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WyoSeeker
13th December 2010, 19:21
Money has outlived it's usefulness and I think from this point forward everything should be free. Money served it's purpose of progressing mankind by facilitating commerce, but it's no longer making a positive contribution. In fact at this point it has become merely a tool for enslavement of the many to enrich the few and a justification for all manner of exploitation of the natural world we live in. Let's agree to just be done with it.

Think about it for a minute. My alarm clock goes off at 6am and I spend 50 hours a week of my life performing tasks in exchange for little pieces of paper. I know, these days they are just computer digits, but essentially everything happens because we agree to exchange pieces of paper (symbolically). The mines dig, the factories produce, the farmers grow so they can get little pieces of paper. Why don't we just agree to keep doing those things but eliminate the paper.

Now you might think that sounds crazy, but why is it? Ultimately when I get up and got to work in the morning I am agreeing to a social contract that says if I work I can get the food, clothing, shelter and healthcare I need to survive. If everything were free so those things were still available to me and in exchange I had to agree to new social contract that says I will continue working I would be fine with that.

And here's what would happen if everything were free. First there would be no need for taxes because everything would be free. There would be no need for insurance because everything would be free. Think about how much of your earnings go towards federal tax, state tax, sales tax, fuel tax, alcohol tax, cigarette tax, lodging tax, health insurance, car insurance, house insurance. Think about how much all the employers pay for insurance and taxes and how all that expense is rolled into every product you buy. If taxes and insurance were eliminated you could work 18 hours a week instead 40 to achieve the same lifestyle you have now. Wouldn't you agree to a new social contract that says everything is free and you only need to work 18 hours a week instead of 40? Damn straight!

Who's going to suffer from this? Well the leaches that contribute nothing real and only suck labor from the system will take it pretty hard. But with all those able hands available when the insurance companies shut down think about how much work could be done getting food and water to the billions that are dying for lack of those things on this planet.

That's the other thing that would change. If everything were free there would be no more reason to destroy the environment to eek out a quarter percentage point improvement in a companies stock price. There would be no need to track profits or buy and sell stocks. The only question corporate CEOs would face would be how can we contribute to humanity? No more thousand percent markup on lifesaving medication, no more slumlords profiting from horrid living conditions. No more reason to do anything other than create the sustainable world we all want to live in.

But if everything were free I can hear you say, wouldn't everyone want to own a yacht with gold plated urinals? Of course they would. I sure would! But it begs the question that if billions of people are starving to death and billions more are hungry and lack access to clean water and basic sanitation, shouldn't that yacht factory's resources be better utilized? If there's no longer profit in solid silver Mercedes Benzs why don't we just agree to let those factories make a product that better serves humanity? After EVERYONE has a urinal we can worry about gold plating them!

Consider Corningware. They don't make Corningware anymore, but that stuff was nearly indestructible. Dishes and bowls made out of that would last a lifetime. But products that last a lifetime don't fit the designed obsolescence model needed to generate recurring revenue. That's why you have to buy a new toaster every few years and that's why the auto industry operates on model years. We are not designing a product that does it's job well and lasts as long as possible, instead we do everything to create a consumption-disposal-consumption cycle that keeps the money flowing. If everything were free those companies could focus on products that serve mankind while minimizing the impact to our environment. How much more efficient would the world be if that mindset changed and we didn't care about revenue anymore but just designed products to work and last?

The fact is, we could easily create a world where the basic necessities of life - food, clothing, shelter, health care and education were freely available to every human born on the planet. And we could do it working half the time we spend working now. All we need to do is agree that from now on everything is free.

http://justnoisehmmm.blogspot.com/2010/12/everything-should-be-free.html

damian
13th December 2010, 19:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP4gx4dMarI

Have you listened to any of Jacque Fresco. He has been promoting a "resource based society " for some time. He also says that we have everything we need to take care of everyone in the world right now. Check out his Venus Project, I think you will like what Jacque has to say.

sjkted
13th December 2010, 19:50
This is all quite true. Although, we still need a system to distribute goods and services. There is some scarcity in the system (i.e. I only have 24 hours in a day and want to spend some of it not working and sleeping), although not nearly as much as the fake scarcity that is built in through regulation and laws. The question is how do we transfer to a different system and what will it look like?

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Have you listened to any of Jacque Fresco. He has been promoting a "resource based society " for some time. He also says that we have everything we need to take care of everyone in the world right now. Check out his Venus Project, I think you will like what Jacque has to say.


That is until the third Zeitgeist where he jumps off the deep-end and says that computers should be making all of the decisions because they're smarter than we are. The other thing I don't like about their world is it does not seem to have much respect for civil liberties. Although it seems like a utopia, it isn't a place where I would choose to live.

--sjkted

lightblue
13th December 2010, 21:18
.


Re: Everything Should Be Free


:yes2:





i'd like to replace:"what do you do for a living" with "why do you live"...only then we could expect to get some sensible answers to essential questions ..

:yes4: l
.

Rocky_Shorz
13th December 2010, 21:24
I'm not proud to be paying 40 cents of every dollar I make to elites bankers for interest on money they created out of thin air...

