Jesse Ventura - Pentagon.

[Teakai]

Here's the Jesse Ventura conspiracy theory Pentagon episode for anyone interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ14NRbT-s

Have just started watching it myself.
Both Jesse and Alex Jones seem surprised that it got to air - so watch it while you can in case you tube try to remove it.

[onawah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLhK0HeU6Qhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLhK0HeU6Q

Ventura is THE MAN on TV!!
(I hope this wasn't posted already.)

[irishspirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vyBYmv3bwY&feature=player_embedded

[jimmer]

I watched it.
As fun and provocative as this show is, it's content and findings
are many times a stretch and a real leap (not supported by hard facts/evidence).
As a rebuttal to the show's Pentagon findings that 'this couldn't happen, that couldn't happen,' read this investigation into the on-the-ground facts:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

it's years old, but hard facts don't shift over time.
teaser: over 60 airline passenger bodies were retrieved and returned to their families...

[Eligos]

Two things to consider:
No holes where the alleged engines impacted the Pentagon wall
As stated by numerous pilots, physically impossible to maneuver the plane at such an angle of descent.

[Satori]

Jimmer:
You've been duped if you believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Respectfully.

[Carmody]

I watched it.
As fun and provocative as this show is, it's content and findings
are many times a stretch and a real leap (not supported by hard facts/evidence).
As a rebuttal to the show's Pentagon findings that 'this couldn't happen, that couldn't happen,' read this investigation into the on-the-ground facts:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

it's years old, but hard facts don't shift over time.
teaser: over 60 airline passenger bodies were retrieved and returned to their families...

As well, we don't have any real evidence of 60 bodies being returned. We have a statement that 60 bodies have been returned. That's it. Nothing more.

As well, virtually nothing of the plane remained. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that anything above a mushy paste/stain of any human being survived any pentagon impact. DNA swabbing of the odd meatish/bone bit is about the only option there. Returning bodies would be impossible, in my estimation, if indeed a 747 sized plane hit the pentagon.

Recall or know for the first time that the people in the Pentagon who died, were..for the most part..the independent accounting team that was brought in to find and account for the missing $2.2 Trillion that Donald Rumsfeld had admitted (at a special news conference) the loss and loss of tracking on..the day before, on Sept 10, 2001. Standing behind him (and I believe he took the microphone as well) was the Comptroller (who was responsible for the money and the allocation) of the Pentagon, an Ordained Rabbi and dual citizen of the US and Isreal.. Dov Zakheim.

"During the 2000 U.S. Presidential election campaign, Zakheim served as a foreign policy advisor to George W. Bush as part of a group led by Condoleezza Rice that called itself The Vulcans."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_S._Zakheim

(Yo, just so you know, the Vulcans were the so-called 'original gods'. In the modern context, these would be the Pagan Gods.)

Missing $2.2 trillion, hmmm? How does one loose track of $2.2 Trillion?

And the untraceable plane....just happens to kill the accounting team and destroy all the records.

Fancy that.

[Arpheus]

Show me the bodies and then i may consider that there were actually any bodies?The pentagon is the most blatant of many of the lies we have been told about that dreadful day.

[Carmody]

The pentagon strike bears all the marks of being a hastily erected and carried out plan, one that may have been put into action at the last minute as this thing at the Twin towers took place. As if the white house crew acted on the situation that they had planned out, that had multiple situations and conditions going on all simultaneously. Don't for get the what was it, 11-13 floors of sub-basement that had, over the years, turned into a gold holding secure facility, and how many $billions in bullion were down there? etc. The heavy trucks found in the tower tunnels, and one (or was it a few?) gold bar found in one empty truck. Ie, the gold left the night before.

And the Pentagon crew or faction watched this whole thing going on, and their hands being fully tied as their situation (involvement and forces) was being run by Cheney from the war room at the white house. So they get a plane up in the air and take care of the accounting situation.

According to the timing of the three impacts, this scenario is entirely possible.

[onawah]

Ventura was only able to scratch the surface of all the evidence of a 911 conspiracy, but it was amazing that he got that much on TV in the US at all. Let's hope it has an impact and gets the ball rolling for a 911 disclosure That would be a great step...

[jimmer]

"The remains of every flight 77 victim but one (a two-year-old) was recovered
and positively identified by forensics experts. Personal effects of many survived
the crash and fires and were returned to the victims' families."

here's the link to the forensic, documented evidence summary
of the pentagon flight 77 incident. let your computer read this to you.
it's as detailed as a 'summary' should be. lots of eyewitnesses, lots of aftermath
details that just won't be there if this was a set-up.

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary

you can say they are lying, but this kind of summary is factually documented.
what hard documentation do the truthers have to back-up their theories?
and I don't mean experts saying things can't happen. I mean, what factual,
on-the-ground hard evidence is there that it was a missile, etc.?

be sure to review page 2 of this report. included the serpentine flight path diagram that
indicates that a missile could not have caused all the peripheral (light pole, vehicle) damage.

and lastly, check out these extremely low fly-bys of full size passenger airlines.
it's crazy, possible to do and the music is pretty good, too.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2787482791697822411&hl=en#

[Carmody]

you can say they are lying, but this kind of summary is factually documented.
what hard documentation do the truthers have to back-up their theories?
and I don't mean experts saying things can't happen. I mean, what factual,
on-the-ground hard evidence is there that it was a missile, etc.?

