Racism

[Mike]

Reality is imminently subjective if you're just inventing stuff and calling it reality. But fair enough . What you're neglecting to mention is the very small number of realities that actually have any utility whatsoever in the real world. And if you want to parse up the phrase "real world" into a bunch of flaky philosophies that have zero objective reality, keep teaching your students that, grab a beer, and sit back and watch the world crumble.

Yes, your delusional realities are just as real to *you* as the sciences are to everyone else. That's quite mad, but wouldn't be so dangerous if it wasn't being forced on everyone else in an authoritarian manner. It's not about equity at all with the postmodernists, it's about power. If taking over a campus and holding faculty hostage isn't a sufficient enough example for you, i don't know what is.

I do know where those kids are coming from, and it frightens me that it doesn't frighten you in the least. There were other kids there that weren't black btw. Lots of them. And I do care quite a bit because the sanity of our civilization is hanging in the balance.

[Mark]

Posted by Mike (here)
Reality is imminently subjective if you're just inventing stuff and calling it reality. But fair enough . What you're neglecting to mention is the very small number of realities that actually have any utility whatsoever in the real world. And if you want to parse up the phrase "real world" into a bunch of flaky philosophies that have zero objective reality, keep teaching your students that, grab a beer, and sit back and watch the world crumble.

Just inventing stuff, huh? LOL Right. From your perspective.

You have absolutely no idea what I teach my students, Mike. Nor, in essence, what I believe. Your lack of desire to see through someone else's eyes seems to make it difficult for you to countenance viewpoints that are different from your own but that is fine. Those of us who have lived a lifetime from an othered perspective can see your way of thinking, have been immersed in it from the time we were toddlers, and understand folks who think like you very well. We will do what is necessary to make sure our children and your children are able to work together to save this world because we believe that we must do it as a human family, and together. That is the only way it can happen. And it will because it is our destiny to do so and inherit the stars.

The world is crumbling because the people in the world have decided that it is time for it to crumble.

The world as it has been, at least. The world that will result, with all of our conflicts and cultures and ancient political conspiracies and biospheric dangers, will be exactly what our descendants make it. And they will see our inadequacies of this time and rise above them to do so because they must.

And more power to them.

Posted by Mike (here)
Yes, your delusional realities are just as real to *you* as the sciences are to everyone else. That's quite mad, but wouldn't be so dangerous if it wasn't being forced on everyone else in an authoritarian manner. It's not about equity at all with the postmodernists, it's about power. If taking over a campus and holding faculty hostage isn't a sufficient enough example for you, i don't know what is.

Campuses are never really taken over by students. They are allowed to occupy space. We can talk about tenuous grasps upon reality, if you really choose to.

Posted by Mike (here)
I do know where those kids are coming from, and it frightens me that it doesn't frighten you in the least. There were other kids there that weren't black btw. Lots of them. And I do care quite a bit because the sanity of our civilization is hanging in the balance.

You don't understand the pain you saw expressed there. If you did, you wouldn't talk the way you do. And the color of the kids, really doesn't matter. Because they have the capacity to love one another, truly, and stand together.

And that is what will save this world.

[Mac]

Mike, Pick an era..the sanity of our civilisation is always in the balance, that's life. The approach you take is part of the problem whether you be righty or lefty or centre. I'm not having a dig and agree with some of your concerns. (Don't be a sjw though ) that's a light hearted poke. As for the sciences being some sort of infallible God wait see what tomorrow brings everything can be turned on its head in a moments inspiration..see history. cheers

[Mike]

Ok, look man, I want to walk away from this being cool with you. I have pretty strong opinions on all this stuff, but it was wrong of me to be insulting. I apologize for that. I know you feel just as strongly on your end and so I'll try my best to consider that moving forward

I worry because, sheesh, just yesterday I saw this professor at University of Toronto saying there are no biological differences between men and women. He wasnt arguing the gender case...he was literally saying there are no biological differences between men and women. And from what I've been seeing since, having dug into it a little, is that he's not the only one! Other profs are saying it too. It's common in gender studies. I understand what you're saying about subjective realities, in fairness. But what does quantum physics have to do with that? Ya know?