The excise tax alone on everything we use is enough to run our government 100%...

no sales tax is necessary... no property tax, gas tax or any other non legit taxes need to be collected.

Bring back the Greenbacks...

dddanieljjjamesss
13th December 2010, 21:33
Hey man, food comes free from the earth. You don't need to work for it unless you're trying to feed more than yourself. Nobody needs to continue doing their job.

When things get back to the way they should be, I'll be a happy hunter, gatherer, and tradesman.

shadowstalker
13th December 2010, 21:35
Hey man, food comes free from the earth. You don't need to work for it unless you're trying to feed more than yourself. Nobody needs to continue doing their job.

When things get back to the way they should be, I'll be a happy hunter, gatherer, and tradesman.

Makes sense to me let the elitist keep there gold, we really don't need it.

damian
13th December 2010, 21:56
I have not seen the third Zeitgeist yet, didn't know it was available before January. While I think that some of these ideas are somewhat altruistic, I think that if we could figure out how to start heading in the direction of spreading the wealth and taking care of the have nots, based on the resources that are available to everyone and belong to everyone, what a better world it would be. A world where 28,000 children under the age of five die every day is not a world of equality for all.

Bill Ryan
13th December 2010, 22:06
-------

Here's what money is - and here's what the problem is.

Let's assume there's no money, and we have a bartering system instead.

I have a sack of apples. I want to trade them for a sack of your potatoes.

My apples are ripe before your potatoes. So I give you my apples, and you give me a signed piece of paper saying you'll give me your potatoes when they're ready.

While I'm waiting for your potatoes, I don't have any apples any more, but I have your piece of paper promising me the potatoes.

Now I want to buy some wheat. I'd actually rather have that than the potatoes, so I can make apple pie.

So I go to the guy with the wheat and explain that I don't have any apples to trade, but I have my piece of paper promising the potatoes. That works fine for him, because he wants potatoes (luckily).

The paper is what money is.

There's no escaping it when there are multiple buyers and sellers with buyers' and sellers' needs not all occurring at the same time.

That's all fine, of course. The real problems come when the "money" is backed by gold or silver (or anythng else of real value) and then that gold or silver is stored in a bank for security, and the bank then decides it can lend money to people, charging interest for that service.

For a full explanation of how we got from a three-way barter system for exchanging apples, potatoes and wheat to the current global financial network, watch this very clever, simple end enjoyable cartoon, MONEY AS DEBT:



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544

Fredkc
13th December 2010, 22:12
A Fable.

Once upon a time...
there were three buddies. they all worked at the same factory.

One Thursday night, after work, they decided they'd all stop off at the pub for a "quick beer". Six hours later, the three of them stumbled out of the pub, said good nights, and headed home.

Friday morning, Joe and Steve awoke to incredible hangovers. My God but they felt ghastly! Still, being good workers they girded their hangovers and trudged on into work. When they got there, they noticed that Fred, who lived closer than they, had not reported in. In fact, Fred did wake up in time, but decided that the burden of having a hangover, and working was more than he could bear.

Joe & Steve spoke of their friend's absence to their other friends at work that day, and it escaped no one that when the whistle blew that day, the same sized paycheck awaited everyone, including Fred!

Monday morning guess how many people showed up to work?
One. Fred, who wanted his check.

Tuesday morning guess how many people showed up to work?
None.

Here ends Utopia. :)

Fred

Rocky_Shorz
13th December 2010, 22:12
Hey man, food comes free from the earth. You don't need to work for it unless you're trying to feed more than yourself. Nobody needs to continue doing their job.

When things get back to the way they should be, I'll be a happy hunter, gatherer, and tradesman.

one problem...

if you take the world population and divide the land usable for growing, each of us would have 12 square feet...

That wouldn't produce enough Tomatoes for me much less everything else I need to live for a year...

on top of that my thumb isn't very green...

Ross
13th December 2010, 22:12
Came across this and its 12 years old.

Consider the global priorities in spending in 1998
Global Priority $U.S. Billions

Cosmetics in the United States 8
Ice cream in Europe 11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States 12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States 17
Business entertainment in Japan 35
Cigarettes in Europe 50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe 105
Narcotics drugs in the world 400
Military spending in the world 780

And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic

social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority $U.S. Billions

Basic education for all 6
Water and sanitation for all 9
Reproductive health for all women 12
Basic health and nutrition 13


Go here for Poverty Facts and Stats:

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

Fredkc
13th December 2010, 22:36
Money: (n.) An infinite divisible means of exchanging value.

Nothing more. It isn't Satan, it isn't the ticket to hell.
It is nothing but a means of exchanging value.

The devil doesn't arrive until you let government play games with the value of money ;)
Fred

ponda
13th December 2010, 22:41
One interesting observation that i have noticed from my limited travels is that the happiest and most generous people were often the poorest

Rocky_Shorz
13th December 2010, 23:00
The elites will tell you that is why they are poor, but to those who are awake the poor are the richest people in the world...

I'd take a golden heart over a golden pocketbook in a moment...

dddanieljjjamesss
13th December 2010, 23:04
one problem...

if you take the world population and divide the land usable for growing, each of us would have 12 square feet...