Yet they cannot show us one credible image of a plane, and image of a flight or a single component that resembles that of a full size liner, in any credible way.

This tends to put lie to the idea that we have the forensics of 'flight 77', in hand.


it's not an impasse either, not a 'tie', either. No.

The level of fraud going on in the entire package, the circumstantial evidence surrounding every leading situation, that led into that day, all that happened that day and all that happened afterward. Well, all of that makes it impossible for a reasoning person to do nothing but do their best to find the lie behind the forensic reports. For if that is their sole piece of 'decent' evidence for that day, then they have nothing.

We are talking about the loss of the understanding of the"location, history, and the use" of older and higher valued dollars than now, by a great percentage..an amount of approximately $2,200,000,000,000.00 .....and the money..the money..is the smaller part of it, by a huge margin. It is only an evidence trail that leads to something far more potent. A forenseic report that would take, at most a few million $ at most, to put together and put in place. In the face of something that makes the missing 2.2 trillion dollars look like a joke. How far would they go? Far, far further than you have seen, so far.

What they DO have is a forensics report that will work well enough, well enough for convincing those who are afraid of the conclusions -if it is shown to be a fabrication. THOSE people will do their best to believe in that piece of evidence as they can't psychologically -or- emotionally face the ramifications of the report being a fabrication.

This is the history of false flag attacks, and that sort of thing has been going on for millennia.

In essence, you don't have hard evidence, you have something in your hand that goes against the entire trail of evidence and circumstance that surround: the set up conditions, the occurrences of that day, and everything that happened afterward. I'm not talking about the pentagon alone here, I'm talking about the entire package of that day and all that surrounds it.

The final point is that this is a war. A war of psychology. A goebbellian propaganda war of massaging and engaging human psychology in a manner that makes this hastily erected and poorly enacted scenario hold enough water to maintain the illusion of truth -for the group of people that desire to maintain an illusion of truth in their lives. To maintain that lie so they can live in comfort. This is psychology 101 class, good sir.

It is just that you don't seem to be mentally understanding that point. The guilty people involved have erected enough doubt in the situation so that the target group for the propaganda can very shakily settle down into those points of doubt and try again to live in the comfort of what they currently know and understand. To avoid the painful face of the truth. Like someone suspecting their partner is cheating or no-longer wants them in their lives anymore, they can go on believing a lie so they don't have to face a truth that cuts to the core of their being and reshapes them in way that is far more potent than any difficult personal relationship ever would.

We know the extremes that people would, will and -do- go through in order to hold onto a lie of personal relationship. Lies that are entirely obvious to anyone outside of that relationship. In the same way, those outside of the lie of that day, when it comes to believing it, those outside can easily see the shape and the fabrication that holds the bulk of humanity to the lie. And in the same way, we cannot easily convince or show the person who believes the lie...what the true face of it actually is. They literally, like the person in the bad relationship, they refuse to look at it.... as the truth seems far too painful for them. Their powers of reason can speak the words and even think them but they cannot believe them. They are hanging onto the shred of doubt, the shred of evidence that speaks the opposite...and allows them to cling to their desires.

Their desire to hold their illusion, an illusion that holds back a pain. A pain of disillusion that threatens all they know and breathe, right to the core. You can get someone to believe and even say their partner does not want them anymore, and even then, have them take years more to walk away or disengage. This pain, of this situation, this huge lie - held by such flimsy and weak evidence...this difficulty... is and will be MUCH deeper than that, as this situation surrounding that day in September.. encompasses everything their entire lives are based on. The street they walk down, who paved it the design of the streetlights, their education and upbringing, the food they eat, everything they understand is at risk in their chain of existence.People will cling to anything in the face of that. Psychology 101, friend. Either consciously or unconsciously, most who deny know this truth, which is why their mind rejects it harder than a person who crying and hanging onto a warm corpse. They grieve for themselves and their world, for they see the shape of the pain the truth will bring them, and it horrifies them into a lie..as a form of self protection of the ego and their 'lives'.

So the evidence you proffer is a canard. A red herring. Designed to convince those who desire on the deepest level possible to have doubts raised and to be convinced. People who don't really understand what 'psychology 101' means in the context of this discussion. That being the bulk of humanity, which is the target group of this entire pile of propaganda.

Some may look at my post and say, "what does that mean?"....and all I can say in return is, "My Point Exactly".

I'm done with this discussion, I've said my piece. I'll not get lost further, wasting more of my time in such dead ends.

[Dale]

I won't start in on another circular 9/11 debate, here; though I do find them intellectually sharpening.

The bottom line, concerning the events of 9/11, is something I feel we all can agree on. Fraud beneath consecutive layers of fraud, and a big push to further "someone(s)" game.

