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Thread: Racism

  1. Link to Post #321
    United States Avalon Member Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Rahkyt, got another question for you. If you want to avoid this because it could potentially set off a firestorm I'll understand, maybe shoot me a PM if so. I think we're all mature enough to handle it though. This may have been addressed already.
    I don't mind firestorms. I've been center-adjacent to quite some few here and in other parts and times of my life. In this context, I welcome dissenting views on this topic because the world is watching and this is a conversation little addressed by "both sides" in the AltCom these days. That is increasing, thanks to the balanced nature of PA and the continuing polarization of populations. Clear and direct conversations are necessary with all issues aired and points of contention present for all to see and assess for themselves.

    I don't think so, at least, not directly. Thanks for the opening to do so. This is the most important aspect of the question as it addresses the underlying reason why people don't want to accept the overall ramifications of generations of white nationalism and overt supremacy doctrines. Because they feel personally involved and conflicted by association and not by individual merit, and who wants to be at fault for something that began long before they were born, let alone feel responsible for it!

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    I've thought a lot about white privileged lately. Initially when this phrase started making the rounds it annoyed me as it does lots of other whites. The more I've thought about it though, I think it's just the word 'privilege' that threw me off. I think it throws off other whites as well. I think it was explained poorly by the media (go figure).
    It is in the media's interest to create conflict as we in this space know very well. And, they have utilized a programmatic structure to address racial issues just as they have economic issues, for the very simple reason that these are the fundamental dividing forces not only in American society but in global society. Using the word "privilege" as you've determined, is a way to create an automatic "us vs. them" mentality, those with privilege and those without. And for most whites, who are ALSO under the thumb of the 1%, to call their lives privileged is a direct affront, especially because most people consider themselves hard workers or to have earned everything in their lives, so to hear that they didn't, strikes to the very core of their self-esteem and worth.

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    So, being white I never have to experience what I'm about to say: It seems like when someone is born black, they are born into a kind of a club whether they like it or not.
    Ok. Got that. Consider also, that to be born white is to be born into a club. Whether they like it or not.

    There are a couple of things to this point that I generally mention when I have this conversation, the first is that how white people experience individuality is generally illusory. The way I know this is because of the many many people I have had the exact same conversations with, almost to the word, about racial issues and individual culpability. "I don't see color", "I'm not like those others", "I was raised to treat everyone equal" and "I treat everybody the same". There are many many others but they all fall into a well-meaning range of comments that show commiseration but little understanding either of the overt signs of racism, its institutional aspect or qualities of expression from the perspective of those experiencing it.

    All of these comments speak to a range of thoughts that fall within a well-defined context shared by folks of white skin at cultural, national and international levels. The "individual" thought and behavior intended to show solidary is, in fact, showing collusion with the system and cultural complex that is apparently sub-conscious.

    Secondly, such comments are indeed indicative of belonging, of being in the same club as others like you, even if that means there are rooms in that club you don't like to go to, you're still in the general vicinity. White people not doing the work to move beyond it see the world a certain way and in particular see black and brown folks in a certain way which invariably extends to consideration and treatment of said folk. In the same fashion, I am lumped in with gangbangers, drug dealers and professional athletes in the eyes of someone who doesn't know me. I share a sub-culture with them (Hip Hop), I sometimes dress approximately similar (hoodies, high tops, boots), etc.

    These clubs are very real and even when we are hanging out of the window looking forward at a new world, some part of ourselves is still adjacent to those other rooms, attitudes and beliefs. At least, we recognize and are familiar with them and their ways by association. This is not guilt by association, it is just club membership. Most people treat folks as individuals in one-on-one interactions. As that number increases though, as the other members of the club coalesce, something happens to that interaction, invariably.

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Said person will have to obviously deal with a lot, and I don't necessarily mean just racism. Things like being pressured by other blacks. You can be called an uncle tom, you can be too dark (I think this is more an issue with gals) or too light. You have to be part of a political affiliation. You can't do certain things, I've heard Terry Crews rail against this, "Black people don't _________." Like if you wanna go skydiving or whatever. Tracking your ancestry may be impossible. If you happen to like a song and you have good bass in your car and you crank it up, someone will look at you and think "makes sense" whereas for me it's "that guy's music is loud." You need to be a scholar on race relations and when whites ask about black stuff you need to have an informative answer.

    None of this is an issue for me or other white folks. As I've thought about this I can understand that alone can be very crazy making. I imagine these are the more minor things. Whites want blacks to 'get over slavery'. Patrice O'Neal said it well, "do you want the Jews to 'get over' the Holocaust?"
    Those are stereotypes for the most part and the thing that isn't, like the tracking of ancestry, has technological solutions that weren't available not so long ago as far as most of us here are concerned. Genetic testing is a relatively recent development. Many black Americans in particular have extensive oral history, these days confirmable by records research at courthouses and in online databases.

