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Omni
3rd April 2015, 04:59
I have seen countless people state "Time is an illusion". I wholeheartedly disagree. If you think time is an illusion, please engage me in respectful debate. :)

To this date nobody arguing time is an illusion has been able to present their point of view with rational thought/reason/logic(to me). I have never seen an argument that time is an illusion that holds any credibility or weight and it dumbfounds me to see so many people stating time is an illusion(of course without any reasoning to back it up). It's always just the potent NLP of "time is an illusion" without any advanced reasoning. I would love any debate with those who think time is an illusion. However I think that will not happen in a very in depth manner. I don't think the 'time is an illusion' idea holding people can rationally argue their side to be quite honest... Time being an illusion is without any rational thought or true understanding what time really is IMO. Please do prove me wrong if you disagree :) And please do read this whole article before engaging in debate if you plan to....

Full Article:


Time is Not an Illusion

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uk2zCcUthyQ/VR4SjRxRJpI/AAAAAAAAA6U/XATlyzCb3Js/s320/5951368139_72610c0d14_b.jpg

This one's a doozy. I know when I disagree with even Einstein about a subject I am in a vast minority.

Time is not an illusion, and I will explain my perspective in this blog post. Figuring out the true illusions is one of the harder tasks to undertake on planet earth. I have found the term illusion misused on wide occasion. It is a potent word I'm sure the shadow governments prefer being used erroneously, as many people do(even very intelligent people).

I have heard a lot of people state they experienced places without time. This just shows they do not understand what time actually is. Anything with a past, present, and future involves time. For example one person I was debating with stated when we dream time is not present. His argument was that we have no perception of past present and future in a dream(which is arguable in itself, as I have detected the future of my dreams before). He seemed to be saying what the senses perceive dictates if there is time or not. Such is a fallacy. The senses can be barraged with illusions... In a dream there is time, even if our senses of it are not the same. Just because we have no perception of past, present, and future in any state, doesn't mean that such does not exist for us...

Without time pretty much nothing is possible in my view. Time in my view is the true 4th dimension of reality. Take away the construct of time and nothing can happen. There can be no unique segments of happenings without time.

Einstein said this:


"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." - Albert Einstein
For anything to happen at all, time has to be present. So everything happening at once would also include time. And it's reason is better summed up by existence, and what is necessary for existence. So existence itself is the reason for time in my view...

Time is one of the essential ingredients of existence. If you think otherwise please comment and tell me how something can transpire without time. It simply cannot happen. Motion, thoughts, experiences, and existence itself are not possible without the construct of time. Has anyone truly ascended out of time like many channeling sources claim? Short answer, No. Nobody escapes the construct of past, present, and future in any form in the universe in my view(minus a scenario like having one's soul destroyed, which I am not sure is possible).

Even if everything is all happening at once or is all planned and already happened(which I do not personally subscribe to), and having the ability to travel through time to any point, the core element of time still exists for you. One has a past, a present, and a future while traversing through time in that scenario. One has a perception of a sequence of events, the fabric making multiple events possible at all is time. Time may have some illusory qualities, just like quantum physics. However it truly does indeed exist, bar none in my view. Anything stating otherwise is misinformation or worse in my view.

When someone says time is a manmade concept this just shows they do not understand what time really is. The mapping of time, such as seconds, minutes, hours, day, weeks, months, and years is arguably manmade. I personally think extraterrestrials were behind some things like our measuring of time. So maybe even that wasn't manmade.

What I relate to a truly timeless experience is being completely asleep or fully blacked out. That is a timeless experience, a truly timeless experience is an unconscious experience for consciousness is not possible without time. Some may argue that consciousness is possible without time, and I would love to debate that. I don't think that perspective is thinking things through, or has an understanding of what time really is. Consciousness by it's very nature involves various different thoughts. Without time different thoughts are not possible. Time is what makes a sequence of events possible. A sequence of events is not possible without time. A timeless existence is non-existence in my view...

Time is relative to perception. One's perception/experience of time can change, while the hardcoded-into-the-universe time itself does not change. Time may even have open source qualities such as time travel into the past or future(I do not think such is the case but I could be wrong). Time travel does not make time an illusion. To be able to experience another time, time has to be existent in the form of a personal past, present, and future, even if the 'timeline' of the universe can be traversed, making the future an illusion that it is truly the future(not time itself). Everyone has a personal set of time in that case, not that it's an illusion.

Anyone who says time is an illusion does not understand what time really is. That is the truth in my opinion. If you disagree please engage me in debate, I love debating stuff like this. Every time I've gotten into a debate about time with someone, the ones saying time is an illusion do not use logic in their points, and cannot debate my reasoning at all. To be quite frank, I think they were just mesmerized by the potent NLP in the phrase "Time is an Illusion". It's a catchy phrase that is loaded with NLP potency. However it is misinfo or worse to say time is an illusion in my opinion. And I see countless people fooled by this idea. Many of them are even intelligent individuals who otherwise mostly think things through.

If you think time is an illusion(AKA not real), how do you explain a very real past, present, and future that binds all beings? If you think time is truly an illusion, then what exactly makes a sequence of events possible? Why is it we are always in a present moment, with a future and a past, if time does not exist? Anyone?

Source Link: http://omnisense.blogspot.com/2015/04/time-is-not-illusion.html

Wookie
3rd April 2015, 05:27
Perception like belief and truth are relative. It is possible that I perceive reality in a much different way. Limiting oneself to the construct we have been taught to believe in does not make it real. The cage we have locked ourselves in is strong and full of "truths" like time and math. To trust in our perception to be the only "truth" because it is the one we believe in is what makes our cage strong. Let go of ones pride and know that we know nothing. IMO perception can be altered in many ways, even in a way that might not include time in its "truths".

Peaceful Journeys Wookie

Omni
3rd April 2015, 05:41
Perception like belief and truth are relative. It is possible that I perceive reality in a much different way. Limiting oneself to the construct we have been taught to believe in does not make it real. The cage we have locked ourselves in is strong and full of "truths" like time and math. To trust in our perception to be the only "truth" because it is the one we believe in is what makes our cage strong. Let go of ones pride and know that we know nothing.
I personally think knowledge is possible. I know more than nothing. If anything I know myself. Perception of the truth can wildly sway from objective reality, however knowing one's self is more sturdy I think.

I do not think the truth is relative. Perception of the truth is what's relative IMO. In my view there is an objective reality, that is simply what is objectively truly happening or what truly exists. As Mark Passio states, the truth is simply what is. And it is obtainable IMHO.

I agree that perception and beliefs trap many people in 'cages'. However I think it's a cage in itself to think the truth is unobtainable, and one knows nothing.



IMO perception can be altered in many ways, even in a way that might not include time in its "truths".

Peaceful Journeys Wookie
How can a perception perceive anything without a sequence of time allowing thought? Time is the fabric that makes sequences of events possible. Perception is fully dependent on time to be existent IMO.

Wookie
3rd April 2015, 06:18
Have you ever known something only later to find out you were wrong, I have. To perceive without the need of measurement does not need time so would time be included in that perception? I agree that knowledge and truth are obtainable, but at a personal or group level. For example one persons terrorist is another persons hero. One persons illegal drug is another persons best friend. Both are known and both are true yet completely at odds with each other. Because I have not seen proof that humanities Truths, like time, are not universal does not limit the possibility that somewhere somehow there is no "time". The tools we use to explain our reality could be out dated, see what I did there :)

Omni
3rd April 2015, 06:32
Have you ever known something only later to find out you were wrong, I have.
Many times. I reassess my beliefs every time they are challenged. I'm not sure anyone could get everything right based on intuition or knee jerk assessments. I am in constant re-evaluation of my beliefs minus the ones that I know for sure are true. Even the ones I know are true I re-evaluate momentarily when challenged.


To perceive without the need of measurement does not need time so would time be included in that perception?
You don't need to measure time for it to be there. I have not paid much attention to time for years, only when I have to really. Time is what makes a sequence of events possible. For a perception to explore anything it takes a sequence of events(or sequence of thoughts).


I agree that knowledge and truth are obtainable, but at a personal or group level. For example one persons terrorist is another persons hero. One persons illegal drug is another persons best friend. Both are known and both are true yet completely at odds with each other. Because I have not seen proof that humanities Truths, like time, are not universal does not limit the possibility that somewhere somehow there is no "time". The tools we use to explain our reality could be out dated, see what I did there :)
Some things are fully subjective, so a truth is not exactly existent for such things. What I mean by objective reality is for example when you are feeling something, there is a certain amount of energy in your mind. That energy can be measured by advanced technology and it indeed exists. That energy exists objectively. Or another example, say someone gets thrown in prison for growing weed. The subjective part of that is opinions about if its ok to grow weed or not. The objective part was they grew weed and are in prison now.

Thanks for the posts wookie :)

Agape
3rd April 2015, 07:16
Time is a spin , simple as that . From the minutest quanta of energy to the macrocosm of events , everything is constantly in motion .

Solidity IS an illusion .

We call 'solid' whatever corresponds to OURS quantum state of matter , it yet does not mean to say there are not even more 'solid' realities in the Universe ,
however ..every single of them is an expression of time-space .

In past, I think , simple people were fascinated with the idea of 'time' , as in watch , and that everything moves according to some regular order .
So they abstracted 'time' as if it was some sort of independent entity .

In reality it isn't . It's time-space , and there are many variations , alterations and generally many time-spaces ( or space-times ) whose qualities all evolve in synchronicity with other systems ,
in reality they are 'Time-Space Fields' .. within them there are swirls and focal points that give birth to Stars etc etc ,
all kinds of loops , waves and ripples .

But this is what you get commonly through out the Universe , large time-space fields of certain quality within whom galaxies are formed . Time is a spin ..

if you look to single photon , one sparkle of energy .. the way it moves is determined by the overall quality of its time-space field .
Whilst large number of such photons move chaotically , there are sub-fields of them forced to follow the higher organisation, structure of matter where they are trapped ..

so they don't have much choice .

bearhug

araucaria
3rd April 2015, 08:10
Time is a dimension: you can operate outside of time just as you can operate outside of a spatial dimension. The conflict between the ‘cabal’ and the ‘alternative community’ can be seen in terms of our number of dimensions, which the former seek to reduce and the latter to increase.

We have three dimensions of space, but on the surface of this planet we are mostly restricted to two. Extending upward includes such things as spacefaring, UFOs, alien encounters, life after death, and much closer to home, air travel. Extending downward leads to the exploration of hollow earth theory, underground cities and the like. All these things are frowned upon, including everyday air travel, with a spate of plane accidents and demented pilots to put us off. Pollution means we can’t see the stars (the night sky has come under U.N. protection!), and chemtrails mean we can’t even see the sun and blue sky. And secret programs generally seek to blot out this third dimension of space.

If you also remove the second dimension of space, you end up with a labyrinth. A classical labyrinth was one-dimensional space with two directions: in or out (you couldn’t get lost). A modern maze is a prison because although there is no door, you are stuck in one dimension although now with plenty of side tracks and dead ends to make you lose your bearings. The inventor of the labyrinth, Daedalus, escaped from his prison on the island of Crete by regaining the second dimension through mastering the third: he built himself wings and was able to fly back to the mainland. His son Icarus had a vector issue, underestimating the second dimension and overindulging in the third: he came too close to the sun and fell out of the sky when the wax in his wings melted.

So we understand how ‘time is an illusion’ becomes a weapon against our freedom. Or if it is not seen that way, one-dimensional time is not so much a total illusion as an apparent prison (without a door). Escaping from this prison will likely involve the mastery of something like a three-dimensional time such as ‘timespace’.

See this discussion: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?71360-What-is-REAL-SCIENCE&p=833867&viewfull=1#post833867
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?71360-What-is-REAL-SCIENCE&p=833664&viewfull=1#post833664

Edit: Symptoms of 1D time: forward (the day-to-day grind), backwards (history, archaeology), leading to sameness of the two: the time loop (repetitive destruction of civilizations).

Agape
3rd April 2015, 08:41
In abstracts , you can operate deliberately just with any term you choose , any unknown , any constant .

The theories on Time are old , not older than Time itself i guess ..

yes even the Universe has its own time .. can we even imagine , stretch our mind that much to infinity ..

and then , you speak of timelessness and quantum leap .

Patterns like theories come and ago. It's referred to as the 'primordial illusion' , something you can't really 'undo' no matter what you try .



Time is painless ... what does pain is when living beings , especially , try to 'fix' the time , adjust its flow for they have to ..

it's our 'living time' vs 'their universal time' ,

we reflect fraction of the fragment of the silver weaving , called Life of everything that IS.



:flower:

Agape
3rd April 2015, 08:58
You may want to read this book to your children one day ... it has lots in it to tell ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(novel))

Momo, also known as The Grey Gentlemen or The Men in Grey, is a fantasy novel by Michael Ende, published in 1973. It is about the concept of time and how it is used by humans in modern societies. The full title in German (Momo oder Die seltsame Geschichte von den Zeit-Dieben und von dem Kind, das den Menschen die gestohlene Zeit zurückbrachte) translates to Momo, or the strange story of the time-thieves and the child who brought the stolen time back to the people. The book won the Deutscher Jugendliteraturpreis in 1974.


It certainly played a role in my early development ;)



Quotes from the book ... http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/momo.html



All dwelling in one house are strange brothers three,
as unlike as any three brothers could be,
yet try as you may to tell brother from brother,
you'll find that the trio resemble each other.
The first isn't there, though he'll come beyond doubt.
The second's departed, so he's not about.
The third and the smallest is right on the spot,
And manage without him the others could not.
Yet the third factor with which to be reckoned
Because the first brother turns into the second.
You cannot stand back and observe number three,
For one of the others is all you will see.
So tell me, my child, are the three of them one?
Or are there but two? Or could there be none?
Just name them, and you will at once realize
That each rules a kingdom of infinite size.
They rule it together and are it as well.
In that, they're alike, so where do they dwell?



"Just as people have eyes to see light with and ears to hear sounds with, so they have hearts for the appreciation of time. And all the time they fail to appreciate is as wasted on them as colours of the rainbow are wasted on a blind person or the nightingale's song in a deaf one. Some hearts are unappreciative of time, I fear, though they beat like all the rest."



