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  1. Link to Post #381
    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Engaging the same theme as above, in 2008 the discovery of these fossils led to another evocation of LOTR and the idea of a multiplicity of human types coexisting in the same time-frame. Given such diverse origins, and in relation to our topic in this thread, there is some cultural evidence for stark differences between people, which could lead to very firm ideas and stereotypes over time and across space.



    Were “Hobbits” Human?
    Debate rages over an Indonesian fossil find

    By Guy Gugliotta

    In 2003, researchers excavating a limestone cave on the remote Indonesian island of Flores made an extraordinary discovery: the 18,000-year-old bones of a woman whose skull was less than one-third the size of our own.

    Modern humans were already living throughout the Old World during her time—yet she was physically very different from them. The researchers, led by paleoanthropologist Peter Brown and archaeologist Michael Morwood, both of Australia's University of New England, concluded that the woman represented a previously undiscovered species of archaic human that had survived for thousands of years after the Neanderthals had died out.

    They named her Homo floresiensis and nicknamed her the "Hobbit," after the diminutive villagers from J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy. The team has since recovered bones from as many as nine such people, all about a yard tall, the most recent of whom lived about 12,000 years ago.

    The Hobbits of Flores created an uproar among anthropologists, causing them to question assumptions about evolution and human origins that had held sway for more than half a century. Some agree that the "Hobbits" are a distinct species. But others, such as anthropologist Robert Martin of Chicago's Field Museum, say the bones belong to small Homo sapiens—perhaps people who suffered from microcephaly, a condition in which the brain fails to grow to normal size. Five years after the initial discovery, says Martin, "nobody's budging an inch."


    Some critics say that it would have been impossible for a hominid with a brain the size of an orange to make the sophisticated tools found at Ling Bua Cave—let alone hunt with them—and that they must have been crafted by modern humans. But supporters of the separate species hypothesis modeled the shape and structure of the Hobbit brain and say it could have made the tools.

    When Smithsonian anthropologist Matthew Tocheri and other researchers analyzed the Hobbitt wrist, they found a primitive, wedge-shaped trapezoid bone common to great apes and early hominids but not to Neanderthals and modern humans. That fits a theory that Hobbits are less closely related to Homo sapiens than to Homo erectus—the human ancestor that is thought to have died out 100,000 years ago. Morwood has found crude Homo erectus-type stone tools on Flores that may be 840,000 years old.

    The skeptics retort that disease is a more likely explanation for the wrist bones. A study this year speculated that the Flores people could have suffered from hypothyroidism, a form of cretinism found relatively frequently in modern Indonesia that, the researchers say, could also produce deformed, primitive-appearing wrists.

    Rick Potts, director of the Smithsonian's Human Origins Program, who once doubted that the Hobbits were a separate species, says he's changed his mind: "Flores was this wing in the building of human evolution that we didn't know about. There is no reason that 800,000 years of experimentation could not evolve a small but advanced brain."

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  3. Link to Post #382
    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    And then there is the NatGeo version.



    New Fossils Hint 'Hobbit' Humans Are Older Than Thought
    Teeth and bones reveal a likely ancestor of the famous tiny humans found in Indonesia.

    BY ADAM HOFFMAN

    FOR THE PAST decade, a fossil human relative about the size of a toddler has loomed large in the story of our evolutionary history. This mysterious creature—found on the Indonesian island of Flores—has sparked a heated debate about its origins, including questions over its classification as a unique species.

    But now, a scattering of teeth and bone may at last unlock the mystery of the “hobbits,” also known as Homo floresiensis.

    The 700,000-year-old human remains are the first found outside Liang Bua cave, the site on Flores that yielded the original hobbit fossils. The much older samples show intriguing similarities to H. floresiensis, including their small size, and so provide the best evidence yet of a potential hobbit ancestor.

    “Since the hobbit was found, there have been two major hypotheses concerning its ancestry,” says Gerritt van den Bergh, an archaeologist at the University of Wollongong in Australia and a contributor to the work.

    According to one theory, H. floresiensis is a dwarfed form of Homo erectus, an ancient human relative that lived in East Asia and parts of Africa until about 143,000 years ago. But other researchers think the hobbits evolved from even earlier, smaller-bodied hominins such as Homo habilis or Australopithecus.

    “These new findings suggest that Homo floresiensis is indeed a dwarfed form of Homo erectus from Java, a small group of which must have gotten marooned on Flores and evolved in isolation,” van den Bergh says.

    The fossils also dispel any lingering theories that the hobbits were a form of diseased Homo sapiens, with smaller heads and statures due to developmental conditions such as Down syndrome or microcephaly, the birth defect linked to the modern Zika outbreak.

    Second Site
    Archaeologists found the first hobbit fossils while excavating Liang Bua cave in 2003. The ancient human relative stood about 3.5 feet (1.1 meters) tall and weighed around 75 pounds (35 kilograms)—and yet it was a full-grown adult.

    Further work at Liang Bua cave revealed that the hobbits made stone tools and may have had similarly handy neighbors on the island of Sulawesi. But without any additional remains, their evolutionary history has been shrouded in mystery.

    The latest excavation site, called Mata Menge, is located in the So’a Basin of central Flores, approximately 46 miles (74 kilometers) southeast of Liang Bua.

    Since 2010, the team has found thousands of stone tools as well as the fossils of small elephants, giant rats, komodo dragons, and crocodiles. When they expanded their excavation in 2014, the team at last unearthed hominin skeletal remains, including a jaw fragment, six teeth, and a small piece of cranial bone.

    “Initially, we thought we were dealing with a juvenile mandible, because it was so tiny—even smaller than the Homo floresiensis mandibles,” says van den Bergh. “But after a CT scan, we were surprised to see that the root cavity was fully developed, indicating that it was an adult specimen.”

    Shocking Age
    While four of the teeth came from the same adult as the jaw fragment, a closer inspection revealed that the remaining two were “milk teeth,” each belonging to a separate infant. The team then used statistical techniques to compare the jaw and teeth bones with corresponding fossils in other species such as H. habilis, H. erectus, and the original H. floresiensis.

