Awaken

[greybeard]

Awaken from what?
Awaken to what?

That is the question.

Thoughts appreciated.

Chris

[PurpleLama]

Awakening from one dream of self into a greater, or a more diffused, dream of self. I don't know that our dream can escape the reference point, unless we actually are asleep and dreaming, moving through the psyche manifested to the slumbering consciousness as people, places and things.

[ulli]

Awaken from what?
Awaken to what?

That is the question.

Thoughts appreciated.

Chris

It shouldn't matter. For now waking up is enough. Stretch. Stretch. Stretch. Move. Move. Move. Love. Love. Love.
System change is guaranteed. Nothing can stop it now, nothing.

[Swan]

A shift... from being separate, to being connected

[araucaria]

Some early wakers are light sleepers: they get to make the coffee. Others woke early out of a nightmare. They get a double ration of coffee. Some heavy sleepers might miss the coffee altogether, but they’ll be most refreshed and so they'll lead the cleaning up from the night before. :)

[Sunny-side-up]

Awaken from what?
Awaken to what?

That is the question.

Thoughts appreciated.

Chris

Awaken to being more than you could ever think you could be, be supreme :)

[betoobig]

Awaken to what we really are and have always been

[donk]

...from the lies we tell ourselves, to a reality that actually exists (outside our own minds)

[Joe Akulis]

If you live in the US, there's a lot to awaken from.

We are aware that most political candidates will not be elected if they don't belong to the two foremost political parties, but what people need to realize is both parties are completely owned by the same beast.

And there are still many in the US with Christian backgrounds that still need to wake up to the fact that we don't just get one life and then eternity afterwards is some reward or punishment for how well we screwed up that one life.

That's a good starter list.

[Ricker]

Awaken to the world around you. Feel the pulse of life. Often times we (me included) get so caught up in our own version of reality that we forget the connection with others.
Awaken to hope, what could be, what might be if only for a moment. Share the wealth of knowledge and love with a stranger most people are receptive. You will be surprised at the feedback you get;)

[Baby Steps]

From Fear to being totally OK

[NancyV]

It's all one big undivided whole. Whatever you're aware of or wherever you go, that's where you are. The more "awakened" one becomes the more one knows there is no need to "awaken" so called others. But we may indulge in any games we choose to play.....and it's all okay.

[Taurean]

I posted this on the Alexandria thread earlier on and think it is just as appropriate here;-


suppose - just suppose! - the purity of the circle has blinded us from seeing anything beyond it! I must begin all over with new eyes. I must rethink everything!... What if we dared to look at the world just as it is. Let us shed for a moment every preconceived idea - what shape would it show us?

[Beren]

Awake to realize what is a dream and what a reality. Then to readily and fluidly go inbetween and wherever we want.
To be awoken is to actively rather than passively - BE.

[greybeard]

I and many hundred others were at a talk by Eckhart Tolle in St James church in London quite a few years ago.
He was very clear that a mass awakening was going on because the "Cosmos" wanted it.
Not a question of making it happen, just not resisting it.
He also said that otherwise, the human race is on self destruct--not that this really mattered as life would manifest in another form, that is we would.

Not that long ago if an enlightened author in the western world sold a thousand books that would have been an event, now Tolle and others have had their work read by literately millions. Awakening is happening on a grand scale.

Chris

[Shadowself]

Awake to realize what is a dream and what a reality. Then to readily and fluidly go inbetween and wherever we want.
To be awoken is to actively rather than passively - BE.

To be, or not to be, that is the question—

To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come -

teSH2mgbnJE

[naste.de.lumina]

I realize this:

Consciousness of conscience.

Manages to remain as long as possible aware that this is a performance and I'm not the guy character. When we walked deep into character, it is very difficult not to make the same mistakes with different formats. A break occurs between the upper consciousness and the ego.