"What [Momo has] just seen and heard wasn't everyone's time," the professor replied, "it was just [her] own. There's a place like the one [she] visited in every living soul, but only those who let me take them there can reach it, nor can it be seen with ordinary eyes."
"So where was [she]?"

"In the depths of [her] own heart."

Slorri
3rd April 2015, 09:14
Has anyone truly ascended out of time like many channeling sources claim? Short answer, No.

Equally short answer: Yes.

We can easily do this through Remote Viewing / Clairvoyance. If we do, we realize that the past and the future is always there. Everything is indeed happening at once, but it is experienced sequentially; And that is the very illusion of time.

Johnny
3rd April 2015, 09:49
Time IS an illusion :)

IMO.

There was a time before time, that time is not called 'no time' but timelessness, and timelessness has no start and no stop, but is in a way the playground for time.

We can say: "There is no time for ...... (whatever) now", but it is not the same as timelessness. Time would not exist without timelessness.

I really don't know where to start :) but I will give it a try :whew:

Let us me try to define culture. Culture is the way we use time. E.g. people in the mountains do not live (use their time) in the same way as people at the oceans. People in huge cities do not live (use their time) in the same way as people in small towns. Etc. etc.

National borders are derived by history (time), but is an illusion (to nature, also). National borders is only ideas made so the so called authorities know who they can collect tax from. I do not think that shadow governments will have we become really aware of this.

There was a time were the communism was a great idea in this world. Ideas brings me to the branching, where we can say: " Use the time and/or be used by the time".

The idea of the communism is not so great anymore, because there are not so many that gives it energy (awareness). That is how we can stop the time for communism, but the idea will always remain. ( I've never even been a Communist myself).


So, if you continue yourself with a lots of examples, you will properly reach a point, where you will say something like "Stop the world, I want to get off". That is where you can go into the timelessness and from that point rearrange your world (reality). And you do not really 'go into' timelessness, because it is not a place, it has never left you, but if you never has experienced it, you will not know it, and here is a weird thing, there are no really words for it, so you can have done it countless of times, whiteout knowing it.

From the 'point' of timelessness, you can visit all kinds of time/s sometimes also called dimensions :)

There is (can be) a time for everything :)

Space time IMO: Space is infinite, and in the infinite we can not measure anything, but when we add the concept time, we can start a new universe :)

Thank you for the thread Omniverse. :muscle:

Here is a good one with Alan Watts: Af85afJIeBo

Baby Steps
3rd April 2015, 10:19
Thanks, Omni,
Do you know if time runs faster in higher dimensions?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKThxVPBvA

Agape
3rd April 2015, 11:01
Do you know if time runs faster in higher dimensions?



Much slower usually which is given by the age/maturity of the particular system where life is allowed to strive .

:shielddeflect:

/yet , also , such systems preserve comparably massive amounts of energy compared to younger star systems, for example .
So by the amount of energy invested to the momentum ..the time factor is quantified , that's to say .. it reaches better equilibrium with space .. and the whole time-space is more lively , more flexible than the one here .


So in that we may also observe how Time has its own Time progress ... in levels ..

Finefeather
3rd April 2015, 11:05
Time can most certainly be illusive.

To understand this we need to realize/accept that the word 'time' is man made...a unit which we have created to divide our world up for the sake of convenience...it has very little meaning in higher dimensions/worlds, although it does equate to, and is directly related to the overall duration of other events in the cosmos.

We have used this 'time' to measure the duration of various events in our physical reality, and this has resulted in a very positive state, in most cases, where we can perceive the past, present and future...we can say something happened 2 hours or 2 years ago and most of us will know the relativity of the event. However this is not always that helpful because many people cannot even get their heads around 200 years ago, never mind 2000 years ago.

Have you noticed that animals, who have no idea what a watch is, are able to be on 'time'...and very accurately I might add...for events which they consider of some use in their lives? They are driven by cycles.

The Cosmos is a creation which is governed by cycles and the closer we get to the centre...the source...the faster 'time' appears. Everything that starts has a cycle which determines its ending and we need to go no further than to take notice of a common sine-wave...where it begins and rises to it's peak and then dips down to it's supposed ending.
But we know that things cannot just stop in thin air and so most cycles continue for as long as there is energy driving the manifestation.
Of course life is not as simple as a sine-wave and the wave construction of events can be quite complex.

When out of body I can do a number of things with time as we know it...because I am no longer bound to the physical 'time' we have created...
1. I can experience time exactly as we do normally...this lets me know that I am in the etheric realm or world.
2. I can experience time much faster and can do things in a few seconds which would normally take hours in physical time...this tells me I was in the mental world. In the mental world we create with thought and thought is the fastest 'time' we can experience.
3. I can, and have, stopped the second hand of a clock...well it does not really stop but it seems to because I can actually wonder off in my mind and when I return to physical reality the second hand has not even moved one second!

There is no such thing as a manifested future...like some believe...all future is merely a state of probability, and can be changed...so to think that everything exists at the same time is incorrect and frankly quite illogical. If everything that ever will take place already is taking place, then what exactly is the point of life. Life is a consciousness evolutionary process. There are many time-lines but these are simply probabilities which are possible due to effects which have resulted from previous causes. Every cause has an effect and every effect becomes the cause of the next event. The choice which we have in life is choosing the cause which we belief will render the best effect in our lives...we don't always make the right choices so the effects are often disappointment in our lives.

Of course there is what we can call planned future events, like the time the bus arrives and we just have to hope that on that planned day the bus is not involved in an accident...which we did not plan for because we were incapable of seeing the rest of the probabilities for the day :)

So time can certainly appear to be an illusion, but it depends on our knowledge of cosmic cycles and how duration and our time relate to each other.
There is only one reality...all the 'other' realities which people talk about are the illusions.

The term “We created our own reality” is only true whilst we are still in a less conscious state in our evolution. The purpose of evolution is to expand our consciousness which means that we have more knowledge and experience and wisdom to be able to see the bigger picture.

We are not a super being yet so there are many things which we cannot explain simply because we are very far from higher knowledge.

Those who think they know it all are the most ignorant because the more you know the more you realise how little you know.

Take care
Ray

Agape
3rd April 2015, 11:25
I don't think we can argue with Ray and other natural philosophers about the metaphysical nature of time and the way we experience it individually
which is yet another level requiring two blueprints of understanding
so it could be successfully compared to the third ..

but what I meant essentially is simple , and space- dependable ..it can bend ..

the trick is that people have the tendency to dissect certain things down to their meanings and they lose what they started with at first place,
that is Time&Space .

Time is NOT your ticking clock and what they probably taught in school physics yet few years ago.
I'm not even sure what they put there now, to be honest .


But time is how fast your planet rotates around its axes and how fast it completes its ecliptics around Sun and also how much mass and energy your Star inherited at start and how fast is it spending it .

To explain it simply , imagine living on merry-go-round . That's where we live , on spinning globe ..
and every form of living perception we have , except our distant memories is subjective to the constant velocity of the system .

Now , you may argue there are some really aged neutrinos that saw the beginning of the Universe passing through us at all times , but .. they're small .. and hard to question ..



:coffee:

araucaria
3rd April 2015, 11:37
We are not a super being yet so there are many things which we cannot explain simply because we are very far from higher knowledge.
Yet, the time limitation; far, the spatial limitation, two forms of separation contained in the connectedness of the here and now, two notions describing the one and only paradoxical thing. Another time-based exploration of timelessness is music. You can hold a piece of music in your hand (on a disc), but its essence lies in the extended duration of the moment.

5kxcD0mU9jo

Agape
3rd April 2015, 11:50
It's like a ... movie slide , I guess . But it has deeper aspects to it ..

for example ..the way events create records in the Universal 'matrix' of time-space ,

look way past ...you can not .

We were not here when the Universe 'started' ..

you can only to see upto what you call a Big Bang , huge shiny event from where your present 'Universe' unfolded .


That's when/where you think Time starts .


Thanks Omni


:star:

Johnny
3rd April 2015, 12:01
But time is how fast your planet rotates around its axes and how fast it completes its ecliptics around Sun and also how much mass and energy your Star inherited at start and how fast is it spending it .



With all due respect Agape, you forgot this:0jHsq36_NTU

That the sun is moving too :)

Johnny

Agape
3rd April 2015, 12:03
Sorry , I don't know to whom am I talking to here but thought it's rather obvious :sun:

ZooLife
3rd April 2015, 12:11
When we name something as an illusion including the very word 'illusion' does that somehow make it real?

......conjuring with words.


In the beginning was the Word.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J59fSD4cUQ

Baby Steps
3rd April 2015, 12:13
Do you know if time runs faster in higher dimensions?



Much slower usually which is given by the age/maturity of the particular system where life is allowed to strive .

:shielddeflect:

/yet , also , such systems preserve comparably massive amounts of energy compared to younger star systems, for example .
So by the amount of energy invested to the momentum ..the time factor is quantified , that's to say .. it reaches better equilibrium with space .. and the whole time-space is more lively , more flexible than the one here .


So in that we may also observe how Time has its own Time progress ... in levels ..

Thanks, Captain A!

29395

Agape
3rd April 2015, 12:32
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/Aikatwo/8a431a109ebea219a5932a3b066a5388_1.jpg (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Aikatwo/media/8a431a109ebea219a5932a3b066a5388_1.jpg.html)

Can you hear me ? ( to the tunes 'I'm sailing' ) says ET and waits for dial tune ..


Thanks back :star:

ghostrider
3rd April 2015, 13:47
we are really only counting the rotation of Earth and it's rotation around the sun ... I wonder if the Earth sat still like the moon , how would we count time ??? interesting thread BTW ... it's good to learn to embrace possibilities ...

Sunny-side-up
3rd April 2015, 13:50
I personally think this whole realm/matrix is an illusion.
We are not who or what we really are, neither is our so called universe of matter, our realm.

So all is illusion including any concept of time.

Time as we know it is a large part of our-jails-bars, it's in the equation to limit us, confine us, jail us. The more I accept any concept of time in such away the more I feel empowered and real.

One day we will really know who or what we are and see the big picture.

Jake
3rd April 2015, 14:56
Time is the rate at which we notice change around us,, and the rate of noticeable change is different for each of us,,, AND is different for different groups of beings... So, time is,, AT LEAST subjective to the observer,, showing the RATE of time to be a myth, altogether... (no observer,, NO time,,, sound familiar? ) There is a style of traditional OBE that I have labeled a 'real time' projection,, it is the non-physical locale closest to the physical that seems to be in real time.. There are time slips in this locale, meaning that I may experience a scene from 1945 outside my house,, but I am still aware of the 'passing of moments'.. Trying to notice rates of change in MUCH higher vibratory states of being will become impossible, as we are vibrating faster than physicality. Observing the physical spectrum from faster/higher states of being,, brings the physical world to a STOP... (from your point of view)... Beyond a real time projection there is no need for time,, though if you like,, you can always become aware of 'passing of moments',, if you prefer...

If I pop over into your head, and you into mine,, we'd be immediately baffled by the different colors we see.. lol... we have all labeled them the same words,, so we dont realize that we are all seeing different colors.... do you see? Rates of change and observation are completely different for each observer... Ye, quite illusory! !! :)

Einstein observed an insseparability between space and time,, ie,,, if I walk accross a room, I am traveling through space, but it takes a couple of seconds, so I am also traveling through time... no way around it... SPACETIME.. Space is a concept of physicality,, and NOT all worlds or 'domains' are limited by physicality... Therefore,, not all worlds are limited by Time...


We humans carry the ability to transcend our physical bodies, and therefore get to step outside of the illusion... When we do, we exist in a non-physical Astral or even Mental environments that do not require passing of moments..

The insseparability of space and time are only for physical points of view.. A new physics (set of axioms) are coming into view.. We are like monkeys,, peering out of a tree,, only now realizing that it was just a tree...


Use your illusions,,,
Jake

Natalia
3rd April 2015, 15:08
Song about time travel

I00tfkTaOw0

Rich
3rd April 2015, 15:22
Poor ET he didn't know there was an extra charge for interplanetary phone calls.
----------------------------------



One day we will really know who or what we are and see the big picture.
I've seen this personality/human from my higher mind he was
absolutely tiny it became so obvious and I had the thought ''this is NOT me''.
And now we get to experience the affect of our imagination,
as if it was a huge journey through time and space while for our higher
mind it was just a tiny passing thought....
----------------------------------

Great explanation Jake, although I don't understand why you say that time and space are not connected in other dimensions.
----------------------------------

OMG
3rd April 2015, 15:24
Definition: Time is a succession of instants while space is a system of associated points.

I always liked that definition from the Urantia Book.
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-118-supreme-and-ultimate-time-and-space

Wind
3rd April 2015, 15:52
Time is certainly relative and we experience it subjectively. :)

For instance animals like my dog don't have the same kind of sense about time... They are only living in the eternal moment of now. We humans often live in the past through our memories or in the future through the feelings of hope or fear. It sometimes takes a lot effort just to remain in this moment of now, because of our thoughts. There is no "time" in eternity. Good discussion btw.

DzS77izJ13w

ljwheat
3rd April 2015, 16:36
I agree that time is a passage of moments, like a motion picture passing before a lens. That is the human condition we all are trapped in a bubble of NOW, every time one stops long enough to examine one frame or put anything on pause. its always now. People talk about ancients, no matter how fare back you go millions or billions or trillions or eons before concepts of time and movement one can not escape the eternal moment.

It's like trying to find the screen your seeing this screen on in your head. Where is seeing what your seeing seen? Is seeing just a thought? or just a perception of trillions of brain cells firing all in the same moment. So where is this sight your seeing in this moment. awareness you now say? Then one moment built on the next is just a construct of moments real or none real makes no difference, "What is always was" what was always will be, in the now.

Constructs with out end, its only were the lens of perception is focused is how this computer and our brain lay's it just in front of us to view. who is the watcher on this side of the looking glass. All ways ever present the part of us that's not part of this world but in it? this is why so many say time is an illusion. find the screen your seeing this screen on. then the illusion may take shape as just presumption.


Look at deep Space, where is time with out a reference point , like up - down - right or left. it will exist only if we look at it. thoughts only make it so..........