    Their analysis, published today in Nature, indicates that the Mata Menge fossils most closely resemble H. erectus, though they are considerably smaller in size, and they have many common structural features with H. floresiensis.

    “The fossils are very similar, but the Mata Menge fossils are slightly more primitive compared to H. floresiensis from Liang Bua,” writes Yousuke Kaifu, an archaeologist at the National Museum of Nature and Science in Tokyo, Japan, and lead author of the study.

    To determine the age of the fossils, another research team took samples of the surrounding sediment layers and used a highly precise dating technique called argon-argon dating, which measures the decay of radioactive argon over time. They also isolated a tooth fragment and used a combination of dating methods based on the decay of uranium.

    Their results, also published today in Nature, show that these fossils are about 700,000 years old—making them the oldest hominins to be found on the island.

    “I kind of expected this, but was shocked when I first saw the fossils and realized the fact that such small people were around as early as 700,000 years ago, when large-bodied Homo erectus were around on the continental parts of Asia,” writes Kaifu.

    Ancestral Bones
    Although the archaeologists can’t yet be certain that the older hominin remains belong to the same species as H. floresiensis, the analysis suggests that the Mata Menge dwellers are the hobbits’ likely ancestors. This categorization is further supported by the stone tools from Mata Menge, which bear a striking resemblance to those found at the Liang Bua site.

    The authors note that other stone tools have been found on Flores dating back as early as one million years ago, around the same time H. erectus was living on nearby Java.

    Combining all the evidence, a chronology begins to unfold in which H. erectus settled on Flores and then shrank to the hobbit size seen at Mata Menge and Liang Bua.

    “I think that they’ve provided very good evidence for why it has some characteristics that are suggestive of Homo floresiensis, and that Homo erectus was the likely ancestor coming from Southeast Asia,” says Rick Potts, director of the Smithsonian Institution’s Human Origins Program at the National Museum of Natural History.

    Some skeptics may contend that 300,000 years is an unreasonably small window for Homo erectus to reduce itself to hobbit size.

    But while there’s no other indication of such rapid changes in our hominin ancestors, Potts says there are recorded case studies of other mammals that have become small quickly in response to limited resources or a lack of predation on an island—a process known as island dwarfing. For example, the red deer on the island of Jersey shrank to one-sixth of its original size over just 6,000 years.

    As the team continues to excavate Mata Menge, they hope to find more skeletal remains that could provide a more robust description of these human relatives, as well as older fossils that might help connect the developmental dots and form a coherent time line for this strange branch on our evolutionary tree.

    “I think of Flores as being its own little laboratory of human evolution that will ultimately allow us to understand how the body evolved in response to environmental stresses,” says Potts. “It may take years to develop, but I think it’s a tremendous opportunity.”

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    When I really look deep at any life form I always marvel at the genius of the intelligence that created it. But I have never attributed the life form types to a source creator. Since childhood I have fantasized about what sort of being could have come up with all these forms. And I have never considered these life forms to be accidental either. They were designed by a group of intelligent beings long, long ago.

    The source creator created life, the one and only life, without form but fully functional. The forms were added later. Then this life was organized and toyed with; beings of great talent then explored all the various forms that could support it. And when they were done they recorded their inventions in a molecule that could hold the basic templates: DNA.

    It is impossible for the DNA molecule to spontaneously happen by chance, not in a million billion times the age of the universe. It is so obviously engineered that its function, if we could understand it, would uncover secrets of the true workings of the universe, and perhaps even reveal the identity of what we would or will eventually call the progenitor race.

    An Ancient Race whose art is the life forms of today.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    An Ancient Race whose art is the life forms of today.


    Real talk.

    I don't find the nascent science of our times to be inimical to this idea at all. And I do see these differences, that are ancient in nature, as probably a part of our cultural evolutionary history as well, as disparate ideals of supremacy come from in-group and out-group dynamics, which lead to the formation of societal institutions and mores that support the cohesion of the group.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    If we intuitively understand the true dynamics at work, but that is at odds with the scientific interpretation, then how can complication and convolution add to our comprehension? Put another way, if we don't have the right fundamentals, the right foundation, how can we build a sound understanding of what is our true history or the way forward to a healthy future?

    Science talks about DNA as if they understand it, but they do not. Even with the correlations between this gene and that expression, these are only surface features of something far more intricate and deep. DNA, as we understand it today merely codes for the hundred or so proteins. But a protein is not alive. So where does the life part get coded in?

    I guess that's more than one question, isn't it?

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    I'm cross posting this video from my Evergreen thread at the request of Bill, who along with myself is curious to get Mark's reaction to it (and anyone else's for that matter!).

    It's about 2 and a half hour long, but well worth every second. The time goes by fast - it's fascinating.

    For those that aren't familiar with the events that took place in 2017 on the Evergreen campus, it goes like this in a nutshell:

    The day of absence, as it's called, is an Evergreen tradition where the black staff and faculty willingly stay off campus for a day (i think it's just a day?) to emphasize their contributions to the school.

    The problem arose when it was required for whites to stay off campus. A professor, Bret Weinstein, took issue with the requirement of whites to stay off the campus vis a vis the free-will decision of blacks to stay away. The madness that follows has to be seen to be believed.


    Last edited by Mike; 18th February 2020 at 17:01.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Hey. Thanks for sharing. I'm about an hour into it. Here is an interesting series of interchanges so far:

    Quote The professor says its a reaction to the real inequities that are experienced in the outside world. 48:00. Rogan calls it misdirected. The professor says the colleges can't defend themselves. Rogan says it is happening to colleges all over the country and its pretty unprecedented. "Ideological mobs" have been operationalized, stemming from Postmodernism which has led to what the professor called absurdities.
    The professor then calls this phenomenon, "The Postmodern Bully" and states that it is so new, nobody knows what to do with it. Earlier discussion sees the professor explaining the social justice warriors as being 2 groups in 1. One, people who want equity. Two, people who want revenge.

    The professor calls this, "The Era of Peak Bull****".

    I understand his perspective because I am experiencing it now in a sense. I am engaged in criminal justice reform at the local level and the progressive activists in town are calling the conservatives intent upon keeping the system intact and retaining control more reliable than me as an outsider, coming in, seeking reform. It turns into upside down mirror world when ideology is in control.