    I would actually say that all of this (that you mention) is an issue for you and other white folks as well. Check it:

    "Said person will have to obviously deal with a lot, and I don't necessarily mean just prejudice. Things like being pressured by other whites. You can be called a N*gger lover, you can be too pale (I think this is more an issue with gals) or too dark. You have to be part of a poltiical affiliation. You can't do certain things, I've heard Robin Williams rail against this, "White people can't ________." Like if you want to go dancing or whatever. Tracking your ancestry may be impossible. If you happen to like a song and you have good tweeters in your car and you crank it up, someone will look at you and think "Makes sense" whereas for me it's "That guy's rock music is blowing out my eardrums." You need to be a scholar on how to be successful and when blacks ask about white stuff you need to have an informative answer."

    What do you think of that?

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Call me crazy, but I think whites have a kernel of racism that's hard to get out. The thing is white folks aren't aware of it because even when we truly, honestly think to ourselves if we're racist we don't see it. We think everyone should have equal rights and be nice to each other and enjoy each others company. So how could I be racist?

    It doesn't always show itself. It sucks, I have it too to an extent I think. I don't mean being disrespectful or saying things I shouldn't, but just having opinions that are kinda ignorant. You're not aware of it until a circumstances arise.

    When speaking of white privilege, whites unintentionally lump all blacks into a category of poor lazy blacks that say this. So the 'debunk' method is to drive through the hood and see how black folks on welfare are living: beer cans stacked up in the trash, rolling a blunt with kids running around and a brand new GMC with aftermarket wheels that have more value than my 20 year old truck. Maybe I get this impression because I live in the south? I dunno. But I think you wouldn't have to go far to find a white guy use that as a debunk method to being accused of being born into privileges.
    You stated that well enough that I have nothing else to add. Thank for the convo, man.
    Last edited by Rahkyt; 2nd December 2019 at 23:06. Reason: grammar

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  3. Link to Post #322
    United States Avalon Member Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    That said, living under the specter of racism is uncomfortable and markedly demoralizing. But exactly when did the minority expect to have it any other way? They are the minority. And just like when the majority win an election, the minority must put up with the agenda they do not agree with. What else can be done - civil war every time the minority looses, which is every time, by definition?
    That is the Darwinian perspective, yes, and it has worked in many case studies of similar situations in the past, of a cultural nature, generally speaking. Making this argument, you'd think that, if the tables were turned by the previous minority when they become a majority, they would do the same thing to the people who are currently in the minority.

    So ... do y'all believe that black folks across the world will enslave, murder, rape and experiment on white people, if the tables were turned?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    There is no reason in the world why one should not be proud of their heritage. But, to seriously claim that one race is actually genetically superior is demonstrably wrong...and inaccurate.

    Everyone belongs to a minority of one. How many are superior to yourself, in your own eyes? Does that make them right - and deserving of more? No.

    We are all unique individuals, and as such it is healthy to promote your race. But, the comparison of one race to another and the stereotyping of a race of people is not.
    Unique huh. Sure. In some ways. But not all.

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  5. Link to Post #323
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)
    I would actually say that all of this (that you mention) is an issue for you and other white folks as well. Check it:

    "Said person will have to obviously deal with a lot, and I don't necessarily mean just prejudice. Things like being pressured by other whites. You can be called a N*gger lover, you can be too pale (I think this is more an issue with gals) or too dark. You have to be part of a poltiical affiliation. You can't do certain things, I've heard Robin Williams rail against this, "White people can't ________." Like if you want to go dancing or whatever. Tracking your ancestry may be impossible. If you happen to like a song and you have good tweeters in your car and you crank it up, someone will look at you and think "Makes sense" whereas for me it's "That guy's rock music is blowing out my eardrums." You need to be a scholar on how to be successful and when blacks ask about white stuff you need to have an informative answer."

    What do you think of that?
    To be honest, I've never experienced any of these things. When did Robin Williams say white people can't do certain things? A few of my white friends went to clubs to get girls, one of my best friends found his (hispanic) wife there. I don't like clubs, but I wouldn't feel pressured against it or whatever. I don't have tweeters in my truck and I have indeed been planning on upgrading my sound system, but I have never ever felt any criticism/racial stereotyping for blasting my music. Which I do btw. If The Ocean by Zep comes on then god help my eardrums.

    I think I would feel a bit of pressure from 1 cousin of mine if I ended up with a black gal, but he can eat a dick if that's the case. I think 50years ago, this would've been more of an issue but where I live in Jax it's very multi cultural.

