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timerty
14th December 2010, 06:04
The Origins of The Law of Karma

The concept of Karma originated from India and is present in religions of Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism. The idea of Karma is based on the cause and effect of people's moral actions to affect the present and future lifetimes. In Hinduism, the Vedanta school's concept of Karma requires the presence of a god to act out the law, which differs it from the other eastern religions' concept of Karma that do not require a god.

The Karma concept was established in the western world in the Pagan law of return or threefold law found in Wicca, Druidism, Shamanism, which then went on to the present New Age movement observed in "The Law of Attraction". Christianity that originated from the Middle East also has a similar concept of Karma that influenced the western world. The concept of Karma in the western world is similar to eastern religions, with the idea that a person's beneficial or harmful effects on the world will return to oneself in the present or future lives.

Some people in the western world also believe in the Hindu concept that requires a god to act out the law.



Does The Law of Karma Really Work?

After a person has made a cause, is there an entity or special physics in nature that fulfills the law by judging the person's moral actions in order to enact punishment? How does one get judged anyway? By a book that lists certain good and bad types of behavior? Is there is a special computer that determines certain body movements to be 'good' or 'bad'?

Where is the God of Karma? Where is the judging force in nature that enacts Karma?

However, that entity or special physics seems to be missing if people take matters into their own hands and enact punishment or revenge on others. Does the Law of Karma involves man's decision? Where is Karma really found?



The Law of Karma is Flawed and Non-existent

Although it may seem that the negative actions of people can bring them further negative effects, there is no special entity or forces involved in this. What really cause further negative consequences to negative people is their high levels of ignorance. Karma is Ignorance. Karma = Ignorance. If people are ignorant about their reality, that ignorance(Karma) can lead to dangerous results.

For example, if a person is ignorant of his surroundings enough to bump into a wall, he will injure himself as a consequence. There is no special entity or physics that will move the wall towards him. It is his ignorance of his surroundings that will cause an undesirable consequence.

There is no entity or special physics that judges people's causal actions and punishes them. The ignorant man does not attract the wall to him but his own ignorance of his surroundings led him to hit the wall. He will experience the situation that he placed himself into. If he does not resolve his ignorance(karma), the same thing can happen to him in his future.

The concept of Karma is superficial, biased and flawed, same goes to The Law of Attraction.



Karma is Actually Ignorance

"Karma" is actually ignorance.
If you have lots of 'karma', it means you have lots of ignorance.
Getting rid of karma = getting rid of ignorance
Getting out of the wheel of karma = getting out of the cycles of ignorance
If you do something out of ignorance, that ignorance you hold could return if it is not resolved, and could lead to undesirable results.

Dolores Cannon mentioned that Karma and anger are some of the important things that people need to resolve with forgiveness in order to move into the 5D earth. However, Karma(Ignorance) and its resulting anger can only be resolved by knowledge and understanding, only then can forgiveness be possible.



Resolving the Illusions of Karma

Why do good deeds seem to cause good experiences to return/increase?
People constantly place themselves in good types of experiences.

Why do bad deeds seem to cause bad experiences to return/increase?
People constantly place themselves in bad types of experiences.

Can different types of experiences be attracted?
No. People place themselves in their own kind of experiences, they do not bring experiences to them. Experiences cannot be attracted, it has to be sought after. The attracting of experiences is formed by egocentric thinking. Man does not create the laws of the Universe. He has to learn to respect the laws for what they really are and not simply determine them for himself.



Can Karma(Ignorance) Move From One Lifetime to Another?

If the nature of Karma is ignorance, karma = ignorance, can a person's level of ignorance move to the next lifetime?

I think so, based on the information from Dr Jang and Dolores Cannon. If a soul has failed to learn a specific kind of lesson on Earth, it could allow itself the same challenge in the next life. It could allow itself to hold a similar start or similar level of ignorance(Karma) from the previous lifetime. The amount of Karma(ignorance) would therefore be observed to have passed unchanged from one lifetime to another. It is brought forward not as a punishment but as another attempt of the soul to try the same type of lesson again, to try resolving ignorance and gain wisdom as part of its ascension. Of course I could be wrong about this since I don't have any evidence, neither do those who believe in Karma has any evidence in their belief.



Is Karma Really a Fair Concept?

There are people who say that Karma brings fairness but how is it fair if every soul did not have a 'fair' and 'good' start in their souls' journey by being able to incarnate as a good and saint person in their very first incarnation on Earth? The people who say that Karma is real and fair is not questioning the solidity of the concept. They did not seek to question how Karma can exist at the very beginning of life on Earth.



Believing in Karma Restricts Experience

The Law of Karma gives the impression that a soul can control and determine half of its experience but cannot control and determine the other returning half. This is not true. The soul always has the opportunity to control and determine all of its experiences because it preplanned its human life before its incarnation(information from Dr Jang and Dolores Cannon).

Duality contains the dual opposing polarized forces seen in positive(freedom) and negative(restrictive) situations. It is not strange for negative situations to occur in reality.



People Who Believe in Karma Are Ignorant

Since Karma is a concept created by ignorance, people will only believe in it if they have lots of ignorance clouded by anger and hatred.

Believers and promoters of Karma(ignorance) are fearful and ignorant of negativity, and do not seek to understand why people are led to do bad things but simply hate, fear and despise them. They are therefore filled with negativity themselves. They just want supernatural forces to punish bad people and put them away for eternity. They do not understand the soul's learning experience on Earth.

The believers of Karma(ignorance) can be stuck in their own cycles of Karma(ignorance) that will greatly restrict their spiritual ascension. Their ignorance can return and bring undesirable effects to their lives.



How to Deal With Karma(Ignorance)?

There is nothing to be fearful(non-accepting) of karma(ignorance) because we have it all the time and need it to perceive from an ignorant human point of view. The way to deal with karma(ignorance) is to gain knowledge. The world is in such a terrible state because people do not deal sufficiently with ignorance, which can cause even more undesirable things to happen.



Even The Law of Cause and Effect Does Not Exist

In actuality, the only one true Cause and one true Effect can only be created by the God Self. Man who is part of the God Self is only in between the stream of the true Cause and true Effect. The God Self is the Alpha(Cause) and the Omega(Effect), the God Self is the Beginning and the End.

Only people with exaggerated sense of self-importance(Ego) would think that they have the ability to enact true causes and effects, which are actually manifestations of their own false delusions. The true Cause is not separated from the true Effect even though they are perceived to be separate.

Causes and effects perceived in reality are not separated but are different forms of energy in constant changing flow. Perceiving separation is another delusion of reality. Everything is connected and not separated. Reality is an illusion and Man does not do, create and effect anything as all has already been set in the original Cause. However, by being part of the Cause and Effect of the God Self, Man gets to experience and know part of the God Self that is his own Self, which is the purpose of the journey.

Man returns to the God Self as his true nature is revealed in the midst of all the falseness and illusions encountered. The process is also called ascension.


This is taken from my Facebook group,
Know Thyself and Return to Soul: Way of True Ascension & Enlightenment 2012
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=16582554870

sjkted
14th December 2010, 06:35
My comments:

I'm not a big fan of ascribing natural laws to Gods and such, so I'll skip that section.

Karma is ignorance. Ignorance does not always see itself as such, so the mind tends to make up excuses for problems (i.e. bad luck, hard times, other person's fault/problem, etc.). Part of resolving karma involves self-introspection and being willing to face oneself with the courage that what one finds probably won't be very pretty.

Anger is one of those things that blind people to seeing what is happening. It's easy to blame other people when you are angry, which obfuscates your own role and responsibility in the situation. If you're trying to understand the nature of your suffering, anger is not your friend.

I once thought of karma as a fair system, but I no longer see it that way. Just as karma can be resolved, it can also be created by faulty actions. Unfortunately, in order to live on this planet it is impossible to do so without accruing karma, which IMO means that most people end up accumulating more karma than they end up resolving, which becomes a sort of debt that cannot be repaid.

I've not heard karma being defined as such before though. Would it mean that the most intelligent people have the least karma and the least intelligent have the most karma?

--sjkted

Oouthere
14th December 2010, 06:51
This is a well thought out and enlightened post. I once believed some great god would protect me, typical religious thinking. How many people have died with the name of "Insert Name Here" on their lips while praying for its help?

In one of Ed Dames (I don't personally believe a lot of what he says) interviews he stated "Evil exists because good men fail to act." That is about as basic as action/reaction gets. I believe the op sums up our human existence very nicely.

Rich

jcocks
14th December 2010, 07:33
As I seem to remember hearing around the place (tho I can't remember exactly where), karma is just another way that they keep you trapped here. Death and rebirth is no escape, you must come back to resolve your karma!

Although I believe in the rule of "Like attracts like" - do bad things and you will attract the same to you - I no longer beleive in karma per-se. As with so many ideas, it's been warped so out-of-shape by those who wish to control us it really isn't funny anymore....

A new millenium demands a new approach..... We *HAVE* to, as a race, start letting go of ideas that no longer serve our highest good and that don't aid in our development.

Fredkc
14th December 2010, 08:08
I forgive you for trying to stick me with a very odd notion of karma.
I forgive me for thinking it was important.

Now what?
Fred

timerty
14th December 2010, 11:18
I've not heard karma being defined as such before though. Would it mean that the most intelligent people have the least karma and the least intelligent have the most karma?
--sjkted

Ignorance is just a condition to allow for various types of human lessons or experience to occur. It is the opposing force to enlightenment. Ignorance is like the degree of difficulty you allow into a game in order to properly play and experience the game. The type of ignorance given is related to the type of lesson desired. Each person has to overcome his own type of ignorance given by his soul.

timerty
14th December 2010, 11:45
As I seem to remember hearing around the place (tho I can't remember exactly where), karma is just another way that they keep you trapped here. Death and rebirth is no escape, you must come back to resolve your karma!


Ignorance is not what keeps you 'trapped' to Earth. It is the soul's desire to experience something on Earth that gets it interested or 'trapped' by the planet. There is always a reason why the soul wanted to come to Earth and not want to leave until it is done. I see it as the soul perceiving Earth like a fun arcade and not want to leave so easily.

13th Warrior
14th December 2010, 14:07
Timerty,

You have assumed that much of the information that you've learned as a basis for your assumptions to be true; i believe this is folly.

I agree that the notion of Karma being doled out via some entity is absurd.

Karma and the Law of Attraction are conditions of our existence.

The supreme method of managing people is not to have someone constantly looking over them but, to put in place or create a system that self manages.

Speaking of human conditions; when contemplating complex ideas we tend to "over determine" them. Meaning, we like to label a complex idea with a simple term like "ignorance" and this single term is supposed to completely define an very complex idea.

Fredkc
14th December 2010, 14:54
Karma is essentially a worthless notion without the addition of another concept.
In zen, or something like it you would cal it the "sudden school".
Christianity would call it grace.

... and as to a 'judging God'.... well, I have been working on that one. I've sorta pushed passed that as well.
Life supplies it's own boogiemen without creating more.
Fred

PHARAOH
14th December 2010, 14:58
Life is a humbling journey.

Fredkc
14th December 2010, 15:03
Life is a humbling journey.

I'm tellin' ya... they outa sell tickets! (I'd buy one) ;)

dddanieljjjamesss
14th December 2010, 16:35
Very, very good.

