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Thread: Racism

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Yes, Purple Llama. I agree with much of your post too. Some people do become professional victims and there is a whole industry devoted to that. Many movements get totally side tracked by self interested power hungry people. Same with unions. Great idea until organized crime moved in. I'm thinking Teamsters.
    The grifting is a huge issue. Many people who make the most noise seem to actually accomplish very little for the communities they advocate in favor of, all the while profiting for themselves.

    Did you actually watch the Dark Horse episode they posted above? It is really quite exellent, and covers a lot of the conversation we should be having instead of couching the conversation in the latest woke fashion. I have become a fan of Chloe Valdary since I first saw her live in that episode. Her Theory of Enchantment is worth looking into, and a positive replacement for CRT in diversity training and such.
    Thanks Purple. I have watched a lot of Epstein, and his brother and Jordan Peterson. I certainly like everything I have heard Epstein comment on. I will look up Chloe Valdary too.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.
    Racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key and something you, for some reason don't address.
    Well, that was another pointed sharp barb aimed at me which I truly don't understand. I have no idea why you said that!

    If we wait a short while to read safara's account of living in Zimbabwe (which his family had to flee, and for that reason it may not be all that simple or comfortable for him to write about), we all may see all too clearly how racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key.

    That's why I asked him to share a little more with the community if he felt he could. He's one of the most qualified people here to address that directly.

    You insult me, though maybe of course without meaning to, if you feel somehow I'm unwilling to address the issue (though that's not quite what you said). The point is that I've not experienced it at first hand as safara has. Very few members will have. Maybe no-one else here at all.

    My own fairly substantial experiences in Africa, India, Ladakh and Nepal were all delightful, without exception. (In Ecuador, too, pretty much.) I have no idea if I've just been lucky. I guess humans are humans everywhere (as I reminded us all above) — in their great beauty, and also in their occasional horror.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 26th November 2020 at 00:21.

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    Default Re: Racism

    PLlama, Here is a lovely video of Chloe Valdery. She's wonderful.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/chloe_vald...lity#t-1060834

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    Default Re: Racism

    ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 19:58.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.
    Racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key and something you, for some reason don't address.
    Well, that was another pointed sharp barb aimed at me which I truly don't understand. I have no idea why you said that!

    If we wait a short while to read safara's account of living in Zimbabwe (which his family had to flee, and for that reason it may not be all that simple or comfortable for him to write about), we all may see all too clearly how racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key.

    That's why I asked him to share a little more with the community if he felt he could. He's one of the most qualified people here to address that directly.

    You insult me, though maybe of course without meaning to, if you feel somehow I'm unwilling to address the issue (though that's not quite what you said). The point is that I've not experienced it at first hand as safara has. Very few members will have. Maybe no-one else here at all.

    My own fairly substantial experiences in Africa, India, Ladakh and Nepal were all delightful, without exception. (In Ecuador, too, pretty much.) I have no idea if I've just been lucky. I guess humans are humans everywhere (as I reminded us all above) — in their great beauty, and also in their occasional horror.
    Well, to be honest, I haven't felt heard by you, nor have others. I feel this issue should have been approached differently by you. So I am angry with you. That's all.

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    Default Re: Racism

    LA Times, Ferguson Missouri

    She said the ‘manner of walking” ordinance in particular was “written in such a way as to be so vague it can be used at their discretion against people they want to harass” making it “ripe for abuse.”

    Ferguson residents said the circumstances that led to Brown’s shooting were all too familiar.

    https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...305-story.html

    As the police killing of Michael Brown has focused global attention on the racial divide in the counties in and surrounding St. Louis, Missouri, a new report may explain why residents’ mistrust of the police runs so deep.

    It shows how a large part of the revenue for these counties comes from fines paid by African-American residents who are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops and other low-level offenses. In Ferguson, the fines and fees are actually the city’s second-largest source of income, which is expected to generate $2.7 million in fiscal year 2014.

    We speak with Thomas Harvey, executive director of ArchCity Defenders and co-author of their new report, which has been widely cited — including in a stunning chart in Monday’s New York Times that shows how Ferguson issued on average nearly three warrants per household last year — the highest number of warrants in the state, relative to its size.

