals are raised, and have frank discussions with the farmer about it. Sometimes it is still necessary, and this is by a long shot the best way to do it responsibly, IMHO.

13th Warrior
17th January 2014, 03:18
Agape,

I haven't attacked you or anyone else in this thread.

161803398
17th January 2014, 03:56
I don't understand why people get upset when other people get emotional about subjects they care about. I think we should be happy that people show emotion...I mean, aren't we also worried about the computer taking us over. Not everyone is a lawyer or a psychopathic banker. We should really just learn how to handle it.

And isn't everyone asking themselves why the French can dump a load of **** in front of their National Assembly and why people in North America do practically nothing in the face of abuse?

Which way do we want it?

Its like that joke about the crabs pulling each other back in the tanks.

Abhaya
17th January 2014, 04:41
I brought up this question on SAMs thread but I think it got missed. I thought I would try it again here. I poise this question simply for philosophical discussion and welcome all opinions. Where do you personally draw the line on what's not ok to eat. I think it's safe to say that we could eventually arrive at a diet that 99% of the population would see as crossing the line. For instance if a group of people wanted to wipe out one endangered species after another in giant feasts. Soley fueled by taste and thrill, and not by any means for survival. Then it would almost be taken as fact, in today's society, that this is wrong. So is there a line? It's certainly very grey if there is one. Maybe I could also ask why do u choose to be vegetarian. Or why do u choose what ever other diet u may have. Not looking for preachy answers just your experiance so that others can maybe learn from it.

Here is one reason I am vegetarian. It feels to me like I am doing something more compassionate. And I feel good and clean as a result. I'm sure there is much flaw in this perhaps but this is just one real honest reason I do it. Also I have lived in close quarters with many food animals and feel that I could never kill them on my own. So therefor don't have a right to eat the meat that was killed by someone else. Also I am very into raw cleanse diets and this has further fueled my vegetarianism.

As for the line if it exists I would say it varies person to person. And is effected by whatever circumstance mentally/physically/spiritually, a person is in. And how compassionately they can reasonably be expected to behave in said circumstance. The goal being to live as compassionately as possible

161803398
17th January 2014, 06:45
I think many people would draw the line on slaughterhouses.

First I stopped eating lamb because the mother sheep at my house in Ireland knew I was eating it. Then I stopped eating pigs because I like pigs. Then I stopped eating meat because I saw a slaughterhouse video and became sick for several months as a result. Over time I became unable to eat any animal product except butter.

giovonni
17th January 2014, 07:00
i will share this here... it comes via a young friend who's life experience speaks well into the depths of this threads ongoing dialogue ... here is my personal response to her video post


thanks Ms B ...
Good stuff ... note i truly feel what your saying here ... i recently viewed Paul McCartney's "Glass Walls" peta video and its impact finally stirred my soul :(
Blessings Gio

My dietary transition from a meat based diet to a plant based diet

Published on Jan 11, 2014


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFayvkkRTco&feature=c4-overview&list=UUooLch-F4HJP3f9quO2WGVw

Akasha
17th January 2014, 10:03
....I have tried a vegan diet; several times never once did I feel anything close to a higher spiritual vibration....

I would cautiously venture to say that that higher vibration which is often mentioned in this kind of discourse refers to that which is transmitted rather than that which is received.

To all those that would dispute the above statement by quoting many of my "transmissions", you should have heard me before I changed my diet :o.

blufire
17th January 2014, 14:18
I will make this post short and sweet. I took a significant amount of time to make well thought out posts on this thread and as usual small portions are taken out of context.

It is apparent that several must have a heyday in the ‘back channels’ and pm’s psychoanalyzing me and who you want me and need me to be.

Abayaha, your apology (for me) has come too quickly after Akasha’s “I’m a Judgmental Vegan Bitch” thread:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66575-I-m-a-Judgemental-Vegan---&highlight=judgemental+vegan

Of which I participated in because of the outright absurdity and that it was so profoundly insulting to omnivores.

And the fact that you originally posted this offensive video on this thread of yours:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62855-Does-Our-Treatment-of-Animals-Affect-How-We-Treat-Each-Other/page5

Of which I did not participate in at all because I wanted to give you and other vegans/vegetarians that space and respect to voice your point of view.

For me your apology is hollow. I accept your apology from the place that you are troubled because of the anger and hurt you have caused because of your point of view and personal decision in how you live your life and your diet lifestyle.

Sincere apologies come with repair, understanding of what caused the hurt for which you are apologizing and a resolve to no longer (best as a human can) repeat the same offense. So I will wait to see where you go from here.

