PDA

View Full Version : How Do I End A Friendship With A Jehovah Witness?



GloriousPoetry
24th February 2015, 18:53
I have been friends with a woman who is a Jehovah Witness for almost 2 years now. When I befriended her I didn't know about her religion. When she told me she was a JW I tried to have an open mind and became her friend anyway. I've always thought the JW religion was bizarre but I didn't want to judge her character due to her religion.

We have gradually become good friends after 2 years however I feel I sort have reached a turning point in our friendship where I feel I don't want to deal with her emotional patterns and mind-set which I find are very much controlled by her religion.

She doesn't know my true perspective about religion and how I don't believe in an external male god. Culturally I was raised Catholic but I don't practice religion. She thinks I am Catholic and on several occasions she has brought up the issue of how she changed religions 30 years ago from being Catholic to becoming a JW. I feel she wants me to ask her why she changed religions but I know better than to go there. I know that a big part of her religion is to convert everyone who isn't a JW.

She has a good heart and is a good person but I'm having a hard time dealing with what I see in her life..... which I believe has a great deal to do with her religion.....she is so disempowered from where I stand......but somehow she must find some sort of comfort in her belief system otherwise why would she continue in this religion.

I don't want to come out of the closet and just tell her what I truly think about religion and how bizarre and disempowering I find her religion to be......I don't believe it's my place to go there.....and honestly I don't want to go there.

After much research I have discovered who Jehovah really is and how this dark entity has infiltrated himself as the synthetic male god many people worship. I don't want anything to do with this entity and when I became friends with this woman I contemplated the thought of becoming friends with someone who praises this entity and if this energy would affect my life. I thought I was exaggerating to think this but am I ?

This friend has had so many accidents in her life and is in constant pain due to chronic back injuries she has endured for years. Sometimes I wonder if all of her accidents have something to do with this dark entity she worships. Am I exaggerating to think this?...I don't want to judge my friend due to her religion but it's hard not to when I see the mind control patterns she has adopted which I find very limiting and guilt driven.

Perhaps I am also feeling a bit resentful that I can't truly be myself with this friend and that I can't share my honest feelings regarding my spiritual perspective.

Am I exaggerating? ....If I decide to end this friendship how should I proceed without coming out of the closet to this friend?

kaon
24th February 2015, 19:07
After a two year friendship, it appears to not be a very strong relationship. You have to ask yourself what the foundation of this friendship really is. Sorry, but it sounds more like you simply don't want the "baggage" that she brings, and her faith is a secondary issue. I could be wrong, but your short story just has me looking at that.

Regardless, if you can't be honest and speak your true feelings, you are not what I would consider good friends. I would suggest that you have a nice talk with her, be open and honest and see where it takes you. The closet can be a dark place.

GloriousPoetry
24th February 2015, 19:19
Kaon,

I believe I've been a very good friend to this woman and have given her some good advice however due to her religion there are certain things she won't entertain. She is highly codependent and puts her religion before anything else and when Ive shared issues concerning my life she only has scripture to offer me. Yes she has a lot of baggage but I believe a lot of it has to do with her religion. Sorry there is no way around it.....mind control.......coming out of the closet to her wouldn't make a difference.....she would think I was satan and would pray for my soul....

Jake
24th February 2015, 19:19
Start meditating regularly.. Then tell her about it!! JW CANNOT deal with meditation.. I stumbled accross this on accident..

I have a friend (still friends btw,) that lost his goat completely when I mentioned meditation.. Apparantly, the devil sneaks in if you meditate.. lol.. Clearing my mind, relaxing and breathing properly caused him to lose his cool.. We argued over it for about 5 minutes,, he had a blood pressure issue, and will not talk to me about religion any more...

We are not that close anymore...

I tried taking him point by point with his reading of scripture, but as you know,, independent thought is NOT welcome with JW... He had to keep coming back time and again with new answers because he had absolutely NO idea how to think for himself. He had to go to his elders for bullet points and argumentative tactics... (not for ANSWERS)

The straw that broke the camels back was his complete loss as how to deal with simple meditation.... Some sort of trigger point for JW...

This guy blew some sort of fuse in his mind.. He became violent, like he was drunk...

I suppose the best way to deal with it is open honesty... if that doesn't work, theres always meditation....

(One should be meditating anyways....) lol

Sorry for the obtuse angle..

Jake

3(C)+me
24th February 2015, 19:36
Kaon,

I believe I've been a very good friend to this woman and have given her some good advice however due to her religion there are certain things she won't entertain. She is highly codependent and puts her religion before anything else and when Ive shared issues concerning my life she only has scripture to offer me. Yes she has a lot of baggage but I believe a lot of it has to do with her religion. Sorry there is no way around it.....mind control.......coming out of the closet to her wouldn't make a difference.....she would think I was satan and would pray for my soul....

I think that would drive me crazy...What are your options?. What have you considered. But firstly do you still want to be in touch with her and friends?

GloriousPoetry
24th February 2015, 19:45
cccme,

I have already distance myself in the last 2 weeks with the excuse that I have a bad cold which is partially true but don't know what will come next. I think I would be okay dealing with her from a distance and perhaps eventually disappear from her life.
The hard part is that she now considers me her best friend which I don't want to be because down the road I know she will be persistent about converting me into her religion. I also get a weird vibe from her when I tell her about celebrating holidays like birthdays and so on......

heretogrow
24th February 2015, 20:07
Dear Glorious Poetry,
The best suggestion that I can give is to be very honest and sincere with her. You owe this to yourself as well. Open the conversation by telling her that you are not a believer in any one religion any longer and that you are a seeker, you tend to find your own path and that is what is right for you. If she begins to counter you with scripture simply say, thank you, but trying to sway my path to one religion does not work for me, I aim to discover my own personal connection to God. Period. You are being kind, honest and sincere. If she seems awkward about this simply tell her that you hope she can appreciate your honesty and sincerity on the subject and that it is very personal to you.

I hope this helps her to step back and not try to force you into beliefs that make you uncomfortable. If time passes and she does not simply tell her that under the circumstances you need to end the friendship.

Much Love,
Julia

3(C)+me
24th February 2015, 20:21
Dear Glorious Poetry,
The best suggestion that I can give is to be very honest and sincere with her. You owe this to yourself as well. Open the conversation by telling her that you are not a believer in any one religion any longer and that you are a seeker, you tend to find your own path and that is what is right for you. If she begins to counter you with scripture simply say, thank you, but trying to sway my path to one religion does not work for me, I aim to discover my own personal connection to God. Period. You are being kind, honest and sincere. If she seems awkward about this simply tell her that you hope she can appreciate your honesty and sincerity on the subject and that it is very personal to you.

I hope this helps her to step back and not try to force you into beliefs that make you uncomfortable. If time passes and she does not simply tell her that under the circumstances you need to end the friendship.
Julia

Beautiful.well written.

eaglespirit
24th February 2015, 20:23
Take a quiet 'nature' walk at your favorite spot, GloriousPoetry : )
and be the best You can be for You and allow that 'friendship' to take its own higher course!

I have had a number of encounters with JW throughout my life, no close friendships though.

A few of Them drove up to a home I was working on recently, presuming I lived there and I being rather forward and 'feeling' they were about to 'deliver'... delivered first and mentioned my background and my Son's passing on and His Spirit being with me and my outlook and tremendous Changes coming forth (They said that was their message : )
The theme of my talk was Native American lore in the area and Mother Nature and Higher Source and Abundance and us being rather duped as to what life generally was and is really all about...They smiled and shook my hand and went on their way.

