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Thread: Racism

  1. Link to Post #281
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)

    Can we agree that these images are showing sociopathic/psychopathic behavior? By large groups? Are you aware of the historicity of these types of events?
    The pictures are very hard to look at. They should trigger an emotional response from any functioning person who is not sociopathic... But here's the thing we should look at underlying these specific type of emotional triggers. Given we agree in principal that only one with a sociopathic sensibility could endure these types of pictures without experiencing remorse or emotions ranging from rage to sorrow, does that necessarily imply that every single onlooker in the mob of people depicted are sociopathic, or even society at large is sociopathic?

    In my humble opinion, the answer is categorically, no. And here's why. The historical photos depict something I alluded to earlier, namely a condition of structural racism instilled en masse that we should not conflate with sociopathy, or hatred, or delusions of racial superiority. And we should certainly not cast a wide net of sociopathy (as far as I could tell, most of the onlookers to the crimes were white) upon an entire group of people, based on skin color, even though one can easily cite the photos as specific evidence of such. Exploiting historical injustice is a very sophisticated tactic employed by social engineers who understand very well how to employ operant conditioning en masse to manipulate specific types of responses desirable to advance a deeper, or even an entirely hidden agenda.

    In my view, something deeper is going on in the photos than the obvious crimes being committed. They depict a type of unconsciousness inculcated via social programing that renders people of all creeds and colors utterly unconscious and capable of executing atrocious crimes against humanity. I chose my words carefully. These are crimes against humanity, and not just crimes against a certain ethnic race.

    To be clear, all this merits repeating. I'm saying we should not underestimate the power of structural programing; it renders people utterly unconscious. But that's something entirely different from sociopathy. We also have the luxury of a higher degree of consciousness (thus better resolution of reality) looking at the photos today due to what advancements our society has attained in its struggle to raise awareness and understanding of structural racism. So onlookers today may better see the blatant racism of the photos (some see racial hatred, malevolence of the white race, mass sociopathy, etc.,) but the point is, I would submit society at large is more conscious today of structural racism than we were then. Moreover, we still have a long way to go and to a large degree we are still unconsciousness.

    To provide a specific example, I would argue, as a conscious observer (or put more accurately , as a more conscious observer), I see savage violence and murder in those photos, based on race, and likely only based on race, but the unconscious, i.e. the people who sanctioned en masse and who were assessors to the crimes in real time, see something entirely different. They likely see a black man who raped a white woman (innocence or guilt is irrelevant to the reality they see), or they see a thief who stole food or property from a white person, or they see a person of color who committed some other unthinkable crime commensurate with a death sentence. In other words, their resolution of reality is highly spurious and skewed. To be clear, I should point out I'm not condoning their collective judgments or lack thereof; I'm simply saying the mob depicted in the photos, and without implying any other value judgment to the observation, is a group of unconscious actors. And of course all of this is structural racism, e.g. the victims are all guilty until proven innocent, especially when their crimes are waged against whites; often they are totally innocent and framed of crimes they did not commit (the latter is blatant racism and sometimes even blatant hatred, but on the individual level, not en masse), and sometimes the victims' only real crime has been the color of their skin. The takeaway is the unconscious cannot see the so-called "real" crime, which we all understand is a non-crime, simply because they are utterly unconscious.

    Joe is absolutely right. None of us truly own our own minds outright...it is a very dangerous aspect of the human condition. And most of us, regardless of color or creed, have no original thought. If the truth be told, in my estimation, this is at the root of structural racism.

    In my humble opinion, we need to cultivate individuals (not groups) to think critically and in a Descartesian sort of way, especially if we are trying to unravel specific social injustices prevalent in society that have been perpetrated and propagated by utterly unconscious actors. And we certainly need to develop a recognition of the traps of further programing and conditioning and learn how to avoid them.

    Kind Regards,

    T Smith
    Last edited by T Smith; 10th June 2019 at 01:28.

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    Default Re: Racism

    T Smith,

    I think that whole societies can have sociopathic traits, particularly when it comes to the treatment of the 'other.' Empathy is not extended to those who are judged as that different, belonging to a different tribe...etc... And if empathy is not extended and repulsion added to the mix it can become horribly cruel. This is best exemplified in atrocities of war, but it can happen within a culture as well.

    Currently our treatment of domesticated farm animals in agri-business wins awards for sociopathic behavior. Those who eat meat, in an unconscious way, are no different than Germans who didn't give a thought as to where Jews, Poles, Gypsie, the disabled, were disappearing to, during the Holocaust.