The evergreen thing felt so witch hunty to me, and so disturbing . I imagine you think you're on the right side of things and that those are your people. And maybe they are. But I fear that one day one of those kids will tell you you're too black, or not black enough, or too smart, or too tall, or too priveledged because of your position as a teacher, or whatever. And then whatever name that is invented for your priveledge and status will be followed by "frailty", and *you'll* be viewed as the oppressor.

Is that something you've ever considered? im no denier of racism, I'm quite grounded and aware of whats going on around me. But what im seeing now (im back in school these days, going for my degree 20 years too late) on campus is a distorted version of victimhood run absolutely amok.

[Mac]

My post could be seen as a bit sarky tbf, with hindsight. Didn't mean to put you on the back foot. It's a hot topic so will generate heat. I'm out too, as all I can see is all wanting the same thing, just bloody politics and confusion stopping us seeing this.

[Mike]

Posted by Mac (here)
My post could be seen as a bit sarky tbf, with hindsight. Didn't mean to put you on the back foot. It's a hot topic so will generate heat. I'm out too, as all I can see is all wanting the same thing, just bloody politics and confusion stopping us seeing this.

Nah it's all good Mac. No worries.

[AutumnW]

Mark, It would be helpful if you would use specific examples of oppression. As a Canadian, for example, I find it astonishing that so many blacks are warehoused in prisons and that there is a profit incentive to keep them there. Many large corporations use the prison system for cents on the dollar labor. Then, they abscond those tiny wages by charging inmates room and board. Very few people know about this. It is a glaring and horrible practice. Strangely, I have not seen it taken up as a cause by academia, the same academia that provides a loudspeaker to those who focus on 'micro-aggressions.'

Imho, macro-aggressions should be cleared up for the benefit of all, before micro-aggressions get so much play.

I have thought for years that the funding for gender studies programmes, for example, comes from front foundations that present as progressive but are actually right wing groups who have been trying to fracture the left. The real fragility here is a collective unwillingness to establish the genesis of these programs.

[Mark]

Posted by Mike (here)
Ok, look man, I want to walk away from this being cool with you.

I know that you've got good intentions, Mike so it's all good in the hood. This is a difficult topic, as you know. I'm glad you came in to talk about it, this is what has to happen and this is the only time in this nation's history that it has been able to happen.

I mean, that is really my bottom line. And, not really just this nation, but the world!

We use the USA as an example, but that is only because it is here that the front line of racial reconciliation is occuring, there are many nations in the world that require the same kind of discussions, so I hope that by us addressing them here in the context of the AltCom, we will be able to create a record that others planet-wide will be able to access, because I believe that it is here, in the AltCom, that many of the solutions we require as a planetary species are first discussed, as well as the dissemination of knowledge regarding the true state of affairs, for those who come to awareness to sift to in order to find whatever they consider to be the truth. I am continuously thankful to Bill for starting this thread in order to add a record of this discussion, as wide and as far-ranging as we can make it, with as many diverse thoughts and opinions as possible in order to make it representative of as many people as possible.

I'm trying to keep it even myself, so as not to "scare" anyone off from making comments. Easier said than done.

Posted by Mike (here)
I have pretty strong opinions on all this stuff, but it was wrong of me to be insulting. I apologize for that. I know you feel just as strongly on your end and so I'll try my best to consider that moving forward

We both want what is best for all of the people of the world, I think. It's not about me personally. I can take insults. I'm apparently a damn politician now, so I better have a thick skin. I may get passionate but I'll never be disrespectful.

Posted by Mike (here)
I worry because, sheesh, just yesterday I saw this professor at University of Toronto saying there are no biological differences between men and women. He wasnt arguing the gender case...he was literally saying there are no biological differences between men and women. And from what I've been seeing since, having dug into it a little, is that he's not the only one! Other profs are saying it too. It's common in gender studies. I understand what you're saying about subjective realities, in fairness. But what does quantum physics have to do with that? Ya know?

I have not seen that or heard that myself. I'd be interested in seeing how he justifies it but it does not sound like a position I could support. There are a lot of issues with Trans folk and integrating into traditional societies, and that is difficult enough. To deny a biological truth though, seems beyond the pale.

