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Guish
27th July 2015, 11:34
Usually, I'd post what I have to say in my best Friends' threads; TH, Chris or Windy. However, this might go against the flow of what they are doing. I find patanjali very concise and to the point. The emphasis is on experiencing consciousness and not just reading and understanding with the rational mind.


Before beginning any spiritual text it is customary to clear the mind of all distracting thoughts, to calm the breath and to purify the heart.

1.1 Now, instruction in Union.

1.2. Union is restraining the thought-streams natural to the mind.

1.3. Then the seer dwells in his own nature.

1.4. Otherwise he is of the same form as the thought-streams.

1.5. The thought-streams are five-fold, painful and not painful.

1.6. Right knowledge, wrong knowledge, fancy, sleep and memory.

1.7. Right knowledge is inference, tradition and genuine cognition.

1.8. Wrong knowledge is false, illusory, erroneous beliefs or notions.

1.9. Fancy is following after word-knowledge empty of substance.

1.10. Deep sleep is the modification of the mind which has for its substratum nothingness.

1.11. Memory is not allowing mental impressions to escape.

1.12. These thought-streams are controlled by practice and non-attachment.

1.13. Practice is the effort to secure steadiness.

1.14. This practice becomes well-grounded when continued with reverent devotion and without interruption over a long period of time.

1.15. Desirelessness towards the seen and the unseen gives the consciousness of mastery.

1.16. This is signified by an indifference to the three attributes, due to knowledge of the Indweller.

1.17. Cognitive meditation is accompanied by reasoning, discrimination, bliss and the sense of 'I am.'

1.18. There is another meditation which is attained by the practice of alert mental suspension until only subtle impressions remain.

1.19. For those beings who are formless and for those beings who are merged in unitive consciousness, the world is the cause.

1.20. For others, clarity is preceded by faith, energy, memory and equalminded contemplation.

1.21. Equalminded contemplation is nearest to those whose desire is most ardent.

1.22. There is further distinction on account of the mild, moderate or intense means employed.

1.23. Or by surrender to God.

1.24. God is a particular yet universal indweller, untouched by afflictions, actions, impressions and their results.

1.25. In God, the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed.

1.26. Not being conditioned by time, God is the teacher of even the ancients.

1.27. God's voice is Om.

1.28. The repetition of Om should be made with an understanding of its meaning.

1.29. From that is gained introspection and also the disappearance of obstacles.

1.30. Disease, inertia, doubt, lack of enthusiasm, laziness, sensuality, mind-wandering, missing the point, instability- these distractions of the mind are the obstacles.

1.31. Pain, despair, nervousness, and disordered inspiration and expiration are co-existent with these obstacles.

1.32. For the prevention of the obstacles, one truth should be practiced constantly.

1.33. By cultivating friendliness towards happiness and compassion towards misery, gladness towards virtue and indifference towards vice, the mind becomes pure.

1.34. Optionally, mental equanimity may be gained by the even expulsion and retention of energy.

1.35. Or activity of the higher senses causes mental steadiness.

1.36. Or the state of sorrowless Light.

1.37. Or the mind taking as an object of concentration those who are freed of compulsion.

1.38. Or depending on the knowledge of dreams and sleep.

1.39. Or by meditation as desired.

1.40. The mastery of one in Union extends from the finest atomic particle to the greatest infinity.

1.41. When the agitations of the mind are under control, the mind becomes like a transparent crystal and has the power of becoming whatever form is presented. knower, act of knowing, or what is known.

1.42. The argumentative condition is the confused mixing of the word, its right meaning, and knowledge.

1.43. When the memory is purified and the mind shines forth as the object alone, it is called non-argumentative.

1.44. In this way the meditative and the ultra-meditative having the subtle for their objects are also described.

1.45. The province of the subtle terminates with pure matter that has no pattern or distinguishing mark.

1.46. These constitute seeded contemplations.

1.47. On attaining the purity of the ultra-meditative state there is the pure flow of spiritual consciousness.

1.48. Therein is the faculty of supreme wisdom.

1.49. The wisdom obtained in the higher states of consciousness is different from that obtained by inference and testimony as it refers to particulars.

1.50. The habitual pattern of thought stands in the way of other impressions.

1.51. With the suppression of even that through the suspension of all modifications of the mind, contemplation without seed is attained.

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 12:44
Patanjali original texts have been misinterpreted by most writers so if one is wanting to get a clearer idea of his message we need the best interpretation possible.
In my experience I would recommend only one and it can be a life long study...this may sound a bit dogmatic...but this is not the case...however it has information in it which not everyone is capable of understanding fully without true esoteric background.

www.bailey.it/images/testi-inglese/The-Light-of-the-Soul.pdf

Guish
27th July 2015, 13:11
Thanks, Ray. I have a book with the Sanskrit texts and I never really went deep enough. However, the texts are real gems. I'm keeping the one you gave me. Thanks brother. Let me quote one extract for readers.

Yogashchittavrittinirodhah.

Possible interpretation: yoga is the stopping of the automatic activity of the brain.

Tara drashtuh svarupe avast hanam

Then our Center shall reveal itself by itself..


Hence, the importance of calming the mind. It's an invite to look into ourselves to unleash our potential. Trainee has been speaking the same words in his thread. What is important here is not having any objectives while doing let's say meditation. I hear so many people say that they want to meditate to to be calm or be more effective or control their anger. Proper meditation is done without setting any goals and just breathing to calm down the mental distortion till we become so empty of thoughts that the true self or drashtar, atman or Center reveals itself.

TraineeHuman
27th July 2015, 14:11
I see Patanjali as having been an extraordinarily brilliant thinker. But true spirituality comes from and in one's direct experience and intuition. To intellectually codify it too much, like I consider Patanjali to do, would be too much like putting it in jail, or into a straitjacket. One needs to leave it plenty of room to breathe. I get the impression Patanjali tried to offer a system, and in good conscience I have no option but to rebel against any attempt to reduce life, the universe and everything to a system. That's in spite of the fact that his system also kind of contradicts itself by saying things like "stop the brain".

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 14:52
Thanks, Ray. I have a book with the Sanskrit texts and I never really went deep enough. However, the texts are real gems. I'm keeping the one you gave me. Thanks brother. Let me quote one extract for readers.

Yogashchittavrittinirodhah.

Possible interpretation: yoga is the stopping of the automatic activity of the brain.

Tara drashtuh svarupe avast hanam

Then our Center shall reveal itself by itself..


Hence, the importance of calming the mind. It's an invite to look into ourselves to unleash our potential. Trainee has been speaking the same words in his thread. What is important here is not having any objectives while doing let's say meditation. I hear so many people say that they want to meditate to to be calm or be more effective or control their anger. Proper meditation is done without setting any goals and just breathing to calm down the mental distortion till we become so empty of thoughts that the true self or drashtar, atman or Center reveals itself.
There is no place where Patanjali ever states that one should 'empty our mind' or "Stop the brain"...this is precisely the point I made about misinterpreting what he has written...in any case we do not think with our brain...so there is nothing to stop.

He speaks of gaining control of ones brain fluctuations...the noise which most people have which prevents them from concentrating on one thing.

He speaks of "seeded" or "seedless" meditation...