    The only pressure I feel is that I can't criticize or make an observation of a black person without being crucified. Like the no tipping thing at the bar. People want to call bs on that but I would put money on it. Come with me to the pool hall and when a black person tips upon checkout I give you $5, if said person doesn't tip you give me $5. You will go broke. I feel like the eyes are on me now just for making this observation. A hot iron with the word 'racist' is being readied to brand my forehead. Yet it's just an observation. I mean no harm.

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)
    Thank for the convo, man.
    Absolutely, and right back at ya!

    EDIT: While this is an interesting dialogue, and does touch on things that I want to learn about, I inadvertently turned this into a racism thing when I was more curious about the concept of white privilege.

    I could've gotten more to the point if I simply asked you if you believed in white privilege, and how would you describe it?
    Last edited by Strat; 4th December 2019 at 08:36.
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  7. Link to Post #324
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)

    So ... do y'all believe that black folks across the world will enslave, murder, rape and experiment on white people, if the tables were turned?

    About as many, As the whites or yellows or red would.
    Under the colors of our skins each and every one of us is capable of humanities best and worst.


    I do suspect that if the tables were turned. whites would call out racism the same as blacks do now, And after the dust settled many a black person would feel ill at ease when racism becomes an excuse to call out the so the called privileged whomever is the current ruling color on perceived racism where none was intended and feel .offended by their own perception, same as is happening a lot lately.





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  9. Link to Post #325
    Netherlands Avalon Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)

    All of these comments speak to a range of thoughts that fall within a well-defined context shared by folks of white skin at cultural, national and international levels. The "individual" thought and behavior intended to show solidary is, in fact, showing collusion with the system and cultural complex that is apparently sub-conscious.

    Secondly, such comments are indeed indicative of belonging, of being in the same club as others like you, even if that means there are rooms in that club you don't like to go to, you're still in the general vicinity. White people not doing the work to move beyond it see the world a certain way and in particular see black and brown folks in a certain way which invariably extends to consideration and treatment of said folk. In the same fashion, I am lumped in with gangbangers, drug dealers and professional athletes in the eyes of someone who doesn't know me. I share a sub-culture with them (Hip Hop), I sometimes dress approximately similar (hoodies, high tops, boots), etc.

    These clubs are very real and even when we are hanging out of the window looking forward at a new world, some part of ourselves is still adjacent to those other rooms, attitudes and beliefs. At least, we recognize and are familiar with them and their ways by association. This is not guilt by association, it is just club membership. Most people treat folks as individuals in one-on-one interactions. As that number increases though, as the other members of the club coalesce, something happens to that interaction, invariably.

    Is an "involuntairy" club membership such a bad thing per se?
    When I say I thing people get way too offended these days it is exactly that they deny the very club they belong to. Sure as human beings we are all one, But within this realm of existence we do belong to a specific gender, a skin color, a social layer. And even though as individuals we may believe we are not defined by such trivial differences in our humanity they do give us some sense of who or what we are as we try to grow up and start noticing how these differences shape the way we act, behave and feel about ourselves and the clubs that are familiar to us.


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  11. Link to Post #326
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    Default Re: Racism

    Who benefits from racism? Think about it. One could say the racist group that makes the other group(s) wrong or inferior. Then again has a victim ever blamed anyone for an advantage?

    Who benefits from racism? Well from my viewpoint it is a person or group that likes to leave mankind divided. That is usually done to keep and assume power and control.

    An interesting part of history was mentioned by David Icke on a segment of Infowars.com today. He brought up an interesting point about a satanic cult that spawned from the Jews, than infected Islam, then Christianity, and the West. Keeping people divided by race is just one part of the agenda. The end product is no more humans on this planet. It won't really matter what race you are.
    https://banned.video/watch?id=5de7054d4e3b00001cd3545d

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  13. Link to Post #327
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by James Newell (here)
    An interesting part of history was mentioned by David Icke on a segment of Infowars.com today. He brought up an interesting point about a satanic cult that spawned from the Jews, than infected Islam, then Christianity, and the West. Keeping people divided by race is just one part of the agenda.

    Or by belief system of course.
    Any which way to divide is serving the cause. whether Icke's or those in power.
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  15. Link to Post #328
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)
    So ... do y'all believe that black folks across the world will enslave, murder, rape and experiment on white people, if the tables were turned?
    The phrasing of the question is somewhat throwing me off but assuming you mean that if it were blacks that took over the world (a la Guns Germs and Steel route) would they enslave whites assuming they had the ability then I assume so. I think this goes with all cultures.

    If you mean blacks become the majority, would they suddenly start enslaving whites? Then absolutely not. Times have changed kinda thing. I don't think people have it in them. Well some do but those are like the 1%, ya know, Epstein like folks. I don't necessarily mean wealth but sick in the head.