Control my thoughts that are responsible for my feelings is my main challenge exercised on a daily basis. I am able to do very stupid things when just my ego is in charge.

A daily isolation period becomes desired. Rebalancing.

I am very curious and on one hand I'm sad when aware of certain facts, on the other I'm fascinated with the possibilities that unfold in terms of eternal existence. In this case the accumulation of high-frequency information becomes essential.

Welcome to Avalon ..

[Mark]

A good question with good answers.

It would be good to be beyond both I think.

To Know.

No questions, no answers, just experiential awareness.

[DaRkViPeR]

Awaken from your always sleeping mind where you live your life without realizing who and what you are supposed to be.
Awaken to the truth of reality, to look deep into yourself and ask yourself if you are ready to see what I see.
I see a planet that suffers from amnesia.
I see men, women and children dying every day from wars, disease and hunger.
I see a world of deception where everything is based on lies.
I see masses of people being controlled by money and religion.
I see the rich elite herding humanity like sheep to gain more wealth and power.
I see a planet that is dying, yet the powers to be continue with their destruction.
I see humanity driving themselfes to extinction because ignorance is bliss.

If you see what I see, you will stop and realize that something got to change.
Then you are awakened and awake, and you will feel the stirring of your inner soul to be set free, and be what and who you are meant to be.

[Rollo]

Awaken to the reality beyond duality.

[Baby Steps]

From the comfort of my belly button to anywhere higher

[Amer]

... to the fact that in essence we have never been asleep ......

[Milneman]

Your questions make the assumption that we are existing in a condition of sleep.

My first question in reply is this: what allows you to be aware of the difference between one condition and the other?

My second question in reply is this: if you are certain that one condition is different than the other, how can you be certain that one condition is better than the other?

And finally: If one assumes that one has to wake up from one perceived condition to see a condition in another state, how can one be so certain that the condition one sees in the the state one is in, the other, actually exists?

or to put it another way

how can you be convinced the condition of being "awake" isn't just another condition of being "asleep"?


tiddly pom.

[DeDukshyn]

Simply put, I'd say awakening from the dream of Hell, that we are persistently having, to the re-realization of what we really are. But that's the simplified version from my POV.

[greybeard]

The mind will want all kinds of definitions of seemingly different states.
Some will see awake as different from enlightenment, others will believe it to be the same.
Its very easy for the mind to muddy the water.
The dream state is imagination, ever changing, a personal perception.
The mind moves.
Comes down to, experiences come and go, opinions,viewpoints, perception and personality can change, Ultimate Truth is constant, unchanging, permanent in a timeless way, eternal, you are That.

Chris

[DarMar]

i had somehow discovered that from one illusion after waking up, i step into another illusion. And is constantly going asleep and waking up process.

but ...

It shouldn't matter. For now waking up is enough. Stretch. Stretch. Stretch. Move. Move. Move. Love. Love. Love.
System change is guaranteed. Nothing can stop it now, nothing.

I'd say only thing that is not illusion is constant movement. Some expanding and some contracting.
For now i dunno how end of rabbit hole looks like, i see only that it goes and goes and goes...

[Carmen]

To be aware that you are aware.

[DaRkViPeR]

The very fact that you are a member of the Avalon group automatically answer your question.
You are here because you are not convinced that everything in life is what it seems to be.
Because of that you are awake.
Walk into the street and go to the first person you see and tell that person that aliens and ufo's do exist and see the reaction you get.
You will be laughed at and called a mad person.
It is because the world out there is still sleeping. They are living in the illusion.
We are awakened to see beyond the illusion and to try and find the truth.
When things start to happen, will it not be better to be awake and to realize what is going on, than to be asleep?

[giovonni]

to future possibilities ...

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/3-coffee-buddha-falko-follert.jpg

[greybeard]

Here is one prayer.

"I am all alone.
No one belongs to me
I belong to no one except You beloved Lord"

This is worth some thought.