Here is a quote from the pdf I posted above:


In this sutra and the following one, Patanjali is enlarging upon an earlier formulation
of the truth. (See Sutra 7.) He teaches that meditation is of two kinds:
1. With an object or seed, and therefore employing the rationalising judicial mind, the
mental body with its concretising faculty, and its ability to create thought forms,
2. Without an object or seedless, and therefore employing a different faculty, and one
which is only possible when the concrete mind is understood, and utilised with
correctness. This correct [Page 95] use involves the ability to "still the modifications
of the mind," reduce the "chitta" or mind stuff to quietude so that it can take on the
colouring of the higher knowledge and reflect the higher realities.
The perceiver has to arrive at a knowledge of subliminal things by the process, first of
all, of awareness of the external form, then a passing beyond the external form to the
internal state of that form, to that which produces externality (being force of some
kind), until he arrives at that which is the cause of both. These three are called in this
sutra:
The idea The cause back of the objective form.
The word The sound which produces form.
The object The form produced by the sound to express the idea.

So if you care to study Raja Yoga more deeply...and Patanjali was the founder of this form of Yoga...Raja meaning mind...You will know that his idea of meditation (Dhyana) is the fixing of the concentrated mind on any aspect of the Divine.

It is also the exact explanation in the Esoterics writings...and blanking out your mind is not recommended at all.

The idea of blanking out ones mind is a spin-off or misinterpretation of the ability to clear the mind of clutter and gain control of it so that it is just the Self and the Object or Idea which we want to meditate about.

In both of these types of meditation...'seeded' or 'unseeded' there is no open blank mind which is just like a house with an open door...anything and anyone can wonder into it...and then must we think that is some high knowledge or state?... most certainly not..

No true Yogi has ever blanked his mind out...there is always an object or idea or concept which exists in the mind which becomes the focus of the meditation.

Those who want to sit and try to blank out their mind...initially will certainly be doing themselves a favor...but that is only because their minds are so cluttered and uncontrollable.

This control of the mental clutter is the first thing I had to learn to do while I served in a Buddhist Retreat Centre...and the Lama we had was able to tell me in my early days even what I was thinking about so in tune he could get with another person. :)

Take care
Ray

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 15:11
The majority of people cannot meditate for one reason only...their minds wonder from one thing to another...and they have no control whatsoever.
The first thing they need to do is to control this wondering and be able to concentrate on one thing...this alone can take months...even years to achieve properly...only then is true meditation possible.

Ray

Johnny
27th July 2015, 16:20
I love Pantanjali :)

Here is an easy way to quiet one's mind: Think at all you know, at the same time !!

It is easy, isn't it ??

Johnny :)

The point is to be aware of what happen, when you try to do it.

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 17:38
I love Pantanjali :)

Here is an easy way to quiet one's mind: Think at all you know, at the same time !!

It is easy, isn't it ??

Johnny :)

The point is to be aware of what happen, when you try to do it.
There is a state known as 'The Eternal Now" where the "individual experiences reality both in the present and in the past, which exists in the “eternal now” or in the aeonic time appearing to the causal self as timelessness" ...however, this is only achievable once the Self has progressed to the Causal World...and we know that timelessness does not exist...it only appears AS timelessness.

The state which a person reaches in meditation itself is always in accordance with the level of consciousness he/she has reached.

A purely physical person...a physicalist...cannot reach high levels beyond the physical and this, concept, applies to everyone...this is so because how would a person with little or no 'spiritual' knowledge even know what to meditate about in these higher levels if he/she has no idea even what the facts are in these worlds.

This is why no Yogi...including Patanjali* has ever reached high levels of consciousness...they are masters in the emotional world and most are even objectively conscious there...which does make them far more advanced than all the western religions and philosophies.

No Yogi or Indian philosophy even mentions the Causal World.

I am not saying in any way that Yogis or Indian philosophy cannot be useful because it is...it is just that they do not reach past very high levels.

Many followers of Indian philosophy believe that Yogis and so called Masters have reached the pinnacle of spiritual development...but this is far from the case...none have even ever reached true Nirvana as did the Buddha...because of misinterpretation of his writings.

Just remember that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything...I am just giving out information for your consideration.

Ray

*In reading this post again I realised I did not qualify this when I just said Patanjali.

I should have said "The Patanjali practitioners of today" this is so because the writings of Patanjali have been misinterpreted to such a degree that the true meanings of some of his writings have been lost...they need to be reinterpreted, using hylozoic terms.

Guish
27th July 2015, 17:58
Thanks, Ray. I have a book with the Sanskrit texts and I never really went deep enough. However, the texts are real gems. I'm keeping the one you gave me. Thanks brother. Let me quote one extract for readers.

Yogashchittavrittinirodhah.

Possible interpretation: yoga is the stopping of the automatic activity of the brain.

Tara drashtuh svarupe avast hanam

Then our Center shall reveal itself by itself..


Hence, the importance of calming the mind. It's an invite to look into ourselves to unleash our potential. Trainee has been speaking the same words in his thread. What is important here is not having any objectives while doing let's say meditation. I hear so many people say that they want to meditate to to be calm or be more effective or control their anger. Proper meditation is done without setting any goals and just breathing to calm down the mental distortion till we become so empty of thoughts that the true self or drashtar, atman or Center reveals itself.
There is no place where Patanjali ever states that one should 'empty our mind' or "Stop the brain"...this is precisely the point I made about misinterpreting what he has written...in any case we do not think with our brain...so there is nothing to stop.

He speaks of gaining control of ones brain fluctuations...the noise which most people have which prevents them from concentrating on one thing.

He speaks of "seeded" or "seedless" meditation...

Here is a quote from the pdf I posted above:


In this sutra and the following one, Patanjali is enlarging upon an earlier formulation
of the truth. (See Sutra 7.) He teaches that meditation is of two kinds:
1. With an object or seed, and therefore employing the rationalising judicial mind, the
mental body with its concretising faculty, and its ability to create thought forms,
2. Without an object or seedless, and therefore employing a different faculty, and one
which is only possible when the concrete mind is understood, and utilised with
correctness. This correct [Page 95] use involves the ability to "still the modifications
of the mind," reduce the "chitta" or mind stuff to quietude so that it can take on the
colouring of the higher knowledge and reflect the higher realities.
The perceiver has to arrive at a knowledge of subliminal things by the process, first of
all, of awareness of the external form, then a passing beyond the external form to the
internal state of that form, to that which produces externality (being force of some
kind), until he arrives at that which is the cause of both. These three are called in this
sutra:
The idea The cause back of the objective form.
The word The sound which produces form.
The object The form produced by the sound to express the idea.

So if you care to study Raja Yoga more deeply...and Patanjali was the founder of this form of Yoga...Raja meaning mind...You will know that his idea of meditation (Dhyana) is the fixing of the concentrated mind on any aspect of the Divine.

It is also the exact explanation in the Esoterics writings...and blanking out your mind is not recommended at all.

The idea of blanking out ones mind is a spin-off or misinterpretation of the ability to clear the mind of clutter and gain control of it so that it is just the Self and the Object or Idea which we want to meditate about.

In both of these types of meditation...'seeded' or 'unseeded' there is no open blank mind which is just like a house with an open door...anything and anyone can wonder into it...and then must we think that is some high knowledge or state?... most certainly not..