Maybe something like that will help Your Friendship on down the road.
All You can do is BE the Pure You and allow whatever comes of that with Her and Your Friendship to unfold, imho...letting go of any time attachment too.

The Best and Highest to You and Your Friend : )

Realeyes
24th February 2015, 20:30
In my past when I found myself in such quandaries, I would go into my inner stillness for a while…………… then grab a pen a paper and from an observer’s point of view, I’d begin ‘defining’ the quandary.

For example:-

Have you ever defined what a ‘friendship’ really means/is to you?


Then, one might define are they ‘close friends’ or ‘friends’ or maybe ‘acquaintances’?

Each one involves a different type of relationship and levels of openess.

Defining the type of relationship you have in this present moment is helpful.

How does it serve you both, is another good question.

What is my ‘need’ in this relationship? (deep question)

What are my expectations in a friendship?

Such questions like my examples (I am sure you will think of many of your own) will help to see the fuller picture of what you ‘have’, what you want and ‘why’. It is about being the Observer, seeing the 'stage' and the 'play' and who is who as the 'actors', and seeing it for what it really is from both sides.

Then one can arrive to choices, such as keeping it the way it is, walking away, or seeing if it can become a deeper friendship where both parties are willing to work upon it, both being truthful to themselves so BOTH CAN GROW.


We are all Travellers, and I bless the travellers I engage upon along the way whether it be for a brief moment or a lifetime or beyond into Elsewhere. Every interaction brings with it a sharing gift. :hug:




http://i.imgur.com/6RSvmYr.jpg

Realeyes
24th February 2015, 20:50
Oh, and forgot to mention, my mother in-law was a Jehovah Witness.

Lovely lady filled with grace. I broke every rule in the book with her son, we never married and had kids (obviously out of wedlock). So mother in-law never came to our house due to her religion saying it was a 'house of sin' (or whatever the excuse is).............. However, we were always welcomed at her home, she love me dearly, even when she knew I was practicing meditation and spiritual studies.................. we both agreed a long time ago that we had different spiritual paths, yet had in common both wishing a spiritual betterment for humanity - a loving compassion for all life.

Basically, we respected each other, loved each other, supported each other and allowed each other to breathe our own expressions. That is why I see her filled with grace, because I must have stretched her religious principals many times and yet she let them go. Bless her.

Kryztian
24th February 2015, 21:13
Forgive me if I am reading too much into what you are saying, but I find a logical contradiction between (1) your wanting to end the relationship and (2) your being in the closet about your true religious beliefs (sorry, I don't mean to point the finger and will admit I am loaded with these contradictions but don't have the courage to spill my guts on Avalon). Are you repressing your true religious feelings because your are afraid of ending the relationship? And yet doing so makes the relationship intolerable to you and you feel you have to end it?

Why not admit to your friend that you have been suppressing your true religious feelings because you know her beliefs are important to her and she is probably commanded to evangelize by her religion. Then start to tell her about your own religious path and then take it from there. If she ends the friendship, then you ended it in an honest and truthful way and she will always have it on her shoulders that she could not stand up to someone else'e truth. Or it could take your relationship to a new level. And it the conversation about religion gets too intense, you might be able to strike up an agreement to hold off on the subject.

According to Catholicism, if you under went the rites, you are still Catholic, and since you also got some religious education in the Catholic church, so you still have street cred if you say "speaking as a Catholic" (and if you want to be more honest, add the word "lapsed".) All your other beliefs do not have to be in alignment with the Vatican. Plenty of Catholics believe in reincarnation, astrology, abortion rights, gay marriage, etc. and still go to Mass all the time. So you can "speak as a Catholic" when you are criticizing the "Jehovah" concept. In Exodus 3, God tells Moses that he doesn't have a name, he's "The God of Jacob, The God of Abraham". Makes just as much sense to call him "The Source of All Being" or "The God of Love and Light". In the last few years Catholic hymn publishers have removed all references to "Yahweh" and "Jehovah" (not sure why conspiracy theorists haven't had a field day asking why this is).

Here's a rather orthodox explanation of why Catholics don't use the name "Jehovah". Is God's name Yahweh or Jehovah? (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah)

Even in my own belief, I do believe that when I pray to "God", I know I dialed the right number. If "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" are summoned, I am a little less sure. There are plenty of way to bring up your issues about "Jehovah" without quite referring to him as a dark entity. And there are lots of other reasons one can criticize the Witness's church, from a Catholic or other perspective.

Good Luck to you, whatever your decide.

Flash
24th February 2015, 21:17
I told those at my door that i was a devout muslim ;) My daughter could not believe it. One of my friend answered her door almost naked, they cannot handle this either.

With a friend of mine, reborn Jesus Christ dependent :rolleyes:, I plainly took an agreement with her: she can pray for me, if she wishes, and me for her, she can tell me what she lives and feel, and reciprocally, but she cannot judge me and vice versa, for whatever happens in our lifes, and she will never try to convert me even if her Church demands such thing. We both held tight to these agreements and have pleasant talks. But i see her only once every 2 months, so it is quite bearable.

On the other hand, as a 20 years old told my 18 years old daughter who was telling him that she helped desperately needy people (bums and **** ed ups of all kinds) by giving them time and energy, his automatic answer was : so you lost your time and energy giving it to those who won't use it for the good. When she told me that conversation, I laughed - because it is in parts true.

We can see it as stones thrown in the water hoping the ripples will reach the shore, but it may not, we have to be detached from the results, a giving friendship with no expectations of growth.

GloriousPoetry
24th February 2015, 21:54
Kryztian,
The reason I am in the closet about my true spiritual perspective with this friend is because of her religion. I don't have issues about coming out with other people who don't hold religion so close to their identity. I am not a practicing Catholic because I don't believe in an external male god......as a matter of fact I don't believe in any organized religion. And yes Jehovah is a dark entity.....there is much research in this area....read the book The Gods of Eden by William Bramley and the book Our Universal Journey by George Kavassilas. I have had my own personal spiritual awakenings that have nothing to do with an external male god......

If you understand Mexican culture you would understand that some of us tolerate Catholicism as a cultural identity but not as a means to spiritually grow......

Jayren
24th February 2015, 22:11
I have grandma who is a Jehovah witness, I understand how it can be to know that the thing they worship gives there power away to some degree, but I love her with all my heart she always tells me how JehovJ could use me or she tells me do I know some of the answer to life's big questions such as life after death, when she ask me this of course I'm going to tell her what I really think and k ow about it I actually do like to engage in conversation about whay she think she knows to what I know I know about the way they answer life's questions. She seems to be listening well when I share but she only believes what she think she knows she does understand how my thoughts relate to hers but I tell her that I think of the one true god as Prime Creator and she sometimes ask me where I get my info from and I say the internet but I never have told her some of my personal experiences that were spiritual to me like spiritual awe moments or experiences I call them. I do believe you could talk to her somehow get a conversation going and once she tried to get your thoughts about what you should do just go along with what you actually know and kind of slip it in a way that its recognizable to her you know?

lightwalker
24th February 2015, 22:30
I would just ask myself this question...Is this relationship healthy for me ? And in the answer you will figure out what you need to do.

I have 4 siblings that are fundamentalist Christians. They do not evangilize to me anymore. In the beginning they were so excited to share their new found peace and I just did what I call "spiritual ti chi". I accepted who they were and allowed them to judge me (which was ok because I knew they were praying real hard for me). Because I never reacted it kind of confused them in the beginning and maybe they still don't know what to do with me but the love is still strong and they have come to accept me. More because I never tried to defend or explain my personal and very deep beliefs. I just kind of "stopped the bullets" like Neo did in the Matrix and engaged in no conflict.

