My cat likes to kill

[CO2]

We adopted a cute grey cat from the SPCA a couple of months ago. We love her and she loves us. Or does she really?

It just dawned on me today; whenever I take this adorable cat outside it wants to kill, torture, and eat small animals like squirrels, mice, and other rodents. This cat has even ripped the limbs off a few lizards and then took the pleasure in watching them die a slow death. This cat is no pussy.

I own an animal that has the murder gene in it. After it kills it tries to cuddle up to me and my wife acting like it's a cute fur ball or something. Is she really that appreciative of our rescuing her from that shelter? Or does she just appreciate the fact that we gave her a new home where it's possible for her to perfect her act of killing, maiming, and destroying other weaker lifeforms than herself? (I don't see her tearing off after our neighbors pit bull for crying out loud. She's a coward too.)

Our world is filled with people and other animals that carry this same exact death gene. It hides under false smiles and makes good with you and then when you turn your back- wham! It strikes.

(You approach me with ill intent the moment you touch my skin I'll put my mind into your bones and seal your breath!)

But seriously; how is God going to cut this thought pattern off. I mean from an end time scenario prospective? Or will it be left to the awakened ones to figure it out while working alongside with God? Does God do this one alone or as a collective family unit? I mean this murder gene is found everywhere. Just look at the wars going on in our neighborhoods and overseas.

Will God finally cease His thought for a brief second to sever this one thought energy and then a second later recreate? Will this method save my cat and others like her?

[TargeT]

Will God finally cease His thought for a brief second to sever this one thought energy and then a second later recreate? Will this method save my cat and others like her?

What if you, the cat, and the lizard are all the same thing?

What if the idea of murder is a completely human one (it is).

What if death is perfectly natural and the ONLY guaranteed outcome of life?

Who are we to judge this cycle of life? How can we label it good or bad?

I think you should celebrate your cat, she's being exactly what a cat should be; why would we ever want to change that?

[raregem]

Fascinating.
Once my cat brought me a live, somewhat injured bird and dropped it at my feet. I was told this was an act of gifting.
The way you write has me thinking.......

I am not sure about the following quote...Is this from the bible? or..?

"(You approach me with ill intent the moment you touch my skin I'll put my mind into your bones and seal your breath!)"

It seems very murderous.
Is there a gene specifically for "murder"? And moreover, is this gene responsible for the enjoyment of watching the cruel death happen?
Where you speak of "God" I can't seem to follow along. I sure will contemplate it.
I cannot presume to assume what "God" will and can do. I see it so limitless that my own brain hasn't the ability (yet) to grasp the scope.
Best to you all.

[CO2]

Thank you Targe T. But what if THIS cat shouldn't act this way? What if this murder gene was passed on to her from a cat trait gene that should have not tasted blood in the first place? Why should this cat perform an action that it really doesn't want to perform but is compelled to do so anyway under a false compulsion? Worse yet; what if this cat is desiring to kill because an outside power is making it kill? Worse yet; what if the numerous energetic units of invisible frequencies are injecting her mind causing her to take on an action that is utterly repulsive to her natural instinct of wanting to be that cuddly little creature that is thanking me that we rescued her but at the same time peering outside the door in hopes that another mouse runs by? If this cat is a natural born killer then why does it not lunge for my throat every time it sees me? Why does it love me but hate smaller animals that it knows it can kill?

(By the way that arm looks formidable. I'm sure glad I didn't have to pull it on my way to winning my first arm wrestling tournament I ever entered.)

[Pam]

Will God finally cease His thought for a brief second to sever this one thought energy and then a second later recreate? Will this method save my cat and others like her?

What if you, the cat, and the lizard are all the same thing?

What if the idea of murder is a completely human one (it is).

What if death is perfectly natural and the ONLY guaranteed outcome of life?

Who are we to judge this cycle of life? How can we label it good or bad?

I think you should celebrate your cat, she's being exactly what a cat should be; why would we ever want to change that?



Those are some really thought provoking questions, Target. I have a huge discomfort living on this planet with it's predator/ prey life cycles. I always suspected that the discomfort I feel comes from my projections of my fears and anxiety onto ways of this world that I simply don't understand. I doubt that animals waste a minute living in fear and angst unless they are directly attempting to save their own lives, then it is probably not fear or angst, maybe it's merely survival instinct. Mostly, they are in the moment, pure and simple. I would love to understand that.

[Magnus]

A long time ago, I was offered a kitten and I accepted, this cat was all black, a most gentle, kind and pleasant spirited cat, it was totally devoted to me, we really enjoyed each others company, this cat was both lovely and peculiar, it really could pick up my every emotion, thoughts whishes which it acted upon. We had strong telepathic bond based on respect and mutual affection, otherwise not so common in my life. I miss that cat, one day it just vanished while i was mowing the lawn and the cat was outside playing. Presumably a hawk made its move. The bond was broken, i could no longer feel the cat. Poor, poor friend, a very rare and valuable friend, It hit me pretty hard emotionally, a great loss.

