Seventieth Anniversary of the Liberation of Auschwitz

[Gaia]

January 27 2015 marks seventy years since the liberation of Auschwitz, the largest camp established by the Germans. A complex of camps, Auschwitz included a concentration camp, killing center, and forced-labor camps.

In 2014, U.N. resolution "to condemn glorification of nazism"

3 countries voted against:

U.S.
Canada
Ukraine

This tragedy must be with us, the memory of it must be kept alive, until humanity reaches a collective point where it truly cannot happen again.

Survivor stories are a ray of bright light, it seems to me. People who survived atrocities but were left with their humanity somehow intact. It beggars belief, but at the same time, there it is...

Please abstinence from the “Like useful” button for this thread!

Share your thoughts, update News or add beautiful flowers or peaceful music, prayers, poetry as you like in the comments section below!

We Will Never Forget Auschwitz....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/world/the-holocausts-last-generation/2015/01/22/6fe2232a-a255-11e4-91fc-7dff95a14458_video.html

[ZooLife]

January 27 2015 marks seventy years since the liberation of Auschwitz, the largest camp established by the Germans. A complex of camps, Auschwitz included a concentration camp, killing center, and forced-labor camps.

In 2014, U.N. resolution "to condemn glorification of nazism"




To condemn glorification of Nazism is a backdoor glorification of Nazism, oddly enough.

[Gaia]

January 27 2015 marks seventy years since the liberation of Auschwitz, the largest camp established by the Germans. A complex of camps, Auschwitz included a concentration camp, killing center, and forced-labor camps.

In 2014, U.N. resolution "to condemn glorification of nazism"




To condemn glorification of Nazism is a backdoor glorification of Nazism, oddly enough.



The one that always confuses everyone is...

HH3ruuml-R4

[Shezbeth]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

[Gaia]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

I hope not...

[eb219]

Well for what it's worth, tomorrow is the 27th. This is one of the best articles I've read on the subject:

http://jan27.org/what-was-auschwitz/

[Cidersomerset]

Auschwitz Liberation 70th Anniversary: Visitor increase ahead of Holocaust Remembrance Day

Up5Q5hvtTJw

==================================================

This should be a reflection to those who died and were brutally abused
tortured , separated from loved ones and worked/starved/ beaton /shot
hung on portable gallows . injected and experimented on and by other
methods to be replaced by the next batch......

There is no excuse for this treatment for anyone it happened in China, The Soviet
Union, and many other places since the end of WW2 Korea, Vietnam ,South
America . Africa particularly Rwanda back to Europe in the former Yugoslavia,
Middle East ,Afghanistan right up to ironically Abu Grave ,Gitmo , Gaza and
Ukraine and Syria and many secret torture facilities still around the world.

This was made withfootage taken by Russian camera men at the time of its
liberartion, with other material.......

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Liberation of Auschwitz (includes 1945 original Red Army footage)

0V0RMf2qU18

Published on 23 Jan 2015

Warning - This historical documentary contains some explicit Scenes
that are of a violent nature and may be disturbing to some viewers!

This Film contains footage taken by Soviet cameramen after the
liberation of the Auschwitz camp in January 27, 1945.Among other
things, it depicts the camp area immediately after entry by the First
Ukrainian Front of the Red Army.

Documentary pictures are interspersed with an interview with
Alexander Vorontzov, the cameraman who accompanied the
Red Army soldiers and did most of the filming. The whole is
accompanied by commentary describing, among others, the
selection and extermination process, medical experiments
and everyday life in the Auschwitz concentration camp.

The film was previously released in 1985, for the 40th
anniversary of the liberation of the camp. The commentary
accompanying the current edition of the film reflects the
latest findings

by researchers studying the KL Auschwitz.

The Auschwitz Camp is a world symbol to the Holocaust,
genocide and terror. Never before in the history of mankind
were so many people murdered in a planned and industrial
manner in such a small area.

In the years 1940-1945, German Nazis brought here over a
million Jews, nearly 150 thousand Poles, 23 thousand Roma,
15 thousand Soviet prisoners of war and over ten thousand
prisoners from other nations.

A vast majority of them perished in the camp.

This film is dedicated to their memory.

Runtime: 52 minutes, Production year: 1985, Director: Irmgard von zur Muehlen


Category
Education


Licence
Standard YouTube Licence

[Gaia]

It's so important to tech our kids and grand kids of what people did do it does not happen again. There is no way to understand postwar Europe and the world without an in depth confrontation between our idea of mankind and the remains of Auschwitz.
"THEY EXPECTED THE WORST - NOT THE UNTHINKABLE."


TVRMIid9Xiw


Tomas Radil was just 13 when he was taken to Auschwitz, here he recalls what happened to him after the camp was liberated.

"It might be some different type of holocaust but when you have people that are unsatisfied, frustrated, who lack a lot and have no goal, and someone comes and provides them with a goal, some sort of goal, they can unite in hatred."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11369448/Watch-Holocaust-survivor-recalls-life-after-Auschwitz.html

[Gaia]

It' making me cry everytime and hopeful about mankind : Holocaust Survivors Tell the Stories of Their Childhood

MtxA5C74Cfk

Etta Katz she persevered from two notorious concentration camps: Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. This feature covers her life pre, during and post-war. There's an entire generation of survivors that will be extinct in the next decade or so. Before we know it, video interviews will be the only medium to watch, listen, learn and share this tragic, but inspiring story...

