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aranuk
27th October 2014, 20:01
I happen to be of the opinion that Karma and Re-incarnation are facts of life. I have experienced Karma in different ways on many occasions. I have experienced Instant Karma on quite a number of times, no doubt at all in my mind. I read most about Karma by reading Rudolf Steiners' 8 volumes on Karma. He gave an enormous amount of instances and descriptions in these works, however there were many questions I kept coming up with that he had never explained. Here are a few that has kept my mind busy for some time. Please excuse my writing on this as I have a tendency to go all over the place without any explanation. It is an incredible concept with many implications.

The wisest of men for thousands of years have known about it and in many eastern religions it is a given. It is said to be a just system and absolutely fair to everyone. Why some retribution doesn't appear in the same lifetime and has to be postponed to the next lifetime or even the one after that doesn't seem to have an explanation. Maybe the next lifetime is a fairer retribution, who knows.

Here are a few questions of my own and in some I have had to try to answer myself. If anyone here feels they want to answer any feel free and in fact I will encourage you to do so. If you want to pose a question please do that too!

Karmic dilemmas

a) If a person murders another person, would it be ok if someone murders him. Did the murderer
deserve to be killed?
b) If a person murders more than one person should he be murdered again in another life. i.e. Once in every lifetime as he cannot be murdered more than once in a lifetime.
c) What if a person is responsible for killing thousands of people? What should his Karma be?
d) If a person cheats an old vulnerable woman out of £20,00 and someone steals his car worth 10k is the car thief guilty of anything? Or is the person who stole the old woman’s money a victim or did he deserve it? Did the car thief really steal the car of the old lady?
e) Is it ok to cheat a cheat? Is it ok to murder a murderer? Is it ok to deceive a deceiver? Is it ok to defile a pedophile?
f) is a murderer a bad person or is he just avenging a murder in the previous life????
g) does vengeance = karma
h)Can anyone really interfere with another person's karma?

Steiner said that if we knew what our Karma was we could avoid doing it. This is why sometimes an innocuous event can change our path in life. I have explained my own experience on a thread a few years ago here. I will try to find it.


Governments make laws to keep the population under control. These laws are not necessary just. We may brake a government law but does that make us a real criminal. Criminals seem to have another code of practice which has nothing to do with a government law. Different Governments have different laws to suit their own agendas.

I wonder what common law says about this. I know that the golden rule is not to hurt someone else, not to steal someone’s property etc.


Stan

regnak
27th October 2014, 20:15
Karma is not real. if you act in a certain way you will get certain results but you can change your fate there is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Yes we do come back to learn life lessons but at any point you can change your path it is all up to you .

Reality I believe is conscious of our taught and feelings . Look a pen in front of you okay did you know that every single person in the world has blind spots in your vision the brain fills in the blanks. what does this mean well you can change anything about your life. if your life sucks our u have serious problems this is only because u accept things well how hard is it to change hard very hard for you are very hard to fool to change things around.


Well truth is that everyone chooses the reality that they live in as to its existence you choose that as well maybe I should not have posted but I taught you be interested in a different view. Karma exists till you learn a life lesson or are ready to move on from karma. the complexities therein karma could tie you in knots of who is right or who is wrong of feuds and bloodshed .

if someone wrongs me I cross them off my list means I have nothing ever to do with them again I do not get revenge for who am I to judge them you judge yourself I leave you to your karma

aranuk
27th October 2014, 20:31
Hi Jon if you don't believe in Karma, then how can you be interested in this thread. You will have a hard time trying to convince me that it doesn't exist and many others on this Avalon forum too. I thought it would be obvious that this thread was for people who do think Karma is at work with peoples lives. I was not intending a debate on its existence, rather a debate on all the complexities therein.

Stan

Skyhaven
27th October 2014, 20:46
I believe facing karma isn't based on the outcome of specific situations like for instance murder. I believe that a specific outcome like murder is a symptom of a negative low vibrating energy pattern a person has developed in one's being. If one acts upon that pattern it will only be enforced. This will automatically attract the same kind of experiences towards that person, because the universe acts like a mirror. It will persistently present new situations to a person of that same vibration. In my opinion this is the process of paying off that karma, and it is very just, because one has to keep facing what one has done to others because it is reflected back towards the self eventually. In the end the cycle can only be broken by forgiveness and not revenge.

Bluegreen
27th October 2014, 21:01
a) I think that luck has a lot to do with it. Our (sciences), and as a result we are reluctant to give much credence to sheer dumb luck.
b) see a)
c) Worse. Equal.
d) Yes, theft.
e) No.
f) I don't know.
g) No.
h) An excellent question.