A few months later, another friend offered me a new kitten, again I accepted. Big mistake, how could I even pretend...

This new kitten was in every possible way the exact opposite of the cat i previously had lost. It was all white and all evil, those of you who have watched the movie "The Exorcist (1973)" should have a good idea of what my second kitten was like. Terrible spirit in that one. Also this cat disappeared while outside, sorry to say, but this time the parting was a relief.

[PurpleLama]

Felines are carnivores. Why is there even a question?

[Althena]

Felines are carnivores. Why is there even a question?

I'm with you, I don't get it. Asking why a cat is a predator??

[applepie]

I also have a cat adopted from a shelter. She is very affectionate, loyal and loving to me. She loves being outdoors and hunts chipmunks and she is very good at it. My neighbours complained that they do not enjoy watching my cat killing chipmunks and I must say I totally understand their concern. So, I put a chain with a bell around my cat's neck. Now, when she goes hunting the chipmunks can hear my cat coming and run for cover. My cat is not evil or bad, she merely follows her nature' instinct. Peace in my neighbourhood has been reestablished and all is well again. Simple solution!

[mojo]

You might put a small collar and bell on the cat to help warn the prey.

[PurpleLama]

Real hunters will tend to lose the collar with the bell, while the prissy ones may relish it.

[DeDukshyn]

Cats are incapable of murder ... my goodness. Killing small animals is just what they do - how nature intended.

Cat's "play" and "kill" instincts are closely tied - kittens learn to to hunt and kill through their instinct for "play" that is strong with them as kittens -- it's how "God" made them to be successful as a species. When a cat brings you a half eaten bird / rodent and tries to bring it in your house to your bed, or at least drops it off in front of the door, it is the highest form of appreciation your cat can gesture towards you - it is you cat attempting to "pull his weight" and should be treated as such - cat scolded for such actions will resent you for rejecting their gift. (Just say "good kitty!" and quickly dispose of any remains - this will make you cat love you even more)

Many cats are "mean" to dogs when given the opportunity -- but it goes both ways - almost all dogs will chase an evading cat; the variable is just which animal has less fear, and cats do well in this arena, hence them being able to thwart bears and alligators, sometimes.

90% of people who own cats don't understand them. At all. Cats are not like dogs. They are not domesticated in the sense that a dog is domesticated at all -- they are still mostly a wild animal, but a highly individually adaptable and social one, hence why they make good pets. An indicator to support my claim that "cats are not domesticated like dogs" comes from their morphology; cats are all the same shape and roughly the same size (with the exception of a couple old specialty breeds). Dogs come in all shapes and sizes, yet are the same species -- this is a direct result of domestication, as seen somewhat replicated in lines of domesticated foxes. Cats are adaptable and opportunistic - this is why they get along so well with humans. Ever notice a cat will get together far better with strange humans than with strange cats? Humans feed cats. Other cats don't feed other cats, unless they are close friends.

I get the sense that you don't understand cats that well - your cat is not murderous. It is just a regular cat, doing what they do. If you ever get the chance, watch a show called "My Cat from Hell" - after watching about about 4 episodes it becomes clear that 90% of peoples issues with their cats has to do with the owners not properly understanding cats. They are completely different from dogs, and they have to be accepted as they are -- still partially wild; this said, they are easy to get along with, but you have to know them to have a good relationship with them.

I had a cat once bring me home a freshly killed grouse early in the morning. Just killed it and dropped it off on the porch for me to eat. :) Best cat in the world! (of course I didn't eat it, but very well could have ... grouse are good eating :))

[TargeT]

Peace in my neighbourhood has been reestablished and all is well again.

What about the poor frustrated cat?


I own a lot of horses (hell, a lot of animals) My horses dietary needs are COMPLETELY met by me, zero grazing is needed... but psychologically its HIGHLY needed, it relaxes them and clearly effects their mood (and health, as their intestines are not designed to be fed "twice a day by humans" but to be constantly processing vegetable matter).

I think, in general, humans are very arrogant, we always want to dominate and change things to our liking (or worse, what we think "is best") (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/may/20/gulf-oil-spill-chemical-dispersant) when we SHOULD be observing how things function and fitting our self into that system in a complementary way. I strive to live that way as much as I can & for the most part it's "better" than before when I was less observant & analytical.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.... some would say a "consequence" and we humans are GREAT at "unintended consequences". (http://thoughtcatalog.com/michael-koh/2014/01/30-unintended-consequences-of-global-events-that-shaped-where-humanity-is-today/)

[DeDukshyn]

Peace in my neighbourhood has been reestablished and all is well again.

What about the poor frustrated cat?