HeixVrnS7r8



The horrors of Nazi imprisonment clearly didn't apply to everyone as shown by this video, but for Jews, Russians and many others especially in the east it definitely was one of the worst crimes in history as shown by many other accounts of the holocaust.

http://youtu.be/8XSj9XgXA5Q

[Gaia]

0V0RMf2qU18

Published on 23 Jan 2015

Warning - This historical documentary contains some explicit Scenes
that are of a violent nature and may be disturbing to some viewers!

This Film contains footage taken by Soviet cameramen after the
liberation of the Auschwitz camp in January 27, 1945.Among other
things, it depicts the camp area immediately after entry by the First
Ukrainian Front of the Red Army.

Documentary pictures are interspersed with an interview with
Alexander Vorontzov, the cameraman who accompanied the
Red Army soldiers and did most of the filming. The whole is
accompanied by commentary describing, among others, the
selection and extermination process, medical experiments
and everyday life in the Auschwitz concentration camp.

The film was previously released in 1985, for the 40th
anniversary of the liberation of the camp. The commentary
accompanying the current edition of the film reflects the
latest findings

by researchers studying the KL Auschwitz.

The Auschwitz Camp is a world symbol to the Holocaust,
genocide and terror. Never before in the history of mankind
were so many people murdered in a planned and industrial
manner in such a small area.

In the years 1940-1945, German Nazis brought here over a
million Jews, nearly 150 thousand Poles, 23 thousand Roma,
15 thousand Soviet prisoners of war and over ten thousand
prisoners from other nations.

A vast majority of them perished in the camp.

This film is dedicated to their memory.

Runtime: 52 minutes, Production year: 1985, Director: Irmgard von zur Muehlen


Category
Education


Licence
Standard YouTube Licence[/QUOTE]

Wow this is great!!!! It's remind me a série on TV 5 Apocalypse a must to see but it's in French.

[cruza-1]

I know two survivors from Auschwitz, both Polish woman. Never in my life time have I met such gentle and humble humans.
Their aura of tranquility is something to be experienced and revered. To think of the horrors they experienced as children, (as told to me) yet to be so humbling in old age is beyond a miracle.
If more people adopted their attitudes in and with life, life would be a much better experience.

Off topic (sort off) I also knew (R.I.P) a survivor from Thai-Burma Railway WW2, again, the most gentlest man I have ever known.
Never a bad word or thought uttered by any of these gentle and frail humans.

[Gaia]

I know two survivors from Auschwitz, both Polish woman. Never in my life time have I met such gentle and humble humans.
Their aura of tranquility is something to be experienced and revered. To think of the horrors they experienced as children, (as told to me) yet to be so humbling in old age is beyond a miracle.
If more people adopted their attitudes in and with life, life would be a much better experience.

Off topic (sort off) I also knew (R.I.P) a survivor from Thai-Burma Railway WW2, again, the most gentlest man I have ever known.
Never a bad word or thought uttered by any of these gentle and frail humans.

Thank you for your kind comment!

My interpretation is optimistic: today’s young people feel that freedom is a privilege that one cannot do without, no matter what. For them, consequently, the idea of prison is immediately linked to the idea of escape or revolt. In camps with a majority of Jews, like Auschwitz, an active or passive defense was particularly difficult. The prisoners were, for the most part, devoid of any kind of organizational or military experience. They came from every country in Europe, and spoke different languages. They had suffered greater starvation, and were weaker and more exhausted than the rest; they often had behind them a long history of hunger, persecution, and humiliation in the ghettos. The length of their stays in the camps were tragically brief. They were, in short, a fluctuating population, continually decimated by death, and renewed by the endless arrival of new convoys. I would like to add one final thought. The deeply rooted consciousness that we not consent to oppression, but instead must resist it, was not widespread in fascist Europe, and it was particularly weak in Italy. It was the patrimony of a restricted circle of politically active people.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

I hope not...

Why, are you a Holocaust survivor?

Stigmas and taboos are funny things.

On what days can we celebrate the 20 million or so people that Stalin had murdered?

[ZooLife]

It's so important to tech our kids and grand kids of what people did do it does not happen again. There is no way to understand postwar Europe and the world without an in depth confrontation between our idea of mankind and the remains of Auschwitz.

"THEY EXPECTED THE WORST - NOT THE UNTHINKABLE."



I wonder went through the minds of the liberators when they witnessed this place. It really looks like a version of hell. The liberators must have had to focus on their duties. Perhaps most of them were kept to a specific duty and did not witness the full evidence of it's tragic grand scale until sometime later.

It boggles the mind to scale of evil that existed in the past right up to this very day.

[Karma Ninja]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

I hope not...

Why, are you a Holocaust survivor?

Stigmas and taboos are funny things.

On what days can we celebrate the 20 million or so people that Stalin had murdered?

That sounds like a great idea bsbray! You should start a thread honouring the lives lost and suffering inflicted by Stalin. However this thread might not be the best place to start that conversation. It seems like it would distract from the sentiment put forward by Gaia in this thread.

Whether you believe the official story or question the numbers of the holocaust is irrelevant. It is undeniable that many lives were lost in Auschwitz and in other similar camps. Those lives deserve a moment of reflection...

[Karma Ninja]

I am worried that we are repeating some of our mistakes in the present day too! Remember Auschwitz and recall it's horrors or else we may forget the horrors taking place in military prisons around the world this very moment.

The CIA torture report contained details straight out of a horror movie and there are many "blacksites" where untold atrocities and horrors are being committed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

[ZooLife]

I wonder after reading conflicting information about life in the camps if it is because each is seeing the elephant in the room from a different perspective.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m59kgnTbUJ1qfvq9bo2_r1_1280.jpg

[Gaia]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

I hope not...