:biggrin:

ginnyk
27th October 2014, 21:06
Hi Stan, nice thread. I seem to remember in my study of the Seth materials years ago that he said the amount of guilt or the kind energy you felt, not the act itself, would cause the karmic reaction. I would never be able to find this reference, so I'll just have to offer it as a memory.

For example, compare a murder committed in rage or lust, to that of a spouse who kills a terminally ill loved one in order to end their suffering. The latter would require love so great that it is hard to comprehend.

Both legally would be called murder. But, will the karma be the same, or will it be a reflection of the energy of the event?

I guess I just created another question. Thanks for bringing up this interesting subject, I look forward to a good discussion.

Ginny

EWO
27th October 2014, 21:16
These are just my views.
I believe in Karma and that it is a state of being. Being bad and doing bad things, creates bad karma and bad karma creates more bad karma, just like good karma creates more good karma.
The answer to the questions is NO, its not ok to murder a murderer, steal from a thief...etc
By doing so you are putting more of the same karma out there. Yes the original murderer got his bad karma back to him, but now you deserve bad karma for killing him... therefore perpetuating the bad cycle. When I say he deserves bad karma for killing him, I dont mean he now deserves to die. Karma comes in many forms, its not always eye for an eye, in this example your bad karma could be living with pain of killing another person, even if he deserved it, it still doesnt make it easy.

It all comes down to a choice, or free will. Many will choose that its ok to kill a murderer or steal from a thief but it all comes with a price which is perpetual cycle of bad karma.
In a theoretical Utopian society that is perfect and there is no crime, it comes down to people making a choice only to put out good karma, ie. not to kill the murderer, not to steal...etc. Eventually it spreads and bad karma fades out, leaving only the good karma in a perpetual cycle.

But no society/nation on earth is no where near this level, there always has to be a balance. In a modern good society the good karma among the people outweighs the bad karma, which leads to a better and brighter future and more good karma. Every once in a while some individual can put out a lot of bad karma which can destabilize the society. Eventually it recovers, as long as people can see and learn from their mistakes.

The worst thing that can happen to a society is for it to completely lose its history. Just like the worst thing it can happen to a soul is to lose its past life memories. Then it has to start from the bottom and recover and rebuild all it has lost.

Generally karma seems to move towards the good. It takes a lot of energy, bad karma, to set it back. But i think it can work both ways.
Even in a society that seem to get worse and worse and its looking like there is more and more bad karma, eventually too much bad karma can destroy/reset the society, and the survivors can then rebuild and make sure they make the right choice and head towards the path of the good karma.

So a mostly good society is likely to be destroyed from the outside by unforeseen forces (natural disasters...etc).
Mostly bad society is likely to be destroyed from within (wars...etc).

If you want to have a life filled with good karma, try not to judge others for the bad that they do, that will only put out more bad karma.
Instead learn from their mistakes. Of course there are certain things in life that that can only be understood with personal experience, thats why we often do something that others have failed in, knowing we are likely to fail as well.

I guess thats life :)

seeker/reader
27th October 2014, 21:21
I suspect Karma is a false paradigm, that beings are tricked into believing and participating in. It is a system run by a false hierarchy that preys upon the participants.

Check out these articles by Cameron Day
here http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/11/21/tell-the-lords-of-karma-that-you-are-sovereign-no-longer-a-lightworker-part-2/
and here http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/08/23/why-i-am-no-longer-a-light-worker/

Others like Nanci Danison, a near-death experiencer, says that we are parts of Source sent here to experience life on behalf of Source. She also says that karma is not real (here in this video). Source unconditionally loves us and therefore does not judge us and there is no punishment.

Oo8szDkpcsM

I think these different ways of looking at karma are important to consider.

If we are parts of Source that come here to experience life on behalf of Source, why would be punished by Source for doing what we were sent here to do??? Our Eternal Spirits are parts of source sent down into humans to gain experiential knowledge for Source and in that way we help Source KNOW all that is and ever has been done based upon our choices and actions while in the physical.

Omni
27th October 2014, 21:34
I think skyhaven sums up my thoughts well in some respect. I was made aware of a certain karmic debt by ET contact, in that they have within their systems of reincarnation, the choosing of who incarnates with who. And who incarnates as what. So if you betray humanity, you have some lifetimes as incarnating in bad genetics, maybe even severely autistic genetics unless the negative ETs sponsor the soul, in which the soul will incarnate in the 13 bloodlines and their sub-genomes most likely... You might ask why(and what gives them the right) do they control who we incarnate with and as(genetically i mean, not deciding who we are), well it just works better that way. Soul mates and soul family has no way of incarnating together other than pure luck(if such a thing exists) unless it is controlled. If it wasn't controlled you would have souls like Buddha incarnating in bodies like a housecat, cows, or dogs, instead of a human. You might ask how do they decide, I have seen the AI that decides such things(Ma'at aspect-like AI), it is flawless. It considers every single variable and is as fair as possible. You could liken it's clarity to what people perceive as God. Might be controversial to post, but that never stopped me before...


