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Pilote Tempête
12th May 2014, 06:25
From http://unconventional-wisdom.info/Page_2.html:

Extra dimensions would be describing a space invisible to us which would be totally in the imagination as it would be completely undefined and there would be no explanation of how it could exist and extra dimensions have no names and no quantities. As well, there are serious contradictions in descriptions of extra dimensions as they are said to be small (they have size, therefore volume, therefore 3 dimensions), are extended (have length), and are curled up (have shape, i.e., 3 dimensions). Spatial dimensions are measures of space so they cannot themselves have size nor shape and can't have anything in them, no more than length, height, and width. Or hyperspace would be a parallel universe or parallel universes which would themselves have 3 spatial dimensions each. Since physicists state there are 10 or 23 of these extra spatial dimensions they are not speaking of parallel universes because they would have to be a cluster of these universes to make up the total, so they, the spatial dimensions, would be in multiples of 3, which doesn't add up to 10, 11, nor 23. Also, such clustering is not postulated in any model of parallel universes. And physicists and cosmologists consider extra dimensions and parallel universes to be separate issues, which they are. (Kaku confuses dimensions with parallel universes on p. 22 of Hyperspace, refering to Riemann and Riemann never even mentioned parallel universes and his theory had nothing to do with them; Clifford Pickover does the same with his book Surfing Hyperspace: Undersatnding Higher Universes in 6 Easy Lessons, which is appropriately structured as fiction).

There are 14 types or meanings of dimensions in math (the size of a matrix, the number of elements in a basis in a vector space, of Hilbert space, of algebraic variety, and a manifold, simplex (Lesbegue or topological), Krull, Hausdorff, Hamel, box-counting, fractal, and inductive dimension, the power of a physical quantity (such as length, time or mass), and spatial dimension) and only 1 refers to physical space (the last one), so we shouldn't be confusing them either--what we are talking about are physical spatial dimensions only. Most spaces in math are abstract, not physical; physical space is also the domain of physics.

Some confuse spatial dimensions with directions and axes, but they are neither directions nor axes--and a figure with 4 or more axes is still in 3-D. The so-called hyperspaces in "multidimensional" geometry are really in 2- or 3-D, including the hypercube-tessaract, which is just a combination of 2 cubes which can be folded out into a cruciate configuration of 8 cubes, all in 3-D, and the Coxeter graphs. A hypercube is actually 2 cubes with their corners connected by lines forming a parallelogram, and the tessaract is actually a cube within a cube, with lines connecting their corners. And an ant on a cylinder, used as an example of extra dimensions by Green in The Elegant Universe, is also in 3-D.

As well, hyperspace would encompass normal space, just as 3-D space encompasses 2-D space, so if hyperspace existed it wouldn't be small nor curled up and we would be able to see it. The reason that we can't see it is because our bodies (or any biological beings) can't exist in more than 3D any more than they can in less than 3D, not because, as some argue, we can't visualize them in our minds. In other words, the reason we can't see them is because they don't exist. Put another way, what scientists speak of when they talk about hyperspace and extra dimensions is contrary to nature and reality and makes no sense whatsoever. (Philosopher A.N. Whitehead rightly refered to the 5th dimension as fiction (Singh, Great Ideas in Modern Mathematics, 1959, p. 302, Dover)). Also, some, e.g. Martin Grumiller of the Vienna University of Technology's Institue of Theoretical Physics, postulate a 2-D Universe (length and width) according to the holographic model of the Universe (Science Daily. 2009. How Many Dimensions in the Holographic Universe? sciencedaily.com). In the over 150 years since the idea of extra dimensions was introduced by Riemann in his Uber die Hypothesen welche der Geometrie zu Grunde liegen (On the Hypotheses Which Lie at the Foundation of Geometry) in 1854 there has never been any experimental nor observational evidence for them whatsoever.

There are certain anomalies in networked machines known to most electrical engineers which, according to Gabriel Kron, who did work on the torsion field using tensor analysis (developed by Gregorio Ricci-Curbastro c. 1890, and known then as tensor calculus, as a generalization or extension of vector analysis and deals with vector and scalar relations and coordinate systems)(Penguin Dictionary of Mathematics; Britannica On-Line, Wikipedia) in the 1930s, can be explained only by extra dimensions (Joseph Farrell, Secrets of the Unified Field, 2008, Adventures Unlimited). However, a tensor is an abstract geometric entity and its space is abstract so its dimensions are not physical (Penguin Dictionary of Mathematics; Britannica On-Line, Wikipedia), so Kron's higher dimensions actually refer to abstract mathematical space, not physical space. In other words, Farrell, and others apparently, confuse abstract space with physical space.

yelik
12th May 2014, 12:50
Hi
I do not disagree with your logic, but, in the words of Eistein

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution."

Carmody
12th May 2014, 13:18
As well, the vector analysis (Kron's math, etc) describes the potential for interaction/reaction/etc, in the physical space, in time, in relation to time.

