Yes, indeed they do.Quote:
Posted by RedeZra
And, your Bible is an excellent example of their handiwork.
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Yes, indeed they do.Quote:
Posted by RedeZra
And, your Bible is an excellent example of their handiwork.
I'd like to suggest some additional words that may be missing from your perspective Vibrations. Please correct me if I my notions are off.
What you offer is not mere logic, but a commitment to discover truth from much deception, and your commitment required time and effort to resolve. This is much more than logic.
I have a notion this is why you seem to reflect a "Personal Religious" perspective of a unique path, and not parroted doctrine and dogma of one of the various and sundry "Organized Religions," and are likely to resonate truth when you speak.
- 58
Quote:
Posted by vibrations
It's probably quite true what you're saying. The logic I mention is off course my logic, my view, my point of observation, and that means totally personal, nothing to do with some Universal truth or everything. I am a result of all my experiences during this and some also from past lives. I just try to present my thoughts about the Bible which does not put me in any higher or lower position as anybody else. It's a discussion where we do what we can. Some think that they have to convince, some merely add some glimpses, some try to expose their view.Quote:
Posted by 58andfixedI'd like to suggest some additional words that may be missing from your perspective Vibrations. Please correct me if I my notions are off.
What you offer is not mere logic, but a commitment to discover truth from much deception, and your commitment required time and effort to resolve. This is much more than logic.
I have a notion this is why you seem to reflect a "Personal Religious" perspective of a unique path, and not parroted doctrine and dogma of one of the various and sundry "Organized Religions," and are likely to resonate truth when you speak.
- 58
Quote:
Posted by vibrations
And about personal religion. I would like to believe in me more and more. The rest is the expedition on the past guided by what I felt was good in that particular moment. My conclusions have no less no more weight than rederZra's. It's just believe, one of millions. But sharing this believes can bring us new points of view and widen our perspective. And you said very well, "unique path", but aren't we all on our unique paths?
Hey it IS all there.
It's a lot clearer in discarded texts like the gospels of Thomas and Magdalen and others, but that stuff isn't lost any more.
And no one is fooled anymore about why it disappeared.
And if you're ambitious enough to check out the Old Testament with the language and code that it was really written in, it reads just like the Tao,
which strangely (interestingly) Spirit once told me, is the only remaining modern discipline that resembles Jesus' teachings at all.
Or brave enough to accept that everything is showing us the same thing in some way. And in any way that you're able to hear it, it's going to keep making that offer.
So it's a funny old puzzle, this 'mysteries' stuff.
But what we can conclude is that if you just turn your mind over to a church and think you've done your work, you'll never get a glimpse of truth.
That is, until truth reaches down through the clouds of confusion and grabs you and takes you home.
Which it will.
Seems like that's what's happening.
In the meantime, have fun. Believe whatever you like.
Jesus is son of god, but we are too. We all came from the same source ( god ).
- Jesus was also a teacher but not many people realised his teachings.
WE create our own heaven or hell, nobody or no god has set a perfect or torturous world for us. It is a path and endless journey that we take on and it is up to our own free will how we balance it and where we end up.
- The bible is not correctly translated. Great mistakes have been made while translating from Hebrew to Greek - Church Slavonic and lastly to all other languages. The word CHURCH itself is one of the worst translations ever made, or the word ABOMINATION. It is very important to understand that the bible was also written in symbolic language and it is not to be taken literally.
- Christianity is a very fragmented group. First there is the original Christian world - the orthodox , then we have it's twisted and perverted version - roman catholic and then even worse we have all those christian sects that i don't really need to name them right now.
I am born as orthodox christian and even thou i have great respect for it i have chosen to seek truth and "god" within my own heart and not from a book or other teachings.
I am the truth for my world, for my heaven or hell because i can choose and have free will.
What about all the ''witches'' that were burnt? Is that fake?Quote:
Posted by RedeZrathen you muzz dig deeper ; )Quote:
Posted by Muzz
human history is bloody reading and suffering predates Christianity with thousands of years
much of the world is today run by a few secretive families who still plunges mankind into wars crime and corruption
i guess if satisfied with sloppy research then also this can be blamed on Christianity
we all know that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public
and it is a tedious task trying to figure out what is true and false regarding our origin and history because the PTB is not helping but misleading us down their version of history and origin
the PTB knows a whole lot about found facts and artifacts but for some reason they dont share with the public
so everybody is a detective hehe ; )
What about the women, muslim and jewish that were raped by the crusaders in Jerusalem when it was captured?
Are you saying that the crimes committed by the christians and their church in history are not true?
And who are you to decide what gospel is reliable or not?
2000 years after all the goings on were alleged to have happened?
What I find is that people become dogmatic and then justify what fits and what doesn't.
