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Thread: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

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    United States Avalon Member wavydome's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

    Quote Posted by turiya (here)
    To me, "an internet of everything" is a misnomer. It simply is not a possibility. Contained within that notion of "an internet of everything" is the obsessive notion that everything will become known. An obsessive science would hold such a belief ==> that, science will one day know everything. One could even argrue that for science to have such a belief would turn this science into a religion, of sorts. And by a 'claimed' discovery of a "god particle", it appears that this is indeed the case. And, the scientists themselves being the priests of such a religion.

    [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

    I doubt that the larger sponsor of "an internet of everything" operates with common sense, or with institutional sense. Rather it would not surprise me if the sponsor had in mind the collection of "video scripts" for a library, to use for "educational purposes", in the AI camps of "their psychopathically desired future", to reeducate, the survivors of the planed ecocide... Not that I postulate success or expect it is a clever plan. Nor that it would retain the cultures of love or truth, etc...

    From the controller level, the planet Mars might be more of a model, (for future earth). There is plenty of evidence that the earth ecosystem is being forcefully destroyed in a variety of ways, as we speak. Largely by control of witless humans who generally destroy ecosystems, both directly and indirectly. By humans who seem indifferent or blind to the ongoing ecocide.

    After the "end times" pass, the mentioned library would still be used to continue the human trance and belief systems, for farmed-humans. Or farmed creatures, which are hypnotically-tranced to think they are still on the old earth. Keep them a fat and happy commodity. Or to train a semi- humanoid or farmed AI creature. This is a humanly absurd science-fi idea, but the emotional data, (collected into libraries), could possibly produce the desired commodities for the sponsoring psychopaths.

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    Avalon Member dynamo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

    An analogy:
    Just as "God" cannot predict what a "Human" will do, a "Human" cannot predict what a "Self-learning machine" will do.
    The Human can merely sit back, watch and analyze it's creation until "Self-learning machine" Revision 1.1 is released LOL...
    The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" to better understand why "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" did what it did.
    AI tech advancement is not stopping any time soon.
    The better a Human creator can create an AI tech which can express it's reasons for it's actions, the safer the AI Tech will be.

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  5. Link to Post #123
    United States Avalon Member turiya's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

    Quote Posted by dynamo (here)
    An analogy:
    Just as "God" cannot predict what a "Human" will do, a "Human" cannot predict what a "Self-learning machine" will do.
    The Human can merely sit back, watch and analyze it's creation until "Self-learning machine" Revision 1.1 is released LOL...
    The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" to better understand why "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" did what it did.
    AI tech advancement is not stopping any time soon.
    The better a Human creator can create an AI tech which can express it's reasons for it's actions, the safer the AI Tech will be.
    Hey dynamo, it appears that you are putting A.I. on the same level as the Creator God of this Universe. I would not be so bold as to make such a statement. You are saying that an A.I. robot, that is created by man, is equal to or greater than the Creator God that is the creator of man, himself.

    Wow! Now, that's what I would call a leap in faith. A quantum leap, nonetheless...

    However, I would argue that our Creator God does know what man is capable of doing, knows perfectly well what man will do & attempt to do. He isn't called 'all-seeing' & 'all-knowing' without good reason. After all, He is the Creationery Force. Without 'Him', this Universe would not have ever manifested. Neither man, nor the A.I. that man has created & is creating, would even exist without God the Creationery Force.

    So, no. I do not agree with your statement.

    I would also disagree with your statement that God - the Creationery Source - would not know what a 'Self-learning machine' will do, or is capable of doing. And I see that you have put the 'S' of 'Self-learning machine' as an uppercase font, which to me signifies that you do consider A.I. to be equivalent in stature to God - the Creationery Force that is behind all that is & has been created or will be created.

    Well, I don't quite see from where, or better, how you've come to have these notions?

    I would go as far as accepting the notion that man, who creates a 'self-learning machine', is the one that cannot predict what that 'self-learning machine' will do or is capable of doing 100% of the time. There are too many variables that could influence the 'self-learning machine's' output. Electrics / electronic circuitry have been known to have been influenced by outside forces which lead to unpredictable outcomes - forces that can be electromagnetic, gravitational, or esoteric & spiritual in nature.

    I believe I can say this as a fact... That anything that is man-made will always need to be repaired at some time or other. Man is intrinsically imperfect. Hence, anything man makes will be not be perfect. A.I. is not perfect, and cannot be made to be perfect.

    Yes, you can say A.I., being a creation of man, is perfectly imperfect. Yes, I will give you that much. But to say that A.I. is as perfect as the God the Creator, that it patently absurd, imo.

    Quote Posted by dynamo (here)
    The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" to better understand why "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" did what it did....

