Extremes of belief

[kirolak]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it.

And I sincerely hope I am not recognizing in others what I fear in myself. Very often I would like to participate in threads here, but as I hesitate to impose my views, I hold back. . . .does anyone else feel that way, too? It seems that on some forums, beliefs or theories are presented as hard facts, but often I get an intuitive flash warning me that the poster has neither the personal authority nor experience to present their beliefs as Teachings; that they are "second hand", so to speak.

Perhaps I am being intolerant. . . .:idea:

[Matthew]

It must be nice to be 100% certain like your friend is!

I'm increasingly certain that the more I learn, the less I realise I know. Famouse phrase I love it.

Being aggresive in a conversation turns it into a subjective instead of an objective exchange. Logic, reason and evidance fall by the wayside and it's hard for sides to 'back down', as it is now not a conversation but a war. Nobody wants to be a loser and/or victum. Hang on, it's not a war its a conversation.

I think it's that R-Complex again. Prounounced 'our complex' the name given to a primitive part of the brain that helps us be aggressive and fight for territory and food, and for dominance

On your question, I'm restrained with my posts. There's so many points of view put forward that mirror own. However I respect everyone is different and my way is boring and safe. Each to their own :)

[Ewan]

:)

Many times I have started typing replies only to then pause and never bother posting.

[betoobig]

Similar here; the thing is when we, or others, try to con-vence anyone... the word says it all. We should present what we know whitout the "con-vence" intention just present knowlege and let people take what resonates with them in that particular moment; making a clear difference between what we know second hand from what we know from experience, thus first hand.
Much love

[Selkie]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it...

(my emphasis)

If this is someone you are not forced to get along with, like at work, then have at her, but only for your own satisfaction, and not to change her mind about anything. At the very least, you can tell her to shut the h*** up and keep her beliefs to herself.

p.s. It is not intolerance to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. It is protecting yourself from a bully who is violating your boundaries, intimidating you and creating a hostile atmosphere around you. If this is happening at work, you might want to report her. If she is your boss, I am really sorry :(

addition I guess what I am trying to say is that anger will come to your rescue in this situation. Allow yourself to get angry. Anger is the proper feeling for being assailed like this woman is assailing you.

[Bill Ryan]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it.

And I sincerely hope I am not recognizing in others what I fear in myself. Very often I would like to participate in threads here, but as I hesitate to impose my views, I hold back. . . .does anyone else feel that way, too? It seems that on some forums, beliefs or theories are presented as hard facts, but often I get an intuitive flash warning me that the poster has neither the personal authority nor experience to present their beliefs as Teachings; that they are "second hand", so to speak.


It's an important topic to raise, and thank you. :)

You're right: there are, it seems, quite a lot of rather hysterical voices out there. I, too, have some views on things that I'm fairly sure of, but a skill I've tried to develop over the years is that of presenting them while showing as much respect as possible to anyone I'm talking to. And always entering a conversation being prepared to listen, as well.

That's not always easy! But one always has to try, because senior to whatever personal opinions we may have, we all have to coexist well on planet Earth — or else all is lost.

In that respect, the forum is a microcosm. We have to celebrate the great variety of experiences, personalities and [sometimes] views, and learn to manage all that as an important ability that we can maybe get better at if we want to.

I've also learned to be quiet and walk away if I sense a conversation is unproductive and going nowhere... the famous aikido principle of quietly crossing the street when there may be a potential conflict, rather than relishing a fight. Fighting is only ever the final option.

If one is faced with the kind of person you described, there's not a lot one can do. It seems that they don't want a discussion, they only want to preach. There are some times when forum member feel so passionately that they feel compelled to express themselves and find it hard to stop and listen to another, and that's part of the human experience... as long as it's not a fixed way of operating. (There are some passions raised at the moment on the Oregon shooting thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85689-Another-mass-shooting-in-the-US-Umpqua-Community-College-Oregon), and those strong feelings can be understood.)

