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loveoflife
29th July 2015, 15:52
Is this what so many are disagreeing and arguing about on the internet?

Is it just perspective and an inability to see anothers point of view?

This works on many levels, truths that appears as a 2D images are just a projections of a 3D object which is the bigger picture.

The cylindrical object represents energy which has two polarities in duality. Its a matter of perspective if these paradoxical polarities oppose or compliment each other.

Do not forget that divide and rule is a simple method that destroys coherence and unity.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11813499_849112198504062_5881820533408690881_n.jpg ?oh=bb1bd7cf3d18aa91907622566fbad297&oe=56589091

FinallyNow
29th July 2015, 16:03
This is great. Or at least it's a great analogy of perception. I've looked at this on and off for a long time. Not this picture per se, but the question. Do we get lost in our evolving relative truth in search of a universal truth that is true regardless of perceptions? I think I may need to go back to some of the philosophers to see what their takes are. I remember plato's world of forms a little. I also remember someone's things "in themselves" vs. things "of themselves." The former represents them as they are and the later is as they are perceived by individuals. I think I have that right.

WildOrchid
29th July 2015, 16:08
Truth:
Each of us have individual opinions, observations, viewpoints, realities and perceptions. They differ from person to person. Perceptions be it physical or spiritual are based on individual awareness and experiences. In that sense what is true for one, may, or may not be true for other(s). And just because others do agree, or not agree, does not make it more or less true for the person with that experience. And in that sense to be able to see and understand an others point of view, while personally disagreeing, is true greatness.

Deega
29th July 2015, 16:22
My perception of the Truth lies with what makes me a living, loving being.

In our visible World, the Earth, the Water, the Fire, the Universe are beings I can't live without, my Truths. In the invisible World, the Air, the Light, the Aether, the Multidimensional are beings, I can't live without, my Truths.

I'm not sure if I was in line with what Lovelife expected though!

Shantsai
29th July 2015, 16:26
There may be no such thing as absolute truth, but there is such a thing as absolute bull****.

That's a comic aphorism, but it points to something that I think is very important: We can never really be sure what other people are experiencing or how they perceive reality, but we are capable of both fooling ourselves and of digging ourselves out of self-deception. Self-deception is the worst trap there is, and we have to be really rigorous with ourselves in terms of discovering our own truths and untruths.

The people who seem to be most intent on enforcing their own idea of truth on other people are precisely those people who are pulling the wool over their own eyes. In order to maintain their self-deception they want everyone else to agree with them, loudly and immediately. At gunpoint if need be.

I think truth is a direction, and healing or growth means to go in that direction. For different people in different places it may not seem to be the same direction. But that's just because they're fooling themselves in different ways.

loveoflife
29th July 2015, 16:34
Back to the op.

There are two contradictory opposites that are projections an object that is multidimensional, both are true.

On a more personal note this raises the question, how do we perceive ourselves?

Are we identifying with one of the 2D projections or the other, while missing the multidimensional aspects of ourselves? Are we both the projections and the object and more are we also the light that shines on them creating this illusion of duality, polarities and paradox.

I have raised questions that have taken the concept to a metaphysical level. Some may think a post like this belongs on the spiritual forum, though i do not want this to end up a discussion on enlightenment.

From the mundane to the spiritual these concepts interweave. Life is contradictory, we are contradictory, we exist with these polarities and need to unify or transcend them or not. Both exist, one is not superior to the other, we need to see both sides of existence of ourselves in order to be whole.

This also applies to the brain hemispheres and how they work in entirely different ways.

As i see it we have been split internally and externally and we reinforce this division the more we identify with one polarity at the expense of the other. We are all at the same time, capable of leaning towards on side, we are also both sides and more, there is always more.

loveoflife
29th July 2015, 16:42
My perception of the Truth lies with what makes me a living, loving being.

In our visible World, the Earth, the Water, the Fire, the Universe are beings I can't live without, my Truths. In the invisible World, the Air, the Light, the Aether, the Multidimensional are beings, I can't live without, my Truths.

I'm not sure if I was in line with what Lovelife expected though!

Thank you, i had no expectations. As they say a picture says a thousand words. I welcome all perspectives on the op picture. I am sure there are as many perspectives as there are people.

I tend towards the metaphysical in my outlook, though looking at this from a material point of view is just as valid.

My aspirations may be invisible, yet it is through working with the visible that i progress towards them.

Baby Steps
29th July 2015, 20:06
Infinite love is the only truth, all else is illusion.

That image illustrates well the point that truth is a lot about perspective or view point. Our view point is limited. Our perspective is limited.

Life asks us who we are. We come into our power when we are in alignment with our truth. What other truth can we have?

We can learn that we will encounter perspectives who's truth seemingly contradicts our own. Then we can grow greatly in the synthesis!

In this limited reality we can only do our best to discern higher truths, and there is so much deception. Being spiritual seems to be to be discerning.

One truth that I am feeling more and more is that there is an unacceptable level of tyranny in this reality.

Another is that nothing really matters as the March of spirit ever higher to oneness continues regardless!
God bless

Lost N Found
29th July 2015, 21:56
I awoke, I created myself today, I traveled or am traveling through this awareness right now, I am creating all that I see and hear, think and feel in the now, there is no past, there is no future, there is only now, this is my truth or is it. such existentialism can be so frustrating or it may be just a lie. Is this truth? Who am I, Who are you, What is this around me, what is that around you, Do you exist or are you just an illusion in my dream? I walk this path, believing that something exists around me but wait, I have created this in my own thoughts. We thrive in the now but we live in the past or the future. Another way to say this is we exist only in the now but our thoughts keep us in the past or the future. How do we know that anything ever happened beyond today? TRUTH! What is that? Do we all have a perceived notion of just exactly what that is and this is how it should be? Ok, now to say this, Yes we all have our own perceived ideas of what truth is and because we are fleshly beings we justify to ourselves that all is existing around us and everyone we meet or know is real/truth. So here we go on down this road towards reality.

Love and light
Lost N Found

Troy Martin
30th July 2015, 16:03
Corrected
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/Morbiously/11813499_849112198504062_5881820533408690881_n.jpg

What this picture doesn't take into account is that if the viewer has false beliefs in the soul it can distort the shape into something that isn't (see picture below).
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/Morbiously/11813499_849112198504062_5881820533408690881_n_1.j pg

I notice people saying things like "my truth" or "your truth" which doesn't even exist because if it is only a belief about something that doesn't agree with everyone who is sane then it is only an opinion and/or a perception. No one can honestly claim to own or have created truth to actually mine or yours because only god created truth. A belief can only come into alignment with truth but it cannot own it or create it.

What happens is the truth regardless of what you believe about and you won't see the truth about it unless your beliefs are in a state of truth which is why it is wiser for people to convert their belief system into truth before opening their mouth and trying to express something because all they end up doing is causing others to come into their delusion which isn't healthy or a loving thing to do.

This belief in my truth and your truth, which doesn't exist is why many religions exist. If people wanted to know the truth vs. just see it and come into a state of truth through experience vs. perceiving all people would be or exist in a state of truth and there would be no religions or different perceptions or opinions about anything.

So what is the truth?

1. It is what god believes.
2. It is what god or a creator creates.
3. It is what happens separately from what we would like to believe.
4. It is a condition of the beliefs in the soul which gives the soul the powers of creation.

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 16:23
Question for Troy:

"So what is the truth?
1. It is what god believes."

So what were to happen if I were not to" believe" in what god believes...?

Troy Martin
30th July 2015, 17:03
Question for Troy:

"So what is the truth?
1. It is what god believes."

So what were to happen if I were not to" believe" in what god believes...?

Your emotional condition would distort, creating painful emotions like fear, guilt, shame, grief, ect. When you witness something, that info travels up your consciousness to your soul and is reflected back (what Shambhala Buddhism calls the Great Cosmic Mirror), filtered through that false emotional perception and resulting in choices and thoughts that are not based in absolute truth or intelligence. In other words, you become insane. To believe in something that doesn't exist is be to be insane. When you believe in things that don't exist the painful emotions, which is a complete distortion of reality, is the cause of duality consciousness (technically triality - body, mind and soul) which severely shortens your lifespan, creates the condition in the body for disease, aging and death. So what happens is that you become miserable. This is why teacher like Jesus says things like "the truth will set you free" of the misery and unconscious fate-based behavioral reactions and choices causing you become a slave to your own soul's condition.

So when a person's beliefs are distorted their perceptions of things get twisted. For example, some people believe god is a punishing god but in reality and truth god is helping us all get into a state of truth by helping us understand truth through the the experience and feeling of. When a person is deluded with "their truth" (aka false beliefs) they tend to think and believe reality is different than what it is. Religions are created by people with false beliefs. So they think god is a punishing god so therefore, it is godly to punish people when that is only violating people. So the gods of religions technically don't exist because those perceptions are nothing more like false beliefs, like the distorted shapes. Some believe in reincarnation because they perceive spirit influence, communication, attachments, and possession, but that doesn't mean they "reincarnated". Reincarnation is a perception about an event/experience and not a truth. Those things don't exist just because they're perceived that way. So what happens is if you don't believe in truth and don't want to because you would rather believe in your perceptions or opinions about truth you waste your life away in a sea of false religion/perceptions and never progress and get stuck in your delusions with misery and suffering.

Ted
30th July 2015, 17:48
I don't think anyone can say what the ultimate truth is until it is experienced. Saying this belief is true and another is false, without possessing all knowledge, is just a limited judgement.
In this reality everything is relative.

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 17:48
Question for Troy:

"So what is the truth?
1. It is what god believes."

So what were to happen if I were not to" believe" in what god believes...?

Your emotional condition would distort, creating painful emotions like fear, guilt, shame, grief, ect. When you witness something, that info travels up your consciousness to your soul and is reflected back (what Shambhala Buddhism calls the Great Cosmic Mirror), filtered through that false emotional perception and resulting in choices and thoughts that are not based in absolute truth or intelligence. In other words, you become insane. To believe in something that doesn't exist is be to be insane. When you believe in things that don't exist the painful emotions, which is a complete distortion of reality, is the cause of duality consciousness (technically triality - body, mind and soul) which severely shortens your lifespan, creates the condition in the body for disease, aging and death. So what happens is that you become miserable. This is why teacher like Jesus says things like "the truth will set you free" of the misery and unconscious fate-based behavioral reactions and choices causing you become a slave to your own soul's condition.

So when a person's beliefs are distorted their perceptions of things get twisted. For example, some people believe god is a punishing god but in reality and truth god is helping us all get into a state of truth by helping us understand truth through the the experience and feeling of. When a person is deluded with "their truth" (aka false beliefs) they tend to think and believe reality is different than what it is. Religions are created by people with false beliefs. So they think god is a punishing god so therefore, it is godly to punish people when that is only violating people. So the gods of religions technically don't exist because those perceptions are nothing more like false beliefs, like the distorted shapes. Some believe in reincarnation because they perceive spirit influence, communication, attachments, and possession, but that doesn't mean they "reincarnated". Reincarnation is a perception about an event/experience and not a truth. Those things don't exist just because they're perceived that way. So what happens is if you don't believe in truth and don't want to because you would rather believe in your perceptions or opinions about truth you waste your life away in a sea of false religion/perceptions and never progress and get stuck in your delusions with misery and suffering.

Very interesting...
And which God would that be?

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 17:54
I don't think anyone can say what the ultimate truth is until it is experienced. Saying this belief is true and another is false, without possessing all knowledge, is just a limited judgement.
In this reality everything is relative.

:thumbsup: Agreed!
Mutual respect and understanding for each others beliefs is the road to a peaceful society and happiness.

Troy Martin
30th July 2015, 19:04
I don't think anyone can say what the ultimate truth is until it is experienced. Saying this belief is true and another is false, without possessing all knowledge, is just a limited judgement.
In this reality everything is relative.

:thumbsup: Agreed!
Mutual respect and understanding for each others beliefs is the road to a peaceful society and happiness.

Do you think it is wise to respect a person's false beliefs? What if a person believes that voting and paying taxes is beneficial for society but do so empowers a psychotic government that commits genocide of millions of people? What's to respect about that? Where's the "peaceful society and happiness" when a person's diluted belief system supports the practices of torturing and killing people? This is why it matters what people believe because their actions can and will harm others, for sure. When people no longer care how their actions affect others they turn into apathetic sociopaths. I have no respect for those people. Instead, I feel sorry for and have pity for them. And for those who violate others including indirectly justice should be done upon them by restriction their free will to harm others, regardless of how it's done.

Ted
30th July 2015, 20:36
Do you think it is wise to respect a person's false beliefs? What if a person believes that voting and paying taxes is beneficial for society but do so empowers a psychotic government that commits genocide of millions of people? What's to respect about that? Where's the "peaceful society and happiness" when a person's diluted belief system supports the practices of torturing and killing people? This is why it matters what people believe because their actions can and will harm others, for sure. When people no longer care how their actions affect others they turn into apathetic sociopaths. I have no respect for those people. Instead, I feel sorry for and have pity for them. And for those who violate others including indirectly justice should be done upon them by restriction their free will to harm others, regardless of how it's done.Respecting someones beliefs and endorsing those beliefs are two different things. We have the right to believe what we want.
We respect other's beliefs because we want our own beliefs respected. That doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about it, or even argue about it.
I'll say it again, there are many pathways and roads through life which all eventually lead to the same place. There is no single path!

Ted
30th July 2015, 21:11
OK, let's pretend I'm your average Joe. I grew up in front of the TV, went to public school, got a job, got married, have a couple of kids and own a home in the burbs. I never read books, only read the sports section of the paper, watch the usual drivel on TV every night and love my truck. I vote for candidates who are in the same political party as my parents preferred, and have a firm belief that my government is good (even though there may be a few rotten apples). I'm as happy as I know how to be.
Now, who has the right to say I can't believe that I am totally correct in all that I assume to be true? I may not be correct, but I have the right to believe it. Who is going to declare themselves the absolute authority on all truth, and arbiter of all thought, and tell people what they can and can't believe? Do we want to go there?

Lost N Found
30th July 2015, 21:23
This is a very interesting thread. I posted some existentialism. Simply because that appears to be where the question of What is Truth seems to lead. In the Bible, Pilate asked Jesus, What is Truth, Jesus did answer but in a way that Pilate did not understand,. Now Troy has brought up God and brings up good answers or thoughts and opinions based on His belief in God. I too believe in God and Jesus Christ so I can relate to Troy quite well, Now WildOrchid asks the question of What God would that be? Well wildOrchid may or could very well have a different belief or though pattern as God or a supreme being or the Creator or maybe even has not been subjected to any knowledge of God. This is not for me to say, She may be only asking questions to understand that is a very good way to move through life. (Pardon me if I do not know a gender it is not meant to be hurtful or anything other than I am assuming only). Now here again it would seem that when I or you or anyone comes to our/their own conclusions of belief in this life then that becomes a truth to an individual. My truth is born in my heart and travels to my mind and soul. This is my contribution to this thread plus more when the moment arrives. This is an excellent thread and thank you all for being here and moving forward.

Love and light
Lost N Found

Lost N Found
30th July 2015, 21:42
Well Ted, You hit that nail on the head real well, You have done everything in your life that is expected of you to do. You were raised by loving parents, you went to the government controlled schools, you grew up and got married and had children and loved them all. You go to work to make a living and keep your family happy with a roof and food and you watch as you said the right amount of propaganda on the TV. You read the Sports only in the papers so that keeps you distracted from any other crap that may be going on around you. You go and VOTE for some party politician because your parents voted for that party so you do the same. Question? Do you put down the opposing party also? Say for instance if you are Repulicrat or democan or as Jesse Ventura has coined them as gangs Rebloodicons and democrips. You know or I am in hopes, that these parties are all one in same and your vote does not count for anything. Now I went off on some other thoughts, but you are right, you have the right to think and believe however you want and I do not think anyone wants to go there with you. Thanks for posting here.

Troy Martin
30th July 2015, 22:42
OK, let's pretend I'm your average Joe. I grew up in front of the TV, went to public school, got a job, got married, have a couple of kids and own a home in the burbs. I never read books, only read the sports section of the paper, watch the usual drivel on TV every night and love my truck. I vote for candidates who are in the same political party as my parents preferred, and have a firm belief that my government is good (even though there may be a few rotten apples). I'm as happy as I know how to be.
Now, who has the right to say I can't believe that I am totally correct in all that I assume to be true? I may not be correct, but I have the right to believe it. Who is going to declare themselves the absolute authority on all truth, and arbiter of all thought, and tell people what they can and can't believe? Do we want to go there?

The answer is an elder. Elders are not older people but rather people who are more knowledgeable about life, experienced and have more wisdom than another person. It's a matter of relativity. A parent is an elder because they have more experience and wisdom than a child. Would you agree with that? Just because a person is a physical adult doesn't mean that they are wise, intelligent, knowledgeable, sane, or incapable of harming others. So a person who is an elder would be able to see how they are harming others whereas the unconscious person has no care about how their life's choices, which is always based on what they belief, is affecting others. As Jesus said, you can know a person by what they do, meaning, people do what they believe in. If you are harming others that's because you believe in something that isn't a truth which causes your behavior to act in that way and so an elder has every right to take your freedom away from you and put you in prison (a time-out/go to your room - parental action) until you establish a new belief system that does NOT harm others. Prisons used to be called penitentiaries. And they called them that because was based on the word repent. A pen (cage) for where you can repent (change your beliefs). Repent is a term Jesus used to reset your false beliefs back into a state of truth so you're not doing things based on insane beliefs that end harming yourself and others. If you want to harm yourself, fine! Go ahead! But if you're harming others then everyone has every right to intervene and take your freedom to cause harm away from you until you change until you stop harming others. So say you have a right to do something that ends up being harmful to others is delusional because the word right comes from righteous and there is no righteousness in harming people or the planet. So if you are not righteous then those who are have every right to do the righteous thing and right the unhealthy thing back into a state of health, which is called enacting justice.

Selkie
30th July 2015, 23:07
OK, let's pretend I'm your average Joe. I grew up in front of the TV, went to public school, got a job, got married, have a couple of kids and own a home in the burbs. I never read books, only read the sports section of the paper, watch the usual drivel on TV every night and love my truck. I vote for candidates who are in the same political party as my parents preferred, and have a firm belief that my government is good (even though there may be a few rotten apples). I'm as happy as I know how to be.
Now, who has the right to say I can't believe that I am totally correct in all that I assume to be true? I may not be correct, but I have the right to believe it. Who is going to declare themselves the absolute authority on all truth, and arbiter of all thought, and tell people what they can and can't believe? Do we want to go there?