[iceni tribe]

hi jimmer

your mention of the lamposts is a interesting one , have you not seen the film .... national security alert by the citizens investigation team.

if not then may i suggest you take a peek , because you will see and hear the taxi driver ( loyde ) say on camera that it was planned he was involved in something bigger than him ,this is their thing .
kinda from the horse's mouth so to speak .

[jimmer]

sorry you're fed up. so am I for totally different reasons.
there is lots of evidence of an airliner impact.
if it was an airliner, then all the conspiracy theories as to the pentagon tragedy are moot.

believe what you will, but the truth wins the day.

[Carmody]

Your problem comes when the photographic evidence that is taken directly at the crash site, for that day, shows the parts for a known drone plane design and nothing that comes from any known airliner. A missile close range fired into pentagon wall, kills the accounting team and the evidence...and the drone plane follows the missile in. That is what the direct independent photographic site evidence is known to indicate. Anything beyond that is circumstantial and open to fabrication.

[3optic]

I hope you both stick it out. I for one am getting a lot out of this exchange. My own view parallels Carmody's but I am interested in jimmer's posts. Jimmer, it might be helpful if you touched on the building 7 debacle at some point. Joseph Lieberman recently denied it even happened. Also the total investigation budget was 15 mil which according to him "dug up everything" and yet made no mention of the 3rd Trade Center building.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

"The remains of every flight 77 victim but one (a two-year-old) was recovered
and positively identified by forensics experts. Personal effects of many survived
the crash and fires and were returned to the victims' families."

here's the link to the forensic, documented evidence summary
of the pentagon flight 77 incident. let your computer read this to you.
it's as detailed as a 'summary' should be. lots of eyewitnesses, lots of aftermath
details that just won't be there if this was a set-up.

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary

you can say they are lying, but this kind of summary is factually documented.
what hard documentation do the truthers have to back-up their theories?
and I don't mean experts saying things can't happen. I mean, what factual,
on-the-ground hard evidence is there that it was a missile, etc.?

be sure to review page 2 of this report. included the serpentine flight path diagram that
indicates that a missile could not have caused all the peripheral (light pole, vehicle) damage.

and lastly, check out these extremely low fly-bys of full size passenger airlines.
it's crazy, possible to do and the music is pretty good, too.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2787482791697822411&hl=en#

So 'they' say, still not one ounce of proof they came from the Pentagon. Look guys, we will be going around in circles chasing our tails, we ALL know its impossible for a complete learner to pilot a 757 in the way officials state, then, leave one single 16ft hole rather than the expected normal engine punches. Lets use common sense and logic here, NOPLANE HIT THE PENTAGON. Very experienced pilots could not do so and they have publicly stated such, a complete beginner whom could not handle a small cessna properly would have no chance. Do not be fooled by officials with their complete nonsense, its same with the Shanksville 'crash', it simply did not happen as we are told by those scumbags whom lie at every turn.

[truthseekerdan]

sorry you're fed up. so am I for totally different reasons.
there is lots of evidence of an airliner impact.
if it was an airliner, then all the conspiracy theories as to the pentagon tragedy are moot.

believe what you will, but the truth wins the day.

The truth is that an airliner did not hit the pentagon -- as simple as that...

[SPIRIT WOLF]

sorry you're fed up. so am I for totally different reasons.
there is lots of evidence of an airliner impact.
if it was an airliner, then all the conspiracy theories as to the pentagon tragedy are moot.

believe what you will, but the truth wins the day.

Truth does win the day and the truth demonstrated endlessly is that NO wreckage of any discernable size was found, not the silly little planted for media photo pieces but the two massive engines for example, they would have been obvious. Photographers on the scene within minutes saw NO wreckage whatsoever. Also witnesses inside the building saw no such wreckage, one in particular actually came out of the building thru the hole, and she saw NOTHING. What makes you tick? Very interested in why you accept the party line when ALL evidence is against you?

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Let them prove an aircraft hit the pentagon and release the tapes from all the cameras, the Pentagon itself is lined with them along the building itself, PLUS there are inner and outer ring security cams, strange how all these are now held secret within the catch-all national security umbrella. An easy and quick way to end the debate, SHOW US THE FILMS

[jimmer]

The truth is that an airliner did not hit the pentagon -- as simple as that...

from what I'm getting, no one has reviewed the 'crash site summary.'
if you have not, then do it. just do it. do it now.
and be nice, be civil, even though the 'truth' may hurt.

once you've eliminated solid evidence that doesn't support your tribe beliefs,
you are not seeking the truth. you are perpetuating a myth.

[3optic]

from what I'm getting, no one has reviewed the 'crash site summary.'
if you have not, then do it. just do it. do it now.
and be nice, be civil, even though the 'truth' may hurt.

once you've eliminated solid evidence that doesn't support your tribe beliefs,
you are not seeking the truth. you are perpetuating a myth.

What can be solid about a 'crash site summary', jimmer? I'm reading and it appears to be printed text on a page. I will read on..

[Carmody]

Jimmer, what it really comes down to is that you need to get over yourself and get over the lie you've told yourself in order to protect your world.

You need to do it as it's dragging the rest of us down, and killing us and everything you value - including you.