Also, when people with Karma talk about Karma, very often it is their own Karma and not KARMA, because such a thing (as you've proven, well!) does not exist.

MariaDine
14th December 2010, 17:09
(...) So every one of you is a part of this learning, why EVERYTHING IS
WRITEN, BECAUSE NO ONE HAS ALL THE UNIVERSE, wich means... all stages and
situations you have experienced are a focus for a special purpose and a
mystery to be unveiled for you and for your soul, often the conscience
does not notice things, but the subconscious picks it up, and
that over time manifests itself in your life.
When you are committing an action in desharmony and you placed yourself inside the
frequency of your souls,and that energy, afects/tunes in /your other bodies (emocional,mental,astral) and
in other realities related to them, that we call resonance. It is in
records of each atom, in each of the bodies, which ultimately receive the name of
memory cell or quantum memory. Thus what happens is that in those cycles
earlier, in which occurred disharmonious information assimilation, was/became
registered and this can generate repeated cycles of this information, this is what you often
call the karmic effect. (...)

MariaDine
14th December 2010, 17:13
http://students.ou.edu/Y/Jacob.R.Yandell-1/karma.png


LOL !!! :)

Hiram
14th December 2010, 18:48
I'd say that Timerty's insights on Ignorance are well thought out and stand the test of reason.

I think that the concept of Karma though, as ascribed to either a entity or natural force enacting on another is a very limited view of the concept.

A master once described Karma as simply self-meeting-self. No entity or person enacts Karma upon you, there is no mystical force which governs this process. Many simply understand it to be the concept of balance and harmony. You take action (in your perception) or you simply don't.

To create a tree there must be the negative space--where there is no tree. Tree and No-Tree.

Nothing happens to you...and everything happens to you!

bashi
14th December 2010, 19:02
i am always astonished about what kind of nonsense you can find ....

Ba-ba-Ra
14th December 2010, 19:05
I love this thread!

I believe Karma, as with most concepts, is a step to get us to the next place. I equate it to the snowplow stance in downhill skiing. The snowplow stance gives one the ability to manage on the beginner slopes, but in order to progress to the steeper hills, one must give up the snowplow and move on to parallel skiing.

Consciousness and therefore knowledge is continually expanding. We couldn't expect humans to understand that the world wasn't flat, until there was an understanding of gravity, because without the knowledge of gravity it was logical to believe that you would fall off of a world that was a globe. Each concept is only a step to take us to the next step, however historically, humans have this tendency to think that each step is the whole truth, so they stop climbing, build a shrine and begin venerating what was just a step.

I applaud Timerty for giving us a jump start to move on. Time to let go of the concept of Karma and search for the next step.

shiva777
14th December 2010, 19:12
it's a complicated issue...when you consider that everything happens in simultaneous time then there are no past lives,no future lives,no cause and effect,hence no karma...claiming that there is or there isn't karma depends on the context and realm of physics you are dealing with...

irishspirit
14th December 2010, 19:17
I forgive you for trying to stick me with a very odd notion of karma.
I forgive me for thinking it was important.

Now what?
Fred

Hi Fred;

You did it again. HAHA.

Don't worry, I forgive you for it. So I have to forgive me for bringing you up on it.

Decibellistics
14th December 2010, 20:22
John Lash writes a fine article about this on his interpretations of the Nag Hammadi and Gnostic interpretation of Karmic retribution and the such at metahistory.org.

I personally think once you do away with the concept of karma from your own life you won't be ruled by it anymore and therefore you reach Nirvana or disinterested wisdom. You realize that it is a dualistic approach to a dualistic system and the only way to beat a dualistic system is....not by perpetuating a dualistic system by picking a side. But stepping outside the system altogether mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and if you're lucky....maybe even physically too. You become a third party to this circus sideshow. You observe, you are given information, realizations, and knowledge. And even better. You aren't feeding that tick-like parasite we call Yaweh

PathWalker
14th December 2010, 20:57
Very interesting post.
I have one conclusion:
It is the ultimate responsibility to be irresponsible.

Not believing in the laws of physics will not relieve you from the consequences of physics laws (like gravity and electricity).


http://yourfriendinspirit.blogspot.com/2007/12/12-laws-of-karma.html
12 Laws of Karma
.


Law One:

As you sow, so shall you reap. Sounds very Bible-based, doesn't it? The majority of these teachings are. This first law is better known as "The Great Law." It is also characterized as the "Law of Cause and Effect." It is the embodiment of the principle of Reciprocity, which is what "Karma" is really all about. Our attitudes and actions impact the universe about us. A pebble dropped into a still pond causes ever expanding ripples. In time our actions come back to us! We reap what we sowed.


Law Two:

You attract what you are, not what you want. This is also known as the "Law of Creation." With whatever you surround yourself; the space you create within which to dwell in this life; declares who you are … and one tends to attract to oneself those of like disposition. If your focus in life is on evil, for example, you will most likely attract evil persons as companions and find yourself within evil scenarios more often than not. One may say they desire to live righteously, but it takes far more than empty words and faint desire to lift oneself out of one's circumstances. One must actually begin to BE, if one would ultimately BECOME! In other words, we create both our circumstances and our destiny by who we choose to be in our journey through life. One's surroundings are strong clues to one's true inner nature.


Law Three:

What you resist, persists for you. This is the "Law of Humility." One can learn a great deal about who someone is inside simply by observing those things and those persons to which or to whom he objects. If one refuses to embrace the poor, for example, this speaks volumes about the condition of his heart, and that heart condition persists as long as he continues to resist acceptance of and association with and assistance to the poor of this world. The path to enlightenment and liberation, is the path of humility! If everyone who differs with us on some issue is viewed as "the enemy," then we are in a persistent state of enmity because of those whom we wrongfully resist. This is not the pathway to higher planes of existence.


Law Four:

Wherever you go, there you are. This is known as the "Law of Growth." True change must begin with yourself. Wherever you may flee to in life, in order to escape some situation, is pointless if the problem is you. Wherever you go, YOU will still be there … and with all the same dysfunctions. Human nature suggests that we change everything and everyone around us; this law of Karma suggests we change ourselves. This is the source of genuine growth toward enlightenment and fulfillment. It is easy to change one's outward circumstances in the hope of finding greater peace and joy, but the reality is that genuine peace and joy come when we ourselves are transformed (from the inside out, which in turn will impact our external circumstances).


Law Five:

Whenever there is something wrong, there is something wrong in me. This is the "Law of Responsibility;" also known as the "Law of Mirrors." Simply stated, we must take full responsibility for our lives (both the good and the bad). It is easy to blame others when things go wrong, or perhaps not quite according to our expectations, but to determine where the real blame lies may require us to look intently into a mirror. There stands the one responsible! Are we part of the problem, or part of the solution? The answer may well lie in where we place the blame for the former.


Law Six:

Whatever you do may be insignificant, but it is still important that you do it. This is the "Law of Synchronicity;" also known as the "Law of Ultimate Connection." Everything in the universe is perceived to be connected, thus there is no action performed that is truly insignificant. What you and I might perceive as inconsequential, may actually, in the grander scheme of things, prove to be extremely consequential. Thus, we must learn personal discipline and humility, and fulfill our individual tasks in life with a sense of purpose and even pride. We each matter; no one is insignificant.


Law Seven:You can't think of two things at the same time. This is the "Law of Focus." Some also refer to it as the "Law of Direction and Motives." We must possess a singleness of purpose; a spiritual focus; if we would achieve enlightenment. We must set our minds on things above, and not try to be "double-minded." Hidden agendas and motives are not conducive to spiritual liberation. We must be pure of thought and intent.


Law Eight:

If you believe something to be true, then sometime in life you must demonstrate that truth. This is the "Law of Willingness." In other words, if we profess belief in something, then we must be willing to personally invest ourselves in sacrificial service to that to which we affirm belief or faith. A life lived apart from visible demonstration before others of our convictions is a LIE. James, after declaring that faith apart from evidence is worthless, stated, "I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18). In other words, he was willing to demonstrate in his life the very truths to which he professed to believe. If one doesn't practice what one preaches, is such a one truly convicted of his or her beliefs?!


Law Nine:

You can't go home again, but you must try. This is the "Law of Here and Now." One cannot relive the past, although one can learn from it. Thus, we must "revisit" the past for the purpose of learning, but we must never seek to "return" there for the purpose of dwelling in it. The "what IS" will always suffer if we are fixated in the "what WAS," and we will never move forward into the "what CAN BE." The apostle Paul certainly was challenged by his past, and learned from it, but he chose not to return there "to dwell" upon it. "But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Philp. 3:13-14). Someone once said, "Dwelling on old dreams prevents you from having new ones!" If one chooses to "live in the past," one forfeits the future!


Law Ten:

The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the "Law of Change." History will continue to repeat itself; the cycle of rebirths will not end; until we learn to make the necessary changes that will liberate us. Thus, it is not the change that occurs all around us that is critical – in point of fact, there may be great change all around us, yet still nothing is altered with respect to our karma – rather, it is the change that occurs within us that is critical, and will ultimately make the difference in realizing our ultimate destiny.


Law Eleven:

When you focus on your life, good things happen. This is known as the "Law of Patience and Reward." Anything that is good, anything that is worth having and of lasting value, requires patient, persistent effort. It also requires the proper perspective on one's life, and right priorities. Those who focus only on the rewards, may come up lacking; those, however, who focus on living their lives according to spiritual priorities, will experience the rewards of such living in due time. Cause and Effect. Focus on your life, and you will be rewarded; focus only on the rewards, and you may end up losing life itself.


Law Twelve:

What you put in, you get back. This is the "Law of Value and Upliftment;" also known as the "Law of Significance and Inspiration." Your contribution is of worth, and it will bring about a result. If you contribute something positive, you may expect a positive return; contribute something negative, and what comes back to you may not be as pleasant. Cause and Effect. Karma! Reciprocity! What you put in, you get back! One's contribution to something will either uplift it or decrease it, depending on the nature of the contribution.

RedeZra
14th December 2010, 20:59
Did you forget to include the Delusion of Death ?


When bound in matter these things matter ; )

PathWalker
14th December 2010, 21:21
"I am a traveller, alone and afraid, of the world in my ignorance that I have made." (Anonymous)

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" whether the laws are man-made or universal. To stop being afraid and to start being empowered in the worlds of karma and reincarnation, here is what you need to know about karmic laws...
from http://healpastlives.com/future/rule/rusumary.htm

Wood
14th December 2010, 21:21
I've read an explanation of Karma based on energy. The underlying idea is that matter/energy follows thought, our thoughts. Our thoughts shape and 'colour' the energy around us and that colour persists and we'll meet it again next time we want to reuse old energy. This means, for example, that energy coloured by hatred will be like that next time we want some energy, and we'll get it coloured into our chakras and, unless we consciously change it (for example, the 'forgiveness' talked about everywhere), it will affect our current actions with its colour.
However, in the context of that theory, I do not know how the reuse of energy works exactly, and why do we get again and again the same energy back to use. I think it was argued that it was a law of the universe that each spirit was responsible of its energy, and that guides are helping us changing colour of bad, old energy at the moment by creating situations for us to have the chance to change it. It had to do with huge loads of bad energy generated during the fall of Atlantis or something like that.

It was argued the sensible way to act would be to use the energy with any colour we want and then change it to a neutral tone when we give it back. For example, we can curse and rage during a tennis match but shake hands at the end.