The answer is an elder. Elders are not older people but rather people who are more knowledgeable about life, experienced and have more wisdom than another person. It's a matter of relativity. A parent is an elder because they have more experience and wisdom than a child. Would you agree with that? Just because a person is a physical adult doesn't mean that they are wise, intelligent, knowledgeable, sane, or incapable of harming others. So a person who is an elder would be able to see how they are harming others whereas the unconscious person has no care about how their life's choices, which is always based on what they belief, is affecting others. As Jesus said, you can know a person by what they do, meaning, people do what they believe in. If you are harming others that's because you believe in something that isn't a truth which causes your behavior to act in that way and so an elder has every right to take your freedom away from you and put you in prison (a time-out/go to your room - parental action) until you establish a new belief system that does NOT harm others. Prisons used to be called penitentiaries. And they called them that because was based on the word repent. A pen (cage) for where you can repent (change your beliefs). Repent is a term Jesus used to reset your false beliefs back into a state of truth so you're not doing things based on insane beliefs that end harming yourself and others. If you want to harm yourself, fine! Go ahead! But if you're harming others then everyone has every right to intervene and take your freedom to cause harm away from you until you change until you stop harming others. So say you have a right to do something that ends up being harmful to others is delusional because the word right comes from righteous and there is no righteousness in harming people or the planet. So if you are not righteous then those who are have every right to do the righteous thing and right the unhealthy thing back into a state of health, which is called enacting justice.

So do you recommend jail time for false beliefs, or only for harmful actions? If you recommend jail time only for harmful actions, rather than for false beliefs, then what does a person's beliefs...true, false, or indifferent...have to do with anything?

p.s. Could you list some beliefs that you believe to be false? Also, could you list some beliefs that you believe to be true?

p.s. I would love to know who gets to decide which beliefs are false and which are true. Would we vote for such a dictator, or would he or she be self-appointed?

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 23:39
I don't think anyone can say what the ultimate truth is until it is experienced. Saying this belief is true and another is false, without possessing all knowledge, is just a limited judgement.
In this reality everything is relative.

:thumbsup: Agreed!
Mutual respect and understanding for each others beliefs is the road to a peaceful society and happiness.

Do you think it is wise to respect a person's false beliefs? What if a person believes that voting and paying taxes is beneficial for society but do so empowers a psychotic government that commits genocide of millions of people? What's to respect about that? Where's the "peaceful society and happiness" when a person's diluted belief system supports the practices of torturing and killing people? This is why it matters what people believe because their actions can and will harm others, for sure. When people no longer care how their actions affect others they turn into apathetic sociopaths. I have no respect for those people. Instead, I feel sorry for and have pity for them. And for those who violate others including indirectly justice should be done upon them by restriction their free will to harm others, regardless of how it's done.

Whoa...!
I thought this thread was about TRUTH...
And look were we have landed,..."psychotic government"!
Definitely not subject I would consider synonymous with TRUTH.

Back to topic...
Mutual respect and understanding for others does not imply giving consent or agreeing with all and everything! It simply means we grant the right to others to have and express their own views, to agree or disagree, and at the same time they grant that right to us.

Or would you prefer that someone who disagrees with you comes after you, just because they think your views don't fit with theirs, or are "false beliefs"? I kinda doubt it...

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 23:44
OK, let's pretend I'm your average Joe. I grew up in front of the TV, went to public school, got a job, got married, have a couple of kids and own a home in the burbs. I never read books, only read the sports section of the paper, watch the usual drivel on TV every night and love my truck. I vote for candidates who are in the same political party as my parents preferred, and have a firm belief that my government is good (even though there may be a few rotten apples). I'm as happy as I know how to be.
Now, who has the right to say I can't believe that I am totally correct in all that I assume to be true? I may not be correct, but I have the right to believe it. Who is going to declare themselves the absolute authority on all truth, and arbiter of all thought, and tell people what they can and can't believe? Do we want to go there?

The answer is an elder. Elders are not older people but rather people who are more knowledgeable about life, experienced and have more wisdom than another person. It's a matter of relativity. A parent is an elder because they have more experience and wisdom than a child. Would you agree with that? Just because a person is a physical adult doesn't mean that they are wise, intelligent, knowledgeable, sane, or incapable of harming others. So a person who is an elder would be able to see how they are harming others whereas the unconscious person has no care about how their life's choices, which is always based on what they belief, is affecting others. As Jesus said, you can know a person by what they do, meaning, people do what they believe in. If you are harming others that's because you believe in something that isn't a truth which causes your behavior to act in that way and so an elder has every right to take your freedom away from you and put you in prison (a time-out/go to your room - parental action) until you establish a new belief system that does NOT harm others. Prisons used to be called penitentiaries. And they called them that because was based on the word repent. A pen (cage) for where you can repent (change your beliefs). Repent is a term Jesus used to reset your false beliefs back into a state of truth so you're not doing things based on insane beliefs that end harming yourself and others. If you want to harm yourself, fine! Go ahead! But if you're harming others then everyone has every right to intervene and take your freedom to cause harm away from you until you change until you stop harming others. So say you have a right to do something that ends up being harmful to others is delusional because the word right comes from righteous and there is no righteousness in harming people or the planet. So if you are not righteous then those who are have every right to do the righteous thing and right the unhealthy thing back into a state of health, which is called enacting justice.

So do you recommend jail time for false beliefs, or only for harmful actions? If you recommend jail time only for harmful actions, rather than for false beliefs, then what does a person's beliefs...true, false, or indifferent...have to do with anything?

p.s. Could you list some beliefs that you believe to be false? Also, could you list some beliefs that you believe to be true?

p.s. I would love to know who gets to decide which beliefs are false and which are true. Would we vote for such a dictator, or would he or she be self-appointed?


Thank you Silkie. :)
I would like to know his answers to these questions too.

WildOrchid
30th July 2015, 23:48
I thought this quote is very fitting for this thread...
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.abovetopsecret.com%2Ffiles%2 Fimg%2Fsi518f074e.png&f=1

Loveisall21
30th July 2015, 23:56
The only things I know to be true (and I only speak for myself) is we have this thing called life that we are all experiencing. That love is the greatest force in the universe. And that there must be an original source for all this life and love. Beyond that everything else is always up for debate and revision.

Ted
31st July 2015, 00:03
Well Ted, You hit that nail on the head real well, You have done everything in your life that is expected of you to do. You were raised by loving parents, you went to the government controlled schools, you grew up and got married and had children and loved them all. You go to work to make a living and keep your family happy with a roof and food and you watch as you said the right amount of propaganda on the TV. You read the Sports only in the papers so that keeps you distracted from any other crap that may be going on around you. You go and VOTE for some party politician because your parents voted for that party so you do the same. Question? Do you put down the opposing party also? Say for instance if you are Repulicrat or democan or as Jesse Ventura has coined them as gangs Rebloodicons and democrips. You know or I am in hopes, that these parties are all one in same and your vote does not count for anything. Now I went off on some other thoughts, but you are right, you have the right to think and believe however you want and I do not think anyone wants to go there with you. Thanks for posting here.I think you may have missed the "let's pretend" part. Nevertheless, I was that guy for a while.

WildOrchid
31st July 2015, 00:18
This is a very interesting thread. I posted some existentialism. Simply because that appears to be where the question of What is Truth seems to lead. In the Bible, Pilate asked Jesus, What is Truth, Jesus did answer but in a way that Pilate did not understand,. Now Troy has brought up God and brings up good answers or thoughts and opinions based on His belief in God. I too believe in God and Jesus Christ so I can relate to Troy quite well, Now WildOrchid asks the question of What God would that be? Well wildOrchid may or could very well have a different belief or though pattern as God or a supreme being or the Creator or maybe even has not been subjected to any knowledge of God. This is not for me to say, She may be only asking questions to understand that is a very good way to move through life. (Pardon me if I do not know a gender it is not meant to be hurtful or anything other than I am assuming only). Now here again it would seem that when I or you or anyone comes to our/their own conclusions of belief in this life then that becomes a truth to an individual. My truth is born in my heart and travels to my mind and soul. This is my contribution to this thread plus more when the moment arrives. This is an excellent thread and thank you all for being here and moving forward.

Love and light
Lost N Found

I am not sure Lost N Found. Troy Martin did not answer that question...
But it could be very interesting to get answers from people with different denominations. :)

Lost N Found
31st July 2015, 00:19
Ted, I also was that guy, I was just taking that into something of truth not to say that is just pushing my own knowing out. I really did not feel that you are at the place like so many have been and still are. I was trying to play along with the Pretend. So thank you for responding to that.

Ted
31st July 2015, 00:31
Ted, I also was that guy, I was just taking that into something of truth not to say that is just pushing my own knowing out. I really did not feel that you are at the place like so many have been and still are. I was trying to play along with the Pretend. So thank you for responding to that.Sorry, I'm a little thick at times.

Lost N Found
31st July 2015, 00:42
This is a very interesting thread. I posted some existentialism. Simply because that appears to be where the question of What is Truth seems to lead. In the Bible, Pilate asked Jesus, What is Truth, Jesus did answer but in a way that Pilate did not understand,. Now Troy has brought up God and brings up good answers or thoughts and opinions based on His belief in God. I too believe in God and Jesus Christ so I can relate to Troy quite well, Now WildOrchid asks the question of What God would that be? Well wildOrchid may or could very well have a different belief or though pattern as God or a supreme being or the Creator or maybe even has not been subjected to any knowledge of God. This is not for me to say, She may be only asking questions to understand that is a very good way to move through life. (Pardon me if I do not know a gender it is not meant to be hurtful or anything other than I am assuming only). Now here again it would seem that when I or you or anyone comes to our/their own conclusions of belief in this life then that becomes a truth to an individual. My truth is born in my heart and travels to my mind and soul. This is my contribution to this thread plus more when the moment arrives. This is an excellent thread and thank you all for being here and moving forward.

Love and light
Lost N Found

I am not sure Lost N Found. Troy Martin did not answer that question...
But it could be very interesting to get answers from people with different denominations. :)

I follow you on the did not answer, perhaps Troy can tell us what denomination he may be affiliated with, then we can discuss that even deeper, As for me, I believe in The Creator and his Son, I do not attend any denominated church and do not believe in the man made religion that has been created by man alone. I have researched and read the Cannon Bible and a lot of the apocrypha that was intentionally left out of that book by the lawyers and roman Catholics that wanted to control the masses through their made up RELIGION. Jesus told us that the church was in our heart,. So buildings where people gather and have a government controlled pastor our not churches. I could talk about this for ever but if you are interested in researching the gnostic library and the apocrypha books then here is a link to look at, www.gnosis.org/library and you could also visit this web site if so inclined www.scriptural-truth which has a lot of the apocrypha books and connects it to the cannon bible. The man that has this site is Robert Ferrell. very interesting things there. Now once you do your research then you make your own determination on what God. Hope that helps some.

love and light
Lost N Found

Lost N Found
2nd August 2015, 21:06
Well since the name of this thread is "What is Truth" I though maybe some apocrypha on this subject may be something that all could peruse and comment on.

What Is Truth?
1. AGAIN the twelve were gathered together in the Circle of palm trees, and one of them even Thomas said to the other, What is Truth? for the same things appear different to different minds, and even to the same mind at different times. What, then, is Truth?
2. And as they were speaking Iesus appeared in their midst and said, Truth, one and absolute, is in God alone, for no man, neither any body of men, knoweth that which God alone knoweth, who is the All in All.. To men is Truth revealed, according to their capacity to understand and receive.
3. The One Truth hath many sides, and one seeth one side only, another seeth another, and some see more than others, according as it is given to them.
4. Behold this crystal: how the one light its manifest in twelve faces, yea four times twelve, and each face reflecteth one ray of light, and one regardeth one face, and another another, but it is the one crystal and the one light that shineth in all.
5. Behold again, When one climbeth a mountain and attaining one height, he saith, This is the top of the mountain, let us reach it, and when they have reached that height, lo, they see another beyond it until they come to that height from which no other height is to be seen, if so be they can attain it.
6. So it is with Truth. I am the Truth and the Way and the Life, and have given to you the Truth I have received from above. And that which is seen and received by one, is not seen and received by another. That which appeareth true to some, seemeth not true to others. They who are in the valley see not as they who are on the hill top.
7. But to each, it is the Truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher Truth shall be revealed unto the same: and to the soul which receiveth higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore condemn not others, that ye be not condemned.
8. As ye keep the holy Law of Love, which I have given unto you, so shall the Truth be revealed more and more unto you, and the Spirit of Truth which cometh from above shall guide you, albeit through many wanderings, into all Truth, even as the fiery cloud guided the children of Israel through the wilderness.
9. Be faithful to the light ye have, till a higher light is given to you. Seek more light, and ye shall have abundantly; rest not, till ye find.
10. God giveth you all Truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seemeth to day, ye will abandon for the higher truth of the morrow. Press ye unto Perfection.
11. Whoso keepeth the holy Law which I have given, the same shall save their souls, however differently they may see the truths which I have given.
12. Many shall say unto me, Lord, Lord, we have been zealous for thy Truth. But I shall say unto them, Nay, but, that others may see as ye see, and none other truth beside. Faith without charity is dead. Love is the fulfilling of the Law.
13. How shall faith in what they receive profit them that hold it in unrighteousness? They who have love have all things, and without love there is nothing worth. Let each hold what they see to be the truth in love, knowing that where love is not, truth is a dead letter and profiteth nothing.
14. There abide Goodness, and Truth, and Beauty, but the greatest of these is Goodness. If any have hatred to their fellows, and harden their hearts to the creatures of God’s hands, how can they see Truth unto salvation, seeing their eyes are blinded and their hearts are hardened to God’s creation?
15. As I have reveived the Truth, so have I given it to you. Let each receive it according to their light and ability to understand, and persecute not those who receive it after a different interpretation.
16. For Truth is the Might of God, and it shall prevail in the end over all errors. But the holy Law which I have given is plain for all, and just and good. Let all observe it for the salvation of their souls.
LECTION 90. 4. -The art of cutting and polishing glass and stone was well known in Phoenicia and Egypt, before the Christian era, and in Pompeii numbers of such crystals were found in great variety. It is a beautiful symbol appealing to the mind.
LECTION 90. 12. -Our Lord never damned or blamed those who could not see the divine truths, which he taught, and receive them. He had patience with them, as being without the fold, without light, and not admissible to the Kingdom, so long as they remained in their darkness and impenitence and self-doomed to eternal death if they persisted.

Lection 91
The Order of the Kingdom. (Part I.)
1. In that time after Iesus had risen from the dead he tarried ninety days with Mary his mother and Mary Magdalene, who anointed his body, and Mary Cleophas and the twelve, and their fellows, instructing them and answering questions concerning the kingdom of God.
2. And as they sat at supper—when it was even— Mary Magdalene asked him, saying, Master, wilt thou now declare unto us the Order of the Kingdom?
3. And Iesus answered and said, Verily I say unto thee, O Mary, and to each of any disciples, The kingdom of Heaven is within you. But the time cometh when that which is within shall be made manifest in the without, for the sake of the world.
4. Order indeed is good, and needful, but before all things is love. Love ye one another and all the creatures of God, and by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples.
5. AND one asked him saying, Master, wilt thou that infants be received into the congregation in like manner as Moses commanded by circumcision? And Jesus answered, For those who are in Christ there is no cutting of the flesh, nor shedding of blood.
6. Let the infant of eight clays be Presented unto the Father-Mother, who is in Heaven, with prayer and thanksgiving, and let a name be given to it by its parents, and let the presbyter sprinkle pure water upon it, according to that which is written in the prophets, and let its parents see to it that it is brought up in the ways of righteousness, neither eating flesh, nor drinking strong drink, nor hurting the creatures which God hath given into the hands of man to protect .
7. AGAIN one said unto him, Master, how wilt thou when they grow up? And Jesus said, After seven years, or when they begin to know the evil from the good, and learn to choose the good, let them come unto me and receive the blessing at the hands of the presbyter or the angel of the church with prayer and thanksgiving, and let them be admonished to keep from flesh eating and strong drink, and from hunting the innocent creatures of God, for shall they be lower than the horse or the sheep to whom these things are against nature?
8. And again he said, If there come to us any that eat flesh and drink strong drink, shall we receive them? And Iesus said unto him, Let such abide in the outer court till they cleanse themselves from these grosser evils; for till they perceive, and repent of these, they are not fit to receive the higher mysteries.
9. AND another asked him saying, When wilt thou that they receive Baptism? And Iesus answered, After another seven years, or when they know the doctrine, and do that which is good, and learn to work with their own hands, and choose a craft whereby they may live, and are stedfastly set on the right way. Then let them ask for initiation, and let the angel or presbyter of the church examine them and see if they are worthy, and let him offer thanksgiving and prayer, and bury them in the waters of separation, that they may rise to newness of life, confessing God as their Father and Mother, vowing to obey the Holy Law, and keep themselves separate from the evil in the world.
10. AND another asked him, Master, at what time shall they receive the Anointing? And Iesus answered, When they have reached the age of maturity, and manifested in themselves the sevenfold gifts of the Spirit, then let the angel offer prayer and thanksgiving and seal them with the seal of the Chrism. It is good that all be tried in each degree seven years. Nevertheless let it be unto each according to their growth in the love, and the wisdom of God.
LECTION 91. 5. -The idea of baptizing unconscious infants seems never to have entered the mind of Jesus. He blessed them, but he also blessed other animals, and things that had no sentient life. Baptism implies belief and confession of faith and repentance from evil works and ways.
LECTION 91. 6. -0ver 2,000 years before Christ there existed on the shores of Lake Meeris, in Egypt, a labyrinth of seven circular wall-enclosed winding paths, represented by Boticelli in one of his engravings, which we here reproduce adapted for Christian rites. This was used by the Egyptians in their initiations as a symbol of life, and the wanderings of the soul in the flesh, till "seven times seven" times purified and meet to appear before God. Cont
LECTION 91. 7-8. -In the Editor's former work "Palingenesia, or Earth's New Birth," 1884, incorporating some Ideas from this Gospel (part of which he had then received) these two rites referred to, by some oversight were transposed. Here, as in" Church of the Future" 1896, by the same Editor, the correct order is given. It is at present out of print.