    The better a Human creator can create an AI tech which can express it's reasons for it's actions, the safer the AI Tech will be.
    The OP of this thread is called "The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI". Its the same name as the title of an article written by Will Knight published on April 11, 2017. (Link)

    Within that article, the author writes of an A.I. that is called 'Deep Patient' that is being used for medical research to diagnose & prescribe treatment for a variety of illnesses, which has proved to be...
    "incredibly good at predicting disease. Without any expert instruction, Deep Patient had discovered patterns hidden in the hospital data that seemed to indicate when people were on the way to a wide range of ailments, including cancer of the liver. There are a lot of methods that are “pretty good” at predicting disease from a patient’s records, says Joel Dudley, who leads the Mount Sinai team. But, he adds, “this was just way better.”
    The article goes on to state:
    At the same time, Deep Patient is a bit puzzling. It appears to anticipate the onset of psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia surprisingly well. But since schizophrenia is notoriously difficult for physicians to predict, Dudley wondered how this was possible. He still doesn’t know. The new tool offers no clue as to how it does this. If something like Deep Patient is actually going to help doctors, it will ideally give them the rationale for its prediction, to reassure them that it is accurate and to justify, say, a change in the drugs someone is being prescribed. “We can build these models,” Dudley says ruefully, “but we don’t know how they work.”
    So, dynamo, you say
    Quote "The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into 'Self-learning machine...' to better understand why 'Self-learning machine...' did what it did..."
    But thus far, that's not what they are able to do with Deep Patient. They don't know how it does what it does!

    When it comes to dealing with human patients, and the medical malpractice that has taken place over the years, together with the lawsuits that have resulted as a consequence ==> there are more people killed by medical malpractice than die in each year in traffic accidents... Then, obviously, the medical industry has to know how the A.I. has come up with the reason for perscribing the therapy that it suggests. Otherwise, lawsuits will not stop coming. The liability issue demand that the industry know how the A.I. does what it does.

    How would the medical industry explain to a courtroom judge why the A.I. did what it did?

    I think I will stop here....
    Last edited by turiya; 12th March 2018 at 01:15.

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  7. Link to Post #124
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    Default Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

    Quote Posted by turiya (here)
    Hey dynamo, it appears that you are putting A.I. on the same level as the Creator God of this Universe. I would not be so bold as to make such a statement. You are saying that an A.I. robot, that is created by man, is equal to or greater than the Creator God that is the creator of man, himself.

    Wow! Now, that's what I would call a leap in faith. A quantum leap, nonetheless...

    However, I would argue that our Creator God does know what man is capable of doing, knows perfectly well what man will do & attempt to do. He isn't called 'all-seeing' & 'all-knowing' without good reason. After all, He is the Creationery Force. Without 'Him', this Universe would not have ever manifested. Neither man, nor the A.I. that man has created & is creating, would even exist without God the Creationery Force.

    So, no. I do not agree with your statement.

    I would also disagree with your statement that God - the Creationery Source - would not know what a 'Self-learning machine' will do, or is capable of doing. And I see that you have put the 'S' of 'Self-learning machine' as an uppercase font, which to me signifies that you do consider A.I. to be equivalent in stature to God - the Creationery Force that is behind all that is & has been created or will be created.

    Well, I don't quite see from where, or better, how you've come to have these notions?

    I would go as far as accepting the notion that man, who creates a 'self-learning machine', is the one that cannot predict what that 'self-learning machine' will do or is capable of doing 100% of the time. There are too many variables that could influence the 'self-learning machine's' output. Electrics / electronic circuitry have been known to have been influenced by outside forces which lead to unpredictable outcomes - forces that can be electromagnetic, gravitational, or esoteric & spiritual in nature.

    I believe I can say this as a fact... That anything that is man-made will always need to be repaired at some time or other. Man is intrinsically imperfect. Hence, anything man makes will be not be perfect. A.I. is not perfect, and cannot be made to be perfect.

    Yes, you can say A.I., being a creation of man, is perfectly imperfect. Yes, I will give you that much. But to say that A.I. is as perfect as the God the Creator, that it patently absurd, imo.

    Quote Posted by dynamo (here)
    The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" to better understand why "Self-learning machine Revision 1.1" did what it did....

    The better a Human creator can create an AI tech which can express it's reasons for it's actions, the safer the AI Tech will be.
    The OP of this thread is called "The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI". Its the same name as the title of an article written by Will Knight published on April 11, 2017. (Link)