No true Yogi has ever blanked his mind out...there is always an object or idea or concept which exists in the mind which becomes the focus of the meditation.

Those who want to sit and try to blank out their mind...initially will certainly be doing themselves a favor...but that is only because their minds are so cluttered and uncontrollable.

This control of the mental clutter is the first thing I had to learn to do while I served in a Buddhist Retreat Centre...and the Lama we had was able to tell me in my early days even what I was thinking about so in tune he could get with another person. :)

Take care
Ray


Hi Ray,

The points reflect what I expererienced too in some ways. This is why I said that there should be no objectives set. One can't meditate with the objective of having a blank mind. It'd just be an illusion experienced. Let me explain my experience with Zazen. As you say, there should be a sort of focus. The focus is on the space between the inhalation and exhalation. Now, during my experience of the Void, the gap between inhalation and exhalation became so big as my breaths slowed down that I was plunged somewhere I didn't need to breathe. No thoughts existed there. I'd not say it was a blank mind as this void seems to be vibrant and full of potential. How does this relate to the reality now? I can have this moment while lecturing a calculus lesson in class. Examples and links would just drop from the nothingness in me. These do not come from subconscious programming as I come up with new things without planning or solve things without logic. TH explained to me that nothingness has a negative meaning in the west but for me it's like this. I'll definitely look into the things you told me. I intend to post the translation of the Sanskrit terms in my next posts so that it's open to interpretation by others. Like you said, we'd look at the same thing but with varying levels of consciousness.

Cheers brother.

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 18:28
Let me explain my experience with Zazen. As you say, there should be a sort of focus. The focus is on the space between the inhalation and exhalation. Now, during my experience of the Void, the gap between inhalation and exhalation became so big as my breaths slowed down that I was plunged somewhere I didn't need to breathe. No thoughts existed there. I'd not say it was a blank mind as this void seems to be vibrant and full of potential. How does this relate to the reality now? I can have this moment while lecturing a calculus lesson in class. Examples and links would just drop from the nothingness in me. These do not come from subconscious programming as I come up with new things without planning or solve things without logic. TH explained to me that nothingness has a negative meaning in the west but for me it's like this. I'll definitely look into the things you told me. I intend to post the translation of the Sanskrit terms in my next posts so that it's open to interpretation by others. Like you said, we'd look at the same thing but with varying levels of consciousness.

Hi Guish
IMO You are probably accessing one of the higher mental levels... which is the world of conceptual thinking. You are a trained thinker if you lecture calculus or higher maths, and it would not be unusual for a person of your focus to be able to bring down from this level new ideas. In these cases these 'things' you come up with and solve would not be from your subconscious...as you have said...but from super-consciousness...you would be a good example of meditation without even sitting cross legged :) ... and I am not joking here when I say that we can even be meditating just walking around...and in your case...your classroom is your zendo...

I have seen some higher mental worlds in meditation and even out of body...and they often appear like fields of geometric shapes. On numerous occasions when I first started off I got to a place where I was hovering in space and before me was a huge eye shaped opening...this opening was in or on a huge plane...which covered the entire space that I was able to 'see'...wherever I 'looked' this plane was present...and there were the most beautiful patterns on this plane...all geometric shapes and almost like a kaleidoscope...when I move through the eye opening I enter into the mental world.

With love brother
Ray

Finefeather
27th July 2015, 18:48
Sorry Guish I just wanted to say one more thing about the gap in your breathing becoming bigger...

This happens when we are in our bodies but our mind moves out into higher planes/worlds...in higher worlds time seems to slow down...giving us the impression of time dragging it's feet... but in actual fact it does not...
The mind is quite amazing... thought is the 'fastest' ability we have and when our consciousness is present in the mental world... or any higher world... we have no body to drag around and we can experience things which would take hours when we are in the physical.

I need to go now...thank you for the opportunity to share.

Ray

heyokah
27th July 2015, 21:55
The funny thing is, the Yoga Sutras start with the end.
Chaper one (1.1 till 1.4) outlines where we are going, what is the "goal".

1.1 Atha yoga anushasanam
Now/thus(Atha) - after having done prior preparation through life and other practices - and the study and instruction (shasanam) of Yoga, we have reached Union (Yoga)

Since we have not reached that state of Union (the absorption in samadhi), we try the next/previous one. (the step before that Union state)

1.2 Yogash chitta vritti nirodhah
Yoga is the control (nirodhah, regulation, channeling, mastery, integration,
coordination, stilling, quieting, setting aside) of the modifications (vritti, fluctuations, modifications, thought patterns) of the mind field (chitta).

Since we have not reached that yet, we go to the one before.

1.3 Tada drashtuh svarupe avasthanam
Then the Seer/witness/Atman/Self is resting in its own True Nature, which is called Selfrealization.

Since we have not reached that state yet, go to 1.4

1.4 Vritti sarupyam itaratra
At other times (itaratra) - when one is not in Self-realization -, there is identification ( sarupyam) with the thought patterns (the Seer is taking on the identity of his thoughts.)

And that's where we are..... most of the time :)

From there (1.5) the actual teaching starts.

I would recommmend to study the book with the help of a good (Raja Yoga) teacher.

About 20 years ago, I followed 5 years of Raja Yoga training, during which Patanjali's Yoga Sutras was our guide.
I doubt that without the good teacher I had at that time, I would have got out of the book what I did and it has become a part of me since.

Add:
The Sanskrit word "yoga" has the literal meaning to "yoke", from the root "yuj", meaning to join, to unite....

Guish
28th July 2015, 07:05
I have decided to break the words and try to give my interpretation as well.


Yogashchittavrittinirodhah.

Tara drashtuh svarupe avast hanam

The activity of the brain should be harmonized through yoga (as mentioned earlier in the thread)

Vrittisarupyam itaratra

Vritti: modification
Sarupyam: Identification
Itaratra: Otherwise

Patanjali suggests that if the mind is not calmed, there is identification of our center with the thoughts. Therefore, we think that we are the thoughts. What is bad is that if we have bad thoughts, we start thinking that we are bad people because we have bad thoughts. We also start feeling bad about having bad thoughts. People want to be preoccupied because they do not want to be left with their conflicting thoughts. Hence, the mind is a problem if not calmed. This is why Buddha said to tame the mind. Conquer your mind and you'll conquer everything.

Beliefs/opinions/identification with concepts and the external world make us create a personality which is only a collection of information. What we really are as Patanjali says, the center is behind the thoughts. Not calming the mind will make us view the world according to our perception. Is our perception right? This is a very important aspect of research. It's usually called having the objective mind. Sometimes, we'll see things that we only want to see. For example, negative people will look at the negative side of things and the same applies to positive people. We put a label on everything. Does that necessarily make them become the truth? In my experience, the center doesn't differentiate between positive and negative because there's the end of duality there. If people could operate from this center, there would be only harmonization in all acts as their their mind will be in harmony. People will see possibilities while each one of us work from that center. Words do not really do justice to the text here. The path is given though. Calm down the mind.

Ewan
28th July 2015, 08:22
I read, or attempted to read, several of the 'blue books' around 10 years ago. There were parts that escaped me entirely and made for difficult reading, conversely others seemed quite clear. It was mostly the terminologies I struggled with, painting pictures of concepts that lacked (in me) a foundation for further understanding.