That wouldn't produce enough Tomatoes for me much less everything else I need to live for a year...

on top of that my thumb isn't very green...

We build up, or out, with green houses.
The basic premise that I was getting at is that food grows.
It doesn't need to derive its value from anywhere else because its value increases naturally.

ponda
13th December 2010, 23:13
The elites will tell you that is why they are poor, but to those who are awake the poor are the richest people in the world...

I'd take a golden heart over a golden pocketbook in a moment...


very true Rocky

sjkted
13th December 2010, 23:24
one problem...

if you take the world population and divide the land usable for growing, each of us would have 12 square feet...

That wouldn't produce enough Tomatoes for me much less everything else I need to live for a year...

on top of that my thumb isn't very green...


I haven't heard this statement before, but I'll take it at face value.

It sounds like we need a lot more hydroponic gardening.

--sjkted

Rocky_Shorz
13th December 2010, 23:30
and where will you keep your cows and chickens on your 12 foot plot... and don't forget about feeding them...

sorry to say but the world can never support 7 Billion people independently...


Of the world's total land area of 150 million km2 (16 X the area of the US), much is not suitable for agriculture. Arable land comprises 10% of the total. Permanent crops are 1%; meadows and pastures, 24%; forest and woodland, 31%. The remaining 34% is land surface that supports little or no vegetation: Antarctica, deserts, mine sites, urban areas. Nearly all of the world's productive land is already exploited. Most of the unexploited land is either too steep, too wet, too dry or too cold for agriculture. In Asia, nearly 80% of potentially arable land is now under cultivation.

In Global Change I, we saw that the ecosystems of the world varied greatly in their net primary production (NPP). Isn't it surprising that some parts of the Earth's land surface are much more productive than others. Most of the "good bits" have been in agriculture for a long time. Some of the remaining land surface, such as tropical rain forests, is highly productive under native vegetation (hence not much use for feeding people), and, at least with the farming methods of today, not very productive when converted to agriculture. In fact, cropland per capita is declining world-wide, as agriculture land is degraded, or urbanized. Increasing the yields from available farmland appears to be the key to increased food production.

full story (http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/food_supply/food.htm)

KosmicKat
13th December 2010, 23:50
In addition to what has already been said, I would suggest googling "Freeconomy Freeconomics"

ponda
13th December 2010, 23:55
-------

Here's what money is - and here's what the problem is.

Let's assume there's no money, and we have a bartering system instead.

I have a sack of apples. I want to trade them for a sack of your potatoes.

My apples are ripe before your potatoes. So I give you my apples, and you give me a signed piece of paper saying you'll give me your potatoes when they're ready.

While I'm waiting for your potatoes, I don't have any apples any more, but I have your piece of paper promising me the potatoes.

Now I want to buy some wheat. I'd actually rather have that than the potatoes, so I can make apple pie.

So I go to the guy with the wheat and explain that I don't have any apples to trade, but I have my piece of paper promising the potatoes. That works fine for him, because he wants potatoes (luckily).

The paper is what money is.

There's no escaping it when there are multiple buyers and sellers with buyers' and sellers' needs not all occurring at the same time.

That's all fine, of course. The real problems come when the "money" is backed by gold or silver (or anythng else of real value) and then that gold or silver is stored in a bank for security, and the bank then decides it can lend money to people, charging interest for that service.

For a full explanation of how we got from a three-way barter system for exchanging apples, potatoes and wheat to the current global financial network, watch this very clever, simple end enjoyable cartoon, MONEY AS DEBT:



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544



I always find the quote by former president Woodrow Wilson that opened the Money As Debt video provided by Bill as very interesting.



"Some of the biggest men in the United States,in the field of commerce and manufacture,are afraid of something.

They know that there is a power somewhere so organized,so subtle,so watchful,so interlocked,so complete,so pervasive,that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

-Woodrow Wilson,
Former President of the United sates

Carmody
14th December 2010, 00:15
In the spirit world, everything, relatively speaking, IS free. Your own personal level of realization is part of who you are and this becomes your interactive coin.

However...that does not work in this place. The idea is, apparently, to integrate the two worlds. This means that some of the aspects of money are going to have to go, and some will have to stay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Every now and then I'd blow a gasket after looking at the condition of the world and I'd say, "The person who came up with the idea of money, should have been butchered at birth." People would be shocked! Though I be the kinda guy who apologizes to the bugs who hit my windshield, etc, I still get angry at times. They'd sit there looking at me. I'd smile, and say, "Good... bad....It don't matter... I'm the Buddhist with the Karmic Gun."

ponda
14th December 2010, 00:26
In my opinion it's not so much that money is the problem but that the love of it(greed) and distribution of it(inequality) that are the primary problems

Carmody
14th December 2010, 00:41
It's a natural development of survival instinct. Money, as an impersonal device, a stripper of human value (we look at the money, not the people)....only made it worse.

lisa
14th December 2010, 00:50
The main reason for money is the fact that we live in a money society. We are driven by money because it can buy what we want.