I believe facing karma isn't based on the outcome of specific situations like for instance murder. I believe that a specific outcome like murder is a symptom of a negative low vibrating energy pattern a person has developed in one's being. If one acts upon that pattern it will only be enforced. This will automatically attract the same kind of experiences towards that person, because the universe acts like a mirror. It will persistently present new situations to a person of that same vibration. In my opinion this is the process of paying off that karma, and it is very just, because one has to keep facing what one has done to others because it is reflected back towards the self eventually. In the end the cycle can only be broken by forgiveness and not revenge.

aranuk
27th October 2014, 22:42
Hi Stan, nice thread. I seem to remember in my study of the Seth materials years ago that he said the amount of guilt or the kind energy you felt, not the act itself, would cause the karmic reaction. I would never be able to find this reference, so I'll just have to offer it as a memory.

For example, compare a murder committed in rage or lust, to that of a spouse who kills a terminally ill loved one in order to end their suffering. The latter would require love so great that it is hard to comprehend.

Both legally would be called murder. But, will the karma be the same, or will it be a reflection of the energy of the event?

I guess I just created another question. Thanks for bringing up this interesting subject, I look forward to a good discussion.

Ginny

Hi Ginny, Going along with the Seth material in the case of euthanasia and versus the outright murder one would assume that they would be treated differently and that perhaps the person who helped their suffering mother exit the physical world would be rewarded in some manner for their courage. I don't know either, but as they say, we are allowed to discuss it!

Stan

aranuk
27th October 2014, 22:54
I suspect Karma is a false paradigm, that beings are tricked into believing and participating in. It is a system run by a false hierarchy that preys upon the participants.

Check out these articles by Cameron Day
here http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/11/21/tell-the-lords-of-karma-that-you-are-sovereign-no-longer-a-lightworker-part-2/
and here http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/08/23/why-i-am-no-longer-a-light-worker/

Others like Nanci Danison, a near-death experiencer, says that we are parts of Source sent here to experience life on behalf of Source. She also says that karma is not real (here in this video). Source unconditionally loves us and therefore does not judge us and there is no punishment.

Oo8szDkpcsM

I think these different ways of looking at karma are important to consider.

If we are parts of Source that come here to experience life on behalf of Source, why would be punished by Source for doing what we were sent here to do??? Our Eternal Spirits are parts of source sent down into humans to gain experiential knowledge for Source and in that way we help Source KNOW all that is and ever has been done based upon our choices and actions while in the physical.

Hi S/R according to Nanci Danison in that video, she accepts the concept of re-incarnation but doesn't accept Karma. She seems to explain away the karmic actions as being some other thing called a learning experience of 360 degrees. Whatever name we call something doesn't change the thing. My dad didn't know about Karma but he described something he knew as the Law of retribution and exchange. Same same. Just different names. Diva/Angel same same.

As for the Cameron Day articles I did read them and had a lot of difficulty with his descriptions of the mechanics in all of that. I can't believe in his Turds of karma concept at all. It sure doesn't resonate well with me I'm sorry.

Stan

Michael Moewes
27th October 2014, 22:55
Ok. very interesting thread. and I will try to give some explanations as good as possible. From a Buddhist view.
Ok, the first thing to know about Karma is that it's just the word wich stands to the relation between cause and effect.
If you agree that every cause has an effect, then you believe in Karma. There can be no doubt.
As we've been reincarnated for eons of kalpas(wich just stays for an really long time) we have accumulated Karma.
There is no good or bad Karma, as Karma has no quality.
So, every action you did, in mind, speach or action, plants a seed of Karma in your eternal soul.
When you are lucky this seed will ripen right away and you have to deal with it right away. in this case the effect is not so strong with wich you have to deal.
The other case is more unpleasant when the seed needs longer to ripen and comes f.e. in the next lifetime or later.
The more time passes by and you cannot work out this Karma the stronger and more powerfull it becomes.



a) If a person murders another person, would it be ok if someone murders him. Did the murderer
deserve to be killed?
b) If a person murders more than one person should he be murdered again in another life. i.e. Once in every lifetime as he cannot be murdered more than once in a lifetime.