Guish
28th July 2015, 09:02
Hi Anakie,

Is what I said comprehensible enough till now?

Ewan
28th July 2015, 09:42
Yes Guish, what you have presented is very clear, thank you :)

I was referring mostly to the terminologies used in the books which I failed to grasp and therefore could not form a bigger picture. From my modern English language perspective a lot of it was written in quite archaic terms, I'm afraid I have never been very good with languages. Reference to the egoic being are clearly not the ego we regard today as the false sense of self, but seem more in line with an intermediary body such as the soul? The seven rays are all beyond me also though I did note a correlation with the splitting/scattering of light by a prism.

If it helps to provide an example from school about how my mind wants to work I always had problems with electricity. We were told that electricity was a flow of electrons and I held back at the end of class to ask what exactly that meant. It became apparent that the teacher couldn't actually tell me either. It was a 'terminology' that was in all the text books and apparently the teacher had just accepted it and moved on. I couldn't move on because I didn't understand it. I was stuck. I remain stuck today on many lines because I fail to grasp a fundamental building block.

I'm also aware that it is not really important to understand as it bears no relevance to larger pictures that can be grasped by other means*. I conclude I must be quite anal about certain things. :)

*abstract thinking

Guish
28th July 2015, 10:02
Spiritual truth is understood by experiencing and using it in one's life. There's really no point just reading just because it sounds nice. I've been born in a Hindu family even if I don't really consider myself to be a Hindu. There has always been a strong emphasis on rituals and praying without really understanding. Praying isn't bad if done with the heart and rituals do have a meaning as well. I'm saying that there's nothing in the act. It's all about using wisdom that comes from spiritual practice. Understanding spiritual books will depend on one's experiences and level of consciousness/thought. Hence, practice and learning go together. I'll keep posting extracts every day and with the help of others, we can explore the texts. Spirituality becomes interesting when one sees the effects in one's life. The rational mind can't really grasp it.

i-FkO7nIOSw

Finefeather
28th July 2015, 10:49
Patanjali suggests that if the mind is not calmed, there is identification of our center with the thoughts. Therefore, we think that we are the thoughts. What is bad is that if we have bad thoughts, we start thinking that we are bad people because we have bad thoughts. We also start feeling bad about having bad thoughts. People want to be preoccupied because they do not want to be left with their conflicting thoughts. Hence, the mind is a problem if not calmed. This is why Buddha said to tame the mind. Conquer your mind and you'll conquer everything.

We need to be careful how we use our terminology...because it can form wrong ideas in peoples understanding of just who and what we are.

When we talk of bad thoughts...we should try to see who it is that is doing the thinking...because we are not the thought, but we are the thinker.

Thinking is a consciousness expression which is energy in action...but the thought becomes a separate form outside our consciousness or awareness...and we should always remember that no one can think about anything they do not already know...or which is not already in their consciousness.

So from the above you can clearly see the trinity of our Being or true Self or Monad...We have 3 aspects to us...An energy aspect, which allows use to operate...a consciousness aspect, which is our known knowledge and experience...and a matter aspect which allows us to be identified or interact with others in the physical.

When a baby is born the first of it senses which activates is hearing, the second is touch, and the third is sight...each of these requires matter to interact so that the baby identifies these interactions with it's place in life.

Thinking some thought is also the method used for telepathy and everyone does it...the problem only lies in our ability to let the thought forms of others enter our consciousness to allow us to know what the other thinker has thought...but even here we need to be able to 'de-codify' the thoughts of others because we can only understand something if we have knowledge of it...this is consciousness... and if we do not have knowledge of some thought which we manage to 'get' then we would not have the faintest idea what was being communicated to us.

Every thought becomes manifest in either the emotional world or the mental world...depending on what we have thought about...normally what we think might be what we next do in the physical world...because that would be the physical manifestation of our thought.

So if and when we have bad thoughts they could be manifest in the physical...like, if we think we are going to kill someone, and then go out and do it...however if we have a bad thought about ourself...like, if we think we are too angry a person...then clearly these two thoughts come from different levels of our consciousness.

So it would be the subject or intention of the thought that would determine from which level we are expressing our consciousness from...one might be negative the other positive...so even a bad thought about ourselves can be positive because it is an owning of some 'bad' aspect of ourself that we need to work on...most people are very reluctant to think that what they do is 'bad'...just the ego in action.

Remember that the ego is simply a level of consciousness which keeps popping up in our lives...it should be controlled just as we do in meditation...but always remember one thing...
No one will ever solve a 'bad thing' by concentrating on the 'bad thing'...to resolve 'bad things' we need to move into 'good things'...and leave the 'bad things' behind'...a 'bad thing' might always be a 'bad thing'...depending on who is doing the thinking :)

Take care
Ray

Finefeather
28th July 2015, 11:14
This is probably off topic but I thought it would be interesting to consider...

I mentioned above that a thought is a consciousness expression...in other words we are expressing something we already know...because we cannot express anything which we are not conscious of.

Now imagine all the thoughts in the emotional and mental worlds which people are expressing...billions of thought forms get created in seconds...no wonder we are all so indoctrinated because most of these expressions come from low level consciousness.

The human collective thought form is what needs to be lifted and we do this by expressing higher levels of consciousness...

Ray

Guish
28th July 2015, 14:08
Spot on Ray. However, I was planning to explore this when we explore the 5 modifications of the mind. It's a personal responsibility to have the right thought and do the right action. Someone can ask me how can I speak of rightness when there's no duality? The answer is that when one operates from higher mental planes, like you call them Ray, one always do actions that contribute to a bigger cause. As one's level of consciousness increases, the resistance to contribute for a bigger cause becomes weaker and weaker.

I really appreciate the idea of collective consciousness. When I recruit someone, I usually assess whether the person can contribute for a bigger cause. As one's intuition becomes sharp, one can sense things while meeting people. I wouldn't mind having you guys as my neighbours as Sid grows up. The environment is very important. In my case, negative surroundings stimulated my spiritual growth.

heyokah
28th July 2015, 15:50
In Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, the eightfold path is called, ashtanga, which literally means “eight limbs” (ashta=eight, anga=limb)
.
These eight limbs/steps act as guidelines on how to live a meaningful and purposeful life.
They serve as a prescription for moral and ethical conduct and self-discipline.
They direct attention toward one’s health and they help us to acknowledge the spiritual aspects of our nature.

FYI

Yoga Sutras is also referred to as

Raja Yoga, the Royal Yoga.

Kriya Yoga, drawing on the use of the word Kriya from Chapter 2 (2.1).

Ashtanga Yoga (Ashta = eight; anga = rungs), which refers to the eight-fold path of Yoga, including

- yamas - the five restraints or the "don'ts"

- niyamas - the five observances or the "do's"

- asana - steady posture

- pranayama - control of prana or life force

- pratyahara - withdrawal of the senses

- dharana - concentration

- dhyana - meditation

- Samadhi - super-conscious state

This starts at Sutra 28 of Chapter 2 (2.28)


Note : this does not refer to the popularized physical yoga that has chosen to use the same name, Ashtanga Yoga, for their practices.
This modern/western yoga is only the third of the eight limbs (2.29) of Yoga - Asana

Ewan
28th July 2015, 18:18
Every thought becomes manifest in either the emotional world or the mental world...depending on what we have thought about...normally what we think might be what we next do in the physical world...because that would be the physical manifestation of our thought.