We no longer need money when...
... we love ourselves and we love other people just as much
... we know that we are all one and when I give you something I am giving something to myself
... we know that limited resources and a sense of lacking is only in our minds

Many amazing people have paved the path to a money-free world by:
* volunteering to offer free services
* making thoughtful donations
* contributing to open source projects, free music and videos
* making random act of kindness

Looking forward to a time when everyone gives freely and everyone is driven by love to give. When that happens, we no longer need money. Hopefully very soon.

sjkted
14th December 2010, 04:31
The main reason for money is the fact that we live in a money society. We are driven by money because it can buy what we want.

We no longer need money when...
... we love ourselves and we love other people just as much
... we know that we are all one and when I give you something I am giving something to myself
... we know that limited resources and a sense of lacking is only in our minds

Many amazing people have paved the path to a money-free world by:
* volunteering to offer free services
* making thoughtful donations
* contributing to open source projects, free music and videos
* making random act of kindness

Looking forward to a time when everyone gives freely and everyone is driven by love to give. When that happens, we no longer need money. Hopefully very soon.


I think this is part of it, but I think the big problem is that it's so friggin' expensive to just live and the cost of living keeps rising. Consider that jobs are scarce, minimum wage is not enough to live on and that government intervention drives up costs. One of these days I'm going to do a post that analyzes the cost of goods and services and figures how much of that is taxes, licenses and government compliance. I'm sure most people would be horrified at how much waste there is.

The bottom line is when you consider the real costs of living (not the inflated bubble of fake money and fake enterprise we have right now), most people should be able to do just fine while working 10-15 hours per week, which would leave a lot of spare time to help people, pursue personal projects (instead of not doing them or paying someone else to do them).

If you could maintain your current standard of living while working 15 hours per week, would you be willing to donate 15-20 hours a week to help those less fortunate? And consider that everyone would not need to do it, but if 5% - 10% of the people did, there would be substantially less people in need.

--sjkted

ponda
14th December 2010, 04:52
So true sjkted


I went back home to Australia a few months ago after being away for 4 years and i couldn't believe how the prices of everything had gone up.The official inflation rate over this time was supposed to be 2% to 3% but items such as bread,fast foods,electricity,bus tickets,dental work etc had gone up from 25% to 60%.Some things like plasma tv's had come down because of the high dollar exchange rate but it appeared that everyone was getting squeezed more and more.

It wasn't that long ago that the average family could afford to bring up three kids,pay off a mortgage and run a car etc all on one modest wage....not anymore

MargueriteBee
14th December 2010, 06:08
here in the USA everything has doubled in price in the past two years.

Taurean
14th December 2010, 06:17
If we use the word currency instead of money then we can regard promisory notes, coins, metals etc. as just a universal tool/medium to barter with.

PHARAOH
14th December 2010, 14:07
Everything is free just look around you and you will see all we need to do is "STOP" supporting all of thier systems of control. When we do we won't have to ask for our freedoms and liberties back as they Elites will offer it to us in thier effortsw to get us back to supporting their systems of control. i.e. "STOP" SUBMITTING applications for permission to (Drive, Fish, Hunt, Sail, etc. "STOP" [COLOR="red"]SUBMITTING[/COLOR applications to credit cards, bank accounts, 401K's, free lunch at schools, medicaid and medicare, social insecurity etc. "STOP" SUBMITTING Registrations for children at birth as if though they are cattle, do not request death certificates, stop providing reatailers with you name, address or zip codes at the "Registers" can we see our ingnorance and how we comply daily. It always has been and it is still our fault all that we have allowed to happen to us in the name of "CO-OPEARTING"... Thier "OPERATION" on the American people would fail if we collectively decided not to "CO".

Hughe
14th December 2010, 14:21
Decentralization with free energy - independence energy source - will make a small community without money.

Few hundreds of residents in a village has been worked out for thousands years especially farming town.

Deega
14th December 2010, 16:47
Everything should be free…!

I would concur with that for the following reasons.

Water (up to now) is free.

Air is free

Trees are free

Earth is free, we don’t have to paid her something.

Moon is free, she produces a lot of thing for us, we are not billed for it.

Sun is free, bring heat, light, seasons.

Ground is free to used to plant vegetation.

Amazon Forest is free.

Trees produce oxygen, never receive a bill on this one.

Magnetizism is free.

On the adverse

Pollution of water is not paid for…

Pollution of air is not paid for….

Deforestration is not paid for….

Etc….., …., ….,

And somehow, human beings have put up ways to used the above (most of it free), transformed what is transformable and sell it. And to buy it, we need to have something that represent value. In this case money.

I think that human beings need to review his ways, means of exchange, the system is well fitted for the wealthy.

In the public arena, we should view debt as value, if we capitalized to build a bridge, a road, a building, it shouldn’t be a debt, it is value, so the best brain should get together and find ways to modified the system such that this first thing changed.

After, we should also review the medium of exchange to fit in “supply and demand”, if there is a will, there is a way.

All my blessings.

