ASPD (Anti Social Personality Disorder) BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)

[justntime2learn]

I noticed when a person has a Neurosis and is confronted with the truth, they will call the one telling the truth crazy or a liar.

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Have you ever tried to help someone only to become a victim?

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I have read "A sociopath next door" by Martha D. Stout and feel like capitalism isn't the answer. I also have read "Without Conscience" by Robert Hare, and I feel like I have a grasp on what i'm dealing with. I must have been too naive in recognizing the truth. I married and subsequently divorced someone just like my mom.

Does my story resonate with anyone ? Can we help each other ? Can you help me ?

[Innocent Warrior]

Your story resonates with me very much.

I want to note that I reject the psych field, their definition and approach to mental health etc. but I do have a family member who was diagnosed with BPD and I know the condition well. I've been helping her but recently she had an outburst and it involved my son, which is a no go zone. So, not my finest moment but I lost it at her and she walked out and we haven't spoken since.

My family member's outbursts and episodes can be harmful to others, she has a chilling cold side to her character and there's always the threat that it will happen at any time because what she perceives people are saying has zero to do with the intent behind their words. I have broad shoulders, it didn't bother me and I understand her so I don't take it personally and I was delighted to help because she doesn't trust anyone but me but I think I've blown that now.

Usually I would reach out to her and sort it out but I've decided not to this time. I've always sensed that if I don't reach out to her then I likely won't ever hear from her again and I've decided to allow that to happen because we've hit an unresolvable problem. She thinks she has the right to go off at people whenever she feels like it, talking down to them, saying nasty things that aren't correct and she has found my limit by involving my son. I'm not proud of the way I reacted but I'm not sorry either and I know I'll do it again if she does that with my son present again. So it's an unresolvable situation and I was only trying to help her anyway.

On the bright side. One of the things she said was that she felt invalidated by what we were saying. My son was so confused by that and when she left he asked me why people need validation from others. :) That's my boy.

You seem like you're all over this though, you seem to understand this very well. What would you like help with?

[Innocent Warrior]

I read your post again and think I've answered my own question, by help you mean support in recovering from the relationship?

Others will likely be far more helpful than I in that department, so I'll leave it at that on the thread, that I can empathise with you. If you want a friend to talk to, anytime, you're most welcome to private message me.

[DeDukshyn]

I noticed when a person has a Neurosis and is confronted with the truth, they will call the one telling the truth crazy or a liar.


You must be referring to my "wife" (common-law - doin' it for the kids! lol).

[Cara]

In my working life, I've had to work closely with three women who I would classify as toxic, suppressive and anti-social. All of them are very smart accomplished people, with lots of experience and confidence.... But they are master manipulators.

The relationships that I had with these three women did extensive damage to my happiness, wellbeing and sense of worth. They were brilliant at being the concerned and conscientious professional; taking on the role of doing "what's best for the company" while at the same time invalidating and undermining anyone competent around them. And these set ups were subtle - putting people up for projects that looked like being supportive but actually were doomed to fail from the outset, creating vacuum space into which "only you" can fill the requirement.... I could go on, but the ploys were always traps for channeling people into no win project and highly political failure....

The worst of it was the emotional outreach and understanding - they all pretended (very well) that they were supportive and helpful, that they understood my problems, that they shared my concerns.... Meantime it was just a farce and a way for them to get my trust and have me drop my guard.

I came away from each of those relationships broken in some fundamental way...

Here are some of the things which worked for me to some extent in dealing with this:

- identifying where and when it happens - I tried to remember the details of a situation and look at what I did and what they did... Looked for a repeating pattern

- coming up with an animal metaphor for what they are so I could see the issue is with them and is a behaviour they do and is not to do with me really - I was just a counterpoint or focus for their behaviour. Here is an example:
One of the woman I worked with I used to characterize as a snake. I thought about all the ways a snake behaves that might be dangerous to us but are simply the ways a snake behaves and are not personal to us. I.e. It hisses and arches back when threatened, it has poison to immobilize a threat or its prey....all these things are done by the snake because it is a snake... Not because it has something against you, it is part of its snake nature.
When I thought about this person's behaviour in this way, it helped me see it as just a facet of their nature and not really to do with me.

- trying to remove the emotional content of my interactions with them and make interactions transactional, process oriented and bland. This does not mean be rude. I was still polite and pleasant in manner but just be "professionally interested", like a good customer service person without being personally emotionally involved. This helped me a lot!

- looking inwardly to see what it is in me that is triggered by this person. Most likely there is a shadow side that is in some way resonating or responding to something they are doing. Which means that I am triggered by them when I interact with them.

For me, this last one has taken a long time and some space and distance from the relationships to look at. One of the things I realized is that I too can be manipulative and "drive an agenda" for things that I feel are the right things to do. To me this agenda looks positive and well meaning but to others it may not look that way and they might well not appreciate being "manipulated" this way. So some of this is realizing my own power to affect others... acknowledging this and fully taking responsibility for it has been hard. In some ways my self-enforced sabbatical and hermit state of the last three years is a response to this.

I am still working through all of these relationships in some way... The positive news is that one of the women - the first one who I worked with, got in touch with me a few years back and asked to have a chat. I agreed and she said she'd been doing some work in herself and realized she had never acknowledged me for the contribution I had made. Now, I had never felt this was the issue in our relationship, but still it was nice to see that she was making changes and looking at herself.