So it's not abstract vs real. It's real vs finding an avenue in the math to describe the interactive into a space and place we cannot easily define in the human mind. To create a relational parameter for transference of ideas..in a thing which cannot be idealized in this space, as components of it are not real in this space. Not yet, anyway. We're dealing with reflection/fold-back.... into our 'reality'.

Basically, philosophical mathematics as a true and real formative descriptor/interactive, which is bit of a problem for some....

Think of higher dimensions being composed of frequential/geometric/angular-vectoral relational patterning, with regard to their interactive in this 'space'.

The complexity and reach of our pattern analysis is neither deep enough, complex enough, nor targeted properly enough to get to an initial point of grasp, in order to get to the initial point of idealization of the components, in human relational terms.

At least with respect to science.

Humans can 'get it' - just fine. Which is why you have situations like the CIA hanging around with the Dali Lama. It's not just the politics.

It requires a duality of analysis, in logic and intuitive, as a single grouped system. An actual whole and holistic approach.

Currently, science is of only one half of the human mind (linear logic only), and will forever struggle to grasp it, without getting there.

Logic is the child of mind, the child of awareness, the child of consciousness. If it wishes to reach for the stars, so to speak, it will have to re-own and re-integrate it's origins. It must have the ladder and frameworks required to make the reach - and right now, it does not.

Hervé
12th May 2014, 14:01
Good ole' "space"...


Dimensions... dimensions... no matter where around I look at, there are only three of them:
Length

Width

Height

That's it and that's that!

Why?

Simply because any universe that's built to maneuver objects around, shares "space" as a common ground and any space -- no matter where -- can be reduced to three dimensions only.

Time is only a factor that measures a rate of motion or re-arrangements of objects within a space and therefore is subsequent and subject to these three dimensions of that space. Conversely, if in that space there are no motions of any kind, no decays, growths nor changes; then, in such a space, there is no time. In other words, time is "frozen."

When one uses stereoscopic devices (eg. glasses to "see" movies in 3D), superimposing two pictures taken from slightly different angles, one reconstructs a 3D picture in one's mind. Yet, in the real 3D world, one is only looking at two flat pictures or plane geometric figures. The reconstructed object exists in one's mind. Hence, one could conclude that one's mind is a separate universe base on space and which is governed by its inherent 3 dimensions.

This introduces the concept of different universes.

However, when these different universes are based on the existence of a space where objects can be seen and manipulated, then, again, such a universe reduces to 3 dimensions.

Therefore, rather than "dimensions" or even "densities" or "frequencies"; "universes" better fit the different point of views as to anything that's "out of this world."

Another tack on this concept is that, in order for different universes to interact with each others, they must share -- as a prerequisite -- the same common ground/building bloc/element. The corollary being that, if universes do not share anything in common, they cannot possibly interact with each other. In other words, there is nothing to lock in/on for these different universes to interact with or perceive each others.

Hervé
12th May 2014, 14:13
As for "logic and "mind's child":


Just considering the variety of interpretations given to the fauna, flora and objects encountered in those other states/dimensions/densities...

... you know... ETs, Archons, Djinns, Demons, Tulpas, thought forms, eggregores, Golems, holographic recordings of times past/present/future, hypnotic hallucinations/delusions...

... and the "natural"/programmed inclination is to resort to the "knowledgeable ones"... you know... high priests, gurus, geeks, shamans, sorcerers, medicine wo/men, experts (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?69970-The-Expert-how-an-engineer-fits-in-the-corporate-world&p=816217&viewfull=1#post816217)... all under the influence of "human emotions," as depicted by Greek and other mythologies, or, of more or less mischievous "spirits" having their fun with the "incarnated ones"...

... and one may be able to see why "science" was bound to develop as a means of investigation independent from that "spirit" box where everything is possible on a whim... so that some may be able to "think" outside that box.

There is an entrance/exchange point/means though, and the analogy to radio waves is more than apt since that entrance/exchange point/means is by way of electromagnetism:


[...]

... Before we began, he placed some yogurt into a sterilized test tube, inserted two gold electrodes, and turned on the recording chart. I was excited, yet dubious. We began to talk, and the pen wriggled up and down. Then, just as I took in my breath prior to disagreeing with something he’d said, the pen seemed to lurch. But did it really jump, or was I only seeing what I wanted to see?

At one point, while Backster was out of the room, I tried to muster up some anger by thinking of clear-cut forests and the politicians who sanction them, of abused children and their abusers. But the line depicting the electrochemical response of the yogurt remained perfectly flat. Perhaps the yogurt wasn’t interested in me. Losing interest myself, I began to wander around the lab. My eyes fell on a calendar, which, upon closer inspection, turned out to be an advertisement for a shipping company. I felt a sudden surge of anger at the ubiquity of advertising. Then I realized — a spontaneous emotion! I dashed over to the chart, and saw on it a sudden spike apparently corresponding to the moment I'd seen the ad.

When Backster returned, I continued the interview, still excited, and perhaps a little less skeptical."

Now go to the link to read the interview:

http://thesunmagazine.org/archives/1882

If a yoghourt can distinguish/discern and "tell" what's fake or what's "real" and the "telling" can be translated via electromagnetic means...