Lection 92
The Order of the Kingdom. (Part II.)
1. AND another asked him saying, Master, wilt thou that there be marriages among us as it is among the nations of earth? And Iesus answered, saying, Among some it is the custom that one woman may marry several men, who shall say unto her, Be thou our wife and take away our reproach. Among others it is the custom, that one man may marry several women, and who shall say unto him, Be thou our husband and take away our reproach, for they who love feel it is a reproach to be unloved.
2. But unto you my disciples, I shew a better and more perfect way, even this, that marriage should be between one man and one woman, who by perfect love and sympathy are united, and that while love and life do last, howbeit in perfect freedom. But let them see to it that they have perfect health, and that they truly love each other in all purity, and not for worldly advantage only, and then let them plight their troth one to another before witnesses.
3. Then, when the time is come, let the angel or presbyter offer prayer and thanksgiving and bind them with the scarlet cord, if ye will, and crown them, and lead them thrice around the altar and let them eat of one bread and drink of one cup. Then holding their hands together, let him say to them in this wise, Be ye two in one, blessed be the holy union, you whom God doth join together let no man put asunder, so long as life and love do last.
4. And if they bear children, let them do so with discretion and prudence according to their ability to maintain them. Nevertheless to those who would be perfect and to whom it is given, I say, let them be as the angels of God in Heaven, who neither marry nor are given in marriage, nor have children, nor care for the morrow, but are free from bonds, even as I am, and keep and store up the power of God within, for their ministry, and for works of healing, even as I have done. But the many cannot receive this saying, only they to whom it is given.
5. AND another asked him saying, Master, in what manner shall we offer the Holy Oblation? And Iesus answered, saying, The oblation which God loveth in secret is a pure heart. But for a Memorial of worship offer ye unleavened bread, mingled wine, oil and incense. When ye come together in one place to offer the Holy Oblation, the lamps being lighted, let him who presideth, even the angel of the church, or the presbyter, having clean hands and a pure heart, take from the things offered, unleavened bread and mingled wine with incense.
6. And let him give thanks over them and bless them, calling upon the Father-Mother in Heaven to send their Holy Spirit that it may come upon and make them to be the Body and Blood, even the Substance and Life of the Eternal, which is ever being broken and shed for all.
7. And let him lift it up toward Heaven and pray for all, even for those who are gone before, for those who are yet alive, and for those who are yet to come As I have taught you, so pray ye, and after this let him break the bread and put a fragment in the cup, and then bless the holy union, and then let him give unto the faithful, saying after this manner, This is the body of the Christ even the substance of God (ever being broken and shed, for you and for all), unto eternal life. As ye have seen me do, so do ye also, in the spirit of love, for the words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.
LECTION 92. 4. -Here we have further proof, if any were needed, that Jesus was brought up in the tenets and customs of the Essenes. See "Christianity and Buddhism" (a remarkable book by Arthur Lillie) for the full discussion of the subject.
v. 6. -Similar were the rites of Mithra. From the days of Noah and Melchizedek these pure mysteries were celebrated -though not in the fulness of the light of Christ.

Lection 93
The Order of the Kingdom. (Part III.)
1. AND another spake, saying, Master, if one have committed a sin, can a man remit or retain his sin? And Iesus said, God forgiveth all sin to those who repent, but as ye sow, so also must ye reap; Neither God nor man can remit the sins of those who repent nor nor forsake their sins; nor yet retain the sins of those who forsake them. But if one being in the spirit seeth clearly that any repent and forsake their sins, such may truly say unto the penitent, Thy sins are forgiven thee, for All sin is remitted by repentance and amendment and they are loosed from it, who forsake it and bound to it, who continue it.
2. Nevertheless the fruits of the sin must continue for a season, for as we sew so must we reap, for God is not mocked, and they who sow to the flesh shall reap corruption, they who sow to the spirit shall reap life, everlasting. Wherefore if any forsake their sins and confess them, let the presbyter say unto such in this wise, May God forgive thee thy sins, and bring thee to everlasting life. All sin against God is forgiven by God, and sin against man by man.
3. AND another asked him, saying, If any be sick among us, shall we have power to heal even as thou dost? And Jesus answered, This power cometh of perfect chastity and of faith. They who are born of God keep their seed within them.
4. Nevertheless if any be sick among you, let them send for the presbyters of the church that they may anoint them with oil of olive in the Name of de Lord, and the prayer of faith, and the going out of power, with the voice of thanksgiving, shall raise them up, if they are not detained by sin, of this, or a former life.
5. AND another asked him saying, Master, how shall the holy assembly be ordered and who shall minister therein? And Jesus answered. When my disciples are gathered in my name let them choose from among themselves true and faithful men and women, who shall be ministers and counsellors in temporal things and provide for the necessities of the poor, and those who cannot work, and let these look to the ordering of the goods of the church, and assist at the Oblation, and let these be your deacons, with their helps.
6. And when these have given proof, of their ministry, let them choose from them, those who have spiritual gifts, whether of guidance, or of prophecy, or of preaching and of teaching and healing, that they may edify the flock, offer the holy Oblation and minister the mysteries of God and let these be your presbyter, and their helps.
7. And from these who have served well in their degree let one be chosen who is counted most worthy, and let him preside over all and he shall be your Angel. And let the Angel ordain the deacons and consecrate the presbyters—anoint them and laying their hands upon them and breathing upon them that they may receive the Holy Spirit for the office to which they are called. And as for the Angel let one of the higher ministry anoint and consecrate him, even one of the Supreme Council.
8. For as I send Apostles and Prophets so also I send Evangelists And Pastors—the eight and forty pillars of the tabernacle—that by the ministry of the four I may build up and perfect my Church. and they shall sit in Jerusalem a holy congregation, each with his helper and deacon, and to them shall the scattered congregations refer in all matters pertaining to the Church. And as light cometh so shall they rule and guide and edify and teach my holy Church. They shall receive light from all, and to all shall they give more light.
9. And forget not with your prayers and supplications intercessions and giving of thanks, to offer the incense, as it is written in the last of your prophets, saying, From the rising of the sun unto the setting of the same incense shall be offered unto My Name in all places with a pure oblation, for My Name shall be great among the Gentiles.
10. For verily I say unto you, incense is the memorial of the intercession of the saints within the veil, with words that cannot be uttered.

Lection 94
The Order of the Kingdom. (Part IV.)
1. AND another asked him, saying, Master, how wilt thou that we bury our dead? And Iesus answered, Seek ye council of the deacons in this matter, for it concerneth the body only. Verily, I say, unto you there is no death to those who believe in the life to come. Death, as ye deemed it, is the door to life, and the grave is the gate to resurrection, for those who believe and obey. Mourn ye not, nor weep for them that have left you, but rather rejoice for their entrance into life.
2. As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they return to the unseen, and so will they come again till they be purified. Let the bodies of them that depart be committed to the elements, and the Father-Mother, who reneweth all things, shall give the angels charge over them, and let the presbyter pray that their bodies may rest in peace, and their souls awake to a joyful resurrection.
3. There is a resurrection from the body, and there is a resurrection in the body. There is a raising out of the life of the flesh, and there is a falling into the life of the flesh. Let prayer be made For those who are gone before, and For those that are alive, and For those that are yet to come, for all are One family in God. In God they live and move and have their being.
4. The body that ye lay in the grave, or that is consumed by fire, is not the body that shall be, but they who come shall receive other bodies, yet their own, and as they have sown in one life, so shall they reap in another. Blessed are they who have worked righteousness in this life, for they shall receive the crown of life.
5. AND another asked him, saying, Master, under the law Moses clad the priests with garments of beauty for their ministration in the Temple. Shall we also clothe them to whom we commit the ministry of sacred things as thou hast taught us? And Iesus answered, White linen is the righteousness of the Saints, but the time truly cometh when Zion shall be desolate, and after the time of her affliction is past, she shall arise and put on her beautiful garments as it is written.
6. But seek ye first the kingdom of righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. In all things seek simplicity, and give not occasion to vain glory. Seek ye first to be clothed with charity, and the garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness.
7. For what doth it profit if ye have not these? As the sound of brass and tinkling of cymbal are ye, if ye have not love. Seek ye righteousness and love and peace, and all things of beauty shall be added to you.
8. AND yet another asked him, saving, Master, how many of the rich and mighty will enter into life and join us who are poor and despised. How, then, shall we carry on the work of God in the regeneration of mankind? And Iesus said, This also is a matter for the deacons of the church in council with the elders.
9. But when my disciples are come together on the Sabbath, at even, or in the morning of the first day of the week, let them each bring an offering of a tithe, or the tithe of a tithe of their increase, as God doth prosper them, and put it in the treasury, for the maintenance of the church and the ministry, and the works thereof. For I say unto you, it is more blessed to give than to receive.
10. So shall all things be done, decently and in order, And the rest will the Spirit set in order who proceedeth from the Father-Mother in heaven. I have instructed you now in first principles, and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the Age.
LECTION 94. 7. -From this, as from other words of the Master on previous occasions, it is evident that his servant Paul borrowed from him many of the ideas, and similes and wise sayings scattered through his Epistles, and not Paul only, but also the other Apostles. (See also verse 9).
v. 10. -It has been alleged that the laying down of rites and ordinances for Christianity has been the cause of division and strife in all countries. Nay, rather have not these divisions and dissensions been caused by the omission of the directions given by the One Head acknowledged by all during the period between his resurrection and ascension and the generation immediately after, and the handling of them down by that tradition so liable to corruption in place of the written record. But much more were these divisions and dissensions caused by the interpolation of dogmas not making for goodness and unity, by the suppression from the records of the vital essence in the holy law given by Iesus on the Mount, which, had it been preached and known and obeyed by all, would have made the earth a paradise in place of a hen for the weak and the helpless.

Lection 95
The Ascension.
1. AND Iesus after he had shewed himself alive to his disciples after his resurrection, and sojourned with them for ninety days, teaching and speaking of the Kingdom, and the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God, and had finished all things that he had to do, led forth the twelve with Mary Magdalene, and Joseph his father and Mary his mother, and the other holy women as far as Bethany to a mountain called Olivet, where he had appointed them.
2. And when they saw him as he stood in the midst of them, they worshipped him, but some doubted. And Iesus spake unto them, saying, Behold, I have chosen you from among men, and have given you the Law, and the Word of truth.
3. I have set you as the light of the world, and as a city that cannot be hid. But the time cometh when darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people, and the enemies of truth and righteousness shall rule in my Name, and set up a kingdom of this world, and oppress the peoples, and cause the enemy to blaspheme, putting for my doctrines the opinions of men, and teaching in my Name that which I have not taught, and darkening much that I have taught by their traditions.
4. But be of good cheer, for the time will also come when the truth they have hidden shall be manifested, and the light shall shine, and the darkness shall pass away, and the true kingdom shall be established which shall be in the world, but not of it, and the Word of righteousness and love shall go forth from the Centre, even the holy city of Mount Zion, and the Mount which is in the land of Egypt shall be known as an altar of witness unto the Lord.
5. And now I go to my Parent and your Parent, my God and your God. But ye, tarry in Jerusalem, and abide in prayer, and after seven days ye shall receive power from on high, and the promise of the Holy Spirit shall be fulfilled unto you, and ye shall go forth from Jerusalem unto all the tribes of Israel, and to the uttermost parts of the earth.
6. And having said these things, he lifted up his pure and holy hands and blessed them. And it came to pass that while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and a cloud, as the sun in brightness, received him out of their sight, and as he went up some held him by the feet and others worshipped him, falling to the earth on their faces.
7. And while they gazed steadfastly into heaven, behold two stood by them in white apparel, and said, Ye men of Israel, why stand ye gazing into thee, heaven; this same Jesus who is taken from you in a cloud, and as ye have seen him go into heaven, so shall he come again to the earth.
8. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is from the city a Sabbath day’s journey. And as they returned they missed Mary Magdalene, and they looked for her, but found her not. And some of the disciples said, The Master hath taken her, and they marvelled and were in great awe.
9. Now it was midsummer when Jesus ascended into heaven, and he had not yet attained his fiftieth year, for it was needful that seven times seven years should be fulfilled in his life.
10. Yea, that he might be perfected by the suffering of all experiences, and be an example unto all, to children and parents, to the married and the celibates, to youth and those of full age, yea, and unto all ages and conditions of mortal life.
LECTION 95. 5. -There is no doubt that the "power" here referred to means the spiritual power which we read of as exercised by the followers of Jesus and other great prophets in all ages more or less. Taking the various accounts in the Gospel and ecclesiastical history as correct, miracles (i.e., wondrous works wrought by the exercise of faith and will power and often by the uses of subtle forces of nature, quite natural, but seemingly supernatural to those in ignorance of these forces) were of frequent occurrences in those days, even as they are in these days, but better understood, false miracles being no proof of the non-existence of true ones. Often they would be the effect exercised on the minds and imaginations of vast numbers of the poor and afl1icted, the diseased and suffering of humanity by faith in some great champions of the oppressed, themselves destroyed by the oppressor, yet realised by faith, if not by actual knowledge as still living and acting, with hands outstretched to heal and bless those who invoked their aid.
v. 9. -From the testimony of the Jews, John viii. 57, A. V., it appears that Jesus at that time was not far from fifty years of age, and this is supported by S. lrenmus, 120-200 A.D., who appeals to the gospel as received by those of his day and to all the elders as testifying the same," those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, affirming that John conveyed to them this tradition." "Some of them," he says again, "not only saw John but the other Apostles also, and heard the very same tradition from them. Bond bear testimony to the truth of the statement."
The Editor of this Gospel has been credibly informed by an esteemed friend of his, "a Syrian Bishop," and a relative of the late learned Pope Pius IX., that he frequently (in private) assured him that he firmly held this (as a private opinion), the present time (1870) not being yet ripe for a public declaration on this and similar subjects, now introduced into the notes to this and other publications of the O.A.
LECTION 95. 8. -Mary Magdalene was chosen by our Lord as a type of the Church, in her fallen condition, redeemed by His love, and would be fitly one of the first fruits taken to be with her Lord, as Ioseph and Mary were after. She was the constant companion of Iesus' Ministry, to him she ministered of her substance, she anointed him for his Ministry, and for his Burial. She was the last at the Cross, and the first at the Tomb, and to her aJone He gave the commission, " Go tell Peter," and wheresoever the Gospel was to be preached, her love and devotion to her Master were to be declared.

Lection 96
The Pouring Out Of The Spirit.
1. AND as the disciples were gathered together in the upper room when they returned from the Mount, they all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, and their number was about one hundred and twenty.
2. And in that day James stood up and said; Men and brethren, it is known unto you how the Lord, before he left us, chose Peter to preside over us and watch over us in his Name; and how it must needs be that one of those who have been with us and a witness to his resurrection be chosen and appointed to take his place.
3. And they chose two called Barsabas and Matthias, and they prayed and said, Thou lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew which of these two thou hast chosen to take part in this Apostleship from which thou dost raise thy servant Peter to preside over us.
4. And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and the Twelve received him, and he was numbered among the Apostles.
5. Then John and James separated Peter from their number by laying on of hands, that he might preside over them in the Name of the Lord, saying, Brother be thou as a hewn stone, sixsquared. Even thou, Petros, which art Petra, bearing witness to the Truth on every side.
6. And to the Apostles were given staves to guide their steps in the ways of truth, and crowns of glory withal; and to the Prophets burning lamps to shew light on the path and censers with fire; and to the Evangelists the book of the holy law to recall the people to the first principles; and to the Pastors were given the cup and platter to feed and nourish the flock.
7. But to none was given aught that was not given to all, for all were one priesthood under the Christ as their Master Great High Priest in the Temple of God; and to the Deacons were given baskets that they might carry therein the things needful for the holy worship. And the number was about one hundred and twenty, Peter presiding over them.
8. AND when the third day had fully come they were all with one accord in the one place, and as they prayed there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and the room in which they were assembled was shaken, and it filled the place.
9. And there appeared cloven tongues of flame like fire, and sat upon the head of each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. And Peter stood up and preached the Law of Christ unto the multitude of all nations and tongues who were gathered together by the report of what had been seen and heard, each man hearing in his own tongue wherein he was born.
10. And of them that listened there were gathered unto the Church that day, three thousand souls, and they received the Holy Law, repented of their sins, and were baptized and continued stedfastly in the Apostles’ fellowship and worship, and the Oblation and prayers.
11. And they who believed gave up their possessions, and had all things in common and abode together in one place, shewing the love and the goodness of God to their brothers and sisters and to all creatures, and working with their hands for the common weal.
12. And from these there were called twelve to be Prophets with the Apostles, and twelve to be Evangelists and twelve to be Pastors, and their Helps were added unto them, and Deacons of the Church Universal, and they numbered one hundred and twenty. And thus was the Tabernacle of David set up, with living men filled with goodness, even as the Master had shewn unto them.
13. And to the Church in Jerusalem was given James the Lord’s brother for its president and Angel, and under him four and twenty priests in a fourfold ministry, and helpers and deacons also. And after six days many came together, and there were added six thousand men and women who received the holy Law of Love, and they received the word with gladness.
14. AND as they gathered together on the Lord’s Day after the Sabbath was past, and were offering the holy Oblation, they missed Mary and Joseph, the parents of Jesus. And they made search but found them not.
15. And some of them said, Surely the Lord hath taken them away, as he did Magdalene. And they were filled with awe, and sung praises to God.
16. And the Spirit of God came upon the Apostles and the Prophets with them and, remembering what the Lord had taught them, with one voice they confessed and praised God, saying.
17. We believe in One God: the Infinite, the Secret Fount, the Eternal Parent: Of Whom are all things invisible and visible. The ALL in all, through all around all. The holy Twain, in whom all things consist; Who hath been, Who is, Who shall be.
18. We believe in one Lord our Lady, the perfect holy Christ: God of God, Light of light begotten. Our Lord, the Father, Spouse and Son. Our Lady, the Mother, Bride and Daughter. Three Modes in one Essence undivided: One Biune Trinity. That God may be manifest as the Father, Spouse and Son of every soul: and that every soul may be perfected as the Mother, Bride and Daughter of God
19. And this by ascent of the soul into the spirit and the descent of the spirit into the soul. Who cometh from heaven, and is incarnate of the Virgin ever blessed, in Jesu-Maria and every Christ of God: and is born and teacheth the way of life and suffereth under the world rulers, and is crucified, and is buried and descendeth into Hell. Who riseth again and ascendeth into glory; from thence giving light and life to all.
20. We believe in the Sevenfold Spirit of God, the Life-Giver: Who proceedeth from the holy Twain. Who cometh upon Jesu-Maria and all that are faithful to the light within: Who dwelleth in the Church, the Israel elect of God. Who cometh ever into the world and lighteth every soul that seeks. Who giveth the Law which judgeth the living and the dead, Who speaketh by the Prophets of every age and clime.
21. We believe in One Holy Universal and Apostolic Church: the Witness to all truth, the Receiver and Giver of the same. Begotten of the Spirit and Fire of God: Nourished by the waters, seeds and fruits of earth. Who by the Spirit of Life, her twelve Books and Sacraments, her holy words and works: knitteth together the elect in one mystical communion and atoneth humanity with God. Making us partakers of the Divine Life and Substance: betokening the same in holy Symbols.
22. And we look for the coming of the Universal Christ: and the Kingdom of Heaven wherein dwelleth righteousness. And the holy City whose gates are Twelve: wherein are the Temple and Altar of God. Whence proceed three Orders in fourfold ministry: to teach all truth and offer the daily sacrifice of praise.
23. As in the inner so in the outer: as in the great so in the small. As above, so below: as in heaven so in earth. We believe in the Purification of the soul: through many births and experiences. The Resurrection from the dead: and the Life everlasting of the just. The Ages of Ages: and Rest in God for ever.—Amun.
24. And as the smoke of the incense arose, there was heard the sound as of many bells, and a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:
25. Glory, honour, praise and worship be to God; the Father,, Spouse, and Son: One with the Mother, Bride and Maid: From Whom proceedeth the Eternal Spirit: By whom are all created things. From the Ages of Ages. Now: and to the Ages of Ages—Amun—Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.
26. And if any man take from, or add, to the words of this Gospel, or hide, as under a bushel, the light thereof, which is given by the Spirit through us, the twelve witnesses chosen of God, for the enlightenment of the world unto salvation: Let him be Anathema Maranatha, until the coming of Christ Jesu-Maria, our Saviour, with all the Holy Saints.
27. For them that believe, these things are true. For them that believe not, they are as an idle tale. But to those with perceiving minds and hearts, regarding the spirit rather than the letter which killeth, they are spiritual verities.
28. For the things that are written are true, not because they are written, but rather they are written because they are true, and these are written that ye may believe with your hearts, and proclaim with your mouths to the salvation of many. Amen.
Here endeth the Holy Gospel of the Perfect Life of Jesu-Maria, the Christ, the Son of David after the Flesh, the Son of God after the Spirit. Glory be to God by Whose power and help it has been written.
LECTION 96. 1. -This number, 120, has many mystic significances, and was foreshadowed by the number of souls saved in the Ark at the Flood ("The Original Genesis"), which included 48 (i.e., double 7 + 34) + 72, a number of deep mystic significance.
v. 2. -The manifestations described here have been repeated in modern times. What God does in one age, whether by angels, spirits, or adepts in the flesh, the same unchanging God repeats in another. Whether the miracle respecting the preaching of Peter took place in the persons of the Apostles, or in their hearers, we have no means of ascertaining, but the fact remains. Most probably in the hearing of the hearers, so that each was enabled spiritually to understand. or else all were moved to speak and to hear in a tongue common to all. Cont
LECTION 96. 18. -This is most probably the oldest of the creed forms, if for a "creed" it was intended, long lost but now restored. It clearly expresses the faith and the practice of the Early Christian Church (reaching back, perhaps, in some truths, to the days before Noah), which we see glimpses of elsewhere in the writings that remain to us. The decree of the Church in her first general council at Jerusalem, founded on it as a deep psychological insight, and given under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit, is well known, though generally forgotten or ignored by Christians; for the logical deduction is total abstinence from flesh meat, which can only be obtained for food by the destruction of innocent life, whether by bloodshed or by strangling. And such destruction of life for selfish ends is placed with fornication and other deadly sins. Some portions of the Epistles of S. Paul in the A. V., notwithstanding all these, are manifestly interpolations of a later date after the discipline of the Church had been relaxed, and the evil customs Bond fashions of the world had sought and gained admission in the Church in union with a corrupt state. Both this symbol of Faith and the 12 Precepts of Jesus have been published before in a separate leaflet form in the year 1881.
v. 22. -It has been asserted by Church historians of all shades of opinion that incense was not used in the Christian Church till the fourth century. Here we have evidence of the contrary, and proof that in the early Church of Jeruslem It was in use at the time this Gospel was written. This with other ceremonies, ornament., etc., not peculiar to Iudaism (e.p. the high priest's golden plate or mitre, which S. James is Bald to have worn as president of the Church of Ierusalem), were retained. The truth seems to be that the use of it was laid aside for a time as a matter of expediency on account of the danger to the lives of the brethren, as it helped materially their persecutors to find out their hidden places of meeting. When the persecutions were over and the Church emerged from the concealment of the catacombs into the light of open day in the fourth century, then it was resumed, and this was the only reason of what could exist, for its discontinuance being of divine appointment as we have seen, though not essentially necessary any more perhaps than music, or lights or vestments.
v. 22. -Probably as a traditional memory of this recorded event, a peculiar custom exists in the East to this day. The Great Bell of the Kremlin Tower Is heard during the entire time of the chanting of the Creed. The same in other Oriental Churches, where every bell in the Church rings during the creed, as well as at the elevation and other parts of the Liturgy. (See O'Brien's "History of the Mass," &c.)
Again, referring to the Essenes as a religious body, the popular impression is that the Cenobite or Monastic life did not rise in Christendom till the Fourth Century. The fact is, it was coeval with, if not antecedent to, Christendom, as among the Essenes and Therapeutre, and even before them in the "school of the Prophets" in the Jewish Church. The Carthusian Monasteries in the Catholic Church give a good idea of these early monks and nuns, and their mode of life, &c. (See Arthur Lillies "Christianity and Buddhism," larger work). It is the natural outcome of earnestness and devotion, despised and rejected by the world that will not receive nor give heed to higher teachings but only to its own self-interests, insanities and follies, and reject the life of obedience to God's laws." Ye are the salt of the earth, a city set on a hill, a light shining in a dark place." Thus, with few exceptions, were these institutions of old, and still are, where the evil influence of the world has not crept in like a serpent coiling round the Tree of Life.
v. 26. -Here we subjoin the ancient Anathema omitted in the first Edition which we are now admonished to restore to the complete Edition as now published.