Deega

Gone001
14th December 2010, 17:26
Never has anyone so closely thought the way I do about this matter haha. The only thing I disagree on is it being useful in the past. Almost every problem we have today is because of our financial past; money is simply the most foolish thing man ever created, the necessity of survival to depend on how much shiny paper you may have. If the body is a vehicle and money is like fuel or oil then it is most certainly time to switch over to something better for the environment. Its paper, the only value it holds is what we decide. We do not need money to survive, money needs us to survive. Everything important like food or shelter could be provided without money. People often ask me, if we had no money how would we keep roofs over our head and eat and I say "Do you eat money or live in a house made of dollar bills?". Certainly not. These things come from the Earth and should be free to any human being native to it. I hope some day soon we can live in this world stripped of a monetary system, government, organized religion and any other corrupting, manipulative factors stopping people from doing things and deciding things for themselves. If all that's stripped, free energy was available and people could act on there own without being told what to do (being oh so scared to break their chains and shackles to stand up and be free) everything would be alright. Hopefully soon more individuals like yourself, I and countless others on this site will wake up and we can have this change for the better instead of waiting for someone to do it for us. Anyway thanks for your post, cheers!

Deega
14th December 2010, 23:02
Never has anyone so closely thought the way I do about this matter haha. The only thing I disagree on is it being useful in the past. Almost every problem we have today is because of our financial past; money is simply the most foolish thing man ever created, the necessity of survival to depend on how much shiny paper you may have. If the body is a vehicle and money is like fuel or oil then it is most certainly time to switch over to something better for the environment. Its paper, the only value it holds is what we decide. We do not need money to survive, money needs us to survive. Everything important like food or shelter could be provided without money. People often ask me, if we had no money how would we keep roofs over our head and eat and I say "Do you eat money or live in a house made of dollar bills?". Certainly not. These things come from the Earth and should be free to any human being native to it. I hope some day soon we can live in this world stripped of a monetary system, government, organized religion and any other corrupting, manipulative factors stopping people from doing things and deciding things for themselves. If all that's stripped, free energy was available and people could act on there own without being told what to do (being oh so scared to break their chains and shackles to stand up and be free) everything would be alright. Hopefully soon more individuals like yourself, I and countless others on this site will wake up and we can have this change for the better instead of waiting for someone to do it for us. Anyway thanks for your post, cheers!

Thanks Aldous,

Glad to know that the post was in line with your thinking on "Everything should be free".

All my blessings.

Deega

Teakai
14th December 2010, 23:22
Nah, I don't want a yacht with gold plated urinals - what would be the point in that?
:)

I think gold must have some sort of elemental value.
I wonder what gold is really good for - other than as a form of exchange. What is it that makes it so valued? I wonder if it has anything to do with its uses in alchemy or as some kind of energy conductor or source.

Merkaba360
15th December 2010, 03:47
or we could just wake up to discern who is wise and who is a lying buffoon. Then we could put the wise jedi council in charge of the money and system - then corporations would be useful if they worked for us.

Its about convenience of large organizations and money. Why not keep some of them? Its consciousness that will free us , then using money or not will be irrelevant. Funny how the solution system and enslavement system are oh so similar.

Kikine
15th December 2010, 04:10
Anyone ever heard of SEL? or MonJeu.net ? It's based on ''points'' if i remember correctly. I do not know if it would work but i think it is interesting to see that for example, A and B have 15 points to start. A would be ready to help B with his house for lets say '' 20 points''. But A is not waiting for a ''service'' in return. He recieved ''20 points'' for this service he gave to B. B is now ''-5 points'' and A is ''35 points''. B seeing that he is in the minus, will offer his help to C for ''10 points''. B didnt need to give his help to A, even if A was the one who helped him first. But C with his ''5 points'' now, decides to give apples to A for ''5 points''. So everybody gets what he needs because it is not A to B and B to A. Neither C to B and B to C. It is A to B but B to C and C to A. Imagine that but bigger lol. Anyway, i hope i make sense here.
And some people can say, yes but what if B never helps anyone, or never gives anything to anyone ? Well, his Points would extremely be in the MINUS and therefore nobody would want to help him seeing his ''points''. B would have to start offering help or gives something to someone if he wants to get helped or goods. And People could still recieve services and goods from other people even in the minus. So there is no one ''poor'' except if you are selfish and never wish to help anyone, your life would change with it because less people would gives you goods or help you. But someone that would be in the minus for a while because he has a problem of some kind would still recieve food and helps.

Anyway, I think its an interesting idea but obviously it must have flaws somewhere,... but this system exist already. Just not a lot people using it. And i hope i explained it correctly.

Carmody
15th December 2010, 04:11
Nah, I don't want a yacht with gold plated urinals - what would be the point in that?
:)

I think gold must have some sort of elemental value.
I wonder what gold is really good for - other than as a form of exchange. What is it that makes it so valued? I wonder if it has anything to do with its uses in alchemy or as some kind of energy conductor or source.

It's use in alchemy is as the royal metal. One version confers perfect physical health, and the gold version confers the right dimensional doorway, perfect mind, and perfect immortality, ie dimensional shifting. The different alchemical combinations surround the different platinum metals in the 'platinum metals group'. Quite akin and related (comparable) to the Chakras.