She is a gift to you in that you have a conflict to resolve inside of you and when you do, you may continue to be friends or not.

lightwalker

GloriousPoetry
25th February 2015, 00:02
Thank you lightwalker,

Yes you are right about not engaging in a conflict.....that's why I never bring up the issue of religion with her. I suppose what I find difficult is her docile ways and how she is always being used by other people and then she comes to me for answers. I try to listen to her but I find that her religion keeps her in this certain level of not standing up for herself. The only time I have seen her defensive and strong is when she talks about her religion. I never ask her questions about her religion because I don't want to hear her get into it and start preaching to me. You are right I have to resolve this conflict inside of me and make a decision.

raregem
25th February 2015, 00:17
Hi GP-

Thank you for this thought provoking subject.
Seems simple enough to rectify yet, in todays world, the confusion is thorough from TPTW.

First question I wonder is, "What is a FRIEND"?

I see a friend as someone I can be open and honest with regardless of our differences. Someone who honors the differences -not judges them.

Discussions may be filled with passionate energy to our personal beliefs yet we respect this, think about it, question it, then accept (respectfully) what our friend has just shared -as their truth

I have been told I was going to hell etc... and I accept their outlook as THEIR OUTLOOK and respect this with a loving heart and hopefully non-judgment.
I have been listened to regarding my non religious outlook. Just not accepted. That's fine.
I tried using the idea of prayer in lieu of the word meditation. Adding the idea of stilling the mind instead of talking to your god, listen for the answer instead of asking for any one thing. It never went far. The idea of going within to expand was foreign and difficult for my religious friends.

My next question for you is, "what do you get from/out of this relationship 2 years into it"? " "Why have you felt compelled to explore this relationship when you have been in hiding the entire time"?

I add these thoughts for you with a loving heart and pure healing intention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Non judgment, too. raregem

Innocent Warrior
25th February 2015, 00:46
I think you might be onto something with the entity, Jehovah and the effects of praising it. I have let go of one of my dearest friends because of this religion, the energy was too dark and it fogged her mind, even towards me.

Her husband's family is JW. Her husband had two brothers, both committed suicide as young men.

His elder brother was found in his apartment, on the other side of his locked front door, deceased with his arm stretched out towards the door. He had apparently cut his phone connection, taken a lot of amphetamines and drank a lot of alcohol and died. His apartment was a mess, blood everywhere. A very violent and creepy death that never made sense to me.

His younger brother, a few years later, jumped off a high bridge to his death. His girlfriend had broken up with him and he went to the bridge that morning. He was standing on the bridge, working up the courage to jump and people were driving past, encouraging him to jump. The police arrived and managed to snatch him from the rail of the bridge after they said his girlfriend was on the phone and held it out for him to talk to her. He was taken to the psychiatry ward but managed to convince them he was ok and they drove him to his home that afternoon. When they left, he called a cab and when they were on the same bridge, he dropped his wallet out the window and asked the cabbie to stop. As soon as the cab stopped, he ran towards the rail, climbed it and leaped off straight away.

So then the final brother (my friend's husband) went into this deep depression and in that time got baptised. He became terribly abusive to my friend, almost killed her one night. He dragged her through the house so violently that her hair was damaged, it has thinned and gone frizzy. He became a very violent person and even though I never felt too comfortable around him, he became someone I just didn't want to be around. I tried to convince her to leave him but she's convinced he will kill himself if she does. The truth is, he probably would. The talk about his choices not being her responsibility fell on deaf ears.

My friend knew me before her life was so heavily influenced by JW, so it wasn't so difficult to fall away. She knew my beliefs and so all I had to do is stop reaching out to her and our friendship ended, because I am not JW, I was not a good influence in her husband's eyes anyway. To end the friendship, honesty is the best way, but it doesn't have to be about her religion, you can make it more about who you are and your beliefs. If you express your beliefs more, in her company, she is likely to end the friendship herself.

Hawkwind
25th February 2015, 00:48
Sorry, but if the real reason you want to end the relationship is your feelings about your friend's religion, then telling her anything other than that is on one level or another being intentionally deceitful, (which to me does not seem an appropriate course of action).

GloriousPoetry
25th February 2015, 01:13
I explored this relationship with this friend because I didn't want my prior judgements about her religion to judge who she is as a person but now almost 2 years into the friendship I'm starting to feel that I wasn't wrong about her religion. I should have stayed away......I thought I was being tolerant and I still think she is a good person but I often find her depressed and weighed down with low energy. It's hard because she is a good person and has a good heart but it's difficult to be around this low energy.

GloriousPoetry
25th February 2015, 01:20
Hawkwind,

I don't think she could handle the truth about how I feel about her religion......her identity is her religion .....who am I to shatter her belief system? I don't want the responsibility of hurting her ......that's not my intention ....being honest with her would really hurt her......I don't want that on me........I know it's deceitful but what else can I do?

3(C)+me
25th February 2015, 01:52
You would just be giving her your opinion and if you can do this without disrespecting her beliefs while still being honest I think you would be doing you and her a service. Her beliefs are not more important then your beliefs and I suspect she knows how you really feel. You seem to need to take care of her but your here to take care of yourself. If you get so uncomfortable in this friendship why would you do that to yourself? You don't know what she can handle because this friendship has never been tested. Not being honest especially in these times may just blow up in your face and then you will have no control over the outcome. It comes down to are you going to come from love or fear, and love is being honest about how you feel. Your choice and good luck.

Innocent Warrior
25th February 2015, 02:00
I don't think she could handle the truth about how I feel about her religion......her identity is her religion .....who am I to shatter her belief system?

I'd be astonished if you managed to shatter her belief system by telling her the truth...astonished.

Verdilac
25th February 2015, 02:33
I don't think your the only one to have found yourself in a position like this, and speaking from experience you may just find that grow apart from this person over a period of a few months as it may feel like the thing you need to do.
It doesn't have to be a confrontational situation but you cannot keep going on being a sponge for someones negative energy. We can all do this in the short term and indeed most of us do quite alot. but if someone else's fallout from not being able to handle there religious programing is having a detrimental effect on your well being and your balance, then something has to give , I feel for you in the situation your in as you have rite to be happy and hot feel so dragged down by the position you have found yourself in

Verdilac
25th February 2015, 02:42
I don't think she could handle the truth about how I feel about her religion......her identity is her religion .....who am I to shatter her belief system?

I'd be astonished if you managed to shatter her belief system by telling her the truth...astonished.

I agree, she would have come to that conclusion on her own, it would immediately put her on the defensive if you did try and say something like that, it may be counterproductive but then again some people that come out the other side of religion are some of the most switched on and awake people you could ever meet

sigma6
25th February 2015, 03:04
Tell them you are becoming a Mormon, in a matter of fact tone, and there is no changing your mind... ';-O

Dawn
25th February 2015, 03:08
There is only one measure to use in choosing friends.

How do you feel after you have been in her/his company? Do you feel energised and enhanced from being with them? Or do you feel that your energy is lower and your mind is tangled?

The TRUTH about being human is not what it seems to be at all on the surface. Most wise people will not step forward and help you see the truth about this. Who you choose to spend your time with means a lot as to your own experience of life. When you are with a friend you can enrich your energy and knowledge by combining your energy fields, and that is what we humans do in relationships. So... does she enhance you... or does she subtract from you?

That is the only criteria for choosing a friend. Any other way to decide is truly not valid. Now that does not mean that you cannot choose to be with someone who detracts from you in order to help you learn about yourself.... but really.... aren't there ways to learn without taking away from who you are?