[Hiram]

You don't examine evidence with an attachment to a specific outcome....not if you have a hope of perceiving things correctly. As most of you have now pointed out, the debate about this HAS GONE FAR BEYOND EVIDENCE NOW.

At a certain point it becomes MORE OF PSYCHOLOGICAL STRETCH TO KEEP PERPETUATING THE SAME MYTH. And what does that government-spewed filth say about the highly intelligent and reasoning people who have posted on this thread?

I KNOW some of these people and have read thousands of posts by them and I know they are brilliant, they have discerning minds, I KNOW they are not just interested in the truth...

They are ferocious for it.

I know my mind and I know what sounds reasonable and what sounds implausible....When hundreds of professional airline pilots say there is no way they themselves could have flown the hypothetical flt. 77 flight path.....well gosh darn, REASON tells me to believe them.

When my government gives me some implausible cockamamie BS and tells me to believe it, because they have "documents" to prove their case....my REASON tells me this is LIE.

THey've lied in the past. They've lied thousands and thousands of times to us. And someone asks me to believe them?? In this case...this one case right here, they're like boy-scouts and we should trust that they would never mislead us! Wave that flag!!

The notion is patently absurd....and its insulting to the highly intelligent people on this board.

I'm sorry for getting worked up...but like many of you I am tired of the foolish debate.

[truthseekerdan]

from what I'm getting, no one has reviewed the 'crash site summary.'
if you have not, then do it. just do it. do it now.
and be nice, be civil, even though the 'truth' may hurt.

once you've eliminated solid evidence that doesn't support your tribe beliefs,
you are not seeking the truth. you are perpetuating a myth.

Jimmer, with all due respect if you look outside for the truth, you are just assuming that the obvious is true. This is never the case -- not in the world we live in today...

If you take the time to look within your heart with sincerity, you'll find more about the Truth than just having a 'formed' opinion. Thank you for the opportunity to share my perspective on this. :love: ~ Dan

"The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it." - Ayn Rand

[grannyfranny100]

Hi Spirit Wolf

So many people don't want to believe that our government/ shadow government will lie. How gullible we are. Since we are just the dumbed down minds of slaves, they don't even bother to make up believable lies. I am so sick of it. And don't forget, we have the best Congress money can buy. It's so disgusting.

Granny Franny

[3optic]

Jimmer, what it really comes down to is that you need to get over yourself and get over the lie you've told yourself in order to protect your world.

You need to do it as it's dragging the rest of us down, and killing us and everything you value - including you.

Carmody I don't feel I'm being dragged down. I also don't feel Jimmer's opinion is akin to mass murder. I enjoyed your early posts on this topic because it's helpful for me to hear/read debate on this for "sharpening" (thanks Dale) . Some perspective is required here. I agree with your take on events but it serves no one when we use this kind of rhetoric.

take care,
3optic

[Zook]

Hi 3optic,


Carmody I don't feel I'm being dragged down. I also don't feel Jimmer's opinion is akin to mass murder. I enjoyed your early posts on this topic because it's helpful for me to hear/read debate on this for "sharpening" (thanks Dale) . Some perspective is required here. I agree with your take on events but it serves no one when we use this kind of rhetoric.
take care,
3optic

I beg to disagree. Exposing that ignorance which directly harms the truth (e.g. by delaying it) ... serves the truth.

Carmody is only stating what needs to be said. The truth is not always a soft pillow to rest one's head on.

IMHO, OC.

:typing:

[jimmer]

if any of you think that I'm a lap dog for big gov't you don't know what you're talking about.
it just kills me that so many intelligent people can ride a destructive band wagon like this.
look at the global warming-cum-climate change scare.
today it's clearly the sun activity that's driving the global temps and atmospherics,
but over the years, highly intelligent, deeply educated people have fallen for this
maniacal distributive scheme hatched by UN elitists.

back to the pentagon.
I do appreciate how easy it is to see conspiracies.
How easy it is to see shadowy figures everywhere.
But in the case of the pentagon crash, hundreds/thousdands of people have been part
of the event's documentation. Some from the gov't, some independents, with hard,detailed evidence
of a hijacked flight 77 that devastated the structure and killed all those innocent people.
There is no physical,hard evidence that it was a missile. Only conspiracy theories and
thuggish behavior to those who disagree.

As I thinking, breathing human being, I refuse to accept this conspiracy theory
without proof.

call me an army of one. there are millions of us.
now, let's talk about something else.
try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPczz5yhVNM&feature=related

[3optic]

Hi 3optic,



I beg to disagree. Exposing that ignorance which directly harms the truth (e.g. by delaying it) ... serves the truth.

Carmody is only stating what needs to be said. The truth is not always a soft pillow to rest one's head on.

IMHO, OC.