    Bit of a change of topic here:

    Do you have any recommended reading for early black history in America? As to the date I'm not sure, but I'm thinking pre 1900s. I'm going to read Uncle Tom's Cabin probably next week. I never got around to it and I just finished HBS's Palmetto Leaves, I never knew she lived like 5min from where I work.

    Anyway, I ask cause I'm interested in little cultural tidbits. Like why/how did blacks become so fervently Christian? I would think a Voodoo tradition would be carried over. In the book I just mentioned, she (HBS) says this: "Here, then, they all settled down; and finding, accidentally, that a small central lot was not enclosed in any of the allotments, they took it as an indication that there was to be their church, and accordingly erected there a prayer-booth, where they could hold those weekly prayer-meetings which often seem with the negroes to take the place of all other recreations."

    This book is more of a love letter to the Florida outdoors, written in 1872. Still, it made me think that even in movies you do often see blacks erecting their own church and praying to God just as much as other Christians.

    Like I said earlier, that's just an interesting 'tidbit' and I'd like to know more. So if you know of any books that have similar information I'd definitely like to know. I plan on getting Michael Twitty's book 'The Cooking Gene'. Heard of it? I'm looking forward to that read.

    Oh, and I wanted to promote this guy's youtube channel. It's interesting to hear his perspective on things. From his about page: "Search for Uhuru is a platform which was created to bridge the gap between the Diaspora and Africa."
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SearchforUhuru/featured
    Last edited by Strat; 4th December 2019 at 09:19.
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  17. Link to Post #329
    United States Avalon Member Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    To be honest, I've never experienced any of these things. When did Robin Williams say white people can't do certain things?
    You may not have, but others have. I just pulled a comedian out of my hat as an example. It could be any of a number of comedians.

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    A few of my white friends went to clubs to get girls, one of my best friends found his (hispanic) wife there. I don't like clubs, but I wouldn't feel pressured against it or whatever. I don't have tweeters in my truck and I have indeed been planning on upgrading my sound system, but I have never ever felt any criticism/racial stereotyping for blasting my music. Which I do btw. If The Ocean by Zep comes on then god help my eardrums.

    I think I would feel a bit of pressure from 1 cousin of mine if I ended up with a black gal, but he can eat a dick if that's the case. I think 50years ago, this would've been more of an issue but where I live in Jax it's very multi cultural.
    Ok, this is kind of a case in point. You're taking everything I said as talking about you personally. Individually. When I was making blanket statements. Generalizations. There are always, always, exceptions. It's ok, but this is the problem, writ large. If I'm in a group and people start to talk in generalizations about black people, or tall people, or Vets, since I have experience in those groups I will probably have something to say too. In some sense, a lot of this seems unavoidable just because of how we are as people. So this conversation is a never-ending one. And we will always have individualized examples of how something is not so in general because it is not so for me individually.

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    The only pressure I feel is that I can't criticize or make an observation of a black person without being crucified. Like the no tipping thing at the bar. People want to call bs on that but I would put money on it. Come with me to the pool hall and when a black person tips upon checkout I give you $5, if said person doesn't tip you give me $5. You will go broke. I feel like the eyes are on me now just for making this observation. A hot iron with the word 'racist' is being readied to brand my forehead. Yet it's just an observation. I mean no harm.
    I'm a good tipper. Just like you have never experienced any of the things in my examples. There may be some truth to the reality that a lot of poor people don't tip. A lot of poor people just so happen to be minorities. Multigenerational poverty implants some ways of being. I'll bet if you check that truism across racial lines, you would find a lot of poor indigenous and white folks don't tip well either. The great thing about generalizations is that they are contextually true to a certain extent, but never always and particularly true to every person within the group. Which is true of majority American and minority populations as well as people in nations across the planet.

    No harm taken.

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    United States Avalon Member Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    EDIT: While this is an interesting dialogue, and does touch on things that I want to learn about, I inadvertently turned this into a racism thing when I was more curious about the concept of white privilege.

    I could've gotten more to the point if I simply asked you if you believed in white privilege, and how would you describe it?
    What they call white privilege is the intergenerational culture of in-group benefit, which happens in all cultures where there are majority and minority groups. Here in the USA and in other nations, even in Europe where darker-skinned populations are relatively new (in this era, ALL of Europe was originally populated with dark-skinned Homo Sapiens), the minority groups face the stigma of darker skin in the context of over 100 years of direct and indirect pseudo-scientific categorizations of dehumanization. I would argue that there are subliminal and subconscious imperatives that ALL residents of these nations possess that reinforce these understands across generations so that now, in these days, when tests like the Harvard implicit bias test are taken, even those minorities who are considered to be inferior test positively for belief in their inherent inferiority.

    Since that is the case, white privilege is particularly seditious, because the people who want to help others improve their lot in life possess these beliefs as do those whose lot is desirous of improvement!