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  5. Link to Post #283
    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Those who eat meat, in an unconscious way, are no different than Germans who didn't give a thought as to where Jews, Poles, Gypsie, the disabled, were disappearing to, during the Holocaust.
    I don't agree with this at all, but it would be interesting to have folks walk through the industrial style (for lack of a better term) farms and see if they chose their meat differently thereafter. Ya know, like how Patton made citizens walk through concentration camps.
    Just as every cop is a criminal
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  7. Link to Post #284
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    T Smith,

    I think that whole societies can have sociopathic traits, particularly when it comes to the treatment of the 'other.' Empathy is not extended to those who are judged as that different, belonging to a different tribe...etc... And if empathy is not extended and repulsion added to the mix it can become horribly cruel. This is best exemplified in atrocities of war, but it can happen within a culture as well.

    Currently our treatment of domesticated farm animals in agri-business wins awards for sociopathic behavior. Those who eat meat, in an unconscious way, are no different than Germans who didn't give a thought as to where Jews, Poles, Gypsie, the disabled, were disappearing to, during the Holocaust.
    Yes, societies can have sociopathic traits, but that doesn't mean whole societies are technically "sociopathic", per se. It means they are operating in full unconscious mode, or in quasi-conscious mode at best, but nonetheless are in denial (as in the examples you cite).

    The difference is, as I see it, one can't cure a sociopath by raising her or his awareness. Sociopaths are unable to experience empathy as the result of her or his biochemical constitution. The same society, at large, that is in denial or seemingly sociopathic about one set of circumstances can be very empathic on another set of circumstances.

    The issue of not extending empathy to others judged as different dissipates almost immediately (save for those who are truly sociopathic) when one comes to the epiphany that supposed differences are spurious and founded on an ignorant understanding of reality.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Those who eat agri-business meat have been fully exposed to information about how these operations function. Turning a blind eye to suffering because those that suffer are 'other,' and regarded as inferior, (in this case, animals )represents empathy being withheld or not felt. You could definitely say that it is quasi-conscious, or even a form of mild cognitive dissonance.

    I don't have an issue with meat eaters, provided they know where their meat is sourced from. Otherwise I regard them as exhibiting cultural sociopathy. This form of sociopathy belongs to the whole realm of, 'out of sight, out of mind.' It also holds true for those Amnesty International advocate for. Does it mean the people engaged in willfull blindness are sociopathic? Likely not clearly so. It's the culture, as a whole.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Those who eat meat, in an unconscious way, are no different than Germans who didn't give a thought as to where Jews, Poles, Gypsie, the disabled, were disappearing to, during the Holocaust.
    I don't agree with this at all, but it would be interesting to have folks walk through the industrial style (for lack of a better term) farms and see if they chose their meat differently thereafter. Ya know, like how Patton made citizens walk through concentration camps.
    Germans were stressed, had been shat on by foreign powers, demoralized and etc... They didn't WANT to know what happened to people they considered weak, inferior, part of their past problems...on and on. But fascism with an emphasis on strength, vitality, survival of the fittest and other mythologies, encouraged cruelty because it encouraged aversion and revulsion.

    As far as people being taken through an agribusiness facility as a way of changing behavior...yes...it would work for some. I agree completely.

    Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC There are enough animal rights threads on the forum. Sorry I derailed. Its a topic that's been on my mind...a lot...as I am currently changing my diet in the hopes I will be healthier and less sociopathic
    Last edited by AutumnW; 8th June 2019 at 22:05.

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  13. Link to Post #287
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Germans were stressed, had been shat on by foreign powers, demoralized and etc... They didn't WANT to know what happened to people they considered weak, inferior, part of their past problems...on and on.
    Not sure the German people considered Jews and Gypsies weak, inferior, etc. Maybe the braintrust of the Nazi party did, but I would say even the outer ranks of the Nazi party were simply automatons who knew not what they did. Regardless, Germans and Nazis are not the same thing. For the most part it is human nature to fall in line rather than resist, even when you know something is immoral and wrong.

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    Default Re: Racism

    T-Smith,

    Most Germans became Nazis after Hitler came to power. It's understandable. He gave them hope and jobs. Sound familiar? And then, yes, they were susceptible to all of the brainwashing and ego stroking that being an Aryan entailed. They were very human, but their culture which had been historically quite open and cultivated and likely pretty humane became very sociopathic.

    Sociopaths and psychopaths as individuals are all shadow and ego, all the time, though they manage to hide it some of the time, depending on the situation. Sociopathic traits in a society can be overt or covert or a mix of both. Shadow and light, conscious and unconscious and sometimes both at the same time about the same topic.