You can also choose to be with someone in order to play the savior/victim roles. Frankly, that is one of the most common bonds for relationship in human society. However if you like being a savior then you are also feeding the other half of the duality (ie: victimhood)... and no one is ultimately enriched in this game.

KiwiElf
25th February 2015, 06:43
With all respect, there are TWO Lessons unfolding here; hers and YOURS :). Whatever you do, will be the right thing for YOU (and I think you know the answer to that one already... :)

Violet
25th February 2015, 07:11
It's difficult when you know you're going to hurt someone.

When I read your opening post, I felt like you had already answered your question.

I hope that despite the background as described, she will find some understanding and deal with it well.

Hawkwind
25th February 2015, 12:40
GloriousPoetry-

If your friend is already seriously unhinged at a psychological level I think you would have mentioned it by now, and short of that your sharing your opinions with her isn't likely to cause any sort of psychotic break or identity crisis. So, saying you don't think she could handle the truth seems more like an excuse than a legitimate concern. There are perhaps more polite ways I could say that or I could simply choose to not comment at all, but you asked for other people's perspectives- so this is mine. Be honest with your friend, yourself and the rest of us.

You don't want the responsibility of hurting her. Well for starts, continuing the relationship under false pretenses is pretty clearly hurting both of you. Your friend will no doubt feel hurt should you choose to end the relationship, but that seems both unavoidable and not within your responce-ability.

To illustrate the point- Two divers set off to explore a shipwreck. One makes a bad decision and gets trapped under some debris. In the course of trying to free herself her airline is cut and tank depleted. For as long as possible her friend shares his oxygen with her and tries to free her. There comes a point, however, where her friend either has to surface or they'll both drown. What is the better course of action? Who is responsible?

Something you are responsible for, however, is whether or not you choose to tell your friend that you believe she is worshipping a dark entity. To remain silent on the subject is to knowingly allow your friend to be devoured by darkness. It's not your responsibility to forcefully attempt to change your friend's beliefs, nor are any such attempts likely to succeed. To see the dangers inherent in something and not inform someone exposing themselves to those dangers, however, is (in my opinion) tantamount to negligence.

To illustrate the point- If my out of town vistor is leaving the house in swim wear and I know the nearby lake is infested with piranhas, I have a responsibility to inform him of the fact. I may choose to also try to dissuade him, by introducing him to a neighbor whose cow was eaten alive last week. If he is an adult and chooses to go swimming anyway, that's not my responsibility.

Lcam88
25th February 2015, 13:21
I think the OP is engaged in some type of self-protection mental state. You don't make or break friendships because of religion, that is always plausible deniability employed to protect the delicate and/or valuable intangible each person carries within.

People become friends because circumstances push them together and they can coexist together in a meaningful way. If people happen to be of "conflicting belief systems" that coexistence is strained by actions each person takes as they see fit based on who they are as they spontaneously live in each passing moment.

You should start by stop lying to yourself about why you really don't want a friendship with the JW. If you can't or don't feel comfortable to conduct yourself as you see fit, the issue is actually yours, regardless of what religion, race, culture, sex, [insert christian label as you desire here], sexuality or age the people around you happen to be, it is *your* feeling of discomfort. What I am trying to say is there is a reason homophobes have issue and focus on the sexuality of people around them. Could that reason be that they themselves are insecure about something, maybe their sexuality, identity or even their image to others?

I think you should take the opportunity to get to know yourself better; perhaps this JW is there to help you do that. Think of this as an opportunity to actually grow as a person in a meaningful way, even if you do end your friendship. [Or stranger, even if you end up becoming a JW, whatever that is].

Mike Gorman
25th February 2015, 13:29
From what you have described it seems like you are living a lie really - and friendships that are one sided are not really friendships at all, but dependencies. You should not maintain the connection because you feel sorry for this lady, because it is obviously dragging you down energy wise. It is always easier to say than to do, but you should be honest with yourself, and this JW woman - it is clear from your writing that you do not want to carry on, so you can just allow it to 'die on the vine' don;t add any more of your energy to this as it seems one sided. I'm sure you just need to hear what you already know.

Snoweagle
25th February 2015, 14:06
With friends like that, who hold strong convictions to what you consider a false FICTION will only lead to conflict. A friendship by its very nature invokes dependance between each other and that falsehood that is eating them will very seriously impact you. You will be expected to "understand" them and their needs whether or not you choose to. Should you comply, you have become your own prisoner.

My advice, show them the door and keep it closed to them. Until they rattle alone in their cage eventually reason will or should make them see sense.

Am a marked man with Jehovah Witnesses, literally. Every year they hold some sort of event in the city and they come around door to door doing their doorstep recruitment. For several years I have tackled the pairs at each call into debate and have successfully "turned" the younger ones as they asked their questions of me to which I would provide them with sources and information they had not heard before. Operating in gangs of about 3 pairs I had often had the lot of them at my door "oowing and aahing" at my revelations.

This year, my address has been blacklisted. Yes, headquarters of JW have my door as a "no go" area. lol
But I heard them knocking and troubling my neighbours so I went and standing at my door decryed them for secular exclusion so they engaged again. This year they had a top honcho negotiator with them (a bit Scientology) who avoided engagement throughout our encounter. My message to them was "if you come back again to trouble my neighbours then I insist you trouble me too or else I will call the police and have you removed and have their doorstep access stopped altogether".

Keep these friends at arms length distance if you have to. My advice, find new friends before it impacts you and those you truly love. There is no inbetween.

GloriousPoetry
25th February 2015, 15:45
Thank you Dawn,

Your post nailed what I believe is really eating at me.....I have been playing the savior for this friend and I feel I am tired of it......I thought showing compassion and understanding was being a good friend but when you start feeling like the friendship is lopsided because the other person feels comfortable playing the victim it starts to get old.

Snoweagle
25th February 2015, 16:22
Thank you Dawn,

Your post nailed what I believe is really eating me.....I have been playing the savior for this friend and I feel I am tired of it......I thought showing compassion and understanding was being a good friend but when you start feeling like the friendship is lopsided because the other person feels comfortable playing the victim it starts to get old.

Thats the way GP:-)

Do not climb their mountain - have them climb yours. Much easier to embrace the majesty of delightful compromise and tolerance of true friendship.

Snookie
25th February 2015, 18:08
When you end this relationship with this woman, you will not believe the relief you will feel. I had to end a couple of victim/saviour type relationships in my life. In both cases I played the saviour role. I finally realized that it did neither of us any good to continue in that fashion.

One of them was an ex husband who did his best to make me feel guilty about ending the marriage. He was gambling and refused to quit so when I decided enough was enough, he would call me crying to take him back. Although he did make me feel guilty for quite some time, I finally realized I was tired of being his mother. The sense of relief I felt once I knew it was over for good was amazing!

ghostrider
26th February 2015, 05:09
A true friend will give you space to be you ... trying to enslave you with their religion means they care more for an agenda than your right to be a free thinking human being ...

Dawn
26th February 2015, 06:34
And... don't forget to balance the energies between you... because the friendship in 3D is only part of the connection.

I use one of 2 methods:

Ho-opono-o'-pono: This involves closing your eyes and focusing on your friend. As though you are directly in contact with her make the following statements. With every statement the pauses are very important for during the pauses you focus on your heart and allow an energetic flow between you and your friend. The idea is to return all of her energy and thought forms and to allow her to return your own energy back to you. Sometimes the energy which flows will not be 'nice', but that does not matter... what matters is that it is balancing.