    It is a Machiavellian situation we face and live.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    About as many, As the whites or yellows or red would.
    Under the colors of our skins each and every one of us is capable of humanities best and worst.
    I believe that is true, all people are capable of everything.

    But I don't believe that, given our global history, if power shifted from caucasian control in the USA and the global community to melanated populations, that retribution would be taken in the form of enslavement and genocide of white people. That could happen at the individual level, but not at the collective. There are a lot of angry people on all sides.


    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    I do suspect that if the tables were turned. whites would call out racism the same as blacks do now, And after the dust settled many a black person would feel ill at ease when racism becomes an excuse to call out the so the called privileged whomever is the current ruling color on perceived racism where none was intended and feel .offended by their own perception, same as is happening a lot lately.
    Agreed. I hesitate to agree that the situations would be exactly reversed, though, because the nature of African civilizations has been different, historically and culturally, than European civilizations.

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    Is an "involuntairy" club membership such a bad thing per se?
    I wouldn't say so. I do not place value judgments on things that we can't help.

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    When I say I thing people get way too offended these days it is exactly that they deny the very club they belong to. Sure as human beings we are all one, But within this realm of existence we do belong to a specific gender, a skin color, a social layer. And even though as individuals we may believe we are not defined by such trivial differences in our humanity they do give us some sense of who or what we are as we try to grow up and start noticing how these differences shape the way we act, behave and feel about ourselves and the clubs that are familiar to us.
    Agreed without qualification. And, there are soooo many ways that we transcend these clubs and blend over into other clubs, that there are possibilities to belong and connect in ways that transcend our skin color and familial/genetic history. I believe it will only become moreso as these essential classifications become obscured beneath the increasing codification of belonging that world cultures and sub-cultures are experiencing now. So many sub-groups, so many ways to be a part of something with others that may not look like you or even come from the same culture. It is happening every minute of every day online and off. The change are happening with the youth to such an extent now that most of us who do not deal with the kids have no idea what is going on or who they are, really.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by James Newell (here)
    An interesting part of history was mentioned by David Icke on a segment of Infowars.com today. He brought up an interesting point about a satanic cult that spawned from the Jews, than infected Islam, then Christianity, and the West. Keeping people divided by race is just one part of the agenda. The end product is no more humans on this planet. It won't really matter what race you are.
    Not a fan of the use of the word, "infected" to describe what could be termed cultural diffusion more accurately. I don't know when, where or how it started but I do know what its results are for the world. I also know that anyone in the world in any group could claim victim status. All people, groups, are aggrieved in some way, shape or form.

    The superiority complex that comes from applied intergenerational racism, though, is a very specific form of victimization which leaves both those who practice it and those who it is practiced upon victims. Those who practice racism internalize forms of sociopathy, exemplified by a lack of compassion, dehumanization and separation from other members of the human family. This could be considered to be a result of whatever conspiracy you are talking about, but its effect upon everyday people is very real and impacts the very nature of the soul. Perhaps it can be posited that this is a way to make large groups of people more like the controllers, those who, by their nature, are separate and consider themselves better than and above all other people no matter what they look like or where they come from.

    Those whom racism is practiced upon experience lowered self-esteem, stress from living in an environment which is constantly antagonistic, lower life-spans, more health problems, etc. These outcomes, for both populations, are life-denying and are perhaps also epigenetic in nature, affecting populations at the level of gene expression as environmental choices set in across generations. This perhaps means, psychopathy and empathy can be selected for based upon the experiences and lifestyles of one's ancestors.

    Perhaps, the divisions we see because of racism are created for this very purpose. After all, elites always require people to serve them. Why not create a large group of people who will do your dirty work for you by attempting to eliminate populations they don't want in the world they wish to create? Shock Troops of the Apocalypse, you might say. People who have been subjected to trauma generation after generation after generation.

    After all, race as a biological/political/cultural category was created in the United States in the 1600s amongst a mixture of different global populations that then coalesced in the colonies, and after the rebellions in which Irish, Africans and other indentured and poor folk rose up against the burgeoning agricultural/industrial machine. They began offering the Irish and other European-descended folk jobs on the Slave Patrol which would become the police in a later era, as Overseers, they gave away land and other "privileges" to separate these poor populations by race. Populations that had every economic reason to unite against the will of the controller population, those who sought to consolidate wealth and power at the highest echelons of society, as has been done in every pyramidal society that has ever been.

    400 years, for those whose families have been in the USA that long, of having to "pretend" that you are better than other families of humanity. Perhaps, at this point, for those affected by these ways of life, it is no longer pretending, it is an inherent understanding that is as natural as breathing.