    Within that article, the author writes of an A.I. that is called 'Deep Patient' that is being used for medical research to diagnose & prescribe treatment for a variety of illnesses, which has proved to be...
    "incredibly good at predicting disease. Without any expert instruction, Deep Patient had discovered patterns hidden in the hospital data that seemed to indicate when people were on the way to a wide range of ailments, including cancer of the liver. There are a lot of methods that are “pretty good” at predicting disease from a patient’s records, says Joel Dudley, who leads the Mount Sinai team. But, he adds, “this was just way better.”
    The article goes on to state:
    At the same time, Deep Patient is a bit puzzling. It appears to anticipate the onset of psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia surprisingly well. But since schizophrenia is notoriously difficult for physicians to predict, Dudley wondered how this was possible. He still doesn’t know. The new tool offers no clue as to how it does this. If something like Deep Patient is actually going to help doctors, it will ideally give them the rationale for its prediction, to reassure them that it is accurate and to justify, say, a change in the drugs someone is being prescribed. “We can build these models,” Dudley says ruefully, “but we don’t know how they work.”
    So, dynamo, you say
    Quote "The Human can do such things such as programming markers (or flags) into 'Self-learning machine...' to better understand why 'Self-learning machine...' did what it did..."
    But thus far, that's not what they are able to do with Deep Patient. They don't know how it does what it does!

    When it comes to dealing with human patients, and the medical malpractice that has taken place over the years, together with the lawsuits that have resulted as a consequence ==> there are more people killed by medical malpractice than die in each year in traffic accidents... Then, obviously, the medical industry has to know how the A.I. has come up with the reason for perscribing the therapy that it suggests. Otherwise, lawsuits will not stop coming. The liability issue demand that the industry know how the A.I. does what it does.

    How would the medical industry explain to a courtroom judge why the A.I. did what it did?

    I think I will stop here....
    Hey turyia, I stated it as an analogy, not a fact LOL.
    That would be ridiculous; Human technology is not even in the same dimension as that of "God" technology.
    Please don't put words in my post.

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  9. Link to Post #125
    United States Avalon Member turiya's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI

    Thiel: Bullish On Bitcoin, Trump, & Musk; Bearish On AI, EU & Political Correctness



    "Never bet against Elon...bitcoin's a hedge against the whole world falling apart... political correctness may have gone a little bit too far."
    • Mar 15, 2018 6:05 PM

    Recent Corsi tweet regarding one of Qanon's recent post #884....
    Quote


    Peter Thiel Says Silicon Valley A ‘Totalitarian Place’ — Slams ‘Political Correctness’ http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/16/pet… via @dailycaller CENSORSHIP the hate-left has no use for 1st Amendment @realDonaldTrump #Qanon8chan @POTUS #GreatAwakening
    Quote Peter Thiel Says Silicon Valley A ‘Totalitarian Place’...
    He won't apologize for supporting Trump.
    dailycaller.com
    2:48 PM - 16 Mar 2018

    TRANSCRIPTION BEGINS @ 38:20

    Maria Bartiromo: You've been such an incredible investor. And I know people in the audience want to hear where you see growth & investment ideas.

    We've talked about crypto. Let's talk a bit about A.I. and how that's changing the world & where you see the 'growth' stories there. Health care is an area that you've also dabbled in. I know you don't like talking about, necessarily, beams or industries, because you look at specific companies. But where could you tell us that you are identifiying 'growth' stories today?


    Peter Thiel: I've been thinking alot about this question of "what aspects of technology are actually charismatic?" Where there's a good story? Where there's a story about technology making the world a better place?

    Now, it needs to also be real. It needs to be a viable business. But at least, I think you want it to be something that inspires people, that motivates the people in the company. Where its not just about making money, but it really is... has some sort of transcendent mission.

    And I think my relatively short list on that in Silicon Valley is the crypto piece, where the people working on it do have this vision of a very, very different world that they're trying to build.

    I think its still true of bio-tech, where you always have this story about creating cures for diseases, and drastically improving human health.

    And I think Elon Musk is the other one where its sort of deeply charismatic. That's sort of my rough short-list of the places of tech where its deeply charismatic.

    A.I. is possibly quite big. Its possibly... I always think its a little bit exaggerated, but its hard to know. Its, of course, its a hard word to get a handle on, because it could mean the next generation of computers, it could mean the last generation of computers, it could mean anything in between. So, its somewhat a poorly defined term. But the thing that struck me is how uncharismatic A.I. is at this point.

    Its going to take our jobs. And then, once it takes our jobs, at the singularity, its just going to kill everybody. [crowd laughs]

    I'm not sure that dystopian view is necessarily correct, or if its correct at all. But that's actually what most people believe - most Hollywood movies on A.I. believe, its what most people in New York City believe, its what most people, even in Silicon Valley, believe.

    And so, I do think that its weird... you know, we always have to ask this question - Are these technologies good? Are they going to make the world better?

    And, I think the answers to things like A.I. are quite weak. You know, we have the virtual reality - augmented reality - there are parts of that can be quite powerful. But then, again, we have this very dystopian narrative, where its just going to be people... like a twenty-something person in Japan hold up in their parents bedroom & never leaving the room, playing video games all day.

    And that kind of dystopian piece, again, seems to dominate. And so, I 'd rather focus on one where its at least a power-good story.
    Last edited by turiya; 17th March 2018 at 00:50.

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