Lost N Found
2nd August 2015, 21:10
Ok here we go with number two.

The Testimony of Truth

Translated by Søren Giversen and Birger A. Pearson

I will speak to those who know to hear not with the ears of the body but with the ears of the mind. For many have sought after the truth and have not been able to find it; because there has taken hold of them the old leaven of the Pharisees and the scribes of the Law. And the leaven is the errant desire of the angels and the demons and the stars. As for the Pharisees and the scribes, it is they who belong to the archons who have authority over them.
For no one who is under the Law will be able to look up to the truth, for they will not be able to serve two masters. For the defilement of the Law is manifest; but undefilement belongs to the light. The Law commands (one) to take a husband (or) to take a wife, and to beget, to multiply like the sand of the sea. But passion, which is a delight to them, constrains the souls of those who are begotten in this place, those who defile and those who are defiled, in order that the Law might be fulfilled through them. And they show that they are assisting the world; and they turn away from the light, who are unable to pass by the archon of darkness until they pay the last penny.
But the Son of Man came forth from Imperishability, being alien to defilement. He came to the world by the Jordan river, and immediately the Jordan turned back. And John bore witness to the descent of Jesus. For it is he who saw the power which came down upon the Jordan river; for he knew that the dominion of carnal procreation had come to an end. The Jordan river is the power of the body, that is, the senses of pleasures. The water of the Jordan is the desire for sexual intercourse. John is the archon of the womb.
And this is what the Son of Man reveals to us: It is fitting for you (pl.) to receive the word of truth, if one will receive it perfectly. But as for one who is in ignorance, it is difficult for him to diminish his works of darkness which he has done. Those who have known Imperishability, however, have been able to struggle against passions [...]. I have said to you, "Do not build nor gather for yourselves in the place where the brigands break open, but bring forth fruit to the Father."
The foolish - thinking in their heart that if they confess, "We are Christians," in word only (but) not with power, while giving themselves over to ignorance, to a human death, not knowing where they are going nor who Christ is, thinking that they will live, when they are (really) in error - hasten towards the principalities and authorities. They fall into their clutches because of the ignorance that is in them. For (if) only words which bear testimony were effecting salvation, the whole world would endure this thing and would be saved. But it is in this way that they drew error to themselves. ...
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... they do not know that they will destroy themselves. If the Father were to desire a human sacrifice, he would become vainglorious.
For the Son of Man clothed himself with their first-fruits; he went down to Hades and performed many mighty works. He raised the dead therein; and the world-rulers of darkness became envious of him, for they did not find sin in him. But he also destroyed their works from among men, so that the lame, the blind, the paralytic, the dumb, (and) the demon-possessed were granted healing. And he walked upon the waters of the sea. For this reason he destroyed his flesh from [...] which he [...]. And he became [...] salvation [...] his death ...
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... everyone [...] how many they are! They are blind guides, like the disciples. They boarded the ship; at about thirty stadies, they saw Jesus walking on the sea. These are empty martyrs, since they bear witness only to themselves. And yet they are sick, and they are not able to raise themselves.
But when they are "perfected" with a (martyr's) death, this is the thought that they have within them: "If we deliver ourselves over to death for the sake of the Name we will be saved." These matters are not settled in this way. But through the agency of the wandering stars they say they have "completed" their futile "course", and [...] say, [...]. But these [...] they have delivered themselves ...
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... but they resemble [...] them. They do not have the word which gives life.
And some say, "On the last day we will certainly arise in the resurrection." But they do not know what they are saying, for the last day is when those belonging to Christ [...] the earth, which is [...]. When the time was fulfilled, he destroyed their archon of darkness [...] soul(s) ...
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... he stood [...] they asked what they have been bound with, and how they might properly release themselves. And they came to know themselves, who they are, or rather, where they are now, and what is the place in which they will rest from their senselessness, arriving at knowledge. These Christ will transfer to the heights, since they have renounced foolishness (and have) advanced to knowledge. And those who have knowledge ...
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... the great [...] resurrection [...], he has to come to know the Son of Man, that is, he has come to know himself. This is the perfect life, that man know himself by means of the All.
Do not expect, therefore, the carnal resurrection, which is destruction; and they are not stripped of it (the flesh) who err in expecting a resurrection that is empty. They do not know the power of God, nor do they understand the interpretation of the scriptures, on account of their double-mindedness. The mystery which the Son of Man spoke about, [...], in order that [...] destroy ...
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... man who [...] book, which is written [...] for they have ...
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... blessed [...] within them, and they dwell before God under the light yoke. Those who do not have the life-giving word in their heart will die; and in their thought they have become manifest to the Son of Man, according to the manner of their activity and their error [...] of this sort. They [...] as he divides the [...], and they do not understand that the Son of Man is coming from him.
But when they have come up to [...] sacrifice, they die in a human way, and they deliver themselves ...
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... a death ...
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... those who [...], they are many [...], each one [...] pervert [...] gain [...] their mind. Those who receive him to themselves with uprightness and power and every knowledge are the ones whom he will transfer to the heights, unto life eternal.
But those who receive him to themselves with ignorance, the pleasures which are defiled prevail over them. It is those people who used to say; "God created members for our use, for us to grow in defilement, in order that we might enjoy ourselves." And they cause God to participate with them in deeds of this sort; and they are not steadfast upon the earth. Nor will they reach heaven, but [...] place will [...] four ...
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... word [...] upon the Jordan river, when he came to John at the time he was baptized. The Holy Spirit came down upon him as a dove [...] accept for ourselves that he was born of a virgin and he took flesh; he [...] having received power. Were we also begotten from a virginal state or conceived by the word? Rather, we have been born again by the word. Let us therefore strengthen ourselves as virgins in the [...].
The males dwell [...] the virgin, by means of [...] in the word [...]. But the word of [...] and spirit ...
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... is the Father [...] for the man ...
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... like Isaiah, who was sawed with a saw, (and) he became two. So also the Son of Man divides us by the word of the cross. It divides the day from the night and the light from the darkness and the corruptible from incorruptibility, and it divides the males from the females. But Isaiah is the type of the body. The saw is the word of the Son of Man, which separates us from the error of the angels.
No one knows the God of truth except solely the man who will forsake all of the things of the world, having renounced the whole place, (and) having grasped the fringe of his garment. He has set himself up as a power; he has subdued desire in every way within himself. He has [...] and he has turned to him [...], having also examined [...] in becoming [...] the mind. And he [...] from his soul [...] there [...] he has ...
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... in what way [...] the flesh which [...] in what way [...] out of it, and how many powers does he have? And who is the one who has bound him? And who is the one who will loose him? And what is the light? And what is the darkness? And who is the one who has created the earth? And who is God? And who are the angels? And what is soul? And what is spirit? And where is the voice? And who is the one who speaks? And who is the one who hears? Who is the one who gives pain? And who is the one who suffers? And who is it who has begotten the corruptible flesh? And what is the governance? And why are some lame, and some blind, and some [...], and some [...], and some rich, and some poor? And why are some powerless, some brigands? ...
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... he having [...] as he again [...], fighting against thoughts of the archons and the powers and the demons, not giving them a place in which to rest. But he struggled against their passions [...], he condemned their error. He cleansed his soul from the transgressions which he had committed with an alien hand. He stood up, being upright within himself, because he exists in everyone, and because he has death and life within himself, and he exists in the midst of both of them. And when he had received the power, he turned towards the parts of the right, and he entered into the truth, having forsaken all things pertaining to the left, having been filled with wisdom, with counsel, with understanding, and with insight and an eternal power. And he broke open his bonds. Those who had formed the whole place, he condemned. But they did not find [...] hidden within him.
And he gave command to himself; he began to know himself and to speak with his mind, which is the father of the truth, concerning the unbegotten aeons, and concerning the virgin who brought forth the light. And he thinks about the power which flowed over the whole place, and which takes hold of him. And he is a disciple of his mind, which is male. He began to keep silent within himself until the day when he should become worthy to be received above. He rejects for himself loquacity and disputations, and he endures the whole place; and he bears up under them, and he endures all of the evil things. And he is patient with every one; he makes himself equal to every one, and he also separates himself from them. And that which someone wants, he brings to him, in order that he might become perfect (and) holy. When the [...], he grasped him, having bound him upon [...], and he was filled with wisdom. He bore witness to the truth [...] the power, and he went into Imperishability, the place whence he came forth, having left the world, which has the appearance of the night, and those that whirl the stars in it. This, therefore, is the true testimony: When man comes to know himself and God, who is over the truth, he will be saved, and he will crown himself with the crown unfading.
John was begotten by the World through a woman, Elizabeth; and Christ was begotten by the world through a virgin, Mary. What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age, but Christ passed through a virgin's womb. When she had conceived, she gave birth to the Savior. Furthermore, she was found to be a virgin again. Why, then do you (pl.) err and not seek after these mysteries, which were prefigured for our sake?
It is written in the Law concerning this, when God gave a command to Adam, "From every tree you may eat, but from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise do not eat, for on the day that you eat from it, you will surely die." But the serpent was wiser than all the animals that were in Paradise, and he persuaded Eve, saying, "On the day when you eat from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise, the eyes of your mind will be opened." And Eve obeyed, and she stretched forth her hand; she took from the tree and ate; she also gave to her husband with her. And immediately they knew that they were naked, and they took some fig-leaves (and) put them on as girdles.
But God came at the time of evening, walking in the midst of Paradise. When Adam saw him, he hid himself. And he said, "Adam, where are you?" He answered (and) said, "I have come under the fig tree." And at that very moment, God knew that he had eaten from the tree of which he had commanded him, "Do not eat of it." And he said to him, "Who is it who has instructed you?" And Adam answered, "The woman whom you have given me." And the woman said, "It is the serpent who instructed me." And he (God) cursed the serpent, and called him "devil." And he said, "Behold, Adam has become like one of us, knowing evil and good." Then he said, "Let us cast him out of paradise, lest he take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."
But what sort is this God? First he maliciously refused Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge, and, secondly, he said "Adam, where are you?" God does not have foreknowledge? Would he not know from the beginning? And afterwards, he said, "Let us cast him out of this place, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever." Surely, he has shown himself to be a malicious grudger! And what kind of God is this? For great is the blindness of those who read, and they did not know him. And he said, "I am the jealous God; I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children until three (and) four generations." And he said, "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said." But these things he has said to those who believe in him and serve him!
And in one place, Moses writes, "He made the devil a serpent <for> those whom he has in his generation." Also, in the book which is called "Exodus," it is written thus: "He contended against the magicians, when the place was full of serpents according to their wickedness; and the rod which was in the hand of Moses became a serpent, (and) it swallowed the serpents of the magicians."
Again it is written (Nm 21:9), "He made a serpent of bronze (and) hung it upon a pole ...
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... which [...] for the one who will gaze upon this bronze serpent, none will destroy him, and the one who will believe in this bronze serpent will be saved." For this is Christ; those who believed in him have received life. Those who did not believe will die.
What, then, is this faith? They do not serve ...
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... and you (pl.) [...] we [...] and you do not understand Christ spiritually when you say, "We believe in Christ". For this is the way Moses writes in every book. The book of the generation of Adam is written for those who are in the generation of the Law. They follow the Law and they obey it, and ...
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... together with the ...
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... the Ogdoad, which is the eighth, and that we might receive that place of salvation." But they know not what salvation is, but they enter into misfortune, and into a [...] in death, in the waters. This is the baptism of death which they observe ...
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... come to death [...] and this is [...] according to ...
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... he completed the course of Valentinus. He himself speaks about the Ogdoad, and his disciples resemble the disciples of Valentinus. They on their part, moreover, [...] leave the good, but they have worship of the idols ...
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... he has spoken many words, and he has written many books [...] words ...
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... they are manifest from the confusion in which they are, in the deceit of the world. For they go to that place, together with their knowledge, which is vain.
Isidore also, his son, resembled Basilides. He also [...] many, and he [...], but he did not [...] this [...] other disciple(s) [...] blind [...], but he gave them [...] pleasures ...
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... they do not agree with each other. For the Simonians take wives (and) beget children; but the [...] abstain from their [...] nature [...] a passion [...] the drops of [...] anoint them ...
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... which we [...] they agree with each other [...] him [...] they ...
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... judgment(s) [...] these, on account of the [...] them [...] the heretics [...] schism(s) [...] and the males [...] are men [...] will belong to the world-rulers of darkness ...
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... judge them [...]. But the [...] word(s) of ...
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... speak, while they [...] become [...] in a fire unquenchable [...] they are punished.
But these who are from the generation of the Son of Man have revealed to the [...] in all of the affairs ...
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... But it is difficult to [...] to find one [...] and two ...
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... For the Savior said to his disciples, [...] one in ...
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... and he has [...] wisdom, as well as counsel and understanding and intelligence and knowledge and power and truth. And he has some [...] from above [...], the place where the Son of Man ...
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... in a dream [...] silver [...]. But [...] becomes wealthy [...] among the authorities ...
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... But the sixtieth [...], thus [...] world [...] they [...] gold ...
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... they do not blaspheme [...] them not, neither is there any pleasure nor desire, nor can they control them. It is fitting that they should become undefiled, in order that they might show to every one that they are from the generation of the Son of Man, since it is about them that the Savior bore witness.
But those who are from the seed of Adam are manifest by their deeds, which are their work. They have not ceased from desire which is wicked [...]. But some [...] the dogs [...] the angels for [...] which they beget [...] will come [...] with their ...
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... move as they [...] on the day when they will beget children. Not only that, but they have intercourse while they are giving suck.
But others are caught up in the death of [...]. They are pulled <every> which way, (and) they are gratified by unrighteous Mammon. They lend money at interest; they waste time; and they do not work. But he who is father of Mammon is (also) father of sexual intercourse.
But he who is able to renounce them shows that he is from the generation of the Son of Man, (and) has power to accuse them. [...] he restrains [...] part(s) in a [...] in wickedness, and he makes the outer like the inner. He resembles an angel which ...
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... power [...] said them. But the one ...
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And having withdrawn [...], he became silent, having ceased from loquacity and disputations. But he who has found the life-giving word, and he who has come to know the Father of Truth, has come to rest; he has ceased seeking, having found. And when he found, he became silent. But few are the things he used to say to those that [...] with their intellectual mind the [...].
There are some, who upon entering the faith, receive a baptism on the ground that they have it as a hope of salvation, which they call the "seal", not knowing that the fathers of the world are manifest (in) that place. But he himself knows that he is sealed. For the Son of Man did not baptize any of his disciples. But [...], if those who are baptized were headed for life, the world would become empty. And the fathers of baptism were defiled.
But the baptism of truth is something else; it is by renunciation of the world that it is found. But those who say only with the tongue that they are renouncing it are lying, and they are coming to the place of fear. Moreover, they are humbled within it. Just as those to whom it was given to have been condemned, they shall get something!
They are wicked in their behavior! Some of them fall away to the worship of idols. Others have demons dwelling with them, as did David the king. He is the one who laid the foundation of Jerusalem; and his son Solomon, whom he begat in adultery, is the one who built Jerusalem by means of the demons, because he received power. When he had finished building, he imprisoned the demons in the temple. He placed them into seven waterpots. They remained a long time in the waterpots, abandoned there. When the Romans went up to Jerusalem, they discovered the waterpots, and immediately the demons ran out of the waterpots, as those who escape from prison. And the waterpots remained pure thereafter. And since those days, they dwell with men who are in ignorance, and they have remained upon the earth.
Who, then, is David? And who is Solomon? And what is the foundation? And what is the wall which surrounds Jerusalem? And who are the demons? And what are the waterpots? And who are the Romans? But these are mysteries ...
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... victorious over [...] the Son of Man [...] undefiled ...
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... and he [...] when he [...]. For [...] is a great ...
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... those that [...] all in a [...] blessed, and they [...] like a salamander. It goes into the flaming fire which burns exceedingly; it slithers into the furnace ...
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... the furnace ...
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... the boundaries [...], that they might see [...] and the power [...] sacrifice. Great is the sacrifice ...
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..., but in a [...] aside [...]. And the Son of Man [...], and he has become manifest through the bubbling fountain of immortality. ...
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... he is pure, and he is [...]. A free man is not envious. He is set apart from everyone, from every audacity and envy the power of which is great [...] is (a) disciple [...] pattern of law [...] these [...] only ...
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... they placed him under a [...] a teaching ...
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... his teaching, saying, "Even if an angel comes from heaven, and preaches to you beyond that which we preached to you, may he be anathema," (Gal 1:8) not letting the [...] of the soul which [...] freedom [...]. For they are still immature [...] they are not able to keep this law which works by means of these heresies - though it is not they, but the powers of Sabaoth - by means of the [...] the doctrines [...] as they have been jealous of some [...] law(s) in Christ. Those who will [...] power [...] they reach the [...] the twelve judge [...] them [...] the fountain of immortality ...
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... good [...] the whole place. [...] there the enemies. He baptized himself, and the [...] he became divine; he flew up, (and) they did not grasp him. [...] there the enemies [...], since it was not possible for them to bring him down again. If every [...] grasps him with ignorance, attending to those who teach in the corners by means of carved things and artful tricks, they are not able [...].
pp. 75-76 of codex missing

Selkie
2nd August 2015, 21:12
There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Lost N Found
2nd August 2015, 21:15
This is the third and final, I know these may be long in reading but most can read pretty quick or copy and paste to main computer for reading later when have time. Thank you all.