I know, I was like that with my beliefs about race and politics.
Patronizing and dismissive.Quote:
then you muzz dig deeper ; )
Did your book improve the situation?Quote:
human history is bloody reading and suffering predates Christianity with thousands of years
The main tools for this are books like your bibleQuote:
much of the world is today run by a few secretive families who still plunges mankind into wars crime and corruption
A wee dig there? Can you clarify whats sloppy about my research.Quote:
i guess if satisfied with sloppy research then also this can be blamed on Christianity
I agree the bible is a good example if this. The Gnostics would agree too.Quote:
we all know that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public
You right again, it is a tedious task. Mainly because early Christians destroyed all the knowledge because it didnt agree with the dogma.Quote:
and it is a tedious task trying to figure out what is true and false regarding our origin and history
Err.. maybe because it would shake the foundations of Christianity. Give the pope a phone and ask if you can have a nosey round the Vatican Vaults.Quote:
the PTB knows a whole lot about found facts and artifacts but for some reason they dont share with the public
Sorry, I gotta say this;
That's a really fun exchange that's going on. Don't let anybody squish it.
Why is it called the AUTHORIZED king james VERSION ?? Does that mean there is an unauthorized VERSION floating around ? So the king of England is the only one who can AUTHORIZE the words of energy ?? without Mary and a light ( ufo) in the sky, Jesus wouldn't be. everything comes from divine female.Quote:
Posted by Daughter of Time
¤=[Post Update]=¤
Join me and live forever, refuse and burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??
Well said!:amen::amen::amen::amen::amen::Quote:
Posted by Apex
Excellent catch!Quote:
Posted by ghostriderWhy is it called the AUTHORIZED king james VERSION ?? Does that mean there is an unauthorized VERSION floating around ? So the king of England is the only one who can AUTHORIZE the words of energy ?? without Mary and a light ( ufo) in the sky, Jesus wouldn't be. everything comes from divine female.Quote:
Posted by Daughter of Time
¤=[Post Update]=¤
Join me and live forever, refuse and burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??
I love it when people see things and then extrapolate them for themselves.
And on that same vein of thought, how can a bible be copyrighted, if it is THE bible and not A bible?
I read Deuteronomy only recently whilst reading and researching the various 'opinions' about who wrote the bible (or put it together). I was totally sickened by the psychopathic nature of Yaweh, and if anyone is in any doubt about the nature of this so called god read Deuteronomy, it is really worth the read.
Black is white indeed.
Levite priests put this lot together for a reason. Power and control
Its a big subject and there is a divine thread of truth weaving its way though the books of both testaments, it is very difficult to find and raises many questions, my favourite has always been the creation story where god/God created man twice. :)
Best not to invest too much in it until the BS detector is fully operational, in full consciousness. Then you will know for definite on which ray of creation you truly belong. Divine Consciousness or 'yaweh's gang.'
Good thread.
g
This is exactly what i mean when i say people go back to the same false arguments and don't want to hear the truth.Quote:
Posted by ghostrider
This statement of yours "they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out" is just plainly wrong and thus a lie.
It's like the MSM propaganda.
If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will start to believe it.
If you just do a little research you would have found out that the biblical canon was never discussed in Nicaea.
Even Wikipedia in it's piece over the council on Nicaea has a piece called " Misconceptions" and that says:
"A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the Biblical Canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the Biblical Canon at the council at all"
So if you take away anything from this discussion let it be that this argument about establishing the Biblical canon at Nicaea is just false.
Jesus is alive in spirit and in His resurrected body.Quote:
Posted by Daughter of Time
Nobody ever showed up with his body so that supports this theory.
And the gospel of Mary is a Gnostic writing from around the 2de century AD and was never accepted (even in that time) by the early Christians as an authoritative book and thus it never made it to the Bible like many of the Gnostic gospels from that time.
G'day All,
I said in another thread the other day that I will partake of conversation not conversion.
In that spirit, I would point out that there are many contradicitons within the Christian Bible that many biblical scholars have been unable to come to terms with and resulted in their changing their position from a fundamentalist literal interpretation to a more liberal one.
Just one small point: The Council of Nicaea (in 325) did not formulate the canon. That's a common mistake that has been spread by the internet. There is an interesting article on what the Council did do here:
http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/council_nicaea.html
Try this documentary on for size as it is a fairly good introduction to the origins of todays Bible and covers the gnostic texts and reasons why they were probably not included. The main thing I don't agree with in the documentary is that it places the writing of 'The Gospel of Thomas' much later than some recent research indicates. It is highly likely, in my opinion, that if there was an historical Jesus 'The Gospel of Thomas' is probably the first relating of his teachings.