1.... I love you (pause) I love you (pause) I love you
2.... Thank you (pause) Thank you (pause) Thank you (pause)
3.... I'm sorry (pause) I'm sorry (pause) I'm sorry (pause)
4.... Please forgive me (pause) Please forgive me (pause) Please forgive me (pause)

The second method is simpler but can be just as powerful. I suggest you try out both methods and see which one you prefer. Focus on your friend in the same way and use the pause the same way in this method as in the first one. Repeat until you are finished

1. What is mine is mine (pause)
2. What is yours is yours (pause)

If you do these exercises EVERY time you find yourself thinking of her, you will find the parting is smooth and easy. The first day you might have to work a lot, but by the 2nd day she will connect less and less to you. As the days progress you will find that you do not think of her at all... that is an indication that the relationship has ended and that your energies are in balance once again.

MorningFox
26th February 2015, 10:05
I think you should simply be totally honest and forthcoming with your feelings. Either it will end the friendship as she won't be able to handle it (most likely outcome), or she will hear your truth and rethink her stance, or maybe at the very least rethink her stance toward you (unlikely I know).

Either way you'll have a desired outcome and you can be proud of your integrity by being open and truthful.

citsym
26th February 2015, 12:09
Just a thought..
Is she a baptized JW? or is she just going to meetings?
If she's baptized it's very unusual for her to seek company outside the congregation... VERY UNUSUAL... If she is just going to meetings and studying the beliefs etc... that's a different story...

Either way, just maybe she is crying for help, or feels something is wrong but doesn't have the energy to break the hold JW's have on her!

RunningDeer
26th February 2015, 12:34
And... don't forget to balance the energies between you... because the friendship in 3D is only part of the connection.

I use one of 2 methods:

Ho-opono-o'-pono: This involves closing your eyes and focusing on your friend. As though you are directly in contact with her make the following statements. With every statement the pauses are very important for during the pauses you focus on your heart and allow an energetic flow between you and your friend. The idea is to return all of her energy and thought forms and to allow her to return your own energy back to you. Sometimes the energy which flows will not be 'nice', but that does not matter... what matters is that it is balancing.

1.... I love you (pause) I love you (pause) I love you
2.... Thank you (pause) Thank you (pause) Thank you (pause)
3.... I'm sorry (pause) I'm sorry (pause) I'm sorry (pause)
4.... Please forgive me (pause) Please forgive me (pause) Please forgive me (pause)

The second method is simpler but can be just as powerful. I suggest you try out both methods and see which one you prefer. Focus on your friend in the same way and use the pause the same way in this method as in the first one. Repeat until you are finished

1. What is mine is mine (pause)
2. What is yours is yours (pause)

If you do these exercises EVERY time you find yourself thinking of her, you will find the parting is smooth and easy. The first day you might have to work a lot, but by the 2nd day she will connect less and less to you. As the days progress you will find that you do not think of her at all... that is an indication that the relationship has ended and that your energies are in balance once again.
:bump:
Thanks, Dawn. Great techniques for clearing out projections that may or may not be mine or another(s). The second one is new to me.

As an empath it’s easy to pick up others’ stuff. Mislabel it. And go into that nutty mind-chatter.

<3

GloriousPoetry
26th February 2015, 16:57
Citsym,

I don't know if she is baptized a JW......I do know she has been a JW for 30 something years now and is very devoted to her meetings and door to door preaching. I feel she has found a lot of strength in my friendship since I am a very strong and independent thinker and she has made several comments about her being an open minded JW. However, her JW beliefs are always there...... and I think you might be right about her wanting help but I don't think I want to get involved with being her savior.....I don't want that on my hands......when I was younger I think I would have gone there but now that I"m in my 40s I don't want to invest my energy in someone else's mindset.

citsym
26th February 2015, 23:20
Citsym,

I don't know if she is baptized a JW......I do know she has been a JW for 30 something years now and is very devoted to her meetings and door to door preaching. I feel she has found a lot of strength in my friendship since I am a very strong and independent thinker and she has made several comments about her being an open minded JW. However, her JW beliefs are always there...... and I think you might be right about her wanting help but I don't think I want to get involved with being her savior.....I don't want that on my hands......when I was younger I think I would have gone there but now that I"m in my 40s I don't want to invest my energy in someone else's mindset.

I would say she's baptized... 30 years a JW.. Wow .. I lasted 15 years and it took me 2-3 years to get over the guilt of leaving.
Fair enough if you don't want to get involved... I don't have any step by step way to get out of the friendship, other than sitting down and asking her outright the following:

Why are you friends with me when you know it's discouraged by the JW teachings?
You know I don't believe in the JW teachings.
Are you ready to leave the JW's ?

If she wants help to leave, that should start the process... but be aware if she does want to leave the JW's, she is going to need a lot of help! Perhaps see if there is an ex-JW group in the area that could become involved if need be...


but I don't think I want to get involved with being her savior.....I don't want that on my hands......when I was younger I think I would have gone there but now that I"m in my 40s I don't want to invest my energy in someone else's mindset.

All the best ... hope you can sort it out

earthdreamer
26th February 2015, 23:26
The Jehovah's Witness religion is nuts. Their books are crazy! I was friendly with the people who sold us their home and kept in touch. But the man sent me a set of books that confirmed my doubts about the sanity of that religion. His own letters revealed some deeply held conflicts of guilt with himself. The books were all about "the Devil" and the end of the world, just crazy crazy crap. I threw them in the trash (and I don't usually throw away any books, I at least donate or recycle the paper). I can be nice to folks addicted to their insane beliefs but I sure can't be true friends with them.

I wanted to look up a quote from their source material to demonstrate how over-the-top it is and instead I found an interesting looking book about a woman who escaped the cult. Some of the descriptive text seems to show an affinity with "GloriousPoetry"'s thread.

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Jehovahs-Witness-Watchtower-Society/dp/1573929425


Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness: Escape from the Watchtower Society Hardcover – April 1, 2002 by Diane Wilson

"This tale of mind control, the use of fear to manipulate vulnerable people, and final escape from a suffocating cult environment is a revealing exposT of a secretive contemporary sect, as well as a true psychological thriller. Diane Wilson spent twenty-five precious years of her life, first becoming indoctrinated by the dogma of the Watchtower Society, and then struggling to free herself from its pervasive, intimidating clutches. In this probing, brutally honest assessment, Wilson describes how a childhood of psychological abuse and lack of self-confidence rendered her vulnerable to the seductive doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet as time went on and the society demanded rigid control over every aspect of her life, even her every thought, Wilson began to rebel. Her gradual awakening, at first unconsciously through physical and psychological ailments, and then consciously as a caring therapist helped her rediscover her true self, is a fascinating story.
What she reveals about the goings-on within the closed Watchtower Society will shock the average person who assumes the polite, well-dressed people who pass out leaflets are much like any other conservative religious group. Wilson contends that membership in the Jehovah's Witnesses requires obedience bordering on psychological enslavement and complete suppression of individuality. Her engrossing memoir will be of great interest to former Witnesses, students of cult phenomena, and anyone who has ever had contact with Jehovah's Witnesses."

