Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

[SilentFeathers]

It's not really that odd...

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft

I find MH370 very odd, MH17 very odd, and now this AH5017 in Mali, (crashing right after being diverted over a war zone) not just a little suspicious, but very odd.

The one in Taiwan (GE222) seems to be very much weather related, not much suspicion surrounding that crash, but the other 3, well, VERY odd.

We must consider AH5017 went down during an aviation alert over Israel because of a missile threat and while all carriers were avoiding the area there. Also many many countries are pissed right now with Israel and many of these countries contain radicals that'll shoot at anything that moves, especially if they think it has any western interests what so ever, including those fighters on the ground in Mali being suppressed by the French (coincidence half the passengers were French???). Also sand storms at 30,000ft???? Also diversion to avoid a collision? Collision with what? Storms? theres planes flying through and around storms daily and they don't all crash.

Anything that happens right now needs to be looked at with a sharp eye in my opinion, there's just too much going on right now and too many ingredients to cause motive to do such things.....and the pressure for war is escalating not de-escalating.

[Operator]

...
If those black boxes are given to the British (zionists) the truth will never come out. Malaysia should find an independent arbitrator to do this evaluation. If the British are afforded the responsibility, an alternative version to the truth will already have been created.
...


Same thoughts here as soon as I heard on the news that the Dutch OVV council handed the
black boxes over to the British to 'retrieve' the data.

The OVV declared that the black boxes were not tampered with ... to underline that the
data coming out of the investigation must be authentic ?

Give me a break. They hand it over to a country that declared that they would not have
to think twice about cancelling an arms deal with Russia if they were in the same position
as France. Who was one of the parties that fabricated the Iraqi WMD evidence in 2003?

They are not the ones that are gonna prove they were wrong ... :twitch:

[Wind]

They actually seem to go in clusters, at least some of them ... logically , there's no 'equal distribution' but also .. this may have something to do with either solar flares or other kinds of radiation affecting the atmosphere . Or else ..

You're right about space weather, I think that cosmic rays play a huge role in the "accidents", but I could be wrong.

http://www.suspicious0bserverscollective.org/the-blog/space-weather-suicide-a-correspondence-with-dr-pyare-lal-verma

[jerry]

Another flaw in the US blame game
US Intelligence: No Evidence Russia Did It — Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/

[Cidersomerset]

Where have the Rothschilds disappeared to?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roR3sSunqpo

Good presentation by David about the Rothchild Zionists. Mainstream
press and academics ignore him or laugh , but Where does David get
most of his information ? Research connecting the dots. He may ad
his own interpretations on his findings which is open to debate, but
the basic facts he presents are available to any one to research.

The difference between Jews and Zionism is not what David made up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk to Al Jazeera - Rabbi Dovid Weiss: Zionism has created 'rivers of blood'

oUppu2OHVTY

Published on 10 Mar 2012


The Jewish scholar explains why Zionism and Judaism are not necessarily the
same thing and why he believes that Israel as a state is not legitimate.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The David Icke Videocast: Exposing The Lie On Israel’s Fake History – ‘The Cruellest Hoax’

Sunday 20 July 2014



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment21-587x511.jpg


The David Icke Videocast: Exposing The Lie On Israel's Fake History - 'The Cruellest Hoax'



jhEtCL_zkwk


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel


etXAm-OylQQ


Published on 2 Dec 2012


Miko Peled was born in Jersusalem into a famous and influential Israeli Zionist
family. His father was a famous General in the Israeli Army, of which Miko also
served his time. When Miko's niece was killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, you
may have expected the family to put Palestinians at fault, but surprisingly they
blamed the state of Israel, and their violent torturing and persecution for driving
people to such sadness that they would take their own lives.

Through his father's deep knowledge of the Israeli war of terror, together with his
own research, Miko Peled ruins the myths surrounding the Israel and Palestine
situation, and delivers a truth so damning that many Jews and Israel supporters
will not be able to bear it. He reveals facts such as the original expelled Jews are
not the ones returning, and they are not their descendants either, covers the
double standards regarding the right of return, which doesn't apply to Palestinians,
and dispels the myth that there has been a conflict for ages by producing proof that
it was peaceful up until 1947 when Israel launched their illegal attacks.

Miko is just one of the many modern day Jews against Zionism and the state of
Israel, and with the information he delivers in this astounding talk, it is not difficult
to see why more and more Jews are rejecting Zionism and calling for the
dismantling of Israel. It is a true eye-opener for anyone who has for too long been
blinded by the fake misinformation given by the mainstream media, and the truths
come straight from the heartland where he has spent many years documenting the real story.

[Cidersomerset]

Civilian cost of Ukraine war: hundreds dead, thousands flee


GaT1iz9-ptE


===================================================

If Texas or Scotland becomes independent in the upcoming vote, and say
in 10 years ethnic English or US residents were being attacked or wanted
to form enclaves if they were the majority in that county or city. I'm sure
American and English weapons if not troops would soon be on the ground
helping them. So if things get worse and more civilians refugees flee over
the border. Russian troops will intervene I would have thought.....




http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg


http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/europe/scotland/map_of_scotland.jpg

[Cidersomerset]

Media wars
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OSCE, journalists question claims surrounding MH17

th0PotnT8T0

Published on 24 Jul 2014


Experts are combing the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 for evidence,
including victims’ body parts and plane fragments. Members of the Organization
for Security and Cooperation say they have a high-level of access to the site, and
also said that reports of looting are impossible to verify. As the investigation continues
and the media frenzy calms, some journalists, most notably CNN’s Diana Magnay,
are beginning to ask questions about the reliability of the evidence presented by both
the US and Russian governments. RT’s Lindsay France and Roman Kosarev have more.

====================================================

In the media age........Like hypnosis and mind control , when pointed out
to the masses , it does not work.

Obama’s writer confesses brainwashing tactic

v90Lzvz02dU

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Recently, NPR did a story on how presidential speechwriters intentionally use
cadence, or rhythm of speech, to move people emotionally. They reference Jon
Favreau, Obama's ex-speechwriter, and Mary Kate Cary, George. H.W. Bush's ex-
speechwriter, who both admit to intentionally counting beats in a speech in order to
hook people in. The Resident discusses. Follow The Resident at http://www.twitter.com/TheResident

[SilentFeathers]

Just a note: Do you see how our attention is now being drawn away from this crash and more so towards what's happening in Gaza, and now the West Bank? It's as if they steer us like mindless minds! lol!

But, anyways, with the resignation of the Ukraine PM and a couple other western puppets now, eyes must remain on that area of the globe regardless.

It does seem Israel is connected to MH17, but speculation is all it's adding up too. With Israel ramping up it's killing machine and the media focusing more there right now, I don't believe it's an accident or coincidental that the masses (mindless minds) are being steered drastically in that direction right now.

It really does seem that the controllers are on a campaign to massively get everyone divided right now from the simplest differences to the extreme differences....and many people are dieing in the process.

My personal opinion/prediction right now; Too many people, here in the states especially, are looking at too many things right now abroad and having many legitimate questions and doubts about what they are being told as truth. For this reason alone I'll predict an event is about to occur here in the states to cause many to stop looking abroad so much, especially towards Israel and Ukraine, and cause them to focus on this event here instead to a larger degree rather than looking at what's going on elsewhere.

[KiwiElf]

My question to Israel is, what is it in Palestine that you so badly want??

My question to the Cabal is, what is it in Ukraine that you so badly want??

Wouldn't have anything to do with some ancient pyramids, tunnels and artifacts, would it?

[Cidersomerset]

My question to Israel is, what is it in Palestine that you so badly want??


I think there are various reasons for the Zionist take over of 'The Holy Land'

By getting rid of non Isreali muslims, they will be able to

Rebuild Solomon's temple and full fill the bible prophecies ...

http://www.3ds.com/blog/draftsight/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/King-Solomons-Temple-model.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.texemarrs.com/images/third_temple_model_large.jpg

Mysteries of the Temple

Why does Rothschild, the Jewish Sanhedrin, the Masonic Lodge, The Mormon
Church, and scores of Satanic cults seek to rebuild Solomon�s Temple in
Jerusalem? What of Jesus� prophecy that the Temple of the Jews would be
destroyed and the House of Israel "left desolate" until His return? Why do millions
of pro-Zionist evangelical Christians take pride in attempting to undo what Christ
has done and strive to nullify Jesus� prophecy and rebuild both the Temple and
the House of Israel? What occult mysteries and satanic purposes are embodied in
the millennia-old quest to rebuild the Temple and reinstitute blood sacrifices? What
will happen when the antichrist (666) enters the rebuilt Temple and blasphemously
declares he is "God?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My question to the Cabal is, what is it in Ukraine that you so badly want??

Maybe to do with that is the region where the Khazar Jews come from and
most jews in Isreal desended from Khazari , see a couple of posts up and
below......


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wouldn't have anything to do with some ancient pyramids, tunnels and artifacts, would it?

Don't know...LOL ..but keep your eye on that !!

[Cidersomerset]

It does seem Israel is connected to MH17, but speculation is all it's adding up too. With Israel ramping up it's killing machine and the media focusing more there right now, I don't believe it's an accident or coincidental that the masses (mindless minds) are being steered drastically in that direction right now.


According to Texe the US and Israel are behind the Ukrainian mess...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A bit biblical but this is at the heart of all this bollocks, and some elites follow
this like gospel ( so to speak ) and this may be why these events are being
manipulated into fulfilling prophecy......He explains how Israel and the US
organised and sponsored the 'Orange 'revolution and are controlling events
behind the scenes....

https://i0.wp.com/www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/khazaria.gif

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEXE MARRS - MYSTERY BABYLON LIVES! - JULY 19, 2014

W43rs-Oqc3g

Published on 19 Jul 2014


Ezekiel 38-39 prophesies that in the last days, Gog, demonic ruler of the land of Magog,
shall come against Israel, which is brought forth out of the nations. He shall come like a
storm and shall conquer this land of unwalled villages, and take them hostage

Who is Gog? Where is the land of Magog? Now, with new and astonishing archaeological
and genetic discoveries, we have amazing evidence that, in fact, Magog is situated in
Southern Russia, in the Caucusus, and Gog is the name of the great ruler of the Kingdom
of Khazaria. Khazaria is the land of the non-Semitic, Turkic peoples who falsely claim to be
Jews. From Khazaria, in the eight century, these pagan peoples, having converted to Judaism,
fled to Europe to escape invading Russian warriors.

In 1948, the Khazarians went on to Palestine, where they conquered the peaceful Palestinians
and set up a pretentious, new "Kingdom of Israel." The Khazarians, claiming to be "Jews," are
from Magog. Led by Satan's Gog, in the last days they are destined to plunge the entire world
into bloodshed, chaos, and war. Ezekiel 38-39 is fulfilled in front of our eyes! http://www.texemarrs.com/

[KiwiElf]

All true, and the primary reason Hitler and the 3rd Reich plundered countries for their ancient knowledge and sacred sites is well documented; these areas are literally gold mines (Iraq included in that ;)). Oil is just a smokescreen.

[Cidersomerset]

All true, and the primary reason Hitler and the 3rd Reich plundered countries for their ancient knowledge and sacred sites is well documented; these areas are literally gold mines (Iraq included in that ). Oil is just a smokescreen.


Its amazing how all these http://www.codesqueeze.com/wp-content/2007/10/elephant.gif connect together...LOL

[araucaria]

"Suppose that there is an average of one fatal accident per year, meaning that the chance of a crash on any given day is one in 365," says Barnett. "If there is a crash on 1 August, the chance that the next crash occurs one day later on 2 August is 1/365. But the chance the next crash is on 3 August is (364/365) x (1/365), because the next crash occurs on 3 August only if there is no crash on 2 August."

As each day passes, the likelihood of a fatal accident falls. "It seems counterintuitive, but the conclusion follows relentlessly from the laws of probability," Barnett says.

.........


This ‘nextness’ is a nice bit of sophistry. Yes, ‘the next crash is on 3 August is (364/365) x (1/365)’, but we are not talking about next crashes. There is a 1/365 chance of a crash any day, on 3 August, on 2 August, and on 1 August; its position in a sequence is neither here nor there. Simply it will have a higher degree of nextness than the previous two.


The difference between intuitive and counterintuitive here is the difference between theoretical statistics (probability predicting a similar future to the past) and real life. Statistically speaking, if a string of accidents starts happening, you are preparing for a longish gap before any more accidents happen. But why? Statistics alone don’t tell the whole story. It could well be that someone has found a cause and introduced a remedy. Otherwise, you might find the yearly average changing drastically for the worse – it is only the average so far.

[Agape]

"Suppose that there is an average of one fatal accident per year, meaning that the chance of a crash on any given day is one in 365," says Barnett. "If there is a crash on 1 August, the chance that the next crash occurs one day later on 2 August is 1/365. But the chance the next crash is on 3 August is (364/365) x (1/365), because the next crash occurs on 3 August only if there is no crash on 2 August."

As each day passes, the likelihood of a fatal accident falls. "It seems counterintuitive, but the conclusion follows relentlessly from the laws of probability," Barnett says.

.........


This ‘nextness’ is a nice bit of sophistry. Yes, ‘the next crash is on 3 August is (364/365) x (1/365)’, but we are not talking about next crashes. There is a 1/365 chance of a crash any day, on 3 August, on 2 August, and on 1 August; its position in a sequence is neither here nor there. Simply it will have a higher degree of nextness than the previous two.


The difference between intuitive and counterintuitive here is the difference between theoretical statistics (probability predicting a similar future to the past) and real life. Statistically speaking, if a string of accidents starts happening, you are preparing for a longish gap before any more accidents happen. But why? Statistics alone don’t tell the whole story. It could well be that someone has found a cause and introduced a remedy. Otherwise, you might find the yearly average changing drastically for the worse – it is only the average so far.


I agree that statistics itself is an 'odd matter' , it does not explain causes or consequences . Moreso , if we add 'predictability of events' by statistics to the real evolution of events we may arrive at 'odd count' .

Lets say that all accidents could be put down to some sort of technical failure , or , in another case, to weather anomaly or human failure .
Engineers of any sort would probably tell you something like ''in every 100 000' runs of engine error can occur'' . That's if they were totally honest . Of course, failures are not supposed to occur ...that's why planes and all other machines have to pass revision each year to minimise the probability .
Even then , errors do occur . So lets say , with technical revisions, they can occur in every 1 million runs .

Now how many airplanes are in the air everyday ? 50 000 ?

Theoretically , they could then experience some sort of failure every month , it does not mean a 'crash' . In most cases , if there's technical difficulty they can still land safely and fix it . It's not reported anywhere , except aviation reports I suppose .

For the rest .. so lets presume statistical average of 12 crashes of some sort in one year .. the probability that those will occur once every month , on the same day is very low . If they did , it would be called 'equal distribution' but that's not the case .
It's simple as that ... the most harmonious pattern is the least probable .

On the other end of the scale, the probability that all failures occur on the same day of the year or in string of 12 days is also very low .

So , however odd this seems .. they seem to happen in clusters ..that's somewhere between 'equal distribution' and 'chain of 12 days' . Both would be least probable .


I agree it explains very little . :confused:


PS : Away from plane crashes , example of this 'cluster occurrence' is the seemingly irrational human belief that events in life ( good or bad ) go by 3 .
It's not provable yet seems to be common experience . Why is that .. I think it may have something to do with lax human nature and our common tendency to avoid decisions ..
in case of good decisions it results in avoiding them , in case of preventing errors and disasters as well .
So we happen to overlook and delay fixing things properly or let them run as they're able to , for example because we think we lack resources to do that and keeping 'fingers crossed' instead so they keep going .
But then .. when the sum of all delayed errors piles up , they seem to crash one after another , similarly as when one health difficulty starts everything else adds to it .

Or , in case of wars and other conflicts ... when people try to prevent addressing problems for long time then the 'hell breaks loose' , all are suddenly shooting at each other . It's an example of 'cluster event' .


:angel:

[Cidersomerset]

This is a discussion on how Russia is perceived by themselves
and the outside world. The hypocritical views of many western
media outlets that forget the same views are still prevalent
in their own societies as well.......Its the Western elites that
are anti Russian not the population and the neo -con/London
media and political press are having a media battle with Russia
and their own populations which we have been seeing over the
last few years. Especially anti Putin as he has been the leader
of what they see is anti corporate western power.

=============================================

CrossTalk: Idea of Russia & Russians

AdN_GBil2CM

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Western perception of Russia is negative and even menacing. Is this the result of differing
cultural values? And is the west merely projecting its own short comings on Russia?
CrossTalking with Neil Clark, Nicolai Petro and Vladimir Golstein.

[Snoweagle]

Now we can see the reason why Israeli Diplomats were recalled to Israel quite recently. (you know the "pay strike" thang - yeh right)

So here we have all the nations around the world having pressure exerted on them to disqualify any contest to the promoted and favoured opinion of those seeking global warfare to cover the crimes in the Middle East. (and elsewhere)

Problem is even MSM is struggling to maintain the line. The Jewish hegemony throughout these incidents reek.

This time the lie is too big.

[Manuel]

What about all the people that died on this flight?
Have we all seen the return of all the bodies to the Netherlands?
And the respect they get at last, after all that's been happenning...
Let's not forget this please.

Sorry i don't post much like some of you do and it's been a while...
I just didn't want this topic to just be about the why's how's and etc...

It's about the people and all their loved ones...

English is not my first laungage? sorry.

[sms]

Just to add into the pot this interesting article - Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag (http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/MH17)

..

[naste.de.lumina]

In these surreal times when the ancient 'Game of Thrones'
is being played out in new ways in this global theatre.
O59SiA4Yg0A



ZvfyiLNhoVg

http://quotes-lover.com/wp-content/uploads/People-laugh-cause-Im-different-I-laugh-cause-they-are-all-the-same.jpg

[sigma6]

Well it's looks like the US/Israeli sabotage of MH17 has paid off, they are going to get their sanctions....
But I wonder what the real deal is behind the scenes... But it sounds like a key player was the Dutch Prime Minister
convincing everyone to apply sanctions "even if it hurts their own economies" ... what a brilliant stroke of genius...

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutch-minister-made-europe-think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html

[TargeT]

I'm still wondering at the ultimate goal of this one... punishment for the BRICS actions seems the most logical; but punishment is not enough, unless something else is planned the BRICS standing up their own financial system is a very serious threat to the seemingly desired order of events.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more, perhaps a lot more action against russia (of course not open above board action,,, more false flag attempts and other shady dealings)

[Operator]

Well it's looks like the US/Israeli sabotage of MH17 has paid off, they are going to get their sanctions....
But I wonder what the real deal is behind the scenes... But it sounds like a key player was the Dutch Prime Minister
convincing everyone to apply sanctions "even if it hurts their own economies" ... what a brilliant stroke of genius...

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutch-minister-made-europe-think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html

Timmermans is 'only' foreign affairs minister ... so instead of messing up the Netherlands they
gave him the rest of the world to 'play' in.

I don't like him ... wittingly or not but he seems to take the NWO bait every time with hook,
line and sinker.

[SilentFeathers]

Amazingly they are doing this without some sort of investigation, but based on some tweets/facebook posts, a bogus youtube video, and a whole bunch of "guesses".

Adding; Throughout history, has any one ever defeated/conquered/destroyed Russia????

[Selene]

Too funny: The desperately faux ‘Tweets and Facebook posts’ claims of now-jocular State Department PR blather, "social media"-aka- expensive intelligence. Really. We are so grateful.

Well, they’re kinda trapped, aren’t they?

On the one hand, they’re having rings run around them by YouTube, Facebook, Twits and the rest of us AltMedia.... actual on-site evidence and fair comment. We can see what’s going on, and report it. This is awkward, especially when you have “another story” to spin....

We’re screwing them.

So they have to try to front run all of this, pretend they (fluffing hair Miss Piggy style at the State Department) “knew it all along” and have better social connections than thou, and better info. Trust us.

As if.

The lie is hilarious. The nakedness of the Emperor is obscene.

Cheers,

Selene

[jackovesk]

Well it's looks like the US/Israeli sabotage of MH17 has paid off, they are going to get their sanctions....
But I wonder what the real deal is behind the scenes... But it sounds like a key player was the Dutch Prime Minister
convincing everyone to apply sanctions "even if it hurts their own economies" ... what a brilliant stroke of genius...

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutch-minister-made-europe-think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html


I'm still wondering at the ultimate goal of this one... punishment for the BRICS actions seems the most logical; but punishment is not enough, unless something else is planned the BRICS standing up their own financial system is a very serious threat to the seemingly desired order of events.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more, perhaps a lot more action against russia (of course not open above board action,,, more false flag attempts and other shady dealings)

Where in trouble if 2 of our most intelligent Avalonians can't decipher the real underlying Agenda...:shocked:

Just jokes guys, here is a few more clues, one you've already mentioned...



BRICS
MONOPOLY
BOLSHEVIKs
RUSSIAN OLIGARCHs
EUROPEAN UNION
ENERGY RESOURCES
FACTIONAL WAR
IDEALOGY
CORPORATIONS
OTTOMAN EMPIRE


In effect the are many-many underlying reasons that have been left to remain hidden, but now are surfacing because the NWO has just pressed the...

http://has.aerospacescholars.org/files/has/ASG.gif

In the very words of Aussie Rock Legend (Doc Neeson)



This is it folks, Over the Top..!!!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AgV5xd-aPDs/UKbm5p9IT2I/AAAAAAAAE8c/yj-_XEiwFlE/s640/ANGELSBLOLOGO.jpg

PS - Yep, this is it folks the NWO are starting the ((ALL OUT ATTACK)) for their 1 World Govt. & Currency Control...:yes4:

However, Russia wants their (Slice of the Pie) as do all the other BRICS Nations with Germany to come..!

The (Line in the Sand) has been DRAWN and the world will become a very different place from MH17 onwards..:yes4:

http://pronlinenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Tonyu-Branco-Putin-Lines-Comically-Incorrect.jpg

[jackovesk]

In these surreal times when the ancient 'Game of Thrones'
is being played out in new ways in this global theatre.
O59SiA4Yg0A



ZvfyiLNhoVg



Game of Thrones - Guitar (TAB) Here's an easy one for all you budding (Medieval 'Acoustic' Guitarist's) out there...:peace:


Charlie Parra Del Riego - Game Of Thrones Theme (Acoustic Guitar) Tab

Click to enlarge 1x & again for 2x & 3x for biggest picture

26590
http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/charlie-parra-del-riego-game-of-thrones-theme-acoustic-guitar-tab-s91358t0

PS - Here are some of my (Best Friends)...:thumb:

26589

[jackovesk]

Just underlining:

‘Unnamed US officials are telling Associated Press that their intelligence suggests Malaysia
plane shot down by anti-Kiev militia, no link to Russia found.

Officials believe that the passenger aircraft was intercepted by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile,
which was fired by Ukrainian militia members. One official said the likeliest explanation was the
aircraft was shot down in error, an assertion that seem to be bolstered by the previous downing
of 12 Ukrainian military aircraft by militants in the region.

Intelligence suggests that, although the US maintains that Russia “created the conditions” that
led to the incident, officials were not aware of the presence of any Russians during the missile
launch, and would not confirm that the missile crew was trained in Russia.’

This reminds me of socialist car insurance... It's nobodies fault... everyone is taking their jabs, anyone not participating is getting screwed over,
and at the end of the day, the bodies have already been returned to their frozen food lockers, and the US is still using their
Satanic marketing strategy, quick... what is the Satanic opposite of "Russia created the conditions" ?

I still think Pieczenik is right on the money, this is like Murder on the Orient Express...

This is a symptom of many leaders fearing for their jobs, not just one... the masses are ever so closer to waking up...
Someone outside the government has to break free and rise up...

roR3sSunqpo


I still think Pieczenik is right on the money, this is like Murder on the Orient Express...

Here ya go mate...

http://www.reformy.cz/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/StevePiczenik-620x300.png

Latest update from Dr. Steve Pieczenik (PhD) with Alex Jones - Thursday July 24 2014

Pieczenik interview starts @ 1:05:20mins


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEheSmT6uEg
Enjoy...:tea:

[sigma6]

PS - Yep, this is it folks the NWO are starting the ((ALL OUT ATTACK)) for their 1 World Govt. & Currency Control...

The US, at least on paper (and that does count...) has this ridiculous huge debt load. As a result all countries are now engaged in this currency war. War is definitely the "out" the US is looking for. They've blown up the World Trade Building records and the "gold" supposedly in the basement. They've blown up Building 7 records. Do they want to blow up more records of their debts? Karen Hudes says there is a 90% chance that countries will follow the Rule of Law. I think that is a bit high. Is she factoring in remote controlled 777s which equals gangster like extortion and terrorism of anyone who bought Boeing airliners? I sometimes wonder what the "world at the top must really look like" where sabotage, propaganda, currency wars, disinformation ops, military arms race, are combined with G7,8, 20 and UN meetings...

I also wonder if the UK selling arms to Russia, while making very loud and public their protests (almost too loud, and all in unison) regarding the Israeli invasion is supposed to mean something? (Besides making a profit... :) It is rather odd. i.e. has the Queen (or Inner City of London?) made a deal or concessions with the WDS/China? But that doesn't make sense because City of London collects 40% and is the heart of the NWO?... Then again would they like to see the Vatican go down and break free of the Yoke that was put on them in 1200... Again sometimes the only way to make sense is to think of it like World Wrestling Federation Soap Opera. (Pieczenik theory) i.e maybe it's just pure business at the top. As in too big to give a crap. Neither can really take the other out (not including nukes) So they have to deal. And according to 1984, there is supposed to be 3 huge global blocks NA, Europe and Asia...

It's seems like they are taking the weak players off the board. Re-slicing of the world pie. We are seeing the disintegration of Ukraine (if they were in bad straits before the war, they are toast now) in terms of monopoly they may just have to give up part of Ukraine in exchange for the liability of MH17! which surely they can't afford... Poroshenko must have chocolate stains on his undies when that plane crashed in his jurisdiction. Any money loaned to them from the IMF is already spent on US military/mercenaries/Insurance and rebuilding, i.e they just got stuck holding the bag. Hook, line and stinker. (I told them not to beg to join the IMF!...)(Imagine the look on Poroshenko's face right now... time to pony up...) i.e. if the world is just one huge conglomerate of corporations... it just downsized (with more cost cuts in the works...)

I also think these attacks on Russia can be interpreted as nothing more then money making opportunities on the Stock markets. There's billions to be made in these prices swings, especially if your an insider... This might sound insensitive, but how many people are dying every day on this planet from starvation, war, and terrorism right now. How many planes crashed in the last two weeks alone... This might be the "alternative" to war. A modern day 21 century war. And if that is the case, we have come a long way.

just some thoughts..

[Cidersomerset]

What about all the people that died on this flight?
Have we all seen the return of all the bodies to the Netherlands?
And the respect they get at last, after all that's been happenning...
Let's not forget this please.

Sorry i don't post much like some of you do and it's been a while...
I just didn't want this topic to just be about the why's how's and etc...

It's about the people and all their loved ones...

English is not my first laungage? sorry.


Very good point , it has been mentioned earlier, but its easy to get
overlooked.....


==============================================


We have not and must not forget the victims of MH17 and all
the other tragedies going on ......

Though the discussion is mainly focused on the Who? How ?

and........

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/24/article-2704340-1FEF8A5F00000578-827_634x321.jpg

---------------------------------


a44D6JhI8bI


Published on 23 Jul 2014


The bodies of the first victims from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 have arrived back in the
Netherlands following the crash in eastern Ukraine last Thursday - READ MORE http://on.rt.com/lrxmio

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


United in Grief: Dutch pay tribute to MH17 crash victims

GqBlgCkp-mI

Published on 22 Jul 2014


Devastated relatives of MH17 plane crash victims mourn after one of the
deadliest plane crashes in Dutch history. Remains will arrive in the
Netherlands on Wednesday. In the meantime people in Rotterdam pay
tribute to one grieving Dutch family. RT's Peter Oliver reports.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MH17 investigation: 'Main goal is to bring everyone home'

ckRTNQm5y2M

24 July 2014 Last updated at 22:51 BST

A spokeswoman for Dutch forensic investigation team has said its goal is to identify
all victims of flight MH17 and "bring everyone home".

Speaking to the BBC's Tim Willcox, Esther Naber said the identification process
would take time.

Read more
MH17 crash: More bodies transferred to Netherlands

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28457737

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/1274500/1405916280000/large16x9/768/432/newcastle-fans-tribute.jpg

The tribute to John Alder and Liam Sweeney in front of the players' entrance at the Milburn Stand of St James Park.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flight MH17 Victims Tribute (R.I.P.)

0R1s8eSRu-0

[Cidersomerset]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


25 July 2014 Last updated at 16:58

MH17: Australia and Netherlands seek Ukraine site access



The Netherlands and Australia are seeking access to the MH17 crash site in Ukraine, as more planes
with victims' bodies landed in Eindhoven.

Foreign ministers from both countries attended a ceremony marking the departures in the city of Kharkiv.

Separately the EU has formally announced that it is strengthening sanctions against Russia.

It says that "15 further persons and 18 entities" have been subjected to an asset freeze and a visa ban.

A statement says that those targeted are "responsible for action against Ukraine's territorial integrity".

"This brings the number of persons currently under EU sanctions in connection with the situation in
Ukraine to 87 while the number of entities will rise to 20," the statement issued on behalf of the
Council for the European Union said.

The statement also said that the Council had decided to introduce measures which pave the way
for "imposing asset freezes and visa bans on persons and entities that actively support or are
benefiting from Russian decision-makers responsible for the annexation of Crimea or the destabilisation
of eastern Ukraine".

'Bring home everybody'

The Dutch and Australian Foreign Ministers, Frans Timmermans and Julie Bishop are negotiating with
Ukrainian officials in Kiev to send police to the crash site which is controlled by pro-Russia rebels amid
continuing fighting.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76523000/jpg/_76523368_76523367.jpg

One of two transport aircraft which flew another 74 coffins from Kharkiv in government-controlled eastern
Ukraine arrives in Eindhoven in the Netherlands on Friday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28478941

[Cidersomerset]

Russia accuses US of 'smear campaign' over Ukraine

0XzCuAKJS_s

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Russia has called the latest US accusations claiming that Moscow is involved in
the Ukrainian conflict a baseless smear campaign.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said the United States bears responsibility for the
bloodshed in Ukraine. US Deputy State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf
said on Thursday that the latest evidence suggests that Russian troops are
firing artillery from across the border in Russia toward the Ukrainian military.
The Foreign Ministry statement said Harf is trying to turn public opinion
against Russia. Moscow has denounced the protests in Kiev which led to the
ouster of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych and called it a
US-sponsored regime change. The statement said Washington supported the
coup in the country. Russia alleges that the current leadership in Ukraine wants
to cruelly repress the Russian-speaking population in the east of the country.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


_bDiNakvBmw


Ukraine conflict: Russia accuses US of 'smear campaign'3 hours ago

The European Union has expanded its blacklist of Russian individuals and organisations which
will be subject to asset freezes and travel bans in protest at Russia's role in the Ukraine crisis.

Meanwhile, Russia has accused the United States of conducting a "smear campaign" over its
alleged involvement in the conflict.

The US says it believes rebels shot down the Malaysia Airlines jet with a Russian-provided
SA-11 Buk surface-to-air missile, probably by mistake.

The row comes as more bodies of victims from flight MH17, which crashed in Ukraine,
arrived in the Netherlands.

Emily Thomas reports.

Read more
Ukraine conflict: Russia accuses US of 'smear campaign'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28492474

[Cidersomerset]

RT contributor deported from Ukraine

Assaulted, robbed by National Guard......




UtJOX7b6qJ4


Published on 25 Jul 2014


Graham Phillips, an RT contributor covering the conflict in eastern Ukraine,
has been deported to the UK, following his arrest at Donetsk airport on
Tuesday night. Phillips, who was previously detained by Ukrainian forces
for two days in May, will not be allowed to re-enter the country for three
years. The SBU said that the official reason for the deportation was the
threat Phillips presented to "state security, sovereignty and territorial
integrity" of Ukraine. RT’s Ameera David speaks to Graham to get a
first-hand account of his ordeal.

[Cidersomerset]

This is the power of the web the Elites hate....


JewsAndArabsRefuseToBeEnemies: People unite for peace amid Gaza conflict

SCCWX9Q5G2c


Quds Day: Muslims hold massive rallies throughout the world in support of Palestine

I98OP31o3To

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Muslims throughout the world are marking International Quds Day. It's traditionally
used to express solidarity with the Palestinian people - and this year, most of the
banners in the streets are denouncing Israeli aggression in Gaza. Protesters in Iran
were chanting anti-Israeli slogans and burning the country's flag.

In the capital Tehran the rally was attended by the Iranian president. There were
similar scenes today across India. There, thousands of Muslims marched in support
of Palestine and held prayers. A high turnout too in London, from where
Polly Boiko reports - READ MORE http://on.rt.com/0pkw3t

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAW: Pro-Palestinian protesters clash with pro-Israelis in Berlin

yviXKrGapL4

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Hundreds of Pro-Palestinian protesters took to the streets of Berlin Friday in protest of
the recent attacks on Gaza . Minor clashes broke out between counter-protesters waving
Israeli flags and chanting at the pro-Palestinian protesters. No arrests or casualties were
reported - READ MORE http://on.rt.com/0pkw3t




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel vs Gaza: IDF intensifies offensive, Hamas rockets reach Tel Aviv

Sx6sscjf61k

Published on 25 Jul 2014


Ten thousand Palestinian protesters took to the city of Ramallah in the West Bank to
voice anger against violence in Gaza. It ended in clashes with Israeli soldiers - which
left two protesters dead and dozens wounded. Harry Fear is in Gaza for RT closely
following the situation. Meanwhile Hamas, continues firing rockets into Israel - with
many reaching as far as Tel Aviv. Paula Slier witnessed Israel's Iron Dome
interception system in action.

[jackovesk]

Islam = Bend over and pray (5 x Per Day) as if your life depended on it...:crazy:


Koran = Mohammed's book of fairytales


The Bible = A misconstrued Mass of Never-ending Stories written by every Tom, Dick & Harry


Christianity = 90% of people who say they are (Real) Christians are Liars


Judaism = Bloody 'Elitism' at its Best...


Sharia Law = Fking (INSANITY) i.e. Be a 'Bad-Girl' and we will cut your Clitoris Off...:angry:


Catholism = Faith built solely on ((GUILT)), what a way to live your life...:faint:


I'm Sick to Fking Death of (ALL of IT)...:mad2:


Religious people are some of the "Dumbest" people on the planet, they are the blind leading the blind...:wizard:

PS - The only (Truth) on any of the 'above' is hidden and locked away in the Vatican library...!!!

PSS - It was just on my mind is all, end of RANT...:noidea:

:focus:

[jackovesk]

PS - Yep, this is it folks the NWO are starting the ((ALL OUT ATTACK)) for their 1 World Govt. & Currency Control...

The US, at least on paper (and that does count...) has this ridiculous huge debt load. As a result all countries are now engaged in this currency war. War is definitely the "out" the US is looking for. They've blown up the World Trade Building records and the "gold" supposedly in the basement. They've blown up Building 7 records. Do they want to blow up more records of their debts? Karen Hudes says there is a 90% chance that countries will follow the Rule of Law. I think that is a bit high. Is she factoring in remote controlled 777s which equals gangster like extortion and terrorism of anyone who bought Boeing airliners? I sometimes wonder what the "world at the top must really look like" where sabotage, propaganda, currency wars, disinformation ops, military arms race, are combined with G7,8, 20 and UN meetings...

I also wonder if the UK selling arms to Russia, while making very loud and public their protests (almost too loud, and all in unison) regarding the Israeli invasion is supposed to mean something? (Besides making a profit... :) It is rather odd. i.e. has the Queen (or Inner City of London?) made a deal or concessions with the WDS/China? But that doesn't make sense because City of London collects 40% and is the heart of the NWO?... Then again would they like to see the Vatican go down and break free of the Yoke that was put on them in 1200... Again sometimes the only way to make sense is to think of it like World Wrestling Federation Soap Opera. (Pieczenik theory) i.e maybe it's just pure business at the top. As in too big to give a crap. Neither can really take the other out (not including nukes) So they have to deal. And according to 1984, there is supposed to be 3 huge global blocks NA, Europe and Asia...

It's seems like they are taking the weak players off the board. Re-slicing of the world pie. We are seeing the disintegration of Ukraine (if they were in bad straits before the war, they are toast now) in terms of monopoly they may just have to give up part of Ukraine in exchange for the liability of MH17! which surely they can't afford... Poroshenko must have chocolate stains on his undies when that plane crashed in his jurisdiction. Any money loaned to them from the IMF is already spent on US military/mercenaries/Insurance and rebuilding, i.e they just got stuck holding the bag. Hook, line and stinker. (I told them not to beg to join the IMF!...)(Imagine the look on Poroshenko's face right now... time to pony up...) i.e. if the world is just one huge conglomerate of corporations... it just downsized (with more cost cuts in the works...)

I also think these attacks on Russia can be interpreted as nothing more then money making opportunities on the Stock markets. There's billions to be made in these prices swings, especially if your an insider... This might sound insensitive, but how many people are dying every day on this planet from starvation, war, and terrorism right now. How many planes crashed in the last two weeks alone... This might be the "alternative" to war. A modern day 21 century war. And if that is the case, we have come a long way.

just some thoughts..


I also think these attacks on Russia can be interpreted as nothing more then money making opportunities on the Stock markets. There's billions to be made in these prices swings, especially if your an insider...

This is Global not just Russia's problem - Just like in pre-2008 the ((Central Banks)) are the ones over-inflating the Stock Market and manipulating the Gold Market, just waiting for the conditions to be right and (Pull-the-Plug)..:lever:

Most will be too late to Buy-into the modern Gold-Rush that will follow the biggest ((Market-Correction)) the world has ever seen, because there (Simply won't be any Physical Left to Buy)...:nono:

PS - Just one more thing, you left out the (RAMBO type Blood Thursty PARASITES) of this world, who all need their (PAYCHECKS) too (Ideology not Required)...

http://x3.fjcdn.com/comments/Rambo+cries+like+a+baby+in+his+movies+_d2c4de2f1668e9c0d746981b6164f24c.png



Rambo: Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let us win! And I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport, protesting me, spitting. Calling me baby killer and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!

Trautman: It was a bad time for everyone, Rambo. It's all in the past now.

Rambo: For *you*! For me civilian life is nothing! In the field we had a code of honor, you watch my back, I watch yours. Back here there's nothing!

Trautman: You're the last of an elite group, don't end it like this.

Rambo: Back there I could fly a gunship, I could drive a tank, I was in charge of million dollar equipment, back here I can't even hold a job *parking cars*!


Yeh, my heart really goes out to the poor Black-Water (MERCANARIES) who will do (ANYTHING) for $$$...:faint:

[Cidersomerset]

wEheSmT6uEg

Pieczenik interview starts @ 1:05:20mins



Thanks Jack some excellent points by Steve Pieczenik on the inter relationships
and rivalries of the countries and intelligence agencies in the Middle East
and further afield. This subject is far to vast to put into sound bites. But
since we are not all academic morons and people are watching and contributing
as we go along. We will continue to go at a speed all can follow or we
will end up as those university professors with high pay and few morals..LOL


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE MUSLIM WORLD IS CERTAINLY NOT EQUAL UNDER GOD !!!!!

THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER RELIGION !!! As far as I can see......



Caller Lambasted Saudi Royal Family, House of Saud, Saudi Arabia ,
George says at the end it was so power full it almost made him cry.

a3dPDy7eYks

Published on 31 Jul 2013


Debates and Famous video clips of the Great UK Respect Party Leader & MP
George Galloway will be uploaded on this account. Everyone please Subscribe
today so you don't miss out. Thanks

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABC News investigates Saudi Royal Family lavish lifestyle

mFlqVJi-0_g


Published on 13 Apr 2014


ABC News investigates the lavish lifestyle of the Saudi royal family and talks to
those who say the Saudi princes at play in the Riviera, St. Tropez, Cannes, and
Monte Carlo are making a mockery of their faith and have enraged critics who
seek to overthrow the kingdom's rulers. ABC also reports on the alleged
involvement of some Saudi princes in cocaine smuggling, prostitution rings and
suspected efforts to fund terrorists. In the program, ABC News interviews Prince
Al Walid Bin Talal and investigated prostitution charges against Prince Abdel Azziz
bin Fhad and drug smuggling charges against Prince Nayef bin Fawwaz al Shaalan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

House of Saud

The family is estimated to be composed of 15,000 members, but the majority of the
power and wealth is possessed by a group of only about 2,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud



http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/images/stories/saudi-king-bush.jpg

http://www.anunews.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/aa-Saudi-royal-family-holding-hands-with-Bush-300x225.jpg


Prince Charles takes part in traditional Saudi sword dance - no comment

KdOyF9NhipA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Haram Lifestyle Of Saudi Prince Al Walid bin Tallal

jWG-UyUiJhs

Published on 16 Jun 2013


Get Famous on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube - Get More Facebook Likes, Twitter
Followers, Youtube Subscribers, Website Hits, Sign up here for free - http://bit.ly/1lOFGxa





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In Gaza, the figure living below the poverty line stood at 78%

http://www.middle-east-online.com/meopictures/big/_15172_poverty-8-12-2005.jpg

http://www.uruknet.info/pic.php?f=9_iraq-poverty-25-1-2006.jpg

http://blogs.r.ftdata.co.uk/photo-diary/files/2013/04/baghdad.jpg


WORLD'S RICHEST ARABS 2014

dty8iPG9mjg

Published on 10 Feb 2014


1. HRH Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Al Saud ($31.2 billion)
The Saudi prince's share of the Kingdom Holding Company along
with other private holdings such as Rotana brings his total wealth
to $25.90 billion.

2 Mohamed Al Jaber $12.66bn uk(saudi arabia)


3. The Olayan Family ($12.5 billion)
Founded as a trucking company in 1947, Saudi Arabia's Olayan
Group now has a stake in numerous multinationals, including a
3.6 percent share of Credit Suisse. Controlled by the four children
of the founder.

4. Mohammed Al Amoudi ($12billion)
Saudi/Ethiopian with a portfolio of businesses in oil, mining, agriculture,
hotels, hospitals, finance, operations and maintenance. Named the richest
black person in the world by Forbes.

5. Issam Al Zahid ($11.6billion)
The chairman of the Alzahid Group of Companies, a conglomerate with
41,000 employees and stakes in fields such as mining, logistics, oil and
gas, manufacturing, information technology, foodstuffs and retail.

6. The Sawiris Family ($10 billion)
Coptic Egyptian family that controls the Orascom conglomerate, with
interests in telecommunications, construction, real estate, hotel and
development business.

7. The Kharafi Family ($8.5billion)
Another diversified conglomerate, this one of Kuwait origin with 100,000
employees in 25 countries. The holdings include exclusive franchise rights
in the Middle East for a large number of fast food brands such as KFC, TGI
Friday's and Pizza Hut.

8 Joseph Safra $7.5bn Brazil (Lebanon)

9. The Binladin Family ($7.5 billion)
Closely connected with the Saudi Royal family, the Saudi Binladin Group is
considered the largest construction company in the world. Thirteen of the
late founder Mohammed Binladin's sons sit on the board.

10 Said Khoury ($7 billion)
The Palestinian born co-founder of the Consolidated Contractors International
Company (CCC) is also the governor of the Arab Monetary Fund and a large
shareholder in the Arab Palestinian Investment Company. Since its founding,
CCC has built a large number of well-known buildings throughout the world,
including Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison (before Saddam Hussein came to power)
and the Ronald Reagan National Airport in Washington, DC.



1
Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Al Saud
$31.2bn
saudi arabia
2
Mohamed Al Jaber
$12.66bn
uk(saudi arabia)

4
Mohammed Al Amoudi
$12bn
saudi arabia
5
Issam Al Zahid
$11.6bn
saudi arabia
6
The Sawiris Family
$10bn
egypt
7
The Kharafi Family
$8.5bn
kuwait
8
Joseph Safra
$7.5bn Brazil (Lebanon)
9
The Binladin Family
$7.5bn
saudi arabia
10
Said Khoury
$7bn
Palestine
creidts: arabianbusiness.com




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Zionist Saudi Royal Family Completely Exposed Must Watch

TvfyqlDeAgo

Published on 16 Jun 2013


Zionist Saudi Royal Family Completely Exposed Must Watch

[Cidersomerset]

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

new Saturday 26th July 2014 at 09:58 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1213-587x396.jpg


‘Until this past Monday, the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 17th, 2014, was a potential game
changer for global geopolitics and the New Cold War. However, a funny thing happened on the way to the Kremlin…’



In this report, we will lay out the facts based on a wide breadth of available information and data surrounding MH17. We will also present and give critique to Washington and Kiev’s “mountain of evidence” that has saturated US and European-based media coverage since the incident took place. 21WIRE has compiled this report with the help of many contributors and references from English-speaking media, as well as material translated from Russian and Ukrainian media sources, along with other historical references to provide context. Our objective is to get as close to the truth as possible. Although many revelations will appear to be self-evident, we still encourage the public to draw there own conclusions regarding this pivotal event.

There are other well-known anomalies surrounding this event which have been covered at 21WIRE, as well as connections to MH370, but for the purposes of this investigation we will focus on both factual and speculative evidence brought forth by the US, Ukraine and Russia.

As we will clearly demonstrate, the only wild conspiracy theories being pushed right now, are those coming out of the US State Department, and the government in Kiev, Ukraine, which are being repeated by CNN, BBC, FOX-NewsCorp, ABC, CBS and NBC…

The Brink of War

Last Monday morning was not a pleasant one for the US State Department. Russian officials surprised Washington and its NATO partners when it released all available satellite imagery and air traffic control data which was recorded in and around the final minutes of Flight MH17 – and presented it to the world media on live television. The data painted a very different picture, drawing contrasting conclusions to what Washington and Kiev officials had been disseminating via western media since July 17th. Following their presentation, Moscow handed its findings – air traffic data and time stamped satellite imagery – to European authorities. We will review those findings in detail later in this report. In stark contrast, US officials have been reluctant to do the same. Is Washington willing to share any object data or evidence to the public, or is it only interested in sharing that which somehow fits into the same predetermined narrative it stood by on July 17th, one which already assigned guilt to both rebel fighters in eastern Ukraine and Russia?

We hope that political leaders and media organizations in the US and Europe will take the time to consider all available information, rather than simply repeat and spin what is bouncing around the media echo chamber. It’s also crucial to understand the geopolitical context in which this incident has occurred in order to discover who really possessed the motive, and the means to destroy this passenger aircraft, and which parties stand to benefit most from such an international incident.

After reviewing the evidence, all indicators points to the downing of MH17 as a highly coordinated, but failed false flag event.

MH17: A Doomed Flight Path

A Malaysian Airlines spokesman has already confirmed that, for some unknown reason, Kiev-based Ukrainian Air Traffic Control (ATC) ordered MH17 off of its original flight path along the international air route, known as L980.

Most likely, this order was given to pilots while MH17 was still in Polish air space. L980 is one of the most popular and most congested air routes in the world, as well as a key link between major international hubs in Europe, like London Heathrow, Amsterdam Schiphol, and Frankfurt, and Asian destinations, like Singapore, Mumbai, Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur.

http://21stcenturywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH-17-FLight-Path.jpg


As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-know dangerous area by now – one that’s hosted a number of downed military craft over the previous 3 weeks.

Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine, confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto. Data on all airline flight records can be found here.


The BBC reported on July 17th: “Ukraine’s SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.”

Independent investigators are worried that ATC audio records of the MH17 flight appear to have been confiscated by the Kiev government. No reason has been given for this loss of transparency, but not a word from Washington regarding this cover-up of crucial evidence.

Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? To be sure, the order to change the flight path did not come from Eurocontrol, but rather from ATC in Kiev.

Clue: British media run interference by conjuring a “Storm”

Soon after the incident, British news outlets began floating the story - without evidence, that MH17 was diverted to “avoid thunderstorms in southern Ukraine”. This was also placed on Wikipedia at the same time. Nico Voorbach, who is Dutch, is president of the European Cockpit Association, and was the man used to nudge out this talking point. Voorbach casually slides this crucial fabrication out there, telling The Guardian of all papers, “”I heard that MH17 was diverting from some showers as there were thunderclouds”.

The only problem is that Malaysian Airlines immediately refuted this in a report from Malaysia News:

“MAS operations director Captain Izham Ismail has also refuted claims that heavy weather led to MH17 changing its flight plan.

“There were no reports from the pilot to suggest that this was the case,” Izham said.

What is significant, however, is that the Western media acknowledged that the change in the flight path did occur, and the that “heavy weather” narrative is a fabrication.
Global Research clarifies this confusing issue:

“The route over Ukrainian airspace where the incident occurred is commonly used for Europe to Asia flights. A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident, as were a number of other flights from other carriers in the days and weeks before. Eurocontrol maintains records of all flights across European airspace, including those across Ukraine.”

“What this statement confirms is that the MH17 ‘s “usual flight path” was similar to the flight paths of some 150 international flights which cross Eastern Ukraine on a daily basis. According to Malaysian Airlines “The usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions (that approved flight path is indicated in the maps below).”

The regular flight path of MH17 (and other international flights) over a period of ten days prior to July 17th ( day of the disaster), crossing Eastern Ukraine in a southeasterly direction is across the Sea of Azov.

The Times of India reported this: “Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called “a direct routing”. This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. “Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal,” said an airline source

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Flight-Path.jpg

UPDATE TBC: A number of bloggers have reported that the past flights on FlightRadar and FlightAware were changed between July 24-25th, the new “old flights” were placed over the Donetsk People’s Republic instead of the flights going further south. This does not jibe with what was reported last week by researcher Vagelis Karmiros using data from flight-tracking website Flightaware and published on a number established sites like Zero Hedge. Stay tuned here for updates.

The Event

The fatal event occurred somewhere in the interval between 17:21:28 and 17:22:30 Moscow Time. The exact time of the crash is believed to be at 5:23pm. The last available geographic coordinates can be found here on Flight Radar24:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswkrwNIQAA6YT8.png


Weather and Visibility Factor

Kiev-based air traffic controllers not only led MH17 right over its alleged ‘target zone’ in Eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, but also helped make it visible.

Although weather data online is all but unavailable for the area of Donetsk, Ukraine for July 17th, conditions are evident by numerous videos depicting the crash and crash site in the aftermath - it was cloudy and overcast, with more visibility above the cloud canopy. This factor is important because at its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet (10,000 meters), the airliner would not be visible from the ground in the rebel-held area where Washington is insisting a SAM missile was launched. Why Kiev air traffic controllers order MH17 to suddenly drop its altitude, from 35,000 feet to 33,000 feet, just before the plane’s demise is unknown for sure, but it would have been near impossible for the alleged rebel gunman occupying this relatively small rebel-held patch of land to make a visual sighting of MH17 and acquire the target during the 1-2 minute window they would have had (assuming they were even in possession of the BUK missile system).

The Los Angeles Times reports:

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was cruising just 1,000 feet above restricted airspacewhen it was struck by a missile in Ukraine’s Donetsk region, according to aviation and intelligence officials.


To date, Kiev has refused to acknowledge or explain why the plane was moved into position in this way. Moreover, Interfax news agency reported that Ukraine’s SBU security service confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew immediately after the incident.

The probability that this is all an ‘unfortunate coincidence’ reduces to near zero when one considers the air traffic data and Kiev’s denial of the close proximity of its Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet in pursuit of MH17 minutes before the crash (see ‘Aircraft in the Vicinity’ below).

