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Thread: Racism

  1. Link to Post #421
    Avalon Member Hym's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Mark/Rahkyt. It is the best of real education you share here. I am appreciative of it all.

    And, maybe more to the point, it is the contributions of all who have participated here by inquiring, sharing and challenging that give the subject it's worth. It'd be, as it always is, much more insightful when more share their viewpoints and experiences. Kudos for asking others to contribute.

    The insights, the depth of looking into all aspects of the subject and all of it's impact in so many areas of our lives is, but should not be, unique. It runs to the core of those things that claim to be just.

    Put it in books, in curriculum and into communications wherever people gather and claim to be fair, open and equal in the application of civil rights and employment opportunities.

    In this life I have noticed that I arrive personally at the end of many injustices, at the times of reckoning, judgement and settlements that prove the worth of being... hue-mun.

    Now I see that those things open up new paths to run, as the walk of humanity, for me, is way too slow. (Ray muhn ih bidi jog juhmaaoo...Singee such uhkuhpuht kuntuhlaa... My mind...opening to the true sight..discipline your focus in this way..)

    When the color of being from the heart overcomes the mind, the mun, the man, the mundane, it expands beyond the field of normal sight and reaches even the soul-bound blind.

    It takes but a few to make the paths open, but they must be thoroughly introspective, enough to clear the debris, as the insights of one opens the hearts of many.
    Thank YOU!
    Last edited by Hym; 25th February 2020 at 17:24.

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  3. Link to Post #422
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Hi Mark, that Toronto University professor's name is Nicolas Matte. I know which video he makes the claim in but I don't have the timestamp atm. Too pressed for time to find it atm, but will definitely do that and post here a little later.

    As far as Trump goes, I think the more radical elements of the left (sorry Dennis!) are just as responsible for his popularity as anything. I think they actually created the phenomena that they so abhor thru their excessive moralizing and sermonizing and thru their postmodern stunts. The radical right is the equation balancing itself, as they say in the Matrix movies. That's how I see it anyway. Let me guess, you disagree?

    You're right, we both want what's best for the world. I've never doubted your good intentions either. I know you're a good man. It's obvious. It's just that our diagnosis of the issues and our ways of remedying them differ

    And btw, I'm not a political animal at all. I didn't vote for Trump, for what it's worth, and I don't want to get into the business of defending him. But his rise to power is not quite as simple as a bunch of ignorant red necks voting him in. Much more nuanced than that in my view.

    Mac, I have to respectfully push back a little on what you said in an earlier post. Mark knows how I feel about this but I'll repeat it for you here: the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers. Did you watch all 3 videos I posted in this thread? If you have, and you still think it's just kids being kids then there is such a wide gulf in our thinking that I won't address it further. But I'm curious if you've actually watched all 3 videos.

    p.s. to be clear, I don't think Dennis is a "radical leftist". i just know he loathes those terms being thrown around
    Last edited by Mike; 25th February 2020 at 18:38.

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  5. Link to Post #423
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers.
    And (I'd suggest) ego-driven, self-important, and aggressively self-righteous. That's often quite dangerous fuel to add to these kinds of flames.

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  7. Link to Post #424
    UK Avalon Member Mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Mac, I have to respectfully push back a little on what you said in an earlier post. Mark knows how I feel about this but I'll repeat it for you here: the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers. Did you watch all 3 videos I posted in this thread? If you have, and you still think it's just kids being kids then there is such a wide gulf in our thinking that I won't address it further. But I'm curious if you've actually watched all 3 videos. " "

    No I didn't, you're right apologies, life is too short. I do know the specifics though and think it's frankly ridiculous all of it. They'll be gone soon it'll blow over and blowing it out of proportion just gives them air. What I would be interested to see is what are they doing to nip this in the bud in the future. What it does need is cool headed people to analyse why it happened and and to implement measured solutions. This happened when I was at School, student strikes and teachers heckled. Lasted a week was national and fizzled out, I can't even remember what it was about (80's). A combination of parents and peer pressure stopped it after the grievances were aired. USA mmv, hopefully not. Imo a lot of the Teachers need to cop on fast and this race nonsense just needs to be eradicated because for most half way sane people it's twaddle.