Posted by Mike (here)
The evergreen thing felt so witch hunty to me, and so disturbing . I imagine you think you're on the right side of things and that those are your people. And maybe they are. But I fear that one day one of those kids will tell you you're too black, or not black enough, or too smart, or too tall, or too priveledged because of your position as a teacher, or whatever. And then whatever name that is invented for your priveledge and status will be followed by "frailty", and *you'll* be viewed as the oppressor.

Mike. It's not that I'm totally on their side. I can see where you are coming from as I also believe some of the commentary was an extreme reaction.

But we are experiencing a time of extremity on all sides of every equation. It seems polarity is the rule of the day and that makes sense, so none of it surprises me. Perhaps that is what you are seeing as agreement.

I see their side of it just as I see the Proud Boys side of things, just as I see the KKK's side of things, just as I see the Aryan nation's side of things.

But I'm on the side of Justice. The greatest expression of such for the largest amount of people and that equation requires me to seek justice in each position and multiversal justice, in this case, lies on the side of those historically oppressed in this nation and in others. It is difficult that it has to happen in generations inhabited by people who didn't create the system and only inherited it, but, on the other side of things, there was a dark inheritance as well. And the balance must be sought.

Posted by Mike (here)
Is that something you've ever considered? im no denier of racism, I'm quite grounded and aware of whats going on around me. But what im seeing now (im back in school these days, going for my degree 20 years too late) on campus is a distorted version of victimhood run absolutely amok.

What we are witnessing in the White House is privilege run amok. Balance.

[Mark]

Posted by Mac (here)
My post could be seen as a bit sarky tbf, with hindsight. Didn't mean to put you on the back foot. It's a hot topic so will generate heat. I'm out too, as all I can see is all wanting the same thing, just bloody politics and confusion stopping us seeing this.

If you have other thoughts to share Mac, don't hesitate. You can take the heat. I have faith in you.

[Mark]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Mark, It would be helpful if you would use specific examples of oppression. As a Canadian, for example, I find it astonishing that so many blacks are warehoused in prisons and that there is a profit incentive to keep them there. Many large corporations use the prison system for cents on the dollar labor. Then, they abscond those tiny wages by charging inmates room and board. Very few people know about this. It is a glaring and horrible practice. Strangely, I have not seen it taken up as a cause by academia, the same academia that provides a loudspeaker to those who focus on 'micro-aggressions.'

The prison-industrial complex is a direct inheritance from slavery. From the era of the Black Codes following slavery, those lower class whites, Irish, some English, French and other marginalized groups who manned the slave patrols and other posts of the control system herded black men particularly into jails and prisons, for indigence. There were no jobs, and blacks had been freed, so they were put back to work doing what they were doing before, working the plantations and continuing to help build this nation from the ground up. The Black Codes were supplanted by the Jim Crow system of social control in the 1900s, which continued the same procedures as well as they were able in the south and the jails became warehouses for black men to continue to labor for free, continuing to build this nation and maintain its roads and increase its wealth.

There are many examples and articles about it as this is no secret. I have cousins here in Texas who work in the prisons out in the hinterlands between the big cities, because there are no other jobs of worth available with benefits and substantial pay. They'd rather be doing anything else, I'd imagine and, over the years that I've known them working there, I've seen their personalities change and I believe it has contributed to the death of a couple of my cousins who passed before their time, because of the stress of it.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Imho, macro-aggressions should be cleared up for the benefit of all, before micro-aggressions get so much play.

Why can't we do both at the same time? Why can't addressing all of the issues simultaneously be a way of working through this? It is not as if we are on a time schedule. Nor is it as if we have some higher, guiding force aligning these issues for remediation according to a linear scheduling process. People hurt, daily. Microaggressions literally drive people crazy. It is hard to know that if you do not experience it. It contributes to shortened lifespans for those affected by it. Blacks are dying from racism.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I have thought for years that the funding for gender studies programmes, for example, comes from front foundations that present as progressive but are actually right wing groups who have been trying to fracture the left. The real fragility here is a collective unwillingness to establish the genesis of these programs.

You may have a very real point there. The new movement, American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS), that seeks to separate the interests of continental Africans from black Americans - by separating us out for consideration of Reparations - seems to have some component of Right Wing interest and collusion. So it is a definite thing.