I will not post in any omnivore hating and prejudiced threads again.

I think Chinaski has a great idea in starting an omnivore thread. Perhaps I will. Not in retaliation or as opposition to vegans and vegetarians because I support and respect that personal decision and diet, but because I think it is time that it is understood that the omnivore diet is natural for humans and it is not a ‘lifestyle choice’ and that it just so happens that meat is a very small part of this diverse and well balanced holistic diet.

Jeffrey
17th January 2014, 15:26
In my experience, forgiveness does not depend on the presence of an apology, much less how one is structured.

I have found that when I hold someone in offense, it is me that is keeping them there. Releasing that energy has much more to do with myself than it does with anything else.

Conflict arises when equal and opposite forces meet. These reactionary mechanisms have created locks for me in the past. There is no conflict unless I meet that force with it's counter force.

What I'm trying to learn is how to use the momentum of what is coming at me and redirect it. This way I can dance much more than I fight.

This allows harmony to operate in a space where there is potential for conflict. It keeps things light, while binding things makes them heavier than they need to be.


This is forgiveness in action -- not holding on to, and thereby struggling with, an energy that needs expression.

In this way I help to create movement by allowing energies to flow instead of creating locks. I want to break chains, not make them.

We are a team here! :)

DeDukshyn
17th January 2014, 16:09
Well said Jeffrey! Double thanks! :)

161803398
17th January 2014, 21:37
Quote Posted by 13th Warrior (here)
....I have tried a vegan diet; several times never once did I feel anything close to a higher spiritual vibration....

Maybe you have a high vibration anyway. I think it might work best with those big beefy red faced trucker types, only because I saw a documentary about it once. The only part I remember was that one guy who was so rough and seemingly not very intelligent. They put him on vegan diet and then showed what happened to him after a few months. I couldn't believe it...he was much thinner of course and actually attractive. He'd started meditating as well and his body language and speech were completely changed.

161803398
17th January 2014, 21:55
....and oh oh....I forgot about this one...it was my personal experience...I had a client who was...well, very forceful and loud....he had been in the administration of a POW camp in Bosnia. When he wasn't mad you'd want to run from the room anyway when he was talking about certain subjects. The Judge thought he was angry and sent him to anger management. The anger management lady came to court and said he wasn't angry. Well, among other things, I tried the experiment of taking him to a vegan restaurant. His son was with us...they were fighting all the time. We ate and left. There was complete silence in the car....unimaginable. His son said he'd never seen him like that before. No ranting...nothing. Just peace and quiet. I think the food must have lowered his blood pressure.

13th Warrior
17th January 2014, 22:04
I mentioned this earlier in this thread that an unbalanced diet leads to irrational behavior.

Abhaya
19th January 2014, 13:32
I will make this post short and sweet. I took a significant amount of time to make well thought out posts on this thread and as usual small portions are taken out of context.

It is apparent that several must have a heyday in the ‘back channels’ and pm’s psychoanalyzing me and who you want me and need me to be.

Abayaha, your apology (for me) has come too quickly after Akasha’s “I’m a Judgmental Vegan Bitch” thread:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66575-I-m-a-Judgemental-Vegan---&highlight=judgemental+vegan

Of which I participated in because of the outright absurdity and that it was so profoundly insulting to omnivores.

And the fact that you originally posted this offensive video on this thread of yours:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62855-Does-Our-Treatment-of-Animals-Affect-How-We-Treat-Each-Other/page5

Of which I did not participate in at all because I wanted to give you and other vegans/vegetarians that space and respect to voice your point of view.

For me your apology is hollow. I accept your apology from the place that you are troubled because of the anger and hurt you have caused because of your point of view and personal decision in how you live your life and your diet lifestyle.

Sincere apologies come with repair, understanding of what caused the hurt for which you are apologizing and a resolve to no longer (best as a human can) repeat the same offense. So I will wait to see where you go from here.

I will not post in any omnivore hating and prejudiced threads again.

I think Chinaski has a great idea in starting an omnivore thread. Perhaps I will. Not in retaliation or as opposition to vegans and vegetarians because I support and respect that personal decision and diet, but because I think it is time that it is understood that the omnivore diet is natural for humans and it is not a ‘lifestyle choice’ and that it just so happens that meat is a very small part of this diverse and well balanced holistic diet.

Fair enough. Wish me luck in living up to my communication goals. And u can maybe forgive me down the road as u see fit. Or not. No hard feelings either way. Wish u the best as well.