Stephen Covey (the author of The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People (https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits.php)) cited HABIT 5 as

http://stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit5.php




Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood

Communication is the most important skill in life. You spend years learning how to read and write, and years learning how to speak. But what about listening? What training have you had that enables you to listen so you really, deeply understand another human being? Probably none, right?

If you're like most people, you probably seek first to be understood; you want to get your point across. And in doing so, you may ignore the other person completely, pretend that you're listening, selectively hear only certain parts of the conversation or attentively focus on only the words being said, but miss the meaning entirely. So why does this happen? Because most people listen with the intent to reply, not to understand. You listen to yourself as you prepare in your mind what you are going to say, the questions you are going to ask, etc. You filter everything you hear through your life experiences, your frame of reference. You check what you hear against your autobiography and see how it measures up. And consequently, you decide prematurely what the other person means before he/she finishes communicating. Do any of the following sound familiar?

"Oh, I know just how you feel. I felt the same way." "I had that same thing happen to me." "Let me tell you what I did in a similar situation."

Because you so often listen autobiographically, you tend to respond in one of four ways:


Evaluating: You judge and then either agree or disagree.
Probing: You ask questions from your own frame of reference.
Advising: You give counsel, advice, and solutions to problems.
Interpreting: You analyze others' motives and behaviors based on your own experiences.

You might be saying, "Hey, now wait a minute. I'm just trying to relate to the person by drawing on my own experiences. Is that so bad?" In some situations, autobiographical responses may be appropriate, such as when another person specifically asks for help from your point of view or when there is already a very high level of trust in the relationship.

[badgerboy]

I have someone in family, or now so by proxy, that currently speaks against most things moral and spiritual I believe in. I could quote Roger Miller that, "No man is hurting me" but in the end, my name and his are bound, legally. So in this forum I found a validation for my fears about him through community, especially Bill and Selkie's posts. I think most of us want a little amen chorus from the sane when faced with extremists--people driven by their chosen dogma and inner voices alone. And I have gotten angry--partially because I saw a rather brilliant man become infected by the very thing he teaches battle against. So now that battle becomes that of the "archon" which says the holocaust was way overrated and many (not all, mind you) Jews walk the earth infected by these aliens and their actions threaten the white race. Hitler saw the Jews as infection too (y'all can quote him) but I'm pretty sure Hitler was just a man and not from the nether regions of outer space. By the way, I'm mixed race pagan/Vodoun farmer on small acreage. I find God/Goddess in everything I do on the farm. And no man or woman is hurting me.

[Bill Ryan]

I saw a rather brilliant man become infected by the very thing he teaches battle against.

Yes indeed. That's exactly what happened.

Sometimes I'm tempted to release some parts of the interview (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=919179&viewfull=1#post919179) with him (this is clearly John Lash we're talking about) that then-Avalon-moderators Christine and karelia did last October to show that Houston, there's a problem here (and a big one, too).

They intended the best at the time, but were very much cast under a kind of spell, and that can be seen plainly in the audio that I and the other mods refused to publish. That infection 'jumped' to others — it really did — and wreaked quite a lot of havoc before it was pretty much contained.

(But not before several months had passed, a number of close friendships were severed, and a major theft (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83489-Project-Avalon-has-a-new-PayPal-account&p=982669&viewfull=1#post982669) took place; and it may not yet even be 100% contained yet, because ripple effects still manifest to this day, very nearly a year later.)

Further discussion of this should really be on the John Lash's Kalika war party (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party) thread. I have rather wandered off-topic! But it's very important stuff. Besides learning to listen (see my post #6 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85747-Extremes-of-belief&p=1006210&viewfull=1#post1006210) above), we do, all, need to learn to shield ourselves fully against toxic individuals when their energy seeks and threatens to infect others.