    I understand and am familiar with both sides of this equation.

    There is an issue of wanting to empower these college kids, and then there is the other side of things where you want to prepare them for the world outside of the colleges, which is a world still based upon white supremacy. The colleges are incubating false realities, where these extreme perspectives are flourishing and, because of the Age of the Internet and phones, videos and all kinds of social media posts are revealing these things to the rest of the world in ways that have never been possible before. It is like watching the sausage being made in the kitchen as they work through their ideologies and discover that they are not workable out in the real world.

    We are in an era that is brand new in this country. And people are trying to figure out how to move forward into the future seeking equitable opportunities for all people. And there will always be extremists in this situation. I remember being in college myself and being exposed to extremist views, like the 5% Nation, the Nation of Islam, the Black Moors, Hebrew Israelites, Wa****aw nation and more, all intent upon seeking separation from the "White Devil" and creating black nations or "homelands" in America.

    I, of course, knew of the NOI and Marcus Garvey based upon my being raised by parents who were civil rights activists throughout their lives, but these other groups were new to me and I studied them then and actually incorporated some of those views into my Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel, Temple of the Sky in which a world where Africa is off-limits to technology - made so by the Eloheem Anunnaki - and continent-spanning cities cover the rest of the planet, which is the final battleground for a galaxy spanning space opera that incorporates albino Illuminati princes, journeys to multiple dimensions, genetic engineering of white people, psychic powers and reincarnation.

    Growing up the way I did, on military bases around the world, I experienced a diverse surroundings from the youngest ages, which was not the case for most Americans during the 1960s, 70s and 80s. So I knew the reality of living around white people, which was very difficult back then, for those of us who integrated white spaces. I don't know if I've ever shared that here but entire classes would taunt me with racial epithets, I was chased home from school, fights on paper routes and playgrounds, adults coming after me cursing me out for stepping on their lawns walking home from school, not being allowed in my friends homes, yards or pools, ad infinitum.

    When my family lived off-base in Illinois and Oklahoma, those were the worst experiences of this type of racism. It was not at all like that on the bases in the DOD school system as racism was literally illegal and would result in loss of rank, money and potentially a career if engaged in directly. But there are many black kids who go to these colleges and this is their first experience of white people. Living with them, getting to know them as individuals, learning that people are truly people. When real knowledge trumps ideology, we see real growth. That is what ALL OF THIS will result in. For this nation as a whole.

    What these students are doing stands in counterpoint to what they see out in the world around them with the Proud Boys, the Tiki Torch crew of White Nationalists, the known biases of corporate America and the workforce and the substantial number of states where melanated skin is a very rare sight indeed which many view as hostile to diversity. It is a necessary discussion and dissection of the pros and cons, of the extremes, as is the rest of the discussion on the opposite side of the political spectrum, that this nation needs to have and that the world is experiencing by proxy.

    Ok, this was kind of rambling and I'm not sure if I have addressed what y'all were interested in discussing. Do I need to watch more or have I captured the gist of the entire video?
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 19th February 2020 at 22:15. Reason: add discussion

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Mark i know you're a busy dude so i appreciate you taking the time to watch some of the video and respond so thoughtfully.

    What troubled me wasn't that the students were in search of some form of equity, it was that they seemed to be seeking power masquerading as equity. In other words, they wanted to reverse the historical roles of blacks and whites, not create a sense of fairness. And a large group of those students were actually white!

    Hey how can I get ahold of this book of yours?

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    What troubled me wasn't that the students were in search of some form of equity, it was that they seemed to be seeking power masquerading as equity. In other words, they wanted to reverse the historical roles of blacks and whites, not create a sense of fairness. And a large group of those students were actually white!
    I did not look at the videos of the students so I was not aware of that. But I'm not surprised. I do have thoughts about it, though. First though, how did it trouble you and why, Mike?

    The Millennials and Gen-Z have grown up and are maturing in an era where multiculturalism has formed their very base perceptions of the world. Television, videos, music beginning in the 80s but intensifying in the 90s and especially the 00s have presented them with a world that does not exist, one in which it seems like the entire nation is diverse, where black and brown folks exist equitably with white folks. The commercials, the movies, the music have shaped their view of the world, not to mention having a black president for 8 years in the form of one Barack Hussein Obama. Still speaking in crass generalizations, while "they" knew that racism existed, because their youths, the late 90s and the entire 00s, were well within the era of political correctness and movements like the Tea Party and white "nationalist" organizations were seen as the extreme fanatical edge of politics, they had no idea that racism was so pervasive in this nation.

    And so, Drumpf and his election, the seemingly swelling ranks of organizations dedicated to white supremacy and nationalism, the intensifying movement proselytized by racist pamphlets and banners being placed on college campuses - which the campus in my town, Texas State University, has been at the forefront of - has awakened them to the reality that older generations have never lost sight of. That we are not in any way "post-racial" and that what some call hate and others call protecting the white race from dilution and extinction, has given rise to a pervasive fear in many that the world as they knew it is gone forever. So they want to protect what's left by building walls and passing legislation to limit immigration that further "browns and blacks" the USA. For their children, creating, in effect, a neo-apartheid form of governance and minority rule in this country. Whites as "protected class".

    But for the babies, these young college students, they feel betrayed. They have lived in a different world, a media bubble, that was popped quite abruptly.

    They believe in a different kind of world than that we currently exist in, apparently. The depths of their perceptive betrayal and the extremities of their responses, are, perhaps, exemplified - by some few - in these videos.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hey how can I get ahold of this book of yours?
    I left a link to my amazon site up in the post above.
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 20th February 2020 at 19:37. Reason: grammar

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    If we intuitively understand the true dynamics at work, but that is at odds with the scientific interpretation, then how can complication and convolution add to our comprehension? Put another way, if we don't have the right fundamentals, the right foundation, how can we build a sound understanding of what is our true history or the way forward to a healthy future?
    What do you suggest are the right fundamentals, the right foundation?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Science talks about DNA as if they understand it, but they do not. Even with the correlations between this gene and that expression, these are only surface features of something far more intricate and deep. DNA, as we understand it today merely codes for the hundred or so proteins. But a protein is not alive. So where does the life part get coded in?
    Is your understanding greater than those who spend hours a day studying genetics? I'm afraid your comments seem like a further erosion of the expertise of those who seek higher understanding by delving deep into the known science and accumulated knowledge of humankind. I agree, there are deeper understandings to be had. I also agree that there are suppressed sciences, ancient understandings of the nature of the material, psychological and spiritual aspects of the greater reality that some are aware of, but most are not. But a blanket rejection of science as we understand it sounds more like a celebration of a cult of ignorance or, worse yet, an arrogant, cultural rejection of our nascent understanding of the science of creation that does not support the advancement of Terran humankind as a species.