Why, are you a Holocaust survivor?

Stigmas and taboos are funny things.

On what days can we celebrate the 20 million or so people that Stalin had murdered?

That sounds like a great idea bsbray! You should start a thread honouring the lives lost and suffering inflicted by Stalin. However this thread might not be the best place to start that conversation. It seems like it would distract from the sentiment put forward by Gaia in this thread.

Whether you believe the official story or question the numbers of the holocaust is irrelevant. It is undeniable that many lives were lost in Auschwitz and in other similar camps. Those lives deserve a moment of reflection...

Those lives deserve a moment of reflection... Thank you so much for that...

[johnh]

Auschwitz was very bad, no doubt, but there was worse..............

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/10/15/rape-and-sex-in-german-cities-after-world-war-ii-revisited-part-ii/

Read it and weep for this is apt to happen again if humanity does not
become responsible for itself.

[Gaia]

Is this going to turn into another "There's more to the holocaust than the official story" thread?

I hope not...

Why, are you a Holocaust survivor?

Stigmas and taboos are funny things.

On what days can we celebrate the 20 million or so people that Stalin had murdered?

I think its extremely difficult for people to comprehend evil and accept that human beings are capable of unspeakable things. Just try to imagine being 10 years of age and being shipped to eleven death camps, and the Germans all over the place trying to exterminate you ? Then surviving them all!

I pray to you guy!

Just naive has I'am... I just thought that this thread was going to be about humility and courage for this survivors.

[cruza-1]

It's so important to tech our kids and grand kids of what people did do it does not happen again. There is no way to understand postwar Europe and the world without an in depth confrontation between our idea of mankind and the remains of Auschwitz.

"THEY EXPECTED THE WORST - NOT THE UNTHINKABLE."



I wonder went through the minds of the liberators when they witnessed this place. It really looks like a version of hell. The liberators must have had to focus on their duties. Perhaps most of them were kept to a specific duty and did not witness the full evidence of it's tragic grand scale until sometime later.

It boggles the mind to scale of evil that existed in the past right up to this very day.

I get teary watching the video's, documentaries and movies ... unimaginable the sadness and emotional trauma that would have been experienced as a liberator (human being). The survivors, the liberators and the witnesses carry those images in their minds for the rest of their lives.

I honor and respect them ALL for their fortitude in surviving the horrors they were made to endure, and the lessons they teach us. They ALL earned the right to be remembered. 'Lest We Forget'

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I think its extremely difficult for people to comprehend evil and accept that human beings are capable of unspeakable things. Just try to imagine being 10 years of age and being shipped to eleven death camps, and the Germans all over the place trying to exterminate you ? Then surviving them all!

It's not hard for me to comprehend that people do evil things. What's hard for me to comprehend is why so many people act like this is the worst thing that ever happening in the history of humanity, ever, when at the same time Stalin killed over twice as many people and you don't even get to hear their sad stories because no one was still around to write them down.

Mao killed about 30 million people even according to the current Chinese government.

Americans killed millions of Native Americans, estimated to have been equivalent to the entire population of western Europe at that same time.


These things are all sad and deserve to be reflected upon. But while you are doing your reflecting, reflect upon how politicized the Holocaust has become and how it is still used for political reasons today. Because this is exactly why non-religious people will preach sermons about the Holocaust but then know or care nothing about much greater atrocities that mankind has committed.

What makes me sick is that the Holocaust is used for political reasons, and is made into a taboo subject to even discuss in a logical way because of the equally disguisting aura of religiosity that culture has surrounded it with, as if the Holocaust itself is the messianic Jesus of the New World Order. Yes, you may admit in a clinical way that worse things have happened to larger groups of people, but we can talk about that later (as in, never), because something more important is being discussed now -- something with a real political meaning.


When you people want to get up on your soap box about the horrible things that happened at the Holocaust, and how concerned you want to act like you are about genocide and the massacre of millions of people, I just want to know where your threads mourning Stalin's murders are, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's. There aren't any. Because it's not been politicized, and so you really don't care. You might act like it for the sake of arguing with me, but be honest with yourselves, because you aren't fooling me. You don't really mourn mass deaths. You selectively mourn one event. And so you are participating in nothing but a sick political agenda that has been forced onto the dead, whether you like to realize this or not.

[cruza-1]

I personally recognise 'this event at this time' and it is the Anniversary ... as per the thread.

I have the same feelings when my parents talk to me about what they endured during WW2 in the London Blitz. At different times during the course of the year I remember various global conflicts, especially ANZAC Day, Australians, New Zealanders and Turkish, being 4th generation military and ex military myself and loosing family members and friends.

Being as this thread is about Auschwitz and not other atrocities which have occurred in history I will not make mention of them here.

I do not think I am on a soap box ... but 'Respectful'

[Karma Ninja]

It's not hard for me to comprehend that people do evil things. What's hard for me to comprehend is why so many people act like this is the worst thing that ever happening in the history of humanity, ever, when at the same time Stalin killed over twice as many people and you don't even get to hear their sad stories because no one was still around to write them down.

Mao killed about 30 million people even according to the current Chinese government.

Americans killed millions of Native Americans, estimated to have been equivalent to the entire population of western Europe at that same time.


These things are all sad and deserve to be reflected upon. But while you are doing your reflecting, reflect upon how politicized the Holocaust has become and how it is still used for political reasons today. Because this is exactly why non-religious people will preach sermons about the Holocaust but then know or care nothing about much greater atrocities that mankind has committed.