[GOOGLE]-7560334588471801986[/GOOGLE]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...34588471801986
I am not convinced that Jesus existed as there are no historical documents to indicate he did. Titus Flavius Josephus' 'Testimonium Flavianum' is the text that is often dragged out as historical evidence but the sections where Jesus of Nazareth is mention has been largely discredited as a later second or third century addition. Now even if I were to stretch my imagination and say that the many scholars who say that it is an obvious insert are wrong, and that all the fundamentalists who say it isn't are right, there is still the uncomfortable fact that at best it is second, third, or fourth hand hearsay, from unsubstantiated sources.
Next problem of course is that the authors of the New Testament made many errors in the actual period setting.
For example...
Jesus of Nazareth... Problem is the evidence points to Nazareth being abandoned from ~700 BCE (following Assyrian massacres) until 70 CE . In all likelihood it was a mistaken reference to the Nazareen Sect. The discover in late 2009 of "Jesus House in Nazareth" by archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre is a classic example of how information is manipulated by fundamentalists to push their perspective. The way that the apologists (look at this drivel from them for a taste) jumped on this was remarkable however the actual dating of the site as much later:
What about the Israeli soldiers committing mass murder (every man woman and child were put to the sword) against the Canaanites in Deuteronomy?Quote:
The artifacts recovered from inside the building were few and mostly included fragments of pottery vessels from the Early Roman period (the first and second centuries CE).
Read what the esteemed apologist William Lane Criag (yes the same drongo from Strobel's propoganda piece "The Case For Christ") thinks of that! It was ok to kill everyone who wasn't like them evidently and that we should feel sorry for the soldiers:
Not only that but Craig goes onto say that we should be glad they killed the babies because that means, according to Craig's twisted mind, that they go straight to heaven because:Quote:
'Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing'
I've got a heap more like this so when people refer to artificial constructs like "evil" and "good" as being absolutes and how caring their male personification is I just feel sick.Quote:
'the death of these children was actually their salvation'.
Just a quick correction (in red) Krullenjongen:
Quote:
Posted by Krullenjongen
Krullenjongen, I've never heard of that before! As far as I understood the only texts from that period were from Qumran or the Nag Hammadi library.Quote:
Posted by Krullenjongen
If you have information to the contrary please direct me to where I can research it at my leisure.
Krullenjongen I am unsure as to what evidence you mean. Much archaeological evidence that fundamentalist Christians grab onto as being "proof" is placed within a century or two window... Like the above mentioned archaeological find at Nazareth. Sure there is a possibility that there was an historical Jesus and that the New Testament is not just a collection of allegorical tales but the evidence is rather slim.Quote:
Posted by Krullenjongen
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon
Try to include in that though, that the Old Testament is referring to an entirely different god than the one Jesus was trying to present.
Trying, I don't know how successful he was.
One god is insecure, controlling and vengeful (all of my favorite human traits), and the latter is an accepting, giving, benevolent parent. That seems to touch more on my understanding of what the term 'divine' means.
One rules through laws and the threat of punishment, and the other through unconditional love and corrective healing.
It seems a bit obvious that a great number of Jesus' supposed adherents still worship the former, and accordingly still fear him. And so I really can't understand their reasoning or their case for it.
I know I can't take the literal translations and ever evolving perversions of it seriously, but I can't ignore the value of that contrast. Which God would I pick if I were to pick one?
The one that suggests that God is at least as good a parent as I am? Probably.
Then again there are a lot of strangely defined terms that are used to justify that strange viewpoint.
Doesn't 'sin' really mean that I missed the target? What solution should we offer for that? Maybe take another shot?
I think pretty much everyone really intends to hit the target if the target is to find their worth somehow. An end to fear and guilt.
How do we help out with that? Make them more guilty and increase their fear? That's just weird.
Damnation is a bit irrational. I can't accept any argument with a foundation like that.
my thoughts today...
be willing to view the Bible as a symbol...like a cross, crop circles, glyph, words/logos...
and symbols serve to "speak" to both the conscious and unconscious mind- thus there is no one literal interpretation nor right answer.
And as there are varying levels of consciousness, there will be varying perceptions and layers of meaning-varying personal discoveries...
A reader of avalon forum will interpret the Bible differently to a Texan Baptist and, on this very post, there are ranging views.
Some see Jesus as a real person with worthy teachings and some see Jesus as a symbol (the sun) in terms of astro-theology
I appreciated the you-tube link (page one-Santos Bonaccci)-the Bible being an allegory for our placement within the Cosmic cycle.
That people (bible characters) are symbols of the Zodiac. I believe the Bible is allegory- showing that we are part of the comos and dance with the stars... all is interconnection and marks a return to self-sovereignty and self-awareness (also the message of Jesus).