This customer review seemed very relevant as well:

"This book is one persons story, not an objective but a subjective account about life in the Jehovah's Witnesses. Books such as M. James Penton's excellent and highly recommended work Apocalypse Delayed are a scholar's account of the Watchtower based on library research. To fully understand a movement (any movement), reading individual life stories such as Diane Wilson's are critical. Having read many accounts such as Ms. Wilson's, it is obvious to me that her story (and those of many others) should be taken very seriously. Only one who has lived as part of the Watchtower Society as a baptized member can fully understand what is it like to be a committed member (or trapped because a spouse is a member, and one knows that all too often leaving means loss of family as happened to Diane). Ms. Wilson's account will give the reader a feel for what it is like to be a Witness (and Witnesses will find themselves saying over and over "that is just how I felt!" or "that is what happened to me!"). A trend exists in academia that concludes one should not say unkind things about other religions. This rule may be fine in mixed company, but it will not really help us to understand this or any other movement. Also, few people wish to apply this rule to some groups such as the Taliban now, although certainly scholarly studies and individual life storied are both necessary to understand both the Taliban and the Watchtower (both have more in common than it first appears). To be a Witness, one usually must be either in or out, or, as they say, in the truth or of the world (Satan's world, that is). Outsiders seem to have a hard time accepting the reality of what it is like being in the Watchtower Society. Read this book (the whole book, and also check the many references) and find out why. Even a veteran Watchtower watcher can learn much from this well documented story. by A Customer on February 23, 2002

jagman
27th February 2015, 01:45
I see this thread has just another attack on JWs but you guys go ahead spit your venom.
I LOVE JEHOVAH and his son JESUS

cloud9
27th February 2015, 02:50
Hello GP:
I understand your dilemma as I have had JW friends in the past. I was never interested in their religion and I was always afraid they would start talking to me about it and those friendships faded away.
A few years ago a couple of young ladies came to my door and I allowed them to talk and received their magazines so they kept coming back but I was getting tired of all the doom and gloom in their conversations and how everything is a sin and we're going to hell even before this world ends and so on...
One day I asked the younger one what she knew about cosmology and she replayed: about cosmowhat? I said: the study of the universe and its relationship with God. She said she never heard about it and I said a few crazy things and even mentioned ETs..... they looked at me as if I was Satan himself, said good bye and never ever came back. It was just too much for them.

I think you feel guilty for wanting to end your friendship but just keep in mind that you are not obligated in any way, shape or form to keep it going either. I'm pretty sure you will feel better later on.

No te preocupes, los mejores amigos son los que tienen cosas en comun con nosotros, te aseguro que te vas a sentir mejor cuando decidas hacer lo que realmente quieres hacer. No necesitas preguntar mas, tu ya tienes la respuesta en tu corazon y no hay necesidad de sentirse culpable.

GloriousPoetry
27th February 2015, 15:34
Jagman,

You are right this thread is an attack on JW just like my JW friend attacks the Catholic church even though she thinks I am Catholic. She is so marinated in her JW doctrine that she believes she has thy truth. The only reason I have stayed friends with her for this long is because I don't practice any religion and I thought that I could meet her on a human level without getting religion involved but I now realize that her faith is her identity and there is no way around it....

I want nothing to do with Jehovah.....

I am a sovereign soul ....when the soul is born all doors are open to adorn what is spirit's highest form.....an essence that receives its gold from wearing being as thy lord creating treasures of uncommon fold....

MorningFox
27th February 2015, 15:38
I see this thread has just another attack on JWs but you guys go ahead spit your venom.
I LOVE JEHOVAH and his son JESUS

Funny how people with such strict belief systems see anyone who disagrees with them as 'attacking' them.

This thread is not an attack on anything. Please have a word with yourself.

cruza-1
27th February 2015, 17:44
I have been in the very same situation, for over five years. I was waiting on a spinal operation and had mobility issues the Jehovah Witnesses befriend me, and I accepted them for who they where. When I had my two spinal operations [last year] they became more insistent about attending their services, which I had no intentions off attending, although I felt obliged to.

1) They are genuinely interested in others welfare, physical & spiritual, in their own way.
2) They are genuinely gentle, sympathetic and caring people.
3) As with all religions, there is a miss guided component, but in their defence, they where taught by 'some one'.
If the shepherd leads the sheep down the wrong road ... who bears responsibility when the sheep eat some one else's paddock. The shepherd or the sheep?

Not wanting to be nasty, callous or abrupt, at an appropriate time I struck up a conversation on the one subject they reject.
1) I informed them (they come in 2, 3 or 4 members) that I accept 'everyone' for who they are [and I do]. A few conversations on my views and why I had these views.
2) A little later, I had a discussion on Homosexuality and how we are all conceived female, until the 8th week. Then depending on the mothers levels of Testosterone or Estrogen as to whether we are born male or female. Therefore; we have to appreciate the fact that, if there is equal quantities of these hormones in the mother, it is distinctly possible that some males should be females & vice versa.

They stopped visiting me. I did not bend the truth, I was not rude or aggressive, they made the conscious decision not to return based on conflict & scientific fact, which caused ... 'Cognitive Dissonance'

I have studied Behavioral Science which incorporated / fringed on DNA, RNA, Genes & Trait Theory and I did case work with homosexuals, male & females and I stand by my word.

Chris Gilbert
27th February 2015, 17:57
Having originally been raised as a JW I would say, be friendly yet firm that you aren't interested in being preached too. Share bits of your own views from time to time, but don't try to actively argue with your friend. JWs have a very powerful persecution complex that is fostered by their indoctrination and is quickly brought to the fore whenever anyone disagrees or argues with them. Back when I was still a member, the gears in my head started turning the most when I encountered a mixture of disinterest and sympathy towards my beliefs mixed in with inner peace with the people I talked to, rather than outright opposition. That was a large part of what lead me to realize that "The Truth" (a phrase the JWs often use for their faith) was actually a mound of feces disguised by frosting.

Chris Gilbert
27th February 2015, 18:05
Start meditating regularly.. Then tell her about it!! JW CANNOT deal with meditation.. I stumbled accross this on accident..

I have a friend (still friends btw,) that lost his goat completely when I mentioned meditation.. Apparantly, the devil sneaks in if you meditate.. lol.. Clearing my mind, relaxing and breathing properly caused him to lose his cool.. We argued over it for about 5 minutes,, he had a blood pressure issue, and will not talk to me about religion any more...



Lol, yeah I remember that back from my young days when I was one of them. I was always deeply inquisitive/introspective, and immediately took to the idea of meditation. Their irrational reactions to the very idea was one of the biggest things that helped key me in to the fraudulent, vile nature of that religion.

jagman
27th February 2015, 18:06
Jagman,

You are right this thread is an attack on JW just like my JW friend attacks the Catholic church even though she thinks I am Catholic. She is so marinated in her JW doctrine that she believes she has thy truth. The only reason I have stayed friends with her for this long is because I don't practice any religion and I thought that I could meet her on a human level without getting religion involved but I now realize that her faith is her identity and there is no way around it....

I should have been more clear on my response to your thread GloriousPoetry.
I did not intend to say your motives for writing this thread was to attack JWs.
you have every right to write your thread and I really didn't think it was an
attack piece at all. It was mainly what followed! So I offer you my sincerest
apologies!
I share a lot of witness beliefs but my mind remains open to all possibilities.
some people become so intrenched in the dogma of their religion they will
simply never do a self truth examination of what they believe. It just takes
them to far out of their comfort zone. Did you Know last year they
found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave
had carved please Lord "L" save me!

GloriousPoetry
27th February 2015, 19:02
Jagman,
Interesting info on the 3000 year old cave in Israel.....could the slave have been referring to a Lord he witnessed as an interdimensional being or an E.T. apparition? I believe all Biblical Scripture was written by men and twisted to fit a specific religious dogma.....there are some good messages in scripture but to adopt the whole male god program is too limiting for me.
I believe organized religion is a man's club.......I've liberated myself from this club a long time ago...

I am a sovereign soul destined to expand from soul's expression in this world and beyond my physical stay here.....no need for an external male god to dictate what my spiritual substance is.......

An invitation to create from a higher place in this world arrived from a spiritual substance that is formed in the divine providence of my soul...an inner light that grows with every moment that knows where my heaven's cords fold between this world and divinity's flow........