There are different doors that each opens. for example. Silver. Quicksilver**(mercury). The moon. silver, IIRC, opens up astral realms. What is related to the moon. I'd have to go and look that up again, but each metal is connected to a different planet, different vibration and different dimension.

**mercury, essential to alchemy and NOW, as of Jan 1, 2011, ILLEGAL to sell in the USA. Yes, I'm not kidding. Look at this charting of the price of mercury. It's not shortages or production issues... it is the making the sale of mercury to be ILLEGAL in the USA.

http://www.thebulliondesk.com/freecharts/freechart.aspx?id=a6d6928f-5332-4113-9919-2f3f1e27e70e

Lost Soul
15th December 2010, 04:42
Human selfishness will kill almost any attempt at utopian societies. We have generational leeches in our own American society. We have druggies whose only pursuit is the next high (I don't mind legalizing everything, giving it for free to them in jail (so they can't hurt others) and let them overdose themselves). If nothing else, society's wolves will take everything and deny others their share because, if nothing else, control of everything and anything (food, water) is power. Don't underestimate the drug of power and its affect on people.

truthseekerdan
15th December 2010, 05:11
Money: (n.) An infinite divisible means of exchanging value.

Nothing more. It isn't Satan, it isn't the ticket to hell.
It is nothing but a means of exchanging value.

The devil doesn't arrive until you let government play games with the value of money ;)
Fred

Well, it isn't Satan (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=22990&viewfull=1#post22990) -- but the "root of all evil" (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:10&version=KJV), and we can see it at work in today's world, creating many devils...:evil:
I wish we all lived the old fashioned way -- that didn't require any money, but this is no longer the case.

What people tend to forget about the universe is that it responds to every thought, word, and action. This is called the law of attraction, the law of cause and effect, or manifestation. The belief that you do not have enough "money" closes the door to the possibilities the universe has to offer and would willingly provide if that door were open.

Until people come into a group (the beginning of community), they will not realize what each individual in the group offers to the whole. In other words, one person may be a farmer; another a builder; another a medical practitioner; and yet another someone who wishes to help others.

These are just minor examples of the possibilities of manifesting in a group. To think this is not possible is both self defeating and self destructive. To believe this is possible is exactly what most people will need in order to make their dreams of community (free of money) into a reality.

Let there be Love, compassion and unity (oneness) :wub:

Dan

Carmody
15th December 2010, 05:51
Our big problem is that we have to defeat the underlying mechanism within us that is autonomous. First we have to become aware of it , understand it...and then find a way to defeat it.

As an example, something that I just saw a few minutes ago (wandering on the net) that does hit that underlying mechanism pretty hard. Our funny bone is one example. The good side but it may be, but the underlying mechanism has it's dark side.

Most guys who watch this short 9 second video will laugh at the same time they cringe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqROt6plySA

Good luck defeating that.

norman
15th December 2010, 08:03
Barter is not compatible with oneness any more than interest charges are. As long as we cling to the separateness we built this crazy upside down world with we will have to barter and trade but it will never be more than that, no matter how "Utopian" we try to tweak it to be.

I've always been very fond of the expression "bring to the table". I like what it means in many ways. It's a good definition of how best a lot of people can do things. It's even appropriate for information gathering too.

Of course, the big dilemma is in the 'polarity' we think is human nature. If we really are selfish beasts there is no alternative to barter and it's derivatives. I hold on to a 'faith' that we have another nature that's not from the lower Darwinian and fossil-record place of being. I'm extremely confident that we could live in the opposite polarity but I'm not confident that we yet have the ability and the means to make that polarity switch effectively and completely. For one thing, we would have to have covered all the factors and arrived at a point where the old way could not pollute the new way. The multi-generational problem of "abused becomes the abuser" is a very tough problem to solve.

Logic and systems engineering isn't enough. The PTB are doing a version of that and it's only making things worse.

I often read here the Einstein quote: "You can't solve a problem with the same mentality that created it". We can't live life in the opposite polarity by the principles of this polarity. Something magical is called for but I don't have any idea what that is. Our inner desires to be in a better world do make us vulnerable and sometimes fall prey to purveyors of false "magic" though.

xbusymom
15th December 2010, 14:57
Barter is not compatible with oneness any more than interest charges are. As long as we cling to the separateness we built this crazy upside down world with we will have to barter and trade but it will never be more than that, no matter how "Utopian" we try to tweak it to be.



just last week I read somewhere that if we got everything we need to survive for free, then none of us would do a lick of work... and I can see where that would lead to necessary things not getting done because of the expectation of receiving everything free.

so the question then becomes not ... “If we got a free lifestyle, what would we do to contribute to mankind?”, but rather “what would we do to contribute to mankind that mankind would want?”... which puts us right back in the ballgame of doing not what we want to do but doing what would satisfy others desires- and how are you going to compensate me for my time and effort of doing something I don’t want to do...

It seems like a vicious cycle, yes? How do we change that?...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U


Here is the whole speech...
http://www.youtube.com/user/theRSAorg#p/c/39BF9545D740ECFF/21/mCbdS4hSa0s

lisa
15th December 2010, 16:43
Warmest regards, xbusymom. Fantastic video, and what thoughtful questions!