Small Rebel Target Window

Much has been made by the US and its media of MH17 being shot down and crashing in “the rebel-held area”, but few are aware of just how small the said area actually is. The Ukrainian military had already isolated the rebel area which Kiev and Washington insist a rebel-controlled BUK SAM missile battery had fired on the passenger jet. The actual size of this rebel-held patch is only 40-50 miles wide, with MH17 approaching on a southeastern route over Horlivka, the frontline of this rebel-held zone, towards Snezhnoye (Snizhne). Cruising at 58o mph (933 kmph), MH17 would have only been visible for a very short time – just over 1 minute (if Kiev had not ordered MH17 to alter its course and altitude then it would not have been visible at all), from the vantage point of the alleged rebel firing position. According the Jane’s Defense, the alleged cluprit – an SA-11 (NATO code name) or ‘BUK’ missile system, requires 5 minutes set-up active targeting, followed by an additional 22 seconds ‘reaction time’ for target acquisition and firing. As the MH17 was only visible for 70 seconds above this rebel-held area surrounding Grabovo, unless the alleged rebel firing position was specifically tracking MH17 long before it entered the rebel-held airspace and could distinguish it from other military civilian aircraft also in the general vicinity, Washington’s theory and Kiev’s accusation – that rebels shot down this aircraft becomes even weaker.

Considering these factors, the probability increases greatly that targeting MH17 would have had to be premeditated far in advance of the 70 seconds it was visible above this particular rebel-held area.

Russian Satellite Data and Public Presentation

On Monday, the Russian government, with almost every major global media outlet in attendance, released all of its air traffic data and satellite imaging data (in fact, only part of it) – all verifiable, including time stamps and supporting data. The entire content of the presentation was also handed over to the European authorities. The conclusions to be drawn from this are stunning, to say the least. Despite the public release of this information, US and British media outlets did report back to its people on these findings. They are as follows:

Minutes before the downing of MH17, the plane made a mysterious ‘Left Turn’ as it flew over the Donetsk area at approximately 5:20pm Moscow time, making a sharp 14km deviation, before attempting to regain its previous course before dropping altitude disappearing from radar at 5:23pm. As we previously pointed out, air traffic controllers in Kiev had already diverted MH17 200 miles further north into the target zone, so the question remains: was Kiev ATC also responsible for this final, fatal diversion, or is there another reason for this unusual turn (see ‘Mysterious Left Turn’, below)?

According to clear satellite images provided, on July 16th, the Ukrainian Army positioned 3-4 anti-aircraft BUK M1 SAM missile batteries close to Donetsk. These systems included full launching, loading and radio location units, located in the immediate vicinity of the MH17 crash site. One system was placed approximately 8km northwest of Lugansk. In addition, a radio location system for these Ukrainian Army missile batteries is situated 5km north of Donetsk. On July 17th, the day of the incident, these batteries were moved to a position 8km south of Shahktyorsk. In addition to this, two other radio location units are also identified in the immediate vicinity. These SAM systems had a range of 35km distance, and 25km altitude.

From July 18th, after the downing of MH17, Kiev’s BUK launchers were then moved away from the firing zone.

Unlike rebel fighters, the Ukrainian military is in possession of some 27 BUK missile systems capable of bringing down high-flying jets, and forensic satellite imagery places at least 3 of their launchers in the Donetsk region on the day of this tragedy. Yet, Washington and NATO will not inquire about the possibility that any of these system had targeted MH17.



And MUCH MORE......................

Read more: MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/


http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

Kiev Source: Ukraine Accidentally Shot Down MH17 During Exercises

new Saturday 26th July 2014 at 09:55 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2051-587x391.jpg


‘A source within the Ukrainian defense department claims that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot
down by Ukrainian troops during a military exercise in near Donetsk which took place on July 17.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise
of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking
and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source told RIA Novosti.

Although actual use of the rockets was not intended, they were accidentally fired off when two Sukhoi Su-25
combat aircraft flew parallel with but at a different altitude than the Boeing 777, claims the source. When the
three aircraft merged and became a single dot on the missile ‘s radar system, the Buk-M1 automatically chose
the larger target, leading to the demise of MH17.’

Read more: Kiev Source: Ukraine Accidentally Shot Down MH17 During Exercises


http://www.prisonplanet.com/kiev-source-ukraine-accidentally-shot-down-mh17-during-exercises.html

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

Obama’s Ukrainian Ploy Collapses; Ukraine Now Seeks Direct U.S. Bailout

new Saturday 26th July 2014 at 09:50 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-231-587x440.jpg



‘The Ukrainian leadership has resigned, because of their unwillingness to impose the IMF’s terms, which
would impoverish the population within months. That impoverishment would be extracted from the Ukrainian
public in order to repay the IMF’s loans, which had been skimmed off by Ukraine’s oligarch billionaires into
secret bank accounts in Switzerland and other tax-havens.’

Read more: Obama’s Ukrainian Ploy Collapses; Ukraine Now Seeks Direct U.S. Bailout

http://rinf.com/alt-news/featured/obamas-ukrainian-ploy-collapses-ukraine-now-seeks-direct-u-s-bailout/

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

AP Reporter Clashes Again with US State Dept ‘Is there a YouTube video you can back that up with?’

new Saturday 26th July 2014 at 08:53 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-426-587x308.jpg


=============================================================

Saturday 26th July 2014 at 09:57 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1908387_658542377572593_867404159703031222_n.jpg

[KiwiElf]

MH17 and America’s Deceitful Game
Friday, July 25th, 2014 | Posted by Gordon Duff

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/25/mh17-and-americas-deceitful-game/

America claims “evidence is being tampered with.” Who would know better than America? After 9/11, the evidence, not just the dirt itself, enriched with uranium and plutonium, taken to a landfill, but the scant remains of the twin towers, sold to China, never to be examined but in passing.

America is playing a double game, crying out about tampered evidence in order to maintain deniability when the evidence turns against them. There have been thousands of photos of the crash site of MH317 but, curiously no overhead photos of the wreckage field, covering more than a square mile.

Huge sections of wing, fuselage and interior, untouched and pristine, scatter the countryside. Secretary Kerry was silent when it was learned that the video Kiev had released of the crash had been fabricated. Fabricating a video is not “tampering” to Kerry.

WHAT AMERICA HAS TO HIDE

The large pieces of wreckage, untouched by flame, undamaged by missile fragments, real or imaginary, are “slam dunk” proof that MH17 was torn apart at 33,000 feet from the inside. You see, MH17 took off from Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam, a facility controlled by ICTS, a company established by former Israeli Shin Bet members. They have put bombs on planes before.

Back in 2009, a young learning disabled son of a wealthy Nigerian banker, close associate of the CIA and business partner with Israeli firms now tied to Boko Harum, landed in Schiphol Airport. There, he was met by ICTS security and taken through an aircrew security door so that he wouldn’t be held in immigration detention. You see, he had no passport, no visa, no luggage, no money and had not changed clothing nor bathed in weeks.

ICTS furnished young Umar Mutallab with a bomb, walked him through the airport, around security checkpoints and directly onto a US bound plane, seating him in exclusive VIP first class.

Back in 2009, when our Israeli friends placed a bomb on a Detroit bound plane, attorney Kurt Haskell was watching. He reported it to the FBI, especially how he saw ICTS personnel place Mutallab on the plane, helping him avoid security checkpoints. Haskell was an eye witness. Here is Haskell’s story:

“With jury selection set to begin in the Underwear Bomber Trial set to begin tomorrow, I’ve spent the evening reminiscing about Christmas Day 2009 and the 21 months since. The Underwear Bomber attack has fundamentally changed my life. Not in the way most would think, but it has destroyed any faith I’ve had in the U.S. Government, the media and this country as a whole. To say that I believe the government is corrupt and the media is complicit doesn’t fully explain my beliefs. Not only have I come to those conclusions, but I’ve witnessed that an ordinary person who sees something important can be silenced despite his efforts to spread the truth. Such is the Underwear Bomber case. I can do nothing but laugh at the TSA’s new policy of “If you see something say something.” That is exactly what I did, and not only did the U.S. Government not want to hear what I had to say, but it actively lied about it, attempted to get me to change my story, and hid, by withholding (secret government) evidence or putting a protective order on the evidence and nearly everything that would support my eyewitness account.”

This is the same America accusing others of withholding evidence. Should anyone be surprised when a plane leaves Schiphol Airport with a bomb on it? We saw America cover up 9/11. For those still in denial, the 2009 attempted terror bombing in Detroit should be enough.

But, it gets better. We are now told that “terrorists” are hiding the evidence. In today’s South China Post, a newspaper seemingly “Chinese” but in fact a CIA front, a highly biased and foundationless article attacking Russia was published. The photo they show are first responders in uniform, carrying body bags away from the scene, bodies that had, in fact, fallen a great distance from the crash site. You see, when a plane is destroyed by a “Schiphol bomb” at 33,000 feet, bodies aren’t conveniently “vaporized” as we saw with 9/11.

When the bodies aren’t picked up, the dead are disrespected. When they are picked up, “evidence is being tampered with.”

“WHO DUN IT”

The answer is easy. Terrorist crimes, as with any other crime, require “means, motive and opportunity.”

If Russia or Novorussian separatist downed the plane, something evidence at this point does not support, we see “means” and maybe even “opportunity,” something yet unproven. But there is no motive. When we look at a missile hit and look to the post-coup junta in Kiev, we have all three, means, motive and opportunity.

When we look at a bomb, the answer that fits the evidence, we only have to look to Schipol. There we find the Israeli backers of the Kiev junta, with a Gaza war to hide and wild conspiracy theories for the press and their political “creatures of the night.”

AS Kurt Haskell would tell you, they “do bombs” at Schipol. They did bombs in 2009, they put them on airliners. If they did it then, they are still doing it because the reason they did it then is the same reason they are doing it now. They have motive, tons of motive. Running security and with an established history of planting bombs on airliners, it is not a stretch to accuse them of doing it again. That’s opportunity, opportunity “in spaces.”

All that is left is to ask yourself, “could an Israeli security company come up with a bomb?” Then we only have to go back to 2009. Yes, that wasn’t a great bomb, but what bomb designed to fit in underwear is. This time they had an entire plane at their disposal.

Best of all, whatever is found, all they have to do is claim the evidence was tampered with. In fact they have already done so. Now we know why.

Gordon Duff is a Marine combat veteran of the Vietnam War that has worked on veterans and POW issues for decades and consulted with governments challenged by security issues. He’s a senior editor and chairman of the board of Veterans Today, especially for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”.

Short URL: http://www.veteranstoday.com/?p=312891

[Cidersomerset]

The David Icke Videocast: Problem-Reaction-Solution and Flight MH17


ksXpHsnpCmc

Published on 25 Jul 2014


The David Icke Videocast can be delivered to your email every Sunday.

[bogeyman]

Wait for the investigators to look at the evidence, then you will know. It is a political game at the moment, and point scoring.

[Hervé]

MH 17 Satellite Photo shows 30 Miles of Debris Field of Bodies (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/24/mh-17-satellite-photo-shows-30-miles-of-debris-field-of-bodies/)

By Stew Webb (http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/swebb)
Ex Special Forces Officer


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH17-malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-site.jpg (http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH17-malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-site.jpg)




Was it a Bomb that left 30 miles of Debris of the Malaysia Airliner? If it were a BUK Missile the plane would have exploded and hit the ground. Why did Bodies and luggage fall for 30 miles?

I commanded a HALO Detachment years ago. I made a 32K jump as part of a special project. I also jumped the SADM twice.

One must cover all skin from that altitude because of the cold. I had a NCO that did not do that, and had severe frostbite on the exposed flesh. That is over 3 minutes of free fall, most slowing down in the thickening air after terminal velocity.

My opinion is that the damage to the 777 was caused by an internal bomb. I could also have been a heavy duty ground to air missile. If the rear fuselage came off bodies would come out that were not restrained. They would tumble or spin and freeze. Freeze is blue. They would be strewn along the flight path of the aircraft. If living people came out, they would freeze and die, or if covered in some way, they would die from impact.

It would be interesting to see the imagery of the missile fired. It was shown on US TV from the side, but we know the reliability of Network news.

I have been looking for the picture of fused turbine blades in the exploded engine. That would be an anomaly.

If someone comes out of a plane at 33k feet, what effect will that have?

Would that lead to what people describe as bloated or blue?

Note the sat photo shows places where responders cross wheat fields to pick up bodies. Some may have been miles away…

Did Israel have Motive to blame Russia to get the world heat of their mass murders of the true Jews-Semites also known as Palestinians in the GAZA?
Who are the real Jews those who occupy Israel or GAZA?


New Genome Study Destroys Zionist Claims to Palestine (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/03/01/new-genome-study-destroys-zionist-claims-to-palestine/)
Israel hit with EU War Crimes Sanctions (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/07/20/israel-hit-with-eu-war-crimes-sanctions/)
Secret NSA Satellite Facility Located in Jerusalem (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/02/12/secret-nsa-satellite-facility-located-in-jerusalem/)
Are American Jews incubating another Hitler? (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/11/07/are-the-american-jews-incubating-another-hitler/)
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter approached MH17 (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/21/ukrainian-su-25-fighter-approached-mh17/)
The ECIPS Calls For Action Against War Crimes! (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/24/the-ecips-calls-for-action-against-war-crimes/)
AIPAC deploys its Senate 5th column for Israel (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/24/aipac-deploys-its-senate-5th-column-for-israel/)
Gaza-Who Will Speak for the Dead? (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/23/gaza-who-will-speak-for-the-dead/)
NEO-Cold Case…MH17 faint echos of KALoo7 Shootdown (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/23/neo-cold-case-mh17-faint-echos-of-kal007-shootdown/)
I’d fire rockets at Israel, if I lived in Gaza (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/23/id-fire-rockets-at-israel-if-i-lived-in-gaza/)
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter approached MH17 (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/21/ukrainian-su-25-fighter-approached-mh17/)
VT Education Series: Satellite Missile Detection Notes (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/21/vt-education-series-satellite-missile-detection-notes/)
Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/satellite-data-on-mh17-should-be-released-analyst/)

Veterans Today Radio News Reports July 23, 2014 Stew Webb Wednesdays 1-3pm Eastern Time

[Cidersomerset]

Maria Harf ....The 'Dumbest' blonde in Washington ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


State Dept finally admits humanitarian crisis in E.Ukraine, fails to prove artillery fire

FCOae9VHuzs

Published on 26 Jul 2014


Amid the violence in E. Ukraine, more people have been fleeing the region.
The latest UN report puts the number of refugees at 250 thousand people.
But the shocking numbers don’t convince everyone. RT’s Gayane Chichakyan reports.

[Cidersomerset]

Since we have been touching on Gaza and other related subjects on this thread
i'l add this poigniont report from vetern channel 4 reporter Jon Snow on his return,
and the horrors he witnessed on his short assignment.


The children of Gaza I Channel 4 News


ACgwr2Nj_GQ

Published on 26 Jul 2014


Jon Snow recounts the scene in Gaza's al-Shifa hospital, where
doctors struggle to treat adults and children wounded by Israeli attacks

[SilentFeathers]

We seen a lot of clips of civilians being interviewed etc pertaining to the MH17, they are just everyday people caught in the middle, try to remember their faces as most of them will likely be killed in the coming weeks and months.

This is nothing less than ethnic cleansing or yes, genocide, like whats going on in Gaza....same thing, different faces. Quite sickening.

Ukraine Is Launching an Offensive to Retake Donetsk (https://news.vice.com/article/ukraine-is-launching-an-offensive-to-retake-donetsk)

Donetsk residents flee Ukraine fighting (http://www.bayoubuzz.com/top-stories/item/713792-donetsk-residents-flee-ukraine-fighting)

If they start annihilating civilians in Donetsk (or any other city), Russia will be forced to respond. Putin is in a vice right now and a whole bunch of hands are squeezing it tighter, sooner or later he will snap.....and like I said earlier in this thread, out of all the worlds leaders he is about the most level headed and the most intelligent, which makes him a VERY dangerous opponent when the hammer comes down, and the hammer is coming down. I don't see him being as idiotic and reckless as these bloodthirsty greedy western leaders are...I'm sure he's already got a plan ready for just about everything.

I personally think we are seeing world war 3 in the making....

Added:

Interesting article:

MH17: Sacrificed Airliner. “The New Cold War” (http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-sacrificed-airliner-the-new-cold-war/5393458)

[Tesseract]

Maria Harf ....The 'Dumbest' blonde in Washington ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Not dumb, but a firm Zionist, and an all-knowing part of the propaganda machine. US Hegemony on the back of a brain-washed public is clearly her objective.

[sigma6]

What about all the people that died on this flight?
Have we all seen the return of all the bodies to the Netherlands?
And the respect they get at last, after all that's been happenning...
Let's not forget this please.

Sorry i don't post much like some of you do and it's been a while...
I just didn't want this topic to just be about the why's how's and etc...

It's about the people and all their loved ones...

English is not my first laungage? sorry.

Nope 80 bodies missing, that one Youtube that purposely flashed the double headed eagle and then there was the "make me want to cry" speech from that Dutch guy that "we should all screw Russia over" tells me that they are part of a satanic cult pulling another Sandy Hook, ie. If this was faked and if they put already dead bodies, then we need some players. People willing to (for a free house) say they lost a family member, for the elites this is like dropping a couple pennies in the well) Just like Sandy Hook.

And what if, just like Sandy Hook, those are all faked identities, like the fake toys and the fake passports. And who else would do this but families of these Freemason cults and Satanists. Let's face it, the Satanists are now being exposed and people are actually waking up and starting to take notice of them. And they are not as nice as all the TV media crap is trying to portray them (God have we descended into the toilet these last few decades) They may be feeling the pinch and mobilizing as well. So the PTB could have endless list of people willing to pretend they had family members that never existed, This is all possible because they control many government positions...

This is falling apart faster then any false flag in history. This is a good sign

[sigma6]

Maria Harf ....The 'Dumbest' blonde in Washington ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not dumb, but a firm Zionist, and an all-knowing part of the propaganda machine. US Hegemony on the back of a brain-washed public is clearly her objective.
She is dumb too! If she is willing to whore herself for that job... makes me wanna harf



Are American Jews incubating another Hitler?
Why would they have to go through the trouble, they could just call up one of the Rothschilds and ask where's the latest bastard child they sired...

[Cidersomerset]

This is falling apart faster then any false flag in history. This is a good sign

Its difficult to know what to believe especially for the ordinary mainstream viewer,
or our own friends and family . I knew all about propaganda and the art of
deception,which started with the Trojan Horse and was honed to a high degree in
WW11 with dummy Tanks , planes and even armies. Espionage and counter
espionage which carried on thru the cold war and still goes on with Prism and other
clandestine techniches

But with 9/11 and hologram tech. crisis actors. MK Ultra, Manchurian candidates,
super soldiers, and masses of corrupt/blackmailed officials and families placed in
strategic places including most of the US Presidents that are all related to each
other , then back to English and French royalty.......How is that possible in a so
called free democratic country like the American Dream was portrayed. Then
we learn in was set up by Masons and other elites from the start and infiltrated
by the Rothchilds and others later.

Anything s possible.......A lot is to do with Putin organising BRICS and other
economicthreats to the Western Rothchild and associates Empire. Like Sadam ,
Gadaffi and others leaders once propped up by the west when suited then
dispatched when surplus to need. or if they go rogue with their own ideas that are
counter to the cabal.


The black box's going to the UK is interesting, there are real good people like Dr.
Kelly , Robin Cook and many others that spoke out to there own cost and more will
speak out if they knew the truth. I cannot see the British government letting the
truth out , they will back Obamas stance on Russia. They may not blame Russia ,
but will probably fudge it and say either there was no conclusive data or they are
damaged somehow . Anyway we will find out in due course.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Talking of Sandy Hook there was an article on Davids site today....I almost posted
it as a thread but have not got round to it.


Sent worldwide, Shannon Hick’s ‘iconic’ Sandy Hook photo ‘was faked’

Saturday 26th July 2014 at 08:48 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-914-587x329.jpg


‘According to TIME, “At 10:09 am, 10 minutes after she climbed out of her vehicle,
she snapped the shutter on an elementary school class being led out of the school
by two Connecticut State Police officers.

‘I knew that, coming out of the building — as terrified as they were — those
children were safe,’ Hicks said, of the photograph soon to grace the front pages of
newspapers, magazines, and nearly every breaking news website around the
world. ‘I just felt that it was an important moment.’”

The only problem with this story is that it is false! We have a photograph of the
photographer taking the photograph! It was staged and Sandy Hook was a hoax,
which means that Shannon Hicks and The Newtown Bee were complicit in the fraud,
the full dimensions of which are becoming apparent.’

Read more: Sent worldwide, Shannon Hick’s 'iconic' Sandy Hook photo 'was faked'

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/16/wolfgang-halbig-sandy-hook-11000-page-script-ct-state-police-gave-false-affidavits/

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[sigma6]

Putin maintaining old fashion (orthodox) Christian values
while the US President is homosexual promoting president.

All the Bolshevik leaders that killed over 66 million people were JEWS in disguise
u7uWwZu2tas

There's your motive.

Another thought... What if this is all preparation for the inevitable economic slow down that is going to hit Western "democracies" They will be having severe problems maintaining the public sentiment. The leadership loyalty will be zero. So they have to build in propaganda today that it "was Russia's fault" The West needs a real war to write off debt or a cold war to justify their protectionist, police state economic fall. This is just laying out the carpet. And a big jockey for position last hurrah, role of the dice, what have they got to lose moment. Who knows if they are lucky they could hit this propaganda campaign out of the park and score.

[Cidersomerset]

Putin maintaining old fashion (orthodox) Christian values
while the US President is homosexual promoting president.

All the Bolshevik leaders that killed over 66 million people were JEWS in disguise


Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7uWwZu2tas



Yeah I heard it yesterday and posted a longer interview
with Texe and he raises good points......


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



QUOTE]It does seem Israel is connected to MH17, but speculation is all it's adding up too.
With Israel ramping up it's killing machine and the media focusing more there right now,
I don't believe it's an accident or coincidental that the masses (mindless minds) are being
steered drastically in that direction right now.
[/QUOTE]

According to Texe the US and Israel are behind the Ukrainian mess...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A bit biblical but this is at the heart of all this bollocks, and some elites follow
this like gospel ( so to speak ) and this may be why these events are being
manipulated into fulfilling prophecy......He explains how Israel and the US
organised and sponsored the 'Orange 'revolution and are controlling events
behind the scenes....

https://i0.wp.com/www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/khazaria.gif

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEXE MARRS - MYSTERY BABYLON LIVES! - JULY 19, 2014

W43rs-Oqc3g

Published on 19 Jul 2014


Ezekiel 38-39 prophesies that in the last days, Gog, demonic ruler of the land of Magog,
shall come against Israel, which is brought forth out of the nations. He shall come like a
storm and shall conquer this land of unwalled villages, and take them hostage

Who is Gog? Where is the land of Magog? Now, with new and astonishing archaeological
and genetic discoveries, we have amazing evidence that, in fact, Magog is situated in
Southern Russia, in the Caucusus, and Gog is the name of the great ruler of the Kingdom
of Khazaria. Khazaria is the land of the non-Semitic, Turkic peoples who falsely claim to be
Jews. From Khazaria, in the eight century, these pagan peoples, having converted to Judaism,
fled to Europe to escape invading Russian warriors.

In 1948, the Khazarians went on to Palestine, where they conquered the peaceful Palestinians
and set up a pretentious, new "Kingdom of Israel." The Khazarians, claiming to be "Jews," are
from Magog. Led by Satan's Gog, in the last days they are destined to plunge the entire world
into bloodshed, chaos, and war. Ezekiel 38-39 is fulfilled in front of our eyes! http://www.texemarrs.com/

[naste.de.lumina]

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iCcGRimq0Y0/U9FaJQPA0cI/AAAAAAAAO78/Gry1qWp1lT8/s1600/mh17+is+mh370.jpg

Full report (http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html)

[Cidersomerset]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

CHkvXsItodc



Dutch military police in Ukraine to investigate flight MH175 hours ago

Forty Dutch military police officers have arrived in east Ukraine hoping to
investigate the Malaysian airliner apparently shot down there on 17 July.

Pro-Russian separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine have been accused of
downing the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

All 298 people on board, including 193 Dutch nationals, died.

Tom Burridge reports.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28506109

[Cidersomerset]

Left in Lurch: Ukraine soldiers in despair without support and leadership

_v0hWhTddqY

Published on 27 Jul 2014


Almost 4 months since the start of the military operation in Ukraine, morale in the army
appears to be waning. Soldiers wounded on the frontline say their commanders are
neglecting them. RT's Roman Kosarev reports. READ MORE

[Cidersomerset]

MH17 HOAX: Crash Scene Evidence Reveals No Boeing-777 Engine

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 09:35 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2052-587x391.jpg


‘It’s now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid
Trident – a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.

How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy
Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now – the sensationalized downing of a Malaysian Airliner, MH-17,
as another in a long line of False Flags. ‘


qopnTeQUlUM


lGuJInTY1Ws


RT News


Ukraine will play host, but the US military will call the shots, in an upcoming
military exercise called Rapid Trident that will bring together some 1,300
international forces in Ukraine for a long-planned exercise.

Although the United States canceled Atlas Vision 2014, which was scheduled to
take place in July in the northeastern Russian city of Chelyabinsk, the Pentagon
says it will go ahead with plans for a multinational military exercise this summer in Ukraine.


Atlas Vision is a bi-lateral U.S-Russian Ground Forces exercise. The exercise will
consist of a battalion-level command post exercise/Computer Assisted exercise and
a platoon-level field training exercise.

Interesting how the media has erased the fact that Russia knows all about Rapid
Trident including MH-17 evidence “irregularities”.

More interesting is that Russia had planned to participate in one of these US-led
events – Atlas Vision – on their own soil. Meanwhile, investigators and bloggers
continue to get blind-sided by disinfo couched as insider “leaks” from allegedly
trusted sources.

No doubt that every player forecasting the “new Cold War” are completely informed
about the MH-17 hoax as integrated into a war games exercise.

When will investigators learn to look first, for the planned exercise as the pretext to
a hoax/False Flag as was the case in 9/11, Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon
Bombing.?

HOAX: Bogus Engine Debris at Alleged MH-17 Crash Site


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/MH-17-GE90-turbofan-engine-X-2-640x234.jpg
The huge, wide-body Boeing-777-200 is powered by one of the most powerful
turbofan engines in the world.

The General Electric GE90 engine has a diameter of 10.5 feet.

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA No mammoth GE90 turbofan engine parts can be
identified in crash scene photos. Instead, the engine parts all appear to originate
from a different type and design of aircraft. It is certain to say that engine parts in
the photographs could never have powered a Boeing 777 aircraft.

The crash of a giant B-777 falling from over 30,000 ft. altitude would be expected
to leave a large impact crater, yet the debris appears to be dumped on the ground
as if hauled in by truck.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Alleged-Crash-site-engine-debis-not-from-B-777-282x640.jpg


Alleged Crash site engine debis not from B-777

Click to Enlarge

Coconuts TV Reports:


“Michael Holmes of CNN shared an image on Twitter via his account @holmescnn of
a section of what appears to be a Malaysia Airlines jetliner on a grassy field. The
Malaysian flag is clearly depicted and the red and blue livery colours used by MAS
are also shown.”

The source of the images, a man identifying himself as a tourist guide / traveller /
photographer / former soldier from Slovenia, @MatevzNovak, has since posted
more photos – taken by a Nadezhda Chernetskaya – of what he claims to be the
crash site of Flight MH17 in Grabovo, Ukraine. (TRNS)




No evidence of Boeing-777 engines at crash site could conclude that neither MH-17
nor MH-370 were struck by a missile!

Vertical stabilizer at alleged crash site fails to match Boeing-777 profile specific to
9M-MRD alias flight MH-17


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Vertical-stabilizer-at-crash-site-no-match-for-9M-MRD-517x640.jpg

Vertical stabilizer at crash site no match for 9M-MRD

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mh-17-crash-scene-tail-number-both-photos-538x640.jpg


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Maylasia-MH-17-HOAX-320x309.jpg

Read more: MH17 HOAX: Crash Scene Evidence Reveals No Boeing-777 Engine


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/26/mh-17-hoax-crash-site-evidence-reveals-no-boeing-777-engine/

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

Washington Is Escalating the Orchestrated Ukrainian ‘Crisis’ to War

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 09:34 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-269-587x391.jpg


‘Twenty-two US senators have introduced into the 113th Congress, Second Session, a bill, S.2277, “To prevent
further Russian aggression toward Ukraine and other sovereign states in Europe and Eurasia, and for other purposes.
” The bill is before the Committee on Foreign Relations.

Note that prior to any evidence of any Russian aggression, there are already 22 senators lined up in behalf of
preventing further Russian aggression.

Accompanying this preparatory propaganda move to create a framework for war, hot or cold with Russia, NATO
commander General Philip Breedlove announced his plan for a deployment of massive military means in Eastern
Europe that would permit lightening responses against Russia in order to protect Europe from Russian aggression.’

Read more: Washington Is Escalating the Orchestrated Ukrainian 'Crisis' to War


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2052-587x391.jpg

[Cidersomerset]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 09:23 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/191242623.jpg


‘A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia
Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise
of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking
and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.’

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point,
the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they
became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger
target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical
exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route
from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

At the moment, an international team of 24 experts is investigating the plane crash. The B777-200 aircraft had a clean
maintenance record and was last checked on July 11 at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at Kuala Lumpur International Airport.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the city of Donetsk
in Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Kiev placed the blame on the independence supporters in eastern Ukraine
for shooting the plane down, but the latter insisted they did not have the means to shoot down an aircraft flying at
32,000 feet.



Read more: Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source


http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

Ukraine’s Army Fires Phosphorus Bombs at Donetsk – People’s Republic

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 09:18 By david-icke



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-816-587x455.jpg


yZLEQDMj7Zg



‘Ukrainian troops fired internationally banned phosphorus bombs at Donetsk and Mandrykino
in eastern Ukraine overnight, the Donetsk People’s Republic has said.

“Ukraine’s Army uses phosphorus munitions during the shelling of Donetsk, Mandrykino on July
26, 2014,” the DNR said in its Twitter microblog Saturday. A YouTube video confirms the claims.

A representative of Russia’s General Staff said Friday Moscow has evidence that Ukraine used
phosphorus bombs on populated areas in the country’s east. He added that the Ukrainian army
used phosphorous bombs in eastern Ukraine at least six times.’

Read more: Ukraine’s Army Fires Phosphorus Bombs at Donetsk – People’s Republic

http://www.prisonplanet.com/ukraines-army-fires-phosphorus-bombs-at-donetsk-peoples-republic.html

[sigma6]

‘A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia
Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

Given all the pointed pure BS rhetoric given by the US/Britain, Media Diarrhea, which is now going to be the Basis of a war with Russia inside Ukraine. (I see Ukraine splitting)

Why doesn't Russia just attach real and existing motives. In some ways the way they are leaking out the information so slowly it's almost like they are supporting the US propaganda? (Pieczenik Theory)



ie. Right after BRICS, which will result in Billions lost to the Federal Reserve which is hurting the Jewish Banking Families, who have been educating and training Jewish Ukrainians who became Right Sector who were the most capable culprits for the over 100 sniping deaths during the Coup of the illegitimately voted Ukrainian Government. ...

The argument of the West Ukes is they didn't vote for him. Then what is their argument for the Coup Government to bomb the East because they don't want to be part of an criminally sanctioned government? Ukraine must split. Let the Russians be Russians and let the remaining Ukrainians join the Bankrupted IMF/Nato/US/Israeli backed banking cabal. It's all a set up anyway isn't it?

How is the current government of Ukraine legitimate again? Because Yanukovich fled (knowing he would have been murdered like Saddam, Ghadaffy, etc...)? :confused:

USA!! USA!! USA!!

[Cidersomerset]

How is the current government of Ukraine legitimate again? Because Yanukovich fled (knowing he would have been murdered like Saddam, Ghadaffy, etc...)?

USA!! USA!! USA!!



David goes thru a lot of all this current 's---'....Individually these
events just seem like protracted chaos and local rivalries that brew
up from time to time, like all thru history and they all have friction
points. But this is bigger and the people manipulating and
pulling the strings Rothchild bankers etc and the dark forces behind
them have control of the main western Media and have targeted
Putin as the next sacrifice. Putin may also have been propped up
by the dark forces in the past as many leaders are, with or without
their knowledge.But as soon as they show signs of diverting from
their agendas they are usually gotton rid of......


David Icke on Red Ice Radio: Origins of Israel & New Mono World Order

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 10:15 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1015-587x440.jpg


‘Considered one of the classics of conspiracy research, David Icke has spent the last
quarter of a century unraveling the secrets of the universe, reality and the forces that
manipulate our world. After writing more than 20 books, David Icke has driven on with
his unrelentless investigation into subject areas that others don’t dare touch.

Icke shares his analysis of US occupation in the Middle East. He’ll also talk about ISIS,
with an alleged extremist Islamic agenda, yet silence from Israel. We’ll talk about the
genocide of Palestinians and the redrawing of the Middle East with Israel as the new dictator.’

David discusses the origins of Israel, which is based on a hoax. He’ll discuss events
leading up to the creation of the State of Israel. Then, we’ll talk about where the elite
want to take the world and the techniques they’re using to get there. Their techniques
include the destruction of nationhood and forced multiculturalism. Icke comments on
Europeans who are re-acting to preserve their nationhood, challenging the European
Union and fighting back. We’ll talk about how the elite are working hard to establish a
one world culture, a mono everything, through killing true diversity. Later, he’ll speak
on the inner core of Zionism that functions like a secret society. We also talk about how
young Jews are being programmed from birth and being used for a bigger strategy. At
the end we discuss how people are frightened into silence, sticking their heads in the
sand but this will not make the problems go away. Diversity of everything, including
power is needed.


Listen here …



http://rediceradio.net/radio/2014/RIR-140725-davidicke-low.mp3


http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2014/07/RIR-140725.php

[Cidersomerset]

" This interview will get you really angry at "Insanity Hannity " Guarenteed !!



Cenk Uygur Trashes ‘Pussy’ Hannity: ‘I’ll Kick His Ass All Day Long’

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 08:30 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-427-587x329.jpg

XJDndoGWL1c

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ceasefire Reveals Horrific Images Of Gaza Neighborhoods Reduced To Rubble By Israeli Airstrikes

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 07:28 By david-icke

NjP4WFXqcVs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The children of Gaza I Channel 4 News

p5I8qcdTGrc

Published on 26 Jul 2014


Jon Snow's moving message upon his return from Gaza.

[Billy]

Good in depth article here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag
July 25, 2014 By 21wire 115 Comments
21st Century Wire
SPECIAL REPORT
UPDATED

Until this past Monday, the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 17th, 2014, was a potential game changer for global geopolitics and the New Cold War. However, a funny thing happened on the way to the Kremlin…

In this report, we will lay out the facts based on a wide breadth of available information and data surrounding MH17. We will also present and give critique to Washington and Kiev’s “mountain of evidence” that has saturated US and European-based media coverage since the incident took place. 21WIRE has compiled this report with the help of many contributors and references from English-speaking media, as well as material translated from Russian and Ukrainian media sources, along with other historical references to provide context. Our objective is to get as close to the truth as possible. Although many revelations will appear to be self-evident, we still encourage the public to draw their own conclusions regarding this pivotal event.

There are other well-known anomalies surrounding this event which have been covered at 21WIRE, as well as connections to MH370, but for the purposes of this investigation we will focus on both factual and speculative evidence brought forth by the US, Ukraine and Russia.

As we will clearly demonstrate, the only wild conspiracy theories being pushed right now, are those coming out of the US State Department, and the government in Kiev, Ukraine, which are being repeated by CNN, BBC, FOX-NewsCorp, ABC, CBS and NBC…

The Brink of War

Last Monday morning was not a pleasant one for the US State Department. Russian officials surprised Washington and its NATO partners when it released all available satellite imagery and air traffic control data which was recorded in and around the final minutes of Flight MH17 – and presented it to the world media on live television. The data painted a very different picture, drawing contrasting conclusions to what Washington and Kiev officials had been disseminating via western media since July 17th. Following their presentation, Moscow handed its findings – air traffic data and time stamped satellite imagery – to European authorities. We will review those findings in detail later in this report. In stark contrast, US officials have been reluctant to do the same. Is Washington willing to share any object data or evidence to the public, or is it only interested in sharing that which somehow fits into the same predetermined narrative it stood by on July 17th, one which already assigned guilt to both rebel fighters in eastern Ukraine and Russia?

We hope that political leaders and media organizations in the US and Europe will take the time to consider all available information, rather than simply repeat and spin what is bouncing around the media echo chamber. It’s also crucial to understand the geopolitical context in which this incident has occurred in order to discover who really possessed the motive, and the means to destroy this passenger aircraft, and which parties stand to benefit most from such an international incident.

After reviewing the evidence, all indicators points to the downing of MH17 as a highly coordinated, but failed false flag event.

MH17: A Doomed Flight Path

A Malaysian Airlines spokesman has already confirmed that, for some unknown reason, Kiev-based Ukrainian Air Traffic Control (ATC) ordered MH17 off of its original flight path along the international air route, known as L980.

Most likely, this order was given to pilots while MH17 was still in Polish air space. L980 is one of the most popular and most congested air routes in the world, as well as a key link between major international hubs in Europe, like London Heathrow, Amsterdam Schiphol, and Frankfurt, and Asian destinations, like Singapore, Mumbai, Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur.

As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-known dangerous area by now – one that’s hosted a number of downed military craft over the previous 3 weeks.

Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine, confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto. Data on all airline flight records can be found here.

The BBC reported on July 17th: “Ukraine’s SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.”

Independent investigators are worried that ATC audio records of the MH17 flight appear to have been confiscated by the Kiev government. No reason has been given for this loss of transparency, but not a word from Washington regarding this cover-up of crucial evidence.

Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? To be sure, the order to change the flight path did not come from Eurocontrol, but rather from ATC in Kiev.

Clue: British media run interference by conjuring a “Storm”

Soon after the incident, British news outlets began floating the story - without evidence, that MH17 was diverted to “avoid thunderstorms in southern Ukraine”. This was also placed on Wikipedia at the same time. Nico Voorbach, who is Dutch, is president of the European Cockpit Association, and was the man used to nudge out this talking point. Voorbach casually slides this crucial fabrication out there, telling The Guardian of all papers, “I heard that MH17 was diverting from some showers as there were thunderclouds”.

The only problem is that Malaysian Airlines immediately refuted this in a report from Malaysia News:

“MAS operations director Captain Izham Ismail has also refuted claims that heavy weather led to MH17 changing its flight plan (…) There were no reports from the pilot to suggest that this was the case,” Izham said.

What is significant, however, is that the Western media acknowledged that the change in the flight path did occur, indicating that the alleged “heavy weather” narrative is a fabrication designed to distract, and obscure the fact that MH17′s course was indeed divert into the war zone that day.
Global Research clarifies this confusing issue:

“The route over Ukrainian airspace where the incident occurred is commonly used for Europe to Asia flights. A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident, as were a number of other flights from other carriers in the days and weeks before. Eurocontrol maintains records of all flights across European airspace, including those across Ukraine.”

“What this statement confirms is that the MH17 ‘s “usual flight path” was similar to the flight paths of some 150 international flights which cross Eastern Ukraine on a daily basis. According to Malaysian Airlines “The usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions (that approved flight path is indicated in the maps below).”

The regular flight path of MH17 (and other international flights) over a period of ten days prior to July 17th (day of the disaster), crossing Eastern Ukraine in a southeasterly direction is across the Sea of Azov.

The Times of India reported this: “Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called “a direct routing”. This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. “Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal,” said an airline source.”

UPDATE TBC: A number of bloggers have reported that the past flights on FlightRadar and FlightAware were changed between July 24-25th, the new “old flights” were placed over the Donetsk People’s Republic instead of the flights going further south. This does not jibe with what was reported last week by researcher Vagelis Karmiros using data from flight-tracking website Flightaware and published on a number established sites like Zero Hedge. Stay tuned here for updates.

The Event

The fatal event occurred somewhere in the interval between 17:21:28 and 17:22:30 Moscow Time. The exact time of the crash is believed to be at 5:23pm. The last available geographic coordinates can be found here on Flight Radar24:


Weather and Visibility Factor

Kiev-based air traffic controllers not only led MH17 right over its alleged ‘target zone’ in Eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, but also helped make it visible.

Although weather data online is all but unavailable for the area of Donetsk, Ukraine for July 17th, conditions are evident by numerous videos depicting the crash and crash site in the aftermath – it was cloudy and overcast, with more visibility above the cloud canopy. This factor is important because at its cruising altitude of approximately 33,000 feet (10,000 meters), the airliner would not be visible from the ground in the rebel-held area where Washington is insisting a SAM missile was launched. Why Kiev air traffic controllers order MH17 to suddenly drop its altitude, from 35,000 feet to around 33,000 feet, just before the plane’s demise is unknown for sure, but it would have been near impossible for the alleged rebel gunman occupying this relatively small rebel-held patch of land to make a visual sighting of MH17 and acquire the target during the 1-2 minute window they would have had (assuming they were even in possession of the BUK missile system).


The Los Angeles Times reports:

“Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was cruising just 1,000 feet above restricted airspace when it was struck by a missile in Ukraine’s Donetsk region, according to aviation and intelligence officials.

“Despite ongoing violence in eastern Ukraine, including the recent downing of two military aircraft, Ukrainian aviation officials had closed the region’s airspace only below 32,000 feet in altitude.

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was cruising just 1,000 feet above restricted airspace (33,000 ft) when it was struck by a missile in Ukraine’s Donetsk region, according to aviation and intelligence officials.”

To date, Kiev has refused to acknowledge or explain why the plane was moved into position in this way. Moreover, Interfax news agency reported that Ukraine’s SBU security service confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew immediately after the incident.

The probability that this is all an ‘unfortunate coincidence’ reduces to near zero when one considers the air traffic data and Kiev’s denial of the close proximity of its Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet in pursuit of MH17 minutes before the crash (see ‘Aircraft in the Vicinity’ below).

Small Rebel Target Window

Much has been made by the US and its media of MH17 being shot down and crashing in “the rebel-held area”, but few are aware of just how small the said area actually is. The Ukrainian military had already isolated the rebel area which Kiev and Washington insist a rebel-controlled BUK SAM missile battery had fired on the passenger jet. The actual size of this rebel-held patch is only 50 miles wide, with MH17 approaching on a southeastern route over Horlivka, the frontline of this rebel-held zone, towards Snezhnoye (Snizhne). Cruising at 580 mph (933 kmph), MH17 would have only been visible for a very short time – just over 1 minute (if Kiev had not ordered MH17 to alter its course and altitude then it would not have been visible at all), from the vantage point of the alleged rebel firing position. According the Janes Defense, the alleged culprit – an SA-11 (NATO code name) or ‘BUK’ missile system, requires 5 minutes set-up active targeting, followed by an additional 22 seconds ‘reaction time’ for target acquisition and firing. As the MH17 was only visible for 70 seconds above this rebel-held area surrounding Grabovo, unless the alleged rebel firing position was specifically tracking MH17 long before it entered the rebel-held airspace and could distinguish it from other military civilian aircraft also in the general vicinity, Washington’s theory and Kiev’s accusation – that rebels shot down this aircraft becomes even weaker.

Considering these factors, the probability increases greatly that targeting MH17 would have had to be premeditated far in advance of the 70 seconds it was visible above this particular rebel-held area.

Russian Satellite Data and Public Presentation

On Monday, the Russian government, with almost every major global media outlet in attendance, released all of its air traffic data and satellite imaging data (in fact, only part of it) – all verifiable, including time stamps and supporting data. The entire content of the presentation was also handed over to the European authorities. The conclusions to be drawn from this are stunning, to say the least. Despite the public release of this information, US and British media outlets did report back to its people on these findings. They are as follows:

Minutes before the downing of MH17, the plane made a mysterious ‘Left Turn’ as it flew over the Donetsk area at approximately 5:20pm Moscow time, making a sharp 14km deviation, before attempting to regain its previous course before dropping altitude disappearing from radar at 5:23pm. As we previously pointed out, air traffic controllers in Kiev had already diverted MH17 200 miles further north into the target zone, so the question remains: was Kiev ATC also responsible for this final, fatal diversion, or is there another reason for this unusual turn (see ‘Mysterious Left Turn’, below)?

According to clear satellite images provided, on July 16th, the Ukrainian Army positioned 3-4 anti-aircraft BUK M1 SAM missile batteries close to Donetsk. These systems included full launching, loading and radio location units, located in the immediate vicinity of the MH17 crash site. One system was placed approximately 8km northwest of Lugansk. In addition, a radio location system for these Ukrainian Army missile batteries is situated 5km north of Donetsk. On July 17th, the day of the incident, these batteries were moved to a position 8km south of Shahktyorsk. In addition to this, two other radio location units are also identified in the immediate vicinity. These SAM systems had a range of 35km distance, and 25km altitude.


Continue reading here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

Peace.

[Hervé]

Censorship or error? Internet criticism for BBC removal of MH17 report (http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/)

Published time: July 25, 2014 11:01
Get short URL (http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/)


http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2a/d7/40/00/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-25_v_12.19.34.si.png


An image grab taken from a video uploaded on YouTube.


BBC Russian has come under fire from internet users after deleting its report on the MH17 crash for not meeting ‘editorial values.’ The reporter questioned says that local militia fired the missile, with locals talking about Ukrainian army planes.

The report on the Malaysian plane tragedy by BBC Russian correspondent Olga Ivshina was released on July 23. She interviewed local witnesses who told her that they saw military aircraft in the sky before the incident.

“And there was another aircraft, a military one, beside it [the Malaysian plane]. Everybody saw it,” said one witness.

“It was flying under it [the Malaysian plane], we could see it. It was going underneath the civilian one,” added another.

The report contained a soundbite of an SBU official, saying that the aircraft was shot down by a Buk missile.

“This was a BUK M1 system which shot the aircraft down. It came to Ukraine early in the morning on the 17 July. It was delivered by a tow truck to the city of Donetsk,” Vitaly Naida said.

“After that, it was redeployed from Donetsk, as part of a column of military equipment, to the city of Torez, to Snezhnoye, and to Pervomaisk.”


RZ8sjMWhl-4
Ivshina also tried to find a place depicted on photos provided by Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) which, in their opinion, prove that the Boeing was shot down by a Buk missile system by self-defense forces. She found the place which she assumes is the spot based on landscape characteristics.

“It must be noted that, in an area where fighting continues almost unabated, there is a coalmine and also the Saur-Mogila memorial nearby. It turns out that the smoke could have been coming from any of these locations,” she says in her piece to camera.

Ivshina claims she didn’t see any traces of Buk missiles and says that neither did the local residents.

In the meantime, the commander of local self-defense forces in the city of Snezhnoe, in the Donetsk Region told Ivshina that they have no weaponry capable of shooting down a jet fighter flying at high altitude.

“They [Kiev troops] use these civilian aircraft to hide behind,” he told Ivshina. However, he added that if self-defense troops had such a weapon, then they would have tried to down the jets.

In the meantime, the piece doesn’t draw any conclusions about who was behind the plane crash.

Report which didn’t meet “the editorial values of the BBC”
As soon as the report was published on the BBC website, it was immediately deleted. “Document is not available”said (http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/multimedia/2014/07/140722_v_mh17_buk_hunt.shtml) the page.

The video of Ivshina’s report, released on YouTube, was repeatedly deleted, according to YouTube users.

“Video Deleted YouTube,” read the description.

The deleted page immediately sparked the attention of social media. The report itself wasn’t deleted. The bloggers and twitter users accused the BBC of censorship.

“Why are they [BBC] deleting this video?” wrote one YouTube user. “They [BBC] are standing for democracy and the freedom of speech or those who deleted the video, don’t need truth?”

On Thursday, Yan Leder, a managing editor from the Russian service at BBC explained that the report was removed as it contained “mistakes.”

He added (http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/blogs/2014/07/140724_blog_editors_bbc_story_rework.shtml) that the report had “imperfect structure” and “incomplete compliance of the editorial values of BBC.”

“Unfortunately in this case the report wasn’t submitted to BBC standard editorial analysis. As a result, there were several omissions [in the report],” he added.

According to Leder, the correspondent should have asked the witnesses “specifying questions” in response to their accusations and include “experts’ opinion in her report.”

“That’s why we are modifying the material so that it would (sic) meet the editorial standards of BBC.”

Leder added that Ivshina’s report will soon be published on the BBC website.
However, the explanations from the BBC Russian chief apparently didn’t satisfy readers.

The bloggers believe that the reasons for removing the article might have been the interviews with local witnesses, who said that the Kiev military were using civil jets as cover, and the statements from self-defense forces who say they don’t have missiles capable of hitting targets at high altitude.

“I have been with you [BBC] for 15 years and that case is disgusting,” said one user.
Another criticized the BBC of being biased.

Yet another reader queried what specifying questions should the women have been asked? They had simply stated that they had seen a military jet near the Boeing?

The reader went on to assert that if these interviews are deleted as a result of these corrections, then the BBC will be guilty of non-professionalism and weakness.

[Hervé]

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/MH-17-GE90-turbofan-engine-X-2-640x234.jpg
The huge, wide-body Boeing-777-200 is powered by one of the most powerful
turbofan engines in the world.

The General Electric GE90 engine has a diameter of 10.5 feet.

[...]
****************************************************************
See post # 581 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856876&viewfull=1#post856876) (<---) for that one.

MH017 -9M-MRD was equipped with Rolls-Royce engines.


****************************************************************


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Vertical-stabilizer-at-crash-site-no-match-for-9M-MRD-517x640.jpg

Vertical stabilizer at crash site no match for 9M-MRD
No wonder it's a no match:


http://rt.com/files/opinionpost/2a/dd/00/00/rtr3tqq7.jpg
An armed member of self-defenses forces stands guard at the site of the crash of the Il-76 Ukrainian army transport plane in Luhansk June 14, 2014. (Reuters / Shamil Zhumatov


As for the above, this is the "vertical stabilizer"... Malaysian airlines logo included...


http://imguol.com/c/noticias/2014/07/17/17jul2014---imagens-mostram-os-destrocos-do-voo-mh17-da-malaysia-airlines-que-caiu-com-295-pessoas-a-bordo-na-ucrania-na-regiao-de-fronteira-com-a-russia-1405618478933_1024x558.jpg

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980w/public/2014/07/19/tpbje2014071900f_44432409.jpg?itok=Nc3m51BV




... and this is the part of the fuselage that fits underneath it:
... [correction: piece of door above left wing]:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pwYtwlcf-Jt-vlKB7qUYydhziC-SCTO43OL2YeC75vUp4OJ6Y0iAQye-GkuFPg2zk5WCpslhjb8vn1h6JDcMzMXOO_oml7yL3rHrtk5uKmb4/MH-17-334.jpg?psid=1



Seems like the noise to signal ratio is dramatically increasing here...

Unless UFOs are involved in making human bodies to rain like fish from the sky... that's a tough one to fake!

PS: that plane really did break apart very high up in the sky!

[araucaria]

http://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2014/07/27/vol-mh-17-l-australie-envoie-des-policiers-armes-pour-proteger-les-enqueteurs_4463397_3210.html
Intense fighting near the crash site, foreign investigators cancel their trip
Machine translation:

Intense fighting near the crash site of the MH 17 in Ukraine

The AFP and Reuters with Monde.fr | 07/27/2014 at 7:05 • Updated 7/27/2014 at 2:29 p.m.
Subscribe
from € 1 comment Sort

Share facebook twitter google + linkedin pinterest
The Ukrainian authorities were still searching the bodies of passengers of MH 17 July 26.
Fighting raged Sunday, July 27 near the crash site of flight MH 17 in eastern Ukraine, forcing the Dutch and Australian officers who had to go to cancel their travel in this pro-Russian separatists controlled by area .

A cease-fire right at the edge where the recovered wreckage was decided between Ukrainian armed forces and rebel pro-Russian, but gunfire were heard 1 km of the site, Sunday afternoon. There was black smoke and people fled. A point near rebel control was abandoned.