What if we are all self-begotten.... created from our own spiritual substance and this world is merely a state we call humanity of which we have all chosen to express at this time as one facet of our soul's evolution?

Twig
28th February 2015, 00:59
MOO=my opinion only;

Truth, Acceptance and tolerance is the key. I have peeps from all walks of life and to me thats all they are..Peeps, just like me. Peeps with their own beliefs, their own opinions their own likes and dislikes.
If you enjoy each others company then the rest SO DOES NOT MATTER...

Religious beliefs were designed to divide.

panopticon
28th February 2015, 04:45
Did you Know last year they found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave had carved please Lord "L" save me!

G'day Jagman,

I didn't know about that.
I've spent a couple of hours trying to find it but haven't as of yet.
Could you provide a link or a bit more information please (I don't want to go off topic but am interested).

@GP
What is this, primary school?
"I don't want to be friends with the Jehovah's Witness girl anymore."

Then don't be friends!

Say it clearly and concisely. Oh, and be truthful about why.

It ain't bloody rocket science...

From my brief glossing of this thread it sounds like she has good reason to want to believe everything that has happened to her has been for a purpose.

I've known some JW's and periodically one of them calls me to ask why something happened. By way of example. A woman I know, who'd be about 70 now I guess, called me when one of her son's suicide a few years back, before that when her husbands died about a decade earlier. I guess her knowing I'm a non-theist allows a certain freedom in questioning her beliefs (though in a manner that it isn't obvious that's what she's doing).

I think a year or so ago one of them left the Church and joined a more mainstream group but I don't pry as it's not my business.

No, they are not my friends. They are people who I met through someone else.

It's actually quite funny because I was blacklisted by the JW's back in Western Australia (my interpretation of Micah 4:1-5 is just one of the problems JW Elders have with me lol) so they used to get all cloak & dagger when talking to me. :spy:

Now I'm in Tasmania they just use the phone...

Anyway, back to the OP.

You are both adults, so explain (to her) why you no longer wish to see her.

Simple.

-- Pan

jagman
28th February 2015, 05:29
Quote Posted by jagman (here)
Did you Know last year they found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave had carved please Lord "L" save me!
G'day Jagman,

I didn't know about that.
I've spent a couple of hours trying to find it but haven't as of yet.
Could you provide a link or a bit more information please (I don't want to go off topic but am interested).



It was on national geographic show or discovery? I will try and find it for you. I was intrigued myself
when I first heard of it.I think It was the "Assenes" But they called him lord God "L"

panopticon
28th February 2015, 11:02
Did you Know last year they found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave had carved please Lord "L" save me!

G'day Jagman,

I didn't know about that.
I've spent a couple of hours trying to find it but haven't as of yet.
Could you provide a link or a bit more information please (I don't want to go off topic but am interested).

It was on national geographic show or discovery? I will try and find it for you. I was intrigued myself
when I first heard of it.I think It was the "Assenes" But they called him lord God "L"
Thanks Jman that would be really good if you could.

Did you mean "Essenes"?
If so, I don't think they were around in 1000 BCE.

Maybe you're thinking of the "Assyrians"?.
Their empire existed well before that period and long after but I'm not sure.

So yes, it would be greatly appreciated if you can point me in the direction of the documentary because I enjoy researching the archaeology behind discoveries like that.

-- Pan

Agape
28th February 2015, 15:03
Did you Know last year they found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave had carved please Lord "L" save me!

G'day Jagman,

I didn't know about that.
I've spent a couple of hours trying to find it but haven't as of yet.
Could you provide a link or a bit more information please (I don't want to go off topic but am interested).

It was on national geographic show or discovery? I will try and find it for you. I was intrigued myself
when I first heard of it.I think It was the "Assenes" But they called him lord God "L"
Thanks Jman that would be really good if you could.

Did you mean "Essenes"?
If so, I don't think they were around in 1000 BCE.

Maybe you're thinking of the "Assyrians"?.
Their empire existed well before that period and long after but I'm not sure.

So yes, it would be greatly appreciated if you can point me in the direction of the documentary because I enjoy researching the archaeology behind discoveries like that.

-- Pan



I've seen related documentary some of which ( only ) covers the area of the Middle East ...

MfIrHrQg0EY

but , there's a trove of information available now , different historical perspectives .. little fragments of past that sometimes fit together , mostly are overlapping each others historical epoch .
What you may find surprising ( or not ) is that 3000 BC even these areas of Middle East that are now in the centre of 3 major monotheistic religions were in fact , occupied and divided between tribes ( many of whom are named in Bible , as contemporaries or certain events and prophets ) who were so diverse when it came to 'God worship' and other religious matters that you could clearly call their culture 'pantheistic' - in the same manner Hinduism is considered pantheistic religion today ( though , from esoteric perspective and also practical understanding of devotees , each of 33 000 possible manifestations of Divinity are still , a manifestation of One - Divine Consciousness ) ,

and the word 'EL - which ( I think ) is inscribed in Hebrew with Aleph and Lambda and it appears in names like 'El-isha' , 'Eli-jah' , 'Is-ra-El' and so forth ,
where 'EL stands for 'God' ,
it means Exalted/Noble - interestingly the same root as AL' in Allah and 'LAs' in Lama ( where La' means again, 'Noble' and Ma means 'Mother' ) ,

the 'EL' , according to the documentary , as Jag says comes from an older tribe /historical period where El' was both Gods - Elohim ( Light Beings - plural ) and later evolved to single EL' ( the rule of Els , Elohim , the most exalted of Gods ) .

He even seemed to have female counterpart at some point, that's at least what the documentary says .

Now , that's of course not the end of the story ...

Egypt who was an ancient seat of knowing for thousands of years at one period was in a way , largely pantheistic - with varying degrees of religious freedom in each of its periods - its rules attempted to 'unite' large territories and hundreds of neighbouring tribes and people under 'one faith' but that kind of effort was more liberal - where religion is concerned - than most of todays disputes among religious 'monotheists' .
People were 'allowed' to bring their religions ( or God totem ) in and basically , incorporate them to the larger 'metaphysical territory' ,
the same way you'd add a bust to the museum and it would hence become part of its heritage ,

and so also , Egyptian culture ( the knowledgable part of ..) was incredibly rich with concepts , ideas and relations - within - after some time ,

and its of course, historically , where all these people came from, with their alphabets .

I've read somewhere ( not sure with source , it's long ago ) that the letter 'LA' ( or L as you say ) was so sacred that it was pronounced only in special time , in Egyptian temples , considered the 'higher octave' of R , which of course , was sort of common letter and also the letter of God RA - the God of Sun with all its complicated symbology ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra


Despite of what todays history books suggest ( but do not know ) , both at the height and fall of the Egyptian empire its essential knowledge was exported and seeded elsewhere , thus it could be saved .