Decibellistics
14th December 2010, 21:22
Certainly not trying to throw a turd in the punch bowl.

But.......

What about people that live good lives and do their best always, and are decent folk, and then ultimately get **** on.

And or, what about horrible people that ultimately never get **** on.

Does this not, in and of itself debunk karmic retribution.

Granted yes, if you choose not to believe in physics and jump off a cliff.....you will most likely die.

But spirituality is a whole different concept. People have believed different things from others, have thought that those who do not believe the same criteria will ultimately be vanquished to oblivion( in the extreme cases at least), wars have been fought over it.....so on. This point is that spirituality may be ever evolving. Like the steps on a ladder. or the next level of a spiral.
If Laws of the such are realized by a human to be an attempt to make people realize a concept but the concept is laid out in aspects of reality not applicable any longer.

For instance, does an angel worry about karma?
Probably not.
Therefore if you can evolve yourself past these steps in human life to a point where the action you take is no longer grounded in karmic retribution of any extent. It isn't even considered. You transcend it. You realize that your path and intent and will is enough to guide you through this fractal.
Which then means that karma doesn't exist. Your head is pulled from the sand and you see a world that was already there.

If people have to think about what the consequence of there action might be, then they might as well not even act at all. We have absolutely no time for thinking about doing. If people continue to wonder what will happen if this does. Then we are already dead. Karma is trying to teach people to be good people through the fear of bad consequences if they aren't good. The same thing our parents did to us, the same thing most all other world religions teach.

Or I'm completely wrong and all those naysayers and wars and accusations and control and evil that has taken part in history is now the reason why the world is supposedly on the brink of utter destruction.

I mean no harm by this post. I'm just practicing the 1st amendment

Rocky_Shorz
14th December 2010, 21:23
remind me to drink bottled water when I go to your party... ;)

Decibellistics
14th December 2010, 21:28
Just don't leave it opened and unattended ;) hahaha

Anchor
14th December 2010, 21:34
I forgive you for trying to stick me with a very odd notion of karma.
I forgive me for thinking it was important.

Now what?
Fred

LOL :)

That is gut bustingly funny my friend.

I don't think you could have made that joke without a deep understanding of Karma.

Anchor
14th December 2010, 21:39
I've read an explanation of Karma based on energy. The underlying idea is that matter/energy follows thought, our thoughts. Our thoughts shape and 'colour' the energy around us and that colour persists and we'll meet it again next time we want to reuse old energy. This means, for example, that energy coloured by hatred will be like that next time we want some energy, and we'll get it coloured into our chakras and, unless we consciously change it (for example, the 'forgiveness' talked about everywhere), it will affect our current actions with its colour.

Perhaps it would help you if you thought of the "energy" in terms of inertia? Movement of energy set in flow by intent.

greybeard
14th December 2010, 21:45
Its a very complex subject but why worry, to the best of ability be kind to all life including your own, that take care of it.
Every action has consequences but the action is not causing anything specific to happen.
There is no cause and effect.
There is potential in evolution of consciousness.
The caterpillar has the potential to become the butterfly but not all do.
The daffodil bulb has the potential to become a flower, it needs the right temperature the right soil enough water some sunlight.
These are are all contribution to the growth of the bulb into the full grown daffodil but not causing the bulb to be anything.
A human being is not capable of creating itself.
With the best will, unaided, we cant make anything happen out with our potential and the potential of that we are trying to influence/change/create.
The end results of every endeavor are down to God the ever present Creator.
Chris

Decibellistics
14th December 2010, 22:00
couldn't be said any better really hahaha. Thanks Chris

RedeZra
14th December 2010, 22:01
For instance, does an angel worry about karma?
Probably not.


Angels are bound in spiritual matter so karma applies to them too... but they are not lost in the pain pleasure and preservation of physicality as we are

MariaDine
14th December 2010, 22:58
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xXVbcmGg_dg/SozbpKBeBBI/AAAAAAAAE5Y/7BRY52Yuuk4/s400/cartoon20060222.gif


................Ah ! The simplicity of the theme thread ...

Hiram
15th December 2010, 00:04
Certainly not trying to throw a turd in the punch bowl.

But.......

What about people that live good lives and do their best always, and are decent folk, and then ultimately get **** on.

And or, what about horrible people that ultimately never get **** on.

Does this not, in and of itself debunk karmic retribution.



Great questions Dec.....

Thank you sincerely for posting them, as these are questions we must have in any discussion about these concepts.

The simple answer is that you or I have no way to determine whether "Good" people are leading "decent lives" and getting *** on. From my observation that is what is occurring so I would have to agree. But we can't confuse our observation with what is actually occurring. Humans have the tendency to do this incessantly. We think our personal understanding of the situation is complete when it is anything but.

Many things appear to be what they are not and we mustn't forget our perspectives are limited. Besides, even in the older models of Karma...one need not have done anything negative in this short life they are living, to meet the results of negative energy they may have sown (or currently be sowing) in another incarnation.

Likewise, our perception that people sow negative seeds of destruction and cruelty in this life and do not have to meet "That self" in some manner here or in the hereafter could also be very skewed.

The answer is to not concern yourself about whether other people will have fortune or reward for their actions. Many good things come from bad actions, and lord knows many bad things come from the best of intentions. It is not for us to determine this with our limited scope of understanding.

The answer is what will you do? What will you think? How will you conduct yourself?

Most people fail to master those questions about themselves and they are already starting in on others.

Decibellistics
15th December 2010, 05:05
Thanks Hiram.....good point!

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 11:47
Its a very complex subject but why worry, to the best of ability be kind to all life including your own, that take care of it.
Every action has consequences but the action is not causing anything specific to happen.
There is no cause and effect.
There is potential in evolution of consciousness.
The caterpillar has the potential to become the butterfly but not all do.
The daffodil bulb has the potential to become a flower, it needs the right temperature the right soil enough water some sunlight.
These are are all contribution to the growth of the bulb into the full grown daffodil but not causing the bulb to be anything.
A human being is not capable of creating itself.
With the best will, unaided, we cant make anything happen out with our potential and the potential of that we are trying to influence/change/create.
The end results of every endeavor are down to God the ever present Creator.
Chris

Beloved Graybeard,
I disagree with you on the following.
1. There is cause and effect. The essence of duality is soul responsibility for the path. In 4th density and above the effects of cause and effect are diminished as the evolution is focused on other topics.
2. Potential is not enough, the free will choices makes the difference. This free will is what makes the 3rd density so intense and popular by soul entities. With the bliss of forgetfulness and laws of karma the 3rd density creature has the greatest potential to evolve.
3. The potential manifest without free will as well. The power of god/creator/nature/logos is manifesting regardless of the observer.

Joy and happiness
PathWalker

greybeard
15th December 2010, 14:04
Beloved Graybeard,
I disagree with you on the following.
1. There is cause and effect. The essence of duality is soul responsibility for the path. In 4th density and above the effects of cause and effect are diminished as the evolution is focused on other topics.
2. Potential is not enough, the free will choices makes the difference. This free will is what makes the 3rd density so intense and popular by soul entities. With the bliss of forgetfulness and laws of karma the 3rd density creature has the greatest potential to evolve.
3. The potential manifest without free will as well. The power of god/creator/nature/logos is manifesting regardless of the observer.

Joy and happiness
PathWalker

Dear Pathwalker respecting your point of view I dont have a personal answer but would point you to Dr David Hawkins who states that the main stumbling block to transcending ego is the thought that there is a this causing a that.
A very full answer to the points you have raised are to be found in his book Discovery of the Presence of God/Devotional nonduality, Mind you he takes about 300 pages to explain from the perspective of the mystic.
I have given the link below.
He has a very interesting life story.
My studying started with Yogenanda on to Ramana Nasargadatta Ramesh, Dr Goels, Eckhart Tolle and now Dr Hawkins whom I believe to be in the enlightened state.
Chris
Namaste
http://www.veritaspub.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_49&products_id=158

greybeard
15th December 2010, 14:08
Further to this pathwalker free will does make a difference because every time you make a choice you change the potential.
Chris
Namaste

Oouthere
15th December 2010, 14:58
Very interesting post.
I have one conclusion:
It is the ultimate responsibility to be irresponsible.

Not believing in the laws of physics will not relieve you from the consequences of physics laws (like gravity and electricity).


http://yourfriendinspirit.blogspot.com/2007/12/12-laws-of-karma.html
12 Laws of Karma
.


Law One:

As you sow, so shall you reap. Sounds very Bible-based, doesn't it? The majority of these teachings are. This first law is better known as "The Great Law." It is also characterized as the "Law of Cause and Effect." It is the embodiment of the principle of Reciprocity, which is what "Karma" is really all about. Our attitudes and actions impact the universe about us. A pebble dropped into a still pond causes ever expanding ripples. In time our actions come back to us! We reap what we sowed.

So the slaves shipped over from Africa to America deserved this?

Law Two:

You attract what you are, not what you want. This is also known as the "Law of Creation." With whatever you surround yourself; the space you create within which to dwell in this life; declares who you are … and one tends to attract to oneself those of like disposition. If your focus in life is on evil, for example, you will most likely attract evil persons as companions and find yourself within evil scenarios more often than not. One may say they desire to live righteously, but it takes far more than empty words and faint desire to lift oneself out of one's circumstances. One must actually begin to BE, if one would ultimately BECOME! In other words, we create both our circumstances and our destiny by who we choose to be in our journey through life. One's surroundings are strong clues to one's true inner nature.

So oil rich nations are attacked through either politics or out right war and forced to give-up their resources. This is what they are?

Religious/spiritual abductees are pulled from their bed and tortured, they bring this upon themselves?

Law Three:

What you resist, persists for you. This is the "Law of Humility." One can learn a great deal about who someone is inside simply by observing those things and those persons to which or to whom he objects. If one refuses to embrace the poor, for example, this speaks volumes about the condition of his heart, and that heart condition persists as long as he continues to resist acceptance of and association with and assistance to the poor of this world. The path to enlightenment and liberation, is the path of humility! If everyone who differs with us on some issue is viewed as "the enemy," then we are in a persistent state of enmity because of those whom we wrongfully resist. This is not the pathway to higher planes of existence.


Law Four:

Wherever you go, there you are. This is known as the "Law of Growth." True change must begin with yourself. Wherever you may flee to in life, in order to escape some situation, is pointless if the problem is you. Wherever you go, YOU will still be there … and with all the same dysfunctions. Human nature suggests that we change everything and everyone around us; this law of Karma suggests we change ourselves. This is the source of genuine growth toward enlightenment and fulfillment. It is easy to change one's outward circumstances in the hope of finding greater peace and joy, but the reality is that genuine peace and joy come when we ourselves are transformed (from the inside out, which in turn will impact our external circumstances).


Law Five:

Whenever there is something wrong, there is something wrong in me. This is the "Law of Responsibility;" also known as the "Law of Mirrors." Simply stated, we must take full responsibility for our lives (both the good and the bad). It is easy to blame others when things go wrong, or perhaps not quite according to our expectations, but to determine where the real blame lies may require us to look intently into a mirror. There stands the one responsible! Are we part of the problem, or part of the solution? The answer may well lie in where we place the blame for the former.