Eckhart Tolle addresses people where they are, but now and then will say something like this direct quote

" There never was anyone there to do anything to you"

Or Ramana quote

"There is neither Creation nor Dissolution"

Is it all the dream of God (Indras dream) ?

That freaks the mind out.

However the standard advice is to be aware of awareness or in other words "Be still and know that I am God."

Movement happens but is it the mind that moves?

Chris

[Sidney]

Awake, is just a knowing. You just know things. It is a higher state, that is unknown, from a higher perspective than the normal senses that we are programmed to be as normal.

you just know. There is no word to describe it.

[chocolate]

I and many hundred others were at a talk by Eckhart Tolle in St James church in London quite a few years ago.
He was very clear that a mass awakening was going on because the "Cosmos" wanted it.
Not a question of making it happen, just not resisting it.
He also said that otherwise, the human race is on self destruct--not that this really mattered as life would manifest in another form, that is we would.

Not that long ago if an enlightened author in the western world sold a thousand books that would have been an event, now Tolle and others have had their work read by literately millions. Awakening is happening on a grand scale.

Chris

Not so long ago I was advised to 'wake up'.
When I was younger my dad used to get angry at times and say 'wake up'.
...
being thinking about it, for a while?

---

After reading Greybeard's post quoted above, withing me arose the answer to what that 'awakening' might mean to me, from my current point of view.

I would call it 'returning to seeing simplicity', among other things.

Here we always mention Source, here and there; or God; or the everlasting light, etc. But for Source, God, Light... to be an everlasting, potential, static, stillness ( pick your choice of words from the spiritual teachings ), it would mean that Source is in constant state of balance, or otherwise it will self-destruct in one direction or another, being light and all of that, will it not?
So, that Source thing being so bright, part of it would require the opposite, being 'not so bright'. I think that is a moment we are experiencing at this reality bubble right now, exploring the state of the opposite of Source being the 'unconditional love', light, peace, etc.
Without this being here, there *possibly* wouldn't be Source for much longer, in my view.
We are simply living in one version of what could be called a more shadow-y state.

On another take:
Anyone who has experiencing getting into trance they would know that the one-pointed-ness is actually a hard state to get out of, sometimes. In order for us to get out of the state of exploring the potential of the shadow-self of Source, or the sum of us, sometimes, or perhaps always, there should be an impulse to help us snap out of the direction of where trance is leading us.

And that impulse to wake up, to snap out of this direction of flow, is what I would understand has being transmitted by Eckhart Tolles'es words.

For me reality is being a complex construct consisting of more or less simple units.
How I see simplicity? By reality here and now being 'simply' a (one) version of itself. With no past per se, and with no future, just exploring it here now. And every other version of it being also present, together with what we call past and with what we call future, being happening right now, someplace else in another version of a reality bubble.

Or put simply in another way:
'My father's mansion has many rooms...'

We live with the knowledge of what happened in the past, right? 200 years ago, 2000 years ago, etc. Well, as of right now archaeology seems to disagree with many accepted facts of what we have accepted as 'knowledge'.
I would say that is how Source is giving us the indication to not take everything so logically, or literally, but to accept the idea of all of this being a multy (-layered?) existence ( some say we are multidimensional beings, right?) where nothing is what the human logic would think of it.
Seeing that for what it is is another 'waking up' (for straight-forward thinking).

The Bible perhaps hints to the fact that there are many meanings one can derive from it, at any given point of one's development.
All religions being a version of 'A One Thing' hint to that, I think, also.

---
There is this story about an indian sage who had discovered the existence of the smallest indivisible part of matter, the atom, using rise grains some thousands of years ago.

So for me, I think, I had to wake up to thinking simply, again, to understanding complex matter applying simple principles.

Something like that.

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/105/d/d/yin_yang_city_2_by_dudemansam-d61twxg.jpg

[chocolate]

Dgud3nkQ4r0

[giovonni]

Awaken i have been ... Since first viewing the film 'Being There' eons ago ...