Time fly's when not looked at. Coma no passage of thought, so time stops for that individual, One can only remember back into child hood as fare as the concept of the passage of time is learned. at the moment when your parents said to you wait ! and your reaction to it was Cry. wait what is wait? all you knew was now, and your need is now. and all your thinking was about the now.

DeDukshyn
3rd April 2015, 16:38
"Time is not an illusion"

This statement is true and not true. We do have false beliefs in time -- we tend to believe time acts linearly -- this is an illusion. Time does not behave linearly, so that aspect of our definition of time is an illusion.
Does time "exist"? Well, it might be rather hard to deny it's existence, but there are still questions, like does consciousness affect the subjectivity of time itself?

I am not sure that anyone who says "time is an illusion" is actually trying to deny its existence -- but rather to deny the qualities we have been led to believe about it without proof and in denial of some of our (like myself)'s experiences with it.

I have personally experienced several vivid instances of myself connecting back or(and) forward in time but not separated by locale (same location but experienced more than one "time" at once, at that location). Scientists might tell me that is impossible - but it obviously was possible because it happened to me, indicating we believe falsities about our relationship with time.

My 2 cents on that ;)

Jake
3rd April 2015, 16:53
Poor ET he didn't know there was an extra charge for interplanetary phone calls.
----------------------------------



One day we will really know who or what we are and see the big picture.
I've seen this personality/human from my higher mind he was
absolutely tiny it became so obvious and I had the thought ''this is NOT me''.
And now we get to experience the affect of our imagination,
as if it was a huge journey through time and space while for our higher
mind it was just a tiny passing thought....
----------------------------------

Great explanation Jake, although I don't understand why you say that time and space are not connected in other dimensions.
----------------------------------

Well,, in my experience,,, ALL dimensional locales are a product of the higher consciousness that created it... Space is part of the illusion of physicality... in a pure mental environment, there are no 'objects' and no 'space' to notice a rate of change of... The thoughts and impressions in our pure being are what we are. No rate of change,, no time... Though,, like I said,,, we can (if we prefer) create a sense of time and become 'aware of the passing of moments'. But even that is a creation, and illusory... (in that example, we created time, but not space...) :)

I believe that there are vast quantities of physical universes.. physical spacetime universes... Not just the ONE... I will sometimes refer to a physical universe as a 'stardust' universe,, dense, earthy, , made of SAND... Observing a rate of changes in a physical locale creates the illusion of time,,, ie,,, THE SANDS OF TIME!!!!

The further we are from the physical belief system territories,, the less we observe its changes.. No observation of change means No Time...

I have a place that I go sometimes when I leave my body... Not this world, but another physical world,, another life.. (only been back a couple of times, really..) In this place, I am on a beach with a woman.. we are in love.. I am napping and dozing off.. each time I wake,, she giggles and says something like "see there, you did it again,, you were day dreaming." To which I denied, but doze off again... Only to wake with her giggling again. She says something like "Where do you go???"

I do not have the words to explain to her that I am living another life as a musician, on another planet in another universe at another time..

I cannot begin to wrap my wee mind around these things as long as I cling to a definition of time.. Take time out of the equation and it makes more sense... Even Einstein knew that.. lol...

""I took a walk around the world, to ease my troubled mind..
I left my body lying somewhere in the SANDS OF TIME..
I watched the world float to the darkside of the moon.
I feel there's nothing I can't do!!""

Jake

Johnny
3rd April 2015, 16:57
Time is certainly relative and we experience it subjectively. :)

For instance animals like my dog don't have the same kind of sense about time... They are only living in the eternal moment of now. We humans often live in the past through our memories or in the future through the feelings of hope or fear. It sometimes takes a lot effort just to remain in this moment of now, because of our thoughts. There is no "time" in eternity. Good discussion btw.



I have a cat that sometimes dreams, but of course cats are obviously much smarter than dogs !!! Just kidding :)

A side effect by allowing timelessness to unfold, is that life become much more sensual, not over night, but gradually you will think less, especially if it dawns on you that thoughts are a side effect to time. And the question could be: "Is everything you think your time ??"

Maybe you should leave your location (under your avatar: collective dream) :)

Much love Johnny

Wind
3rd April 2015, 17:05
I have a cat that sometimes dreams, but of course cats are obviously much smarter than dogs !!! Just kidding :)

Hey! :) My silly dog dreams all the time too, sometimes he runs and eats while dreaming. Sometimes tries to bark...


Maybe you should leave your location (under your avatar: collective dream) :)

Now how do I do that? I have only realized that I'm just a dreamer within a dream...

Shadowself
3rd April 2015, 17:09
I have only realized that I'm just a dreamer within a dream...


VZyNKrYo9I4

For my own part, I have never had a thought
Which I could not set down in words
With even more distinctness that which I conceived it.
There is however a class of fancies of exquisite delicacy
Which are not thoughts and to which as yet
I have found it absolutely impossible to adapt to language.
These fancies arise in the soul,
Alas how rarely, only at epochs
Of most intense tranquillity
When the bodily and mental health are in perfection.
And those mere points of time
When the confines of the waking world
Blend with the world of dreams.
And so I captured this fancy
Where all that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

4-CeOWDBoFg

Camilo
3rd April 2015, 17:13
I feel that depending on the circumstances, time can be both, real and an illusion. Everything is relative.

Carmody
3rd April 2015, 17:20
'Time is an illusion' is a provocative statement, for a reason.

It is to create a shock moment of perception shift.

In one context it is true, in the whole/greater context, it is not.

It would be more accurate to say that:

'Common perception on the rumination of what time is, is generally in error and notably incomplete in overall connectivity and perception envelope'

However, that, as a statement, does nothing for the 'normal' consideration of how minds or human intelligence, as tied to the biological being, how that pairing cognates or comes to the doorstep of a potential idea of life changing potential in cognition.

As a slap to the perception bundle of eyes, mind, reading, etc - the short catchy phrase, is more effective. The more correct (longer) statement provides little in the way of a 'functional' hook.

'time is an illusion' is pure market-speak, and in that is wholly effective in vital ways. Just like all proper human literature is.

It is even possible to call Shakespeare, Buddha, Jesus, Confucius, etc...among the the greatest marketing geniuses of all human history.

In the same moment...things like girl bands, boy bands, major league sports, news television channels, Lady gaga, etc, are likened to a bag of chocolate covered Turd Doritos, full of parasites and worms/toxins.

Jayren
3rd April 2015, 17:23
Funny you post this when I actually recently had an experience with "time". Yesterday actually my mom left me with my baby sister because she needed to go to the gas station to get gas. She went to get the keys out of the room and the baby started crying because she saw her and wanted to get out the crib. So I told myself if she kept crying by 8:50 I would take her out and spend time with her but she was originally supposed to go to sleep according to my mom. So as im waiting for the time to pass it instantly leaped from 8:43 from when I first thought that to 8:46. I thought to myself no way could 4 minutes pass this quick, I wasn't suprised though because it was not the first time time for me had skipped like that. So as im still looking at the clock to see it change it wouldn't for a really long time as if it were 4 minutes in just one minute, I ignored it for a minute to reply to a message on my phone and as I look up "magically" it is already 8:50. Amazrd I thought to myself maybe I should of just picked her up from the beginning when she first started crying, but when I got her she did stop. It was cool. Time may not be just an illusion, maybe we create the time we see and we establish the illusion itsself? Maybe it was higher forces at play or maybe time itsself is not what we think it is...

Johnny
3rd April 2015, 17:36
I have a cat that sometimes dreams, but of course cats are obviously much smarter than dogs !!! Just kidding :)

Hey! :) My silly dog dreams all the time too, sometimes he runs and eats while dreaming. Sometimes tries to bark...


Maybe you should leave your location (under your avatar: collective dream) :)

Now how do I do that? I have only realized that I'm just a dreamer within a dream...

Right now I do not know what to answer, because I am still laughing (the picture is: both you and your dog are running around dreaming together:) ) I will come with an update later :)

Love Johnny

== update ==

That you have realized that you are a dreamer within a dream, that should wake you up, at least it did to me when I realized it for me, it was really a wake up call. I will not deny your statement. Your life is your responsibility and only yours. Take a step further, that is all I can say right now.

Much love to you, and I should sent regards from my cat to your dog :)

Johnny

BF88
3rd April 2015, 17:38
All I can really say on this matter is time, as in the measurement of how long things take, is a man made idea. It is most definitely not an illusion whilst we are here experiencing it AND its existence beyond our physical reality. If time did not exist, what would? If everything happens at once surely everything also takes an eternity for without time there would be no way to measure how long everything happened at once!
What is an 'illusion' in my opinion is the nature of time. Here on Earth it is linear and you can say something happened yesterday and something will happen tomorrow perhaps. and I personally believe this to be something to do with the denseness of reality and objects in space, I was told it is something to do with the planets but can't say anything for certain on that. Once beyond the influence of physical objects my theory is that the nature of time is different, perhaps is slower or faster depending on how far away you are from large (depending on your perception) dense material. If you imagine a galaxy in a cluster of galaxies, all the clusters of galaxies have to be in some way local to each other, there must be a point that is furthest away from the clusters. This, I would imagine, is how you would measure the ACTUAL nature of time rather than the illusion of how it works that we experience.

BF88
3rd April 2015, 17:42
I have a cat that sometimes dreams, but of course cats are obviously much smarter than dogs !!! Just kidding :)

Hey! :) My silly dog dreams all the time too, sometimes he runs and eats while dreaming. Sometimes tries to bark...


Maybe you should leave your location (under your avatar: collective dream) :)

Now how do I do that? I have only realized that I'm just a dreamer within a dream...

My dog does that also! He can't quite get a bark out though its a bit of a squeeky sound! It's strange because he doesn't bark much when he is awake.

InCiDeR
3rd April 2015, 17:49
I don't know what I don't know, nor do I know what I know.

Yet both positions exists (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59941-Solipsism-the-biggest-spiritual-Con.&p=686440&viewfull=1#post686440) simultanously.

Is there a time frame between the two positions?

Knowing comes after not knowing?

Human meme would with high probability answer yes.

Yet it is a question of pattern,

or superposition of spin.

I would say vibrational membrane of vortex.

Bounding inbound and outbound from the zero point.

A change of pattern

doesn't mean that the "old" one cease to be

somewhere else

for someone to see

it will be in the past, the present or the future

depending on who is looking.

---

What defines time is human thought structure.

Without it human composition would not be in this perceived reality.

It makes the so called real real.

The darkness of the shadowless brighter

Creates colors in the reflection of the colorblind mind

The sound of silence echoes more transparent

Stabilising archetypes, flower becomes more flower

It makes the distinction between what is and what is not

---

What is the similarities between a lake and the sea?

Some might say: -Water!

Yet, the composition of the water is different.

Why assume that our lake

our reality

"needs" the same components

as other lakes in the vast ripples of universes?

---

Time is

where it ought to be

not so much

elsewhere

it in itself

hasn't got the time....

the time of illusion.

---
---
---


therefore

I have no need to travel time
I've found the open portal
That leads into the true sublime
The timeless and immortal

Carmody
3rd April 2015, 17:50
I agree that time is a passage of moments, like a motion picture passing before a lens. That is the human condition we all are trapped in a bubble of NOW, every time one stops long enough to examine one frame or put anything on pause. its always now. People talk about ancients, no matter how fare back you go millions or billions or trillions or eons before concepts of time and movement one can not escape the eternal moment.

It's like trying to find the screen your seeing this screen on in your head. Where is seeing what your seeing seen? Is seeing just a thought? or just a perception of trillions of brain cells firing all in the same moment. So where is this sight your seeing in this moment. awareness you now say? Then one moment built on the next is just a construct of moments real or none real makes no difference, "What is always was" what was always will be, in the now.

Constructs with out end, its only were the lens of perception is focused is how this computer and our brain lay's it just in front of us to view. who is the watcher on this side of the looking glass. All ways ever present the part of us that's not part of this world but in it? this is why so many say time is an illusion. find the screen your seeing this screen on. then the illusion may take shape as just presumption.


Look at deep Space, where is time with out a reference point , like up - down - right or left. it will exist only if we look at it. thoughts only make it so..........

Time fly's when not looked at. Coma no passage of thought, so time stops for that individual, One can only remember back into child hood as fare as the concept of the passage of time is learned. at the moment when your parents said to you wait ! and your reaction to it was Cry. wait what is wait? all you knew was now, and your need is now. and all your thinking was about the now.

Time in the mind, and ego in the mind, reflection in the mind, anticipation in emotions and thought formation in and of ego's circle of being ,bubble of being, envelope of being, etc... all occurred at almost the exact same moment..in our youth. That first moment of 'I', that first murmurings of the 'internal voice'.

(I still remember the exact moment it happened in my mind. The whole sequence and the days, the weather, where, how, all of it)

They are tied to one another, ego being the I, the internal voice, keeper of thought formation as tied to the record of time. Thus, it is the projector of, the formative point of future as creation, due to being the record of 'past events' for the given self.

ego, reflection, memory, history, projection....emotion and thought formation dictated by that set... all as one.

And this crap is in the driver's seat.... for the vast bulk of humanity.

I'm not a 'religious' person, but god help us all.

Being unrealized, that is what makes it dangerous, as it is confused as being the self.... when it is just the body's collective highest level biological function.

Wind
3rd April 2015, 17:55
My dog does that also! He can't quite get a bark out though its a bit of a squeeky sound! It's strange because he doesn't bark much when he is awake.

Like this? :)

This is a bit off topic now.

xBoRilB7lRY

Agape
3rd April 2015, 17:59
Yes we all know about Time inside our hearts , from the very subtle clock within there emanates subtle motion, impulse ..that impulse is Life ..

its first motion, first Law is Life

then only comes the Law of One

for this knowing alone

people keep shooting each other

for generations and generations ...


So we all know the Truth ... then comes the path of manifestation


...


All times are the right times in the great mandala of Kalachakra

behold the great TIMELESS MIRROR


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/Aikatwo/Mandala/mandala.jpg (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Aikatwo/media/Mandala/mandala.jpg.html)

Agape
3rd April 2015, 18:15
You can observe your Mind through this type of hologram really well . You can observe the subtle .. formations of thoughts .. images ... ideas ... even music .