Ok. In this case it's not easy apart from the one thing that you shall not kill. not even a murderer. with one ecception.
If you are aware that one person is going to kill a lot of people, so to avoid for him to accumulate this Karma you may kill him.
So that you avoid the suffering of so many with the short suffering of one person. This I heard in the teaching of one great Tibetan master as it had happend long time ago.


c) What if a person is responsible for killing thousands of people? What should his Karma be?

You cannot decide the Karma. what you refer to is justice or judgement. and I'm not advanced enough to know wich Karma he's getting back


d) If a person cheats an old vulnerable woman out of £20,00 and someone steals his car worth 10k is the car thief guilty of anything? Or is the person who stole the old woman’s money a victim or did he deserve it? Did the car thief really steal the car of the old lady?

I'd say he got lucky to be able to repay the Karma right away. ( but someone with a 10k car, does he need to cheat for 20 pounds)

e) Is it ok to cheat a cheat? Is it ok to murder a murderer? Is it ok to deceive a deceiver? Is it ok to defile a pedophile?

Never use the eye for an eye method as it will create some heavier Karma for yourself.


f) is a murderer a bad person or is he just avenging a murder in the previous life????

A murderer is always a bad person because he laks compassion and loving kindness. and it's possible that he's avenging but not sure, because the law of cause and effect is very complex.

g) does vengeance = karma

Never, vengance only leads to more vengance and you will get lost in this spiral of violence.

h)Can anyone really interfere with another person's karma?

You're doing it all the time, when you interfere with someone. by talking, thinking or acting.
That's why His Holliness the Dalai Lama said once. treat everyone as higher as yourself. I guess he will tell us with this. that's how to avoid planting a negative seed.

I hope I've been of help.
Have a great day and stay healthy

Michael Moewes
27th October 2014, 23:16
Hi Ginny,
out of my own experience (Buddhist) I can tell you one short story about killing someone suffering terribly.
Back home in Spain, my beloved Dog was dying in agony and so I asked my teatcher if we could sacrifice her.
But he told me not to do so for the following reason.
This suffering, actually was the purifying of some old and heavy karma and that she had to go through this. but we where allowed to pain killers wich helped her very much. My teatcher also told me that if we sacrifice her before her time, that in her next life she will have to go through much more and stronger suffering. and due to this purification her next life will be much better and auspicious.
I don't need to tell you how hard this was for me and my family. but we obeyed my master and she finally died suffering but without pain.
For some of you this will be shocking but I have absolute confidence in my teatcher as he also told me that he will be watching her and help her.
Just recently, in my meditation I connected with her and felt this deep peace and happiness in her soul and she was ready to reincarnate. She might be because yesterday she wasn't there anymore and I cannot connect with her new incarnation as this will be inapropiate.
Stay healthy


Hi Stan, nice thread. I seem to remember in my study of the Seth materials years ago that he said the amount of guilt or the kind energy you felt, not the act itself, would cause the karmic reaction. I would never be able to find this reference, so I'll just have to offer it as a memory.

For example, compare a murder committed in rage or lust, to that of a spouse who kills a terminally ill loved one in order to end their suffering. The latter would require love so great that it is hard to comprehend.

Both legally would be called murder. But, will the karma be the same, or will it be a reflection of the energy of the event?

I guess I just created another question. Thanks for bringing up this interesting subject, I look forward to a good discussion.

Ginny

aranuk
27th October 2014, 23:31
Ok. very interesting thread. and I will try to give some explanations as good as possible. From a Buddhist view.
Ok, the first thing to know about Karma is that it's just the word wich stands to the relation between cause and effect.
If you agree that every cause has an effect, then you believe in Karma. There can be no doubt.
As we've been reincarnated for eons of kalpas(wich just stays for an really long time) we have accumulated Karma.
There is no good or bad Karma, as Karma has no quality.
So, every action you did, in mind, speach or action, plants a seed of Karma in your eternal soul.
When you are lucky this seed will ripen right away and you have to deal with it right away. in this case the effect is not so strong with wich you have to deal.
The other case is more unpleasant when the seed needs longer to ripen and comes f.e. in the next lifetime or later.
The more time passes by and you cannot work out this Karma the stronger and more powerfull it becomes.



a) If a person murders another person, would it be ok if someone murders him. Did the murderer
deserve to be killed?
b) If a person murders more than one person should he be murdered again in another life. i.e. Once in every lifetime as he cannot be murdered more than once in a lifetime.