But now ah per Chance to dream ... And have that well deserved rest ... :sleep:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bow1ZJTV4L4

[TraineeHuman]

I would ask, awakening of what? The initial stages of the answer to that may perhaps for many be: the awakening of thoughts that are liberating. But as rakhyt and some others have pointed out, ultimately it's a matter of the awakening of what it is that the highest and best such thoughts can only flimsily point at: higher consciousness, and even simply just being, in a much, much fuller and greater way.

There's a paradox here, because, always, something higher in us seems, to us, to wake itself up. We don't somehow make it wake up. And not that it hasn't always forever been awake already. What we no doubt mostly need to do to experience this awakeness as real is, we need to downplay or even get rid of all the "static" that's keeping us from tuning into, and knowing, that a higher part of us is already here. And doing its best to somehow get through to and permeate and radically transform who we currently think we are.

It's also a matter of us -- as we currently think we are -- putting more and more attention on what's higher, such as through meditating. Changing our view for the better.

Of course, at no point do we fully know exactly what it is that's higher until we've awakened into it. So to be accurate, you can say it's primarily our lower self that's doing the awakening, always into something that it doesn't really know in advance. Maybe it's a matter of not asking many questions about the awakening process so much, but more just to let go and trust our own inner guidance more and more.

Actually, the Higher Self also does some extra awakening of its own in the process of the lower self getting awakened. This is because the Higher Self is always reaching and penetrating further and further into the world of the lower self.

Awakening (in the lower self at least) means the realization, the moving into, and hence expansion into, a higher level: of functioning, of consciousness, of knowing, and self-knowing, of Truth, of integration with the Oneness, and even the One, and ultimately: of being, bliss, and supreme Consciousness.

I believe we should all ask ourselves, and look in a very detailed and deep way to see, what is the very highest that we could just possibly, somehow, potentially reach? What is the very best (in some true sense, and maybe not in a materialistically greedy sense at all)? And including the realization of what is the Unknowable as far as the (ordinary) mind is concerned? And of what to us at present remains profound but profoundly hidden? What is it that ultimately drives us yet we cannot seize or share it? The very life-force and the (ordinary) mind themselves have to be utterly exceeded, regardless of how desperately much they yearn for this very thing for their own fulfillment.

And if a person truly surpasses his or her present "level" of attainment, if s/he actually, really tastes Infinity, or her/his own Immortality, or true Freedom or true Love, and so on, that person still finds himself/herself falling short of knowing it utterly. And his/her mind trots up the misinformation that what lies ultimately "beyond" is what he/she seeks and is the greatest. It cannot be "right here", supposedly -- or so the mind misinforms that person. And if that person finds the Divine at all, it seems that the Divine has now limited itself, by being available to that person at a lower level of reality than the most ultimate.

[greybeard]

Thanks for the contributions everyone.

Chris

[Pris]

If awakening has anything to do with knowledge, there's plenty of it out there right now. So, there's no excuse to not 'awaken'.

But, one must use great discernment when sifting through all this 'knowledge' because so much of it intentionally and unintentionally misleads.

You still have to figure it all out on your own.

[Camilo]

Awaken from what?.......from the slumber we're born into
Awaken to what?...........to the reality of who we really are

[Amer]

The very fact that you are a member of the Avalon group automatically answer your question.
You are here because you are not convinced that everything in life is what it seems to be.
Because of that you are awake.
Walk into the street and go to the first person you see and tell that person that aliens and ufo's do exist and see the reaction you get.
You will be laughed at and called a mad person.
It is because the world out there is still sleeping. They are living in the illusion.
We are awakened to see beyond the illusion and to try and find the truth.
When things start to happen, will it not be better to be awake and to realize what is going on, than to be asleep?

Couldn't your very words be used by every other personally-involved-I'm-a-believer-in-something on the planet?