:typing:

Be that as it may I feel we venture into dangerous territory when we recuse those with differing opinions. It's possible to refute his points on facts alone and not defame the man. There are many otherwise intelligent people who share his opinion. It will not help your cause to personalize this discussion and use overwrought accusatory language. Bring him around gently ;)

[SPIRIT WOLF]

if any of you think that I'm a lap dog for big gov't you don't know what you're talking about.
it just kills me that so many intelligent people can ride a destructive band wagon like this.
look at the global warming-cum-climate change scare.
today it's clearly the sun activity that's driving the global temps and atmospherics,
but over the years, highly intelligent, deeply educated people have fallen for this
maniacal distributive scheme hatched by UN elitists.

back to the pentagon.
I do appreciate how easy it is to see conspiracies.
How easy it is to see shadowy figures everywhere.
But in the case of the pentagon crash, hundreds/thousdands of people have been part
of the event's documentation. Some from the gov't, some independents, with hard,detailed evidence
of a hijacked flight 77 that devastated the structure and killed all those innocent people.
There is no physical,hard evidence that it was a missile. Only conspiracy theories and
thuggish behavior to those who disagree.

As I thinking, breathing human being, I refuse to accept this conspiracy theory
without proof.

call me an army of one. there are millions of us.
now, let's talk about something else.
try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPczz5yhVNM&feature=related

As you have not ONE iota of evidence to support your narrow visioned opinions other than those stated by those that were implicit in the September 11th events. Here you are the one under a conspiracy spell, not the rest of us open minded rational sensible individuals. The US Gov worked a big con job and you fell for it, thats ok, you seem happy in your little bubble of unawareness so we will let you continue in your cotton wool covered sanctuary. We truthers have a mountain of evidence to contradict the official story and we continue to try to open the eyes of those, like yourself whom are blinded by Gov lies. I fear however you might be a lost cause.

[3optic]

if any of you think that I'm a lap dog for big gov't you don't know what you're talking about.
it just kills me that so many intelligent people can ride a destructive band wagon like this.
look at the global warming-cum-climate change scare.
today it's clearly the sun activity that's driving the global temps and atmospherics,
but over the years, highly intelligent, deeply educated people have fallen for this
maniacal distributive scheme hatched by UN elitists.

back to the pentagon.
I do appreciate how easy it is to see conspiracies.
How easy it is to see shadowy figures everywhere.
But in the case of the pentagon crash, hundreds/thousdands of people have been part
of the event's documentation. Some from the gov't, some independents, with hard,detailed evidence
of a hijacked flight 77 that devastated the structure and killed all those innocent people.
There is no physical,hard evidence that it was a missile. Only conspiracy theories and
thuggish behavior to those who disagree.

As I thinking, breathing human being, I refuse to accept this conspiracy theory
without proof.

call me an army of one. there are millions of us.
now, let's talk about something else.
try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPczz5yhVNM&feature=related

Theories aside, the official story simply doesn't hold up to any of the evidence I have seen. Still would love for you to reply to the question I posited to you about building #7.

[onawah]

if any of you think that I'm a lap dog for big gov't you don't know what you're talking about.
it just kills me that so many intelligent people can ride a destructive band wagon like this.
look at the global warming-cum-climate change scare.
today it's clearly the sun activity that's driving the global temps and atmospherics,
but over the years, highly intelligent, deeply educated people have fallen for this
maniacal distributive scheme hatched by UN elitists.

back to the pentagon.
I do appreciate how easy it is to see conspiracies.
How easy it is to see shadowy figures everywhere.
But in the case of the pentagon crash, hundreds/thousdands of people have been part
of the event's documentation. Some from the gov't, some independents, with hard,detailed evidence
of a hijacked flight 77 that devastated the structure and killed all those innocent people.
There is no physical,hard evidence that it was a missile. Only conspiracy theories and
thuggish behavior to those who disagree.

As I thinking, breathing human being, I refuse to accept this conspiracy theory
without proof.

call me an army of one. there are millions of us.
now, let's talk about something else.
try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPczz5yhVNM&feature=related

So Jimmer, why are you even on the Project Avalon forum? It should be clear to you by now that this is a forum for people who think OUTSIDE the box. Are you hoping to convert us to your views? I think I can safely say that most of us here have been there, done that, and are not going back to unquestioning acceptance of what the gov wants us to believe.
If conversion to the "party line" here is your goal, you should know it is a lost cause and a waste of time.

[Cate]

msg deleted

[NoTingles]

msg. deleted

[jimmer]

So Jimmer, why are you even on the Project Avalon forum?

I'm surprised, onawah, that someone of your maturity would ask such a vacant question.
of course there is a world of mysteries to pursue.
this discussion is only one of them: what happened at the pentagon?
capisca?
as far a trying to convert anyone, I am not.
it's about dialogue/information/discovery, not kool-aid.

[onawah]

And I am surprised that anyone on this forum would have so little insight into what actually happened at the Pentagon.

[Hiram]

High Jimmer,

I appreciate a dissenting opinion as much as the next person but I think someone makes a good point about "out-of the box" thinking above.

No matter what evidence you present, you can't escape the fact that you have aligned yourself with Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney on this issue. They too espouse that flt 77 indeed crashed into the pentagon. Your opinion aligns with theirs as you espouse that point.

I don't really think this comes down to evidence, I think the 800lb gorilla in the room is "judgment".