    Edit: I'm curious though what would you have us do Mike it's obvious most agree it's nuts. What can we do about it that's not going to inflame it. Cheers
    Last edited by Mac; 25th February 2020 at 18:36.

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  9. Link to Post #425
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Hym (here)
    It is the best of real education you share here. I am appreciative of it all.
    Thank you for the gift of presence and attention. I have the time in my life to engage this way and I'm grateful for the space to do it and also for the participation of everyone who is helping to drive this topic forward. It is one of the most emotionally charged issues of our time and getting past the hype and histrionics to really address what lies beneath is one of the most important goals we as a species can assay considering the larger issues we have to deal with together moving forward. It is a global issue. Your words are greatly appreciated.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hi Mark, that Toronto University professor's name is Nicolas Matte. I know which video he makes the claim in but I don't have the timestamp atm.
    I'll check it out on google, thanks, I'm sure there is plenty of furor over a stance like that.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    As far as Trump goes, I think the more radical elements of the left (sorry Dennis!) are just as responsible for his popularity as anything. I think they actually created the phenomena that they so abhor thru their excessive moralizing and sermonizing and thru their postmodern stunts. The radical right is the equation balancing itself, as they say in the Matrix movies. That's how I see it anyway. Let me guess, you disagree?
    I would turn those around. The "radical Right" is more in line with the official history of America. The radical Left has always been a response to the original oppression of genocide and slavery. As I said in my last post, there has never been a time in American history where a Left has existed to this extent. Or, as Chris Rock put it:



    Sometimes comedy can approach some truths that are difficult to speak about seriously. Supremacy in any form is not a healthy way to look at the world and our place in it as members of a human family.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    You're right, we both want what's best for the world. I've never doubted your good intentions either. I know you're a good man. It's obvious. It's just that our diagnosis of the issues and our ways of remedying them differ

    And btw, I'm not a political animal at all. I didn't vote for Trump, for what it's worth, and I don't want to get into the business of defending him. But his rise to power is not quite as simple as a bunch of ignorant red necks voting him in. Much more nuanced than that in my view.
    What is your way of remedying some of these issues that might be different from mine? I am curious, as that is the topic of the thread and talking about solutions should be a part of all of this.

    And in regards to Drumpf, I am inclined to agree, to the extent that he is an expression of a desire by a plenary that transcends political party, seeking to build a neo-apartheid sanctuary out of the potential Democracy most Americans would like to see realized.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers.
    And (I'd suggest) ego-driven, self-important, and aggressively self-righteous. That's often quite dangerous fuel to add to these kinds of flames.
    That is true, as far as it goes.

    It is also behavior that has been, historically and accurately, assigned to the other political side of this equation, most particularly in relation to the categorization of "the other side", the Left, as an ethnic rather than ethnic + sexual minority. The addition of the white kids, makes them generally unassailable by police violence, as they are potentially the children of privilege.

    Consider who their "enemy" is. Who they are fighting against and the message they are seeking to get across. They see themselves as assailing a system that has historically considered their lives automatically forfeit as people like that have historically been considered to be property of that system and, therefore, imminently expendable. If the police can be considered to be "Kidnappers and hostage takers" and economic violence alongside sheer, terroristic subjugation are their tools, then in most logical extrapolations of these responses, more extreme violence could have been forthcoming in that scenario but, so far, has not been.

    The LGBTQIA white kids are standing with their black and brown friends and lovers and they act as a shield. Some of them are radicals, in the tradition of John Brown, it seems, and "extreme" measures are apparently not off the table.