Ok. In this case it's not easy apart from the one thing that you shall not kill. not even a murderer. with one ecception.
If you are aware that one person is going to kill a lot of people, so to avoid for him to accumulate this Karma you may kill him.
So that you avoid the suffering of so many with the short suffering of one person. This I heard in the teaching of one great Tibetan master as it had happend long time ago.


c) What if a person is responsible for killing thousands of people? What should his Karma be?

You cannot decide the Karma. what you refer to is justice or judgement. and I'm not advanced enough to know wich Karma he's getting back


d) If a person cheats an old vulnerable woman out of £20,00 and someone steals his car worth 10k is the car thief guilty of anything? Or is the person who stole the old woman’s money a victim or did he deserve it? Did the car thief really steal the car of the old lady?

I'd say he got lucky to be able to repay the Karma right away. ( but someone with a 10k car, does he need to cheat for 20 pounds)

e) Is it ok to cheat a cheat? Is it ok to murder a murderer? Is it ok to deceive a deceiver? Is it ok to defile a pedophile?

Never use the eye for an eye method as it will create some heavier Karma for yourself.


f) is a murderer a bad person or is he just avenging a murder in the previous life????

A murderer is always a bad person because he laks compassion and loving kindness. and it's possible that he's avenging but not sure, because the law of cause and effect is very complex.

g) does vengeance = karma

Never, vengance only leads to more vengance and you will get lost in this spiral of violence.

h)Can anyone really interfere with another person's karma?

You're doing it all the time, when you interfere with someone. by talking, thinking or acting.
That's why His Holliness the Dalai Lama said once. treat everyone as higher as yourself. I guess he will tell us with this. that's how to avoid planting a negative seed.

I hope I've been of help.
Have a great day and stay healthy

Many thanks Michael for your comments they are well received. I meant £20,000 twenty thousand pounds, I missed a zero. And his car was worth ten thousand pounds.

h) what I meant Michael, was if someone say was born into poverty and neglect and as a baby he was rescued by someone and brought up with love and kindness and also a decent standard of living, would that interfere with the babies karma? Lets say the soul in the spiritual realm decided to be born into a problem family to endure the neglect etc, wouldn't the fact that it was rescued from this environment be classified as interference from another in his karma? Would the baby when it was older not strive unconsciously to experience a certain neglect and poverty?
Bearing in mind that I have read that we cannot avoid our Karma. Perhaps we can avoid Karma. I too have read some authors who say this is not only possible but it is recommended.

Stan

Latti
28th October 2014, 01:01
From what I've heard from Near Death Experience-rs, Nanci Danison does an excellent job of explaining what seems like Karma. Nothing is forced upon us. We choose what we experience.

aranuk
28th October 2014, 02:38
From what I've heard from Near Death Experience-rs, Nanci Danison does an excellent job of explaining what seems like Karma. Nothing is forced upon us. We choose what we experience.

Hi Latti I agree with the idea that nothing is forced on us and we also choose what we experience. I also think as you do that what she explains sounds to me like Karma but with a different viewpoint. All I am asking is that we look at it from different aspects so we may have a clearer picture what it entails or what it excludes. We can of course include Nanci's description after all I myself do not understand all the ins and outs of this business.

Stan

Craig
28th October 2014, 03:10
I used to believe in karma, probably more towards an Eastern view, but now I am not too sure, lets say there is karma - it does strike me that there could be certain people\influences that seem to be outside the karmic wheel and seem to be able to get away literally with murder.

I find it hard to put into words what I think now, whether or not it is based on the idea of pre\post life arrangements, or suffering to learn lessons (why do we need lessons? - that is for another post) the only way I can best describe it and it is a poor description at best is that it is so complex that in the scheme of things we are like single cell life and that evolution\ascension what have you is so far in front that things like good\bad are not there. It would be like saying that perhaps karma is a 3D invention and at higher levels there is no need, does that make sense? If karma does exist could be from an unconscious viewpoint of certain individuals at certain paths along the lengthy process?

that is perhaps why I am liking the idea that all this around us is a holographic computer like projection - where else but in the realms of a computer program can we have so many ideals\beliefs and no one truth seems to raise supreme - the sad thing is that we are so quick to kill others who do not believe in our chosen beliefs

but I am now thinking about karma so you have fired my shaky synapses - from a YOLO perspective karma does seem far fetched but in the minds of those who truly believe they come back it isn't so strange - a pity about that bloody veil of forgetfulness.

Omni
28th October 2014, 03:50
I used to believe in karma, probably more towards an Eastern view, but now I am not too sure, lets say there is karma - it does strike me that there could be certain people\influences that seem to be outside the karmic wheel and seem to be able to get away literally with murder.