What makes me sick is that the Holocaust is used for political reasons, and is made into a taboo subject to even discuss in a logical way because of the equally disguisting aura of religiosity that culture has surrounded it with, as if the Holocaust itself is the messianic Jesus of the New World Order. Yes, you may admit in a clinical way that worse things have happened to larger groups of people, but we can talk about that later (as in, never), because something more important is being discussed now -- something with a real political meaning.


When you people want to get up on your soap box about the horrible things that happened at the Holocaust, and how concerned you want to act like you are about genocide and the massacre of millions of people, I just want to know where your threads mourning Stalin's murders are, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's. There aren't any. Because it's not been politicized, and so you really don't care. You might act like it for the sake of arguing with me, but be honest with yourselves, because you aren't fooling me. You don't really mourn mass deaths. You selectively mourn one event. And so you are participating in nothing but a sick political agenda that has been forced onto the dead, whether you like to realize this or not.

Some valid points in there bsbray but you are the one who is truly missing the point of the post. If you wish to disrespect people for honouring this event than so be it. I personally value each and every life the same and don't hold the horrors of WWII against either side. War makes people do terrible things. No one is on a soap box but you. No one here is comparing the holocaust to any of those other events but you. You are simply missing the obvious connection between the anniversary and the thread.

It is simply unfair for you to question anyone's motives and criticize people for not mentioning other atrocities that have no connection to this anniversary. What are your motives for so venomously attacking a post regarding the closing of Auschwitz and filling it with anti-holocaust rhetoric? You do realize that non Jewish people died in these camps too right? It's not just the Jewish holocaust. It was a systematic slaughter. A failure of humanity.

Why are the people who want to honour the end of something horrible lumped together with your statement:

"When you people want to get up on your soap box about the horrible things that happened at the Holocaust"? Blah...blah...blah...

Which "people" are you referring to? Is it the Jewish people? I am Japanese Canadian so that would seem an unlikely motivation for me. Did anyone somehow identify themselves as "people who don't care about other mass murders and only want to recognize the holocaust"? Nope.

The reason you seldom hear about the atrocities of Stalin, or the mass killings of Mao and Pol Pot, or the genocide committed against Native North Americans is because the victors are the ones who get to tell the story. Our education system is built on teaching historical lies and conveniently ignores or omits the awful truths. The media we have in North America is skewed in a certain way and right now it favours the Jewish version of the story. Why didn't you mention the internment of the Japanese in Canada and the US and point out the torture, deaths and stripping of constitutional rights we endured? (It would seem obvious that it has nothing to do with the post but that's just me) Because you never brought them up, is it fair for me to say that you 'obviously' don't care about the slaughter of innocent Vietnamese by American Soldiers during that war, or the genocide committed against the Aboriginals in Australia, or the mass killings of Asians all along the Pacific coasts by the Japanese, or the cultural genocide committed against Native South Americans or the atrocities committed by the Christians against Jews and Muslims during the crusades or the ruthless bombing the Allied forces committed against Dresden, or the tens of thousands killed in the Iraq war, etc...etc...etc...? No. It is ridiculous for me to make those assumptions. Simply because they weren't mentioned doesn't mean they aren't considered or respected. It has more to do with the fact that today is not their anniversary. There are plenty of other threads on Avalon regarding those other atrocities.

Even if it was only a million Jews and hundreds of thousands of other nationalities, it is worth remembering the loss of life on the anniversary of the closing of one of the camps where the murders took place. It's about common decency and respect. It's not political.

What is your motivation for sidetracking this thread in this way? Why are you so passionate against recognition of the closing of Auschwitz?

By the way your comparison of deaths of North American Natives as equal to the population of Western Europe at the time is factually wrong. It is estimated there were a few million natives in all of North America and near 100 million in Europe at the time of NA settlement. Gaia started out with a nice sentiment and you have injected a strangely negative one.

[kemo]

I watched a documentary the other night about the Bernstein film documentary shot at the end of the war which was bever released despite the involvement of Hitchcock and Billy Wilder (as I recall). It was the US it seems which vetoed it's release but then released a shorter version. I don't know the full history of the film but I believe what I saw with my own eyes. It made me cry. I don't mind admitting. Little kids getting off trains with fear on their faces cluching theor pathetic little toys - and knowing their fate. Except for the twins of course. Theirs was worse. Made me think I should visit Auswitz once in my life. I wholly agree with the sentiment of the OP.

[Gaia]

I think its extremely difficult for people to comprehend evil and accept that human beings are capable of unspeakable things. Just try to imagine being 10 years of age and being shipped to eleven death camps, and the Germans all over the place trying to exterminate you ? Then surviving them all!

It's not hard for me to comprehend that people do evil things. What's hard for me to comprehend is why so many people act like this is the worst thing that ever happening in the history of humanity, ever, when at the same time Stalin killed over twice as many people and you don't even get to hear their sad stories because no one was still around to write them down.

Mao killed about 30 million people even according to the current Chinese government.

Americans killed millions of Native Americans, estimated to have been equivalent to the entire population of western Europe at that same time.


These things are all sad and deserve to be reflected upon. But while you are doing your reflecting, reflect upon how politicized the Holocaust has become and how it is still used for political reasons today. Because this is exactly why non-religious people will preach sermons about the Holocaust but then know or care nothing about much greater atrocities that mankind has committed.