POLICE IN LIEU OF THEIR FOREIGN TRAVEL

Ten days after the crash of the Boeing 777 Malaysia Airlines which provided the Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur connecting with 298 people on board, body parts and debris were still scattered on the site that inspectors had only access limited.

Thirty forensic experts and unarmed Dutch police and Australia were about to visit the site Sunday morning, but decided against it for safety reasons.

"The fighting continues. We can not take risks, said Alexander Hug, head of the OSCE mission on site. The situation in safety on the road to the site and on the site is unacceptable for an unarmed observer mission. "They might try to get there Monday.

The Dutch Ministry of Justice, for its part, stressed that there was no "safe access" to their experts, who will yet trester in Donetsk regional capital.

MALAYSIA GOT ACCESS TO THE SITE

Shortly before the renewed tensions, the Malaysian government announced an agreement with the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine on the deployment of an international police mission to secure the site and allow an independent investigation.

This mission will consist of the number of Malaysian police who leave Wednesday 68 Kuala Lumpur for the site as well as Dutch and Australian forces, both of which have taken a heavy toll each having lost in the drama and 28 193 of their nationals has announced the Malaysian government.

DIFFICULT CONDITIONS FOR INVESTIGATION

Dutch and Australian troops for several days on standby to go to Ukraine. The Netherlands are responsible for victim identification process and leading the investigation into the causes of the plane crash killed by a missile.

A series of factors led Kiev and Westerners to point the finger pro-Russian rebels and their patrons in the Kremlin. A Dutch forensic team had already visited the site, but no forensic investigating, for safety reasons.

Many bodies have been taken to the Netherlands, where the first victim was identified Saturday, but 71 are still missing.

[SilentFeathers]

I'm finding this a bit hard to believe and quite far fetched....it's rather a bit convincing but I'm not getting it. Why would they fake the 777 with another smaller jet? makes no sense.....and where did the MH17 Boeing 777 go???? Where did all the people come from that fell through peoples roofs and scattered the debris field?

I admit its possible MH17 could be now sitting in a hanger next to MH370, but I personally doubt it.


MH17 HOAX: Crash Scene Evidence Reveals No Boeing-777 Engine

new Sunday 27th July 2014 at 09:35 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2052-587x391.jpg


‘It’s now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid
Trident – a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.

How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy
Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now – the sensationalized downing of a Malaysian Airliner, MH-17,
as another in a long line of False Flags. ‘


qopnTeQUlUM


lGuJInTY1Ws


RT News


Ukraine will play host, but the US military will call the shots, in an upcoming
military exercise called Rapid Trident that will bring together some 1,300
international forces in Ukraine for a long-planned exercise.

Although the United States canceled Atlas Vision 2014, which was scheduled to
take place in July in the northeastern Russian city of Chelyabinsk, the Pentagon
says it will go ahead with plans for a multinational military exercise this summer in Ukraine.


Atlas Vision is a bi-lateral U.S-Russian Ground Forces exercise. The exercise will
consist of a battalion-level command post exercise/Computer Assisted exercise and
a platoon-level field training exercise.

Interesting how the media has erased the fact that Russia knows all about Rapid
Trident including MH-17 evidence “irregularities”.

More interesting is that Russia had planned to participate in one of these US-led
events – Atlas Vision – on their own soil. Meanwhile, investigators and bloggers
continue to get blind-sided by disinfo couched as insider “leaks” from allegedly
trusted sources.

No doubt that every player forecasting the “new Cold War” are completely informed
about the MH-17 hoax as integrated into a war games exercise.

When will investigators learn to look first, for the planned exercise as the pretext to
a hoax/False Flag as was the case in 9/11, Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon
Bombing.?

HOAX: Bogus Engine Debris at Alleged MH-17 Crash Site


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/MH-17-GE90-turbofan-engine-X-2-640x234.jpg
The huge, wide-body Boeing-777-200 is powered by one of the most powerful
turbofan engines in the world.

The General Electric GE90 engine has a diameter of 10.5 feet.

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA No mammoth GE90 turbofan engine parts can be
identified in crash scene photos. Instead, the engine parts all appear to originate
from a different type and design of aircraft. It is certain to say that engine parts in
the photographs could never have powered a Boeing 777 aircraft.

The crash of a giant B-777 falling from over 30,000 ft. altitude would be expected
to leave a large impact crater, yet the debris appears to be dumped on the ground
as if hauled in by truck.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Alleged-Crash-site-engine-debis-not-from-B-777-282x640.jpg


Alleged Crash site engine debis not from B-777

Click to Enlarge

Coconuts TV Reports:


“Michael Holmes of CNN shared an image on Twitter via his account @holmescnn of
a section of what appears to be a Malaysia Airlines jetliner on a grassy field. The
Malaysian flag is clearly depicted and the red and blue livery colours used by MAS
are also shown.”

The source of the images, a man identifying himself as a tourist guide / traveller /
photographer / former soldier from Slovenia, @MatevzNovak, has since posted
more photos – taken by a Nadezhda Chernetskaya – of what he claims to be the
crash site of Flight MH17 in Grabovo, Ukraine. (TRNS)




No evidence of Boeing-777 engines at crash site could conclude that neither MH-17
nor MH-370 were struck by a missile!

Vertical stabilizer at alleged crash site fails to match Boeing-777 profile specific to
9M-MRD alias flight MH-17


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Vertical-stabilizer-at-crash-site-no-match-for-9M-MRD-517x640.jpg

Vertical stabilizer at crash site no match for 9M-MRD

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mh-17-crash-scene-tail-number-both-photos-538x640.jpg


http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Maylasia-MH-17-HOAX-320x309.jpg

Read more: MH17 HOAX: Crash Scene Evidence Reveals No Boeing-777 Engine


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/26/mh-17-hoax-crash-site-evidence-reveals-no-boeing-777-engine/

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[KiwiElf]

Thanks Cider.... Interesting... I'm glad I'm not the only one who initially thought that about the engines not matching a 777... (refer back to my post #574...) Amzer Zo provided other pics showing intake turbines (detached from the main engine cores) which appear to be of the right size tho - as for the various bits of the engine debris... it needs an expert to identify them ;)

[Hervé]

Crash sites:


https://progresismohumano.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/mh17-1.jpg

http://images.teinteresa.es/mundo/Desvelan-nuevas-fotos-avion-MH-17_TINIMA20140723_0102_5.png

http://www.abc.net.au/news/linkableblob/5616846/data/custom-940-mh17-satellite-photo-of-mh17-primary-and-secondary-c-data.jpg

http://www.todayonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/photo_gallery_image_lightbox/public/photos/43_images/satellite-secondary-1-data.jpg?itok=Iq_OTfMD

[Billy]

continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

From July 18th, after the downing of MH17, Kiev’s BUK launchers were then moved away from the firing zone.

Unlike rebel fighters, the Ukrainian military is in possession of some 27 BUK missile systems capable of bringing down high-flying jets, and forensic satellite imagery places at least 3 of their launchers in the Donetsk region on the day of this tragedy. Yet, Washington and NATO will not inquire about the possibility that any of these system had targeted MH17.

Watch the official video here:



This is a definitive smoking gun: why did the Ukrainian Army move these short-range anti-aircraft SAM missile batteries into position on July 16-17th – to an interior region of East Ukraine where it’s known that the rebel resistance possess no air crafts whatsoever? Not surprisingly, both the US and Kiev have not answered that difficult question, perhaps for obvious reasons.

In addition, the Ukrainian Army’s radio location traffic near Donetsk peaked on the 16th and 17th, including a total of 9 separate radio location systems active. On the 18th and 19th of July, radio location traffic from these stations dropped sharply, down to 4 stations. If, as Washington/Kiev claims, rebels fired a BUK missile at MH17, then the rebel radar location signals would be clearly noted and verifiable on the day; only, they are not.

MH17-MAP
All Aircraft in the Vicinity

Between 5pm-6pm Moscow Time on July 17th, the following aircraft have been identified in the general vicinity of MH17 on its course heading to its fatal destination of Grabovo:

1. Boeing 772 – traveling southeast from Copenhagen to Singapore at 5:17pm
2. Boeing 778 – traveling southeast from Paris to Taipei at 5:24pm
3. Boeing 778 – traveling northwest from Delhi to Birmingham circa 5:20pm
4. Boeing 777 – Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 at 5:17pm
5. Ukrainian Fighter Jet (confirmation of model TBC) appears on radar, trailing MH17 at same altitude, est. 4km behind it at 5:21pm

Note: the pilots and passengers of Singapore Airlines Flight SIA351 were close enough to have visually observed, at high altitude, the demise of MH17.

At 5:20pm MH17 began to abruptly lose speed, eventually slowing to 124mph (200kmph). About this time, possibly an Su-25 Ukrainian fighter jet appears on ATC radar climbing in the direction of MH17, before trailing MH17 on the same flight path approximately 3-5km behind MH17, rapidly approaching the same flight level - only minutes before MH17 disappeared on radar. Note that a Ukrainian fighter would not have been visible on ATC radar before it broke the ATC long-range standby radar tracking ceiling of 5km in altitude. Civilian ATC radar would not be able to identify this Su-25 as military because no secondary detection system is mounted – typical for military aircraft. Over the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area.

Note also that the Su-25 can be armed with air-to-air R-60 missiles with a range of up to 5km-12km, but as 21WIRE has discovered, the Su-25 is not the only combat aircraft the Ukrainian Air Force has in its possession. On June 4, 2014, Janes Defense reported that Kiev have recently returned to service two other higher performance fighters, including the Su-27 ‘Flanker’ and the MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters. The altitude ceiling performance characteristics of all in-service Ukrainian fighters are as follows:

Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ fighter – Ceiling: 23,000 ft/ 7,000 m, or up to 32,800 ft/ 10,000 m (depending aircraft modifications)
Su-27 ‘Flanker’ fighter – Ceiling: 64,000 ft/ 19,000 m
MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ jet – Ceiling: 59,000 ft/ 18,000 m
Su-24 ‘Fencer’ fighter – Ceiling: 36,000 ft/ 11,000 m, or up to 57,400 ft/ 17,500 m (depending on variations of turbo intake)

Although the exact altitude position of MH17 is not yet know for every given second of its final minutes, it’s clear that a Ukrainian combat jet was in its shadow. Suffice to say, Kiev had a number of combat aircraft capable of engaging MH17 at within a wide range of altitudes, as well as firing air-to-air missile at short range (3-5km)either upwards, or downward angles using laser guided targeting which is standard on many of these models.

WATCH VIDEO:

Another Smoking Gun: Kiev government officials insisted on July 17th that, “No military aircraft were available in the region”. Based on available data detailed above, this appears to be a lie, indicating that a cover-up was taking place.

Again, it’s important to note here that at the moment when MH17 was allegedly was hit for the first time, at around 5:23pm Moscow time, the passenger jet was also within the range of several Ukrainian BUK batteries deployed close to Donetsk and as well as the Ukrainian Army’s BUK system positioned on the day just 8km south of Shakhterskoye, only a few miles from the eventual crash site at Grabovo.


IMAGE: A Ukrainian military Su-25 fighter jet carries air-to-air missiles, as do the Su-27 ‘Flanker’, and the MIG-29 Folcrum Fighter.

MH17′s Mysterious Left Turn

On passing glance, this seemingly minor, yet unexplained event doesn’t appear to be significant, but as is often the case, the devil is in the detail.

Again, was Kiev ATC also responsible for MH17′s final and fatal diversion from its course, or is there another reason for what appears to be an evasive maneuver?

One very real possibility for MH17 losing being diverted 14km to the left is that its GPS or navigation system was being jammed. US-NATO forces happened to be conducting an electronic warfare exercise in the Black Sea on July 17th (see ‘SEA BREEZE 2014′, below). In addition to this possibility, all Boeing jets (except Germany’s Lufthansa fleet) are equipped with a remote override that can be accessed by authorities in certain foreign countries, one being the United States. Although not publicly acknowledged until recently, Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot (BUAP) systems have been standard since the late 1990′s, apparently designed to take control of a commercial aircraft away from the pilot or flight crew, chiefly in the event of a terrorist incident.

Another possible explanation for this crucial event in the timeline is that MH17 was hit, or damaged, taking an emergency 180º left turn for 14km, before disappearing completely off of radar. This appears to be the case. On July 23rd, Anna-News published an interview with retired Russian Air Force colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) a frequent military commentator on Ukraine’s Civil War.

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

“When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and ordered the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing’s emergency landing. A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.”
21WIRE spoke to former Czech diplomat and political analyst, Vladimir Suchan, who puts Zhilin’s comments into context of what was happening militarily at the time of the crash. Suchan explains, “If MH17 was hit right over the frontline over Snezhnoye, this would have placed the timing and location of the intended downing and crash site to either the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, or much closer to the border between Russia and Ukraine where the “securing of the site” would allow lifting the strategic encirclement of the Ukrainian troops in the south and thus, on top of other objectives, saving Kiev’s armed forces from its first major military defeat.” (see ‘Military All-Out Offense’ section below)

If, indeed MH17 was struck by an air-to-air missile at that time, a distress call may have been sent to Kiev ATC, but as yet, Kiev officials may be reluctant to share, or release the entirety of its communications from July 17th.

At the time of this report being filed at 21WIRE, a second source to verify this testimony is not presently available. Zhilin’s account certainly makes sense when placed next to all ATC and satellite data released by Moscow. However, flight recorder information and data from MH17′s black boxes would certainly be able to corroborate this timeline of events, and one hopes that Great Britain’s predetermined political stance against Russia does not prevent Downing Street, or MI5 Intelligence Services from releasing the black box information in its entirety and more importantly, a full and unedited disclosure to the media. More than likely, the BBC will have first access to this release, and how the BBC report their findings will be very telling.

Above, is one possible map of MH17 final minutes, as calculated from one source of available public data, available here: http://nikolay-istomin.livejournal.com/3057934.html.

This account is also consistent with the location of key pieces of wreckage scattered over the wider crash site radius. It shows M17 turning back on itself, after being struck initially. If this was the final path, then it completely disapproves the US (US State Department) conspiracy theory that a rebel-controlled BUK missile hit the plane head-on from Snezhnoye (Snizhne). This U-turn then also helps explain why Kiev’s first “leaked conversation of the rebels” (see ‘Kiev’s Botch Social Media Audio’ below) tried to place the rebel’s BUK battery at a completely different location in Debaltzevo, a few kilometers northwest of the main crash site at Grabovo. However, that would not explain the U-turn, which they tried so much to conceal – for it points to the Ukrainian jet fighter.

As part of their PR damage-control exercise, Washington released this Google Map-style graphic on Tuesday July 22nd, illustrating its theory that the rebel missile battery was now located in Snezhnoye:

26604

Incredibly, Washington’s latest evidence/theory, depicted above, put their alleged rebel firing position in an entirely new spot – at Snezhnoye, and this now contradicts other ‘social media’ items being held-up by John Kerry and President Obama in their “mountain of evidence” (see ‘More Falsified and Sloppy ‘Evidence’ Supplied by SBU’, below).

The irony of this somehow escaped US State Dept. Deputy Spokesperson, Marie Harf during her globally televised ‘intelligence’ briefing on Tuesday (see ‘US Now in Full Retreat and Damage-Control Mode’, below).

Almost certainly, the US government already has a comprehensive communications, satellite and radar data set which could either corroborate, or disprove what Russia has released. The fact that Washington only has this Google graphic to offer to the public indicates that what it has… may not be what it wants.

Whistleblower: A Spanish Air Traffic Controller in Kiev

All evidence pointing to a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet in the same frame as MH17, also validates the testimony of ‘Carlos’, an ATC contractor in Kiev. ETN received information from an air traffic controller (Borispol Airport) in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17:


“This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board. The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from. Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.”

‘Carlos’ was reporting from the Kiev airport in real time on Twitter, of the downing of MH17 as the tragedy was taking place — during that very time and in the very next hour – only to disappear immediately, along with his Twitter account.

Again, real mounting evidence which points to an obvious cover-up by Kiev and its NATO partners.


This is a long and in depth article. Continue here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[SilentFeathers]

Crash sites:


https://progresismohumano.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/mh17-1.jpg

http://images.teinteresa.es/mundo/Desvelan-nuevas-fotos-avion-MH-17_TINIMA20140723_0102_5.png

http://www.todayonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/photo_gallery_image_lightbox/public/photos/43_images/satellite-secondary-1-data.jpg?itok=Iq_OTfMD




The more I look at this debris feild the more it reminds me of the Pan Am 103 debris feild, makes one wonder if this MH17 was blown apart from the inside rather than taken out by a missile....????

[Cidersomerset]

Seems like the noise to signal ratio is dramatically increasing here...

Unless UFOs are involved in making human bodies to rain like fish from the sky... that's a tough one to fake!

PS: that plane really did break apart very high up in the sky!

I thought I'd leave that for you to look at Amzer , I just posted the article for discussion...LOL



I'm finding this a bit hard to believe and quite far fetched....it's rather a bit convincing but I'm not getting it. Why would they fake the 777 with another smaller jet? makes no sense.....and where did the MH17 Boeing 777 go???? Where did all the people come from that fell through peoples roofs and scattered the debris field?

I admit its possible MH17 could be now sitting in a hanger next to MH370, but I personally doubt it.

There was definitely a disaster and hundreds died, I'm willing to consider
all ideas, this was not a hoax imo but probably a false flag to get at
Putin for a number of reasons expressed in the many posts on this thread.

[KiwiElf]

It's possible it was both Cider - an external missile (which could also have been fired from another aircraft) AND an explosion from inside as well (a planted bomb, which is what VT's Gordon Duff alludes to)

[Hervé]

[...]

The more I look at this debris feild the more it reminds me of the Pan Am 103 debris feild, makes one wonder if this MH17 was blown apart from the inside rather than taken out by a missile....????

That's what it looks like to me, more and more...

The misdirections keep any debate around Buk missiles or "possibly" air-air rockets for those looking at the witnessed presence of jet fighters near MH17.

All, that leaves Shiphol airport's shady deals with all sorts of agencies with the cooperation of the Netherlands' government as "Operator" keeps repeating... oh, well...

[SilentFeathers]

Considering the liars that they are and also that they immediately determined it was a missile, it was probably an interior bomb that destroyed this craft.
The fighters tailing it were probably just a backup (plan B) to take it out if the bomb failed.....looks to me the bomb was quite successful. All the hupla about some ground to air missile taking this thing down is probably completely bull****.

Since they are so hell bent on making everyone believe it WAS a missile, I'm calling bull**** on that claim.

[Hervé]

continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[...]

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

[...]

Well, unfortunate pun but that's 1/2 a hit for the Cs (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35463.msg508567.html#msg508567) unless that colonel is also monitoring what the Cs have to say (or vice-versa):


Session 19 July 2014 (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35463.msg508567.html#msg508567) « on: July 20, 2014, 10:42:32 PM »

[...]

Q: (L) Okay. We're going to change topics here. As you know, we just had this plane fall out of the sky over the Ukraine. Immediately the US blamed Russia, and then it started blaming the Russian-aided freedom fighters in East Ukraine. Meanwhile, the Russians say it was clearly the Ukrainians in conjunction with US/NATO/UK/Whoever. So, I guess the first thing we ought to ask is: What brought the plane down?

A: [Spiraling] Bomb on the plane placed there prior to departure.

Q: (Pierre) Schiphol airport, again! The famous Underwear Bomber place! So, MOSSAD?

(L) Who was involved?

A: Note change in altitude for "signature".

Q: (Perceval) From 35 to 33...

(L) 33. Is 33 the clue?

A: Yes. Consortium. And who is at the top of this STS pyramid??

Q: (Perceval) Figures.

(L) Who is at the top of this pyramid? And who is at the top?

(Perceval) MOSSAD.

(L) MOSSAD? The Israelis?

A: Yes

Q: (Perceval) It seems the goal was to further demonize Putin and Russia. But was it also to distract from what's happening in Palestine?

A: Absolutely!

Q: (Pierre) Is it only coincidence... before MH 17, there was MH 370, this plane that disappeared from the same company. Is it just coincidence that the two incidents involve the same airline company?

A: Another "signature".

Q: (Data) Why did the plane deviate from its usual course?

A: Instructed by ATC.

Q: (Perceval) Air traffic control at Schiphol?

A: Kiev.

Q: (Perceval) So, some agent...

(L) There was some control by MOSSAD in Kiev, and that whole Nazi business going on there...

(Kniall) They've been there for DECADES!

A: Yes!

Q: (L) I think that was answering Kniall there.

(Data) Why was it necessary to change the course with a bomb on board?

(L) So it would fall where it did. They had to change the course to put it in the middle of the war zone.

(Ark) The Russians were saying that the timing was a little bit miscalculated because it was supposed to come down closer to the Russian territory so that it would be easier to blame Russia.

A: Yes.

Q: (Pierre) It exploded too early.

(L) Yeah, they're so lazy, they never get anything perfect.

(Chu) Or too impatient.

A: But most people are so gullible it doesn't matter.

[...]

[Hervé]

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370

[...]

Check this thread/post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73186-Photos-suggest-crashed-Malaysian-jet-was-MH-370&p=856848&viewfull=1#post856848

[Billy]

continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[...]

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

[...]

Well, unfortunate pun but that's 1/2 a hit for the Cs (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35463.msg508567.html#msg508567) unless that colonel is also monitoring what the Cs have to say (or vice-versa):



If this was what actually happened and one of the Ukrainian jets hit one of the engines of MH17. Then i would say Ukraine at all costs would attempt to cover this up. Maybe as far as stupidly trying to swap an engine.

Thinking out loud here.

peace

[Hervé]

Now, this is an interesting piece of evidence because it shows...


"what isn't there!"

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980w/public/2014/07/19/tpbje2014071900f_44432409.jpg?itok=Nc3m51BV


See?

What is this picture showing that isn't there?


... total absence of shrapnel impacts!


See? Unless the "alleged" Buk missile exploded right under the fuselage, the above piece of the plane's ruder is the only piece of an aircraft that would record shrapnel impacts from either side...

... and this one shows no shrapnel impacts from the left side:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pwYtwlcf-Jt-vlKB7qUYydhziC-SCTO43OL2YeC75vUp4OJ6Y0iAQye-GkuFPg2zk5WCpslhjb8vn1h6JDcMzMXOO_oml7yL3rHrtk5uKmb4/MH-17-334.jpg?psid=1



... and this one shows no -- none-- shrapnel impacts from the right side:


http://s2.djyimg.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2014/07/20/452424582-663x450.jpg



... so what's left is: from directly underneath the plane since a "directly above" is not part of the possibility a of proximity-detonation from an "alleged" surface launched missile.

To the above, add this:


[...]

Full view:


http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/362270/images/1405703234_1162038_original%281%29.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/362270/images/%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA-%D0%BC1.jpg



... which quenched my suspicion that the first picture above might not have been from the downed MH17.

However these pictures point to another question since it seems that the projectiles are the wrong way to:


... they seem to be coming from the fuselage...

... that raises the question of a bomb inside that plane...


That would make more sense than to leave it to drunken knuckleheads having a vague notion of what they are supposed to be doing and because this is a false flag event as ascertained by MSM outcries and pointing fingers before any data could be analyzed.

Any projectile-impacts expert(s) around?

[Cidersomerset]

If this was what actually happened and one of the Ukrainian jets hit one of the engines of MH17. Then i would say Ukraine at all costs would attempt to cover this up. Maybe as far as stupidly trying to swap an engine.

Thinking out loud here.

peace


That could be why they are pressing to get control of the Crash site,
even though they agreed to leave the area alone so the flight
investigators could get on with there work.

Could be coincidence but as the report says below the Ukrainian
president said they would not attack near the crash site,,,,,


Fighting near MH17 crash site hinders Dutch team visit

IZn5ts8imgI

===================================================



RAW: E. Ukraine city of Gorlovka under heavy bombardment
.

bvYGm3a3UlQ

[SilentFeathers]

That could be why they are pressing to get control of the Crash site,
even though they agreed to leave the area alone so the flight
investigators could get on with there work.

Could be coincidence but as the report says below the Ukrainian
president said they would not attack near the crash site,,,,,


What a bunch of morons, the site was basically safe enough to get investigaters in there until they started shelling the area....this is beyond idiotic......

It totally looks like they want to destroy whats left there and say, "whoops, rouge shell landed on crash site"

friggin morons, friggin guilty covering their tracks morons.....

[linksplatinum]

White House Has 24 Hours to Disprove
—

… by  Gordon Duff, Senior Editor
—

Reporting on Malaysian Airlines flight MH17  has become childish, irresponsible and many have actually decided to invent wild stories even worse than the government/AIPAC lies.

Some such stories are on Veterans Today, stories totally unresearched, stories that are groundless and based on speculation and bad brain chemistry.  Such stories push our editorial limits as they are no more than spam.

We have made note of several findings thus far.  We have noted that were a missile used, an exhaust trail would have been visible for many miles and would have been photographed.  It was not and, thus, never existed.  Locals were questioned, none saw a launch nor exhausts.

The Russians have finally allowed someone to send us their video of MH17.  Judge for yourself.  We stick to “bomb” but are taking this under advisement:

[ Note: What you will be watching below is not a black and white image but infared one. Hotter items show up as white. What looks like a launch smoke plume is not...but the infared heat signature. If  you rewatch it and freeze at the beginning you will see the white hot spot dot where the launcher was in the tree line. There is a smoke plume, very visible, loud, and more visible as it gets higher...Jim W. Dean ]

See link_ http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/27/notes-on-mh17/

[Tesseract]

The technology exists to rapidly identify the original explosive by analysis of residue on the wreckage (if there really were a bomb on board). In fact, Australia happens to be a leader in this technology. Australia has sent some police over, however I doubt that they will be open to the idea that there was a bomb on board, so it is hard to say if they will take any samples for chemical analysis.

[sigma6]

Quote from Veteran's Today article above...


The failure to recognize a pattern of activity from the repulsive new Egyptian government and their role in Gaza to the bizarre comedy act in Mosul to the Tel Aviv based oligarchs now ruling Ukraine, a failure by the press, by all the press, by governments certainly, is astounding.

- more support for Pieczenik theory... (think Murder on the Orient Express)
- "the fix is in..."

...there is nothing knew under the sun...

I wonder if Poroshenko and his Right Sector Neo Nazi's see the writing on the wall... and now Kolomoisky is on the radar... labeled as the 'Cypriot Terrorist Leader' ?
(at least he can afford some protection)

[Cidersomerset]

The violence is stepping up..........


Dozens killed in latest Kiev army shelling in E. Ukraine's Gorlovka

GBy71V-SUng

Published on 27 Jul 2014


WARNING content contains graphic images.
Kiev's army is contuining their crackdown of anti-govt forces in the East of Ukraine.
Urban areas are being caught in its deadly fire. There are reports from the city of
Gorlovka where the latest shelling has killed at least 13 civilians with some media
suggesting the death toll could be higher.

RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Ukrainian gov't should stop using Grad rockets in populated areas'

cHXLvV0VEnA

Published on 27 Jul 2014


Human Rights Watch said that the Ukrainian army may have committed a war crime
when it kill16 civilians with unguided grad missiles. The group says that the grad
systems are just too inaccurate to be used on populated areas. HRW is calling on
both sides in the conflict to stop using this kind of weapon if it wanted to avoid civilian
casualties. One of the authors of the report said the Ukrainian military should be held
accountable for the killing of civilians.

[sigma6]

All residential targets, and let me guess, according to the US backed Neo Nazis this is technically "legal"...

This is what happens when you follow the letter of the law, as opposed to the spirit of the law.
Everything is a technicality. Which is what the US/Israeli media hamburger grinder has been
cranking out since the first "insinuation" (created by a British ambassador in Australia.... get it? get it? LOL)
followed by the reification of insinuations into "plausible theories", and then the reification of "plausible theories"
into "justified interpretations" which are now being used to coerce and provide a "rationale" (which is really
a rationalization for sanctions. (And there's the money payoff)

I never thought I would see the day a US propped up government would be using guerrilla terrorist tactics
against civilians. I need to listen to the latest talking head "harf" out a technical interpretation why this
is perfectly acceptable... cause I couldn't even twist this one into a viable platitude.

I am waiting for Eastern Ukrainians to start counter attacking the West. Cause I know if I was one of them, I would sure as hell be thinking about it... Like Pieczenik said. They are trying to instill fear in you, you have to understand how to serve it back to them...

And everything being equal and everything notwithstanding,
let truth overcome evil.

[Selene]

I never thought I would see the day a US propped up government would be using guerrilla terrorist tactics
against civilians. I need to listen to the latest talking head "harf" out a technical interpretation why this
is perfectly acceptable... cause I couldn't even twist this one into a viable platitude.

Exactly. it's that bad. And that laughable.

But maybe we should just begin laughing? Either way would work, perhaps....?

What a mess. But:

We. will. prevail.

Keep onward, my friends. Keep pointing fingers at the Naked Emperor......

Cheers,

Selene

[Operator]

The technology exists to rapidly identify the original explosive by analysis of residue on the wreckage (if there really were a bomb on board). In fact, Australia happens to be a leader in this technology. Australia has sent some police over, however I doubt that they will be open to the idea that there was a bomb on board, so it is hard to say if they will take any samples for chemical analysis.

If the bomb was brought on board by the guys in suits then there will never be clues found to indicate this.
The investigation is lead by the Dutch, that's where the plane left. They could have started the investigation
there but didn't. Being shot down over a wartime area was the first intentional distraction.

When the Bijlmerramp was investigated the (inexperienced) parliamentary investigation committee was
sidetracked all the time. Covering their tracks is already taken care of. Black boxes are in the UK ...

Like 9/11 it is more important to learn and expose that the official storyline stinks and detect how they
are spinning the storyline to benefit from it. Otherwise it will end as a fight between the different
streams of truth seekers and we're all put in the conspiracy theorists corner again.

The next important indication is the question why the Kiev officials are stepping down and acts of war
are increased in the area of the crash site. :playball:

[araucaria]

continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[...]

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

[...]

Well, unfortunate pun but that's 1/2 a hit for the Cs (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35463.msg508567.html#msg508567) unless that colonel is also monitoring what the Cs have to say (or vice-versa):



If this was what actually happened and one of the Ukrainian jets hit one of the engines of MH17. Then i would say Ukraine at all costs would attempt to cover this up. Maybe as far as stupidly trying to swap an engine.

Thinking out loud here.

peace
Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: it does not gell at all well with the fine forensic work you are doing on this and other threads. You hint at various links between what the colonel is saying and the Cs are saying; one also has to consider the likelihood that material channeled with a Ouija board that can be as reliable as it likes whenever it pleases, because it is getting all the info from the horse’s mouth, but is precisely for that reason not to be trusted. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, but this is why forum policy restricts channeled info to a section expressly calling on users’ personal discretion. Even if correct, it can only undermine the interesting things you have to say on a totally different level as you sift through the wreckage.
Peace

[Observer1964]

I wonder if it is a 777 lying there...

The engine of a 777 is about 10 feet, twice the size of a man
the engine lying in the field is half of that, and the fan is totally different, not only size and shape but even direction of rotation of the blades is different.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Alleged-Crash-site-engine-debis-not-from-B-777-b.jpg (http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Alleged-Crash-site-engine-debis-not-from-B-777-b.jpg)



qopnTeQUlUM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qopnTeQUlUM

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/26/mh-17-hoax-crash-site-evidence-reveals-no-boeing-777-engine/

[Cidersomerset]

The Propaganda and Politics of MH17

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:23 By david-icke



ACTIVIST POST.....

The Propaganda and Politics of MH17

Eric Draitser
Activist Post



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash3-300x177-1.jpg


‘The downing of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 (MH17) is a tragedy that will be remembered for years
to come. However, the way in which the West has distorted the facts about what happened is no
mere accident. Rather, it is a clear attempt by Washington and its allies and proxies to capitalize
on the incident, using it as a weapon in their continued belligerent and aggressive policies toward Russia.’

Recent days have seen a deluge of propaganda from both the US government and the Western
media (especially US media) which, despite being short on facts, has attempted to place the blame
for MH17 squarely on Russia and Russian President Vladimir Putin. While this certainly is no surprise
given the public demonization campaign of Russia throughout the conflict in Ukraine, it undoubtedly
crosses the line from laughable to utterly irresponsible and dangerous. Given the already icy relations
between the two countries, it seems that Washington has as part of its strategy the inflammation of
tensions.

But why? What does the US political establishment, which includes both major parties, hope to gain
from this tragedy? Or, perhaps more specifically, how does the United States plan to capitalize on the
incident? The propaganda, spin, and outright lies from Western media cannot be understood in a vacuum.
Rather, they must be recognized as part and parcel of the larger political agenda of the West both in
Ukraine, and Eastern Europe as a whole.

Lies, Damned Lies, and Western Media

Although the investigation into the crash has only just begun, that has not stopped Washington from
attempting to shape the narrative into an indictment of Russia, accusing Moscow of being behind the
attacks. Headlines such as White House Blames Russia For MH17 Crash, Saying There’s No Believable
Alternative (Huffington Post) and Congress: MH17 Crash Is ‘Ac of Terror,’ and Putin May Be To Blame
(The Daily Beast), both of which interestingly come from “liberal” media outlets, have become routine
in recent days. The not so subtle, indeed overt, implication of such headlines is that Russia is
responsible for the downing of MH17, despite there being no evidence to that effect.





Essentially, the US political establishment, and its corporate media appendage, attempted to make a flimsy
case into a politically expedient narrative that would bolster the US-NATO agenda in Ukraine, while
simultaneously legitimizing the belligerent, anti-Russian rhetoric and policies that the White House and
Congress have been pursuing. Moreover, Washington has attempted to use the incident to deflect attention
from the brutal war crimes and other embarrassing aspects of the US-backed Kiev regime’s horrific war
against the people of eastern Ukraine.

The specific lies, omissions, and distortions propagated by Washington and its dutiful media servants must
be recalled in order to debunk them, but perhaps more importantly, to demonstrate the clear and unmistakable
way in which they have been used to cobble together a false narrative that, despite being an admitted
fabrication, will be made permanent in the minds of many Americans.

The Kiev regime has proclaimed repeatedly that Russia was behind the attack, offering “evidence” of
“Russian participation.” The first piece of “evidence” were the tape recordings that purportedly provided
proof that anti-Kiev rebels and, by implication, Russian agents working with them, had admitted to
downing MH17. However, a careful analysis by renowned digital sound analyst Nikolai Popov and his
team of experts concluded that that the recordings were not authentic, that is to say, they were cobbled
together using various recordings from before the disaster occurred. As Popov noted, “This audio recording
is not an integral file and is made up of several fragments.”

While Popov’s team’s findings should not be taken as gospel, they do call into question the authenticity of
the supposed “evidence.” In fact, it is quite likely that the recordings were constructed from actual conversations
by anti-Kiev rebels discussing the downing of a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet days before the MH17 incident.
Of course, the findings should not be seen as definitive, but as yet, they constitute the only sound analysis
done of the recordings. It seems more than convenient that neither the US nor any of its partners have carried
such an analysis, and have instead chosen to proclaim the recordings’ authenticity based purely on faith that
Kiev is telling the truth. Naturally, this is a dangerous assumption considering the established pattern of lying
by Kiev to further its war against the citizens of the East.

Indeed, the regime in Kiev has lied its way throughout the last week with almost every statement and piece
of “evidence” it has provided. Yet another example can be found in the video the government released which
purportedly showed a Russian Buk missile battery with at least one missile missing moving in the direction of
Russia from rebel-held territory. Unfortunately for Kiev, the videos have been examined by many familiar with
the region and exposed as distortions insofar as they actually show the Buk systems in Kiev-controlled territory,
not rebel areas as Poroshenko & Co. have alleged. And so, with this information, it raises the question not only
of Kiev’s lies regarding Russian involvement, but also the far more sinister likelihood that it was, in fact, Kiev’s
military forces, whether under orders or simply through irresponsibility and negligence, that actually downed MH17.

Additionally, one must examine the claims made and repeated ad nauseam by Kiev that it had no military aircraft
in the skies when MH17 was shot down. From July 17 (the day of the incident) until July 21 (the day Russia’s Ministry
of Defense presented its intelligence), the Kiev regime continually denied allegations that its military aircraft were in
the vicinity of MH17. However, once Russia’s MoD provided the international press with evidence refuting that claim
and showing that not only were Ukrainian jets in the vicinity, but they were within firing range, magically that talking
point ceased to be repeated. In other words, every aspect of the Kiev regime’s narrative has been thoroughly discredited.

And so, by July 23rd, the media headlines which had, until that point, simply been reiterating the claims made by
Kiev and using “US assessments” (whatever that’s worth), began to finally admit that there is absolutely no evidence
directly tying Russia to the incident. So, the US State Department, along with nearly all major media, were exposed
as part of a comprehensive propaganda matrix designed to further US foreign policy aims, rather than report
information accurately and objectively. More to the point, just two days earlier, the US State Department made the
claim that it had the intelligence to “prove” Russian involvement but, when pressed by Associated Press journalist Matt
Lee, refused to provide any hard evidence, be it intelligence or reconnaissance imagery, to support their claims.

So once again Secretary of State John Kerry, and the entire State Department, have been made to look foolish in
their rush to accuse Russia of wrongdoing, as was the case with the Secretary of State regurgitating the discredited
claim of anti-semitic leaflets being handed out by anti-Kiev rebel forces.

The US media, like the State Department, obviously have egg on their face, as can be demonstrated quite clearly
by the NY Post headlines of July 22nd and July 23rd. On July 22nd, the Post printed on its cover the headline
“Dear Vlad – ‘Thank you…for murdering my loved and only child’”, followed less than twenty four hours later with
the headline “US: No direct link to Russia found in MH17 attack.” This sort of shameful propaganda, designed to
inflame anti-Russian sentiments, rather than report facts, is standard fare for US media and the corporate
interests it serves.

Washington’s Political Agenda

The attempts by the US and its allies and proxies to blame Russia for the downing of MH17 expose a transparently
cynical foreign policy in Ukraine, and Eastern Europe more broadly, that seeks to dominate and intimidate Russia
politically, economically, and militarily. Naturally, this strategy is doomed to fail as the Russia of 2014 is certainly
not the Russia of 1994. The MH17 episode is a case in point, showing just how the Washington and Kiev have tried
to capitalize on every opportunity to achieve strategic goals by demonizing Russia.

A close look at some of the statements from the State Department in recent days illustrates clearly the way in which
the Obama administration tried to leverage the disaster in order to buttress the failing war against the anti-Kiev
rebels in eastern Ukraine. US State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf indicated in a briefing with reporters
that the US asked Russia to demand that the anti-Kiev rebels “leave the region” in which the crash occurred so that an
investigation could take place. In other words, Washington seeks to use the MH17 investigation as a backdoor option
for Kiev to regain territory that it has been unable to conquer militarily; an undoubtedly, and quite despicably,
cynical ploy by the US.

But of course, the US is now trying to use the fact that Russia was not involved in the attack “directly” as a way for
Washington to drive a wedge between Moscow and the anti-Kiev rebels. By stating that Russia is not “directly”
responsible, Washington is attempting to put Putin in a corner by giving him the opportunity to exonerate himself and
Russia by abandoning the anti-Kiev forces, letting them hang to save his skin. Once again, it seems that the Obama
administration is grossly underestimating Putin’s resolve on the issue of Ukraine. It is quite clear that the Kremlin is
never going to allow a hostile regime that is publicly on the record as seeking NATO participation/observer status and
is outwardly hostile to Russia and ethnic Russians to dominate the whole country and create problems in the future.

Indeed, this issue of Putin’s resolve is central to understanding why Russia has been so assertive in Ukraine since the
crisis began. As Putin explained on July 22nd:

We shall provide an adequate and well-measured response to NATO’s expansion towards Russia’s borders, and we shall
take note of [the West] setting up a global missile defense architecture and building up its arsenals of precision-guided
weapons…No matter what our Western counterparts tell us, we can see what’s going on. As it stands, NATO is blatantly
building up its forces in Eastern Europe, including the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea areas. Its operational and combat
training activities are gaining in scale…The so-called competitive struggle at the international arena will imply the use
of tools in both economic and political fields. This will include the potential of security services, modern information and
communication technologies, and connections of dependent, puppet NGOs – the so-called soft power…apparently, some
countries regard it as democracy.

Such frank tough talk from Putin is a good indication of why the US regards him and Russia as the primary obstacle to its
goal of maintaining and extending US hegemony. Despite the US missile plans for Eastern Europe, the continued imposition
of punitive sanctions on key individuals and entities in Russia, the expansion of NATO and its attempt to absorb former
Soviet republics into its sphere of influence, and a host of other issues, Russia stands firm and undeterred. Whatever one
may think about Putin and his government, it’s quite clear that they are not going to succumb to the usual arm-twisting,
threats, blackmail, subversion or destabilization that the US employs to get its way. Perhaps this, at least in part, explains
why Putin is more popular in his country than any other leader in the world.

The downing of MH17 is a shocking tragedy. The dead should be mourned alongside the innocent eastern Ukrainians who
have also paid with their lives for the regime change operation that the US sponsored in Ukraine. However, beyond the
sorrow and despair engendered by MH17, the world should focus its attention on the political maneuvers that the US has
employed to capitalize on the tragedy and, in so doing, moving forward with its agenda of destabilization and aggression
against Russia. Washington’s belligerent policy is nothing new. However, the stakes have never been higher than they are today.

Eric Draitser is an independent geopolitical analyst based in New York City, he is the founder of StopImperialism.org and
OP-ed columnist for RT, exclusively for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”, where this first appeared.



http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/the-propaganda-and-politics-of-mh17.html#!boBzv3

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

The BBC Deleted This Video as it Told the Truth About Flight MH 17

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:20 By david-icke



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-282-587x396.jpg


zUvK5m2vxro



====================================================

Ukraine pushes back and takes at least three towns in three days off the pro-Russians
as Dutch MH17 monitors say crash site now too dangerous to investigate

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:16 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1406480191158_wps_9_Mandatory_Credit_Photo_by.jpg


‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.

It marks a continuation of a days-long offensive which has led them to push back into
three towns in the rebel-held regions of Donetsk and Luhansk in the past four days,
while international investigators desperate to access to downed jet’s crash site pull
out for fear of being caught in the fighting.

On Thursday and Friday Ukrainian forces were pushing into the town of Lysychansk,
a strategic centre in Luhansk. Today there were reports that tanks rolled into
Shakhtarsk, just ten miles from the site, while Ukraine claimed to have surrounded
the rebel stronghold of Horlivka, both in Donetsk.’

Read more: Ukraine pushes back and takes at least three towns in three days off the
pro-Russians as Dutch MH17 monitors say crash site now too dangerous to investigate


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707344/Fighting-breaks-near-MH17-crash-site-EU-security-advisers-sent-help-Ukraine-bring-law-order-rebel-area-call-visit-dangerous.html

[Observer1964]

‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me at all. I even think they would like to destroy the crashsite as much as possible...

[Cidersomerset]

Quote ‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.
Somehow that doesn't surprise me at all. I even think they would like to destroy the crashsite as much as possible...

I think that is the aim they want to get control of it as soon as possible.
If not try to keep the investigators away. The initial false flag has not
worked as they wanted, although most western mainstream press are still
insinuating it was shot down by 'Russian backed Rebel fighters'..

When Russia called their bluff and are standing up to Washington/EEC
pressure. The Kiev regime are trying to cover their tracks.

[Hervé]

[...]
Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: ....

Your opinion, araucaria... I'll keep mine since it is as reliable as any RVing, whether first or second hand.

[Agape]

I've had weird dream on today , to do with Malaysia . I've never been to Malaysia in this life not even in dream .
So I suppose there's a strong spirit connection to either or both of the recent crashes .

In the dream I was on way to Australia with stop in Kuala Lumpur , we've been travelling with another friend - girl - whom I barely knew , coming from India .
The atmosphere was extremely welcoming but somewhat of 'twin peaks' , I wonder if I've actually , rather , visited one of the 'bardos' , states where you go after passing away from this realm . I suppose it may be the case .
We were waiting at around the airport ( Kuala Lumpur ) for ages , the airport was almost empty .. as if all were called off somewhere and it had plenty of facilities ,
bars , even a swimming pool.
There was a group of us who came on the same plane , a small group and we were told we can do whatever we like , or go to countryside unless it's too far because flights seemed to be halted for few days .
There was a 'rasta man' with long dreadlocks taking care of me and the other girl ,
trying to be helpful though I remember I did not feeling it's fitting me really well - felt like a tourist - I'm not that one in real life at all .

There were clear light moments like playing with wild yet tame animals on a green lawn , there was a tiger and a snake and all were friendly ..

an underground ( tube train ) with very complicated lines and totally different way of getting to know when each train comes . Maps that looked like puzzles .

Now , the strange thing to the end that actually caught my attention ...

we wanted to go to see a place at a seacoast that was about 600 miles from the city and it would take us a day to get there ..and we were told we can't , that the area is 'off limit' .
The place was extremely spectacular sight .. high reef , a mountain slopes covered by green meadows descending almost vertically to water .. yet , there lived people on those meadows , plenty of people , like a little paradise ,
all colours of people , man and women , children , all very happy .. it was impossible to get to that side of place from anywhere.
Yet , we were watching them from 'another side' . They were building an arch like a gate , above the mountains , so huge that I started to feel dizzy watching the two pillars , not complete, rising to the sky ..

I am not sure what exactly it signified . The 'arch' looked like a memorial to me of people who passed away in accidents , yet .. it was not complete ..


Sorry Malaysia :angel:

[Cidersomerset]

'US 'proof' so unprofessional - social media propaganda' - Frmr WSJ Editor

ZrMG7VYnN8I

Published on 28 Jul 2014


The US State Department has released satellite images via email
which it says act as “evidence” that Russia is firing rockets at
Ukrainian troops across the border. READ MORE http://on.rt.com/rl57kp

[Cidersomerset]

In this article they show the diagram from what the guest in the
above RT report states is clearly false information.....

They have not head lined it just 'snuck' it in at the bottom,
to add weight for a later article possibly ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png



28 July 2014 Last updated at 12:26

Downing of MH17 jet in Ukraine 'may be war crime' - UN


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76568000/jpg/_76568161_mhwreckafp26jul.jpg

Wreckage of MH17, 26 Jul 14 There are fears that some evidence at the crash
site may have been compromised as it was not protected



The downing of the Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine may constitute a
"war crime," the UN's Navi Pillay says.

Pro-Russia Ukrainian rebels and the Ukrainian authorities have accused each
other of shooting down flight MH17.

A Ukrainian official said on Monday that MH17's data recorders show it came
down due to "massive explosive decompression" caused by a rocket.

Meanwhile, heavy fighting has again prevented an international police force
from reaching the crash site.

The Ukrainian military said it was battling separatists for control of several
towns near the site in eastern Ukraine.

All 298 people on board the airliner - mostly Dutch - died on 17 July.

'War crime'

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76388000/jpg/_76388480_ukraine_malaysia_plane_624_latest_v2.jpg


International police want to help secure the huge site so that plane wreckage
and human remains can be examined by international crash experts.

Most of the bodies have been removed, many of them repatriated to the Netherlands.

"This violation of international law, given the prevailing circumstances, may
amount to a war crime," Ms Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human
Rights, said of the downing of MH17.

"Every effort will be made to ensure that anyone committing serious violations of
international law including war crimes will be brought to justice, no matter who
they are," Ms Pillay said.

Ms Pillay spoke as the latest UN report on Ukraine suggested at least 1,129 people
have been killed and 3,442 wounded in the Ukraine conflict since mid-April.




http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76572000/jpg/_76572305_023324221-1.jpg

Ukraine's army says it has advanced into the town of Shakhtarsk, near the crash site


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76256000/gif/_76256345_ukraine_rebel_control_area_.gif


The conflict has displaced more than 200,000 people, many of whom have fled
east to neighbouring Russia.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian security spokesman Andriy Lysenko told reporters on Monday
that recovered flight data showed the aircraft crashed due to a massive, explosive
loss of pressure after being punctured multiple times by shrapnel.

Flight MH17's two black boxes are currently being analysed by aviation experts in the UK.

Shelling

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he hoped monitors from the OSCE
international security body would be able to deploy on the Ukraine-Russia border
in the next few days.

In a statement on Monday, the Ukrainian military said it had "entered" the towns
of Shakhtarsk and Torez and was working to seize control of Pervomaysk and
Snizhne - all close to the crash site of MH17.

A man stands in rubble of a damaged house in Horlivka, Ukraine, on 27 July 2014.
Several civilians were killed in heavy shelling in the city of Horlivka over the weekend

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76568000/jpg/_76568899_023316985-1.jpg

A team of Australian and Dutch police and forensic experts abandoned attempts to
reach the site on Monday due to the security situation in the area. It was the second
failed attempt in as many days.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76572000/jpg/_76572304_023324199-1.jpg

Fighting prevented a convoy of international forensic experts and police from entering the crash site

The army is also trying to take control of two main roads in eastern Ukraine, which the
government in Kiev believes to be vital supply lines from Russia for rebel forces in Donetsk.

In the past 24 hours there has been heavy artillery fire at the city of Horlivka,
where several civilians were killed.

In the city of Donetsk at least three people died in shelling too, the municipal
authorities say. And there are reports of civilian casualties as a result of the
shelling of Luhansk, which is also held by the rebels.

Last week, the US-based Human Rights Watch said both sides in the conflict
were using unguided Grad rockets against civilian areas, in violation of human
rights norms, and urged them to stop doing so. It documented several attacks
in which, it said, the rockets were apparently fired by government forces.

The US has produced what it calls satellite evidence that rockets have been
fired at Ukrainian forces from Russian soil.

Russia denies that any of its forces are helping the rebels.

Images from US state department purporting to show evidence of Russian firing
across the border into Ukraine, 26 July 2014 The US state department says these
images show where multiple rocket launchers have been used to fire from
Russia into Ukraine


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76563000/jpg/_76563290_023316717-1.jpg

The US state department says these images show where multiple rocket launchers
have been used to fire from Russia into Ukraine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28520813

[Cidersomerset]

Russian foreign minister says the west are trying to isolate Russia
and provoke her into sanction retaliations. He also says the charges
of Russia sending weapons across the border is false and they are
still waiting for an answer on the invitation to send independent
monitors to the border check points.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wrap-up: Lavrov on ‘containing Russia’, Ukraine & MH17 crash

K4kKQcTc-Ew

Published on 28 Jul 2014


Russia's Foreign Minister says the groundless allegations against Moscow over
Ukraine need to stop, but insists there will be no tit-for-tat response to any
Western sanctions. With a look at what else Sergey Lavrov had to say at a
media briefing - RT’s Marina Kosareva. READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/liin8m

[Cidersomerset]

http://www.dzambas.ch/dzblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/infowars-logo.jpg



New MK Ultra research ??? Thru DARPA to better organise propaganda techniches.....



===========================================

‘Creepy & Scary’: US military harnesses social media to manipulate online behaviour


08tWHpNCUto

Published on 26 Jul 2014


Privacy watchdogs are in uproar following revelations the U.S. government may
have been behind a recent Facebook experiment. Marina Portnaya reports.

RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

[araucaria]

[...]
Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: ....

Your opinion, araucaria... I'll keep mine since it is as reliable as any RVing, whether first or second hand.
Not just an opinion, I also made a point that you are missing. I expressed the opinion to the effect that the fact that reliability can be manufactured may apply here. You are welcome to disagree, but not on the basis of reliability, which is not in dispute.

My point was that one reliable source can cancel out another. In a court of law, for a witness whose testimony coincides with all the available physical evidence, it would be advisable not to append his testimony by saying, ‘Moreover this was confirmed to me through someone’s Ouija board/RV session’. It is not an issue of reliability but of Occam’s razor. When you can make your case to the people you want to convince with elements that they can understand and accept, why bring up a technique that they are likely to consider makes you a totally unreliable witness? I am talking here about visitors to this site interested in hard evidence and turned off by all this other stuff. They are the people you need to convince.