My believe:

Currently people are motivated by money. Cheesy as it sounds, when we get out of money, people will be motivated by love. If there are chores that nobody wants to do, we will either take turns doing them or work together to invent better solutions. As a result, we will have even fewer chores and more time to do fun stuff.

Deega
15th December 2010, 18:33
Hi, great Tread and posts, here is a few comments,


LostSoul - Don't underestimate the drug of power and its affect on people.

How true!, and since money is at the root of it, one interesting challenge if we want to change the paradym!, doesn't?


Truthseeker - Well, it isn't Satan -- but the "root of all evil", and we can see it at work in today's world, creating many devils. Until people come into a group (the beginning of community), they will not realize what each individual in the group offers to the whole.

As you know, money has a long history starting back in the Sumer Period, it has thrive through millennia, way up to 2010. It’ roots are profoundly settle in the mind of everyone.

In itself, money is not the problem, the problem lies with how the Powerful Elites (Financial World) set their goals on making money to express their power…!, and continue their domination...!, or at least, continuity for their benefit!

Yes, very interesting!, people in a small community sharing their experiences for the betterment of others would be one great way to start of process of doing things differently, but, it easier said than done...!


Norman - The multi-generational problem of "abused becomes the abuser" is a very tough problem to solve. I often read here the Einstein quote: "You can't solve a problem with the same mentality that created it"

Abused becomes the abuser, very well said...!, and nobody may confessed that they could do otherwise, not with the duality, the security of holding never enough money to thrive for…!, how may one escape from this...?, would it be "mission impossible...?"

And we need to have a different mentality to correct the problems of money such that the betterment of all is at stake.


Xbusymon - If we got a free lifestyle, what would we do to contribute to mankind?”, but rather “what would we do to contribute to mankind that mankind would want?”...

Yes!, great questions, and people in a group (communal) would find answers to these questions.


Lisa - Cheesy as it sounds, when we get out of money, people will be motivated by love. If there are chores that nobody wants to do, we will either take turns doing them or work together to invent better solutions. As a result, we will have even fewer chores and more time to do fun stuff.

Loved this!, great!, opinions are coming along, if we continue, we may find incremental things to get started…?

All my blessings.

Deega

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 20:55
Money is a manifestation of energy. It is the the purchase potential. The actual purchase with money is the realization of the energy.
The greed is a distortion of power hunger.

Very important part of being in 3rd density is to experience greed, modesty, wealth and poverty. Money is required for that.

Teakai
15th December 2010, 23:49
just last week I read somewhere that if we got everything we need to survive for free, then none of us would do a lick of work... and I can see where that would lead to necessary things not getting done because of the expectation of receiving everything free.

so the question then becomes not ... “If we got a free lifestyle, what would we do to contribute to mankind?”, but rather “what would we do to contribute to mankind that mankind would want?”... which puts us right back in the ballgame of doing not what we want to do but doing what would satisfy others desires- and how are you going to compensate me for my time and effort of doing something I don’t want to do...

It seems like a vicious cycle, yes? How do we change that?...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U


Here is the whole speech...
http://www.youtube.com/user/theRSAorg#p/c/39BF9545D740ECFF/21/mCbdS4hSa0s

Hi Busymom, we might not do a lick of work if we got to sit and be brainwashed by the tube all day.

Personally, I can't stand sitting in front of the TV. I like to think - and I love making things with my hands.

I think if we took all this empty, plastic, superficial, rot distractions that turns us into mash brained zombies out of society - there might be a whole knew face to the human race.

There are so many things in society that we don't need - that, in effect, detract from our growth and our resourcefulness.

And, who cares if we don't work? Sure, we ought to pull our weight and be a contributing element to society - but not to our detriment, and especially not to our detriment to make the rich control freaks richer or to encourage our children to grow up with that 'work ethic' that does just that.

We all have a particular talent - it is that which we should use for the benefit of the other.

trustno1
16th December 2010, 01:06
The notion of being free from labor is attractive, but what happens when we want a new computer, or plasma TV, or car, or a carpenter to come over and build an addition to our house? What will we have to offer in exchange? Maybe one day we'll evolve to a point where we are willing to work hard and then offer the results of that labor for free, but until then, life will be a negotiation. A village can get by on the concept of "free" when they're living on the basics, but the sheer complexity of the civilized part of the world demands some kind of exchange infrastructure.

Even if we decided to forgo the goods and services of others and just build a cabin in the woods, suppose another person wanted that same patch of land? You need some kind of system in place, especially when everyone wants that oceanfront property. A monetary exchange system works fine until you interject the unscrupulous greed of the Mr. Burnses of the world that seek to exploit it (in part by keeping the cost of living so high we barely have time to to breathe). We shouldn't have to kill ourselves working to just have a house and food. I wouldn't mind a 20-hour work week where I'm being productive & contributing, and maybe I'll work 40 if I want to save up for some luxury item(s) beyond cost of living. But in a world where there should be plenty for everyone, there isn't. America is a corporation. The system is rigged by those who want every piece of the pie for themselves. The government makes just enough concessions so the peasants won't revolt. Until everyone learns to give equally, no system will ever lead us to a utopian renaissance.

truthseekerdan
16th December 2010, 03:00
Yes, very interesting!, people in a small community sharing their experiences for the betterment of others would be one great way to start of process of doing things differently, but, it easier said than done...!