What makes me sick is that the Holocaust is used for political reasons, and is made into a taboo subject to even discuss in a logical way because of the equally disguisting aura of religiosity that culture has surrounded it with, as if the Holocaust itself is the messianic Jesus of the New World Order. Yes, you may admit in a clinical way that worse things have happened to larger groups of people, but we can talk about that later (as in, never), because something more important is being discussed now -- something with a real political meaning.


When you people want to get up on your soap box about the horrible things that happened at the Holocaust, and how concerned you want to act like you are about genocide and the massacre of millions of people, I just want to know where your threads mourning Stalin's murders are, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's. There aren't any. Because it's not been politicized, and so you really don't care. You might act like it for the sake of arguing with me, but be honest with yourselves, because you aren't fooling me. You don't really mourn mass deaths. You selectively mourn one event. And so you are participating in nothing but a sick political agenda that has been forced onto the dead, whether you like to realize this or not.

I think a big additional factor is that Germany was much closer to the idea of a modern, western nation. Especially at that time. Even today, horrible scenes play out in African nations and we don't get nearly as concerned as we would if it was happening in England or some such. Hitler lost and brought ruin to his own country.

Most of the casualties under Stalin and Mao were due famine and so called "indirect" causes, whereas the casualties attributed to Hitler were mostly "direct" murders, ie. gas chambers, executions, etc.

Stalin and Mao regimes were building a "better" country Hitler's regime was killing people as a mean to free up a "living space" for Germany. Hitler also targeted people next door.

Americans killed millions of Native Americans, estimated to have been equivalent to the entire population of western Europe at that same time.

The Native American population declined from over 100 million to 1.8 million or so. Mostly due to disease brought over with the Europeans, they are unclear if the disease was spread as a weapon or on accident though.

[eaglespirit]

Honor and Reverence for a Tragedy of Suffering beyond comprehension...
Leave it at that and have some respect and leave it alone.

Why, why, why must it be put in comparison categories and put asunder,
it occurred and was its own extremely devastating lesson to the world.

Remembering a major incident unto itself does not exclude other
penetrating maladies of recent history...
It is ALL inclusive, let's grow up and into Our Higher Selves!

We are at the turning point, turn and be considerate, Once And For All !!!

Thank You, Gaia and All, with utmost sincerity and humility...

[Gaia]

The ceremony today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11371040/Holocaust-Memorial-Day-Auschwitz-liberation-memorial.html

I'm out of words about this video... We mustn't forget what happened

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11370020/Auschwitz-70th-anniversary-Drone-footage-shows-scale-of-camp.html

I have visited Auschwitz in 2005

Those who have visited Auschwitz are likely to find their thoughts straying back there on this day of Holocaust remembrance.

A visit both underwhelms with the very ordinariness of the buildings, yet at the same time the significance overwhelms, as Auschwitz reaffirms its special place in the pit of human history.

A visit needs to be approached like a pilgrimage, with preparation, otherwise there will be a numbing of the experience, a confusion of conflicting emotions which may encompass anger, indignation, bewilderment and the deepest sadness. The reactions of others around you may mirror your own, yet they may not, and that too can be a challenge. Some seem visibly shocked, some deeply affected, some struggle, whilst others present as merely curious and that response can be a challenge as it may offends one’s own interpretation.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02121/holocaust1ap_2121807i.jpg

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Most of the casualties under Stalin and Mao were due famine and so called "indirect" causes, whereas the casualties attributed to Hitler were mostly "direct" murders, ie. gas chambers, executions, etc.

Stalin and Mao regimes were building a "better" country Hitler's regime was killing people as a mean to free up a "living space" for Germany. Hitler also targeted people next door.

Let's reflect for a minute about what you're really saying here. What difference does "indirect" mean, if intentionally-inflicted, extreme famines still contribute to killing 20 million people?

"Those murders were more humane than these murders..." "Those deaths were for a more logical reason than these murders..." Is this is what you really want to say? Don't worry about answering me, just think about it for yourself, if you want to take the time to do some reflecting. What are you trying to justify to me? And if this is really what you mean, then is this the same type of compassion you mourn the Holocaust with?


The Native American population declined from over 100 million to 1.8 million or so. Mostly due to disease brought over with the Europeans, they are unclear if the disease was spread as a weapon or on accident though.

The British were giving them disease-ridden blankets to sleep in on purpose. There is no controversy about this anymore.

"You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians, by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race." — Jeffery Amherst, commander of British forces and Governor of Virginia




Some valid points in there bsbray but you are the one who is truly missing the point of the post. If you wish to disrespect people for honouring this event than so be it.

My point is that you're not really honoring anyone who's dead because you obviously do not really mourn the dead, you only celebrate a political event. Mourning the dead for an event like this requires compassion, and real compassion is not going to separate different groups of people during this period of European history. Real compassion does not differentiate between people killed in the concentration camps, or German civilians raped and slaughtered by Soviet troops (also by the millions), or the millions of eastern Europeans also killed by the Soviets, or the German civilians killed by carpet-bombings and fire-bombings of their cities by the Allies (including Britain and the US).

If you really reflected upon the death deeply, and you really cared, and wanted to understand the amount of grief even in this small period of history, then you would not just selectively circle one event to mourn and say you'll think about the rest "later" or in "another thread." You're not being honest with yourself about what that even really means. If you want to really give these people reflection like you say, then reflect upon the whole context, the whole theater of war, and the incomprehensible amount of death that resulted from all of it.


You are simply missing the obvious connection between the anniversary and the thread.