    And, it is a discipline in continuous progress. Growth. Addition to the wellspring of knowledge that has been accumulated across the centuries.

    I don't see where such a perspective is useful in any discussion as it is a blanket rejection of rationality based upon opinion, rather than observed knowledge.
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 20th February 2020 at 17:41.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    well it troubled me because it was disingenuous. it troubled me when the students held the school president hostage. it troubled me when they physically threatened and shouted down the opposition. it troubled me when they stalked Weinstein allies and showed up at their homes. troubled me that they weren't interested in having an honest dialogue, just furthering what eventually became an authoritarian crusade. it troubled me that they were trying to resolve racism with more racism. it troubled me that they have no regard for freedom of speech. troubled me that 2 brilliant professors were unfairly labelled racist and forced to resign from the university. was troubled when the school president told campus police to stand down when innocent lives were in danger...

    this video troubles me too:

    i was troubled by all of it basically

    I'm sorry, i'm not trying to be glib! It's just that i have to be to work in half an hour, and i don't have the damn time atm to get into this like i would like. i'd love to unpack all this with a little more nuance, and will do so as soon as i get the chance.
    Last edited by Mike; 20th February 2020 at 18:02.

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    Default Re: Racism

    As you state, I am not an expert. But the fundamentals are obvious, except to science because science has no way to approach these topics with objectivity - since they are not objective.

    The right fundamentals.

    Life is the reason for the universe.
    Love is the feeling of unity.
    Consciousness is universal.
    The base reality is not substantial.
    Life exists everywhere. By extension, intelligent life is common.

    There are five.

    I'll leave it to you to decide whether current research is valuable. All I know is that an effect of an effect is not a cause. That is all they are looking at because the truth is a sanctioned commodity in this as well as many other areas of science that comes too near the occult. It is designed to confuse and lead around and around, and away from the most profound paradigm-breaking discoveries we are not granted access to at any cost.

    At least show an interest in (I say to science in general), how, for instance, DNA responds to the morphogenic field that transports information to individuals far removed from each other. Or possibly relate spontaneous asymmetrical hereditary adjustments to some mechanism of DNA. Either and many more would open the door to true 'science' that could help all of us advance our knowledge. These 'marker' games are for patent applications and big pharma investment.

    I do tend to throw the baby out with the bath water so show me where the baby is...

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    Default Re: Racism

    Hi Mark, along with the video I posted in my last post here, these are really the boots on the ground type of videos that display the madness in all it's glory. I think each one is roughly 30 mins long. The first one is a slow warm up, but the second 2 are really something to see. It makes Bret's interview with Joe seem tame by comparison.

    I'm just offering these here along with a strong suggestion to watch, but am also fully aware of how obnoxious it is for me to expect you to take time out of your busy day to do that.

    I started writing a more detailed post in response to your post #390, but then realized that you might not have any idea what I'm talking about if you're not fully aware of the entire situation..

    ..so here it is. if it's something that interests you, have a look. if ya do, i think we can have a much broader, nuanced discussion on the entire event

    [/YOUTUBE]

    Last edited by Mike; 21st February 2020 at 02:36.

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    Default Re: Racism

    In support of the movement in science to opening the paradigm wider in regards to the potentiality for alien life to be present on earth. A really extraordinary article.

    A controversial study has a new spin on the otherworldliness of the octopus
    By Ephrat Livni



    Octopuses are strange, smart creatures that certainly seem alien—what with the tentacles, camouflage, and shape-shifting skills. Still, the idea that they actually came from outer space would seem to fall strictly into the realm of sci-fi; an update of HP Lovecraft’s Cthulhu, say.

    But in these interesting times, real life reads like fiction. Recently, a group of 33 scientists worldwide—including molecular immunologist Edward Steele and astrobiologist Chandra Wickramasinghe—published a paper suggesting, in all seriousness, that octopuses may indeed be aliens.

    The paper, published in the March issue of the the journal Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, is controversial, obviously, and the vast majority of scientists would disagree. But the paper is still worthy of discussion—for one, as a thought exercise, because outlandish ideas are often initially rejected. And in provoking us with seemingly bizarre theories, it forces us to acknowledge that there are aspects of life on Earth for which classic evolutionary theory as yet has no explanation.

    The octopus, for example, is traditionally considered to come from the nautiloid, having evolved about 500 million years ago. But that relationship doesn’t explain how these odd cephalopods got all their awesome characteristics or why octopuses are so very different, genetically speaking, from their alleged nautiloid ancestors. The paper states:

    Quote The genetic divergence of Octopus from its ancestral coleoid sub-class is very great … Its large brain and sophisticated nervous system, camera-like eyes, flexible bodies, instantaneous camouflage via the ability to switch color and shape are just a few of the striking features that appear suddenly on the evolutionary scene.
    The transformative genes leading from the consensus ancestral nautilus to the common cuttlefish to squid to the common octopus can’t be found in any pre-existing life form, the authors say.

    So far, so good. But then the paper gets highly speculative. The researchers continue, “It is plausible then to suggest they [octopuses] seem to be borrowed from a far distant ‘future’ in terms of terrestrial evolution, or more realistically from the cosmos at large.”

    To make matters even more strange, the paper posits that octopuses could have arrived on Earth in “an already coherent group of functioning genes within (say) cryopreserved and matrix protected fertilized octopus eggs.” And these eggs might have “arrived in icy bolides several hundred million years ago.” The authors admit, though, that “such an extraterrestrial origin…of course, runs counter to the prevailing dominant paradigm.”