[Hym]

Mark/Rahkyt. It is the best of real education you share here. I am appreciative of it all.

And, maybe more to the point, it is the contributions of all who have participated here by inquiring, sharing and challenging that give the subject it's worth. It'd be, as it always is, much more insightful when more share their viewpoints and experiences. Kudos for asking others to contribute.

The insights, the depth of looking into all aspects of the subject and all of it's impact in so many areas of our lives is, but should not be, unique. It runs to the core of those things that claim to be just.

Put it in books, in curriculum and into communications wherever people gather and claim to be fair, open and equal in the application of civil rights and employment opportunities.

In this life I have noticed that I arrive personally at the end of many injustices, at the times of reckoning, judgement and settlements that prove the worth of being... hue-mun.

Now I see that those things open up new paths to run, as the walk of humanity, for me, is way too slow. (Ray muhn ih bidi jog juhmaaoo...Singee such uhkuhpuht kuntuhlaa... My mind...opening to the true sight..discipline your focus in this way..)

When the color of being from the heart overcomes the mind, the mun, the man, the mundane, it expands beyond the field of normal sight and reaches even the soul-bound blind.

It takes but a few to make the paths open, but they must be thoroughly introspective, enough to clear the debris, as the insights of one opens the hearts of many.
Thank YOU!

[Mike]

Hi Mark, that Toronto University professor's name is Nicolas Matte. I know which video he makes the claim in but I don't have the timestamp atm. Too pressed for time to find it atm, but will definitely do that and post here a little later.

As far as Trump goes, I think the more radical elements of the left (sorry Dennis!) are just as responsible for his popularity as anything. I think they actually created the phenomena that they so abhor thru their excessive moralizing and sermonizing and thru their postmodern stunts. The radical right is the equation balancing itself, as they say in the Matrix movies. That's how I see it anyway. Let me guess, you disagree?

You're right, we both want what's best for the world. I've never doubted your good intentions either. I know you're a good man. It's obvious. It's just that our diagnosis of the issues and our ways of remedying them differ

And btw, I'm not a political animal at all. I didn't vote for Trump, for what it's worth, and I don't want to get into the business of defending him. But his rise to power is not quite as simple as a bunch of ignorant red necks voting him in. Much more nuanced than that in my view.

Mac, I have to respectfully push back a little on what you said in an earlier post. Mark knows how I feel about this but I'll repeat it for you here: the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers. Did you watch all 3 videos I posted in this thread? If you have, and you still think it's just kids being kids then there is such a wide gulf in our thinking that I won't address it further. But I'm curious if you've actually watched all 3 videos.

p.s. to be clear, I don't think Dennis is a "radical leftist". i just know he loathes those terms being thrown around

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mike (here)
the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers.

And (I'd suggest) ego-driven, self-important, and aggressively self-righteous. That's often quite dangerous fuel to add to these kinds of flames.

[Mac]

Mac, I have to respectfully push back a little on what you said in an earlier post. Mark knows how I feel about this but I'll repeat it for you here: the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers. Did you watch all 3 videos I posted in this thread? If you have, and you still think it's just kids being kids then there is such a wide gulf in our thinking that I won't address it further. But I'm curious if you've actually watched all 3 videos. " "

No I didn't, you're right apologies, life is too short. I do know the specifics though and think it's frankly ridiculous all of it. They'll be gone soon it'll blow over and blowing it out of proportion just gives them air. What I would be interested to see is what are they doing to nip this in the bud in the future. What it does need is cool headed people to analyse why it happened and and to implement measured solutions. This happened when I was at School, student strikes and teachers heckled. Lasted a week was national and fizzled out, I can't even remember what it was about (80's). A combination of parents and peer pressure stopped it after the grievances were aired. USA mmv, hopefully not. Imo a lot of the Teachers need to cop on fast and this race nonsense just needs to be eradicated because for most half way sane people it's twaddle.

Edit: I'm curious though what would you have us do Mike it's obvious most agree it's nuts. What can we do about it that's not going to inflame it. Cheers

[Mark]

Posted by Hym (here)
It is the best of real education you share here. I am appreciative of it all.