I find it hard to put into words what I think now, whether or not it is based on the idea of pre\post life arrangements, or suffering to learn lessons (why do we need lessons? - that is for another post) the only way I can best describe it and it is a poor description at best is that it is so complex that in the scheme of things we are like single cell life and that evolution\ascension what have you is so far in front that things like good\bad are not there. It would be like saying that perhaps karma is a 3D invention and at higher levels there is no need, does that make sense? If karma does exist could be from an unconscious viewpoint of certain individuals at certain paths along the lengthy process?

that is perhaps why I am liking the idea that all this around us is a holographic computer like projection - where else but in the realms of a computer program can we have so many ideals\beliefs and no one truth seems to raise supreme - the sad thing is that we are so quick to kill others who do not believe in our chosen beliefs

but I am now thinking about karma so you have fired my shaky synapses - from a YOLO perspective karma does seem far fetched but in the minds of those who truly believe they come back it isn't so strange - a pity about that bloody veil of forgetfulness.
I think you are right in ways about higher realms not having any karma. I don't believe the hype about ascension at all. I think it's a big psy op. But I do firmly believe that 'evil' (advanced)extraterrestrials do not have karma for their actions. It also seems their minions(some of them) may not experience karma until their reign is over.

I don't think there is a natural law of karma in existence. I think it related to cause and effect, and the real laws of attraction. You get what you give(in some cases). What you put in you can get out. But these are not absolute.

I have nothing but good karma in this lifetime if it was existent. Yet I receive torture etc on a daily basis from the cabal's technology. I made a few mistakes when younger but I learned from them. I think generally if we learn from mistakes, and have the intention to do better for ourselves and others, there is no need for karma at all.

Also, one issue, is mind control. Some people wouldn't do the things they do without mind control. So giving them karma for something beyond their control isn't right IMO.

Aragorn
28th October 2014, 04:44
I happen to be of the opinion that Karma and Re-incarnation are facts of life. I have experienced Karma in different ways on many occasions. I have experienced Instant Karma on quite a number of times, no doubt at all in my mind. I read most about Karma by reading Rudolf Steiners' 8 volumes on Karma. He gave an enormous amount of instances and descriptions in these works, however there were many questions I kept coming up with that he had never explained. Here are a few that has kept my mind busy for some time. Please excuse my writing on this as I have a tendency to go all over the place without any explanation. It is an incredible concept with many implications.

The wisest of men for thousands of years have known about it and in many eastern religions it is a given. It is said to be a just system and absolutely fair to everyone. Why some retribution doesn't appear in the same lifetime and has to be postponed to the next lifetime or even the one after that doesn't seem to have an explanation. Maybe the next lifetime is a fairer retribution, who knows.

Here are a few questions of my own and in some I have had to try to answer myself. If anyone here feels they want to answer any feel free and in fact I will encourage you to do so. If you want to pose a question please do that too!

Karmic dilemmas

a) If a person murders another person, would it be ok if someone murders him. Did the murderer
deserve to be killed?

Negative. Karma is not punishment. It is a mechanism for the restoration of a balance which was upset, and which as a result brings (more) knowledge and understanding to the person on the receiving end of the karma. It's a way to breed responsibility, if you will.

To stay with your example, if a person murders another person and does not feel remorse, then that balance will have to be restored, and then it is possible that the murderer himself will get murdered, or even more likely, that this person will experience that members of his/her family become murdered, and as such, he/she will see "the other side of the coin" that he/she himself/herself once flipped.



b) If a person murders more than one person should he be murdered again in another life. i.e. Once in every lifetime as he cannot be murdered more than once in a lifetime.

Same thing as above. It's not about "justice" as humans perceive it, but about learning from one's mistakes.



c) What if a person is responsible for killing thousands of people? What should his Karma be?


It would be whatever Creation sees fit to teach that person that mass murder is unacceptable.



d) If a person cheats an old vulnerable woman out of £20,00 and someone steals his car worth 10k is the car thief guilty of anything? Or is the person who stole the old woman’s money a victim or did he deserve it? Did the car thief really steal the car of the old lady?


It is not a matter of "worse than"/"better than". If the person who cheated the old lady gets his car stolen, then that too may already be a form of karma. He took something that doesn't belong to him, and he had something else that did belong to him taken away from him again. And if he doesn't learn from that, then the lesson will be repeated until he does.



e) Is it ok to cheat a cheat? Is it ok to murder a murderer? Is it ok to deceive a deceiver? Is it ok to defile a pedophile?