    Indeed, few in the scientific community would agree that octopuses come from outer space. But the paper is not just about the provenance of cephalopods. Its proposal that octopuses could be extraterrestrials is just a small part of a much more extensive discussion of a theory called “panspermia,” which has its roots in the ideas of ancient Greece.

    The word “panspermia” translates to “seeds everywhere.” The idea is that the seeds of life are everywhere in the universe, including space, and life on Earth may originate from “seeds” of some kind in space. In this paper, the authors argue that the “seeds,” or alien life forms invading Earth, come in multiple forms, including “space-resistant and space-hardy” viruses and bacteria. It supports this argument by pointing to organic matter found in comets, as well as various medical studies on the inexplicably intelligent self-replicating abilities and super-strength of viruses. The paper reviews 60 years of experiments and observations from a range of scientific fields to support its unusual conclusions.

    Virologist Karin Moelling of the Max Planck Institute Molecular Genetics in Berlin isn’t convinced, although she says that the paper is worth contemplating because there’s still so much we don’t know about the origins of life on Earth. She writes in a commentary (paywall) in the same publication, “So this article is useful, calling for attention, and it is worth thinking about, yet the main statement about viruses, microbes and even animals coming to us from space, cannot be taken seriously.”

    Evolutionary scientist Keith Baverstock from the University of Eastern Finland, in his commentary on the paper (paywall), is equally wary. The proposed theories “would support an extra-terrestrial origin of life,” he writes. Still, they don’t necessarily lead to that conclusion; there are other plausible explanations for the evidence the paper offers.

    The authors are well aware of the intellectual resistance to their ideas, writing:

    Quote We certainly do not want this paper to read, as one reviewer has put it, ‘somewhat like a last-ditch and exasperated attempt to convince the main stream of the scientific community that…life has been carried to this planet from elsewhere in the universe on comets/meteorites.’
    The researchers acknowledge that some forms of life originated on Earth. But they still say that other, perhaps earlier, forms originated elsewhere, like outer space. In other words, they argue that the two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive, and, taken together, they would help fill in some gaps in the current scientific understanding that the classic evolutionary theory cannot.

    The paper is intended to be provocative. That said, it did withstand a year of intense peer-review before publication. As Steele told Cosmos, “It has thus passed some severe and tortuous tests already.”

    If for no other reason, the ideas proposed in this rather radical paper are worthy of our attention because we always tend to agree with what we already believe. Yet the history of science is full of theories that were mocked and rejected out of hand, only to finally be accepted as truth. Or, in Steele’s words, “The situation is reminiscent to the problem Galileo had with the Catholic priests of his time—most refused to look through his telescope to observe the moons of Jupiter.”

    Consider these scientists intellectual troublemakers. You don’t have to agree with their theories about octopuses from outer space to appreciate their contribution to the great conversation about the origins of life. Society and science need people to articulate unconventional ideas and shake up the status quo. They provoke us to rethink what we imagine we know.
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 21st February 2020 at 15:36. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    As you state, I am not an expert. But the fundamentals are obvious, except to science because science has no way to approach these topics with objectivity - since they are not objective.

    The right fundamentals.

    Life is the reason for the universe.
    Love is the feeling of unity.
    Consciousness is universal.
    The base reality is not substantial.
    Life exists everywhere. By extension, intelligent life is common.

    There are five.
    I like these. Can agree with every one of them. Yes, this is the direction and understanding that every field of science needs to move toward, post haste. From my observation of multiple fields of endeavor, I believe it is happening very fast, right now.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I'll leave it to you to decide whether current research is valuable. All I know is that an effect of an effect is not a cause. That is all they are looking at because the truth is a sanctioned commodity in this as well as many other areas of science that comes too near the occult. It is designed to confuse and lead around and around, and away from the most profound paradigm-breaking discoveries we are not granted access to at any cost.
    Agreed, but again, these truths are moving closer and closer to the mainstream as we engage here and now. The evidence of this, again, crosses fields. It seems that some of it is a deliberate form of tech release, of innovations and discoveries that we in the AltCom know have been around for decades and hundreds if not thousands of years, but which are being celebrated and highlighted in the mainstream press by sanctioned publications and practitioners.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    At least show an interest in (I say to science in general), how, for instance, DNA responds to the morphogenic field that transports information to individuals far removed from each other. Or possibly relate spontaneous asymmetrical hereditary adjustments to some mechanism of DNA. Either and many more would open the door to true 'science' that could help all of us advance our knowledge. These 'marker' games are for patent applications and big pharma investment.
    How quantum entanglement in DNA synchronizes double-strand breakage by type II restriction endonucleases

    Epigenetics: A Turning Point in Our Understanding of Heredity

    I do believe the two articles above in some ways address your points? As I pay very close attention to these areas, if you describe the second, in regards to "spontaneous asymmetrical hereditary adjustments" and whether or not you are refering to epigenetics, we can delve into it deeper. These are vital areas of study and, I believe, they are being addressed by current practitioners.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I do tend to throw the baby out with the bath water so show me where the baby is...
    There is just so much going on, Ernie. So much it is hard to keep up with. It is like a renaissance of intense, scientific rigor. I have been watching and reading and sharing information at the forefront of the quantum exploration for years now and it is breaking into new scientific disciplines every day. The base idea of information being the foundation of Cosmos correlates to the "All is Mind" alchemical formulation of consciousness as foundational to this physical reality. And there are many, many more.

    All of which relate to how we relate to each other, to bring it back to our current discussion on ethnic and racial interrelation and interconnectedness. Understanding how we are interconnected at the scholastic level cannot be expected from all, who do not have the time or the wherewithall to engage this data in depth as some of us do, nor should it be expected. And so ignorance as the rule remains the state of oceanic humanity, until such a time as we can achieve methods of information dissemination that are truly available to a population with the capacity, provided by education, economic stability and culture, to co-create what King called "The Beloved Community". We have a long way to go.

    And a lot of unwilling segments of humanity to convince to go with us.

    Fear and loathing is much easier. It requires no opening of the mind, only a further closing.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I started writing a more detailed post in response to your post #390, but then realized that you might not have any idea what I'm talking about if you're not fully aware of the entire situation..