    It has been a very effective strategy. As now, it has become nigh sub-conscious. And these are very shocking potentialities if they are so. Epigenetics is reminiscent of the social Darwinism of past generations and we must be careful about the kinds of conclusions we come to. The research remains pending, as doing this type of work on humans is very controversial. And do we, really, want to know the answer?
    Last edited by Rahkyt; 4th December 2019 at 20:25. Reason: text addition

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    Default Re: Racism

    If you think you are a body and the color makes a big difference than you got skin in the game of make wrong.
    If you know you are a spirit that has a body a lot of this racial difference thing is a belly laugh.

    It comes down to que bono(who benefits)? The elite of the planet make their bread and butter on creating differences among mankind. If the vast majority woke up we would know who to really put our attention on to handle.
    Last edited by James Newell; 4th December 2019 at 17:57.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote So ... do y'all believe that black folks across the world will enslave, murder, rape and experiment on white people, if the tables were turned?
    In fact, I do, and history supports my view. Like in South Africa today, for one. Although they are just revisiting an insult delivered to them centuries earlier.

    The indoctrinated racist attitude is not only reserved for visible minorities, however. It is equally applied to any distinctive feature of an individual that the majority has taken a dislike to. For example, intelligence on the school ground is reason enough for denigration. Or beauty. Or ugliness. Or physical deformity. Or any particularly frowned upon beliefs. Or wealth. Or lack of wealth. Color of one's car. Address. Friends. Politics. Religion. Any and all minor differences can be and are employed to mark the current distinction between an out-group and the in-group...

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by James Newell (here)
    If you think you are a body and the color makes a big difference than you got skin in the game of make wrong.
    If you know you are a spirit that has a body a lot of this racial difference thing is a belly laugh.
    You are absolutely right. This is the "game" we play. Many believe they are a body. And the rest of us have to live with them and not tell, but show differently, even if that makes no perceptible difference. There is no agreement for a new way of being human in this world, currently. But there will be. Some are able to, truly, laugh at that reality. But most are not.


    Quote Posted by James Newell (here)
    It comes down to que bono(who benefits)? The elite of the planet make their bread and butter on creating differences among mankind. If the vast majority woke up we would know who to really put our attention on to handle.

    Benefit passes down through many layers.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    In fact, I do, and history supports my view. Like in South Africa today, for one. Although they are just revisiting an insult delivered to them centuries earlier.
    Your argument is invalid because whites in South Africa as a group are not being subjected to the same strictures and experiences that blacks were subjected to for hundreds of years. Nowhere near it.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    The indoctrinated racist attitude is not only reserved for visible minorities, however. It is equally applied to any distinctive feature of an individual that the majority has taken a dislike to. For example, intelligence on the school ground is reason enough for denigration. Or beauty. Or ugliness. Or physical deformity. Or any particularly frowned upon beliefs. Or wealth. Or lack of wealth. Color of one's car. Address. Friends. Politics. Religion. Any and all minor differences can be and are employed to mark the current distinction between an out-group and the in-group...
    Sure. This is more than just in-group out-group dynamics. More than culture. The psychology of race has proven that over quite a long time.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Slave comes from the root slav which is that area North of Greece and Turkey. So the whites up there were choice meat for the slave block for many centuries. The Roman and Arab slavers were very predominate in enslaving the Slavs and the blacks before and after Mohammand. The Arabs are still openly active slavers in Libya.

    Black tribes in Africa regularly enslaved other tribes for Thousands of years. Romans enslaved the Brits, the French enslaved the Arabs and on and on.

    The Spaniards enslaved most of South and Central America. Their deeds done to the Indians were horrific.

    Seems the Jews were big slavers and brought many hundreds of thousands of blacks to the Americas for several hundred years. That seems to be conveniently forgotten. Seems big money was made on this human trafficking aberration. And still is.

    The various American Indigenous tribes enslaved each other regularly. Who had the better army were the slavers.

    I guess the point here is this racist thing is a good justifier( an excuse for doing wrong) to treat your fellow man less than a dog. You can do just about anything to another if you make him less.

    How to handle all this: A good place to start is try to treat others as you would like to be treated.

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    Default Re: Racism

    I don't agree with everything this article says, particularly the part about banning certain forms of speech, but I think it forwards the discussion in some other aspects. The discussion itself is where the importance of conversation is, the back and forth when that back and forth is productive and not skewed by cultural conditioning, which is often the downfall of scientific research and has been historically. The possibilitiy of achieving true objectivity is another question worth asking these days, whether science can or cannot move beyond its mooring in cultural norms.

    Can science rise beyond the cultures that practice it? When we study each other and ourselves, can the interpretation of incomplete data refrain from drawing conclusions that don't reflect the lived reality of those being studied? Or must science always be denigrated to the level of serving political ends that eventually end up being non life-oriented and reductive in nature rather than expansive and life affirming?