That’s all. :focus:

[Operator]

Since there are also a few Dutch members participating in this thread and I did
not focus that very much on Dutch news I have a question to you all:

Did somebody catch the reason or an explanation why they sent Marechaussee
(= Dutch Military Police) to the crash site?

There are at least 2 other groups (civilian and military) that are perhaps better
suited for the job. I wonder if they gave an explanation ...

[jackovesk]

http://miraclesandinspiration.com/images/projectcamelot_radio-lg.gif

MH17 (7-25-14) ON WHISTLEBLOWER RADIO

MH17 interview with Mike Harris starts @ 49:00mins


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQNJdKcnGPI

PS - Can't tell you anything about this show, haven't listened to it yet..:noidea:

[Hervé]

Anyway...

I found this in a Gordon Duff article (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/27/notes-on-mh17/):


It isn’t just the blogger amateurs that make things up. We are still faced with a bomb on a plane, put there in Schip(h)ol Airport. We now have evidence of “salted” wreckage being hauled in. This is the funny part, a real ground to air missile may, at best, put about a pound, two at max, of steel balls and small parts into a plane. Here is a quote from VT editor, Colonel James Hanke, an actual expert on air defense systems:
“From the examination of ‘recently found’ pieces of wreckage, it looks like they fired an ICBM at the plane, perhaps one with a 53 Studebaker strapped to the top. Blast patterns on what appears to be ‘salted’ wreckage indicates a warhead of several thousand pounds.”

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/000_par7937405.si_-320x179.jpg (http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/000_par7937405.si_.jpg)
This is way too dense of a strike pattern for a ground to air missle[sic]

[...]I don't know who actually wrote that piece but it demonstrates that, that "expert" has the attention span of a sparrow and didn't even look at his evidence to assert: "Fake!" "Salted!"

Because, had that individual taken a close look at that piece of evidence, he would have seen this:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pac09Lhg6R_-X20yz3NpQ66NuIom9lMvuPpmONtC8vlkVfXqzel9gDldUFPPpcUstdFptnhQ8XeIjwKePezpn3e_bJragzcnNOlrtQBEtnBA/MH-17-344d.jpg?psid=1



https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pAZ0Th0AAEonM3ji5plDjx2JzgZvylsWWNMZb8rwAZqqYR1-8EFTGqevAFxvgs5V6Kr0vNhVot7YAi4w1cpI8h9l5XrUHIf-vyRqk6538HRA/MH-17-350.jpg?psid=1



https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pYqyWTM6nv_qt8Q9feW-MNIvk0e6Tccpn9VaiI8FP6ZK071RfwbvWrXXROtwqfY0qstGPituqlpzPSmXY_eP3nBC8cYdTmIAk3MXkdGuNhoE/MH-17-348.jpg?psid=1


... which show that something popped OUT of the cockpit... that would be in favor of a bomb placed inside the plane... wouldn't it?


Then, I recalled something that would be definite but couldn't get my mouse on it until now; and that's this:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pUaqxyQsiBI-Q0na34F5uVPJH5wGlFD__Xy9P7l_DQ0iC5bzTqMVDHGp2gWae0pDbEsygdl6wdAP6j-9vHoB1zgmEQLqAXwOm4yi8mOKbn9A/MH-17-266.jpg?psid=1


... which is also indicative of projectiles coming from the fuselage... but couldn't pinpoint from where... until I rediscovered this:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2p6MZqQnXMWpo1R5TRDhlN3xqCYDiMPajle16eFcX7Hp8BGVmoF6wqXbFeNdcrOrKbmlHJYj96YbaFTQUz8ZHBgXRCVHkZORFFR cLJvCwyrKg/MH-17-268a.jpg?psid=1



... which demonstrates that those shrapnel pieces came from ABOVE this piece of plane ((one wouldn't bother putting a "NO STEP" warning on the underneath side of a wing or a stabilizer... right?).

I still have to find out if the above is a piece of wing or a piece of tail... (Kiwielf?)

Then, the absence of shrapnel impacts on most other plane pieces and panels needs also to be accounted for...

So, AFAIC, a proximity-exploded Buk missile is ruled out!

[KiwiElf]

Hi Amzer Zo - like the engines question, I needed another reference by stepping back to get a bigger picture and you provided it ta! And for others who asked similar questions: All the photos I'd seen at that stage showed the internal impellor blades of the main engine core - which at first observation, were obviously too small to be the whole engine. The larger inlet turbine fan - the front of the engine (the 10.5 ft diameter blades) is mounted onto and in front of this "core". This appears to have been separated on the ground.

Now, your pictures above: The lower picture appears to be part of the wing (hence the NO STEP warning - and your observation is bang on - something scored the upper surface.

Oddly enough, your first three upper photos (can't tell what part of the plane this is - it appears to be the left side of the cockpit, hence the larger, squarer window framings - in which case, the pilot probably died instantly) - if we look closely, some of the larger holes are blown OUTward). These panels suggest the affect of at least two different types of weapon or explosion OR could be exit holes that have blown right through the fuselage and out the other side. The smaller peppering has come from an external direction inward against the panels. The damage appears to have come from multiple directions.

Your 4th photo - not sure - could be the very outer part of the wing, and from the red connection marking, if it's the wing, would likely be an under surface. (Sorry - I really need to see the whole thing zoomed out to be sure (or get myself up close to a 777 to identify these pieces).

So far, - until we know some more - I'm sticking to my belief that there was both an external missile (and if a fighter plane was involved, some possible strafing as well) and a bomb inside the aircraft. It almost appears that the attackers needed to bring it down in that area. The first attempt (missile and/or strafing) didn't achieve that.

[jackovesk]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...:noidea:


BBC Russia accidentally aired a truthful report about the HM17 crash, they have since deleted it. The problem with the report was that local people told they they had seen two fighter jets with the Malaysian Airline Boeing 777 MH17 and that it was one of these fighter jets that shot the HM17 down. Before they deleted it it was saved by watchful internet users and have now been uploaded many times to internet. Just like they did with the video were they claimed that the Salomon building (WTC7) had collapsed 20 minutes before it actually happened (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s). That video have also been deleted from BBC's archives.

BBC Russia accidentally aired a truthful report about MH17 - The Video Report Deleted by the BBC - ENG SUBS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro

[KiwiElf]

Hmmm just like 9/11 Jack, the News Media are so clever at reporting events before they happen ;) (deliberate sarcasm :))

[Hervé]

[...]

Your 4th photo - not sure - could be the very outer part of the wing, and from the red connection marking, if it's the wing, would likely be an under surface. (Sorry - I really need to see the whole thing zoomed out to be sure (or get myself up close to a 777 to identify these pieces).

So far, - until we know some more - I'm sticking to my belief that there was both an external missile (and if a fighter plane was involved, some possible strafing as well) and a bomb inside the aircraft. It almost appears that the attackers needed to bring it down in that area. The first attempt (missile and/or strafing) didn't achieve that.

Hi KiwiELF,

Thanks for the contribution!

The last picture of my post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858616&viewfull=1#post858616) is a close-up of the second last picture (4th picture) with the "NO STEP" sign being along the edge of the grayer area. The red sign reads "SAFETY LINE _ ATTACH POINT" and both are on the same side/ surface of the wing/stabilizer. However, if I look at the tail sections of the plane, there are no evidence of shrapnel impacts anywhere:


http://static.rappler.com/images/mh17-debris-20140818-1.jpg

http://mvasin.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2-MH17-Ukraine-Plane-Crash-russian-terrorism.jpg

http://upload.xh08.cn/2014/0718/1405642614416.jpg

https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/a044bd7c2046e4e20cdfffdfd89b51ad76a18db417da48d410b622d83c899ed2_facebook
Same piece as above but now turned on its side from its previous upside-down position.

http://www.crashonline.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/boeing111.jpg
Rudder-fin/vertical stabilizer piece.


... which would tend to rule out that piece being part of a horizontal stabilizer and indicate it to be a piece of wing (but I could be wrong).




I attributed the peppered pieces (first 3 pictures) to the left side of the cockpit but it seems that both the right and left sides are symmetrical with respect to the painted lines... in any case it's one or the other.

The trouble I have with the "inbound impacts" is that they could also be due to to the ground explosion and/or to impact with ground obstacles... rocks, etc... which makes it difficult to distinguish from true missile shrapnel-impacts.

Considering the Russian published evidence of a surface-air missile having been launched at that time, it would make sense that all eventualities to shoot down that plane were considered and applied and I would agree that both missiles and bomb(s) were used:


iPNfpWScXGM

[KiwiElf]

Ahah... looking at the shape & thickness of those cross sections, then upper surface of wing I would say it is - an "earthing" connection point, usually done when refueling. It's possible the cockpit was severely damaged in the first part of the attack, plane skews off course but still "flying", subsequent attack(s) exploded it and it effectively "fell" out of the sky.

Is it plausible for ground-to-air AND air-to-air PLUS internal bomb? (In which case, it was no "accidental" shooting down)

[bogeyman]

b67OGUsQC44

[KiwiElf]

As a side note, I can't help but feel this is a diversionary event; blaming Russia, blaming Ukraine, diverting attention from Israel/Gaza is a given. What if it's "something else"?. "Something" in the Ukraine that the Cabal desperately want to get their hands on? I'll leave you with that thought... it's zzzzz time here and I really need to get some sleep! ;)

[Leon]

As you said learn from History, in this case Putin is being set up as they did with Adolf before WW2, Germany had no intention of war till later... as with all wars...

[Operator]

Ahah... looking at the shape & thickness of those cross sections, then upper surface of wing I would say it is - an "earthing" connection point, usually done when refueling. It's possible the cockpit was severely damaged in the first part of the attack, plane skews off course but still "flying", subsequent attack(s) exploded it and it effectively "fell" out of the sky.

Is it plausible for ground-to-air AND air-to-air PLUS internal bomb? (In which case, it was no "accidental" shooting down)

Well I think it is very well likely that there is a multi faceted scenario at play here.
To begin with, you need a patsy when performing a false flag op. It crossed my
mind that the Su-25 jets may have been scrambled to investigate that plane under
false pretenses. This way they are suspect even without firing a missile.
Anyway, you'll get the gist from this example ...


As a side note, I can't help but feel this is a diversionary event; blaming Russia, blaming Ukraine, diverting attention from Israel/Gaza is a given. What if it's "something else"?. "Something" in the Ukraine that the Cabal desperately want to get their hands on? I'll leave you with that thought... it's zzzzz time here and I really need to get some sleep! ;)

Yeah, seems like it ... I already referred to the results of the parliamentary investigation of the 1992
Bijlmerramp where they concluded that El Al (= ties to Mossad etc.) had more or less a small 'Kingdom'
on Schiphol. What if (likely) that situation didn't change at all despite the findings?

[ExomatrixTV]

~HELP THIS VIDEO TO GO VIRAL FAST!

s9Z50GU3dj0

(thanks!)

[Zampano]

Maybe the same old plot...Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria...ressource based war.

Maybe the ressources from the Arctic which holds about 15 % of the worlds undiscovered oil and arround 30 % gas.
And Russia owns the majority of it...nearly 22%
Also, at then end of last year Russia started to build up some military force in the Arctic region.

Start a smear campaign against the country, telling lies, paying so called rebels and mercenaries, a little false flag incident and watch the plan unfolding.
Just an idea and maybe the bigger picture.

[Hervé]

Pretty good summary of the situation's history and current state:

Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told (http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told)

27.Jul.2014 | http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/user_thumb_submitted/pictures/picture-1.pngSCG (http://scgnews.com/who-is-scg) Follow @SCGupdates (https://twitter.com/SCGupdates) Tweet to SCGupdates (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?screen_name=SCGupdates&text=Regarding%20your%20article...%20http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told)


Who was REALLY responsible for the downing of flight MH-17? Let's take a look at the facts.


b67OGUsQC44

NOTE: There is one error in this video which has been mentioned in the video annotations and at the bottom of the page.

[transcript of video below]


On July 17th, 2014 two major events took place: Malaysian flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine, presumably by a missile, and Israel began a ground invasion of Gaza. Israel's invasion was granted an almost complete media blackout. The MH17 tragedy, however, got full coverage, and was immediately propagandized. (This in spite of the fact that far more civilians have been killed by Israel's bombardment of Gaza over the past few weeks (http://scgnews.com/the-gaza-bombardment-what-youre-not-being-told).)

The U.S. government and the western media pinned the responsibility for the MH17 tragedy on Russia within minutes, long before investigators had time to even arrive at the scene, much less provide any actual conclusions. Then came an all out information war, with lies, omissions and disinformation coming from all sides.

The geopolitical implications of this event should not be underestimated. If this was ever in doubt, the fact that Obama just sent military advisers to Ukraine to help Kiev in its assault against the east (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-team-dispatched-to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/?page=all#pagebreak) should make it very clear. Depending on how much mileage Washington can get out of it, the downing of flight MH17 could end up being extremely pivotal.

Anyone who knows their history, knows that media coverage of events like these often lay the psychological groundwork for war. Consider the sinking of the Lusitania for example on 5/7/1915 (or the murder archduke Ferdinand in 1914). These combined with the Zimmermann Telegram (which was dispatched on 1/16/1917) pushed US public opinion over the tipping point, and on 4/6/1917 the United States declared war on Germany.

It is worth noting that though the U.S. denied it at the time, later diving expeditions revealed that the Lusitania was indeed smuggling war munitions at the time that was sunk (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/01/lusitania-salvage-warning-munitions-1982) (as Germany had asserted from the beginning). Of course, by the time the truth was known it was far too late for the 116,000 Americans who were killed in that conflict.

So who was REALLY responsible for the downing of flight MH17?
First let's start by asking some obvious questions.

Why was flight MH17 routed over directly over a war zone? This was not a normal flight path. In fact it was 300 miles off course. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html) Normally planes this flight path keep significantly farther south, and the decision to allow MH17 to fly over Donetsk was ultimately the decision of the the authorities in Kiev.

Now, Kiev initially claimed that they were acting under the assumption that this route was safe as long as the flight stayed above 32,000 feet, which is out of range for man-pad surface to air missiles. But that statement was later contradicted by Ukraine officials who said (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508) they knew three days before the downing of MH17 that that the separatists had the Buk missile system, which is capable of hitting aircraft at much higher altitudes. So either the Ukrainian government is lying about the separatists having the missiles, or they routed flight MH17 300 miles off course, KNOWING that it could be easily shot down.

Now to fully understand the implications of this decision, we have to look at what's really been going on in Ukraine lately. The mainstream media hasn't been talking about this very much, but for the past month and a half the Ukrainian military has been using heavy artillery and airstrikes against entire towns in east Ukraine. This shelling has been indiscriminate with many of the munitions striking in residential areas. The civilian death toll for this bombardment was estimated at over 257 people one month ago, and the attacks intensified shortly after. Even Human Rights Watch has finally come out to condemn the Ukrainian military's bombardment of civilians. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/25/human-rights-watch-ukrainian-forces-are-rocketing-civilians/)
For a glimpse of what this assault looked like on the ground watch the video below (Warning: extremely brutal footage):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1lVavDFnn-o#t=0

Washington was silent. European officials were silent. And the U.N. was also silent.
The separatists in turn retreated from Slavyansk, regrouped and over the past few weeks they have shot down several Ukrainian military aircraft, (http://scgnews.com/five-reasons-the-situation-in-eastern-ukraine-is-about-to-become-much-more-dangerous) effectively stalling the the advance towards Donetsk. But the shelling hasn't stopped.

In that context, Kiev's decision to route a civilian airliner 300 miles north of its normal flight path, putting it directly over an active war zone, a war zone where they themselves were the primary aggressor, wasn't just stupid, it was criminal.

And let's remember how east Ukraine became a war zone in the first place. Did east Ukrainians invade west Ukraine or bomb them? No, the east Ukrainians held referendum to declare their dependence, (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/11/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA400LI20140511) they had a massive voter turn out (much higher in fact than the official elections that Washington endorsed) and the self appointed government in Kiev responded by attempting to bomb them into submission. And again, the so called "international community" just stood by and watched.

And this wasn't the first time.

Remember we had the Odessa massacre where Ukrainian police stood by and did nothing as Neo-Nazis burned over 40 anti-Kiev protesters alive. Among those killed was a pregnant woman who appeared to be strangled or beaten to death. The Ukrainian government totally covered up these crimes and blamed the tragedy on the anti-Kiev protesters. Apparently these people burned themselves alive. Watch "The Odessa Massacre What You're Not Being Told" for more details on this (below).


H4dJRnI-X8Q

But let's not stop there, let's take this all the way back to the beginning. We have the evidence that it wasn't Yanukovich that used snipers on the protesters in February, the real killers came from within the Maidan coalition.

The short version of the leaked phone call between EU foreign policy chief Cathy Ashton and Estonia's foreign minister Urmas Paet:

https://soundcloud.com/scg-media/estonian-foreign-minister-1

Urmas Paet: "All the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among police men and people in the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides."

Cathy Ashton: "Well that's, yeah..."

Urmas Paet: "And she also showed me some photos and she said that has medical doctor, she can say that it is the same handwriting..."

Cathy Ashton: "Yeah..."

Urmas Paet: "Same type of bullets... and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition."

(Note: Urmas Paet is not a native English speaker, so his wording is a bit odd at points. This transcript doesn't correct his errors. )

The long version: https://soundcloud.com/scg-media/estonian-foreign-minister

There actually was an investigation, but the mainstream media was very quiet about the results. Why? Because the Ukrainian M.P. that led the investigation, Grennady Moskal, a man with a long history of criticizing the Berkut police, (http://kiev1.org/en/gennadij-moskal-berkut.html) announced that he found no evidence that the Berkut police were responsible. (http://scgnews.com/ukrainian-mp-investigation-shows-no-evidence-snipers-in-kiev-were-police) The investigation also found that the bullets used in the killings did not fit the weapons (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/731428) used by the Berkut police.

For the full evidence of U.S. involvement in the toppling of the Ukrainian government watch "The Ukraine Crisis - What You're Not Being Told" (below).


fWkfpGCAAuw

Why is this background information important? Because it demonstrates just how far Washington's puppets in Kiev are willing to go for the sake of power, and that allows to start asking some harder questions.

Questions such as: was this just a case of gross incompetence on Kiev's part, or was it something else?

It's pretty obvious who benefits from this tragedy (it's certainly clear who is attempting to make use of it (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ukrainian-president-world-should-react-to-mh17-as-it-did-to-911/)), and we know Kiev has a history of killing civilians and blaming it on others, but would they really take it this far?

For a lot of people these kinds of questions are simply off limits. They just aren't prepared to let their mind go down that path, especially considering the fact that the U.S. government is in bed with these guys.

So let's tread carefully and just ask a few more questions that these so called journalists in the mainstream media are neglecting to ask. For example: Why hasn't the U.S. government released its satellite pictures of the area right after the event?
Right after Russia challenged the U.S. government to produce the satellite imagery (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW3LH20140721) to back up their accusations, this is what Washington released to CNN:


http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full_page_image/inline_image_uploads/20140722_MH17_0.jpg

This isn't a recent map at all, in fact the map itself has a date written right on it: 2010. This is just an outdated screen shot from google maps with an amateurish drawing layered on top.


Why don't they want to show us the real images?

Russia, on the other hand, has released satellite images. These first two images (see below) are dated July 14, and according to Russia they show Buk missile launch systems located about 8 kilometers northwest of the city of Lugansk (an area under the control of the Ukrainian military).


http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full_page_image/inline_image_uploads/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.11.30.png


http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full_page_image/inline_image_uploads/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.11.52.png




The next two images were taken on July 17th. The first one shows that the Ukrainian military's Buk systems are no longer in their previous position, and the last image shows them in a new position 5 kilometers north of Donetsk.


http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full_page_image/inline_image_uploads/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.12.16.png


http://d56amtpp2y9sx.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full_page_image/inline_image_uploads/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.47.57.png


Washington has not responded to this information, and interestingly has lowered it's tone since.

On July 21 Russia also released a radar image showing what they claimed to be an SU-27 fighter jet in close proximity to flight MH17. Ukraine had previously denied that there were any military aircraft near MH17, but they then reversed their story and said that the SU-27 was "escorting" the flight. (http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su-27s-escorted-mh17/)

UPDATE: The following video (which was later taken down by the BBC) shows that eye witnesses on the scene saw military aircraft approaching flight MH17 right before the crash (make sure you turn on the English subtitles):


zUvK5m2vxro


Eastern Ukraine has been watched like a hawk for months now. We've seen the U.S. government hyping their satellite images every time there is a change of Russian troop concentrations anywhere near the border. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/13/ukraine-crisis-photographs-idUSL6N0NZ67D20140513) You're telling me that now, when it really counts, the worlds most sophisticated spy machine can't provide us with satellite pictures of a massive missile battery as it was positioned right after the downing of an aircraft? You're telling me they can't provide snapshots of the area following the missile battery as it was moved to its current location? You're telling me that they don't know where this missile battery is right now? Or that they actually do have these images, but they're just refraining from spreading this juicy tidbit all over the mainstream media like they usually do as soon as they have something that helps their case?

That stretches credulity.

Interestingly, investigative journalist Robert Parry, who is best known for his work exposing the Iran Contra scandal in the 1980s, for NewsWeek and the Associated Press, has published an article (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/) stating that one of his trusted sources has informed him that "U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms."

Does this mean that we should just take Robert Parry and his source at their word? No, of course not. But by the same token, why is the western media taking the U.S. government's word at face value without demanding evidence? Washington is a den of pathological liars. Their word is less than worthless, and it certainly doesn't count as proof. Robert Parry's account on the other hand is validated by the satellite images released by Russia, and like it or not, this is the strongest evidence that has been released so far.

If Washington actually had evidence to support their case, don't you think they would have released it by now?

IMPORTANT UPDATE: On July 27th, the U.S. government played a very sneaky move, but this move actually damages their case even more. They released grainy satellite images (http://time.com/3042640/satellite-russian-ukraine-shelling/) of what they claim is proof of Russia using ARTILLERY against Ukraine. Why do I say that this is sneaky? Because the way it is timed many people will not read carefully and will instantly think that this is imagery of the missiles that they claim shot down flight MH17, and that's simply not the case. Artillery can't hit an airplane. It can't even come close. Now how does this damage their case? Well, it shows that they are specifically avoiding pulling the images related to the missile launchers.

No one is even talking about artillery attacks. This isn't the scandal of the decade like the MH17 debacle may end up being if it turns out Washington's puppets in Kiev brought down a civilian airliner on purpose. So this release is clearly a smoke screen.
But what about the audio evidence that the Ukrainian government uploaded in the form of a youtube video which supposedly proves that the rebels admitted to shooting down the plane in a phone conversation?

Is that recording genuine? Or did someone just splice it together? Who is this Oleksiy character anyway? Can anyone actually this voice to a real person? So far no one has (and this is kind of important given the circumstances).

Oh right, we know it's real because the Ukrainian government told us it was real.
Let's put this into context. Remember this is the same Ukrainian government that arrested two Russian journalists in May (http://scgnews.com/human-rights-watch-condemns-the-detention-of-journalists-by-ukrainian-provisional-government-saveour) after those journalist released footage of U.N. helicopters being used by the Ukrainian military in the assault against the east.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DOmLlvRxWM0#t=0

The Ukrainian government claimed that the journalists were transporting rocket launchers, and even video taped the men bound and gagged next to a set of rocket launchers (see video below). The U.S. government went along with the story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PA34D9AVN30#t=0

But then after there was a major uproar, and Human Rights Watch came out to condemn their arrest, the journalists were suddenly released without any comment or explanation. (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_25/LifeNews-journalists-released-and-delivered-to-Grozny-by-plane-7344/)

Why is the relevant? Because the current government in Kiev has a history of fabricating and manipulating evidence when it's politically expedient. The veracity of the audio should be determined by an independent investigation, by multiple audio experts, in multiple countries.

Now if the implications of what I'm presenting here sound crazy to you, then you might want to look up Operation Northwoods. Operation Northwoods was a series of proposals written by Department of Defense back in the 60s, which directly advocated committing acts of terrorism within the United States, and even proposed shooting down a civilian airliner in order to blame it on Cuba, and this would be used to justify a war. These documents were declassified in 1997, and there are thousands of copies available for download on the internet (for example this one from George Washington University (http://www2.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf)). Don't take my word for it, go read it.

You might be thinking, if any of this is true, why on earth would the U.S. government go out of their way to target Russia like this? This is really extreme. Might it have something to do with the fact that just this month the Brics nations met and put together an international development bank specifically designed to rival the World Bank and the IMF (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-brics-bank-20140716-story.html)? Could it be because Russia is now openly pushing for the de-dollarization of international trade (http://www.ibtimes.com/china-russia-currency-agreement-further-threatens-us-dollar-248338)? Russia poses a threat to the dollar. That's all the motive the U.S. government has ever needed.

But what if we are given incontrovertible proof that the rebels mistook flight MH17 for a military aircraft and shot it down? What should happen then?

Well ask yourself this: what would be done if this mistake had been made by the U.S. military and the airliner had been Iranian? Oh wait, that actually happened. On July 3, 1988 the U.S.S. Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

And then there was the TWA flight 800 tragedy which occurred exactly 18 years before the MH17 tragedy, on the very same day. On July 17, 1996 TWA flight 800 was downed over Long Island. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2014/07/17/malaysia-flight-17-twa-flight-800-annivesary/12784535/) The U.S. government claimed that the explosion was the result of an internal malfunction, but numerous eye witnesses reported that they saw a missile being fired from the ground, and even the New York Times referred to the evidence of a coverup as "formidable". (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/arts/television/twa-flight-800-examines-a-1996-tragedy.html?_r=0&) The U.S. government never admitted that they were responsible.

But that's really a bad example isn't it?

Here's a better example: what if Ukraine had shot down a Russian airliner. Oh wait that actually did happen... in October of 2001. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html) The Ukrainian government initially lied about it, but they finally came clean (which is more than we can say for the U.S. government).

We'll conclude here with what may seem to be a non-sequitur: a speech given by IMF chief Christine Lagarde on January 15, 2014 1:00 PM (http://press.org/events/christine-lagarde-managing-director-international-monetary-fund) This was one month before the U.S. government helped topple the Ukrainian government, leading to the crisis which then resulted in Russia's expulsion from the g8. The IMF then swooped in and saddled Ukraine with a set of their signature predatory loans. (http://scgnews.com/subjugation-by-debt-the-imf-vultures-dig-their-claws-into-ukraine-in-spite-of-violence)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x228jhv_christine-lagarde-imf-chief-weird-speech-2014_news&start=12

P.S. You're going to have to review this information several times to fully understand it. Also note that we did not include some of the more bizarre evidence (conspiracy fodder) in this case. We plan to address those issues in a later article.


CORRECTION: The audio in the video states that the TWA Flight 800 was Iranian. This is incorrect. I was mixing this up with the U.S.S. Vincennes incident which I also intended to mention. The written transcript shows the correct text. Both incidents should actually be listed here as they both illustrate the same principle. The dates, likelihood that TWA 800 was shot down, and the evidence of a coverup stands.

We're leaving the video up with an annotation on the error because this detail had no real importance for the MH17 case.

[Gardener]

bump

If Washington actually had evidence to support their case, don't you think they would have released it by now?

Occam's Razor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[sheme]

Ukraine today your street or mine next -very disturbing.

[Snoweagle]

This is the link to the FULL transcript:
http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told

Here's another in the same vain:
http://nodisinfo.com/strewn-fake-wreckage-proven-mh17-crash-hoax/

As from today You Tube and associates have prevented me from viewing any videos which refer to Zionist activities in Ukraine or Gaza. Will now have to depend on transcripts for releases and word of mouth. Just like the old days.

[Hervé]

Circus barkers on full time employment... who's the circus owner?

Kiev says rocket blast downed MH17, Dutch probe says info ‘premature’ (http://rt.com/news/176136-mh17-crash-rocket-ukraine/)

Published time: July 28, 2014 12:42
Edited time: July 28, 2014 19:13
Get short URL (http://rt.com/news/176136-mh17-crash-rocket-ukraine/)


http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2b/00/80/00/mh17-plane-blackbox-ukraine.si.jpg
Flight recorders of B-777 airliner that has crashed in Ukraine being transferred to Malaysian experts (RIA Novosti / Mikhail Voskresenskiy)



Ukraine says analysis of the black box flight recorders from the downed Malaysia Airlines plane shows it was destroyed by shrapnel from a rocket blast. Dutch investigators, however, say they have not shared data with Kiev, calling the claim “premature.”

The Ukrainian Security Council on Monday said that passenger flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine due to “massive explosive decompression.”

The spokesman for the Council, Andrey Lysenko, told a news conference in Kiev the information came from experts analyzing the recorders from the plane that came down in territory held by anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 passengers on board.

However, the Dutch Safety Board (DSB), which is heading the investigation into the crash, was puzzled by statements coming from Kiev. According to DSB spokeswoman Sara Vernooij, the “premature” release of details of MH17 black boxes is “not in the best interest of the investigation.”

Speaking to The Independent, Vernooij refused to confirm the claims or comment on the nature of the source used by Lysenko, saying that the board was not going to release anything until the crashed plane’s black boxes are analyzed in full.

“We want to analyze [and] combine information of several sources before we bring out anything, so we can give a coherent view on the whole investigation. Bringing out fragmented pieces of information is not on behalf of the investigation,” Vernooij was quoted as saying.

The DSB is expected to release its initial findings on the MH17 crash on August 1.

Heavy fighting in E. Ukraine prevents experts from visiting MH17 crash site (http://rt.com/news/175976-ukraine-mh17-malaysia-fighting/)

Britain was earlier tasked with downloading the data from two black boxes recovered from the crash site and handing that information over to international investigators for analysis.

The Ukrainian Security Service’s statement on the data retrieved from the black boxes of the downed Malaysia Airlines plane is “unacceptable,” as it contradicts the rules of the International Civil Aviation Association (ICAO), Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviatsiya) said.

According to Rosaviatsiya’s deputy head, Oleg Storchevoy, “the Ukrainian side has violated the underlying principles of cooperation in investigating air accidents.”

Such comments are unacceptable, as they “discourage a calm, unbiased and professional investigation into the causes of the accident,” Storchevoy added.


http://rt.com/files/news/2b/00/80/00/000_par7937408.si.jpg
A photo taken on July 23, 2014 shows the crash site of the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, in a field near the village of Grabove, in the Donetsk region. (AFP Photo / Bulent Kilic)


Meanwhile, international monitors have failed to reach the crash site of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 for the second day in a row, due to clashes in the vicinity, Reuters reports citing militia leader Vladimir Antyufeyev.

The OSCE tweeted that its experts traveling with Australian and Dutch ones were forced to return to the provincial capital of Donetsk for "security reasons."
Due to security reasons SMM was unable to reach #MH17 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MH17?src=hash) crash site today along w/Australian and Dutch experts. Convoy has returned to Donetsk
— СММ ОБСЄ в Україні (@OSCE_SMM) July 28, 2014 (https://twitter.com/OSCE_SMM/statuses/493706630903889920)
The group of police officers and international aviation experts went to the suburbs of the town of Torez on Monday to work on trying to find out what caused the Boeing 777 to crash, according to a member of the OSCE, RIA Novosti reports. There were a number of Australian and Dutch experts within the group, as well as Dutch police. The convoy had to alter their route as fighting was continuing in the town of Shakhtersk. The delegation was unable to reach the crash site on Sunday, for the exact same reason.

The mandate of the police team is to secure the area, currently controlled by anti-government forces, so that comprehensive investigations can begin and any remaining bodies can be recovered.

Kiev and anti-government forces are blaming each other for hampering the investigation.

Ukraine has accused the local militia of tampering with evidence and trying to cover up their alleged role in bringing MH17 down with an anti-aircraft missile.

Meanwhile, militia forces claim that Kiev is not interested in a fair and unbiased investigation into the downing of the Malaysian plane over Ukraine, so it is sabotaging the work of international experts.

Kiev sabotaging probe into downed Malaysian plane – self-defense leader (http://rt.com/news/175136-kiev-sabotaging-investigation-plane/)

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said in a report out Monday that at least 1,129 people have been killed from mid-April, when fighting began, and July 26. The report said at least 3,442 people had been wounded and more than 100,000 had left their homes. A UN report from mid-June put the death toll at 356.


http://rt.com/files/news/2b/00/80/00/mh17_plane_crash_in_ukraine.si.jpg
A Malaysian air crash investigator inspects the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region July 22, 2014. (Reuters/Maxim Zmeyev)


Ukraine civil war death toll 1,100, over 3,500 wounded - UN (http://rt.com/news/176056-ukraine-military-operation-un/)

Anti-government forces accuse Kiev of deploying artillery against residential areas. Authorities deny that charge, saying the militia forces are firing at residential areas themselves “to recruit more fighters to their cause, and to discredit the Ukrainian government.”

Dozens, including 2 children, die as Kiev troops shell Gorlovka in E.Ukraine (VIDEO) (http://rt.com/news/175956-gorlovka-donetsk-grad-civilians/)

The UN said heavy damage to electrical, water and sewage plants and estimated the costs of rebuilding at $750 million — money the government would have to find by cutting social programs.

***************************************************************



Anti-government forces accuse Kiev of deploying artillery against residential areas. Authorities deny that charge, saying the militia forces are firing at residential areas themselves “to recruit more fighters to their cause, and to discredit the Ukrainian government.” Waow... takes one to accuse others of same (see Odessa massacre (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H4dJRnI-X8Q#t=0)).

[Cidersomerset]

This with the Middle East and disputes in Asia could start a major conflict if
we are not careful if the 'Hawks on all sides' get there way. We should
note President Putin and other leaders around the world are aware of
this and it looks like the old game of brinkmanship is being played out
again......


I was curious why the EEC and US were so involved and there are a few
genuine reasons which give them a legitimate excuse to interfere.....

It goes back to the various political disagreements and the fact the
west of the Ukraine is pro EEC/NATO and the East is pro Russian. Highlighted
in recent Agent provocateurs events in Amzers post above.....


It would also give Kiev a very big incentive to frame pro Russian rebels.

As these crisis grow with changing circumstances, throw in President Putins
BRICS agreement, that will compete with the wests dollar economy, and
the massive gas deal with china and accords with Iran and Syria.The
strategic picture is not so good,


DOLLAR COLLAPSE: Russia and China to Kill the Dollar with Landmark Energy Deal

F5Anr6fIgqI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chinese leader calls for new Asia security structure with Iran, Russia

sUO6D63uhoM

Published on 21 May 2014


The Chinese leader has called for the creation of a new Asian security structure with the
participation of Iran and Russia.

President Shi Jinping, who was speaking at an Asian regional security forum in Shanghai,
said the regional countries need to innovate their security cooperation and establish a new
security cooperation architecture there. He added that the Conference on Interaction and
Confidence-building measures in Asia should also create a security response center to deal
with emergencies. The Chinese president also issued a veiled warning to the U-S against
building up a military alliance in Asia. He said that beefing up an entrenched or military
alliance aimed at a third party does not help common security. His comments come amid
China's tensions with the US over Beijing's territorial disputes with Japan, the Philippines
and Vietnam.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also.....


The forgotten treaty which could drag the US and UK into WAR with Russia if Putin's..

rvOYbFEQdms

Published on 28 Feb 2014


The forgotten treaty which could drag the US and UK into WAR with Russia if Putin's troops
intervene in Ukraine

A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect
Ukraine if President Putin's troops cross into the country.
Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma -- the then-rulers of the USA, UK,
Russia and Ukraine - agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization
of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and
Britain to avoid going to war.
The revelation comes as reports suggest the Kremlin was moving up to 2,000 troops across the
Black Sea from Novorossiysk to their fleet base at Sevastopol.
At least 20 men wearing the uniform of the Russian fleet and carrying automatic rifles surrounded
a Ukrainian border guard post in a standoff near the port yesterday.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revealed: The forgotten treaty which could drag the US and UK into WAR with Russia if Putin's
troops intervene in Ukraine

The agreement sees signatories promise to protect Ukraine's borders

It was signed by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma in 1994
Ukrainian parliament has now reached out directly to all the countries who signed the treaty


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html#ixzz38npJqhq3
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



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Ukraine–European Union relations

Relations between Ukraine and the European Union (EU) are currently shaped through the European
Neighbourhood Policy (ENP), a foreign policy instrument of the EU designed for the countries it borders.
The EU is seeking an increasingly close relationship with Ukraine, going beyond co-operation, to gradual
economic integration and deepening of political co-operation.[1] Ukraine is said to be a priority partner
within the ENP.[1]

In 2012, the EU initialled deals on free trade and political association with Ukraine; however, EU leaders
stated that these agreements would not be ratified unless Ukraine addresses concerns over a "stark
deterioration of democracy and the rule of law", including the imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko and
Yuriy Lutsenko in 2011 and 2012.[2][3][4][nb 1] Deadlines where set for Ukraine to carry out the
required changes to its justice and electoral systems in order to enable the formal signing of their
agreements with the EU in Vilnius on 29 November 2013.[8] But although the then Ukrainian President
Viktor Yanukovych had urged the Ukrainian parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine could meet the
EU's criteria,[9][10][nb 2] the Ukrainian government suspended preparations for signing the association
agreement on 21 November 2013.[6][12] Yanukovych still attended the aforementioned EU summit in
Vilnius on 28–29 November 2013 where the association agreement was originally planned to be signed
but it was not.[9][13] The decision to put off signing the association agreement led to large, widespread
protests in Ukraine.[14] These led to the removal of Yanukovych and his government by parliament after
the 2014 Ukrainian revolution in February 2014.[6][15] Since then Ukraine is in turmoil because of the
2014 Crimean crisis and the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine.[1][6]

The political part of the Association Agreement was signed on 21 March 2014 by the new Prime Minister,
Arseniy Yatsenyuk.[1] Meanwhile the EU has attempted to stabilise Ukraine by freezing assets of Russians
and Ukrainians and by granting financial help to Ukraine.[1][6][16] The economic part of the
Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014 by the new President, Petro Poroshenko.[17]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations



===============================================================

Back in 2008 the Ukraine applied to join NATO , then in 2010 as the political
situation changed , it was put on hold.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/510px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png



Ukraine[edit]

Main article: Ukraine–NATO relations

Ukraine's present and future relationship with NATO has been politically divisive, and is part of a larger
debate between Ukraine's political and cultural ties to both Europe and Russia. It established ties to the
alliance with a NATO-Ukraine Action Plan on 22 November 2002,[28][26] and became the first CIS
country to join NATO's Partnership for Peace initiative in February 2005.[131] Then in April 2005, Ukraine
entered into the Intensified Dialogue programme with NATO.[16]

In March 2008, under Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko,
Ukraine sent an official letter of application a Membership Action Plan (MAP), the first step in joining
NATO. These leaders however guaranteed their opposition that membership in any military alliance
would not pass without public approval in a referendum.[132] This idea of had gained support from
a number of NATO leaders, particularly those in Central and Eastern Europe.[133] Russian leaders
like Prime Minister and President-Elect Dmitri Medvedev made clear their opposition to Ukraine
membership, and leading up to the April 2008 Bucharest summit their emissary actively lobbied
against a Ukrainian MAP. After some debate among members at the summit, NATO Secretary
General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer declared in a press conference that Ukraine, together with Georgia,
would someday join NATO, but neither would begin Membership Action Plans.[134] At this summit,
Russian President Vladimir Putin, in his last international speech before switching jobs with Medvedev,
listed his grievances with NATO, and called Ukrainian membership "a direct threat" to his country.[135]




Anti-NATO signs in Feodosiya in 2006
According to numerous independent polls conducted since 2002, Ukrainian public opinion on NATO
membership is split, with the majority of those polled generally against joining the military alliance
and many identifying it as a threat.[136][137] According to the FOM-Ukraine pollster, as of April
2009, 57% of Ukrainians polled were against joining the alliance, while 21% were in favor.[138] A
Gallup poll conducted in October 2008 showed that 45% associated NATO as a threat to their country,
while only 15% associated it with protection.[139] And a Pew Research Center poll in March 2010
further showed the opposition was particularly high, at 74%, among ethnic Russians.[140] Protests,
such as the 2006 anti-NATO protests in Feodosiya, have taken place by opposition blocs against the
idea, and petitions signed urging the end of relations with NATO. Influential Ukrainian politicians like
Yuriy Yekhanurov and Yulia Tymoshenko have stated Ukraine will not join NATO as long as the public
opposed the move.

The 2010 election returned Viktor Yanukovych as Ukrainian President and marked a turnaround in
Ukraine's relations with NATO. In February 2010, he stated that Ukraine's relations with NATO were
currently "well-defined", and that there was "no question of Ukraine joining NATO". He said the issue
of Ukrainian membership of NATO might "emerge at some point, but we will not see it in the immediate
future."[141] While visiting Brussels in March 2010, he further stated that there would be no change
to Ukraine's status as a member of the alliance's outreach program.[142] He later reiterated during a
trip to Moscow that Ukraine would remain a "European, non-aligned state."[143][144] Then, on 3 June
2010 the Ukrainian parliament voted to exclude the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and
NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy in a bill drafted by Yanukovych himself.
[145] The bill forbids Ukraine's membership of any military bloc, but allows for co-operation with alliances
such as NATO.[146]

Following months of "Euromaidan" street protests that began because of his refusal to sign an Association
Agreement with the European Union in favor of deals from Russia, President Yanukovych fled Kiev in
February 2014, ultimately to Russia, and parliament voted to remove him from his post. This brought
another possible change in direction of Ukraine's association with Europe and by extension NATO, and
protests in ethnically Russian areas led to Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula in March.
As part of an effort to assuage concerned groups, newly installed Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk
addressed the topic in a Russian language speech on 18 March 2014, emphasizing that Ukraine is not
seeking NATO membership.[147] U.S. President Barack Obama echoed this position the following week,
while however calling for greater NATO presence in Eastern Europe.[148] Professor Edward W. Walker
of UC Berkeley's Program in Eurasian and East European Studies proposed a trilateral treaty between the
US, Russia, and Ukraine that would permanently cement Ukraine's neutrality.[149] However, NATO head
Anders Fogh Rasmussen stated that NATO membership is still an option for Ukraine,[150] and subsequent
polling showed a sharp decline in opposition to membership.[151]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Ukraine

[Cidersomerset]

Ukraine says analysis of the black box flight recorders from the downed Malaysia Airlines plane shows it was destroyed by shrapnel from a rocket blast. Dutch investigators, however, say they have not shared data with Kiev, calling the claim “premature.”

There is no way the UK/US are going to blame Kiev for blowing up the plane,
which I have stated earlier. After refreshing my memory with the above post,
I'm more convinced the black box will be broken or more likely 'inconclusive'
as the Kiev report says.......


==================================================

Russian foreign minister says "I hope nobody will try to cover their tracks"...



Lavrov: Time to investigate MH17, not to cover tracks


u_usryQ7pUg


Published on 28 Jul 2014


Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has urged Western partners against
jumping to conclusions over what caused the MH17 crash before an international
investigation into the catastrophe is conducted. MORE QUOTES: http://on.rt.com/liin8m


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BBC report confirming the story a couple of posts up.....

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


28 July 2014 Last updated at 21:47

MH17 jet 'downed by missile shrapnel,' says UkraineMembers of the Dutch and
Australian forensic investigation teams in Donetsk, Ukraine on 28 July 2014.
Fighting in the vicinity of the MH17 wreckage prevented international investigators from accessing the site

Security officials in Ukraine say the downed Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine
suffered an explosive loss of pressure after it was punctured by shrapnel from a
missile.

They say the information came from the plane's flight data recorders, which are
being analysed by British experts.

However, it remains unclear who fired a missile, with pro-Russia rebels and Ukraine blaming each other.

Many of the 298 people killed on board flight MH17 were from the Netherlands.

Dutch investigators leading the inquiry into the crash have refused to comment on
the Ukrainian claims.

read more....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28532525

[onawah]

Flight MH17: What You're Not Being Told
From Forbidden Knowledge



Within minutes of the crash of
MH17, the U.S. government and
the Western media pinned the
responsibility Russia, long before
investigators had time to even
arrive at the scene, much less
provide any actual conclusions.

The geopolitical implications of
this event are immense. Depending
on how much mileage Washington
can get out of it, the downing of
flight MH17 could end up being
pivotal.

Anyone who knows their history,
knows that media coverage of events
like these often lay the psychological
groundwork for war.

So who was REALLY responsible for
the downing of flight MH17? First let's
start by asking some obvious
questions.

Why was flight MH17 routed over
directly over a War Zone? This was
not its normal flight path. In fact, it
was 300 miles off course. Normally,
planes this flight path is significantly
further south. The decision to allow
MH17 to fly over Donetsk was the
decision of the authorities in Kiev.

To fully understand the implications
of this decision, we have to realize
that for the past month and a half,
Eastern Ukraine has been an Active
War Zone.

In THIS context, Kiev's decision to
route a civilian airliner 300 miles north
of its normal flight path, putting it
directly over an Active War Zone - a
War Zone where they, themselves
were the primary aggressor, wasn't
just stupid - it was CRIMINAL.

Remember, the guys in Kiev are the
US-EU puppets, installed last Spring.

Eastern Ukraine became a War Zone
because they held referendum to
declare their independence from the
Western-installed government in Kiev.
They had a massive voter turn-out
(much higher, in fact than the official
elections that Washington endorsed).

Kiev responded by attempting to bomb
them into submission. The so called
"international community" has just
stood by and watched.

So let's tread carefully and just ask a
few more questions that these so-called
journalists in the mainstream media are
neglecting to ask. For example: Why
hasn't the US government released its
satellite pictures of the area right after
the event?

Russia has released many satellite
images. These first two images (seen in
the video, above) are dated July 14, and
according to Russia they show Buk missile
launch systems located about 8 kilometers
northwest of the city of Lugansk (an area
under the control of the Western-backed
Ukrainian military).

The next two images were taken on
July 17th. The first one shows that the
Ukrainian military's Buk systems are no
longer in their previous position, and the
last image shows them in a new position
5 kilometers north of Donetsk.

Washington has not responded to this
information, and interestingly has
lowered its tone since.

On July 21 Russia also released a radar
image showing what they claimed to be an
SU-27 fighter jet in close proximity to
flight MH17. Ukraine had previously
denied that there were any military
aircraft near MH17, but they then
reversed their story and said that the
SU-27 was "escorting" the flight.

Investigative journalist Robert Parry, who's
best known for his work exposing the Iran
Contra scandal in the 1980s has published
an article stating that one of his trusted
sources has informed him that "US
intelligence agencies do have detailed
satellite images of the likely missile battery
that launched the fateful missile, but the
battery appears to have been under the
control of Ukrainian government troops
dressed in what look like Ukrainian
uniforms."

Does this mean that we should just take
Robert Parry and his source at their word?
No, of course not.

But by the same token, why is the
Western media taking the US
government's word at face value
without demanding evidence?


Washington is a den of pathological liars.
Their word is less than worthless, and it
certainly doesn't count as proof. Robert
Parry's account, on the other hand is
validated by the satellite images released
by Russia, and like it or not, this is the
strongest evidence that has been released
so far.

If Washington actually had evidence
to support their case, don't you think
they would have released it by now?

You might be thinking, "If any of this is true,
why on Earth would the US go out of their
way to target Russia like this? This is really
extreme." Might it have something to do with
the fact that just this month, the BRICS
nations met and put together an international
development bank specifically designed to
rival the World Bank and the IMF? Could it
be because Russia is now openly pushing for
the de-dollarization of international trade?

Russia poses a threat to the dollar. That's all
the motive the US government has ever
needed.

Video (just over 14 minutes):

b67OGUsQC44
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/page/26572.html

[Cidersomerset]

GRAPHIC: Five killed after home for elderly shelled in Lugansk, E.Ukraine

Apbv6VzssY0


Published on 29 Jul 2014


A home for the elderly in Lugansk was targeted in a shelling attack on Monday,
leaving at least five people dead. The facility is located in the Artemovksy
District of South-Western Lugansk.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Media frenzy after US releases 'evidence' that Russia shelled Ukraine

OiJ_K86NQY0


Published on 29 Jul 2014


The US State Department has released satellite images via email which
it says act as “evidence” that Russia is firing rockets at Ukrainian troops
across the border. The images were posted on Twitter by the US
ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt. RT’s Gayane Chichakyan reports.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US claims Russia fired on Ukraine, Russia calls it a lie

SM5_LQdAdOk


Published on 28 Jul 2014


The US released Sunday what government officials claim are satellite photos
proving Russia fired artillery into Ukraine. Four images attributed to the Director of
National Intelligence show what are purported to be artillery launchers and ground
scarring, but the locations and other details are not included. RT’s Meghan Lopez
reports from the State Department with more details.

[Cidersomerset]

looking around the world and things seem to be ramping up for something ??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US wants WWIII because its big banks are insolvent: Henderson

Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 05:55 By david-icke



No, the US wants World War 3 because it is controlled by the Rothschilds who want a third war as
part of the plan for total global control.


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/373149_Henderson.jpg


‘An American author and columnist says the United States wants to start a third world war because
most of its big banks are insolvent.

Dean Henderson with the Veterans Today made the remarks in a phone interview with Press TV on
Monday as he commented on recent remarks made by White House Deputy National Security Advisor
for Strategic Communications Ben Rhodes who said “stronger” European sanctions “are on the
table” against Russia.

Short vid on link.....http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/28/373149/insolvent-us-banks-want-wwiii/


“That is just more aggression from the United States and from Anglo-Israeli-US bankers alliance
which seems to be just trying every angle to provoke Russians to the World War III because all
the big banks are insolvent,” Henderson told Press TV.’

Read more: US wants WWIII because its big banks are insolvent: Henderson



http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/28/373149/insolvent-us-banks-want-wwiii/


=====================================================================






The Lessons of World War I: The 100th Anniversary of the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 06:19 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Franz_ferdinand-400x489.jpg


‘June 28, 2014 is the 100th anniversary of the famous political assassination in Sarajevo, Serbia, that
was the spark that started World War I, the war that was widely called “the war to end all wars”,
because of the unendurable mutual mass slaughter of an entire generation of young European men
(on all sides of the war).

On June 28, 1914, the heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Archduke Franz Ferdinand,
one of the wealthiest men in Austria, was murdered in Sarajevo.’

Read more: The Lessons of World War I: The 100th Anniversary of the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-lessons-of-world-war-i-the-100th-anniversary-of-the-assassination-of-archduke-franz-ferdinand/5388551

[Hervé]

Flight MH17: What You're Not Being Told
From Forbidden Knowledge
[...]

Hi, onawah,

glad you caught that one as very important; I agree: see post # 761 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858696&viewfull=1#post858696) :)

[Cidersomerset]

U.S. General Says Pentagon Looking At Possible Military Options For Russia

h1bk1bhBYio


==============================================

'EXERSIZE' .........."Alarm bells anyone" ?




UK to send ‘full military battle group’ to Poland to show strength of the West

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:06 By david-icke

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/page/express_logo.png



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1510-587x329.jpg


‘The UK will send a full battle group comprising 1,350 personnel and more than 350 armoured and other
vehicles to the exercise in Poland as part of a NATO package to reassure Eastern European allies, the
Defence Secretary announced today.

During a joint visit to Warsaw with Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond, Michael Fallon announced the
UK will take part in Exercise Black Eagle in October – the largest British commitment to the region since 2008.

This new commitment is one of a planned series of NATO manoeuvres due to take place throughout
the Autumn in support of allies in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states.’

Read more: UK to send 'full military battle group' to Poland to show strength of the West

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/492949/Troops-in-NATO-military-Eastern-Europe-exercise-to-show-Western-alliance-strength

[Cidersomerset]

Surface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders




New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:32 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2821-587x396.jpg


‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight recorder is in England and is being
evaluated. What can come of this?

May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is
certainly shocking. Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation,
but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes
and some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards, these are much smaller and round
in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.

Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double aluminium skin and bent them outwards.
That is to say, splinters from inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open rivets
have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is exclusively in the cockpit area….’