The Gospel of Truth

Translated by Robert M. Grant
The gospel of truth is joy to those who have received from the Father of truth the gift of knowing him by the power of the Logos, who has come from the Pleroma and who is in the thought and the mind of the Father; he it is who is called "the Savior," since that is the name of the work which he must do for the redemption of those who have not known the Father. For the name of the gospel is the manifestation of hope, since that is the discovery of those who seek him, because the All sought him from whom it had come forth. You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought.
This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth. This then, was not a humiliation for him, that illimitable, inconceivable one. For they were as nothing, this terror and this forgetfulness and this figure of falsehood, whereas this established truth is unchanging, unperturbed and completely beautiful.
For this reason, do not take error too seriously. Thus, since it had no root, it was in a fog as regards the Father, engaged in preparing works and forgetfulnesses and fears in order, by these means, to beguile those of the middle and to make them captive. The forgetfulness of error was not revealed. It did not become light beside the Father. Forgetfulness did not exist with the Father, although it existed because of him. What exists in him is knowledge, which was revealed so that forgetfulness might be destroyed and that they might know the Father, Since forgetfulness existed because they did not know the Father, if they then come to know the Father, from that moment on forgetfulness will cease to exist.
That is the gospel of him whom they seek, which he has revealed to the perfect through the mercies of the Father as the hidden mystery, Jesus the Christ. Through him he enlightened those who were in darkness because of forgetfulness. He enlightened them and gave them a path. And that path is the truth which he taught them. For this reason error was angry with him, so it persecuted him. It was distressed by him, so it made him powerless. He was nailed to a cross. He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery.
And as for him, them he found in himself, and him they found in themselves, that illimitable, inconceivable one, that perfect Father who made the all, in whom the All is, and whom the All lacks, since he retained in himself their perfection, which he had not given to the all. The Father was not jealous. What jealousy, indeed, is there between him and his members? For, even if the Aeon had received their perfection, they would not have been able to approach the perfection of the Father, because he retained their perfection in himself, giving it to them as a way to return to him and as a knowledge unique in perfection. He is the one who set the All in order and in whom the All existed and whom the All lacked. As one of whom some have no knowledge, he desires that they know him and that they love him. For what is it that the All lacked, if not the knowledge of the Father?
He became a guide, quiet and in leisure. In the middle of a school he came and spoke the Word, as a teacher. Those who were wise in their own estimation came to put him to the test. But he discredited them as empty-headed people. They hated him because they really were not wise men. After all these came also the little children, those who possess the knowledge of the Father. When they became strong they were taught the aspects of the Father's face. They came to know and they were known. They were glorified and they gave glory. In their heart, the living book of the Living was manifest, the book which was written in the thought and in the mind of the Father and, from before the foundation of the All, is in that incomprehensible part of him.
This is the book which no one found possible to take, since it was reserved for him who will take it and be slain. No one was able to be manifest from those who believed in salvation as long as that book had not appeared. For this reason, the compassionate, faithful Jesus was patient in his sufferings until he took that book, since he knew that his death meant life for many. Just as in the case of a will which has not yet been opened, for the fortune of the deceased master of the house is hidden, so also in the case of the All which had been hidden as long as the Father of the All was invisible and unique in himself, in whom every space has its source. For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross.
Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him. Having entered into the empty territory of fears, he passed before those who were stripped by forgetfulness, being both knowledge and perfection, proclaiming the things that are in the heart of the Father, so that he became the wisdom of those who have received instruction. But those who are to be taught, the living who are inscribed in the book of the living, learn for themselves, receiving instructions from the Father, turning to him again.
Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him. Therefore, if one has knowledge, he gets what belongs to him and draws it to himself. For he who is ignorant, is deficient, and it is a great deficiency, since he lacks that which will make him perfect. Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him and for each one to get the things which are his. He registered them first, having prepared them to be given to those who came from him.
Those whose name he knew first were called last, so that the one who has knowledge is he whose name the Father has pronounced. For he whose name has not been spoken is ignorant. Indeed, how shall one hear if his name has not been uttered? For he who remains ignorant until the end is a creature of forgetfulness and will perish with it. If this is not so, why have these wretches no name, why do they have no sound? Hence, if one has knowledge, he is from above. If he is called, he hears, he replies, and he turns toward him who called him and he ascends to him and he knows what he is called. Since he has knowledge, he does the will of him who called him. He desires to please him and he finds rest. He receives a certain name. He who thus is going to have knowledge knows whence he came and whither he is going. He knows it as a person who, having become intoxicated, has turned from his drunkenness and having come to himself, has restored what is his own.
He has turned many from error. He went before them to their own places, from which they departed when they erred because of the depth of him who surrounds every place, whereas there is nothing which surrounds him. It was a great wonder that they were in the Father without knowing him and that they were able to leave on their own, since they were not able to contain him and know him in whom they were, for indeed his will had not come forth from him. For he revealed it as a knowledge with which all its emanations agree, namely, the knowledge of the living book which he revealed to the Aeons at last as his letters, displaying to them that these are not merely vowels nor consonants, so that one may read them and think of something void of meaning; on the contrary, they are letters which convey the truth. They are pronounced only when they are known. Each letter is a perfect truth like a perfect book, for they are letters written by the hand of the unity, since the Father wrote them for the Aeons, so that they by means of his letters might come to know the Father.
While his wisdom mediates on the logos, and since his teaching expresses it, his knowledge has been revealed. His honor is a crown upon it. Since his joy agrees with it, his glory exalted it. It has revealed his image. It has obtained his rest. His love took bodily form around it. His trust embraced it. Thus the logos of the Father goes forth into the All, being the fruit of his heart and expression of his will. It supports the All. It chooses and also takes the form of the All, purifying it, and causing it to return to the Father and to the Mother, Jesus of the utmost sweetness. The Father opens his bosom, but his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self which is his son, so that through the compassion of the Father the Aeons may know him, end their wearying search for the Father and rest themselves in him, knowing that this is rest. After he had filled what was incomplete, he did away with form. The form of it is the world, that which it served. For where there is envy and strife, there is an incompleteness; but where there is unity, there is completeness. Since this incompleteness came about because they did not know the Father, so when they know the Father, incompleteness, from that moment on, will cease to exist. As one's ignorance disappears when he gains knowledge, and as darkness disappears when light appears, so also incompleteness is eliminated by completeness. Certainly, from that moment on, form is no longer manifest, but will be dissolved in fusion with unity. For now their works lie scattered. In time unity will make the spaces complete. By means of unity each one will understand itself. By means of knowledge it will purify itself of diversity with a view towards unity, devouring matter within itself like fire and darkness by light, death by life.
Certainly, if these things have happened to each one of us, it is fitting for us, surely, to think about the All so that the house may be holy and silent for unity. Like people who have moved from a neighborhood, if they have some dishes around which are not good, they usually break them. Nevertheless the householder does not suffer a loss, but rejoices, for in the place of these defective dishes there are those which are completely perfect. For this is the judgement which has come from above and which has judged every person, a drawn two-edged sword cutting on this side and that. When it appeared, I mean, the Logos, who is in the heart of those who pronounce it - it was not merely a sound but it has become a body - a great disturbance occurred among the dishes, for some were emptied, others filled: some were provided for, others were removed; some were purified, still others were broken. All the spaces were shaken and disturbed for they had no composure nor stability. Error was disturbed not knowing what it should do. It was troubled; it lamented, it was beside itself because it did not know anything. When knowledge, which is its abolishment, approached it with all its emanations, error is empty, since there is nothing in it. Truth appeared; all its emanations recognized it. They actually greeted the Father with a power which is complete and which joins them with the Father. For each one loves truth because truth is the mouth of the Father. His tongue is the Holy Spirit, who joins him to truth attaching him to the mouth of the Father by his tongue at the time he shall receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the manifestation of the Father and his revelation to his Aeons. He revealed his hidden self and explained it. For who is it who exists if it is not the Father himself? All the spaces are his emanations. They knew that they stem from him as children from a perfect man. They knew that they had not yet received form nor had they yet received a name, every one of which the Father produces. If they at that time receive form of his knowledge, though they are truly in him, they do not know him. But the Father is perfect. He knows every space which is within him. If he pleases, he reveals anyone whom he desires by giving him a form and by giving him a name; and he does give him a name and cause him to come into being. Those who do not yet exist are ignorant of him who created them. I do not say, then, that those who do not yet exist are nothing. But they are in him who will desire that they exist when he pleases, like the event which is going to happen. On the one hand, he knows, before anything is revealed, what he will produce. On the other hand, the fruit which has not yet been revealed does not know anything, nor is it anything either. Thus each space which, on its part, is in the Father comes from the existent one, who, on his part, has established it from the nonexistent. [...] he who does not exist at all, will never exist.
What, then, is that which he wants him to think? "I am like the shadows and phantoms of the night." When morning comes, this one knows that the fear which he had experienced was nothing. Thus they were ignorant of the Father; he is the one whom they did not see. Since there had been fear and confusion and a lack of confidence and doublemindness and division, there were many illusions which were conceived by him, the foregoing, as well as empty ignorance - as if they were fast asleep and found themselves a prey to troubled dreams. Either there is a place to which they flee, or they lack strength as they come, having pursued unspecified things. Either they are involved in inflicting blows, or they themselves receive bruises. Either they are falling from high places, or they fly off through the air, though they have no wings at all. Other times, it is as if certain people were trying to kill them, even though there is no one pursuing them; or, they themselves are killing those beside them, for they are stained by their blood. Until the moment when they who are passing through all these things - I mean they who have experienced all these confusions - awake, they see nothing because the dreams were nothing. It is thus that they who cast ignorance from them as sheep do not consider it to be anything, nor regard its properties to be something real, but they renounce them like a dream in the night and they consider the knowledge of the Father to be the dawn. It is thus that each one has acted, as if he were asleep, during the time when he was ignorant and thus he comes to understand, as if he were awakening. And happy is the man who comes to himself and awakens. Indeed, blessed is he who has opened the eyes of the blind.
And the Spirit came to him in haste when it raised him. Having given its hand to the one lying prone on the ground, it placed him firmly on his feet, for he had not yet stood up. He gave them the means of knowing the knowledge of the Father and the revelation of his son. For when they saw it and listened to it, he permitted them to take a taste of and to smell and to grasp the beloved son.
He appeared, informing them of the Father, the illimitable one. He inspired them with that which is in the mind, while doing his will. Many received the light and turned towards him. But material men were alien to him and did not discern his appearance nor recognize him. For he came in the likeness of flesh and nothing blocked his way because it was incorruptible and unrestrainable. Moreover, while saying new things, speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he proclaimed the faultless word. Light spoke through his mouth, and his voice brought forth life. He gave them thought and understanding and mercy and salvation and the Spirit of strength derived from the limitlessness of the Father and sweetness. He caused punishments and scourgings to cease, for it was they which caused many in need of mercy to astray from him in error and in chains - and he mightily destroyed them and derided them with knowledge. He became a path for those who went astray and knowledge to those who were ignorant, a discovery for those who sought, and a support for those who tremble, a purity for those who were defiled.
He is the shepherd who left behind the ninety-nine sheep which had not strayed and went in search of that one which was lost. He rejoiced when he had found it. For ninety-nine is a number of the left hand, which holds it. The moment he finds the one, however, the whole number is transferred to the right hand. Thus it is with him who lacks the one, that is, the entire right hand which attracts that in which it is deficient, seizes it from the left side and transfers it to the right. In this way, then, the number becomes one hundred. This number signifies the Father.
He labored even on the Sabbath for the sheep which he found fallen into the pit. He saved the life of that sheep, bringing it up from the pit in order that you may understand fully what that Sabbath is, you who possess full understanding. It is a day in which it is not fitting that salvation be idle, so that you may speak of that heavenly day which has no night and of the sun which does not set because it is perfect. Say then in your heart that you are this perfect day and that in you the light which does not fail dwells.
Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep. For you are this understanding which encourages. If the strong follow this course, they are even stronger. Turn your attention to yourselves. Do not be concerned with other things, namely, that which you have cast forth from yourselves, that which you have dismissed. Do not return to them to eat them. Do not be moth-eaten. Do not be worm-eaten, for you have already shaken it off. Do not be a place of the devil, for you have already destroyed him. Do not strengthen your last obstacles, because that is reprehensible. For the lawless one is nothing. He harms himself more than the law. For that one does his works because he is a lawless person. But this one, because he is a righteous person, does his works among others. Do the will of the Father, then, for you are from him.
For the Father is sweet and his will is good. He knows the things that are yours, so that you may rest yourselves in them. For by the fruits one knows the things that are yours, that they are the children of the Father, and one knows his aroma, that you originate from the grace of his countenance. For this reason, the Father loved his aroma; and it manifests itself in every place; and when it is mixed with matter, he gives his aroma to the light; and into his rest he causes it to ascend in every form and in every sound. For there are no nostrils which smell the aroma, but it is the Spirit which possesses the sense of smell and it draws it for itself to itself and sinks into the aroma of the Father. He is, indeed, the place for it, and he takes it to the place from which it has come, in the first aroma which is cold. It is something in a psychic form, resembling cold water which is [...] since it is in soil which is not hard, of which those who see it think, "It is earth." Afterwards, it becomes soft again. If a breath is taken, it is usually hot. The cold aromas, then, are from the division. For this reason, God came and destroyed the division and he brought the hot Pleroma of love, so that the cold may not return, but the unity of the Perfect Thought prevail.
This is the word of the Gospel of the finding of the Pleroma for those who wait for the salvation which comes from above. When their hope, for which they are waiting, is waiting - they whose likeness is the light in which there is no shadow, then at that time the Pleroma is about to come. The deficiency of matter, however, is not because of the limitlessness of the Father who comes at the time of the deficiency. And yet no one is able to say that the incorruptible One will come in this manner. But the depth of the Father is increasing, and the thought of error is not with him. It is a matter of falling down and a matter of being readily set upright at the finding of that one who has come to him who will turn back.
For this turning back is called "repentance". For this reason, incorruption has breathed. It followed him who has sinned in order that he may find rest. For forgiveness is that which remains for the light in the deficiency, the word of the pleroma. For the physician hurries to the place in which there is sickness, because that is the desire which he has. The sick man is in a deficient condition, but he does not hide himself because the physician possesses that which he lacks. In this manner the deficiency is filled by the Pleroma, which has no deficiency, which has given itself out in order to fill the one who is deficient, so that grace may take him, then, from the area which is deficient and has no grace. Because of this a diminishing occurred in the place which there is no grace, the area where the one who is small, who is deficient, is taken hold of.
He revealed himself as a Pleroma, i.e., the finding of the light of truth which has shined towards him, because he is unchangeable. For this reason, they who have been troubled speak about Christ in their midst so that they may receive a return and he may anoint them with the ointment. The ointment is the pity of the Father, who will have mercy on them. But those whom he has anointed are those who are perfect. For the filled vessels are those which are customarily used for anointing. But when an anointing is finished, the vessel is usually empty, and the cause of its deficiency is the consumption of its ointment. For then a breath is drawn only through the power which he has. But the one who is without deficiency - one does not trust anyone beside him nor does one pour anything out. But that which is the deficient is filled again by the perfect Father. He is good. He knows his plantings because he is the one who has planted them in his Paradise. And his Paradise is his place of rest.
This is the perfection in the thought of the Father and these are the words of his reflection. Each one of his words is the work of his will alone, in the revelation of his Logos. Since they were in the depth of his mind, the Logos, who was the first to come forth, caused them to appear, along with an intellect which speaks the unique word by means of a silent grace. It was called "thought," since they were in it before becoming manifest. It happened, then, that it was the first to come forth - at the moment pleasing to the will of him who desired it; and it is in the will that the Father is at rest and with which he is pleased. Nothing happens without him, nor does anything occur without the will of the Father. But his will is incomprehensible. His will is his mark, but no one can know it, nor is it possible for them to concentrate on it in order to possess it. But that which he wishes takes place at the moment he wishes it - even if the view does not please anyone: it is God`s will. For the Father knows the beginning of them all as well as their end. For when their end arrives, he will question them to their faces. The end, you see, is the recognition of him who is hidden, that is, the Father, from whom the beginning came forth and to whom will return all who have come from him. For they were made manifest for the glory and the joy of his name.
And the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who, in the beginning, gave a name to him who came forth from him - he is the same one - and he begat him for a son. He gave him his name which belonged to him - he, the Father, who possesses everything which exists around him. He possess the name; he has the son. It is possible for them to see him. The name, however, is invisible, for it alone is the mystery of the invisible about to come to ears completely filled with it through the Father`s agency. Moreover, as for the Father, his name is not pronounced, but it is revealed through a son. Thus, then, the name is great.
Who, then, has been able to pronounce a name for him, this great name, except him alone to whom the name belongs and the sons of the name in whom the name of the Father is at rest, and who themselves in turn are at rest in his name, since the Father has no beginning? It is he alone who engendered it for himself as a name in the beginning before he had created the Aeons, that the name of the Father should be over their heads as a lord - that is, the real name, which is secure by his authority and by his perfect power. For the name is not drawn from lexicons nor is his name derived from common name-giving, But it is invisible. He gave a name to himself alone, because he alone saw it and because he alone was capable of giving himself a name. For he who does not exist has no name. For what name would one give him who did not exist? Nevertheless, he who exists also with his name and he alone knows it, and to him alone the Father gave a name. The Son is his name. He did not, therefore, keep it secretly hidden, but the son came into existence. He himself gave a name to him. The name, then, is that of the Father, just as the name of the Father is the Son. For otherwise, where would compassion find a name - outside of the Father? But someone will probably say to his companion, "Who would give a name to someone who existed before himself, as if, indeed, children did not receive their name from one of those who gave them birth?"
Above all, then, it is fitting for us to think this point over: What is the name? It is the real name. It is, indeed, the name which came from the Father, for it is he who owns the name. He did not, you see, get the name on loan, as in the case of others because of the form in which each one of them is going to be created. This, then, is the authoritative name. There is no one else to whom he has given it. But it remained unnamed, unuttered, `till the moment when he, who is perfect, pronounced it himself; and it was he alone who was able to pronounce his name and to see it. When it pleased him, then, that his son should be his pronounced name and when he gave this name to him, he who has come from the depth spoke of his secrets, because he knew that the Father was absolute goodness. For this reason, indeed, he sent this particular one in order that he might speak concerning the place and his place of rest from which he had come forth, and that he might glorify the Pleroma, the greatness of his name and the sweetness of his Father.
Each one will speak concerning the place from which he has come forth, and to the region from which he received his essential being, he will hasten to return once again. And he want from that place - the place where he was - because he tasted of that place, as he was nourished and grew. And his own place of rest is his Pleroma. All the emanations from the Father, therefore, are Pleromas, and all his emanations have their roots in the one who caused them all to grow from himself. He appointed a limit. They, then, became manifest individually in order that they might be in their own thought, for that place to which they extend their thoughts is their root, which lifts them upward through all heights to the Father. They reach his head, which is rest for them, and they remain there near to it so that they say that they have participated in his face by means of embraces. But these of this kind were not manifest, because they have not risen above themselves. Neither have they been deprived of the glory of the Father nor have they thought of him as small, nor bitter, nor angry, but as absolutely good, unperturbed, sweet, knowing all the spaces before they came into existence and having no need of instruction. Such are they who possess from above something of this immeasurable greatness, as they strain towards that unique and perfect one who exists there for them. And they do not go down to Hades. They have neither envy nor moaning, nor is death in them. But they rest in him who rests, without wearying themselves or becoming involved in the search for truth. But, they, indeed, are the truth, and the Father is in them, and they are in the Father, since they are perfect, inseparable from him who is truly good. They lack nothing in any way, but they are given rest and are refreshed by the Spirit. And they listen to their root; they have leisure for themselves, they in whom he will find his root, and he will suffer no loss to his soul.
Such is the place of the blessed; this is their place. As for the rest, then, may they know, in their place, that it does not suit me, after having been in the place of rest to say anything more. But he is the one in whom I shall be in order to devote myself, at all times, to the Father of the All and the true brothers, those upon whom the love of the Father is lavished, and in whose midst nothing of him is lacking. It is they who manifest themselves truly since they are in that true and eternal life and speak of the perfect light filled with the seed of the Father, and which is in his heart and in the Pleroma, while his Spirit rejoices in it and glorifies him in whom it was, because the Father is good. And his children are perfect and worthy of his name, because he is the Father. Children of this kind are those whom he loves