You can observe how different parts of your brain reflect upon each other .. and what speed they react . How your Mind works ..

:angel:

Jake
3rd April 2015, 18:52
Yes, a dream within a dream.. Interesting that we keep coming accross this concept, Omni... jake giggles with joy...

I intend to wake up on a beach with a beautiful woman that I love...

Until then,, I must experience Now... past and future exist ONLY in my mind...

Even then,, I will wake from the dream, , again,, and again.....


(Besides I am with that beautiful woman right now, ,, in THIS dream...)

No worries...
Merrily Merrily Merrily Merrily...
Jake

Rich
3rd April 2015, 18:56
I cannot begin to wrap my wee mind around these things as long as I cling to a definition of time.. Take time out of the equation and it makes more sense... Even Einstein knew that.. lol...

Jake you may find what Bright Garlic said of interest: time does not exist only space.
When you have a memory you think about the distance between what happened to where you are now,
without that distance (space) the concept of time cannot exist. If you label point a to point b as space and not time then this theory holds no flaws.

Koyaanisqatsi
3rd April 2015, 19:36
Time is only measured by the events contained within it. This is why we all experience time as speeding up.....because it actually is i believe. its happening because more is occuring in the universe. More events crammed in changes how we perceive time i believe. The early universe before chemistry and biology formed was likely a boring place, with few events taking place. time was experienced as slow probably. As our universe becomes more dynamic and grows outwards, more is happening in creation so time is perceived as speeding up. Hope i didn't derail the main topi, just my lil shamanic two cents there

Agape
3rd April 2015, 19:52
There's a whole science of Time you are to come to unfold in future centuries .. me thinks .

If you look down to the tiniest micro particle available to you , you're left with near zero mass plus kinetic energy ,
now you can't ever separate the two . Whatever the energy potential is , it is, it comes in basic 5 categories .
In Sanskrit they are called the Tanmataras'. The root -matr in Sanskrit is almost similar in significance to the word matrix in todays English .

Both signify underlying 'grid' , subtle elementary structure that relies on 5 or 6 or how many you can name , basic principles .

So in case of these subatomic particles , you're also left with choice of 5 or 6 quantum states that define your dimensional system here .

Should you live in 12 dimensional systems of course the whole structure gets even more complicated .


Now each of these micro particles vibrates with certain frequency that again, is of 'another color' , another quality attached to it .

For example . Particle B ( yellow ) may vibrate B , C , D , E . Depending on their placement within the Timewheel , they produce different 'harmonics' ,
like a string of a violin

and last different amount of 'time' . The basic unit of time called one 'kala' lasts fraction of millisecond I think .

They together produce resonating field of certain qualities ..

that gravitate to focal points ,

that all has to do with entropy of system and pattern formation .. and why our Universe is round ..


and that's in on for tomorrow



;)

Omni
3rd April 2015, 20:49
Has anyone truly ascended out of time like many channeling sources claim? Short answer, No.

Equally short answer: Yes.

We can easily do this through Remote Viewing / Clairvoyance. If we do, we realize that the past and the future is always there. Everything is indeed happening at once, but it is experienced sequentially; And that is the very illusion of time.

Remote viewing anything requires time. Images in one's mind are not possible without a sequence of time present to hold them within the mind. No thoughts are possible without a construct of time IMO. Like I said in the article, time may have some illusory qualities, however it exists IMO, and no consciousness can experience anything without time. So no, IMO, nobody has ascended out of time like I meant in in that segment you quoted. I covered that premise by time potentially having some illusory qualities, just like physicality. However it does indeed exist IMHO.

To be able to remote view the future or past is not foregoing time completely(as I meant by the channeler comment). Just in that case time has illusory qualities such as the future not being the real future, and already happened. If people could remote view the future why is it nobody can predict with accuracy the full future? At best people predict events, like fukushima(which i predicted myself based on logic), but cannot predict the entire future. Anyone I've found with multiple events predicted right, has multiple events predicted wrong. What explains that?


Thanks, Omni,
Do you know if time runs faster in higher dimensions?
From what my contacts conveyed they said you can use technology to slow down or speed up time by altering the field of space one is in. I'm not sure time goes faster or slower in other dimensions but my guess is it's base rate is the same in other dimensions.


There is no such thing as a manifested future...like some believe...all future is merely a state of probability, and can be changed...so to think that everything exists at the same time is incorrect and frankly quite illogical.
I agree. If everything has already happened then there is no such thing as free will or choice. I think the future is unwritten, I believe in free will being existent(although not always existent for us due to mind control tech from my life's observations). I also think all beings in existence in our multiverse exist in the present moment. I find time travel illogical too,.. I will explain my views on that if anyone is interested.



I personally think this whole realm/matrix is an illusion.
We are not who or what we really are, neither is our so called universe of matter, our realm.

So all is illusion including any concept of time.
I respectfully disagree. For something to be an illusion there has to be something real to contrast it to, to define an illusion(AKA not real). If everything is an illusion there is no need for the word illusion and it could be considered as real. I guess it is somewhat subjective if everything is an illusion. I don't personally jive with that belief. If everything in the multiverse is an illusion, what is real? Nothing?


Time as we know it is a large part of our-jails-bars, it's in the equation to limit us, confine us, jail us. The more I accept any concept of time in such away the more I feel empowered and real.

One day we will really know who or what we are and see the big picture.
Time allows for existence. Freedom or enslavement is not possible without time for sequences of events/thoughts. Time makes freedom or enslavement possible IMO.

Agape
3rd April 2015, 20:56
So it is interesting in a way because for example, when you think you are touching objects or space around you , you're actually , also touching time-fields .

Now we think it's not the Space that governs Time but that it is the Time .. the more subtle category running the show ..




:angel:

wnlight
3rd April 2015, 22:10
When I pay someone by the hour, I check the time before and after because my perception can be different than the reality. The next time I hire someone by the hour, I will tell him that "time is an illusion." That way I owe him nothing. :-)

DeeMetrios
4th April 2015, 00:45
great reading .....
my conclusion at this present moment in my reality/life is ..... "time exists"
because in this shared reality upon gaia , we have scientific historical & visual evidence of time passing , eg children & flowers growing , fruit & meat spoiling if not stored etc etc .....
So Im with Omni on this topic > time exists because i believe "the Bosnian Pyramids are real " and the "Yonaguni monuments are man made & not natural formations" ;)
cheers

ZooLife
4th April 2015, 00:46
When I pay someone by the hour, I check the time before and after because my perception can be different than the reality. The next time I hire someone by the hour, I will tell him that "time is an illusion." That way I owe him nothing. :-)

Better yet.....Monopoly money....same diff.

https://thetoyshopblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/monopoly-money.jpg

http://www.businesspr.today/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/monopoly-man-and-money.jpg

Omni
4th April 2015, 01:47
Just got this thought:

Time might be a major thing that is truly timeless(in that it has no beginning or end in saying timeless). I do not believe time had a beginning.

13th Warrior
4th April 2015, 02:13
Agape,

I often cannot comprehend your messages but, this one on the relativity of time/space i do believe I fully get your point and agree.

T Smith
4th April 2015, 03:25
araucaria beat me to it... time is a dimension. It has concrete measurement, in terms of past, present, future. The measurements are not illusory, but they are only the dimensions of a holistic reality. You could say past, present, and future "exist all at once" which is what people mean when they claim "time is an illusion". But to throw your premise a bone, that doesn't mean the measurements themselves, e.g. past, present, future, are illusions, any more than up, down, or sideways of a cube are illusions.

Just as up does not depend on down or sideways, or down does not create sideways or up, these dimensions exist irrespective of each other and in a holistic sense regardless or our measurement (or perception) of them separately or linearly. In other words, the dimensions we assign to space are but conceptual constructs by which we understand space.

The dimensions we assign to time, specifically the cause/effect element that transmogrifies the present from the past to the future, are also but conceptual constructs by which we understand time. They are a set of dimensions that exist simultaneously in the present. Our consciousness (what we call present) continuously alters the landscape of these dimensions, kinda how a kaleidoscope alters the landscape of it's intertwining reflections by adjusting the tube. The analogy fits because the mirrors ensure that past and future are connected (via measurements of dimension) and follow complex mathematical rules dependent upon the present, and specifically, how we turn or adjust the tube. But in a sense, the entire landscape is but an illusion. Thus, to say, "you can't change the past," is both correct and incorrect. A more precise statement would be, "you can't change the past of the present that has already materialized the future (past and future are connected and inseparably entangled via dimension), but you can certainly change the present (which by default, changes both).

If one is tempted to discount this reasoning as illogical or incredulous (I'll grant it's certainly counter-intuitive), we need only study the strange world of quantum entanglement to understand this is precisely how things are. We can correlate two atoms (entangle them) and then separate them in time. Let's say by a million years, for sake of illustration. We can place one atom in the past and one in the future. Both atoms exist relative to their being in 3d-space in the present, but in a holistic sense, there are now two dimensions of the present, past and future, interacting with each other. Just like with a kaleidoscope, any alteration of the present in either atom instantaneously alters both the past and the future of each atom, even when separated by a million years. This is simply the reality of nature. The conclusion is inescapable: the present alters both the past and the future, the later two being illusions of the former.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the past and the future do not exist, but I do understand how the reasoning behind the ethereal claims that insist on time being an illusion.

Agape
4th April 2015, 06:57
Just got this thought:

Time might be a major thing that is truly timeless(in that it has no beginning or end in saying timeless). I do not believe time had a beginning.

...that's only true as long as you look from within the 'time' . For anyone looking from within each dimension ( and I'm speaking of purely mathematical dimensions like space vectors, the time , space , forms , formlessness etc . ) each dimension seems 'endless' or , as they say of 'indefinite measures' .

The term 'indefinite' ( as in 'indefinite number of particles in the Universe' ) sounds similar to 'infinite' but in reality it's more like 'impossible to define' with any substantial level of certainty so we say we think it's either of those ..

Beyond that ( in dimensional sense ) though , there is a 'steady state Universe' , with or without cyclical motion . Now , it's nearly impossible to prove whether such Universe exists but periodically , it's possible to observe certain synchronicities in 'time' that may allude to such idea ,
even though - and that's until 'general relativity ' expands bit further , they are so far , forcefully explained by laws of thermo-dynamics as anomalous property of the 4D Universe people think of inhabiting .

Which is a gross underestimate on human side of matters because by the nature of abstraction and awareness beyond phenomenal existence ,
we do already operate in 6 dimensions consciously ( or less ..) here .

So if you think of 'steady state Universe' it's more like giant , mostly homogeneous mass of undifferentiated space-time that by its nature does not move a lot .
Even once there appears any motion at all .. we can't speak of time since compared to the 'mass' ( property ) it's motion factor would be insubstantial .

By long derivation from there ... which can't be 'simply done' by using directive logic since we speak of one vast infinite containing another vast infinite ,

'chaotic Universe' of motion comes to being .

It would be similar to imagine the 'mass' of the giant mirror getting heated and started cracking in irregular beats ... Universe bursting to laughter ... :o

So from this 'irregular beats' of several vectors ( directions or categories ) 'chaotic Universe' comes to motion ..
as long as the great 'mass' /mirror ( for your fancy imagination ) continues to crack, melting from its original steady state in waves
and repeated patterns that in result , we basically , understand as time ..

because to measure something it has to repeat itself ( like a heart beat ) and we can measure time with some accuracy ( as in the decay of Caesium atoms ) because the 'impulse' of the heartbeat of matter there is repeated so it can be also measured .


Of course , there are more cosmological theories on 'how time comes to being' , the Big Bang being one of the less fortunate .. but it became so popularised during last century ..

and in broad sense .. who knows it may be responsible even for rise of global terrorism


:shielddeflect:

Slorri
4th April 2015, 09:19
Has anyone truly ascended out of time like many channeling sources claim? Short answer, No.

Equally short answer: Yes.

We can easily do this through Remote Viewing / Clairvoyance. If we do, we realize that the past and the future is always there. Everything is indeed happening at once, but it is experienced sequentially; And that is the very illusion of time.

Remote viewing anything requires time. Images in one's mind are not possible without a sequence of time present to hold them within the mind. No thoughts are possible without a construct of time IMO. Like I said in the article, time may have some illusory qualities, however it exists IMO, and no consciousness can experience anything without time. So no, IMO, nobody has ascended out of time like I meant in in that segment you quoted. I covered that premise by time potentially having some illusory qualities, just like physicality. However it does indeed exist IMHO.

To be able to remote view the future or past is not foregoing time completely(as I meant by the channeler comment). Just in that case time has illusory qualities such as the future not being the real future, and already happened. If people could remote view the future why is it nobody can predict with accuracy the full future? At best people predict events, like fukushima(which i predicted myself based on logic), but cannot predict the entire future. Anyone I've found with multiple events predicted right, has multiple events predicted wrong. What explains that?



I can address this, as I have some experience with it.

Firstly, I agree with you that time exist and no consciousness can experience anything without time. I add to that: illusions exist, they are real, it's just that they are something else than what they appear to be.

The fact that remote viewing (RV) takes time to perform does not matter. What matters is that we can go outside of the limitations of time. We can see now what happened yesterday. It is not guessing, not conjecture, it is not memory; It is a complete bypassing of time and space. (RV within a protocol is a scientific discipline).

This describes an ascending out of time.

Be it by RV, clairvoyance, prophetic dreams, or altered states of consciousness, but not by logic. Logic is strictly limited to the confines of space and time. Logic is illusionary.

Now, the reason why we can't accurately RV (the past or the future) is because it is difficult to RV. We struggle in our attempts of doing it. But it is possible. And that proves positively that there is no separation in space and time. This on a more fundamental level than we experience it. We definitely experience a separation in time and space in our daily life, but during RV we notice that the separation was just illusionary. An illusion we need in order to exist.

It does not prove anything about the future if we predict it wrongly. We can be wrong on just about anything. But if we predict it correctly, that proves a lot; It proves that it was there to be seen, i.e. it exist already.