Law Six:

Whatever you do may be insignificant, but it is still important that you do it. This is the "Law of Synchronicity;" also known as the "Law of Ultimate Connection." Everything in the universe is perceived to be connected, thus there is no action performed that is truly insignificant. What you and I might perceive as inconsequential, may actually, in the grander scheme of things, prove to be extremely consequential. Thus, we must learn personal discipline and humility, and fulfill our individual tasks in life with a sense of purpose and even pride. We each matter; no one is insignificant.


Law Seven:You can't think of two things at the same time. This is the "Law of Focus." Some also refer to it as the "Law of Direction and Motives." We must possess a singleness of purpose; a spiritual focus; if we would achieve enlightenment. We must set our minds on things above, and not try to be "double-minded." Hidden agendas and motives are not conducive to spiritual liberation. We must be pure of thought and intent.

Bi-locating and parallel realities that share the same soul go against this. The reality of universal conscious makes this an impossible law.


Law Eight:

If you believe something to be true, then sometime in life you must demonstrate that truth. This is the "Law of Willingness." In other words, if we profess belief in something, then we must be willing to personally invest ourselves in sacrificial service to that to which we affirm belief or faith. A life lived apart from visible demonstration before others of our convictions is a LIE. James, after declaring that faith apart from evidence is worthless, stated, "I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18). In other words, he was willing to demonstrate in his life the very truths to which he professed to believe. If one doesn't practice what one preaches, is such a one truly convicted of his or her beliefs?!


Law Nine:

You can't go home again, but you must try. This is the "Law of Here and Now." One cannot relive the past, although one can learn from it. Thus, we must "revisit" the past for the purpose of learning, but we must never seek to "return" there for the purpose of dwelling in it. The "what IS" will always suffer if we are fixated in the "what WAS," and we will never move forward into the "what CAN BE." The apostle Paul certainly was challenged by his past, and learned from it, but he chose not to return there "to dwell" upon it. "But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Philp. 3:13-14). Someone once said, "Dwelling on old dreams prevents you from having new ones!" If one chooses to "live in the past," one forfeits the future!


Law Ten:

The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the "Law of Change." History will continue to repeat itself; the cycle of rebirths will not end; until we learn to make the necessary changes that will liberate us. Thus, it is not the change that occurs all around us that is critical – in point of fact, there may be great change all around us, yet still nothing is altered with respect to our karma – rather, it is the change that occurs within us that is critical, and will ultimately make the difference in realizing our ultimate destiny.


Law Eleven:

When you focus on your life, good things happen. This is known as the "Law of Patience and Reward." Anything that is good, anything that is worth having and of lasting value, requires patient, persistent effort. It also requires the proper perspective on one's life, and right priorities. Those who focus only on the rewards, may come up lacking; those, however, who focus on living their lives according to spiritual priorities, will experience the rewards of such living in due time. Cause and Effect. Focus on your life, and you will be rewarded; focus only on the rewards, and you may end up losing life itself.


Law Twelve:

What you put in, you get back. This is the "Law of Value and Upliftment;" also known as the "Law of Significance and Inspiration." Your contribution is of worth, and it will bring about a result. If you contribute something positive, you may expect a positive return; contribute something negative, and what comes back to you may not be as pleasant. Cause and Effect. Karma! Reciprocity! What you put in, you get back! One's contribution to something will either uplift it or decrease it, depending on the nature of the contribution.

The lawyers easily disprove this, the more deviece you are the greater your rewards. They are incredibly good at distorting the law and living in beach front houses.


I believe you posted many good value based systems but they certainly have holes in their applications.

Rich

Ba-ba-Ra
15th December 2010, 17:05
Great questions Dec.....

Thank you sincerely for posting them, as these are questions we must have in any discussion about these concepts.

The simple answer is that you or I have no way to determine whether "Good" people are leading "decent lives" and getting *** on. From my observation that is what is occurring so I would have to agree. But we can't confuse our observation with what is actually occurring. Humans have the tendency to do this incessantly. We think our personal understanding of the situation is complete when it is anything but.



.

An important point - and I'd like to add it is not just what one does, but the intention behind what one does. For example often people will do good things because they feel they have to, rather than the deed truly coming from the heart.

I agree with Hiram that our focus should be on self. I encourage all to truly look at the intention behind every act they are involved in. Is it to satisfy ego, or others, or to stir up trouble. I believe the more we act from the heart, the more joy in our own lives.

Carmody
15th December 2010, 17:06
The Law of Karma gives the impression that a soul can control and determine half of its experience but cannot control and determine the other returning half. This is not true. The soul always has the opportunity to control and determine all of its experiences because it preplanned its human life before its incarnation(information from Dr Jang and Dolores Cannon).

My recollection is that Dr. Micheal Newton, a regression hypnotist has done the same.

35 years 7800 patients, at last count, which was years back. He's retired (but still working) but my understanding is that a notable amount of those people were regressions, regressions specifically into what people were doing BETWEEN lives, not while in them. He gets into specifics and details within the scope of this area of research and understanding.

Carmody
15th December 2010, 17:47
Great questions Dec.....

Thank you sincerely for posting them, as these are questions we must have in any discussion about these concepts.

The simple answer is that you or I have no way to determine whether "Good" people are leading "decent lives" and getting *** on. From my observation that is what is occurring so I would have to agree. But we can't confuse our observation with what is actually occurring. Humans have the tendency to do this incessantly. We think our personal understanding of the situation is complete when it is anything but.

Many things appear to be what they are not and we mustn't forget our perspectives are limited. Besides, even in the older models of Karma...one need not have done anything negative in this short life they are living, to meet the results of negative energy they may have sown (or currently be sowing) in another incarnation.

Likewise, our perception that people sow negative seeds of destruction and cruelty in this life and do not have to meet "That self" in some manner here or in the hereafter could also be very skewed.

The answer is to not concern yourself about whether other people will have fortune or reward for their actions. Many good things come from bad actions, and lord knows many bad things come from the best of intentions. It is not for us to determine this with our limited scope of understanding.

The answer is what will you do? What will you think? How will you conduct yourself?

Most people fail to master those questions about themselves and they are already starting in on others.

Then comes that line about 'be kind to everyone you meet, for they are all individually fighting a battle of some sort.

This, IMO and IME, is the point about Karma. Dispelling ignorance in the self involves reaching a stress point, in many cases, that is as large as the value or conditions in the given life, in totality. Meaning, the egoic self is so deeply involved in the incarnation that it can threaten the intelligent manifestation and evolution of the edifice or body/spirit duality. Thus, for each of us to breach that limit and visualize the reflection so we 'get' or 'grok' our limits and connections....a battle of some sort that is as big as the self must emerge..so we can individually reach an opportunity to make a fairly informed decision (depending on our individual attentions and self awareness) about or over our given personal issue or situation.

We fail in what could be seen as THE core endeavor of incarnation... when we identify the problem as being external and try to correct the reflection of the world instead of the self. Helping the world is good and all important. Ie, we work together. But the position one comes from in that instance, needs be correct to a high enough degree... that the course of the action is not dictated by ego, for failure in the actions will be the likely result, no matter how far down the timeline it may manifest as finally going off course from it's original intent.

Clear actions come from clear mind and clear heart. And this can be and usually is extremely painful as that is a large part of Karmic intelligence coming to the given individual. Going through the internal pain of 'clearing' the self. Karma. Relief of ignorance. Identifying clearly with the self so one can clearly identify with others and step forth into actions, behaviors, and statements that reflect a evolution of the self...and thus help the world evolve.

regarding people who have large amounts of power in this world? They may be someone who did tremendous wrongs in the past and have been given a chance to clear themselves of that influence. Their resultant lives in this incarnation.... will show whether they have risen to the new challenge, or not. The rest of us need battles to deal with so we can exorcise our own ignorance.

We all need something to rally and rail against - fighting our individual battles. The question has generally been whether we individually see that clearly.....or not.

greybeard
15th December 2010, 18:25
An important point - and I'd like to add it is not just what one does, but the intention behind what one does. For example often people will do good things because they feel they have to, rather than the deed truly coming from the heart.

I agree with Hiram that our focus should be on self. I encourage all to truly look at the intention behind every act they are involved in. Is it to satisfy ego, or others, or to stir up trouble. I believe the more we act from the heart, the more joy in our own lives.

All this is so guys and much in line with this has already been discussed on the ego what is it how to transcend it thread.
Get self right and we become aware of Self.
Karma is an aspect of being human its what we are born with.
There is collective Karma and personal Karma.
chris
Namaste

shiva777
15th December 2010, 18:29
there is also galactic karma,universal karma,cosmic karma...cause and effect are a FACT of manifested reality

greybeard
15th December 2010, 18:35
It is not possible to escape the consequences of ones actions but the intention behind them as pointed out is very important.
Not a hair on the head is uncounted, nothing escapes consciouses because thats what we are.
Nothing can be hidden.
The action, the energy we put out must come back in equal measure but not necessarily the same deed returns.
its very astute to accept we dont know whether a deed has good consequences or not, good can come of seeming bad.
Intention intention intention all important too.
Many valid and good points raised by contributors here.
Chris

Hiram
15th December 2010, 18:38
there is also galactic karma,universal karma,cosmic karma...cause and effect are a FACT of manifested reality

Much agreed Shiva....

MariaDine
15th December 2010, 18:40
http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/09/05/05/charlie,brown,cartoon,life,question,true,why,am,i,here-fe4cb867f16ffd160212f73a1b2d9936_h.jpg

http://fluxodopensamento.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/peanuts-cartoon.jpg?w=432&h=372

http://www.merlinnz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/whatisthemeaningoflife.jpg

...either way, the answers we seak are «with in». And that search takes courage ...

greybeard
15th December 2010, 18:47
Much agreed Shiva....

You can agree with cause and effect only if you believe in duality.
Everything emerges in the eternal one moment.
The ego needs past and present and cause and effect to survive.
Everything is perfect moment to moment.
The cut on the hand is the perfect cut, the scab is the perfect scab, the scar is the perfect scar.
Nothing goes from in-perfect to perfect. Everything is perfectly what it is in the moment.
The budding rose the perfect budding rose, the perfect flowering rose, the perfect decaying rose.
The process can stop at any part and yet be perfect the bud does not cause the flower it may emerge into it if conditions are favorable but nothing causes it to flower.
c

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 18:56
would point you to Dr David Hawkins who states that the main stumbling block to transcending ego is the thought that there is a this causing a that.
http://www.veritaspub.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_49&products_id=158

Thanks you graybeard,
I appreciate your humility. I am not there yet. Still working on it.
Please remember that the correct answer is your personal belief. Your intrinsic belief creates you reality.
In my path I am integrating the ego. I do not wish to transcend nor subdue the ego.
In my belief system, I respect the experience in 3rd density and the lessons of the ego. Therefore the ego has it respectable role and responsibility in my evolution.
In my perspective, we are in the 3rd density in the duality. As such there are valuable roles for each pole in the duality/polarity. The creator provide us with experiences in each polarity. Therefore to take full advantage of the duality experience evolution/choices the ego is required.

In other teaching the ego is redundant and negative part that need to be mastered. It is a matter of perspective and definition.

As for the topic is Karma, in my belief system it is not related to ego. It is just part of the cosmic metaphysical laws. Governing this part of the creation. In this density.