bogeyman
2nd August 2015, 21:35
The truth doesn't lie within the thought processes that man is thinking at present it lies within the non physical realms, the spiritual, many of which don't even consider to even exist. It is also a matter or perception but the truth isn't a fluid.

Bluegreen
2nd August 2015, 21:41
"What's true for you is true for you."
- L. Ron Hubbard

Troy Martin
2nd August 2015, 21:56
There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Your hair stands on end because what you wrote is a false belief. False beliefs are experienced as a disturbance in your consciousness. Truth doesn't feel bad.

History has people killing people to enforce false beliefs in order to control humanity. And some people actually believe that good people containing evil so that peace can be had is evil.

Selkie
2nd August 2015, 21:57
There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Your hair stands on end because what you wrote is a false belief.

And what "false belief" is that, exactly?

Troy Martin
2nd August 2015, 23:50
There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Your hair stands on end because what you wrote is a false belief.

And what "false belief" is that, exactly?

The part of my post that you cannot accept that you deleted or omitted out of the quote.

This is the second time you asked me a question about something I already stated.

Selkie
3rd August 2015, 00:09
There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Your hair stands on end because what you wrote is a false belief.

And what "false belief" is that, exactly?

The part of my post that you cannot accept that you deleted out of the quote.

This is the second time you asked me a question about something I already stated in the very quote in your own post.

Here is the full exchange:



There is nothing wrong with someone thinking that they have found THE TRUTH. The problem arises when they start wanting...and trying...to force others who do not agree to accept those beliefs. When people start talking about "false beliefs", it makes my hair stand on end. I thought the west was done with the nonsense of "false beliefs". I think enough blood has been spilled in the attempt to eradicate "false beliefs" and enforce "truth".

Your hair stands on end because what you wrote is a false belief. False beliefs are experienced as a disturbance in your consciousness. Truth doesn't feel bad.

History has people killing people to enforce false beliefs in order to control humanity. And some people actually believe that good people containing evil so that peace can be had is evil.

Now, what is that false belief, exactly?

WildOrchid
3rd August 2015, 00:38
Troy:
You seem to be an expert on the subject of "false beliefs". All Silkie, I, and possibly others would like to know is what in your view "false beliefs" are. You state "false beliefs" in plural, which implies more than one. Please list them to clarify this point for us. Thank you. :)

WildOrchid
3rd August 2015, 00:50
"What's true for you is true for you."
- L. Ron Hubbard
AGREED! :)
Life is really simple, so why make it complicated...

Lost N Found
3rd August 2015, 01:01
Troy, I am of the same thought as Silkie and Wildorchid. I would really like to know your thoughts and possibly some irrefutable evidence/research you can produce that may or may not convince us of these "False beliefs" you are talking about. Now do not take me wrong or argumentative because I do see that you have your own belief of what is truth and that is as it should be. We are all just searching in our lives for the or a truth, so discourse is all we ask if someone is so sure about what they are saying. Everyone of us has come to some conclusion of truth throughout our short time in this plane of existence and to talk with others that travel this plane also, to understand other knowings is always good and positive, it brings the light so much more brighter. Thank you.

Selkie
3rd August 2015, 01:02
It is very dangerous when people start talking about "false" vs "true" beliefs because then you are in the realm of inquisitions, and I don't think anyone really wants to go there again.

loveoflife
3rd August 2015, 15:26
Agreed. It would appear that truth for some means argument and dissent.


When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.

- William Blake

loveoflife
3rd August 2015, 16:40
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11796396_936151499763756_1954958268889748071_n.jpg ?oh=418868a889cdb4ed6815816a47a42e48&oe=565B23BD

Roxann
4th August 2015, 19:05
The question really becomes complicated when one considers the possibility of a multiverse where each person may indeed be existing in his/her own universe with its own laws, events, etc., and the places where we meet each other are only the intersections of these universes. What exists beyond these meeting points may well be unique and different for each person.

Troy Martin
4th August 2015, 19:47
It would be wiser on your part, those of you who do not know or understand what I'm referring to, to figure it out amongst yourselves, primarily because the answer you seek is as obvious as the nose on your face and you're just not seeing it. My response with a quote was only five sentences. God doesn't figure things out for us by telling us the answer to everything. God doesn't do this because he isn't going to do for us what we can for ourselves.

You're also asking for "my view". I don't have one because "my view" would only be a partial truth, if that even. I don't value views and don't feel that it is wise to express them because a view like an opinion and an opinion is someone's belief before they come into truth, which means that an opinion or a view is a false belief - a distorted view of what is experienced. Sharing a false belief isn't helping anyone. And because you're not wanting to know "the truth" but rather a view there no wisdom in sharing anything at all because a person who doesn't want to know it will not hear it or ever come to know it. That's why you ask when I've already expressed it. One has eyes but cannot see...

Roxann
4th August 2015, 20:59
And angels won't just hand us an answer when our highest good requires that we go through the experience of figuring something out for ourselves. "It is an exercise for the student." I've had the experience of asking and being told that already. It was an interesting year. No one can dictate my truth for me, including Jesus.

Lost N Found
4th August 2015, 21:06
So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus. Yet you know not what Jesus did teach us, so is it you that has eyes but does not see? or could it be all of us? With respect to what Jesus is saying in this writing. If you are of a Man made label and you tell us that we will go to hell if we do not believe the same as you. Then I say that you are a pharisee or Sadducee as Jesus said in the written words as professed by the Bible. I am not trying to argue or be judgmental to you for what you see or believe, all any of us were looking for was a good discourse on what this thread is about. Now spread the good word and knowledge with a loving heart and understand that what we all may read and see in the Canon Bible today may be false in its writing simply because when the bible was discussed in 312 ad it was brought about through politics and men who wanted to control all of humanity. Have you studied the gnostic writings, The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jascher, or any of the Apocrypha that was left out of tje Canon Bible because these men called the writings Heresy to get what they wanted? We all could be wrong in what we believe and will see at the end and in that case I still love all. Thank you for being here and posting what you do.

Love and light
Lost N Found

Selkie
4th August 2015, 21:24
It would be wiser on your part, those of you who do not know or understand what I'm referring to, to figure it out amongst yourselves, primarily because the answer you seek is as obvious as the nose on your face and you're just not seeing it. My response with a quote was only five sentences. God doesn't figure things out for us by telling us the answer to everything. God doesn't do this because he isn't going to do for us what we can for ourselves.

You're also asking for "my view". I don't have one because "my view" would only be a partial truth, if that even. I don't value views and don't feel that it is wise to express them because a view like an opinion and an opinion is someone's belief before they come into truth, which means that an opinion or a view is a false belief - a distorted view of what is experienced. Sharing a false belief isn't helping anyone. And because you're not wanting to know "the truth" but rather a view there no wisdom in sharing anything at all because a person who doesn't want to know it will not hear it or ever come to know it. That's why you ask when I've already expressed it. One has eyes but cannot see...


And angels won't just hand us an answer when our highest good requires that we go through the experience of figuring something out for ourselves. "It is an exercise for the student." I've had the experience of asking and being told that already. It was an interesting year. No one can dictate my truth for me, including Jesus.

Re-posting this here,


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=983476&viewfull=1#post983476

There may be no such thing as absolute truth, but there is such a thing as absolute bull****.

That's a comic aphorism, but it points to something that I think is very important: We can never really be sure what other people are experiencing or how they perceive reality, but we are capable of both fooling ourselves and of digging ourselves out of self-deception. Self-deception is the worst trap there is, and we have to be really rigorous with ourselves in terms of discovering our own truths and untruths.

The people who seem to be most intent on enforcing their own idea of truth on other people are precisely those people who are pulling the wool over their own eyes. In order to maintain their self-deception they want everyone else to agree with them, loudly and immediately. At gunpoint if need be.

I think truth is a direction, and healing or growth means to go in that direction. For different people in different places it may not seem to be the same direction. But that's just because they're fooling themselves in different ways.

Troy Martin
4th August 2015, 22:14
So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus. Yet you know not what Jesus did teach us, so is it you that has eyes but does not see? or could it be all of us? With respect to what Jesus is saying in this writing. If you are of a Man made label and you tell us that we will go to hell if we do not believe the same as you. Then I say that you are a pharisee or Sadducee as Jesus said in the written words as professed by the Bible. I am not trying to argue or be judgmental to you for what you see or believe, all any of us were looking for was a good discourse on what this thread is about. Now spread the good word and knowledge with a loving heart and understand that what we all may read and see in the Canon Bible today may be false in its writing simply because when the bible was discussed in 312 ad it was brought about through politics and men who wanted to control all of humanity. Have you studied the gnostic writings, The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jascher, or any of the Apocrypha that was left out of tje Canon Bible because these men called the writings Heresy to get what they wanted? We all could be wrong in what we believe and will see at the end and in that case I still love all. Thank you for being here and posting what you do.

Love and light
Lost N Found

What you are claiming, assuming or insinuating about me or what I believe is a slanderous lie. Your post is as if you are talking about someone else entirely.

Selkie
4th August 2015, 22:20
So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus. Yet you know not what Jesus did teach us, so is it you that has eyes but does not see? or could it be all of us? With respect to what Jesus is saying in this writing. If you are of a Man made label and you tell us that we will go to hell if we do not believe the same as you. Then I say that you are a pharisee or Sadducee as Jesus said in the written words as professed by the Bible. I am not trying to argue or be judgmental to you for what you see or believe, all any of us were looking for was a good discourse on what this thread is about. Now spread the good word and knowledge with a loving heart and understand that what we all may read and see in the Canon Bible today may be false in its writing simply because when the bible was discussed in 312 ad it was brought about through politics and men who wanted to control all of humanity. Have you studied the gnostic writings, The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jascher, or any of the Apocrypha that was left out of tje Canon Bible because these men called the writings Heresy to get what they wanted? We all could be wrong in what we believe and will see at the end and in that case I still love all. Thank you for being here and posting what you do.

Love and light
Lost N Found

What you are claiming, assuming or insinuating about me or what I believe is a slanderous lie. Your post is as if you are talking about someone else entirely.

Lost N Found is not slandering you. But the fact that his post reads to you as if he is talking about someone else entirely should tell you something about yourself.

Lost N Found
4th August 2015, 22:46
Troy, I am so sorry that you feel this way about a simple discourse of trying to understand what may be another s belief. I was only trying to understand where you might be coming from with your posts. I am so sorry that you think I am being slanderous but as Silkie has said, you are only exposing your own self by saying this. I would hope and pray that you look deeper into your own soul to perhaps keep the number two commandment that Jesus gave us, Love thy neighbor as you would yourself.

Thank you Silkie, It would appear that you do follow that commandment.

Love and Light
Lost N Found

Troy Martin
4th August 2015, 23:31
Thank all of you for your contributions to this thread. It was a perfect opportunity to show people like Ruby who believes "a real teacher does not charge money" to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt what happens when a teacher does not filter the attendance of a class based on people who want to know truth. You get people who are completely addicted to their philosophy arguing with you, accusing you of things falsely and even going so far as to invent delusions and make accusations that have nothing to do with the truth about anything at all. There's a reason why Jesus said what he did in Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake". A teacher's job is to help heal the world, not entertain psychopaths. A person who speaks the absolute truth in an ocean of insanity will get attacked and be treated with disrespect and contempt without remorse or conscience and those people will go on to commit spiritual suicide.

That being said, moderators, feel free to delete my account. I am done here.

Lost N Found
5th August 2015, 00:03
Bye, God bless you.

Selkie
5th August 2015, 00:06
Thank all of you for your contributions to this thread. It was a perfect opportunity to show people like Ruby who believes "a real teacher does not charge money" to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt what happens when a teacher does not filter the attendance of a class based on people who want to know truth. You get people who are completely addicted to their philosophy arguing with you, accusing you of things falsely and even going so far as to invent delusions and make accusations that have nothing to do with the truth about anything at all. There's a reason why Jesus said what he did in Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake". A teacher's job is to help heal the world, not entertain psychopaths. A person who speaks the absolute truth in an ocean of insanity will get attacked and be treated with disrespect and contempt without remorse or conscience and those people will go on to commit spiritual suicide.

That being said, moderators, feel free to delete my account. I am done here.

Mr. Martin, you've only been here since the middle of May. Maybe you should stay awhile and see what happens. It could be that you have more to learn than you have to teach, and just don't know it.

Lost N Found
5th August 2015, 00:45
Silkie, that is some wonderful advice, I do believe that Troy has some very good understandings and has within his heart things we all can learn from and at the same time, we all have something within each of us that others can learn from also. I agree with you in your advice and Troy, please stay and give us all some understanding that you have so that we all can and may benefit towards our growth in this plane. Thank you.

Troy Martin
5th August 2015, 01:57
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Lost N Found
5th August 2015, 02:45
Thank you Troy for telling us why you came here, it is quit enlightening. I see that you were looking for folks that would sanction your endeavor in life and as you say, that would support your book and beliefs. I find that a bit sanctimonious and something like what David Wilcox does. Although, I did find your thoughts and conversation interesting I do not find your closing very loving towards your fellow man/women. I do believe that I will avoid this work you seem to think is important in your life and apparently for the world as you see it. I do take issue with your statements that you find no love here. The forum is designed to provide ideas of all and a discourse in understanding. So for you to come here as you have stated to find people that would support your book and ideas of how the world should be run and to state that it is the truth leaves my heart with a cold feeling about who you really might be. I am so sorry for you that you feel that no one here wanted to do anything to help you foisture your beliefs on the world. You really never were up front with your real truth on this thread and so many were just asking for that explaination.

I will say this for you, that kind on thinking and movement seems to be exactly how the banksters and gov'ment do business. So it would have been best to be honest right up front with all of us and who knows you might have gotten some folks to help you out in your endeavors. After all this thread is called what is truth. Do you think you could have been truthful right up front with us?, and said right out that you were looking for folk to support your book and more. That would have gotten a much better response from folks one way or the other and you would not have wasted so much of your time possible trying to decieve folks here. Now do not think that I am trying to slander you. I am just trying give my opinion about what has transpired. I will finish this with God Bless you in your endeavors and I sincerely hope and pray that you do accomplish your goals. Thank you again for finally giving us this truth of yours.

Love and Light
Lost N Found

Innocent Warrior
5th August 2015, 04:08
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Bluegreen
5th August 2015, 06:44
Thank all of you for your contributions to this thread. It was a perfect opportunity to show people like Ruby who believes "a real teacher does not charge money" to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt what happens when a teacher does not filter the attendance of a class based on people who want to know truth. You get people who are completely addicted to their philosophy arguing with you, accusing you of things falsely and even going so far as to invent delusions and make accusations that have nothing to do with the truth about anything at all. There's a reason why Jesus said what he did in Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake". A teacher's job is to help heal the world, not entertain psychopaths. A person who speaks the absolute truth in an ocean of insanity will get attacked and be treated with disrespect and contempt without remorse or conscience and those people will go on to commit spiritual suicide.