    How Can We Curb the Spread of Scientific Racism?
    A new book examines the insidious effects of scientific investigations into race

    By John Horgan on October 17, 2019



    A dozen years ago I flew to Europe to speak at a conference on science’s limits. The meeting’s organizer greeted me with a tirade about James Watson, co-discoverer of the double helix, who had just stated publicly that blacks are less intelligent than whites. “All our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours,” Watson told a journalist, “whereas all the testing says not really.”

    At first I thought my host, a world-famous intellectual whose work I admired, was condemning Watson. But no, he was condemning Watson’s critics, whom he saw as cowards attacking a courageous truth-teller. I wish I could say I was shocked by my host’s rant, but I have had many encounters like this over the decades. Just as scientists and other intellectuals often reveal in private that they believe in the paranormal, so many disclose that they believe in the innate inferiority of certain groups.

    That 2007 incident came back to me as I read Superior: The Return of Race Science by British journalist Angela Saini (who is coming to my school Nov. 4, see Postscript). Superior is a thoroughly researched, brilliantly written and deeply disturbing book. It is an apt follow-up to Saini’s previous book, Inferior, which explores sexism in science (and which I wrote about here and here). Saini calls “intellectual racism” the “toxic little seed at the heart of academia. However dead you might think it is, it needs only a little water, and now it’s raining.”


    Angela Saini. Credit: Henrietta Garden

    Saini argues that racism is implicit within the concept of race. “Race is at its heart the belief that we are born different, deep inside our bodies, perhaps even in character and intellect, as well as outward appearance,” she writes. “It’s the notion that groups of people have certain innate qualities” that can “define the passage of progress, the success and failure of the nations our ancestors came from.” Yes, that’s what Watson was saying.

    Like sexism, racism is a personal topic for Saini, who is of Indian descent. Growing up in London, she endured abuse from white children, who hurled insults and stones at her and her sister. Racism is hardly unique to white westerners, she acknowledges. Indians, after all, have long engaged in discrimination against each other, as reflected in their notorious caste system. “Every society that happens to be dominant comes to think of itself as the best, deep down,” Saini comments.

    But scientific racism--an oxymoron if ever there was one--is a relatively recent, localized phenomenon. It emerged in Europe during the so-called Enlightenment and accelerated after the publication of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species. “It is no accident that modern ideas of race were formed during the height of European colonialism,” Saini writes, “when those in power had already decided on their own superiority.”

    “The Negroes of Africa have by nature no feeling that rises above the trifling.” That was Kant. Darwin came from a family of abolitionists and was progressive for his era. He nonetheless believed, as Saini puts it, that “men were above women, and white races were above all others.” Thomas Henry Huxley, Darwin’s bulldog, supported abolition but said, “The highest reaches in the hierarchy of civilization will assuredly not be within the reach of our dusky cousins.”

    White, male Europeans used race science—embodied in ideologies such as social Darwinism and eugenics--to justify their nations’ conquest, enslavement and extermination of non-white people. Given this appalling history, one would think scientific racism would have vanished long ago. And after World War II it did go underground, for a while. The association of the Nazis with scientific racism complicated its marketing.

    Race science has nonetheless recently re-emerged, heartening white supremacists, neo-Nazis and other bigots. Saini shows how wealthy benefactors and organizations such as the Pioneer Fund, founded in the 1930s to promote “race betterment,” have enabled this resurgence. They fund and help disseminate research—via journals such as Mankind Quarterly and websites such as Unz Review--that supposedly establishes the innate inferiority of certain races.

    Those who espouse this ideology call themselves “race realists.” They insist that racial injustice and inequality “isn’t injustice or inequality at all,” Saini explains. “It’s there because the racial hierarchy is real.” Race realists claim that “they are challenging the politically correct wider world by standing up for good science and that those who oppose them are irrational science deniers.”

    Race, as Saini shows, has always been an arbitrary way to categorize people, motivated primarily by political rather than scientific goals. Yes, some genetic markers and heritable diseases, like sickle cell anemia, tend to be associated with certain populations, a fact exploited by 23andMe and Ancestry.com and by scientists tracing human evolution. But numerous studies have revealed that there is far more genetic variation within than between races, however they are defined. A 2002 study found that 93-95 percent of the genetic variation occurs within rather than between geographically distinct populations.

    Given this enormous variability, it is absurd to make gross generalizations, as racists do, about the character and capabilities of certain groups. “The racial categories we are used to seeing on census forms don’t map onto the true picture of human variation,” Saini writes. She herself can be categorized as black, brown or Caucasian. The concept of race “is useless, pernicious nonsense,” geneticist Mark Thomas tells her.