I'm not missing anything. I see one event taking precedence, for decades now, over other atrocities that often are still not even fully acknowledged or even heard of today. It's not just an issue I take with this thread. In Europe there are laws that almost give this one particular event religious status while these same nations have barely even acknowledged what Stalin was doing. And it is not because the Holocaust killed better people, or more people, or in a more painful way, but just because the event itself has become extremely politicized. And this is what disgusts me so much, and so that is what I am expressing to you here. That is my real point.

I can give no words on the Holocaust or any of the other genocides and mass murders during that war, because when I reflect upon them, the amount of suffering is frankly beyond my comprehension. I think it is beyond the comprehension of anyone here. I can't even fully comprehend the grief of a single family to be torn about so violently and fatally by any war. If anything I can better understand why so many war veterans don't like to talk about their experiences. But all of that is beside the point I really want to make, that I said above.


It is simply unfair for you to question anyone's motives and criticize people for not mentioning other atrocities that have no connection to this anniversary. What are your motives for so venomously attacking a post regarding the closing of Auschwitz and filling it with anti-holocaust rhetoric? You do realize that non Jewish people died in these camps too right? It's not just the Jewish holocaust. It was a systematic slaughter. A failure of humanity.

Of course I realize that. And it wasn't just gypsies and homosexuals in addition, but the old, the physically handicapped, even Soviet prisoners of war. It's good that you realize that the Germans were not just targeting Jews but also all of these other people. Now why don't you zoom out even a little further and see an even greater amount of death and destruction all over the entire continent of Europe, and make your views even a little more accurate and encompassing?

Zoom out to view the entire continent at the end of WW2. Soviets were gang-raping German women "from 8 to 80" (their own saying) by the millions, and then leaving them in piles or crucifying them to barn doors for everyone to see. The Soviet soldiers were told that this was their prize for winning the war. Stalin had just starved to death entire nations, basically enslaved thousands or millions of others to work in industries, and was so ruthless in his purging of his own military that even his own soldiers were said to be more afraid of their officers than the German enemy. POWs returned to the USSR even after the war were summarily executed. And even the US and UK were bombing civilian populations centers in Germany and setting them on fire, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

So let's zoom out a little bit more than just all the different kinds of people in the concentration camps, and reflect for a moment upon this whole period in history, into which the Holocaust itself falls. And why not? If you have respect for humanity then you have respect for humanity. Real compassion does not say "I will respect these dead now and those dead later," which as I said before, really equates to never honoring or even thinking much about those dead.


By the way your comparison of deaths of North American Natives as equal to the population of Western Europe at the time is factually wrong. It is estimated there were a few million natives in all of North America and near 100 million in Europe at the time of NA settlement.

I said western Europe, not the totality of Europe.




I'm out of words about this video... We mustn't forget what happened


Once again.... Why are you particularly obsessed with remembering this one event but don't even want to discuss all the other innocent people killed during that war at the exact same time? Because you think it's irrelevant to the thread? No, I say it's because you have become part of a completely political agenda.

[Shezbeth]

So let's zoom out a little bit more than just all the different kinds of people in the concentration camps, and reflect for a moment upon this whole period in history, into which the Holocaust itself falls. And why not? If you have respect for humanity then you have respect for humanity. Real compassion does not say "I will respect these dead now and those dead later," which as I said before, really equates to never honoring or even thinking much about those dead.

This is an interesting and marvelous suggestion. Why doesn't the sensational name "The Holocaust" refer equally to the brutalities that occurred elsewhere - both during and after the war - exclusive to the Nazi camps? I'm not at all suggesting one disregard the evidence of the Holocaust (there were definitely jewish et. al. groups in concentration camps, no doubt about that), but why is the idea exclusive to German nefarity (as in nefarious) and not expanded to include?

There's plenty of evidence to suggest Russian atrocities (concentration camps, mass genocide, the 'sexual misconduct'*,... ad nauseum), American atrocities (I hear there were japanese/other-asian concentration camps in the US); I'm neither suggesting nor positing that we include all atrocity, just those which were of and/or directly pertain to WW2. Rather than looking at just the suffering of a particular people in a particular place, it would be looking at the global suffering that occurred collectively everywhere. Allowing one set of adversities to have/maintain the perception of being the "eminent victim" seems a bit divisive to me.

Whoops, sorry; :spy::israel: Go team. :rolleyes:

[Karma Ninja]

Thanks for the original sentiment of this thread Gaia! AND thanks to bsbray and shezbeth for reminding us of the other suffering and massacres that have occurred in our world! Peace and love to all!

[Agape]

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5hQ0OkcLKuE

Got this second clip with Ofra Hazra once , from Lord Sidious .

The Kadish , as far as i'm aware of is a prayer for the ancestors , so they can rest in peace . I don't know if this is necessary but the theory says , if you die in bad way , in an accident or being murdered , or doing something stupid at that time your soul can't find peace ..
the energy would be roaming around forever and ever and troubling the living ..

the memory , the prayer should serve todays generations so they can become aware and reconcile with the past , no matter this is possible or not ,
there is a relativistic moment present in the effort , of course .. but , it's an effort , to remain aware ,
what do we carry in our 'blood' , our potentials and shortcomings , our hells and heavens , our boundaries and liberations .


While we are slowly trying not to turn this world to one big prison camp ..


our mysterious forefathers walk back to the past where they came from , mist to mist ..

:angel:

[Gaia]

Thanks for the original sentiment of this thread Gaia! AND thanks to bsbray and shezbeth for reminding us of the other suffering and massacres that have occurred in our world! Peace and love to all!