... it becomes understandable that it's child play for ETs to put up and show one's memories -- short or long, very long -- on a video screen, etc...

Also, if a yoghourt can do it, it becomes possible for "anything" to accurately identify psychopaths... which might be the real reason why "lie detectors" outputs and interpretations are not admissible in courts...

However, things could get complicated if said yoghourt, on the witness-stand, gets "possessed"/influenced by some entity/spirit passing by... or a cell phone tower or any other electromagnetic influence...

What it boils down to, is that there is a 3D wooff and warp of interconnections underlying this whole universe and it's variously labelled as "life," "source," "ether," "morphogenic field," "holographic universe," "source field," etc...


Posted on April 4, 2014 (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/scientology-and-presentiment/) by martyrathbun09 (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/author/martyrathbun09/)
More than thirty years of research has demonstrated rather conclusively that the average human being when connected to a galvanic skin response detection device (generic name for a Hubbard Electro-psychometer) routinely registers presentiment of about five seconds. That is, the meter reads on average 5 second prior to the subject being provided with a concept to respond to. This research has been performed on people taken off the street, with no previous psychic or spiritual training or study. It has been conducted applying exacting scientific standards.Anyway... a big drum of worms, ain't it!

eb219
12th May 2014, 15:00
Just an observation on your first sentence, "Extra dimensions would be describing a space invisible to us which would be totally in the imagination..."

From a human standpoint, the imagination is simply Mind - the All is Mind, the universe is mental. However, it may be the concept of defining space which obscures the view, and hence thoughts which derive from that concept - where anything which does not exist in the physical third dimension is precluded as not having existence due to invisibility.

I see Carmody's mention of 'frequential/geometric/angular-vectoral relational patterning' as the response I was going to give - and that the human inability to define, name, or quantify does not preclude the existence of other integral parts of the All; just as the unconscious Mind connects all Beings, but scientific instruments cannot provide empirical explanation. If our human instruments did not have a 'reducing valve' (Huxley) to attenuate us into a default set of EM frequencies, we would otherwise be unable to sustain functional focus and live/work/survive in the third dimension. The meditative, shamanic, or entheogenic experience allows the valve to open up whereby the navigator may 'band-switch' the hyperdimensional radio/Mind.

An interesting analogy (which supports the holographic universe theory having dimensions), would be the holographic storage technologies which have been developed in recent years. The sheer amount of data which can be stored holographically far surpasses any other medium. Why? The angle/vector in which the light records onto the holographic medium can actually record new sets of data - where one is only limited by the amount of recordable angles. Think of each as a dimension, right next to each other, touching each other, but one data set is unaware of the other recorded next to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_data_storage

Another holographic analogy ... if you have ever seen one of those multi-pictures you can buy and hang on a wall ... where if you stand on one side of the room, you see one image. You walk to the center, another image appears, you walk to the other side of the room, yet another picture. Where you stand is relative to the picture you see based on the angle reference. Very much like science today:) The blind men/elephant story, each describing a different part of the elephant. I'll stop here before I drift off topic. lol

Omni
13th May 2014, 02:14
Other dimensions are where chakras and the soul can reside. It is also where ETs for the most part travel super-luminally. They exist whether the imagination thinks they are there or not IMO. It's not bad science.... Scientists can't agree on it sure. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also if atoms pop in and out of existence, where do they go? We will find other dimensions in science eventually and it will be proven. Just like chakras and the soul(and reincarnation) will be proven. Just my 2 cents.

ghostrider
13th May 2014, 02:45
Hyperspace is real ... the nameless nothing where time does not have any influence on matter or particles ... 48. You are partially correct:

49. Actually, hyperspace may only be penetrated very far in outer space, otherwise, planets would be pulled in.

50. Also, concerning the exit from hyperspace, you figured it out entirely correct.

51. It is also a fact that some comets originated in this manner, but only a few; most of them were guided on their dangerous path by other natural events.

52. In this case you are only partly right when you assume that all comets originated in this manner, as you perhaps suspected.

53. But the fact is, such events are caused by irresponsibility, because it exists throughout outer space, not only on Earth.

54. Irresponsibility is evident also when new highly developed intelligences perform their first ventures into hyperspace too close to other planets.

55. The safety rule is calculable and states that hyperspeed is only to be initiated 153 million kilometers (95,625,000 miles) away from the nearest planet.

Billy

Tesla_WTC_Solution
13th May 2014, 02:50
I always laugh when "human observation" becomes necessary for a truth to be a truth.

Humans can't see infrared (without prehistoric genes) and can't hear ultrasound, for example.
Yet we know (because it's visible to our instruments) that Sirius (for example) gives off huge amounts of infrared heat.
We know that some stars produce sounds akin to ultrasound when they spin.
So do many animals, lol.

Our observation has nothing to do with the fact that these processes and phenomena occur.

Arguing for the sake of arguing. We are creating another dimension already :) ;)

Pilote Tempête
13th May 2014, 03:32
Observation is not necessary for the fact that the universe can only be in 3D, it is only very compelling and convincing supporting evidence. The 3D universe is a necessary truth and necessary truths are part of rationalism, which is not part of mainstream science.