I own a lot of horses (hell, a lot of animals) My horses dietary needs are COMPLETELY met by me, zero grazing is needed... but psychologically its HIGHLY needed, it relaxes them and clearly effects their mood (and health, as their intestines are not designed to be fed "twice a day by humans" but to be constantly processing vegetable matter).

I think, in general, humans are very arrogant, we always want to dominate and change things to our liking (or worse, what we think "is best") (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/may/20/gulf-oil-spill-chemical-dispersant) when we SHOULD be observing how things function and fitting our self into that system in a complementary way. I strive to live that way as much as I can & for the most part it's "better" than before when I was less observant & analytical.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.... some would say a "consequence" and we humans are GREAT at "unintended consequences". (http://thoughtcatalog.com/michael-koh/2014/01/30-unintended-consequences-of-global-events-that-shaped-where-humanity-is-today/)


I recently had to make the unwanted decision to force my two cats to full indoor status. They've basically since gone retarded. Seriously, OCD already starting to set in. Cats need large territories to perform optimally.

[TargeT]

I recently had to make the unwanted decision to force my two cats to full indoor status. They've basically since gone retarded. Seriously, OCD already starting to set in. Cats need large territories to perform optimally.

I have a mongoose in a live trap sitting next to me right now (way worse than just stuck inside unfortunately), at times she paces incessantly (this is called stereotypic behavior, it's a BAD sign for the psychology of the animal)
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I'm attempting to tame the mongoose, but if I don't see any progress soon I'll let her free.... it's probably about the most obvious sign that the situation with the animal needs to change (super common in zoos).

[DeDukshyn]

I recently had to make the unwanted decision to force my two cats to full indoor status. They've basically since gone retarded. Seriously, OCD already starting to set in. Cats need large territories to perform optimally.

I have a mongoose in a live trap sitting next to me right now (way worse than just stuck inside unfortunately), at times she paces incessantly (this is called stereotypic behavior, it's a BAD sign for the psychology of the animal)
...

I'm attempting to tame the mongoose, but if I don't see any progress soon I'll let her free.... it's probably about the most obvious sign that the situation with the animal needs to change (super common in zoos).

I watched this great documentary once on cats, and if given the space and freedom, the average male tom house cat will mark out a territory of "trail" of about 1 mile in length (or was it a square mile?) that covers an area, usually in a loop that ends up back at their "home". They will walk this path every day, and defend their territory from other animals and other cats, and it serves as their personal hunting / playground. Given this, a cat is really adapting from its desired norm to be able to reasonably live happy with an "indoor" status - a testament to their incredible adaptability. I'm sure my cats will survive, but one of them has started to make "long routes" to get from certain points to others in the house. I guess to make the place "feel" bigger. A bit funny to watch him when he's in a hurry, still often take the "long" route. :)

[TargeT]

I watched this great documentary once on cats, and if given the space and freedom, the average male tom house cat will mark out a territory of "trail" of about 1 mile in length (or was it a square mile?) that covers an area, usually in a loop that ends up back at their "home". They will walk this path every day, and defend their territory from other animals and other cats, and it serves as their personal hunting / playground.

I'd say a domesticated cat that gets food from a house may have a territory of 1 square mile or larger, we work with feral cats & leverage this, fixing and releasing male strays helps to keep the population in control as they WILL defend their territory and the females with in it ;)


Feral cats have been known to have a territory of up to 1,351 acres (https://news.illinois.edu/blog/view/6367/205315)... MASSIVE!

[Flash]

My daughter and I are having a brawl about these cat killers. We came up with this within a few seconds:

CO2 you may need some O2
To think it through

Quick take a pill
Before the kitty cat kills

And don't go bezerk
While he purrs
And peels off your furs

Don't be so blind
To the warning signs
Of the dead mouse on your floor
And what waits behind your door


Anyhow, we had a good time.. When our cat was alive, she would not chase mice and birds because she had a small bell on her neck so animals would be warned, but she would chase cicadas, and bring them in the house still alive, and throw them at me. I knew it was a nice gifty from her, however I would jump and scream every single time. Despite this, she still kept pitching cicadas at me. And we loved her for her purring, her hugging, her eating grass and throwing it up, and her true hunter nature.

[Isserley]

Felines are carnivores. Why is there even a question?

I'm with you, I don't get it. Asking why a cat is a predator??

I agree..

Cats are predators and they can seem very cruel from our point of view. I see no need for surprise, it's something that should be accepted as a reality.
The gene for the killing is actually instinct because cats are predators and carnivores that do not kill because they are evil or mentally ill but because it is part of their nature.
Through plaing with prey, younger cats often learn hunting.

[KiwiElf]

Your cat is perfectly "normal" - that's what cats "do" - swap it for a goldfish! :)

[greybeard]

I don't think cats have a concept of "kill".
I prefer dogs.

Chris

[jake gittes]

We adopted a cute grey cat from the SPCA a couple of months ago. We love her and she loves us. Or does she really?