Believing in something doesn't make it a general truth for all peoples. Why should we think that we are more "awake" than someone else just because we believe in aliens and UFOs?

I may think I am Awake but for another I will always have sleep in my eyes. If I start to put my belief on a superior rung of life's ladder to yours I fall into the age old trap of them and us. Any consideration of advancement in this life must surely come down to the simplicity of how evolved is my humanity? Am I kind? Do I honour and love myself and others?

I may believe in reptilian alien imposters, NWO plans for mass depopulation, alien craft swooning the skies above us, I may be savvy to the wiles of political planners and au fait with any number of bizarre topics on this forum........ but if I am not intrinsically involved in the furtherment of my spirit what good will all this information do me? How Awake am I really? I just may be a very informed yet at the same time miserable human being...... just an observation......

The only part of us that never sleeps is our soul....... can not our souls evolve without belief in anything?

[Pris]

The only part of us that never sleeps is our soul....

How do you know our soul never sleeps? Just curious.


...can not our souls evolve without belief in anything?

Is that a rhetorical question lol? It's a great question. I've no idea.

'Do you think that's air you're breathing now?' Maybe we need to believe it's air for it to be air.

Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve... if that's the goal. Then, air wouldn't matter. :)

[Carmen]

Be still and Know I Am God
Be still and know I Am
Be still and know
Be still
Be

[budicca]

Hi Greybeard I hope you are well x I have been deeply distracted with my awakening the realisation of being an indigo has had me hide away with deep thoughts and being massively distracted. I awoke many many yrs ago to a world I didn't resonate with I felt like I didn't belong I knew things were wrong within most of the aspects of life for me it was like torture. I knew things and was asking questions and felt demoralised when I was told to sit down and shut up....but being the typical indigo that I am I rebelled......I got lost in the world past traumas haunted me and stopped me from ploughing forward in my life path it was chaotic and soul destroying.....but in the last two yrs a new direction has been willing me and pushing me i kept seeing 1111 firstly its my date of birth but I saw it everywhere I went like my birthday the yr 11 11 11 I went out for dinner my table number was again the number 11 so I thought there is something in this and my journey began. I have been searching for answers all my life I started looking into numerology as I see number sequences and each time I acknowledged them they changed....but I had a more perplexing set of numbers which were driving me to distraction I kept seeing 0808 0909 1010 1111 1212 every day everytime I picked my phone up there they were so I was ploughing through numerology sites like a woman possessed nothing came up so I condemned myself into my old pattern I'm mad.....until today .....I went for some healing therapy yesterday first one ever I don't like conventional practices of modern medicine as I will be put on some very harsh medication for depression so I sought help at a local centre called number 11 spooky eh lol but the kind gentleman who only booked me and charged me for 30 mins kindly gave me a full hour he counselled me as he healed and we spoke of the number sequences I'd been seeing he said he wasn't sure about the meaning numerically but he talked about how some of the ppl here on earth connect with sirius and longing to go home which sparked me intensely. ....after my theraphy I felt charged and refreshed like a reboot and today I went to my search engine and searched atlanteans and the link I'm going to post was the place I needed to be it explained everything and hit me like a lightening bolt I even did a celebratory dance lol this explained the paradigm shift perfectly in 2012 x I'll post the link now and see what you think x namastè x
http://www.thenewearth.org/The%20Fall%20of%20Atlantis.html

[Amer]

Is that a rhetorical question lol? It's a great question. I've no idea.

I think as humans we all need to believe in something to give us some direction. However,I think that we should always challenge and put what we believe in, up for examination and discussion, and never assume that our beliefs are in some way superior to another's. They should only direct us on our path, whether they are truly directional will be seen by how we treat ourselves and others.


Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

[budicca]

I agree nothing is superior to others its about understanding your path first x ego is the dowfall x

[greybeard]

There are many starting points but the road gets narrower and narrower till eventually even the thought of a path is surrendered.