    That being said, I think we are improving. More people are aware and working for a better world. I have hope

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    Default Re: Racism

    When it comes to eating (factory produced) meat I would suggest that people were educated and shown in schools how the meat in neat packages are really prepared. I think it might be too traumatic to show such horrific factory conditions to children, but at least teenagers should know how they're participating in with the mass slaughter and then make a choice if they want to continue on that path. I certainly never saw anything like that in school and when I first discovered such material I was so shocked that I started to contemplate on becoming a vegetarian. Another thing that turned me into a vegetarian was when I got my dog. He reminds me of a pig so what's the difference between him and pigs? I wouldn't want to eat either. Then again, I was never that much into meat eating anyways so it was somewhat easy to stop doing that. I could sacrifice my selfishness so others wouldn't have to so suffer so much.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    United States Moderator Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    quick mod note: i just included this in Star Mariner's recent thread 'Diversity Is Not Strength' thread and thought it might be relevant here too.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    thanks for opening up this discussion star mariner.

    i think i would say *forced* diversity isn't strength. but i do understand why it is encouraged sometimes.

    nuanced topic. exclusivity certainly isn't the solution either.

    devil's advocate here: ever since the jordan peterson phenomena began, we've been having this conversation about identity politics. what are "identity politics"? without looking it up, it would seem to be that it is a term used to describe a group or groups of people who use sex and race and sexual orientation to curry favor and/or use victimhood to push forward various agendas.

    and there is certainly some of that going on.

    other concepts that peterson has introduced to the mass consciousness are:
    1)equality of outcome: tyrannically forcing equity amongst people of all races and sex and sexual orientation in the workplace, universities, athletics, clubs, groups, so forth.
    2)equality of opportunity: giving everyone the same opportunities and the freedom to choose

    2 seems the reasonable route, but what if certain groups aren't getting equal opportunity? what then???

    well, then they are forced to play "identity politics" because their group or groups have been unfairly treated and discriminated against.

    to play devil's advocate here again, it appears some folks are forced to play identity politics as a result of various institutions identifying them solely as their group...be it color, sex, sexual orientation etc

    they may not be getting "equal opportunity" and therefore have no choice but to stand up for themselves. when they do, they are ridiculed and their movement slapped with accusatory labels, like "identity politics".

    sometimes it seems like an underhanded and sneaky way of using language to suggest something noble is instead sinister and agenda-driven.

    take race, for example. when this argument is made against someone like a ben shapiro or a crowder or whoever, they will generally jump in and demand stats and pie charts and study results proving that discrimination exists..as if something like racism would be overtly written into legislation

    in the words of comic bill burr: "..real racism is quiet, it's subtle...people look around first, make sure the coast is clear....there's disclaimers involved, like "you know i'm not racist but (fill in group name followed by f#cked up conversation)..that's how it goes down

    he goes on: (paraphrase)..."there's not gonna be any white guys standing up in a swimming pool saying, "...there's negros in the pool!! does anyone approve of this?? i work down the street at the bank...can i get fired immediately please!"





    T. Smith's last paragraph sums up very coherently my feelings as well:

    Quote It's so very important to raise awareness of the agenda underlying cultural Marxism without unintentionally employing it as a tacit apology for legitimate racism and sexism. It's a slippery slope.
    Last edited by Mike; 9th June 2019 at 19:13.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Thanks Mike. That was excellent. Hard to fathom those who say that racial prejudice against African Americans doesn't exist. Ben Shapiro's such a dweeb.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    take race, for example. when this argument is made against someone like a ben shapiro or a crowder or whoever, they will generally jump in and demand stats and pie charts and study results proving that discrimination exists..as if something like racism would be overtly written into legislation

    in the words of comic bill burr: "..real racism is quiet, it's subtle...people look around first, make sure the coast is clear....there's disclaimers involved, like "you know i'm not racist but (fill in group name followed by f#cked up conversation)..that's how it goes down

    he goes on: (paraphrase)..."there's not gonna be any white guys standing up in a swimming pool saying, "...there's negros in the pool!! does anyone approve of this?? i work down the street at the bank...can i get fired immediately.


    In this clip, Ben Shapiro says that in order to solve a problem you need to first identify what the problem is. He specifically says he’s not denying racism exists, he’s saying you need to first identify the racist institution or individuals, and only then can a political solution (legislation) be made.