    “What my clients have told me since the first day I’ve ever represented anybody is, this is not about public safety, it’s about the money,” Harvey says. We also hear about the impact of the police harassment and ticketing from George Fields, who was among the local residents lined up for Michael Brown’s funeral on Monday in St. Louis.

    https://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/...ng_on_the_poor

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    UhHuh, what exactly do you mean, Strat? Nobody who has read about the lead up to the Ferguson episode, in depth, would be able to deny systemic racism. So again, what point are you trying to make?
    I felt it was pretty obvious? Point was that I do read and I am active in trying to help others. It's part of my life. You said folks like me don't, so I wish we could bet so I could make some money.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    And do you honestly think that the white middle class people on this thread have made an effort to learn anything about the black poverty stricken blacks?
    Whatever others do on this forum is their business. Let them be and don't judge. Since your asking: I dunno but it is Avalon so maybe.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    That was the point of my post. Every time someone draws attention to the fact that "all lives matter" is dismissive they get jumped on.

    It's become a PA illness of some sort. Don't you freqking dare stick up for blacks or ever infer that BLM is anything other than a covert Commie operation on this forum. No sir.

    The fact that it is many things, particularly blacks honestly protesting police murder? Well, you just shut your mouth about that here. And don't dare criticize anybody about their "point of view" in that regard either.
    Well that's how you see it. I just think the majority of the forum thinks differently than you regarding this matter. I think spoon bending is bs, but I don't go into that thread and tell them they're wrong. It wouldn't get anything accomplished other than me annoying people.
    It's best to try to educate yourself on a topic as important as racism,so your comments come from a place of compassion, if that is possible. If people put forth an opinion on a forum and it is suggested that they read up on some of the abuses that blacks have to put up with and why they become resentful, maybe it's a good idea to do that. Nobody likes to feel judged or criticized. Do you think that it is warranted at times? You just judged me. You obviously feel that was warranted.

    I feel like the issue of police violence is finally being heard here. And that's what BLM was originallyabout. It is more important than spoon bending. I have finally broken through and established some clarity on this subject with Ernie Nemeth.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 26th November 2020 at 01:13.

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    Default Re: Racism

    ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 19:57.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    UhHuh, what exactly do you mean, Strat? Nobody who has read about the lead up to the Ferguson episode, in depth, would be able to deny systemic racism. So again, what point are you trying to make?
    I felt it was pretty obvious? Point was that I do read and I am active in trying to help others. It's part of my life. You said folks like me don't, so I wish we could bet so I could make some money.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    And do you honestly think that the white middle class people on this thread have made an effort to learn anything about the black poverty stricken blacks?
    Whatever others do on this forum is their business. Let them be and don't judge. Since your asking: I dunno but it is Avalon so maybe.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    That was the point of my post. Every time someone draws attention to the fact that "all lives matter" is dismissive they get jumped on.

    It's become a PA illness of some sort. Don't you freqking dare stick up for blacks or ever infer that BLM is anything other than a covert Commie operation on this forum. No sir.

    The fact that it is many things, particularly blacks honestly protesting police murder? Well, you just shut your mouth about that here. And don't dare criticize anybody about their "point of view" in that regard either.
    Well that's how you see it. I just think the majority of the forum thinks differently than you regarding this matter. I think spoon bending is bs, but I don't go into that thread and tell them they're wrong. It wouldn't get anything accomplished other than me annoying people.
    It's best to try to educate yourself on a topic as important as racism,so your comments come from a place of compassion, if that is possible. If people put forth an opinion on a forum and it is suggested that they read up on some of the abuses that blacks have to put up with and why they become resentful, maybe it's a good idea to do that. Nobody likes to feel judged or criticized. Do you think that it is warranted at times? You just judged me. You obviously feel that was warranted.

    I feel like the issue of police violence is finally being heard here. And that's what BLM was originallyabout. It is more important than spoon bending. I have finally broken through and established some clarity on this subject with Ernie Nemeth.
    Again, I must contest. Racism and police violence are not nearly as important as spoon bending.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Again, I must contest. Racism and police violence are not nearly as important as spoon bending.
    I'm not flexible enough for this, us yellow belts know when to bow out.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    Default Re: Racism

    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th November 2020 at 08:58.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't felt heard by you, nor have others. I feel this issue should have been approached differently by you. So I am angry with you. That's all.
    Yes, you are! But maybe you might focus your anger on those who really are racist. (And there are none here on Avalon.)