That being said, moderators, feel free to delete my account. I am done here.

Quoting Jesus with a hissy fit
The entertainment never ends at Project Avalon
:happy:

Selkie
5th August 2015, 12:10
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Well, Mr. Martin, you have only been here since the middle of May. Could it be that people might want to get to know you better before they decide to invest in your project? Is that not reasonable of them? You are talking about peeps' hard-earned money, after all.

If you feel like you must move on, I wish you well, and I am happy for you that you have gotten a sponsor.

loveoflife
5th August 2015, 13:22
To cut through all the bull.

Truth is what is.

Selkie
5th August 2015, 14:00
To cut through all the bull.

Truth is what is.

That is hands-down the best definition of truth I have ever heard. It goes to what Shantsai wrote earlier in the thread, "There may be no such thing as absolute truth, but there is such a thing as absolute bull****."

WildOrchid
5th August 2015, 16:02
Differences and upsets on the subject of truth only occur by way of intolerance, when a single view is enforced upon others. But if we all agree that we can grant each other the right to have different views, opinions or disagree, all will be well!


"The TRUTH is found when men are FREE to pursue it" FDR

Enjoy.....
mABqrfWbpzU

Troy Martin
6th August 2015, 08:19
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.

Innocent Warrior
6th August 2015, 11:08
Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.

I don't see any problems with Lost N Found's post. I agree with your choice to leave.

All the best.

Selkie
6th August 2015, 11:36
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.
(my emphasis)

Actually, this is what Lost N Found wrote:


So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth.You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.
(my emphasis)

So, as anyone can see, Lost N Found was, in fact, asking you, Troy, if his understanding of what you are saying is correct or not. You could have easily corrected him, but you chose not to.

So there was no slander there.

So Mr. Martin left out Lost N Found's qualifier (the word IF), which gave a totally different slant to the quote.

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 11:48
Could anyone use their imagination, and, imagine if this planet, Earth, the one we are on now and have been a part of for billions of years now, imagine if for some reason all the people here had really believed that truth was important, and that no lies had ever been told here, how different this planet would look today?

Night and day.

Every war ever was created by telling lies.

Imagine.

There have been so many lies told here by the ones who control the media it is stupid. So many that I doubt anyone could even begin to speculate as to what the world would look like today had everyone always told the truth, except to say that it would be completely different today than what it is.

After so many centuries of lies, we can not even imagine what a truthful world would look like, we have no point of reference for this.

So sad

Selkie
6th August 2015, 11:55
Could anyone use their imagination, and, imagine if this planet, Earth, the one we are on now and have been a part of for billions of years now, imagine if for some reason all the people here had really believed that truth was important, and that no lies had ever been told here, how different this planet would look today?

Night and day.

Every war ever was created by telling lies.

Imagine.

There have been so many lies told here by the ones who control the media it is stupid. So many that I doubt anyone could even begin to speculate as to what the world would look like today had everyone always told the truth, except to say that it would be completely different today than what it is.

After so many centuries of lies, we can not even imagine what a truthful world would look like, we have no point of reference for this.

So sad
(my emphasis)

I don't believe that for a minute. I think we all know what a truthful world would look like. Otherwise, we would not be fighting (however ineffectually) for one.

Innocent Warrior
6th August 2015, 11:55
You know what I'd love to know? Why some people are so threatened by others not agreeing with them. When did we learn that our truth isn't true unless others agree? Humanity has a lot of healing to do.

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 12:36
Thank you Selkie for the vote of confidence, however: no, I think it is true that we really do not know what a world of truth would even look like. It frightens us at this point, perhaps, and people who do speak truth today are called names, still, by the ones living amongst the lies. Of course they believe those lies to be truth and in their own minds are not trying to lie, they only can reference what they know, and honestly, what anyone who has even been exposed to television and radio say is quite frankly frightening.

And it has been centuries. Centuries of lies. Centuries of technological stagnation. Centuries of weapons and wars. Yes, we can imagine what a world without lies may look like, but we really do not have any point of reference for this, and, we would definitely have to use our imagination to ponder it. I like to think I'm a bright boy, and that my upbringing was splendid, raised in the country side and on "not city water" nor "non perishable food items" and I can not even begin to imagine, right now, what a truth filled world would look like.

At the same time, I have also seen the good in this world, and I know that the vast majority of all people everywhere are good people. Effectively, all that is needed for this type of transition, is not to do anything whatsoever with the majority of our population, the thing to do would be to stop the liars, and then just let nature take over. It really is that easy, but again, I have no idea what this will look like yet.

I do know that what you've said is correct, it is worth fighting for. (however ineffectually)

Admit it, this reality frightens you, no? The realization that centuries upon centuries have been completely and utterly: WASTED!!!

Selkie
6th August 2015, 12:53
Thank you Selkie for the vote of confidence, however: no, I think it is true that we really do not know what a world of truth would even look like. It frightens us at this point, perhaps, and people who do speak truth today are called names, still, by the ones living amongst the lies. Of course they believe those lies to be truth and in their own minds are not trying to lie, they only can reference what they know, and honestly, what anyone who has even been exposed to television and radio say is quite frankly frightening.

And it has been centuries. Centuries of lies. Centuries of technological stagnation. Centuries of weapons and wars. Yes, we can imagine what a world without lies may look like, but we really do not have any point of reference for this, and, we would definitely have to use our imagination to ponder it. I like to think I'm a bright boy, and that my upbringing was splendid, raised in the country side and on "not city water" nor "non perishable food items" and I can not even begin to imagine, right now, what a truth filled world would look like.

At the same time, I have also seen the good in this world, and I know that the vast majority of all people everywhere are good people. Effectively, all that is needed for this type of transition, is not to do anything whatsoever with the majority of our population, the thing to do would be to stop the liars, and then just let nature take over. It really is that easy, but again, I have no idea what this will look like yet.

I do know that what you've said is correct, it is worth fighting for. (however ineffectually)

Admit it, this reality frightens you, no? The realization that centuries upon centuries have been completely and utterly: WASTED!!!

Frightens me? No. It ANGERS me to see all the waste :mad2:

But I have to say that amidst the waste, there has been much beauty. All kinds of beauty. All kinds of beautiful art and science. All kinds of beautiful acts of love and charity. There have been all kinds of beautiful truths amidst the lies. And so it has not all been an utter waste. Not at all, IMO. I respect your view, and how you feel, but I do not agree.

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 13:14
The waste angers me as well. All that we could have done. All the metals we dug up out of the earth and then purposely put beside dissimilar metals that caused both to oxidize and turn to dust, just so that more could be built and destroyed in a similar manner. All the trees, thousands of years old most of them the first time we walked onto the scene, cut down and turned into a use once and then discard McDonalds paper coffee cup. All the energy and intent to make billions of brass cartridges for the billions of bullets fired, all wasted. All the tanks and bombs and aircraft carriers and fighter jets. I'm sorry, the fault is in me, for not being able to see what a world of truth would look like. It's too late now.

Thank you for your optimism, and for seeing.

Selkie
6th August 2015, 13:22
The waste angers me as well. All that we could have done. All the metals we dug up out of the earth and then purposely put beside dissimilar metals that caused both to oxidize and turn to dust, just so that more could be built and destroyed in a similar manner. All the trees, thousands of years old most of them the first time we walked onto the scene, cut down and turned into a use once and then discard McDonalds paper coffee cup. All the energy and intent to make billions of brass cartridges for the billions of bullets fired, all wasted. All the tanks and bombs and aircraft carriers and fighter jets. I'm sorry, the fault is in me, for not being able to see what a world of truth would look like. It's too late now.

Thank you for your optimism, and for seeing.

There is no fault in you, Earthlink :bearhug: What you write is totally true, and you are very brave for looking at it. Its just that there is also truth and beauty in the world, at least the way I see it. Look at the beauty, and the love, and the truths that the great poets have shown us, because that is where the template for a truthful world lies.

p.s. It is never too late.

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 14:15
Speaking of the words of poets, this song is called "Theme from Cola"

Y3TAxFojrLQ

Ours is the legacy of waste
Waste all the things we turned to dust
Simple if we would like to find
Punished by what's untaken.

Finally pressed you'd like to know
Known for the trip unfolding
Pleasantries building as we go
Timid the way I'll take it

Now memory is over, memory's over
Are you still remembering
Never meant to go there, meant to go there
Are you still remembered

All through the dress I lie awake
Tearful as I've been binding
Only in your mind to make
Helpful or not, I'm takin'

Now memory is over, memory's over
Are you still remembering
Never meant to go there, meant to go there
Are you still remembered, remembered

Now memory is over, memory's over
Are you still remembering
Never meant to go there, meant to go there
Do you still remain
I'm comin' on, I'm comin' on, I'm comin' on
No way to get over
Comin' on, I'm comin' on, I'm comin' on
No way to get over, get over, get over, get over
Get over, get over, get over


Or this:

Bl48UzWcKrI


They all died in the fire that I started. That is how I feel. I did this, and it started hundreds of years ago now.

WildOrchid
6th August 2015, 15:07
You know what I'd love to know? Why some people are so threatened by others not agreeing with them. When did we learn that our truth isn't true unless others agree? Humanity has a lot of healing to do.

In my view people that are incapable of granting or understanding another persons point of view, lack compassion and love for others. They feel threatened by disagreement, and thus feel compelled to assert and enforce their own views on others by belittlement or antagonism.

WildOrchid
6th August 2015, 15:11
y79ltSBbqi8

loveoflife
6th August 2015, 15:42
There are many liars in this world who use truth to point to the lie they want to promote. This is the nature of disinformation.

Beyond solipsism there is natural law.

Remember the op.

Truth or lies, they are two sides of the same coin. There is a transcendent POV.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11813499_849112198504062_5881820533408690881_n.jpg ?oh=bb1bd7cf3d18aa91907622566fbad297&oe=56589091

Finefeather
6th August 2015, 17:12
Truth is that which conforms to reality...the problem is that most of us cannot distinguish reality from fiction.

Philosophy and religion have for centuries been relying on the accuracy of subjectivity...because you cannot prove anything beyond our 5 senses...yet...so they probably know less truth.

Science is groping in the dark with many things... yet they have the most truth... because they work objectively.

Ray

Selkie
6th August 2015, 19:18
I think (note the inherent qualifier "I") think/feel that there is truth in this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQG4CcoRuM?list=RD7fQG4CcoRuM

Note: the depiction of truth starts at the 5:05 mark, when the boy, Beethoven, takes off his shirt.

Please understand I am not talking about Beethoven's private truth about being abused by his father, or about the public/social truth about the popularity of his music. I am talking about the part of the video between the 5:05 mark and the 6:15 mark.

Selkie
6th August 2015, 19:38
Question for Troy:

"So what is the truth?
1. It is what god believes."

"IT IS WHAT GOD BELIEVES."??!!??

How in the world could anyone know what God (or the Goddess) believes???

:( :thumbsdown: :facepalm: :silent:

Selkie
6th August 2015, 19:55
Truth is that which conforms to reality...the problem is that most of us cannot distinguish reality from fiction.

Philosophy and religion have for centuries been relying on the accuracy of subjectivity...because you cannot prove anything beyond our 5 senses...yet...so they probably know less truth.

Science is groping in the dark with many things... yet they have the most truth... because they work objectively.

Ray

It through empathy (intersubjectivity),


in·ter·sub·jec·tive

/ˌin(t)ərsəbˈjektiv/

adjective
Philosophy

adjective: intersubjective; adjective: inter-subjective

existing between conscious minds; shared by more than one conscious mind.

(my emphasis)

https://deephighlands.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/vesica-pisces-as-conjunction-area-between-2-circular-waves.jpg

that we contact the infinite.

greybeard
6th August 2015, 19:55
Truth can not be denied---it is not a belief, it is unchanging.
The only thing I know for sure is true is that I exist--I am.
Its the only thing that every one would agree upon.
Everything else can be a belief or debated-- no harm in that.

Chris

Lost N Found
6th August 2015, 20:31
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.

Troy, glad to see you still sticking around way after you said goodbye. Now you have said that I slandered you by this Quote,


Quote You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

Yet you have left off the entire quote as Selkie has shown in her previous post.

So you Troy Quote..".is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

It would seem that you may be slandering Selkie and all of Avalon as seems to be your self absorbed way of defending yourself in this forum, I do not know this for sure as we all have discussed our own beliefs, You are using legal terms here that really have no place on an open forum such as this. I am sorry that you feel or believe that we may or may not follow your patterns of belief.

I believe you have misinformed us all with that quote, You may not have used the word "Bible" in your discourse but you surely have refereed to the bible and even used scriptural quotes of Jesus's sayings, So that in itself has left us all to understand that you were referring to the Bible. I do not think that I need to go back through this thread to all of your posts to give proof of what you were referring to and using from the bible but I am sure most of us here have read everything you have said. All any of us were doing was stating our own outlooks on this thread and when you begin to push your beliefs in such a way as to seem argumentative and possible Slanderous to us we were asking you only to explain your statements. Glad you are still here, please continue, may be some interesting material for your new book. We all learn new things everyday.

Love and Light
Lost N Found

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 21:55
Truth is a very real thing, it is, however right now, here, on this planet, there are literally millions who rely on lies. There are many false gods and false paradigms and false belief systems that have been constructed, and people have invested years or the better part of a lifetime in these fables, and they're not willing to just let it all go. I have actually been learning from what Rupert Sheldrake calls Morphic Resonance for many years, most of my life actually, and seriously, the difference between what one may believe and what is can be very stark. Morphic Resonance works very well, flawlessly actually, and our charting of these energy and magnetic fields will, no doubt about it, dispel all the lies here, in time. It works so well that I could randomly draw a card from a deck of cards, say the name to myself, and another person who has not seen the card could guess which card it is very accurately.

So, in the meantime, please don't ever ask me about UFO's or even the moon landing, unless it's on another forum, hahahahaha.

And Greybeard, you're not alone. This I know to be true :clapping:

And once any accept the reality of these fields, and how evolution really works, and exactly what instincts and innate abilities are, you will begin to hear the same words from others that I've heard many times in this lifetime: "How do you know that?"

Lost N Found
6th August 2015, 22:38
Earthlink, thank you for posting on this thread, You really seem to have a lot of thought to contribute here. I do like your thoughts however. (Oh crap, here comes that However), I have the same thoughts of this world around us and there are days that I sit and look out of my window and tears just flow for I see all of wasted things in life also. I look at the chemtrails and this makes me angry and I just wish that "I had a rocket launcher" (Song by Bruce Cockburn) so I could take the planes out of the sky, I see and read about all the poisons being put upon us by governments, big corporations, Local, State, and Federal. They poison our water, they poison our food, they poison our air, The beautiful world that we have been given is being destroyed by the love of money and power. We sit around and acquiesce to our own destruction. So yes, I can see where you are coming from somewhat about a total waste. Just some thoughts from a side of the world that is way to damn hot. I do believe, and it is just my thought that this is all going to come to an end and I hope and pray that we all come through to the other side of life alright. I do feel your presents and I do have this to say. This will all have real truth and meaning when we move to the next plane. Maybe? Meanwhile here is something to enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Br_7iOs17Y[/url]

Earthlink
6th August 2015, 23:09
Thanks Lost N Found. We certainly have walked ourselves down a narrow and harrowing path, haven't we? Just about the chemtrails though, I have a sneaking suspicion that they're only doing that because they have to. Otherwise, most everything here would already be dead and gone. There are much more efficient ways of killing lots of people, and having access to all of their drinking water, and its' contents, is all they've ever needed in that department, and they have had that access as long as there has been city water. I personally think the chemtrails are to re-oxygenate the destructive dead zones caused in every city, every day now, because they didn't do anything until after the O2 level had dropped below 20% (f@cking dummies ... have I ever called them f@cking dummies before in here? if not, that's also long overdue) by internal combustion engines and what we call traffic.

Of course the thing about this Universal Consciousness is that it won't give you anything in writing. No proof of purchase is provided. However, if you're ever going to take a leap of faith, it has never let me down. Not even close, but it's really important to be able to not want any specific answer except the right one. Don't ever use the UC for questions about relationships or love, mmkay? hahahaha (this is because in the case of relationships or love, you already know the answer, and are only searching for a different one : ) In fact I would go so far as to say that very little is not known by you, you may only be experiencing difficulty accepting it, perhaps because you were told otherwise, and because the tinfoil and aluminum hats the military experimented with in the 40's to try to thwart the perception of intent failed, miserably, there truly is no way to avoid your being fully immersed in this all the time, and therefore, you truly do know much more than simply all of those things you have read or seen or been told.

Lost N Found
6th August 2015, 23:58
Earthlink, you make some excellent points. Well back to this thread "What is Truth" Not sure that any of this illusion around has any real truth but it sure seems to create fear and I do believe that may be some truth of what is transpiring because these creeps are feeding off that. Best thing I find to do anymore is sit in my back yard with my soul mate and discuss life as it is around us. We try not to participate in the fear porn and illusions although that can't be totally avoided. I do believe that Love is the only path and that seems to get us on down the road better. Yes this is a narrow and narrowing path we have chosen but we all will walk a path of our choosing one way or another. I think, feel, and see that all of these paths will lead to one point and to me that is back to the single energy creator we all are part of from the start. Just my belief and somewhat truth. Meanwhile speaking of that rocket launcher here is something to ponder with.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vCww3j2-w

Earthlink
7th August 2015, 00:11
I'll see your Canadian artist and match you with another: this is called "Springtime in Vienna"

B--NHHW77xM

WildOrchid
7th August 2015, 01:40
Question for Troy:

"So what is the truth?
1. It is what god believes."

"IT IS WHAT GOD BELIEVES."??!!??

How in the world could anyone know what God (or the Goddess) believes???

:( :thumbsdown: :facepalm: :silent:

I guess you could ask God in your next prayer what he/she believes....:amen:

Earthlink
7th August 2015, 02:16
I think if you'd really like to know the truth of something, and yet you can't put your foot down on what you yourself probably already know, then perhaps ask a 3 year old. Kind of like what Kiefer Sutherland does in the Star Wars movie where he can't figure out why the star charts are wrong, or at least, a bend in gravity indicates a planet there, but the star charts show none, he goes into where all the little jedi kids are training and asks one of them. And what does the little kid tell him? Point blank: the charts are wrong. That was what his character was struggling with, how or why would the charts be wrong? Turns out the planet there was the clone planet, and, someone wanted it to remain hidden.

Or ask Jake, he gets it. Or me. Or a three year old. :sun:

Or just spend time with this new information yourself. I normally loathe making promises at all but in this case I'll promise you that you already do know.

oops, cross posting today, my bad, just forgetting which thread is which ... so here's the vid that explains much about these assertions I've made here: also, Jake added to that vid I posted in another thread, and he brought up the 100 monkeys, which I wasn't familiar with, and when some monkeys on one island began washing off their sweet potatoes with water before eating, monkeys on surrounding islands, with no apparent contact, began doing the same thing. He also mentioned how crossword puzzles in the afternoon are easier to do, because others already did them in the morning.