Happy to share more if you would like to hear more.

[justntime2learn]

I read your post again and think I've answered my own question, by help you mean support in recovering from the relationship?

Others will likely be far more helpful than I in that department, so I'll leave it at that on the thread, that I can empathise with you. If you want a friend to talk to, anytime, you're most welcome to private message me.

Thank you for your heartfelt response Rachel :heart:

And yes, by help I mean support :thumbsup:

And thank everyone for their comments ! I will write more when I get off of work.

[Flash]

Thank you very much Searcher. I went through the same process, and your realised points are pretty good and efficient. I believe that the woman who called you a few years later was not a hard core manipulator, since she realised what she did and was trying to evolve to be a better inner person, and was starting to have empathy through recognizing you and your work (she contacted you without having overt benefits from it, so that is a sign of being genuine). She was like us, a caught up one in objectives that most probably were not truly hers.

The main point here that i retain is that they do not behave with their hearts at all. They themselve omit through emotional depth and mostly omit interacting with love.

When we become very professional with them, avoiding our own emotions, we may have a tendency (I did) to avoid our heart as well, and here is the danger. How to be professional, not get into the emotional traps they lay, while still operating from a heart perspective? I haven't yet found the answer - except for telling myself that they have a reason for being, since they are - when we do not crumble, we grow from this - but crumbling and being destroyed are usually the results.

My own decision is now to recognize whom I am dealing with (not deny harsh reality) and get away from them as soon as I can, so that i keep my heart (love) going.


In my working life, I've had to work closely with three women who I would classify as toxic, suppressive and anti-social. All of them are very smart accomplished people, with lots of experience and confidence.... But they are master manipulators.

The relationships that I had with these three women did extensive damage to my happiness, wellbeing and sense of worth. They were brilliant at being the concerned and conscientious professional; taking on the role of doing "what's best for the company" while at the same time invalidating and undermining anyone competent around them. And these set ups were subtle - putting people up for projects that looked like being supportive but actually were doomed to fail from the outset, creating vacuum space into which "only you" can fill the requirement.... I could go on, but the ploys were always traps for channeling people into no win project and highly political failure....

The worst of it was the emotional outreach and understanding - they all pretended (very well) that they were supportive and helpful, that they understood my problems, that they shared my concerns.... Meantime it was just a farce and a way for them to get my trust and have me drop my guard.

I came away from each of those relationships broken in some fundamental way...

Here are some of the things which worked for me to some extent in dealing with this:

- identifying where and when it happens - I tried to remember the details of a situation and look at what I did and what they did... Looked for a repeating pattern

- coming up with an animal metaphor for what they are so I could see the issue is with them and is a behaviour they do and is not to do with me really - I was just a counterpoint or focus for their behaviour. Here is an example:
One of the woman I worked with I used to characterize as a snake. I thought about all the ways a snake behaves that might be dangerous to us but are simply the ways a snake behaves and are not personal to us. I.e. It hisses and arches back when threatened, it has poison to immobilize a threat or its prey....all these things are done by the snake because it is a snake... Not because it has something against you, it is part of its snake nature.
When I thought about this person's behaviour in this way, it helped me see it as just a facet of their nature and not really to do with me.

- trying to remove the emotional content of my interactions with them and make interactions transactional, process oriented and bland. This does not mean be rude. I was still polite and pleasant in manner but just be "professionally interested", like a good customer service person without being personally emotionally involved. This helped me a lot!

- looking inwardly to see what it is in me that is triggered by this person. Most likely there is a shadow side that is in some way resonating or responding to something they are doing. Which means that I am triggered by them when I interact with them.

For me, this last one has taken a long time and some space and distance from the relationships to look at. One of the things I realized is that I too can be manipulative and "drive an agenda" for things that I feel are the right things to do. To me this agenda looks positive and well meaning but to others it may not look that way and they might well not appreciate being "manipulated" this way. So some of this is realizing my own power to affect others... acknowledging this and fully taking responsibility for it has been hard. In some ways my self-enforced sabbatical and hermit state of the last three years is a response to this.

I am still working through all of these relationships in some way... The positive news is that one of the women - the first one who I worked with, got in touch with me a few years back and asked to have a chat. I agreed and she said she'd been doing some work in herself and realized she had never acknowledged me for the contribution I had made. Now, I had never felt this was the issue in our relationship, but still it was nice to see that she was making changes and looking at herself.

Happy to share more if you would like to hear more.

[GoingDeeperStill]

I just want to say that if you're dealing with someone who has BPD, cut them out of your life entirely right now... Especially if they "trust you". They are more destructive than sociopaths, in my experience, and will stop at nothing to cause drama and DESTROY everything. They are the real psychopaths and many psych professionals express frustration that they almost always cannot be helped (I did meet one outstanding psychologist who said her crowning achievement was when she helped get a BPD to straighten their lives out... Bc it's that rare). They will not stop until your life is ruined. They seem normal for a time which baits people in but then they go completely insane. Back away immediately. You cannot help them under any circumstances and I highly recommend getting and adhering to a PPO. Do NOT feel sorry for them even for a second. (I've had a lot of personal experience with a couple of them unfortunately).

[Frances2014]

'' coming up with an animal metaphor for what they are''

I did that as a child as a means of self-protection.