Sunny-side-up
4th April 2015, 10:15
Groucho Marx was a good one to ask about time, here are two great quotes of his including the concept of time:

“Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.”
― Groucho Marx


“Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, and I'm going to be happy in it.”
― Groucho Marx


http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/43244.Groucho_Marx?page=1


“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”
― Groucho Marx

Had to add that one ;)

araucaria
4th April 2015, 10:30
Groucho Marx was a good one to ask about time, here are two great quotes of his including the concept of time:

“Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.”
― Groucho Marx


“Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, and I'm going to be happy in it.”
― Groucho Marx


http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/43244.Groucho_Marx?page=1


“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”
― Groucho Marx

Had to add that one ;)
Blessed are the bananas, for their fruit shall boomerang.



Thesis: Time flies like an arrow (popular wisdom)
Antithesis: Fruit flies like a banana (G. Marx)
Synthesis: Time flies like a banana (araucaria) :)

Agape
4th April 2015, 11:12
Of course , there are more cosmological theories on 'how time comes to being' , the Big Bang being one of the less fortunate .. but it became so popularised during last century ..

and in broad sense .. who knows it may be responsible even for rise of global terrorism




I think it would be helpful in fact to write long article on 'Potential Influence of Big Bang Theory on makings of Human Society'

which phenomenon touches , even indirectly , some of the core stones of human believes .. since every epoch on Earth whether religious or anti-religious had its own cosmological perspectives and sooner or later in life,
you have to confront your own opinion on matters like how big is the Universe and how it came to being .

The 'Big Bang Theory' vs 'Steady State Universe' ( neither as simple as they sound ) really does have major disadvantage ..

number one , it proposes creation 'ex nihilo ' , basically .. then tries to explain in reverse manner how possibly did the 'first singularity' come to being which leaves you with infinite number of 'previous Universes' at the end ..

but what happens then is the blast . So if you teach to people there was a 'big blast' of antimatter at the beginning and that's how it all started
and well , you're not even close to explaining the rest ..

the psychological impact on global human society is that they think that 'blast' , puff and it's sorted .

On the other hand , if you can offer sufficiently grounded theory on orderly Universe where all has its time and place and logic ,

little human minds too would start seeking more peace ..

What is more conflicting ..than the discrepancy between religious creationism ( one hand extreme, act of intelligence and loving kindness ) and Big Bang Theory ( another extreme , brute act with no higher logic than the one -you - can determine ) .



So maybe there's a hope .. for world Peace ... not in sorting religions vs science but refining and redefining some of those leading cosmological perspectives .




Anyone getting me :yo: thanks.

araucaria
4th April 2015, 12:16
Rupert Sheldrake:

As Terence McKenna expressed it, ‘What orthodoxy teaches about time is that the universe sprang from utter nothingness in a single moment… It’s almost as if science said “Give me one free miracle, and from there the entire thing will proceed with a seamless, causal explanation.”’ The one free miracle was the appearance of all the matter and energy in the universe, with all the laws that govern it.

This is religion slipping into science through the back door. This is how the ‘seamless, causal explanation’ covers less than 4% of the universe. Religion’s God is a seamless, single-causal explanation of the universe that also leads to trouble with a large quantity of very dark matter of its own. The Big Bang offers a similar type of highly centralized administration except we don’t have the identity of Mr Big who bangs. What science usually fails to acknowledge and religion dismisses as miracles – I say dismisses in a non-pejorative sense of promoting into the domain of the transcendent – is the existence of acausal, i.e. non time-dependent, processes on every scale – from the tiny Jungian synchronicities we can all experience to the cosmos-changing effects that anyone (perhaps not everyone) can bring about. But that is not a subject for conventional science, it is north of the North Pole as Stephen Hawkings would say.

Slorri
4th April 2015, 15:25
Rupert Sheldrake:

As Terence McKenna expressed it, ‘What orthodoxy teaches about time is that the universe sprang from utter nothingness in a single moment… It’s almost as if science said “Give me one free miracle, and from there the entire thing will proceed with a seamless, causal explanation.”’ The one free miracle was the appearance of all the matter and energy in the universe, with all the laws that govern it.

This is religion slipping into science through the back door. This is how the ‘seamless, causal explanation’ covers less than 4% of the universe. Religion’s God is a seamless, single-causal explanation of the universe that also leads to trouble with a large quantity of very dark matter of its own. The Big Bang offers a similar type of highly centralized administration except we don’t have the identity of Mr Big who bangs. What science usually fails to acknowledge and religion dismisses as miracles – I say dismisses in a non-pejorative sense of promoting into the domain of the transcendent – is the existence of acausal, i.e. non time-dependent, processes on every scale – from the tiny Jungian synchronicities we can all experience to the cosmos-changing effects that anyone (perhaps not everyone) can bring about. But that is not a subject for conventional science, it is north of the North Pole as Stephen Hawkings would say.

And there is also retro-causation. This affecting events that happened before them.

Agape
4th April 2015, 19:06
There is time within a time within you , your own time . It's where you are you , as a free being , emanation of intelligence , free expression of the Universe ..

God does not place dice ..but likewise , he/she/it does not have to repeat itself even one more times ,
and that's His sovereign choice .. you may think, you are predictable or that there are predictable events . You may be right and we may be also wrong .

The point is .. Universe and its Science embraces one Law because in reality , the whole Universe is a unique phenomenon, a happening ...


Universe is as you are . Stars can giggle or cry in your eyes .. be small or big in distance .

9E6b3swbnWg



ET the pathetic conartist :violin:

13th Warrior
4th April 2015, 19:12
To put it simply; anything that has motion has a time component to it...

from the atomic spin of the atom to the orbital paths of stars, planets, galaxies, sound and light, et cetera...

The personal perception of time certainly can be illusory.

Agape
4th April 2015, 19:17
To put it simply; anything that has motion has a time component to it...

from the atomic spin of the atom to the orbital paths of stars, planets, galaxies, sound and light, et cetera...

Yes because motion implies change ..and periodical repetition of these motions create resonance and resonance generates more powerful patterns of energy that give birth to matter structure ...

but behind it all , there's motion .. so there's time


:angel:


aWmj1bMR4Mo

Agape
4th April 2015, 19:48
A single time momentum may look something like this , a sine wave :

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/Aikatwo/SineWave.png (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Aikatwo/media/SineWave.png.html)

Imagine the horizontal and vertical lines of the graph respectively , to represent evolution of hypothetical time event .
At T 0 the event occurs , as if you break crystal vase ( i did once as a kid ) .. in sequence , one by one tiny fragments of your glass fly out one after another .
Their kinetic potential that creates 'forwards motion' creates residual 'backwards motion' that keeps holding to the 'past image' of the vase .

Thus the event creates imprint in time-space , your memory of the vase but basically, of course , you can't capture Time 0 .

Every frequency in space naturally oscillates along sine wave in order to save /condense energy , so does time .


It's one perspective of course ..


In other words , what I wanted to say is that while Universe keeps 'moving forwards' it keeps saving its own memory , image .. as imprint of past events , in many copies ..

and they can be used later to replicate events ..

Agape
4th April 2015, 20:16
Time is also thought of as limitless but is it ..

we think that time is cyclic occurrence ( like a :heart: beat ) , the Universal Time i mean , it has 'Days' and 'Nights' .

When so called Mahapralaya occurs ( according to Vedas ) , the 'Night of Shiva' - who represents the oldest Entity , the Universal Time ,

Universe returns to steady state . For long .. but what it does , it stores memories of previous patterns and significant events .. so next time it wakes up from the slumber and another 'Day Time' begins it can use some of its previous memories to evolve itself .

Memories - imprints are stored in form of forms ;) ok, formations , informations , patterns .


The theory can go even beyond but I am not certain about my health insurance would cover it ..


PS : In fact , on this planet , we are closer to the true nature of the Universe than we have ever been ..

Tangri
5th April 2015, 00:43
Time is not an illusion, it is part of the reality which creates additional dimension and cause multiple probabilities.( but practising in daily life is.)

In humanity there is a perceptional misconception.( It is a manipulated perception disorder for modernised slavery .)

Every living being has a time, birth, grow, death, even ET life form use time but their concept of time is not look like, our hour- day- month -year scale (sun rise-down, seasonal, lunch, dinner, sleep time).

Tangri
5th April 2015, 01:00
It is hard to explain colour of white to a born blind person.

Omni
5th April 2015, 01:13
It is hard to explain colour of white to a born blind person.

Hmm good point. I find it hard to explain any color actually in that case...

zen deik
6th April 2015, 08:33
Remain open-minded but don't let your brain fall out

WhiteLove
6th April 2015, 11:10
Sure, I'll take that debate with you, but I am going deeply. :blackwidow:

Imagine a black bullet. Does it have any boundaries? The answer is both yes and no. If you move into it up to infinity, its boundaries are not going to exist anymore. If you move out of it up to infinity, it is so limited that it does not exist anymore. Imagine that creation - the vacuum that the bullet exists in - has the same properties as the bullet. The question is then, who is looking into that? The answer: You my friend, but not the you that you are RIGHT NOW. So now we have a thesis. If I am the being peering into all that is, and if another version of me is seeing a subset of all that is HERE AND NOW, then that must mean that there are two different points in time relative to me? Or? Now let's imagine that the difference between the two versions of you is not you, but the state you are in. Now that would mean that in absolute terms the here and now is actually the same, it's the state of being that is different and takes various forms. What if that state of being exists only now? That would mean that there is only now and in now you are all states all at once. If this is the case, you would exist in infinite parallel universes all at the same time, where in each of these universes you are in a particular state of being. Let's also then assume that the tick speed is relative to each such universe, now we are dealing with multiple illusional times relative to you, but we still know that in absolute terms there is only here and now, it is the state of being that constantly varies.

Question left unanswered: Is this true?! :p

Peace of Mind
6th April 2015, 19:12
Time is simply the measurement of movement, nothing more nothing less.

Peace

InCiDeR
6th April 2015, 19:54
What if
the event horizon and singularities
and all other "dark" things
are more than meet the blind eye.

What if
all quantum states are recorded and entangled
to be borrowed
when the "time is right"
by someone who reaches for the jump of faith or quantum leap.

Will they jump in space or time
or just change the pattern, the "reality" surrounding them?

Does variation equals time
or is time just another variation?

----

...or maybe I just have vivid dreams....

Agape
7th April 2015, 11:41
Sure, I'll take that debate with you, but I am going deeply. :blackwidow:

Imagine a black bullet. Does it have any boundaries? The answer is both yes and no. If you move into it up to infinity, its boundaries are not going to exist anymore. If you move out of it up to infinity, it is so limited that it does not exist anymore. Imagine that creation - the vacuum that the bullet exists in - has the same properties as the bullet. The question is then, who is looking into that? The answer: You my friend, but not the you that you are RIGHT NOW. So now we have a thesis. If I am the being peering into all that is, and if another version of me is seeing a subset of all that is HERE AND NOW, then that must mean that there are two different points in time relative to me? Or? Now let's imagine that the difference between the two versions of you is not you, but the state you are in. Now that would mean that in absolute terms the here and now is actually the same, it's the state of being that is different and takes various forms. What if that state of being exists only now? That would mean that there is only now and in now you are all states all at once. If this is the case, you would exist in infinite parallel universes all at the same time, where in each of these universes you are in a particular state of being. Let's also then assume that the tick speed is relative to each such universe, now we are dealing with multiple illusional times relative to you, but we still know that in absolute terms there is only here and now, it is the state of being that constantly varies.

Question left unanswered: Is this true?! :p


OK alright but that's only one bullet ..


Now imagine Universe of such fairly non existent yet flying bullets crossing the space , criss cross , in various multileveled patterns and formations ,
some stopping at fairly invisible walls .. we call 'planes' ..or be it covers of greater 'spheres' , all so intangible and hard to measure
and impossible to contain.

Jake
7th April 2015, 14:41
"Past, present and future all showed up at the same time!!! Yeah, it was tense... lol..."

"What do we want? TIME TRAVEL! When do we want it? (Lol)"

"I called the future and the past into a meeting,, neither one was present.."



So how fast is time traveling? How long is a moment? How long is the future? When will it get here? In what direction is time moving? Why is time always up? Is it because time flies? Can I borrow time? What is the interest rate calculated as? Why is it always today, and never tomorrow? I learned to tell time once,, it has been telling ME ever since.. does time fit under a microscope? Can we put some in a bottle for later? How does it know how to get here? If ten seconds pass in a forest, and there is nobody around to experience it, did the ten seconds ever exist?

If I travel faser than the speed of light,, time stops!! So ALL principles of time can only exist within speed of light realities,, ie,,, physical/material worlds... Time can only exist in that box.. that box, my friend,, is an illusion... Therefore, TIME is an illusion..

Cheers
jake

Carmody
7th April 2015, 16:18
Rupert Sheldrake:

As Terence McKenna expressed it, ‘What orthodoxy teaches about time is that the universe sprang from utter nothingness in a single moment… It’s almost as if science said “Give me one free miracle, and from there the entire thing will proceed with a seamless, causal explanation.”’ The one free miracle was the appearance of all the matter and energy in the universe, with all the laws that govern it.

This is religion slipping into science through the back door. This is how the ‘seamless, causal explanation’ covers less than 4% of the universe. Religion’s God is a seamless, single-causal explanation of the universe that also leads to trouble with a large quantity of very dark matter of its own. The Big Bang offers a similar type of highly centralized administration except we don’t have the identity of Mr Big who bangs. What science usually fails to acknowledge and religion dismisses as miracles – I say dismisses in a non-pejorative sense of promoting into the domain of the transcendent – is the existence of acausal, i.e. non time-dependent, processes on every scale – from the tiny Jungian synchronicities we can all experience to the cosmos-changing effects that anyone (perhaps not everyone) can bring about. But that is not a subject for conventional science, it is north of the North Pole as Stephen Hawkings would say.

Science is rooted in hypothesis as conjecture, conjecture based on rumination in the realm of reason, reason being a projection of mind in the act of observation. Which brings one to the idea of observation hitting the quantum wall of inseparability.

It is mirrored recursive turtles all the way down.

It's the infinity paywall fulcrum, where consciousness has to acknowledge a payment to and of it's self, in order for order to 'be'.