Read more: New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/

[Cidersomerset]

Over 1,100 killed, 3,500 wounded in E.Ukraine op, civilian toll climbs daily


dINpRvfohQU


Published on 28 Jul 2014


Five civilians have been killed in the eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk, one of the hubs
of anti-Kiev resistance and a main target of the Ukrainian military. In its most recent
report, the UN is raising the alarm over the growing number of civilians killed in the
region by artillery fire, which has been hitting residential areas.


RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

[Cidersomerset]

Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2181-587x329.jpg


‘This could almost be a smoking gun of the false flag attack with respect to MH 17. Some five hours after
the loss of MH 17, the Ukrainian Security Service published a recording of alleged pro-Russian military
officers led by commander Bes, who is based in Gorlovka (Horlivka), allegedly confirming that they shot
down the Malaysian Boeing 777.’

Read more: Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka




http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ca/2014/07/another-false-flag-lh-17-likely-downed.html

[Snoweagle]

U.S. General Says Pentagon Looking At Possible Military Options For Russia

h1bk1bhBYio


==============================================

'EXERSIZE' .........."Alarm bells anyone" ?
UK to send ‘full military battle group’ to Poland to show strength of the West

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:06 By david-icke
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/page/express_logo.png
http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1510-587x329.jpg
‘The UK will send a full battle group comprising 1,350 personnel and more than 350 armoured and other vehicles to the exercise in Poland as part of a NATO package to reassure Eastern European allies, the Defence Secretary announced today.
During a joint visit to Warsaw with Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond, Michael Fallon announced the UK will take part in Exercise Black Eagle in October – the largest British commitment to the region since 2008.
This new commitment is one of a planned series of NATO manoeuvres due to take place throughout the Autumn in support of allies in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states.’

Read more: UK to send 'full military battle group' to Poland to show strength of the West
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/492949/Troops-in-NATO-military-Eastern-Europe-exercise-to-show-Western-alliance-strength

This is extremely concerning. When the Dollar collapses the US and EU aligned nations (the Axis of Evil) will persecute national food shortages and loss of energy for their populations. "Irish food famine part deux). There will be rioting in the streets and Mercenaries will be used to quell unrest. THE MERCENARIES ARE ALREADY HERE IN THE UK. Some I have personally met were "Serbs" or ex patriots from the Yugoslav region though I have little else to elaborate on their business. There will be zero empathy. Stadiums will be prison camps during the winter and it will be the coldest winter ever on record.

Therefore, it appears the incidents of the Ukraine MH17 and Gaza, whilst failing at the first attempt to promote all out warfare doesn't seem to have quashed the intent to depopulate the UK or indeed our "friends".

[Cidersomerset]

This is extremely concerning. When the Dollar collapses the US and EU aligned nations (the Axis of Evil) will persecute national food shortages and loss of energy for their populations. "Irish food famine part deux). There will be rioting in the streets and Mercenaries will be used to quell unrest. THE MERCENARIES ARE ALREADY HERE IN THE UK. Some I have personally met were "Serbs" or ex patriots from the Yugoslav region though I have little else to elaborate on their business. There will be zero empathy. Stadiums will be prison camps during the winter and it will be the coldest winter ever on record.

Therefore, it appears the incidents of the Ukraine MH17 and Gaza, whilst failing at the first attempt to promote all out warfare doesn't seem to have quashed the intent to depopulate the UK or indeed our "friends".



This is what concerns me and the fact things are being vamped/hyped up all over
the world more than usual....

'My esoteric side, says not in my reality' .....but these victims are suffering....



* Scary*...Ebola Virus Could Spread Worldwide, Experts Warn // War , Famine, Drought ..Is the stage being set ?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73343---Scary-...Ebola-Virus-Could-Spread-Worldwide-Experts-Warn-War-Famine-Drought-..Is-the-stage-being-set

[Hervé]

Surface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:32 By david-icke

[...]

Read more: New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/

An interesting comment to the above article:


HoustonReal (http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/#) • 13 hours ago (http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/#comment-1508926680) This article uses a picture of an SU-27, but the German "experts" claim Ukrainian SU-25s shot down MH17. One large problem, the SU-25 Frogfoot is not a fighter, but an attack aircraft analogous to the USAF A-10. It has a maximum service ceiling of 23,000 feet when unloaded, and around 16,000 with full weapons. MH17 was cruising at 33K feet, 10K feet (almost 2 miles) higher than the SU-25 can reach.

It is also too slow to effectively intercept a Boeing 777, with a maximum airspeed of only 31 mph above the airliner's cruising speed. Modern interceptors need to be much faster to allow the fighters to quickly overtake a target and maneuver for as gun or middle shot. Sub-sonic attack aircraft make poor interceptors against any other jet aircraft. If they get lucky, they might be able to down a helicopter or prop-driven plane. What kind of aviation "expert" can ignore the inability of an SU-25 to intercept an airliner at cruising altitude and speed?So, now, the misdirection points towards Kiev... leaving Schiphol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiphol) alone...

At least, and at last, they are looking at the right kind of pieces of evidence!

[Operator]

"Wars and rumors of wars ... "

See also my post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73330-Timmerman-s-UN-Speech-based-upon-Provable-Lies--Mainstream-Media-LIES-&p=858828&viewfull=1#post858828) about war with socialistic Venezuela.

So if I understand correctly there was a workable peaceful way of investigating the crash site,
now Ukraine decided to conquer that site in the middle of the investigation, the US (west) will
start building tension in Poland and Putin is to blame for a rising chance of war in that area ?

Sometimes I wonder why I chose to reincarnate in this world full of stupidity ... Yeah, I know
to restore the balance with some sanity. But this is so ridiculous that I wonder if it works.
When I talk with family and friends (some of them in the NL) it seems the demonizing has
already done its work ... they simply don't seem to get it.

Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?

[ktlight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6aiKtQ6hZ8

"Published on Jul 29, 2014
Images of plane from:
http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking... (http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking-photos-prove-crashed-malaysian-jet-was-mh-370/)"

This is an interesting point of view.

[Snoweagle]

Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka
new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke
http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2181-587x329.jpg
‘This could almost be a smoking gun of the false flag attack with respect to MH 17. Some five hours after
the loss of MH 17, the Ukrainian Security Service published a recording of alleged pro-Russian military
officers led by commander Bes, who is based in Gorlovka (Horlivka), allegedly confirming that they shot
down the Malaysian Boeing 777.’

Read more: Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka
http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ca/2014/07/another-false-flag-lh-17-likely-downed.html

Somehow that doesn't resonate with me that the SU-25s would shoot any aircraft out of the sky like that, it just doesn't add up. Why redirect an innocent airliner into a region and altitude to be shot down by your own planes and risk the global backlash of opinion when the desire is to blame Russia?

What has been said here by Avalonians in this thread does support bombs on the plane placed there prior to the Malaysian airliner departing Schiphol airport in Holland. By having bombs on board to be remotely triggered requires only on the "red herring" of having the Buks and SU-25s conjoin over the region to infer the missile was responsible for the explosion impacting the aircraft. I suspect the Buk radar soldier targetted the SU-25(s) and not the airliner so witnesses would confirm the missile had been launched and the blame would be confined to that story.

What I couldn't understand was why the SU-25(s) had deployed anti missile measures if IT hadn't been targeted. I believe three quite separate events took place:
(a) the planted bombs, in the control of a "higher authority" were detonated at a point of THEIR choosing, a responsibility not entrusted to military "grunts" in the field of operations.
(b) the redirection and altitude change directed by Kiev airport needed to occur soon enough to ensure an "alarm" status existed to launch the SU-25s and for interception with the airliner.
(c) with all three aircraft (airliner and two fighters) in the fire zone the Buk operator would be "tasked" to fire on the SU-25s (one missile or two?) which they easily avoided and destroying the missile(s) leaving just the bomb(s) detonation to be remotely activated by satellite, comms, etc.

This 3 step process delivers plausible deniability at every stage and minimises (on a paper plan) the influence of error.

So this second aircraft now being shot down is just creating a smoke screen to enforce the first shooting, with MSM squealing "they did it again". When in actual fact, this is just part of the cover-up process which will now drag on with other innocents losing their lives.

A similar thing happened in Hungary, Budapest when four Israelis were blown up in a taxi journey. When the world quizzed the Israeli government, who denied any responsibility, low and behold, a couple of weeks later a visiting tour of innocent Israeli civilians was also blown up. Israel denied that also but it was enough to quell criticism of the State and the world moved on.

[Humble Janitor]

How could it be the same plane?

Wasn't the other plane an inside job (pilot in on hijacking)?

[Cidersomerset]

I might be getting my SU's in a muddle , the SU 25 is a ground
attack aircraft as you point out and the SU 27 is an all weather
fighter. There seems to be various variations, both have cannon.

So could of the SU-27 fired its cannon ?


The Su-27 is armed with a single 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov
GSh-30-1 cannon in the starboard wingroot, and has up to 10
hardpoints for missiles and other weapons. Its standard missile
armament for air-to-air combat is a mixture of Vympel R-73
(AA-11 Archer), Vympel R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') weapons, the
latter including extended range and IR guided models


http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/fsu27_p_08_l.jpg



http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/russia/su-27_2.jpg

http://www.aviastar.org/russian-aircraft/flanker/


http://shrrr.gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/7613/1246889460/02.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Su-25Ub.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Su-25Ub.JPG

The cannon is located in a compartment beneath the cockpit, mounted on a
load-bearing beam attached to the cockpit floor and the forward fuselage support
structure. The nose is fitted with distinctive twin pitot probes and hinges up
for service access.[8]

UkraineUkrainian Air Force. Ukraine obtained 92 Su-25s of differing variants following
the country's independence in the wake of the break-up of the USSR. Currently, the
Ukrainian Air Force operates approximately 60 Su-25, Su-25UBs, and Su-25UTGs,
which are operated by the 299th Independent Assault Regiment (299 OShAP) based
at Kulbakino, Mykolaiv Oblast, and at Saki in the Crimea, and the 456th Assault
Regiment (456 ShAP) at Chortkiv. Up to 30 Su-25s are reportedly stored at the
4070th Reserve Base. Evidently, three Su-25s sold to Macedonia came from this
reserve pool.[29] Also, Ukrainian Air Force modernized two types of the Su-25,
one of them is Su-25M1 and Su-25UBM1.[76

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is confusing because the interpreter and summery talk about an SU25 , though
the title says SU 27.........Or have we discussed this earlier, my brains a bit frazzled
after posting a lot this morning ..LOL



7/17/14 17:17 Two Böeing 777, Ukrainian Su-27s fighter jets, NASA satellites and ISS flying over

cukgYU6Lry4


Published on 21 Jul 2014


Malaysian Twin Böeing Mystery -- on 7/17 at 17:17 Soviet military (ISS) detected
both MH17 and MH370 (LOST on 3/7 at 17:17) over Donetsk en route Rostov-on-
Don trying to overfly Russia's newest K-300P Bastion-P coastal defence missile
system - The Red Army generals claim MH17 was a copycat of 1983 KAL007
provocation - The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining
height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. At the moment of
the MH17 crash an American satellite (Norwegian AWACS from Ørland) was flying
over the area of eastern Ukraine. Kiev must explain why the military jet was
tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
http://youtu.be/TTJL829VUV8

[Snoweagle]

"Wars and rumors of wars ... "

See also my post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73330-Timmerman-s-UN-Speech-based-upon-Provable-Lies--Mainstream-Media-LIES-&p=858828&viewfull=1#post858828) about war with socialistic Venezuela.

So if I understand correctly there was a workable peaceful way of investigating the crash site,
now Ukraine decided to conquer that site in the middle of the investigation, the US (west) will
start building tension in Poland and Putin is to blame for a rising chance of war in that area ?

Sometimes I wonder why I chose to reincarnate in this world full of stupidity ... Yeah, I know
to restore the balance with some sanity. But this is so ridiculous that I wonder if it works.
When I talk with family and friends (some of them in the NL) it seems the demonizing has
already done its work ... they simply don't seem to get it.

Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?

It is rather like taking part in "your own death" dance, you can see it coming and you just have to wait your turn to take part. Are you holding a strong enough hand?

When my children were younger I used to tell them when the subject of warfare came up the world is going to be beautiful place for them and soon we wouldn't need armies.
How naive I was. How I and everybody else fell for this future.

And Operator, we're in this together whether we like it or not. All we can do is do our best for one another. The Freemasonic Cabal will rot in hell.

[ktlight]

That was what was said about it, but, since then, there is a plethora of info to be examined.

[Humble Janitor]

A summary of the video would be appreciated though. I should have stated that.

[Sunny-side-up]

Humble Janitor

Default Re: Was The Malaysian Plane In Ukraine The Same One as In March - Joaquin
How could it be the same plane?

Wasn't the other plane an inside job (pilot in on hijacking)?


ktlight

That was what was said about it, but, since then, there is a plethora of info to be examined.

Inside job, killing of certain passengers of merit, etc, etc

Who owns what, who benefits, Kill the first passengers off, plan saved for another bay to kill off more passengers that are doing worth to humanity.

We are all pawns to them, the airline is a pawn, who owns what these days. The thing is we aren't supposed to be awake enough to see their evil doings. We have seen things done by them that are beyond the belief of the sheeple, we know they are able and willing to do anything they desire, we are just cannon fodder, pawns!

If there is the slightest coincidence or query of an event well! Nothing is a mistake or accident in my mind any more

[Operator]

Somehow that doesn't resonate with me that the SU-25s would shoot any aircraft out of the sky like that, it just doesn't add up. Why redirect an innocent airliner into a region and altitude to be shot down by your own planes and risk the global backlash of opinion when the desire is to blame Russia?

What has been said here by Avalonians in this thread does support bombs on the plane placed there prior to the Malaysian airliner departing Schiphol airport in Holland. By having bombs on board to be remotely triggered requires only on the "red herring" of having the Buks and SU-25s conjoin over the region to infer the missile was responsible for the explosion impacting the aircraft. I suspect the Buk radar soldier targetted the SU-25(s) and not the airliner so witnesses would confirm the missile had been launched and the blame would be confined to that story.

What I couldn't understand was why the SU-25(s) had deployed anti missile measures if IT hadn't been targeted. I believe three quite separate events took place:
(a) the planted bombs, in the control of a "higher authority" were detonated at a point of THEIR choosing, a responsibility not entrusted to military "grunts" in the field of operations.
(b) the redirection and altitude change directed by Kiev airport needed to occur soon enough to ensure an "alarm" status existed to launch the SU-25s and for interception with the airliner.
(c) with all three aircraft (airliner and two fighters) in the fire zone the Buk operator would be "tasked" to fire on the SU-25s (one missile or two?) which they easily avoided and destroying the missile(s) leaving just the bomb(s) detonation to be remotely activated by satellite, comms, etc.

This 3 step process delivers plausible deniability at every stage and minimises (on a paper plan) the influence of error.

So this second aircraft now being shot down is just creating a smoke screen to enforce the first shooting, with MSM squealing "they did it again". When in actual fact, this is just part of the cover-up process which will now drag on with other innocents losing their lives.

A similar thing happened in Hungary, Budapest when four Israelis were blown to blown up in a taxi journey. When the world quizzed the Israeli government, who denied any responsibility, low and behold a couple of weeks later a visiting tour of innocent civilians was also blown up. Israel denied that also but it was enough to quell criticism of the State and the world moved on.

Thanks for your analysis ...
But keep in mind that none of the three separate elements have been proven yet.
Maybe the BUK accusations were only made up to blame the 'other' party, there are no eyewitnesses
or other media that support a launch of ground-to-air missile launch.
And your scenario also works even without a SU-25 shooting the airliner down.

If there was a bomb on board they have full control. If the plan fails you can decide not to let the
bomb explode and try another time. You then deliberately reroute a plane into the war zone and
wait to see if they respond. In this case they responded with 2 SU-25 that were said (proof?) to
bank away a couple of minutes before MH17 vanished from the radar. For now I Interpret that as
they inspected the plane and returned to base. But I could easily be wrong of course.
And although also images support the 'bomb on board' theory we need hard evidence for that.
So far they prematurely concluded from the black-box data that the plane depressurized in mid-air
so it was hit by a missile but that's of course not necessarily true.

The fact that each party with full confidence accused the other one based on speculations means
they were sure of one thing: "They didn't do it, so it must be the other one".
That's where a third party comes in ... The third party doesn't mind who will be blamed as long
as all fingers point to a patsy. Again, I could be wrong of course but I am also doubtful that the
opportunity will be there to detect the truth with hard facts.

[Hervé]

Don't you guys keep up-to-date of what's happening on your own forum?

See: Photos suggest crashed Malaysian jet was MH-370 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73186-Photos-suggest-crashed-Malaysian-jet-was-MH-370)


Edit:

The above was my comment in another that started with this:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6aiKtQ6hZ8

"Published on Jul 29, 2014
Images of plane from:
http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking... (http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking-photos-prove-crashed-malaysian-jet-was-mh-370/)"

This is an interesting point of view.

... and which has little to nothing to do with this main thread.

[Snoweagle]

A summary of the video would be appreciated though. I should have stated that.

We would love a summary too, here's the link to the discussions:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down/page25

[Cidersomerset]

John Kerry is blaming President Putin for supporting the rebels, and the
continuation of all the fighting. Its their fault that the crash investigation site is to
dangerous for the investigators, and its the rebels fault that the Ukrainian forces
are attacking them and killing hundreds and wounding thousands of civilians. The
US will give more money to help prop up Kiev and we will find more excuses for
more sanctions against Russia, If they do not stop supporting the rebels....Blah Blah


The two BBC reports below show 'CLEARLY MR.KERRY ' it the advancing
Ukrainian army shelling the crash site area that is stopping the investigators
not the rebels. Even though Kiev promised not to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Kerry, Ukraine FM on MH17 crash, Russia sanctions (recorded live feed)


7FTwlZ9QlNc


MH17 crash: Kerry warns of more Russia sanctions40 minutes ago

US Secretary of State John Kerry has warned of further sanctions against Russia unless
it puts pressure on pro-Russian separatists near the MH17 crash site in Ukraine.

Mr Kerry said the rebels had displayed an "appalling disregard for human decency", with
heavy fighting preventing some bodies being retrieved from the site 12 days after the disaster.

Speaking at a joint news briefing with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin in Washington,
he said Russia had failed to show "a shred of evidence" that it wished to end the bloodshed
in Ukraine, and warned of further sanctions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



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Fighting intensifies near MH17 crash site8 hours ago

Rq8R7tqL3qk


Fresh fighting, close to where the Malaysia Airlines jet went
down in Ukraine, has prevented international monitors from
accessing the crash site.

It comes as security officials in Ukraine say the plane suffered
an explosive loss of pressure after it was punctured by shrapnel from a missile.

Tom Burridge reports from eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28524749


-------------------------------------------------------------------




XTAvqrUbg6A


Reports of heavy fighting in eastern Ukraine27 July 2014 Last updated at 22:38 BST

There are reports of heavy fighting in eastern Ukraine, close to the site
where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed.

Government forces are trying to regain control of the the area from
pro-Russian separatists.

It means a team of Dutch and Australian police officers have been
forced to postpone a visit to the crash site.

Tom Burridge reports from Kharkiv.

[Operator]

So I suppose that Kerry assumes responsibility for the death toll in Syria because they arm
the rebels there and for the Palestinian victims because the US supports arming Israel ?

How naive can one be?

[Cidersomerset]

So I suppose that Kerry assumes responsibility for the death toll in Syria because they arm
the rebels there and for the Palestinian victims because they support arming Israel ?

How naive can one be?




95% American-made: Where do Israel's bombs & bullets come from

7IqNXDr2o1o


Published on 27 Jul 2014


Many weapons used by Israel come from the US, a major
supplier to the IDF. RT's Marina Portnaya reports.

RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air


===================================================
===================================================


This is also a massive distraction while Israel is committing a mini holocaust on the
civilians in Gaza....


Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 16:20 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2241-587x415.jpg


‘This narrow strip of land that used to be called “the Gaza Strip,” already one of the more densely
populated places on Earth, is growing dramatically smaller. The Israeli military, relentlessly and
methodically, is driving people out of the 3-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to
protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the
Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory.

What that means on the ground is scenes of extraordinary devastation in places like the
Al Shajaya district approaching Gaza’s eastern frontier, and Beit Hanoun in the north. These
were crowded neighborhoods less than three weeks ago. Now they have been literally
depopulated, the residents joining more than 160,000 internally displaced people in refuges
and makeshift shelters. Apartment blocks are fields of rubble, and as I move through this
hostile landscape the phrase that keeps ringing in my head is “scorched earth.”’

http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent/jcr:content/body/inlineimage.img.800.jpg/1406580014914.cached.jpg


Read more: Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Operator]

Here are some extensive articles that suggest that mh17 was shot down by a 30 mm canon which is fitted on the SU-25's.

http://www.ninefornews.nl/maleisische-boeing-777-uit-de-lucht-geschoten-door-oekraiense-straaljager/

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019/2791311/neues-deutschland-nva-raketenspezialist-mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/schockierende-analyse-zum-abschuss-der-malaysian-mh-017/

The first is in Dutch (summary of the 2 German articles) and last 2 in German.

Please use Google translate to get the articles in your own language. They are too extensive for me
to translate and correct them. Especially the 2 German articles seem to be by experts of a
non-involved country.

[linksplatinum]

http://iamamalaysian.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/new-last-photo-of-mh17-exposes-reuters-confirms-passengers-boarded-another-flight/

July 29, 2014
… report by DAHBOO7, published on July 28, 2014

Noted:
* Flight MH17 – What You’re Not Being Told
* Neil Keenan Update | The Last Line of Defense
Busted! The cabal’s “By way of deception thou shalt do war” exposed yet again! Do you still believe everything the mainstream media reports?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFzM6yE3qqc



Source: DAHBOO7 … http://www.undergroundworldnews.com

The evidence is now even stronger! We have a 2nd photo that shows that the plane boarded was MRC, Not MRD!

The flight MRC should have NEVER been there to begin with, according to flight logs!

It also exposes the fact that Reuters had an agent on the ground snapping the ‘Last Shots’ of MH17!

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-21…
https://www.facebook.com/search/more/…

Here’s the “Three Plane Ghosts” video (published on July 27) referred to above …


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAnGC82K-vU

US administration caught lieing through its teeth to try start WW3

And … MH17 Shot DOWN over UKRAINE is MISSING MALAYSIAN Flight 370?
Woh, the tragic false flag event is getting stranger as more information surface!

UPDATED!
* Breaking: Russian Satellite Imagery on MH17 (Black Box and New Evidence) … Black Box Proves Missile Didn’t Do It - Gordon Duff, Veterans Today

Noted:
* CrossTalk: MH17 Spin
* ‘Fake': Russian Defence Min rebuffs US sat image claims
* Breaking: Russian Satellite Imagery on MH17 … White House Has 24 Hours to Disprove
* WTF Is The Son Of The Former Israel Minster of Defense Doing Taking A Picture Of MH17, At The Same Place/Time As Passenger Cor Pan’s Final Shot?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dteO0aZTZf4

[sigma6]

Are we still allowed to post MH-17 updates here????

http://www.infowars.com/on-malaysian-crash-obamas-case-against-russia-disintegrates/

More support for the "Pieczenik Theory"

Popcorn! Peanuts! Candys! Smokes! Popcorn! Peanuts! Candys! Smokes! Step right up folks get 'em right here!



Tuesday the US government admitted it had been bluffing about its certainty that Russia was behind the downing of Malaysian Air Flight MH-17 over Ukraine.

This dramatic turn of events started with State Department Spokeswoman Marie Harf [as in harf harf! harf!] claiming Monday that the State Department’s certainty of Russian involvement in the apparent downing of the plane was primarily based on “social media” evidence.

That means with a likely budget of more than $100 billion, the US Intelligence Community is making decisions that may involve global nuclear war based on people’s Tweets and YouTubes!


Asked in Monday’s State Department briefing about US government evidence for its claims of Russian government involvement and separatist direct blame for the shooting down of the plane, Harf said:

You saw the Secretary yesterday speak very clearly about our assessment that this was an SA-11 fired from Russian-backed, separatist-controlled territory; that we know – we saw in social media afterwards, we saw videos, we saw photos of the pro-Russian separatists bragging about shooting down an aircraft.
She added:

Based on open information which is basically common sense, right – we know where it was fired from, we know who has this weapon

[ParakeetMGP]

Why can't anyone get into the "Science" anymore? I am tired of "Politics" I don't understand and can't read it. I just know that MH17 did not come to be this mess, because you had MH370! and everyone is into "Politics" about it, then realizing how "Delusional" this is. I'm waiting only to find out "Who Wakes Up"?

[Cidersomerset]

HS0XEQMajgA


Published on 29 Jul 2014


WATCH: President Obama delivers remarks on situation in Ukraine 7/29/2014.
Obama Increases Sanctions Against Russia: This ‘Is Not a New Cold War’
President Obama: "The main tool that we have to influence Russian behavior ...
is the impact [sanctions are] having on its economy"
President Obama says US will continue to suppose people of Ukraine video



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Short vid on link....http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

Ukraine conflict: Obama announces new Russia sanctions42 minutes ago

Sanctions will increase on Russia if it continues its current stance towards Ukraine, Barack Obama has said.

The US president warned Russia that it would become more isolated financially and
diplomatically if it did not support a peaceful resolution to the crisis in eastern Ukraine.

Moscow denies charges by the EU and US that it is supplying heavy weapons to the rebels.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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vhXGyhXGWGU



Ukraine crisis: Intense government and rebel clashes5 hours ago

For a third day, international air accident investigators have had to abandon plans to visit the
crash site of the Malaysian airliner in eastern Ukraine because of fighting.

Intense clashes between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian rebels in the region have killed a
number of civilians, according to local officials. Government forces are pushing rebel units
back towards their urban strongholds.

The Ukrainian Security and Defence Council says they've entered the towns of Shakh-tarsk
and Torez in the strategic rebel-held Donetsk region, as well as Lutu-hyne in Luhansk Region.

The Defence Minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk says militia
reinforcements from Luhansk are staging counter-attacks.

Tom Burridge reports from Kharkiv.

[Cidersomerset]

Satellite war imminent? US launches spy sats for orbital surveillance


LNuO7GzRe7A

Published on 29 Jul 2014


It's been described as the space based version of neighborhood watch.
The US has sent 2 military satellites into orbit to get a greater insight
into other countries activities in orbit.
RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘Why should Russian resources be given to Wall Street?’

zJd84SKYoPw

Published on 29 Jul 2014


It's been described as the space based version of neighborhood watch.
The US has sent 2 military satellites into orbit to get a greater insight
into other countries activities in orbit.
RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama announces new round of sanctions against Russia

b5OvfeSM_NQ


Published on 29 Jul 2014


President Barack Obama announced Tuesday a new round of economic
sanctions on the Russian economy. Targeting three major financial
institutions and a government owned shipbuilding company, the sanctions
are meant to punish the country for its purported role in fueling the violence
in eastern Ukraine. RT’s Meghan Lopez has more on the announcement.

[Cidersomerset]

Why can't anyone get into the "Science" anymore? I am tired of "Politics" I don't understand
and can't read it. I just know that MH17 did not come to be this mess, because you had MH370! and
everyone is into "Politics" about it, then realizing how "Delusional" this is. I'm waiting only to find
out "Who Wakes Up"?

I understand your frustration if you are not into politics . The trouble is the downing
of MH17 is all about politics, whether its a 'false flag' to put pressure on President
Putin or not. Its a vital part of the strategic picture imo.

You can always skip the mainstream news and alternate news vids and articles....

Amzer , Jackovesks , Silent feathers and some others have posted technical posts
analysing photos etc.....

We are all wide awake here , though I'm about to go to bed , work in the morning..LOL

You can always start a scientific thread on the data of the two planes........

[sigma6]

Anyone see this?

Evidence offered by US Government derived from Social Media Posts...
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/neocon-nwo-ww3/mh17-shot-down-over-ukraine-is-missing-malaysian-flight-370.html

dteO0aZTZf4


The Russians have released their radar readings. Why will the US not release its own satellite imagery of these events? They certainly have these Instead, the USG wants to sell us primitive drawings of the event made on a 4-year old Google Map and to broadcast discredited YouTube footage (created several hours before the missile attack) and from Social Media posts of alleged separatists, bragging about the shoot-down.

To watch the exchange, here between AP Reporter, Matt Lee and the State Department Deputy, Marie Harf is to watch a snarky, prevaricating government official exude toxic deceit, as he traps her into a corner, by pointing out that the only evidence being offered by the US Government for its claims derive from Social Media posts.

After bluffing for a while, she finally shoots back that she "doesn't have the clearance to de-classify" the US satellite images, which the journalist believes it is everybody's right to see, in a circumstance of a shoot-down of a civilian airliner.
And what of the numerous reports, from completely separate sources, that bodies found in the wreckage of the purported Flight MH17, were already heavily decomposed and drained of blood, within one day of the crash, with many showing evidence of having been tortured?

Several other details shown in this clip point to the the scene of the crash as being heavily tampered, with invalid passports neatly piled together with their boarding passes, showing no sign of a 33,000-foot impact or fire of any kind, let alone human use. Many were invalid, clipped or hole-punched and would not have been admissible for boarding the plane.

More importantly, the plane, itself shows evidence of not being the designated plane on more than one count. The ID for the plane scheduled for Flight MH 17 was 9M-MRD. However, a photo published by the Daily Mail, taken by a passenger about to board, shows its ID to be 9M-MRC. The ID of the plane used in MH 370 was 9M-MRO. It would not be very difficult to paint out an "O" into a "C"...

Another oddity is the fact that according to a FlightRadar24.com live flight tracker, in a screen capture made on July 18, the day following the crash, MH 17 (9M-MRD) was shown as "canceled" on the date of the crash. In addition, from the positioning of the window in front of the right wing and Emergency Exit - the window in the corresponding wreckage is exactly where the window was positioned on the craft of MH 370 (and in the passenger's photo).

This disparity was caught before the original photo from the scene was released publicly but we are shown here, the original photograph at the scene and the one published by the MSM, with a fake window, photoshopped in. (I wonder how this photoshop jocky feels about his or her job?)

I've said enough. Watch the clip and decide for yourself whether or not the USG's and its propaganda outlet, the mainstream media's portrayal of this event is on the up-and-up.

[Selene]

Why can't anyone get into the "Science" anymore? I am tired of "Politics" I don't understand
and can't read it. I just know that MH17 did not come to be this mess, because you had MH370! and
everyone is into "Politics" about it, then realizing how "Delusional" this is. I'm waiting only to find
out "Who Wakes Up"?

I understand your frustration if you are not into politics . The trouble is the downing
of MH17 is all about politics, whether its a 'false flag' to put pressure on President
Putin or not. Its a vital part of the strategic picture imo.

You can always skip the mainstream news and alternate news vids and articles....

Amzer , Jackovesks , Silent feathers and some others have posted technical posts
analysing photos etc.....

We are all wide awake here , though I'm about to go to bed , work in the morning..LOL

You can always start a scientific thread on the data of the two planes........

Agreed. Nobody said this would be easy. We are dealing with a very large picture here, a frustrating and blurry canvas of dots, smears and exclamation points, but the end image - if we are lucky - could go a long way toward exposing the dark agenda of this planet’s controllers.

On the 100th anniversary of the start of WWI, I see this as a race against time. Can we derail this false flag in time to prevent the greater holocaust of WW3? The American State Department has already altered some of its blather because of AltMedia exposure; opposition to the genocide in Gaza is growing, Russia and perhaps Germany are pushing back. The game goes on. We are getting better at what we do.

Every bit of info or detail counts. What it means and where/whether it fits the truth remains to be seen. This thread is an effort to collect all data on MH17 – and its effects - in a central place.

Patience, my friend. Your input is most welcome and perhaps a supplementary ‘pure science’ thread would be useful. It might be able to involve other experts.

Regards,

Selene

[Hervé]

Here are some extensive articles that suggest that mh17 was shot down by a 30 mm canon which is fitted on the SU-25's.

[...]

Quite a bit of problems with that one:



Surface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:32 By david-icke

[...]

Read more: New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/

An interesting comment from the comment section of the above article:


HoustonReal (http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/#) • 13 hours ago (http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/#comment-1508926680) This article uses a picture of an SU-27, but the German "experts" claim Ukrainian SU-25s shot down MH17. One large problem, the SU-25 Frogfoot is not a fighter, but an attack aircraft analogous to the USAF A-10. It has a maximum service ceiling of 23,000 feet when unloaded, and around 16,000 with full weapons. MH17 was cruising at 33K feet, 10K feet (almost 2 miles) higher than the SU-25 can reach.

It is also too slow to effectively intercept a Boeing 777, with a maximum airspeed of only 31 mph above the airliner's cruising speed. Modern interceptors need to be much faster to allow the fighters to quickly overtake a target and maneuver for as gun or middle shot. Sub-sonic attack aircraft make poor interceptors against any other jet aircraft. If they get lucky, they might be able to down a helicopter or prop-driven plane. What kind of aviation "expert" can ignore the inability of an SU-25 to intercept an airliner at cruising altitude and speed?So, now, the misdirection points towards Kiev... leaving Schiphol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiphol) alone...

At least, and at last, they are looking at the right kind of pieces of evidence!

So, that's for one thing.

The other thing is, when one looks at the pieces (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856351&viewfull=1#post856351) showing those holes, they look like someone has performed target practice at close range (might have been soldiers/militia on the ground beside fragments from the ground explosion when the plane hit the ground)... which led Some VT writer to think those pieces were "salted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858616&viewfull=1#post858616)."

[Operator]

...

So, that's for one thing.

The other thing is, when one looks at the pieces (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856351&viewfull=1#post856351) showing those holes, they look like someone has performed target practice at close range (might have been soldiers/militia on the ground beside fragments from the ground explosion when the plane hit the ground)... which led Some VT writer to think those pieces were "salted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858616&viewfull=1#post858616)."

Yep, you're right ... thanks for reminding me. ;)

[cursichella1]

Thanks for posting these, LinksP. I thought I understood what was what after reading this earlier thread:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73186-Photos-suggest-crashed-Malaysian-jet-was-MH-370&p=856717&viewfull=1#post856717

But failed to retain that, then saw your thread, watched the videos, and became more confused, so flipped back and forth between here, Jim Stone's page and the other post...it just got worse. I think it's from the 3 Ghost planes video and the parts he kept focusing on...over and over again, that, and back and forth to the lone chess piece......and all those M's, R's, H's and 9's, doors and flags and stripes upside down.... Gawd, is it just me???!

(This reminds me a lot of the confusion over the 911 flight numbers. It was, still is difficult to remember which did what...except maybe for 93. I imagine that is intentional.)

Anyway, would you, LinksP or someone who finds clarity in what happened please fill in the blanks for me? It may be that I'm just tired or work from the opposite side of the brain that handles abstract reasoning...


Are the MR-XYZ numbers model numbers (Like an Audi A4) or do they identify one specific plane (like a car's license plate)?

(Check one) ______ model number ________ one specific plane

MH370 is the flight that "disappeared" earlier this year. MH370 was supposed to have been an MR-____ and it:

(check one) ____was ___wasn't _____is still unknown.

MH17 was supposed to have been an MR-____.

Photos (passenger and Reuter's Israeli) of the actual plane that left Amsterdam show that it was an MR-_____.

Photos of the crashed plane show that the plane was an MR-_____, though it was painted to appear like an MR-______.

And what about the plane stored in Tel Aviv, where does that fit in?:

It does, because ____________________________________________________.

It doesn't, because___________________________________________________.

It is unknown____________

It was used to add to the confusion___________

Flight logs show that the MR-____________ was actually in _____________, so couldn't have been in______________.

Thanks and sorry for being such a ditz here.

[linksplatinum]

Looks like this may take a while to put all the pieces together, and do some homework for these queries. Give me a little time to sort through the details so I can give you an accurate analysis, I'll try and do my best to answer this that you ask of me. I know that originally the info gets a bit mixed up in the beginning until all of data gets filtered, and sorted out by many of us detectives who are digging into this, and believe me there are x amount of thousands of us going through the same debacle. Have a bit of patience and I will return my findings soon. Thanks cursichella

[sigma6]

It's nothing but pure propaganda in the news. All I read now is about how bad the Russians are. No news of scientific comparison of satellite data, but instead I am even seeing reports about Chinese "hacking" attempts. And this news report. They are making this sound like it has relevance. Not allowing EU citizens to buy Russian bonds and stocks? Now I know why Jim Rogers moved to Singapore. That guy is just too smart. This is what the US is reduced to in order to compete in the market??? Whoaa!!!

Shouldn't it be the other way? Barring Russia from buying US stocks and bonds???? But then again that wouldn't be much of a punishment would it?
UNBELIEVABLE! ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE! (Pieczenik theory)


BRUSSELS, Belgium -- Shocked into action by the downing of the Malaysian airliner and the resulting deaths of more than 200 Europeans, the European Union approved dramatically tougher economic sanctions Tuesday against Russia, to be followed swiftly by similar punitive measures from the U.S.
The new sanctions adopted by the Europeans over the uprising in Ukraine include an arms embargo on Moscow and a ban on the unapproved sale to the Russians of technology that has dual military and civilian uses or is sensitive, such as advanced equipment used in deep-sea and Arctic oil drilling, EU officials said.
To restrict Russia's access to Europe's capital markets, EU citizens and banks will be barred from purchasing certain bonds or stocks issued by state-owned Russian banks, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to make public statements.


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/eu-adopts-tough-new-economic-sanctions-on-russia-over-ukraine-1.1937450#ixzz38vdMotXY




European Union President Herman Van Rompuy and the head of the EU's executive, Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, said the 28-nation bloc meant to send a "strong warning" to Russian President Vladimir Putin that the "illegal annexation" of Crimea and Russia's destabilization of Ukraine cannot be tolerated.
"Furthermore, when the violence created spirals out of control and leads to the killing of almost 300 innocent civilians in their flight from the Netherlands to Malaysia, the situation requires urgent and determined response," the two top EU officials said in a statement.
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was blown out of the sky by a missile over eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 people aboard, most of them Europeans. The Obama administration has blamed separatists armed and supported by Russia.
The new EU sanctions bring Europe in sync with the U.S., which has been pressing the bloc to take a harder line against Moscow.
Europe, which has a much larger trade relationship with Russia than the U.S. does, had hesitated to take actions as strong as Washington's for fear among some leaders that sanctions could boomerang against their own economies.


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/eu-adopts-tough-new-economic-sanctions-on-russia-over-ukraine-1.1937450#ixzz38ve0e4Tt

[sigma6]

http://shar.es/L54Vr

[Rocky_Shorz]

just saw a notice of a UA flight that crashed in Ukraine

not mear a computer with a dumbphone...

[cursichella1]

Looks like this may take a while to put all the pieces together, and do some homework for these queries. Give me a little time to sort through the details so I can give you an accurate analysis, I'll try and do my best to answer this that you ask of me. I know that originally the info gets a bit mixed up in the beginning until all of data gets filtered, and sorted out by many of us detectives who are digging into this, and believe me there are x amount of thousands of us going through the same debacle. Have a bit of patience and I will return my findings soon. Thanks cursichella

Thank you, thank you! (I'm glad I'm not the only one!)

[KiwiElf]

Another "Tonkin Bay" *sigh*

[Redstar Kachina]

..........

[Cidersomerset]

The Art of War: NATO’s Global Offensive

new Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 06:57 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/stopnato.jpg



‘No holiday this summer for NATO; it’s working overtime. In preparation for the
Summit of Heads of State and Government on September 4-5 in Newport, Wales,
NATO will set down the blueprint for ‘”strategic adaptation” for military initiatives
directed against Russia.

As already announced by U.S. General Philip Breedlove, Supreme Allied
Commander in Europe, it “will cost money, time and effort.” The work has already
begun.’


v4nFLeV8Tnw

In Ukraine, while NATO intensifies its training of Kiev’s armed forces — financed by
Washington with $33 million — they are reactivating three military airports in the
southern region, used by jet fighter-bombers of the alliance. In Poland they have
just carried out an exercise of American Polish and Estonian paratroopers, jumping
from C-130J troop carrying aircraft that arrived from the German base at Ramstein.
In Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Lithuania various NATO military operations are
going on, with AWACS radar planes, F-16 fighters and warships in the Black Sea.

In Georgia, where NATO was received by a delegation from the Parliamentary
Assembly to accelerate Georgia’s entry into the Alliance, U.S. instructors are
retraining troops returned from Afghanistan to operate in the Caucasus. In
Azerbaijan, Tajikistan and Armenia they are training forces chosen because they
are operating under command of NATO, in whose headquarters officers of these
countries are already present. In Afghanistan, NATO is converting the war, turning
it into a series of “covert operations.”

The “North Atlantic Treaty Organization,” after its extension into Eastern Europe
(even into the territory of the former Soviet Union) and to Central Asia, is now
focusing on other regions.

In the Middle East, NATO, without appearing officially, infiltrated forces to lead a
covert military operation against Syria and is preparing for other operations, as
evidenced by the shift to Izmir, Turkey, of Landcom, the command of all the land
forces of the alliance.

In Africa, after waging a war to demolish Libya in 2011, NATO signed last May in
Addis Ababa an agreement that increases military assistance provided to the
African Union, in particular the education and training of brigades of the African
Standby Force, which also provides “planning and naval air transport.” It thus has a
determining voice in decisions on where and how to use them. Another tool is
the “anti-piracy” operation Ocean Shield in the Indian Ocean and the strategically
important Gulf of Aden.

Italian warships will participate in the operation, conducted in concert with the U.S.
Africa Command. Their task is to forge relationships with the armed forces of the
seacoast countries: for this purpose the guided missile destroyer Mimbelli made a

stopover at Dar Es Salaam in Tanzania from July 13 to 17.

In Latin America, NATO signed a “Security Agreement” in 2013 with Colombia,
which was already involved in military programs of the alliance; Colombia may soon
become a partner. In this context, the U.S. Southern Command in Colombia is
holding an exercise of South and North American Special Forces, with the
participation of 700 commandos.

In the Pacific Rimpac 2014 is now taking place. This is the word’s largest maritime
exercise, directed against China and Russia. Under U.S. command, 25,000 soldiers
from 22 countries with 55 ships and 200 warplanes are participating. NATO is
present through the naval forces of the U.S., Canada, Britain, France, the
Netherlands and Norway, plus Italy, Germany and Denmark as observers.
The “North Atlantic Treaty Organization” has been extended to the Pacific.

Translation from Italian: John Catalinotto


Order Directly From Global Research

originalThe US has embarked on a military adventure, “a long war”, which
threatens the future of humanity. US-NATO weapons of mass destruction are
portrayed as instruments of peace. Mini-nukes are said to be “harmless to the
surrounding civilian population”. Pre-emptive nuclear war is portrayed as
a “humanitarian undertaking”.

While one can conceptualize the loss of life and destruction resulting from present-
day wars including Iraq and Afghanistan, it is impossible to fully comprehend the
devastation which might result from a Third World War, using “new technologies”
and advanced weapons, until it occurs and becomes a reality. The international
community has endorsed nuclear war in the name of world peace. “Making the
world safer” is the justification for launching a military operation which could
potentially result in a nuclear holocaust.

Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War

By Michel Chossudovsky



Read more: The Art of War: NATO’s Global Offensive

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-art-of-war-natos-global-offensive/5393872

[Cidersomerset]

US State Dept offers ‘no comment’ on ballistic missiles fired by Kiev forces

Q6yX3w5m6oI

Published on 29 Jul 2014


In the past two days, Kiev’s forces have launched several short-range
ballistic missiles into areas in eastern Ukraine controlled by self-defense
forces, CNN reported, citing US government sources. However State
Department spokesperson Jen Psaki offered no comment on the issue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cold War Strategy: US hits Russian energy & finance sectors with more sanctions

vjcOifTNHPU

Published on 30 Jul 2014


The United States announced a new round of sanctions against Moscow, accusing
the Kremlin of supporting anti-Kiev militias in eastern Ukraine and threatening to
cripple the Russian economy. RT's correspondents have the details.

[MorningSong]

As this thread progresses, we are drawn to include mention of war and wars in other locations as we try to connect the dots... events which appear to be bringing us rapidly to the edge of the dreaded WW3. Do we need to start a "branching off" thread? Or do we, as Selene suggests in post no. 798, need to try to keep it all mixed together?

Nonetheless, this is in response to Cider's post no. 801:



US Military Dusts Off Decades-Old 'Readiness' Plans for Russia

ABC News
By LEE FERRAN July 25, 2014 5:13 PM


As American officials fire off diplomatic salvos at Russia in response to that nation’s purported actual artillery salvos into Ukraine, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said recently that among other actions, the U.S. military is dusting off decades-old plans, just in case.

“We’re looking inside our own readiness models to look at things that we haven’t had to look at for 20 years, frankly, about basing and lines of communication and sea lanes,” Gen. Martin Dempsey, America’s top military officer, said at the Aspen Security Forum Thursday evening. “What the military does when faced with these crises is – our job is preparedness, deterrence and readiness.”

In addition to its own plans, Dempsey said the U.S. military is having “conversations with our NATO allies about increasing their capability and readiness” and that there’s a “very active” ongoing process and debate about how best to provide support to Ukraine.

“I wouldn't misinterpret my presence here today sitting with you… We’re not sitting still,” Dempsey said.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-military-dusts-off-decades-old-readiness-plans-211332462--abc-news-topstories.html

[Operator]

...

So, that's for one thing.

The other thing is, when one looks at the pieces (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856351&viewfull=1#post856351) showing those holes, they look like someone has performed target practice at close range (might have been soldiers/militia on the ground beside fragments from the ground explosion when the plane hit the ground)... which led Some VT writer to think those pieces were "salted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858616&viewfull=1#post858616)."

Yep, you're right ... thanks for reminding me. ;)

I had some time now to think about this ... one remark and one question:

- The plane is 'expected' to be at 33000 feet. Black box data still has to confirm it WAS at that height.
- Why would they 'salt' evidence that doesn't match with any potential practical scenario?

Just to stimulate the brainstorm ... not to dispute anything brought forward previously.

[Billy]

continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

From July 18th, after the downing of MH17, Kiev’s BUK launchers were then moved away from the firing zone.

Unlike rebel fighters, the Ukrainian military is in possession of some 27 BUK missile systems capable of bringing down high-flying jets, and forensic satellite imagery places at least 3 of their launchers in the Donetsk region on the day of this tragedy. Yet, Washington and NATO will not inquire about the possibility that any of these system had targeted MH17.

Watch the official video here:



This is a definitive smoking gun: why did the Ukrainian Army move these short-range anti-aircraft SAM missile batteries into position on July 16-17th – to an interior region of East Ukraine where it’s known that the rebel resistance possess no air crafts whatsoever? Not surprisingly, both the US and Kiev have not answered that difficult question, perhaps for obvious reasons.

In addition, the Ukrainian Army’s radio location traffic near Donetsk peaked on the 16th and 17th, including a total of 9 separate radio location systems active. On the 18th and 19th of July, radio location traffic from these stations dropped sharply, down to 4 stations. If, as Washington/Kiev claims, rebels fired a BUK missile at MH17, then the rebel radar location signals would be clearly noted and verifiable on the day; only, they are not.

MH17-MAP
All Aircraft in the Vicinity

Between 5pm-6pm Moscow Time on July 17th, the following aircraft have been identified in the general vicinity of MH17 on its course heading to its fatal destination of Grabovo:

1. Boeing 772 – traveling southeast from Copenhagen to Singapore at 5:17pm
2. Boeing 778 – traveling southeast from Paris to Taipei at 5:24pm
3. Boeing 778 – traveling northwest from Delhi to Birmingham circa 5:20pm
4. Boeing 777 – Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 at 5:17pm
5. Ukrainian Fighter Jet (confirmation of model TBC) appears on radar, trailing MH17 at same altitude, est. 4km behind it at 5:21pm

Note: the pilots and passengers of Singapore Airlines Flight SIA351 were close enough to have visually observed, at high altitude, the demise of MH17.

At 5:20pm MH17 began to abruptly lose speed, eventually slowing to 124mph (200kmph). About this time, possibly an Su-25 Ukrainian fighter jet appears on ATC radar climbing in the direction of MH17, before trailing MH17 on the same flight path approximately 3-5km behind MH17, rapidly approaching the same flight level - only minutes before MH17 disappeared on radar. Note that a Ukrainian fighter would not have been visible on ATC radar before it broke the ATC long-range standby radar tracking ceiling of 5km in altitude. Civilian ATC radar would not be able to identify this Su-25 as military because no secondary detection system is mounted – typical for military aircraft. Over the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area.

Note also that the Su-25 can be armed with air-to-air R-60 missiles with a range of up to 5km-12km, but as 21WIRE has discovered, the Su-25 is not the only combat aircraft the Ukrainian Air Force has in its possession. On June 4, 2014, Janes Defense reported that Kiev have recently returned to service two other higher performance fighters, including the Su-27 ‘Flanker’ and the MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters. The altitude ceiling performance characteristics of all in-service Ukrainian fighters are as follows:

Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ fighter – Ceiling: 23,000 ft/ 7,000 m, or up to 32,800 ft/ 10,000 m (depending aircraft modifications)
Su-27 ‘Flanker’ fighter – Ceiling: 64,000 ft/ 19,000 m
MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ jet – Ceiling: 59,000 ft/ 18,000 m
Su-24 ‘Fencer’ fighter – Ceiling: 36,000 ft/ 11,000 m, or up to 57,400 ft/ 17,500 m (depending on variations of turbo intake)

Although the exact altitude position of MH17 is not yet know for every given second of its final minutes, it’s clear that a Ukrainian combat jet was in its shadow. Suffice to say, Kiev had a number of combat aircraft capable of engaging MH17 at within a wide range of altitudes, as well as firing air-to-air missile at short range (3-5km)either upwards, or downward angles using laser guided targeting which is standard on many of these models.

WATCH VIDEO:

Another Smoking Gun: Kiev government officials insisted on July 17th that, “No military aircraft were available in the region”. Based on available data detailed above, this appears to be a lie, indicating that a cover-up was taking place.

Again, it’s important to note here that at the moment when MH17 was allegedly was hit for the first time, at around 5:23pm Moscow time, the passenger jet was also within the range of several Ukrainian BUK batteries deployed close to Donetsk and as well as the Ukrainian Army’s BUK system positioned on the day just 8km south of Shakhterskoye, only a few miles from the eventual crash site at Grabovo.


IMAGE: A Ukrainian military Su-25 fighter jet carries air-to-air missiles, as do the Su-27 ‘Flanker’, and the MIG-29 Folcrum Fighter.

MH17′s Mysterious Left Turn

On passing glance, this seemingly minor, yet unexplained event doesn’t appear to be significant, but as is often the case, the devil is in the detail.

Again, was Kiev ATC also responsible for MH17′s final and fatal diversion from its course, or is there another reason for what appears to be an evasive maneuver?

One very real possibility for MH17 losing being diverted 14km to the left is that its GPS or navigation system was being jammed. US-NATO forces happened to be conducting an electronic warfare exercise in the Black Sea on July 17th (see ‘SEA BREEZE 2014′, below). In addition to this possibility, all Boeing jets (except Germany’s Lufthansa fleet) are equipped with a remote override that can be accessed by authorities in certain foreign countries, one being the United States. Although not publicly acknowledged until recently, Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot (BUAP) systems have been standard since the late 1990′s, apparently designed to take control of a commercial aircraft away from the pilot or flight crew, chiefly in the event of a terrorist incident.

Another possible explanation for this crucial event in the timeline is that MH17 was hit, or damaged, taking an emergency 180º left turn for 14km, before disappearing completely off of radar. This appears to be the case. On July 23rd, Anna-News published an interview with retired Russian Air Force colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) a frequent military commentator on Ukraine’s Civil War.