Dana at thriveafterabuse states this in all her hangouts:

'' DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO KEEP YOURSELF SAFE AND SANE ''

I think this applies to everyone in the awakening field.

Whistleblowers and experiencers need for people to respect their boundaries.
Which is the camelot-avalon approach I appreciate so much.

Which is way I am a truth seeker.

Authentic people with authentic relations have their fondation on truth..

With pyschopatic behaviors you get MANIPULATIONSHIPS.

Manipulationships are agenda driven relationships, Money, sex, drugs, alcool, fame, superiority, elitism, ect..

And the empathic ones will drown in misery at some point, somewhere, somehow.

A hundred years ago, children (teens...) with genetic mental defects would often kill other children and no one understood why.
Physical genetic defects were always easier to spot.
Then with genetic research, it became known that their behaviors were difficult because of the genetic defects which prevented them from reaching mental maturity.
Now, in this time, genetic research ( and magnetic resonance brain scan ) shows that the lack of frontal lobes growth from age eight ( approximatly) explains the difficult behaviors of individuals who do not mature emotionally.
The caviat is *** those people who are 8 years of age in their emotional intelligence, they rule the world we live in, in couples, families, villages, cities, countries, continents ... ***
That is why we see them everywhere those of the lies, the deceptive abusers.

As Dana says, now you see it, you are awakened to reality. (She has videos on the 40+ flags of narcissic behavioral traits, donna get trumped...)

One person cannot change the world.

For myself, I stand within myself, for a psychopatic-free life.

I stand with others who share this commitment to truth.

In every heartbeat, every breath, every moment of every event string.

All the experts, most of whom are narcissic abusers themselves, will try to hide behind fancy labels and dogmatic diagnosis, as an excuse to drug people in their early phase of awakening. They, in this, are like the alphabet forces with their rigid programmed polarity thinking, all working for the god-father of chaos, even if they do not know it. Agents come with the restraint-implants, run for your life.

The community of inner truth is dispersed accross the planet in many ethnic groups.

This a very good protection for emotional maturity in humans to unfold in the era of truth.

Emotional maturity flowers in behaviors of love, by respecting the free will of human beings, including oneself and sharing the resources of the planet with others, humans and natural beings.

We the people, I am we are.

[Flash]

I noticed when a person has a Neurosis and is confronted with the truth, they will call the one telling the truth crazy or a liar.

Neurotic people will defend their ways of understanding the world and call you a liar, yes. This is a defense mecanism.

However, ASPD (Anti Social Personality Disorder) BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) are not neurosis, they are quite different. Neurotic people are much much easier to deal with. BPD are tough to handle, and yes, I do not believe much in regular psychiatry but the definitions of these disorders helps understanding whom we are dealing with. However, BPD and ASPD ARE NOT PSYCHOPATHS. Psychopaths are in another category altogether and are destroying the world - there is no heart or love with them albeit they may try to imitate it. With BPD and ASPD, there is inner love and inner growth.

[Flash]

You may have been dealing with psycopaths diagnosed as BPD. A psychopath can be BPD as well (multiple ailments). But BPD are not necessarily psychopaths, I have seen some who knew they had problems and were truly suffering from it, although were not much able to change.

Yes, frontal lobes underdevelopment is a sign, as well as some cells in the brain linked to emotions that are not in the frontal lobes for psychopaths.



I just want to say that if you're dealing with someone who has BPD, cut them out of your life entirely right now... Especially if they "trust you". They are more destructive than sociopaths, in my experience, and will stop at nothing to cause drama and DESTROY everything. They are the real psychopaths and many psych professionals express frustration that they almost always cannot be helped (I did meet one outstanding psychologist who said her crowning achievement was when she helped get a BPD to straighten their lives out... Bc it's that rare). They will not stop until your life is ruined. They seem normal for a time which baits people in but then they go completely insane. Back away immediately. You cannot help them under any circumstances and I highly recommend getting and adhering to a PPO. Do NOT feel sorry for them even for a second. (I've had a lot of personal experience with a couple of them unfortunately).

[happyuk]

I like to see this subject in simple terms. You cannot stop a snake from being a snake.
In spite of how much you look after it, feed it, protect it etc it can and will still turn around and bite you.
Some people are just wired that way, and no amount of intervention will ever amount to making any kind of difference.
I prefer the archaic term for psychopathy - "moral insanity".

[AutumnW]

Just a quick rule of thumb here, following on what Flash has shared. Neuroses are generally anxiety or fear based. Many of those afflicted are overly scrupulous, conscientious, etc...If you tell a neurotic, 'the truth', and it contains criticism, they will defend themselves to protect their sensitive natures or agree with you.

Borderline personalities are classed as a personality disorder as is psychopathy. They aren't amenable to change. The borderline fixates on a friend or lover and elevates them, or places them on a pedestal, where they can do no wrong. They can't reconcile, (in others) grey areas. They see people through a fundamentalist angel or devil lens.

Of all the personality disorders they are probably the most difficult to deal with because their problems, unlike the psychopath, ARE rooted in fear. So your heart will go out to them. They're like Gollum, in The Lord of the Rings, who loves you one minute and hates you the next.

Their extreme fear produces behavior which mirrors behavior of psychopaths, but it comes from a different place. The borderline will toss a loved one or friend under the nearest bus, without remorse, like a psychopath will, because their fear of abandonment demands that they act first, rather than suffer the same fate, at the hands of the same loved one.