    ..so here it is. if it's something that interests you, have a look. if ya do, i think we can have a much broader, nuanced discussion on the entire event.
    This morning my students are testing during 5th Period, 4 hours. I don't have a 5th Period class, so I'm now sitting in my classroom till lunchtime with no students. That said to say, I have had the time to watch these videos. What would you like to discuss about them?

    Watching them has not changed my impressions. These are children of the multicultural media era, maturing into a world and within a protected culture provided by an educational institution staffed by liberals who have no idea what to do with the "monsters" they've created. And make no mistake: when I used the word "monsters" in this context, I mean it in the pure sense of its definition, "an imaginary creature that is typically large, ugly, and frightening."

    These are babies. Early-20s and late teens. Many of them are, at least. Living within imagined realities addressing very real material conditions. The imagined reality is the college campus, a space deliberately designed to foster leaps of understanding by teaching the humanities, disciplines to include the Arts and the Sciences. They've just left mama and daddy's houses, the streets, segregated and integrated secondary systems and have found ideologies and adults that provide a structure for their lived, othered experiences of being black or otherwise melanated, white and othered as LGBTQIA, and, apparently, have also been trained in tactics designed to disrupt and forward controversial - to mainstreamed audiences - positions seeking fundamental societal change.

    That is what college is for, to some folks. Exploration of possibility.

    Nobody was hurt, that I can see. People yelling, screaming and crying, while others attempt to engage reasonably, is a sight often seen on college campuses and protest sites around the world.

    This statue, on Texas State University's campus, the Fighting Stallions, is our Free Speech area. This is where you see such things here and it gets really, really rowdy. We get preachers and fundamentalists with large placards and pictures of fetuses, we get white supremacists, LGBTQIA, you name it.




    Their disruption of the campus and their monitoring tactics were admittedly extreme and effective, as far as getting their message out and engaging a wider audience. I'm of the impression that this is the aspect that you are concerned with, perhaps?

    I'm sure some watching this all happen are seeing evocations of Saul Alinsky and the communist threat to disrupt American Democracy and Freedom, although, it seems to me, these days our community, the AltCom, as well as the American political Right and the Drumpfers have more engagement with Russia than diversity advocates on a college campus. It is also strange that we hear the word socialism mentioned a lot more than communism these days, as well.

    Funny how that shift has occurred. Socialism was Europe, but now Europe is demonized among certain populations in the US and Russia is less so.
    Last edited by Mark/Rahkyt; 21st February 2020 at 21:33. Reason: add discussion and pics

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    Default Re: Racism

    Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT), where genes not directly received from our ancestors find their way into the code. Another indication of extraterrestrial origin being a possibility and where and how to find indications of such in the genetic code. Although, I think it is safe to say, that extraterrestrial genetic manipulation of hominids could only have occurred between species that already shared genetics.

    Human genome includes 'foreign' genes not from our ancestors



    Many animals, including humans, acquired essential ‘foreign’ genes from microorganisms co-habiting their environment in ancient times, according to research published in the open access journal Genome Biology. The study challenges the conventional view that animal evolution relies solely on genes passed down through ancestral lines and suggests that, at least in some lineages, the process is still ongoing.

    The transfer of genes between organisms living in the same environment is known as horizontal gene transfer. It is well known in single-celled organisms and thought to be an important process that explains how quickly bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics, for example.

    Horizontal gene transfer is also thought to play an important role in the evolution of some animals, including nematode worms, which have acquired genes from microorganisms and plants, and some beetles that gained bacterial genes to produce enzymes for digesting coffee berries. However, the idea that horizontal gene transfer occurs in more complex animals, such as humans has been widely debated and contested.

    Lead author Alastair Crisp from the Department of Chemical Engineering and Biotechnology at the University of Cambridge said: “This is the first study to show how widely horizontal gene transfer occurs in animals, including humans, giving rise to tens or hundreds of active 'foreign' genes. Surprisingly, far from being a rare occurrence, it appears that this has contributed to the evolution of many, perhaps all, animals and that the process is ongoing. We may need to re-evaluate how we think about evolution.”

    The researchers studied the genomes of 12 species of fruit fly, four species of nematode worm, and ten species of primate, including humans. They calculated how well each of their genes aligns to similar genes in other species to estimate how likely they were to be foreign in origin. By comparing with other groups of species, they were able to estimate how long ago the genes were likely to have been acquired.

    In humans, they confirmed 17 previously-reported genes acquired from horizontal gene transfer, and identified 128 additional foreign genes in the human genome that have not previously been reported. A number of genes, including the ABO gene, which determines an individual’s blood group, were also confirmed as having been acquired by vertebrates through horizontal gene transfer. The majority of the genes were related to enzymes involved in metabolism.

    In humans, some of the genes were involved in lipid metabolism, including the breakdown of fatty acids and the formation of glycolipids. Others were involved in immune responses, including the inflammatory response, immune cell signalling, and antimicrobial responses, while further gene categories include amino-acid metabolism, protein modification and antioxidant activities.

    The team identified the likely class of organisms from which the transferred genes came. Bacteria and protists, another class of microorganisms, were the most common donors in all species studied. They also identified horizontal gene transfer from viruses, which was responsible for up to 50 more foreign genes in primates.

    Some genes were identified as having originated from fungi. This explains why some previous studies, which only focused on bacteria as the source of horizontal gene transfer, originally rejected the idea that these genes were ‘foreign’ in origin.

    The majority of horizontal gene transfer in primates was found to be ancient, occurring sometime between the common ancestor of Chordata and the common ancestor of the primates.

    The authors say that their analysis probably underestimates the true extent of horizontal gene transfer in animals and that direct transfer between complex multicellular organisms is also plausible, and already known in some host-parasite relationships.

    The study also has potential impacts on genome sequencing more generally. Genome projects frequently remove bacterial sequences from results on the assumption that they are contamination.

    “It’s important to screen for contamination when we’re doing genome sequencing, but our study shows that we shouldn’t ignore the potential for bacterial sequences being a genuine part of an animal’s genome originating from horizontal gene transfer,” adds Dr Chiara Boschetti from the Department of Chemical Engineering and Biotechnology.