    Although you visited the thread, you may have forgotten that I started this topic...
    ...as well as THIS Racism thread!

    And you were kind enough to thank this photo I posted on the All Lives Matter thread.



    You may also have forgotten that in my opening post there I wrote: (thanked by 81 members)

    ~~~
    Of course, black lives matter. (And I'm NOT going to put that in Title Case.)

    Because white lives matter, too.

    So do the lives of
    • The domestically abused
    • Abused children
    • Native Americans (I wonder what they think about all this?)
    • The Uyghurs, a million of them in China's "re-education camps"
    • Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh (a million of them, too)
    • The San Bushmen, who've been displaced from the Kalahari desert where they had lived for 40,000 years
    • The Australian Aborigines, and the New Zealand Maoris
    • All the poorest people in the world who live on less than $1 a day
    • The indigenous tribes in the Amazon rain forest
    • Julian Assange (and 1001 other political prisoners whose names we may never know)
    • Everyone reading this.
    ~~~
    • Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it.
    • "All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's a reminder.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't felt heard by you, nor have others. I feel this issue should have been approached differently by you. So I am angry with you. That's all.
    Yes, you are! But maybe you might focus your anger on those who really are racist. (And there are none here on Avalon.)

    Although you visited the thread, you may have forgotten that I started this topic...
    ...as well as THIS Racism thread!

    And you were kind enough to thank this photo I posted on the All Lives Matter thread.



    You may also have forgotten that in my opening post there I wrote: (thanked by 81 members)

    ~~~
    Of course, black lives matter. (And I'm NOT going to put that in Title Case.)

    Because white lives matter, too.

    So do the lives of
    • The domestically abused
    • Abused children
    • Native Americans (I wonder what they think about all this?)
    • The Uyghurs, a million of them in China's "re-education camps"
    • Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh (a million of them, too)
    • The San Bushmen, who've been displaced from the Kalahari desert where they had lived for 40,000 years
    • The Australian Aborigines, and the New Zealand Maoris
    • All the poorest people in the world who live on less than $1 a day
    • The indigenous tribes in the Amazon rain forest
    • Julian Assange (and 1001 other political prisoners whose names we may never know)
    • Everyone reading this.
    ~~~
    • Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it.
    • "All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's a reminder.
    I apologize for having to break the lurk but I just wanted to add:

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)

    Medical problems kills a bunch of americans.
    Malnutrition kills many americans and make them more vulnerable to disease.
    Not being properly compensated for the labor that makes their companies big profits.
    People die on the streets.

    If all the People saying "All Lives matter" were at the same time also pushing the beliefs like I just described, then I might take the point of view seriously.

    If you are pro the current system(whatever you want to call it) and are not calling for DRASTIC reform of our society, then all lives do not actually matter, just the capital class that benefits from the status quo. Bezos has seen his wealth drastically increase, the stock market is up meanwhile homelessness is on the rise and people line up for Food banks. Where is the "all lives matter" concern for all these people?

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    I apologize for having to break the lurk but I just wanted to add:

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)

    Medical problems kills a bunch of americans.
    Malnutrition kills many americans and make them more vulnerable to disease.
    Not being properly compensated for the labor that makes their companies big profits.
    People die on the streets.

    If all the People saying "All Lives matter" were at the same time also pushing the beliefs like I just described, then I might take the point of view seriously.

    If you are pro the current system(whatever you want to call it) and are not calling for DRASTIC reform of our society, then all lives do not actually matter, just the capital class that benefits from the status quo. Bezos has seen his wealth drastically increase, the stock market is up meanwhile homelessness is on the rise and people line up for Food banks. Where is the "all lives matter" concern for all these people?
    Glad to see you here, Praxis.
    Thinking about your points, I think many of us can agree that drastic reform is needed, but we have many different ideas on how this can/should come about.