Cheating a cheater can be a strategic move in order to prevent harm being done to others, just like assassinating a mass murderer can be a means to prevent the mass murder. However, depending on the circumstances, these acts may themselves also trigger karma. A pedophile may end up in a next life where they themselves become the victim of sexual assault.



f) is a murderer a bad person or is he just avenging a murder in the previous life????


"Murder" is a concept which has many different meanings. For instance, according to the legislation in many countries, there is a distinction between murder committed by an ordinary citizen and murder committed by the so-called intelligence agencies. The latter are murders as well, but the law does not consider them to be murders as they are considered "extralegal killings". And that in itself is such a shady concept that it's nigh impossible to believe in the justification of such a killing.

However, as I have stated higher up, if you were given access to a time machine and you could go back to Germany in 1939, and you had a gun with you, and you would be somewhere within shooting range of Adolf Hitler, then would you shoot him or not? Let's ignore the mechanics of altering the time line for a minute, because in reality, if you were to shoot him, then you would only be branching off a new time line, and nothing will have changed on the time line that you originate from and travelled to the past from.

So let's ignore that, because if you alter the time line, then you will be branching off a new time line, and then that one will become your own time line. And as such, by shooting Hitler, you would be saving a lot of people on your time line. You might possibly be preventing World War II - at least, if we assume that Hitler himself was the only reason as to why World War II got started - but you would only be doing that on your own new time line. Technically, you would be an assassin, because it's a political killing. But if you were a government operative for the allied forces, then that assassination would be perfectly legal, wouldn't it?

However, let's make it less complicated. How about simply the concept of killing someone in order to save one or multiple innocent persons' lives? How about killing someone out of self-defense, and without the intent to kill but with the death of the assailant as a result nevertheless? Does that make you a murderer?

Another thing to contemplate with regard to your question is that very few people have past life recollection without some external means to help them remember, such as a hypnotic regression. So for most part, if someone commits a murder, then they are responsible for that murder only with the knowledge they have in their present lifetime. Of course, there could be extraneous intervention, such as a so-called demonic possession - or otherwise put: a walk-in situation where a non-physical being temporarily takes over the body of a mortal being - or there could be something going on like the kind of programming in the movie The Manchurian Candidate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manchurian_Candidate_%282004_film%29), where the person committing the murder/assassination is actually programmed to suddenly find themselves in an entirely different situation than what they perceive. In their mind, they could be committing self-defense, or shooting someone in order to protect another person against an immediate threat from the person they're shooting, while in reality, they are simply standing somewhere in a public place, holding a gun, and shooting a (usually) innocent person because of some hallucination. In that, they would be no different from a schizophrenic who shoots someone while hallucinating.

There are many dimensions to the concept of terminating another person's life. Not all of them need to apply, but whichever applies, that is what will define how Creation will handle the situation with regard to the soul of the person doing the killing.



g) does vengeance = karma


No, but vengeance can be a tool for karma.



h)Can anyone really interfere with another person's karma?


That's another complicated issue. A person committing some kind of crime can be forgiven, but the question remains whether that person has learned anything from it. Has that person realized that what they did was wrong? Have they tried to make amends? Do they feel guilty? If not, then Creation will make sure that they learn their lesson either way.



Steiner said that if we knew what our Karma was we could avoid doing it. This is why sometimes an innocuous event can change our path in life. I have explained my own experience on a thread a few years ago here. I will try to find it.


Governments make laws to keep the population under control. These laws are not necessary just. We may brake a government law but does that make us a real criminal. Criminals seem to have another code of practice which has nothing to do with a government law. Different Governments have different laws to suit their own agendas.

I wonder what common law says about this. I know that the golden rule is not to hurt someone else, not to steal someone’s property etc.


Stan

Common law is a misnomer. Here on Earth, laws are created by a minority - who themselves usually do not observe those very laws - in order to rule over the majority. There is however such a concept as ethics, but ethics are themselves also multidimensional. Depending on the level of consciousness/awareness, different sets of ethics may apply, and there are also culturally imposed ethics.

For instance, in many Arabic and African cultures, it is perfectly okay to marry a little girl and have sexual intercourse with her. The Islamic prophet Mohammed married a girl when she was 6 years old and "consumed the marriage" when she was 9. To us, that would be considered pedophilia. To Mohammed and the culture he grew up in, that was perfectly normal, even if only because anything female was automatically considered subordinate and inferior to a man. In many Arab cultures, this still holds true today. If a man commits a murder and the victim is a woman, his punishment will be less severe than if he had killed a man instead.