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    Default Re: Racism

    What if these "ghost lineages" don't just exist in the far distant past? As the techniques for finding traces of them improve, it is quite possible that we will see more recent examples of populations that have snuck into Terran genetic lines, perhaps physically indistinguishable from some populations, but containing unmistakable genetic anomalies that point to an origin just a bit more distant from Sol than Terra.

    Neanderthals may have interbred with a much older human lineage
    The result is likely to be disputed, as it relies on a novel technique.

    JOHN TIMMER



    Shortly before the publication of the first Neanderthal genome, a number of researchers had seen hints that there might be something strange lurking in the statistics of the human genome. The publication of the genome erased any doubts about these hints and provided a clear identity for the strangeness: a few percent of the bases in European and Asian populations came from our now-extinct relatives.

    But what if we didn't have the certainty provided by the Neanderthal genome? That's the situation we find ourselves in now, as several studies have recently identified "ghost lineages"—hints of branches in the human family tree for which we have no DNA sequence but find their imprint on the genomes of populations alive today. The existence of these ghost lineages is based on statistical arguments, so it's very dependent upon statistical methods and underlying assumptions, which are prone to being the subject of disagreement within the community that studies human evolution.

    Now, researchers at the University of Utah are arguing that they have evidence of a very old ghost lineage contributing to Neanderthals and Denisovans (and so, indirectly, possibly to us). This is a claim that others in the field will undoubtedly contest, in part because the evidence comes from an analysis that would also revise the dates of many key events in human evolution. But it's interesting to look at in light of how scientists deal with a question that may never be answered by definitive data.

    Looking for ghosts
    Ghost lineages have made their presence known in two ways. In the first, sequences of DNA from different populations can reveal shared ancestry groups. Native Americans, for example, have sequences that descended from an ancestral population that contributed DNA to modern East Asians, as well as another population that contributed to modern Siberians. In West Africans, we've found a significant contribution from a population that doesn't seem to have contributed to any other existing population (along with contributions from groups that do have current descendants).

    While that population's contribution is well within the range of normal human variation, we still don't know anything about who they were or where they interacted with the ancestors of West Africans. They're a historical ghost at the moment, though further studies could always provide more details.

    But there are hints of additional ghost lineages in our past. In these cases, the contribution comes from something outside the normal range of human variability. Take the Neanderthal DNA, for example. European and Asian populations all share common ancestors that seem to have left Africa about 50,000 years ago and thus have a relatively small range of variations in their DNA. Neanderthals, by contrast, split off from the lineage that produced modern humans hundreds of thousands of years ago and have been largely separated since. They had plenty of time to build up their own variations that are distinct to their lineage and not found in modern human populations.



    Thus, the DNA Neanderthals contributed to Eurasian populations included variants that fall well outside the range of the variation we see in other parts of the genome. And while we know about Neanderthals, it's possible you can get a similar contribution from a group we don't know about.

    The problem is that this sort of branching is impossible to identify at the single-base level. There's no way to distinguish a variant that has arisen recently due to mutation from one that was brought in from a more distantly related lineage. In the diagram below, we take some known branches of the recent human family tree and add a potential ghost lineage. We can imagine an example where, at a specific location in the genome, modern humans and Neanderthals have an A, while Denisovans have a G.



    One explanation for this is that modern humans got their A from Neanderthals, which we know interbred with us. But that interbreeding has mostly contributed to non-African populations, so this is unlikely. Another option is that a mutation occurred on the Denisovan lineage. But a third option is that the G came into the Denisovan population thanks to a completely separate human lineage that interbred with them. At the individual base level, these two options are impossible to tell apart.

    Testing all the things
    To discriminate among all the possible models of our evolutionary past, we have to consider both the information we know—that Neanderthal DNA is rare in African populations, for example—as well as statistical arguments. DNA variants tend to be inherited together, so if there is a contribution from a ghost lineage, it would likely involve some unusual variants clustering near each other in the genome. With enough solid knowledge and a careful statistical analysis of enough genomes, it should be possible to figure out which models are more likely and which can be ruled out.

    That's more or less what this new research did. It starts with two Neanderthal genomes, one Denisovan genome, and one genome each from modern English, French, and Yoruban populations. It then builds different models of potential evolutionary histories—a branch here, a bit of interbreeding there—and determines how well each model is supported by the statistics. Given enough models to test, there should be a pattern where a collection of similar trees is favored. And that model better be consistent with the things we already know.

    The rough outline of the tree that comes out of this analysis does a reasonably good job of matching up with things that have been seen in other analyses. The relatively recent gene flow from Neanderthals into modern humans is there, as is an earlier one from the ancestors of modern humans into early Neanderthals. There's also an indication of gene flow from a ghost population into the Denisovan lineage, which has been seen in other studies. This ghost lineage would have had to occupy some part of Eurasia as a contemporary of the Neanderthals and Denisovans, something that's certainly possible, given that the two groups we know about managed to get there.

    Trees upon trees
    Things start to get a bit strange, however, in the earlier parts of the favored tree. The same ghost lineage would have also contributed DNA to the common ancestor of Neanderthals and Denisovans, suggesting it was a distinct lineage already by the time of their split from the part of the tree that includes modern humans. There's no indication, however, of it contributing to the modern human lineage (except perhaps indirectly via its contribution to Neanderthals). That would suggest that the ghost lineage was outside of Africa by the time the modern human lineage started and only encountered the Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestors once they migrated into Eurasia.

    That's possible, but the only lineages that we know were present outside of Africa at the time were variants of Homo erectus, a much earlier lineage.

    What are we missing?
    Which brings us to the dates of the different splits. The authors use what they acknowledge is a low estimate of the mutation rate/generation to figure out when the lineage splits occur. The estimate produces early splits for all the lineages compared to estimates from other sources. But even accounting for that, the lineage splits are older than most other estimates in the literature.

    And that has a rather dramatic impact on the origin of the ghost lineage. Even using a mutation rate that produces a relatively recent split, the ghost lineage would have been a distinct branch of the human family tree roughly two million years ago. That's right about the same time as Homo erectus shows up in the fossil record. So this tree would have an extremely early branch of H. erectus moving out into Asia and being isolated from the rest of the human lineage until the ancestors of Neanderthals showed up roughly a million years later.