As I read through your post the above sentence resonated with me strongly and I immediately remembered a line from The Course in Miracles. "You are far too careless with your thoughts".


Spiritual truth is understood by experiencing and using it in one's life. There's really no point just reading just because it sounds nice. I've been born in a Hindu family even if I don't really consider myself to be a Hindu. There has always been a strong emphasis on rituals and praying without really understanding. Praying isn't bad if done with the heart and rituals do have a meaning as well. I'm saying that there's nothing in the act. It's all about using wisdom that comes from spiritual practice. Understanding spiritual books will depend on one's experiences and level of consciousness/thought. Hence, practice and learning go together. I'll keep posting extracts every day and with the help of others, we can explore the texts. Spirituality becomes interesting when one sees the effects in one's life. The rational mind can't really grasp it.

i-FkO7nIOSw

I was in total accord with your statement and then watched the video. Within 90 seconds I was laughing at myself - I caught myself beginning an inner dialogue in response to something I had just heard, subsequently I may have missed the next minute of speech. This happened twice more before the end of the 9 minute video. Even when aware of what I had just done, and determined to increase focus and concentration, I still fell by the wayside two more times before the end of the video. :bigsmile:

I would like to thank all of you for sharing, as within each of your posts I find reminders that are often another 'kick up the backside' that I so clearly need; many, many kicks.

I like looking at words and what they really mean, beyond dictionary meanings.

Re-mind: a call to pay attention. It is something you already know but have put aside, a reminder brings it back to awareness.
Re-member: this one is 'to put back together', for me a quite literal opposite of dismember, (to pull apart). Again it is something already known but it had become fractured, scattered, it had to be recombined, remembered.

I have no idea if these are accurate summations but it sometimes amuses me to delve into the deeper (or original) meaning of words.

Conclusions I draw specific to my own being are that the mind does not 'want' to be still. (Forgive clumsy language, there would be many alternative ways to say this I am sure). There are a multitude of ways to be distracted and some are very tempting. To maintain awareness of a goal is difficult; yet at some stage I hope it becomes easier. :)


(author:Finefeather)

So it would be the subject or intention of the thought that would determine from which level we are expressing our consciousness from...one might be negative the other positive...so even a bad thought about ourselves can be positive because it is an owning of some 'bad' aspect of ourself that we need to work on...most people are very reluctant to think that what they do is 'bad'...just the ego in action.

I was very uncomfortable with this when it was first expressed to me many years ago, simply as 'level confusion'. I could not see why there had to be a ceiling to understanding or awareness. I viewed it as a prison, a confinement. Now 14 years on I can smile and realise it was the ego that railed against the concept. The ego can be quite content to let you practice all the spirituality you wish if it has got its foot in the door and so travels with you. That way, I fear, leads to the extreme, intractable views of much religous doctrine.

When I see hard-line christians calling for the destruction of Islam and vice a versa I realise these people do not actually think at all.

But all the above highlights the need of the awakening soul/conciousness to be evermindful to carry a mirror in front of them, the answers lie within and nothing, (no-thing), lies without. Unfortunately I am all too prone to 'forgetting my self'.

I am a master at justifications for this tardyness:

-I have two small children that require so much attention and guidance. ( I do not preach to them, merely try and develop the concept of thinking for yourself and not accepting the voices of 'authority' as an all encompassing answer).
-I have a wife that is as far away from a crack of light as I myself was 30 years ago. ( I constantly get sucked into anger by her contraryness - where's that mirror, quick. I should bless her but all too often dream of packing a bag and walking out).
-Where am I supposed to find the time to practice?

Of course all that is nonsense and I am ashamed to admit it. It would be realtively easy to find 10 and 20 minutes here and there to practice self-reflection and/or silence. I just choose to do other things.

But regardless of what I do I am blessed with an extremely patient aspect somewhere deep within that just provides reminders, (I call it my alarm system), all the time. It seems I have reached a point in my awareness where it is impossible for me to return to the matrix. I have a hidden watcher that pokes me frequently with a metaphorical stick.

I look forward to you all providing incessant 'kicks' to reinforce those 'pokes'.

Thank you again. :sun:

Chris Gilbert
28th July 2015, 22:27
There is a state known as 'The Eternal Now" where the "individual experiences reality both in the present and in the past, which exists in the “eternal now” or in the aeonic time appearing to the causal self as timelessness" ...however, this is only achievable once the Self has progressed to the Causal World...and we know that timelessness does not exist...it only appears AS timelessness.

The state which a person reaches in meditation itself is always in accordance with the level of consciousness he/she has reached.



When performing the method of Daoist Neigong I was taught I sometimes experience something similar to what you described. Rather than time being percieved as a linear line, it becomes more akin to a non-linear sphere, with past and present in my life occupying the same moment. I'm hesitant to say that I'm reaching the Causal level however, perhaps percieving the energy of such but moreso it's effects on what your system is referring to as the mental plane. I'm less in a rush now than I was when I was younger, genuine training tends to take many decades, even occasional 'breakthroughs' tend to be cyclical and take time to fully crystalize.

Finefeather
28th July 2015, 22:55
When performing the method of Daoist Neigong I was taught I sometimes experience something similar to what you described. Rather than time being percieved as a linear line, it becomes more akin to a non-linear sphere, with past and present in my life occupying the same moment.
Hi Enishi
I had to lookup 'Daoist Neigong' because I am not familiar with the philosophy...but what you have described sounds similar except for when you say "with past and present in my life".

I suspect that this means in your current life ? ...and if so...then it is not yet at the Causal consciousness level, because Causal consciousness allows accessing the past of our entire 'life' as a Human Self...in other words all our past lives included.

I should also just mention that only those with Causal consciousness are able to accurately determine past life details...all other sources of this information are inaccurate and more than likely false.

Take care
Ray

Guish
29th July 2015, 06:19
-I have two small children that require so much attention and guidance. ( I do not preach to them, merely try and develop the concept of thinking for yourself and not accepting the voices of 'authority' as an all encompassing answer).
-I have a wife that is as far away from a crack of light as I myself was 30 years ago. ( I constantly get sucked into anger by her contraryness - where's that mirror, quick. I should bless her but all too often dream of packing a bag and walking out).
-Where am I supposed to find the time to practice?

Of course all that is nonsense and I am ashamed to admit it. It would be realtively easy to find 10 and 20 minutes here and there to practice self-reflection and/or silence. I just choose to do other things.

But regardless of what I do I am blessed with an extremely patient aspect somewhere deep within that just provides reminders, (I call it my alarm system), all the time. It seems I have reached a point in my awareness where it is impossible for me to return to the matrix. I have a hidden watcher that pokes me frequently with a metaphorical stick.

I look forward to you all providing incessant 'kicks' to reinforce those 'pokes'.

Thank you again. :sun:

Hi Anakie,

You seem to have a very good intuition that guides you. Usually hard situations makes one think and this leads to spiritual growth. Buddha wanted to find a solution for suffering and this triggered his path to enlightenment. I have a 2 year old son and just like you I feel the need to be very peaceful because I'm well aware of the damage a parent can do if the parent is not in control of his/her senses. I have a very good meditation technique which just takes 5 minutes and I found it very good when I used it years ago. Since I'm in holidays, I'm doing it for 10 minutes everyday together with zazen. Please have a look.