    Are these children the ones to put them out? Are they responsible for taking the higher road, and expressing a way of being that has never existed before now?
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 25th February 2020 at 19:50. Reason: add discussion and links

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  11. Link to Post #426
    UK Avalon Member Mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Mark I've seen white on white racism and its consequences. The devastation of being born with baggage that has nothing to do with the individual born. I've seen it cause people to bomb and kill and maim. I've seen it kill spirit so much they end up addicted to drink drugs and become disowned and despised by even their own kind. I've seen it make it people live psychotic lifestyles as" hard cases" just trying to validate themselves.
    I don't know what it feels like to be a black Man, but what I do know racism is always going to be around in some form, until we evolve a bit more 8) What in your opinion is the best way to teach kids how to see past it, look down on it for what it is. Everyone can be capable of racism/tribalism whether they know it or not when push comes to shove, again see history. Your jails are full of the results of a demographic who believed the lies, not all obviously but the cultures sometimes within disaffected groups can be a bit unhealthy. How can we get it into the children's heads not to own it or be affected by it,because it's never healthy if they do. Same goes for the non racist white folk who get labelled guilty. How can we get it in their heads yes it's history but it's not you,forgive, learn from it, don't repeat it and move onward and upwards. Sorry Mike for slight deviation.

    Edit: I also understand that a black Man in some jurisdictions would get jail probably quicker than the white boy from a different part of town. Although I am only guessing at that, haven't looked at the stats,but fairly confident. I still think just teaching them to remove the baggage, if they can is the way to go imho. To be fair the majority do don't they. We manage fairly well here in the UK for all our faults. Brexit got a bit weird but normal service resumed-ish. The times are a bit bleh but been far worse so we ought to be hopeful...maybe. We've moved on a bit, again see history. Still a way to go but doable. 8) (fingers crossed)
    Last edited by Mac; 25th February 2020 at 23:15.

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  13. Link to Post #427
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Mark you know what the real irony of this entire dialogue is? We couldn't have even had this conversation on the Evergreen campus. We'd be shouted down immediately by self-righteous sloganeering and hideous shrieks of hysterical emotion. Or kidnapped and taken hostage, who knows? (Well, you might not be shouted down, but I would have been)

    Their assumption of moral superiority is arrogant beyond belief. They are so sure of themselves that they won't even allow any dialogue that might suggest otherwise. That's the type of authoritarian ideology that creates dictators, fascist regimes, and wars.

    The black kids on campus have justified reasons to feel upset about the world. But it's no excuse to kidnap and take hostages. The trans kids have some legitimate gripes too, but it doesn't give them the excuse to throw biology in the trash...and worse yet, demand that everyone else do the same. And none of them are the arbiters of truth and justice, and therefore have no right whatsoever to abolish the freedom of speech and expression for everyone else. Without realizing it, they're fighting against the very equity they purport to be espousing.

    My remedies to the current situation won't resonate with you at all because I don't view western civilization as being an inherently evil, patriarchal society run by white supremacists. But it mostly involves facing what's in front of us (reality) with courage and strength(not inventing subjective narratives to avoid it), cultivating virtue, and embracing personal responsibility instead of blaming everyone and everything for one's issues (hey I warned you that it wouldn't resonate with you! lol)

    The victim mentality creates helpless people, it doesn't embolden them. Enabling this type of behavior creates weak, authoritarian brats. Tyrants in training, basically.

    The Chris Rock clip is great. He's a legend, love the dude. I don't mind the jibes at whites at all. But his true genius is that he also isn't afraid to admit when black people have gone crazy too
    Last edited by Mike; 26th February 2020 at 17:32.

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    Default Re: Racism

    I must add because, well because I'm not a fan of telling anyone how to feel, not that I'm suggesting that's what anybody's doing heh (oh dear).
    What I will say is, the only reason I explored this here with Mark is, he obviously has very little baggage, because it is a hot potato in US I get that.
    My experience here in the UK is not the same. I still maintain removing the baggage is the way forward.

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  17. Link to Post #429
    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Back when this thread started, I was one of the mods in the backroom discussing the issue, which had been precipitated by what I and (I don't remember who else) saw as racism creeping, well, more like stampeding into this forum. Trump had made blatantly racist statements about Mexicans and Arabs in his rise to political power, and I could see that there were a number of Trump supporters in the forum that had unmasked their own racism. Bill immediately saw this as a cultural issue, misidentified as racism. I disagreed strongly. There certainly is, or can be, a "culture clash" component to forced immigration (forced by the imperial American Empire, via war, notably), and perhaps the immigration and especially forced immigration (refugees from imperialism) issue is better identified by the much softer sounding "culture-ism" moniker, but I felt/feel that this misses the point of the underlying racism. In some cases, say Iranians, for example, the hue of skin tone is really not the issue (many Iranians could blend in - skin tone wise - with the crowd at a KKK rally), so I also realize that the simple, easy accusation of "racism!" isn't entirely semantically accurate.