    If you try to legislate “subtle” racism, as in the kind in Mike’s second example with comic Bill Burr... how are you going to legislate a solution to that? It sounds an awful lot like thought legislation. And now you’ve criminalized thoughts at the expense of personal freedom.

    That’s the kind of dialectic thinking the global cabal was trying to force you into to begin with. Identity politics has been weaponized and used as a tool against the personal freedom of the very people you were trying to help to begin with.

    Cathrine Austin Fitts talks about another piece of the control system (problem). About the actual institutional racism found at HUD, and implemented as policy from the highest levels. In short, these policies are implemented to 1) profit from the destruction and rebuilding of infrastructure 2) profit from illegal drugs trade 3) destroy targeted groups cohesion and family structure 4) rebuild destroyed family structures/nations with a collectivist structure.

    Problem, reaction, solution. Ending institutional racism in the US could be as easy as ending HUD and ending CIA. Anyone care to tackle that problem? Maybe we should just complain about the symptoms?

    Government is used as the tool to implement these policies that drive the culture.

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    Default Re: Racism

    You cannot legislate racism out of existence.

    I have been contemplating the similarity of the definitions I last posted. Those definitions show how racism is institutionalized. The more I consider the roots of racism the more it becomes apparent that racism is and was invented as an excuse to justify immoral acts perpetrated against minorities within larger groups.

    Racism is just one form of this. Stereotypes are also an expression of this dynamic, just as laws designed to curtail the actions of particular groups within society.

    There is also the novelty factor to account for - so the first encounter with a race that has visible differences will become the basis for explaining superiority.

    Racism is a means to excuse the exclusivity of a society.

    Now that natiionhood is under attack, institutionized racism has to be abolished.

    That is why the proud pure races of Europe are currently under attack. It is these sort of nations that invented racism in the first place...
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 10th June 2019 at 16:18.
    If not now, then when?

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    T Smith,

    I think that whole societies can have sociopathic traits, particularly when it comes to the treatment of the 'other.' Empathy is not extended to those who are judged as that different, belonging to a different tribe...etc... And if empathy is not extended and repulsion added to the mix it can become horribly cruel. This is best exemplified in atrocities of war, but it can happen within a culture as well.

    Currently our treatment of domesticated farm animals in agri-business wins awards for sociopathic behavior. Those who eat meat, in an unconscious way, are no different than Germans who didn't give a thought as to where Jews, Poles, Gypsie, the disabled, were disappearing to, during the Holocaust.
    Amen!!! This is the sad truth that few are willing to look at. If animals don't have a personal attachment ( a pet, companion animal, service animal ect.) to humans many can just put the blinders on and forget the suffering involved in having it placed all neatly wrapped in the grocery store. How would many feel having a farm factory of animals that looked like their favorite dog or cat being tortured?

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    Default Re: Racism

    UNDOING WHITENESS

    RAINIER BEACH YOGA
    COMMUNITY. COMPASSION. TRANSFORMATION
    https://www.rainierbeachyoga.com/undoing-whiteness/

    Are you a white person wanting to unpack the harmful ways white supremacy is embedded in your body, mind and heart?

    Are you looking for an embodied approach to racial and social justice?

    Are you craving a spiritual community where oppression and privilege can be addressed with compassion and honesty?


    This awareness-building exploration is for white people to begin or continue the work of looking into the ways whiteness is conditioned within us as well as committing to an action we want to bring out into the world supporting racial justice.

    In this class we will:
    • have a discussion around the pathology of whiteness and how contemplative practices can be supportive tools to navigate looking at our conditioning with fierce compassion
    • practice tools of embodiment to understand how this lives not only in our psyches but also in our physical bodies
    • meditate to understand how the mind is affected by whiteness, as well as how the mind can be a tool to counteract whiteness with awareness and humanity
    • share an action we plan to commit to in order to support our desire for racial justice in our communities
    • Use Shelly Tochluk’s book Witnessing Whiteness as a guide for our work. Reading is recommended, but not required.

    Frequently Asked Questions:

    What is an affinity space?

    Affinity space, or sometimes called caucus space, is when people who are assigned the same social membership get together to work towards justice and equity. Caucusing can happen with a variety of social memberships (i.e. people of color, white, queer, straight, etc.). Caucus space has been used for decades in racial and social justice movements, and Rainier Beach Yoga is committed to both caucusing and multiracial work.

    Why “undoing” whiteness?