When they get to know you they will be unable to reconcile your minor flaws with the angel you once appeared to be...so you become a devil who can be discarded.

The movies, Fatal Attraction and Play Misty For Me, were about women with this disorder. And they are just that scary and their vendettas can be horrific.

Most of the cluster b personality disorders are rooted in aggression. Contrary to popular and misguided New Age thinking, not all personality problems or mental problems have a base fear origin. Some of them are rooted in pure aggression. When you are aggressing someone, you are not empathizing. And psychopaths are always manipulating, always aggressing. Narcissists, too.

[AutumnW]

I like to see this subject in simple terms. You cannot stop a snake from being a snake.
In spite of how much you look after it, feed it, protect it etc it can and will still turn around and bite you.
Some people are just wired that way, and no amount of intervention will ever amount to making any kind of difference.
I prefer the archaic term for psychopathy - "moral insanity".

Borderline personalities are definitely NOT snakes. They are the end product of terrible and extreme trauma and live in intense fear. Doesn't mean you can fix them though. In that way a simple animal totem works. But how about a dog who has been beaten so badly they can't ever be right in the head?

[Innocent Warrior]

I agree with AutumnW about BPD not being snakes but my family member has always been the way she is, I've known her since she was born and can remember her having episodes when she was a toddler (not at all normal toddler tantrums). She hasn't experienced extreme trauma, according to her, learning of my trauma traumatised her (in her teens) - fair enough, that is recognised as a cause for trauma in itself but I wouldn't call that extreme trauma. I think it contributes to her issues but, at least from my observations, her BPD was not caused by trauma. Perhaps it is the cause in some cases but, evidently, not all.

[Cara]

Thank you very much Searcher. I went through the same process, and your realised points are pretty good and efficient. I believe that the woman who called you a few years later was not a hard core manipulator, since she realised what she did and was trying to evolve to be a better inner person, and was starting to have empathy through recognizing you and your work (she contacted you without having overt benefits from it, so that is a sign of being genuine). She was like us, a caught up one in objectives that most probably were not truly hers.

The main point here that i retain is that they do not behave with their hearts at all. They themselve omit through emotional depth and mostly omit interacting with love.

When we become very professional with them, avoiding our own emotions, we may have a tendency (I did) to avoid our heart as well, and here is the danger. How to be professional, not get into the emotional traps they lay, while still operating from a heart perspective? I haven't yet found the answer - except for telling myself that they have a reason for being, since they are - when we do not crumble, we grow from this - but crumbling and being destroyed are usually the results.

My own decision is now to recognize whom I am dealing with (not deny harsh reality) and get away from them as soon as I can, so that i keep my heart (love) going.

Thank you @Flash for your - as always - warm and caring comments.

Yes, there is a big cost in not having the heart included in the interaction... it's draining and tiring. After a while I simply felt like I was running the car with no fuel in the tank... or fighting on the front lines of someone else's war. It was pointless and exhausting.

You are right, sometimes there seems to be no solution but to remove oneself from the situation and person.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Borderline Personality Disorder is not a choice. And for those afflicted, it is a far greater hell than most can imagine. This is why suicide and self mutilation are so prevalent among them.

Yes, you should only interact if you can maintain very strong boundaries. The disorder is chaotic. Like with drug addiction, you end up in a relationship with the disorder, not the person. There is likely a wonderful person in there that you can only glimpse or never meet at all.

But these people are not monsters. They are not evil. They are suffering. And they can be helped, but only by the most dedicated professionals. It takes a long time.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I think it contributes to her issues but, at least from my observations, her BPD was not caused by trauma. Perhaps it is the cause in some cases but, evidently, not all.

In some cases, the trauma can be present, but unknown and Unremembered, especially since BPD is theorized by many to be a result of a failure of individuation somewhere before the age of three.

In other cases, the trauma of the birth process itself can disregulate the nervous system to the degree that results in BPD or lingering PTSD, both of which are often misdiagnosed in children.

And still others theorize that traumas from past lives continue to play out in our current incarnations.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Some people are just wired that way, and no amount of intervention will ever amount to making any kind of difference.
I prefer the archaic term for psychopathy - "moral insanity".

This may be true, but it is not true of Borderline Personality Disorder. It can be successfully treated, though not easily. And the Borderline patient is certainly not a psychopath.

[Sérénité]

Hi Justntime2learn

Your story does resonate! It sounds like you are over the worst part (overcoming the Gas-lighting and realising it isn't you that is at fault, you've just been manipulated and mentally tortured slowly but surely over time into thinking you are)

The next part is to not get sucked back in, under any circumstances. They will promise you the moon but then go crazy at its next waxing! They will occasionally admit its them, very briefly, in order to be able to say they will change to make it work. They cant ever change without proper long term help. And they very rarely admit long term that they have an issue, only when a situation needs manipulating to their advantage. Once their goal is achieved, they then return to twisting the blame back onto you/others for their behaviour.

Its a cyclic way of life until they can finally admit they have a problem and seek help.

My childs father has BPD. Over the years he has swept through 3 women's lives resulting in a total of 5 fatherless children. He provides and cares for none and leaves a trail of destruction behind him wherever he goes. Yet we are all to blame.
He lives in a perpetual downward spiral, repeating the same behaviours and destroying everyone around him, now himself. He's now a homeless drug addict and has recently tried to take his own life and been sectioned.