It just dawned on me today; whenever I take this adorable cat outside it wants to kill, torture, and eat small animals like squirrels, mice, and other rodents. This cat has even ripped the limbs off a few lizards and then took the pleasure in watching them die a slow death. This cat is no pussy.

I own an animal that has the murder gene in it. After it kills it tries to cuddle up to me and my wife acting like it's a cute fur ball or something. Is she really that appreciative of our rescuing her from that shelter? Or does she just appreciate the fact that we gave her a new home where it's possible for her to perfect her act of killing, maiming, and destroying other weaker lifeforms than herself? (I don't see her tearing off after our neighbors pit bull for crying out loud. She's a coward too.)

Our world is filled with people and other animals that carry this same exact death gene. It hides under false smiles and makes good with you and then when you turn your back- wham! It strikes.

(You approach me with ill intent the moment you touch my skin I'll put my mind into your bones and seal your breath!)

But seriously; how is God going to cut this thought pattern off. I mean from an end time scenario prospective? Or will it be left to the awakened ones to figure it out while working alongside with God? Does God do this one alone or as a collective family unit? I mean this murder gene is found everywhere. Just look at the wars going on in our neighborhoods and overseas.

Will God finally cease His thought for a brief second to sever this one thought energy and then a second later recreate? Will this method save my cat and others like her?

So, you're not familiar with the food chain, huh?

[Iloveyou]

A question which would never have come to my mind. Sure, cats are predators and kill their prey, and even do that in a ritualistic way. I often watched that, too. But your great question makes me think in a wider context.

The facts: there are species on earth that hunt and kill, they even seem to find satisfaction in it (apart from satisfying their hunger or keeping their young ones safe). That's instinct, it's natural, their way to exist, isn't it? Why accept such a statement without a doubt. Where is the line to be drawn between that and human behavior? I have not the slightest philosophical idea why and how intentional killing has come into existence, I just cannot accept it as a part of life. Death yes, but not killing.

Another thought: Compare the way how wild animals that were never domesticated kill (a quick bite to the neck or throat to provide food) to the examples of cats 'playing' with their prey, above. Has this 'murder instinct' (satisfaction out of killing, torturing, watching a living being die, instinctive or not) emerged with the first 'modern' humans, aeons ago? (modern = abused and corrupted by unhuman forces)?

And why do we call those evil (unhuman or only partly human) forces that suppress humanity and suck up their life energies) predators, too?

I'm always feeling uncomfortable and suspicious with: perfectly normal, natural way, should be accepted as a reality, the way it is supposed to be. Most probably these thoughts are too far-fetched, at least I'm jumping not only from A to C, but from A to F instead of going step by step, as I've often been told. I can't help it.

[Sunny-side-up]

From kittens they learn to hunt with games, hunt games.
Some are better than others at these games and to us they are not nice games.

My cat raids the laundry bag and brings me rolled up socks as a gift, she sounds so proud of here hunt trophy.
So it is not the object/animal it's self that the cat is having any harmful intent towards, just part of the game of life.

Cats watch and wait for the sock, er animal to stop moving, that is why they watch not out of meanness.
Animals/humans can learn to play dead which has saved many a life from predictors like Big Cats and Bears.

In a related way when I was bitten by a snake which held on tight. The snake was biting and holding on tight not out of spit, but because it was scared. It let go after I played dead for 5 mins.

[halcyon026]

This reminded me of a story involving a cat & how nicely it ties into the idea of coming to accept the very nature of our incarnations in the 3D.



Ram Dass: I was in Guatemala, and one of the women, these widows whose husbands have been murdered before their eyes, one of these women said to me through a translator, "Thank you so much for leaving your home and family to come and help us." I just opened to it and I said, "I didn't. You're my home and family." I mean, who's leaving what? And I felt the truth of that at the moment. She was defining it in terms of that she was them, but I didn't see her as them. She was us. And that's part of the excitement of being willing to risk in service -- seeing the beloved in all the forms and yourself in all the forms. Instead of averting your eyes from pain and suffering, turn around and embrace it into yourself, without being afraid you're going to be drowned by it, because you know you can say no without closing your heart. These are all a part of a piece, the beautiful services a yoga is.

Q: If one carries your position to its logical extreme, it means being willing to look at the grossest, most hellish misery on the planet.

Ram Dass: All of it.

Q: And embrace it.