Thanks to Wind for posting this.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=889754&viewfull=1#post889754
Chris

[conk]

And this thread too I surrender to thee Oh Lord. :)

Greybeard, your wonderful energy is appreciated. Salute!

[Pris]

Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

What if we don't need to 'evolve' so-to-speak? What if we just ebb and flow with the tide and have been and always will be at the 'height' of whatever we are? What if... we're just like water? We just change states?

Our souls do seem to like to hoard information and knowledge though (yes, savvy buggers!). :) The creation of a unique individual is, perhaps, what this is all about?

Appreciation of our connectedness with one another and everything is one thing. Appreciation of ourselves and others as unique, awake and aware individuals is, perhaps, why we're here. We always seem to downplay the importance of that which strikes me as... missing the whole point.

[Jake]

Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

What if we don't need to 'evolve' so-to-speak? What if we just ebb and flow with the tide and have been and always will be at the 'height' of whatever we are? What if... we're just like water? We just change states?

Our souls do seem to like to hoard information and knowledge though (yes, savvy buggers!). :) The creation of a unique individual is, perhaps, what this is all about?

Appreciation of our connectedness with one another and everything is one thing. Appreciation of ourselves and others as unique, awake and aware individuals is, perhaps, why we're here. We always seem to downplay the importance of that which strikes me as... missing the whole point.

I loved that response.. :) I suspect that the 'human experience' is well respected in the non-physical realms. :)


We sleep that we may dream. We dream that we may wake.

Jake.

[Milneman]

The mind will want all kinds of definitions of seemingly different states.

1. Are you suggesting that there is a material state different from mind and different from body? Are you suggesting that these different states mean there is a difference between the substance of body, the substance of mind, and this third unnamed substance?

Some will see awake as different from enlightenment, others will believe it to be the same.
Its very easy for the mind to muddy the water.

2. I as of yet still have no clear definition about what the one state is, or how it is fundamentally different from the other state. Chris, what I'm gathering is that there is this condition that 'happens' when you do certain things with your mind that help you perceive things differently. Have I got that right? And if I do have that right, I have to ask once again: What makes one certain that what one is experiencing is say just simply the difference between one combination of chemicals in the brain as opposed to another combination of chemicals in the brain? Endorphin combination A replaced by endorphin combination B. I'm not disagreeing with you as far as mind body dualism. I'm saying that I don't have a really clear understanding of the process you're talking about. It's far too general.

The dream state is imagination, ever changing, a personal perception.


Right.

3. Life is imagination, ever changing, a personal perception.

How is this different from any other bitts metaphysical (new age) fluff we encounter in a fortune cookie? :wacko:

The mind moves.

Does it? How does it move? What moves it? Does it physically move? Or does it experience differences in states created by biochemical reactions? I'm not sure the mind moves at all. If you're suggesting it shifts perceptions, that's one thing.

If it does move, where does it go? How does it get there? Does it need to take the body with it?


Comes down to, experiences come and go, opinions,viewpoints, perception and personality can change, Ultimate Truth is constant, unchanging, permanent in a timeless way, eternal, you are That.


So you're a Platonist? :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤





Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

What if we don't need to 'evolve' so-to-speak? What if we just ebb and flow with the tide and have been and always will be at the 'height' of whatever we are? What if... we're just like water? We just change states?

Our souls do seem to like to hoard information and knowledge though (yes, savvy buggers!). :) The creation of a unique individual is, perhaps, what this is all about?

Appreciation of our connectedness with one another and everything is one thing. Appreciation of ourselves and others as unique, awake and aware individuals is, perhaps, why we're here. We always seem to downplay the importance of that which strikes me as... missing the whole point.

Ok buddeee :) Here's your dose of friendly trouble. :D

How do you know there is a soul? How do you know that it's not just all a collection of chemicals in the brain brought about by a random, unguided evolutionary process?