I agree with you! Peace and love my friend :)

7HT4dMXIr-o

[Gaia]

DFvkhzkS4bw

5hQ0OkcLKuE

Got this second clip with Ofra Hazra once , from Lord Sidious .

The Kadish , as far as i'm aware of is a prayer for the ancestors , so they can rest in peace . I don't know if this is necessary but the theory says , if you die in bad way , in an accident or being murdered , or doing something stupid at that time your soul can't find peace ..
the energy would be roaming around forever and ever and troubling the living ..

the memory , the prayer should serve todays generations so they can become aware and reconcile with the past , no matter this is possible or not ,
there is a relativistic moment present in the effort , of course .. but , it's an effort , to remain aware ,
what do we carry in our 'blood' , our potentials and shortcomings , our hells and heavens , our boundaries and liberations .


While we are slowly trying not to turn this world to one big prison camp ..


our mysterious forefathers walk back to the past where they came from , mist to mist ..

:angel:

Merci mon amie :hug: I remember that Lord Sidious was a big fan of Ofra...

[Sean]

I think its extremely difficult for people to comprehend evil and accept that human beings are capable of unspeakable things. Just try to imagine being 10 years of age and being shipped to eleven death camps, and the Germans all over the place trying to exterminate you ? Then surviving them all!

It's not hard for me to comprehend that people do evil things. What's hard for me to comprehend is why so many people act like this is the worst thing that ever happening in the history of humanity, ever, when at the same time Stalin killed over twice as many people and you don't even get to hear their sad stories because no one was still around to write them down.

Mao killed about 30 million people even according to the current Chinese government.

Americans killed millions of Native Americans, estimated to have been equivalent to the entire population of western Europe at that same time.


These things are all sad and deserve to be reflected upon. But while you are doing your reflecting, reflect upon how politicized the Holocaust has become and how it is still used for political reasons today. Because this is exactly why non-religious people will preach sermons about the Holocaust but then know or care nothing about much greater atrocities that mankind has committed.

What makes me sick is that the Holocaust is used for political reasons, and is made into a taboo subject to even discuss in a logical way because of the equally disguisting aura of religiosity that culture has surrounded it with, as if the Holocaust itself is the messianic Jesus of the New World Order. Yes, you may admit in a clinical way that worse things have happened to larger groups of people, but we can talk about that later (as in, never), because something more important is being discussed now -- something with a real political meaning.


When you people want to get up on your soap box about the horrible things that happened at the Holocaust, and how concerned you want to act like you are about genocide and the massacre of millions of people, I just want to know where your threads mourning Stalin's murders are, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's. There aren't any. Because it's not been politicized, and so you really don't care. You might act like it for the sake of arguing with me, but be honest with yourselves, because you aren't fooling me. You don't really mourn mass deaths. You selectively mourn one event. And so you are participating in nothing but a sick political agenda that has been forced onto the dead, whether you like to realize this or not.

Quoted for the mutha effin' truth.

[Sunny-side-up]

Let's just not let it happen again, agreed!

Love to all.

[Wind]

No matter what you may think about the holocaust, the crux of the matter is that it still boggles my mind that how on Earth can humans do something like to each other. It's not like the mass murder of Jews was the first or last (unfortunately) ethnic slaughter. We should just remember it and honor the millions of victims who lost their lives. For example, how many have read Anne Frank's diary? It's a very beautiful book about a very sad and horrible time. Sure also later on in the hands of Stalin and other dictators millions died in vain. We don't want that to happen ever again even though there are still horrible atrocities going on all over the globe. As long as a a single soul perishes in the hands of another, something is terribly wrong in here. Our lesson here on Earth is to learn each others no matter what our culture, beliefs or skin colors are. We need to overcome the disagreements in peace.

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/peaceful-journey-white-dove-peace-art-sharon-cummings.jpg

[Cidersomerset]

I just saw this article from BBC webpage and is worth putting here as he is probably
one of the last former SS guards to be prosecuted for WW11 war associated crimes.
He said he did see the crematoria and burning pits at Auschwitz and witnessed the
mass killings.


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http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.83.4/orb/4/img/bbc-blocks-dark.png

Auschwitz guard trial: Oskar Groening admits 'moral guilt'

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Testemunho de Oskar Groening

8 hours ago
From the section Europe

Media caption
Oskar Groening interview from a 2005 BBC documentary

A 93-year-old former Nazi SS guard, known as the "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz",
has admitted he is "morally" guilty.

Oskar Groening spoke at the beginning of his trial for being an accessory to the
murder of at least 300,000 Jews at the concentration camp.He described his role
of counting money confiscated from new arrivals and said he witnessed mass
killings, but denied any direct role in the genocide.

If found guilty he could face three to 15 years in prison.

Addressing the judges, Mr Groening also said: "I ask for forgiveness. I share morally
in the guilt but whether I am guilty under criminal law, you will have to decide.''


This is expected to be one of the final trials for Nazi war crimes.


At the scene: Jenny Hill, BBC News, at the court in Lueneburg

Oskar Groening looked frail as he entered the courtroom leaning on a walking frame.
But his voice was strong and steady as he spoke for nearly an hour. Four survivors
from the notorious death camp faced him across the room. Much of his testimony
described his attempts to achieve his ambition of being an SS "executive", to work
as a bookkeeper for the Nazis.But there were haunting moments too; for a little
while we saw the horrors of Auschwitz through his eyes.

The survivors watched him impassively but their younger relatives shook their heads
in disbelief as he recounted his arrival at the camp as a young SS guard. He'd been
plied with vodka by officers there, he said.