Agape
7th April 2015, 16:35
What if
the event horizon and singularities
and all other "dark" things
are more than meet the blind eye.

What if
all quantum states are recorded and entangled
to be borrowed
when the "time is right"
by someone who reaches for the jump of faith or quantum leap.

Will they jump in space or time
or just change the pattern, the "reality" surrounding them?

Does variation equals time
or is time just another variation?

----

...or maybe I just have vivid dreams....




Don't forget to count you ( or your 'jumper' ) to the quantum equation . We are , as a matter of fact, floating in overlapping 'quantum fields' of which we can't make great sense or even take a notice
simply because we do not generate enough energy to 'lock ' into those fields .

Jake :

Myriads of phenomena happening unnoticed ... yet ... they are inevitable part of causality that can be tracked back ..

illusions are ... illusions . Large part of human mind works with and through itself - its own processors , metaphors, intel-circuits , memory drives , loads of software ,
and much of the above is ... artificial constructs of illusory character .

Reality is reality . There's one important part of biological intelligence that is more OR less capable of reflecting physical reality to certain degree ( isn't it just amazing ) .
It enables us to cope with environment .
Essentially , we do that only for own survival .


Biological Time mimics functions of 'sidereal time' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time) with some amazing accuracy .

Of course we have little if any idea that this is happening usually unless you 'get lost' , in place or in time .

However , our 'biological clock' is also adjustable .. it can align with other 'times' of dimensional realities if necessary .


''Catching up on time''

Entering a Time-Space field for the first time ..
how does it feel ?

Oh so marvellous , so exciting , everything that was old
is being transpositioned , transformed
to a new pattern

Yet .. I need MY time to marvel
at the flower of creation emerging
in its new timely cover up

My chaotic neurons chasing the fireflies
of photonic flashes of this new time
so un-coordinated , catching the picture ..

like child trying to get hold of big fish

so is catching up on time .


Illusion it is .. I'm the fish too :bigfish:

Rich
7th April 2015, 18:50
Guys, nothing that we can think of exists, only that which we cannot think of exists. If something is real it doesn't require a thought!!!!
We create the illusions so we can live, nothing wrong with it, it's beautiful.

I am not saying your theories are wrong, every theory is right depending on where one looks from, I am just offering yet another perspective.

araucaria
7th April 2015, 19:01
Guys, nothing that we can think of exists, only that which we cannot think of exists. If something is real it doesn't require a thought!!!!
We create the illusions so we can live, nothing wrong with it, it's beautiful.

I am not saying your theories are wrong, every theory is right depending on where one looks from, I am just offering yet another perspective.
Nothing to see here - it's full of thoughts.
But we saw it. A thought of non-existence, an illusion, a wrong theory, a right theory, is still an energy vibration.
And so is the thought that we can think things out of existence - or not, apparently.

InCiDeR
7th April 2015, 19:50
What if
the event horizon and singularities
and all other "dark" things
are more than meet the blind eye.

What if
all quantum states are recorded and entangled
to be borrowed
when the "time is right"
by someone who reaches for the jump of faith or quantum leap.

Will they jump in space or time
or just change the pattern, the "reality" surrounding them?

Does variation equals time
or is time just another variation?

----

...or maybe I just have vivid dreams....

Don't forget to count you ( or your 'jumper' ) to the quantum equation . We are , as a matter of fact, floating in overlapping 'quantum fields' of which we can't make great sense or even take a notice
simply because we do not generate enough energy to 'lock ' into those fields .




My Lady,

thank you for your precognition

of me

answering your eloquent phrases

before my conscious mind was aware


I guess I tried to catch it

when I referred to a jump of faith

but it was probably the wrong

reflection of me that draw the sound

so it became more of a unit verse than a universe.


This version of me are in cōnsentiō

with your statement

relation should not be ignored

not even the quantum ones


---


...and as your future self already am aware,

my past self have liked every dish you have served

on this "time" table


The interesting part is how the different "jumpers"

have used their relative understanding...


...but as you wrote, we are all fishes :bigfish:

Finefeather
7th April 2015, 20:45
If I travel faser than the speed of light,, time stops!! So ALL principles of time can only exist within speed of light realities,, ie,,, physical/material worlds... Time can only exist in that box.. that box, my friend,, is an illusion... Therefore, TIME is an illusion..

Not true :)
Because time as we know it is directly related to duration in the cycles of existence...so any duration/cycle can be related to 'human' time...light speed, which is 299 792 458 (meters / second) just takes a lot more zeros to write down it's wave length...400×10−9 m...something like .00000000004m ? not a mathematician but you know what I mean? :)

Light as we know it is not visible in the causal world and is considered slow because light is not the fastest thing in the physical/ material world...thought is...and we use it every day of our lives...in our world...but we cannot see it...so that does not mean it does not exist...because it sure exists in higher worlds.

So our 'time' is certainly not an illusion just because we cannot see something out of the range of light sight...things still have duration even if we cannot see them...and things do not stop when they reach the speed of light...least of all, time.

Einstein was wrong because he had no idea that higher worlds existed...and that relativity extends beyond the physical into the higher worlds.

The illusion is thinking that light is somehow a boundary to our existence in the physical world...it is not...

Blind people may not be able to see but they can certainly experience time.

Take care
Ray

PS...In the higher worlds creation by thought is virtually instantaneous and we experience by much much higher octaves of color...which scientists know nothing about because they cannot see it...so they maintain it does not exist.

Agape
7th April 2015, 20:56
Well, you know for example in ancient India , the people who dwelled on the 'Great Illusion' theory were known as Maya-vadins ,

it's definitely very attractive and tempting theory ..

from its own unique point of view you can equally reclaim Space to be part of this Great Illusion . There's no way to prove or disprove to you whether Space itself is real, yes you are 'experiencing it' but is your experience also 'real' ?

;)

The Mahamaya theory is of course, still , one essential human cosmological but also psycho-spiritual , philosophical concepts but it was since defeated and crossed over many times by more sublime understandings and refined logic systems/ philosophies
that include Buddhist schools of Prasangika Madhyamika - valid reasoning - about emptiness of inherent existence in any observable phenomenon , observer and observation itself ,
and 20th century great exponents of theory of relativity who worked out , essentially the same idea in still more refined manner ..


Thus, crossing the 'abyss of emptiness' we arrive at intersection , literally , we are walking at the razor edge of two merging time-space realities ..


but you may not understand that yet



:girl_wink:

Finefeather
7th April 2015, 21:00
Guys, nothing that we can think of exists, only that which we cannot think of exists. If something is real it doesn't require a thought!!!!
We create the illusions so we can live, nothing wrong with it, it's beautiful.

I am not saying your theories are wrong, every theory is right depending on where one looks from, I am just offering yet another perspective.
Sorry this makes very little common sense to me...I can think of my daughter or my car etc etc etc etc.... and all exist...
Of course it might be useful to be able to think things away hey :)
When you go to sleep tonight...do not think about it else you are going to wake up exhausted from lack of sleep :)

Everything that exists was created from thought...nothing can exist without it having been thought of... thought is creative energy.

Rich
8th April 2015, 05:36
Ray you really misunderstood my post.
I was talking about absolute reality not relative reality, you are talking about something completely different.
I was talking about the fact that we create our illusions with thought.
Araucaria, excellent post, really enjoyed that.

araucaria
8th April 2015, 08:01
Ray you really misunderstood my post.
I was talking about absolute reality not relative reality, you are talking about something completely different.
I was talking about the fact that we create our illusions with thought.
Araucaria, excellent post, really enjoyed that.

When you postulate two sorts of reality, you get two sorts of feedback.
In an essay called ‘Circular time’ (time-flies-like-a-banana time :)), Jorge Luis Borges ends with a discussion of Marcus Aurelius, whom he has already quoted:


Marcus Aurelius affirms the analogous, but not identical, nature of multifarious human destinies. He affirms that any time span – a century, a year, a single night, perhaps the ungraspable present – contains the entirety of history. In its extreme form, the conjecture is easily refuted: one taste is different from another, ten minutes of physical pain are not the same as ten minutes of algebra. Applied to lengthier periods, to the seventy years of age that the Book of Psalms allots us, the conjecture is plausible and tolerable. It becomes no more than an affirmation that the number of human perceptions, emotions, thoughts, and vicissitudes is limited, and that before dying we will exhaust them all. Marcus Aurelius repeats: “To see the things of the present moment is to see all that is now, all that has been since time began, and all that shall be unto the world’s end; for all things are of one kind and one form (Reflections VI, 37).
In times of ascendancy, the conjecture that man’s existence is a constant, unvarying quantity can sadden or irritate us; in times of decline (such as the present), it holds out the assurance that no ignominy, no calamity, no dictator, can impoverish us.

Borges returns to the subject in “A new refutation of time”, quoting “a fifth-century Buddhist treatise, the Visuddhimagga, or The Path to Purity”: “Strictly speaking, the life of a being lasts as long as an idea. Just as a rolling carriage wheel touches earth at only one point, so life lasts as a single idea.” But he closes as follows:

And yet, and yet… To deny temporal succession, to deny the self, to deny the astronomical universe, appear to be acts of desperation and are secret consolations. Our destiny (unlike the hell of Swedenborg and the hell of Tibetan mythology) is not terrifying because it is unreal; it is terrifying because it is irreversible and iron-bound. Time is the substance of which I am made. Time is a river that sweeps me along, but I am that river; it is a tiger that mangles me, but I am the tiger; it is a fire that consumes me, but I am the fire. The world, unfortunately, is real; I, unfortunately, am Borges.
“Freund, es ist auch genug. Im Fall du mehr willst lesen,
So geh und werde selbst die Schrift und selbst das Wesen.“
[Friend, this is enough. Should you wish to read more,/Go and yourself become the writing, yourself the essence.]
– Angelus Silesius Cherubinischer Wandersmann VI, 263 (1675)

petter
8th April 2015, 09:49
Deleted post

Sirius White
8th April 2015, 11:30
Kozyrev figured out what time was.

You know how they say, "time is money." Actually, TIME is ENERGY.

TIME FLOW, is LOCAL....space travel is TIME TRAVEL. Regeneration is akin to implosion, or inward movement, towards the zero-point, and this is, what is known as TIME REVERSAL- or PHASE CONJUGATION. Meanwhile, destruction, or explosiveness, is outward (standard entropic) movement (radiative), when something explodes, or creates a reaction it moves fast, at small and large scales.

Mainstream science, only understands explosion currently- thus, it only understands time moving forward, death, decay, and entropy. Tapping into radiative energy as a source

Hidden/Secret science understands Implosion, thus they understand about regeneration, time reversal, rejuvenation, and negative entropy. They tap into implosive, or zero point energy.

The MEASUREMENT of time is the Illusion. Time itself, dictates the pace of all life. Time-flow is local and different according to environment, gravity, light, electromagnetism in general as the Aether. Each local physical environment has a hierarchy of how time-flow is distributed or flowing at different ratio's. In otherwords, time is the orchestra master of life, and God is the one who writes the Music.

-----


Finally, time is not horizontal, or linear, but actually Vertical, or non-linear. IT is countless moments and permutations stacked upon one another infinitely. How Vertical Time is collapsed into Horizontal time is not much different than the double slit interpretation of an electron...Observation. Wave probability, to state we observe.....or wave-form, to particle form. Cloud state, to material state.

So we know of forward and backward time, but what about orthogonal or other angles? This is known, by the secret military, as "orthorotation." ? Essentially this means time also bleeds from here, to and also from other dimensions. Meaning, how we talked about the electron before, it changes its angle of rotation which we normally think to be "locked." Similarly, quantum technologies are now tapping into the "probability states" of the electron to maximize energy, for example in quantum dot television. Time is impacted by everything and time impacts everything.

Little do you all know the secrets of time are right there, in our observations, in what we don't see, and even in the most basic of physics theories.

Go back to Kozyrev...see how he thought of time, "absorption" and "release." The Sun is a "time generator." It dictates not just the revolution of planets and gravity, but TIME flow. What we see is only, the outer, entropic side, not the neg-entropic. Kozyrev coined it "Torsion."

Time......................

Rich
8th April 2015, 13:58
He affirms that any time span – a century, a year, a single night, perhaps the ungraspable present – contains the entirety of history.

Exactly, does that not show us that time does not exist? Except as a concept, an important concept that allows us to live, but a concept non the less.

Jake
8th April 2015, 15:20
The illusion is thinking that light is somehow a boundary to our existence in the physical world...it is not...
Ray


I can go with that.. :)

Serious White said that the illusion is thinking that we can measure time... I can go with that too..


I still maintain that time is a quality that only exist to an observer.. like a probability..

I am also seeing that the word ILLUSION may have different connotations and/or definitions...

Death is an illusion.. There is no death, only transition.. All concepts of physical death come fromwithin the illusion... Physical universes are the foamy biproduct on the edge of an ocean of other realities.. MOST of them,, non-physical... Attempting to define an illusion from within an illusion is flawed.. imho...

Anything that is not required for my existence will become illusory.And TIME is one of those things...

I am a musician. Omni, you may be able to appreciate this.. :)

When arranging or creating a song,, the Tempo is quite important to the overall feel and message of the creation.. The Tempo is the time signature.. if we change the Tempo, we do NOT change the song,, only the cadence, the 'feel'.. In this example TIME exists only in relationship with other qualities... AND CAN BE CHANGED.. Now, when I am lying in bed at night, going over a song,, or a part of the song,,, I can't help but notice that as I slip into deeper states,, it becomes difficult, even impossible to keep a steady tempo in my head. A beat does not cycle in regular intervals,, they are elongated or rushed and they are not regular or consistent. The further I engage the more subtle (non-physical) thought processes, the more apparant the illusion of ordered and structured time.. Why can I not keep a tempo i meditation or trance?

Ray said it, I think.. Thought is a faster than light process, and does not understand Time, though it adapts.. Clinging to a belief can and will limit your experience,, overall... Time is a belief stemming from the complete denial of our non physical makeup...

Creation and experience happen simultaneously. ? No time...

Clinging to the rocks and twigs at the bottom of a river will not set you free.. Let go!!! Soon you swimming whilst others cling to the rocks...