So are we, as humans also stars and planets revolving around each-other in this great Cosmic Drama play we call, "Life"? Are we co-creators of experience? In essence, we are consciousness and consciousness can take many forms. Earth-consciousness. Gaia.
Indeed, the World is a Stage and we all play our roles...maybe many, many parts on varying time-lines and in varying dimensions.
Sure, the Bible was doctored and fiddled with ...the Feminine Voice buried and dishonoured...but if we are all part of the Drama/Comedy/Tragedy, surely there remains a key to the greater Hologram; or complete "works"....or Great Mystery...?
And so we bring forth that which remains hidden behind the veil, that which may be willing to come to light.
That great Hopi reminder...
"We are the ones we have been waiting for"
I would suggest that you tone down your rebuttals.Quote:
Posted by KrullenjongenThis is exactly what i mean when i say people go back to the same false arguments and don't want to hear the truth.Quote:
Posted by ghostrider
This statement of yours "they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out" is just plainly wrong and thus a lie.
It's like the MSM propaganda.
If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will start to believe it.
If you just do a little research you would have found out that the biblical canon was never discussed in Nicaea.
Even Wikipedia in it's piece over the council on Nicaea has a piece called " Misconceptions" and that says:
"A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the Biblical Canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the Biblical Canon at the council at all"
So if you take away anything from this discussion let it be that this argument about establishing the Biblical canon at Nicaea is just false.
To insinuate someone is a liar is bad enough, but to outright state it, when you don't know them is stupidity of the highest order.
If you can't debate nicely, don't debate, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks.
And quoting wiki doesn't mean that much, anyone can edit it, including you or me.
Trying to deny that which is well known is not a very good debating tactic.
Two opinions only division make.
Two sources that sustain what transpired at the First Council of Nicaea 325 are:
1. Wikipedia [a collaborative approach with peer review rules for source referenced comments]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
" a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325."
"This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom."
"Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father; the construction of the first part of the Nicene Creed; settling the calculation of the date of Easter; and promulgation of early canon law."
****
2. Bart D Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" lecture at Stanford University. View the lecture and the Q&A in the last 4 of 10 parts.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...istorical.html
"Christianity is not a single, ancient religion. It is a series of religions all given the same name."
"During the first three Christian centuries, the practices and beliefs found among people who called themselves Christian were so varied that that the differences between Roman Catholics, Primitive Baptists, and Seventh-Day Adventists pale by comparison." ~"Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1
****
Know that when the stiff-necked that wear blinders and cherry-pick biased references that support deniable thesis, if but some reference points were only more familiar to more.
The only question that then arises, is the intent of erroneous positions malevolent, or stubborn ignorant innocence ?
- 58
Quote:
Posted by Krullenjongen
For the sake of this thread I will re post what I wrote in another thread Case for Christ for this is quite relevant here.
If you examine what is written in current Bible is that man was :
1. perfect in body and soul
2. had everlasting life
3. no sickness whatsoever ,physical or mental
4. ability to tune in to high frequencies and understand animal kingdom aswell as plant kingdom
5. ability to openly talk with Creator
6. on high level of conscience without realization of the body nakedness (it was perfect and not shameful to look upon)
7. was beyond good and evil for it didn`t exist in his and hers world for they were in state of bliss or oneness with all that is
.
.
.
All that is lost. Hence Christ`s arrival to return mankind to that first estate and even higher.
Really that`s it.
"Fallen ones" are among else WE.
P.S.
old testament is a chronology of how to return a man from deeply disturbing primitiveness into oneness with God.
All their deeds and sacrifices were NOT asked by God ,they were allowed for they desired to do that in their fallen understanding what would be appealing to God.
God allowed it but then after some time (materialized) in Christ came to say :"It`s ok now, stop that and grow up, leave primitiveness and grow in oneness and Love."
When you honestly and carefully look upon, you will see a process of returning mankind to its former glory. It was bloody and dirty but is it better now?
We type on computers and eat steaks and drink French wines and our brothers and sisters die of malnutrition somewhere in this world...
More people are being killed daily by greed and sheer evil than then.
So instead of cherry picking from Bible and accusing ,it`s better to look the whole picture in it. It`s a holy book,just as many are holy too for God used many ways to bring people back.
If you don`t understand it or never read it or got hurt by religions in the name of God - please don`t spit on it. God is not the one to blame for deeds done of free will of church men. They kill and steal and rule over mankind in the name of God (in their name really) but can`t you see that FREE WILL is allowing them that?
We are allowing them that too.
How can we blame our Father for giving us the most magnificent gift of free will?
Do we blame him for making us in his image - Gods ourselves?
Do we not realize that we are creators in making?
Universes are waiting to be born from us , so let us grow up. Let us be Love ,just like our heavenly Creator is .