So many people have wanted to help him over the years but, until he admits he has a problem it will never change.

You don't mention are there children involved? If so it makes it all the harder. You cant just run away and hide from the person with BPD (although if you can you really should!)
The children don't understand its nothing they have done/could have done. Take every measure you can to make them understand this is not how partners should be, its not how normal people conduct relationships. Its not normal full stop.
Every time these people rear their heads again (and they usually do, often, over the years) you have to make the children understand that unless the person has had help, then this time isn't going to turn out any better than the last.

It can take some time to get 'yourself' back from a person with BPD. Its great to read about it as you are doing. It helps you understand the person isn't evil and that you haven't turned them into an evil monster, they're just not very well...but until they can admit it and help themselves, nobody can help them.
It took me some time to move from a place of hate and bitterness to just feeling nothing but sorry and pity for this person. Once you can detach yourself from the emotion of it all and regain control then nothing they say or do can touch you.

Cruel irony at its best we are often attracted to those who end up mirroring our childhood idols/parental guides. We couldn't fix our parent, we maybe thought we could fix our spouse!
Promise yourself to learn the signs and recognise the traits and never go down those roads again :)

[The Freedom Train]

I just want to say that if you're dealing with someone who has BPD, cut them out of your life entirely right now... Especially if they "trust you". They are more destructive than sociopaths, in my experience, and will stop at nothing to cause drama and DESTROY everything. They are the real psychopaths and many psych professionals express frustration that they almost always cannot be helped (I did meet one outstanding psychologist who said her crowning achievement was when she helped get a BPD to straighten their lives out... Bc it's that rare). They will not stop until your life is ruined. They seem normal for a time which baits people in but then they go completely insane. Back away immediately. You cannot help them under any circumstances and I highly recommend getting and adhering to a PPO. Do NOT feel sorry for them even for a second. (I've had a lot of personal experience with a couple of them unfortunately).

Healthy boundaries are definitely an important step when dealing with difficult people in our lives. Healing starts with self love. When you feel ready, you may also benefit from an exercise of compassion for the difficult people in your life.

It is helpful to understand that these people are being manipulated in one way or another - call it entity or demonic possession, call it mind control, call it whatever you like. All I know is that it is very helpful to develop compassion for the difficult people in your life (because who knows? you may unwittingly be the difficult person in somebody else's life!). It is possible to do this when you are able to see that they are being used by dark forces as a tool, that their destructive actions are separate from the spirit/consciousness that is housed in their body.

The destructive nature of what these people do is undoubtedly a sign that they are being manipulated. It is likely they are not aware of what they doing - or if they are, they may not know how to stop it. Some people do seem to give in to it and even to relish the pain they inflict. Still, aside from healthy boundaries, compassion is key. Compassion for self (ie don't feel guilty if you feel you need to keep somebody at arm's length, block their calls, whatever), and then compassion for other.

[The Freedom Train]

All the experts, most of whom are narcissic abusers themselves, will try to hide behind fancy labels and dogmatic diagnosis, as an excuse to drug people in their early phase of awakening. They, in this, are like the alphabet forces with their rigid programmed polarity thinking, all working for the god-father of chaos, even if they do not know it. Agents come with the restraint-implants, run for your life.

SO important to remember this. Psychiatry is being used by the dark forces to control, to subjugate, to reprogram, to define what is not of itself as "other," to place restrictions on "reality," to define for us what is "normal" and therefore socially acceptable. The labels, like the drugs, are toxic.

[The Freedom Train]

There is likely a wonderful person in there that you can only glimpse or never meet at all.

Truth. Thank you, Whiskey.

On a more personal note, I would like to explain that my mother has these kinds of issues, as well as my ex husband. So when I speak on the topic, I speak from very personal, hands-on experience over many years of dealing with these things face to face. I realized I should have made that clear - I am not airy fairy hypothetical about it. I am living it.

[Innocent Warrior]

I think it contributes to her issues but, at least from my observations, her BPD was not caused by trauma. Perhaps it is the cause in some cases but, evidently, not all.

In some cases, the trauma can be present, but unknown and Unremembered, especially since BPD is theorized by many to be a result of a failure of individuation somewhere before the age of three.

In other cases, the trauma of the birth process itself can disregulate the nervous system to the degree that results in BPD or lingering PTSD, both of which are often misdiagnosed in children.

And still others theorize that traumas from past lives continue to play out in our current incarnations.

You've softened my position. I doubt strong boundaries will be honoured, I can't see her being capable, she pushed me pretty far before I lost it at her but it's not like I have to live with her.

I understand individuation developes throughout but wasn't aware it could fail so early and it fits with my family member's case, so I stand corrected. :) I'm at a loss at how that can happen so young, if you have the time to explain I'd greatly appreciate it. OK if not and I very much appreciate your reply and previous post.

I'll do my best to help her find an excellent professional. Something we've found challenging so far but I'm concerned about how she'll go without help, others around her are too much of a push over or unstable themselves.

Thank you.

[justntime2learn]

Just a quick rule of thumb here, following on what Flash has shared. Neuroses are generally anxiety or fear based. Many of those afflicted are overly scrupulous, conscientious, etc...If you tell a neurotic, 'the truth', and it contains criticism, they will defend themselves to protect their sensitive natures or agree with you.