    Not all research on race is overtly racist. In fact, many scientists doing race-related research claim that their aim is to help targets of racism. But Saini notes that even well-intentioned race science may be poorly conceived. In 2003 anthropologist Duana Fullwiley asked researchers doing race-related medical studies to define race. “None of them could answer her question confidently or clearly,” Saini says. Race-based research, she fears, can end up subtly reinforcing racist conclusions.

    For example, researchers have long sought a biological basis for African-Americans’ relatively high rates of hypertension, which is associated with higher rates of heart disease, stroke and death. I had assumed this to be a case in which race science could be beneficial, because it could lead to improved medical treatments for blacks. But Saini presents evidence that environmental factors—including stress and poverty resulting from discrimination—are the primary causes of African-Americans’ elevated hypertension. Rural Africans, she points out, have low levels of hypertension.

    The claim that black Americans’ hypertension stems from their genes “lays the blame for inequality at the feet of biology,” Saini writes. “If poor health today is intrinsic to black bodies and has nothing to do with racism, it’s not anyone’s fault.” Ironically, in the slavery era, scholars justified harsh treatment of blacks by claiming that they were hardier and less sensitive to pain than whites. (These myths persist among medical students, the New York Times recently reported.)

    Saini also worries about the insidious effects of identity politics and of ancestry testing, which has “helped reinforce the idea that race is real.” “Have pride in where you live or where your ancestors come from if you like,” she says, but “don’t be sucked into believing that you are so different from others that your rights have more value.”

    Saini seems to envision a world in which race really does not matter, in which individuals are judged, as Martin Luther King put it, by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. But race poses a paradox. Race should not matter, and yet it does, profoundly, as long as racism endures. As the case of black hypertension shows, race might not be a legitimate biological category, but in a racist society it has measurable biological as well as social consequences.

    Superior left me pondering hard questions: Can scientists study race in a way that doesn’t exacerbate racism? Or does all such research, no matter how well-intentioned, subtly reinforce the idea that an individual’s race matters? If scientists do research with the explicit goal of countering racism, are they really scientists, or are they social activists? Finally, can we take pride in our ethnic heritage without being racist?

    Superior provides a foundation for discussion of these urgent issues. Saini’s work won’t have any impact on social-injustice warriors, who are beyond moral or rational appeals. “Race realists” have viciously attacked her, as she disclosed in her recent Scientific American column “The Internet Is a Cesspool of Racist Pseudoscience.” (For a similar view, see this New York Times essay, “Racists Are Recruiting. Watch Your White Sons.”)

    But I believe, and hope, that Superior will provoke others, including progressives, to re-evaluate their attitudes toward race. She has certainly made me re-evaluate my views. I now see research on racial differences in an even more negative light than I once did, which I didn’t think was possible. As long as racism still infects our societies, it confounds attempts to disentangle the relative contributions of genes and environment to racial inequality.

    I once suggested that, given the harm done by research on alleged cognitive differences between races, it should be banned. I stand by that proposal. I also agree with Saini that online media firms should do more to curb the dissemination of racist pseudoscience. “This is not a free speech issue,” she writes in Scientific American, “it’s about improving the quality and accuracy of information that people see online, and thereby creating a fairer, kinder society.”
    Last edited by Rahkyt; 12th December 2019 at 17:45.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Rahkyt,

    Thanks for that. Want to also add that Ancestry.com is an outfit that has strong ties to Mormons. And Mormons, regardless of what any individual will tell you, were overtly racist in the past and likely covertly so today. That's not exclusive to that religion.

    I have had some astounding online conversations with very well educated white academics about racial issues in the U.S. For example, Ferguson Missouri riots. The media report on the few weeks of rioting and neglect to inform their viewers about the immediate history of race relations in the town (and many others like it) and forget about the deep history about the region. They won't touch that with a ten foot pole. Dude had no clue about private prisons and slave labor either.

    And the alternative right media, like Breibart, surely won't fill that void with their war on "the politically correct" which subsumes many legitimate political racial concerns under the same umbrella as the most extreme nutty causes.

    People are so being played, regardless of ethnicity, skin color, etc...

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    And the alternative right media, like Breibart, surely won't fill that void with their war on "the politically correct" which subsumes many legitimate political racial concerns under the same umbrella as the most extreme nutty causes.

    People are so being played, regardless of ethnicity, skin color, etc...
    As is always the case isn't it, people getting played seems like a large part of the human story in general in this Age, at least. The Right does obscure some things just as the Left over-dramatizes others. The media, which is also politics, is really bad about that. Now that I am in the political arena, I see that up close and firsthand. People have assumed I am a Progressive since I ran for office, but I have some views that are waaaaaay beyond any political category as y'all know. I've been and am being attacked on the Left almost as much as I have been on the Right. Such is life when you don't fit in anybody's boxes.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Rahkyt for President!

    all aboard

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