(for what it's worth, I'm with both you and greybeard on this...this is as much practice for my writing and thinking skills as anything else. ;))

[Milneman]

Be still and Know I Am God
Be still and know I Am
Be still and know
Be still
Be

Bee? BEE? WHERE?!?!?!

[Shezbeth]

Having read through this thread, I have only one comment.

One cannot stay awake indefinitely, eventually one falls back (returns?) to sleep. ^_~

[Deega]

Awaken from what?
Awaken to what?

That is the question.

Thoughts appreciated.

Chris

Hi Chris, great of you to bring these questions!

We awake from something a bit higher than what we knew before, and it's an endless game, the important thing is, do you feel good in awakening to new knowledge, new learning, if not, than awakening was just a process, and I think that it's good also, it's part of being alive, of being conscious.

The best to you!

[Carmen]

No bee! Just Be! To Be without thought, without comment, without judgement. I know,I know, you were be-ing funny! But, the realisation of just being is an expansive, freeing experience. The more we just "be", the more life "flows". It's probably because we get out of our own way and allow spirit to impress and inspire us with original ideas and actions. Works for me anyway!

[truthseekerdan]

For my friend(s) here... Enjoy!

btLmnRmJfyc

[Meggings]

................

[Pris]

Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

What if we don't need to 'evolve' so-to-speak? What if we just ebb and flow with the tide and have been and always will be at the 'height' of whatever we are? What if... we're just like water? We just change states?

Our souls do seem to like to hoard information and knowledge though (yes, savvy buggers!). :) The creation of a unique individual is, perhaps, what this is all about?

Appreciation of our connectedness with one another and everything is one thing. Appreciation of ourselves and others as unique, awake and aware individuals is, perhaps, why we're here. We always seem to downplay the importance of that which strikes me as... missing the whole point.

Ok buddeee :) Here's your dose of friendly trouble. :D

How do you know there is a soul? How do you know that it's not just all a collection of chemicals in the brain brought about by a random, unguided evolutionary process?

(for what it's worth, I'm with both you and greybeard on this...this is as much practice for my writing and thinking skills as anything else. ;))

Hahaha! :) Sure, sure. I don't really 'know' if there's a 'soul'.

However, I do know this... from my own experience lol... I've been fully awake and aware 'outside' my body during some spontaneous OBEs. Now, that's weird... or normal. It means I'm not just stuck in my head imagining myself to be just a collection of chemicals in my brain brought about by a random, unguided evolutionary process. :biggrin1:

I agree -- this is fun writing and thinking practice. It's a lot like poetry. :)

[greybeard]

The mind will want all kinds of definitions of seemingly different states.

1. Are you suggesting that there is a material state different from mind and different from body? Are you suggesting that these different states mean there is a difference between the substance of body, the substance of mind, and this third unnamed substance?

Some will see awake as different from enlightenment, others will believe it to be the same.
Its very easy for the mind to muddy the water.

2. I as of yet still have no clear definition about what the one state is, or how it is fundamentally different from the other state. Chris, what I'm gathering is that there is this condition that 'happens' when you do certain things with your mind that help you perceive things differently. Have I got that right? And if I do have that right, I have to ask once again: What makes one certain that what one is experiencing is say just simply the difference between one combination of chemicals in the brain as opposed to another combination of chemicals in the brain? Endorphin combination A replaced by endorphin combination B. I'm not disagreeing with you as far as mind body dualism. I'm saying that I don't have a really clear understanding of the process you're talking about. It's far too general.

The dream state is imagination, ever changing, a personal perception.


Right.

3. Life is imagination, ever changing, a personal perception.

How is this different from any other bitts metaphysical (new age) fluff we encounter in a fortune cookie? :wacko:

The mind moves.

Does it? How does it move? What moves it? Does it physically move? Or does it experience differences in states created by biochemical reactions? I'm not sure the mind moves at all. If you're suggesting it shifts perceptions, that's one thing.