38vYfQWa_ek

Guish
29th July 2015, 11:41
1.5

Vrittayah Panchatayya Klishta-aklishtah

Vritti: Modification/agitation
Pancha: five
Klishta: Painful
Aklishta: Not painful

The mind modifies itself in 5 fives; some painful and some not

1.6

Pramana viparyaya vikalpa nidra smritayah

The five modifications are:

Pramana: Right reasoning
Viparyaya: Incorrect reasoning
Vikalpa: Imagination
Nidra: Sleep
Smritayah: Memories

heyokah
29th July 2015, 13:56
On 1.6 :

The five varieties of though are:

• Right knowledge/reasoning, valid proof, seeing clearly, real or valid cognition.

• Wrong knowledge/reasoning, unreal cognition, indiscrimination, perverse cognition, misconception, incorrect knowing, not seeing clearly (perceiving a thing as being other than what it really is).

• Imagination, verbal misconception or delusion, fantasy, hallucination.

• Deep (dreamless) sleep.

• Memory, remembering.


Of the five kinds of interfering thoughts, Right Knowledge (pramana) is the one to cultivate.
The process of continually seeing ever more clearly brings progress on the path to truth and insight of the True Self.

Add

Interesting to read:

http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-10511.htm

Guish
29th July 2015, 14:37
Thanks Heyokah,

This is where it becomes interesting.

Three ways to attain correct knowing: The first of the five kinds of thought patterns described in the last sutra is pramana, which is real or valid cognition, right knowledge, valid proof, seeing clearly. Here, in sutra 1.7, three different ways are described about how one acquires that correct knowing. These are direct perception, reasoning, and validation. Each of them are valid, and standing alone can provide correct knowing, though you want the three to be in agreement. This description of correct knowing applies both to mundane ways of knowing, such as seeing objects in the external world, and to spiritual insights on the inner journey.

Seek experience, not mere belief: In the oral Yoga tradition, it is said that you should not believe what you hear, but should seek direct experience. This is the meaning of the first of these three ways of knowing. The second part is that of reasoning, whereby you want that experience to be understood in the light of your own inference or reasoning. The third part is that you seek the validation through some respected authority or testimony. This might be a textual authority, such as the Yoga Sutras, or some respected person who has first hand knowledge.

Getting these three to converge: When you can get these three to converge, meaning that experience, reasoning, and authoritative validation all agree with one another, then you know, and you know that you know, in regard to any particular aspect of the inner journey. Thus, this sutra is an extremely practical tool for the inner journey.

What if the three have not converged?: Consider the alternatives of these three converging. Often, people will have some experience with their spiritual journey, and have no understanding of what has happened, nor any validation. This can be frustrating and fearful, and can leave one wandering, feeling lost for a very long time. If the experience were understood and validated, it could be integrated and used as a stepping stone to more advanced spiritual insights. If one has only logical reasoning, but no experience or validation, it can lead to mere intellectualizing. If one only has the authoritative knowledge, without personal understanding or experience, it can lead to cold memorization, such as can happen in academia or blind faith religion.

Seek each, and also convergence: For the sincere seeker, direct experience, reasoning, and validation are all three sought in relation to the inner journey, and in such a way that there is a convergence of the three.

Source: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-10511.htm

Guish
29th July 2015, 17:03
The trap is that if one believes something to be true, reality will manifest it. For example, if someone believes in a given God, that God may well appear in dreams and talk to that person. The person will think of this as a spiritual experiences while it's just a trick of the mind.

Ewan
29th July 2015, 22:25
The trap is that if one believes something to be true, reality will manifest it. For example, if someone believes in a given God, that God may well appear in dreams and talk to that person. The person will think of this as a spiritual experiences while it's just a trick of the mind.

What is reality? What is reality that it can manifest something?

What of collective belief where millions of people believe the same thing. Allah, God don't manifest to millions but some individuals think their personal deity manifested to them. What of the millions who did not have any manifestation?
When someone has a spiritual experience they take it as a confirmation of something bigger, different. They question their reality because now they feel there is another reality, or more to reality.

What is the difference between faith and belief, is faith just a form of belief?

How is one to differentiate, to discern, between a trick of the mind and something meaningful and 'real'. What is real?

If someone moves into a new reality do they spend thousands of new lifetimes before they realise that that new/next reality is also illusion?

I know this world, this reality, is illusion, I had my own confirmation of that, just a glimpse but for now, at least, it remains unshakeable. Is the next reality another, higher dimension?

I once had a foreign thought intrude into my silence, I never for one moment thought it was God but some(one/thing) gave me some advice. I think most people would say they heard a voice, but it never came via the ears. It was just another thought, only it did not originate from me. At least not in the way I am used to thoughts arising. It may have been some aspect of self I am not aware of. It was not a trick of the mind for it had nothing to do with any belief that I am aware of.

Dimension after dimension all illusion. Is the end goal to realise nothing is real?

Where does that ultimately leave us? Unreality?

If the void is all, and life but a breath, a movement, arising only to return to NO THING what is the point of any of it?

(I'm not grilling you or being confrontational, these are just questions that surfaced after reading what you wrote.)

Guish
30th July 2015, 06:13
Hi Anakie,


My post was related to this sutra.

Pramana: Right reasoning
Viparyaya: Incorrect reasoning
Vikalpa: Imagination
Nidra: Sleep
Smritayah: Memories

Nidra/sleep with dreams is affected by what one thinks, watches and listens to or even eats. Eating too much sugar excites the brain and your body and ultimately affects your dreams. People share an emotional bond with a deity they might be praying. They start telling themselves that all good is happening because of the deity and they start to even dream of the deity. If you read only about bad news, listen to loud music and believe in only bad things, you'll attract bad people to you, sleep badly and your experiences will be more or less negative. As a thought leads to an action and a series of actions become your reality, one can clearly establish that the thought launches everything. A confused mind will lead to confused actions and a confused reality. Hence, a person's reality might well be just an illusion.

However, once the mind is harmonised, your center (using patanjali terms) is permanent and unchangeable. When you start accessing this center without the influence of conflicting thoughts, thoughts become spontaneous and these thoughts always contribute to a bigger cause because at this level one knows that everything is connected and whatever you're giving away is coming back to you in a way. The inner voice that you are speaking about comes from this level of the mind. I have experienced many things in my life from his center to know what I'm talking about. I mentioned about this in Trainee's thread. I'll a link to a post if you're interested.

According to the Bhagvad gita, we are all all consciousness which got entangled into matter. However, there reaches a level in our evolution that we get tired of the material body and want to go back to our original form which is pure consciousness. At this point, we start questioning the meaning of life and try to discover that other thing. A disentanglement occurs at this point and slowly we start to realise that we are indeed something beyond the body and the conflicting mind. Nevertheless, your children and all beings are all beings with different levels of consciousness. One can't just say this is all illusion and go and meditate in a forest or live like a recluse. Unconditional love and compassion are effects when the true self is experienced. What would one do with these things if one says that everything is false? Consciousness in the human body can be expressed and enhanced by human activities. The human life is a platform for sharing and growing. I wouldn't say it's an illusion even if I understand what you're trying to say. This word is over utilized, I'd say.

heyokah
30th July 2015, 06:45
“Reality,” wrote Philip K. Dick, “is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” And yet how are we to be sure that what we observe actually is? After all, so much of what we experience as reality is the product of our remarkably flawed perception.