I see the river of time as being frozen,,, and each moment is now... Forever... Can anyone pont to the exact moment when NOW ends and the next moment begins?? The experience of passing moments is not required beyond the physical belief system territories.

Have you never woke from a dream or astral experience where you were sure that it had been a lifetime,, only to find that a couple hours has passed???? Somewher, in another physical universe,, I am napping on a beach... Two time streams at complete odds with one another.. When I wake up,, will I tell myself that it was all a dream????

Merrily Merrily Merrily Merrily
Jake

Rich
8th April 2015, 17:58
Time means something has happened or will happen.
So the very definition of time negates time itself.
Because every moment that has passed doesn't exist anymore.
Every moment that is yet to come, doesn't exist now.
Time is the concept that something has happened (or will) and since it Has already happened it is Not.

Omni
8th April 2015, 21:54
Time means something has happened or will happen.
So the very definition of time negates time itself.
Because every moment that has passed doesn't exist anymore.
Every moment that is yet to come, doesn't exist now.
Time is the concept that something has happened (or will) and since it Has already happened it is Not.
There is still the present moment moving forward. Which is kind of what time is. The past and future are ways to quantify time into an understanding. But time itself is the movement forward of the present moment.

Jake
8th April 2015, 23:16
Time means something has happened or will happen.
So the very definition of time negates time itself.
Because every moment that has passed doesn't exist anymore.
Every moment that is yet to come, doesn't exist now.
Time is the concept that something has happened (or will) and since it Has already happened it is Not.
There is still the present moment moving forward. Which is kind of what time is. The past and future are ways to quantify time into an understanding. But time itself is the movement forward of the present moment.

Nothing in physics alludes to any sort of difference between time moving forward or backwards... just fyi... the direction of time seems to be subjuctive too...


We can point to Entropy... the physical universes are bound to 'break apart'... The non physical universes tend to organize and cohere.. it takes less energy to destroy, than to create... This creates a causal direction of time... And an obvious conundrum.. (in physical locales..)

Outside of physicality, , it is all naked experience.... NO TIME...

prove me wrong!!!

Jake


Entropy....

Omni
8th April 2015, 23:21
Time means something has happened or will happen.
So the very definition of time negates time itself.
Because every moment that has passed doesn't exist anymore.
Every moment that is yet to come, doesn't exist now.
Time is the concept that something has happened (or will) and since it Has already happened it is Not.
There is still the present moment moving forward. Which is kind of what time is. The past and future are ways to quantify time into an understanding. But time itself is the movement forward of the present moment.

Nothing in physics alludes to any sort of difference between time moving forward or backwards... just fyi... the direction of time seems to be subjuctive too...


We can point to Entropy... the physical universes are bound to 'break apart'... The non physical universes tend to organize and cohere.. it takes less energy to destroy, than to create... This creates a causal direction of time... And an obvious conundrum.. (in physical locales..)

Outside of physicality, , it is all naked experience.... NO TIME...

prove me wrong!!!

Jake


Entropy....
Have you ever experienced a moment when you were not moving forward in the present moment through time? I think it's possible that such is an immutable natural law, the present moment going forward. I obviously am not aware of everything. But I have never observed a moment of time where it was going backwards. I'm sure that illusion is very possible with some sort of technological mind trick though...

Peacerebel
9th April 2015, 02:46
This is not an argument, just a thought..

If you think about an experience as a line, and that line could be observed from left to right and vice versa with a magnifying glass for example. That line could be a representation of anything, maybe a human life from cradle to grave. So if that line is existing as a complete structure at once, all the different experiences would be in the NOW. The act of looking at a certain point within the line, would not change the line itself cause it is already there, but when looking at the line at a certain point and moving from left to right, it would create the illusion of going from somewhere to some place else and because of the close-observing of the line it would create the experience of being in the present, and perceiving the other end of the line being the past, and future being the other. Thus the past and the future would not be facts, but merely a point of view.

So if a new manifestation in the universe would take place, something new would be born, it would have a beginning, or other words it would simply come to BE. It would be a line of its own and expand itself and change itself as its imagination would create the experience, it would still be the one line, it would still be in the NOW, and the idea of individual NEW manifestation of the single line would still be merely extension of the network of lines that is the creation itself(this has nothing to do with string theory BTW :P), and thus the network itself would be only in the NOW, and expanding itself, thus giving the idea that it is all changing and all expanding, but still the one moment. And only by observing the details and points within it, would we create time as terms of past-present-future. So the need for experience is not necessarily past and future, but CHANGE.. Change as the one moving part in the time term: NOW

And if you ought to add more dimensions and level to that, it would still be the one construct, one experience.. But as it learns about itself, explores itself, by focusing in a certain point of itself, it has created a gift, an illusion, an experience of not knowing, an experience of separate states of being, past-present-future.. ? what you think? :)

I'm not sure if this fights with the construct of time being non-existent, but I think it gives a question if not an answer to the past & future conversation..
I'm thinking that the question of how the universe came to be and where it manifested is a doozie, maybe the more pleasant question in relation to why, is simply: why not? :)

Innocent Warrior
9th April 2015, 11:38
As far as I understand, when people say, "time is an illusion", it is understood they mean what David Icke explains in the following video, skip to the 3:05 minute mark to watch the DVD analogy. There are also videos on relativity and how movement affects time, which in turn somehow changes what's in the moving observer's past (a bit over my head).

DIgyo_sIJeU

I agree that the phrase, "time is illusiory" would be more accurate but not that it's required to have a conscious experience. It always exists as an option but to experience it can be out of necessity or choice or not at all. The concept of time arises from experiencing a measured sequence of events. Consciousness, movement and measurement is required for time to be experienced but time is not required for one to have a conscious experience.

protoflex
10th April 2015, 06:15
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".

Reality is an illusion.

Omni
10th April 2015, 19:23
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".
I agree. Although time I think is better summed up by simply saying it exists, and is a real thing part of objective reality.


Reality is an illusion.
The definition of the word reality is what is real. So reality cannot be an illusion. I think the proper way to say it under that context would be: "there is no reality"...

Saying reality is an illusion is basically saying there is no reality. I disagree with that idea personally. There are truths to reality, and there are illusions IMO. To say the whole thing is an illusion I'm not sure allows for finding the finer details about illusions/truths within reality if there is no such thing as truth.

araucaria
10th April 2015, 20:04
I think I would rather say that illusions are real. At least my beautiful illusions are really real and a small minority have some nasty illusions that in my illusion are not really real – just illusions of illusions. Time is astride both categories; linear time is real handy in order to pick off the illusory illusions one by one; timelessness is best when I am tired of that game and feel ready to push aside the whole job lot of them.
:)

Jake
10th April 2015, 21:06
Ah! I missed something.. where did we agree as to the nature of reality.. Reality is subjective, and only in the eye of the beholder..

Time is like a particle... :) There are no such thing as particles.. It is all in our minds. Each aspect of an (alleged) atom ONLY exist in realationship to each other.. THE key ingredient that 'pulls all of the others into existence', is a point of Observation. Without that point of observation, the Atoms family never come together to create a (alleged) partical... Physicality is a complete illusion. It is happening in our minds.. Our minds make it 'real'.. See I am being careful not to confuse the words 'reality' and 'physicality'..

I posit that it is the same with time. Time is a probability that coheres to physicality,, and like the Atoms family,, does not exist outside the mind of an observer.. All that really means is that there are different 'sets of physics' that exist simultaneously, , and it is merely a matter of perspective (point of view/observation) that sets them apart.. I am okay with all of that..

I think if we are to attempt to understand what it means to navigate in multiple dimensions like this,, we are going to have to take a good hard look at the word REALITY,, and decide wether or not it is safe to assume that Reality is 'fixed'.. There are no straight lines, no fixed points,, space is curved and time is NOT consistent.

To answer an earlier question,, I have often found myself beyond my body,, rrrreeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyyy trying to focus on the 'passing of moments', but it is exhausting,, and it isn't required....

jake

Omni
10th April 2015, 21:54
Ah! I missed something.. where did we agree as to the nature of reality.. Reality is subjective, and only in the eye of the beholder..
I was just going by the definition of the word reality. Being that the word reality means that which is real. So by the definition of the word it cannot be an illusion.

To me reality is not subjective. There is an objective reality going on IMO. It's our job to align to the objective reality in discovering the truth. Reality is not the subjective part, it is one's perception of reality that is subjective IMHO.

protoflex
10th April 2015, 22:01
The definition of the word reality is what is real. So reality cannot be an illusion. I think the proper way to say it under that context would be: "there is no reality"...

Saying reality is an illusion is basically saying there is no reality. I disagree with that idea personally. There are truths to reality, and there are illusions IMO. To say the whole thing is an illusion I'm not sure allows for finding the finer details about illusions/truths within reality if there is no such thing as truth.

Of course the definition of 'reality' implies that the term describes something that is real, but i never said it wasn't 'real'. I just said it is an illusion, and the illusion is very 'real'. Just not in a sense of what we typically would like to believe from our own mind's perspective. That's a misconception in of itself to call something an illusion, and then try to say it isn't real. If it wasn't 'real', then we wouldn't see an illusion. The term 'illusion' is defined as... [a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.]

Nothing in that definition says it isn't 'real'.

I believe you're confusing yourself, and what our perceptive realities reveal to us in our present state.

InCiDeR
11th April 2015, 01:57
- How long is a thought?


...or the time inbetween thoughts?
Do all my thoughts regarding a matter occur simultaneously?
That would probably give me a nice little jacket with the arms wrapped around my back

But maybe they happen simultaneously

I have a conscious thought here
in this perceived reality
meanwhile
another version of me
have a different thought
at the same time

If you believe in infinity and multiverses
that means I have infinite numbers of thoughts
at the present moment
In a way, I already thought about everything


so relax


But if they do not happen simultaneously
there will be a time frame between two thoughts
So even if the perceived reality is an illusion
and therefore the concept of time in that reality
also would be an illusion
we still have to answer my first question.


- How long is a thought?


Maybe the perceived reality changes in entanglement with my thoughts
When the conscious thought moves in time
so does the perceived reality
meaning no time have passed per se....
or...
has it?

---

I guess it all comes down to definitions
the very core of the language
the essence of communication and understanding
and finally conscioussness, existence and to be... or not to be (pun intended)

Words.... what are they?

The definition of words I figured is not only about the definitions in itself.
Many times it also have a cultural value.
I mean USA probably means something different to a person living in USA
than a person living elsewhere.

And even the most simplest words are hard to explain ... really explain... to another person.

For example the word subway (or metro in some countries)


Full Definition of SUBWAY

: an underground way: as
a : a passage under a street (as for pedestrians, power cables, or water or gas mains)
b : a usually electric underground railway
c : underpass
— subway intransitive verb
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subway

Did you picture that definition before your eyes when I wrote subway the first time?

I didn't. I saw the train itself.

When I lived in the countryside. We had no subway.
Therefore the word subway had a different meaning or I had a different personal definition.
I just pictured the train in an underground tunnel in my mind.

But when I moved to a big city the definition changed
It grow and became so much more than a definition
that could be put into a simple sentence.

The personal definition became littered with memories, expectations, emotions, feelings.
The simple word subway lived by itself as an organic entity
Something I realised I could not fully explain to someone else.

Not even to the person sharing the same seat in the train
because that persons definition would probably be different...
a composition of his/hers whole history and relation to the word.

---

Time again
to go back in time
to the word time

How do we personally define the word time and its concept.
You will probably get a different answer depending if you ask a scientist, theolog, spiritualist or...
anyone else.

Time seems to be correlated and intertwined with
both the concept of reality and the concept of existence.

I wrote this about existence in another thread:


The limits of the language and use of words collapse the discussion of Solipsism into itself.

Philosophy explanation: The theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.

This explanation use the word self. By using the word self in the explanation, the explanation insinuates that something exists that is not self. Otherwise would not the word self exists.


Does "existence" exist?

In some statements, existence is implied without being mentioned. The statement "A bridge crosses the Thames at Hammersmith" cannot just be about a bridge, the Thames, and Hammersmith. It must be about "existence" as well.

On the other hand, the statement "A bridge crosses the Styx at Limbo" has the same form, but while in the first case we understand a real bridge in the real world made of stone or brick, what "existence" would mean in the second case is less clear.


Does exist exists?

Do I exist just because there "exists" a word in our language - Exist - that I/we agreed upon?

In so, if the word "Exist" exists there must be a common sense of "exist" in my/our body/mind/spirit complex otherwise the word "Exist" and the common sense of it have no meaning and therefore does not exist.

---

Pof... InCiDeR cease to exist in a logical quantum cloud loop that might or might not exist ;)

so.... would time exist without an existence of a consciousness?
Will a consciousness arise in any system within time
so time in itself can be discovered and defined?
or vice verse?


That is why I wrote:


Time is

where it ought to be

not so much

elsewhere

it in itself

hasn't got the time....

the time of illusion.


But the question remains



- How long is a thought?

protoflex
11th April 2015, 04:08
A thought is how ever long you want it to be. We define time based on each day. Humans use time to record moments, and schedule future events. In a sense, we created the future before it even got here, but our brains won't reveal the future to us until we let the day progress.

The reason time is a misconception is because reality is an illusion. Not vice versa. If perhaps reality was actually undeniably in a fixed form of existence with or without our perception that it exists at all to begin with, then why have scientists discovered that an atom or target of observation changes the more we look closer at it, and the more we go down the rabbit hole?

The universe is flux because it's a projection that we created. Atoms or other matter will undergo instant transformation the more we focus in on it. Experiments only see this in very strict observatory practices, but it has been found to be true. Most people refuse to believe this because they believe what they see regardless of whether or not they've looked further into it. Like the 'Big Bang Theory'. They believe this theory as fact. How can it be fact? It's a theory.

Omni
11th April 2015, 06:00
The definition of the word reality is what is real. So reality cannot be an illusion. I think the proper way to say it under that context would be: "there is no reality"...

Saying reality is an illusion is basically saying there is no reality. I disagree with that idea personally. There are truths to reality, and there are illusions IMO. To say the whole thing is an illusion I'm not sure allows for finding the finer details about illusions/truths within reality if there is no such thing as truth.