Thank you my teacher

MariaDine
15th December 2010, 18:58
There is duality...that is the porpuse of Life experience in this quadrant of the galaxy. One comes to experience that. Also to reunite and harmonize the «opposites». It's one of goals of each soul/conscience...to expand that same Conscience by experimenting several «situations» . One could add...before going back to The Source.

FreWill and Duality are just two of the many »holograms» we will be experimenting.

Namaste

Hiram
15th December 2010, 19:07
You can agree with cause and effect only if you believe in duality.
Everything emerges in the eternal one moment.
The ego needs past and present and cause and effect to survive.
Everything is perfect moment to moment.
The cut on the hand is the perfect cut, the scab is the perfect scab, the scar is the perfect scar.
Nothing goes from in-perfect to perfect. Everything is perfectly what it is in the moment.
The budding rose the perfect budding rose, the perfect flowering rose, the perfect decaying rose.
The process can stop at any part and yet be perfect the bud does not cause the flower it may emerge into it if conditions are favorable but nothing causes it to flower.
c

Chris,

I believe we are making the same point--but it is two different conversations to describe the principles which govern so called "Ultimate reality" and the dualistic reality we are currently engaged in. I don't wish to confabulate the two.

In ultimate reality the wound on your leg doesn't matter...nor does the scab...nor does the eventual scar which appears. That is a fun conversation to have--and I think it does directly tie into what we are talking about. On the other hand, there is a level of reality in which struggle, or perceived struggle is a necessary component of growth. I believe we are currently engaged in such a reality. What many (perhaps most) in this dualistic reality miss though...is that something such as a wound or a scar, or a rosebud has no inherent value...unless you assign it one. If you assign it a meaningless value, then it will mean nothing to you. If you assign it a meaningful, perhaps powerful value...then it will have great meaning and power.

Cause and effect are simply principles which help the limited parcel of universal mind that calls itself a human to understand and apply context to the struggle we are engaged in.

From a universal standpoint, they are quite meaningless. What always was, always is.....and ever and ever shall be.

Within the game we are playing, and the larger game that houses this game, these concepts can be useful...and dare I say Fun?

greybeard
15th December 2010, 19:20
There is duality...that is the porpuse of Life experience in this quadrant of the galaxy. One comes to experience that. Also to reunite and harmonize the «opposites». It's one of goals of each soul/conscience...to expand that same Conscience by experimenting several «situations» . One could add...before going back to The Source.

FreWill and Duality are just two of the many »holograms» we will be experimenting.

Namaste

Respectfully how then do you explain the state of enlightenment which has transcended ego and karma and is therefore free of this world and the cycle of birth and re birth?
The answer to the question "Who am I"? is not that the purpose of incarnation
Jesus said "I have overcome the world" and pointed out that we could do the same.
Jesus also said "The Father and I are one. The Father is within me and I within the Father" that does not sound dualistic to me.
Every single enlightened sage for thousands of years has declared this world to be illusory as our perception is flawed.
We dont see things as they are because of our concepts, belief systems, conditioning, all part of the ego which is dualistic.
All I can suggest is read a book by any enlightened teacher, get the whole picture, not part of it.
First the ego is tamed, its not an enemy and has served its purpose, time to move on and thats scary but at least we have the proof of life without the ego, life without duality, without fear, lived to the full by enlightened souls who are the fore runners of what comes next for the human race.
All very positive.

Regards for any point of view including mine. Lol

Mystics dont have a point of view they live truth

Chris
Namaste

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 19:56
I will try to get the terms correct and get the discussion back to the topic of Karma.

Karma is the metaphysical law of cause and effect, experienced in the 3rd density.
Cause and effect require sequential order of events. In order to associate the effect to the cause.
This sequential order of event is called linear time. Which is unique to our 3rd density experience. Some teachers argue that linear time is created for the teaching of Karma.

Duality and ego are human experience in the 3rd density. Karma teaching is experienced while doing choices in dualistic reality.

The ego is just one face of polarity - separation:
Unique, distinguished, singular, separated, different, eccentric,
The selfless is the other face of the polarity - integration:
Common, harmonized, conform, integrated, assimilate, normal

Karma allows us to investigate each aspect of polarity.
Polarity is not required to experience the laws of Karma, it is possible to learn Karma law without polarity, like physics.
But Karma is required to learn aspects of polarity.

The Karmic learning is integrated when when our souls leave the 3rd density, or in awakened path.

shiva777
15th December 2010, 20:00
again Chris...could it be that those "enlightened masters" and mystics were just shepherded in to FALSE enlightened states and dimensional spaces,Hawkins included..a very complicated and seductive trap...a clue

you wrote
"Jesus also said "The Father and I are one. The Father is within me and I within the Father" that does not sound dualistic to me."

that is a DISTORTION...Jesus did not think that GOD was a man "father",that's the PATRIARCHAL DISTORTION at work..the Father that this false bible story "Jesus" speaks of is a FALLEN GOD,YHWH is a fallen "god",that "jesus" story is about giving your essence away to a FALLEN GOD and distorted "enlightened state"..like the God's of all the religions and much of the new-age...IMPOSTER HIGH LEVEL CONDITIONAL LOVE gods that feed "enlightened masters" lots of bliss and false teachings mixed with basic truths to suck other people in to the FALSE ENLIGHTENMENT states,therby feeding these "false Gods"...just because a Guru,God or "enlightened master" teaches "unconditional love" it odoesn't mean that they TRLY embody it.conditional love can be intensely deep and expansive and blissful also

the new-age and their prechers have also fallen for this trap where they are teaching that higher dimension means purer...this talk of the 5D being a realm of pure unconditional love and bliss is another trap...one that many are falling into...when we heal and integrate 12 dimensions of conciousness(our 12 strand DNA Divine blueprint) then we can be considered "enlightened"..our 12D Divine template conducting light harmoniously...

the EVOLUTION happening now is that many people have broken through that frequency fence that humans were subject to in our past and are sensing,feeling,experiencing the distortions in the energies and teachings of those LIMITED "enlightened beings" and teachings...while others are still getting sucked in to those "heavenly" distorted dimensional spaces and teachings

The ego is to be healed.loved and integrated...not to be transcended...as long as we have freewill within our oneness with Source/god we will need EGO..individualistaion and freedom to create within harmony with oneness requires EGO...the teachings you resonate with are the FALSE enlightenment traps...very clever manipulations and feedlines for fallen "gods" and false/light/bliss dimesnional realities and spaces

the confusions around viewing Karma from the relative and absolute states are one of those clever traps in many teachings




"

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 20:17
...very clever manipulations and feedlines for fallen "gods" and false/light/bliss dimesnional realities and spaces

the confusions around viewing Karma from the relative and absolute states are one of those clever traps in many teachings
"

shiva777, assuming you are correct. Your message did not convey.
The point is to convey the message and avoid confrontation (ego play).

We are all paving our path with our mistakes and errors. That is how we learn. Philosophy threads are nice but will not REALY deliver the lesson.
The discussion is fun, and the teaching integration is accomplished by self reflection on personal reality.

Therefore I myself do not try to teach, nor preach.

shiva777
15th December 2010, 20:19
I'm not one to avoid confrontation...lol...yes I have negative ego,just like you..just think about what I posted ,that's all..the astral heart traps of Drunvalo melchizedek can be sensed when you confront them.

Isn't the hypocrisy interesting...it's ok to confront a Illuminati and corruptions on the world stage but not ok to confront spiritual teachers and teachings...think about it

greybeard
15th December 2010, 20:23
So the Vedas were also wrong Shiva?

Thousand upon thousand years of spiritual experience wrong?

I honestly have no desire to convince anyone that I am right, I just point to those who seem to be uniform in what they say.
Its not that we live in a dualistic world we just think we do.
Polarities are different Ying and Yang for example.
Its all on a sliding scale All of less of it diminishing til non existent.
Dark is not the opposite of light just the absence of light.
Darkness has no reality, no form, you can shine light, you cant shine dark.
It takes time to see everything is on a sliding scale, non dual.
Karma is a belief but has foundation in this reality.
The rose emerging moment by moment or the scar does occur in this world, im just saying we can look at things differently "now"
Try it for size if you want, jut be fully in the moment and see how simple life is.
Karma is as it is and unavoidable. Another translation of Karma is action.
Chris
Namate

shiva777
15th December 2010, 20:29
Chris ..just writing
"I honestly have no desire to convince anyone that I am right"

doesn't make it so..

.how many times have you repeated the same thing in your "ego" thread,
I understand that you don't get that people can be deceived by higher dimensional false "enlightened" states and "gods" for 1000's of years and that distortions in our DNA LEAD US TO DISTORTED spaces in the "now" if we do not heal those distortions...things may not be as simple as the "distortions" teach and lead you to
it seems you are trying to convince people,,,and that's OK,just be honest with yourself and admit it...lol..

Decibellistics
15th December 2010, 20:44
Shiva.....good points mate. I'd have to agree. Granted that Yahweh is a false narcissitic god.........which i suppose is your point in the third to last post.

I have to ask. Do ya think that dualism arose from this concept. I mean really it came out of Zoranastrianism (sp?) I guess but yea.

I also find it extremely interesting that there seems to be two schools of thought on the subject.

I dunno....I've always been under the impression that in order to transcend and reach Nirvana, you have to do away with karma completely. Considering that most all higher dimensional teachings have been bastardized over the years.....some more than others......and yet they all seem to describe this dualistic karmic retribution system. Does that not then mean that karma should be relinquished. I guess what I'm saying is that, in order to get rid of it you have to throw away everything else. It's like learning how to walk again. I dunno....I'm rambling. Here comes the inability to articulate, with any just a literary beauty, such a complex subject.
It might exist.....in some realms....but it doesn't mean anyone should be a part of it. spiral out. move on up.

greybeard
15th December 2010, 20:48
Shiva I only write because people express an interest on the Ego what is it? thread. Over 11thousand visits, The thread also has longevity and of course Avalon has new people joining all the time.
Im not saying im right and there are different points of view presented on that thread.
All I can say is that because the thread represents the teaching of many different enlightened teachers it has a certain validity that the teaching of one teacher cant have. Its like a cross reference.
Im sorry for being a bit off topic but it all ties in with Karma.
The Karma of some is not to have the discernment to tell truth from false hood, not that it matters Krishna said "All are mine even those who run in the wrong direction"
Honestly I m not trying to convince there is no need to, Im just enjoying the Cosmic Dance, Consciousness at play.
Just passing time enjoyably debating with friends.
Regards Shiva
Chris

Decibellistics
15th December 2010, 20:57
Shall we all dance? :)

shiva777
15th December 2010, 21:05
of course " people express an interest on the Ego what is it? thread. Over 11thousand visits,"...the ego issue is the MAIN issue for anyone interested in spirituality

I found this statement you made particularly ironic

"The Karma of some is not to have the discernment to tell truth from false hood, not that it matters Krishna said "All are mine even those who run in the wrong direction"

talk about not having discernment and being clouded by karma...lol...as Krishna is one of the "God's" that leads people to very distorted dimensional "bliss states" teaching people to chant his name over and over again,to attune to his FALLEN frequency and feed his martrix that relies on the same distorted teachings around your beliefs of transcending ego...

Some of the "god's" in the vedas were truly enligfhtened but as with Jesus,their messages were distorted to feed the control systems and to feed some of those gods that fell

...some food for thought...