He even described the vodka bottles. As they drank the officers told him that the camp
was for deported Jews. That those Jewish prisoners would be killed and disposed of.

Later, he pulled out a water bottle: "I'll drink from it like I drank from those vodka bottles in Auschwitz."

The nonagenarian has achieved notoriety as one of the few Germans to speak out
about their role in the genocide, a decision he say he took to stop Holocaust deniers.

"I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria," he told the BBC in the 2005
documentary Auschwitz: the Nazis and the "Final Solution".

"I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place."

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/82389000/jpg/_82389051_de37-1.jpg
Oskar Groening in SS uniform. File image taken from BBC documentary Auschwitz:
the Nazis and the 'Final Solution'

Oskar Groening signed up to the Waffen SS and arrived in Auschwitz in 1942

Former SS guard Oskar Groening steps out of a car as he arrives at the back entrance
of the court hall prior to a trail against him in Lueneburg, northern Germany, 21 April 2015

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/82452000/jpg/_82452368_026848265-1.jpg
Holocaust survivors will give evidence against Mr Groening in court

Profile: Oskar Groening, 'Bookkeeper of Auschwitz'

Mr Groening, who began work at Auschwitz aged 21, has always maintained that his
role as a guard was not a crime. "If you can describe that as guilt, then I am guilty,
but not voluntarily. Legally speaking, I am innocent," he told Der Spiegel in 2005.

Mr Groening served at Auschwitz between May and June 1944, when some 425,000
Jews from Hungary were brought there and at least 300,000 almost immediately
gassed to death.Charges brought against him in the 1980s were dropped because
of a lack of evidence of his personal involvement.

However, following a recent ruling, prosecutors believe a conviction may be possible
simply because he worked at the camp.

"What I hope to hear is that aiding in the killing machinery is going to be considered as
a crime," Auschwitz survivor Hedy Bohm told Reuters news agency. "So then no one
in the future can do what he did and claim innocence."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32392594

=====================================================

Auschwitz: Factories of Death 2 of 5

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Uploaded on 21 Jan 2009


This is the third volume in a series that examines the Auschwitz death camp from
conception to implementation of the "final solution" which resulted in the execution
of over 1,100,000 people. This segment looks at the problems Nazi leadership
encountered in trying to fulfill their leader's wishes in executing millions of people.
We follow the logistical problems involved in mass-murder and how those issues
were overcome by the Nazi regime.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

This is the third volume in a series that examines the Auschwitz death camp from
conception to implementation of the "final solution" which resulted in the execution
of over 1,100,000 people.

If this is what the series actually says, then it's a step in the right direction, since "over 1,100,000 people" is different than the 6 million people we'd been hearing about at least since the 1910's (yes, before WW2 even happened).

But again, my main point here, is that we only put so much effort into remembering all the Jews being killed, with a few homosexuals and gypsies, for political reasons. Stalin killed many more people during the same time period, but who cares about those people? No one, because there's no useful political reason for remembering them. To politicize any mass death is really disgusting to me. To politicize so many deaths is not honoring the dead, nor is the participation in the politicization of it.

It's politicians selling the dead, and people buy it.

[Cidersomerset]

I posted this earlier today on Jackovesks Hitler thread as it was the larger thread
and then watched a couple of David Irvines later presentations this afternoon.
David Irvine is a war baby and obsessed with finding out the truth about Hitler.
He has certainly researched the subject thoroughly and he is very knowledgeable,
and does know a great deal about WW 11 and interprets it like many mainstream
historians in his own way. He has had direct access to former NAZI officers and
Hitlers staff and has done probably more research than most in the subject. Yet he
is flawed and can be charismatic and obnoxious during the same presentation. But
that is beside the point he is looking for facts and there is 'grey' everywhere wading
thru the myriad of wartime propaganda from all sides to actually finding the truth.

It boils down to the inter view below as he says the term 'holocaust ' was coined
well after the war and a justification for the creation of modern Israel at the expense
of the native population . Although Israel was conceived by Britain and France
after WW1 and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire when the two state solution
was first mooted. David Irvines main argument is that 'Holocaust' is a later political
term not historical fact. He does admit millions were murdered from all causes
including in the concentration camps, though he is still looking for written proof
the gas facilities existed large enough to kill the amount of people claimed to have
died in this manner.

We know many more millions died before , during and after WW 11 and the 20th
century seems the most violent and bloody in a long human history of such events.
This is only a few brief comments and the subject is much more complex , but
we know by definition of being on a forum like Avalon we do not blindly believe
what we have / are being told and events so far this century are not encouraging
on the 'bloodshed' / propaganda front, having already had 9/11 ,7/7 and other
false flags . Wars in Iraq , Afghanistan , Libya , Syria , Ukraine , Yemen and other
flash points and TPTB Neo -con/ Zionist piece de resistance. The on going 'War on
Terror' with Al Qaeda passing the baton to ISIS , who passed it to ISIL who will
pass it on to ???



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes U/tubes pop up out the blue when you are looking at completely
different subjects , and here is one of them . It gives David Irvines views into the
mass murders and atrocities carried out by the SS and others against the Jews
among many victims. As he says he revives his views the more evidence he finds ,
and he has never said millions of Jews did not die in WW11 . But how ? and that he
does not agree with the definition 'Holocaust' and the extent Hitler fully knew
about the the final solution.

This clarifies David Irvines position better for me, though this is a few years old, so
he may have revised his views further. Obviously these are sound bite interviews
and he has more detailed views and arguments in his long presentations.The sound
sink is slightly out but an interesting discussion.


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