Of course the definition of 'reality' implies that the term describes something that is real, but i never said it wasn't 'real'. I just said it is an illusion, and the illusion is very 'real'. Just not in a sense of what we typically would like to believe from our own mind's perspective. That's a misconception in of itself to call something an illusion, and then try to say it isn't real. If it wasn't 'real', then we wouldn't see an illusion. The term 'illusion' is defined as... [a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.]

Nothing in that definition says it isn't 'real'.

I believe you're confusing yourself, and what our perceptive realities reveal to us in our present state.

It is also defined as something not real someone believes. It's semantics our differences I guess...

araucaria
11th April 2015, 08:21
Reality is just a label we use for we know not what. When you look at how language works, you find several similar phenomena in the outside world. Take the word/notion ‘bicycle’: it is like a complex molecule that can be disassembled into its factory components (wheel, frame, chain, saddle etc.), and beyond (rim/spokes/tyre…) to its atoms (iron, carbon), and beyond that you can continue until you have something you can send spinning in circles at CERN to smash it into even smaller pieces. When you get down to topspin and backspin, you find yourself back in the ‘real’ world playing a game of tennis :)

Or you can go in the opposite direction in a ‘big pharma’ (or ‘holistic healing’) perspective of increasingly large and complex molecules to heal the planet: vocabulary like city or civilization, galaxy, universe. Or you can see it in terms of nuclear fission/fusion, depending on whether you look at a breakaway civilization or peaceful accommodation of alien civilizations. Words like reality cover the entire spectrum, but the corresponding notion is usually restricted to the tiny portion perceptible to the majority somewhere in the middle.

If you take the word ‘reality’ itself, its definition is tautological: ‘the state of being real’. But the word ‘real’ is defined primarily in terms of things it is not: ‘not artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional; actual or authentic’ (New Penguin English Dictionary). In other words, the definition itself is precisely artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional; on its own terms it is unreal! :) Check the definition of ‘actual’: ‘existing in fact or reality’. A perfect CERN-like circularity.

Reality is simply a blank cheque, it is worth exactly the amount you put into it. But paper money is only a fictional substitute for real exchangeable commodities and by definition only gains ‘currency’ through being exchangeable. Hence reality implies consensus: it is whatever we agree it is going to be. This means in turn that the artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional dictionary definition is absolutely correct: that is indeed what we take the word to mean. Moreover, language itself is simply a blank cheque-book: words only gain currency through meaning whatever we agree they are going to mean.

This is where we are at. What is jabberwocky? What is time? Like anything else, it is whatever fictional substitute for a real phenomenon we agree the word designates. Like any other word, its reference is the elastic glue that pulls everything apart and holds everything together.

Finefeather
11th April 2015, 12:29
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".

Reality is an illusion.
If you mean 'misconception' to be..."a view or opinion that is incorrect because it is based on faulty thinking or understanding.".... then you need to qualify your "time is a misconception" statement... because it would be a misconception, on your part, to state that everyone is thinking incorrectly or has no understanding of time...so...time can only be a misconception when there is faulty thinking or lack of understanding. When there is knowledge and consciousness of time there is no misconception.

'Reality is an illusion' is actually also only a misconception when and if we have no idea what reality is. What an ignorant person...and I mean no disrespect to anyone...calls reality may very well be an illusion...but a 'knower' of 'real' reality is not fooled by the illusion which some people call reality.

So time is only a misconception to some...and...reality is only an illusion if you are ignorant of what reality really is :)


Take care
Ray

ZooLife
13th April 2015, 03:52
- How long is a thought?

https://secure.static.tumblr.com/d2fac1ac92b572ce46ade4271b9e4cf9/d5dhb58/gyynbglvd/tumblr_static_tumblr_static__640.jpg

Johnny
13th April 2015, 07:38
I have never heard of this guy before this morning, I think what he has to say, has relevance to this thread:

6NYEthP0rh4

The first 2 minutes are very silent :)

Johnny

protoflex
14th April 2015, 05:14
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".

Reality is an illusion.
If you mean 'misconception' to be..."a view or opinion that is incorrect because it is based on faulty thinking or understanding.".... then you need to qualify your "time is a misconception" statement... because it would be a misconception, on your part, to state that everyone is thinking incorrectly or has no understanding of time...so...time can only be a misconception when there is faulty thinking or lack of understanding. When there is knowledge and consciousness of time there is no misconception.

'Reality is an illusion' is actually also only a misconception when and if we have no idea what reality is. What an ignorant person...and I mean no disrespect to anyone...calls reality may very well be an illusion...but a 'knower' of 'real' reality is not fooled by the illusion which some people call reality.

So time is only a misconception to some...and...reality is only an illusion if you are ignorant of what reality really is :)


Take care
Ray

Well, the things you are saying may be true to one person, but false for the other/others. The reason is because our minds are creating this projection/illusion. Other ppl can influence each other's reality without even realizing it. It's like i tell ppl sometimes... It's not always about being wrong or right. So if you think i'm ignorant, that may be just your opinion. Especially since that observation was based on a false reality, and not solely your own personal beliefs. Because with all due respect, just because you think the first person to state that a particular definition is to be labeled the term 'reality', doesn't mean it is a correct interpretation. As others in this thread have precisely pointed out, all language is based on loosely selected interpretations of our thoughts and perceptions.

Which is why I try my best to 'loosely' explain my ideas, because no one thought is the same, but that doesn't mean we can't figure out what each other's ideas represent. It just means we have to think about them from a wide perspective. We can't think of terms as 'non-negotiable' interpretations that have no flexibility. Like the bible says, you are only wise if you were once ignorant (or if you admit you are ignorant?). I can't quote scripture unfortunately, but i do recall numerous msg's the bible conveys.

-update-
If you expect me to 'qualify' my statement' "time is a misconception"... Then the best way to put it is:

Time was and is an attempt to regulate reality. Apparently, our bodies only respond to our consciousness as needed based on our perception of our reality. So, if a particular society or faction (for lack of better term) created a false perception, and forced us to respond to it accordingly, then chances are we very well could have been guided into this matrix for their own purposes or entertainment. Without us even knowing it. However there are glitches in the system that tell us this (reality) isn't quite what we thought it was (or is).

As you say, you think i owe you an explanation based on my statement about 'reality' being an illusion. Well... all's i can say is:

Our reality is fed to us via light. Our eyes insert information into our brain that can be interpreted in more than one way. Our dreams prove this, because light also travels through electricity, and the sensory motors in our body run off a form of electricity. Sound being the primary source of reality, which ironically, isn't governed by light. So the light you think you see from the sun, may very well be an illusion fed to you because our brains are limited on how it can interpret vibrations for us, and our brains are essentially windows to another type of realm. Yet for some unknown reason, our creator (or creators) felt it was important we be designed this way in order to carry out our destiny here on Earth.

The reason why i have "(or creators)" there is because I believe there's a pretty good chance we aren't in the state our sole creator intended, but rather we've fallen prey to a deity of some sort that formed us into something almost entirely different than that what we were meant to be.

David Wilcock does a fascinating job at explaining this concept. I'll call it a concept because i understand we're still learning about this matrix, but we are learning. That is the important thing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3zzibOtVFU

Agape
14th April 2015, 19:22
http://www.astrojyoti.com/purushasuktam.htm

http://www.greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/vedas-purusha_suktam.php

Purusha Suktam - in sanskrit with meaning - from Rig Veda 10.90

- from Rig Veda (10.90)

पुरुष सुक्तम्
Purusha Suktam


सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुषः सहस्राक्षः सहस्रपात् ।
स भूमिं विश्वतो वृत्वात्यतिष्ठद्दशाङुलम् ॥१॥
Sahasra-Shiirssaa Purussah Sahasra-Akssah Sahasra-Paat |
Sa Bhuumim Vishvato Vrtva-Atya[i]-Tisstthad-Dasha-Angulam ||1||

Meaning:
1.1: The Purusha (The Universal Being) has Thousand Heads, Thousand Eyes and Thousand Feet (Thousand signifies innumerable which points to the omnipresence of the Universal Being),
1.2: He envelops the World from all sides (i.e. He pervades each part of the Creation), and extends beyond in the Ten Directions ( represented by Ten Fingers ),


पुरुष एवेदं सर्वं यद्भूतं यच्च भव्यम् ।
उतामृतत्वस्येशानो यदन्नेनातिरोहति ॥२॥
Purussa Evedam Sarvam Yad-Bhuutam Yacca Bhavyam |
Uta-Amrtatvasye[a-I]shaano Yad-Annena-Ati-Rohati ||2||

Meaning:
2.1: The Purusha is indeed All this (Creation) in essence; That which existed in the Past, and that which will exist in the Future,
2.2: Everything (i.e the whole Creation) is woven by the Immortal essence of the Great Lord (Purusha); by becoming Food of which (i.e. by getting consumed in Whose Immortal essence through surrender) one transcends the gross world (and becomes Immortal).


एतावानस्य महिमातो ज्यायाँश्च पूरुषः ।
पादोऽस्य विश्वा भूतानि त्रिपादस्यामृतं दिवि ॥३॥
Etaavaanasya Mahima-Ato Jyaayaash-Ca Puurussah |
Paado-Asya Vishvaa Bhuutaani Tri-Paad-Asya-Amrtam Divi ||3||

Meaning:
3.1: The Purusha is Greater than all the Greatness (which can be expressed by words),
3.2: His One Foot has become all these (visible) Worlds, and His Three Feet rests in the Immortal World of the Transcendence.




Time is like a prism .. it reflect itself in four different directions . Here , you're immediately aware of its most elusive apparition ,
the other 3 parts you're also subconsciously aware of are deeply rooted in Eternity ..


This is your greatest fear and greatest hope ... your much broader sense of Time and Reality ..

we can only learn to return the image back to its beholder ..


see no evil..
...hear no evil..
......speak no evil



:bearhug::bearhug::bearhug:

protoflex
15th April 2015, 01:42
Sounds a lot like 'Jacob's Ladder'.

Christianity seems to convey the connection with the heavens in a different way, but i see these two religions or forms of beliefs trying to convey the same msg in different languages and doing so from different cultures of course.

Have any of you heard of http://lotus.org/ ?

It is meant to remind us that religion was not meant to divide, but rather unite.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZH-NF4XIRc

Agape
15th April 2015, 13:08
Yes ''Truth is One , seers and poets describe it differently''.

Some of the Vedic hymns are thousands years old , and were preceded by Egyptians and so forth .. human civilisation has a long history ,
what is 'poetic language' to you now was once a spoken language and 'rishis' , the seers , and forefathers of current civilisation era used it in intriguing manner to contemplate nature of Mind , Matter , Energy , Time and countless other concepts we think of today in scientific manner .
They treasured long memory of several civilisation epochs . Yet , their world was bound to change and it has casually , transformed ..

in either case - whether it's maths or philosophy , the way to arrive at next stage to your current understanding of everything is contemplation ..

some contemplations last thousands of years , in fact , some are accomplished within a second .

Each of those 'units' , 'views' , represent 'facet of time' .. of lasting - or apparition of such lasting of certain, perceptual phenomenon .

Now our overall experience is composed of many such huge - and almost endless - and small facets of various shapes and sizes ,

like giant kaleidoscope changing its landscape , also like 'sand clock'.

:clock::flower:


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/Aikatwo/dscn1734.jpg (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Aikatwo/media/dscn1734.jpg.html)


Is that real ?

:bigsmile:

Agape
15th April 2015, 13:22
This is a thread about Time not about David Wilcock , what's your problem buddy ? :bearhug::bigsmile:

Muzz
15th April 2015, 13:45
I have just deleted a negative and off topic post from a member who is now unsubscribed. Hopefully this interesting thread can now continue in peace. :)

Agape
15th April 2015, 20:14
I'm going slightly off topic here but will return it back safely ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)


PRISM is a clandestine[1] surveillance program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications of foreign nationals from at least nine major US internet companies.[2][3][4] It was launched in 2007.

PRISM is a government code name for a data-collection effort known officially by the SIGAD US-984XN.[5][6] The PRISM program collects stored Internet communications based on demands made to Internet companies such as Google Inc. under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 to turn over any data that match court-approved search terms.[7] The NSA can use these PRISM requests to target communications that were encrypted when they traveled across the Internet backbone, to focus on stored data that telecommunication filtering systems discarded earlier,[8][9] and to get data that is easier to handle, among other things.[10]

PRISM began in 2007 in the wake of the passage of the Protect America Act under the Bush Administration.[11][12] The program is operated under the supervision of the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court, or FISC) pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).[13] Its existence was leaked six years later by NSA contractor Edward Snowden, who warned that the extent of mass data collection was far greater than the public knew and included what he characterized as "dangerous" and "criminal" activities.[14] The disclosures were published by The Guardian and The Washington Post on June 6, 2013. Subsequent documents have demonstrated a financial arrangement between NSA's Special Source Operations division (SSO) and PRISM partners in the millions of dollars.[



Uhh. So how does that relate to our topic ... it does not .


Thank you everyone for your moderate moderation efforts



:behindsofa:


Who is behind the sofa ... your hidden destiny ...

Meggings
16th April 2015, 00:05
Time is malleable. It is as much an "illusion" as bodies are, as material substance is that we use in experiencing this particular creation.

When I was a tiny child, perhaps two years old, my favourite joyful game was to sit with eyes closed and zoom out of my body to the very ends of the universe, where I would "turn inside out" and zoom even faster back into my body. I did this over and over again for the sheer joy of it. To make such a journey to the edge of the universe and back in a few seconds certainly indicates how malleable time is.

I have recently been out of body watching a panoply of universes turn and wheel before my gaze. Considering the time it takes for a spiral galaxy to make but one revolution, and I was observing them turning as my consciousness ensouled a galaxy (I assume, for I was as large as a galaxy myself), I did marvel within my personality self aware of this in my physical body at how perception of time changes according to the level one is experiencing.

I have travelled countless timelines and witnessed countless scenes in other times and places. I have seen past and future and alternate timelines. From personal experience I posit that time is illusionary in the sense that bodies are, that houses are, that earth is. But it changes as the viewer-participant changes its position. Time is as real as our bodies are, and in that sense, it can be agreed that "time is not an illusion".