    So, I decided early on to just stay out of this thread, to not be the "turd in the punchbowl" seemingly arguing semantics, and allow Bill to expound on his thesis.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Thanks again — but you're totally not getting it.

    Let me spell it out.

    I wrote:
    I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

    I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

    What this means — and I'm sure of it — is that most of the people in the US or Canada who don't want non-integrated people from other cultures there are not racist.

    French, German, Swedish or British people who don't want Middle Eastern immigrants there aren't racist, either.

    Of course it's not about race. It's about the preservation of culture. This is my entire point.
    The anti-Mexican and anti-Arab (expressed as "anti-Muslim") rhetoric that Trump used/uses is more honestly defined as racism as a blanket term that includes also religious-ism, and that's what I saw flooding into the forum. Mark/Rahkit has done a great job of scientifically dispelling the notion that there are separate races - we're all Homo sapiens sapiens - but what I was seeing is what is typically known as "racism" in the US. I also think that overt and covert racism in the US, where I have spent 65 years, is quite a bit different than the racism in England where Bill spent his early childhood (though Bill did also live in South Africa, where racism was/is overt.)

    So, make "racism", "culture-ism", and "religious-ism", and maybe other components of prejudice into 3 separate topics, or maybe just use "racism" as the umbrella? Or call it prejudice? I grew up and have spent my whole life in a deeply racist country, one with not only a history that includes slavery, but one in which the supreme legal document of the land, the US Constitution, literally codified racism (after having the balls to use the line, "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence.)

    I don't see much value in attempting to pursue the topic by dissecting the semantics. Perhaps 100 million aboriginal tribal people (that we still insanely refer to as "Indians") were wiped off the face of the Earth by white-skinned Europeans/proto-"Americans"...and the NFL football team in the US capital - in the year 2020 - is called the "Redskins." That's pretty powerful racism.

    Something on the order of 12 million Africans were kidnapped and rendered into slavery, about 10 million survived the slaver's conditions and the voyage, and maybe 1/2 a million ended up in the US, where slavery was legal until 1863. That's pretty powerful racism. Underpaid, slave-wage Chinese workers built the early US railroads. Japanese US citizens were thrown into prison camps in WW II. Yes, I realize that other ethnic groups, like the Irish and the Italian "white" people also suffered some slavery, wage-slavery, and codified prejudice, but again, it was at the hands of a group of white-skinned European descent people that self-declared themselves as superior, and became wealthy by exploiting all their declared inferiors, and gained governance power. White superiority was thus inculcated into US society, where it warped and morphed into multiple forms of off-the-books prejudice and called systemic racism and/or institutional racism, as well as the overt and covert racism expressed by individuals.

    This isn't opinion - it's history, the real history of the USA.

    I know that all Trump followers/supporters/cheerleaders are not racist, but those that are not racist do rationalize/excuse/ignore Trump's racism. It's not the only reason to abhor Trump as a person and as a president (oh dear god, don't compare Clinton to Trump as an excuse to support him - we're smarter than to fall for that binary claptrap) but I saw, in 2016-17, overt racism infecting Project Avalon, and wanted to stop it. In my mind, Project Avalon was never a place where lowbrows had a pulpit to spew racism/prejudice with a "first amendment" unfettered privilege, it was a place for people who were thinking outside the mainstream babble, people who saw deeper than their programming, and people breaking free from the programming - such as being ok with "acceptable" racism, ignoring systemic racism in the US, or excusing the US president's racism due to some perceived good thing that trumps Trump's racism

    So, I guess I have breached this thread now. This is my opening volley.