Ram Dass: All of it, all of it. You look just directly at -- you learn how to keep your heart open in hell. You see the horrible beauty of the universe. I remember once I was teaching down at Big Sur, at Esalen, and they gave me a house to house-sit, and it came with a cat. The cat and I became buddies, and every day the cat would come in when I was meditating in the morning, and bring in its morning breakfast, which was a lizard or something, which was usually still alive. It would sit down between my legs to eat, to be with me. I would be sitting there being with God, and I'd hear, "Squeak, squeak. Crunch, crunch," and I didn't know who to hate. I mean, I loved the cat, but suddenly the cat was a killer. And I loved the lizard, because I identified with -- you know, and I went through all the changes, and I saw it is the phenomena of nature. You've got to be able to look at it all and say, "Yes, I acknowledge it, I acknowledge it," without being so busy reacting to it that you don't -- because you don't even understand why it is that way. My ability to see around the edge of, as Rilke said, the billboard at the edge of town, being able to see just around the edge of the veil -- and I can just see a teeny little bit, just like we all can -- leads me to understand the game is much farther out than I thought it was. I mean, I can understand the term, "Suffering is grace." I can't live it. I can live it at moments, with little sufferings. But I can understand that there is a beautiful unfolding of awareness through suffering. That's what my work with the dying is about."

[CO2]

My thread has nothing to do with my cat. It has more to do with that influential power called "murder" that dwells inside of my cat (and some humans).

My cat doesn't have to kill another animal because we feed her daily. She kills because she is compelled to do so. If we did not feed her and she went off to hunt and then kill another animal in order to eat this would be justified because it would be survival then, not murder. (And even this is debatable.)

Tearing the limbs off those lizards is another weird and strange problem. Because after she did so she did not murder them; she just allowed for them to die.

Reel yourselves in and read a bit deeper into the thread.

Death can be entered into by natural causes or through a murder. The first is natural while the second is forced.

Jesus made a great point concerning the Adversary: "He was a man-killer from the beginning"-John 8:44

[Flash]

Yes, we understood CO2.

If you talk of Jesus, God made this earth with some animals having the killer instinct. As everything is perfect into God's eyes, this means this is perfect too. It has to be like this, at the present time.

One have to come to acceptance of the environment one is in, with all its sides and experiences. Cat killing instinct is one of them. This instinct is not a "murder". A murder is unatural intentional death. Cat killing is quite a natural thing happening in nature, not a murder.

Cat kill mice, rats, snakes, name it. All these are pest in our eyes. Cats help us in the control of the pests.

Did you know that the big black plague in the Middle Age in Europe, where half the population of humans died, was due to eliminating cats? The plague was carried by fleas on mice, rats and cats, which would rarely reach humans. The cat were killing the mice and rats, therefore households remained clean. But the cat population was becoming very large and an edict was pronounce to kill cats whenever one could. Once the cat population diminished, there were much more rats and mice around and the plague took hold.

Cat have their reason for being. Leave your cat out to do its job properly and everything will be fine. Take the cat in and treat it as a human, and everything goes wrong.

On planet Earth, our life depends on other's life, be it plants or animals. This involves some losing their life to provide life for others. This is how this planet works, until the time we all can feed ourselves directly from the sun's energy. Believe me, most humans are not reaching this evolutionary path yet... so let us grow, including our animals opportunities for growth.

I still truly enjoyed your thread for the opportunity it gived me to have a wonderful time with my daughter and I thank you for this.


My thread has nothing to do with my cat. It has more to do with that influential power called "murder" that dwells inside of my cat (and some humans).

My cat doesn't have to kill another animal because we feed her daily. She kills because she is compelled to do so. If we did not feed her and she went off to hunt and then kill another animal in order to eat this would be justified because it would be survival then, not murder. (And even this is debatable.)

Tearing the limbs off those lizards is another weird and strange problem. Because after she did so she did not murder them; she just allowed for them to die.

Reel yourselves in and read a bit deeper into the thread.

Death can be entered into by natural causes or through a murder. The first is natural while the second is forced.

Jesus made a great point concerning the Adversary: "He was a man-killer from the beginning"-John 8:44

[kirolak]

All living beings have different personalities - I adore animals, all kinds, & once had 16 cats, all different. My closest cat companion over the years was called La Pantera; she looked like one, but was the most intelligent, humorous soul. . she would pull the cord of the light switch as soon as I got into the bath, then scuttle down the passage (chuckling?); she brought me fried fish (!) & live mice which she would tuck into my bed clothes; she would come bouncing along & sit exactly where I indicated when I said, "On the spot!" It was a game we played. We communicated telepathically, & my deep regret is that I could not leave the front door open for her when I went to work after she had had kittens; she had to leave & enter via the small window, & I didn't have money in those days to buy cat litter. I knew she felt very let down by it. She used to teach her kittens to hunt using a big, black beetle as "prey"; I rescued him repeatedly, but she always seemed to find the same poor creature again. Eventually I had to euthanize him, as he had only one leg left - but she didn't mean anything personal by her mistreatment of him.

Since then I've had many cat companions, as well as dogs & rats, & they are each one as different as any human personalities. Some are kind (like the Saint cat, Gaura, who lived with me for a while, then left to tend to a very ill child of a neighbour.) Then there was beautiful Cassandra, who I adopted when she was already pregnant, & who ate her kittens in her deep distress.