Some 2,400 years earlier, Plato explored this very question in his famous Allegory of the Cave — perhaps history’s most masterful figurative inquiry into the meaning of life and the nature of reality.

http://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/23/plato-allegory-of-the-cave-ted-ed/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RWOpQXTltA

Is the modern allegory of Plato's Cave the Computer ?

Guish
30th July 2015, 06:57
“Reality,” wrote Philip K. Dick, “is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” And yet how are we to be sure that what we observe actually is? After all, so much of what we experience as reality is the product of our remarkably flawed perception.

Some 2,400 years earlier, Plato explored this very question in his famous Allegory of the Cave — perhaps history’s most masterful figurative inquiry into the meaning of life and the nature of reality

http://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/23/plato-allegory-of-the-cave-ted-ed/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RWOpQXTltA

Is the modern allegory of Plato's Cave is the Computer ?

This gets more twisted with the double slit experiment which has as one of the hypotheses that the particle reacts differently when observed. Another hypothesis about why particles react differently when observed is that all particles are probability distributions and react differently at each shot. This is so interesting because once the mind is calmed, there's actually a vastness which is experienced and all creations do seem to come from this vastness. Hence, the idea that everything comes from nothing. Hence, we are all possibilities.

Guish
30th July 2015, 12:02
Since we are on the topic of right knowledge, this may well be worth noting. I should add that these characteristics are unfolded automatically when the noise of the brain is reduced and the influence of the ego weakens. Living strictly according to these guidelines without transcending ego would make these guidelines just another religion. I doubt this might have happened in many places.

The Noble Eightfold Path

The Noble Eightfold Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering is the way pointed out by the Buddha for achieving Self-purification, freedom from Passion (Kilesa) and Delusion (Moha), namely, Right Understanding, Right Intention, Right Attentiveness and Right Concentration. It is the absolute truth and the only way to Supreme Wisdom and to Salvation from all Suffering.

The Eightfold Path is also called “The Middle Path of Enlightenment” because the Buddha taught how to exercise and develop the mind along the Eightfold Path in gradual stages. As one goes along on the Path, little by little one will make progress in the practice of self-control and gradually attain to greater knowledge and insight in the Buddha-Dhamma.



01. What is Right Understanding?
It is to know what is good and what is Evil; to know the Four Noble Truths and the Law of Dependent Origination.


02. What is Right Intention?
It is to make a firm re- solution to practice Self-control and Self-restraint to become free of Sensuality, free of Ill will and free of Cruelty.


03. What is Right Speech?
Having gained the right understanding of the Dhamma and having made the Right Resolution, Right Speech becomes the natural consequence of the first two Paths. Having attained Right-mindedness we cannot but express our pure mind in any other way than by Right Speech which is to abstain from lying, slandering, using harsh language and vain talk.


04. What is Right Action?
It is to abstain from killing any sentient being, from stealing and from unlawful sexual inter- course. Right Action is the logical consequence of Right- Mindedness and of Right Speech. To be truthful to one’s firm resolution and to one’s given word we must act rightly.


05. What is Right Living?
It is to renounce wrong ways of living. Therefore the following trades are forbidden : the selling of arms, live animals, meat, intoxicating drinks and poison.


06. What is Right Effort?
It is to keep on doing things right, namely, to do good and to maintain it; to destroy evil and to avoid evil. We should not only do good for ourselves but also for others. Out of Loving-kindness and Compassion we should serve others and do good to them.


07. What is Right Attentiveness?
This consists of deep meditation and contemplation of our own selves, namely, of our body organs and of “The Five Aggregates of Attachment” as being impermanent, miserable and non-Self-contained. We then meditate upon the Teachings of the Buddha. By continued meditation upon these objects we gradually exercise the mind to such a degree of concentration that we slowly gain Insight into the true facts of life and become more and more convinced of the Absolute Truth, namely:

(1) That Ignorance is the cause of all life, because it causes the three fold craving to arise (Sensual Desire, Desire for Existence, and Desire not to be what one dislikes).

(2) That Desire is the cause of our Attachment to the “Five Aggregates of Attachment” (Bodily-Form, Feeling, Perception, Sense-Impressions, and Consciousness), which we falsely believe to be the very essence of our Individuality. Desire is also the cause of Rebirth because our Desire for Existence is so great that at the moment of death our Karma grasps a new being and thus perpetuates the Circle of Rebirth.

(3) That we are but the result of our previous and present Karma and have made ourselves what we are now, and which will determine our future existence and the state into which we shall be reborn.

(4) That all things in this world are things composed (Sankhara) and are impermanent, miserable and not self-contained.

(5) That the only way to escape from this world of suffering and impermanence and from the “Circle of Rebirth ” is to purify the heart of all passions (Kilesa) and from all Attachment to the“ Five Aggregates of Attachment”; to avoid evil, to do good. Having destroyed all Kilesa and Karma itself— we attain Nirvana.


08. What is Right Concentration?
It is a state of mind where all Seven Paths are present, which means that we have progressed along the Middle Path of Enlightenment and have developed the mind to such an extent that, having attained to full concentration of mind, we now become cognizant of the true facts of life and therefore begin to turn away from Wrong Speech—Wrong Action—and Wrong Ways of Living.

Thus the Middle Path of Enlightenment of the Buddha reveals itself as a gradual perfection of the mind to the highest Wisdom and Insight of the true facts of life.

In the first Path, we gain knowledge and understanding of the Dhamma.

In the second Path, we make the Right Resolution to free the mind of sensuality, ill will and cruelty. Having attained to Right-Mindedness and continuing to purify the mind we continue along the Path by attaining to Right Speech, Right Action and Right Living. In the Sixth Path we make the Right Effort to maintain the good already achieved and to avoid all further evil doing. In the Seventh and Eighth Path we reach such a degree of Concentration of mind that we are then capable of realizing the Absolute Truth and begin to reject Wrong Speech, Wrong Action, and Wrong Living.

While in other religions which are based upon faith and human ideals, “life is all or love is all”, in Buddhism “mind is all” . It is the well trained mind, the mind developed to its highest capacity, to intuitive insight and wisdom which can realize its own Salvation from all Suffering and from Rebirth by following the Noble Eightfold Path of Enlightenment discovered and experienced by the Buddha.

Johnny
30th July 2015, 23:17
The trap is that if one believes something to be true, reality will manifest it. For example, if someone believes in a given God, that God may well appear in dreams and talk to that person. The person will think of this as a spiritual experiences while it's just a trick of the mind.

What is reality? What is reality that it can manifest something?

What of collective belief where millions of people believe the same thing. Allah, God don't manifest to millions but some individuals think their personal deity manifested to them. What of the millions who did not have any manifestation?
When someone has a spiritual experience they take it as a confirmation of something bigger, different. They question their reality because now they feel there is another reality, or more to reality.

What is the difference between faith and belief, is faith just a form of belief?

How is one to differentiate, to discern, between a trick of the mind and something meaningful and 'real'. What is real?