Borderline personalities are classed as a personality disorder as is psychopathy. They aren't amenable to change. The borderline fixates on a friend or lover and elevates them, or places them on a pedestal, where they can do no wrong. They can't reconcile, (in others) grey areas. They see people through a fundamentalist angel or devil lens.

Of all the personality disorders they are probably the most difficult to deal with because their problems, unlike the psychopath, ARE rooted in fear. So your heart will go out to them. They're like Gollum, in The Lord of the Rings, who loves you one minute and hates you the next.

Their extreme fear produces behavior which mirrors behavior of psychopaths, but it comes from a different place. The borderline will toss a loved one or friend under the nearest bus, without remorse, like a psychopath will, because their fear of abandonment demands that they act first, rather than suffer the same fate, at the hands of the same loved one.

When they get to know you they will be unable to reconcile your minor flaws with the angel you once appeared to be...so you become a devil who can be discarded.

The movies, Fatal Attraction and Play Misty For Me, were about women with this disorder. And they are just that scary and their vendettas can be horrific.

Most of the cluster b personality disorders are rooted in aggression. Contrary to popular and misguided New Age thinking, not all personality problems or mental problems have a base fear origin. Some of them are rooted in pure aggression. When you are aggressing someone, you are not empathizing. And psychopaths are always manipulating, always aggressing. Narcissists, too.

This is absolutely spot on in my circumstance!

I will be sharing quite a bit and feel bad I couldn’t write yesterday as work needed me for a double shift.

Thank you all so much for the outpouring of love and knowledge :heart:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4d/26/cc/4d26cc3d121d86df23cd1ae3589b9b15.jpg

[Czarek]

What do you do if you have kids with BPD mother? Would you try to keep your kids under your care for as much time as you could get or would you leave it to a minimum, i.e. every other weekend time sharing arrangement given that BPD will turn children against me no matter what I do?
Thank you,
Czarek

[AutumnW]

One of my brothers recently extricated himself from a cluster B type (cluster of personality disorders) She did such a number on him over the years and he kept most of it to himself. I could see him almost shrinking before my eyes. The gaslighting was phenomenal. His partner loved to fight, for sport. She equated calm and serene with boring. She argued about everything, 24/7 with everybody close to her, except those she was stroking for narcissistic supply.

She did great damage, not just to her marriage with my brother, but, through a love of creating and perpetuating drama, to our entire family. It took a few years before I was onto the fact that it was all a game to her. It's hard to fathom anybody would so crave drama and attention, they would create it in the lives of others.

Most people like a good old no holds barred discussion and will play the devil's advocate for effect, but only on occasion and only about certain topics. This woman would draw you out, play the loving concerned sister-in-law, friend, etc... and then when she had extracted as much deeply hurtful info as possible, would do a 180 degree turnabout, and tell you all your perceptions were wrong, etc...She did this with everybody who got close to her. I thought, at first it must be my problem, that maybe I was all wrong about certain issues.

That's what psychopaths, narcissists and histrionics do. And there is conscious intent there. They are in control of their emotions. As the expression goes, "they are aware but just don't care." The awareness manifests by their ability to alter their behavior to suit the situation.

Borderlines a little different. These people seem not to be able to control the intensity of their emotions and so compassion is in order, very much depending on the individual, because there is variation within that designation.

Former sister in law met one of my good friends a few years back and I sat back and listened in amazement as she loosened my friend's tongue..who she had just met an hour beforehand! She had my friend telling her the most hurtful things that had ever happened to her! And she ladled on the loving concern like maple syrup. I told my friend the pattern and to watch for it if she honed in on her again. She would eventually do a 180 degree turn, tell my friend she was all wrong and imply all of these most hurtful episodes in her life were somehow her fault.

In the past, people would describe people like my sister in law as just 'really awful people.' Now there are classifications and categories for different types of awful. Makes it easier....I think!

[AutumnW]

What do you do if you have kids with BPD mother? Would you try to keep your kids under your care for as much time as you could get or would you leave it to a minimum, i.e. every other weekend time sharing arrangement given that BPD will turn children against me no matter what I do?
Thank you,
Czarek

First make darn sure she actually is borderline. Secondly, is she a good enough mother? Thirdly, your children will figure her out, if that is your main concern. Think about how extremely critical teens are of normal parents.

Unless she is a clear threat to your kids, try to relax and understand that their attitude towards you is not set in stone and that things will work themselves out, the less you do. The more you do, the more harm to yourself and ammunition for the she-beast.

Enjoy your freedom!!

[justntime2learn]

I will start at the end and work towards the beginning ...

My letter to my state reresenative ... Sherrie Sprenger ...

Hello Sherrie,

As my State Representative I am asking for your help in encouraging my ex-wife's attorney Ms. Sharon Griffin, to respond to my attorney Mike Flinn's numerous requests for the court ruling to be enforced. On October 26, Judge Bispham ruled that I am able to send holiday (including last Halloween) and birthday cards to my minor children. I believe our first request for this information from Ms. Griffin was November 4th. As of this dater, and after numerous requests, we have not been given a current mailing address. I used certified mail to mail cards to a previous address Amy had given via an email requesting reimbursement for some medical expenses, it was forwarded to another address (wich happens to be where my private detective found Amy about 2 years ago to serve court papers) and was not picked up and subsequently returned.