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

“When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and ordered the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing’s emergency landing. A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.”
21WIRE spoke to former Czech diplomat and political analyst, Vladimir Suchan, who puts Zhilin’s comments into context of what was happening militarily at the time of the crash. Suchan explains, “If MH17 was hit right over the frontline over Snezhnoye, this would have placed the timing and location of the intended downing and crash site to either the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, or much closer to the border between Russia and Ukraine where the “securing of the site” would allow lifting the strategic encirclement of the Ukrainian troops in the south and thus, on top of other objectives, saving Kiev’s armed forces from its first major military defeat.” (see ‘Military All-Out Offense’ section below)

If, indeed MH17 was struck by an air-to-air missile at that time, a distress call may have been sent to Kiev ATC, but as yet, Kiev officials may be reluctant to share, or release the entirety of its communications from July 17th.

At the time of this report being filed at 21WIRE, a second source to verify this testimony is not presently available. Zhilin’s account certainly makes sense when placed next to all ATC and satellite data released by Moscow. However, flight recorder information and data from MH17′s black boxes would certainly be able to corroborate this timeline of events, and one hopes that Great Britain’s predetermined political stance against Russia does not prevent Downing Street, or MI5 Intelligence Services from releasing the black box information in its entirety and more importantly, a full and unedited disclosure to the media. More than likely, the BBC will have first access to this release, and how the BBC report their findings will be very telling.

Above, is one possible map of MH17 final minutes, as calculated from one source of available public data, available here: http://nikolay-istomin.livejournal.com/3057934.html.

This account is also consistent with the location of key pieces of wreckage scattered over the wider crash site radius. It shows M17 turning back on itself, after being struck initially. If this was the final path, then it completely disapproves the US (US State Department) conspiracy theory that a rebel-controlled BUK missile hit the plane head-on from Snezhnoye (Snizhne). This U-turn then also helps explain why Kiev’s first “leaked conversation of the rebels” (see ‘Kiev’s Botch Social Media Audio’ below) tried to place the rebel’s BUK battery at a completely different location in Debaltzevo, a few kilometers northwest of the main crash site at Grabovo. However, that would not explain the U-turn, which they tried so much to conceal – for it points to the Ukrainian jet fighter.

As part of their PR damage-control exercise, Washington released this Google Map-style graphic on Tuesday July 22nd, illustrating its theory that the rebel missile battery was now located in Snezhnoye:

26604

Incredibly, Washington’s latest evidence/theory, depicted above, put their alleged rebel firing position in an entirely new spot – at Snezhnoye, and this now contradicts other ‘social media’ items being held-up by John Kerry and President Obama in their “mountain of evidence” (see ‘More Falsified and Sloppy ‘Evidence’ Supplied by SBU’, below).

The irony of this somehow escaped US State Dept. Deputy Spokesperson, Marie Harf during her globally televised ‘intelligence’ briefing on Tuesday (see ‘US Now in Full Retreat and Damage-Control Mode’, below).

Almost certainly, the US government already has a comprehensive communications, satellite and radar data set which could either corroborate, or disprove what Russia has released. The fact that Washington only has this Google graphic to offer to the public indicates that what it has… may not be what it wants.

Whistleblower: A Spanish Air Traffic Controller in Kiev

All evidence pointing to a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet in the same frame as MH17, also validates the testimony of ‘Carlos’, an ATC contractor in Kiev. ETN received information from an air traffic controller (Borispol Airport) in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17:


“This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board. The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from. Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.”

‘Carlos’ was reporting from the Kiev airport in real time on Twitter, of the downing of MH17 as the tragedy was taking place — during that very time and in the very next hour – only to disappear immediately, along with his Twitter account.

Again, real mounting evidence which points to an obvious cover-up by Kiev and its NATO partners.


This is a long and in depth article. Continue here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

Following on from this excellent and in depth article. I thought the following radio show broadcast by 21st century is also a very well researched and comprehensive overview and deconstruction of the MH17 'incident' with Patrick Henningsen and guests with some new infomation I had not heard before.

Episode #44 – SUNDAY WIRE: ‘Declassified: The MH17 Files’ with Patrick Henningsen, Dean Ryan and Basil Valentine.

This week’s edition of THE SUNDAY WIRE will be broadcasting LIVE from the Valley of the Sun, as host Patrick Henningsen presents a declassified stack of additional new material after compiling an independent investigation of MH17 - one of the seminal events of the 21st century – the airline disaster of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine, and what he’s discovered is shocking. Later on, to discuss US news and other lesser known scandals, we’re joined by LA-based commentator Dean Ryan for the Ryan Report, and in the third hour, Basil Valentine returns to the fold for the latest on Europe’s identity crisis, Israel’s massacre in Gaza, bumbling heads of state, and Westminster’s elite paedophile playground.

Strap yourselves in and lower the blast shield - this is your brave new world…

*WARNING THIS EPISODE CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND ADULT THEMES*

listen here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/27/episode-44-sunday-wire-declassified-the-mh17-files-with-patrick-henningsen-dean-ryan-and-basil-valentine/


peace.

[MorningSong]

Here's an older article I found at Cider's link at Global Research... just some more dots to put on the radar....


NATO Maneuvers with Georgia and Ukraine, Threaten War with Russia
By Alex Lantier
Global Research, April 03, 2014
World Socialist Web Site 3 April 2014

NATO is provacatively seeking to install its forces on Russia’s borders, moving to recruit Georgia and Ukraine’s unelected, pro-Western regime to the military alliance, a move that threatens a NATO-Russia war.

NATO and Georgian officials met yesterday in Brussels to plan talks on a Membership Action Plan (MAP) to admit Georgia into NATO as early as September....

.........................................

“At the meeting of foreign ministers in June, we will examine the progress being made by all four candidate countries on the path of rapprochement with NATO,” he said, referring to Georgia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. “We will present a report related to this issue, and a decision to forward will be adopted at the summit.”

This is part of an aggressive military escalation by NATO, which is planning troop deployments and military exercises all along Russia’s western borders—in Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Its moves to directly ally with Georgia, a country in the Caucasus that borders on Russia and attacked Russian forces in 2008, underscores the danger of a Russia-NATO war posed by this escalation.

The NATO meetings with Georgia followed comments by US Secretary of State John Kerry on Monday, signaling US interest in including both Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. He said, “The United States joins our allies in reaffirming that NATO’s door remains open to any European country in a position to undertake the commitments and obligations of membership, and that can contribute to security in the Euro-Atlantic area.”

He did not explicitly mention Georgia or Ukraine, as some NATO countries, like Germany and France, reportedly still oppose rapidly admitting Georgia—a position they took amid the 2008 Georgian war provoked by US-backed Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili’s attack on Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. However, both Berlin and Paris backed the installation of an unelected pro-Western government in Ukraine in a fascist-led putsch in Kiev this February.

The Russian Foreign Ministry replied to Kerry by pointedly warning Ukraine not to join NATO. It said that previous discussions of membership in NATO “led to freezing of Russian-Ukrainian political communications, to headaches in the relationship between NATO and Russia and, what is the most dangerous, to the deepening of the split of Ukrainian society, the majority of which doesn’t support the idea of Ukraine entering NATO.”

The statement added that future cooperation between Ukraine and Russia, including on economic issues, “will largely depend on the actions Ukraine takes in its foreign policy.”

By moving ahead towards a formal military alliance with Georgia, NATO effectively dismissed these Russian warnings. They are escalating pressure on Russia by signaling that each ethnic powder keg on Russia’s borders can be turned into a pretext for war. Were Georgia to join NATO, Washington and the major European Union (EU) powers would be committed under Article 5 of the NATO treaty to go to war with Russia if fighting broke out again between Russia and Georgia.

NATO’s offer of such guarantees to the regime in Kiev, where six ministries are controlled by violent anti-Russian Ukrainian fascists from the Svoboda Party or the Right Sector militia, would throw open the doors to countless provocations against Russia. Such provocations are all the more likely, in that the pro-Western Ukrainian regime is highly unstable, pledged to carry out deep and unpopular austerity measures against the Ukrainian working class.

Ukraine’s unelected Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk has boasted that his government consists of “political suiciders,” because its domestic policies will arouse such popular opposition.

The NATO moves directly raise the danger of world war, should Ukrainian or Georgian provocations trigger mutual escalation between Russia and the imperialist alliance. This underscores the devastating geo-strategic implications of the dissolution of the USSR, which has thrown the entire region open to reckless maneuvers by the Western imperialist powers and their fascistic local proxies in various ex-Soviet republics.

The 2008 Georgian war, as recounted by US diplomat Ronald Asmus in his book A Little War That Shook the World, gives a stark example of how a pro-Western regime can launch a military assault on Russia to deal with its own internal tensions. He recounts the Saakashvili regime’s response to the Russian declaration of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia—itself a response to the Western powers’ declaration of the independence of Kosovo from Serbia.

Saakashvili, Asmus writes, acted on “his conviction that he would never survive politically if he stood by and did nothing. That still did not mean it was a wise choice. President Saakashvili began a war his allies had warned him not to start, a war they would not support, and a war that he could not win.”

According to Asmus, Saakashvili modeled his plans on offensives like Operation Storm, the 1995 Croatian military offensive that carried out the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia.

Saakashvili, in fact, did enjoy the close support of Western governments and political operatives, however. “A large part of what was referred to as the ‘mafia’—a loose collection of American and European think tanks, pro-democracy NGOs, journalists, and other veterans of the [NATO] enlargement debate of the 1990s—now found itself gathering at conferences and workshops in Tbilisi [the Georgian capital] and neighboring capitals, debating how the West should respond,” Asmus notes.

This Western “mafia” was well aware of Saakashvili’s plan for military aggression against Russian peacekeepers and regularly discussed them with Georgian officials. “Many of us referred to it as the ‘land grab’ scenario. Such conversations usually took place in private settings—at Saakashvili’s home, in his chancellery late at night, or during one of Georgia’s favorite pastimes: drinking. Maps were brought out or drawn on napkins as Georgian officials thought out loud about what-they-would-do-if scenarios,” Asmus writes.

Ultimately, the drunken speculation of Saakashvili and his contacts in the Western “mafia” about how to best carry out ethnic cleansing and military aggression led to a poorly coordinated offensive and a predictable Georgian defeat at the hands of Russia. The NATO powers declined to get involved in a conflict with Russia that could rapidly escalate into nuclear war.

The moves to include the Kiev regime and Georgia in NATO are designed to change this situation, by presenting Russia with a situation where the NATO powers are diplomatically compelled to intervene on the side of their right-wing proxies.

They are creating a situation where the desperate regime of “political suiciders” in Kiev, acting on its own drunken plans worked out with the Western mafia, might similarly launch military provocations against Russia in an attempt to extricate itself from its internal crises, triggering a military escalation leading to global war.




http://www.globalresearch.ca/nato-maneuvers-with-georgia-and-ukraine-threaten-war-with-russia/5376482

[MorningSong]

Wow! Impressive letter to Obama from Senior U.S. Intelligence Officers:


Senior U.S. Intelligence Officers: Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

Preface: With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, former high-level U.S. intelligence veterans released a statement today urging President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the exaggeration and rush to judgment. (The whole post is a must-read; but we at Washington’s Blog have added bolding for emphasis.)

Signatory Bill Binney – the former senior technical director at the NSA, and a man who battled the Soviet Union for decades – tells Washington’s Blog:

In my analytic efforts to predict intentions and capabilities down through the years, I always made sure that I had multi-factors verifying what I was asserting. So far, I don’t see that discipline here in this administration or the IC [i.e. the United States intelligence community].

Posted with permission of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian intensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

.....................

If You’ve Got the Goods…

If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 17, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for a ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

The courtesy of a reply is requested.

Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

Do take the time to read the whole (long) letter at the link:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-mh17-crash-us-veteran-intelligence-officers-slam-the-flimsy-intelligence-against-russia/5393959

[Operator]

Well, I think the video is confusing too. But the idea is food for thought.
In fact it would make sense that if a bomb was used the (extensive?) preparations were done
on another similar plane in another location. Especially if you want to control and conceal it.
Like special placed explosives that leave minimal trace and make the plane disintegrate in
mid-air.

In the MH370 thread I already pointed out once that what's missing is not a flight but a plane.
That's in fact a huge difference and understanding that maybe key to understanding/solving
cases like this. The numbers with prefix 9M- numbers are more or less the same as car license
plates and are designated to one physical plane.

A physical plane is used to perform a flight identified by a flight number. Flight numbers are
reused in a frequent cycle like days or weeks. Each flight with the same number could be
performed by different physical planes.

I hope this helps ... maybe some more explanation later.

[Hervé]

[...]

Following on from this excellent and in depth article. I thought the following radio show broadcast by 21st century is also a very well researched and comprehensive overview and deconstruction of the MH17 'incident' with Patrick Henningsen and guests with some new infomation I had not heard before.

Episode #44 – SUNDAY WIRE: ‘Declassified: The MH17 Files’ with Patrick Henningsen, Dean Ryan and Basil Valentine.

This week’s edition of THE SUNDAY WIRE will be broadcasting LIVE from the Valley of the Sun, as host Patrick Henningsen presents a declassified stack of additional new material after compiling an independent investigation of MH17 - one of the seminal events of the 21st century – the airline disaster of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine, and what he’s discovered is shocking. Later on, to discuss US news and other lesser known scandals, we’re joined by LA-based commentator Dean Ryan for the Ryan Report, and in the third hour, Basil Valentine returns to the fold for the latest on Europe’s identity crisis, Israel’s massacre in Gaza, bumbling heads of state, and Westminster’s elite paedophile playground.

Strap yourselves in and lower the blast shield - this is your brave new world…

*WARNING THIS EPISODE CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND ADULT THEMES*

listen here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/27/episode-44-sunday-wire-declassified-the-mh17-files-with-patrick-henningsen-dean-ryan-and-basil-valentine/


peace.

Listening... impressive!

Updated article at: http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[EC1000]

Thanks for that. I'm into numerology as well. Funny I have always gravitated towards the number 7, but that’s probably because my b-day is 7/14/70. Incidentally, I learned a few years ago that 7/14 was a lucky b-day because it was also Osiris' b-day. I wonder if that’s why its bastille day in France. Anyway, I am derailing your thread-please forgive me.

Back to the video-what happened of note on 7/20? That wasn't they day the plane was shot down was it? (I haven’t had my coffee yet)




Numerology of interest:

MH 370 --> 3*7 = 7*7*7
Boeing 777
Disappeared March 7, 2014 (UTC time) --> 3*7 = 7*7*7 and 2+0+1+4 = 7

MH 17 --> 1*7 = 7
Boeing 777
Shot down on July 17, 2014 --> July = 7, 1*7 = 7, 2+0+1+4 = 7

A web search turned up this after posting the above content:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/07/malaysia-flight-17-christine-legarde-occult-message-connection-video-2994400.html

QYmViPTndxw
This video was streamed live on January 15, 2014: January = 1 --> 1+1+5 = 7, 2+0+1+4 = 7

OK, that concludes today's numerology fix...

[jackovesk]

U.S. is militarizing Ukraine to invade Russia. Sergei Glazyev

Wednesday, July 30, 2014


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWT5HM_NMlI&feature=player_embedded

[Roisin]

What about the war of semantics? In my view, regardless that the US and Russia are engaged in this current battle, but only by proxy, as politicians, political scientists and talking heads in the media will relentlessly remind us on a daily basis, as far as I'm concerned, the US and Russia are at war with each other now. If each opposing party is making major contributions in any way, shape or form in their support of a regional civil war taking place anywhere, essentially, those major powers who are engaged in such endeavors are themselves at war with each other too at the same time just by doing that. Granted we may not be sending our troops in directly to fight with those on the side of the battle we are supporting, to say that we're not at war with Russia and have not been at war with that country regardless of direct engagement in proxy wars where the West is supporting one side and Russia the other... that continue to be fought at any given time all over the planet, is only a matter of fancy mumbo-jumbo politicized semantics and nothing more.

[Cidersomerset]

The Malaysian Airline MH17 Crash: Sixteen Central Issues Which Cannot be Ignored

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:11 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-2052-587x391.jpg


‘In establishing who was behind the shooting down of MH17, there are a number of
central issues as well as factual evidence which cannot be overlooked:’


1. Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower
altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower upon its entry into Ukraine airspace.
(Malaysian Airlines MH17 Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

2. The flight path was changed. We still don’t know who ordered it, but we know it
was not Eurocontrol:


MH17 was diverted from the normal South Easterly route over the sea of Azov to a
path over the Donetsk. Oblast. (The Flight Path of MH17 Was Changed. July 17
Plane Route was over the Ukraine Warzone)

According to Malaysian Airlines “The usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was
earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The
International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft
was traversing was not subject to restrictions.”

…

The regular flight path of MH17 (and other international flights) over a period of ten
days prior to July 17th ( day of the disaster), crossing Eastern Ukraine in a
Southeasterly direction is across the Sea of Azov (click on the article link below to
see the map). While the audio records of the MH17 flight have been confiscated by
the Kiev government, the order to change the flight path did not come from
Eurocontrol. Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian
authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? (Malaysian Airlines MH17
Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

3. The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic
controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as
well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By
Insinuation”, Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot
Down Boeing MH#17

The Spanish air traffic controller documented the event on Twitter as it happened.
He claimed it was not an accident, that the Ukrainian authorities shot down MH17
and were trying to “make it look like an attack by pro-Russians” . His Twitter
account was closed down shortly after the tragedy. Although his account has yet to
be fully corroborated, some of his claims have been confirmed by Malaysian Airlines
and the Russian authorities.

There have been some reports to the effect the Spanish Air controller is fake and
that the twitter message were sent out of London. Upon further investigation, the
Spanish Air Controller conducted several media interviews in the last 2-3 months,
see his interview with RT (Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine
Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17)

4. Russia has made available public radar and satellite imagery as evidence. Its
images suggest the following:


a) Kiev’s regime deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the
area where flight MH17 crashed.

b) An Ukrainian warplane SU-25 trailing flight MH17

c) the report pointed to the possibility of an air-to-air attack on MH17

d) the report also pointed to inconsistencies pertaining to the reports of the
Ukrainian air traffic control

The Russian authorities did not come to any conclusion regarding who was to blame
for shooting down the plane. (MH17 Show & Tell: It’s the West’s Turn – Russian
Satellites and Radars Contradict West’s Baseless Claims)

5. The U.S., despite its global spying apparatus, has not shown any radar or
satellite imagery to back its claim that Russia and the Eastern-Ukrainian opposition
are responsible for the downing of MH17. The evidence it has presented so far is
weak and based on pro-Kiev documents consisting of YouTube videos and various
social media – “all of which are admittedly unverifiable and some of which is
veritably fabricated.”:


Is US intelligence simply reading blogs? Or are the blogs somehow a clearinghouse
of US intelligence? Or are the blogs fabrications by US intelligence in an attempt to
frame Russia? One in particular, “Ukraine at War,” is a definitive collection of
fabrications, biased propaganda, and dubious claims that appear to precede “US
intelligence” claims. (Assigning Blame to East Ukraine Rebels: US Appeals to “Law
of the Jungle” in MH17 Case)

6. “The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of
MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area”:


The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data
captured by the satellite.(How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

7. A U.S. intelligence source claimed the “U.S. intelligence agencies do have
detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful
missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian
government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms”. These images
could confirm the evidence presented by Russia to the effect that Kiev’s regime
deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the area where flight
MH17 crashed. (Fact number 4, Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show
Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17)

8. Russia called for an expert independent investigation:


President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a
fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance
of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an
independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with
anything to hide. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

9. The U.S. claimed, without evidence, but “with confidence” that Russia was involved:


[On July 20, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian
separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it
was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty
clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of
separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not
have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it
obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.” (Ibid.)

10. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's statement above regarding Russian
involvement is contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and numerous eye
witnesses on the ground. (Ibid.)

11. US intelligence officials said there is no evidence of the Russian government’s
involvement, also contradicting John Kerry's statement above. (US Intelligence on
Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. “US Satellite Photos do not Support
Obama’s Lies”, The author refers to this news item by the Associated Press: US
INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17)

12. A few hours after the crash, Kiev authorities presented a video in which the
opposition admitted shooting down the plane. Experts who studied the video
concluded that it was a fabrication:


“The tape’s second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single
audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog
was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very
indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was
assembled from various episodes.” (Ibid.)

The encoding of the video file shows it was created on July 16, the day before the
plane was shot down. This information remains to be confirmed, but if it is
accurate, it would mean that the Ukrainian authorities shot the plane down and
fabricated evidence to frame the opposition (Did Ukraine Fabricate Evidence to
Frame Russia for MH17 Shoot Down?, How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By
Insinuation”)

13. John Kerry “referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing
an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with 'a missing
missile or so.'” The video was “posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian
Interior Minister.”According to numerous sources the video was “taken in or near
Krasnoarmeisk”, a town under Kiev's control since May and located “ 120
kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian
Boeing 777 crashed”:


At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also
suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on
researching that one for you. (Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian
Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked)

14. Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema said the Ukrainian opposition did
not possess a Buk missile system:


“Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia
Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by the Buk missile system...Ukrainian
Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on
Friday: 'After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the
president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and
S-300... These weapons were not seized'” (Militias Do Not Have Ukrainian Buk
Missile System — Ukraine General Prosecutor)

15. The MH17 incident is used to wage economic war against Russia. Sanctions
imposed in the wake of the event, without any evidence of Russian implication, are
used to weaken the ruble and destabilize the Russian Monetary system. (The
Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crash: Financial Warfare --against Russia, Multibillion
Dollar Bonanza for Wall Street)

16. In 1962, the U.S. Joint Chief of Staff planned Operation Northwoods, a
secret "false flag operation" (declassified) in which a civilian airliner was to be shot
down and blamed on the Cuban government. The objective was to manufacture a
pretext to wage war on Cuba. (The Implementation of Operations Northwoods was
turned down by President John F. Kennedy).


The downing of MH17 and the reaction of the US authorities and media bear strong
similarities with the scenario depicted in Operation Northwoods, according to author
R. Teichmann:


"Among other things the document proposed the following. I [Teichman] have
inserted in bold (in parenthesis) my comments to illustrate why the MH-17 incident
could be a re-run of the proposed Operation Northwoods:

It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban
aircraft (a BuK Anti-Aircraft missile system supplied by Russia to the ‘Separatists”
in eastern Ukraine) has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner (Malaysian
Airlines MH-17) en route from the United States (Amsterdam, Schipol airport) to
Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela (Kuala Lumpur) .

It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban
MIGs (Eastern Ukraine ‘Separatists’) have destroyed a USAF aircraft (Malaysian
passenger aircraft) over international waters (their territory) in an unprovoked
attack. (Framing Russia? Fabricating a Pretext to Wage War: Flight MH-17
and “Operation Northwoods”)


Read more: The Malaysian Airline MH17 Crash: Sixteen Central Issues Which Cannot be Ignored


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-malaysian-airline-mh17-crash-sixteen-central-issues-which-cannot-be-ignored/5393296

[Cidersomerset]

Coordinated Sanctions Aim at Russia’s Ability to Tap Its Oil Reserves

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:14 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-721-587x330.jpg



THE NEW YORK TIMES.......


‘The United States and Europe kicked off a joint effort on Tuesday intended to curb Russia’s
long-term ability to develop new oil resources, taking aim at the Kremlin’s premier source of
wealth and power in retaliation for its intervention in Ukraine.

In announcing coordinated sanctions, American and European leaders went beyond previous
moves against banking and defense industries in an effort to curtail Russia’s access to Western
technology as it seeks to tap new Arctic, deep sea and shale oil reserves. The goal was not
to inhibit current oil production but to cloud Russia’s energy future.’

The new strategy took direct aim at the economic foundation of Russia, which holds the
largest combined oil and gas reserves in the world.


The growth of the oil industry in the last two decades has powered Russia’s economic and
geopolitical resurgence since the collapse of the Soviet Union and enriched allies of President
Vladimir V. Putin. Russia pumps about 10.5 million barrels of oil a day, making it among
the largest producers.


“The biggest edge that Western energy companies still have is their technological edge — that’s
why these sanctions have the potential to have significant impact,” said Michael A. Levi, an
energy expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. “Chinese companies can’t step in and provide
shale technology where U.S. companies are blocked. They can provide capital; they can provide
people. They can’t fill in on the technology front.”

The technology cutoff could be important because Russia is only now at the early stages of
developing new Arctic, deep sea and shale resources. Most of its current production comes from
depleted Siberian deposits that will eventually run out. And several Western oil companies have
been working with Russia to expand their resources.

ExxonMobil has a joint venture with Rosneft, the state-owned oil giant, to develop Arctic oil, and
is scheduled to start drilling in the Kara Sea within weeks. BP, which owns 19.75 percent of Rosneft,
just signed a joint venture with the Russian firm in May to search for shale oil in the Volga-Urals region.

Even though BP announced higher quarterly profits on Tuesday, its stock was hammered by the
sanctions news, falling 3 percent. BP warned investors bluntly that further sanctions “could adversely
impact our business and strategic objectives in Russia.”




Read more: Coordinated Sanctions Aim at Russia’s Ability to Tap Its Oil Reserves


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/world/europe/european-sanctions-russia.html?_r=2


==============================================================


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-818-587x364.jpg


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-917-587x338.jpg

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[Cidersomerset]

Global Elite Agitating for War Against Russia

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:22 By david-icke


http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/russia-us-missile.jpg


‘Victoria Nuland — who acted as the front person for the State Department’s coup in
Kiev — bluntly expressed the opinion of the United States toward the European Union
back in February.

Nuland employed a choice expletive when she dismissed the glacial movement of EU
apparatchiks and their apparent political paralysis in response to the State Department’s
covert effort to install a cooperative regime in Ukraine.

The MH17 downing was engineered to move the EU and public consensus in the
direction of open confrontation with Russia. The EU does not want to appear indifferent
and lackadaisical to the exploitatively propagandized tragedy, so it will lend its support
for a new round of sanctions and, most importantly, the neocon introduced Senate bill
2277, the so-called “Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014” more appropriately
dubbed the World War III bill.’

Read more: Global Elite Agitating for War Against Russia


Congress and establishment media blame Russia for MH17 downing without evidence


http://www.prisonplanet.com/global-elite-agitating-for-war-against-russia.html


======================================================



Russia preparing to develop Gaza gas field

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/RTR8PUM.jpg


‘In a significant political and economic development, Palestinian President Mahmoud
Abbas met Jan. 23 with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The meeting came as a
prerequisite to officially sign an investment agreement aiming to develop the Gaza
offshore gas field in the Mediterranean Sea. It is only logical to assume that this step
will raise the ire of Israel. The latter does not appreciate the role Russia plays in the
region, especially since Israel has never come to an agreement with Russia.’

Read more: Russia preparing to develop Gaza gas field

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2014/01/russia-palestine-offshore-gas-field-gaza.html#

[Cidersomerset]

Church & playground shelled in Eastern Ukraine - aftermath footage

dyfuMubvX1w

Published on 30 Jul 2014


Wooden church and a nearby playground got under shelling in Gorlovka on July 29.
A local woman was heavily injured as the shell also hit the bus station in front of the
church. Gorlovka has witnessed fire intensification for the past days as Ukrainian army
ratchets up pressure at Donetsk People’s Republic militia who are in control of the area.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Sanctions won't hit Russia as badly as West wants, it's show of strength by EU/US'

SGr8CTQyyyA

Published on 30 Jul 2014


EU leaders have backed the US sanctions. They also agreed to impose their own measures
on Russia, which could potentially hurt the country's financial and energy sectors. For more
on this, Stuart Elliott, the Senior Managing Editor at Europe & Africa Oil News, joins RT.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.safetysupplywarehouse.com/v/vspfiles/photos/10329-2.jpg




Kiev still preventing investigators from reaching crash site.........Why aren't Obama
Cameron and the rest shouting at Kiev. They would soon be shouting at Putin
if the rebels were stopping the investigators......



http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

30 July 2014 Last updated at 17:01 Share this

Ukraine conflict: Army claims strategic town in Donetsk

cgQbPnFJk14

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28559482

[Roisin]

A question: In terms of a one world gov't, which one is the lesser evil? One that's run by the West or one that's run by Russia and China? Of course, each one, the West and the East, seek world domination in terms of their own "one world gov't".... which side would you prefer to be the victor?

[Operator]

A question: In terms of a one world gov't, which one is the lesser evil? One that's run by the West or one that's run by Russia and China? Of course, each one, the West and the East, seek world domination in terms of their own "one world gov't".... which side would you prefer to be the victor?

Main question is: are there sides or is it all one and the same ?

I referred to this in this (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858900&viewfull=1#post858900) post:



Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?


Perestroika deception ... the book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Perestroika-Deception-Memoranda-Intelligence/dp/189979803X) or more on what (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoliy_Golitsyn) it is about.

Strangely enough Rick Wiles from TruNews has spent a few shows on this topic a few weeks before July 17th:

- http://www.trunews.com/tuesday-june-24-2014-j-r-nyquist/
- http://www.trunews.com/wednesday-june-25-2014-perestroika-deception-pt-2/
- http://www.trunews.com/friday-july-4-2014-perestroika-deception-pt-3/

Please use as a side note only. It's actually not the original topic of this thread.

:offtopic:

[linksplatinum]

(Check one) ______ model number ________ one specific plane
Actually neither one of these. 9M-MRC, 9M-MRD, and 9M-MRO are all registration numbers

MH370 is the flight that "disappeared" earlier this year. MH370 was supposed to have been an MR-____ and it:
Supposedly 9M-MRO was what was claimed as MH-370, but I am thinking that the registration number was 9M-MRD, and was probably the true registration number of MH-370 all along, or possibly there was a change in decals @ the Diego Garcia secret base, or both decals of these planes were changed to create a lot of confusion

(check one) ____was ___wasn't _____is still unknown.
answer above

MH17 was supposed to have been an MR-____.
9M-MRD or so we've been told BUT it could have been 9M-MRO

Photos (passenger and Reuter's Israeli) of the actual plane that left Amsterdam show that it was an MR-_____.
9M-MRC which was actually in Kuala Lumpur on July 17th unless the flight logs have been tampered with?

Photos of the crashed plane show that the plane was an MR-_____, though it was painted to appear like an MR-______.
9M-MRD and were shown as such

And what about the plane stored in Tel Aviv, where does that fit in?:
Not quite sure about this plane

It does, because __________________________________________________ __.

It doesn't, because___________________________________________ ________.

It is unknown_so far maybe something will surface on it later__________

It was used to add to the confusion___of course but there are always breadcrumbs with these false flags that eventually get figured out, so I would think that now that the aircraft parts serial numbers would be the tell all _______

Flight logs show that the MR-_9M-MRC___________ was actually in _Kuala Lumpur, based on the flight logs____________, so couldn't have been in__Amsterdam, unless some jackass is cooking the log books which I wouldn't rule that out completely yet___________.

Since a lot of this is still under investigation, we may see newer leads just like this one too to stir up more spin or maybe there is some truth to it?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/#LROUzcBB4Wd05RH3.99


NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.
July 28th, 2014

BY JOHN WARD
ukrainejetsSurface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

This is what a German pilot-cum-air technology expert Peter Haisenko has just published on the subject of the MH17 disaster (my emphases):

‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight
recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this?
May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of
Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking.
Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit
shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,
these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit
holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.
Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double
aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from
inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open
rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is
exclusively in the cockpit area….

Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a
Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air
traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct
contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted
out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of
splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit
of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on
the same side….’
Very compelling stuff, is it not?

Now read this (also German) article by defence expert Bernd Biederman, who offers equally sound reasons why the
shooting down could NOT have been from a surface to air missile:

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit
the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the
“enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a
40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In
the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after
the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had
come in contact with combustible materials.

Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at
the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’

Articles are beginning to appear across the Web to the effect that Angela Merkel is disturbed by (and growing tired of) the incessant US propaganda being emitted in favour of its energy agenda….and so we must perhaps in turn view these articles in the light of her alleged new agenda concerning the creation of an alternative bloc to that of America. (More on this here in the near future).

But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

[Operator]

I found this on Project Camelot's website ...

LETTER FROM DUTCH CITIZEN RE BODIES FROM FLT MH17 (http://projectcamelotportal.com/blog/31-kerrys-blog/2204-letter-from-dutch-citizen-re-bodies-from-flt-mh17)

I have to say I had a similar 'feeling' a couple of days ago. Not so much that I thought it was related to MH370 or so.

But I got a vision about how people are deceived ... Sure the whole thing with coffins, one coffin per car,
the motorcade etc. looked very serene and finally a feeling of some dignity. But maybe it was a bit too
much of what people WANTED to see (again, it was a hunch ... not an opinion).

I was triggered by thoughts like:
- the bodies originated from the Netherlands and now they are back (with no deeper meaning), nobody saw them in between.
- nobody saw what was in the body bags, train, coffins etc.
- they found body 'parts' ... how come there is a specific number of coffins?
- why a military base in Hilversum ?

I even looked up what's on the military base in Hilversum ... it's a medical facility, so that makes sense.

At first I was curious if it was related to the Marechaussee too ... because you know what, that's who
they've sent to the crash site and guess again who the guardians are on Schiphol ...

http://static3.volkskrant.nl/static/photo/2012/17/0/0/20120309111318/media_xl_1142145.jpg

http://www.taxipro.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/marechausseschipholfouilleren-480x319.jpg

http://www.marechausseecontact.nl/images/schiphol_-_stoere_beroepen.jpg

I have to admit, it's only part of all their tasks and they are very good at what they do. But could there be
a connection to a small faction inside that organization that helps keep things under wraps?
Unfortunately we cannot exclude any possibility ...

Since the new search party arrived at the crash site it is no longer accessible. Because of fights in the vicinity
but apparently now also because of mines. There can be 2 different reasons however:

- either someone does not want to allow more investigations done because the truth might be discovered or
- someone is afraid that the crash site is further 'salted' to prove a 'desired' outcome

And in the meantime the whole situation is abused for political means without conclusive data from
the flight- and voice recorders (data is already days available now).

[Cidersomerset]

What happens when Russians are killed on the border ?


'I’m very scared, crying': Ukrainian conflict scrapes into Russian border

Cbnw31MVmv8


Published on 30 Jul 2014


The Ukrainian conflict is now very close to the Russian border. A number of times
shells have crossed the frontier, already resulting in one death. International
monitors, urged by Moscow to look into the situation, have now arrived in the area.
RT's Roman Kosarev reports from a Russian village where people have been forced
to run and hide from hostilities.

[Hervé]

Dutch PM tells Ukraine to stop fighting near MH17 crash site (http://rt.com/news/176408-mh17-clashes-inspectors-ukraine/)

Published time: July 29, 2014 12:47
Edited time: July 29, 2014 17:27
Get short URL (http://rt.com/news/176408-mh17-clashes-inspectors-ukraine/)


http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2b/11/80/00/plane.si.jpg
Investigators work at a the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), some 80km east of Donetsk (AFP Photo / Bulent Kiic)



The Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, has called Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to ask government forces to stop fighting around the Malaysia Airlines crash site after experts were unable to get there for a third day running.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES (http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/)

"The prime minister this morning called the Ukrainian president with a request to halt hostilities around the crash site," Jean Fransman, a spokesman for the Dutch PM, told AFP. "Rutte expressed his concern about the fact it appeared the investigators may today yet again not reach the site.”

The Dutch Ministry for Security and Justice confirmed that the team of forensic experts and police officers from the Netherlands and Australia had not even attempted to try and reach the place where the Boeing 777 was downed due to heavy fighting in the vicinity. This is the third day they have been prevented from reaching the site due to the conflict.

The Australian Federal Police again deemed the situation too risky without firm commitments from opposing Ukrainian and anti-government forces which would guarantee the investigators’ safe passage to the area.

Kiev says rocket blast downed MH17, Dutch probe says info ‘premature’ (http://rt.com/news/176136-mh17-crash-rocket-ukraine/)

Special envoy Angus Houston said there was a lot of fighting just south of the MH17 crash site and the situation remained “very fluid, very dynamic.”

“You just have to accept the fact that you don’t go into a fast-moving conflict with a mission like ours,” The Australian newspaper reported him as saying.

Monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe have been trying to negotiate the investigators’ passage to the crash site from the city, which is encircled by Ukrainian troops, but the message to let them pass has not been heeded by Ukraine government forces.

Heavy fighting in E. Ukraine prevents experts from visiting MH17 crash site (http://rt.com/news/175976-ukraine-mh17-malaysia-fighting/)

Anti-government forces have repeatedly tried to escort the unarmed investigators in a convoy to the crash site, but each time have found the situation too risky to push on.

Australian PM Tony Abbott, who met with his Cabinet’s National Security Committee in Canberra on Tuesday, said it was a “confused situation on the ground.’’

“There is fighting and it’s not just the anti-government forces, it’s the Ukrainian government as well,’’ Abbott said.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in a telephone conversation with US State Secretary John Kerry on Tuesday urged Washington to influence Kiev to achieve a prompt ceasefire and to start negotiations with southeast Ukraine.

Lavrov stressed the need to return to the accord achieved at Geneva on July 17, including an end to the use of force and to promptly start an open and accountable process of constitutional reform involving all regions of Ukraine.

The two diplomats also agreed to implement the UNSC resolution which demands the provision of an international and independent investigation into the causes of the MH17 disaster and a ceasefire in the region surrounding the crash site.

Putin: West should demand Kiev obey ceasefire during plane crash probe (http://rt.com/news/174652-ukraine-plane-crash-ceasefire/)

Poroshenko ordered a ceasefire within a radius of 40 kilometers of the crash; however, this was broken a week ago, when the Ukrainian Air Force carried out a missile strike 30 kilometers (http://rt.com/news/174616-ukraine-airstrike-crash-site/) from the MH17 crash site.

The Ukrainian government hopes to be allowed to visit the Malaysian Airlines crash site in the next few days or hours, said the acting vice Prime Minister, Vladimir Groisman, who is leading a Ukrainian state commission to find out the causes of the plane crash.

“We have reason to believe that there are some bodies remaining, where the plane came down," he told journalists on Tuesday. He also added that a plan had been drawn-up, which would see the armed forces enter the territory where the MH17 plane was downed. “I hope in the next few hours or days there will be positive results,” Groisman said.

Intl. teams find ‘no violations’ by Russia along Ukrainian border (http://rt.com/news/175944-russia-ukraine-border-inspection/)

All efforts to visit the wreckage will be suspended while negotiations continue to secure safe access to the site.

“The mission will again attempt to enter the crash site when suitable arrangements are in place to provide an appropriately secure area for officers to begin the search for the remains and belongings of victims,” the investigation team added, AFP reported.

There is clear frustration on behalf of the Australians and Dutch, who are desperate to get to the site as soon as possible.

Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, speaking before holding more talks with the Ukrainian government in Kiev, said investigators remained undeterred and would continue to seek access to the site until the job of retrieving bodies and carrying out a thorough investigation was completed.

“We are assessing the situation, day by day, hour by hour, and won’t take any unacceptable risks,” she added.

Air Chief Marshal Houston added: “As soon as a window of opportunity opens we are going to go in there and get out quickly again, hopefully in a matter of two to three weeks.’’

There are still human remains and important forensic information to be retrieved from the area where the Boeing 777 was brought down 11 days ago with the loss of 298 people. 282 bodies have already been found, while on Monday, the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic stated that they are still looking for 16 bodies, which have not been recovered following the accident.

[Hervé]

Australia's Priority to Access MH17 Crash Site, Not Sanctions Against Russia – Abbott (http://en.ria.ru/news/20140730/191475840/Australias-Priority-to-Access-MH17-Crash-Site-Not-Sanctions.html)

Topic: Malaysia Airlines Boeing Crashes in Ukraine (http://en.ria.ru/trend/malaysia_airlines_boeing_crashes_in_ukraine_170714/)

13:47 30/07/2014


http://en.ria.ru/images/19124/72/191247296.jpg (http://en.ria.ru/news/20140730/191475840/Australias-Priority-to-Access-MH17-Crash-Site-Not-Sanctions.html)
Crash site of Malaysian Boeing 777 in Ukraine© RIA Novosti. Andrei Stenin (http://en.rian.ru/)


MOSCOW, July 30 (RIA Novosti) – Australia’s number one priority is getting access to the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash site (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140729/191447923.html) in eastern Ukraine, rather than imposing further sanctions on Russia, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said Wednesday as quoted by The Star.

"I am not saying that we might not, at some point in the future, move further," Abbott said. "But at the moment our focus is not on sanctions, our focus is on bringing home our dead as quickly as we humanly can."

Australia has not stopped attempting to gain access to the Boeing crash site, the prime minister stressed.

"If it doesn't happen today we will try again tomorrow, if it doesn't happen tomorrow we will try again the next day," Abbott said.

On Tuesday, a group consisting of Dutch and Australian specialists for the third time failed to reach the MH17 crash site near the city of Torez due to ongoing fighting in the region. Tony Abbot expressed concern over the armed conflict around the crash site, adding that “it’s not just the separatists, it’s the Ukrainian government as well.”

A total of 298 people, including 193 Dutch citizens and 27 Australians, died on July 17 as a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed in Donetsk Region of Ukraine.

Kiev authorities and independence supporters have been trading blame for the downing of the plane, with independence supporters insisting they lacked the equipment to shoot down a target flying at an altitude of nearly 33,000 feet.

[...]

Full article: http://en.ria.ru/news/20140730/191475840/Australias-Priority-to-Access-MH17-Crash-Site-Not-Sanctions.html

Related News


http://en.ria.ru/i/fra/img/bul.gifLavrov Says MH17 Crash Investigation Raises Suspicion (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140728/191397950/Lavrov-Says-MH17-Crash-Investigation-Raises-Suspicion.html)
http://en.ria.ru/i/fra/img/bul.gifRussia's UN Envoy Slams Ukraine Military Action Near MH17 Crash Site (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140728/191412233/Russias-UN-Envoy-Slams-Ukraine-Military-Action-Near-MH17-Crash.html)
http://en.ria.ru/i/fra/img/bul.gifRussia Ready to Discuss Police Mission to MH17 Crash Site in Eastern Ukraine (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140728/191408334/Russia-Ready-to-Discuss-Police-Mission-to-MH17-Crash-Site-in.html)
http://en.ria.ru/i/fra/img/bul.gifDutch Prime Minister Urges Kiev to Stop Fighting Near MH17 Crash Site (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140729/191441206/Dutch-Prime-Minister-Urges-Kiev-to-Stop-Fighting-Near-MH17-Crash.html)
http://en.ria.ru/i/fra/img/bul.gifMH17 Downing in Eastern Ukraine May Amount to War Crime - UN (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140728/191407532/MH17-Downing-in-Eastern-Ukraine-May-Amount-to-War-Crime---UN.html)

[Hervé]

MH-17: Beware of the «Chameleon» (http://www.strategic-culture.org/pview/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html)

21.07.2014 | 00:00
Wayne MADSEN
Strategic-Culture.org (http://www.strategic-culture.org/)

The 10-day NATO exercise code named «BREEZE 2014» has ended in Black Sea. The exercise, which included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), coincided with the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine, some 40 miles from the Russian border. NATO ships and aircraft had the Donetsk and Luhansk regions under total radar and electronic surveillance.

MH-17 was shot down over a region where Russian-speaking separatist forces have been battling against the alliance of the Ukrainian armed forces and a private mercenary force answerable to a Ukrainian-Jewish billionaire oligarch.

The U.S. Army has revealed that the 10-day exercise involved «commercial traffic monitoring». Because of the sophistication of the electronic warfare and intelligence used during SEA BREEZE, it can be assumed that commercial traffic monitoring included monitoring the track of MH-17.

Past NATO-Ukraine exercises in Crimea were called «SEA BREEZE». This year's annual SEA BREEZE exercise with Ukraine, approved by the rump Ukrainian Parliament, is clouded in mystery with the Pentagon saying it was only «in the planning stage and we can't announce dates yet». However, 200 U.S. Army personnel normally assigned to bases in Germany were in Ukraine during the time of the MH-17 fly-over. They were participating in NATO exercise RAPID TRIDENT II. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense led the exercise.

BREEZE included the AEGIS-class guided missile cruiser USS Vela Gulf. AEGIS cruisers' AN/SPY 1 radar has the ability to track all aircraft over a large region. For example, the AEGIS test center in Moorestown, New Jersey, was able to see the Boeing 747 TWA Flight 800 when it disappeared from radar screens in 1996 near East Moriches Bay, Long Island. According to Lockheed Martin personnel who operated the AEGIS test center in New Jersey, the Navy ordered the SPY 1 radar turned off for «maintenance» shortly before the downing of TWA 800.

From the Black Sea, the Vela Gulf was able to track Malaysian Airlines 17 over the Black Sea and any missiles fired at the plane. U.S. AWACS electronic intelligence (ELINT) aircraft were also flying over the Black Sea region at the time of the MH-17 flyover of Ukraine. Growler aircraft have the capability to jam radar systems in all surface-to-air threats.

The announcement of U.S. BREEZE and RAPID TRIDENT II military maneuvers came on May 21, 2014, and were announced on the website operated by Vice President Joe Biden's office. Biden's son, Hunter Biden, is a newly-named director of the Ukrainian natural gas and oil company Burisma Holdings, Ltd., owned by Ihor Kolomoisky, the Ukrainian-Israeli mafia oligarch, whose is known as the «Chameleon». Kolomoisky has raised his own mercenary army, complete with the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17. Kolomoisky, the Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine, has threatened terrorist attacks against Russian-speaking officials in eastern Ukraine, including assassinations.

Burisma is a typical RUIM [Russian - Ukrainian - Israeli - Mafia] operation, with subsidiaries in such tax havens as Cyprus and the British Virgin Islands. It is part of Kolomoisky's large umbrella corporation called Privat Group.

Kolomoisky, estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, also has strong connections inside Kiev's Borispol International Airport, where it has been reported that Ukrainian Interior Ministry troops stormed the air traffic control tower shortly before MH-17 was shot down. A Spanish air traffic controller, who possessed knowledge of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry's involvement in the shootdown of MH-17, reportedly had his life threatened by people he described as «Maidan» troops, a reference to the Maidan Square uprising that toppled the Ukrainian government earlier this year. The Spanish controller, identified only as «Carlos,» understood that the shoot-down of MH-17 was carried out by supporters of former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Interior Minister Arsen Avakov. Kolomoisky is a political ally of Tymoshenko and Avakov.

Kolomoisky, until 2012, owned Aerosvit Airlines, which used Borispol as a hub, and Donbassaero, which was based out of Donetsk Airport. Aerosvit leased all of its planes, including a Boeing 767, from Boeing Capital. After filing for bankruptcy, Aerosvit and Donbassaero ceased flying in April 2013. Among other Kolomoisky airlines, Skyways Express, based out of Stockholm Arland Airport; City Express, based at Gothenburg, Sweden Airport; and Cimber Sterling, based out of Sønderborg and Copenhagen Kastrup Airports in Denmark, all filed for bankruptcy in 2012. Kolomoisky continues to be active in commercial aviation. His Private Group owns Dniproavia, which is based at Dnipropetrovsk Airport. Kolomoisky’s aviation and Israeli security contacts gives him carte blanche access to secure airport facilities in Europe and around the world.

Kolomoisky's forces are armed with advanced weaponry, obtained both from Ukrainian weapons inventories and from purchases on the black market. Kolomoisky's forces reportedly possess the BUK surface-to-air missile system said to have been used to shoot down MH-17. Kolomoisky's forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force.

At the heart of Kolomoisky's Army is a Nazi «Brownshirt»-style force of ardent Kolomoisky loyalists who have used guns, iron bars, and batons to seize control of factories and offices in Ukraine that Kolomoisky has expropriated from so-called «separatist» sympathizers.

[...]

A Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777, the same type that was used by MH-17 and the still-missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370, which disappeared on March 8 while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, is stored in a hangar at Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv. The Boeing 777 in Israel, with serial number 28416, Malaysia registration tail numb 9M-MRI, was sold to GA Telesis, LLC of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, on October 21, 2013. The Boeing 777 was re-registered with the United States tail number N105GT and first stored at Tarbes Lourdes Pyrenees airport and on November 4, 2013, was transferred to Tel Aviv, where it was last spotted in a hangar.

[...]

The presence of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Tel Aviv, the mysterious disappearance of a second Malaysian Boeing 777 on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, and the attack on yet a third Amsterdam-to-Kuala Lumpur Malaysian Boeing 777 over eastern Ukraine may be more than coincidental. Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport is a center for Israeli Mossad activity in Western Europe. Israeli-owned ICTS controls the security at Schiphol for passengers and cargo. It was ICTS that permitted Nigerian national Umar Farouk Abdulmutallah to slip past Schiphol’s normally stringent security on Christmas 2009 and board a Northwest Airlines Airbus bound for Detroit. While approaching Detroit, Abdulmutallah, who was permitted to board by ICTS in Amsterdam without a passport or U.S. visa, tried to detonate explosive materials sewn into his underpants.

The seizure of the air traffic control center at Borispol by allies of Kolomoisky shortly before the shooting down of MH-17 and Kolomoisky’s strong links to Israel, which benefited immensely from the downing of MH-17 because it drew the attention of the world’s media away from its ground invasion of Gaza, which began just as initial reports about the fate of MH-17 were being transmitted, may be the real story behind the loss of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and the horrible deaths of its 298 passengers and crew.

[cursichella1]

(Check one) ______ model number ________ one specific plane
Actually neither one of these. 9M-MRC, 9M-MRD, and 9M-MRO are all registration numbers...
But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

Thank you, Linksplatinum, for taking the time to clarify all of this! Kind of a monumental task!

The planes' i.d.'s and possibilities make much more sense now, but then now so does the scenario in the investmentwatchblog that you posted...oiiiii.

[Cidersomerset]

If you watched the excellent one season series Rubicon
it is all about the job of government 'Analysts'.....


'The US government has a pattern of making these claim'...


Good points in this interview the former analyst is saying
the administration is not telling the truth on many of these
operations from Iraq to Syria and more often than not they
are lying for their own agendas......

Which is what we've been saying.



US intelligence officers think evidence on MH17 downing not adequate

Jb4iHw2WzfE

Published on 30 Jul 2014


A group of former US intelligence officers are calling on President Barack Obama to release
more evidence on the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. Believing the US has not yet
provided hard evidence to back up its claims of separatist and Russian involvement in the
tragedy, the officers signed an open letter to the president asking for answers. RT’s Manila
Chan speaks with one of the signatories, former CIA analyst Larry Johnson, to find out more.

[Cidersomerset]

Here we go over the last couple of years the military budget
has been cut in the UK, to the anger of the hawks who are
always paranoid. I have been wondering when they can use a
flash point, to start lobbying for more Tanks and bombs.....





http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

31 July 2014 Last updated at 01:52

Nato 'unprepared' for Russia threat, say MPs

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76635000/jpg/_76635042_76635038.jpg

Pro-Russian militants sit on a tank in Donetsk,
eastern Ukraine Pro-Russian militants in Ukraine. The MPs warned about the use of irregular militias.


Nato is poorly prepared for an attack on a member state from Russia, an influential group of MPs has warned.

The Commons Defence Committee said the recent Ukraine conflict showed "serious deficiencies"
in Nato's preparedness to counter threats - and "radical reform" was needed.

The MPs said the risk of a conventional assault remained low, - but warned over methods such as
cyber-attacks and the use of irregular militias.

Nato said it would study the findings.

The committee called for changes including:

Establishing a continuous presence of Nato troops and military equipment in "vulnerable"
Baltic states, including Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania

Adding unconventional threats such as irregular militia and cyber-attacks to Nato's Article
5 commitment for all members to come to the aid of a member which is attacked
"Dramatic" improvements to existing rapid reaction forces.
Large-scale exercises involving military and political leaders from all Nato states

The MPs also warned Nato "may not have the collective political will to take concerted
action to deter attack".

And they said public opinion may not support the use of military force to honour Article 5
commitments in a confrontation with Russia.

"Nato is currently not well-prepared for a Russian threat against a Nato member state,"
the report said.

"A Russian unconventional attack, using asymmetric tactics - the latest term for this is
'ambiguous warfare' - designed to slip below Nato's response threshold, would be
particularly difficult to counter."