:focus:

[Fiberglut]

Interesting discussion.....I often wonder how much of this counterproductive activity is produce by AI's highjacking of human thought processes, whether it be ET AI or black project AI, as it appears that both are fully capable of such action...

[Bubu]

http://www.brainyquote.com/photos/a/aristotle100584.jpg

I welcome every opinion. Its not about what they are saying but what I am believing
instances of seemingly dumb opinion only to realize later that it was correct.
But then there are those people you mentioned where you get very little percentage in that case better to pass thru both ears at ones its not worth the time.

[Tangri]

I left my warning at December 12, as a feeling breeze .

[kirolak]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it...

(my emphasis)

If this is someone you are not forced to get along with, like at work, then have at her, but only for your own satisfaction, and not to change her mind about anything. At the very least, you can tell her to shut the h*** up and keep her beliefs to herself.

p.s. It is not intolerance to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. It is protecting yourself from a bully who is violating your boundaries, intimidating you and creating a hostile atmosphere around you. If this is happening at work, you might want to report her. If she is your boss, I am really sorry :(

addition I guess what I am trying to say is that anger will come to your rescue in this situation. Allow yourself to get angry. Anger is the proper feeling for being assailed like this woman is assailing you.

I'd love to show anger towards her, but she is a casual where I work & I'm usually the only one willing to put up with her :o

[Selkie]

...I'd love to show anger towards her, but she is a casual where I work & I'm usually the only one willing to put up with her :o

I figured, from the way you wrote about her, that she is someone you work with.

But you don't have to put up with her if you don't want to, especially since no one else is putting up with her...

[betoobig]

You can imagine her completly naked and bold ha ha ha ha...
Just wondering.
Love

[araucaria]

http://www.brainyquote.com/photos/a/aristotle100584.jpg

I welcome every opinion. Its not about what they are saying but what I am believing
instances of seemingly dumb opinion only to realize later that it was correct.
But then there are those people you mentioned where you get very little percentage in that case better to pass thru both ears at ones its not worth the time.

I ain’t no Aristotle, but I posted a similar thought here:


Being open-minded means being able to entertain extraordinary thoughts. Like entertaining guests, you sit with them for a while, and have the choice of whether or not to invite them back. The subject of time travel is bound to wander into the terrain of possibly unwelcome guests because it involves paradoxes that may be insurmountable. Time travel is generally thought impossible because of these paradoxes, and yet, given the real nature of time, the idea is seen as somehow inevitable.

Interestingly, that discussion was on time travel which, as a belief, implies that you can change the past, which in turn implies that the ‘facts’ that are the stuff of beliefs are also subject to modification. If any of that has any reality, then the accuracy of a particular belief would be time-sensitive, i.e. it is possibly correct today and false tomorrow or vice versa. Then the discussion veered off into quantum mechanics, which as a theory, and as a theory of statistical probabilities, distances itself twice over from any belief system. Hence if quantum theory has any reality, and it certainly works very well, then the doubting Thomas approach (I won’t believe anything until I’ve seen it) is almost invariably the least inadequate one. The uncertainty principle, whereby two properties of a particle are mutually exclusive, suggests that any knowledge is of necessity incomplete. This being so, a belief can be seen as papering over the gaps in our knowledge, and it would be still less a reliable basis for action except that we have no choice but to act. So we muddle through with what seems to work at the given moment.

[Constance]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it.



I wonder if doing Ho'oponopono for her might help? Just a thought? :idea:

http://rosariomontenegro.hubpages.com/hub/How-Dr-Hew-Len-healed-a-ward-of-mentally-ill-criminals-with-Hooponopono

Here is the full article.

"How Dr. Hew Len healed a ward of mentally ill criminals with Ho'oponopono
Updated on March 27, 2011
Ho’oponopono, the Hawaiian system that heals oneself ... and the world, too

More than thirty years ago, in Hawaii, at the Hawaii State Hospital, there was a special ward, a clinic for the mentally ill criminals. People who had committed extremely serious crimes were assignated there either because they had a very deep mental disorder or because they needed to be checked to see if they were sane enough to stand trial. They had committed murder, rape, kidnapping or other such crimes. According to a nurse that worked there in those years, the place was so bleak that not even the paint could stick to the walls, everything was decaying, terrifying, repulsive. No day would pass without a patient-inmate attacking another inmate or a member of the staff.