If someone moves into a new reality do they spend thousands of new lifetimes before they realise that that new/next reality is also illusion?

I know this world, this reality, is illusion, I had my own confirmation of that, just a glimpse but for now, at least, it remains unshakeable. Is the next reality another, higher dimension?

I once had a foreign thought intrude into my silence, I never for one moment thought it was God but some(one/thing) gave me some advice. I think most people would say they heard a voice, but it never came via the ears. It was just another thought, only it did not originate from me. At least not in the way I am used to thoughts arising. It may have been some aspect of self I am not aware of. It was not a trick of the mind for it had nothing to do with any belief that I am aware of.

Dimension after dimension all illusion. Is the end goal to realise nothing is real?

Where does that ultimately leave us? Unreality?

If the void is all, and life but a breath, a movement, arising only to return to NO THING what is the point of any of it?

(I'm not grilling you or being confrontational, these are just questions that surfaced after reading what you wrote.)

IMO !!! That it all is an illusion is a very personal experience, it is not something one are able to figure out, it is simply an experience. When I returned from that experience, there was no difference

between reality and illusion, in the sense that there is no response to either one or the other. It is as if the duality of the concepts has ceased. If we still need to talk about reality and illusion, so be it,

how are we able to make the illusion real. ?

And Anakie, it is only in the movies there is and "The End" even they now a days has dropped that. If you try to look at it in the way that everything is situations, then the individual situations keep up,

but there will always be new situations (unless one is running in loop/s, and only as long one is running in loop/s) it is also called TIME. It is not (IMO) ONE BIG situation.

Why do you definitely want there to be a point ?

Cheers Johnny :)

Johnny
30th July 2015, 23:30
I just started to read an free e-book which seems very promising. It is about a young man who is in search of eternal life. He meets as a man he is spying on. The man discovers it and says:

"Spying on my secrets is useless. I could shout them from the rooftops and they would still be secrets.". (I have been confined to reading).

The book is called "The Red Lion" The Elixir of Eternal Life (An Alchemist Novel).

https://ebooks.wtf/download/free/the-red-lion-the-elixir-of-eternal-life-an-alchemist-novel.10483087.html if anyone is interested.

Johnny :)

Guish
1st August 2015, 18:34
Ok, back to the topic.

Viparyayo- error
Mithaya-False
Jnanam-Knowledge
a-not
tad- self/pure consciousness
rupa-form
Pra-Establish


Error is false knowledge not established by the self.

If we look at a person, there's social conditioning, culture, moral values, laws and religion, beliefs of parents and education among many others that form a person. On the other hand, actions are done using the senses. People are trapped between do's and dont's and the senses which drive the person crazy. Lust, greed, anger, pain are the things a person have to deal with. A person is thrown into mental confusion because the actions contradict the real self of the person and this leads to suffering. Patanjali claims that a person can't get it wrong if the person is operating from the true self or pure consciousness. A person doesn't need guidelines to live in harmony with others. If one connects to the true self, there's only one way. No Questioning. This seems to overlap the zen philosophy of "No mind". This is quite disturbing for many people because it seems that the whole existence of a given person is gone in a moment leaving nothing. Yet, this nothing is everything. From my own experience, the more I've erased myself, the more I've been at peace and things have been given to me automatically. Examples would be promotion at my job, birth of my child, people coming in my life in times of need after many years.

Guish
10th August 2015, 12:05
Abhyasa Vairagyabhan Tan nirodhah


Abyasa- Work on oneself requiring effort and devotion
Vairagya- Absence of passion, attachment, no emotional identification with.
Nirodha- Stopping

If one practises activities intensely and with detachment, the mental noise is stopped. The practice of yoga has as aim the stillness of the mind. It's not about doing a given posture many times, building muscles or improving reflexes. It's about being one with the event. If a person can bring the spirit of yoga to the daily life, the person will be able to deal with events peacefully while paying attention to every single emotion, whether good or bad and taking actions after differentiating between thoughts. The word detachment is emphasised in the sutra and people may find it hard to understand why Patanjali talks about absence of passion as well. With yoga, it is understood that when a person does an activity with full concentration, there's no feeling while doing the activity. The person becomes one with the activity. In Zen, the word no mind is used to explain the stillness of the mind reached. There's also mention of detachment. In the Bhagavad gita, it is highlighted that actions should be done without expecting rewards. Hence, it's a detachment from success which one can experience after an activity becomes a success. Detachment while loving also; when one loves, one sets the other person free and doesn't bind the person. True happiness is reached through expansion of an individual which can only be attained by freedom.

In simple words, give everything. Do all activities with devotion without getting attached to them. Get detached from success or failure. How can one move on if one holds on to something on the way? The something makes us heavy and may even stop us. Be the candle that lights other candles. Know you are the light but don't admire your light. It's not about having a negative self image. It's about being very humble. It's always very hard to put in words.

Cheers,
G.

shaberon
31st May 2016, 09:23
What is reality? What is reality that it can manifest something?

Dimension after dimension all illusion. Is the end goal to realise nothing is real?

Where does that ultimately leave us? Unreality?

If the void is all, and life but a breath, a movement, arising only to return to NO THING what is the point of any of it?


Patanjali gave the pre-eminent method, but after chewing on it for a while and forming these questions, I think the clearest responses are given from the Adwaita description of Brahman, or the Shentong school of Buddhism.

Ultimate reality is One Life, which is not, can not, and does not manifest. It is "nothing" to us, but void is not "empty of all existence", it is "empty of everything not itself" (Shentong). It, alone, IS. It, alone, has permanent duration and infinite space.

What manifests, is Its reflection, which happens periodically. In the reflection, the eternal form of matter can be shaped and formed. The reflection is full of mysteries which can become known.

The point, for us, is the end of suffering, which of course is not only physical discomfort, but mental illusion. Even in these relative, temporary, conventional worlds, there are laws. The worlds are unreal illusions, again, less so much in the sense that they do not exist at all, but in how the mind is unclear about its laws--such as karma and reincarnation. I can learn about them intellectually, but to go from there, to it being a completely clear experience, is more than one lifetime for me. Having useful guides such as Patanjali is a big boost in reducing suffering, and increasing clarity; but even after years, I still cannot fathom my own karmic seeds, let alone pretend to know that of another person--and if there is a greater mind that knows the karma of everyone on earth, serving its duty loyally for the lifespan of the entire planet--the experience is so vast compared to the intellectual lesson, no wonder Brahman can hardly be spoken of.

I will eat illusions and hell until mentally overpowering "my mind" and "myself". In one lifetime, I have much more work to do, while trying to spread some joy, than passing mysteries and degrees of ignorance. Or, so Buddhism would say to the Adwaitees, who are renunciant ascetics. Buddha did in fact go that route, and wound up teaching that extreme asceticism was unnecessary.

I think those are very important questions worth meditating upon often. It was frustrating to me, and I believe it is frustrating to a lot of people to start getting those impressions about an unreal lack of existence, that the void means everything goes poof and there is no meaning. However, our impression of dreamless sleep in empty space, which is nothing to us, is the closest we can come to the true, real, permanent existence. Whatever it may actually be, is totally beyond any concept I could have of it, but it is there whether or not any universes are manifested, and is simply the annihilation of everything knowable, not the total annihilation of existence.