Judge Bispham also ruled that my minor children could contact me via text, email and regular mail, and that we could then commumicate if the chldren chose to do so and initiated the contacted. I have received very disturbing texts from an older child that Amy has told the minor children that I am crazy and that the above mentioned communication agreement is a lie....in other words that I am a liar. Is telling a minor chld that their father is crazy and a liar "trashing" that parent, which the Judge also forbid? I also have a copy of a text from an older child saying how excited and estatic Angela, my 16 year old daugher, in particular was to hear this news. Angela planned to contact me, and was prohibited from doing so by Amy. Having just complete 8 weeks or drug rehab, Angela is in a very fragile state of mind, and all of my grown chldren, Angela and myself know how much it would help her to have the contact she wishes.

We have also asked Ms. Griffin for copies of the minor children's birth certificates in order to comply with the original judgment that I supply health insurance when available. The minor chldren are all enrolled in medical, dental and vision, yet I am not able to provide the proper birth certificates required to continue coverage.

I have written a letter to Ms. Juliana M. Picon at the Oregon Department of Justice requesting a mailing address as well as birth certificates.

I am asking for any help you may be able to offer to resolve the total lack of commnicaton from Ms. Griffin. My children continue to suffer and it has deffinately affected their mental health and will continue to do so.

Please help my family Sherrie we are divorcing a narcissist?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201203/help-im-divorcing-narcissist

The link was included in my email

[justntime2learn]

"I embrace my desire to, I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral, to swing on the spiral,
to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human." - Tool

EDlC7oG_2W4

https://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/images/fibonacci-spiral.gif

[Vward]

Unfortunately society in the west is anti social. Be forgiving. The truths love come on label your food.. walk I. Nature please

[Vward]

I need to write and believe me I don't want to. As a child this person was abused the cycle needs breaking. Your strongest power is love do you need us all to hate her? Please remember the reason you made love with her. Can you see the beautiful girl you so desperately accepted. Love not this I must demonstrate passionately like when you made those children.

[happyuk]

I like to see this subject in simple terms. You cannot stop a snake from being a snake.
In spite of how much you look after it, feed it, protect it etc it can and will still turn around and bite you.
Some people are just wired that way, and no amount of intervention will ever amount to making any kind of difference.
I prefer the archaic term for psychopathy - "moral insanity".

Borderline personalities are definitely NOT snakes. They are the end product of terrible and extreme trauma and live in intense fear. Doesn't mean you can fix them though. In that way a simple animal totem works. But how about a dog who has been beaten so badly they can't ever be right in the head?


Yes, of course. The type of personality you are describing is far more prevalent than the type I have described.

These people (the borderline types) are just sad as opposed to quite literally mad (the psychopath).

I see the borderline type as an extreme type of neediness/immaturity that on the surface can look like psychopathy. One such phony role is to play the psychopath. There are many other roles - the bore, the bully, the victim, the saint, the rock of Gibraltar, the corpse, the 24-hour comedian, etc etc.

It does not help that many therapists allow themselves to get sucked in by their means of manipulating the world than allowing them to look to themselves for support. If there is childhood trauma (which most of us have) then become the hurt child, and re-evaluate now that you are bigger, stronger, more experienced and have rights denied to you as a child.

Sometimes the best therapy is confrontational - if he's a pompous ass laugh at him, if an inveterate complainer ignore him, if an intellectual that likes to clobber others with his superior wit then fall asleep; or feign indifference. That way they are forced to invest in themselves.

The trouble with most therapy is that no matter how much the patient appears to "improve" he remains well and truly stuck on the same merry-go-round, seemingly unable to get around the impasse. The "sick point" as the Russians call it. It is my view that most neurotics don't seek to be cured, but just want to be more effective in their neurosis. If you're a whiner, you want more things to complain about; a ridiculer wants a sharper wit / more banter with which to ridicule, and so on.

Just wanted to make that distinction.

[Flash]

Autumn you rock. Your definitions of the different disorders is spot on imo.

Happuyuk i think the neurotic are the easier to cure because they hear the feedbacks even if they protect their over the top skewed sensitivity very tightly.

Psychopaths do not care about feedback unless they can use it for their profit. They have zero empathy but can imitate emotions of empathy quite well. In fact they do not emote much except for thrill feelings that makes them feel alive.

The difference between psychopaths and narcissists is the fear factor only. Narcissist do have a minimal amount of fear, psychopaths have none. Pervert narcissists will destroy those around them while regular ones will just go away to other targets if you do not fulfill their Needs.

BPD will destroy those around them, like the pervert narcissist, but there is a high emotional component to them. Because they are unhappy, they do seek help and can be helped, but it is a cruel and difficult path, for them and for the helper.

Neurosis is in another category altogether and can be helped.

[Vward]

I feel so sad have you heard yourself look in the mirror

[Flash]

There is likely a wonderful person in there that you can only glimpse or never meet at all.

Truth. Thank you, Whiskey.

On a more personal note, I would like to explain that my mother has these kinds of issues, as well as my ex husband. So when I speak on the topic, I speak from very personal, hands-on experience over many years of dealing with these things face to face. I realized I should have made that clear - I am not airy fairy hypothetical about it. I am living it.