Thank you for the gift of presence and attention. I have the time in my life to engage this way and I'm grateful for the space to do it and also for the participation of everyone who is helping to drive this topic forward. It is one of the most emotionally charged issues of our time and getting past the hype and histrionics to really address what lies beneath is one of the most important goals we as a species can assay considering the larger issues we have to deal with together moving forward. It is a global issue. Your words are greatly appreciated.

Posted by Mike (here)
Hi Mark, that Toronto University professor's name is Nicolas Matte. I know which video he makes the claim in but I don't have the timestamp atm.

I'll check it out on google, thanks, I'm sure there is plenty of furor over a stance like that.

Posted by Mike (here)
As far as Trump goes, I think the more radical elements of the left (sorry Dennis!) are just as responsible for his popularity as anything. I think they actually created the phenomena that they so abhor thru their excessive moralizing and sermonizing and thru their postmodern stunts. The radical right is the equation balancing itself, as they say in the Matrix movies. That's how I see it anyway. Let me guess, you disagree?

I would turn those around. The "radical Right" is more in line with the official history of America. The radical Left has always been a response to the original oppression of genocide and slavery. As I said in my last post, there has never been a time in American history where a Left has existed to this extent. Or, as Chris Rock put it:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=z_L7qoP17-w

Sometimes comedy can approach some truths that are difficult to speak about seriously. Supremacy in any form is not a healthy way to look at the world and our place in it as members of a human family.

Posted by Mike (here)
You're right, we both want what's best for the world. I've never doubted your good intentions either. I know you're a good man. It's obvious. It's just that our diagnosis of the issues and our ways of remedying them differ

And btw, I'm not a political animal at all. I didn't vote for Trump, for what it's worth, and I don't want to get into the business of defending him. But his rise to power is not quite as simple as a bunch of ignorant red necks voting him in. Much more nuanced than that in my view.

What is your way of remedying some of these issues that might be different from mine? I am curious, as that is the topic of the thread and talking about solutions should be a part of all of this.

And in regards to Drumpf, I am inclined to agree, to the extent that he is an expression of a desire by a plenary that transcends political party, seeking to build a neo-apartheid sanctuary out of the potential Democracy most Americans would like to see realized.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
the Evergreen events weren't just a bunch of kids being creatively rebellious at university. It wasn't "kids being kids". It was kids being mobs and kidnappers and hostage takers.

And (I'd suggest) ego-driven, self-important, and aggressively self-righteous. That's often quite dangerous fuel to add to these kinds of flames.

That is true, as far as it goes.

It is also behavior that has been, historically and accurately, assigned to the other political side of this equation, most particularly in relation to the categorization of "the other side", the Left, as an ethnic rather than ethnic + sexual minority. The addition of the white kids, makes them generally unassailable by police violence, as they are potentially the children of privilege.

Consider who their "enemy" is. Who they are fighting against and the message they are seeking to get across. They see themselves as assailing a system that has historically considered their lives automatically forfeit as people like that have historically been considered to be property of that system and, therefore, imminently expendable. If the police can be considered to be "Kidnappers and hostage takers" and economic violence alongside sheer, terroristic subjugation are their tools, then in most logical extrapolations of these responses, more extreme violence could have been forthcoming in that scenario but, so far, has not been.

The LGBTQIA white kids are standing with their black and brown friends and lovers and they act as a shield. Some of them are radicals, in the tradition of John Brown, it seems, and "extreme" measures are apparently not off the table.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

Are these children the ones to put them out? Are they responsible for taking the higher road, and expressing a way of being that has never existed before now?

[Mac]

Mark I've seen white on white racism and its consequences. The devastation of being born with baggage that has nothing to do with the individual born. I've seen it cause people to bomb and kill and maim. I've seen it kill spirit so much they end up addicted to drink drugs and become disowned and despised by even their own kind. I've seen it make it people live psychotic lifestyles as" hard cases" just trying to validate themselves.
I don't know what it feels like to be a black Man, but what I do know racism is always going to be around in some form, until we evolve a bit more 8) What in your opinion is the best way to teach kids how to see past it, look down on it for what it is. Everyone can be capable of racism/tribalism whether they know it or not when push comes to shove, again see history. Your jails are full of the results of a demographic who believed the lies, not all obviously but the cultures sometimes within disaffected groups can be a bit unhealthy. How can we get it into the children's heads not to own it or be affected by it,because it's never healthy if they do. Same goes for the non racist white folk who get labelled guilty. How can we get it in their heads yes it's history but it's not you,forgive, learn from it, don't repeat it and move onward and upwards. Sorry Mike for slight deviation.