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 21:10
Shall we all dance? :)
http://www.animationplayhouse.com/friday1.gif

And a dance with Karma and duality is required as well:
http://www.heathersanimations.com/dance1/dance.gif

Decibellistics
15th December 2010, 21:17
TRANSCEND LOL I kid.....I kid

PathWalker
15th December 2010, 21:24
..just think about what I posted ,that's all..the astral heart traps of Drunvalo melchizedek can be sensed when you confront them.

Almost there, I was quoting/referencing lessons from 'Law of one' and Kabbalah.

truthseekerdan
15th December 2010, 21:50
Here is another view perspective about karma... Enjoy! ;)

"Nanci Danison discusses what she learned in the afterlife about karma, reincarnation, and why we choose to come into human life."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo8szDkpcsM

Gone002
15th December 2010, 22:30
There are no answers to these question, find what works for you good or bad. try to help others and never give up .

Hiram
15th December 2010, 22:48
I really like listening to Nanci Danison.

Thanks Dan...

Lettherebelight
15th December 2010, 22:52
I heartily agree with you, Chris, about finding out the truth from a self realised soul. Who that enlightened soul is, will vary from individual to individual, according to the nature of their consciousness. Good luck to everyone finding their self realised soul!*

I guess for some people, that person might be themselves!

'Karma' is a Sanskrit word meaning action. And we know universal law states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Just as this law applies to gross material energies, so it also applies to the more subtle material energies: mind, intelligence, false ego. I got that. So what then of anti-material energy?

I most heartily agree with Pathwalker's points on duality. To quote the Bhagavata Puranas: 'achintya beda beda tattva', (the absolute truth is simultaneously one, yet differentiated). Everything is there in the whole. *We're all one, yet we're all individuals. Magic!

Sorry if I'm reiterating your points, Chris and Pathwalker (but they were such good points!), I'm going with a stream of consciousness...

With respect, Shiva 777, who is to say that 'healing, loving, and integrating ' the ego, is not just another way of saying 'transcending' our ego?...It's really just down to semantics; same idea, just differently expressed, oui? (yah, si, yes ?)

Ego refers to the concept of one's self. What is the self? Who are we? Am I this body? Am I just what's going on in my mind? Something more that I'm not quite sure of? That's why people refer to the 'lower' self and the 'higher' self, or ego.

*We can't really denounce anyone's particular perspective. *In terms of consciousness, understanding, belief system (whatever you want to call it), everyone is exactly where they are meant to be at this point in time. If someone is at the point where they've understood 2+2=4,
I must accept that that is true and that is their level of understanding, even though I am aware of algebra, geometry, calculus, etc. All that person needs is time and a good teacher...or maybe given enough time (a lot of time), they can work it all out for themselves!

Thanks, MariaDine, for the cartoons. Very funny! A little light relief on a pretty heavy thread! Ah...'guru' in Sanskrit, actually means 'heavy'...that fits!
:wave:

Gone002
15th December 2010, 23:00
"I heartily agree with you, Chris, about finding out the truth from a self realised soul. Who that enlightened soul is, will vary from individual to individual, according to the nature of their consciousness. Good luck to everyone finding their self realised soul!" sorry i couldn't quote right.

if a self realised soul tells you the truth is that not cheating, should one not find it through there own understanding and not through being told. If someone told you the TRUTH, what use would it be if you had not learned the why.

Hiram
15th December 2010, 23:04
Yes but self-realized souls rarely tell you anything. When you come to them they simply ask you questions...and you provide the answers.

Viola.

Master who am I???


Whose asking the question???

Gone002
15th December 2010, 23:06
ok i think i understand

Lettherebelight
15th December 2010, 23:24
Good point! What I meant was:

To make a comparison, whether I find gold in my own garden, or someone happens to gift it to me, it is still gold.

Truth certainly lives within us, but it may come from without as well. One thing is for sure...if you're looking for it, you're gonna get it! And when you get it, you know it!

Merkaba360
15th December 2010, 23:35
I hear a lot of duality as I read thru some of the responses.

Its not about some outside influences imposing things on us. There is no outside in a hologram. Just the holographic principle. So, any destruction done to another is done to the self in a fractal hologram.

It is not good or bad , since its just a dream. however, I guess that means the jerks wouldnt mind coming back into a dream of having the same 'seeming' pain inflicted on them. Of course consciousness cant really be harmed, but belief does create realities.

Its all about the self working itself energetically back to the Self. So, if U kill another person, you are ignorant by definition (really just killing a part of themselves). Who punches themselves in the face, except for the ignorant.

So, that ignorance stays with you until "The sea of life" brings back a situation that can "fix" your ignorance and free you energetically. They call that Karma.

Just because your idea of karma isnt real, doesnt mean anyone can cheat the holographic principles. Everything is a mental construct and your internal ignorant mind must bring you mental constructs appearing as physical to assist in your removal of ignorance. :)

Hiram
15th December 2010, 23:38
Everything is a mental construct and your internal ignorant mind must bring you mental constructs appearing as physical to assist in your removal of ignorance. :)

I agree with you. Your phraseology in this sentence brought me great joy. LOL!

greybeard
15th December 2010, 23:52
"I heartily agree with you, Chris, about finding out the truth from a self realised soul. Who that enlightened soul is, will vary from individual to individual, according to the nature of their consciousness. Good luck to everyone finding their self realised soul!" sorry i couldn't quote right.

if a self realised soul tells you the truth is that not cheating, should one not find it through there own understanding and not through being told. If someone told you the TRUTH, what use would it be if you had not learned the why.

Hi Celt
they dont tell you truth, they point to it and tell you how to remove the obstacles to you knowing it, realising it. You do the work.
hope this helps
Chris

timerty
16th December 2010, 01:25
Respectfully how then do you explain the state of enlightenment which has transcended ego and karma and is therefore free of this world and the cycle of birth and re birth?

Jesus said "I have overcome the world" and pointed out that we could do the same.
Jesus also said "The Father and I are one. The Father is within me and I within the Father" that does not sound dualistic to me.


Let me comment on this.

The concept of Ego is indeed closely related to the concept of Karma. Both concepts hold the assumption that something is better than the other(he is better than him, Good better than Bad), both are practiced with ignorance.

Ego is the exaggeration of self-importance caused by the ignorant assumption that a person is worthier than another. The original concept of Cause and Effect(Karma) was formed by the ignorant assumption that Good is worthier than Bad, hence leading to the distinction of causes and effects, Good and Bad.

To transcend Ego and Karma, one has to resolve the thinking(ignorant assumption) that something is better than the other. Everything is unique and has its own place in the Universe, all are necessary, everything simply suits their respective required function. When one can perceive this, one will be able to put away bias and attain true objectivity that leads to peace. This is the state of enlightenment that has transcended Ego and Karma.

I believe when Jesus said he has overcome the world, he meant he has overcome the world of perceived duality. He was able to overcome his perception that each of the dual polarization in duality is not better or lesser than the other. He was able to resolve bias and perceive every experience as being equal and necessary.

People are trapped in the cycles of Karma(ignorance) leading to rebirths in duality, because they still perceive one thing being better than the other--they still hold heavy illusions that one side of the wheel is heavier than the other side in energy that in turn fuels their illusion that the whole wheel is 'imbalanced' when it is not. This is why they have(want) to keep coming back to duality to sort out this imbalanced subjective bias.

The fundamental challenge of duality is found in removing the subjective bias that Cause is worthier/lesser than Effect, Good is worthier/lesser than Bad. People who still heavily distinguish Cause from Effect and believe in a karmic system that rewards Good and punishes Bad are still resolving a subjective bias found in duality. They still hold an emotionally polarized perception and are not yet enlightened.

timerty
16th December 2010, 01:42
Isn't the hypocrisy interesting...it's ok to confront a Illuminati and corruptions on the world stage but not ok to confront spiritual teachers and teachings...think about it

I agree that false spiritual teachers and teachings have to be confronted.

Everything has their own place in the Universe, however, some false spiritual teachers have gone out of place and do not suit the intended function as being spiritual teachers who can share truth. Those who can recognize the misplacement have the right to shed truth on the error. This judgment is not done by emotional superiority(Ego) but simply recognizing whether someone or something can indeed fulfill the intended spiritual function of a teacher. If some 'spiritual' teachers cannot fulfill their function, then they are simply fake and should change their function and do something else.

Of course, it would be wise to explain how the fake spiritual teachers are not capable by stating examples.

Alaois
16th December 2010, 02:50
words, words, words

Karma as I understand is simply the Law of Cause and Effect. There are also the 12 Laws of interdependent causation or origination which if your going to get in depth with it need to be looked at.

There is worldly karma and there is individual karma. Once a person realizes or experiences the inter-connectedness of all things they will have the wisdom to look at their karmic tendrils or ties and have the wisdom to transform those tendrils. Sometimes worldly karma will not allow a person to absolve their personal karma. Wala, that's where ones life work may be involved.

Another way to look at it is all thoughts negative and positive actually have matter attached to them as in "the tentative illumination of matter" And although mostly unapparent to the "naked eye" A negative thought already in everyone's mind-stream to subtle degrees depending on how closely they are connected (karmic tendril) to that person. As in a Hindu vasana. A World War would have a huge traumatic effect on the planet and the soul of the earth would absorb as much of the trauma as it could to protect as many humans as possible but eventually all that violent energy would need to be re-harmonized with all of earth's inhabitants including the micro-organisms.

Once all the karmic tendrils are released and all the negative thoughts and entities are transformed inhabitants of this planet will return to a state of Timeless Rapture and none of these words we are using will make sense anymore.

If anyone wants to get into great detail about karma and how negative energy traps matter (micro-organisms) I recommend this book

The Scientific Foundations of Jainism by K.V. Mardia
Motilal Banarsidass Publishers

Alaois

Alaois
16th December 2010, 03:11
Here are the 12 links (not laws) of dependent origination or arising according to buddhism. As you can see ignorance is at the top of the list.
1. Avijja (Avidya) Ignorance Lack of wisdom, which is the root of all evils. Obscuration as to self of persons and self of phenomena.

2.Sankhara (Samskara) Karma formations Compositional action Wholesome or unwholesome thoughts, speech and bodily deeds.

3. Vinnana (Vijnana) Conciousness Normally 6 consciousnesses but is taken as 8 in the Yogacara School.

4. Nama-rupa Name & form Corporeality & mentality Mental & physical existence. 4 mental aggregates and one physical body.

5. Ayatana (Shadayatana) Six bases Six sense organs/spheres Eye, ear, nose, tongue, touch and mental faculty.

6. Phassa (Sparsha) Sense impression Contact A mental factor and period in which the objects, sense power/organ and conciousness come together, causing one to distinguish an object as pleasurable, painful or neutral.

7. Vedana Feeling Sensation Posited as a mental factor that experiences pleasure, pain and neutral feeling. Pleasure leads to a strong desire for more while pain generates an avoidance desire.

8. Tanha (Trishna) Craving Attachment A mental factor that increases desire but without any satisfaction.

9. Upadana Clinging Grasping A stronger degree of desire. 4 basic varieties: desired objects, views of self, bad system of ethics and conduct; and other bad views.

10. Bhava (Bjava) Process of becoming Existence A period lasting from the time of fully potentialised karma up to the beginning of next lifetime.