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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    welcome to the thread Denno, you're off to a crackling start.

    i don't have an issue with a single thing you've written.

    my issue is this: what happened at Evergreen, and what's happening on college campuses across the country, and what is spilling over into corporate culture as well (Google and the whole James Damore debacle) is a postmodern plague that isn't seeking authentic equity - it's seeking power....not power with but power over. It's seeking a reversal of the historic roles between oppressors and victims. Someone could make a pretty good karmic argument for that maybe - and I would have a hard time disputing it! - but what postmodernism attempts to do is make an intellectual argument for it, which to me is a disingenuous attempt at what is really a power-play masquerading as something else, all enforced by a hyper inflated sense of PC victimhood by people who aren't really victims at all, but instead future tyrants in the making

    p.s. i really wish you'd watch the 3 videos i've included on this thread on the evergreen events. i watched your 3 hour marathon, so you owe me you bastard
    Last edited by Mike; 26th February 2020 at 08:36.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Cool Dennis, right we are where we are, how do you teach kids to navigate it. What advice do we give them firstly for their own sake and to slowly eradicate it from a future society. I'm not disagreeing with you, just I can't talk about stuff without throwing out solutions for now and maybe the future, as naive as that might seem. The day we all wake one Morning and say oh we get it, is not going to happen anytime soon. Bxxger isn't it 8)

    I'm not political btw it bores me stupid. Last person I voted for over here was Corbyn. Not because of his politics because he was an honest decent Man, not owned, but he blew it on Brexit. The lies and slander dumped on him was so blatant but, lapped up.
    Last edited by Mac; 26th February 2020 at 03:20.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    welcome to the thread Denno, you're off to a crackling start.

    i don't have an issue with a single thing you've written.

    my issue is this: what happened at Evergreen, and what's happening in college campuses across the country, and what is spilling over into corporate culture as well (Google and the whole James Damore debacle) is a postmodern plague that isn't seeking authentic equity - it's seeking power....not power with but power over. It's seeking a reversal of the historic roles between oppressors and victims. Someone could make a pretty good karmic argument for that maybe - and I would have a hard time disputing it! - but what postmodernism attempts to do is make an intellectual argument for it, which to me is a disingenuous attempt at what is really a power-play masquerading as something else, all enforced by a hyper inflated sense of PC victimhood by people who aren't really victims at all, but instead future tyrants in the making

    p.s. i really wish you'd watch the 3 videos i've included on this thread on the evergreen events. i watched your 3 hour marathon, so you owe me you bastard
    Mike, I did sample the videos. I won't bother to watch them in their entirety. (Sorry, give me a different assignment as payback for watching a brilliant, eye-opening video that you told me should be required viewing.) What do you want me to say about the Evergreen student idiots? Did you think I'd defend them? Or are you just looking for someone with clear skin (I'm only called "white" - I'm much more transparent-skinned showing blood in muscles-pink hahahaha) to say that people of color can be/act racist?

    I went back to college and finally got a degree (from the 6th college/university I had attended) when I was 40, but the last university I attended was primarily night school, and primarily adults, so I didn't get the teenage and early 20s drama that your current college experience is evidently assaulting you with. But, what did you expect, signing up for a Gender Studies major, with a minor in Flat Earth Geography? It may seem like these knuckleheads with more angst than substance are the future of humanity, but really, the Evergreen debacle and whatever you're experiencing on your college campus now is really not a microcosm of reality. I don't think "postmodernism" is a good handle for what you're seeing and disgusted by. And this most certainly isn't the core tenets of "the left" (though in this example you have provided, there might be some who are also anti-war and anti-"Establishment" - meaning anti-American-Corporate-Fascist-Imperialist-Empire.) I'd stick to specifics, rather than labeling this a "postmodern plague", or your reaction to it seems more like a "Reefer Madness"-esque, pearl-clutching, hand-wringing response.

    I do see your Evergreen students (prior to their assault/siege) as victims - both in terms of what society has done to actually make them victims, but more importantly, victims of programming/brainwashing. Identifying primarily as a victim, repeatedly ripping open your own wounds, doesn't seem to be a wise trajectory toward either self-healing or societal healing. On the other hand, pretending that the culture and cultural programming isn't sick, ignoring the agenda of the psychopathic monsters that control the world, and just being a smiling android that shows up to work on time isn't doing anything to help society develop.