:angel:

sandpainter
28th February 2015, 17:20
Dear GloriousPoetry,
Thank you for raising this troubling subject. This is a very difficult situation - to see someone you care for - totally entranced by a life-oppressing religion. I know the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society from the inside out. Many years ago some of my very best friends were taken captive by this mind-control organization. It took a lot of pain and many years for them to escape. Not to be mean about it, but I think you should remember that your friend's basic objective in keeping in touch with you, is to recruit you. So beware! She probably turns in the number of hours she spends with you as part of her weekly paperwork on the 'witnessing' work. Seriously. This is what they do. If she ever wants to learn something about her own masters that might eventually help her to break free you could advise her to read "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Carl Olof Johnson and to hear former JWs Vincent Eastwood,Jordan Maxwell and Santos Bonacci reveal the actual truth about who really runs that terrible organization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYJHZYa1CRg Once your friend understands that you are trying to get her to quit the cult she may either start to question her prison of beliefs or quit the friendship. Best wishes to you both!

annacherie
28th February 2015, 19:16
Dear GloriousPoetry,
My sister (now passed) was a JW so your thread touches me and I think raises an interesting fundamental question about consciously making deliberate moves in relationships before organic changes occur of their own accord. It took me decades to realize the lack of respect my sister harbored for me (some part of me really needed acknowledgement from her until I finally realized and accepted, that, in her mind I really had nothing to offer spiritually...) underneath her friendly and engaging personnae and when I did it became much easier to develop clarity of who I was to her in that relationship (which then i was able to stop giving my power away to her). Intimacy grows out of respect. So the question becomes for me is how to hold space for feelings, otherwise they just get diffused. Give yourself some time and distance away from your friend to see what unfolds . I think true love will withstand both. Best wishes...

GloriousPoetry
28th February 2015, 21:06
Panopticon,

If I thought my decision in ending this friendship with my JW friend was easy I wouldn't bother creating this thread and wanting feedback from people who have had more experience with people of this religion. My friend holds her religion as her primary focus in her life. I have learned to care for her as human being which makes my decision difficult because I see how her religion makes her feel insecure and unworthy about many things. She is very devoted to her religion and after 30 years of being a JW I don't believe she would give it up.

GloriousPoetry
28th February 2015, 21:43
Sandpainter,

Thank you for your input regarding my friend doing ''witnessing work".....she is very devoted to her religion so I believe you are most likely correct about her spending time with me and having the interest to recruit me while also reporting her hours spent with me.......I find this creepy.

I think I'm going to follow Jake's advise who posted on this thread that I should mention to her that I meditate as a turn off point for her. I don't want to invest my energy in explaining to her what I believe about her religion..... I rather fade away form her life.

Agape
28th February 2015, 22:56
Glorious Poetry .. I read from your post that you need to move forwards in life ( is that correct ? ) and that your friend stagnates - of sorts - in her personal evolution and she won't move fast .
I would not blame it all on her religion . Religions after all, are personal choice and something to match peoples personalities and inclinations and the way I see people who insist of depending on certain religious cults like the JW ,
these groups tend to attract and collect the weakest of the weak - it's their 'mission' after all .
Similarly , you may be tired of this person feeling weak and reliant on your support .

If it was me , I'd probably suggest saying something like 'I need a break and focus on my own journey' .
Not sure from your post on what terms are you being friends or how often do you see each other ..

I don't think that much explanation is needed or that it would help . Whatever she suggests ( about you or God ) I'd still insist on needing the break and focus on your journey .

It does not equal breaking your friendship. You may see each other in a month or half year and see where did you get since ... or choose never look back.


Hope it helps :angel:

GloriousPoetry
28th February 2015, 23:28
Thank you Agape and everyone else here who have taken their time to give me advice,

Yes you are correct about religions being a personal choice and they do indeed match people's personalities.......and you are also correct about me being tired of this friend being weak and reliant on my support.

It is time for me to move on......wishing her the best but I am an independent thinker who must continually expand on my journey.

panopticon
1st March 2015, 10:12
Did you Know last year they found a 3000 year old cave Israel. On the markings of the cave the slave had carved please Lord "L" save me!

G'day Jagman,

I didn't know about that.
I've spent a couple of hours trying to find it but haven't as of yet.
Could you provide a link or a bit more information please (I don't want to go off topic but am interested).

It was on national geographic show or discovery? I will try and find it for you. I was intrigued myself
when I first heard of it.I think It was the "Assenes" But they called him lord God "L"
Thanks Jman that would be really good if you could.

Did you mean "Essenes"?
If so, I don't think they were around in 1000 BCE.

Maybe you're thinking of the "Assyrians"?.
Their empire existed well before that period and long after but I'm not sure.

So yes, it would be greatly appreciated if you can point me in the direction of the documentary because I enjoy researching the archaeology behind discoveries like that.

-- Pan



I've seen related documentary some of which ( only ) covers the area of the Middle East ...

MfIrHrQg0EY

but , there's a trove of information available now , different historical perspectives .. little fragments of past that sometimes fit together , mostly are overlapping each others historical epoch .
What you may find surprising ( or not ) is that 3000 BC even these areas of Middle East that are now in the centre of 3 major monotheistic religions were in fact , occupied and divided between tribes ( many of whom are named in Bible , as contemporaries or certain events and prophets ) who were so diverse when it came to 'God worship' and other religious matters that you could clearly call their culture 'pantheistic' - in the same manner Hinduism is considered pantheistic religion today ( though , from esoteric perspective and also practical understanding of devotees , each of 33 000 possible manifestations of Divinity are still , a manifestation of One - Divine Consciousness ) ,

and the word 'EL - which ( I think ) is inscribed in Hebrew with Aleph and Lambda and it appears in names like 'El-isha' , 'Eli-jah' , 'Is-ra-El' and so forth ,
where 'EL stands for 'God' ,
it means Exalted/Noble - interestingly the same root as AL' in Allah and 'LAs' in Lama ( where La' means again, 'Noble' and Ma means 'Mother' ) ,

the 'EL' , according to the documentary , as Jag says comes from an older tribe /historical period where El' was both Gods - Elohim ( Light Beings - plural ) and later evolved to single EL' ( the rule of Els , Elohim , the most exalted of Gods ) .

He even seemed to have female counterpart at some point, that's at least what the documentary says .

Now , that's of course not the end of the story ...

Egypt who was an ancient seat of knowing for thousands of years at one period was in a way , largely pantheistic - with varying degrees of religious freedom in each of its periods - its rules attempted to 'unite' large territories and hundreds of neighbouring tribes and people under 'one faith' but that kind of effort was more liberal - where religion is concerned - than most of todays disputes among religious 'monotheists' .
People were 'allowed' to bring their religions ( or God totem ) in and basically , incorporate them to the larger 'metaphysical territory' ,
the same way you'd add a bust to the museum and it would hence become part of its heritage ,

and so also , Egyptian culture ( the knowledgable part of ..) was incredibly rich with concepts , ideas and relations - within - after some time ,

and its of course, historically , where all these people came from, with their alphabets .

I've read somewhere ( not sure with source , it's long ago ) that the letter 'LA' ( or L as you say ) was so sacred that it was pronounced only in special time , in Egyptian temples , considered the 'higher octave' of R , which of course , was sort of common letter and also the letter of God RA - the God of Sun with all its complicated symbology ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra


Despite of what todays history books suggest ( but do not know ) , both at the height and fall of the Egyptian empire its essential knowledge was exported and seeded elsewhere , thus it could be saved .



:angel:

Thanks Agape.

I must have had a brain freeze because for some unknown reason I didn't associate "L" with the Canaanite etc Head God "EL" (even though I am well aware of the myth and all the other parts of the argument you mentioned re ELohim etc and EL's consort Asherah etc).

I have no idea why it happened (must be more tired than I thought) so thanks for the assist.

-- Pan

spiritwind
1st March 2015, 16:04
Dear Glorious Poetry,
I grew up in the JW faith and I can tell you without a doubt that if she is still heavily programmed and unquestioning of her belief then she is very well trained to be obedient. That's all they could talk about at my adopted mother's memorial service, was how obedient she was, and almost nothing else, as if that was all that really mattered. And yes, their underlying motivation with spending time with anyone who is not a JW is to convert them. That doesn't mean she might not also have an underlying subconscious desire to break out of that thought prison. But from what you relate of your relationship with her, it does sound unlikely. Just my 2 cents worth.