All my blessings.

Deega

One example of a community that did not use money was the Essenes from Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. If you read Jesus and the Essenes (http://books.google.com/books?id=ouQG_K9UOHkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+and+the+essenes+book&hl=en&ei=mn4JTZDAKMH6lwe5mPD7Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jesus%20and%20the%20essenes%20book&f=false) by Dolores Cannon, you can learn how different (in a good way) those people lived...:love: ~ Dan

Alaois
16th December 2010, 03:25
Everything should be free I agree as the Bible says Mother Nature has provided us with everything. Here's a book that may be of interest as the Government should be using these ideas to transform our economics.

Parecon Participatory Economics (Life after Capitalism) by Michael Albert

Alaois

Isthatso
16th December 2010, 07:39
I feel like we're on a precipice - looking back on a competitive society devouring itself, and yet many of us trying to look for a pathway forward to create a society based on co-operation for the greater good of all. I don't know how that will look but I'm searching for possibilities.

It's like we're being asked the question......'who are we'.

It seems to me it's a numbers game and we DO have the numbers.

I'm so hopeful.......trembling, but hopeful!

Deega
17th December 2010, 19:47
Hi, here is a few general comments on “Everything should be free”,

This post would seem paradoxal to a previous one but reality stands.

“Everything should be free” - an idealism view of how our economy should be…! To get there, we have a monumental task ahead. Here is a few fundamental on how money is involved in our economy.

As we all know, we have basic needs that hold control over people. We need to have a shelter, we need to clothes (cold, rain, Sun) ourselves, we need to nourish ourselves, we need to transport ourselves, we need to realized ourselves such that we will be able to response to our needs and others needs. And to exchange what we are able to produce and consume, we need a medium of exchange.

As you know, the medium of exchange is money. The fundamental thing that motivates every economic agent (individuals, corporations) is the notion of “profit”.

And as you know, profit hold power over things, such as resources, and people. Also, this medium of exchange serves in response to the need of one to the other, so the Law of supply and demand. And from this law, you have the notion of price, quantities. That stands in theory, but in practice, there are many things that influence the Law of Supply and Demand.

Instead, it would be great if the fundamental thing that motivates every economic agent would be the “people”, not profit, at least, we would know that we are helping ourselves in helping others, we would be glad we do.

Money has to be administered by a Central Bank. In the US, it’s the Federal Reserve (by the way, you know that it is run by private interest – unimaginable, unacceptable), in Canada, it’s the Central Bank (an independent body), other nations (I would have to checked).

The mission of the Central Bank is to control the flow of money. Charter Banks (Canada, they have to pay a % of their deposits before lending), in the US, it more an independent banking scheme, make loans available to people and corporations. And the control of the flow of money serve to protect the people from inflation, deflation, currency power, purchasing power, maintaining a positive commercial balance, control over banking (chartered) etc…, so in itself, it serves the purpose of society and some protection to people.

Our Education system, our culture, our values stand in line with the notion that if we develop ability, talent, we will be able to succeed in this consumption society (notion of need of money). So, we try to develop early abilities, talents that will serve the economy. So here another frame of mind that would need to be changed, what a task at hand this would be….!

So , one see from above paragraphs (few fundamental economical principles) that we won’t be able to influence much change here, but next generation, and generation to come may…!

We could add on other premises but it give you a clue on what is at stake here, if we want to change something, we will have to start with very small thing.

One place that it may be possible to change something.

At the Public level, i.e., a Municipality want to construct a bridge, it may sell bonds with a particular interest and redeem time. Here, there talking about a debt, it should be accounted as value…! Now, before this is accepted, it will take a while…!. And as you know the Financial System rates borrowing power of Municipalities, Local Government, States, such that, if a Municipal body doesn’t redeem correctly it’s loan, it will cost this Municipality more on the next borrowing (bonds selling). When a Municipality produces his Revenues and Expanse at the end of the year, the amount borrowed should also be accounted as value.

Furthermore, on the Municipality level, they should not be controlled by the Financial Regulation. All Municipalities in a Province should get together with their respective Provincial Government to establish the Capital Project Planning for the next 10 or 20 years. Each one would have to present a prospective view of what to do. Upon acceptation, Municipalities should receive funding to do capital projects.

The money should come from the Federal Government acceptance (should establish a cap on the amount of money spend by Provinces during a 10 or 20 years), negociating with the Central Bank (Canada at least), printed by the Canadian Mint, and the amount wouldn’t be reimbursed, it would stand as value for the Canadian Heritage. See the extra burden here, actually, a Municipality borrows, reimbursed, and the capital (bridge, road, what not..?) stands as Canadian Heritage. I’m probably dreaming, but in years to come, societies will have to find a way to do things differently.

At the society level, great challenges lie ahead if we try to realized our dream
“Everything should be free”.

All my blessings.

Deega