The people working there were so frightened that they would walk close to the walls if they saw an inmate coming their way in a corridor, even though they were all shackled, all the time –but more than once this wouldn’t stop an agression. The inmates would never be brought outside to get fresh air because of their relentlessly threatening attitude. The scarcity of staff was a chronic occurrence. Nurses, wardens, employees would prefer to be on sick-leave most of the time in order not to confront such a depressive and dangerous environment.

One day, a newly appointed clinical psychologist, a Dr. Stanley Hew Len, arrived at the ward. The nurses rolled their eyes, bracing themselves for one more guy that was going to bug them with new theories and proposals to fix the horrid situation, who would walk away as soon as things became unpleasant, around a month later, usually. However, this new doctor wouldn’t do anything like that. Actually he didn’t seem to be doing anything in particular, except just coming in and being always cheerful and smiling, in a very natural, relaxed way. He wasn’t even particularly early in arriving every morning. From time to time he would ask for the files of the inmates.

He never tried to see them personally, though. Apparently he just sat in an office, looked at their files, and to members of the staff who showed an interest he would tell them about a weird thing called Ho’oponopono. Little by little things started to change in the hospital. One day somebody would try again to paint those walls and they actually stayed painted, making the environement more palatable. The gardens started being taken care of, some tennis courts were repaired and some prisonners that up until then would never be allowed to go outside started playing tennis with the staff. Other prisonners would be allowed not to be shackled any more, or would receive less heavy pharmacological drugs. More and more obtained permission to go outside unshackled, without causing trouble to the hospital’s employees.

In the end, the athmosphere changed so much that the staff was not on sick leave any more. Actually, more people than needed wished now to work there. Prisonners started gradually to be released. Dr. Hew Len worked there close to four years. In the end, there remained only a couple of inmates that were relocated somewhere else and the clinic for the mentally insane criminals had to close.

Another self-help book?

I have to confess that I don’t remember reading in my whole life one single self-help book. Titles like how to get wealthy in two simple steps or the sure road to love and riches or marketing with the stars or secure your health with this ancient secret of the mayas never passed from my eyes to my consciousness, I simply never paid attention to them.

So when my neighbor Norma, an 81 year young lady filled with strength, enthousiasm and New York witt, told me: “rosario, you have to read this new book by Joe Vitale”, I stared at her with probably a blank expression, and I asked “who is Joe Vitale?” The extent of my ignorance was too wide for her to try to diminish it, so she replied, “never mind, you have to read this book”. “It’s about a doctor who emptied a ward for mentally insane criminals in a couple of years, just saying a few words to himself.”

I asked, “could you repeat what you just said?” And she did. The book displayed all the signs of the self-help book: ZERO LIMITS, The Secret Hawaiian System for Wealth, Health, Peace, and More, but it was too late, I had heard about the doctor and I had developed an instant frenzy, a desperate need to learn what he had done with the crazy criminals, so I grabbed the book and rushed home and started reading, and I didn’t stop until the last word.

What did Dr. Hew Len do to the patients, how did he treat them that the results were so spectacular? He didn’t do anything. Not a thing to them nor with them, except looking at their files. He only tried to heal himself, applying an old, traditional community problem-solving system from Hawaii, called Ho’oponopono, adapted to individuals by his Teacher, the late Hawaiian sage Morrnah Nalamaku Simeona. And what was he doing to himself? In his own words: “I was simply healing the part of me that created them”.