'Too complacent'

Tory MP Rory Stewart, who was elected chairman of the committee in May, said: "The risk
of attack by Russia on a Nato member state, whilst still small, is significant. We are not
convinced that Nato is ready for this threat.

"Nato has been too complacent about the threat from Russia, and it is not well-prepared.

"Even worse, the nature of Russian tactics is changing fast - including cyber-attacks,
information warfare, and the backing of irregular 'separatist groups', combining armed
civilians with Russian Special Forces operating without insignia," said Mr Stewart, a
former soldier and diplomat who has worked in the Balkans, Afghanistan and Iraq.

"We have already seen how these tactics have been deployed by Russia and its proxies
in Ukraine to destabilise a Nato partner state, annex part of its territory and paralyse its
ability to respond."


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76579000/jpg/_76579013_76579011.jpg

Typhoon jet Typhoon jets have already taken part in exercises in eastern Europe


The report said that while Nato had not seen Russia as a territorial threat for 20 years,
recent events meant it was "forced to do so".

"Events in Ukraine this year, following on from the cyber attack on Estonia in 2007 and
the invasion of Georgia by Russia in 2008, are a 'wake-up call' for Nato", it read.

"They have revealed alarming deficiencies in the state of Nato preparedness, which will
be tough to fix."

The committee also called on the government to show leadership when it hosts a Nato
summit in Wales in September. The report added: "The UK government should take the
lead in ensuring that the Nato summit addresses these threats in the most concrete and
systematic fashion."

'Adapt to change'

Nato spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said: "We have not seen the report by the UK Defence
Select Committee but we'll study it carefully once it's published.

"As early as March, the Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen called Russia's
military actions in and around Ukraine a wake-up call for the alliance and for the wider
international community.

"He has also made clear that Nato must adapt to a changed security environment and that
the Wales Summit in September will be an important milestone in that process.

"Nato has already taken measures to reinforce collective defence, especially for our eastern
allies, with more planes in the air, more ships at sea, and more exercises on the ground.

"All 28 allies are contributing, and the United Kingdom is playing an important role in policing
Baltic airspace and planned exercises in Poland."

The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which was formed in 1949, is predicated upon a series
of collective security guarantees between its members.

The alliance has expanded widely in the past 15 years, admitting states that border Russia and
three - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - which were once part of the Soviet Union.

'Future threats'

Earlier this week, it emerged that the UK is to send a "full battle group" of 1,350 military
personnel to take part in Nato manoeuvres in Poland to support allies in eastern Europe.

It is the UK's largest such commitment to the region since 2008.

Labour said the report underlined Nato's position as the "cornerstone" of UK defence policy
and the "sole organisation for collective defence".

"The government must demonstrate UK leadership on the international stage at the upcoming
Wales summit," said shadow defence secretary Vernon Coaker.

"Recalibrating Nato as a military and political alliance to deter future threats must be a priority
for this government which has failed under David Cameron to think strategically about future
UK defence capabilities."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28577904

[Cidersomerset]

The Elite, the ‘Great Game’ and World War III

new Thursday 31st July 2014 at 06:34 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bildR_dees.jpg


https://store.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/logo_store.png


‘The control of the US, and of global politics, by the wealthiest families of the planet
is exercised in a powerful, profound and clandestine manner. This control began in
Europe and has a continuity that can be traced back to the time when the bankers
discovered it was more profitable to give loans to governments than to needy
individuals.

These banking families and their subservient beneficiaries have come to own most
major businesses over the two centuries during which they have secretly and
increasingly organised themselves as controllers of governments worldwide and as
arbiters of war and peace.

Unless we understand this we will be unable to understand the real reasons for the
two world wars and the impending Third World War, a war that is almost certain to
begin as a consequence of the US attempt to seize and control Central Asia. The
only way out is for the US to back off – something the people of the US and the
world want, but the elite does not.’


The US is a country controlled through the privately owned Federal Reserve, which
in turn is controlled by the handful of banking families that established it by
deception in the first place.

In his interesting book The Secret Team, Col. Fletcher Prouty, briefing officer of the
US President from 1955-63, narrates a remarkable incident in which Winston
Churchill made a most revealing utterance during World War II:


“On this particular night there had been a heavy raid on Rotterdam. He sat there,
meditating, and then, as if to himself, he said, ‘Unrestricted submarine warfare,
unrestricted air bombing – this is total war.’ He continued sitting there, gazing at a
large map, and then said, ‘Time and the Ocean and some guiding star and High
Cabal have made us what we are’.”

Prouty further states:


“This was a most memorable scene and a revelation of reality that is infrequent, at
best. If for the great Winston Churchill, there is a ‘High Cabal’ that has made us
what we are, our definition is complete. Who could know better than Churchill
himself during the darkest days of World War II, that there exists, beyond doubt,
an international High Cabal? This was true then. It is true today, especially in these
times of the One World Order. This all-powerful group has remained superior
because it had learned the value of anonymity.” This “High Cabal” is the “One
World Cabal” of today, also called the elite by various writers.

The High Cabal and What They Control

The elite owns the media, banks, defence and oil industry. In his book Who’s Who
of the Elite Robert Gaylon Ross Sr. states: “It is my opinion that they own the US
military, NATO, the Secret Service, the CIA, the Supreme Court, and many of the
lower courts. They appear to control, either directly or indirectly, most of the state,
county, and local law enforcement agencies.”

The elite is intent on conquering the world through the use of the abilities of the
people of the United States. It was as far back as 1774 that Amschel Mayer
Rothschild stated at a gathering of the twelve richest men of Prussia in
Frankfurt: “Wars should be directed so that the nations on both sides should be
further in our debt.” He further enunciated at the same meeting: “Panics and
financial depressions would ultimately result in World Government, a new order of
one world government.”

The elite owns numerous “think tanks” that work for expanding, consolidating and
perpetuating its hold on the globe. The Royal Institute of International Affairs
(RIIA), the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral
Commission, and many other similar organisations are all funded by the elite and
work for it. These think tanks publish journals, such as Foreign Affairs, in which
these imperialist and anti-mankind ideas are edified as publications, and then, if
need be, expanded in the form of books that are given wide publicity.

Zbigniew Brzezinski and Henry Kissinger et al, as well as the neo-con “thinkers,”
owe their positions and good living standards to the largesse of the elite. This is an
important point that must be kept in full view at all times. These thinkers and
writers are on the payroll of the elite and work for them. In case someone has any
doubts about such a statement, it might help to read the following quotes from
Professor Peter Dale Scott’s comprehensively researched book The Road to 9/11 –
Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America (University of California Press, 2007):


…Bundy’s Harvard protégé Kissinger was named to be national security adviser
after having chaired an important “study group” at the Council on Foreign
Relations. As a former assistant to Nelson Rockefeller, Kissinger had been paid by
Rockefeller to write a book on limited warfare for the CFR. He had also campaigned
hard in Rockefeller’s losing campaign for the Presidential nomination in 1968. Thus
Rockefeller and the CFR might have been excluded from control of the Republican
Party, but not from the Republican White House. (Page 22)

The following quote from page 38 of the book is also very revealing:


The Kissinger-Rockefeller relationship was complex and certainly intense. As
investigative reporter Jim Hougan wrote: “Kissinger, married to a former
Rockefeller aide, owner of a Georgetown mansion whose purchase was enabled
only by Rockefeller gifts and loans, was always a protégé of his patron Nelson
Rockefeller, even when he wasn’t directly employed by him.”

Professor Scott adds:


Nixon’s and Kissinger’s arrival in the White House in 1969 coincided with David
Rockefeller’s becoming CEO of Chase Manhattan Bank. The Nixon-Kissinger foreign
policy of detente was highly congruous with Rockefeller’s push to internationalise
Chase Manhattan banking operations. Thus in 1973 Chase Manhattan became the
first American bank to open an office in Moscow. A few months later, thanks to an
invitation arranged by Kissinger, Rockefeller became the first US banker to talk with
Chinese Communist leaders in Beijing.

How They Manipulate Public Opinion

In addition to these strategic “think tanks” the elite has set up a chain of research
institutes devoted to manipulating public opinion in a manner the elite desires. As
pointed out by John Coleman in his eye opening book The Tavistock Institute on
Human Relations – Shaping the Moral, Spiritual, Cultural, Political and Economic
Decline of the United States of America, it was in 1913 that an institute was
established at Wellington House, London for manipulation of public opinion.
According to Coleman:


The modern science of mass manipulation was born at Wellington House London,
the lusty infant being midwifed by Lord Northcliffe and Lord Rothmere. The British
monarchy, Lord Rothschild, and the Rockefellers were responsible for funding the
venture… the purpose of those at Wellington House was to effect a change in the
opinions of British people who were adamantly opposed to war with Germany, a
formidable task that was accomplished by “opinion making” through polling. The
staff consisted of Arnold Toynbee, a future director of studies at the Royal Institute
of International Affairs (RIIA), Lord Northcliffe, and the Americans, Walter
Lippmann and Edward Bernays. Lord Northcliffe was related to the Rothschilds
through marriage.

Bernays was a nephew of Sigmund Freud, a fact never mentioned, and developed
the technique of “engineering consent.” When Sigmund Freud moved to Britain he
also, secretly, became associated with this institute through the Tavistock Institute.
According to Coleman, Bernays “pioneered the use of psychology and other social
sciences to shape and form public opinion so that the public thought such
manufactured opinions were their own.”

The Tavistock Institute has a 6 billion dollar fund and 400 subsidiary organisations
are under its control along with 3,000 think tanks, mostly in the USA. The Stanford
Research Institute, the Hoover Institute, the Aspen Institute of Colorado, and many
others, devoted to manipulation of US as well as global public opinion, are
Tavistock offshoots. This helps explain why the US public, by and large, is so
mesmerised as to be unable to see things clearly and to react.

Bilderberg researcher Daniel Estulin quotes from Mary Scobey’s book To Nurture
Humanness a statement attributed to Professor Raymond Houghton, that the CFR
has been clear for a very long time that “absolute behaviour control is imminent…
without mankind’s self realisation that a crisis is at hand.”

Also keep in mind that currently 80% of US electronic and print media is owned by
only six large corporations. This development has taken place in the past two
decades. These corporations are elite owned. It is almost impossible for anyone
who is acquainted with what is going on at the global level to watch, even for a few
minutes, the distortions, lies and fabrications, incessantly pouring out of this media,
a propaganda and brainwashing organ of the elite.

Once your picture is clear it is also easy to notice the criminal silence of the media
on crimes being perpetrated against humanity at the behest of the elite. How many
people know that the cancer rates in Fallujah, Iraq are higher than those in
Hiroshima and Nagasaki because of the use of depleted uranium, and maybe other
secret nuclear devices, by US forces? Fallujah was punished for its heroic resistance
against the American forces.

The Importance of Eurasia

Why is the US in Central Asia? In order to understand this, one has to look at the
writings of the stooges of the elite – Brzezinski, Kissinger, Samuel P Huntington,
and their likes. It is important to note that members of these elite paid think tanks
publish books as part of a strategy to give respectability to subsequent illegal,
immoral and predatory actions that are to be taken at the behest of the elite. The
views are not necessarily their own – they are the views of the think tanks. These
stooges formulate and pronounce policies and plans at the behest of their masters,
through bodies like the Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group, etc.

In his infinitely arrogant book The Grand Chessboard, published in 1997, Brzezinski
spelled out the philosophy behind the current US military eruption. He starts by
quoting the well-known views of the British geographer Sir Halford J Mackinder
(1861–1947), another worker for the elite. Mackinder was a member of
the ‘Coefficients Dining Club’ established by members of the Fabian Society in
1902. The continuity of the policies of the elite is indicated by the fact Brzezinski
starts from Mackinder’s thesis first propounded in 1904:


“Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland: Who rules the Heartland
commands the World-Island: who commands the World-Island commands the
world.”

Brzezinski argues that for the first time in human history a non-Eurasian power has
become preeminent and it must hold sway over the Eurasian continent if it is to
remain the preeminent global power: “For America the chief geopolitical prize is
Eurasia… About 75 percent of the world’s people live in Eurasia… Eurasia accounts
for about 60 percent of the world’s GNP and about three fourths of the world’s
known energy resources.”

It is not just the geostrategic location of this region – it is also its wealth, “both in
its enterprises and beneath its soil,” that holds such attraction for the elite whose
greed for money, and lust for power, remain insatiable, as if there was a sickness
afflicting it.

Brzezinski writes:


“But it is on the globe’s most important playing field – Eurasia – that a potential
rival to America might at some point arise. This focusing on the key players and
properly assessing the terrain has to be a point of departure for the formulation of
American geostrategy for the long-term management of America’s Eurasian
geopolitical interests.”

These lines were published in 1997. Millions of people have died in the past two
decades and millions have been rendered homeless in this region but it remains
a “playing” field for Brzezinski and his likes! In his book Brzezinski has drawn two
very interesting maps – one of these has the caption The Global Zone of Percolating
Violence (page 53) and the other (page 124) is captioned The Eurasian Balkans.
The first of these encircles a region which includes the following countries: Sudan,
Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, all Central Asian states, Afghanistan,
Pakistan and parts of Russia as well as India. The second one has two circles, an
inner circle and a wider circle – the outer circle encloses the same countries as in
the first map but the inner circle covers Iran, Afghanistan, eastern Turkey and the
former Soviet Republics in Central Asia.

“This huge region, torn by volatile hatreds and surrounded by competing powerful
neighbours, is likely to be a major battlefield…” writes Brzezinski.

He further writes:


“A possible challenge to American primacy from Islamic fundamentalism could be
part of the problem of this unstable region.”

These lines were written at a time when this kind of fundamentalism was not a
problem – subsequently the US manipulated things and chose to make it one by its
provocative and deceptive tactics. According to its strategic thinkers, the US might
face a serious challenge from a coalition of China, Russia and Iran and must do
whatever it can to prevent such a coalition from forming.

For Brzezinski, “terrorism” – a Tavistock-type concept – is just a well planned and
well thought out strategy, a lie and a deception, to provide cover for a military
presence in the Central Eurasian region and elsewhere. It is being used to keep the
US public in a state of fear, to keep Russia in a state of insecurity about further
breakup (the US has trained and supported Chechen fighters, “terrorists,”
throughout) and to justify presence of US troops in and around Central Asia.

The Concocted War on Terrorism

Terrorism provides justification for transforming the United States into a police
state. According to the Washington Post of 20 & 21 December 2010, the US now
has 4,058 anti-terrorism organisations! These are certainly not meant for those so-
called terrorists who operate in Central Asia – the number far exceeds the number
of so-called terrorists in the entire world. Unbridled domestic spying by US agencies
is now a fact of life and the US public, as always, has accepted this because of the
collusion of media and Tavistock type institutes owned by the elite.

The US historian Howard Zinn puts it very well: “The so-called war on terrorism is
not only a war against innocent people in other countries, but also a war on the
people of the United States: a war on our liberties, a war on our standard of living.
The wealth of the country is being stolen from the people and handed over to the
superrich. The lives of our young are being stolen. And the thieves are in the White
House.” Actually the thieves control the White House and have been doing so for a
very long time.

In his outstanding book Crossing the Rubicon, Michael Ruppert points out that
much of the violence in the Central Asian region as well as in Pakistan, which has
been encircled in two maps in Brzezinski’s book, was “initiated by the US
proxies.” “Given that these maps were published a full four years before the first
plane hit the World Trade Centre, they would fall in a category of evidence I
learned about at LAPD [Los Angeles Police Department]. We called them ‘clues’.”
This means that the eruption of US militarism after 9/11, and the event itself, were
part of a pre-planned and coherent strategy of global domination in which the
people of the US were also “conquered” through totalitarian legislation carried out
in the wake of 9/11.

As Brzezinski puts it:


America is too democratic at home to be autocratic abroad. This limits the use of
America’s power, especially its capacity for military intimidation. Never before has a
popular democracy attained international supremacy. But the pursuit of power is
not a goal that commands popular passion, except in conditions of a sudden threat
or challenge to the public’s sense of domestic well-being… The economic self-denial
(that is, defence spending) and the human sacrifice (casualties even among
professional soldiers) required in the effort are uncongenial to democratic instincts.
Democracy is inimical to imperial mobilisation.

Certainly post 9/11 legislation, the extraordinary expansion of agencies and
surveillance of the US public is a cause of great satisfaction for the elite – the US
can hardly be called a democracy now. As reported by the Washington Post, the
National Security Agency intercepts over 1.7 billion emails, phone calls and other
communications every day and stores them. No wonder Bush called 9/11 “a great
opportunity” and Rumsfeld saw it analogous to World War II to “refashion the
world.”

In order to achieve the objectives of the elite, the US destroyed Yugoslavia while
Russia stood by mesmerised and impotent, carried out regime changes in Central
Asia, set up military bases in East Europe and Central Asia, and staged highly
provocative military exercises testing Russia’s and China’s will. It set up a military
base in Kyrgyzstan that has a 500 mile or so border with China. When the Chinese
protested recent naval exercises with South Korea were too close to Chinese
territory, a US spokesman responded: “Those determinations are made by us, and
us alone… Where we exercise, when we exercise, with whom and how, with what
assets and so forth are determinations that are made by the United States Navy, by
the Department of Defence, by the United States government.” As journalist Rick
Rozoff notes: “There is no way such confrontational, arrogant and vulgar language
was not understood at its proper value in Beijing.”

The US has acquired bases in Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, and the Czech Republic –
and set up the largest military base ever built in the region, Camp Bondsteel, in
Kosovo. According to a report in the Russian Kommersant newspaper on 3 March
2011, a four-phase plan for deployment of a US missile system in Europe is to be
fully implemented by the end of 2020. The US is also busy setting up bilateral
military ties in Russia’s backyard with Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan,
Turkmenistan and is pursuing the goal of a “Greater Central Asia” from Afghanistan
right up to the Middle East, a great corridor from where the oil, gas, and great
mineral wealth of this region will flow to the coffers of the US elite, at bloody
expense to the local people.

As remarked by the Indian career diplomat M.K. Bhadrakumar: “The time is not far
off before they begin to sense that ‘the war on terror’ is providing a convenient
rubric under which the US is incrementally securing for itself a permanent abode in
the highlands of Hindu Kush, the Pamirs, Central Asian steppes and the Caucasus
that form the strategic hub overlooking Russia, China, India and Iran.” The scene
for a great war involving the great powers of the time – US, Russia and China – is
now set, by design of the elite. It is just a matter of time.

Time and again the US elite has taken its good people into great wars through
documented and proven deceptions – the sinking of the Lusitania during World War
I, Pearl Harbour in World War II, and so on. The elite considers us “human
garbage” – a term first used by the French in Indo-China. It is also generating a
good deal of “human garbage” in the US. A World Bank report points out that in
2005, 28 million Americans were “insecure” – in 2007 the number had risen to 46
million! One in every five Americans is faced with the possibility of
becoming “destitute” – 38 million people receive food coupons!

Michael Ruppert laments:


My country is dead. Its people have surrendered to tyranny and in so doing, they
have become tyranny’s primary support group; its base; its defender. Every day
they offer their endorsement of tyranny by banking in its banks and spending their
borrowed money with the corporations that run it. The great Neocon strategy of
George H.W. Bush has triumphed. Convince the America people that they can’t live
without the ‘good things’, then sit back and watch as they endorse the
progressively more outrageous crimes you commit as you throw them bones with
ever less meat on them. All the while lock them into debt. Destroy the middle class,
the only political base that need be feared. Make them accept, because of their
shared guilt, ever-more repressive police state measures. Do whatever you want.

A global economic system erected on inhuman and predatory values, where a few
possess more wealth than the billions of hungry put together, will end, but the end
will be painful and bloody. It is a system in which the elite thrives on war and
widespread human misery, on death and destruction by design. As Einstein said, “I
do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they
will use in the Fourth – sticks and stones!”

Prof. Mujahid Kamran is Vice Chancellor, University of the Punjab, Lahore, Pakistan,
and his book The Grand Deception – Corporate America and Perpetual War has just
been published (April 2011) by Sang e Meel Publications, Lahore, Pakistan.


Read more: The Elite, the ‘Great Game’ and World War III



http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/borderedcover.jpg


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-elite-the-great-game-and-world-war-iii/25160

[Observer1964]

CNN publishes photo that proves Putin shot down plane in Ukraine
#mh17 #pentagon #Satellite #blameputin

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtKtw3yIgAEjHJc.jpg

(#BlamePutin is an increasing trend by people who are mocking the west as they are blaming everything on him. #Russia #MH17 #Ukraine)

[Hervé]

[...]

How They Manipulate Public Opinion

[...]

… the purpose of those at Wellington House was to effect a change in the opinions of British people who were adamantly opposed to war with Germany, a formidable task that was accomplished by “opinion making” through polling. The staff consisted of Arnold Toynbee, a future director of studies at the Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIIA), Lord Northcliffe, and the Americans, Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays. Lord Northcliffe was related to the Rothschilds through marriage.

Bernays was a nephew of Sigmund Freud, a fact never mentioned, and developed the technique of “engineering consent.” When Sigmund Freud moved to Britain he also, secretly, became associated with this institute through the Tavistock Institute.

According to Coleman, Bernays “pioneered the use of psychology and other social sciences to shape and form public opinion so that the public thought such manufactured opinions were their own.”

The Tavistock Institute has a 6 billion dollar fund and 400 subsidiary organisations are under its control along with 3,000 think tanks, mostly in the USA. The Stanford Research Institute, the Hoover Institute, the Aspen Institute of Colorado, and many others, devoted to manipulation of US as well as global public opinion, are Tavistock offshoots. This helps explain why the US public, by and large, is so mesmerised as to be unable to see things clearly and to react.

[...]

See this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73054-True-Cabal-Insider-Dr.-Richard-Day-Delivers-Talk-in-1969-Outlining-the-Full-Agenda&p=855531&viewfull=1#post855531) (<---)

[Hervé]

Interesting puzzle pieces:

Map of a Tragedy: How MH17 Came Apart Over Ukraine (http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/)


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/villagemap.jpg
Renée Rigdon/The Wall Street Journal



Hrabove

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/map-top-flat.jpg
DigitalGlobe via Reuters, annotations by The Wall Street Journal



Rozsypne

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/map-2-full.jpg
Google, annotations by The Wall Street Journal



Petropavlivka

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/map-3-full.jpg
Google, annotations by The Wall Street Journal


So... upper part of cockpit in "Petropavlivka":


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/photo.jpg
(12) "Flight-deck window cut-out" Paul Sonne/The Wall Street Journal


... and:

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/forward-fuselage.png


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/photo2.jpg
(18) "Upper fuselage Skin" Paul Sonne/The Wall Street Journal


... but, lower part of cockpit in "Rozsypne":

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/cockpit-lower-nose.png


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/452428560.jpg
(9) "Cockpit and lower nose" Rob Stothard/Getty Images


I've been looking and only the upper parts of the cockpit show some "shrapnel" evidence... none on the lower parts...

That would rule out the 30 mm anti-tank rounds (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=859683&viewfull=1#post859683)...

Then, I am not sure how "proximity-detonated" rockets work, but if fired from ground, I would expect the lower belly portion of that plane to have been affected... right?

So, one wonders what's left that could have dismantled that plane at high altitude to bring it down...

PS: Looking at the Hrabove debris field, it seems the pieces were falling northward...

PPS: Damn article! they keep updating it!

[Billy]

From Peter Haisenko an expert in aviation who closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.


http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/




Shocking Analysis of the ‘Shooting Down’ of Malaysian MH17

Juli 30, 2014
Peter Haisenko in Cockpit of Condor DC 10

By Peter Haisenko Zur deutschen Version bitte hier anklicken

The tragedy of Malaysian MH 017 continues to elude any light of clarity being cast over it. The flight recorders are in England and are evaluated. What can come of it? Maybe more than you would assume. Especially the voice recorder will be interesting when you look at the picture of a cockpit fragment. As an expert in aviation I closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.

First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expresssed of a “potentially tragic error / accident” regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.

Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area
Source for all photos: Internet

I recommend to click on the little picture to the right.
26660

26661

You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefull exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

In sifting through the available images one thing stands out: All wreckage of the sections behind the cockpit are largely intact, except for the fact that only fragments of the aircraft remained . Only the cockpit part shows these peculiar marks of destruction. This leaves the examiner with an important clue. This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material. This is on account of the nose of any aircraft having to withstand the impact of a large bird at high speeds. You can see in the photo, that in this area significantly stronger aluminum alloys were being installed than in the remainder of the outer skin of the fuselage. One remembers the crash of Pan Am over Lockerbie. It was a large segment of the cockpit that due to the special architecture survived the crash in one piece. In the case of flight MH 017 it becomes abundantly clear that there also an explosion took place inside the aircraft.

Tank destroying mix of amunititon
Bullet holes in the outer skin

So what could have happened? Russia recently published radar recordings, that confirm at least one Ukrainian SU 25 in close proximity to MH 017. This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

What “mistake” was actually being committed – and by whom?
Graze on the wing

Because the interior of a commercial aircraft is a hermetically sealed pressurized chamber, the explosions will, in split second, increase the pressure inside the cabin to extreme levels or breaking point. An aircraft is not equipped for this, it will burst like a balloon. This explains a coherent scenario. The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of contstruction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove.

Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit. Interestingly, I found that both the high-resolution photo of the fragment of bullet riddled cockpit as well as the segment of grazed wing have in the meantime disappeared from Google Images. One can find virtually no more pictures of the wreckage, except the well known smoking ruins.

read more.

[Operator]

...
Then, I am not sure how "proximity-detonated" rockets work, but if fired from ground, I would expect the lower belly portion of that plane to have been affected... right?
...


I am not an aviation expert but know a little bit more about torpedoes.

In the navy world they learned that it is more effective not to 'hit' a ship with a torpedo
but to explode one beneath the hull of a ship.
It will rapidly sink in a matter of a few minutes, it's cruel this way because there will be
far less survivors.

I guess something similar may apply to planes ...

P.S. It will sink faster because it breaks in 2 halves ...

[Billy]

quote from my above post.


This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

I think this guy has something here. The cockpit section does have entrance and exit holes around 30mm in diameter.

what do others think.

[TargeT]

In the navy world they learned that it is more effective not to 'hit' a ship with a torpedo
but to explode one beneath the hull of a ship.
It will rapidly sink in a matter of a few minutes, it's cruel this way because there will be
far less survivors.

I guess something similar may apply to planes ...

P.S. It will sink faster because it breaks in 2 halves ...

Yep, the concussive wave is the power you want & it forms best on it's own, a slight distance from the target works best, that way the reaction of the explosive is not inhibited by a solid mass (which will re-direct the blast slightly)

Here's a run down on the Sidewinder:

The Sidewinder isn't designed to go off when it actually hits the target; it's designed to go off when it gets very close to the target. The missile control system uses an ingenious optical target detector to figure out when it's within range.

The detector consists of eight laser-emitter diodes and eight light-sensor diodes arranged around the outside of the missile airframe, just behind the flight fins. When the Sidewinder is in flight, the detector is constantly emitting laser beams in a spoke pattern around the missile. If the missile gets close enough to the target, the laser beams will reflect off the aircraft body and bounce back to the sensor diodes. The control system recognizes that the missile is right next to the target and triggers the warhead.The current Sidewinder, as well as its replacement, the AIM-9X, carries the 20-pound (9-kg) WDU-17/B warhead. The WDU-17/B consists of a case assembly, a good amount of PBXN-3 high explosive, booster plates, an initiator device and nearly 200 titanium fragmentation rods. When the target detector senses the enemy aircraft, it activates the fuze mechanism, which sends an explosive charge through the initiator (a train of low-explosive material) to the booster plates. The explosive charge from the initiator ignites low-explosive material in the booster plate channels, which ignites explosive pellets surrounding the high-explosive material. The pellets ignite the high explosive, causing it to release a huge amount of hot gas in a short amount of time.

The powerful explosive force from this expanding gas blasts the titanium rods outward, breaking them apart to form thousands of metal pieces, all zipping through the air at top speed. If the warhead goes off within range of the target, the speeding titanium fragments will break apart the enemy aircraft's fuselage. In some cases, the missile may go right up the target's tailpipe, demolishing the aircraft from the inside. The WDU-17/B is referred to as an annular blast fragmentation warhead because the explosive force carries the metal fragments outward in all directions, in an annular, or ring-shaped, pattern.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/sidewinder.htm

[Hervé]

[...]

... the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

[...]

What bugs me with that "expert" report is that he considers that those alledged 30 mm "bullets/shells" entered and exited without doing what they where supposed to do on the lower part of the cockpit found in "Rozsypne," and if his hypothsis of "shot at from both sides" is to hold any water, then the two fighter/assault jets were firing at each other... somehow.

As I mention in post # 777 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858899&viewfull=1#post858899) (gulp!) "...at least they are looking at the right kind of pieces of evidence" in reference to Cidersomerset's linking to a similar article (http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/) from that German fellow.

As I also mentioned in another post, these upper-cockpit pieces look like they have been the targets of close-range target-practice...

I gather that these two pieces of evidence will require some serious CSI investigation to sort out what's what!


PS: For close-up views of "exit" impacts," see post # 642 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=857541&viewfull=1#post857541) and post # 751 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=858616&viewfull=1#post858616)

[Operator]

quote from my above post.


This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

I think this guy has something here. The cockpit section does have entrance and exit holes around 30mm in diameter.

what do others think.

It was already mentioned and discussed before ...

Please review my post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=859047#post859047) and Amzer Zo's reaction here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=859116&viewfull=1#post859116).

No problem, if there's something new of course ... just to prevent repetition.

[Operator]

...
Here's a run down on the Sidewinder:

The Sidewinder isn't designed to go off when it actually hits the target; it's designed to go off when it gets very close to the target. The missile control system uses an ingenious optical target detector to figure out when it's within range.

The detector consists of eight laser-emitter diodes and eight light-sensor diodes arranged around the outside of the missile airframe, just behind the flight fins. When the Sidewinder is in flight, the detector is constantly emitting laser beams in a spoke pattern around the missile. If the missile gets close enough to the target, the laser beams will reflect off the aircraft body and bounce back to the sensor diodes. The control system recognizes that the missile is right next to the target and triggers the warhead.The current Sidewinder, as well as its replacement, the AIM-9X, carries the 20-pound (9-kg) WDU-17/B warhead. The WDU-17/B consists of a case assembly, a good amount of PBXN-3 high explosive, booster plates, an initiator device and nearly 200 titanium fragmentation rods. When the target detector senses the enemy aircraft, it activates the fuze mechanism, which sends an explosive charge through the initiator (a train of low-explosive material) to the booster plates. The explosive charge from the initiator ignites low-explosive material in the booster plate channels, which ignites explosive pellets surrounding the high-explosive material. The pellets ignite the high explosive, causing it to release a huge amount of hot gas in a short amount of time.

The powerful explosive force from this expanding gas blasts the titanium rods outward, breaking them apart to form thousands of metal pieces, all zipping through the air at top speed. If the warhead goes off within range of the target, the speeding titanium fragments will break apart the enemy aircraft's fuselage. In some cases, the missile may go right up the target's tailpipe, demolishing the aircraft from the inside. The WDU-17/B is referred to as an annular blast fragmentation warhead because the explosive force carries the metal fragments outward in all directions, in an annular, or ring-shaped, pattern.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/sidewinder.htm

Your answer raised my interest to dig a bit deeper. Since the debris is scattered in a wide area
miles apart it tells us that the plane must have disintegrated in mid-air. Which makes me think
of a bomb on a carefully chosen place or a scenario like the torpedo or Sidewinder (concussive
wave).

I looked for more precise answers of what happens when a plane is hit by e.g. 'normal' bullets
from a hand gun: http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/gun-on-plane.htm
It apparently can get very bad but no fuselage disintegration.

I also found this comment



...
In real life, a Boeing 737 in Hawaii had the front roof section of the First Class cabin ripped off due to a depressurization caused by some undetected cracks in the airframe at 24,000 feet. There was only one fatality, apparently sucked out of the cabin due to the rapid depressurization but the aircraft landed safely.

The aircraft would certainly not disintegrate unless there is a bomb on board.


on this website: http://www.askcaptainlim.com/-air-travel-flying-49/477-will-a-gunshot-depressurize-the-airplane-cabin.html

or what about this hole ...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2700358169_1d47e1d907.jpg

It appears to me that gunfire or shrapnel alone will not cause an airliner to disintegrate in mid-air.

So next thing to look at is the warhead on the 9M38 missile. Then I found this video ...
LSXMhaFntrU

From this video it becomes clear that the BUK system is pretty complicated and extensive to
work with. It's not low cost at all, not something the Russians would just give away to 'rebels'.

Complete system:



TELAR (9A310M1)
Loader/Launcher (9A39M1)
SNOW DRIFT Surveillance Radar (9S18M1)
Command and Control vehicle (9S470M1)



By the way a much heard complaint by groups that are not allowed to enter the crash site is
that the separatists are not very well organized: "The situation is different at each road block".
I think this confirms that a BUK system could never have been operated by them.

And this video also clearly demonstrates that a launch is noisy and leaves a very distinct
contrail. Such a launch could not have gone unnoticed ...

Then looking a bit deeper into the warhead ...

https://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/450px-9M38M1_9M317.svg_.png



The original missile launched by the SA-11 is known by its designator 9M38. One missile alone is just over eighteen feet long, weighs 1,521 pounds, and contains a 154.3 pound Fragmentation-High Explosive warhead that detonates based on radar proximity fuse. With a two-stage solid rocket fuel engine and roughly fifteen seconds of burn time, the 9M38 can reach an altitude of 46,000 feet and has a range of nineteen miles. It reaches speeds of over 2,000 miles per hour (almost 3,400 feet per second!), traveling at Mach 3. Using semi-active radar homing, the missile is sent flight path corrections based on proportional navigation computations performed by the SPM while the missile is in flight, allowing it to correctly find its way to its target for a successful intercept.

http://sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam/

Not much details to be found except that it is based on fragmentation from a close distance. On another website
(although type of missile was not listed as 9M38) it said that the kill range was 17 meters.
So it needs to get very close to be effective.

So, I really have my doubts if it is 'a done deal' that this plane is 'shot' down by a 9M38.

[Hervé]

That's roughly what that guy said:


FINAL – Part II: Evidence Continues to Emerge #MH17 Is a False Flag Operation (http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii-evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh17-is-a-false-flag-operation/)

Examining the Evidence (http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/category/examining-the-evidence/) July 18, 2014

Key Information in Reverse Chronological Order:

#15 – Dissecting the Fake Intercept Disseminated by SBU (Ukrainian Security Service)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

Note: Half of the Post Translated; The Remaining Half is Speculative

Complete Original of the Post (in Russian) Can Be Found at Eugene-DF LiveJournal (http://eugene-df.livejournal.com/791000.html)

In the disseminated intercept, the place from which the missile was allegedly launched is clearly indicated: the checkpoint at the settlement of Chernukhino.

Pay close attention at the Alleged Map of the MH17 Catastrophe (http://maps.yandex.ru/?text=%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%2C%20%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0% B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%2C%20%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%B B%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD%2C%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB %D0%BE%D0%BA%20%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE&sll=38.515537%2C48.32638&sspn=1.084900%2C0.371810&ll=38.856892%2C48.174615&spn=0.476532%2C0.579600&z=10&l=map&rl=38.49777005%2C48.35446966%7E0.21972656%2C-0.32459094).

As you can see, the distance from the point of launch to the point of the fall is 37 kilometres. At the same time, the elevation of the plane was 10-11 kilometres. For the Russian BUK M2 this distance is, in fact, achievable (although with a very important caveat discussed below).

However, Ukraine does not, and cannot, have modern digital high-tech Anti-Aircraft systems in its arsenal. What it does have, at best, is the older version BUK M1. The system itself is not too bad, and could even fit the stated distance. Except for the caveat that was mentioned.

The thing is that most short to medium range Anti-Aircraft systems work extremely poorly in a “pursuit” mode. There are a number of reasons for this, and I do not intend to belabor the point, but you can take it as an axiom that when the launch is made in “pursuit” of the target, the maximum distance of the launch that successfully hits the target is at least half of the advertised maximum distance (in reality, it's even worse, but let’s leave aside the sad part). Accordingly, the real distance of a “pursuit” launch for BUK M1 is 16 kilometres. What’s more, the last 3 kilometres are purely “God willing” and “without guarantees.”

And, so, we have the background. Let’s see how the picture unfolds:

The launch is alleged to have been made from Chernukhino. The maximum distance of the launch is 16 kilometres. The aircraft fell between Snezhnoye and Torez. That’s 37 kilometres, which is 20 kilometres more than the maximum possible point at which the plane could have been hit. You know, even a plane with turned-off engines can’t glide like that. But the trouble is that the aircraft was not whole.

According to the pattern of the spread of fuselage fragments and bodies, the plane was ruptured practically with the first shot. Here it must be mentioned that the high-explosive/fragmentation warhead of the rocket has a mass of approximately 50 kilograms (by the way, Ukrainians have an outdated modification, which is only 40 kilograms).

Overall, that’s not too little; however, it must be understood that it detonates not when it sticks into an airplane, but when it is still at a certain, and fairly significant distance. Moreover, the main strike factor is not the blast wave, but far more significantly – the stream of fragments. These fragments are previously prepared rods (and in the earlier versions – little cubes, if I recall correctly). And yes, for a jet fighter, that, in itself, is more than sufficient.

However, here we are dealing with a huge airliner. Yes, one rocket will rip the casing, cause depressurization, and will kill a lot of passengers. But it will not break up the airliner into pieces. Given certain conditions, the pilots may even be able to land it. And, in fact, there have been precedents (to be provided in future posts). For example – the very same An-28, which is alleged to have been the first victim of a BUK system; even though it was done for, but the crew was able to successfully catapult out. Which, in some way, symbolizes. An An-28, by the way, is far smaller than a Boeing.

Nevertheless, this has relation to the next part of our analysis. For now, let’s accept as a fact the break-up of the aircraft in the air, at a significant height (which is, in essence, what was observed. Allow me to remind you: “fragments spread over a radius of 15 kilometres.” The key here is that this means the following: the aircraft (or, more precisely, the core of the aircraft) fell literally at the point where the rocket impacted it. Clarifying: as soon as the aircraft turned into a host of fragments of different mass, the separation of these fragments began due to air resistance and the difference in inertia. The densest fragment flew a further 3-6 kilometres, falling more and more steeply. The lightest – spread out and, due to gliding and air currents, fell somewhere within a 10 kilometre radius. The medium ones (primarily pieces of casing with high sail-effect and the victims’ bodies) – fell almost vertically.

In other words, the rocket caught up to the plane no closer than 25 kilometres away from Chernukhino. Which is absolutely impossible for a BUK system.

By the way, we can’t overlook the fact that, at maximum distances, BUK can be used only provided there is support from an external radar installation for location and guiding purposes. In other words, even if a rockets flies far, BUK’s mobile radar does not cover its entire distance.

Accordingly, if SBU’s video above is not fake, then, to our surprise, we discover that it was literally impossible for the aircraft to be shot down by the rebel’s BUK. By the way, what exactly this BUK was doing in Chernukhino with the Cossacks is pretty much inexplicable. It is 60 kilometres whether you go to Donetsk or to Lugansk from there, and this BUK would be unable to protect the skies over either of the key cities. Nor are there any hostilities in the area. It’s also strange for the Militia to expect enemy planes there – it’s not like the pilots are their own enemies to make such detours over the enemy’s territory, is it? Well, all right. As I already stated, let’s accept, for the moment, that the intercept is not fake.

And that is what is so strange here: SBU literally offers evidence that proves that that the Militia had no part in the shooting down of the Boeing! The fact that they blame themselves in the recording is quite understandable. Unlike the fascists, they have a conscience, which takes its toll until you are sure it was not you who did it.

Ok. But did somebody, in fact, shoot down the plane?

Of course it was shot down. And here we have another question: what if this recording is a falsification through and through? Then it had to have been prepared somehow? And then disseminated?

That’s when smoke starts to clear, and mirrors – to break.

That’s the problem with tricks.


#14 – An Industry Outlet Confirms Carlos (@spainbuca) as ATC at Borispol Airport in Kiev
Original: EturboNews (http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-) (ETN Global Travel Industry News) – July 17, 2014
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

[...]

Now, somewhere in this thread, there is a post that mentioned or linked to one of these TV series that demonstrate or debunk urban legends as depicted in Hollywood movies.

One of the thing they set to settle was to verify if a bullet shot through the fuselage would end up creating a catastrophic depressurization and rip a plane apart as Hollywood so loves to do.

They went to one of those planes grave yard and sealed old airliners fuselages, pumped pressure into them and proceeded with various experiment to check at what point the "Hollywood effect" would be created... bullet didn't do it...

It took blowing a window with explosives to rip portions of the fuselage apart... but didn't expelled dummies placed inside.

This means it would take a lucky shot to produce what happened to 9M-MRD on its MH017 flight or a well planed disposition of explosive charges, in advance, to ensure its demise at a precise spot in order to generate the prepared MSM screams at Russia.

[Operator]

What surprises me again and again ... is that, same as happened with 9/11, there must be
military experts, intelligence agencies etc. out there that can easily make the same deductions.
How come this isn't widely exposed ? Why is it so quiet ?

[sigma6]

This is more then Tonken Bay, this is a do or die, kiss our arse or take everyone down with us... last play ....

I don't know who this guy is, but I totally agree with everything is he saying 110%
Even people who don't agree with the Main Stream Media, unfortunately their minds have been muddled by it and their responses are tainted.

Political Correctness is a control technique to that impedes you from speaking your mind. Prejudice, ignorant, half baked, if you don't exercise your truth, you will not develop your ability to improve your own short falls. Perfection is not the goal improvement is...

In any event this guy must be taking "super clear thinking drugs" because I didn't know that there was anyone left who knows how to call a spade a spade any more. This should have been a UN speech.

OFFICIAL WARNING - US HAS BEEN OVER INVESTING IN MILITARY HARDWARE FOR HOW LONG? WHY DO THEY NEED MORE MILITARY HARDWARE THEN THE TOP 10 COUNTRIES ON THE PLANET COMBINED? WHY ARE THEY PLANNING A FIRST STRIKE ON THEIR #1 CREDITOR? (CHINA) AND RUSSIA?
Because they are part of a desperate half rat half human criminal cabal that goes back centuries...

NePChnsuMNs

AT 15:10 I didn't know it was only in 1983 (When Blade Runner came out) 90% of the media was controlled by 50 COMPANIES. (I heard in the late 50's it was 250 companies.) TODAY WE ALL KNOW IT IS 6 COMPANIES THAT COLLUDE WITH EACH OTHER. NOT EVEN AN OLIGARCHY!

When you look around you, it is the same old military strategy. The US taking advantage of it's surplus of printed money. Over extended military, Media Lockdown. Blowing up countries stockpiling military hardware, killing people in the name of peace, and when the other side says f*** off. They get "offended". This is the strategy and politics of the sadistic bully. It is so transparent to me... I don't understand how anyone cannot see the truth of it.

And no one is going to win this one. Except the Elites.

1) The take over the world and start their new world order. or

2) They blow up everyone elses ****, then hide in their underground palaces with free energy and stored up food and let everyone else rot. While they plan how to take it over under force in a nuclear contaminated world. Cowards who have learned to exist solely on their ability to manipulate money and politics would rather live in an infested nuclear radioactive wasteland then just admit their own fallibility, their own secret fear at having to live as equals. THAT IS THEIR GREATEST FEAR.

Check out the hidden message to (Legal Researchers) at 20:20 (Hingsight is 20/20)

Accrording to Hans Sponich (?) "NATO Now promotes itself as the Military arm of the UN itself" and is attempting to supercede and replace the UN (like it was just a another Imperialistic global money drain system to begin with) This is RIGHT OUT OF STAR WARS!!! But that's not the kicker. "...The doctrine reserves the right to intervene ANYWHERE in the world, where there is movement of large numbers of PERSONS (HELLOOO!!!) It's new "Partners across the globe" program includes Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Pakistan and Iraq, and leads the occupation of Afghanistan. And now including El Salvador and Columbia puts NATO on ALL 6 continents... " (two countries they destroyed with death squads)

This is nothing short of trying to put the entire planet under military rule.

Ukraine blew it. Maybe Russia was too selfish in sharing, maybe they didn't have enough, But the direction they were going in was and is clearly to raise the standard of living, and involving the BRICS made that obvious it was going to be a shared and therefore transparent process. The US/France/Britain screwed the whole planet and reneged on their trustee responsibility to the planet via the Secretive Satanic Jesuit/Zionist banking Cabal Federal Reserve.

Now they want to hide their dishonour and rewrite history by wiping out an entire generation of conspiracy researchers who have awoken the planet. The Cabal using the US must stop that at all cost. IT IS CLEARLY THE BIGGEST THREAT THEY HAVE FACED in the last 100 years. The US knows it, Russia knows it, Europe knows it. China knows it, Japan knows. Anyone in the know knows it. It's going to be a much needed shift of distribution of disproportionately controlled wealth, or it's going to be WAR. This plays right to Russia's honour, to their security parameter, right to their doorstep. Play the western game, you want it, your going to have to kill us to get it, cause we got these stupid Ukrainians feeding out of our hand.

Even if to some degree they are all in on it.. What difference does it make? The PTB want their death tribute... It's an economic, corporate, accounting, real world debt restructuring. They need at least a billion dead if they even hope to reboot their flawed control system. If the people don't wake up soon. This is a very real potential because is makes sense from their MODEL of economics. Even with the radio-activity.

The option is THEY STEP ASIDE. THEY LOSE CONTROL... It really is getting down to US or THEM. They are giving us no TRUE choice. Honour with death or dishonour and continue being a slave and live in ignorance, your life a lie and an illusion of falsehood.

[KiwiElf]

My hint at Tonkin Bay was based on Bill Cooper's (Behold a Pale Horse), claims that the Vietnamese War and false flag was really about the Elite recovering alien technology, which seems to be the real basis of many other false flag wars (as well as the nuclear "tests" at Bikini Atoll)... just a gut feeling, but I think a similar motive could be involved here - in addition to killing several other birds with one stone, so to speak - (and Iraq & Palestine for that matter). If so, Raiders of the Lost Ark is a good analogy ;)

[ThePythonicCow]

What bugs me with that "expert" report is that he considers that those alledged 30 mm "bullets/shells" entered and exited without doing what they where supposed to do on the lower part of the cockpit found in "Rozsypne," and if his hypothsis of "shot at from both sides" is to hold any water, then the two fighter/assault jets were firing at each other... somehow.
My reading is that the penetrating anti-tank shells went all the way through (apparently an airplane does not have the stopping power of a tank), but the splinter-explosive shells exploded inside the cockpit area.

Also I gather, from in part the graze on the wing, that it might be that both SU 25's were behind MH17, one on each side, firing forward over the wing at the nose of MH17. They would only be firing at each other if they were both flying directly toward the cockpit of MH17, from opposite sides, which seems rather unlikely.

[Hervé]

I found a better shot of that piece of wing (apparently the tail's horizontal stabilizers are made with carbon fibers):


http://yablor.ru/images/main/prodoljaem-razbirat-foto-mh-17-ot-jeroen-akkermans-voprosi-trasologii-b2fea8.jpg?from=http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/53699/53699_original.jpg


... which seem to indicate that shots were fired from the back, left-side but when taking a closer look; the honey-comb foam doesn't look like it's been "pierced" by alleged "grazing shots"... and that would be more in favor of these holes being due to impact with ground...





Then, there is its counterpart, from the other wing, used as evidence that the projectiles came from the front...

Anyway, I'll keep lookin'...

[Hervé]

Témoignage de Michael Bociurkiw, un des premier experts de l’OSCE sur le site du MH 17 (http://www.les-crises.fr/ukraine-en-vrac-30-07/)

[Among the first OSCE experts on MH17 crash site, Michael Bociurkiw's testimony]

Il dit avoir vu des impacts ressemblant à des traces de mitraillage… (cf à 6’00 sur la vidéo (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007)), Source : CBC.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007)

[He mentions having seen impacts looking like machine-gun holes ... (at ~ 06:00 in the video) {video (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007) not available anymore, at least from France, when posting}]


http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-1.jpg (http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-1.jpg)



http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-2.jpg (http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-2.jpg)



http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-3.jpg (http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mitraillage-3.jpg)


Lire aussi ici un bon papier d’Agoravox, très précis sur les questions (http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/international/article/mh17-preuve-de-canonnage-et-155019), tout comme celui de Jacques Sapir (http://russeurope.hypotheses.org/2591).

***************************************************************

Well, looks like those pieces have been machine-gunned from inside... to me, anyway.

[Cidersomerset]

This interesting...........Not space lasers but aircraft lasers...

Lasers may allow civilian airliners to fend off missiles

hJJ4ORDkCq4


Published on 31 Jul 2014


With the recent downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, many are
once again questioning what can be done to protect civilian aircraft
from missiles and other projectiles. The idea gaining the most traction
is equipping airliners with anti-missile defense systems mounted on
the belly of the crafts. Using lasers, the systems would lock onto
incoming projectiles and scramble their electronics, causing them to
explode a safe distance from the plane. RT’s Manila Chan takes a look
at the evolving technology and its implementation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Army looks at 3D printing warheads

MVWKOy7yvQE

Published on 30 Jul 2014


3D printing may soon revolutionize warfare. The Army is working on a project
to “print” warheads, modernizing the manufacturing process of the complex
devices that have not dramatically changed since WWII. Allowing for intricate
designs to control “detonation physics,” blasts radiuses and other aspects of
the explosive capsules can be tailor-made for specific circumstances. RT’s
Meghan Lopez takes a look at the innovative plans


====================================================


Fractured Lives: Stories of those fleeing Ukraine's war


G65eGPYznI8

Published on 31 Jul 2014


As fighting in E. Ukraine continues to escalate, over a thousand people have taken
shelter in a refugee camp across the Russian border in Gukovo. RT’s Roman
Kosarev listens to stories of those, who may have to seek a fresh start, away from
the violence.

[Cidersomerset]

Snowden’s asylum in Russia expires.....interesting timing.

JHKIFXFB6Hg

Published on 31 Jul 2014


Whistleblower Edward Snowden’s asylum in Russia is set to expire Thursday,
and his future remains in question as the country considers his renewal request.
Fearing a return to the US would result in imprisonment and a sham trial, Snowden’s
supporters argue the only way he would consider returning to his home country is if
the government drops the espionage charges against him. RT’s Lindsay France takes
a look at the Snowden saga and what may be next.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



EU Raises the Stakes: New sanctions target Russia's biggest banks

tZTTiGz6jZI

Published on 1 Aug 2014


The European Union has imposed sectorial sanctions on five Russian banks,
including the country’s biggest, Sberbank, as part of economic steps that
Europe, along with the US, have taken against Moscow over the crisis in Ukraine.
RT’s Peter Oliver reports. READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/5k7mmf


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Putin To Betray, Sell Out Separatists In Merkel Deal?

Friday 1st August 2014 at 09:16 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/v2web-merkel-putin-gettyv3.jpg


‘Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful
solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela
Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of
Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic
boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the
international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its
annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.’

Read more: Putin To Betray, Sell Out Separatists In Merkel Deal?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/land-for-gas-secret-german-deal-could-end-ukraine-crisis-9638764.html

[Cidersomerset]

Kiev satellite images 'fake', taken days after MH17 crash - Russian Def Min

fYZJYhVhw2s

Published on 1 Aug 2014


This latest punitive measures heaped on Russia follow the downing of Malaysian flight
MH17 a fortnight ago. It's still unclear exactly what caused the plane to crash killing all
298 on board. Russia was first to provide some evidence into what may have happened,
but Kiev claimed Moscow's satellite images were fabricated and released their own photos.
Russia's Defence Ministry now says Kiev's evidence is fake.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kiev may seek to remove Malaysia plane crash evidence: Russia

Friday 1st August 2014 at 05:47 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/373503_Ukraine-crash.jpg


‘Russia’s ambassador to the United Nations (UN) says Ukrainian authorities may be seeking to
“destroy evidence” that would implicate their role in the crash of a Malaysia Airlines plane in Ukraine.