You fail to address and justify how your opinion could possibly align with the despicable individuals I just mentioned above. Does that not bother you one iota? Does that not give you pause?

[jimmer]

ok, ok, I'm bending to your will, ah, ah, I see the light, it was, I was a, a...
plane. sorry, but the facts I've read (and I've read and viewed everything)
still support that flight 77 slammed into the pentagon. lots a plane debris on the ground, etc.

woo, that was close. but please go on and believe anything that strikes your fancy.

[Hiram]

ok, ok, I'm bending to your will, ah, ah, I see the light, it was, I was a, a...
plane. sorry, but the facts I've read (and I've read and viewed everything)
still support that flight 77 slammed into the pentagon. lots a plane debris on the ground, etc.

woo, that was close. but please go on and believe anything that strikes your fancy.

I think its a legitimate question...have you considered that you are espousing the same position as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld?

Perhaps you don't really care and that is not an issue for you. If that is the case you can let us know. I think its a fair position. I just want everyone to be clear here. No mocking tone is required.

[AlkaMyst]

I have posted sometime ago all the episode of both season 1 & 2 of "Conspiracy Theory" on my blog (https://www.theavalonfiles.com/blog/?p=85) for easier viewing if anyone is interested!!!

[kouby]

I don't mean to be nasty, but if someone still believes a commercial airliner hit the pentagon, you reaaally need to switch off the TV for a minute. Get back to studying older false-flag cases and check up the similarities, then cross-check the money issue which is just so effing blatant here, check out the data storage and asset storage in WTC 1,2 & 7 and just connect the dots.

This was not only to go to war and boost the economy and instigate fear into everyone, it was, probably mainly, to cover-up all the recent ****-ups of the Cheney clan and get everyone looking at something else than all the missing money.

"Follow the money" is not the best known investigative tip for nothing, in 99% of cases you don't even have to look anywhere else. Cui bono. It's blatant here, and no need for a philosophical degree to see that if you're buying the story of the guy who benefits, you might as well just stop now and go back to watching dancing with the stars.

[3optic]

sorry, but the facts I've read (and I've read and viewed everything)
still support that flight 77 slammed into the pentagon. lots a plane debris on the ground, etc.


"Facts you've read? You've "read and viewed everything?" These assertions are specious, Jimmer. I like to read religious pamphlets for fun sometimes.

[Axman]

Its true they did find a jet engine but not from that type of plane.
What how did that happen oh yea thats right they check the plans before every flight they must have changed it to a diff. type they do it all the time.
NOT :smash:

[Eligos]

Well Jimmer, after all those responses, you are still clinging to the official story/theory? Cant you put 2 and 2 together and extrapolate? Where are the two damn holes from the engines? Face the facts, they are missing. If the engine holes are missing it because THEY WHERE NEVER THERE. End of story. No matter what comes after that is pointless.
How I would love to be in your bubble. Alas, once awake there is no turning back I'm afraid.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

I think its a legitimate question...have you considered that you are espousing the same position as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld?

Perhaps you don't really care and that is not an issue for you. If that is the case you can let us know. I think its a fair position. I just want everyone to be clear here. No mocking tone is required.

Allow me to mock, jimmer, your head is so far up your ass you are breathing out farts, you are plainly a lost cause, or should that be plane-ly LOL

[jimmer]

anyone who names himself 'spirt wolf' shouldn't mock anyone, for any reason. :p

[Axman]

Wow sticks and stones
Ok Ok it was a plane it just did not look like one hows that feel better.

LOL

[SPIRIT WOLF]

anyone who names himself 'spirt wolf' shouldn't mock anyone, for any reason. :p

ROFL ROFL ROFL..............is that the best retort you can manage?

[Eligos]

The two engines in the Pentagon is analogous to the twin towers collapsing in less than 10 sec. Just with that, you have a clear picture of the truth.
The more fluoride people drink, the more they will deny obvious physical manifestations right smack in front of them. They just don't believe there eyes.
We have indeed come a long way, down a one way street.

[Ross]

Lets keep things respectful and refrain from name calling...please

Jimmer, what are your views regarding the twin towers and building 7? this happened on the same day, by the same group of terrorists...officially.

Ross

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Didn't anyone see the hint at humour in my post? Besides when its PLAINLY obvious no plane hit the damn building and someone keeps rattling on and on and on that they think it did, well, it just MIGHT pee off a few of us, my patience is limited.

[Kari Lynn]

I just read this whole thing, and I can't believe that after 10 years, it's still about whether or not a plane hit the pentagon. Shouldn't this be about the PEOPLE! Aren't the people who died important enough to try and figure out what happened to them?

If it wasn't a plane fine,
Then just tell me what really did happen to flight 77 and where did all the people go?

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Of course BUT its also important to root out and expose the lies, as for the passengers of 4 alleged hijacked planes, let me see, the controllers are nasty vicious bastards so giving them new identities and resettling them elsewhere would not be an option. Someone having a conscience might come forward and spoil things, so guess what they did? Thats right, they killed them, and kept the DNA in order to substantiate the official story and have 'proof' via the DNA samples that all 4 planes passengers were killed by nasty horrible terrorists.