Actually, he used to sit in his office and look at the patients' files. While perusing them, he would feel something, a pain, an empathy. Then he started the healing on himself, taking full responsibility for what was going on with a given patient. That's how those people got better, because their doctor had the strange view that it was himself who needed the healing, not them.

Ho’oponopono

Simply put, Ho’oponopono is based on the knowledge that anything that happens to you or that you perceive, the entire world where you live is your own creation and thus, it is entirely your responsibility. A hundred percent, no exceptions.

Your boss is a tyrant? It’s your responsibility. Your children are not good students? It’s your responsibility. There are wars and you feel bad because you are a good person, a pacifist? The war is your responsibility. You see that children around the world are hungry and malnourished if not starving? Their wont is your responsibility. No exceptions. Literally, the world is your world, it is your creation. As Dr. Hew Len points out: didn’t you notice that whenever you experience a problem you are there?

It’s your responsibility doesn’t mean it’s your fault, it means that you are responsible for healing yourself in order to heal whatever or whoever it is that appears to you as a problem.

It might sound crazy, or just plain metaphorical, that the world is your creation. But if you look carefully, you will realize that whatever you call the world and perceive as the world is your world, it is the projection of your own mind. If you go to a party you can see how in the same place, with the same light, the same people, the same food, drink, music and athmosphere, some will enjoy themselves while others will be bored, some will be overenthousiastic and some depressed, some will be talkative and others will be silent. The “out there” for every one of them seems the same, but if one were to connect their brains to machines immediately it would show how different areas of the brain would come alive, how different perceptions there are from one person to the next. So even if they apparently share it, the “out there” is not the same for them, let alone their inner world, their emotions.

How do you heal yourself with Ho’oponopono? Three steps: by recognizing that whatever comes to you is your creation, the outcome of bad memories buried in you mind; by regretting whatever errors of body, speech and mind caused those bad memories, and by requesting Divine Intelligence within yourself to release those memories, to set you free. Then, of course, you say thank You.

There are seminars where they teach you many tricks to help this process, but according to Joe Vitale, Dr. Hew Len himself uses the simplest of the formulas from Ho’oponopono. Whenever a matter arises –and they arise incessantly– adressing the Divine within you, you only have to say: I love You, I’m sorry, Please forgive me, Thank You.

That we can obtain big things from Ho’oponopono has already been shown: the healing of an entire ward of insane criminals seems far more difficult a task than any of our personal troubles. There are, no doubt, piles of testimonies from practitioners. Dr. Hew Len says, however: this is not fast food. The cleaning of memories requires a lot of concentration and persistence and is an unending job. But the result is what he calls Zero Limits, a state where one is free from the past, and suffused with Divine Intelligence and love."

[Mu2143]

I've been assailed lately by a woman whose beliefs as so extreme, that she seems unable to apply any sort of critical thinking; or perhaps it's not so much WHAT she believes, as the insistence with which she forces her views on other people, like a psychic bully. For example, she will, without any preamble, say something like, "The Nazis were all extraterrestrials! Did you know that?" It's said with belligerence; no one dare contradict her or try to have a discussion about it.

And I sincerely hope I am not recognizing in others what I fear in myself. Very often I would like to participate in threads here, but as I hesitate to impose my views, I hold back. . . .does anyone else feel that way, too? It seems that on some forums, beliefs or theories are presented as hard facts, but often I get an intuitive flash warning me that the poster has neither the personal authority nor experience to present their beliefs as Teachings; that they are "second hand", so to speak.

Perhaps I am being intolerant. . . .:idea:

Most people who wake up to the reality is not what we
have been told seek the wrong type of
information that is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
her intend (Unknowingly) is to draw you in to that drama and that leads to one thing 322 same as Genesis 3:22.
Maybe you should say to her when she is doing it again :"Love is kind love is slow to anger".
Good VS evil is the duality we are in and it is everywhere, just dodge it you know.

Look at it this way it could be true or not, but what can you do with it?
piss people off =) and get pissed off your self ,because of this you keep fighting.