11. Jati Rebirth

12. Jara-marana (Jaramaranam) Ageing & Death Decay & Death

The Samkhya philosophy which is said to have pre-dated buddhism and Hinduism but probably not Jainism (not sure about all this) holds by the tenant that "Pain is Evil" as in contrast to the buddhist tenant that "All Life is Suffering" which I agree through wisdom we can find the source of our pain as Evil being hand in hand with ignorance. Which goes to say:

If there is one ignorant person on this planet, then we are all ignorant. Even if its to the subtlest degree.

Alaois

RedeZra
16th December 2010, 03:49
What is karma if not 'intent -> activity -> result'


the seed of intent grows into activity and yields the fruit of result

if one finds the fruit of result bitter then sweeten the intent and the activity


Karma makes no mistake - it serves the right order

timerty
16th December 2010, 04:00
if a self realised soul tells you the truth is that not cheating, should one not find it through there own understanding and not through being told. If someone told you the TRUTH, what use would it be if you had not learned the why.

The real test of spiritual development is not from how much true knowledge a person gets, it is determined from the person's ability to recognize truth. This recognition can only be obtained with the practice of logic and reasoning when we search for the truth.

timerty
16th December 2010, 04:32
words, words, words

Karma as I understand is simply the Law of Cause and Effect.

Research of many cultures will tell you that Karma is not just about Cause and Effect.

"Cause and Effect" is just an ancient backdated concept replaced with the modern concept of "linear time", which also has been argued to be an illusion based on the theory that everything in the Universe has already happened but we chose to focus our consciousness on this particular moment that we 'think' is the present.

timerty
16th December 2010, 04:54
My recollection is that Dr. Micheal Newton, a regression hypnotist has done the same.

35 years 7800 patients, at last count, which was years back. He's retired (but still working) but my understanding is that a notable amount of those people were regressions, regressions specifically into what people were doing BETWEEN lives, not while in them. He gets into specifics and details within the scope of this area of research and understanding.

Someone from the other 'split reality' known as the Project Camelot forum has also told me about him, in reply to an identical thread I posted there. I also got to read his book "Soul Journeys" at the bookstore yesterday.

Michael Newton-Past Life Therapy-Journey Between Lives 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QDT58Q6Zxo&feature=related

Alaois
16th December 2010, 05:23
Research of many cultures will tell you that Karma is not just about Cause and Effect.

"Cause and Effect" is just an ancient backdated concept replaced with the modern concept of "linear time", which also has been argued to be an illusion based on the theory that everything in the Universe has already happened but we chose to focus our consciousness on this particular moment that we 'think' is the present.

Hi timerty, one can make the argument that yes it can simply be put that way as a generalization for a bigger topic about karma which I thought my post explained. And, yes timerty, I have studied karma in other cultures as I thought was self evident in posts.

I can argue that karma being simply cause and effect based on what RedeZra terms intent - activity - result or another to describe is intention - motivation - action which correlates to thinking - feeling - and willing mind. Which if working in harmony are inseperable in nature.

For instance the battle of Good and Evil

From my studies and past life memories I have ascertained that Evil brought death to eternal beings at some point in the past. It had it's cause and subsequent effect. And God, the Universe and eternity had it's own cause and effect relating to the eventual transformation and extinguishment of death altogether someplace in the future. Which feeds into the idea or construct "that Everything in the Universe has already happened". For once we return to deathless state of eternity all of this stuff we are experiencing will go away forever. And we will go back to experiencing life as we once were eternal beings that had no beginning until death was brought in the picture.

This is all semantics of course, but truth is truth. And pulling one sentence out of a teaching or post for that matter on not paying attention to what the rest is saying is simply, well, the wrong way to go about studying. Ask any authentic teacher.

Alaois

Alaois
16th December 2010, 06:49
To put it another way, we have microorganisms caught in space, invisible to the naked eye, trapped there by negative thoughts, feelings and actions. Until all humans purify their environ paying attention to their own thoughts, feelings and action and how it affects everything around them. What causes and effects their imprint is leaving on this earth. Then there is going to be karma to resolve for each person. Until one day Evil is removed from the earth, the Eye of the Pyramid (capstone) is returned to Giza, all those microorganisms at the Pyramid of Giza come alive and the Earth is returned to Eternity where nothing ever dies not even microorganisms and the trees grow into big canopies of the sky again. Yes, then everything we are experiencing here is an illusion excepting what was here when once eternal beings had their original face before death was experienced.
So then in a conventional sense karma is real and not to be ignored.
Ultimately all eternal essences will be released in the environ never to experience Evil again. And a whole New World will emerge excepting that we were once here before. As we have existed time immemorial.

Alaois

timerty
16th December 2010, 08:12
words, words, words

Karma as I understand is simply the Law of Cause and Effect. There are also the 12 Laws of interdependent causation or origination which if your going to get in depth with it need to be looked at.

And, yes timerty, I have studied karma in other cultures as I thought was self evident in posts.

And pulling one sentence out of a teaching or post for that matter on not paying attention to what the rest is saying is simply, well, the wrong way to go about studying.


Your concept of Karma related to Jainism and Buddhism as a form of causation that does not involve moral judgment by God has already been listed in my original post. If you are aware of other concepts of Karma that involves a judging God, they are not evident in your posts. You only referred Karma to Jainism and Buddhism and the 12 Laws.

You claim that others post too much words or terminologies "words, words, words" and yet you post and preach so much non-discussion related words(12 Laws) yourself. You need to pay attention to your own advise and stop being an egotistic hypocrite.

Alaois
16th December 2010, 08:30
timerty says;

You need to pay attention to your own advise and stop being an egotistic hypocrite.

Sorry timerty, Can't make any sense to what your saying anywhere on this thread. Have a nice day.

btw - are you on meds by chance?

Alaois

timerty
16th December 2010, 09:13
timerty says;

You need to pay attention to your own advise and stop being an egotistic hypocrite.

Sorry timerty, Can't make any sense to what your saying anywhere on this thread. Have a nice day.

btw - are you on meds by chance?

Alaois

Goodbye stupid.

Anchor
16th December 2010, 09:20
And there in a few posts you have a demonstration of some ever present laws: attraction and Karma. Two for the price of one ;)

The wheel of karma stops when you forgive.

Alaois
16th December 2010, 10:55
Ok, timerty, maybe I am stupid. But I would like to apologize for the meds comment. Being on meds myself for three years awhile back and the sensitivity of the issue. Again I apologize for that comment timerty. But:


You said timerty, the following:

Your concept of Karma related to Jainism and Buddhism as a form of causation that does not involve moral judgment by God has already been listed in my original post.


My question is to timerty,

Were in buddhist scripture have you run across such a misinformed idea as that? Find one and list it please. Buddhists even have a lot Hell scenarios for those who do wrong. Oh and yeah, the basic concept of buddhist meditation is to drop the concept of God so that you can feel the Divine Principle (known in buddhist scripture) as the indestructible diamond drop of "God" as we Westerners refer to it.
So then if all ignorance is dropped then there is no question what we are talking about regardless of what path we are following. But I'm just stupid, timerty. As you say.

Alaois

timerty
16th December 2010, 12:09
And there in a few posts you have a demonstration of some ever present laws: attraction and Karma. Two for the price of one ;)

The wheel of karma stops when you forgive.

Care to explain how you are led to your observation?

greybeard
16th December 2010, 12:34
Let me comment on this.

The concept of Ego is indeed closely related to the concept of Karma. Both concepts hold the assumption that something is better than the other(he is better than him, Good better than Bad), both are practiced with ignorance.

Ego is the exaggeration of self-importance caused by the ignorant assumption that a person is worthier than another. The original concept of Cause and Effect(Karma) was formed by the ignorant assumption that Good is worthier than Bad, hence leading to the distinction of causes and effects, Good and Bad.

To transcend Ego and Karma, one has to resolve the thinking(ignorant assumption) that something is better than the other. Everything is unique and has its own place in the Universe, all are necessary, everything simply suits their respective required function. When one can perceive this, one will be able to put away bias and attain true objectivity that leads to peace. This is the state of enlightenment that has transcended Ego and Karma.

I believe when Jesus said he has overcome the world, he meant he has overcome the world of perceived duality. He was able to overcome his perception that each of the dual polarization in duality is not better or lesser than the other. He was able to resolve bias and perceive every experience as being equal and necessary.

People are trapped in the cycles of Karma(ignorance) leading to rebirths in duality, because they still perceive one thing being better than the other--they still hold heavy illusions that one side of the wheel is heavier than the other side in energy that in turn fuels their illusion that the whole wheel is 'imbalanced' when it is not. This is why they have(want) to keep coming back to duality to sort out this imbalanced subjective bias.

The fundamental challenge of duality is found in removing the subjective bias that Cause is worthier/lesser than Effect, Good is worthier/lesser than Bad. People who still heavily distinguish Cause from Effect and believe in a karmic system that rewards Good and punishes Bad are still resolving a subjective bias found in duality. They still hold an emotionally polarized perception and are not yet enlightened.


There is a lot in what you say timerty
My present understanding is that enlightenment is a different state not better, there is no better or worse, everything serves a purpose.
Enlightenment is not a goal it is our normal state when all that prevents it being realized is removed.
We can take credit from removing the clouds from the "sun" of enlightenment but we cant take credit for the light of Truth.
We can get too intense and serious about things, we can complicate things. I see it simple.
Be kind to all life including our own no matter what .
If we can keep to the first two commandments thats it.
Then the karma (action) is beneficial to self and the "other".
The Self of the the teacher is the same as the Self of the taught.
There is only one consciousness and that is collective, that is a paradox beyond the explanation of intellect or words.
We are trying to make logical sense of that which the sages say cant be spoken of only experienced.
Ramana said "Use the thorn to remove the thorn then throw both away"
The mind is used to remove the ego then mind becomes silent.
We are left with silent awareness according to the sages.
There is no personal me left to have karma, awareness remains and is eternal.
Chris
Namaste

RedeZra
16th December 2010, 14:20
I believe when Jesus said he has overcome the world, he meant he has overcome the world of perceived duality. He was able to overcome his perception that each of the dual polarization in duality is not better or lesser than the other. He was able to resolve bias and perceive every experience as being equal and necessary.


Still Jesus criticized the religious leaders as hypocrits and whitewashed tombs

Why because He has empathy for those suppressed by the hypocrits in power and He warns them that there are dire consequences for this misuse of power and status

Gone001
16th December 2010, 17:18
Dear Timerty,

An Intelligent, thoughtful, articulate post all be it completely hypocritical. You are right, there is probably no actual Karma. But who are you to say anything in absolutes? How can you say that folks who believe in karma are ignorant then go and say something as absolute as "Ignorance is just a condition to allow for various types of human lessons or experience to occur. It is the opposing force to enlightenment. Ignorance is like the degree of difficulty you allow into a game in order to properly play and experience the game. The type of ignorance given is related to the type of lesson desired. Each person has to overcome his own type of ignorance given by his soul. " and "Ignorance is not what keeps you 'trapped' to Earth. It is the soul's desire to experience something on Earth that gets it interested or 'trapped' by the planet. There is always a reason why the soul wanted to come to Earth and not want to leave until it is done. I see it as the soul perceiving Earth like a fun arcade and not want to leave so easily." among other things. You speak with the same certainty and hostility toward others beliefs as a Christian. You even have the same certainty that your own beliefs are absolutely correct which is just as ignorant. I'm surprised anyone with your beliefs would use physics to back up his point seeing as when it comes to men there is more un-kown then known about physics. Its not spot on like Math or Chemistry. Physics Itself can be defined as "the science of matter and energy and their interactions" which is not something modern scientists properly understand. You could probably get more accuracy from an American History text then modern Physics. Not to mention who really cares if someone believes in Karma. Yes People who just do good things out of fear of something bad happening later don't have the clearest understanding, but at least there doing good things. Karma, at least makes people think. It makes you think at the very least "I shouldn't do that to somebody else because I wouldn't like it if it happened to me.". For some people it can be a useful tool to help tune the moral compass like you our I may have with meditation ect. Not one person on this planet is an authority. To shoot down someone else s beliefs and call them ignorant/wrong in favor of yours being absolutely spot on is ridiculous and again ignorant on it's own. Karma, What a silly thing to pick on. The last thing I'll say is never think you have all the answers because then you'll never learn new things.

cheers,

Aldous

Hughe
16th December 2010, 18:19
How much human understand our universe? 5% at most. Of course, it's based on the mainstream scientists' suggestion.
Scientists nowadays have to solve what's the dark matter/energy which consists of 75% of universe mass.