If we ourselves eat the bodies of other creatures, what right do we have to question their morality? (FWIW I live vegan)

Cats, in particular, are obligatory carnivores & will die painfully if forced to live as vegans. Dogs don't mind at all, as long as their diet is balanced. Yet one of my current cat kids, Michimu, prefers fruit & squash to anything else, though I suspect he supplements his diet in secret.

One of my 5 dog-kids, Bella, loves fresh tomatoes & has eaten all of them from the garden, & is now starting to consume the actual plant! :facepalm: I scolded her recently & sent her for 5 minutes time out in the bathroom for stealing a tomato off a plate; next day she stole another one & sheepishly went straight into the bathroom to consume it! :) She is a real character. . . . as she should be!

[TargeT]

I don't think cats have a concept of "kill".
I prefer dogs.

Chris

I don't even consider a typical pet lab (not the working breeds) as a "dog" anymore.. they have few "dog" behaviors. Dogs are certainly more domesticated than cats, but some breeds are "more dog" than others.

I own one such breed. My dogs have a SUPER high prey drive, anything that "acts like prey" gets their attention QUICK, they will run down a cat and stand over it.. luckily they don't eat them, just dominate them.
These dogs are the epitome of pack animals and must be firmly reminded of their place in the house hold lest they end up thinking they are the pack leaders. They love to assert their dominance over anything smaller than them (at an average of 120 for females and 160 for males, that's most things, and some people) but as soon as they are acknowledged they lose interest and go on their way (assuming your not a stranger, strangers get bad treatment).

My dogs don't eat my chickens either, I assume its because they see us with them. One night a neighbors goat got loose and came in our yard, my three boerboels had pinned it to the ground and killed it before I even knew what was really going on (this breed is notorious for not barking unless confined).
http://www.buckeyeboerboels.com/images/Malaki_1.JPG

That's a good example of a high prey drive dog, there are a lot of them out there... Most people are used to Labs and lap dogs and golden retrievers and such... a true working dog is very predatory in actions and nature (luckily the pack structure over rides this mostly).

Dogs just have a crazy amount variety due to how they pass on traits predictably.



So I think dogs are a bit better of an example than cats (as cats are mostly pure predictor).

Obviously the prey drive can be abated, can be "bred out" by out side manipulation, Labs and Goldens are the perfect example, they have far less aggressive tendencies and a some times little to no prey drive (which is what kept wolves alive until we turned them into dogs).

So your premise of a "murder gene" is somewhat correct, however I don't think it's some single target able thing that gene therapy could change; more a collection of survival drives, an agent of nature, of balance... The prey/predator relationship is very important, with out it literally rivers will shift course.
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So not only does the desire to end this sacred and LONG lasting relationship not make sense, but it can drastically effect the environment that the prey and predators inhabit.

What I am, in a round about way, saying is this: your premises that murder is bad is a human notion, not an animal one, not a natural one. Each life form is given tools for its survival, in balance with the predators who are given tools for the same. We humans have one significant difference (because we function in this same system) our tools are far superior and we have the ability to self reflect and change our perspective.

right now your perspective is that your cat is murdering, I think you should change it.

We do not live as we were meant to be (too soft, too easy now, we are too safe all the time), this has led to many unhealthy perspectives.

[DeDukshyn]

I don't think cats have a concept of "kill".
I prefer dogs.

Chris

I don't even consider a typical pet lab (not the working breeds) as a "dog" anymore.. they have few "dog" behaviors. Dogs are certainly more domesticated than cats, but some breeds are "more dog" than others.

I own one such breed. My dogs have a SUPER high prey drive, anything that "acts like prey" gets their attention QUICK, they will run down a cat and stand over it.. luckily they don't eat them, just dominate them.
These dogs are the epitome of pack animals and must be firmly reminded of their place in the house hold lest they end up thinking they are the pack leaders. They love to assert their dominance over anything smaller than them (at an average of 120 for females and 160 for males, that's most things, and some people) but as soon as they are acknowledged they lose interest and go on their way (assuming your not a stranger, strangers get bad treatment).

My dogs don't eat my chickens either, I assume its because they see us with them. One night a neighbors goat got loose and came in our yard, my three boerboels had pinned it to the ground and killed it before I even knew what was really going on (this breed is notorious for not barking unless confined).
http://www.buckeyeboerboels.com/images/Malaki_1.JPG

That's a good example of a high prey drive dog, there are a lot of them out there... Most people are used to Labs and lap dogs and golden retrievers and such... a true working dog is very predatory in actions and nature (luckily the pack structure over rides this mostly).

Dogs just have a crazy amount variety due to how they pass on traits predictably.



So I think dogs are a bit better of an example than cats (as cats are mostly pure predictor).

Obviously the prey drive can be abated, can be "bred out" by out side manipulation, Labs and Goldens are the perfect example, they have far less aggressive tendencies and a some times little to no prey drive (which is what kept wolves alive until we turned them into dogs).