    There has been a call for white people to name our whiteness for decades now, and this is an opportunity for white folks to face our socialization under white supremacy and how it shows up in the body, mind, emotions, relationships and all social systems. Facing whiteness is about being in process with the implicit and explicit norms that maintain white supremacy, and this exploration is to discover and bring awareness to how those norms operate within and around us. Interrogating whiteness means that we no longer hide from the conditioning of whiteness, and we name and take responsibility for the ways white supremacy advantages and dehumanizes us.

    Who am I accountable to?

    I am accountable to my mentors of color and white anti-racist guides. My approach is informed and inspired by bell hooks, adrienne maree brown, Ijeoma Oluo, Robin DiAngelo and personal friends and colleagues (both white and people of color). I also work directly with Reverned angel Kyodo williams, Leticia Nieto and Shelly Tochluk. I will continue to learn for the rest of my life. At times I work with people of color and other times I respond to the mandate to address white supremacy with other white people.

    Is this a safe space for white people?

    This is not a safe space or a brave space. This is a bold space, and a space to be challenged and to find your edges. I can not and do not guarantee comfort.

    Why are you reading a white author’s book?

    I am deeply committed to bringing in a variety of voices, and there is always something in each session that comes directly from lessons from mentors of color. The book we are reading at this time is written by a white cis woman. Our work is to learn from her journey and also to critically examine that work for how it may still be perpetuating white supremacy. We are committed to listening to both POC and white voices.

    Can people of color attend?

    Everyone is welcome.

    How can a Yoga class work with undoing whiteness?

    This is not a class of physical yoga postures. The word yoga means union and wholeness. White supremacy gets in the way of finding union (both within ourselves and with each other). My awareness practices, including yoga, have deeply impacted my own interrogation of whiteness, and I offer the things that have helped me. I am forever a guest to Yoga and also understand that using a colonized practice to face whiteness is evidence of cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is another aspect of white supremacy that I want us to face. We do this through a variety of tools and methods including: awareness practices, theater, embodiment, writing, art and discussion. It is important to continue to examine the ways I use Yoga practices and the impacts this has. I am committed to deepening my understanding of how Yoga has been historically colonized in the West by white people-and how my training is a part of that which I can not get away from it.

    Why are you doing this work in a gentrifying neighborhood?

    Gentrification is one of the most destructive ways white supremacy is currently operating. Here is a list of ways white people like me can work towards repair:
    1. Support POC-owned businesses
    2. Get to know people of color in the neighborhood
    3. Support POC teachers
    4. Support POC caucus space
    5. Do not interrupt or question the need for POC caucus space
    6. Learn about the impacts of gentrification
    7. Offer reparations
    8. Offer free or low rent
    9. Hire people of color and pay a living wage

    Rainier Beach Yoga is committed to these actions. It is clear these actions will not end gentrification as this is a systemic issue that needs to be addressed systemically.

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    Default Re: Racism

    This undoing whiteness yoga horse manure makes me want to vomit. I am assuming this is in California?
    “The World is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
    Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Racism

    While in Hongkong I lived with a Chinese family. Each family member had their good and bad days. All were simply human. When I got back to London white people suddenly looked pink and had big noses. Then I lived in Barbados, for years, immersed in West Indian culture, and also white wealthy culture. There I stayed in the homes of many of my black friends. Prejudice was undeniable, both sides were hyper, but the worst was from white Americans towards me whom they considered a white priviledge person. So I find now that today’s racism is policing whites more than the original racism. These racial police seem to like to fan the flames. Like sixties radical feminism, which actually ended up being counter-productive because of the rude manners of the militant end of the spectrum.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Ya. And dont forget...brown eyed people are superior to blue eyed. Bunch of bs
    If not now, then when?

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    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Joe (here)
    [B]

    In this class we will:
    • have a discussion around the pathology of whiteness .....
    Whiteness is not a pathology. Hard for me to take anything past this assertion seriously.

    If one paid tuition for this class she or he should demand their money back.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    This undoing whiteness yoga horse manure makes me want to vomit. I am assuming this is in California?
    This is in Seattle, Washington. But these ideas and language are found everywhere. I have a family member attending school in New England area, and she is harassed with liberal ideology from students and teachers alike, and out of 30 people she is the only voice of opposition. She gets the “white privelage” label thrown at her regularly.

    I remind her she actually is privileged. Not from her color, but because of her educational foundation in philosophy, morality, and strong midwestern work ethics.

    Here’s something interesting to ponder. The students and staff will forgive her for having different points of views, the part that they see as unforgivable is not voting! That is, refusing to fall into the dialectic trap is considered worse than anything else including racism.

    The psychopathy of trauma induced culture is so transparent, but pointing it out only makes the victims even more illogical.

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