    Are you familiar with Picasso's Guernica? Do you accept that form of expression of outrage at atrocity? Probably, yes. So, there are lots of ways to try to attack and disassemble and heal our society that has accepted false history and deliberate programming - including notions such as that racism ended in 1863 in the US. I'm sure you don't want outrage and speaking out about racism - especially systemic and institutionalized racism - to end, or for individuals to pretend that they are not really victims of racism if they are (and in the US, if your skin tone is dark and you are not rich, or a world-class athlete or performer, you are almost undoubtedly a victim of racism.) I'm sure you're looking for a more sane, more intelligent approach.

    I've been the victim of some crimes in my life, and if I stop and think about them, I get really pissed off. Imagine living an entire life of even minor and fleeting racism, consistently and constantly brought to your awareness. Actually, like childbirth (to a man) I don't think there is any way to convey the feelings of racial discrimination and prejudice over a lifetime unless you've lived it. It's really hard to "get over it" when you know it's still going to be ongoing tomorrow, and the day after...


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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    what i was hoping you'd notice is that the evergreen debacle is a perfect case study for what's happening on a much larger scale. also hoping you'd notice that it wasn't just a race thing, but far far more than that. it's also a trans thing, and a gender thing between men and women...but mostly it's a war against common sense, punctuated by the tendency for emotionally motivated people to mob up and attack people who are making sense..and silence them. oh, all in the name of "equity" of course.

    i was hoping you'd notice how hypocritical it is. it really does need to be seen in its entirety to be appreciated.

    and i was being silly when i called your video a marathon. it was excellent, and i do wish not only high school and college kids would watch it, but the entire world. if it were up to me it would be required watching for all the citizens of the earth. i'm glad you put me onto it. thanks again

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    what i was hoping you'd notice is that the evergreen debacle is a perfect case study for what's happening on a much larger scale. also hoping you'd notice that it wasn't just a race thing, but far far more than that. it's also a trans thing, and a gender thing between men and women...but mostly it's a war against common sense, punctuated by the tendency for emotionally motivated people to mob up and attack people who are making sense..and silence them. oh, all in the name of "equity" of course.

    i was hoping you'd notice how hypocritical it is. it really does need to be seen in its entirety to be appreciated.

    and i was being silly when i called your video a marathon. it was excellent, and i do wish not only high school and college kids would watch it, but the entire world. if it were up to me it would be required watching for all the citizens of the earth. i'm glad you put me onto it. thanks again
    I stayed away from the trans and gay issues I saw in my glimpses into the videos, for this thread, because I hate to see threads get diluted. This one is already about culture-ism and racism, and I figured that's enough. Plus, I did comment and gave my (quickly encapsulated) views on transgenderism in your thread about the Argentinian soccer player.

    Yes, being oppressed and attempting to create change by being the oppressor is hypocritical (in the case of kidnap/detaining and threatening, it's beyond hypocrisy and into criminal behavior) - and ineffective to the issues as well as counter-productive in getting someone fired that wasn't the progenitor or even cheerleader of the issues that pissed the students off.

    That video that you committed the time and energy to watch is a marathon. I think I must be slipping in my ability to tease effectively and make sure the teased knows I'm teasing.


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    Default Re: Racism

    the evergreen vids are also a marathon, in fairness! but i think a worthwhile one.

    my tease mechanism is all corrupted too. ive been too damn serious lately. i think i need to start drinking again
    Last edited by Mike; 26th February 2020 at 06:23.

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    Default Re: Racism

    You've got to laugh at times just to keep yourself sane heh. I have to bit my lip because there's loads could be said but can't, so much for free speech. Some know the truth but have to talk round it all the time, strange times. The Bad guys think they're the good guys and can't figure out why most decent people are repulsed by the way they do business. But hey it's a game ffs, may they one day look in the mirror and see who they are and what they have done and are doing. Getting smashed won't work Mike it's still there when you're sober learnt that decades ago. I'm going to enjoy my family and life, pitying the poor tortured souls that can't just be. Nothing more to add from me on this topic, think we're all more or less on the same page, I'm going to stick to the lunatic threads in future, life really is too short.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Bill immediately saw this as a cultural issue, misidentified as racism. I disagreed strongly.
    A very brief note!
    1. I genuinely and highly respect every contributor to this discussion.
    2. I'm staying out if it (largely! ), too.
    3. I do remain pretty firm in my view. Without taking anything away from the very many thoughtful, fascinating and detailed posts from others, I do strongly believe that most (but not all) 'racism' is a defensive-aggressive response to the deeply ingrained need and desire to preserve one's identified culture.