At the level of Source itself, ethics do not exist, because Source does not have feelings and does not judge. For Source, everything is good and justified, because everything will lead to understanding, and being pure consciousness, that's exactly what Source wants. However, at the levels surrounding Source, and in the different universes, ethics do come into play, and they will differ upon the level of consciousness.

Also, "not hurting another person" is a much bigger concept than you can imagine. You may be hurting someone without that you (or they) realize at that particular point in time, possibly - as in the case of Mohammed's child bride - because they don't have the mental maturity to actually know what's going on, and in their naiveté, they might actually be consenting to the act you commit against them.

Another example is that of the overbearing parents, who inflict emotional and psychological damage upon their children without that they realize, because they think that what they do is in the child's best interest, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that karma is not a matter of "black & white". It is much, much more convoluted than that.

21g
28th October 2014, 15:32
Hi Stan, Karma is impossible to grasp on one level and as simple
cause and effect on another. I dont believe we can see the mechanics of it `til we are uber advanced, spiritually.
Fluent in the language of paradox, i guess.

I think Aragorn has more or less summed up my take on it. But, paradoxically i sort of agree with most of the opinions so far.
I guess that makes me a literal Karma chameleon. Must be my Karma :)

G.

Wind
28th October 2014, 15:54
"It's a basic principle of the Universe that every action will create an equal and opposing reaction."

We all have to go trough samsara and we have free will so that we can experience this creation as relatively sovereign beings and that's why we are susceptible to karma. It is what it is and we'll just have to face the fact that there will be certain issues and lessons in our lives, only forgiveness and love will eventually set us free. Chances are that the more you have endured in this life, the purer your soul will eventually become. I know that we all hate struggles (I certainly do), but we are alive and that's why we experience suffering and joy too. It's not all suffering and it's not all joy, it's both. May we hope to find more peace and balance in all of our lives.

Michael Moewes
28th October 2014, 19:41
Hi Stan,
This is by far the easiest question.
As the child was born into poverty his Karma already has been purified. So if You're in this situation and you accept this Karma as it is, without fighting against it. then the Karma will be purified faster.
So, to the addoption of this child. if this child has purified enough it's Karma and the seeds for this addoption has been grown, then the child will have a better circumstances. but it's entirely up to the childs education, in wich way it will develop.
If there is a certain tendencies to go back to this poor environements. this is what it is, but has nothing to do with Karma as Karma is only the law of cause and effect.
Ok, for about to avoid Karma, I say better not try to avoid it when it comes to you. accept it and deal with it in a compassive way.
But on the other hand it's very important to not create negative Karma. this should be avoided at any costs.

I hope this was helping You. and I wish you a healthy day.
Michael

Btw. I never had the Karma to have to eat Hagis. and I still hope this will not happen. ;)

h) what I meant Michael, was if someone say was born into poverty and neglect and as a baby he was rescued by someone and brought up with love and kindness and also a decent standard of living, would that interfere with the babies karma? Lets say the soul in the spiritual realm decided to be born into a problem family to endure the neglect etc, wouldn't the fact that it was rescued from this environment be classified as interference from another in his karma? Would the baby when it was older not strive unconsciously to experience a certain neglect and poverty?
Bearing in mind that I have read that we cannot avoid our Karma. Perhaps we can avoid Karma. I too have read some authors who say this is not only possible but it is recommended.

Stan[/QUOTE]

aranuk
28th October 2014, 22:21
Michael actually My daughter died when her son was just 10 weeks old, she was 21. My wife and I "rescued" my grandson from his abusive father who used to beat up my daughter. My wife and I are still caring for our grandson who is now 25. He was a great joy in our lives until he developed bi-polar disorder at age 16. Up till then he was a nice boy and very caring towards everyone. he is now on medication for bi-polar and seems hell bent on either ending up in jail or in abject poverty. This I feel might have been the case if we had not "rescued" him. So I often wonder to myself if I have interfered by the rescue operation.

Stan

Michael Moewes
29th October 2014, 05:47
awesome Stan. so this is true Karma. I don't know a lot about bi-polar.
It's great that you take care of him. so you're helping his an your Karma, as you have Karma together.
Have to go working. I'll be back.
Live healthy

Michael


Michael actually My daughter died when her son was just 10 weeks old, she was 21. My wife and I "rescued" my grandson from his abusive father who used to beat up my daughter. My wife and I are still caring for our grandson who is now 25. He was a great joy in our lives until he developed bi-polar disorder at age 16. Up till then he was a nice boy and very caring towards everyone. he is now on medication for bi-polar and seems hell bent on either ending up in jail or in abject poverty. This I feel might have been the case if we had not "rescued" him. So I often wonder to myself if I have interfered by the rescue operation.

Stan