So your premise of a "murder gene" is somewhat correct, however I don't think it's some single target able thing that gene therapy could change; more a collection of survival drives, an agent of nature, of balance... The prey/predator relationship is very important, with out it literally rivers will shift course.
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So not only does the desire to end this sacred and LONG lasting relationship not make sense, but it can drastically effect the environment that the prey and predators inhabit.

What I am, in a round about way, saying is this: your premises that murder is bad is a human notion, not an animal one, not a natural one. Each life form is given tools for its survival, in balance with the predators who are given tools for the same. We humans have one significant difference (because we function in this same system) our tools are far superior and we have the ability to self reflect and change our perspective.

right now your perspective is that your cat is murdering, I think you should change it.

We do not live as we were meant to be (too soft, too easy now, we are too safe all the time), this has led to many unhealthy perspectives.

"Murder gene" = potential for higher expression of natural ("God intended") instinct :)

[petra]

Okay, I think I see what we're getting at?

What about the "need" to BE ABLE to kill?

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum for a moment and consider a world where people simply CAN'T kill (their feelings just won't let them), how would that pan out I wonder.

EDIT: I can imagine people not needing to kill one another (almost) but we need to be able to kill the little bugs, especially if they're trying to breed in our houses :P

[CO2]

kirolak, you are a most gentle soul.

Cassandra ate her kittens? O...M...G! Don't think I could have handled this one that well. Forget that I even wrote this thread.

[greybeard]

You certainly started some interesting threads CO2 --all credit to you.
Best wishes
Chris

[TargeT]

kirolak, you are a most gentle soul.

Cassandra ate her kittens? O...M...G! Don't think I could have handled this one that well. Forget that I even wrote this thread.

Matricide is a dark side of nature it seems. yet is it?

Nearly all the times I've saved a puppy or kitten that the mother had tried to kill or kicked out of the litter there's been issues later on.. it's like they just KNOW somethings wrong & take care of it now, instead of later.

I think there's a lesson in there somewhere, though even that disturbs me a bit... there are other times though... I've had a mother dog crush her puppies skull because it came too close to her food (food aggression, another survival technique).

But I have to pause,, that disturbing feeling is from me anthropomorphising the animals, it's not how the animals see the situation. Their perception is completely different from mine.

[CO2]

Thank you greybeard.

These threads have been in me for a while now. Ever since I was dropped to my knees over twenty years ago from a strange encounter with God I poured holy oil over myself, ran real fast, and dove headfirst into the deepest rabbit hole I could find. I slid through the teachings of Hinduism, Buddhism, Old school Christianity, and New Age. I love all TRUTH. Just wish others would have this same mindset. "Boxes" are boring. I am not that fish in that fish tank in that ocean. Life is perpetual and you better keep up with what Source, Mind, God, or the Universe is doing NOW and in whatever setting HE/SHE feels like doing it in. If an old stump preacher can mysteriously "raise" himself off the ground to tell me something and he just seems to be an old boring preacher; we all have a lot to learn.

I discovered my energy system and learned to work it and brought it with me into my martial arts training. No contact fighting. Meaning, I am learning to fight and train with my energy/breathing techniques. I train solo now so as to not scare people. I can raise, expand, and condense my vibration at will. But after reading some of the amazing stuff on this forum I feel like a puppy among the big dogs! Every single member of Project Avalon is a genius.

I have read your stuff; you bring a great power to this forum; thank you for that; I indulge greatly on all of it.

I love my cat and feel better about leaving my throat exposed when putting her bowl of food down. What I have observed is that her killing nature is only targeted for the weak and smaller animals. I'm safe. I guess I would feel better and more agreeable if I saw her tear after a Doberman Pincher to kill it. Then and only then would I agree that her killing tendencies were genuine.

[CO2]

Target? Your mind is a rare one. Very intelligent though. (The temptation of wanting to slam your arm down on the table in a friendly "pull" compels me to no end.)

If I had seen this mother dog crush her puppies head over guarding food; I would have had to...umm, escort her to the nearest pound. I have a Boston Terrier who kept peeing on our carpet, the entire length of it soiled. She doesn't do it anymore though. Now she is a well behaved pooch. I love her dearly but for some odd reason she favors my wife over me.

[TargeT]

If I had seen this mother dog crush her puppies head over guarding food; I would have had to...umm, escort her to the nearest pound..

Her behavior was totally correctable, she was not our dog however. This was the second time we had helped her through a litter (BoerBoels are very bad parents & it takes an attentive owner to raise a successful litter.

I have some experience as I used to breed BoerBoels as a hobby in Alaska (http://www.northlandboerboels.com/) (as a part of the effort to keep the breed alive, it was nearly gone at one point (http://www.allaboutdogs.net/boerboel/)) & still have a couple of dogs that are pictured on that website.

When I moved here we found a guy who had lost three litters in a row and was about to loose a third (breeding for money, and not a good breeder; but how could I not help him?) anyway, long story short.. I feel terrible for that dog, I tricked the owner into spaying her so at least she wont be used for back to back litters like before.