      That's why I think some Ecuadorians feel uneasy about my being here. Nothing to do with skin color, or 'race'. But because they don't want their culture to be eroded or diluted by non-contributing, opportunistic immigrants like myself — and they fear that happening. I completely understand their concerns, and as I've posted elsewhere, I think the ethical grounds for me being resident here are really pretty thin.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

    I know that all Trump followers/supporters/cheerleaders are not racist, but those that are not racist do rationalize/excuse/ignore Trump's racism. It's not the only reason to abhor Trump as a person and as a president (oh dear god, don't compare Clinton to Trump as an excuse to support him - we're smarter than to fall for that binary claptrap) but I saw, in 2016-17, overt racism infecting Project Avalon, and wanted to stop it. In my mind, Project Avalon was never a place where lowbrows had a pulpit to spew racism/prejudice with a "first amendment" unfettered privilege, it was a place for people who were thinking outside the mainstream babble, people who saw deeper than their programming, and people breaking free from the programming - such as being ok with "acceptable" racism, ignoring systemic racism in the US, or excusing the US president's racism due to some perceived good thing that trumps Trump's racism

    So, I guess I have breached this thread now. This is my opening volley.

    This is important to reiterate

    Some are seeking power over other using social justice as their flag and they are bad but then again Donald trump is wrapping himself in the flag while holding a cross. Which is more of a problem?

    One is student movement or organizations trying to raise awareness(whether their cause is good or bad) the other is the executive branch of the federal government and largest military apparatus in the world.

    He removes people from EBT(which you guess it hits non whites the hardest) and then is cheered by the Evangelicals for giving them the opportunity to work.

    I mean didnt jesus say "Blessed are the poor for they are granted the right to work"? I am pretty sure he said something like that.

    At the very same time he puts children, which are not white children FYI, in cages because they came with their family, and a horrible no good culture that cant mix with the pure native culture, fleeing from political chaos in their homeland

    Again, I have to admit there is scripture for this:

    Mark 5:1 "On the other side of the sea, they arrived in the region of the Gerasenes. 2As soon as Jesus got out of the boat, He was met by a man with an unclean spirit"

    John 15:"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

    Shame on us for not following through and actually burning these people.

    But here we are talking about Evergreen college and post modernism . . .
    Last edited by Praxis; 26th February 2020 at 16:45.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mac (here)
    I don't know what it feels like to be a black Man, but what I do know racism is always going to be around in some form, until we evolve a bit more 8) What in your opinion is the best way to teach kids how to see past it, look down on it for what it is. Everyone can be capable of racism/tribalism whether they know it or not when push comes to shove, again see history. Your jails are full of the results of a demographic who believed the lies, not all obviously but the cultures sometimes within disaffected groups can be a bit unhealthy. How can we get it into the children's heads not to own it or be affected by it,because it's never healthy if they do. Same goes for the non racist white folk who get labelled guilty. How can we get it in their heads yes it's history but it's not you,forgive, learn from it, don't repeat it and move onward and upwards.
    Real education. Which is what we all here claim to be all about. And this covers so many areas that we are interested in, not just in regards to this issue but all of them. Real science education, real history education, real physical education. The world needs to move on, beyond these issues and it can be done, if people know the real stories about the past, the real foundations of science, the real nature of the body, mind and spirit connection.

    It is not in the interest of any vested power to foster a world where people truly know what is going on. But it is in the interest of the human family to create educational means by which children grow up understanding the nature of their societies and how they got that way. When it becomes possible for people to know better, they do better. Until they know better, they do what they know, which often is worse, not better. Even babies are altruistic, so there is a core nature of goodness that exists for many people, I won't even say most or all because that is certainly not so. Difference begins when we are taught it.

    Our teaching has to be better.