Yes, I think most of us on this thread speak from personal experience. In my own life, i have had to deal with everyone of these categories of people, one being the father of my daughter

For those with children, I must say that I try to protect them from those mentally sidetracked people as much as possible, trying to have the child avoid contact, if at all possible. If not, I will listen to the child complaints or remarks, because a child suffers much with them around. And I will acknowledge their suffering while mentioning that they see very clearly the mentally imbalanced person, otherwise the child thinks he is to blame for the mentally strabge adult behavior.

[Flash]

I feel so sad have you heard yourself look in the mirror

Who are you adressing those words to??

[Vward]

Thanks brother your pain may be internal. Reply love I feel the word's

[Vward]

Can you imagine the bliss of forgiveness the joy of love walk in peace try the cheek turn you are loved label food

[Flash]

Thanks brother your pain may be internal. Reply love I feel the word's

Again, who are you answering to?

I have learned something through life: usually when people give such comments as above, they are talking about themselves. Do you have internal pain?

[Vward]

Definitely but again I ask you do you?
I feel terrible like maybe I could friend lets reason

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Sorry I am trying

[Vward]

How could you help me if I have this disorder?

[Flash]

Definitely but again I ask you do you?
I feel terrible like maybe I could friend lets reason

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Sorry I am trying


In fact, I feel truly good these days, haven't felt so good in years. And my heart is full.

The descriptions I was giving in earlier posts are based on previous experiences mainly. Most have been processed including the pain that was involved. I have compassion for people with BPD, narcissism, neurosis, because of the pain they hold and inflict, and because of the wonderful beauty of life they are missing. However, having learned, I keep away from them. And try to protect the children when I can.

I am sorry for your dog.

I must add that I have a hard time understanding your written English. I may misunderstand you at times because of this.

[Vward]

My English is bad because of this kindle. Anyways I going through my pain and believe in love I needed your message I am struggling .

[Flash]

How could you help me if I have this disorder?

I cannot help you on a forum or even in person. The only thing I can tell you is to get a really good therapist who knows about what you have. I have known people (2) with BPD and both had successful treatments involving beliefs changes and behavior modifications. I also have seen neurotic people cured.

I have never seen narcissists change in any fundamental way, and have never seen psychopaths even trying to change, forget seeking help.

Nobody can help you on the web, you have to seek treatments locally in my views. Except for us sending you love, if it helps.

[Innocent Warrior]

Vward, take care with your words. Guilt is a huge issue for people who have been in relationships of this nature.

This is a wonderful thread, let's keep it that way. Much love to you.

Edit: I just read your post about you having this condition, my apologies for any offence. You're posts are understandable, this must be difficult for you to read.

[Vward]

I do have this it was diagnosed
I was abused at eight sexually
I am sorry

[Innocent Warrior]

I'm so sorry, Vward. You're a courageous soul to choose this path for this life. Many of us understand your pain, truly.

[Vward]

I just want you to see the other side. Forgiveness please tell them how you.feel. walk away if you have to. Protect the children. I understand I am a surviver my friend was disabled my guilt is with her I didn't fight for her. There is storm here. Here name was Sarah

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I do have this it was diagnosed
I was abused at eight sexually
I am sorry

Hello Vward.

I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering. What I want you to know is that it is possible for you to feel "normal" and to enjoy the joys of life, know who you are, and be capable of self-regulation.

What others are saying is correct. The only way through this is with a skilled therapist who is willing to make the journey with you. Many won't because it is arduous. You may have to shop around to find the right person to help you. But, if you do it, you will have accomplished something with this life that few can match. You can be a champion.

Know that there is hope. I wish you the best of luck and blessings. You are worthy of love.

[justntime2learn]

What if ?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89904-Psychic-Vampires-Psychic-Donors-Psychic-Healers-Psychic-Poisoners&highlight=poison

[sdv]

Someone in my family has BPD (caused by trauma and abuse in early childhood). She did see a therapist who taught her how to manage the disorder (and understand it). She was also given a lot of drugs by a psychiatrist. The condition did not improve. At last she found her way to a psychiatrist (also an academic at the university where she was studying) who is an expert in BPD. He told her to throw away all the meds, and then prescribed only one medication, for her to take when she felt the need - anti-anxiety medication. In her case, the anxiety would cause a trip to switch and she would have a meltdown (very scary to witness and very destructive!). She now very rarely uses the anti-anxiety medication and is doing very well. She graduated and has a job that takes her away from the toxic home environment, but also has built up her self-esteem.

Everyone is different, but in her case, she is now a normal and happy person through understanding and managing her condition, using medication to get the anxiety under control, removing herself from an abusive home, and finding a place in life where she can succeed, be affirmed and be happy. A cocktail of mind-altering psychiatric medication was no help at all, and trying to address the abuse was not either.

Warm hugs to all who struggle with BPD, and especially those who have not found the help and support they need.

[justntime2learn]

Could bloodlines have been genetically tweaked to produce an abundance of psychopaths serving the alien agenda?

What are your thoughts ?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89776-Alien-Origins-Of-Sociopathy&highlight=Alien%2C+Origins

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_ponerology14.htm

[justntime2learn]

Have you ever noticed that a person with a neurosis will accuse you of what they're guilty of? This is called projection and is in the DSM-5 manual. Someone that can't reconcile their own inadequacies will project them on to others.
Don't be fooled!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/de/be/2c/debe2c7c747c33d2d2311ac1ba8fb4a7.jpg

https://psychopathresistance.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/falseaccusations3.jpg?w=409&h=540