Edit: I also understand that a black Man in some jurisdictions would get jail probably quicker than the white boy from a different part of town. Although I am only guessing at that, haven't looked at the stats,but fairly confident. I still think just teaching them to remove the baggage, if they can is the way to go imho. To be fair the majority do don't they. We manage fairly well here in the UK for all our faults. Brexit got a bit weird but normal service resumed-ish. The times are a bit bleh but been far worse so we ought to be hopeful...maybe. We've moved on a bit, again see history. Still a way to go but doable. 8) (fingers crossed)

[Mike]

Mark you know what the real irony of this entire dialogue is? We couldn't have even had this conversation on the Evergreen campus. We'd be shouted down immediately by self-righteous sloganeering and hideous shrieks of hysterical emotion. Or kidnapped and taken hostage, who knows? (Well, you might not be shouted down, but I would have been)

Their assumption of moral superiority is arrogant beyond belief. They are so sure of themselves that they won't even allow any dialogue that might suggest otherwise. That's the type of authoritarian ideology that creates dictators, fascist regimes, and wars.

The black kids on campus have justified reasons to feel upset about the world. But it's no excuse to kidnap and take hostages. The trans kids have some legitimate gripes too, but it doesn't give them the excuse to throw biology in the trash...and worse yet, demand that everyone else do the same. And none of them are the arbiters of truth and justice, and therefore have no right whatsoever to abolish the freedom of speech and expression for everyone else. Without realizing it, they're fighting against the very equity they purport to be espousing.

My remedies to the current situation won't resonate with you at all because I don't view western civilization as being an inherently evil, patriarchal society run by white supremacists. But it mostly involves facing what's in front of us (reality) with courage and strength(not inventing subjective narratives to avoid it), cultivating virtue, and embracing personal responsibility instead of blaming everyone and everything for one's issues (hey I warned you that it wouldn't resonate with you! lol)

The victim mentality creates helpless people, it doesn't embolden them. Enabling this type of behavior creates weak, authoritarian brats. Tyrants in training, basically.

The Chris Rock clip is great. He's a legend, love the dude. I don't mind the jibes at whites at all. But his true genius is that he also isn't afraid to admit when black people have gone crazy too

[Mac]

I must add because, well because I'm not a fan of telling anyone how to feel, not that I'm suggesting that's what anybody's doing heh (oh dear).
What I will say is, the only reason I explored this here with Mark is, he obviously has very little baggage, because it is a hot potato in US I get that.
My experience here in the UK is not the same. I still maintain removing the baggage is the way forward.

[Dennis Leahy]

Back when this thread started, I was one of the mods in the backroom discussing the issue, which had been precipitated by what I and (I don't remember who else) saw as racism creeping, well, more like stampeding into this forum. Trump had made blatantly racist statements about Mexicans and Arabs in his rise to political power, and I could see that there were a number of Trump supporters in the forum that had unmasked their own racism. Bill immediately saw this as a cultural issue, misidentified as racism. I disagreed strongly. There certainly is, or can be, a "culture clash" component to forced immigration (forced by the imperial American Empire, via war, notably), and perhaps the immigration and especially forced immigration (refugees from imperialism) issue is better identified by the much softer sounding "culture-ism" moniker, but I felt/feel that this misses the point of the underlying racism. In some cases, say Iranians, for example, the hue of skin tone is really not the issue (many Iranians could blend in - skin tone wise - with the crowd at a KKK rally), so I also realize that the simple, easy accusation of "racism!" isn't entirely semantically accurate.

So, I decided early on to just stay out of this thread, to not be the "turd in the punchbowl" seemingly arguing semantics, and allow Bill to expound on his thesis.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Thanks again — but you're totally not getting it.

Let me spell it out.