If it does move, where does it go? How does it get there? Does it need to take the body with it?


Comes down to, experiences come and go, opinions,viewpoints, perception and personality can change, Ultimate Truth is constant, unchanging, permanent in a timeless way, eternal, you are That.


So you're a Platonist? :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤





Maybe our souls don't need physical bodies to evolve...

I think the entering of the human body and taking on everything that it entails must be an excellent insight for the soul on its path to enlightenment because it is so damn hard and challenging and yet so beautiful and inspiring.... our souls I imagine if they're savvy learn a multitude of things ... ;)

What if we don't need to 'evolve' so-to-speak? What if we just ebb and flow with the tide and have been and always will be at the 'height' of whatever we are? What if... we're just like water? We just change states?

Our souls do seem to like to hoard information and knowledge though (yes, savvy buggers!). :) The creation of a unique individual is, perhaps, what this is all about?

Appreciation of our connectedness with one another and everything is one thing. Appreciation of ourselves and others as unique, awake and aware individuals is, perhaps, why we're here. We always seem to downplay the importance of that which strikes me as... missing the whole point.

Ok buddeee :) Here's your dose of friendly trouble. :D

How do you know there is a soul? How do you know that it's not just all a collection of chemicals in the brain brought about by a random, unguided evolutionary process?

(for what it's worth, I'm with both you and greybeard on this...this is as much practice for my writing and thinking skills as anything else. ;))

Hi Milneman
to put anything I post in context.
I have no personal experience of the state called enlightenment, everything I write about spirituality is second hand but is the result of many years reading, listening to cds/videos on virtually a daily basis. Certain statements came up repeatedly from different writers/sources.
So I have belief rather than out right knowing.
Some things I say will be instantly recognised by people who read the same or similar books to those I have read.
Its like a different language.

(I) There are obviously different states of mind--happy, sad etc. However they come and go enlightenment is beyond mind and does not fluctuate, you could say it is aware but unaffected---it observes. (Action may follow)

(2) try this link for a clearer understanding
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...

For the rest. "The mind moves" what is observed and also th observer may be still but the mind is active/moving ---labelling comparing referencing.
Soul is a word with different definitions---my belief is that there is only one soul, reason being countless times I have come across the statement "One without a second" For me that definition of "God/Source /Creator" sums it up.
In my language--Only God is---therefore I and everything else without exception is God.

Cant prove one single thing except the fact that I am--I exist is without dispute.
That which I am beyond personality and changing states of mind---I as a witness-observer---seems to me, to be consistent and unchanging.

Its worth looking at books by Ramana Maharshi, Nasargadatta, (Indian authors deceased) Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti. (Western)_

Best wishes
Chris

[Shadowself]

Having read through this thread, I have only one comment.

One cannot stay awake indefinitely, eventually one falls back (returns?) to sleep. ^_~

But are we really asleep?

When I sleep and awaken in the morning I'm refreshed to greet another day. My body is ready for another day after a good nights sleep.



But when I sleep I do more in the dream state with my mind than when I'm bodily awake. It would seem that the function of the bodily/mind state requires action and at the end of the day it requires sleep. But the mind still functions during the sleep state.

What action does the body require during sleep? The mind is free to do more during sleep not requiring as much bodily function action/signal.

So what has passed while you sleep? Time.

Anagram: Asleep / Elapse

Latin term Elapsus: elapsus m (feminine elapsa, neuter elapsum); first/second declension

slipped away; escaped; elapsed

So the only thing you've missed while you're asleep is time. It's elapsed. Your mind/thought process is still functioning.

Are you ever really asleep? What dreams may come?

I'll "play it again Sam"

teSH2mgbnJE

Thought provoking no?

[greybeard]

Thanks again for all the interesting posts.

Chris

[Feritciva]

As a group of Masters once said...

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