[jimmer]

unlike some, I'm not snarky by nature.
but when a fellow PA gets personally pissy, the respect wains. ruff, ruff.

as for the towers and building 7, frankly, not sure.
but from everything I've viewed and read, to think that a hologram, haarp,
some unknown trick of the eye caused it. that doesn't wash for me.
I live near where the 'pilots' trained and it's an embarrassment that lingers.
I've read lots about the physics of the towers collapse / 'powder' effect and
that's very interesting to me, but still, something this massive, on such a grand scale with so many witnesses can't be explained using scifi.
so to me, there are uncommon side effects that happen when the uncommon happens. that's what I think.

my focus has been on the pentagon and those lost souls.
it's part of the bigger story that can be more easily dissected and studied.

so, to you it may always be a missile.
to me, until irrefutable new proof, it was flight 77, carrying one of my favorite authors.
and please don't accuse me of holding back progress towards a new 911 commission.
free thinkers should be welcomed at PA.
circumstantial evidence won't wash will something so big.
so please, find an insider, whistle blower who will spill the beans.
but until then, this whole thing will only sour your lives.

and of course, I say all of this with respect and good will to all PAers.

[Kari Lynn]

Okay, then based on where the plane took off from, WHERE did TPB land that plane that would allow for NO witnesses to see them remove and kill the passengers, let alone see a huge plane?
If you can find out where ELSE that plane would have landed, there you'd likely find the DNA, remains, etc... that would place the victims in another location. Wouldn't it be a little easier to prove where the plane was, than were the plane was not?

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Perhaps we are getting into areas a wee bit too hot for this open forum with no checks on whom watches. 4 planes in all, 4 sets of passengers, thus allegedly 4 sets of DNA samples kept by the officials. Lets for one moment cool down this topic as I'd hate to see it stopped, and say the 2 sites that cause more conflict re plausibility, Pentagon and Shanksville, 2 sites, 2 planes, or rather NO planes, no debris, no bodies, nothing at either. Even forensics stated not a single drop of blood found at Shanksville, yet 'they' had all the passengers DNA. Hmmm, quite simply the crash was elsewhere, more likely, as we are keeping this COOL, it was diverted and passengers removed, you know their fate. I'm known for speaking too much and you know Kari what has happened to me before now by talking too much. So lets just cruise past this point and get back to jimmers fav pastime, accepting a blooming great jet hit the Pentagon.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

unlike some, I'm not snarky by nature.
but when a fellow PA gets personally pissy, the respect wains. ruff, ruff.

as for the towers and building 7, frankly, not sure.
but from everything I've viewed and read, to think that a hologram, haarp,
some unknown trick of the eye caused it. that doesn't wash for me.
I live near where the 'pilots' trained and it's an embarrassment that lingers.
I've read lots about the physics of the towers collapse / 'powder' effect and
that's very interesting to me, but still, something this massive, on such a grand scale with so many witnesses can't be explained using scifi.
so to me, there are uncommon side effects that happen when the uncommon happens. that's what I think.

my focus has been on the pentagon and those lost souls.
it's part of the bigger story that can be more easily dissected and studied.

so, to you it may always be a missile.
to me, until irrefutable new proof, it was flight 77, carrying one of my favorite authors.
and please don't accuse me of holding back progress towards a new 911 commission.
free thinkers should be welcomed at PA.
circumstantial evidence won't wash will something so big.
so please, find an insider, whistle blower who will spill the beans.
but until then, this whole thing will only sour your lives.

and of course, I say all of this with respect and good will to all PAers.

Well thats fine, jimmer accepts the plane hit, and 99% believe it did not due to overwhelming evidence. Lets leave it at that. You have experts stating the case and you choose to ignore, your right of course to accept or deny.

[Kari Lynn]

Yes, I know all too well what happens when you speak a little too much. So anyone but you would have to say it! lol.
Not sure I want to either. Already had one grab attempt that I know of, and remote control of my vehicle while I was in it. Not something I want to see happen again. (Though they don't try to grab me for talking to much of these things, but for speaking of my gifts, and your artifact.)

Yes, this subject is too hot for me, I think. Not the arguement of what hit the buildings, but the pain and hurt I still feel from it. 10 yrs later, and I still feel all the anguish of lost loved ones that I can't shut down. And is just as strong today as it was then. You probably feel that from me when I write here.

[jimmer]

they killed them, and kept the DNA in order to substantiate the official story and have 'proof' via the DNA samples that all 4 planes passengers were killed by nasty horrible terrorists.

I was going to give this a rest, but what's your evidence for all these murders?
precisely, please.
school me.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

With all due respects jimmer, you are the last person I would risk in order to educate, you'll learn soon enough. Those that know me well can attest to what I have personally been thru with disclosures. This forum I do not wish to see 'cleansed', nor my personal safety placed in any harm, I've been thru enough. There will be a time when EVERYTHING is out in the open regarding many things, and after that I'll fade into the backgrounds and will not need to educate anyone anymore. I also was prepared to let you continue in your safety net but I'm a bugger for pushing and then my voice needs to carry on against better judgement. You would not accept it even if papers showing what occurred were shoved in your face so why should I bother?