I wrote:

I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

What this means — and I'm sure of it — is that most of the people in the US or Canada who don't want non-integrated people from other cultures there are not racist.

French, German, Swedish or British people who don't want Middle Eastern immigrants there aren't racist, either.

Of course it's not about race. It's about the preservation of culture. This is my entire point.

The anti-Mexican and anti-Arab (expressed as "anti-Muslim") rhetoric that Trump used/uses is more honestly defined as racism as a blanket term that includes also religious-ism, and that's what I saw flooding into the forum. Mark/Rahkit has done a great job of scientifically dispelling the notion that there are separate races - we're all Homo sapiens sapiens - but what I was seeing is what is typically known as "racism" in the US. I also think that overt and covert racism in the US, where I have spent 65 years, is quite a bit different than the racism in England where Bill spent his early childhood (though Bill did also live in South Africa, where racism was/is overt.)

So, make "racism", "culture-ism", and "religious-ism", and maybe other components of prejudice into 3 separate topics, or maybe just use "racism" as the umbrella? Or call it prejudice? I grew up and have spent my whole life in a deeply racist country, one with not only a history that includes slavery, but one in which the supreme legal document of the land, the US Constitution, literally codified racism (after having the balls to use the line, "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence.)

I don't see much value in attempting to pursue the topic by dissecting the semantics. Perhaps 100 million aboriginal tribal people (that we still insanely refer to as "Indians") were wiped off the face of the Earth by white-skinned Europeans/proto-"Americans"...and the NFL football team in the US capital - in the year 2020 - is called the "Redskins." That's pretty powerful racism.

Something on the order of 12 million Africans were kidnapped and rendered into slavery, about 10 million survived the slaver's conditions and the voyage, and maybe 1/2 a million ended up in the US, where slavery was legal until 1863. That's pretty powerful racism. Underpaid, slave-wage Chinese workers built the early US railroads. Japanese US citizens were thrown into prison camps in WW II. Yes, I realize that other ethnic groups, like the Irish and the Italian "white" people also suffered some slavery, wage-slavery, and codified prejudice, but again, it was at the hands of a group of white-skinned European descent people that self-declared themselves as superior, and became wealthy by exploiting all their declared inferiors, and gained governance power. White superiority was thus inculcated into US society, where it warped and morphed into multiple forms of off-the-books prejudice and called systemic racism and/or institutional racism, as well as the overt and covert racism expressed by individuals.

This isn't opinion - it's history, the real history of the USA.

I know that all Trump followers/supporters/cheerleaders are not racist, but those that are not racist do rationalize/excuse/ignore Trump's racism. It's not the only reason to abhor Trump as a person and as a president (oh dear god, don't compare Clinton to Trump as an excuse to support him - we're smarter than to fall for that binary claptrap) but I saw, in 2016-17, overt racism infecting Project Avalon, and wanted to stop it. In my mind, Project Avalon was never a place where lowbrows had a pulpit to spew racism/prejudice with a "first amendment" unfettered privilege, it was a place for people who were thinking outside the mainstream babble, people who saw deeper than their programming, and people breaking free from the programming - such as being ok with "acceptable" racism, ignoring systemic racism in the US, or excusing the US president's racism due to some perceived good thing that trumps Trump's racism

So, I guess I have breached this thread now. This is my opening volley.

[Mike]

welcome to the thread Denno, you're off to a crackling start.

i don't have an issue with a single thing you've written.

my issue is this: what happened at Evergreen, and what's happening on college campuses across the country, and what is spilling over into corporate culture as well (Google and the whole James Damore debacle) is a postmodern plague that isn't seeking authentic equity - it's seeking power....not power with but power over. It's seeking a reversal of the historic roles between oppressors and victims. Someone could make a pretty good karmic argument for that maybe - and I would have a hard time disputing it! - but what postmodernism attempts to do is make an intellectual argument for it, which to me is a disingenuous attempt at what is really a power-play masquerading as something else, all enforced by a hyper inflated sense of PC victimhood by people who aren't really victims at all, but instead future tyrants in the making

p.s. i really wish you'd watch the 3 videos i've included on this thread on the evergreen events. i watched your 3 hour marathon, so you owe me you bastard