The claim is that Karma isn't exist is another delusion.

RedeZra
16th December 2010, 20:29
Karma implies 'as you sow so you reap'

It is a beautiful inherent order of Nature that an appleseed grows into an appletree and not some other fruit

One's own mental and emotional impressions and desires are like seeds that will naturally sprout into activity to bring forth the fruits of the impressions and the desires

if there is no inherent impression and desire then there is no karma in action

But as long as there is a seed deep within it will eventually try to fulfill it's nature and sprout into activity and so we reap the fruit of the result


If one is not interested in the fruit then dedicate it and the act to God so that He can take care of it as it is impossible to burden Infinity

timerty
16th December 2010, 20:52
The latest replies have statements that claim Karma is 'this' or 'that'. But if they come without practical examples, references to my original arguments, or solid explanations to justify their claims, then they are just irresponsible empty opinions, and there is nothing relevant to my original arguments that I can reply to.

RedeZra
16th December 2010, 20:59
Karma is just a fact of life like gravity but unlike gravity it is in no rush to prove itself ; )

BrianEn
16th December 2010, 21:31
I've read that Karma is the universal law of balance. It simply keeps things in check. On a personal level, I believe that there is Karma. I know things have a tendency to balance out in my life. Back in my younger I've put curses on people, and those were returned instantly. What happened to me is no coincidence and was very effing dangerous. I will never put another curse on anyone for any reason ever again. I learned my lesson. No more curses. At the time I was incredibly angry, unbalanced and wanting justice.

Lettherebelight
16th December 2010, 21:59
Greetings all. Just popping in to say I've read many clear, intelligent and profound responses to this thread shared with good will and good humour. It's been a real treat and a tonic to hear them!:peace:


Forget the past that sleeps
and ne'er the future dream at all...
but act in times with thee
and progress ye shall call!

Anchor
16th December 2010, 22:09
Here is the definition of karma based on llresearch's work and the law of one. This definition works for me.


34.4 Questioner: Thank you. Would you define karma?

Ra: I am Ra. Our understanding of karma is that which may be called inertia. Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

[ http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?category=Definitions&subcategory=Karma&sc=1&ss=1 ]

Additionally...


34.5 Questioner: If an entity develops what is called karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalysts that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?

Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.

John..

Victoria Tintagel
17th December 2010, 00:05
Decibellestics:
Which then means that karma doesn't exist. Your head is pulled from the sand and you see a world that was already there.
Hey Decibellistics, I think karma is either dissolving or being created. It's an ever changing process in motion, rather then a thing in itself, I think.
With your head in the sand you cannot see the world that is already there, neither can you see what happens in that world.
It's like wearing that veil, that makes us forget what's out there, behind it, in the nonphysical world.
I see the moment of pulling your head out of the sand as the start of dissolving karma.
Because you are able to always see what happens and see the consequences of your deeds and thoughts.
The effect of them on other living beings and life circumstances, resulting in a conscious choice: the release of karma or practicing kindness.


If people have to think about what the consequence of there action might be, then they might as well not even act at all. We have absolutely no time for thinking about doing. If people continue to wonder what will happen if this does. Then we are already dead. Karma is trying to teach people to be good people through the fear of bad consequences if they aren't good. The same thing our parents did to us, the same thing most all other world religions teach.

Or I'm completely wrong and all those naysayers and wars and accusations and control and evil that has taken part in history is now the reason why the world is supposedly on the brink of utter destruction.

I mean no harm by this post. I'm just practicing the 1st amendment

Thanks Decibellistics, again, I think karma is a process and that there's no judgement attached to it, only responsibility for cause and effect, our intention and motivation. Finding the courage to act out of integrity and authenticity, without knowing what will become of it or how to be sure of "a good harvest". Allowing oneself to make mistakes and have a laugh about them, breaking free from Lucifer's temptation. Rome wasn't built in a day :) I believe that we are in the middle of a huge cleansing of karma, cause we cannot bring karmic "debts and credits" into the next level of our existence. These issues , with their thoughtforms, would be manifested immediately and we would live very dangerously, I suppose :)
Blessed be, Tint.

RedeZra
17th December 2010, 04:07
Good karma binds with a golden chain while bad karma binds with an iron chain unto the wheel of birth n death... and drags us along

whatever way it's still a chain but gold is more preferable than iron when trying to break free

those that overcome the world are no longer bound by it because they have severed the fetters that bind them


they alone are the victors of life n death while all the rest are still victims

truthseekerdan
17th December 2010, 06:31
I've read that Karma is the universal law of balance. It simply keeps things in check. On a personal level, I believe that there is Karma. I know things have a tendency to balance out in my life. Back in my younger I've put curses on people, and those were returned instantly. What happened to me is no coincidence and was very effing dangerous. I will never put another curse on anyone for any reason ever again. I learned my lesson. No more curses. At the time I was incredibly angry, unbalanced and wanting justice.

Then it's true that what you do to others, you are doing it to yourself. We're all One Consciousness...:love:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCnWZncHH2Y

greybeard
17th December 2010, 09:35
Good karma binds with a golden chain while bad karma binds with an iron chain unto the wheel of birth n death... and drags us along

whatever way it's still a chain but gold is more preferable than iron when trying to break free

those that overcome the world are no longer bound by it because they have severed the fetters that bind them


they alone are the victors of life n death while all the rest are still victims

Part of Karma is desire that leads to action.
If all desires and actions are surrendered to God a desire less state arises.
Then the action known as the action of non action arises.
The theory is that if we have bad karma we have to reincarnate to "resolve" it and if we have good karma we have to come back to enjoy the so called fruits of past action.
If every the fruits of every action are surrendered to God the no karma is incurred.
We are responsible then for the action but not the end result. Intention is vitally important in the matter.
Negating karma prayers.
Morning
" I am born now from the womb of sleep,
I am determined to carry out all acts as offerings to Thee with Thee ever present before my minds eye.
Let my words thoughts and deeds be holy and pure.
Let me hurt no one
Let no one hurt me.
Guide me direct me this day.
Amen

Before gong to sleep.

"Beloved the burdens which I placed on you this morning are now over.
It was You who made me walk and talk and think and act.
I therefore place at Thy feet all my words thoughts and deeds.
Receive me now I am coming home to Thee.
Amen".

Chris
Namaste

RedeZra
17th December 2010, 15:35
Part of Karma is desire that leads to action.
If all desires and actions are surrendered to God a desire less state arises.
Then the action known as the action of non action arises.
The theory is that if we have bad karma we have to reincarnate to "resolve" it and if we have good karma we have to come back to enjoy the so called fruits of past action.
If every the fruits of every action are surrendered to God the no karma is incurred.


it is our own dreams and desires that turn the wheel of birth n death ; )

once in motion we come along sometimes leading and sometimes following our own karma cartwheel


it's not easy to stop it if one doesn't want to stop it


as karma is fueled by our own dreams n desires one could go on forever n ever in an inescapable round dance around oneself


so if one really wants to break free one has to restrict the free rein of the desires and put some ceiling on them

this takes discipline


But one is not alone in such a struggle as God will help


So dedicate the act and the result to God so that He can lessen the burden and burn some of that karma before it burns you ; )

Gone001
17th December 2010, 17:10
Well Timerty, It is clear then that reading isn't one of your strong suits. I myself rebut-led your physics argument. This is just embarrassing now..

Lettherebelight
17th December 2010, 19:05
A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still.

Alaois
17th December 2010, 19:11
If all desires and actions are surrendered to God a desire less state arises.
Then the action known as the action of non action arises.




There is nothing to do because she is already there.

Alaois

Anchor
17th December 2010, 22:47
One way to shorten karma that may otherwise run for some time is to consciously take responsibility for everything you do. This way you more closely observe the effects of your actions and this obviously brings about a greater urgency to bring closure to situations in which you perhaps would have done things differently in hindsight - or maybe you have undertaken a negative action (from your point of view) and would prefer the inertia of that action to be arrested.

I think this is what "instant karma"[1] is - it probably happens more commonly to people who are consciously taking responsibility for what they do. Not only are they more likely to notice it and its workings, but they also are probably more adept at dealing with it due to practise.

John..

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Karma! (John Lennon)

BrianEn
17th December 2010, 23:56
One way to shorten karma that may otherwise run for some time is to consciously take responsibility for everything you do.


I agree. It really helps when things aren't going so well for me, and that I need to change my behavior to get different results.

timerty
20th December 2010, 09:34
Resolving The Polarized Ego and Karmic Cycles of Discrimination

The concept of Ego is the exaggeration of self-importance that also creates exaggerated discrimination. People with Ego hold the assumption that something is better than the other(he is better than him, Good better than Bad).

Ego is the exaggeration of self-importance caused by the ignorant assumption that a person is worthier than another. People functioning in aggressive ego-driven societies are those who constantly use criteria to discriminate others' ability to fit into such societies and be able to contribute and sustain such polarized societies.

The original concept of Cause and Effect(Karma) was formed by the ignorant discrimination that Good is worthier than Bad, hence leading to the distinction of causes from effects, Good from Bad.

To transcend Ego and Karma(ignorance), one has to resolve the ignorant and superficial assumption that something is better than the other. Everything is unique and has its own place in the Universe, all are necessary. Everything hold unique qualities to fulfill their respective compatible types of function or purpose. When one can perceive this, one will be able to put away bias and hatred and attain sufficient objectivity that leads to peace. This is the state of enlightenment that has transcended Ego and Karmic cycles of discrimination.

People can be trapped in the cycles of Karma(ignorance) leading to endless human incarnations, because their ignorance causes them to continually perceive one thing being better than the other. This is why they have(want) to keep coming back to duality to resolve the ignorance of knowledge that creates this polarized subjective bias.

The fundamental challenge of polarized duality is found in removing the polarized subjective bias that Cause is worthier/lesser than Effect, Good is worthier/lesser than Bad, Masculine(active) is better than Feminine(passive). Those who still heavily distinguish Cause from Effect and believe in a karmic system that rewards Good and punishes Bad are still resolving a polarized subjective bias found in duality. They still hold onto an emotionally polarized perception and are not yet enlightened.


Taken from my Facebook Group,
Know Thyself and Return to Soul: Way of True Ascension & Enlightenment 2012
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=16582554870