    1. Medicare for all? As it stands, medicare rather sucks and is draining the healthcare system. A solution would have to go far beyond just suddenly extending medicare to all. The entire healthcare system and pharma industry needs an overhaul first.
    2. Universal Basic Food - Again, the "food" that would likely be universally available to all as it stands now would likely serve to depopulate even faster.
    3. Labor represented on boards - That sounds like a good call, imo, unless someone can point out factors I have overlooked?
    4. Free housing for all - Much thought would be needed to implement that one. Free "Housing" without care and maintenance can easily devolve into cesspools. "Labor camps" could fit the "free" description too.

    The whole system, as it stands, would have to be totally morphed to humanely accomplish these ideals. I think there is a lot of fear around the possibility of idealists rushing into these goals without adequate forethought, with the result being a drastically lower quality of life for most.

    Do you trust the current leaders that are spouting these ideals? Does it not feel that they just might have an ulterior agenda, judging by their own hypocritical actions?
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

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  28. Link to Post #576
    United States Moderator Chris Gilbert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)
    Many of those changes I do want in some form. I used to subscribe more to the economic libertarian ideas that are common on this site and other conspiracy discussions, but nowadays I see them largely as a dead end. If anything I've grown more open-minded to FDR style New Deal changes. I think that too that many libertarian/independent leaning Americans increasingly do not at all understand the perspectives of minorities, younger generations or foreign cultures, and when it comes to the human toll on the environment, they have their heads in the sand.

    Despite that however, my belief in civil liberties has only strengthened, and thus I'm quite averse to many aspects of critical theory. For that reason, I'm skeptical of any movement to correct inequalities that relies on a top-down approach, without have a bedrock of decentralized energy abundance to build off of.

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  30. Link to Post #577
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

    Ive read quite a bit of it! I think I've understood you for the most part all along but just look at a few things differently.

    We do disagree I think on the degree to which racism plays a role in police interactions. From the data I've seen, I do not believe there is "systemic racism" involved in policing. And I do not think police brutality is systemic. The data just doesn't suggest that.

    Now, as far as the prison systems and the courts, I will confess to having quite a bit to learn. I'm going to revisit your thread and read carefully everything you've posted, and do a good bit of thinking and research on it. You have my word, for what it's worth.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th November 2020 at 20:26.

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  32. Link to Post #578
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    Default Re: Racism

    Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it. Bill Ryan

    Nobody is asking you to support some of their leaders. They are self serving. On the other hand, there are millions of black white and yellow people protesting under the loose banner of BLM who are a collection of individuals with diverse backgrounds, personalities, affinities. Not recognizing that reality ends up painting all those who are protesting police brutality with the same brush.

    When the greater public peruse the forum, see your posts about BLM they likely think they are a dog whistle for lack of acknowledgment of the real pain and suffering going on in the black community in America. When you respond back to criticism with posts about all the different ethnic groups in the world who are having a terrible time, and fail to even acknowledge the black community and police brutality in America, it isn't fair, imho.

    I feel through these posts that end up downplaying the specific suffering of blacks in America (through the prison system and police brutality) that you have created a winnowing process of members. PA has ended up being a forum without diversity of opinion, that relies too heavily on biased hate filled youtube videos.

    Quiet, gentler types just move on because they end up having to compete with a hostile individual with a bullhorn on youtube. The information presented is often not factual, overly emotional and often very biased. I am not going to outline every problem with social media, as you are likely aware.

    Believing youtube videos from questionable sources that downplay the seriousness of the racial issue in the U.S. is the flip side of the same coin as SJW videos that make the tiniest pettiest individual grievance, political. They are both highly divisive and full of hate engendering nonsense.

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  34. Link to Post #579
    Canada Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

    Ive read quite a bit of it! I think I've understood you for the most part all along but just look a few things differently.

    We do disagree I think on the degree to which racism plays a role in police interactions. From the data I've seen, I do not believe there is "systemic racism" involved in policing. And I do not think police brutality is systemic. The data just doesn't suggest that.

    Now, as far as the prison systems and the courts, I will confess to having quite a bit to learn. I'm going to revisit your thread and read carefully everything you've posted, and do a good bit of thinking and research on it. You have my word, for what it's worth.
    The policing system in rural Canada is worse than the U.S, generally speaking. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them all a great deal.

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  36. Link to Post #580
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    Default Re: Racism

    ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 19:56.

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