    Quote Posted by Mac (here)
    I also understand that a black Man in some jurisdictions would get jail probably quicker than the white boy from a different part of town. Although I am only guessing at that, haven't looked at the stats,but fairly confident. I still think just teaching them to remove the baggage, if they can is the way to go imho. To be fair the majority do don't they. We manage fairly well here in the UK for all our faults. Brexit got a bit weird but normal service resumed-ish. The times are a bit bleh but been far worse so we ought to be hopeful...maybe. We've moved on a bit, again see history. Still a way to go but doable. 8) (fingers crossed)
    If the cops' baggage was removed, their fear of black men removed, then things would be different, yes. But that is a societal issue. We are programmed from a very early age in this culture to fear dark-skinned people. It affects all of us, even dark-skinned people, who are subjected to it every day. Who recognize it because they've been subject to the exact same programming as everybody else.

    I hear from black Brits that things may not be all that great there either. These nations are going to grow more diverse, that is inevitable. We just have to teach each other who we are and institutionalize that to the extent that mass ignorance and miseducation as it is done here in the USA and elsewhere cannot take root and flourish for centuries to come.
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 26th February 2020 at 18:11. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Bill immediately saw this as a cultural issue, misidentified as racism. I disagreed strongly.
    A very brief note!

    1. I genuinely and highly respect every contributor to this discussion.
    2. I'm staying out if it (largely! ), too.
    3. I do remain pretty firm in my view. Without taking anything away from the very many thoughtful, fascinating and detailed posts from others, I do strongly believe that most (but not all) 'racism' is a defensive-aggressive response to the deeply ingrained need and desire to preserve one's identified culture.

      That's why I think some Ecuadorians feel uneasy about my being here. Nothing to do with skin color, or 'race'. But because they don't want their culture to be eroded or diluted by non-contributing, opportunistic immigrants like myself — and they fear that happening. I completely understand their concerns, and as I've posted elsewhere, I think the ethical grounds for me being resident here are really pretty thin.
    But, where is this mono-cultural Shangri La nation? The USA brags about being poly-cultural, most of Europe was already multi-cultural before a recent large influx of war refugees were forced from their own nation by USA missiles and bombs. (If a large number of ex-pat German citizens were forced all at once to emigrate to Germany, don't you think that would have caused high tensions in Germany? I agree that the tensions of foreign refugees was partly cultural, but logic tells me it had more to do with moving in too many human bodies, too fast to be absorbed gracefully.)

    Australia is poly-cultural. Canada is poly-cultural, and even has a province where French is the primary language. The story of humankind is one of migration, and the mixing or at least tolerance of cultures. Places like "Chinatown" in the US are cultural islands within the poly-culture, and fully accepted by the rest of society. You want a great bagel in New York? Anyone knowledgeable will direct you to a Jewish bakery or deli. The best Vietnamese food in southern California is going to be in a Vietnamese-dominant area. Other than a few tribal peoples (like where the idiotic "Christian" missionary caught a bunch of arrows, relatively recently), or nearly inaccessible mountainous places, there is no mono-culture to protect.

    Your example is powerful, but your conclusion that your Ecuadorian neighbors don't want you there due to culture is likely your own projection. What do you think would happen if you wrote out a short paragraph and used google translate to put it in Spanish, and said:
    "Hola, mi nombre es Bill Ryan y vivo cerca de ti. Disculpe mi pobre español, pero quería decirle que si alguna vez tiene problemas, estaré encantado de ayudarlo en todo lo que pueda. Quiero ser un buen vecino." *

    And, maybe take them a jar of your favorite marmalade.

    What do you think would actually happen?

    Genociding 100 million indigenous (but yes, even they migrated there a few thousand years earlier) tribal peoples and codifying it into the US Constitution and laws is racism - regardless that the "Indians" had a different culture than the European interlopers who wanted to (and did) steal their land. The "Uncle Tom" African slaves that mimicked/acquiesced into the plantation owner's culture (and religion!) were still SLAVES. I do think you bring an interesting element into a discussion of racism by examining culture clashes, but the real clash is over property and resources, not culture.

    *("Hi, my name is Bill Ryan and I live near you. Excuse my poor Spanish, but I wanted to tell you that if you ever have problems, I will be happy to help you in any way I can. I want to be a good neighbor.")


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