And of course, there isn't anything visible connecting all of these events, just air, so, another answer was needed, and found.

Im also sorry if other Humans have told you most of your life that you're not but a worthless useless powerless dweeb, and that you had better worship God soon or you'll have no power ever, or any reasonably hand drawn facsimile of those sentiments, for, you are not. You are in fact more powerful, and more knowledgeable, than any have ever let on.

MtgLklXZo3U

WildOrchid
7th August 2015, 02:18
I am posting the definitions of truth. It will help answer the original question, plus it will differentiate and clarify which definition is being referred in each of your comments. After all there are 7 different definitions.....! :)
__________________________________________

Definitions of Truth

1. the true or actual state of a matter:
He tried to find out the truth.

2. conformity with fact or reality; verity:
the truth of a statement.

3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like:
mathematical truths.

4. the state or character of being true.

5. actuality or actual existence.

6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.

7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.


(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth)

WildOrchid
7th August 2015, 02:21
Earthlink, thank you for posting on this thread, You really seem to have a lot of thought to contribute here. I do like your thoughts however. (Oh crap, here comes that However), I have the same thoughts of this world around us and there are days that I sit and look out of my window and tears just flow for I see all of wasted things in life also. I look at the chemtrails and this makes me angry and I just wish that "I had a rocket launcher" (Song by Bruce Cockburn) so I could take the planes out of the sky, I see and read about all the poisons being put upon us by governments, big corporations, Local, State, and Federal. They poison our water, they poison our food, they poison our air, The beautiful world that we have been given is being destroyed by the love of money and power. We sit around and acquiesce to our own destruction. So yes, I can see where you are coming from somewhat about a total waste. Just some thoughts from a side of the world that is way to damn hot. I do believe, and it is just my thought that this is all going to come to an end and I hope and pray that we all come through to the other side of life alright. I do feel your presents and I do have this to say. This will all have real truth and meaning when we move to the next plane. Maybe? Meanwhile here is something to enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Br_7iOs17Y[/url]

LOVE THAT BEAT....! :dance3:

Earthlink
7th August 2015, 03:54
An old standard

Troy Martin
8th August 2015, 23:34
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.
(my emphasis)

Actually, this is what Lost N Found wrote:


So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth.You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.
(my emphasis)

So, as anyone can see, Lost N Found was, in fact, asking you, Troy, if his understanding of what you are saying is correct or not. You could have easily corrected him, but you chose not to.

So there was no slander there.

So Mr. Martin left out Lost N Found's qualifier (the word IF), which gave a totally different slant to the quote.

I disagree. He was not asking me anything. He was implying what I believe by putting words in my mouth about a subject that is completely off topic from this thread. IF he was asking me he would have asked me in a question, not a statement. If it was a question where's the question mark??? You say I could have corrected him? Why would I do that? Implying a lie even it is a "statement of my beliefs" is the same thing as shoving someone to instigate a fight and I don't believe in participating in any engagement that is going to feed evil. Instead, I'm going to call it out for what it is. A lie. Publicly, it's slandering/libel, regardless of how it was done ("if" or not) or how sleek and clever. If you truly want to know something put it in the form of an actual question and if it's totally off topic, which is it, why didn't you PM me instead? Because you wanted to instigate an argument by psychologically abusive means. That's your nature and you think it's normal or not deluded. Apparently you are not conscious that you're doing this and this is an example of what happens when anyone believes in "my truth" and "your truth". If anyone were to read Lost & Found's statement about my belief, which never came from me, by the way, they would be prone to believe that I believe what they stated as a truth and because it is not the truth then stating that would physically harm people as lies in the soul creates suffering no matter how subtle.

Selkie
8th August 2015, 23:56
I came to Avalon to see if anyone wants to participate in a project and I got my answer. I wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, what causes mortality, how to become immortal, what causes all the world's problems and how to solve them and a lot more. I've got a lot to do. I have a book to finish editing and another one to write. I have a website to work on and as of yesterday I'm fiscally sponsored by a nonprofit. I came here to see if anyone wants to get involved in a project and found no one was interested. While here I got insulted, judged, slandered, argued with and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviors. The lack of love is impressive. I can see why some people feel the need to leave this Avalon community. It's dark and twisted here especially when truth is spoken and apparently being abusive and attacking people with lies is something this place is comfortable with. I'm not interested in drama or the company of psychopaths. As a person who is not only a truth seeker but a truth finder I'm only really interested in action vs. talk and getting something done. I believe my time would be more useful and productive if it were spent else ware.

Congratulations on being sponsored, Troy. :)

You're passionate and motivated, brilliant to see, but here you are, doing what you are accusing others of, insulting and judging. You're frustrated with the lack of interest in your project here, understandable, but the answer isn't to chuck a tantrum (don't take this personally, I myself am a tantrum chucker when I'm frustrated) and blame the community for it. You wrote a book that explains the meaning of life, do I really need to tell you about the path of least resistance? Flow Troy, flow.

Love and truth is divine, divinity does not need you to force anything, the truth in your message will speak for itself, with you the messenger. Write it, offer it and the rest is out of your hands. All expectations, even positive ones, can bring you suffering.

If you want to stick to your view of Avalon, say it's the way we are, it's all our fault, fine, but this is not the way. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here, take it or leave it, the choice is entirely yours. If you feel it's best that you leave, then leave, it's not good for you to be feeling this way. I truly wish you all the best.

With love, Rach.

P.S. If you feel you are being abused, report the post. We do not tolerate members being abused.

Saying what I said is "my view" is the same thing as belittling someone and/or devaluing what they said. In psychology that's called abuse. I simply expressed my experience here. If it wasn't true or it was just "my view" I wouldn't bothered to have said it. I stand by my words.

You should also know that I'm not a nice person. Nice is when you suppress expression of the truth so that one does not trigger others who are living in non-truth/insanity. Why do you think Jesus was doing when he said people were "vipers" and "hypocrites". Do you think that just "his view" or was it the truth? Or do you think Jesus was just being judgmental and insulting or do you think an immortal man who understood life had a reason why speaking truth had value?

The slandering: Lost & Found's post on what he claims I believe regarding the bible. It is a complete fabrication as I do not agree with any of it. It is this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84076-What-is-truth&p=985648&viewfull=1#post985648). What he said, which was...


You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.

...is pure slandering. I never expressed this in anyway whatsoever. In fact, I never even mentioned the bible in this thread. And then Silkie defends the slandering as if I don't know what I believe. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and speak for me especially publicly because that is a crime called Libel. And then what does Avalon do? Defend the slanderer.

In this thread alone I've witnessed people being blocked to truth and unable to accept it and people are inventing delusions and then arguing about it as if its real. What I said earlier about the perception of truth from people whose belief system is false is that they cannot see truth for truth but instead see it for false beliefs instead and I am seeing people in this forum with this problem and it turns them into psychopaths. Those who dismiss the greater good and care only for their selfish addictions and not only not care about others but not even care if their actions are harmful to others. So hello, wake up Avalon. You have abusive psychopaths on here. Is it such a crime to speak the truth in Avalon? According to Avalon, if I can see what I am witnessing and understand it for what it is then I'm "having a tantrum" just to speak of it. I speak the truth because it reveals what is unhealthy and hidden below conscious awareness and if people have a desire for greater health and higher spiritual power they would be wise to do something about it but how would they know if no one speaks up? And because I don't see something meaningful like that happening in Avalon, I'm leaving, because it's meaningless to be here and be attacked and judged just because many people don't want to know any truth. Lesson learned? Truth finders and truth seekers don't mix well which is why finders create structured classes to transmit truth vs. "discuss" it in forums where trolls are there because they're bored and want some entertainment.
(my emphasis)

Actually, this is what Lost N Found wrote:


So Troy, If I am reading your post to some degree to be a truth from your mind, heart and soul, You are saying that your belief in the Bible is the only belief and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or they do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth.You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the Bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus.
(my emphasis)

So, as anyone can see, Lost N Found was, in fact, asking you, Troy, if his understanding of what you are saying is correct or not. You could have easily corrected him, but you chose not to.

So there was no slander there.

So Mr. Martin left out Lost N Found's qualifier (the word IF), which gave a totally different slant to the quote.

I disagree. He was not asking me anything. He was implying what I believe by putting words in my mouth about a subject that is completely off topic from this thread. IF he was asking me he would have asked me in a question, not a statement. If it was a question where's the question mark??? You say I could have corrected him? Why would I do that? Implying a lie even it is a "statement of my beliefs" is the same thing as shoving someone to instigate a fight and I don't believe in participating in any engagement that is going to feed evil. Instead, I'm going to call it out for what it is. A lie. Publicly, it's slandering/libel, regardless of how it was done ("if" or not) or how sleek and clever. If you truly want to know something put it in the form of an actual question and if it's totally off topic, which is it, why didn't you PM me instead? Because you wanted to instigate an argument by psychologically abusive means. That's your nature and you think it's normal or not deluded. Apparently you are not conscious that you're doing this and this is an example of what happens when anyone believes in "my truth" and "your truth". If anyone were to read Lost & Found's statement about my belief, which never came from me, by the way, they would be prone to believe that I believe what they stated as a truth and because it is not the truth then stating that would physically harm people as lies in the soul creates suffering no matter how subtle.

Mr. Martin, you really ought to look in a mirror.

Lost N Found
9th August 2015, 01:15
Ok, I do believe! that I will call you by your sir name also Mr. Martin. so catching your nit picking attitude about what I may have said and how I may have said it and then saying that it was or is off topic is in itself a slanderous statement. I was merely asking a question to your statements to all on this thread as to what you believe to be the "Truth" in which you did consider yourself as a teacher and you did refer to the Bible with so many uses of the scriptural saying of Jesus and more. So yes you did bring up the Bible in your discourse even if you did not use the word Bible. So to say this and say it in a way that is perfectly clear to your way of thinking that someone should talk to you, I am asking the question of "If I am reading your post to some degree to be a (TRUTH) from your mind, heart and soul, you are saying that your belief in the "Bible" (see your references to the gospel of Matthew from the new testament and other references of Jesus sayings from the new testament Bible)(you remind me of other folks I know that can quote certain scriptures and do it by taking them out of context to perhaps use against folks that may not know what these scriptures are really saying. Unlike some I know I do read the bible and I read all things before and after),"is the only belief, and everything that is written is the truth as you see it and all other people should see this truth as you do or the do not have eyes to see or do not see what you believe to be the truth. You totally believe all that has been taught to you by MAN about the bible and what it professes to tell us about God and Jesus" Adding a question mark here as you so have made it clear that you don't think that I was simply asking a question of your truth and belief. Now I can understand that you may have misread my intent of this question because, God forbid me I forgot that you may be some English teacher that has to correct my paper.

Now you came back and called me slanderous by saying "I made claims on what you believe regarding the Bible." Then you even went further to say " it is pure slandering, I never expressed this in any way whatsoever, In fact, I never even mentioned the Bible in this thread".... Well as I have shown above Troy or should I address you as Mr. Martin simply because you appear to be very important, I have shown that you in fact did mention the bible by the mere fact of using the scriptures from the new testament.

I am so sorry that you feel that you had to slander Selkie and perhaps the entire Project Avalon forum simply because folks were asking you questions about the beliefs and truths you seem to be so sure of. Thanks for still being here Mr. Martin I am sure we all can learn something.

ZooLife
9th August 2015, 21:51
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11813499_849112198504062_5881820533408690881_n.jpg ?oh=bb1bd7cf3d18aa91907622566fbad297&oe=56589091


http://www.wakingtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/On-the-walls-of-the-cave-only-the-shadows-are-the-Truth-Plato-s-The-Allergory-of-The-Cave.jpg

Lost N Found
17th August 2015, 14:12
Thank you Selkie, It appears that Mr. Martin has decided to come back and perhaps continue to argue his point. Well good for him, maybe that works for him in his life. As for me, here is something that goes into this Truth thread, although I do think it is a bit on the political side and maybe not but it is interesting to see this persons point of view of Truth.

From Truth or Die (fromthetrenchesworldreport.com) (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/truth-or-die/139708):

========


Truth or Die
Posted on August 16, 2015 by Jolly Roger

The brainwashed college kids see all kinds of political incorrectness in a confederate flag, even when they’re dressed from head to toe in clothing made by slave labor. Of course, their only worry concerns slaves that died a century ago, because someone told them that’s what they need to worry about.

The environmentalists see the destruction of our planet in your everyday activities, but they’re completely unconcerned about Fukushima, the Gulf of Mexico, or any of the many examples of wholesale corporate destruction of our environment. Who sets their agenda?

Gun control groups insist they represent Americans, while Americans continue to buy guns as quickly as they’re manufactured, and stand in armed defiance of new gun laws.

There’s a big disconnect between what Americans feel, and what the Zionist media claims they feel, and they’re constantly claiming that they represent large numbers of people, as a way of getting anyone at all to follow any one of their various causes. They take advantage of a human’s need to “fit in” by convincing you there are large numbers of people who support their policies, but all reliable data proves the opposite.

They create “grassroots movements” of every description to create strife, keep Americans divided, advance their political agenda, and insure that they control both sides of every debate, with neither side of that debate resembling the truth.

As evidence of this endless quest to control public opinion and deceive the entire population, one only has to look at the Zionist leadership of every political movement, and remember that Jews only comprise 1.6 % of the U.S. population. Then consider the Zionist ownership of all major media outlets, and there isn’t an honest mathematician in the world who can deny that this alone amounts to indisputable statistical proof of a Zionist conspiracy to control what Americans think.

This is the hurdle that Americans need to jump. They must realize and admit that most of what they’ve been taught all their lives amounts to deceit to facilitate the Zionists’ political and monetary gain, and that there’s an urgent re-education process in front of them. The college kids tend to take pride in their “education”, and that makes them among the last to accept that they’ve been deceived. When all of the arrogance that’s been drummed into their heads becomes baseless, they may be left with very little, but they’ll eventually be forced to know the truth, too. They’ll just be last on the line we’ve formed, and we’ll keep tolerating hearing old news because it’s new to someone else.

Many people adhere to the falsehood that we need our government for something, and that the country would fall to ruins without them. If their sense of security depends on believing that our government is protecting them, they’ll be very reluctant to know that our government is doing all they can to destroy this country, and it’s inhabitants. They’ll be the ones most disturbed by the discovery, and most reluctant to see them go.

Eventually “the truth will out” universally, and it looks like we’re rapidly approaching that “hundredth monkey” moment, because truth spreads exponentially. Whenever everyone tells someone else, our numbers double, and any backgammon player will tell you how quickly that doubling cube raises the stakes. The truth spreads slowly at first, but then it snowballs, and we’re at the point where no propagandist or army of them can manufacture lies quickly enough to stave off the avalanche.

Can a government die of irrelevance? They only amount to a small handful of perverts, and as they’re increasingly being exposed as the criminal misfits that they are, any population would naturally question why they deserve any obedience whatsoever.

Their enforcement mechanisms will be universally hated for being the protectors of an evil regime, and the population will increasingly greet them with armed defiance when they’re known to be nothing more than hired goons.

“For lack of operatives, the cursed machine” * may grind to a halt a lot sooner than you expect, because the enforcers may also begin to understand that they’ll eventually become victims of the cursed machine themselves, and after the bodies start piling up, they’ll have trouble finding people to take the job.

It’s very possible that much of our criminal government will flee the country in the dead of night if they start seeing justice being doled out with a rope, because the fact of the matter is that neither they, nor their armies can do anything to stop an awakened population, and they know it.

You see, we’re all screwed without the Bill of Rights, even the people who are presently helping to abuse those rights, and many people will only join our side when they feel the cursed machine closing in on them personally. Other people have a little more foresight, and will work to stop the machine long before it consumes them.

Our government’s collapse through the exposure of their criminality is a nice thought, and on the surface seems to present the possibility of a peaceful solution, but nature abhors a vacuum, as do power-hungry politicians. Someone will always arrive or appear to fill the vacuum, and Americans will be forced to fight them off if they want to survive individually, or as a nation.

Our economic future is certain poverty, and agrarian survival, but our political future can unfold in several different ways. Which political direction we take can only be guesswork at this point in time, but unfortunately, none of the possibilities involve much in the way of peace and tranquility. Preparing for war right now (exactly what the Zionists have been dissuading you from doing), regardless of your political views, only makes sense for all Americans, because you’ll only be left with a choice of fight, and win, or roll over, and be killed.

I’m not asking for war, but sometimes it comes your way whether you want it or not. Our war may come from one or more of several different directions, but regardless of its source, Americans will be the target.

If the last generation fought this battle we’d be living in glorious freedom today, but if our generation doesn’t do it, Americans will be exterminated, and the human race will never know freedom again. This is the end game, folks; for all the marbles.

No one regrets more than I do that it had to occur in our lifetimes, but here it is, and our only choice is how we’re going to face it. When you discover the breadth and depth of the deceptions, and understand how thoroughly their tentacles of control have been spread, it’s impossible to imagine a place to turn within the system.

When history shows you a standard operating procedure being replayed again by the same players, you’d be a fool not to understand where it will lead.

People don’t form militias because they’re fans of war and violence, and nor do they form militias because they’re “extremists” of any description. They form militias because they’re regular Americans, who have arrived at that point in education process that reveals no other option. When you understand that you’re being attacked, hopefully you’ll try to defend yourself, too.

We’ve been sold down the river by our criminal government, and no one’s coming to save America, except Americans. We all have a civic duty to defend The Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic, and we all have a natural duty to defend our homes and families.

Organize, and be a vital part of your LOCAL militia. They’re the only people on your side, and they’re the only hope America has. –– Jolly Roger

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American…The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.

—Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
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[ Mod-edit: I refined the formatting of the above article, and added a link to the original. - Paul. ]

Paul
18th August 2015, 08:17
Thank you Selkie, It appears that Mr. Martin has decided to come back and perhaps continue to argue his point. Well good for him, maybe that works for him in his life.
I moved the two posts to which Lost N Found refers to the thread more stuff (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84606-more-stuff).

Lost N Found
18th August 2015, 14:11
Thank you Paul, I forget to include links to the articles I find, I will certainly try to remember those from now on. Thank you for the clean up.

loveoflife
19th August 2015, 01:27
I keep forgetting that religions believe they have the monopoly on truth and are willing to fight about it.

Lost N Found
19th August 2015, 03:07
You are so right about that religion thing loveoflife, it is because religion is a man made thing that causes all of the wars and such and every little sect believes there own way and that is there truth. The Catholic Religion started this whole way back in the 300's when they come up with the canon bible at Nicaea and destroyed other writings that should have been included for humanity to search the truth of. It was all political and we have been under that curtain of death ever since. So even though we have that we do have to search and realize some kind of truth in our lives. We do have to stand and rebuke the evil that is around us. So yes What is Truth. I believe it has been stated in this thread that "Truth is what it is" One either excepts what is or doesn"t and then takes action to make what is work or not. That is the best I can say for my life at this time. So I do see that the Love in our hearts must be nurtured and the light must shine.

Thank you so much.
Lost N Found