[Rocky_Shorz]

I was going to give this a rest, but what's your evidence for all these murders?
precisely, please.
school me.

jimmer you make me laugh...

There is no proof or the card house would have already toppled...

so you can either take it on faith that the Brits and American's have ultimate monsters controlling every action of the country...

or you can sit back and say...


show me...


which will never happen...


nobody would like to prove to you more than Spirit Wolf at this point... ;)

[shybastid]

I just read the the entire thread in one shot. Here's what I'm getting as a "pulse."

Missile or Plane Crash?

If a missle,who's missle? And who in the NWO actually did the financing behind launching it? Saudi's to blame Jews?(Chinese to get finger pointing going?) Jews to Blame Saudi's? U.S. covertly backed both sides.

If a plane crashed into any(hologram NOT) or all the buildings,who's planes were they?
Saudi's to blame Jews?(Chinese to get finger pointing?) Jews to blame Saudi's ?
U.S. covertly backed both sides?

My point? Does it REALLY matter WHAT hit the buildings? Did they REALLY get blown up by U.S. Covert operations or not? (Black OP dough goes along a LONG way on the good or bad side of spending,depending on what we want or need from that country,or group we support at the moment. We all know that)

Did the families of the deceased get back "govenment approved" proof their family member is deceased?

Creepy questions.

I see none of the real questions addressed in this forum. Just WHAT HIT, NOT Who or WHY and are WE involved. (Probaly at some level,directly or indirectly)

[shybastid]

Did'nt mean to single out Israel or Saudi's.. Meant Middle East and all our other double sided friends around the world that would gladly throw dough at blowing us up. Unfortunatly including us for profit and gain.

[3optic]

but from everything I've viewed and read, to think that a hologram, haarp,
some unknown trick of the eye caused it. that doesn't wash for me.


I don't think anyone with any credibility is suggesting this.

[Eligos]

I don't think anyone with any credibility is suggesting this.

Agreed! That is not even an issue

[SPIRIT WOLF]

One member has suggested that this topic should veer away from what hit/did not hit and concentrate on what happened to the passengers. If we venture slowly along that road it might be a painful one for some, and no doubt will be hotly debated among members.

[Axman]

7 Years ago my daughter tried to tell me that it was us who did all this 9-11 crap and I laughed and said no way. Now since I woke up it seems so simple to see so I can understand where this is coming from. Iam done. :blabla:

The Axman

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Of course many will still buy the idea that inept terrorists miraculously did it all, died but strangely some were found to be alive and well elsewhere after the attacks. How convenient a paper passport, totally undamaged flew to the street when the plane was supposedly engulfed in flames within the tower. Awful bad luck that the engine photographed on the street was the wrong size too, but lets not split hairs!!

[olgraybear]

Question Barry, do you see any resemblance to Egg?

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Hi Mike, love the avatar. Egg was a character that continued to prod prod prod with his finger and quite frankly was getting close to becoming a fried egg. Here its a different story, just someone whom for whatever reason does not want to even peek out of the box

[Agape]

Most records of historical events get twisted in their own times, not to speak about later days.

Maybe 2 or 300 years later the event will be noted in school books as 'Battle for Pentagon' :p

Which is a great reminder again of how little we understand about the reality of past and accuracy of each statements that can be subscribed to each historians knowledge, political opinions etc.

[Eligos]

Lol just stop, my bellies' hurting....:p

[shybastid]

Spirit Wolf Lets not read into what "someone" wrote too deeply about who created this 9/11 debacle. I'm off the radar.
I just brought up what I thought were relevent questions about the whole situation.
Question is more important WHO now WHAT.. That in any Wiki reports?
OHHHH So THAT did'nt get leaked.. Did'nt think so.
Heh.

[3optic]

Spirit Wolf Lets not read into what "someone" wrote too deeply about who created this 9/11 debacle. I'm off the radar.
I just brought up what I thought were relevent questions about the whole situation.
Question is more important WHO now WHAT.. That in any Wiki reports?
OHHHH So THAT did'nt get leaked.. Did'nt think so.
Heh.

Wiki hasn't posted anything above "Secret" on it's site. The chances of controversial material being leaked about 9/11 is slim to nuns.

[shybastid]

Agreed 3optic. Strange though isn't it? Nothing really surprising out of 250,000 leaks supposedly. The wiki's are more like a high school tweat leak.

[str8thinker]

(jimmer) but from everything I've viewed and read, to think that a hologram, haarp, some unknown trick of the eye caused it. that doesn't wash for me.

I don't think you need to consider a hologram, but to me it's quite feasible that a little video editing went a long way. You should maybe watch Richard Hall's 3D analysis (http://www.richplanet.net/911.php). This can explain the "airliners". The rest of the job was a controlled demolition.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

We could work on possible explanations regarding the actual 4 planes in question and their pasengers, of course its going to be speculation but at least educated speculation, based on the complicity of the US government at the time. I do not read into anyone, I base everything I do on many years experience in the field, and working with the 5992nd I have experience with psychological aspects too.