Lots of sad stories in animal rescue, (http://www.cruzancowgirls.com/cruzan_cowgirls_horse_rescue/) and mostly due to the humans involved.

[TigaHawk]

Cats were domesticated a great deal later than Dogs, after they had built ships for the most part.

They'd take the cat's on ships to control the rodent population, they did great as hunters / killers/

Prior to their official domestication Farmers would allow for them on their Farms as they again helped keep the rodent population under control.

Modern day man expects it to be a fluffy bundle of joy, that doesn't scratch their expensive furniture, jump onto tables or other pieces of furniture.



Thinking that it's not normal for them to kill things is absurd. They are carnivores, in the wild they'd have to hunt and kill to survive. You still have dogs that are classified as "Dangerous" because they are overly aggressive - you'll find if you look a bit further back in history their initial role while being "domesticated" was to assist humans with hunting and tracking / catching things.


The cat brings you gifts because it loves you, it never see's you hunt and catch your own food and thus knows you are a terrible hunter and would probably be unable to feed yourself if it were not for it's gracious gifts.


Also keep in mind Animals see the world completely differently to us. They know nothing about society, how we expect them to act, what is right or what is wrong. They just live, as freely as they can with the restrictions that we put on them.

[jake gittes]

My thread has nothing to do with my cat. It has more to do with that influential power called "murder" that dwells inside of my cat (and some humans).

My cat doesn't have to kill another animal because we feed her daily. She kills because she is compelled to do so. If we did not feed her and she went off to hunt and then kill another animal in order to eat this would be justified because it would be survival then, not murder. (And even this is debatable.)

Tearing the limbs off those lizards is another weird and strange problem. Because after she did so she did not murder them; she just allowed for them to die.

Reel yourselves in and read a bit deeper into the thread.

Death can be entered into by natural causes or through a murder. The first is natural while the second is forced.

Jesus made a great point concerning the Adversary: "He was a man-killer from the beginning"-John 8:44

An animal following its born instinct is not "murder." Be glad it has that instinct. If for some reason, another animal followed its instincts and chased the cat into the woods where it became lost, kitty would be able to survive with those skills. Here's hoping none of that happens, of course.

TargeT: GREAT photo! The angle causes the dog to appear to be as big as the house, making the figurative the literal. Excellent comments too, btw.

[jake gittes]

Cats were domesticated a great deal later than Dogs, after they had built ships for the most part.

Wild cats were forced to build ships?!? :Party:

Thinking that it's not normal for them to kill things is absurd. They are carnivores, in the wild they'd have to hunt and kill to survive. You still have dogs that are classified as "Dangerous" because they are overly aggressive - you'll find if you look a bit further back in history their initial role while being "domesticated" was to assist humans with hunting and tracking / catching things.


The cat brings you gifts because it loves you, it never see's you hunt and catch your own food and thus knows you are a terrible hunter and would probably be unable to feed yourself if it were not for it's gracious gifts.

:thumbsup:

Also keep in mind Animals see the world completely differently to us. They know nothing about society, how we expect them to act, what is right or what is wrong. They just live, as freely as they can with the restrictions that we put on them.

Aside from knowing about the right or wrong part, we humans could learn a lot from critters in that respect.

[raregem]

The cat brings you gifts because it loves you, it never see's you hunt and catch your own food and thus knows you are a terrible hunter and would probably be unable to feed yourself if it were not for it's gracious gifts.

As I spoke in post #3 my beautiful tuxedo cat brought me a live bird. My cat Tobi was an orphan. He would also step away from his food and allow his feral cat friend to eat first. He did this often. Then he would eat after the feral finished. Another side to grace.

[Bill Ryan]

Felines are carnivores. Why is there even a question?

Yep. :facepalm:

@ CO2: boy, are you confused!

[TargeT]

The cat brings you gifts because it loves you, it never see's you hunt and catch your own food and thus knows you are a terrible hunter and would probably be unable to feed yourself if it were not for it's gracious gifts.

As I spoke in post #3 my beautiful tuxedo cat brought me a live bird. My cat Tobi was an orphan. He would also step away from his food and allow his feral cat friend to eat first. He did this often. Then he would eat after the feral finished. Another side to grace.

but also highly explainable in the natural society of cats.

your cat wasn't a leader (most aren't there can be only 1 pride leader) and feral cats are much more intune with that.. what your cat was really doing was respecting the natural order.

My dogs do the same thing, it's visually obvious that the boerboels are the "big dogs" in our pack; you are seeing a microcosm of that (cat and dog groupings are vaguely similar). Your cat still has enough instincts (most cats that I've interacted with do) to know how to function in a pride.... I find that (the feral and domesticated integration to prides) to be very fascinating. As I've mentioned before, it's something we leverage for "feral" cat control.