    There's no shortage of reasons to be skeptical about that theory, including the rapid isolation of the lineage from the lineages that remained in Africa and the fact that fertility was still possible after such a long time spent in reproductive isolation. That, plus the fact that the dates disagree with so much else in the literature pretty much guarantees that the paper will be controversial.

    But the paper was never going to be the final word, since the analysis it describes doesn't even try to include a number of additional events in human evolution that we know to be significant. We know that Denisovans contributed DNA to a number of Asian and Pacific lineages, but there are no sequences included from modern humans in those lineages. We also know another ghost lineage from around the time of the branch leading to modern humans contributed DNA—including an entire Y chromosome—to a small group of West African populations. Those aren't represented here, either.

    It's not hard to understand why. More sequences and more branches would mean increased computation time for each tree evaluated, and adding additional potential branches means that far more trees have to be evaluated in total. But including these sorts of well-defined cases of interbreeding have the potential to provide a strong validation of any results produced by this analysis.

    Fortunately, the data is all out there, and someone will undoubtedly find the computer time to make sure it gets done eventually. But this is a case where it's unlikely to be the sort of certainty provided by obtaining a genome from the ghost lineage, given the age of these events. And it may be that the remaining signals in populations we can get genomes from aren't strong enough to eliminate ambiguity.

    It will be interesting to watch how researchers in the field deal with all these remaining uncertainties.

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    Default Re: Racism

    hey Mark, I think it's at the end of the 3rd video when Weinstein makes the comment that this isn't about free speech, racism, or college campuses. it's actually about the breakdown of logic in our civilization. I agree wholeheartedly, and that's why I see it as being fundamentally important. The Evergreen debacle represents a microcosm of this logical breakdown taken to the near extreme.

    The common name given to this breakdown of logic is postmodernism...which you referred to earlier, and which, for those that don't know, is often characterized by a kind of militant, distorted version of equity (equality of outcome), a suspicion and denial of reason and logic, a suspicion and denial of science, an emphasis on group identity, and this idea that reality is not objective..among other things.

    By the way, I mostly agree with everything you've written about the Evergreen thing, but I must admit that I was surprised that you don't appear to be giving any of the responsibility to the students for what went down. I understand free speech zones and rowdy debate - and the propaganda they've been exposed to, and the way they've been misled - but do the students kidnap and hold faculty hostage at your school? Do they barricade them in libraries and threaten them with violence? Do they stalk their ideological adversaries and show up at their homes? Maybe I'm out of the loop dude but that stuff seems pretty severe to me!

    Post modernism, from what I can tell, attempts to create a type of authoritarianism masquerading as utopia. It's structure is as follows..as I understand it (all within the context of the Evergreen events):

    - the death of logic and reason: I'm not sure where to even begin. It's just endless. The council seems to be trying to end racism with more racism. The hiring procedure is preposterous. It required an equity justification for every single position on campus. In a meeting, food was provided for people of color only. Seats were provided for people of color only. Whites are basically required to apologize for their very existence at every turn. It was clearly more of a power play than anything else, in my view.

    - authoritarianism: the council offers a dense plan for what they're calling equity, and while they "invite conversation" about it, they threaten anyone who might question it. And even though they did not reveal it initially, they basically demanded that everyone ask for permission to be apart of it all. One counsel member describes their implementation plan thusly: political organizing, violence, and prayer. When Bret is accused of racism at one particular meeting, he is told - as he begins to defend himself - that this isn't the place to do that. When he asks where he can defend himself, he is told that he will not get that opportunity.

    - the death of science: even though Evergreen was likely the most progressive, liberal college in the country at the time, the students appear to be quite enraged about racism on campus...even though no credible reports of racism ever surfaced. The council declared that to even ask people of color about incidents of racism was a form of racism..which is kind of a sinister Orwellian maneuver. Science needs hypothesis, testability and falsifiability, as Heather says, so it would appear to be one of the first things to go. At one point Bret offers to give a seminar on racism - where it came from and why it exists - to put all the scientific underpinnings in place, but he is treated as if he's going to give a lecture on eugenics or something. Lots of other stuff I can't remember now..but anyway, it's all discordant with the scientific understanding of the world as an objective reality

    - emphasis on group identity: I was saying this in another thread, but it appears as though the lgbqti...community is beginning to crumble under the weight of it's own rainbow metaphor. New oppressed groups are being manufactured daily, and the 'community' is beginning to eat itself as it competes for the victimhood trophy. In one of the videos a student or council member (sorry can't recall) goes on a rant about "gay whites taking over the movement". One of their seminars had to do with "how Asians are contributing to white supremacy". There's also this issue of transgender women in female sports(see my thread on that if interested), and the resentment biological women are feeling in response to it. It feels like a deck of cards to me at the moment, in some ways, because there are too many people seeking power, not authentic equity.

    - the seeking of power masquerading as equity(also, see: authoritarianism): well, that's sprinkled thru all these bullet points. and I'm getting tired lol. at one point whites are sent fetching stuff for the black students. at another they reprimand the university president for using his hands in a way that suggests "micro-aggressions". When he complies with their demands to stop they all laugh and ridicule him. It was all preposterously disingenuous. The council and the activist students weren't actively trying to eradicate racism, they were trying to reverse the historical roles of blacks and whites, and thus achieve a position of power.

    So anyway, like I said in the beginning, these events appear to represent the breakdown of logic and reason in our civilization, and therefore are quite important as a case study type of thing. I've put all this here in the racism thread, but it might actually more appropriately belong in a comprehensive thread on post modernism
    Last edited by Mike; 24th February 2020 at 03:27.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Hey there.

    Postmodernism: a late-20th-century style and concept in the arts, architecture, and criticism that represents a departure from modernism and has at its heart a general distrust of grand theories and ideologies as well as a problematical relationship with any notion of “art.”.

    All of the things you are discussing above, in regards to post-modernism, are a very skewed and unrealistic understanding of a movement that has changed the world. In all actuality, all of the work we do here is postmodern. You can't deny others the same. Just because you don't agree with or understanding their way of breaking down the metanarrative.

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