Speaking at the UN headquarters in New York on Wednesday, Vitaly Churkin said that Ukrainian
President Petro Poroshenko pledged a ceasefire in the disaster area, “but this promise was
immediately broken, while Ukrainian officials have publicly announced a new task – to cleanse
of the militias and take control of this territory.”

Churkin further expressing concerns over the ongoing military operation in east Ukraine.’

Read more: Kiev may seek to remove Malaysia plane crash evidence: Russia

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/31/373503/kiev-may-seek-to-remove-crash-evidence/

===============================================================


Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

Friday 1st August 2014 at 09:19 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1406651044_110-300x200.jpg


‘Ukraine’s Kiev-based regime has deployed OTR-21 Tochka ballistic missiles
also known as SS-21 “Scarabs,” against the people of eastern Ukraine. The
missiles measure 6.4 meters in length and carry warheads of up to 454 kg,
making them without a doubt a weapon of mass destruction (WMD). Their
use was revealed by a CNN report released just as US President Barack
Obama announced that the US and EU would be issuing more sanctions
against Russia. C

N revealed that,“there were reports that Ukraine’s government in the past
48 hours used short-range ballistic missiles against the rebels, three U.S.
officials told CNN. The weapons have a range of about 50 miles (80 kilometers)
and pack up to 1,000-pound (454-kilogram) warheads.”

CNN would also claim, “another of the U.S. officials said using the missiles is
“an escalation, but Ukraine has a right to defend itself.”’

Read more: Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-deploys-wmds-against-eastern-ukraine/5394185

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

1 August 2014 Last updated at 20:03

Ukraine MH17: Air crash team finds human remains

A team of 70 Dutch and Australian forensic experts has found human remains at
the site of the flight MH17 crash in east Ukraine.

They made their discovery on their first full day of searching at the site, an area of
some 35 sq km (13.5 sq miles) inside the conflict zone.

Local search parties found 227 of the 298 victims earlier and they were flown to the
Netherlands for identification.

Presidents Obama and Putin discussed the crisis by telephone on Friday.

The US president told his Russian counterpart that he was "deeply concerned" over
his continuing support for pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine.

Both leaders did, however, agree that continuing fighting in Ukraine was not in the
interests of either country, the Kremlin said.

In the latest violence, 10 Ukrainian soldiers were killed near the MH17 crash site on Thursday.

The fighting between government troops and pro-Russian separatist rebels had
previously prevented the investigators reaching the area.

A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner came down on 17 July with the loss of all
298 passengers and crew, while flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.



OSCE spokesman at crash site

After Ukraine's military declared a unilateral one-day suspension of operations
against the rebels in Donetsk region on Thursday, an exploratory visit was made by
the forensic experts, followed by the full deployment on Friday.


Read more....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28599315

[heyokah]

07/31/2014 - Vancouver, BC

In an ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, independent scientist Leuren Moret exposes both the methodology and motives of the false flag operation Malaysian Airlines MH17 as a highly coordinated but failed Jesuit false flag operation that used Ukrainian air traffic control on July 17, 2014 to divert flight MH17 over war zone Donetsk, while MH17 by Ukrainian air force interceptor that used an air to air missile to destroy one of MH17’s two engines.
As MH17 made a sharp left turn trying to stabilize, a Ukrainian BUK missile deployed two days earlier in the Donetsk area completed shooting MH17 down.
Immediately NATO controlled media began to blame Putin and Russian controlled rebels in the Ukraine.
On July 22, 2014, Russia released the full radar and other data that evidenced the above scenario as true.

The basic methodology of MH17 false flag is based on Operation Northwoods, a planned 1962 false flag proposed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US Military which planned to shoot down civilian airliners over the USA, blame the Cuban Air Force, and provide a false pretext for a US invasion of Cuba.
Then President John F. Kennedy rejected the plan

Motives for MH17 False Flag

In her interview, Leuren Moret details the major motives for the flase flag, starting with the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines MH370 and MH17 as the bookends of the US government's "pivot to Asia".

The MH17 false flag was designed to:

•Set up Valdimir Putin as the patsy to the flase flag and brand Putin as an amoral aggressor;

•Attack and undermine a contemporary meeting of BRICS leaders in Brasilia after the World Cup to set up the BRICS central bank as a competitor to the US dollar;

•Divert public attention from the ongoing Israeli invasion of Gaza;

•Serve as part of a trigger-mechanism to a humanocidal WWIII, part of the Illuminati depopulation policy to reduce world population to as low as 500 million from 7 billion.

•By targeting Malaysia Airlines, warn other Asian nations against charting an independent economic course as Malaysia has done, and serving payback for the war crimes judgments against Illuminati nations United States and Israel by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwg7w8IE3hY

Report on MH17 False Flag (27 pages)

http://exopolitics.blogs.com/peaceinspace/2014/07/leuren-moret-mh17-like-mh370-was-failed-jesuit-false-flag-using-2-ukrainian-missiles-to-set-up-putin.html

****

Found this video on this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73433-Leuren-Moret-MH17-is-Jesuit-false-flag-to-undermine-Putin-BRICS-protect-Israel-spark-WWIII

Think it belongs here>

[Billy]

What bugs me with that "expert" report is that he considers that those alledged 30 mm "bullets/shells" entered and exited without doing what they where supposed to do on the lower part of the cockpit found in "Rozsypne," and if his hypothsis of "shot at from both sides" is to hold any water, then the two fighter/assault jets were firing at each other... somehow.
My reading is that the penetrating anti-tank shells went all the way through (apparently an airplane does not have the stopping power of a tank), but the splinter-explosive shells exploded inside the cockpit area.

Also I gather, from in part the graze on the wing, that it might be that both SU 25's were behind MH17, one on each side, firing forward over the wing at the nose of MH17. They would only be firing at each other if they were both flying directly toward the cockpit of MH17, from opposite sides, which seems rather unlikely.

I agree with Paul here. Two Jets fired at the cockpit from the rear. Some of the Anti Tank shells enter one side and exit the other, From both sides. Some explode inside the cockpit as the article describes. Maybe this was after hitting one engine then they panicked as the plane changed course.

Then it was finished off when it descended either from a ground missile or a bomb placed inside the plane before hand.

I doubt we will ever know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And like operator said. Why is it so quiet, the pilots bodies should be quite telling, No report from the black boxes as yet, I think Russia should have the chance to investigate the black boxes considering they are being blamed with no evidence, after Malaysia has had their chance. And no ID has come from Holland or Relatives of the bodies delivered there last week.


From Peter Haisenko an expert in aviation who closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.


http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/





So what could have happened? Russia recently published radar recordings, that confirm at least one Ukrainian SU 25 in close proximity to MH 017. This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017.

And what has happened to poor Carlos. Whose Twitter account was closed after he posted his report.


The silence is deafening.

Peace

[Sophocles]

Just found this video at liveleak: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca0_1406907239

Text:

"What the heck is this!!!
They saying it is drone, but it more look like some kind cruise missile rocket!"

[jerry]

MH-17 Was In Fact The ‘Lost’ Flight MH-370
http://asheepnomore.net/2014/07/26/heres-proof-mh-17-fact-lost-flight-mh-370/

[Hervé]

:confused:

Same piece of wing to "prove" shrapnel came from opposite directions...

:wacko:


http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1406019829/799/10297799.jpg
@Justin_Br0nk: 'PROOF': Shrapnel damage suggests an SA-11 proximity frag warhead may have exploded slightly below and ahead of #MH17's port wing, Royal United Services Institute analyst Justin Bronk said.

:mmph:

http://yablor.ru/images/main/prodoljaem-razbirat-foto-mh-17-ot-jeroen-akkermans-voprosi-trasologii-b2fea8.jpg?from=http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/53699/53699_original.jpg


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/flickr1.jpg
Jeroen Akkermans/RTL-4 Nieuws/Netherlands
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/
The remains of the left wingtip, with visible signs of what appear to be shrapnel or puncture damage, sits severed from the rest of the wings, which fell and burned more than a half mile away.





... together with an engine which broke up at high altitude as well:


http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/IMG_0688.jpg
Alexander Kolyandr/The Wall Street Journal
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/
Pieces of the under-wing pod that holds the right Rolls-Royce Trent 800 engine were found nearly 4.7 miles from Hrabove, where both engines were found. Photos of debris show the broken remains of the Rolls-Royce logo and indications of piercing damage.



So, both engines hit the ground with the bulk of the plane at the main crash site but the rest broke off that central part to the point of finding a pilot seat lost in some field:


https://fwtinw.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pLPsscWpXZ6u69CFzdKDtZLuWOGhsKPwUaBwLGr730V5IFH1j7W5RawLUzurDMoD9c1dTHF_K_PFBHfPxZT3wXzjgbmnu5FGwD TvpIr-H5iU/MH-17-390.jpg?psid=1


A pilot seat at the crash site of MH17. Photo: Kate Geraghty (http://www.smh.com.au/world/new-poll-finds-most-russians-believe-ukraine-shot-down-flight-mh17-20140731-zyqye.html)



What's left is either jet fighters or bomb... or both.










¤=[Post Update]=¤


Just found this video at liveleak: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca0_1406907239

Text:

"What the heck is this!!!
They saying it is drone, but it more look like some kind cruise missile rocket!"

If you just chek the update under the video, it specifies:


Update:
Credit go to:Peter Gibons and Ethicon!
It is Tupolev_Tu-143
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-143

[sigma6]

Kiev satellite pics FAKE
fYZJYhVhw2s

[Cidersomerset]

An article about the coincidences or not of 'Numerology' in recent events.....


new Saturday 2nd August 2014 at 06:34 By david-icke

https://store.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/logo_store.png


Air Algerie AH5017, Air France 447, Malaysian MH370 and MH17: Vanishing Aircraft, ‘Numerology’, and the Global Elite



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mh17-gros-plan-400x206.jpg



‘We have been told by much of Western MSM that Air Algerie flight 5017 (hereinafter AH 5017)
and its 117 passengers (according to the airline) lost contact with the ground and subsequently
crashed in Mali on 7/24due to heavy weather.

A simple, tidy story that; and for all one knows the MSM soporific might even be true.

And yet, true to the times, meaningful questions remain.’


Via CNN on 7/24 we have:


“1:17 a.m. local time, Air Algerie Flight 5017 left Ouagadougou in Burkina Faso bound for Algiers.
It was supposed to be a four-hour overnight flight but about 50 minutes of takeoff, it disappeared
from radar over Mali close to a zone of ongoing conflict between Islamist rebels and the government.”

The Guardian chimed in on 7/29 with:


Radar recordings show the plane’s last contact at 1.47am local time. A witness reported seeing a
ball of flame in the crash area at about 1.50am, suggesting the tragedy happened in minutes.

One witness said it was “as if a bomb had fallen” on the desert, and that the plane had hit the
ground at a steep angle and at full speed, ruling out any attempt at an emergency landing.

Police investigators and gendarmes at the scene say the plane was “pulverised” and they have
found no bodies. Even finding traces of the victims – who included one Briton and 54 French
people, including entire families – is proving a challenge, with stifling heat alternating with
torrential rain in a remote area.

The Guardian’s reportage that the plane was pulverized echoed Le Monde’s7/26 assertion that
the wreckage was indicative of disintegration.

Matters are so compromised with respect to the status of bodily evidence that France now thinks
it could take from three to five months for forensic processes to produce the first identifications.

And then we have the facts that it took hours for airline and government officials to make AH
5017’s disappearance public, there were 51 French passengers, and France, declaring victory,
had very recently terminated Operation Serval (a counterterrorism adventure in Mali).

Finally, we have the pending performance on a France/Russia deal whereby Russia is to receive
delivery of two Mistral warships. Maybe certain elitist elements would rather see France breach
the contract?

Might the demise of AH 5017 be attributable to an act of terror, and might there be additional
links to the vanishing aircraft of MH 17, MH 370, and veryconceivably even Air France 447?
Newsweek on AH 5017:


“General Gilbert Diendere, head of Burkina Faso’s crisis cell, said radar data showed that the
plane appeared to try to fly around the bad weather before reverting to its initial course, which
took it back into the eye of the storm.

“Perhaps the pilot thought that he had completely avoided it and wanted to return to the original
route,” Diendere said, according to the website of French radio RFI. “The accident took place
while the plane performed this maneuver.”

Diendere said the last contact with the plane at its altitude of 10,000 meters was at 0147 GMT
and the crash was reported by witnesses to have taken place at 0150.


“That means that (plane) fell from an altitude of 10,000 meters to zero in about three minutes,
which is a steep fall given the size of the plane,” he added.”

10,000 meters is just about 33,000 feet, so, if the preceding sentence is true, AH 5017 lost
altitude at an average of 11,000 feet per minute before being ostensibly destroyed.

The same thing happened to Air France 447.

A quick refresher on that flight from the Huffington Post:


“On the evening of May 31, 2009 [it was in the early hours of 6/1/2009 that the flight went
missing], 216 passengers and 12 crew members boarded an Air France Airbus 330 at Antonio
Carlos Jobim International Airport in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The flight, Air France 447, departed
at 7.29 p.m. local time for a scheduled 11-hour trip to Paris. It never arrived. At 7 o’clock the
next morning, when the aircraft failed to appear on the radar screens of air traffic controllers
in Europe, Air France began to worry and contacted civil aviation authorities. By 11 a.m., they
concluded that AF447 had gone missing somewhere over the vast emptiness of the South Atlantic.

How, in the age of satellite navigation and instantaneous global communication, could a
state-of-the art airliner simply vanish? It was a mystery that lasted for two years.”

Air France 447, like MH 370, MH 17, and AH 5017 also “vanished without a word from the crew.
” Perhaps, then, the official report regarding Air France 447, which explained the affair in terms
of heavy weather, a high altitude stall, and pilot error also happens to more or less describe what
occurred with AH 5017?

Then again, it was reported regarding Air France 447 that:


“Two pilots of an Air Comet flight from Lima to Lisbon saw a bright flash of light in the area where Flight
447 went down, the Madrid-based airline told CNN. The pilots have turned in their report to authorities.

“Suddenly, we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, which followed a descending
and vertical trajectory and which broke up in six seconds,” the captain wrote in the report.

The flash of light contributes to the theory that an explosion is what brought down Flight 447, which
was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.”

To be sure, these reports have gone down the memory hole.

Intrepid readers will have little difficulty locating other disturbing claims about Flight 447, but to be honest
it’s difficult to decisively separate mere rumors from plausible alternative accounts.

Be that as it may, what follows may amount to nothing more than a mirage of coincidences (some of them
possibly forced)—but it might also suggest something quite significant.

“Numerology”

An earlier contribution to Global Research on the subject of MH 17 stated:


Next, here are a few other curious tidbits. The flight 17 crash shares an anniversary with the demise of
TWA 800, which AT’s own Jack Cashill has compellingly argued was, in fact, brought down by a missile
on July 17, 1996 and subsequently covered up by the US government. And, the maiden flight of flight
17 occurred in 1997 on the date of, you guessed it, July 17.

[Moreover Russia's last ruling monarch of the Romanov family Tsar Nicholas II, together with his wife
Tsarina Alexandra and their five children Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei were executed on
17 July 1918. Subliminal message to Putin? No doubt it's another "coincidence"]

So “17s” are everywhere. To be sure, though, each of the items in the last paragraph is easily ranged
under the heading “coincidence.”

With respect to AH 5017, we obviously encounter “17” again in the number of the flight. And, we have
the fact that the flight left at 1:17 AM. Plus, some early reports indicated 117 passengers.

In a related vein, as previous quotes show, “7s” and “11s” seem to reverberate around facts pertaining
to Air France 447 and AH 5017. And, MH 370 was lost on 3/7/2014 at 17:20 UTC.

Of course, many other numerical facts connected with the three flights have nothing to do with 7s, 11s, or 17s.

It is unquestionably easy to get carried away with this sort of thing; one very serious problem is that in
the absence of a consistently applied, rationally based rule for combining digits and assigning times, it is
easy to mold phenomena so as to reach conspiratorial conclusions when nothing obtains other than
coincidence (and perhaps not even that).

In short, we do not want to consume witches’ brews or magicians’ potions; instead, we should ask whether
there might be scientifically sensible reasons as to why intelligence enterprises and their associates might
want to play numerological games.

Rare events and events that are meaningfully singular in their description (such as the vanishing of MH 370)
are next to impossible to predict statistically, especially if one is attempting to predict the precise time, date,
and place of occurrence (almost by definition there’s not enough data to support valid statistical analyses).
It is just such “black swan” events, though, that often exert the greatest, and most reverberating, impacts
on global dynamics. Because such events are difficult to predict even with a great deal of information in hand,
they are difficult to prevent—even with a tremendous amount of information.

With these thoughts in mind, consider that when singular, rare events such as plane vanishings that receive
intensive coverage take place, the threshold geopolitical question is really whether the occurrence was
accidental or in some way planned. It is here that “numerological” factors may come into play. It may be
that the numerological properties of events can function as ways of indicating human agency, even though
such agency will, of necessity, be invisible to algorithms and associated databases. If human consciousness,
on the basis of ironically non-quantifiable meaning, considers an event to be too significant to perfunctorily
ascribe to an accident, it will react accordingly even if the “data” and surface authorities (such as certain
visible bureaucrats and news anchors with far more proximate connections to the public) say otherwise.

If these ruminations are accurate, it may be that the degree of brazenness of “numerological” ties functions
as a measure of the danger we confront. Surface authority, in spite of its nearly universal mathematical
illiteracy, has been successfully conditioned to believe that the only measures of scientific significance are
those that can be quantified. Therefore, it is blind to many potential indications of agency that could
indicate covert conflict.

However, had a flight numbered 7077 crashed on 7/7/2014 after having disappeared from radar at
7:07 PM, even surface authorities might have been forced to acknowledge design—even if they were
told in so many terms by deep authority that “Big Data” could not back it up. Since even the dimwits
of surface authority would be talking design, the risk of overt hot war would rise substantially. It is for
reasons such as these that the rather glaring 17s surrounding MH 17 are unsettling.

The Global Elite

Now consider these utterly bizarre remarks made by none other than IMF chief Christine Lagarde at a
1/15/2014 National Press Club speech:


“Now, I’m going to test your numerology skills by asking you to think about the magic seven, okay?
Most of you will know that seven is quite a number in all sorts of themes, religions. And I’m sure that
you can compress numbers as well. So if we think about 2014, all right, I’m just giving you 2014, you
drop the zero, 14, two times 7. Okay,that’s just by way of example, and we’re going to carry on.
(Laughter) So 2014 will be a milestone and hopefully a magic year in many respects. It will mark
the hundredth anniversary of the First World War back in 1914. It will note the 70thanniversary,
drop the zero, seven– of the Breton Woods conference that actually gave birth to the IMF. And it
will be the 25th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, 25th, okay. It will also mark the seventh
anniversary of the financial market jitters that quickly turned into the greatest global economic
calamity since the Great Depression. The crisis still lingers. Yet, optimism is in the air. We’ve left
the deep freeze behind us and the horizon looks just a bit brighter. So my hope and my wish for
2014 is that after those seven miserable years, weak and fragile, we have seven strong years.
I don’t know whether the G7 will have anything to do with it, or whether it will be the G20. I certainly
hope that the IMF will have something to do with it.”

Can anyone recall the last time a global elitist of the stature of Lagarde made such bombastic
reference to numerological notions during a speech, whether “jokingly” or not? That someone
like her would even speak in such terms is decidedly odd—conceivably even
unprecedented—irrespective of the particulars.

Aside from the very audacity of even mentioning numerology, the key 1/15/2014 language
may very well be the G7/G20 wording; Lagarde states the alternative pretty starkly in terms
of either/or but not both—and the G20 does not include Russia.

Dr. Jason Kissner is Associate Professor of Criminology at California State University. Dr. Kissner’s
research on gangs and self-control has appeared in academic journals. His current empirical
research interests include active shootings. You can reach him atcrimprof2010@hotmail.com.



Read more: Air Algerie AH5017, Air France 447, Malaysian MH370 and MH17: Vanishing Aircraft,
'Numerology', and the Global Elite

http://www.globalresearch.ca/air-algerie-ah5017-air-france-447-malaysian-mh370-and-mh17-vanishing-aircraft-numerology-and-the-global-elite/5394526

[Hervé]

Anyone having any idea if this is a piece of a B-777 and if so, which part?

... KiwiElf?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NqbcJDO2PQc/U9T30y76ehI/AAAAAAAAH34/Q98R4jubxhs/s1600/5.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YUKNSWwYR7U/U9T35sjxpLI/AAAAAAAAH4A/LIzchBbBzBA/s1600/2.jpg
http://vilaghelyzete.blogspot.fr/2014/07/lovedekek-utotte-nyomok-malaj.html



Looks more like a rusted car's engine hood to me... but... 'been known to be wrong...

[heyokah]

I think I might post this one here as well. (from this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who/page43))

****

07/31/2014 - Vancouver, BC

In an ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, independent scientist Leuren Moret exposes both the methodology and motives of the false flag operation Malaysian Airlines MH17 as a highly coordinated but failed Jesuit false flag operation that used Ukrainian air traffic control on July 17, 2014 to divert flight MH17 over war zone Donetsk, while MH17 by Ukrainian air force interceptor that used an air to air missile to destroy one of MH17’s two engines.
As MH17 made a sharp left turn trying to stabilize, a Ukrainian BUK missile deployed two days earlier in the Donetsk area completed shooting MH17 down.
Immediately NATO controlled media began to blame Putin and Russian controlled rebels in the Ukraine.
On July 22, 2014, Russia released the full radar and other data that evidenced the above scenario as true.

The basic methodology of MH17 false flag is based on Operation Northwoods, a planned 1962 false flag proposed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US Military which planned to shoot down civilian airliners over the USA, blame the Cuban Air Force, and provide a false pretext for a US invasion of Cuba.
Then President John F. Kennedy rejected the plan

Motives for MH17 False Flag

In her interview, Leuren Moret details the major motives for the flase flag, starting with the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines MH370 and MH17 as the bookends of the US government's "pivot to Asia".

The MH17 false flag was designed to:

•Set up Valdimir Putin as the patsy to the flase flag and brand Putin as an amoral aggressor;

•Attack and undermine a contemporary meeting of BRICS leaders in Brasilia after the World Cup to set up the BRICS central bank as a competitor to the US dollar;

•Divert public attention from the ongoing Israeli invasion of Gaza;

•Serve as part of a trigger-mechanism to a humanocidal WWIII, part of the Illuminati depopulation policy to reduce world population to as low as 500 million from 7 billion.

•By targeting Malaysia Airlines, warn other Asian nations against charting an independent economic course as Malaysia has done, and serving payback for the war crimes judgments against Illuminati nations United States and Israel by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwg7w8IE3hY

Report on MH17 False Flag (27 pages)

http://exopolitics.blogs.com/peaceinspace/2014/07/leuren-moret-mh17-like-mh370-was-failed-jesuit-false-flag-using-2-ukrainian-missiles-to-set-up-putin.html

[Operator]

Anyone having any idea if this is a piece of a B-777 and if so, which part?

... KiwiElf?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NqbcJDO2PQc/U9T30y76ehI/AAAAAAAAH34/Q98R4jubxhs/s1600/5.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YUKNSWwYR7U/U9T35sjxpLI/AAAAAAAAH4A/LIzchBbBzBA/s1600/2.jpg
http://vilaghelyzete.blogspot.fr/2014/07/lovedekek-utotte-nyomok-malaj.html



Looks more like a rusted car's engine hood to me... but... 'been known to be wrong...





No, certainly not a car hood ... it's not painted. The pictures seem to be different, not only zoomed in.
In the most detailed picture the metal is visible all around the black foam or rubber blocks.
So somebody messed with that evidence (if it is from the crash).

If it is from the plane I guess that it is from the galley. There is a lot of stainless steel there.
The 2 beams look weird, as if they were factory cut by a machine that way.

[Hervé]

[...]

No, certainly not a car hood ... it's not painted. The pictures seem to be different, not only zoomed in.
In the most detailed picture the metal is visible all around the black foam or rubber blocks.
So somebody messed with that evidence (if it is from the crash).

If it is from the plane I guess that it is from the galley. There is a lot of stainless steel there.
The 2 beams look weird, as if they were factory cut by a machine that way.

The way I looked at it was :

Top grey-blue paint, blue-green undercoat/primer visible via scratches of top coat, rusted darker patches underneath it all... might possibly be carbon fiber though...

If from the crash, then that guy with the diamond circular saw has been busy :)

[SilentFeathers]

Many of these holes I've seen in the several photos posted in this thread almost look to me as if they are "bullet holes", such as 30 or 50 cal., but I am no expert. (those fighter jets are surely equipped with machine guns are they not?) Some holes and tears look to be from shrapnel. Looks as if this thing may have went through a turkey shoot and possibly a missile strike, and somehow catastrophically exploded in mid air like flight 103 did, perhaps by an onboard bomb or being torn open by machine gun fire and possibly also a missile....or by all three causes at the approx. same time. Either way, in my opinion, this flight was never meant to reach it's intended destination.

I'm also figuring no one will ever know what really happened....

[Cidersomerset]

Press Free-doomed: RT’s video agency producer kicked out of Ukraine

mN49AXJhonk

Published on 2 Aug 2014


A producer for RT’s RUPTLY video agency has been ordered to leave Ukraine
after local authorizes learned that she holds both American and Russian citizenships.
The journalist says she has been forced out of the country because of her “Russian passport”.
READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/pwe0x4


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A very good interview talking about media manipulation and how young
journalists that come out of university full of dreams, soon become
another casualty to the mainstream agendas......


Going Underground: John Pilger talks Gaza, Ukraine & Western media bias


41YTAZHIWN8

Published on 2 Aug 2014


Afshin Rattansi goes underground with filmmaker and author John Pilger
as he challenges Western mainstream media spin. He warns that ‘to be
informed by it is not an option’ because of censorship, omission and
distortion of the facts. Whilst other stories overtake it, we find out the
death toll in Libya is still rising. We discover why illegal immigrants were
prevented from smuggling themselves OUT of Britain. We look at whether
Cameron is privatising the NHS by selling it to doctors and nurses. And as
the IDF offensive on Gaza continues, are media attitudes softening whilst
those of the government harden?

===================================================


Shelling, lack of water, power cuts: E.Ukraine faces humanitarian catastrophe

_hye7LWRkYY

Published on 2 Aug 2014


The Ukrainian army is pressing on with its advance on the capitals of two self-
proclaimed republics in the east of the country. Towns and villages in the regions
are the scenes of constant shelling and battles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘Wrong time, altered images’: Moscow slams Kiev’s MH17 satellite data

d5_FdBqvCcQ

Published on 1 Aug 2014


Satellite images Kiev published as ‘proof’ it didn’t deploy anti-aircraft batteries
around the crash site of Malaysia Airlines carry altered timestamps and are from
days after the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Defense Ministry has revealed. Russian
Ambassador to the United Nations accused Ukrainian officials of destroying the
evidence that would expose their involvement in shooting down the Boeing 777. RT’s Irina Galushko takes a look at the competing claims of who brought down the
plane

[Operator]

Many of these holes I've seen in the several photos posted in this thread almost look to me as if they are "bullet holes", such as 30 or 50 cal., but I am no expert.
...


Difficult to estimate its size but looks like a bullet hole to me, definitely bigger than 9 mm.
It looks like it came from a anti-clockwise rifled barrel.

This part must have been inside the plane ... if it was shot from outside then this is the
2nd or 3rd penetration.

[Hervé]

Message from an angry ghost?


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5596/14515419567_2e8bcfa408_b.jpg

[KiwiElf]

Anyone having any idea if this is a piece of a B-777 and if so, which part?

... KiwiElf?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NqbcJDO2PQc/U9T30y76ehI/AAAAAAAAH34/Q98R4jubxhs/s1600/5.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YUKNSWwYR7U/U9T35sjxpLI/AAAAAAAAH4A/LIzchBbBzBA/s1600/2.jpg
http://vilaghelyzete.blogspot.fr/2014/07/lovedekek-utotte-nyomok-malaj.html



Looks more like a rusted car's engine hood to me... but... 'been known to be wrong...





Absolutely no idea - certainly not an external piece anyways :confused:

[Operator]

Message from an angry ghost?


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5596/14515419567_2e8bcfa408_b.jpg

This photo doesn't look and especially 'feel' real to me ...
How come the hairbrush is broken and the rest seems pretty much unscathed ?
Also why are there twigs over the debris ? The plastic blue part on the right doesn't seem all
that heavy but is not naturally 'buried' down those twigs. Weird ...

[Hervé]

[...]

This photo doesn't look and especially 'feel' real to me ...
How come the hairbrush is broken and the rest seems pretty much unscathed ?
Also why are there twigs over the debris ? The plastic blue part on the right doesn't seem all that heavy but is not naturally 'buried' down those twigs. Weird ...

I can understand that...

The picture is a close-up from this scene taken 2014-07-20:


http://s1.radikale.ru/uploads/2014/7/21/3ef4b1a4ee6d6e4205fdb20640d93fa0-full.png
.. at the very top, just right of center.

See here for high resolution picture of the scene: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14701570642/in/photostream/ and if you check it you'll see a bunch of money still there...
(might have to download the hi-rez to see it)



PS: I guess that quite a few people have been walking around that scene since the crash.

[Operator]

...
See here for high resolution picture of the scene: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14701570642/in/photostream/ and if you check it you'll see a bunch of money still there...
(might have to download the hi-rez to see it)
...


I did download the hires photo ... I was wondering what all that money was doing between
all that games stuff. It's not money but playing cards ... :yo:

P.S. Probably the reason why it still there ... :madgrin:

[Cidersomerset]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


2 August 2014 Last updated at 15:34

Ukraine crisis: New fighting hampers MH17 crash .

UjQ3GUydwr8



The BBC's Jonathan Beale joins investigators at the MH17 crash site


Fresh fighting in eastern Ukraine has forced an international forensics team to halt
operations in part of the vast crash site of Malaysian flight MH17.

Observers had to withdraw from one village when they heard artillery fire although
work is still continuing across much of the area.

MH17 went down on 17 July with the loss of all 298 passengers and crew.

The US and Ukraine say pro-Russian rebels probably shot down the jet with a
missile but rebels deny the claim.

Sniffer dogs

Alexander Hug, the deputy chief monitor with the Ukraine mission of the
Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), told Agence France-
Presse a visit to the village of Petropavlivka had been agreed with the rebels and
Ukrainian forces.

However, he said: "We heard at a distance of approximately two kilometres
incoming artillery from where we were and that was too close to continue."

However, the BBC's Jonathan Beale, at the crash scene, says there has been no
fighting at the main site and the experts have been able to do their work.

PYqjEXppqwI

The investigators released footage from their first full day of searching at the crash site

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76702000/jpg/_76702198_osce_convoy.jpg

Bridge en route to crash site Pro-Russian rebels have blown bridges along the route
to the crash site, to slow any advance by Ukrainian forces

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76700000/jpg/_76700005_anpuzn65.jpg

Ukrainian forces outside the eastern Ukrainian village of Nikishyne, Donetsk region,
1 Aug Neither Ukrainian forces nor rebels are in full control of the crash site


About 70 Dutch and Australian experts are scouring a site of some 20 sq km.

A spokesman for the Dutch team said it was still focusing on searching for human
remains, although security is also a key issue.

Neither the rebels nor Ukrainian forces are in full control of the site.

The Dutch team has flown in from the Netherlands two dogs trained to search for
human remains and another two specialist dogs are on their way from Belgium.

Our correspondent says the Australian team also has specialist equipment - a mini-
drone fitted with a camera - but it has not yet been given permission by the rebels
to fly it.

The US and Ukraine say pro-Russian rebels probably shot down the plane with a
missile supplied from Russia.

The rebels say it could have been brought down by a Ukrainian fighter jet.

Most of those who died were Dutch nationals.

More than 220 coffins have now been sent back to the Netherlands.

'Highly disciplined'

Separately, a senior adviser to the rebels confirmed that extrajudicial killings had
been carried out in eastern Ukraine "to prevent chaos".

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76695000/gif/_76695438_druztwo.gif

Igor Druz Mr Druz said Ukraine's government was a "terrorist" organisation

Igor Druz told the BBC such "executions" sent an important signal to the rest of the rebel forces.

Mr Druz told the BBC: "On several occasions, in a state of emergency, we have
carried out executions by shooting to prevent chaos. As a result, our troops, the
ones who have pulled out of Sloviansk, are highly disciplined."

Sloviansk was a key rebel stronghold before it was recaptured last month by
Ukrainian government forces.


Analysis: Dina Newman, BBC News, Donetsk

Igor Druz is adviser to the rebels' military commander Igor Strelkov, and a senior
spokesman for the rebel-held territories of Donetsk region. He is in charge of the
ideology of the eastern Ukrainian rebel movement. In an interview with the BBC in
Donetsk he outlined his vision of the so-called 'state of Novorossia' they hope to
build here.

He says he is a strong supporter of Orthodox Christian morality and family values,
and opposed to homosexuality. He hopes to legalise death penalty for the most
serious crimes and he is sure that most rebels will support him in this initiative.


Mr Druz said the rebels wanted to establish a socially responsible state that would
protect Christian values.

He also said the Ukrainian government was "totally illegitimate".

Mr Druz said: "These people have come to power by committing murders and
staging an armed coup. Now they are committing war crimes. They are bombing
our cities. They shell cities and then blame it on our fighters. This is nonsense."

More than 1,500 people are believed to have been killed in the conflict which
erupted in east Ukraine in April, after rebels declared independence from the new
government in Kiev.

Russia, which annexed Ukraine's Crimea region in March, has been accused of
arming the rebels and has been targeted by US and EU sanctions. Russia denies the accusations.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76671000/gif/_76671157_ukraine_rebel_control_624_latest(1).gif


BBC map


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28622083

[SilentFeathers]

Dahboo must be reading this thread, he just made a video about the wreckage being riddled with 30mm bullet holes.....those Ukraine fighter jets are fitted with 2-30mm cannon/guns if my research is correct

X3SaF-bfhes


If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of its cockpit segment!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/08/no_author/was-malaysian-air-hit-by-a-missile-or-not/

[Hervé]

“Support MH17 Truth”: OSCE Monitors Identify “Shrapnel and Machine Gun-Like Holes” indicating Shelling. No Evidence of a Missile Attack. Shot Down by a Military Aircraft? (http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324)

By Prof Michel Chossudovsky (http://www.globalresearch.ca/author/michel-chossudovsky)
Global Research, July 31, 2014

Region: Russia and FSU (http://www.globalresearch.ca/region/russia-and-fsu)
Theme: US NATO War Agenda (http://www.globalresearch.ca/theme/us-nato-war-agenda)
In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT (http://www.globalresearch.ca/indepthreport/ukraine-report)


http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/su251-400x247.jpg
Su-25 aircraft


According to the report of German pilot and airlines expert Peter Haisenko, the MH17 Boeing 777 was not brought down by a missile.

What he observed from the available photos were perforations of the cockpit:
The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. (Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile” (http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111) Global Research, July 30, 2014)

http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_topelement_47299592d2.jpg (http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf)
[click image right to enlarge]


Based on detailed analysis Peter Haisenko (http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111)reached the conclusion that the MH17 was not downed by a missile attack:

This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material
The OSCE Mission
It is worth noting that the initial statements by OSCE observers (July 31) broadly confirm the findings of Peter Haisenko:
Monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe reported that shrapnel-like holes were found in two separate pieces of the fuselage of the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines (http://quotes.wsj.com/MY/MAS) aircraft that was believed to have been downed by a missile in eastern Ukraine.

Michael Bociurkiw of the OSCE group of monitors at his daily briefing described part of the plane’s fuselage dotted with “shrapnel-like, almost machine gun-like holes.” He said the damage was inspected by Malaysian aviation-security officials .(Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/articles/mh17-pieces-with-shrapnel-like-holes-osce-says-1406230555), July 31, 2014)
The monitoring OSCE team has not found evidence of a missile fired from the ground as conveyed by official White House statements. As we recall, the US ambassador to the UN Samantha Power stated –pointing a finger at Russia– that the Malaysian MH17 plane was “likely downed by a surface-to-air missile operated from a separatist-held location”:
The team of international investigators with the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) are uncertain if the missile used was fired from the ground as US military experts have previously suggested, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported. (Malay Mail online, (http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/mh17-investigators-say-machine-gun-like-holes-on-wreckage-suggest-missile-f#sthash.MYY6IwFE.dpuf)emphasis added)
The initial OSCE findings tend to dispel the claim that a BUK missile system brought down the plane.

Evidently, inasmuch as the perforations are attributable to shelling, a shelling operation conducted from the ground could not have brought down an aircraft traveling above 30,000 feet.

Ukraine Su-25 military aircraft within proximity of MH17
Peter Haisenko’s study is corroborated by the Russian Ministry of Defense which pointed to a Ukrainian Su-25 jet in the flight corridor of the MH17, within proximity of the plane.





Ironically, the presence of a military aircraft is also confirmed by a BBC report conducted at the crash site on July 23.
(http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631)
All the eyewitnesses interviewed by the BBC confirmed the presence of a Ukrainian military aircraft flying within proximity of Malaysian Airlines MH17 at the time that it was shot down:
Eyewitness #1: There were two explosions in the air. And this is how it broke apart. And [the fragments] blew apart like this, to the sides. And when …

Eyewitness #2: … And there was another aircraft, a military one, beside it. Everybody saw it.

Eyewitness #1: Yes, yes. It was flying under it, because it could be seen. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one.

Eyewitness #3: There were sounds of an explosion. But they were in the sky. They came from the sky. Then this plane made a sharp turn-around like this. It changed its trajectory and headed in that direction [indicating the direction with her hands].

zUvK5m2vxro

The original BBC Video Report published by BBC Russian Service on July 23, 2014 has since been removed from the BBC archive. In a bitter irony, The BBC is censoring its own news productions.

Media Spin
The media has reported that a surface to air missile was indeed fired and exploded before reaching its target. It was not the missile that brought down the plane, it was the shrapnel resulting from the missile explosion (prior to reaching the plane) which punctured the plane and then led to a loss of pressure.

According to Ukraine’s National security spokesman Andriy Lysenko in a contradictory statement, the MH17 aircraft “suffered massive explosive decompression after being hit by a shrapnel missile.” (See IBT, Australia (http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/560900/20140729/mh17-downing-russia-rebels-crash-site.htm))

In an utterly absurd report, the BBC quoting the official Ukraine statement (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28532525)says that:
The downed Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine suffered an explosive loss of pressure after it was punctured by shrapnel from a missile.

They say the information came from the plane’s flight data recorders, which are being analysed by British experts.

However, it remains unclear who fired a missile, with pro-Russia rebels and Ukraine blaming each other.

Many of the 298 people killed on board flight MH17 were from the Netherlands.

Dutch investigators leading the inquiry into the crash have refused to comment on the Ukrainian claims.

http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_mh17-einschu__sse_c43fcedbcc.jpg


“Machine Gun Like Holes”
The shrapnel marks should be distinguished from the small entry and exit holes “most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile” fired from a military aircraft. These holes could not have been caused by a missile explosion as hinted by the MSM.

While the MSN is saying that the “shrapnel like holes” can be caused by a missile (see BBC report above), the OSCE has confirmed the existence of what it describes as “machine gun like holes”, without however acknowledging that these cannot be caused by a missile.

In this regard, the GSh-302 firing gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-2) operated by an Su-25 is able to fire 3000 rpm [round per minute]which explains the numerous entry and exit holes.

According to the findings of Peter Haisenko: (http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111)
If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment (op cit)
The accusations directed against Russia including the sanctions regime imposed by Washington are based on a lie.

The evidence does not support the official US narrative to the effect that the MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile system operated by the DPR militia.

What next? More media disinformation, more lies?

See:
Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile” (http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111) By Peter Haisenko (http://www.globalresearch.ca/author/haisenko), July 30, 2014

PS: ... still leaving Schiphol and the possibility of a sure fire bomb... alone.

[Operator]

After a period of more than 2 weeks we are now in the era where the world has been split in 2 halves.

- the ones that keep on digging for the truth
- the ones that accept the best plausible explanation to their (limited) knowledge

The latter group is by far the biggest and propaganda has once more done its job.
And, last but not least, this is what counts for the moment ... unfortunately.
Politics are fully based on what has been said so far, who cares if it is true or not?
Case closed ... (politically wise) ... next !

Even when you've proven over a dozen times that people's opinions are played with,
most of them are not willing to go there because the situation requires them to be
loyal and in support of who governs them. They may realize it later but by then the
momentum has already been shifted to a new case. Can we even blame them? Most
of the people are busy 'surviving'.

I think this has been the frustrating factor of the last decades. How do we turn the
tide on this?

[Pris]

After a period of more than 2 weeks we are now in the era where the world has been split in 2 halves.

- the ones that keep on digging for the truth
- the ones that accept the best plausible explanation to their (limited) knowledge

The latter group is the by far the biggest and propaganda has once more done its job.
And, last but not least, this is what counts for the moment ... unfortunately.
Politics are fully based on what has been said so far, who cares if it is true or not?
Case closed ... (politically wise) ... next !

Even when you've proven over a dozen times that people's opinion's are played with,
most of them are not willing to go there because the situation requires them to be
loyal and in support of who governs them. They may realize it later but by then the
momentum has already been shifted to a new case. Can we even blame them? Most
of the people are busy 'surviving'.

I think this has been the frustrating factor of the last decades. How do we turn the
tide on this?

I think the tide is turning on this -- thanks to people like you. More and more people are waking up. We're all just waiting for everyone to 'get it' which is agonizing.

Still, I don't think the Cabal can keep up their charade much longer.

[jerry]

The MH 017 looked similar in it’s tricolor design to that that of the Russian President’s plane.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

[ThePythonicCow]

An article by Eric Zuesse has been posted both here (http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-government-su-25-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airliner/) and here (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/evidence-now-conclusive-2-ukrainian-government-su-25-fighter-jets-shoot-malaysian-airliner-buk-missile-ground-shot-involved.html), with more evidence that MH17 was shot down by high powered gun fire (as in aircraft cannon), not by a missile or bomb.

Michael Bociurkiw, a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), was one of the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after the jet was shot down. When he first arrived, the wreckage was still smoldering. Bociurkiw reports that:



There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine-gun fire, very very strong machine-gun fire.
Here is the snippet of the Canadian Broadcast Corp (CBC) in which Bociurkiw made this statement.
7ze9BNGDyk4
Here is the entire July 29, 2014 CBC article on this report, with an embedded video of the full interview: Malaysia Airlines MH17: Michael Bociurkiw talks about being first at the crash site (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007)

===

P.S. -- I am a bit surprised to see that it is CBC, not a more "dubious" alternative news site, that published this interview.

[Hervé]

Thanks Paul,

I couldn't get that video working for me from the CBC.ca website (see post # 839 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=860006&viewfull=1#post860006))

PS: CBC is having a hard time with gov-ca because it's a public org and wants to retain some journalistic Independence... so its funding is being cut down.

[Slorri]

MOSCOW, August 3 (RIA Novosti) – The data received after the preliminary examination of Boeing-777 Malaysia Airlines black boxes indicated nothing unusual on board before the crash in eastern Ukraine, New Straits Times reported Sunday.
“So far, from what the team has heard, there was nothing unusual. The last voice heard was not the pilot’s. No, there was no indication that the pilots saw or sensed anything off,” the paper quoted the source close to the international group of investigators as saying.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140803/191662050/Preliminary-Examination-of-MH17-Black-Boxes-Reveals-Nothing.html

[Cidersomerset]

De-Escalation? US to train Ukraine National Guard, EU lifts arms ban

-TNyVCGWJlE

Published on 2 Aug 2014


Despite the Ukrainian conflict claiming more lives every day, Kiev is getting further
support from its Westen backers. The Obama administration now plans to train and
equip National Guard fighters, while the EU's quietly lifting a ban on supplying
Ukraine with weapons.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Malaysian Air Probes Are Led By Perpetrators Of The Lockerbie Cover-up

new Sunday 3rd August 2014 at 09:53 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/get-attachment-282-587x396.jpg


‘“Massive explosive decompression” is how a Ukraine defense spokesman
described the midair destruction of Malaysian Airlines flight 17. The three
words, leaked through military liaison, are based on flight-recorder analysis
being conducted at the official inquiry office at TAG London Farnborough
Airport in Hampshire, south of the British capital.

Adding scandal to a double tragedy, the official investigations into both the
midair destruction of MH17 and the MH-370 disappearance are being led by
the same team that perpetrated the cover-up of the PanAm 103 bombing
over Lockerbie, Scotland. Cloaked in secrecy, the Air Accident Investigation
Branch (AAIB) is an agency of the UK Transport Ministry, which was created
by Royal Army and reputedly connected with the MI-6 spy service, the Crown
and the House of Rothschild.’

Read more: Malaysian Air Probes Are Led By Perpetrators Of The Lockerbie Cover-up

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/get-attachment-282-587x396.jpg


==========================================


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/get-attachment-91-587x390.jpg


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ukrainians Protest Against Conscription Orders

Sunday 3rd August 2014 at 09:48 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ukraine-protest.jpg


‘NATO’s war against Ukrainians opposed to the State Department installed
regime is in serious trouble. In addition to mounting casualties and desertions
within the Ukrainian army a growing number of citizens are protesting against
conscription imposed by the government.

In response authorities have promised to arrest anybody who uses social
media to engage in political activism against the war. The order was issued
by Anton Gerashenko, an advisor to the Ministry of Internal Affairs.’




Ukrainians are burning their military drafts[eng subs]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_R9-LCwd54#t=156

Read more: Ukrainians Protest Against Conscription Orders

[Cidersomerset]

This is about the US and allies creating and exploiting an opportunity to
discredit Russia and stop their economic plans with BRICS and also
give them a bloody nose militarily if possible. Putin has seen this coming
and although backed the Crimea re joining the Russian Federation, has
only given limited aid to the separatists in East Ukraine. This is cold war
brinkman ship similar to how the Cuban crises began.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Globalists Asymmetric Warfare Tactics Could Trigger Nuclear War

VjNaBxFN__E


Published on 25 Jul 2014


David Knight conducts an extensive interview with Paul Craig
Roberts an insider and global affairs expert. He covers in detail
the tactics employed through the current conflict in Ukraine. He
identifies the key players, their intentions and the likely outcomes
of this deadly game.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/ukrainians-protest-against-conscription-orders.html


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The discussion in the vid above is interesting and explains what politically
maybe going on and Washingtons strategic planning.They think this could be
an opportunity to provoke Russia into a major conflict , and dealing them
a major setback in their potential military revival and stop the BRICS
countries from interfering with the dollar economy. Paul Craig Roberts
explains his theory and how Putin has seen it coming and trying not
to be provoked, even by Washingtons plans to get Kiev to attack ethnic
Russians. Germany is a key player and both sides have been 'courting'
Mrs Merkyl. Germany is a bit miffed at being spied on with Prism,
although German intelligence must have known and probably took part.

Now all this may explain the US decision to appoint a high ranking
German military officer, as chief of staff for the US Army Europe.So
that if a shooting war begins Germany will be even more obliged
to full fill its NATO obligations.

(senate bill 2277 more Seven's ??)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama Places German Foreign Commander as Chief of Staff for US Army Europe

Saturday 2nd August 2014 at 08:32 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/get-attachment-6-587x426.jpg


‘A German Army brigadier general who recently served with NATO forces in
Afghanistan is assuming duties as the chief of staff of U. S. Army Europe, the first
time a non-American officer has held that position.’

Read more: Obama Places German Foreign Commander as Chief of Staff for US Army Europe

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=23883

[Tesseract]

Did you guys cover this yet?

The alleged satellite imagery of the launch is claimed to be a fake made from imagery in a computer game called Flaming Cliffs 2:


http://www.allmystery.de/themen/pr112045-450#id12555461

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2603977/pg1


This link has a slider tool to compare the images:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-mh17-supposed-satellite-video-of-missile-launch-fake.4025/


I've never played this game, so waiting for some confirmation either way. Will this get any weirder?

Edit: Here is the footage in question:

iPNfpWScXGM

There are some comments from Gordon Duff, or someone using that screen name, that staunchly defend the authenticity of the footage.

[Hervé]

Any body noticed that Gaza disappeared off the map?

While attention was diverted to MH17 and now to Ebola...



Israel 'Wiping Gaza off the Map' (http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/another-country-palestine.html)

Juan Cole
juancole.com (http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/another-country-palestine.html)
Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:06 CDT


http://www.sott.net/image/s9/198351/large/befafgaza_590.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/s9/198351/full/befafgaza_590.jpg)
© RT

Would you know ethnic cleansing when you see it?

Back when the warmongers had hopes of ginning up a war between the United States and Iran during the Bush administration, one of their propaganda talking points was the Iran had "threatened to wipe Israel off the map."

When we look at Gaza's before and after pictures (below) it becomes clear that the charge is more appropriate to Israel itself.

The late Christopher Hitchens, who went off the deep end at the end of his life, joining with the Neoconservatives in hoping for Iran to be so targeted, was furious with me for questioning this underpinning of the war effort (http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitchens-hacker-and-hitchens.html).

I pointed out that there is no such idiom in Persian and that the phrase was a quotation from Imam Khomeini in the 1980s, quoted by then president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. What Khomeini had said was "This Occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." Ahmadinejad said he hoped the Zionist enterprise would collapse just as had the rule of the shah in Iran or that of the Soviet Union. Iran's then president (who is not head of the armed forces) had no authority to order tanks to roll on Israel. There were several countries in between, so Iran cannot attack Israel militarily even if it wanted to. Israeli fighter jets would make mince meat of a conventional Iranian invasion, and anyway Israel has several hundred atomic bombs, which are rather a deterrent.

The argument from Ahmadinejad's use of the Khomeini quote was based on a bad translation. But it was also a logical fallacy, belonging, I think, to the family of "irrelevant appeals." The Iranian leadership does not like Zionism or Jewish nationalism, and wishes it would fade away and collapse ("vanish from the page of time"). This rhetorical hatred, however, has nothing to do with military threats. Iran has no air force or navy to speak of and its military budget is in the same ballpark as Norway and Singapore. Equating hateful speech to an intent to launch aggressive warfare is silly.

Note that the current president of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, elected last summer, doesn't engage in over the top rhetoric and so there have been no attempts to demonize him and use him as a pretext for attacking Iran. Iran has the same regime, so the real difference in only that propaganda via ad hominems has become more difficult.

But after the last three weeks it is clear, in any case, who is in the business of actually wiping other countries off the map. The RT report below shows UN aerial photos showing entire neighborhoods in Gaza razed by the Israeli military. Over 5,000 building have been destroyed and over 26,000 have been damaged. This is a significant proportion of Gaza's housing stock, and the Israelis want to make sure that the damage cannot be repaired. As the Gandolfo article makes (http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/israel-little-electricity.html) clear, water sewage treatment plants aren't working because the Israelis bombed the power station (this was deliberate; they knew exactly where it was). Babies have died in Gaza hospitals because their incubators ceased functioning.


90wFV9AqOI4


How come the UN can pull out accurate satellite imagery for Gaza but none for Ukraine?

[KiwiElf]

Hmmmm and what "other" type of weaponry is Israel using to achieve it? Is it "Iron Beam,"? A Tesla-based particle beam weapon (also discussed in the latest Series 7 Episode 2 of Ancient Aliens)? This photo is allegedly "a recent attack" on Gaza... what IS THIS?

26703


The EricsonReport website shows this image of an unusual explosion which allegedly hit Gaza recently, posing the question, "what kind of weapon does this?" Ideas anyone?

http://www.ericsonreport.com/what-kind-of-weapon-does-this/

(Apologies for getting off topic) :offtopic: