Was Osho Murdered? Was Osho a Targeted Individual?

[Omni]

I did not know Osho had died. I have not extensively looked into his material but he did seem like someone with uncommon wisdom. Quite possible he was a target. I do not think Osho was a psy op. Many people who are "Gurus" very well may be psy ops IMHO, but from what I've seen of Osho I saw uncommon wisdom and someone helping humanity.

Upon finding Osho was dead, I researched how he died. I found this from a website linked below:

From 4 October 1987, Osho is seriously ill and nearly dies. On 6 November resuming discourses, Osho discloses that his doctors believe he was poisoned while in the custody of the United States government.
Source: http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography10/10-16-poisoned.txt


Death
Osho breathed his last in the year 1990. It was stated that heart failure was the cause of his death. His physicians hypothesized that he had been poisoned by radiation and thallium in the United States and that he must have slept on his right side on a deliberately irradiated mattress, as his symptoms were concentrated on the right side of his body. However, his followers had no evidence to support the hypothesis.
Source: http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/osho-rajneesh-23.php#Fq97qE8ZSjmsTj2j.99

It saddened me he was dead, and he died when I was 6 years old in 1990. There are so few beacons of Truth and Emissary's of True Spirituality in the world in terms of famous people who many follow the works of. Maybe Osho was terminated? I would not be surprised...

I would love to hear anything else people have to say about this. Especially if anyone knows more about this.

I searched for this and couldn't find it posted. Just a bunch of Osho quotes in the enlightenment thread. If there is an existing thread I'm sorry to create work for mods, plz merge and this will bump it :)

[ulli]

Osho's battle was with Ronald Reagan, who even made a personal call to the President of Uruguay,
who was willing to give him asylum, to not let him into the country.
His organization was made up of some pretty unwholesome people in the end who even tried to take over the local municipality.
Had they behaved in a more civilized and less outrageous manner Osho would not have appeared on the radar of the MSM.
He became a threat to the elite, and thus was quickly removed.
Empowering the masses is the fastest way to join the ranks of martyrs.

[Selkie]

Rajneesh was a psychopath, and a murderer. If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.


The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Rajneesh revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles.[
(emphasis added)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

p.s. Was he murdered? Well, murderers often get murdered, themselves.

addition You know, people keep wondering how the psychopaths keep getting over on us, and this is a perfect example. People simply refuse to take on board the fact that Rajneesh was a psychopath. They let their beliefs about the man blind them to what he really was.

[Selkie]

...Empowering the masses is the fastest way to join the ranks of martyrs.

Empowering the masses??? What did Rajneesh do to "empower the masses"? He took over a town by abusing democratic processes. That sounds like dis-empowerment of the masses, to me.

[Omni]

Rajneesh was a psychopath, and a murderer. If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.


The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Rajneesh revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles.[
(emphasis added)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

p.s. Was he murdered? Well, murderers often get murdered, themselves.

addition You know, people keep wondering how the psychopaths keep getting over on us, and this is a perfect example. People simply refuse to take on board the fact that Rajneesh was a psychopath. They let their beliefs about the man blind them to what he really was.

I had barely looked into his info or life. I do not have any bias or belief he was a great guy. Only initial interpretations of his information. I don't see an agenda behind his info, but I haven't looked at it all.

You do realize any great source of wisdom will likely be character assassinated and/or influenced via remote influencing technologies? They either make people an asset, or suppress/character assassinate them in many cases. In many events the character assassination most effective is mind control and by someone's own actions.

I think your reply is a bit brash. Maybe Osho was an unethical person, but.... The thread has 3 people post in it, you me and ulli. And nobody has displayed what you say... Most people do not not know history you mention I would think.


If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.
I do not take life lessons from Osho. But I have liked some of the things he has said. Even Hitler has some sage-like quotes or L. Ron Hubbard. I can learn from any being if I am observant enough. Some people you can learn from very easily...

[Omni]

Rajneesh was a psychopath, and a murderer. If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.


The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Rajneesh revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles.[
(emphasis added)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

p.s. Was he murdered? Well, murderers often get murdered, themselves.

addition You know, people keep wondering how the psychopaths keep getting over on us, and this is a perfect example. People simply refuse to take on board the fact that Rajneesh was a psychopath. They let their beliefs about the man blind them to what he really was.

After reading the wikpedia, Osho was charged with illegal immigration. Says nothing about him murdering people. Just that his organization did some bad things, which Osho himself exposed. Doesn't sound like a deceiver or murderer to me...

That is like saying I am a murderer because I am part of the United States. Unless you have a better link I am not convinced. Sorry.

[ulli]

O

...Empowering the masses is the fastest way to join the ranks of martyrs.

Empowering the masses??? What did Rajneesh do to "empower the masses"? He took over a town by abusing democratic processes. That sounds like dis-empowerment of the masses, to me.

I read some of his stuff and felt my confidence in myself return, after a personal crisis.
Later I talked with others who also were positively influenced.
I'm not a fan of his, and have never been a member of any cult.

I ranked Gurdjieff highly in my youth, and when I found out that Osho endorsed Gurdjieff I started reading a little.
He may well have become a psychopath after creating such a huge following around him.
It seems that this often comes with the territory, when one can no longer be challenged.
I never heard that he was a murderer.

[Selkie]

Rajneesh was a psychopath, and a murderer. If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.


The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Rajneesh revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles.[
(emphasis added)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

p.s. Was he murdered? Well, murderers often get murdered, themselves.

addition You know, people keep wondering how the psychopaths keep getting over on us, and this is a perfect example. People simply refuse to take on board the fact that Rajneesh was a psychopath. They let their beliefs about the man blind them to what he really was.

After reading the wikpedia, Osho was charged with illegal immigration. Says nothing about him murdering people. Just that his organization did some bad things, which Osho himself exposed. Doesn't sound like a deceiver or murderer to me...

That is like saying I am a murderer because I am part of the United States. Unless you have a better link I am not convinced. Sorry.

Like I said, if peeps want to take life lessons from a psychopath, they are perfectly free to do so.

[Selkie]

O

...Empowering the masses is the fastest way to join the ranks of martyrs.

Empowering the masses??? What did Rajneesh do to "empower the masses"? He took over a town by abusing democratic processes. That sounds like dis-empowerment of the masses, to me.

I read some of his stuff and felt my confidence in myself return, after a personal crisis.
Later I talked with others who also were positively influenced.
I'm not a fan of his, and have never been a member of any cult.

I ranked Gurdjieff highly in my youth, and when I found out that Osho endorsed Gurdjieff I started reading a little.
He may well have become a psychopath after creating such a huge following around him.
It seems that this often comes with the territory, when one can no longer be challenged.
I never heard that he was a murderer.

You are correct. I made a mistake. No one died in the bioterror attack on the town of Antelope, Oregon, so he was not a murderer, he was merely a poisoner.


Victims ranged in age from an infant, born two days after his mother's infection and initially given a five-percent chance of survival,[12] to an 87-year-old.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack

[greybeard]

Its never about the man but the "teaching"
Unfortunately people will put the man on a pedestal.
The responsible Sage is clear that the teacher and the taught are the same--there is no difference.
One when asked if he was "God" (a much over used word) said "Yes and so are you, the only difference is that I know I am and you don't yet"
Osho's teaching was correct as far as I can tell.
As said in an earlier post, once a large group of followers happen, the ego can get in there.
Followers are a big liability as far as I can see.

Chris

[Selkie]

Rajneesh was a psychopath, and a murderer. If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.


The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Rajneesh revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles.[
(emphasis added)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

p.s. Was he murdered? Well, murderers often get murdered, themselves.

addition You know, people keep wondering how the psychopaths keep getting over on us, and this is a perfect example. People simply refuse to take on board the fact that Rajneesh was a psychopath. They let their beliefs about the man blind them to what he really was.

I had barely looked into his info or life. I do not have any bias or belief he was a great guy. Only initial interpretations of his information. I don't see an agenda behind his info, but I haven't looked at it all.

You do realize any great source of wisdom will likely be character assassinated and/or influenced via remote influencing technologies? They either make people an asset, or suppress/character assassinate them in many cases. In many events the character assassination most effective is mind control and by someone's own actions.

I think your reply is a bit brash. Maybe Osho was an unethical person, but.... The thread has 3 people post in it, you me and ulli. And nobody has displayed what you say... Most people do not not know history you mention I would think.


If peeps want to take life-lessons from a psychopath/murderer, they are certainly free to do so.
I do not take life lessons from Osho. But I have liked some of the things he has said. Even Hitler has some sage-like quotes or L. Ron Hubbard. I can learn from any being if I am observant enough. Some people you can learn from very easily...

Was he targeted? I doubt it very much. He was a psychopathic cult leader who used nitrous oxide to get high. Nitrous oxide can have some very nasty side-effects

http://www.side-effects-site.com/nitrous-oxide-side-effects.html

that could make someone look as if they were targeted. People like Rajneesh always self-destruct. No targeting needed.

[Carmody]

I knew someone who was fairly close to that entire flow and time of that situation. I was given the impression that his group of (surrounding) people was highly infiltrated and manipulated.

This is standard modus operandi for international organizations such as the apparatus connected to the US government.

[ulli]

I just found this interesting account, by his dentist.
They really had that guy on a platform, classic cult leader style.
Never looked into it before, so this is news to me.
http://www.osho.nl/New-Osho-NL/BodyBooks/Devageet%20Osho%20a%20Buddha.htm

[Selkie]

...This is standard modus operandi for international organizations such as the apparatus connected to the US government.

Yeah...they were probably there to learn his methods, so that they could refine their own.

[Carmody]

...This is standard modus operandi for international organizations such as the apparatus connected to the US government.

Yeah...they were probably there to learn his methods, so that they could refine their own.

No, no, and no.

They brought their own. And that was what was involved. If it was the US government, or European elements, is unknown. But it was not osho. He directly asked for a full and penetrating US investigation, and called those involved, a 'bunch of fascists'.

From the wiki entry:


The book Emerging Infectious Diseases: Trends and Issues cites the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack, along with the Aum Shinrikyo group's attempts to use anthrax and other agents, as exceptions to the belief "that only foreign-state supported groups have the resources to execute a credible bioterrorism event".[58] According to Deadly Cultures: Biological Weapons Since 1945, these are the only two confirmed uses of biological weapons for terrorist purposes to harm humans.[5] The incident was the single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history.[3][59][60] In the chapter titled: "Influencing An Election: America's First Modern Bioterrorist Attack" in his 2006 book Terrorism on American Soil: A Concise History of Plots and Perpetrators from the Famous to the Forgotten, author Joseph T. McCann concludes: "In every respect, the salmonella poisoning carried out by the cult members was a major bioterrorist attack that fortunately failed to achieve its ultimate goal and resulted in no fatalities."[19]

excepting the fact that wiki, as a controlled and infiltrated entity that itself has been caught selling itself to the highest bidder...wiki does not mention big pharma and Monsanto and their ilk.. who are responsible for bio terrorism against billions.

[Selkie]

...This is standard modus operandi for international organizations such as the apparatus connected to the US government.

Yeah...they were probably there to learn his methods, so that they could refine their own.

No, no, and no.

They brought their own. And that was what was involved. If it was the US government, or European elements, is unknown. But it was not osho. He directly asked for a full and penetrating US investigation, and called those involved, a 'bunch of fascists'.

If you believe that, then you don't know how cult leaders operate. Up until everything goes south, they are in charge of everything. After the **** hits the fan, then they play the victim. Psychopathic behavior 101.

[Carmody]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

[greybeard]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

There has to be an enemy out there Carmody.
In who's interest is it to rubbish Osho and therefore the teaching which seem quite valid to me?
Who does not want mankind to evolve spiritually?
Any teacher that points to spiritual Truth will be attacked and ridiculed.
Never mind the teacher though, study the teaching and see if it rings true for one self.
Is it uplifting? That's a good clue.
Does it point to non-duality?

Chris

[Selkie]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

I am passionate about this because I know how cult leaders operate from the inside, and I know the damage they cause in people's lives. Cults destroy families. They ruin people's finances and their lives. They take people captive and mind-control them. They abuse them sexually. And here is Rajneesh, who did all those thing and whose organization tried to capture a whole town by abusing democratic processes and by poisoning hundreds of people to keep them from voting so that their own people would win.

[Selkie]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

There has to be an enemy out there Carmody.
In who's interest is it to rubbish Osho and therefore the teaching which seem quite valid to me?
Who does not want mankind to evolve spiritually?
Any teacher that points to spiritual Truth will be attacked and ridiculed.
Never mind the teacher though, study the teaching and see if it rings true for one self.
Is it uplifting? That's a good clue.
Does it point to non-duality?

Chris

You might want to talk to people whose lives were ruined by Rajneesh and his cult before you decide how "uplifting" his real message...as opposed to his con-job message...really was.

[Selkie]

...This is standard modus operandi for international organizations such as the apparatus connected to the US government.

Yeah...they were probably there to learn his methods, so that they could refine their own.

No, no, and no.

They brought their own. And that was what was involved. If it was the US government, or European elements, is unknown. But it was not osho. He directly asked for a full and penetrating US investigation, and called those involved, a 'bunch of fascists'.

From the wiki entry:


The book Emerging Infectious Diseases: Trends and Issues cites the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack, along with the Aum Shinrikyo group's attempts to use anthrax and other agents, as exceptions to the belief "that only foreign-state supported groups have the resources to execute a credible bioterrorism event".[58] According to Deadly Cultures: Biological Weapons Since 1945, these are the only two confirmed uses of biological weapons for terrorist purposes to harm humans.[5] The incident was the single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history.[3][59][60] In the chapter titled: "Influencing An Election: America's First Modern Bioterrorist Attack" in his 2006 book Terrorism on American Soil: A Concise History of Plots and Perpetrators from the Famous to the Forgotten, author Joseph T. McCann concludes: "In every respect, the salmonella poisoning carried out by the cult members was a major bioterrorist attack that fortunately failed to achieve its ultimate goal and resulted in no fatalities."[19]

excepting the fact that wiki, as a controlled and infiltrated entity that itself has been caught selling itself to the highest bidder...wiki does not mention big pharma and Monsanto and their ilk.. who are responsible for bio terrorism against billions.

That does not mean that what they write about Rajneesh is not true. His attempt to subvert democratic processes is a matter of record, as is the bioterror attack. The fact that Wikipedia has been caught selling to the highest bidder does not change those facts.

addition Here is another source for the same information, part 1 of 5.

http://www.oregonlive.com/rajneesh/index.ssf/2011/04/part_one_it_was_worse_than_we.html

They were a really nasty bunch, and I don't think it can be blamed on Sheela or targeting or our government. The nastiness comes from the character of Rajneesh, himself, because that is how cults work, through the mechanism of projective identification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification


Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, influences or coerces that other person to carry out that precise projection

(my emphasis)

[Desire]

Silkie, Were you involved in Rajneesh,s cult, sounds like you personally knew him?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I do agree no cult is a good cult

[Selkie]

Its never about the man but the "teaching"...
The responsible Sage is clear that the teacher and the taught are the same--there is no difference...

So if a guru is (for example) preaching celibacy but shagging the women in secret (as many of them do), what are we to make of that? Are we to follow his teaching, or his actual example?


...Followers are a big liability as far as I can see.

Not if the goal of the guru is to be rich, with ashrams and 93 Rolls Royces, they're not.

[Selkie]

Silkie, Were you involved in Rajneesh,s cult, sounds like you personally knew him?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I do agree no cult is a good cult

No, Desire...I was not in Rajneesh's cult. I was in John Lash's cult. But they all work the same way. They all lie. They all manipulate. They all love-bomb and they all mind-control their followers.

And yes, no cult is a good cult.

p.s. And if it sounds like I knew him personally, it is because after my time with JLL, I know how psychopaths operate.

[Carmody]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

I am passionate about this because I know how cult leaders operate from the inside, and I know the damage they cause in people's lives. Cults destroy families. They ruin people's finances and their lives. They take people captive and mind-control them. They abuse them sexually. And here is Rajneesh, who did all those thing and whose organization tried to capture a whole town by abusing democratic processes and by poisoning hundreds of people to keep them from voting so that their own people would win.

here's a note on passion:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83133-The-Corey-Goode-affair-various-updates-from-David-Wilcock&p=975626&viewfull=1#post975626

There is no stone to carry, there is no sword to brandish. You will be more more effective for yourself and for others, without projection.

Warning; the life itself is of projection, it is folded in on itself. The whole thing is a mirrored historical projection with a self animated reactive colored filter in between. The window, the life, the reactive colored filter, are one and the same. The only saving grace is that this can be recognized, as it is part of a rising self awareness to do such a thing.

It is at that point (finding it in the self) the process of removing the influence of the body filter can begin. Since the window and filter/drive are seemingly one and the same, it takes some time to, shall we say, ease the influence of the one.

[greybeard]

All I am saying is.
Dont confuse the the teaching with the teacher.
A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

[Selkie]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

I am passionate about this because I know how cult leaders operate from the inside, and I know the damage they cause in people's lives. Cults destroy families. They ruin people's finances and their lives. They take people captive and mind-control them. They abuse them sexually. And here is Rajneesh, who did all those thing and whose organization tried to capture a whole town by abusing democratic processes and by poisoning hundreds of people to keep them from voting so that their own people would win.

here's a note on passion:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83133-The-Corey-Goode-affair-various-updates-from-David-Wilcock&p=975626&viewfull=1#post975626

Have you read Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain by Antonio Damasio? You might want to give it a look.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes'_Error

http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X

[ulli]

Certainly more controversial than appears by looking at the teachings.
Flawed teacher, for sure.

Found this just now:
About this man Rajneesh/Osho there was a lot of laughter, loquacity, occasional eloquence, some real insight, and an immensely potent and hypnotic energy. But sadly, there was also a lot of lunacy and immense dysfunction. He was/is remarkably interesting as a sensual ecstatic, intuitive mystic, unlicensed psychotherapist of en masse primal scream-cry-laugh "dynamic meditation" therapy, rebellious social-political-religious provocateur, successful self-promoter, cosmic joker, and relentless iconoclast who simultaneously lured his emotionally-dependent followers into making a big icon out of himself. Though numerous Rajneeshees will claim, using vague or dubious criteria, that their guru was "fully enlightened" (Rajneesh certainly claimed this for himself) and that he enlightened them, too, with his counsels and his "special energy," the bulk evidence indicates that Rajneesh/Osho left a mixed or even tragic legacy.

This legacy involved very misleading or imbalanced teachings as well as quite helpful wisdom, some really bad advice along with genuinely good counsels, a slew of lies about himself and his movement, dozens of glaring errors in his discussions of world religions and other subjects, personal role-modeling of voracious materialist greed and conniving ambition for fame and power, narcissistic ego-inflation along with authoritarian power-plays and lack of empathy, intellectual dishonesty and petty oneupsmanship tactics, a hypocritical inability to live what he preached (e.g., telling everyone to "go beyond the mind" while talking for tens of thousands of hours from a heavily opinionated and error-prone mind; preaching that the enlightened one lives in tension-free ease viewing life as a play while he himself frequently used laughing gas/nitrous oxide and valium to the point of incoherence, said some of his closest people), a penchant by Rajneesh and his appointed leaders for deceitful spinning or rationalizing nearly every time they were confronted on anything of importance, heavy solicitations and numerous scams by his appointed leaders to fleece his followers and their families of as much of their money and possessions as possible (especially from 1980 onward), crushing work-loads for exploited disciples (routinely 15-18 hours, 7 days a week, at the Oregon ranch in USA from 1981-5), a commune at Poona, India and then one in Oregon often buzzing with ecstatic excitement and groovy sensuality but also debauched by wanton sex (and countless venereal diseases), a several-year period of violence at Poona and branch-communes worldwide (resulting in bruises, blood, even broken bones and rapes) until it was banned by the Rajneesh Foundation in 1979, and diverse criminal activity from the mid-1970s to mid-1980s in both India and Oregon. The crimes, as recounted by former disciples, included drug running, swindling and prostitution by many ashramites to pay for their lengthy stays in India or funnel money to the commune; extensive immigration fraud and tax fraud conducted by Rajneesh and Foundation leaders in India and then the USA; currency and gold smuggling when they moved to the USA in 1981; a slew of frivolous lawsuits launched to harass and intimidate local Oregon citizens from 1982-1985; failing to pay many of their loans in the USA; arson (one incident in India to defraud an insurance company, another arson attack in USA to destroy county records), racketeering, burglary, assault, conspiracy and illegal electronic surveillance (the largest such wiretapping-bugging operation ever uncovered); criminal bioterrorism sickenings of some 750 Oregonians and attempted assassinations of select outsiders and insiders in 1984-1985 by some of Rajneesh's top circle of people, led by his authorized lieutenant, Ma Sheela; and intermittent poisonings of scores if not hundreds of Rajneesh sannyasins from the late 1970s until Sheela and her "Dr. Mengele" Ma Puja left in 1985. In all, just assessing the illegal activity in the USA from 1981-1985 (not to mention earlier crimes in India), 32 Rajneeshees were charged with crimes in Oregon; 23 pleaded guilty; 2 were convicted at trial; 4 still remain fugitives; 8 served prison time.

[Ted]

All I am saying is.
Dont confuse the the teaching with the teacher.
A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

It's not a difficult thing to pretend to teach a legitimate curriculum with an ulterior motive. The Rolls Royces are a big red flag.

[Carmody]

I give up. I've got better things to do today than deal with someone else's inner circular recalcitrance.

[Selkie]

All I am saying is.
Dont confuse the the teaching with the teacher.
A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

I understand what you are trying to say, Chris, but what it really means is that the teachings of the "sick chicken" are only useful if they are taken out of context. If a guru is (for example) preaching celibacy, but shagging the women in secret, then it means that his preaching is a con, meant to lure the vulnerable and unwary and take advantage of them.

[Selkie]

Certainly more controversial than appears by looking at the teachings.
Flawed teacher, for sure.

Found this just now:
About this man Rajneesh/Osho there was a lot of laughter, loquacity, occasional eloquence, some real insight, and an immensely potent and hypnotic energy. But sadly, there was also a lot of lunacy and immense dysfunction. He was/is remarkably interesting as a sensual ecstatic, intuitive mystic, unlicensed psychotherapist of en masse primal scream-cry-laugh "dynamic meditation" therapy, rebellious social-political-religious provocateur, successful self-promoter, cosmic joker, and relentless iconoclast who simultaneously lured his emotionally-dependent followers into making a big icon out of himself. Though numerous Rajneeshees will claim, using vague or dubious criteria, that their guru was "fully enlightened" (Rajneesh certainly claimed this for himself) and that he enlightened them, too, with his counsels and his "special energy," the bulk evidence indicates that Rajneesh/Osho left a mixed or even tragic legacy.

This legacy involved very misleading or imbalanced teachings as well as quite helpful wisdom, some really bad advice along with genuinely good counsels, a slew of lies about himself and his movement, dozens of glaring errors in his discussions of world religions and other subjects, personal role-modeling of voracious materialist greed and conniving ambition for fame and power, narcissistic ego-inflation along with authoritarian power-plays and lack of empathy, intellectual dishonesty and petty oneupsmanship tactics, a hypocritical inability to live what he preached (e.g., telling everyone to "go beyond the mind" while talking for tens of thousands of hours from a heavily opinionated and error-prone mind; preaching that the enlightened one lives in tension-free ease viewing life as a play while he himself frequently used laughing gas/nitrous oxide and valium to the point of incoherence, said some of his closest people), a penchant by Rajneesh and his appointed leaders for deceitful spinning or rationalizing nearly every time they were confronted on anything of importance, heavy solicitations and numerous scams by his appointed leaders to fleece his followers and their families of as much of their money and possessions as possible (especially from 1980 onward), crushing work-loads for exploited disciples (routinely 15-18 hours, 7 days a week, at the Oregon ranch in USA from 1981-5), a commune at Poona, India and then one in Oregon often buzzing with ecstatic excitement and groovy sensuality but also debauched by wanton sex (and countless venereal diseases), a several-year period of violence at Poona and branch-communes worldwide (resulting in bruises, blood, even broken bones and rapes) until it was banned by the Rajneesh Foundation in 1979, and diverse criminal activity from the mid-1970s to mid-1980s in both India and Oregon. The crimes, as recounted by former disciples, included drug running, swindling and prostitution by many ashramites to pay for their lengthy stays in India or funnel money to the commune; extensive immigration fraud and tax fraud conducted by Rajneesh and Foundation leaders in India and then the USA; currency and gold smuggling when they moved to the USA in 1981; a slew of frivolous lawsuits launched to harass and intimidate local Oregon citizens from 1982-1985; failing to pay many of their loans in the USA; arson (one incident in India to defraud an insurance company, another arson attack in USA to destroy county records), racketeering, burglary, assault, conspiracy and illegal electronic surveillance (the largest such wiretapping-bugging operation ever uncovered); criminal bioterrorism sickenings of some 750 Oregonians and attempted assassinations of select outsiders and insiders in 1984-1985 by some of Rajneesh's top circle of people, led by his authorized lieutenant, Ma Sheela; and intermittent poisonings of scores if not hundreds of Rajneesh sannyasins from the late 1970s until Sheela and her "Dr. Mengele" Ma Puja left in 1985. In all, just assessing the illegal activity in the USA from 1981-1985 (not to mention earlier crimes in India), 32 Rajneeshees were charged with crimes in Oregon; 23 pleaded guilty; 2 were convicted at trial; 4 still remain fugitives; 8 served prison time.

Yes, that's right. The "teachings" are a con, and a cover. The essence of cults is betrayal.

And in keeping with the OP, which asked if Rajneesh (Osho) was murdered, I have to say I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was. As to the question of whether he was targeted; I don't think so, and I have given my reasons why above, in other posts on this thread.

[Selkie]

...It's not a difficult thing to pretend to teach a legitimate curriculum with an ulterior motive. The Rolls Royces are a big red flag.

Yes. People go into cults because of the beautiful outer messages, only to find that what is preached is not what is practiced at all. Rajneesh is just one example.

[Cristian]

You know Silkie,

Gay people always say they can spot each other out. There is something they see in each other.

I have realized that beauty and truth is something I can spot . In that regard Osho was the real deal. You cannot fake that- you have to understand. You cannot fake God.

You are using your brain- you are not using your heart. Osho was everything you say from a mind's point of view.

Osho was also beautiful from the heart's point of view. You cannot argue about this. You can only know this...

[Selkie]

You know Silkie,

Gay people always say they can spot each other out. There is something they see in each other.

I have realized that beauty and truth is something I can spot . In that regard Osho was the real deal. You cannot fake that- you have to understand. You cannot fake God.

You are using your brain- you are not using your heart. Osho was everything you say from a mind's point of view.

Osho was also beautiful from the heart's point of view. You cannot argue about this. You can only know this...

You are wrong about that, Cristian. Psychopaths fake it all the time. That is how they lure their victims; it is their stock in trade, and Rajneesh was a psychopath, as what his cult was really like shows.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83389-Was-Osho-Murdered-Was-Osho-a-Targeted-Individual&p=975647&viewfull=1#post975647


About this man Rajneesh/Osho there was a lot of laughter, loquacity, occasional eloquence, some real insight, and an immensely potent and hypnotic energy. But sadly, there was also a lot of lunacy and immense dysfunction. He was/is remarkably interesting as a sensual ecstatic, intuitive mystic, unlicensed psychotherapist of en masse primal scream-cry-laugh "dynamic meditation" therapy, rebellious social-political-religious provocateur, successful self-promoter, cosmic joker, and relentless iconoclast who simultaneously lured his emotionally-dependent followers into making a big icon out of himself. Though numerous Rajneeshees will claim, using vague or dubious criteria, that their guru was "fully enlightened" (Rajneesh certainly claimed this for himself) and that he enlightened them, too, with his counsels and his "special energy," the bulk evidence indicates that Rajneesh/Osho left a mixed or even tragic legacy.

This legacy involved very misleading or imbalanced teachings as well as quite helpful wisdom, some really bad advice along with genuinely good counsels, a slew of lies about himself and his movement, dozens of glaring errors in his discussions of world religions and other subjects, personal role-modeling of voracious materialist greed and conniving ambition for fame and power, narcissistic ego-inflation along with authoritarian power-plays and lack of empathy, intellectual dishonesty and petty oneupsmanship tactics, a hypocritical inability to live what he preached (e.g., telling everyone to "go beyond the mind" while talking for tens of thousands of hours from a heavily opinionated and error-prone mind; preaching that the enlightened one lives in tension-free ease viewing life as a play while he himself frequently used laughing gas/nitrous oxide and valium to the point of incoherence, said some of his closest people), a penchant by Rajneesh and his appointed leaders for deceitful spinning or rationalizing nearly every time they were confronted on anything of importance, heavy solicitations and numerous scams by his appointed leaders to fleece his followers and their families of as much of their money and possessions as possible (especially from 1980 onward), crushing work-loads for exploited disciples (routinely 15-18 hours, 7 days a week, at the Oregon ranch in USA from 1981-5), a commune at Poona, India and then one in Oregon often buzzing with ecstatic excitement and groovy sensuality but also debauched by wanton sex (and countless venereal diseases), a several-year period of violence at Poona and branch-communes worldwide (resulting in bruises, blood, even broken bones and rapes) until it was banned by the Rajneesh Foundation in 1979, and diverse criminal activity from the mid-1970s to mid-1980s in both India and Oregon. The crimes, as recounted by former disciples, included drug running, swindling and prostitution by many ashramites to pay for their lengthy stays in India or funnel money to the commune; extensive immigration fraud and tax fraud conducted by Rajneesh and Foundation leaders in India and then the USA; currency and gold smuggling when they moved to the USA in 1981; a slew of frivolous lawsuits launched to harass and intimidate local Oregon citizens from 1982-1985; failing to pay many of their loans in the USA; arson (one incident in India to defraud an insurance company, another arson attack in USA to destroy county records), racketeering, burglary, assault, conspiracy and illegal electronic surveillance (the largest such wiretapping-bugging operation ever uncovered); criminal bioterrorism sickenings of some 750 Oregonians and attempted assassinations of select outsiders and insiders in 1984-1985 by some of Rajneesh's top circle of people, led by his authorized lieutenant, Ma Sheela; and intermittent poisonings of scores if not hundreds of Rajneesh sannyasins from the late 1970s until Sheela and her "Dr. Mengele" Ma Puja left in 1985. In all, just assessing the illegal activity in the USA from 1981-1985 (not to mention earlier crimes in India), 32 Rajneeshees were charged with crimes in Oregon; 23 pleaded guilty; 2 were convicted at trial; 4 still remain fugitives; 8 served prison time.


See also

http://www.lovefraud.com/

http://psychopathsandlove.com/stages-of-the-psychopathic-relationship/

[Cristian]

Silkie,

I see you have been hurt.

I see you have been deceived.

I see the black panther that wont take any crap any more.

What is behind the black panther ...I wonder.

Something amazing and beautiful I think.

Wonder when are you going to drop the black panther attitude... When are you planning on letting go?

[Ted]

If a guy is heading an organization, and that organization is buying a bunch of useless luxury cars, taking over a town and poisoning people, he is ultimately responsible. If he couldn't handle the organization, he should have removed himself and started over. The fact that he didn't, and only started pointing fingers after the fact is highly suspicious.
Words lie, actions don't.

[Caliban]

I know that some people feel very warmly towards Osho -- obviously that guy knew some profound things about spirituality. In book after book he lays out all the "secrets" and mysteries of Eastern wisdom. Whether he actually knew this or got it from books himself, I can't say.

What I do know is that he allowed a vile and nefarious community to spring up around him that committed crimes and acted contrarily to what we think of as spiritual growth. Was he infiltrated by elements of intelligence services? Maybe, I don't know, and never heard that before. If he was, why didn't he back out of this "community," distance himself as far as possible? Osho to me is another example of the guru gone wildly wrong. Look at Da Free John (?) or name your own.

To me, it's best to stay away from gurus, especially if they become famous. Listen, take a few things and go within to see if it gels with your inner guide.

[Selkie]

Silkie,

I see you have been hurt.

I see you have been deceived.

I see the black panther that wont take any crap any more.

What is behind the black panther ...I wonder.

Something amazing and beautiful I think.

Wonder when are you going to drop the black panther attitude... When are you planning on letting go?

I know you mean well :)

[greybeard]

Silkie enlightened teachers do fall out of that state--some times called crash landing.
That does not invalidate at least the early teachings.
I say that devotees can be a liability as some want something from the guru and have an expectation that this can be met by giving expensive gifts or sleeping with them.
The temptations are many--Jesus was tempted by the Devil but did not give in.
Hope this gives context to my earlier posts.
Best wishes
Chris

[Selkie]

...I say that devotees can be a liability as some want something from the guru and have an expectation...

Well, of course they have expectations. Gurus gain followers and sucker people by building expectations. The problem is not that people have expectations, but that gurus exploit those expectations by promising way more than they can ever deliver. And followers are stripped of money, possessions and relationships in the bargain.


...The temptations are many--Jesus was tempted by the Devil but did not give in.

Maybe not, but Rajneesh sure did!, lol.

Thanks, Chris :)

[Citizen No2]

Truth.

We are all looking for truth, and yet what is truth?

Truth about Osho? Only Osho knows his truth.......... The rest is merely hearsay at best. Unless you are personally involved in an event then recollection and distortion shall be your kif and kin. How many times on this site do poster's state their distrust of MSM and then use the very same source's to bolster their point of view, their truth?

I'll tell you about truth, the conclusion I have arrived at regarding truth.

Does being aware that Government's and Corporation's use under-hand and deadly tactics to further some dark agenda put me at an advantage? I don't think so.

Does being aware of a possible Alien agenda, Millennia old, of hiding the Truth of who we really are put me at an advantage? I don't think so.

Does being aware of myself, of my Truth, of conduct and interaction put me at an advantage? I think so, and thus, my Truth is the only truth that matters, to me.


In the word's of the late, great, Freddie Mercury:

" Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters, nothing really matters
To Me.........................."




P.S. the view stated above is mine and mine alone and is in no way meant to credit or discredit any other persons point of view.

[Flash]

Cristian, you are right, Silkie could drop the anger if she/he wishes, and would be much more apt to help others after dropping the anger - to do this help is often needed however.

Cristian, you are, in my views, however wrong in one thing: psychopaths are extraordinary imitators. They will imitate love. And very good dark magic people will know how to utilise énergies in order to make you believe they love and are full of heart. They are extremely hard to discern for what they truly are. But behavior speaks - although it takes tons of tiime to be obvious. Do not be misled.

We were laughing together a group I meditate with. We often go in a place for long week ends that have recently been sold to an Osho followers group. Our own learnings are basically practically opposite to Osho's teachings. Yet, we kept renting there since we have done it for years and the place is appropriate. So they got the very meditative and not flesh oriented group right in their mist lollllllllllllll:p


Silkie,

I see you have been hurt.

I see you have been deceived.

I see the black panther that wont take any crap any more.

What is behind the black panther ...I wonder.

Something amazing and beautiful I think.

Wonder when are you going to drop the black panther attitude... When are you planning on letting go?

[greybeard]

Truth.

We are all looking for truth, and yet what is truth?

Truth about Osho? Only Osho knows his truth.......... The rest is merely hearsay at best. Unless you are personally involved in an event then recollection and distortion shall be your kif and kin. How many times on this site do poster's state their distrust of MSM and then use the very same source's to bolster their point of view, their truth?

I'll tell you about truth, the conclusion I have arrived at regarding truth.

Does being aware that Government's and Corporation's use under-hand and deadly tactics to further some dark agenda put me at an advantage? I don't think so.

Does being aware of a possible Alien agenda, Millennia old, of hiding the Truth of who we really are put me at an advantage? I don't think so.

Does being aware of myself, of my Truth, of conduct and interaction put me at an advantage? I think so, and thus, my Truth is the only truth that matters, to me.


In the word's of the late, great, Freddie Mercury:

" Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters, nothing really matters
To Me.........................."




P.S. the view stated above is mine and mine alone and is in no way meant to credit or discredit any other persons point of view.


Well said Citizen No 2.

"Nothing is real, nothing to go on about" John Lennon

You can have knowledge about everything under the sun but if you don't know your True Self what value is it to you?
"What does it profit you if you gain the world but loose your soul" Christ is reputed to have said
And "Search ye first the Kingdom of God and all things will be added unto you"

Basically the Kingdom is within--there in lies the Father--which is the Self as in Self realisation.

That is worth all the gold or knowledge of this world.
The body and this Earth is your temporary home.
Self is eternal --that's what you are.

Osho pointed strongly to this.

Chris

[Camilo]

The only thing certain about him is that he didn't walk his talk. He preached about spiritual values and yet he owned a float of 94 Rolls Royces, and created a cult of deluded blind servants.

[Selkie]

The only thing certain about him is that he didn't walk his talk. He preached about spiritual values and yet he owned a float of 94 Rolls Royces, and created a cult of deluded blind servants.

Yes...blind servants who burgled and poisoned and bilked and defrauded and otherwise abused many, many people. Proof enough of the value of Rajneesh's teachings, I would say.

[Selkie]

..."Nothing is real, nothing to go on about" John Lennon

That's like saying this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

And yet, it is true that nothing is real. It is real to flesh and to humans, but unreal to spirit and the eternal, I suppose.

[greybeard]

There is no denying that terrible horrible things happen
While It may be an illusion to spirit, the way to have a better future for all here and now, is spiritual evolution.
"A rising tide lifts all boats"

You can not fight evil with the same energy that creates all this turmoil.
Most conflict is caused by well meaning people going to war to fight a perceived wrong---and it may be real enough to them.
The warring is at all levels, family disputes you name it, has been going on since time began.
This is due to ignorance of the fact that "God" is within all.

That looking through the others eyes is what is looking through yours.

Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see."

We can not opt out of our personal responsibility to make our own life right and at the same time blame circumstances seemingly created by others.
By changing our mind set, our intentions, our circumstances will change for the better.
We have to be consistent in our attitude,thoughts and actions and then the external changes.

Namaste means "I greet the God within you"

Its very hard to see that all are one.
To live and let live.
When some one hurts me, if I keep carry it, then I'm the one hurting me.
Small stuff I don't have to buy into.
Big stuff more difficult.
AA has some good sayings "Let go let God"

No one escapes the consequences of their actions--I don't have to be concerned about this.

This is a nice story and may be true.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=975336&viewfull=1#post975336

Ps when I use the word God I really mean the Divine that is my True Self.
I really let go to what I truly am--there is nothing external.
I am in the body and body is within me.

Its actually simple but easily confused--in reality "I am the totality, all of it."

I believe this to be so.

Chris

[Cristian]

Osho,
What is existence? Is it something like what people call God?

Existence is that which is, and God is that which is not. Existence is a reality, God is a fiction. Existence is available only to meditators, people of silence; God is a consolation for sick minds, sick psychologies.

Existence is not your production – God is. That's why there is only one existence, but thousands of gods. Each according to his needs, each according to his suffering, each according to his expectations, creates a god or accepts an old belief about God.

God is a great consolation, but it is not a cure. Existence is not a consolation. To be in tune with it is to be healthy and whole. All the religions of the world have been teaching God; I teach you existence. I teach you to be in tune with that which surrounds you, which is within you and without you. Once you are in tune with it, there is no death for you, no misery, no tension, no worry, but a tremendous peace surrounds you, a contentment which you have never even dreamt of.

God is for those who cannot grow in consciousness, who are retarded as far as consciousness is concerned. It is a kind of toy; retarded people need it. And the moment I say it is a toy, then it is up to you how you want to make it – looking like a monkey or looking like an elephant. It is just up to you whether to give him four hands or one thousand hands. It is your creation. Strangely enough, man believes God created everything.

The truth is that God himself is a creation of man's imagination.

God is the greatest lie you can ever find, because on that lie thousands of other lies depend. Churches, religious organizations go on multiplying lies upon lies, just to protect one lie.

You have to understand the psychology of lying. The first thing about lying is that you need a good memory because you have to remember. You lie to someone about something, to somebody else about something else; you have to remember what you have said to one and what you have said to the other.

Truth needs no remembrance. Truth is always there, just the same. You don't have to cram it in your memory. Memory gives you a bondage, a prison; it clings around you, covers you so much, slowly, slowly that you disappear completely. Truth is uncovering yourself from all lies. And there is a sudden revelation that you are part of the immense truth I am calling existence.

You don't need any churches, you don't need any temples, you don't need any mosques; you need only a prayerful heart, a loving heart, a grateful heart. That is your real temple. That will transform your whole life. That will help you to discover not only yourself, but the very depths of this immense existence.

We are almost like the waves of the ocean – just on the surface, and the ocean may be miles deep. The Pacific Ocean is five miles deep. But a small wave on the top will never know the depth – her own depth, because she is not separate from the ocean. She will cling to her small entity, be afraid about death, be afraid of losing herself in the vastness, the oceanic infinity. But the truth is, the death of the wave is not a death, but the beginning of an eternal life.


http://www.osho.com/read/osho/vision/god-versus-existence

[Jhonie]

OMG! I had no idea about OSHO. Cults are every where. My family is a cult for sure.

[Selkie]

Osho,
...You have to understand the psychology of lying.

http://www.osho.com/read/osho/vision/god-versus-existence

Well, he (Osho) ought to know, being a pathological liar, himself.

[Selkie]

Osho,
...You don't need any churches, you don't need any temples, you don't need any mosques...
http://www.osho.com/read/osho/vision/god-versus-existence

No, but apparently you do need 93 Rolls Royces.

[Michel Leclerc]

I personally know a few people who have benefited greatly from Sri Rajneesh‘s or Osho’s teachings. I have had the opportunity to glance through a few of his books in the 70s/80s and which rung a number of bells which joined a whole symphonic orchestra only somewhat later in my life.

The people I am referring to were either, like myself, Subut initiates, or were influenced by him via their own exploration of the Tantric path.

Friends and acquaintances of both disciplines were highly appreciative of his works. In Subut the idea went around that Rajneesh/Osho’s thoughts and spiritual exercises had a value equal to Subut's and/but that we did not need to walk his path as they were parallel. Which I think was wise – and precisely because of this wisdom and the distance taken, the judgment of those who read him is of importance to me.

In the 90s I approached Tantra myself, and so came closer to the teachings of Rajneesh/Osho. From that vantage point also (although, again, it does not seem to be the same as Rajneesh/Osho's way exactly) I could appreciate what I knew about him as valid.

It is my experience that in all personal development schools one will find both transmitters of the message (trainers, facilitators, coaches, “gurus”) and receivers of the message (disciples, attendees) who may be either temporarily of even for some time not at the level of the message conveyed or heard. The strange thing is that this does not affect the message as such. If it has intrinsic strength, it will survive human defects easily. In Christianity a sinner can baptise.

When I heard the dismal news about the group around Rajneesh/Osho later, I remember, I myself and the friends I have referred to smelled many rats. At least we suspended our belief in that news.

When somebody left behind such a vast corpus of written material, I suggest one of the first things we could do is start reading.

[Desire]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

There has to be an enemy out there Carmody.
In who's interest is it to rubbish Osho and therefore the teaching which seem quite valid to me?
Who does not want mankind to evolve spiritually?
Any teacher that points to spiritual Truth will be attacked and ridiculed.
Never mind the teacher though, study the teaching and see if it rings true for one self.
Is it uplifting? That's a good clue.
Does it point to non-duality?

Chris

You might want to talk to people whose lives were ruined by Rajneesh and his cult before you decide how "uplifting" his real message...as opposed to his con-job message...really was.

SIlkie,Don"t let them get to you they don't get the devistation of what they are saying to you.They are part of the follower pack.They mean well but don't help.

[Flash]

Desire, you subscribed here on the 14 of october 14. I suggest that you do quite a lot more or reading of the post on the forum of old posters before being so judgemental. What you are saying is plainly ridiculous.

Second, I do not think that Silkie is THAT fragile. She/he is quite adamant about Osho's groups and uptight about it, but usually she/he handle situation in a much colder fashion. Having been personnally hurts does fuzz the mind and heart. I do understand this.

Silkie, the real discussion about OSHO's philosophy AND behavior has been shut because of your drastic answers to posters. Carmody has left the discussion and he could have brought a lot, Ulli is keeping away right now, and probably more are keepinf far.

It would really help to have a not so hot discussion and therefore find the real truth instead of being pushed someting down the throat. The funny part is that people may even come to your point after discussing it, but won't if it is being pushed. I know you understand this. Would be great if we could really discussed without feeling like being attacked when in fact you probably want to protect us and have us see your truth as you have seen it.

I personnally come from background where the Osho type of teaching are not that much appreciated, although the light part of being maybe.







I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

There has to be an enemy out there Carmody.
In who's interest is it to rubbish Osho and therefore the teaching which seem quite valid to me?
Who does not want mankind to evolve spiritually?
Any teacher that points to spiritual Truth will be attacked and ridiculed.
Never mind the teacher though, study the teaching and see if it rings true for one self.
Is it uplifting? That's a good clue.
Does it point to non-duality?

Chris

You might want to talk to people whose lives were ruined by Rajneesh and his cult before you decide how "uplifting" his real message...as opposed to his con-job message...really was.

SIlkie,Don"t let them get to you they don't get the devistation of what they are saying to you.They are part of the follower pack.They mean well but don't help.

[loveoflife]

Osho liked to inject humour into his discourses by telling jokes.

6D7rWLzloOI

He also liked to wind up those who attacked him. Considering some of the posts on this thread he succeeded. :p

[enfoldedblue]

Personally I noticed that I often found profound truths that I discovered within reflected in the words of Osho. Because of this, one day several years ago I decided to do a little research on him. I remember that after reading a slew of information on him my take was that he had accessed the layers of deep truth and beauty within ... and this helped propel him into the public realm... However though he had reached states of truth and beauty he lacked integrity and thus was easily compromised by fame and power. I actually remember that there was some point when he began interacting with an American audience that I wondered if 'someone' had got to him. Possibly he was manipulated by certain powers .... or maybe it was a simple as an untamed ego getting out of control. Either way he clearly got very lost along the way...

[Bubu]

There are many cults but only so few received so much negative publicity. Which prompted me to ask again. "Who owns the media" Who owns the "rolls Royce company" its almost unbelievable that a small time cult leader could own 94. One example of created Identity is Einstein religion is another. I Agree with Carmody about character assassination. I was planning to look deeply into Osho after reading this thread. Thanks Christian for bringing it here. His teachings rings true to me. Although as pointed above the teacher is not his teaching. The teaching once delivered cannot be taken back it stays what it is lest the teacher can be accused of lying. But the teacher can changed along the way, particularly with temptations and manipulations ,created probably.
His teachings rings true and that's what matters not the teacher for its not about him its about his teachings reminding me of my belief in regards.
Nothing could be worst to this group up there that man will ceased to look up to authority/ higher figures; gods bosses:idea:

[Caliban]

However though he had reached states of truth and beauty he lacked integrity and thus was easily compromised by fame and power. I actually remember that there was some point when he began interacting with an American audience that I wondered if 'someone' had got to him. Possibly he was manipulated by certain powers .... or maybe it was a simple as an untamed ego getting out of control. Either way he clearly got very lost along the way...


Yes, he certainly did get lost. What developed around him was truly nuts. And the fascinating thing is, it happens with so many of these gurus. Is it that they're not truly enlightened? Or is their "enlightenment" incomplete, did they "spiritually bypass" their psychological problems? Or is it the lack of integrity as you say, enfoldedblue?

Some seem to have escaped this. Nisargadatta, for one, though he never came to America. He stayed in Bombay talking with seekers. He did become famous but never succumbed to the madness. Nor did Papaji, though he eventually become famous as well, also staying mostly in India.

I think Osho and others like him still had karma to burn, or however you want to phrase it. They didn't totally transcend. Like most of us here. Except we don't have 94 Rolls Royces ;)

[Delight]

The only thing certain about him is that he didn't walk his talk. He preached about spiritual values and yet he owned a float of 94 Rolls Royces, and created a cult of deluded blind servants.

Yes...blind servants who burgled and poisoned and bilked and defrauded and otherwise abused many, many people. Proof enough of the value of Rajneesh's teachings, I would say.

Isn't it wonderful that we can learn from seeing other's terrible experiences to stay away from faux Guru's self interested clutches? IMO anyway, when we are willing to be beguiled, we are not willing at that moment to observe what may be clear to others. I have read that we can within a minute or two of interacting with anyone discern what is actually intended BUT we often will not listen to our small still voice of inner reason.

I recommend this article (http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html) highly as it says more about the issue of the notion many have of enlightenment than just about Osho (by his various names)

Christopher Calder knew the man personally.


Hugh Milne's book records a day when Rajneesh admitted, while under the influence of nitrous oxide, that there is no such thing as enlightenment. I cannot confirm this event through other contacts, but I assume Rajneesh was simply stating what U.G. Krishnamurti has said all along, that the storybook fiction we accept of a perfect enlightenment, full of infallible wisdom, is a big lie. A powerful and expansive state of cosmic consciousness does exist in humans who achieve it, but the way this condition is described by the religious establishment is an egocentric fiction, contrived by spiritual leaders to control the masses for their own personal gain.

Enlightenment is not something you own; it is something you channel.

Whatever term you use for the phenomenon of enlightenment, it is scientifically accurate to say that no human being has any power of their own. Even the chemical energy of our metabolism is borrowed from the sun, which beams light to the Earth, which is then converted by plants through photosynthesis into the food we eat. You may get your bread from the supermarket, but the caloric energy it contains originated from thermonuclear reactions deep in the center of a nearby star. Our physical bodies run on star power. Any "spiritual" energy we channel also comes from far beyond, from all sides of the universe, from the complete TES (Time-Energy-Space), from beyond the oceans of galaxies, and onto infinity. No human being owns the Atman, and no one can speak for the TES.

[loveoflife]

What i find interesting about this thread is how people are able to judge anothers spirituality/enlightenment without knowing all the facts, especially in regard to ego which surely must be a projection of ones own.

Then how others can asses how a spiritual person should act, by what criteria, and where did that preconceived standard come from?

Osho is an iconoclast and a rebel, who took on all the worlds religions and politicians. As someone mentions earlier in the thread to form an opinion based on media reports of a controversial figure like him is surely is to be misinformed.

In the media he was known as the sex guru, out the many books of his published, (of which he wrote none they were all transcripts of his discouses), only one had sex in the title, one of his earlier books. 'From Sex to Superconsciousness' was enough for the label to stick and it was a book about transcending sex.

[loveoflife]

Osho books available here for free dl. http://www.oshoworld.com/e-books/ and here http://www.oshorajneesh.com/osho-books-free-download.htm

I do recommend this series of books that are compilations from his books on certain topics. http://www.osho.be/New-Osho-NL/EnglBooks/TOP-Insights.htm



“I am not here to convince you about anything. I am not here to give you a dogma, a creed to live by. I am here to take all creeds away from you because only then will life happen to you. I am not giving you anything to live by, I am simply taking all props away from you, all crutches." Osho

[greybeard]

The late Dr David Hawkins who was "enlightened said that the path of enlightenment is not the path to Sainthood, they are quite different.
As said by loveoflife we are judgemental and expect certain behaviour from the enlightened.
They are free of concepts, belief systems and all conditioning.
The persona remains and if you were the son of a bitch before enlightenment then that persona can continue.

"Enlightenment" like "God" are just words--in a way there is no such thing as enlightenment as this is your true and normal state after all the illusion/ego has dropped away. Ultimately, according to what I have read--there never was a separate person--its restricted consciousness manifest as an individual person.

The teaching of Osho is much respected by many.
With the enlightened there is neither attraction nor aversion--- If Osho was given material things then he would not be bothered if they were given or taken away.

Yogananda was given coat and gloves by his devotees--- The coat was stolen and he seemed up set--the devotees promised to get him another coat he said no I am bothered that they left me with the responsibility of the gloves.

I dont think it possible to judge the actions of the enlightened as we come from a conditioned mind set---they are in mindless/thoughtless awareness.
They witness what happens--including what the persona does.

Not saying im right this is my understanding of the moment

I would advise serious spiritual seekers to read Osho and if you dont like what you read, then you will find what you seek within. where it is anyway.


Chris

[Caliban]

I dont think it possible to judge the actions of the enlightened as we come from a conditioned mind set---they are in mindless/thoughtless awareness.
They witness what happens--including what the persona does
Chris


See, I know what you mean, coming from a non-dual point of view. But to give this advice to someone fairly new to spiritual exploration could lead him/her down some very treacherous paths. We still have to live in the world. We should judge their actions, if only to save our own skins.

You could say that we learn from such experiences and encounters with "crazy wisdom." Maybe. But we could also learn a lot from trusting our own discernment that tells us - "keep away."

[Ted]

I hear you Chris, and agree with you up to a point. I am not condemning Osho either, I'm just looking at the end product. The truly enlightened, in my experience, are sensitive to the needs and feelings of all their fellow beings. They have empathy and compassion, born from their identification with the Holy Spirit. Consequently, their actions reflect this.
In Osho's case, either his followers went rogue, or he approved of their behavior. He could certainly play the part, but just how much was self realized? That's why those of us who have been deceived in the past, tend to watch more than listen. A persons behavior is usually the best indication of what's really inside.

Cheers,

Ted

[Selkie]

I did not get up this morning to get into this fever directed ****.

Cool your jets.

There has to be an enemy out there Carmody.
In who's interest is it to rubbish Osho and therefore the teaching which seem quite valid to me?
Who does not want mankind to evolve spiritually?
Any teacher that points to spiritual Truth will be attacked and ridiculed.
Never mind the teacher though, study the teaching and see if it rings true for one self.
Is it uplifting? That's a good clue.
Does it point to non-duality?

Chris

You might want to talk to people whose lives were ruined by Rajneesh and his cult before you decide how "uplifting" his real message...as opposed to his con-job message...really was.

SIlkie,Don"t let them get to you they don't get the devistation of what they are saying to you.They are part of the follower pack.They mean well but don't help.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83389-Was-Osho-Murdered-Was-Osho-a-Targeted-Individual&p=975647&viewfull=1#post975647


About this man Rajneesh/Osho there was a lot of laughter, loquacity, occasional eloquence, some real insight, and an immensely potent and hypnotic energy. But sadly, there was also a lot of lunacy and immense dysfunction. He was/is remarkably interesting as a sensual ecstatic, intuitive mystic, unlicensed psychotherapist of en masse primal scream-cry-laugh "dynamic meditation" therapy, rebellious social-political-religious provocateur, successful self-promoter, cosmic joker, and relentless iconoclast who simultaneously lured his emotionally-dependent followers into making a big icon out of himself. Though numerous Rajneeshees will claim, using vague or dubious criteria, that their guru was "fully enlightened" (Rajneesh certainly claimed this for himself) and that he enlightened them, too, with his counsels and his "special energy," the bulk evidence indicates that Rajneesh/Osho left a mixed or even tragic legacy.

This legacy involved very misleading or imbalanced teachings as well as quite helpful wisdom, some really bad advice along with genuinely good counsels, a slew of lies about himself and his movement, dozens of glaring errors in his discussions of world religions and other subjects, personal role-modeling of voracious materialist greed and conniving ambition for fame and power, narcissistic ego-inflation along with authoritarian power-plays and lack of empathy, intellectual dishonesty and petty oneupsmanship tactics, a hypocritical inability to live what he preached (e.g., telling everyone to "go beyond the mind" while talking for tens of thousands of hours from a heavily opinionated and error-prone mind; preaching that the enlightened one lives in tension-free ease viewing life as a play while he himself frequently used laughing gas/nitrous oxide and valium to the point of incoherence, said some of his closest people), a penchant by Rajneesh and his appointed leaders for deceitful spinning or rationalizing nearly every time they were confronted on anything of importance, heavy solicitations and numerous scams by his appointed leaders to fleece his followers and their families of as much of their money and possessions as possible (especially from 1980 onward), crushing work-loads for exploited disciples (routinely 15-18 hours, 7 days a week, at the Oregon ranch in USA from 1981-5), a commune at Poona, India and then one in Oregon often buzzing with ecstatic excitement and groovy sensuality but also debauched by wanton sex (and countless venereal diseases), a several-year period of violence at Poona and branch-communes worldwide (resulting in bruises, blood, even broken bones and rapes) until it was banned by the Rajneesh Foundation in 1979, and diverse criminal activity from the mid-1970s to mid-1980s in both India and Oregon. The crimes, as recounted by former disciples, included drug running, swindling and prostitution by many ashramites to pay for their lengthy stays in India or funnel money to the commune; extensive immigration fraud and tax fraud conducted by Rajneesh and Foundation leaders in India and then the USA; currency and gold smuggling when they moved to the USA in 1981; a slew of frivolous lawsuits launched to harass and intimidate local Oregon citizens from 1982-1985; failing to pay many of their loans in the USA; arson (one incident in India to defraud an insurance company, another arson attack in USA to destroy county records), racketeering, burglary, assault, conspiracy and illegal electronic surveillance (the largest such wiretapping-bugging operation ever uncovered); criminal bioterrorism sickenings of some 750 Oregonians and attempted assassinations of select outsiders and insiders in 1984-1985 by some of Rajneesh's top circle of people, led by his authorized lieutenant, Ma Sheela; and intermittent poisonings of scores if not hundreds of Rajneesh sannyasins from the late 1970s until Sheela and her "Dr. Mengele" Ma Puja left in 1985. In all, just assessing the illegal activity in the USA from 1981-1985 (not to mention earlier crimes in India), 32 Rajneeshees were charged with crimes in Oregon; 23 pleaded guilty; 2 were convicted at trial; 4 still remain fugitives; 8 served prison time.



(emphasis added)

Thanks, Desire. I know they mean well. What bothers me is their callousness to the harm that Rajneesh and his cult caused to the citizens of Antelope, Oregon, and to the victims within the cult, itself...to the innocent people who were beguiled by Rajneesh's psychopathic bull****...only to find themselves defrauded and abused when they actually went into the cult.

These are real crimes, involving real damage to real people, and they flowed from the mind and personality of Rajneesh. It is not a matter of simply hypocrisy, but of CRIME. They committed CRIMES, not only against individuals, but against the community they moved into. They were so criminal and psychopathic that they attempted to subvert the democratic process, itself...meaning they tried to disenfranchise the people of the area, capture a whole town, and set up a mini-dictatorship! Rajneesh and his bunch wanted to do on American soil what Jim Jones did in Guyana.

So how would the people here like it if someone like Rajneesh and his bunch moved into their towns, and did the same thing? Would they want their towns to be captured by a psychopathic cult leader and turned into his mini-dictatorship? How would they like it if they got poisoned with salmonella because some pathological, criminal, murderously motivated group who wanted to take over their town poisoned their food, sickening their children and their grandmothers and their boyfriends? Would they sit back and say, "Oh, but his teachings are so wonderful, so enlightened. And just look at how wonderfully non-dual he is! Yes, by all means, lets allow him to take over our town and turn it into a reflection of his own insanity! How wonderful life will be after that."

[Omni]

Wow. What a reaction. I had no clue the situation surrounding Osho was so controversial.

Is it ok for someone to be tarred with the same brush as their followers? In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)..

It seems Osho very well could have been mind controlled. I bet if someone started a community in America like Damanhur in Italy there would be a mind control op to destroy it. I have been mind controlled before to say things that are far from my natural self, I know how mind control works. I know it exists. I know they are not just sitting on their hands with this technology. It is out there active in the world. And no source is immune IMO. ANY group that forms that could be potentially powerful to help mankind spiritually or scientifically is going to be targeted. It is a fact of the early 21st century IMO.

I stay open minded about who Osho was as a person. I do not like cults though...

I am not a person who judges others so easily after I have been judged so erroneously. I can also still like a person or learn from them even if they have some flaws. You can learn from a baby if you are open to it...

[Selkie]

I dont think it possible to judge the actions of the enlightened as we come from a conditioned mind set---they are in mindless/thoughtless awareness.
They witness what happens--including what the persona does
Chris

See, I know what you mean, coming from a non-dual point of view. But to give this advice to someone fairly new to spiritual exploration could lead him/her down some very treacherous paths. We still have to live in the world. We should judge their actions, if only to save our own skins.

You could say that we learn from such experiences and encounters with "crazy wisdom." Maybe. But we could also learn a lot from trusting our own discernment that tells us - "keep away."

What people don't seem to understand is that the insanity of any cult is a reflection of the insanity of its leader. From the inner circle on down to the newest recruit, it is all a reflection of the egomania of the cult leader, with those in the inner circle being the ones who manifest his insanity the most closely, because otherwise, they would not be in the inner circle. Through the mechanism of projective identification, the insane cult leader transfers his own insanity to the followers, who act it out for him, allowing him to appear (but not to actually be) ego-free. It is a ploy that all psychopaths use.

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/psychoanalysis/concepts/projective_identification.htm

[Selkie]

...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

[ulli]

I don't want to muddy the waters further, but back when he moved to Oregon from Poona, India,
he had done the vow of silence...can't remember how long it lasted...

And there was talk that the real Rashneesh had been murdered and that the guy who appeared in Oregon was actually his brother.
And it was there and then that things changed.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Omni]

...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I think the true words of whoever was known as Jesus(that wasnt his name) are not really known. The groups that started christianity I'm pretty sure wiped his true teaching off the face of the earth. I would not be surprised if there was not a single true word from jesus in the bible. If he did speak what was in the bible I don't think he was an 'ascended master' at all.

I do not pretend to know who jesus was, but my first intuitione as a teenager was he was basically a hippy with uncommon spiritual knowledge that was twisted and impersonated to form the corrupted form of mass control which is known as christianity.

I highly doubt he was a psychopath. I do think the writers of the bible could have been psychopaths though.

[Selkie]

I don't want to muddy the waters further, but back when he moved to Oregon from Poona, India,
he had done the vow of silence...can't remember how long it lasted...

And there was talk that the real Rashneesh had been murdered and that the guy who appeared in Oregon was actually his brother.
And it was there and then that things changed.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

(my emphasis)

I had never heard that before, but I have read that Rajneesh was raised by his grandfather, and the book made no mention of a brother, so for me, the idea of a look-alike brother is very convenient and very unlikely. But I'll check it out online, anyway. Thanks!

[Selkie]

...I do think the writers of the bible could have been psychopaths though.

Yes, I think so, too.

Btw, psychopaths never show their true colors when you first meet them. It is not until they have a person completely hooked that they begin to show their true face. And that is how cults operate, too.

[Selkie]

The late Dr David Hawkins who was "enlightened said that the path of enlightenment is not the path to Sainthood, they are quite different.
As said by loveoflife we are judgemental and expect certain behaviour from the enlightened.
They are free of concepts, belief systems and all conditioning.
The persona remains and if you were the son of a bitch before enlightenment then that persona can continue.

"Enlightenment" like "God" are just words--in a way there is no such thing as enlightenment as this is your true and normal state after all the illusion/ego has dropped away. Ultimately, according to what I have read--there never was a separate person--its restricted consciousness manifest as an individual person.

The teaching of Osho is much respected by many.
With the enlightened there is neither attraction nor aversion--- If Osho was given material things then he would not be bothered if they were given or taken away.

Yogananda was given coat and gloves by his devotees--- The coat was stolen and he seemed up set--the devotees promised to get him another coat he said no I am bothered that they left me with the responsibility of the gloves.

I dont think it possible to judge the actions of the enlightened as we come from a conditioned mind set---they are in mindless/thoughtless awareness.
They witness what happens--including what the persona does.

Not saying im right this is my understanding of the moment

I would advise serious spiritual seekers to read Osho and if you dont like what you read, then you will find what you seek within. where it is anyway.


Chris

How "enlightened" and in mindless/thoughtless awareness can someone be when he poisons an entire town in the attempt to create a mini dictatorship? Sounds more like a naked power-play by an psychopathic egomaniac to me.

[Bubu]

...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

Good and bad? far as I can tell everyone in this forum is good from his own perspective. But the real good ones are those who continue to see his/her imperfections Not the ones who see wisdom in oneself. But all the bads and goods aside then only the self remains and that is the truth. To seek good and bad is to feed the ego. IMO

[Flash]

You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

[Selkie]

...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

Good and bad? far as I can tell everyone in this forum is good from his own perspective. But the real good ones are those who continue to see his/her imperfections Not the ones who see wisdom in oneself. But all the bads and goods aside then only the self remains and that is the truth. To seek good and bad is to feed the ego. IMO

Funny, there are those here who have offered me their wisdom, but I did not see them mentioning their own imperfections when they did so. They only pointed out what they see as mine.

[Selkie]

You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I would do that, but I think it would take this thread off-topic.

[Flash]

Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho. Otherwise you are rigth, it probably would with all the Jesus people then coming in

It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopatic. I have been doing extensive reading on the topic (and Carmody too) as well as have had quite a few expériences with some psychopaths, and it puzzles me that I do not see the psychopathy in Jesus.

That being said, if we take the Osho's group behaviors as you describe in the US, it definitely looks psychopatic and probably was. Also, as an enlightened master that presumably was Osho, I have a problem to understand how come he would not had made sure that any behvior hurting others would have been stopped

I am not talking of multi sexual partners or 93 Rolls Royce, because it hurts nobody, except for egos, but the rest such as poisoning people definitely has to be stopped from anyone aware of it, including englightened ones (and they may be stopping it with white magic, we do not know about this).

I have seen how easy it is for an enlightened being to have groupies, even when he rejects them, not wanting a cult, how difficult it is to stop that herd mentality towards someone deemed higher (because we can all become enlightened, no one is superior, some just have more training or réincarnations). How difficult it is for trainees and apprentices to not create inaccessible godhoodness towards their instructor (master).

I won't reproach to someone having the herd hanging on them, but definitely having anybody around hurting others has to be stopped.



You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I would do that, but I think it would take this thread off-topic.

[greybeard]

Has the thread actually been on topic since the opening post?
Im as much a culprit as anyone.

Anyone who is seen to have a growing influence, in a way which is contrary to Government, is likely to be targeted and possibly murdered.
I read in the dentist to day that the assignation of Abe Lincoln was attributed to hate inspired at his being part responsible for abolishing slavery.
Anyone promoting freedom of the people is in the sights of those behind Government.

To be clear I am not comparing the actual persons

So Osho would not have been popular with many.
He might have started off with good intention and got seduced by fame and fortune.
I really dont know.
As posted, only Osho would have known the truth of his involvement or not in the infamous actions of some of his followers.

Chris

[Selkie]

Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho. Otherwise you are rigth, it probably would with all the Jesus people then coming in

It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopatic. I have been doing extensive reading on the topic (and Carmody too) as well as have had quite a few expériences with some psychopaths, and it puzzles me that I do not see the psychopathy in Jesus.

That being said, if we take the Osho's group behaviors as you describe in the US, it definitely looks psychopatic and probably was. Also, as an enlightened master that presumably was Osho, I have a problem to understand how come he would not had made sure that any behvior hurting others would have been stopped

I am not talking of multi sexual partners or 93 Rolls Royce, because it hurts nobody, except for egos, but the rest such as poisoning people definitely has to be stopped from anyone aware of it, including englightened ones (and they may be stopping it with white magic, we do not know about this).

I have seen how easy it is for an enlightened being to have groupies, even when he rejects them, not wanting a cult, how difficult it is to stop that herd mentality towards someone deemed higher (because we can all become enlightened, no one is superior, some just have more training or réincarnations). How difficult it is for trainees and apprentices to not create inaccessible godhoodness towards their instructor (master).

I won't reproach to someone having the herd hanging on them, but definitely having anybody around hurting others has to be stopped.



[B]You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I would do that, but I think it would take this thread off-topic.


Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho

But you just told said that you want me to do just the opposite:


You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples.

Either way, I think it would take the thread off-topic, and it would be better discussed in a thread of its own.


...It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopathic...

Peeps can always go here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=918851&viewfull=1#post918851

I don't start chiming in until here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=934945&viewfull=1#post934945

[Flash]

I know, i said two opposite things. You know why? Because I read you!:p My second post is a revising of my own thoughts/request after reading your post following my first post. I thought what you wrote about risking taking the thread off topic made sense, so I revised my thinking/request.

Second post remains as is.



Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho. Otherwise you are rigth, it probably would with all the Jesus people then coming in

It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopatic. I have been doing extensive reading on the topic (and Carmody too) as well as have had quite a few expériences with some psychopaths, and it puzzles me that I do not see the psychopathy in Jesus.

That being said, if we take the Osho's group behaviors as you describe in the US, it definitely looks psychopatic and probably was. Also, as an enlightened master that presumably was Osho, I have a problem to understand how come he would not had made sure that any behvior hurting others would have been stopped

I am not talking of multi sexual partners or 93 Rolls Royce, because it hurts nobody, except for egos, but the rest such as poisoning people definitely has to be stopped from anyone aware of it, including englightened ones (and they may be stopping it with white magic, we do not know about this).

I have seen how easy it is for an enlightened being to have groupies, even when he rejects them, not wanting a cult, how difficult it is to stop that herd mentality towards someone deemed higher (because we can all become enlightened, no one is superior, some just have more training or réincarnations). How difficult it is for trainees and apprentices to not create inaccessible godhoodness towards their instructor (master).

I won't reproach to someone having the herd hanging on them, but definitely having anybody around hurting others has to be stopped.



[B]You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I would do that, but I think it would take this thread off-topic.


Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho

But you just told said that you want me to do just the opposite:


You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples.

Either way, I think it would take the thread off-topic, and it would be better discussed in a thread of its own.


...It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopathic...

Peeps can always go here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=918851&viewfull=1#post918851

I don't start chiming in until here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=934945&viewfull=1#post934945

[Selkie]

Has the thread actually been on topic since the opening post?
Im as much a culprit as anyone.

Anyone who is seen to have a growing influence, in a way which is contrary to Government, is likely to be targeted and possibly murdered.
I read in the dentist to day that the assignation of Abe Lincoln was attributed to hate inspired at his being part responsible for abolishing slavery.
Anyone promoting freedom of the people is in the sights of those behind Government.

To be clear I am not comparing the actual persons

So Osho would not have been popular with many.
He might have started off with good intention and got seduced by fame and fortune.
I really dont know.
As posted, only Osho would have known the truth of his involvement or not in the infamous actions of some of his followers.

Chris

I have answered the OP at least twice, and everything I have written here has been an attempt to show why I think Rajneesh was not a targeted person.

[Selkie]

I know, i said two opposite things. You know why? Because I read you!:p My second post is a revising of my own thoughts/request after reading your post following my first post. I thought what you wrote about risking taking the thread off topic made sense, so I revised my thinking/request.

Second post remains as is.



Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho. Otherwise you are rigth, it probably would with all the Jesus people then coming in

It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopatic. I have been doing extensive reading on the topic (and Carmody too) as well as have had quite a few expériences with some psychopaths, and it puzzles me that I do not see the psychopathy in Jesus.

That being said, if we take the Osho's group behaviors as you describe in the US, it definitely looks psychopatic and probably was. Also, as an enlightened master that presumably was Osho, I have a problem to understand how come he would not had made sure that any behvior hurting others would have been stopped

I am not talking of multi sexual partners or 93 Rolls Royce, because it hurts nobody, except for egos, but the rest such as poisoning people definitely has to be stopped from anyone aware of it, including englightened ones (and they may be stopping it with white magic, we do not know about this).

I have seen how easy it is for an enlightened being to have groupies, even when he rejects them, not wanting a cult, how difficult it is to stop that herd mentality towards someone deemed higher (because we can all become enlightened, no one is superior, some just have more training or réincarnations). How difficult it is for trainees and apprentices to not create inaccessible godhoodness towards their instructor (master).

I won't reproach to someone having the herd hanging on them, but definitely having anybody around hurting others has to be stopped.



[B]You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples. I do not see where Jesus had the signs of being a psychopath at all. Although some popes and the bible's writers talking about violence and killing one's son maybe were. Or they were plainly quite ignorant (which psychopaths are too, not having all the necessary marbles to evolve).



...In that case Jesus must be one of the worst men of all time! (half serious, but really....)...

Yes, I agree. Jesus showed all the signs of being a psychopath, so it is no wonder that the religion that developed in his name is like it is. The saving grace of any religion is everyday men and women living lives of goodness and decency, regardless of how the power-structure of their religion acts.

And maybe that could be the case with Rajneesh, if people live by what he preached, instead of living how he actually lived, which was totally at odds with his teachings. But it doesn't do to whitewash the crimes he and his followers committed any more than it does to whitewash the crimes committed by Christianity and other religions, because if we don't look at the bad, as well as the good, how are we to make informed choices?

I would do that, but I think it would take this thread off-topic.


Describing what you see as being psychopatic, then making the analogies with Jesus would certainly not take the thread off topic IF you pursue the analysis with Osho

But you just told said that you want me to do just the opposite:


You may need to define what are the signs of being a psychopath OUTSIDE of Osho's examples.

Either way, I think it would take the thread off-topic, and it would be better discussed in a thread of its own.


...It would certainly be interesting though to see what you define as psychopathic...

Peeps can always go here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=918851&viewfull=1#post918851

I don't start chiming in until here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=934945&viewfull=1#post934945

Ah, I see.

You know, Flash, I think you and I may be a lot alike :lol:

[Flash]

Thank you Silkie for your direction to another forum post of yours in which you were directing us to this wikipedia page.

Reading this I thought "forget Osho, this is exaclty how I have been raised in the Catholic Church, 2 billion people with the same credo", gosh, we were that brainswashed!!!!! Chinese just had to copy the Catholic Church! or any other fanatic religious group.

Of course, I agree with those premises, when those tactics are used, which is very often, juts Watch Fox News, it is cultish and manipulation.

You made my day! I just realised that I often say short sentences that area clichés for thought/feeling short circuiting (my own). I had been told the process but not the effect. Great.

There is much more to it (psychopathy) believe me. In my own discovery process, there is at least thirty common ways psychopaths use to manipulate.

If the below text corresponds to Osho's groups, yes it was cult, as the Catholic Church is. How Osho was involved, I would not know without speaking to him most probably.


Main points[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

In the book, Lifton outlines the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":

1.Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

2.Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

3.Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

4.Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

5.Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

6.Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

7.Doctrine over person. Members' personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

8.Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.[3]

[Selkie]

Thank you Silkie for your direction to another forum post of yours in which you were directing us to this wikipedia page.

Reading this I thought "forget Osho, this is exaclty how I have been raised in the Catholic Church, 2 billion people with the same credo", gosh, we were that brainswashed!!!!! Chinese just had to copy the Catholic Church! or any other fanatic religious group.

Of course, I agree with those premises, when those tactics are used, which is very often, juts Watch Fox News, it is cultish and manipulation.

You made my day! I just realised that I often say short sentences that area clichés for thought/feeling short circuiting (my own). I had been told the process but not the effect. Great.

There is much more to it (psychopathy) believe me. In my own discovery process, there is at least thirty common ways psychopaths use to manipulate.

If the below text corresponds to Osho's groups, yes it was cult, as the Catholic Church is. How Osho was involved, I would not know without speaking to him most probably.


Main points[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

In the book, Lifton outlines the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":

1.Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

2.Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

3.Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

4.Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

5.Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

6.Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

7.Doctrine over person. Members' personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

8.Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.[3]


I also posted some links to info about psychopaths in this thread (the Rajneesh thread). Oh, and there are tons of links in the KWP thread, too.

[Delight]

These massively confusing characters like Osho, Sai Baba and many many more cannot do without those who would follow them. They are using other's weakness and exploiting gullibility.
I have met only a few very striking humans about whom I was not sure...

"Is this a Saint or a Sociopath?"

One my friend, the local "teacher" in the Gurdjieff Foundation. This organization started in 1953 (Gurdjieff died in 1949) under the direction of Madame Jeanne de Salzmann. It was a very self approving group and thought itself elite as an organization. It used to be important to the Fourth way WORK that some direct lineage be established. This even though Gurdjieff dissolved the New York connection himself at one point.

My devoted "fourth way" friend was confusing but enjoyable. I loved him and being near him and he had mighty big flaws. He embraced a brand of "trickster" energy, turning conventionally givens upside down inside out and backwards....calling the game of his life "controlled folly". He embraced the work and lived it as a "road map". I think he lived large. IMO we admire this element of huge character more than any other aspect. My friend had talents of creating and leading.

Disgraceful "gurus" who have hurt others have this also in common....THEY LIVE LARGE. People feel something different with them and tolerate them much more than they will a less informative and enthusiastic person. I know that "Osho" channeled well. The large gifts are IMO what allows the whole belief that they must be "enlightened". And perhaps these humans have seen the light and now use the knowledge?

Gurdjieff had tremendous charisma...the energy surplus that attracts people and makes people feel special.
The flamboyant Gurdjeffian style (IMO) included bursts of temper, larger than expected recovery from disaster, extremes of affect, falling in love frequently with multiple affairs (his family and his wife were also important to him) and heavy drinking. He would throw everyone out at times. He used the money of the followers. Some were "hurt".

We label sociopathy when the people can be hurtful and very unpleasant. We still like charisma which is apparenetly an attribute of the sociopathy spectrum. energy does not equal goodness....We (IMO) are impressed by audacious and seemingly "freed up"people and those who cannot feel look very free..... Our "need" to have what we suspect others have and we have not is the set up of the con.


The Dalai Lama was shocked when he heard that Tibetan lamas were liaising with Western female students and said the only remedy for such a situation was for the culprits to be “outed,” mentioned by name publicly and no longer considered as teachers (Mackenzie, 1998, p. 179). But he also pointed out that, in the final analysis, the authority of a guru was bestowed by the disciple. The guru doesn’t go looking for disciples. The Dalai Lama’s recipe is to “spy” on the guru for at least ten years. Listen, examine, watch, until you are convinced the person is sincere. In the meantime, treat him or her as an ordinary human being and receive the person’s teaching as “just information” (p. 182).

Marion Caplan’s (2002) response to the challenge of gurus is that seekers should aim for a “conscious discipleship that is fully empowered, intelligent, and discriminating.” This, she says, places “the power and responsibility back into the hands and heart of the disciple.” But engaging in guru-disciple relationships from what she calls an “empowered perspective” presupposes a level of maturity and discernment, too often lacking in beginners or new converts—the sort of person I was at the outset of my long and rocky journey.

What was thought to be a passing fad of the 1960s and 1970s has not disappeared. People still go to India and elsewhere to surrender their minds to gurus—even to those who have been exposed as frauds, charlatans, liars, and hypocrites. In addition, many self-styled false messiahs have emerged in the West. Increasing numbers of New Age teachers and leaders of groups, workshops, and seminars who claim “this is it,” “this will change your life,” “here is the way,” continue to mushroom. They are not all harmful, of course, but what seekers need to be wary of are those groups whose leaders proclaim to be God incarnate and expect to be worshipped and treated as such. Invariably, they have ended up exploiting their followers sexually, emotionally, and financially. Rather than spiritual lights, these gurus have turned out to be deluded con men; a few have been downright psychopaths.

The guru-disciple relationship is probably the most authoritarian of all in its demands for surrender and obedience. Hence it can be the most destructive. And so far from achieving the enlightenment and freedom that many of us “wannabe” spiritual pioneers of the 1970s sought (and were promised), we experienced mental imprisonment and confusion. We were seduced by yogis and swamis telling us what we wanted to hear: that we were special and that they were God incarnate. Our need was our downfall. If and when we escaped, the questions that often lingered were “What if it is just me, something wrong with me? Have I failed, given up too soon?”The Potential for Abuse in the Guru-Disciple Relationship (http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-potential-for-abuse-garden-en4-3)

[Selkie]

What i find interesting about this thread is how people are able to judge anothers spirituality/enlightenment without knowing all the facts...

Facts? Here are some facts:


...No hard evidence that Rajneesh had sex with his disciples? Well there is no stack of porno movies of him having sex, but certainly enough sannyasin girls have told me about their encounters with him, including the early grabbing stage of his sex life and the requests for disciples to have sex in front of him. I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona. What do people want for proof?...

http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-potential-for-abuse-garden-en4-3



...Then how others can asses how a spiritual person should act, by what criteria, and where did that preconceived standard come from?

We can judge ("assess") them by their acts, just like we judge anyone else. Just because a person is seen as "spiritual", or claims they are "spiritual" does not mean that their behavior should be judged any differently than anyone else's, and what you are suggesting, perhaps without realizing it, is no less than a double-standard for judging behavior: one for the "spiritual" and another for everyone else.


...Osho is an iconoclast and a rebel, who took on all the worlds religions and politicians.

If only that were true. In actual fact, he acted just like them. The only difference is that he does not seem to have been a pedophile. But then, neither are all of them.



... As someone mentions earlier in the thread to form an opinion based on media reports of a controversial figure like him is surely is to be misinformed.

In the media he was known as the sex guru, out the many books of his published, (of which he wrote none they were all transcripts of his discouses), only one had sex in the title, one of his earlier books. 'From Sex to Superconsciousness' was enough for the label to stick and it was a book about transcending sex.

Again, here is that eye-witness testimony:


...No hard evidence that Rajneesh had sex with his disciples? Well there is no stack of porno movies of him having sex, but certainly enough sannyasin girls have told me about their encounters with him, including the early grabbing stage of his sex life and the requests for disciples to have sex in front of him. I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona. What do people want for proof?...

http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-potential-for-abuse-garden-en4-3


Doesn't sound very transcendent to me.

[Selkie]

...A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

Wouldn't you have to eat the egg, or at least crack it open, to know whether it was as sick as the chicken, or not?

Very few here seem to want to crack open the egg that is Rajneesh, but when you do, you find a bloody yolk. Pretty disgusting, I would say.

[Selkie]

These massively confusing characters like Osho, Sai Baba and many many more cannot do without those who would follow them. They are using other's weakness and exploiting gullibility.
I have met only a few very striking humans about whom I was not sure...

"Is this a Saint or a Sociopath?"

One my friend, the local "teacher" in the Gurdjieff Foundation. This organization started in 1953 (Gurdjieff died in 1949) under the direction of Madame Jeanne de Salzmann. It was a very self approving group and thought itself elite as an organization. It used to be important to the Fourth way WORK that some direct lineage be established. This even though Gurdjieff dissolved the New York connection himself at one point.

My devoted "fourth way" friend was confusing but enjoyable. I loved him and being near him and he had mighty big flaws. He embraced a brand of "trickster" energy, turning conventionally givens upside down inside out and backwards....calling the game of his life "controlled folly". He embraced the work and lived it as a "road map". I think he lived large. IMO we admire this element of huge character more than any other aspect. My friend had talents of creating and leading.

Disgraceful "gurus" who have hurt others have this also in common....THEY LIVE LARGE. People feel something different with them and tolerate them much more than they will a less informative and enthusiastic person. I know that "Osho" channeled well. The large gifts are IMO what allows the whole belief that they must be "enlightened". And perhaps these humans have seen the light and now use the knowledge?

Gurdjieff had tremendous charisma...the energy surplus that attracts people and makes people feel special.
The flamboyant Gurdjeffian style (IMO) included bursts of temper, larger than expected recovery from disaster, extremes of affect, falling in love frequently with multiple affairs (his family and his wife were also important to him) and heavy drinking. He would throw everyone out at times. He used the money of the followers. Some were "hurt".

We label sociopathy when the people can be hurtful and very unpleasant. We still like charisma which is apparenetly an attribute of the sociopathy spectrum. energy does not equal goodness....We (IMO) are impressed by audacious and seemingly "freed up"people and those who cannot feel look very free..... Our "need" to have what we suspect others have and we have not is the set up of the con.


...The guru-disciple relationship is probably the most authoritarian of all in its demands for surrender and obedience. Hence it can be the most destructive.

The Potential for Abuse in the Guru-Disciple Relationship (http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-potential-for-abuse-garden-en4-3)

(my emphasis)

A guru who has sex with followers is like a therapist who has sex with clients. It is more akin to incest than it is to an adult/adult relationship because the follower has accepted the guru as an authority figure. One** cannot put someone in a position of surrender and obedience and, at the same time, expect them to refuse sex, not to mention that gurus often re-label sex as something else to lower the followers' guard and make them feel wrong and bad for refusing.

** I am not referring to the author of this post, btw.

[greybeard]

...A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

Wouldn't you have to eat the egg, or at least crack it open, to know whether it was as sick as the chicken, or not?

Very few here seem to want to crack open the egg that is Rajneesh, but when you do, you find a bloody yolk. Pretty disgusting, I would say.

Silkie the teaching is the egg I refer to and those that I have cracked open are valid.
He is dead and gone--murdered or not---a higher justice, Karma takes care of everything---eventually.
Nothing and no one escapes the consequences of their actions.

It seems its possible to reincarnate as non human--ie animal.
So if the vibration of his spiritual energy fell to such a great degree that's a possibility.

I would not spend my time investigating the past evils of the world, rather know about the great achievements of the human race as a whole.
Consciousness is rising and that seems to me to be the important thing as it is happening in the present moment.
There in lies the peace of the world.

Chris

[Delight]

Maybe the Universe balances the actions of one like OSHO. It is not so much my interest to focus on the evils but I will admit I am a little obsessed by the pattern presented. I think the giving over of power of the followers seems to me to be the important thing as it is happening in the present moment.

Basically how can 99 be controlled by 1 (one guru to 99 followers etc.)????????????? Look and see countless stories here and everywhere of variations of power given to the stars of our choosing. We feel we must worship to get the reflected glory or attonement. Then "the stars" become beings beyond criticism in many minds.

It happens now in politics, religion, new age and anywhere a charismatic and facile speaker or set of ideas can overwhelm the inner voice of knowing. The collective focus makes a megalomaniacal force that has only an interest in keeping itself going.

My main concern is how to balance OUR response to megalomania. It will always start small and build and at every step needs the energy of others to feed its dynamic.

Already convinced of lack, the lacky seeks to make good. Not out of strength but out of weakness the offering bowing and scraping and sacrificing for the "greater good"

We are not to blame for this obvious program. But I think we have to face facts: being beguiled drives the whole sordid engine of false glamour and tricks.

What I notice in myself and in humans is the desire to surrender authority because of a feeling of being power-less. I am concerned about "Following" as a quality of being is misguiding us. As a characteristic, the follower is seeking second hand from a source that appears to have something to grant.

In exchange for vicarious power, I give my self away, work night and day to support the agendas of others, am persuaded by glamours and beguiled by superficial values, fail to feel adequate without approval from a god authority? All these attributes will be calculatedly used against me sending me to the same dead ends.

What is not seen is that this authority shines from OUR energy of attention.
IMO to each be our own source would change the collective dynamics for the good of ourselves and others. How we may uncover the power we feel we have not available is my question.

I am really tired of what I already know. I want to learn something new. I would love to see what it is like to have each of us feeling the juice ourselves.

[greybeard]

Delight
I agree that its a mistake to give ones power to another--this leads to stagnation and worse.
Its one thing to follow teachings quite another to follow, to put some one on a pedestal.
The Buddha said "Put no head above your own" very sound advice.

As for combating megalomania, it is my choice not to give it energy by fighting it---fighting is the same energy that feeds the ego/megalomania.
My choice is to grow to know this self regardless of exterior conditions
I believe in "Be the change you want to see"
Its in my signature, which I try to follow as best I can.

Best wishes
Chris

[Selkie]

...and those that I have cracked open are valid.

So, then, you are simply making generalizations?, hoping that what was true of them is also true of Rajneesh? But this thread is not about generalizations or those other ones you speak of, whoever they are. This thread is about Rajneesh, and when you crack that egg, it is rotten inside.


He is dead and gone--murdered or not---a higher justice, Karma takes care of everything---eventually.
Nothing and no one escapes the consequences of their actions.

Are you referring to death? If so, that is not Karma, it is simply death.


It seems its possible to reincarnate as non human--ie animal.
So if the vibration of his spiritual energy fell to such a great degree that's a possibility.

First, let me say that I do not believe in Karma. Having said that, though, animals may live hard and (at times) brutal lives, but they are innocent, so Karma would not apply to them as vehicles of Karmic justice (unless maybe Rajneesh gets eaten by a tiger in his next life as a human).

But actually, from the standpoint of Karma...even though I don't believe in it...perhaps the life of Rajneesh this time is a Karmic punishment for something he did in a previous life...maybe as an even more corrupt spiritual con man than he was this time around (except he got away with it). One can only hope.


...I would not spend my time investigating the past evils of the world...

Even though the saying goes that those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it, and that investigating the past might help you to avoid Karma (even though I don't believe in it)?

[Selkie]

Maybe the Universe balances the actions of one like OSHO. It is not so much my interest to focus on the evils but I will admit I am a little obsessed by the pattern presented. I think the giving over of power of the followers seems to me to be the important thing as it is happening in the present moment.

Basically how can 99 be controlled by 1 (one guru to 99 followers etc.)????????????? Look and see countless stories here and everywhere of variations of power given to the stars of our choosing. We feel we must worship to get the reflected glory or attonement. Then "the stars" become beings beyond criticism in many minds.

It happens now in politics, religion, new age and anywhere a charismatic and facile speaker or set of ideas can overwhelm the inner voice of knowing. The collective focus makes a megalomaniacal force that has only an interest in keeping itself going.

My main concern is how to balance OUR response to megalomania. It will always start small and build and at every step needs the energy of others to feed its dynamic.

Already convinced of lack, the lacky seeks to make good. Not out of strength but out of weakness the offering bowing and scraping and sacrificing for the "greater good"

We are not to blame for this obvious program. But I think we have to face facts: being beguiled drives the whole sordid engine of false glamour and tricks.

What I notice in myself and in humans is the desire to surrender authority because of a feeling of being power-less. I am concerned about "Following" as a quality of being is misguiding us. As a characteristic, the follower is seeking second hand from a source that appears to have something to grant.

In exchange for vicarious power, I give my self away, work night and day to support the agendas of others, am persuaded by glamours and beguiled by superficial values, fail to feel adequate without approval from a god authority? All these attributes will be calculatedly used against me sending me to the same dead ends.

What is not seen is that this authority shines from OUR energy of attention.
IMO to each be our own source would change the collective dynamics for the good of ourselves and others. How we may uncover the power we feel we have not available is my question.

I am really tired of what I already know. I want to learn something new. I would love to see what it is like to have each of us feeling the juice ourselves.

What you say is true. And it is also why gurus secretly hate and are contemptuous of their followers. See Sam Vakin's Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited.

What makes cults so dangerous to their followers is that the cult faces totally inward. All experience is defined by doctrine. Perception itself is controlled by doctrine. I know, because I have been in a cult. A cult is a self-sealed system

http://cultresearch.org/pdf/bc_in_csr.pdf

in which freedom of thought and action are systemically undermined. That is why so many cults emphasize "mindlessness". Because when you are mindless, you have lost your way to categorize your experiences, and so you can be raped and not know it until years later, after you regain your critical capacities. Abusive families operate the same way. Everybody knows this.

[Michel Leclerc]

Dear all, I am having trouble with the unreflected way the word "psychopath" is being used on this thread.

It seems to serve as a double for "scapegoat", "rotten apple" etc.

I am a fan of etymology: a psuchopathès (not a word of classical Greek, though, but coined in its moulds) means "somebody whose soul is suffering".

Honestly, my soul is suffering a lot. I am under the impression that this is also true for the forum members posting here.

I guess we are all psychopaths.

[Selkie]

...I guess we are all psychopaths.

No, we are not. They are a very specific group, about 1% of the general population. Do a search. You will find tons of info. There are lots of links just in this thread where you can start to learn about them.

[Flash]

Psychopaths, in the English/French meanings are people who have no empathy. I will not be looking at classical Greek or Latin for definition, they are dead languages. I will look at living languages.

a person who is mentally ill, who does not care about other people, and who is usually dangerous or violent - Merriem Webster dictionary

they are 1 to 4% of the population no more, have caracteristic brain anomalies and genetic ones as well. Nothing to do with a suffering soul. If you have a suffering soul, you are not a psychopath by definition. They are a breed by themselves. And they often breed together, so the offspring have the same disease, we call that bloodlines.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all the same, because every single one of us is different to start with, but has some commonalities with others. Psychopaths are different too and have some commonalities that makes them have others around them suffer, because of them.


Dear all, I am having trouble with the unreflected way the word "psychopath" is being used on this thread.


It seems to serve as a double for "scapegoat", "rotten apple" etc.

I am a fan of etymology: a psuchopathès (not a word of classical Greek, though, but coined in its moulds) means "somebody whose soul is suffering".

Honestly, my soul is suffering a lot. I am under the impression that this is also true for the forum members posting here.

I guess we are all psychopaths.

[loveoflife]

It would imagine that those who are interested in the defamation of Osho are quite pleased with the the manner in which they have dominated this thread, well done and congratulations for keeping his name alive.

I would also imagine that Osho is also pleased with this thread, he does like to evoke a response/reaction and whether it is positive or negative does not matter as they are two sides of the same coin, there being one energy with two complimentary opposites.

Many of the accusations against Osho were perpetrated by Ma Anand Sheela while he was in silent retreat for several years in Oregon. From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneeshpuram


As Rajneesh himself did not speak in public during this period and until October 1984 gave few interviews, his secretary and chief spokesperson Ma Anand Sheela (Sheela Silverman) became, for practical purposes, the leader of the commune.[3] She did little to defuse the conflict, employing a crude, caustic and defensive speaking style that exacerbated hostilities and attracted media attention.[3] On September 14, 1985, Sheela and 15 to 20 other top officials abruptly left Rajneeshpuram.[3] The following week, Rajneesh convened press conferences and publicly accused Sheela and her team of having committed crimes within and outside the commune.[3][9] The subsequent criminal investigation, the largest in Oregon history, confirmed that a secretive group had, unbeknownst to both government officials and nearly all Rajneeshpuram residents, engaged in a variety of criminal activities, including the attempted murder of Rajneesh's physician, wiretapping and bugging within the commune and within Rajneesh's home, poisonings of two public officials, and arson.[3][10]

Sheela was extradited from Germany and imprisoned for these crimes, as well as for her role in infecting the salad bars of several restaurants in The Dalles (the county seat of Wasco County) with salmonella, poisoning over 750 (including several Wasco County public officials) and resulting in the hospitalization of 45 people. Known as the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack, the incident is regarded as the largest germ warfare attack in the history of the United States. These criminal activities had, according to the Office of the Attorney General, begun in the spring of 1984, three years after the establishment of the commune.[3] Rajneesh himself was accused of immigration violations, to which he entered an Alford plea. As part of his plea bargain, he agreed to leave the United States and eventually returned to Poona, India. His followers left Oregon shortly afterwards.


Anyway this is all history, there is no trace of the organisation as it existed then left, only a few centers that do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past.



It does seem that those who are against him are more obsessed with him than those who are for him and that those who attack him know little of his wisdom and teaching preferring to focus on the negative external events that happened around him while ignoring the positive.

Notice how little counter arguments there are to the accusations on this thread, those who understand the man know better that to their waste time.

Love him or hate him. Oshos legacy lives on in his words and meditations.


Osho’s “Ten Commandments”

In his early days as Acharya Rajneesh, a correspondent once asked Osho for his “Ten Commandments”. In reply Osho noted that it was a difficult matter because he was against any kind of commandment but, “just for fun”, set out the following;


1 Never obey anyone’s command unless it is coming from within you also.

2 There is no God other than life itself.

3 Truth is within you, do not search for it elsewhere.

4 Love is prayer.

5 To become a nothingness is the door to truth. Nothingness itself is the means, the goal and attainment.

6 Life is now and here.

7 Live wakefully.

8 Do not swim—float.

9 Die each moment so that you can be new each moment.

10 Do not search. That which is, is. Stop and see.

He underlined numbers 3, 7, 9 and 10.The ideas expressed in these Commandments have remained constant leitmotifs in his movement.

[greybeard]

loveoflife I consistently defend the teaching--I cant condemn or praise Osho as I did not know him.
You obviously know a lot about Osho ---I dont

I will say though Media reports of a negative nature can not be trusted.
The general public are gullible and tend to take the written word as gospel.

Its easy for TPTB to target and destroy the reputation of an individual through the press..
The biggest fear they have is mankind waking up spiritually
Osho's teaching certainly is a wake up call.

Chris

[loveoflife]

loveoflife I consistently defend the teaching--I cant condemn or praise Osho as I did not know him.
You obviously know a lot about Osho ---I dont

I will say though Media reports of a negative nature can not be trusted.
The general public are gullible and tend to take the written word as gospel.

Its easy for TPTB to target and destroy the reputation of an individual through the press..
The biggest fear they have is mankind waking up spiritually
Osho's teaching certainly is a wake up call.

Chris

Yes i read the biographies and have spoken to those who were around when he was alive, i have heard both positive and negative reviews. His life story is an amazing read.

Sheela ran his organisation like a cult during the years he was in silent retreat. I have found that its not the masters who run the movements in their name, that task is usually delegated to the followers with managment skills, and what they do the masters do not necessarily know about, especially if those managers are attached to the prestige of their positions, and/or even dipping their fingers in the till.

Osho was a genius who used to read eleven books a day, he was also a rascal, a rebel and an outspoken trouble causer. He spoke on all the mystery schools extensively, like Tantra, Tao, Sufi, Zen, and much much more.

The events surrounding his arrest were very unusual and suspicious, and from the deterioration in his health afterwards it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody. He then became public enemy number one, he had to leave India and was refused admission to country after country as the USA had put his name on a suspected terrorist list.

Now though the tables have turned, he is respected in India and many places today. Though not on this thread.

His followers do not mind when mud is slung at him, he was not a holy man, its his message thats important not the man and what built up around him.

It is said that those who do the most harm to a masters teachings are those follow in his name.

[Selkie]

loveoflife I consistently defend the teaching--I cant condemn or praise Osho as I did not know him.
You obviously know a lot about Osho ---I dont

I will say though Media reports of a negative nature can not be trusted.
The general public are gullible and tend to take the written word as gospel.

Its easy for TPTB to target and destroy the reputation of an individual through the press..
The biggest fear they have is mankind waking up spiritually
Osho's teaching certainly is a wake up call.

Chris

Yes i read the biographies and have spoken to those who were around when he was alive, i have heard both positive and negative reviews. His life story is an amazing read.

Sheela ran his organisation like a cult during the years he was in silent retreat. I have found that its not the masters who run the movements in their name, that task is usually delegated to the followers with managment skills, and what they do the masters do not necessarily know about, especially if those managers are attached to the prestige of their positions, and/or even dipping their fingers in the till.

Osho was a genius who used to read eleven books a day, he was also a rascal, a rebel and an outspoken trouble causer. He spoke on all the mystery schools extensively, like Tantra, Tao, Sufi, Zen, and much much more.

The events surrounding his arrest were very unusual and suspicious, and from the deterioration in his health afterwards it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody. He then became public enemy number one, he had to leave India and was refused admission to country after country as the USA had put his name on a suspected terrorist list.

Now though the tables have turned, he is respected in India and many places today. Though not on this thread.

His followers do not mind when mud is slung at him, he was not a holy man, its his message thats important not the man and what built up around him.

It is said that those who do the most harm to a masters teachings are those follow in his name.

The abuses are always blamed on someone else, usually those in the inner circle. But the cult only carries out the directives of the leader, the guru. Rajneesh is just a guilty as any of them. More so, even, because if it wasn't for him, there would have been no cult.

[Selkie]

...Its easy for TPTB to target and destroy the reputation of an individual through the press..

Rajneesh destroyed himself, through his own reprehensible behavior, and that of his cult. Unless you think that it should not make the news when a cult and its leader poison several hundred people in an attempt to create a dictatorship.

If anything, the PTB gave him a free pass. His behavior in India was so bad


By 1980 the ashram was so controversial that Indira Gandhi, despite an association between Rajneesh and the Indian Congress Party dating to the 1960s, was unwilling to intercede after her return to power...

...In 1981, increased tension in the Pune ashram, criticism of its activities, and threatened punitive action by Indian authorities resulted in Sheela and Rajneesh deciding to move the operation to the United States.[75][76][77]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh



that he and Sheela fled to the States, whereupon they demonstrated their enlightenment this way,


In 1984, the commune imported thousands of homeless people from U.S. cities in an unsuccessful attempt to register them to vote in an upcoming county election. When this was challenged, the people were released in surrounding towns for Oregon State to return them to their home cities at state expense


in addition to poisoning over 700 people.

So defend him all you will, and close your eyes to the harm and evil that he did all
you want,

http://www.knysnakeep.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Hear-No-Evil-See-No-Evil...Or-Are-They-Evil-Politicians.jpg

but it is a matter of record.


Btw, does this, below, this remind you of anyone?


In 1984, the commune imported thousands of homeless people from U.S. cities...


It should. It should remind you of Jim Jones.

[Carmody]

...A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

Wouldn't you have to eat the egg, or at least crack it open, to know whether it was as sick as the chicken, or not?

Very few here seem to want to crack open the egg that is Rajneesh, but when you do, you find a bloody yolk. Pretty disgusting, I would say.

More than anything, it is obvious that you have issues surrounding these things. (I am not exempt, I have my own issues, being of this 'space' involves such 'things')

That brandishing a sword opposite a thing is the heart of engaging it and thus living within it's grasp. A position as a mirror image is just as assured a prison as the given original vehicle itself.

[Selkie]

...He then became public enemy number one, he had to leave India...

So, he was so bad that India, his own people, did not want him...

[Selkie]

...A sick chicken can produce healthy eggs.

Chris

Wouldn't you have to eat the egg, or at least crack it open, to know whether it was as sick as the chicken, or not?

Very few here seem to want to crack open the egg that is Rajneesh, but when you do, you find a bloody yolk. Pretty disgusting, I would say.

More than anything, it is obvious that you have issues surrounding these things. (I am not exempt, I have my own issues, being of this 'space' involves such 'things')

That brandishing a sword opposite a thing is the heart of engaging it and thus living within it's grasp. A position as a mirror image is just as assured a prison as the given original vehicle itself.

The opposite applies, too, you know. But you do not mention that.

And btw, thanks for this,


(I am not exempt, I have my own issues, being of this 'space' involves such 'things')



I would like to add that when a cult becomes notorious for evil, people often want to excuse the cult leader, but I have been in a cult, and I know that everything it does...everything...flows from the mind of the leader.


...Valium addicts often think the CIA or some other unseen villains are plotting against them, so it is not surprising that he imagined that he was poisoned by the United States Government. His reasoning powers became so damaged that Rajneesh actually considered moving to Russia to combine his totalitarian form of spirituality with Russian communism, an idea no sane man could possibly entertain. Rajneesh publicly called for the assassination of Michael Gorbachev, because Gorbachev was moving Russia to Western style capitalism instead of Rajneesh's own brand of "spiritual communism." Historically, Valium has been the drug of choice for CFS sufferers as it masks the unnerving symptoms of dysautonomia and helps bring sleep. Rajneesh suffered from insomnia, another classic symptom of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

Rajneesh was a physically ill man who became mentally corrupt. His brief experimentation with LSD only made matters worse. Rajneesh's drug use and addiction was a problem of his own making, not a government conspiracy. Rajneesh died in 1990 with heart failure listed as the official cause of death. It is probable that the physical decline Rajneesh experienced during his incarceration in American jails was due to a combination of withdrawal symptoms from his Valium addiction and an aggravation of his Chronic Fatigue Syndrome due to stress and exposure to allergens.

After Rajneesh's humiliation and downfall in America, he declared that he was "Jesus crucified by Ronald Reagan's America." In truth, Rajneesh was a drug addicted guru who self-destructed because of his own wrong actions. Comparing himself to Jesus was doubly dishonest, as he himself had no respect for Jesus. He once undiplomatically proclaimed to the American media that everything Jesus said was "just crazy."

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

[Selkie]

...it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody...

Oh, and btw, about that thallium poisoning...



The rumor that Rajneesh was poisoned with thallium by operatives of the United States Government is entirely fictional and contradicted by undeniable fact. One of the obvious symptoms of thallium poisoning is dramatic hair loss within seven days of exposure. Rajneesh died with a full beard and no exceptional baldness other than ordinary male pattern baldness at the top of his head. Radiation poisoning, another fictional cause of his illness, also causes dramatic hair loss.

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

addition When a megalomaniacal narcissist is denied sources of narcissistic supply, as would happen in prison, they go into a steep decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply


The term is typically used in a negative sense, describing a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents, or such a need in the orally fixated, that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.

Not to mention that in prison, he no longer had his cult to carry his insanity for him.

[Selkie]

...Osho's teaching certainly is a wake up call....

Actually, his teachings are hollow...empty words...as he and his cult demonstrated before the eyes of the world.

[loveoflife]

As i said i am not going to waste my time with fanatics. Do you see what i mean how those who are anti Osho are more obsessed with him than those who admire him? Their confirmation bias and motivated reasoning will lead them to believe everything negative about him while ignoring the positive.

Love him or hate him, he is still the focal point. He is certainly not a man to be ignored.



Don't Follow Me - Because I am Lost Myself http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/From_Unconciousness_to_Consciousness/Osho-From-Unconciousness-to-Consciousness-00000002.html

[Selkie]

As i said i am not going to waste my time with fanatics. Do you see what i mean how those who are anti Osho are more obsessed with him than those who admire him?

Love him or hate him, he is still the focal point. He is certainly not a man to be ignored.



Don't Follow Me - Because I am Lost Myself http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/From_Unconciousness_to_Consciousness/Osho-From-Unconciousness-to-Consciousness-00000002.html

People are not anti-Rajneesh for no reason. He poisoned more than 700 people in his bid to take over a town, and that is evil. His evil needs constant exposure because there are those who would whitewash it.

The man was corrupt...thoroughly corrupt...and that is what he should be remembered for, like Jim Jones, David Koresh, "Moses" Berg, Aum Shinrikyo and others. If this thread was about them, instead of Rajneesh, I would be doing the same thing.

[Flash]

Silkie, that Osho was a monster or not is irrelevant here, for you and I.

Everyone who cares for you on this forum is actually telling you to let go of it. Your hurts are more than obvious.

I have learned something from someone, the only person I think, that I truly hated. A psychopath.:

1. As long as I was hating him, I was in his grip.
2. This was turning my body into an acidic unhealthy being.
3. This was turning my loved ones into acidic unhealthy beings too.
4. He was remaining as gleefull and healthy as before. The only one hurt was me and my loved ones.

5. Cutting all links, internally and externally, made it. I restarted to live with more joy and inner spring.

6. He is now, years later and with lesser sources of énergies, in very bad shape. But I absolutely refuse any of his trials to put the hook on me psychologically again.

The solution: TO LET GO - for your own good.

Only then will your words have real weight, because they will be measured and based upon inner strenght, not upon hatred.

(and please, do not deny the hatred, seeing it, exposing it, accepting it, dealing with it is part of the cure, the shadow coming out).

He died in 1990 - time to let go. He cannot hurt others anymore, and his words have no weight if not put in daily practice.

Why not target actual cult leaders?? this would help greatly.

I have the taste to make a joke here: starting with cult leaders number 1: the Bush family. And number 2: the Clintons. They are much more damaging to a great number of people.
And then go upward.
For this hatred has to be worked through, because this is the way to trap us. Then the mind becomes clear and the solutions shows up.




...it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody...

Oh, and btw, about that thallium poisoning...



The rumor that Rajneesh was poisoned with thallium by operatives of the United States Government is entirely fictional and contradicted by undeniable fact. One of the obvious symptoms of thallium poisoning is dramatic hair loss within seven days of exposure. Rajneesh died with a full beard and no exceptional baldness other than ordinary male pattern baldness at the top of his head. Radiation poisoning, another fictional cause of his illness, also causes dramatic hair loss.

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

addition When a megalomaniacal narcissist is denied sources of narcissistic supply, as would happen in prison, they go into a steep decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply


The term is typically used in a negative sense, describing a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents, or such a need in the orally fixated, that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.

Not to mention that in prison, he no longer had his cult to carry his insanity for him.

[loveoflife]

Silkie, that Osho was a monster or not is irrelevant here, for you and I.

Everyone who cares for you on this forum is actually telling you to let go of it. Your hurts are more than obvious.

I have learned something from someone, the only person I think, that I truly hated. A psychopath.:

1. As long as I was hating him, I was in his grip.
2. This was turning my body into an acidic unhealthy being.
3. This was turning my loved ones into acidic unhealthy beings too.
4. He was remaining as gleefull and healthy as before. The only one hurt was me and my loved ones.

5. Cutting all links, internally and externally, made it. I restarted to live with more joy and inner spring.

6. He is now, years later and with lesser sources of énergies, in very bad shape. But I absolutely refuse any of his trials to put the hook on me psychologically again.

The solution: TO LET GO - for your own good.

Only then will your words have real weight, because they will be measured and based upon inner strenght, not upon hatred.

(and please, do not deny the hatred, seeing it, exposing it, accepting it, dealing with it is part of the cure, the shadow coming out).




...it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody...

Oh, and btw, about that thallium poisoning...



The rumor that Rajneesh was poisoned with thallium by operatives of the United States Government is entirely fictional and contradicted by undeniable fact. One of the obvious symptoms of thallium poisoning is dramatic hair loss within seven days of exposure. Rajneesh died with a full beard and no exceptional baldness other than ordinary male pattern baldness at the top of his head. Radiation poisoning, another fictional cause of his illness, also causes dramatic hair loss.

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

addition When a megalomaniacal narcissist is denied sources of narcissistic supply, as would happen in prison, they go into a steep decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply


The term is typically used in a negative sense, describing a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents, or such a need in the orally fixated, that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.

Not to mention that in prison, he no longer had his cult to carry his insanity for him.

I see someone else has noticed the fanatical obsession.

You talk as if Silkie is a person possessed.

[Selkie]

Silkie, that Osho was a monster or not is irrelevant here, for you and I.

Everyone who cares for you on this forum is actually telling you to let go of it. Your hurts are more than obvious.

I have learned something from someone, the only person I think, that I truly hated. A psychopath.:

1. As long as I was hating him, I was in his grip.
2. This was turning my body into an acidic unhealthy being.
3. This was turning my loved ones into acidic unhealthy beings too.
4. He was remaining as gleefull and healthy as before. The only one hurt was me and my loved ones.

5. Cutting all links, internally and externally, made it. I restarted to live with more joy and inner spring.

6. He is now, years later and with lesser sources of énergies, in very bad shape. But I absolutely refuse any of his trials to put the hook on me psychologically again.

The solution: TO LET GO - for your own good.

Only then will your words have real weight, because they will be measured and based upon inner strenght, not upon hatred.

(and please, do not deny the hatred, seeing it, exposing it, accepting it, dealing with it is part of the cure, the shadow coming out).




...it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody...

Oh, and btw, about that thallium poisoning...



The rumor that Rajneesh was poisoned with thallium by operatives of the United States Government is entirely fictional and contradicted by undeniable fact. One of the obvious symptoms of thallium poisoning is dramatic hair loss within seven days of exposure. Rajneesh died with a full beard and no exceptional baldness other than ordinary male pattern baldness at the top of his head. Radiation poisoning, another fictional cause of his illness, also causes dramatic hair loss.

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

addition When a megalomaniacal narcissist is denied sources of narcissistic supply, as would happen in prison, they go into a steep decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply


The term is typically used in a negative sense, describing a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents, or such a need in the orally fixated, that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.

Not to mention that in prison, he no longer had his cult to carry his insanity for him.

I know you mean well, lol.

[Flash]

I do not only mean well for you, but for humanity. I added to the previous post, please read it (you are too fast for me).

Much love to all, but certainly not blindness. And no hatred (as much as I can, I am not totally through yet - and my psycho showed me how much work was remaining to be done in me)



Silkie, that Osho was a monster or not is irrelevant here, for you and I.

Everyone who cares for you on this forum is actually telling you to let go of it. Your hurts are more than obvious.

I have learned something from someone, the only person I think, that I truly hated. A psychopath.:

1. As long as I was hating him, I was in his grip.
2. This was turning my body into an acidic unhealthy being.
3. This was turning my loved ones into acidic unhealthy beings too.
4. He was remaining as gleefull and healthy as before. The only one hurt was me and my loved ones.

5. Cutting all links, internally and externally, made it. I restarted to live with more joy and inner spring.

6. He is now, years later and with lesser sources of énergies, in very bad shape. But I absolutely refuse any of his trials to put the hook on me psychologically again.

The solution: TO LET GO - for your own good.

Only then will your words have real weight, because they will be measured and based upon inner strenght, not upon hatred.

(and please, do not deny the hatred, seeing it, exposing it, accepting it, dealing with it is part of the cure, the shadow coming out).




...it was obvious that he was poisoned with thallium while in custody...

Oh, and btw, about that thallium poisoning...



The rumor that Rajneesh was poisoned with thallium by operatives of the United States Government is entirely fictional and contradicted by undeniable fact. One of the obvious symptoms of thallium poisoning is dramatic hair loss within seven days of exposure. Rajneesh died with a full beard and no exceptional baldness other than ordinary male pattern baldness at the top of his head. Radiation poisoning, another fictional cause of his illness, also causes dramatic hair loss.

http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

addition When a megalomaniacal narcissist is denied sources of narcissistic supply, as would happen in prison, they go into a steep decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply


The term is typically used in a negative sense, describing a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents, or such a need in the orally fixated, that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.

Not to mention that in prison, he no longer had his cult to carry his insanity for him.

I know you mean well, lol.




Lovelife: I see someone else has noticed the fanatical obsession.

You talk as if Silkie is a person possessed.



In no way do I think Silkie is possessed in any regard. She/he is just human, no possession here, only bad bad memories and lots of anger. She/he no more possessed than I was, unless possession is our one inner reworking of PTSD symptoms.
PTSD yes, he/she has in my views.
Fanatical, no, but thoroughly convinced and mostly thoroughly angry at what was done.
Thread killer, maybe :p

I do not know if he/she realise how many people here are caring for he/her. It is very obvious in the posts - they often have nothing to do with the ideas presented, but definitely with the caring

[Selkie]

...I see someone else has noticed the fanatical obsession.

You talk as if Silkie is a person possessed.

This isn't true. Not to mention that it is very unkind, personal, and prejudicial.

[Selkie]

...thoroughly convinced and mostly thoroughly angry at what was done...

Yes. What horrifies me in this thread is the equanimity with which the damage to the actual victims of that viscous cult is whitewashed by some people. And then they wonder why I don't just make it easy on everyone and focus on Rajneesh's pretty, hollow words, instead of on his crimes and insanity :facepalm:

addition Salmonella can cause health problems years after the initial infection has gone away. So there may be people still suffering from what Rajneesh and his bunch did.


The germs that caused it may affect you long after you supposedly recovered -- in some cases, for years.

In Scientific American's April issue, Maryn McKenna tells the story of 14-year-old Dana Dziadul, who for more than a decade suffered from chronic joint pain. Doctors ultimately determined it was arthritis, caused by a bout of salmonella poisoning Dziadul had contracted more than a decade earlier.

McKenna continues:

Long-term consequences are not limited to individuals who were hospitalized, as Dana was. They have also been recorded in people who experienced what seemed to be minor bouts of fever, vomiting or diarrhea. The consequences include reactive arthritis, urinary tract problems and damage to the eyes after Salmonella and Shigella infections;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/food-poisoning-years-later_n_1408668.html

[Selkie]

...You talk as if Silkie is a person possessed.

Flash did no such thing.

[ulli]

Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

[Flash]

I love Ulli but for once, I do not agree with your statement.

If someone has to work to help victims of a cult, or any agression, because of their own experience, they may be much more effective, in my views, once the upset/PTSD is worked through. Sometimes being told to let go just allows one to Wake up and get to act more efficiently, Plus it often help the body as well, when letting go. This does not mean not remembering, or denying. It means ending the anger/emotional process with whatever mean necessary. But memory does remain, it is why one can act for others and help.

Now, genuine exposure of misdeeds should never be censored, this I fully agree. Otherwise we are playing the same game as Cabal is.


Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

[Selkie]

Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

Thank you for this, Ulli.

Yes. Letting go is something that happens in its own time. It is not something that can be forced...not by anybody. I am not talking about cults and gurus and psychopaths from an armchair, after all, and if people want to see that as "having issues", well, :noidea:

And btw, everything I have written here about Rajneesh and his cult has been to show why I think he was not targeted. He was not targeted at all, as much as some wish he had been. No. He self-destructed. Eyewitness testimony makes that clear, as several links on this thread show.

[ulli]

I love Ulli but for once, I do not agree with your statement.

If someone has to work to help victims of a cult, or any agression, because of their own experience, they may be much more effective, in my views, once the upset/PTSD is worked through. Sometimes being told to let go just allows one to Wake up and get to act more efficiently, Plus it often help the body as well, when letting go. This does not mean not remembering, or denying. It means ending the anger/emotional process with whatever mean necessary. But memory does remain, it is why one can act for others and help.

Now, genuine exposure of misdeeds should never be censored, this I fully agree. Otherwise we are playing the same game as Cabal is.


Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

It's ok to differ. I used to tell people what they needed to do, but as an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.
It's hardly ever an effective tool.

I rather offer a menu of options. Less judgmental.
How can anyone ever know at what point of development another finds themselves?
These points shift and change, like sands.

[Delight]

Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

Thank you for this, Ulli.

Yes. Letting go is something that happens in its own time. It is not something that can be forced...not by anybody. I am not talking about cults and gurus and psychopaths from an armchair, after all, and if people want to see that as "having issues", well, :noidea:

And btw, everything I have written here about Rajneesh and his cult has been to show why I think he was not targeted. He was not targeted at all, as much as some wish he had been. No. He self-destructed. Eyewitness testimony makes that clear, as several links on this thread show.

I don't know about any one else, but I was raised in the "normal narcissistic" milieu where I was physically punished for being angry among other insults to my autonomy as a being. The hairbrush came out when I fought with my brother. No one but the chief narcissist was allowed to express herself unless it was pleasant.

As Silkie pointed out other places about the narcissist cult, we (in the family)were only valuable as supply for the narcissist. The members of any cult group are only fuel for the organization. What does that say about legacies of these groups??? How can you get a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

In the case of a cult, the supply rendered by "followers" is apologetic defense for all abuse. "OH Yes, I (we, they) MUST have meant well". Otherwise one would have to get righteously angry at the facts. Look at scientology and the willingness for members to go to the hole. One can also be buying in to the leader's worth and value with buying books and perhaps, the megalomaniacal energy that STARTED in the person can then become an independent entity which could persist for generations selling the "ideas"? That is perhaps religion and its designated lineage of ordained mouth piece.

[Selkie]

...an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.

Yes, and although I know they mean well, Flash and the others who have presumed to advise me to "let it go" in one way or another are not therapists. And they certainly are not my therapists.

But I do want to thank you, Flash, for the expression of affection you gave me. It means a lot to me that you and others care. It really does.

[Delight]

...an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.

Yes, and although I know they mean well, Flash and the others who have presumed to advise me to "let it go" in one way or another are not therapists. And they certainly are not my therapists.

But I do want to thank you, Flash, for the expression of affection you gave me. It means a lot to me that you and others care. It really does.

One point I would like to make regarding the extreme of pro and anti....they do both support a structure like the extremes of a rocking chair back and forth.

I do not pretend to know what to "do"about the (IMO) righteous anger that stems form intimate contact with "force". IMO this "force" exists within the human. It is a survival mechanism seeking for itself. Some call it alien. I dunno. it seems like some inbred aspect we are asking ourselves to learn to live without.

I consider my beliefs about this to be my own. One is asking to learn to be greater than this primitive self serving energy we have used. I say we ALL have been there done that. I seek to repent. That means something to me....

To survive, the force seeks total control and learns manipulative strategy. It can be ameliorated by "law" but unless we ourselves can manage to be greater than this force, IMO we will flip flop within its hold.

Wimps flopping in the hands of tyrants flip as soon as possible to tyrannical. I have even seen this in my mild mannered brother who married someone he dominates completely "with love". I doubt she has ever talked back once...another family managed in controlled ways for "normalcy".

The way we grow up in these homes not only confuses the living day lights out of one's reason but has the innate trajectory to fit us well into the larger cults.
I do not know what to do but I am not yet willing to let go of my concern. It was hurt that started me thinking something is ready to pop and we can release the binding allegiance to the narcissistic culture we hold so dear. If you think I am facetious, I am not.
It lurks everywhere two or more are gathered
It calls itself crazy wisdom's "truth"
and within the shadow world it may be?

Edit

I invoked "crazy wisdom" coined by a cult leader. The IMO foill of "why is the booby prize" discourages independent seeking. Seekers are not finders the adage goes so don't bother...just be what we say you already are....and be still.... and don't look behind the curtain because the curtain is swell...all sorts of discouagement.

IMO it is ONLY our own seeking that counts. Again this is my idea. But this is IMO the whole point...OUR seeking has to be the original one for us.

This quote suggests that we will never have the answer to our questions and so don't go there


In his book "Crazy wisdom", the Tibetan tülku Chögyam Trungpa describes the phenomenon as a process of spiritual discovery:

Instead we explore further and further and further without looking for an answer. [...] We don't make a big point or an answer out of any one thing. For example, we might think that because we have discovered one particular thing that is wrong with us, that must be it, that must be the problem, that must be the answer. No. We don't fixate on that, we go further. "Why is that the case?" We look further and further. We ask: "Why is this so?" Why is there spirituality? Why is there awakening? Why is there this moment of relief? Why is there such a thing as discovering the pleasure of spirituality? Why, why, why?" We go on deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, until we reach the point where there is no answer. [...] At that point we tend to give up hope of an answer, or of anything whatsoever, for that matter. [...] This hopelessness is the essence of crazy wisdom. It is hopeless, utterly hopeless.[3]

I say "Is this really true?" unless we have agreed. What if within me and MY searching, a really fine answer is discovered FOR me. BUt sitting at the foot of a guide will often be the end of questions. OH, that is only assuming it was not brow and butt beat out of one before 14 years old....

[greybeard]

This may be off topic but when I went to AA at first I had to tell my story over and over to get rid of the hurt and there was some justification for the pain I felt, caused by another--not imagined.

Eventually I realised that I no longer had to tell the story--I was free of it--eventually I completely forgave the other---I had to be ready to do that.
I became a therapist in order to help others and to clear some remaining crap in me---in time I found some spiritual teachings from various teacher which are helpful to this day. The mind is now quiet and I am at peace--still work to be done but no one has pushed or pulled me to do anything.

The teaching of Eckhart Tolle and now Mooji are more helpful to me than any therapy but I certainly do not discount them--they played their part and without AA I would not be alive

The AA Serenity Prayer sees me through any challenges. .

"God grant me the serenity
To Accept the things I can not change
Courage to change the things I can
Wisdom to know the difference."

Chris

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."


Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring :)


Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=975314&viewfull=1#post975314

[Selkie]

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."


Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring :)


Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=975314&viewfull=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."


Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring :)


Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=975314&viewfull=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

That there may be something in there that may be of interest. Take it or leave it

[Selkie]

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."


Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring :)


Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=975314&viewfull=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

That there may be something in there that may be of interest. Take it or leave it

Thanks for sharing. I know you mean well.

[Hervé]

How about that topic...


:focus:

[Selkie]

How about that topic...


:focus:

Thank you!

[Michel Leclerc]

...I guess we are all psychopaths.

No, we are not. They are a very specific group, about 1% of the general population. Do a search. You will find tons of info. There are lots of links just in this thread where you can start to learn about them.

Dear Silkie, thank you for your concern, but I mind a little bit the condescending tone.

My remark about the term "psychopath" was inspired by the fact that I think it is an unnecessary term.

It belongs in American psychiatric textbooks and their judicial use. This judicial use has not a very good reputation, considering that it is being used in a culture with a high incidence of internecine as well as "outward-directed" violence.

In European, non-Anglo-saxon cultures it is not used that much unless as a reference to the American context which of course a certain number of Anglo-Saxon culture dominated psychiatrists are fond of doing.

Non-Anglo-Saxon-culture-brainwashed psychoanalysts (notice my using another term) belonging to Freudian or Lacanian or "anti-psychiatric" schools tend to be very cautious with using it, except in the very general sense I described, suscribe to and label myself with (kindly inviting you all to accept the label).

However, persons of the Anglo-Saxon persuasion have long since adopted the term in common language, meaning something like (as I ironically said quoting our beloved leader George W. or was it our beloved leader Donald R.) "rotten apple", or, if you prefer: "mass murderer".

It seems to me that one should be cautious with labeling people with this term, especially as it is too readily available and "useful" in a social context gleefully prone to scapegoating.

I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Using the blanket term "psychopath" does not help, and using the psychiatric textbook term "psychopath" does not help either.

This being said, I am obviously interested in learning facts about his life and writings, and thankful for your incentive to do so.

[Flash]

Michel, tu as tort:p

Psychopaths is certainly not used in Canada or the Commonwealth countries for its meaning in the judicial system. Since we almost do not sue here. Yet, the term is used to describe either someone who is a serial killer, or someone who has no empathy, does not care for others and does not understand why one should care. It is used in its true meaning. The description and cause are the same, may it be a serial killer or a corporate psychopath. The brain structures are the same as well.

And to be able to understand what we are talking about, a description or word is needed - otherwise we are talking of non existent things. Which was naively believed by most for centuries, that psychopathy was non existent, since it could not be described and pinned down with a simple word.

I have rarely seen the term psychopath used in daily living, it is not a blanket term, at least not in Canada, French or English. But yes, it is more and more used for some of the 1%, justifiably I think.




...I guess we are all psychopaths.

No, we are not. They are a very specific group, about 1% of the general population. Do a search. You will find tons of info. There are lots of links just in this thread where you can start to learn about them.

Dear Silkie, thank you for your concern, but I mind a little bit the condescending tone.

My remark about the term "psychopath" was inspired by the fact that I think it is an unnecessary term.

It belongs in American psychiatric textbooks and their judicial use. This judicial use has not a very good reputation, considering that it is being used in a culture with a high incidence of internecine as well as "outward-directed" violence.

In European, non-Anglo-saxon cultures it is not used that much unless as a reference to the American context which of course a certain number of Anglo-Saxon culture dominated psychiatrists are fond of doing.

Non-Anglo-Saxon-culture-brainwashed psychoanalysts (notice my using another term) belonging to Freudian or Lacanian or "anti-psychiatric" schools tend to be very cautious with using it, except in the very general sense I described, suscribe to and label myself with (kindly inviting you all to accept the label).

However, persons of the Anglo-Saxon persuasion have long since adopted the term in common language, meaning something like (as I ironically said quoting our beloved leader George W. or was it our beloved leader Donald R.) "rotten apple", or, if you prefer: "mass murderer".

It seems to me that one should be cautious with labeling people with this term, especially as it is too readily available and "useful" in a social context gleefully prone to scapegoating.

I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Using the blanket term "psychopath" does not help, and using the psychiatric textbook term "psychopath" does not help either.

This being said, I am obviously interested in learning facts about his life and writings, and thankful for your incentive to do so.

[Michel Leclerc]

You re-quote, as an argument, for some form of -pathy, Silkie, the following snippet:

I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona

I have explored Tantra, to be more precise: "left-hand" Tantra. To the non-initiate observer, Tantra may appear to be about "group sex". This is however definitely not the case: it amounts to saying that areoplane building is about screwdriving.

Assuming that the author means that the "few sannyasin girls" were hurt by their experiences, the phrasing of the argument ("I get e-mails every year") is one which does not even begin to try and understand what Tantra is about. It is fast re-labeled "group sex" and then that is transformed into a point of accusation (with the "obviously" innuendo conspicuous).

This is not a very sane or sound argument: it tells more about the person using it than about the reality that has been reframed.

I obviously agree that any serious spiritual work, especially when involving sexuality, should be consensual. But establishing this, in this context, and post factum, would be difficult in judicial or therapeutic contexts – so how can we get to the truth?

[Selkie]

You re-quote, as an argument, for some form of -pathy, Silkie, the following snippet:

I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona

I have explored Tantra, to be more precise: "left-hand" Tantra. To the non-initiate observer, Tantra may appear to be about "group sex". This is however definitely not the case: it amounts to saying that areoplane building is about screwdriving.

Assuming that the author means that the "few sannyasin girls" were hurt by their experiences, the phrasing of the argument ("I get e-mails every year") is one which does not even begin to try and understand what Tantra is about. It is fast re-labeled "group sex" and then that is transformed into a point of accusation (with the "obviously" innuendo conspicuous).

This is not a very sane or sound argument: it tells more about the person using it than about the reality that has been reframed.

I obviously agree that any serious spiritual work, especially when involving sexuality, should be consensual. But establishing this, in this context, and post factum, would be difficult in judicial or therapeutic contexts – so how can we get to the truth?

Taken in context with what is known about the group (the rapes, physical abuse, and poisoning of followers), I think it is pretty safe to assume that those girls probably did not have good experiences. From the wording and tone of the author, it is quite plain that she did not think so, either.

[greybeard]

The thread is not about Silkie, her opinions I respect even though I don't agree with them.
Everyone has the right to think what they want and find evidence to support their view point.
No doubt much evidence can be found to counter virtually any position.

ACIM says

"When you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion"

The less people identify, judge and label the more chance of waking up to our own reality.
That's freedom
That's what Osho pointed to. It may have got him killed.
Who really knows? I dont.

Chris

[Selkie]

...I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Rajneesh and his vicious crew poisoned more than 700 people, including a 2-day-old infant and an 87 year old...all to win an election. It was a stroke of pure luck that no one died. So, is the poisoning of 700 people enough, or would you not be happy unless they had actually killed someone? Like that baby, maybe.

[Selkie]

The thread is not about Silkie, her opinions I respect even though I don't agree with them....

Thank you for this, Chris. Thank you very much :)

[Ted]

I think Osho made enough enemies in the end that if he was murdered the list of suspects would be extensive. Also, he didn't say anything that hadn't been said many times before, so why would the government even bother? People don't take kindly to being disenfranchised from their local government, let alone being poisoned. How about the fathers of the girls who came crying home, and the people who lost their life savings? Nope, no lack of enemies.

[Selkie]

I think Osho made enough enemies in the end that if he was murdered the list of suspects would be extensive. Also, he didn't say anything that hadn't been said many times before, so why would the government even bother? People don't take kindly to being disenfranchised from their local government, let alone being poisoned. How about the fathers of the girls who came crying home, and the people who lost their life savings? Nope, no lack of enemies.

Yes, and weirdly, during his Poona days, someone, a follower I believe, attempted to murder Rajneesh because he thought Rajneesh was a CIA agent**. So yes, no lack of enemies...not to mention that Rajneesh was his own worst enemy. All in all, Rajneesh strikes me as an extremely unhappy man. All the drug abuse points to it. It is very sad that such a brilliant man hated himself and the world and life so much.

** The link is in this thread somewhere.

[loveoflife]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho. Most of it is exaggerated gossip. While the thread has been derailed and trolled and the OP post ignored.

These people obviously know nothing of the mans teachings and have obviously no experience of sanyassins, or if they do it must be the rare negative and extreme cases.

[Heart-2-Heart]

Loveoflife.... I totally agree

H2H

[Ted]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho. Most of it is exaggerated gossip. While the thread has been derailed and trolled and the OP post ignored.

These people obviously know nothing of the mans teachings and have obviously no experience of sanyassins, or if they do it must be the rare negative and extreme cases.

Betrayal tends to leave deep scars.
It sounds like you may of had some experience with this organization. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

[Hervé]

Oh, well, I guess that, in this case, this "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails)" could be renamed "When A Guru Turns Out To Be A Dirty Scoundrel"


Belief disconfirmation paradigm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm)
Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#cite_note-3)

[Ted]

Oh, well, I guess that, in this case, this "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails)" could be renamed "When A Guru Turns Out To Be A Dirty Scoundrel"


Belief disconfirmation paradigm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm)
Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#cite_note-3)That could be expanded to include all "leaders". Allowing oneself to be lead by fallible beings invariably ends in disappointment.
Our own road is obscure and confusing at times, but staying on it will save a lot of heartache and pain.

[Selkie]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho. Most of it is exaggerated gossip. While the thread has been derailed and trolled and the OP post ignored.

These people obviously know nothing of the mans teachings and have obviously no experience of sanyassins, or if they do it must be the rare negative and extreme cases.

Are you, or have you been, a member of Rajneesh's cult, or any cult?

Btw, I have watched Rajneesh on Youtube.

And I have been in a cult, although not Rajneesh's cult.

addition In fact, whether people leave a cult on their own or are thrown out, they mostly have problems. Negative experiences are not rare, but they can be extreme depending on the brutality of the cult and how abusive it is.

[Selkie]

Oh, well, I guess that, in this case, this "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails)" could be renamed "When A Guru Turns Out To Be A Dirty Scoundrel"


Belief disconfirmation paradigm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm)
Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#cite_note-3)

You know what P.T. Barnum said...

[Selkie]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...

Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?

[loveoflife]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...

Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?


I refuse to be drawn into a pointless argument with you, it serves no purpose other than to feed ego. I can see from your posts that you are opinionated and bigoted in your stance and that you are not going to change that.

I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events. Though i will not waste my time as its obvious that you will vehemently oppose anything that i say. I have noticed that those who oppose Osho are much more vociferous than those who use his teachings and put them to practical use.

I have looked into enlightenment on which Osho talks voluminously a phenomenon that is unfamiliar to western spiritual traditions.

I have also looked into the events surrounding Osho and his life. There have been and still are many negative consequences to look at, there are also many positive that i notice you blatantly ignore. Maybe this is because of your previous experiences of being brainwashed by a cult and you are projecting the effect of your traumatising experiences on other groups of which you have no experience, lumping them all in together. This is a solipsistic reasoning of one experience fits all.

It is true that cults do have similar modus operandi, though there there are also many differences, depending on philosophies and cultural differences. There are also some groups who are not cults and have been tarred with the same brush by the witch hunters.

I am also aware that Sheela ran the commune/city in Oregon as a cult and used many underhand methods to achieve her goals, though when discovered and convicted these activities stopped and the organisation around Osho was disbanded or collapsed, whichever you prefer. All that remains today are various independent centres inspired by him that may or may not bear his Name. They have no central governing authority, they are all that is left of that organisation/cult. These centres usually focus on alternative therapies for personal growth and development. There are of course the many books and videos of his discourses, which to me are what is important and more worthy of discussion, not the many mistakes made in the past. All spiritual teachers will be exploited for gain and if possible their message corrupted, it is the empowering message of who we are as spiritual beings that is central to the conspiracy that seek to keep us in ignorance as to who we essentially are.


I was also involved in a religious cult and raised a catholic so i know how they function, i was able to to deprogram myself with the rebellious teachings of Osho, certain therapies and other enlightened masters teachings in which i found coherence. Through them i was able to understand the nature of mind and how to let go. Something that you do not seem to have done as attraction and repulsion are the same they are polarities of the same energy, a form of obsession/possession/addiction.

Are you as fanatically opposed to cults as you were when involved with one?

I found that cults instill in their followers a fanatical adherence to belief. This was certainly an issue of mine that i had to let go of and work on.

Neither am i in any dissonance around Osho i have heard all the tales good and bad and the arguments for and against. I have heard about his use of nitrous oxide towards the end as he approached a painful death as a result of being poisoned, which you deny, so there is no need to go there.

I have no need for those who have helped me and still do to be perfect masters, we are all humans here with similar fallibility. I have projected a state perfection on Gurus in the past basically because they asked me to, all that did was to distance me more from who i am, Osho never asked this of anyone.

I am very grateful to this man Osho and his message, he was pivotal in my development and helped me to understand how my conditioning from birth was a major influence on belief, the futility of belief and how to let go of it. Though now i have moved on and let him go, maybe its time for you to do the same.

There are many who have been and still are inspired by this man inspite of there being no remaining cult experience to belong to, just the legacy of his discourses and meditations.

He has many quotes full of wisdom, commonsense and rebellion, they are easy to find.



Don't Follow the Leaders - They Are Lost Too

"I can say, 'Come and share me.' That is a totally different standpoint.
"I have known something.
"I have seen something.
"I have lived something.
"And I can share it with you.
"And remember, I am not obliging you when I share it with you..." Osho



“Intelligence is dangerous. Intelligence means you will start thinking on your own; you will start looking around on your own. You will not believe in the scriptures; you will believe only in your own experience.”
― Osho


One thing: you have to walk, and create the way by your walking; you will not find a ready-made path. It is not so cheap, to reach to the ultimate realization of truth. You will have to create the path by walking yourself; the path is not ready-made, lying there and waiting for you. It is just like the sky: the birds fly, but they don't leave any footprints. You cannot follow them; there are no footprints left behind.”
― Osho


“First thing: There is no need to survive in this world. This world is a madhouse. There is no need to survive in it. There is no need to survive in the world of ambition, politics, ego. It is the disease. But there is another way to be, and the whole religious standpoint is: You can be in this world and not be of it. “When I listen to my feelings, my inner voice, they tell me to do nothing.…” Then don’t do anything. There is nobody higher than you, and God speaks to you directly. Start trusting your inner feelings. Then don’t do anything. If you feel just to sleep, eat, and play on the beach, perfect. Let that be your religion. Don’t be afraid then. You will have to drop fear. And if it is a question of choosing between the inner feeling and the fear, choose the inner feeling. Don’t choose the fear. So many people have chosen their path out of fear, so they live in a limbo, they live in indecision. Fear is not going to help. Fear always means the fear of the unknown. Fear always means the fear of death. Fear always means the fear of being lost—but if you really want to be alive, you have to accept the possibility of being lost. You have to accept the insecurity of the unknown, the discomfort and the inconvenience of the unfamiliar, the strange. That is the price one has to pay for the blessing that follows it, and nothing can be achieved without paying for it. You have to pay for it: Otherwise you will remain fear-paralyzed. Your whole life will be lost. Enjoy whatsoever your inner feeling is.”
― Osho, Living on Your Own Terms: What Is Real Rebellion?


What do these quotes say about Buddhism?


"Osho is an enlightened master who is working with all possibilities to help humanity overcome a difficult phase in developing consciousness."

- The Dalai Lama, exiled leader of Tibet


"Osho is the greatest incarnation after Buddha in India. He is a living Buddha."

- Lama Karmapa, late head of the Kargyupta, (or Red Hat) Sect of Tibetan Buddhism

I like this one Osho in a nutshell.


"Osho is one of the greatest mystics of all times who has a tremendous spiritual power to go into such a variety of subjects including Geeta, Nanak, Meera, Kabir, Sufism, Tantra, Yoga and Zen. He has given a new vision and direction to humanity."

- Pandit Shiv Kumar Sharma, world renowned santoor player

[loveoflife]

Oh, well, I guess that, in this case, this "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails)" could be renamed "When A Guru Turns Out To Be A Dirty Scoundrel"


Belief disconfirmation paradigm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm)
Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#cite_note-3)

This works both ways with those for or against.

I am aware that i am subject to cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and motivated reasoning (http://whywereason.com/2011/09/07/psychologys-treacherous-trio-confirmation-bias-cognitive-dissonance-and-motivated-reasoning/). I do no claim to be free from them, as with many things i find than awareness and acceptance is the best i can achieve for now.

[loveoflife]

Has anybody noticed that David Icke has quoted Osho at the last two Wembley Arena events, what does that say about him?

[Selkie]

...I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events.

Were you there for the actual events? I don't think so. So no wonder you resort to calling me names.



...I can see from your posts that you are...bigoted..


...Silkie is a person possessed.



Yup, spoken just like someone who has "let go" :facepalm:

Rajneesh's "teachings" are his public persona, nothing more. His cult was a madhouse of abuse, rape and poisonings. This is fact. Not speculation or exaggeration. Fact. He and his cult poisoned more than 700 people. This is also fact. Rajneesh did not die of poisoning in prison. He died of heart disease, probably with valium and nitrous oxide withdrawal as contributing factors. This is also fact.

Some tidbits:


...According to court testimony by Ma Ava (Ava Avalos), a prominent disciple, Sheela played associates a tape-recording of a meeting she had with Osho about the "need to kill people" to strengthen wavering sannyasin resolve to participate in her plots:

"She came back to the meeting and ... began to play the tape. It was a little hard to hear what he was saying ... And the gist of Bhagwan's response, yes, it was going to be necessary to kill people to stay in Oregon. And that actually killing people wasn't such a bad thing.


...he lived "in ostentation and offensive opulence", while his followers (most of whom had severed ties with outside friends and family and donated all—or most—of their money and possessions to the commune) might live at a "subsistence level...

Scholars have suggested that Osho, like other charismatic leaders, may have had a narcissistic personality.[252][253][254] In his paper The Narcissistic Guru: A Profile of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Ronald O. Clarke (Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at Oregon State University) argued that Osho exhibited all the typical features of narcissistic personality disorder: a grandiose sense of self-importance and uniqueness, preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, the need for constant attention and admiration, a set of characteristic responses to threats to self-esteem, disturbances in interpersonal relationships, preoccupation with personal grooming, frequent prevarication (or outright lying) and a lack of empathy.[254]...Osho's self-proclaimed Buddha status, he concluded, was part of a delusional system associated with his narcissistic personality disorder (ego-inflation rather than egolessness).[254]



and finally, to top it all off


...On 30 September 1985, Osho denied that he was a religious teacher;[124] his disciples burned 5,000 copies of the Book of Rajneeshism...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

That last one is really funny :ROFL:

So go ahead and call me names. You cannot change the facts.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Has anybody noticed that David Icke has quoted Osho at the last two Wembley Arena events, what does that say about him?

It says that David Icke does not always check his sources.

[Selkie]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...


Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?



I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events. Though i will not waste my time as its obvious that you will vehemently oppose anything that i say...

When you refuse to supply quotes and examples and links, you deprive EVERYBODY of the chance to decide for themselves, and/or to refute you, not just me, including people who might read this thread in the future, and people who have been harmed by Rajneesh.

[greybeard]

To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"
I believe that Divinity resides within all.
That is not justifying, defending, praising or promoting.

Chris

[Selkie]

To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"...

It doesn't matter where the darkness comes from, Chris. It only matters what the person does with it.

[Delight]

I tried to google the source for the quote from the Dalai Lama and the rest of what might have been said with...."working with all possibilities to help humanity overcome a difficult phase in developing consciousness". I couldn't locate anything except direction to the Osho apologetic websites.

Loveoflife along with other eminent people appreciate Osho from reading his words. I have also liked some of what I have read from the ideas. I found a whole list of quotes of people who like him. He has enough approval ratings and stars from the volumes of his transcribed speeches to prove he is popular. People may, like Loveoflife be applying these words very satisfactorally. They may be so fulfilled they can add Zorba to their names.


EMINENT PERSONS ON OSHO (http://www.oshoworld.com/osho_now/eminent_osho.asp)


"Osho will long be remembered as a great philosopher - saint and mystic of the twentieth century. His life and work will continue to inspire future generations of humankind and his powerful message of essential unity of mankind will help us to evolve a new global code of ethics for the improvement of the human condition."

- Dr. Manmohan Singh, prime minister of India
.............................
"He was the most original thinker that India has produced: the most erudite, the most clear-headed and the most innovative. And in addition he had an inborn gift of words, spoken and written. The like of him we will not see for decades to come..."
"It is a religion for the irreligious, for the agnostic, for the unbeliever, for the rationalist."

- Khushwant Singh, former editor of The Times of India; author and historian


"When we wrote and prepared for shooting Vanilla Sky, I constantly checked in with Osho's insights. It is not so easy to present the unconscious mind with images and a story. Osho is the only one who can perfectly explain it all, the inner and the outer and that helped me and my team immensely"

- Tom Cruise, actor


"Never before or after have I encountered anybody having such a harmonious and immensely creative view encompassing art, science, human psychology and religiousness. Certainly we would lack substantially without his vision of the new man."

- Dr. A. Schleger, Ph.D., Institute of Technology, Switzerland


"Osho is a mystical giant, a flowering of a unique intelligence and one of those rare humans ex-pressing himself with joy."

- Paul Reps, author of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones


"Enlightened people like Osho are ahead of their times. It is good that more and more young people are now reading his works."

- K. R. Narayanan, former president of India

and many more

This weirdness of how what people say is all so important to history and what legacies of how they lived so unimportant is curious. I am really thinking about this public versus private aspect of a person. I see that as soon as a person starts trying to "help" others, a certain faction of helpees will gather. The helper is entertaining the needs of the audience.

A crowd of people project their hopes and fears onto a person. That whole phenomenon seems unavoidable because it is the nature of the entertainment audience and entertainer. The appearance that many people have literally gone insane sometime after reaching fame is repeatedly observed. Does the impulse to seek fame lead to the existential desert where one's ego could so easily be inflated that it was mythologized by the story of Jesus going into the wilderness for 40 days.

AND the other myth that when the gods wish to crush someone, they first raise him up. I think this may all represent a human existential drama cycle to pass. One cannot NEED an ego in the void. So one must be able to avoid ego inflation up and deflation down.... IMO our own aspect of egoic need for judging approval ratings is tested.

To be perverted by glittering delusions of grandeur invited by sharing the light of their being in a way that attracts attention is a fail.

IF others place a being on a pedestal and this is a nothing, and IF the being withstands the fall off the pedestal that is an equal and opposite reaction, the Daimon of the inner says BRAVO BRAVO to the experience in question.

WHEN a being can withstand the intense pressures set up to fail, S(He) is free of persuasion.

So going along with all my other beliefs, compassion for the being called Osho is easy. I will be there, do that too OR have been there done that too. Such will happen in the world of dual expressions and form.

So, back to OSHO, he is not really mine to judge, yet, his EXAMPLE of how he lived holds much more valuable info than any of his words.....So thanks Osho. I am grateful. His energy signature teaches me something valuable if I can empathize.

[Selkie]

...yet, his EXAMPLE of how he lived holds much more valuable info than any of his words.....

Indeed it does.


So thanks Osho. I am grateful. His energy signature teaches me something valuable if I can empathize.

Sublime :)

[greybeard]

To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"...

It doesn't matter where the darkness comes from, Chris. It only matters what the person does with it.

Yes but but but--you have not included my full post--which changes the context.

Basically in duality we are given the opportunity to forgive the seeming other for horrendous acts or not as the case might be.
Without some one suffering there would be no compassion.
Out with duality its a different thing all together.
If it can be accepted, just perhaps, as in an Eckhart Tolle quote
"There never was anyone there to do anything to you."
That takes one hell of a lot of believing.

My belief is that there is only one consciousness.
In duality consciousness is restricted, so another Tolle quote
"Consciousness is evolving to know it self"

The more people that begin to at least think that its possible that there is such a thing as non-duality the better---we will have an evolved consciousness and evil acts will automatically fall away.
In duality because the other is believed to be a fact then ego is in control--My way or no way--You are either for or against me.
That is the cause of all friction, war etc

In non-duality there is only "One without a second" The God within "you" is identical to the God within "me"---knowing that how can anyone hurt another intentionally.

Chris

[Delight]

To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"...

It doesn't matter where the darkness comes from, Chris. It only matters what the person does with it.

I was writing a post at the same time this was written. Yes, this is important! It matters (becomes physically apparent) that we are ACTING out the polarity of light and light's absence. What is gained and what is lost by our own actions will be apparent only to us individually when we face ourselves. If we face ourselves and love ourselves and repent of manipulating the outer in favor of developing the inner connection with SELF, we then will likely be finished with ego.

This is IMO POSSIBLY the most important realization of being a player in form in this shadowy world.... that we have an exercise of such a mastery of conditions. SO, to the OP,

Who targeted Osho?
Was OSHO murdered at all?

My answer, he targeted himself and murder is only what we can do to ourselves. Death of a body is not murder. Can we murder our beingness? No, I do not accept this is possible. We can miss the opportunity we asked to experience as a Master who tasted cosmic consciousness. This is like the final act in a play.

That is perhaps why we rewrite and repeat the performance???

[Selkie]

To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"...

It doesn't matter where the darkness comes from, Chris. It only matters what the person does with it.

Yes but but but--you have not included my full post--which changes the context.

Basically in duality we are given the opportunity to forgive the seeming other for horrendous acts or not as the case might be.
Without some one suffering there would be no compassion.
Out with duality its a different thing all together.
If it can be accepted, just perhaps, as in an Eckhart Tolle quote
"There never was anyone there to do anything to you."
That takes one hell of a lot of believing.

My belief is that there is only one consciousness.
In duality consciousness is restricted, so another Tolle quote
"Consciousness is evolving to know it self"

The more people that begin to at least think that its possible that there is such a thing as non-duality the better---we will have an evolved consciousness and evil acts will automatically fall away.
In duality because the other is believed to be a fact then ego is in control--My way or no way--You are either for or against me.
That is the cause of all friction, war etc

In non-duality there is only "One without a second" The God within "you" is identical to the God within "me"---knowing that how can anyone hurt another intentionally.

Chris


To put a different context on it
Yogananda said "The darkness comes from the same place as the light"
I believe that Divinity resides within all.
That is not justifying, defending, praising or promoting.

Chris

To which I replied


It doesn't matter where the darkness comes from, Chris. It only matters what the person does with it.

Yes, I left this out


I believe that Divinity resides within all.
That is not justifying, defending, praising or promoting.

because what in the world do your personal beliefs about a divinity within and the evolution of consciousness , no matter how beautiful or beautifully expressed, have to do with the incontrovertible fact that Chandra Mohan Jain, other wise known as Rajneesh, together with his followers, poisoned more than 700 people in an attempt to win an election that would have given them dictatorship over a town? That poisoning was intentional and pre-meditated. They had a bioweapons lab, for heaven's sake!


Dr. Skeels found glass vials containing salmonella "bactrol disks" in the laboratory of a Rajneeshpuram medical clinic.[15] Analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention lab in Atlanta confirmed that the bacteria at the Rajneesh laboratory were an exact match to those that sickened individuals who had eaten at local restaurants.[15] The investigation also revealed prior experimentation at Rajneeshpuram with poisons, chemicals and bacteria, in 1984 and 1985.[15] Dr. Skeels described the scene at the Rajneesh laboratory as "a bacteriological freezer-dryer for large-scale production" of microbes.[20] Investigators found a copy of The Anarchist Cookbook, and literature on the manufacture and usage of explosives and military bio-warfare.[20] Investigators believed that the commune had previously carried out similar attacks in Salem, Portland, and other cities in Oregon.[15] According to court testimony, the plotters boasted that they had attacked a nursing home and a salad bar at the Mid-Columbia Medical Center, but no such attempts were ever proven in court.[15] As a result of the bioterrorism investigation, law enforcement officials discovered that there had been an aborted plot by Rajneeshees to murder Charles Turner, a former United States Attorney for Oregon.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack



So the Divinity within, whether one believes in it or not, is quite beside the point, and off-topic. You can be non-dual if you want, and talk about the Divinity within all you want, but when the questions are asked: was Rajneesh murdered?, and was he a targeted person?, I say no to both. I have been giving my reasons for thinking so this entire thread.

[loveoflife]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...


Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?



I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events. Though i will not waste my time as its obvious that you will vehemently oppose anything that i say...

When you refuse to supply quotes and examples and links, you deprive EVERYBODY of the chance to decide for themselves, and/or to refute you, not just me, including people who might read this thread in the future, and people who have been harmed by Rajneesh.

I have made my reasons quite clear, and i have no intention to repeat myself as you do.

It does appear that you have a habit of quoting people out of context. This is one thing about what you post that will be apparent to future readers of this thread.


Its obvious that whatever i post here will be met with a negative and out of context reaction from you.

I am not denying what happened at Rajnesshpuram, what i am saying is that you take those events like what other posters say out of context. Your vision is blinkered, IMO you are missing the bigger picture both factual and philosophical.

It is obvious that your intention is to dominate this thread and take it off topic into your personal vendetta against cults and Osho in particular.

I will wait for you to quote this post out of context.

[Selkie]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...


Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?



I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events. Though i will not waste my time as its obvious that you will vehemently oppose anything that i say...

When you refuse to supply quotes and examples and links, you deprive EVERYBODY of the chance to decide for themselves, and/or to refute you, not just me, including people who might read this thread in the future, and people who have been harmed by Rajneesh.

I have made my reasons quite clear, and i have no intention to repeat myself as you do.

It does appear that you have a habit of quoting people out of context. This is one thing about what you post that will be apparent to future readers of this thread.


Its obvious that whatever i post here will be met with a negative and out of context reaction from you.

I am not denying what happened at Rajnesshpuram, what i am saying is that you take those events like what other posters say out of context. Your vision is blinkered, IMO you are missing the bigger picture both factual and philosophical.

It is obvious that your intention is to dominate this thread and take it off topic into your personal vendetta against cults and Osho in particular.

I will wait for you to quote this post out of context.

This is the OP

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83389-Was-Osho-Murdered-Was-Osho-a-Targeted-Individual&p=975541&viewfull=1#post975541

and anyone can see that my posts, far from leading this thread off-topic, have continually replied directly to it. I cannot help it if I have had to answer posts that have been directed at me, personally; posts that had nothing to do with the OP and that were directed at me and my supposed personal shortcomings. You, yourself, have called me names, and tried to prejudice people against me. And now you are trying to prejudice them again, with the last sentence of your post, above, taking the thread off-topic again by directing peeps attention to me :facepalm:

So, long story short, this thread is not about the "bigger picture"! Peeps talking about the "bigger picture" is exactly what has been taking this thread off-topic, and now, you are trying to do it again. You keep saying that you have "facts" about this topic, and yet you refuse to provide them or links to them. What, are we supposed to just take your word for things? I don't think so. So again, I challenge you to provide these facts that you say you have, along with links so that peeps can check them out for themselves.

And about quoting people out of context, I do no such thing. When I quote another poster, I often snip the contents, but I always provide searchable links, so that peeps can click on the quote and see the context for themselves. This is standard practice on this forum and it is something that everyone does, even the mods.

[ulli]

There is so much nonsense, unfounded speculation and downright lies on this thread that say more about the mentality of the posters than about Osho...


Could you quote some examples, so that people may refute you or expand upon what they meant, if they choose?



I can counter most of what has been said on this thread as lies and exaggerations and speculations around actual events. Though i will not waste my time as its obvious that you will vehemently oppose anything that i say...

When you refuse to supply quotes and examples and links, you deprive EVERYBODY of the chance to decide for themselves, and/or to refute you, not just me, including people who might read this thread in the future, and people who have been harmed by Rajneesh.

I have made my reasons quite clear, and i have no intention to repeat myself as you do.

It does appear that you have a habit of quoting people out of context. This is one thing about what you post that will be apparent to future readers of this thread.


Its obvious that whatever i post here will be met with a negative and out of context reaction from you.

I am not denying what happened at Rajnesshpuram, what i am saying is that you take those events like what other posters say out of context. Your vision is blinkered, IMO you are missing the bigger picture both factual and philosophical.

It is obvious that your intention is to dominate this thread and take it off topic into your personal vendetta against cults and Osho in particular.

I will wait for you to quote this post out of context.

This is the OP

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83389-Was-Osho-Murdered-Was-Osho-a-Targeted-Individual&p=975541&viewfull=1#post975541

and anyone can see that my posts, far from leading this thread off-topic, have continually replied directly to it. I cannot help it if I have had to answer posts that have been directed at me, personally; posts that had nothing to do with the OP and that were directed at me and my supposed personal shortcomings. You, yourself, have called me names, and tried to prejudice people against me. And now you are trying to prejudice them again, with the last sentence of your post, above, taking the thread off-topic again by directing peeps attention to me :facepalm:

So, long story short, this thread is not about the "bigger picture"! Peeps talking about the "bigger picture" is exactly what has been taking this thread off-topic, and now, you are trying to do it again. You keep saying that you have "facts" about this topic, and yet you refuse to provide them or links to them. What, are we supposed to just take your word for things? I don't think so. So again, I challenge you to provide these facts that you say you have, along with links so that peeps can check them out for themselves.

And about quoting people out of context, I do no such thing. When I quote another poster, I often snip the contents, but I always provide searchable links, so that peeps can click on the quote and see the context for themselves. This is standard practice on this forum and it is something that everyone does, even the mods.

This is off- topic, I admit, by I must say that Silkie has taught me quite a lot,
in this thread and others,
about the art of standing one's own ground.
As well as maintaining a cool head while under fire.
As well as being relevant to this 3 D world and its requirements to be specific
and judge real actions rather than clever PR.

If Osho followers remain stuck for all eternity in their feel-good stance
and can never admit that manipulations of the extent his group perpetrated
on their neighbors are despicable then I see little hope for the world they wish to create.
Reminded of a nearly forgotten phrase here:
"By their fruits shall you know them."

The best part of Osho's teachings is what he stole from others.
Baha'u'llah stated a century before him: "Be loving and kind with everyone, but be merciless with the clergy."
He never owned a single car, nor horse, but suffered exile, torture and imprisonment for forty years,
Until the end of his life in 1892.

[loveoflife]

So again, I challenge you to provide these facts that you say you have, along with links so that peeps can check them out for themselves.


Thats fighting talk.


Heaven's Tao does not contend But prevails, Does not speak, But responds, Is not summoned, But arrives, Is utterly still, But plans all actions.

[Selkie]

So again, I challenge you to provide these facts that you say you have, along with links so that peeps can check them out for themselves.


Thats fighting talk.


Heaven's Tao does not contend But prevails, Does not speak, But responds, Is not summoned, But arrives, Is utterly still, But plans all actions.

Will you please provide the facts you keep saying you have, along with links, so that people may read and decide for themselves? Using me as an excuse not to do so is wearing a little thin, and the quote (is it from Rajneesh?), above, is beside the point.

addition The challenge was for you to please provide the facts (with links) that you keep saying you have. It was a call for you to rise to the occasion. I am stunned that you would construe my words as a call to some kind of fight :ROFL:

[Desire]

Silkie.
I like your new look but then I liked the old one too.It's funny that you haven't changed your so called attitute but instead you did change minds.There are many that run
with the croud and change only when they see the tide changing and others that truely make a leap of conscience and some just don't want to go there.I myself have run into
many sociopaths in my life now and as i look back.I have come to recognize their demeanor.Always so friendly ,attempts to make you feel important etc.I now just wait to see
if i am right and then here comes the control pattern and thats when i say goodbye.Ive heard that they love three catagories for a career, politics, religion and police/militaryAs
far as Osho goes he chose religion.
Peace

[Flash]

you forgot business and predominantly banking


Silkie.
I like your new look but then I liked the old one too.It's funny that you haven't changed your so called attitute but instead you did change minds.There are many that run
with the croud and change only when they see the tide changing and others that truely make a leap of conscience and some just don't want to go there.I myself have run into
many sociopaths in my life now and as i look back.I have come to recognize their demeanor.Always so friendly ,attempts to make you feel important etc.I now just wait to see
if i am right and then here comes the control pattern and thats when i say goodbye.Ive heard that they love three catagories for a career, politics, religion and police/militaryAs
far as Osho goes he chose religion.
Peace

[Selkie]

Silkie.
I like your new look but then I liked the old one too.It's funny that you haven't changed your so called attitute but instead you did change minds.There are many that run
with the croud and change only when they see the tide changing and others that truely make a leap of conscience and some just don't want to go there.I myself have run into
many sociopaths in my life now and as i look back.I have come to recognize their demeanor.Always so friendly ,attempts to make you feel important etc.I now just wait to see
if i am right and then here comes the control pattern and thats when i say goodbye.Ive heard that they love three catagories for a career, politics, religion and police/militaryAs
far as Osho goes he chose religion.
Peace

Hi, Desire. I thank you, but I also have to say that my goal was never to change anyone's mind about Rajneesh. My goal was never anything other than to show why I think Rajneesh was neither murdered nor targeted, and that he simply self-destructed.

p.s. When it comes to psychopaths, you are correct about that control pattern.

[Selkie]

I thought this article ought to go here. It confirms everything I have been saying about gurus, irrespective of nationality.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/16/the-strange-deaths-around-india-s-godman.html

[Ted]

I thought this article ought to go here. It confirms everything I have been saying about gurus, irrespective of nationality.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/16/the-strange-deaths-around-india-s-godman.htmlLiquor bootlegger to Godman? It's like Al Capone becoming Billy Graham.

[turiya]

Yes. Osho was targeted. Aside from what you can find of Osho works, most opinionated commentary come from idiot people that have been reading too much mainstream media, which is all negative & is condemning of the man.

Imo, he was the greatest flowering of human intelligence that has ever existed. People have a difficulty in accepting an enlightened individual when that individual is a contemporary. Time has to pass before people will be able to see him for what he was. The same was the case with Jesus, Buddha, George Gurdjieff, Mahavira, Lao Tzu

He was specifically targeted because he was attempting to wake people up. The U.S. CIA was typically involved with the related psyop-killing. Many people here don't have a clue.


Osho's battle was with Ronald Reagan, who even made a personal call to the President of Uruguay, who was willing to give him asylum, to not let him into the country. His organization was made up of some pretty unwholesome people in the end who even tried to take over the local municipality.

Osho talked against all established religions, politicians & those who intended to exploit all humanity. This was the attraction for most of the Westerners that gathered around this man. This is why if you visited the ashram in India, it would have shocked you. An ashram in India, and only 2 percent of the people that were there were Indian? What? Most of the people were Germans. The Germans know how to organize things, created a fresh water supply using a "state of the art" ultraviolet filtering technology system. I know this because I grew alfalfa sprouts for the kitchen there.

The next highest percent of people were Japanese, (that is where I met the woman I am living with). After that were Australians, after than came Americans - then all the rest of the other people of other nations... but only 2 percent were Indians? Most of India is conditioned with various religious doctrines. The politicians didn't care for him. That is why he made the suggestion to transplant the commune to America.

Yes, certainly Ronald Reagan was a politician, but it was his attorney general, Edward Meese, who had created the trumped up criminal immigration charges to arrest Osho, place him in an Oklahoma County jail, expose him to radiation and poison him with Thallium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallium_poisoning).


http://www.politicususa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/EdMeese.jpg?cdn=no
Edward Meese, Reagan Administration Attorney General

"Unwholesome people" - another term no doubt absorbed from MSM. Rajneeshpuram was set up in Oregon. In Oregon is different from the rest of U.S. For instance, there is a law in place where people only need to reside within the state for 30 days in order to become a resident with voting rights. The land that the Oregon commune was set up on was in a desert location near a small town called Antelope. It was owned by the trust.

Osho didn't create any organization.
The people that gathered around the man were intelligent people - attorneys, doctors, PhD-ers, well educated, as well as a number of long-haired hippies. These people formed a trust. Osho never owned anything - not even the diamond studded watch that one American had made for him. It was given to the trust. All Rolls Royces were given to the trust.

The people of Antelope, although businesses flourished, they became quite disturbed as the people that came to the small town to gather supplies were people they were unfamiliar with, things were heating up because the local residences felt they were losing control. To avoid the growing problem with the people of Antelope. The commune trust decided to make the move to create a town of their own. With the voting rights of Oregon, this came to fruition. The people of the commune elected their own mayor, created their own police force... while doing so they transformed that desert of Oregon into an oasis... developed a water system, grew crops, created shops, made clothing, etc., -all in harmony with nature - This also so the people of Antelope would not be bothered.

Nice try, Ulli, but you don't know what you're talking about.

You could attend Osho Commune International to partake in the Sacred Dances that were created by George Gurdjieff. Osho talked highly of all enlightened masters.



I'm not a fan of his, and have never been a member of any cult.

Like I said before, you don't know what you're talking about, the same with you Silke. Repeating wikipedia bs is a far cry from knowing anything.



He may well have become a psychopath after creating such a huge following around him.

He didn't create such a thing - "a huge following around him". The whole thing just 'happened'! The people that were attracted were intelligent & aware individuals. Like attracts like. Those that targeted him were scared, pathetic people. The religious zealots, the insane politicians - they all felt threatened, because this man was waking people up!

Psychopaths have a psychological disorder of their minds. I know it will be difficult for you to understand when I say, "Osho was beyond the mind". Hence, beyond being psychopathic.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41otdEs6P6L._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

For better insight on what happened to Osho & the Rajneeshpuram Commune
Read "My Diamond Days with Osho" by Ma Prem Shunyo.

(http://www.oshonews.com/2011/03/my-diamond-days-with-osho-shunyo/)best regards
turiya


I did not know Osho had died. I have not extensively looked into his material but he did seem like someone with uncommon wisdom. Quite possible he was a target. I do not think Osho was a psy op. Many people who are "Gurus" very well may be psy ops IMHO, but from what I've seen of Osho I saw uncommon wisdom and someone helping humanity.

Upon finding Osho was dead, I researched how he died. I found this from a website linked below:

From 4 October 1987, Osho is seriously ill and nearly dies. On 6 November resuming discourses, Osho discloses that his doctors believe he was poisoned while in the custody of the United States government.
Source: http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography10/10-16-poisoned.txt


Death
Osho breathed his last in the year 1990. It was stated that heart failure was the cause of his death. His physicians hypothesized that he had been poisoned by radiation and thallium in the United States and that he must have slept on his right side on a deliberately irradiated mattress, as his symptoms were concentrated on the right side of his body. However, his followers had no evidence to support the hypothesis.
Source: http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/osho-rajneesh-23.php#Fq97qE8ZSjmsTj2j.99
It saddened me he was dead, and he died when I was 6 years old in 1990. There are so few beacons of Truth and Emissary's of True Spirituality in the world in terms of famous people who many follow the works of. Maybe Osho was terminated? I would not be surprised...

I would love to hear anything else people have to say about this. Especially if anyone knows more about this.

I searched for this and couldn't find it posted. Just a bunch of Osho quotes in the enlightenment thread. If there is an existing thread I'm sorry to create work for mods, plz merge and this will bump it :)

[Delight]

Turiya,
I am really happy that you received something good in your personal experience. You sais:


Osho didn't create any organization.
The people that gathered around the man were intelligent people - attorneys, doctors, PhD-ers, well educated, as well as a number of long-haired hippies. These people formed a trust. Osho never owned anything - not even the diamond studded watch that one American had made for him. It was given to the trust. All Rolls Royces were given to the trust.



Imo, he was the greatest flowering of human intelligence that has ever existed. People have a difficulty in accepting an enlightened individual when that individual is a contemporary. Time has to pass before people will be able to see him for what he was. The same was the case with Jesus, Buddha, George Gurdjieff, Mahavira, Lao Tzu

Maybe so? But also maybe you are a believer.

To you and a few others, it only makes sense that a great man must have been targeted and destroyed. It could just as well be the case that a series of unfortunate choices imploded and led to the demise of the man despite his ideals. Words are words and no amount of good words will repair actions that undermine health.

The way that the Osho episode played out seems in a way to speak of wasted energy people invest in a cause. The consumption triviality of amassing diamond watches and multiple cars is strange to me. It is also strange to me that people who are so intelligent could not just band together and make a trusting community? It is strange to me that anyone would gather people who believe harming others is a way to get one's needs met. All in all, I just do not understand this seeming waste of human endeavor.

[ExomatrixTV]

Osho Lost Millions of Followers When He Became "Bhagwan" (that translates to "GOD"):

5O6acYLXyEs
Osho lost more than half of his followers when he changed his title from Acharya Rajneesh to Bhagwan Rajneesh. Why Osho Called Himself Bhagwan (GOD)? Watch the full video to know everything about it.

Credits:

Script - Ruchi Thalwal
Narration - Akanksha Mishra
Video & Sound Editing - Abhishek Nautiyal